Was Adam condemned for wanting to do Godís will? - Page 5

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    Default Was Adam condemned for wanting to do Godís will?

    Was Adam condemned for wanting to do Godís will?

    Gen 1;28 And God blessed them; and God said unto them: 'Be fruitful, and multiply.

    Above we see Godís first and most important command to Adam.

    Reproduction, as you will know, has certain conditions that must be known and met before a person can accomplish that wonderful task. Knowledge of the functions of our bodies is absolutely needed before reproduction can take place. Desire in our minds, lust that is, must also exist for the good function of our reproductive system. That desire and the lust it produces is required to begin to initiate the sexual cycle that allows reproduction to take place. These conditions are subject to good and evil and so Adan had no knowledge or desire to reproduce as he did not have any knowledge of good and evil. Adam could not do Godís will and command to reproduce. As scriptures say, his eyes were not open.

    The only way Adam could follow Godís command was to open his eyes. The only way to open his eyes was to eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. When Adam recognized this and decided to do so, and gain the knowledge and desire to reproduce, God condemned Adam and Eve to death. This seems wrong to me as scriptures say that justice is close to an eye for an eye.

    Should God have condemned Adam to death for his desire to follow Godís first command and taking the steps required to do so?

    Christian and Catholic dogma seems conflicted on this issue as the hymn they sing of this issue says that Adams sin was a happy fault and necessary to Godís plan for man to reproduce.

    Knowing that what Adam did was necessary for Godís plan, was it an evil act for Adan to open his eyes so that he could gain the knowledge required to follow Godís first and most important command?

    Regards
    DL


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  3. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by Meriweather View Post
    Admittedly, his display of ignorance about faith not his own was entertaining the first time, but it has long since lost that endearing quality--as an old joke often does. Exception: George Carlin. I still find him funny!


    “Religion has actually convinced people that there's an invisible man living in the sky who watches everything you do, every minute of every day. And the invisible man has a special list of ten things he does not want you to do. And if you do any of these ten things, he has a special place, full of fire and smoke and burning and torture and anguish, where he will send you to live and suffer and burn and choke and scream and cry forever and ever 'til the end of time!

    But He loves you. He loves you, and He needs money! He always needs money! He's all-powerful, all-perfect, all-knowing, and all-wise, somehow just can't handle money!”
    .

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  5. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by One Male View Post
    Associating me non-genocidal loving person to a genocidal loving person, or people who follow a genocidal God, is an insult to me.

    If you cannot see that, then your judgment is defective.
    Once again, I did not do that. All I did was quote what you said. You said all of Christianity is built on lies. You made no qualifications or exceptions in that statement. All of Christianity. That is a pretty definitive statement. Then In that same post, I pointed out that you call yourself a Gnostic Christian. Now, either it was an oversight on your part in your first statement about all of Christianity, or you don't consider Gnostic Christians to be Christian. Which would mean you consider yourself to be a non-Christian Gnostic Christian. Seems rather convoluted to me, but meh, to each his own.

    Now what I find really interesting is your reaction to your perception of what I was saying in post 45. Because while I did not insult you, I did not compare Gnostic Christianity to Christianity, you HAVE insulted every Christian here. Now why is it ok for you to do so, but when you (mistakenly) think someone is insulting your beliefs you cry foul. That's rather hypocritical on your part.


    Quote Originally Posted by One Male View Post
    Get on O.P. topic or we are done.

    Regards
    DL
    Back on the OP, ok then. You still have not proven that eating from the tree of knowledge was required for Adam and Eve to reproduce. The lust that you talk about is a biochemical reaction in the brain. No fruit from the tree of knowledge needed. None of the other animals in the garden needed to eat from the tree to be able to reproduce, neither did Adam and Eve. You original post fails on flawed logic and wild assumptions.

    If you wish to come to a better understanding of the creation story in Genesis, perhaps you would do well to ask a knowledgeable Jew to explain it to you. After all, the story belongs to them. Not to Christians.
    Last edited by Koushi Shinigami; February 14th, 2018 at 4:44 pm.
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  7. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by optrader View Post
    I will probably regret asking, but what exactly IS your source of information?
    The bible Do you not recognize the story line?

    What do you think the bible is saying when it says that A & E's eyes were opened and they recognized that they were naked?

    Could they reproduce without knowing they were naked?

    Regards
    DL

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  9. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by One Male View Post
    What do you think the bible is saying when it says that A & E's eyes were opened and they recognized that they were naked?
    That prior to that eye-opening moment they knew they were naked but it hadn't occurred to them to cover the beauty of their bodies.

    Could they reproduce without knowing they were naked?
    Of course. They saw each other's "holes" and experimented, and found pleasure in what they were doing. Or perhaps they found the animals doing it first and learned from them.

    What Adam and Eve learned was not that they were naked, but that they were supposed to be ashamed for being naked.

    But I think Optrader's question was more along the lines of you explaining if you read up on this "Was Adam condemned for wanting to do God's will theory," or if it just came to you? What's the genesis of your version of this belief system?



