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  1. #1

    Default Evidence Of Nothing

    What evidence outside of religious text is there that "nothing" has ever existed? Who has ever experienced "nothing"? If "nothing" existed then no longer existed doesnt that mean it was a finite "something" due to it having multiple states - namely, existing vs not?

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  3. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mobulis View Post
    Except that's as the universe is NOW, if there was a time when there was truly nothing, no matter, energy, time. Then present day laws wouldn't exist they would be completely different.
    Actually, that's how many physicists theorize "existence" is now and always has been. Sort of just one timeless "is" (you have to realize time is a property of THIS universe, so it "came into being" when this universe did. So it makes these concepts difficult to discuss. But the "foam" out of which the universe arose just "is". So goes the hypothesis/theory).

    Most agree there's no such thing as absolute "nothing".
    • The unexamined life is not worth living.
    • Wisdom is knowing how little we know.
    • The arguments stay the same...only the sides making those arguments change.


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  5. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by ImRightYoureWrong View Post
    I don't believe there is a "time" before time any more than I believe there's a 3rd dimension before the third dimension.
    John Archibald Wheeler- is that you?
    • The unexamined life is not worth living.
    • Wisdom is knowing how little we know.
    • The arguments stay the same...only the sides making those arguments change.


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  7. #18

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    Quote Originally Posted by JayJay View Post
    John Archibald Wheeler- is that you?
    I have come back from the 5th dimension to post at Hannity forums

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  9. #19

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    Quote Originally Posted by JayJay View Post
    Actually, that's how many physicists theorize "existence" is now and always has been. Sort of just one timeless "is" (you have to realize time is a property of THIS universe, so it "came into being" when this universe did. So it makes these concepts difficult to discuss. But the "foam" out of which the universe arose just "is". So goes the hypothesis/theory).

    Most agree there's no such thing as absolute "nothing".
    Yep and this is precisely what inspired this thread. What evidence do we have that reality has ever taken on a state of "nothing"?

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    Quote Originally Posted by ImRightYoureWrong View Post
    What evidence outside of religious text is there that "nothing" has ever existed? Who has ever experienced "nothing"? If "nothing" existed then no longer existed doesnt that mean it was a finite "something" due to it having multiple states - namely, existing vs not?
    Let stick with religious texts for the moment. Which texts suggest "Nothing?" The first chapter of the bible starts off with the chaotic primordial ocean. I don't know of any story that literally begins with "nothing."


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  13. #21

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    Quote Originally Posted by tzor View Post
    Let stick with religious texts for the moment. Which texts suggest "Nothing?" The first chapter of the bible starts off with the chaotic primordial ocean. I don't know of any story that literally begins with "nothing."
    You're suggesting the Bible is saying that the universe we live in always existed? If that's the case then there simply is no reason for the personified biblical God. And let's not pretend "the universe can't come from nothing" isn't a staple of Christian religion.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ImRightYoureWrong View Post
    Yep and this is precisely what inspired this thread. What evidence do we have that reality has ever taken on a state of "nothing"?
    In the original post you stated "outside of religious text”. Now this will be the third time this question will be asked of you, to which religious text do you refer?


    You stated in post #3 of this thread -

    "The phrase "before time" makes no sense because there is a time before time."

    And then in post #15 of this thread you went on to state -

    "I don't believe there is a "time" before time any more than I believe there's a 3rd dimension before the third dimension."

    My question is: Which is it?
    Last edited by lbo[Rv10]; December 4th, 2017 at 10:15 pm.

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  17. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by ImRightYoureWrong View Post
    You're suggesting the Bible is saying that the universe we live in always existed? If that's the case then there simply is no reason for the personified biblical God. And let's not pretend "the universe can't come from nothing" isn't a staple of Christian religion.
    Genesis chapter 1 verse 1 -

    “In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth."

    The sun, moon and stars were added to the heavens on the 4th day of the first week of time, but the universe was not complete until the end of the sixth day (as mankind, the beasts, the cattle and that which creeps upon the ground are part of the universe and the universe would not be complete unless these things were included). Before the universe and all that is in it was created it did not exist, that is, before time began.


    “the universe can’t come from nothing” was (imho&jmho) an answer to the big bang theory, before the 'singularity' theory was added to the original theory, and that was before the ‘foam’ theory was imagined and added to the original theory.
    Last edited by lbo[Rv10]; December 4th, 2017 at 11:01 pm.

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  19. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by JayJay View Post
    Sort of just one timeless "is" (you have to realize time is a property of THIS universe, so it "came into being" when this universe did. So it makes these concepts difficult to discuss. But the "foam" out of which the universe arose just "is". So goes the hypothesis/theory).
    If you replace 'the “foam”' with 'God', and ‘out of which’ with ‘from whom’, then you can replace ‘hypothesis/theory’ with ‘fact’ and the statement would be accurate.

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  21. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by lbo[Rv10] View Post
    If you replace 'the “foam”' with 'God', and ‘out of which’ with ‘from whom’, then you can replace ‘hypothesis/theory’ with ‘fact’ and the statement would be accurate.
    ”God” is not a fact.

    Not even a hypothesis.

    Sheer speculation.
    • The unexamined life is not worth living.
    • Wisdom is knowing how little we know.
    • The arguments stay the same...only the sides making those arguments change.


