"Common Sense Gun Laws for Mass Shootings" - Page 14

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  1. #1
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    Default "Common Sense Gun Laws for Mass Shootings"

    A lot of calls for more laws. I'm ready.

    You propose the law you want and we'll debate it.
    "Every man thinks meanly of himself for not having been a soldier"
    -Samuel Johnson

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  3. #196
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    Quote Originally Posted by westaussie View Post
    I am sure there may have been some deaths due to printing presses; the number of such fatalities would pale into insignificance when compared with the number of deaths due to guns.
    The point is that rights adapt to new technology.
    "Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive." C.S. Lewis


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    Quote Originally Posted by westaussie View Post
    I am sure there may have been some deaths due to printing presses; the number of such fatalities would pale into insignificance when compared with the number of deaths due to guns.
    Have you never heard the expression “The pen is mightier than the sword”? Well, the printing press is deadlier than the gun. Ideas have lead to hundreds of millions of deaths.

    "A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep." - Saul Bellow

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    Quote Originally Posted by perdidochas View Post
    The point is that rights adapt to new technology.
    More to the point if technology gets to the point of being able to shoot and kill innocent people by the hundreds per minute the rights should be modified to take this into account.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Samm View Post
    Have you never heard the expression “The pen is mightier than the sword”? Well, the printing press is deadlier than the gun. Ideas have lead to hundreds of millions of deaths.
    Death by paper cut: significantly slower method of killing people than via the medium of a semi-automatic.
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    Quote Originally Posted by westaussie View Post
    Death by paper cut: significantly slower method of killing people than via the medium of a semi-automatic.
    More people have died due to ideas than have died due to guns. A printing press ... or the Internet ... can spread a deadly idea faster than a bullet.

    "A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep." - Saul Bellow

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    Quote Originally Posted by Samm View Post
    More people have died due to ideas than have died due to guns. A printing press ... or the Internet ... can spread a deadly idea faster than a bullet.
    A very spurious argument as you could say that any invention (including guns) is an idea.
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  15. #202
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    Quote Originally Posted by westaussie View Post
    A very spurious argument as you could say that any invention (including guns) is an idea.
    Mass killers ... those who kill millions ... don’t use guns, they use ideas.

    "A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep." - Saul Bellow

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    Quote Originally Posted by Samm View Post
    Mass killers ... those who kill millions ... don’t use guns, they use ideas.
    Disingenuous in the extreme. Please speak to why there should not be reasonable gun reforms based on the developments in guns that has occurred post the times of 2A
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  19. #204
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    Quote Originally Posted by westaussie View Post
    Disingenuous in the extreme. Please speak to why there should not be reasonable gun reforms based on the developments in guns that has occurred post the times of 2A
    Because the word “reasonable” is subjective.

    Guns today are technological clones of guns designed more than 100 years ago. What development are you concerned about?

    "A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep." - Saul Bellow

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  21. #205
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    Quote Originally Posted by Samm View Post
    Because the word “reasonable” is subjective.

    Guns today are technological clones of guns designed more than 100 years ago. What development are you concerned about?
    A very simple solution for reasonable in this context would be to limit the access and ability of people to kill hundreds of people in a very short period. You can't really be asserting that the guns of today bare a similarity in their capacity to kill people with the guns that were available at the time of the 2A passing.
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  23. #206
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    Quote Originally Posted by westaussie View Post
    A very simple solution for reasonable in this context would be to limit the access and ability of people to kill hundreds of people in a very short period. You can't really be asserting that the guns of today bare a similarity in their capacity to kill people with the guns that were available at the time of the 2A passing.
    That is called prior restraint. The vast majority ... by several magnitudes ... of people who have legal access to guns under existing law do NOT kill hundreds of people in any length of time. The only way to curb the occasional mass killer is to eliminate the rights of everybody. And that sir, is NOT reasonable. Prior restraint is unconstitutional under the Fifth Amendment.

    And yes, I can assert that the guns of today are similar in their capacity to kill people as those of 100 years ago. Nothing significant has changed in that regard.

