Is it the role of our government to run the country like a charity? - Page 9

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  1. #1

    Default Is it the role of our government to run the country like a charity?

    This really seems to be the real question to ask regarding the immigration debate. Listening to Democrats this seems to be their philosophy on how government should shape immigration policy. While many citizens of this country believe that immigration policy should be merit based and be in our best interests. So is it the role of government to run the country (with a 20 trillion dollar debt) like a charity?

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  4. #121
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    Quote Originally Posted by MarkyS View Post
    So, we are supposed to have 21st century national policy based on 19th century poetry?


    Brilliant!


    And the Statue of Liberty celebrates giving people without it liberty - not welfare



    M
    Our country is based on 17th century philosophy. You know the difference between philosophy and poetry?

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    Quote Originally Posted by FreeAndClear View Post
    Keep reading. Reactionaries are boring


    What is the statue called? The Statue of Charity? The Statue of Welfare? The Statue of Dependency?


    Even the poem welcomes people yearning to BREATHE FREE - not yearning to be taken care of. Her name is the Mother of Exiles - not the Mother of Dependents. Nothing in the poem says "if you are able to take care of yourself we're not for you!" OR "Come on in and we will take care of all your needs"

    America is the Land of Opportunity, where one is free to take care of themselves and that's what we feature - Freedom - not the Land of the Expected Perpetual Handouts.



    M
    "WE KNOW the attack in Libya had nothing to do with the film. It was a planned attack, not a protest." - Hillary Clinton, September 12th, 2012

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  9. #123
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    Quote Originally Posted by FreeAndClear View Post
    Our country is based on 17th century philosophy. You know the difference between philosophy and poetry?
    And yet you used part of a 19th century poem to make your point.



    M
    Last edited by MarkyS; January 14th, 2018 at 12:20 am.
    "WE KNOW the attack in Libya had nothing to do with the film. It was a planned attack, not a protest." - Hillary Clinton, September 12th, 2012

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  11. #124
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    Quote Originally Posted by MarkyS View Post
    And yet you used part of a 19th century poem to make you point.



    M
    Oh boy

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  13. #125
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    Quote Originally Posted by MarkyS View Post
    What is the statue called? The Statue of Charity? The Statue of Welfare? The Statue of Dependency?


    Even the poem welcomes people yearning to BREATHE FREE - not yearning to be taken care of. Her name is the Mother of Exiles - not the Mother of Dependents. Nothing in the poem says "if you are able to take care of yourself we're not for you!" OR "Come on in and we will take care of all your needs"

    America is the Land of Opportunity, where one is free to take care of themselves and that's what we feature - Freedom - not the Land of the Expected Perpetual Handouts.



    M
    Thatís some interesting rhetoric Mark. Did you wrap yourself in a flag while you typed that?

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  15. #126
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    Quote Originally Posted by FreeAndClear View Post
    That’s some interesting rhetoric Mark. Did you wrap yourself in a flag while you typed that?

    I can't help you if all you have to do is comment on me. If you have something else to offer in the way of conversation, feel free.



    M
    "WE KNOW the attack in Libya had nothing to do with the film. It was a planned attack, not a protest." - Hillary Clinton, September 12th, 2012

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  17. #127

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cassandra Joe View Post
    If a country is a Democracy, then YES. It is ABSOLUTELY the role of government to run the Country like a charity.

    The question is, who are the beneficiaries?



    Conservative forget that the United States is a Country of almost exclusively immigrants and immigrants' decendents (excepting the few remaining Native Americans left). Even if, like me, you can trace your ancestors back to the Declaration of Independence, the Fathers and Grandfathers of those Signers came from elsewhere.

    But now, we say that immigrants have become an invasion force that threatens our "American" Heritage and we must engage in near-military isolationism to stop the dilution of American culture.

    A Democracy should be run like a Charity, and the beneficiaries of that charity are its own citizens, not the citizens of other countries....BUT...

    - The overwhelming majority of immigrants to the U.S. build small businesses. They open restaurants, hotels, clean houses, become Auto mechanics, create software companies, build Medical practices, and many, many other businesses. They value education in a way that native-born Americans have forgotten and despise. The businesses they create provide jobs for other Americans.

    - Many immigrants are lured here by American-owned companies to provide technical expertise that is unavailable (expensive) locally. Those immigrants help those companies remain competitive and profitable, allowing them to provide jobs, pay taxes, and export products world-wide.

    - Foreign Aid assists diplomacy and softens animosity between the U.S. and the rest of the Nations of the World. Were we not so generous, we might well have more Foreign citizens flying airplanes into our skyscrapers. What contributes more to the Federal budget deficit - Foreign Aid or War?