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  23. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by JayJay View Post
    ”God” is not a fact.

    Not even a hypothesis.

    Sheer speculation.
    Except that God (and that being the Lord God of Abraham, Isaac and Israel) has more evidence for His being than the big bang and evolution, aliens and global warming combined ever will.
    Last edited by lbo[Rv10]; December 4th, 2017 at 11:36 pm.

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  25. #27

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    Quote Originally Posted by lbo[Rv10] View Post
    In the original post you stated "outside of religious text”. Now this will be the third time this question will be asked of you, to which religious text do you refer?
    Are you suggesting the universe has always existed? Or simply that God has always existed? If you are suggesting that it's impossible for "nothing" to exist then there's no need for God.

    You stated in post #3 of this thread -

    "The phrase "before time" makes no sense because there is a time before time."

    And then in post #15 of this thread you went on to state -

    "I don't believe there is a "time" before time any more than I believe there's a 3rd dimension before the third dimension."

    My question is: Which is it?
    You try to be clever but prove that your concept of "before time" makes no sense by quoting the first statement. I'll say it again, the concept of "before time" makes no sense because that states that there is a time before time. There is no "before" time. That makes no sense.

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  27. #28

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    Quote Originally Posted by lbo[Rv10] View Post
    Genesis chapter 1 verse 1 -

    “In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth."

    The sun, moon and stars were added to the heavens on the 4th day of the first week of time, but the universe was not complete until the end of the sixth day (as mankind, the beasts, the cattle and that which creeps upon the ground are part of the universe and the universe would not be complete unless these things were included). Before the universe and all that is in it was created it did not exist, that is, before time began.


    “the universe can’t come from nothing” was (imho&jmho) an answer to the big bang theory, before the 'singularity' theory was added to the original theory, and that was before the ‘foam’ theory was imagined and added to the original theory.
    Quote Originally Posted by lbo[Rv10] View Post
    If you replace 'the “foam”' with 'God', and ‘out of which’ with ‘from whom’, then you can replace ‘hypothesis/theory’ with ‘fact’ and the statement would be accurate.
    Quote Originally Posted by lbo[Rv10] View Post
    Except that God (and that being the Lord God of Abraham, Isaac and Israel) has more evidence for His being than the big bang and evolution, aliens and global warming combined ever will.
    You obviously have no idea what you're talking about and the only thing you bring to this thread is assertions that the bible is true because it says so. Where is your evidence that both A) the universe requires a conscious deity and B) that the universe without a God cannot exist. You are beating around the bush.

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  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by ImRightYoureWrong View Post
    You're suggesting the Bible is saying that the universe we live in always existed? If that's the case then there simply is no reason for the personified biblical God. And let's not pretend "the universe can't come from nothing" isn't a staple of Christian religion.
    * [1:2] This verse is parenthetical, describing in three phases the pre-creation state symbolized by the chaos out of which God brings order: “earth,” hidden beneath the encompassing cosmic waters, could not be seen, and thus had no “form”; there was only darkness; turbulent wind swept over the waters. Commencing with the last-named elements (darkness and water), vv. 3–10 describe the rearrangement of this chaos: light is made (first day) and the water is divided into water above and water below the earth so that the earth appears and is no longer “without outline.” The abyss: the primordial ocean according to the ancient Semitic cosmogony. After God’s creative activity, part of this vast body forms the salt-water seas (vv. 9–10); part of it is the fresh water under the earth (Ps 33:7; Ez 31:4), which wells forth on the earth as springs and fountains (Gn 7:11; 8:2; Prv 3:20). Part of it, “the upper water” (Ps 148:4; Dn 3:60), is held up by the dome of the sky (vv. 6–7), from which rain descends on the earth (Gn 7:11; 2 Kgs 7:2, 19; Ps 104:13). A mighty wind: literally, “spirit or breath [ruah] of God”; cf. Gn 8:1.
    So Before Day 1 we have the water that covers the land thus not giving "form" to the land. That's not nothing. A lot of the "Christian" comes from a misreading of the Hebrew in the first sentence.

    Until modern times the first line was always translated, “In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.” Several comparable ancient cosmogonies, discovered in recent times, have a “when…then” construction, confirming the translation “when…then” here as well. “When” introduces the pre-creation state and “then” introduces the creative act affecting that state. The traditional translation, “In the beginning,” does not reflect the Hebrew syntax of the clause.


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  31. #30

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    Quote Originally Posted by tzor View Post
    So Before Day 1 we have the water that covers the land thus not giving "form" to the land. That's not nothing. A lot of the "Christian" comes from a misreading of the Hebrew in the first sentence.
    If I am understanding you correctly, let's just call the "water that covers the land" 'W'.

    If 'W' always existed and God simply modified it or appended properties to it, did God create 'W'? If so, there was a time that 'W' didn't exist. Else, 'W' has always existed in parallel with God or as God manifest. If parallel, then that shows that an eternal 'thing' can exist without the creation by God. If God manifest, then your argument is nothing more than God created the universe out of nothing but Himself. Which, as usual, Himself not needing a creator and having personified attributes. Seems completely unnecessary. Why not just get rid of the "God" word and personified attributes altogether and stick with naturalistic semantics?

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