    "A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep." - Saul Bellow

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    Quote Originally Posted by Samm View Post
    That is called prior restraint. The vast majority ... by several magnitudes ... of people who have legal access to guns under existing law do NOT kill hundreds of people in any length of time. The only way to curb the occasional mass killer is to eliminate the rights of everybody. And that sir, is NOT reasonable. Prior restraint is unconstitutional under the Fifth Amendment.

    And yes, I can assert that the guns of today are similar in their capacity to kill people as those of 100 years ago. Nothing significant has changed in that regard.
    Samm it is really disingenuous and I would say below yo,u when you ignore that the capacity far more more people in a very short period of time is far greater now than at the time of the 2A passing.

    I would deduce from your comments that you think it should be complete laissez faire with respect to guns no matter what their capacity. I would also make note of your "occasional mass killer: and regard such a casual approach is perhaps one of the reasons why the USA has such a number of mass shootings disproportionately to Australia.
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  27. #208
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    Quote Originally Posted by westaussie View Post
    Samm it is really disingenuous and I would say below yo,u when you ignore that the capacity far more more people in a very short period of time is far greater now than at the time of the 2A passing.

    I would deduce from your comments that you think it should be complete laissez faire with respect to guns no matter what their capacity. I would also make note of your "occasional mass killer: and regard such a casual approach is perhaps one of the reasons why the USA has such a number of mass shootings disproportionately to Australia.
    Your ignorance of 100 year old weaponry does not make my comments disingenuous.

    And the fact that Australia does not have a Bill of Rights (containing either a second or fifth amendment) does not mean that we in America don’t have the right to keep and bear arms without encumbrance by prior restraint. That may be acceptable down under, but it does not work here.

    "A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep." - Saul Bellow

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    Quote Originally Posted by Samm View Post
    Your ignorance of 100 year old weaponry does not make my comments disingenuous.

    And the fact that Australia does not have a Bill of Rights (containing either a second or fifth amendment) does not mean that we in America don’t have the right to keep and bear arms without encumbrance by prior restraint. That may be acceptable down under, but it does not work here.
    What we ALSO don't have is a continuing expectation that there will be ongoing gun massacres. If you think that the guns of today have the same potential to kill at the same rate as the guns available AT THE TIME OF the 2A PASSING (NOT 100 years ago) then with the greatest of respect I would hope you would advocate that the modern day guns are banned and only those available at the time of the 2A passing should be legal.

    You can obfuscate and divert as much as you like but the facts are that for the US to have a similar per capita gun homicide rate as Australia your population would need to be in excess of 1,000,000,000.

    With respect to Australia's gun laws they are working. John Howard and Tim Fisher showed courage in shutting down opposition within their respective parties (Liberal Party and National Party) with the support of the ALP.
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  31. #210
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    Quote Originally Posted by westaussie View Post
    What we ALSO don't have is a continuing expectation that there will be ongoing gun massacres. If you think that the guns of today have the same potential to kill at the same rate as the guns available AT THE TIME OF the 2A PASSING (NOT 100 years ago) then with the greatest of respect I would hope you would advocate that the modern day guns are banned and only those available at the time of the 2A passing should be legal.

    You can obfuscate and divert as much as you like but the facts are that for the US to have a similar per capita gun homicide rate as Australia your population would need to be in excess of 1,000,000,000.

    With respect to Australia's gun laws they are working. John Howard and Tim Fisher showed courage in shutting down opposition within their respective parties (Liberal Party and National Party) with the support of the ALP.
    Are you sure you want to move the bar back to 1789?

    Back then, the army of every major power in the world issued smooth boar muskets to their troops that couldn’t hit the side of a barn at 100 meters. On the other hand, the Patriot Militias, which were manned with citizen volunteers who brought their own personal weapons to the fight, were armed with rifles that were accurate enough to hit a man at 400 meters. In other words, the people had better arms technology than the King’s Army.

    You are still avoiding the fact that between the 2nd and 5th Amendments, we Americans have the right to keep and bear arms without prior restraint to do so. One of the principles that the USA was founded on is that the preservation of freedom carries risk. He who gives up his liberty for security neither has nor deserves either. I am truly sorry that you Aussies don’t understand that.

    "A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep." - Saul Bellow

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