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All national institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian or Turkish, appear to me no other than human inventions, set up to terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power and profit.
My answer is yes. God made us and found us good. He made plans for our salvation and redemption. As God found us deserving, I believe we should trust we are deserving--and act that way.
What is the scriptural support of this, pro and con?
Gods work in the 'creation' of the universe and man was good, and very good. Eternal plans for salvation indicate our need to be saved, not that we deserve to be saved.
If your saying we deserve to be saved because God created us, you must remember the angels. God created the angels also and they were perfect in their origin. Yet Lucifer and a host of angels rebelled against God. And no salvation is offered to them at all.
You say God found us deserving. Yet He says differently. " As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. There are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one." Rom.3:10-12
Do you see yourself in these verses? Is this one who is deserving?
Gods work in the 'creation' of the universe and man was good, and very good. Eternal plans for salvation indicate our need to be saved, not that we deserve to be saved.
If your saying we deserve to be saved because God created us, you must remember the angels. God created the angels also and they were perfect in their origin. Yet Lucifer and a host of angels rebelled against God. And no salvation is offered to them at all.
You say God found us deserving. Yet He says differently. " As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. There are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one." Rom.3:10-12
Do you see yourself in these verses? Is this one who is deserving?
Quantrill
What I look at is Jesus' life and his redemptive work for mankind. Next I look at my life, and because of the teaching, leadership, and redemptive ways of the cross, I see, not perfection or even goodness--but improvement. When I ask are we deserving, I am also addressing a question to us for our own consideration. What kind of investment return is God getting from me? From the world as a whole? Are we deserving of the investment made in us? What is our rate of return?
What I look at is Jesus' life and his redemptive work for mankind. Next I look at my life, and because of the teaching, leadership, and redemptive ways of the cross, I see, not perfection or even goodness--but improvement. When I ask are we deserving, I am also addressing a question to us for our own consideration. What kind of investment return is God getting from me? From the world as a whole? Are we deserving of the investment made in us? What is our rate of return?
Please, no more math. That last one, (which I got wrong) confused me for a couple of hours.
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Blessed are those who can give without remembering, and take without forgetting.
What I look at is Jesus' life and his redemptive work for mankind. Next I look at my life, and because of the teaching, leadership, and redemptive ways of the cross, I see, not perfection or even goodness--but improvement. When I ask are we deserving, I am also addressing a question to us for our own consideration. What kind of investment return is God getting from me? From the world as a whole? Are we deserving of the investment made in us? What is our rate of return?
This is not quite the same thing as first asked or answered. And Im not sure if you still believe you deserved to be saved in the first place. My position is that no one deserves to be saved, as was explained in Romans 3:10-12.
But, in response to what you did just say, I would say this. Of course we as Chrsitians want to walk worthy of our Lord. And there is always a growth of maturity and spirituality in our roller coaster experiences. Always a need for imporvement there.
However, as none were or are deserving of salvation, and yet God has saved some by His grace, He has done so to the degree that they are completely accepted and recieved by Him. Always.
God knows what He has gotten when He got us. This is why His work and way of salvation is the only one that will work. He is not the one surprised by our sins and failures as believers. Instead, its us who is surprised. He always knew it.
Yet, "For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified." Rom. 8:29-30
Those whom He has saved, He sees as already glorified also. That is a future standing before God. So, in our daily walk here, we can know that we are always accepted by Him. And that our failures and sins we commit as we grow as Christians do not hide God from us. Instead, He is always for us. "Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth. Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died..." Rom. 8:33-34.
Will any ever deserve such a salvation? Of course not. We will always be a picture of grace throughout eternity.
This is not quite the same thing as first asked or answered. And Im not sure if you still believe you deserved to be saved in the first place. My position is that no one deserves to be saved, as was explained in Romans 3:10-12.
But, in response to what you did just say, I would say this. Of course we as Chrsitians want to walk worthy of our Lord. And there is always a growth of maturity and spirituality in our roller coaster experiences. Always a need for imporvement there.
However, as none were or are deserving of salvation, and yet God has saved some by His grace, He has done so to the degree that they are completely accepted and recieved by Him. Always.
God knows what He has gotten when He got us. This is why His work and way of salvation is the only one that will work. He is not the one surprised by our sins and failures as believers. Instead, its us who is surprised. He always knew it.
Yet, "For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified." Rom. 8:29-30
Those whom He has saved, He sees as already glorified also. That is a future standing before God. So, in our daily walk here, we can know that we are always accepted by Him. And that our failures and sins we commit as we grow as Christians do not hide God from us. Instead, He is always for us. "Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth. Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died..." Rom. 8:33-34.
Will any ever deserve such a salvation? Of course not. We will always be a picture of grace throughout eternity.
Quantrill
I'll think about this while I'm walking this morning. There are good points in what you say. There are also a few I tend to disagree with. Let's see where I stand when I return.
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All national institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian or Turkish, appear to me no other than human inventions, set up to terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power and profit.
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