    Regards
    DL[/QUOTE]
    "Let joy and innocence prevail."
    "Everyone's important to somebody."
    "Sticks and stones may break bones, but words can break hearts."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Koushi Shinigami View Post

    you HAVE insulted every Christian here. Now why is it ok for you to do so, but when you (mistakenly) think someone is insulting your beliefs you cry foul. That's rather hypocritical on your part.

    .
    Not when I gave the reason.



    If someone here started taking of their love for those who used genocide, like Hitler, Stalin etc., would you praise them and their view or are you more likely to disrespect them and their view?

    Now would you do or say the same to those who praise the genocidal son murdering Yahweh.

    Regards
    DL

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  13. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by Koushi Shinigami View Post

    Back on the OP, ok then. You still have not proven that eating from the tree of knowledge was required for Adam and Eve to reproduce. The lust that you talk about is a biochemical reaction in the brain. No fruit from the tree of knowledge needed. None of the other animals in the garden needed to eat from the tree to be able to reproduce, neither did Adam and Eve. You original post fails on flawed logic and wild assumptions.

    If you wish to come to a better understanding of the creation story in Genesis, perhaps you would do well to ask a knowledgeable Jew to explain it to you. After all, the story belongs to them. Not to Christians.
    Correct, and they see it as man's elevation and not the fall that Christianity stupidly put on it.

    As to our lust and biochemical reactions, what do you think triggers them if not our thinking of the good sex coming up?

    Note the word good.

    Did A & E know of anything that had good or evil aspects to them?

    No. Not till Gen 3.

    I asked a couple of questions on having A & E's eyes being opened.

    Please reply to those as well if you like. They speak to the same issue.

    Regards
    DL

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  15. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alex McAlpine View Post
    That prior to that eye-opening moment they knew they were naked but it hadn't occurred to them to cover the beauty of their bodies.



    Of course. They saw each other's "holes" and experimented, and found pleasure in what they were doing. Or perhaps they found the animals doing it first and learned from them.

    What Adam and Eve learned was not that they were naked, but that they were supposed to be ashamed for being naked.

    But I think Optrader's question was more along the lines of you explaining if you read up on this "Was Adam condemned for wanting to do God's will theory," or if it just came to you? What's the genesis of your version of this belief system?



    Regards
    DL
    [/QUOTE]

    What triggered my thinking was the Exusltet hymn that called Adams sin a happy fault and necessary sin.

    ďit hadn't occurred to them to cover the beauty of their bodies.Ē

    Not surprising as beauty is usually good, not always as it has evil aspects to some, and thus A &b E, not knowing of anything that is subject to good and evil could not have made the value judgement of calling their bodies beautiful.

    ďThey saw each other's "holes" and experimented, and found pleasureĒ

    Pleasures are also subject to good and evil and they could not make that call for the same reason as pleasures are also subject to good and evil.



    Please forgive how I quoted you but this system is acting poorly today.


    Regards

    DL

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  17. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by One Male View Post
    The bible Do you not recognize the story line?

    What do you think the bible is saying when it says that A & E's eyes were opened and they recognized that they were naked?

    Could they reproduce without knowing they were naked?

    Regards
    DL
    First, the Bible is God's word to Christians, to non-Christians it is, for the most part gibberish. I've never understood why non-Christians care so much what Christians believe. It is a book of truth factually, historically, and most importantly spiritually. Your conclusions are flawed. One thing A &E lost in addition to immortality was their innocence. Consider children: when they are born, mother and father change their diapers and bathe them. As young children their nakedness in front of their parents doesn't bother them, but at some point, children become embarrassed by being naked, especially in front of the parent of the opposite sex. Why? Who tells the children they are naked? Where is the sin. Would you say their " eyes are opened?"

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  19. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by optrader View Post
    I've never understood why non-Christians care so much what Christians believe.
    It's not a question of caring "so much" - it's a question of people being naturally curious about a variety of subjects, and in this case, trying to learn about people's belief systems.

    Especially since you speak of the monolithic "Christian" when actually Christianity, like every other religion, has its own sects, each one believing something different (as is evident in my thread "How do you expect to get to heaven?"

    Speaking for myself, I'm just fascinated with how people choose their own personal belief system - why someone becomes a Baptist rather than a Catholic or a Protestant, etc What is the attraction in each sect that draws someone of what kind of personality to that sect?
    "Let joy and innocence prevail."
    "Everyone's important to somebody."
    "Sticks and stones may break bones, but words can break hearts."

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  21. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by optrader View Post
    First, the Bible is God's word to Christians, (snip)
    No. The first section of the Bible, the one Christians call the Old Testament, is a flawed copy of God's word to Jews.


    Quote Originally Posted by optrader View Post
    It is a book of truth factually, historically, (snip)

    No. It isn't.


    Quote Originally Posted by optrader View Post
    and most importantly spiritually. (snip)

    That is all it is.



    Quote Originally Posted by optrader View Post
    Your conclusions are flawed. One thing A &E lost in addition to immortality (snip)

    Actually, you are wrong again.

