The politics of “Christian” church, and should we tax them?

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    Default The politics of “Christian” church, and should we tax them?



    The “Christian” church is built upon Peter and Paul. As for Paul, he was all things to all men, a Gentile to the Gentiles, and a Pharisee of Pharisees to the Jew. Somewhat like a politician, he spoke the words he thought would save the unwashed plebeians, or in our culture, the “deplorables”. Like politicians, Paul was about collecting money, and his programmed time for collecting was on the first day of the week. 1 Corinthians 16:1-2 The collection was supposedly for Jerusalem, but as Paul had 40 guys in Jerusalem who had vowed to slay him, I am thinking he never returned to Jerusalem. It would be hard to get the same 470 Roman soldiers to protect him, as when he escaped in the first place. As for Paul’s politics, Paul didn’t actually promise a chicken in every pot, like most politicians, but he did promise “you surely shall not die”, and be twinkled, if you just follow me. Just nail the truth, the Law and the prophets, and common sense to some pagan symbol, which in this case was the cross, and subsequently, “we” will live. (1 Corinthians 15:52)

    On the other hand, Peter has passed his torch to the pope, whose church owns high end property in the amount of 177 million acres, with its own country, the Vatican, and its own army. He also collects his proceeds, as Paul, on the first day of the week, the day of the sun, in honor of Sol Invictus, the god of Constantine, the institutor of the Roman church. The pope tries to speak what his kind of people want to hear, but the agenda he is pushing, is from a left progressive viewpoint, save the world point of view from the point of view of a socialist. Of course his “global warming” point of view is a sham, and it only contributes to the poor becoming poorer. The 33,000 Protestant organizations are extremely wealthy, but are separate entities, which dilutes their individual portfolios.
    http://churchandstate.org.uk/2016/06/the-10-richest-religions-in-the-world/
    http://www.businessinsider.com/worlds-biggest-landowners-2011-3/#pope-benedict-13


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    Quote Originally Posted by 2ndpillar View Post

    The “Christian” church is built upon Peter and Paul. As for Paul, he was all things to all men, a Gentile to the Gentiles, and a Pharisee of Pharisees to the Jew. Somewhat like a politician, he spoke the words he thought would save the unwashed plebeians, or in our culture, the “deplorables”. Like politicians, Paul was about collecting money, and his programmed time for collecting was on the first day of the week. 1 Corinthians 16:1-2 The collection was supposedly for Jerusalem, but as Paul had 40 guys in Jerusalem who had vowed to slay him, I am thinking he never returned to Jerusalem. It would be hard to get the same 470 Roman soldiers to protect him, as when he escaped in the first place. As for Paul’s politics, Paul didn’t actually promise a chicken in every pot, like most politicians, but he did promise “you surely shall not die”, and be twinkled, if you just follow me. Just nail the truth, the Law and the prophets, and common sense to some pagan symbol, which in this case was the cross, and subsequently, “we” will live. (1 Corinthians 15:52)

    On the other hand, Peter has passed his torch to the pope, whose church owns high end property in the amount of 177 million acres, with its own country, the Vatican, and its own army. He also collects his proceeds, as Paul, on the first day of the week, the day of the sun, in honor of Sol Invictus, the god of Constantine, the institutor of the Roman church. The pope tries to speak what his kind of people want to hear, but the agenda he is pushing, is from a left progressive viewpoint, save the world point of view from the point of view of a socialist. Of course his “global warming” point of view is a sham, and it only contributes to the poor becoming poorer. The 33,000 Protestant organizations are extremely wealthy, but are separate entities, which dilutes their individual portfolios.
    http://churchandstate.org.uk/2016/06/the-10-richest-religions-in-the-world/
    http://www.businessinsider.com/worlds-biggest-landowners-2011-3/#pope-benedict-13
    2nd Pillar - please share the facts about your belief. And is this a sect that lots of people belong to? If so, do they have a website where all these things you bring up are talked about?
    "Let joy and innocence prevail."
    "Everyone's important to somebody."