    - Helping other countries build their own stable governments that meet the needs of THEIR citizens, so they have less desire to come to this country. That's part of the reason we don't have more immigrants from Norway. Norwegians LIKE Norway.

    - Government should (and does, kind of) look at how immigration can assist American citizens. There's a lot of disagreement on how to accomplish that. But ethnic or cultural purity shouldn't be part of the discussion.
    I always appreciate your posts as they are often articulate and well thought out, although I'm not sure the picture is a rosey as you portray it. Yes most of the new immigrants I have met throughout my experience are (ostensibly - How well does any of us truly know someone else?) decent people, but I can say the same about most native born Americans as well. As someone who has grown up in an inner city and who still has friends/family there, I can also speak of negative experiences with new immigrants as well. I know of a number of anecdotal accounts of peoples occupations being negatively impacted by immigration. There is also a segment of the new immigrant population involved with drugs, gangs, etc. There is also an economic cost that is associated with immigration:

    https://cis.org/Report/Welfare-Use-I...ive-Households


    Furthermore, as you may recall I live in one of those high tax states, and as you pointed out population density is one of the reasons for those high taxes. Immigration logically must play some role in that. Also on an anecdotal level I can tell you that trying to get an appointment with a pediatric Doctor in places like NY city and certain parts of NJ takes months. New immigrants have more kids than native born. Now let me be clear I'm not griping just trying to point out that it is not all peaches and cream as how I interpret your post. One last thing, I think the efficacy of Foreign Aid is very debatable.

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  19. #128

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    Quote Originally Posted by zantax View Post
    Pretty much the essence of the difference between conservatives and progressives. Progressives think the role of government is charity.
    Well I guess it is always easy to charitable when its not your money or your neighborhood.

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  21. #129
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    Quote Originally Posted by MarkyS View Post
    I can't help you if all you have to do is comment on me. If you have something else to offer in the way of conversation, feel free.



    M
    I just addressed your rhetoric. Itís yours. You have original thought, i have addressed it in the past. What you just now is nothing but rhetoric imo, i donít want to address it because itís hsrd to discuss the pledge of allegiance with those who are simply repeating It without understanding why

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  23. #130
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eagle Keeper View Post
    Well I guess it is always easy to charitable when its not your money or your neighborhood.
    Itís both. I donít live in Vermont. Now what

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  25. #131

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    Quote Originally Posted by FreeAndClear View Post
    Itís both. I donít live in Vermont. Now what
    I don't know what your point is, sorry.

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  27. #132
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eagle Keeper View Post
    I don't know what your point is, sorry.
    Sorry. I am being a pedant. My point is the fact that it is my money and my neighborhood and i donít mind my government spending it.


    Btw just FYI i have a problem with my side of the aisle comparing about paying more taxes due to the tax bill because it is counterintuitive but i all have a problem with anyone who thinks itís primarily beneficial to everyone rather than to a certain group of taxpayers

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  29. #133
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    Quote Originally Posted by FreeAndClear View Post
    I just addressed your rhetoric. It’s yours. You have original thought, i have addressed it in the past. What you just now is nothing but rhetoric imo, i don’t want to address it because it’s hsrd to discuss the pledge of allegiance with those who are simply repeating It without understanding why
    What I gave you is my original thought. That others have had similar thoughts over centuries doesn't change that. You want to argue the POINTS of what I said I'm happy to.

    You just want to label, it rhetoric, then you're wasting my time.

    And this has nothing to do with the Pledge of Allegiance. We were discussing "The New Colossus" and how it should or should not guide immigration policy.


    M
    "WE KNOW the attack in Libya had nothing to do with the film. It was a planned attack, not a protest." - Hillary Clinton, September 12th, 2012

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  31. #134
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cassandra Joe View Post
    Define "Democratic Republic".
    This describes it pretty well.
    The United States of America is a type of Democracy [not a pure direct democracy, as is the classical meaning of the term, but a mixed-Republic with a representative democracy and democratic spirit].
    But I would be more specific, and state that we are a "constitutionally limited, representative, democratic republic".

    * all lower case on purpose *

    The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people are so full of doubts. -Bertrand Russell

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  33. #135
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sneaky SF Dude View Post
    The United States is a republic and guarantees a Republican form of government to each state.

    It has nothing to do with how you pick your masters.
    I do not have masters, either real, or imagined.

    And many states do operate as a direct democracy, pertaining to laws, using the proposition process.

    The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people are so full of doubts. -Bertrand Russell

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