    Gen 3:22 And the Lord God said, “The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever.”

    This passage indicates that Adam and Eve could BECOME immortal if they ate from the tree of life. If they needed to eat from that tree first, then they were not immortal. What the did lose was the OPPORTUNITY to be immortal. They did not lose something they already had.
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  23. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by One Male View Post
    Not when I gave the reason.(snip)
    Yes you did. And I explained myself. You disagreed with my explanation, and were insulted by my post. I'm sure the Christians here dismissed your explanation as being wrong and were insulted by what you said. I believe that was your intent. Once again, insulting others while crying foul when you thing you've been insulted is an act of hypocrisy.


    Quote Originally Posted by One Male View Post
    If someone here started taking of their love for those who used genocide, like Hitler, Stalin etc., would you praise them and their view or are you more likely to disrespect them and their view?(snip)
    Use of Godwin's law noted.


    Quote Originally Posted by One Male View Post
    Now would you do or say the same to those who praise the genocidal (snip)

    You will have to ask the Jews about that part.



    Quote Originally Posted by One Male View Post
    son murdering Yahweh. (snip)

    Actually, God didn't murder His son. The Romans did that.












    Quote Originally Posted by One Male View Post
    Correct, and they see it as man's elevation and not the fall that Christianity stupidly put on it.
    Yes. It is a different way of looking at the story.

    Quote Originally Posted by One Male View Post
    As to our lust and biochemical reactions, what do you think triggers them (snip)
    Instinct and evolution.
    .

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  25. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by optrader View Post
    First, the Bible is God's word to Christians, to non-Christians it is, for the most part gibberish. I've never understood why non-Christians care so much what Christians believe. It is a book of truth factually, historically, and most importantly spiritually. Your conclusions are flawed. One thing A &E lost in addition to immortality was their innocence. Consider children: when they are born, mother and father change their diapers and bathe them. As young children their nakedness in front of their parents doesn't bother them, but at some point, children become embarrassed by being naked, especially in front of the parent of the opposite sex. Why? Who tells the children they are naked? Where is the sin. Would you say their " eyes are opened?"
    You are quite the deluded literal reader of a myth.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7mRYiplTf3I

    My grandson whips it out in front of grandma.
    His mental eyes have yet to be opened and he knows nothing of reproduction.

    If you continue to read your myth as history and that talking serpents are real, you might want to ignore me.

    Regards
    DL

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  27. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by optrader View Post
    I've never understood why non-Christians care so much what Christians believe."
    Think like one of the many who have died at the hands of inquisitors because of those immoral Christian beliefs.

    Both Christianity and Islam, slave holding ideologies, have basically developed into intolerant, homophobic and misogynous religions. Both religions have grown themselves by the sword instead of good deeds and continue with their immoral ways in spite of secular law showing them the moral ways.

    Jesus said we would know his people by their works and deeds. That means Jesus would not recognize Christians and Muslims as his people, and neither do I. Jesus would call Christianity and Islam abominations.

    Gnostic Christians did in the past, and I am proudly continuing that tradition and honest irrefutable evaluation based on morality.

    https://topdocumentaryfilms.com/theft-values/

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZxoxPapPxXk

    Humanity centered religions, good. Yes.

    Supernaturally based religions, evil? Yes.

    Do you agree?



    Regards
    DL


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  29. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by Koushi Shinigami View Post


    Instinct and evolution.
    So you do not think when you, do sex?

    Everything our bodies and instincts do is first processed by our minds.

    Actually, God didn't murder His son. The Romans did that.
    Obviously, if God preordained that Jesus would die, he would also have to make sure someone killed him.

    Regards
    DL

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  31. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by Koushi Shinigami View Post
    No. The first section of the Bible, the one Christians call the Old Testament, is a flawed copy of God's word to Jews.
    It is not flawed, and I know you are aware that the Jews didn't have all the OT books, let alone the NT books of the Christian Bible. As I said, The BIBLE was given for Christians, not Jews, Muslims or anyone else who doesn't believe. BTW, the Jews are called God's chosen people. What do you believe they were " Chosen" for?


    No. It isn't.

    That is all it is.
    Your opinion is duly noted...


    Actually, you are wrong again.

    Gen 3:22 And the Lord God said, “The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever.”

    This passage indicates that Adam and Eve could BECOME immortal if they ate from the tree of life. If they needed to eat from that tree first, then they were not immortal. What the did lose was the OPPORTUNITY to be immortal. They did not lose something they already had.
    Yes, and this is a point I am well aware of. Scripture also indicates we will be eating and drinking in Heaven too, perhaps of the tree of life as well. So technically, I agree with you, but my point was that nothing on earth, not man, beast, disease, accident disaster or age--. ABSOLUTELY NOTHING could cause them to die except the direct hand of God. From a human perspective, they would be immortal. Sometimes you split hairs unnecessarily...
    Last edited by optrader; February 15th, 2018 at 12:14 pm.

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