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    Quote Originally Posted by 2ndpillar View Post

    The “Christian” church is built upon Peter and Paul. As for Paul, he was all things to all men, a Gentile to the Gentiles, and a Pharisee of Pharisees to the Jew. Somewhat like a politician, he spoke the words he thought would save the unwashed plebeians, or in our culture, the “deplorables”. Like politicians, Paul was about collecting money, and his programmed time for collecting was on the first day of the week. 1 Corinthians 16:1-2 The collection was supposedly for Jerusalem, but as Paul had 40 guys in Jerusalem who had vowed to slay him, I am thinking he never returned to Jerusalem. It would be hard to get the same 470 Roman soldiers to protect him, as when he escaped in the first place. As for Paul’s politics, Paul didn’t actually promise a chicken in every pot, like most politicians, but he did promise “you surely shall not die”, and be twinkled, if you just follow me. Just nail the truth, the Law and the prophets, and common sense to some pagan symbol, which in this case was the cross, and subsequently, “we” will live. (1 Corinthians 15:52)

    On the other hand, Peter has passed his torch to the pope, whose church owns high end property in the amount of 177 million acres, with its own country, the Vatican, and its own army. He also collects his proceeds, as Paul, on the first day of the week, the day of the sun, in honor of Sol Invictus, the god of Constantine, the institutor of the Roman church. The pope tries to speak what his kind of people want to hear, but the agenda he is pushing, is from a left progressive viewpoint, save the world point of view from the point of view of a socialist. Of course his “global warming” point of view is a sham, and it only contributes to the poor becoming poorer. The 33,000 Protestant organizations are extremely wealthy, but are separate entities, which dilutes their individual portfolios.
    http://churchandstate.org.uk/2016/06/the-10-richest-religions-in-the-world/
    http://www.businessinsider.com/worlds-biggest-landowners-2011-3/#pope-benedict-13
    More LIES from 2ndpillar.

    Now about the collection for the Lord’s people: Do what I told the Galatian churches to do. On the first day of every week, each one of you should set aside a sum of money in keeping with your income, saving it up, so that when I come no collections will have to be made.

    Then, when I arrive, I will give letters of introduction to the men you approve and send them with your gift to Jerusalem. If it seems advisable for me to go also, they will accompany me. 1 Corinthians 16

    We learn that the collection is already in progress among the gentile churches and that gentile church representatives will carry the funds to Jerusalem. We learn the names of some of these representatives in Acts 20: ‘Sopater son of Pyrrhus from Berea, Aristarchus and Secundus from Thessalonica, Gaius from Derbe, Timothy also, and Tychicus and Trophimus from the province of Asia.’


    As can be seen above, it was not Paul who took the offerings to Jerusalem, but rather representatives approved by the Gentile churches. But of course, once again, 2ndpillar ignores the facts.
    https://jesuswithoutbaggage.wordpress.com/2016/11/07/does-paul-tell-us-to-bring-our-tithes-to-church-on-sundays-he-does-not/
    The great enemy of truth is not so much the lie (deliberate, contrived and dishonest) but the myth (persistent, persuasive and unrealistic).

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    The whole premise of the OP is out of whack.

    The Church was established on Jesus Christ not Peter or Paul the Church did grow under the teachings of Peter and Paul but it was already established upon the Lord. The growth of the Church was their mandate from the Lord to GO, Teach, Baptize, & Teach so they did what they were instructed to do from their Lord and Master.

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    The church, political or otherwise is ABSOLUTELY a non profit. No investors receive dividends nor increased stock value based on sales, income etc.. No person works on commission based on sales or income etc.. As such it is every bit as nonprofit as state owned or private non profit universities, the Sierra Club, and labor unions.

    That, (the above) is 100% true and frankly, I suspect anyone who does not see that immediately probably has some sort of anti-church bigot-axe to grind. (History shows that such bigots have always been with us.)


    HOWEVER., Churches enjoy a special tax status, not shared witj anyone except government. Churches are also exempt from paying PROPERTY taxed. I am not sure what to make of THAT special rad status, but I am pretty sure it is hiw the authors of the 1st Amendment interpreted the 1st Amendment.
    Where in the heck am I?

    Maybe I should have asked for directions.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gaius View Post
    The church, political or otherwise is ABSOLUTELY a non profit. No investors receive dividends nor increased stock value based on sales, income etc.. No person works on commission based on sales or income etc.. As such it is every bit as nonprofit as state owned or private non profit universities, the Sierra Club, and labor unions.

    That, (the above) is 100% true and frankly, I suspect anyone who does not see that immediately probably has some sort of anti-church bigot-axe to grind. (History shows that such bigots have always been with us.)


    HOWEVER., Churches enjoy a special tax status, not shared witj anyone except government. Churches are also exempt from paying PROPERTY taxed. I am not sure what to make of THAT special rad status, but I am pretty sure it is hiw the authors of the 1st Amendment interpreted the 1st Amendment.
    The 1st amendment was written in the 18th century. The income tax 16th Amendment was questionably ratified in the 1930s. As for churches being a non-profit, the clergy in generally are making sizable incomes. I read that a Texas TV preacher, besides his jet, and lavish properties, was worth 138 million dollars. The cashier in the grocery store down the street is making $12/hour, deep in debt, and is not making a profit, and is paying social security and funding the payment of property taxes thru rent payments she cannot afford. The Catholic Church has 177 million acres they could be paying taxes on. As for the Unions, and non profits, such a Hillary and Bill Clinton charities, they are in general, criminal organization in deeds. No special considerations should be given. As for churches, AmendmentI. Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion Not paying taxes seems like the churches are given special treatment.

    7. Televangelism
    Televangelism is not exactly a religion but rather, it is an element of Christianity where believers are addressed by a minister through television broadcasts. It also adheres to Christian principles, but it focuses on personal morality as viewed by preachers. Televangelism relies mainly on advertisements, donations and merchandise; all these are done free of tax. Television evangelists are known to live a luxurious life, building expensive homes and traveling by private jets. Put together, it is estimated to be a $2.3 billion business. http://churchandstate.org.uk/2016/06...-in-the-world/
    Last edited by 2ndpillar; January 10th, 2018 at 10:14 am.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 2ndpillar View Post
    The 1st amendment was written in the 18th century. The income tax 16th Amendment was questionably ratified in the 1930s. As for churches being a non-profit, the clergy in generally are making sizable incomes. I read that a Texas TV preacher, besides his jet, and lavish properties, was worth 138 million dollars. The cashier in the grocery store down the street is making $12/hour, deep in debt, and is not making a profit, and is paying social security and funding the payment of property taxes thru rent payments she cannot afford. The Catholic Church has 177 million acres they could be paying taxes on. As for the Unions, and non profits, such a Hillary and Bill Clinton charities, they are in general, criminal organization in deeds. No special considerations should be given. As for churches, AmendmentI. Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion Not paying taxes seems like the churches are given special treatment.

    7. Televangelism
    Televangelism is not exactly a religion but rather, it is an element of Christianity where believers are addressed by a minister through television broadcasts. It also adheres to Christian principles, but it focuses on personal morality as viewed by preachers. Televangelism relies mainly on advertisements, donations and merchandise; all these are done free of tax. Television evangelists are known to live a luxurious life, building expensive homes and traveling by private jets. Put together, it is estimated to be a $2.3 billion business. http://churchandstate.org.uk/2016/06...-in-the-world/
    Lots of non profit hospitals PAY their doctors a salary. The ACLU pays its staff. The Sierra Club also (gasp)pays its staff. Universities pay their profoessirs, their secretaries their plumbers.

    Only when it comes to churches to people (I suspect them of being bigots) suddenly forget that fact and become so supremely stupud as to claim that paying an employee means that the entire operation is a for profit operation.

    Who gets the profits from Harvard? They own a lot of property, pay the cafeteria ladies and have not just a tv show (like a televangelist) but a tv station, several radio stations, abd several publications. (Barack Obama once held a paid position at the Harvard Law review.)

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    G wrote (in green): Who gets the profits from Harvard? They own a lot of property, pay the cafeteria ladies and have not just a tv show (like a televangelist) but a tv station, several radio stations, abd several publications. (Barack Obama once held a paid position at the Harvard Law review.)

    My response (in black): I am not sure I get your point. The Church related Harvard is a Progressive Liberal mill, and the ACLU is a bunch of Progressive Liberal shills. Why should the government of the people, support such nonsense by giving special tax status? As for doctors getting paid by church or non church non profits, that salary would be a deduction in any profit hospital as well. As for the Sierra Club, let their Hollywood sponsors pay the full bill. They don’t represent “all the people”. Let the Churches pay their property taxes, for which property was probably donated by widows to get their dead husbands and themselves into heaven. A notion known as indulgences, a practice not stopped by Luther, but is still non-the-less, a scam.


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    My analogy of this post; We should tax anytime a person breaths in air. Any time a person blinks their eyes we should tax them. Any time a person thinks we should tax them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by KnowThyself View Post
    My analogy of this post; We should tax anytime a person breaths in air. Any time a person blinks their eyes we should tax them. Any time a person thinks we should tax them.
    However it is done, it should be done fairly. In the case of the Churches, the taxation Amendment of the Constitution excludes special status for Churches.


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    When I worked for Amnesty International (as a summer intern) some of the interns and all of the professional staff, received a salary. (Just like in the church.)

    All of those salaries were taxed (just like in the church.)

    In at least one year, donations etc. exceeded expenses. Just like in the church there was no requirement to lose money every year. Just like in the church there was ni requirement to break even to the penny.

    Over time those years in the the black added up and, just like the church, Amnesty International was able to buy property, sometimes for cash, sometimes via a mortgage.

    What NEVER happened was that in years when income exceeded expenses the 'profit' was never given to those who invested their money to start Amnesty International, their heirs, or their assigns. Because just like in the church there were no investors.

    Each year when income exceeded assets those retained earnings were retained for the future use by Amnesty International...... just like the church does.
    .
    .
    .
    But we Christians are accustomed to being hated. Haters are gonna hate. Since the earliest days of the Church, since the immediate post-Christ days people have hunted us down and/or singled us out for mistreatment.

    America was founded for the very purpose of ending such hatred and discrimination. Yet in some people
    that hatred,
    that prejuduce,
    that ignorance
    that same unadulteratedbigotry
    runs so strong today that they reject Ameriva, reject American freedom and continue today to seek ways to single out the church treating it as though it us singularly different than any other nonprofit.

    I see a lot of that in the notion that the Church should he taxed.
    Where in the heck am I?

    Maybe I should have asked for directions.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gaius View Post
    Since the earliest days of the Church, since the immediate post-Christ days people have hunted us down and/or singled us out for mistreatment.
    When you refer to the Church, are you referring to the Catholic Church?

    Christians were fed to the lions by the Romans, but once Christianity took hold, it was the pantheists and believers in other gods who ironically were persecuted by the Christians.

    Spanish Inquisition, etc.

    America was founded for the very purpose of ending such hatred and discrimination.
    Are you referring to the people who were tired of paying taxes to the King of England and wanted to keep more of their hard-earned money? I don't think they were fighting against atheists trying to force them to give up the Christian religion.

    Yet in some people
    that hatred,
    that prejuduce,
    that ignorance
    that same unadulterated bigotry
    runs so strong today that they reject Ameriva,
    Some fools may reject the American political ideal, but I don't think they reject America based on its idea of freedom of religion.

    reject American freedom
    Which American freedoms are they rejecting?

    and continue today to seek ways to single out the church treating it as though it us singularly different than any other nonprofit.
    So the Church is just a business?

    I see a lot of that in the notion that the Church should he taxed.
    Perhaps people are confusing the non-profit Church with the extremely wealthy televangelists, and the idiots who continue to give them money. Although if idiots want to give away their hard-earned money so some fool can buy a jet to fly around in, or a second home in Hawaii, I suppose they should have that right.
    "Let joy and innocence prevail."
    "Everyone's important to somebody."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alex McAlpine View Post
    When you refer to the Church, are you referring to the Catholic Church?

    Christians were fed to the lions by the Romans, but once Christianity took hold, it was the pantheists and believers in other gods who ironically were persecuted by the Christians.

    Spanish Inquisition, etc.



    Are you referring to the people who were tired of paying taxes to the King of England and wanted to keep more of their hard-earned money? I don't think they were fighting against atheists trying to force them to give up the Christian religion.



    Some fools may reject the American political ideal, but I don't think they reject America based on its idea of freedom of religion.



    Which American freedoms are they rejecting?



    So the Church is just a business?



    Perhaps people are confusing the non-profit Church with the extremely wealthy televangelists, and the idiots who continue to give them money. Although if idiots want to give away their hard-earned money so some fool can buy a jet to fly around in, or a second home in Hawaii, I suppose they should have that right.

    From the LA Times:

    http://www.latimes.com/business/la-f...story,amp.html

    ***QUOTE***
    34 top charity execs earn $1 million or more

    The Chronicle of Philanthropy's annual executive compensation study, released Tuesday, said 34 of the top execs of some of the nation's biggest charities and foundations made $1 million or more in 2012.

    ...Brian Gallagher, president of United Way Worldwide, ... received $520,043 in salary, a $180,657 bonus, $470,801 in deferred payments and $48,804 in other payments

    ...According to ChiefExecutive.net, the median total compensation package of a private, for-profit company chief executive in 2011 was $362,900.
    ****END QUOTE****

    So, someone with zero understanding (ignorance) of the actual salaries of actual heads of non profits

    Uses bigotoed negative stereotypes to ASSUME that televangelists are rich.

    That same ignorance ignores the fact that the salaries, both salaries, are already taxed, and in an ignorant manner dripping with scorn for organized religion, recommends that the church itself be taxed.

    Ignorance and bigotry DO seem to go hand in hand don't they?

    We Christians have seen it before. We and our churches have been the subject of such persecution since oyr earliest days. Americas founders having witnessed that such can also take life in tax policy gave the same non profit status to churches it gave to orphanages poor houses etc.. But in some people their hatred runs very jigh so they reject the precepts if Amerocas founders and wish, as the 'enlightened' monarchs of old did, to tax the churches on their non existent imaginary profits.

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    I *IMAGINE* the exec of the ACLU is paid a lot.

    I *IMAGINE* he gets his salary tax free.

    Therefore I become righteously indignant and demand he be taxed and demand all liberal grouos be taxed on whatever imaginary profits I imagine they make.


    Is the above statement one of intellect and honesty, or one of ignorance and bigotry?

    Same deal if I say the same thing about televangelists and the church. You can't hide bigotry behind church bashing because church bashing US bigotry.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gaius View Post
    From the LA Times:

    http://www.latimes.com/business/la-f...story,amp.html

    ***QUOTE***
    34 top charity execs earn $1 million or more
    Those amounts are obscene. People donate their hard earned money to a charity assuming that it goes to help people, little suspecting that it goes to the top charity execs.

    The Chronicle of Philanthropy's annual executive compensation study, released Tuesday, said 34 of the top execs of some of the nation's biggest charities and foundations made $1 million or more in 2012.

    ...Brian Gallagher, president of United Way Worldwide, ... received $520,043 in salary, a $180,657 bonus, $470,801 in deferred payments and $48,804 in other payments

    ...According to ChiefExecutive.net, the median total compensation package of a private, for-profit company chief executive in 2011 was $362,900.
    ****END QUOTE****
    Yep, pretty obscene.

    So, someone with zero understanding (ignorance) of the actual salaries of actual heads of non profits
    I had answered your post point by point, asking questions, which you ignore.

    So, you prefer to deal with the postulation that the Church - and I'm assuming you mean the Catholic Church - is just like any other non-profit, and if other non-profits can give obscene amounts of money to their head execs, no one has a right to complain if televangelists also get paid a gazillion obscene dollars.

    Uses bigotoed negative stereotypes to ASSUME that televangelists are rich.
    Name me one televangelist who is NOT rich.

    That same ignorance ignores the fact that the salaries, both salaries, are already taxed, and in an ignorant manner dripping with scorn for organized religion, recommends that the church itself be taxed.
    You're responding to my post in this, I assume...I didn't address churches being taxed. My thought was that the people who donate their hard-earned money to televangelists are idiots. But it's a free country and if they want to throw away their money on people who don't need it...who should stop them?

    Ignorance and bigotry DO seem to go hand in hand don't they?
    Knowledge and ... knowledge... go hand in hand as well.

    We Christians have seen it before. We and our churches have been the subject of such persecution since oyr earliest days.
    Once Christianity got the upper hand in Europe, in 400 AD or whenever the heck it was - when and where in the US or Europe were Christians persecuted? Persecution was of those who didn't become Christian.

    Americas founders having witnessed that such can also take life in tax policy gave the same non profit status to churches it gave to orphanages poor houses etc.
    And those institutions have to keep enough money so they can run their businesses, yes. And hopefully take better care of the folks in them then what they did up until recently...

    . But in some people their hatred runs very jigh
    2ndpillar does seem to have a lot of contempt for the church, .... in my post to which you are ....actually NOT responding....I was referring to televangelists.

    so they reject the precepts if Amerocas founders and wish, as the 'enlightened' monarchs of old did, to tax the churches on their non existent imaginary profits.
    If churches didn't make a profit they couldn't keep their doors open.

    Is or is not the Catholic Church as a whole extremely wealthy. If they, like the extraordinarily rich "Top 1%" were taxed five percent more than what they are now, would that put a dent in their lifestyles one iota?

    No.
    "Let joy and innocence prevail."
    "Everyone's important to somebody."

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