The Old Testament - a study thread - Page 8

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  1. #1
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    Default The Old Testament - a study thread

    As I mentioned in a previous thread, I'm reading the Bible - King James Version - from beginning to end.

    Still working on Exodus. I've got to the point, Chapter 24, where Moses is on Mount Sinai being instructed on how to build the Ark of the Covenant - all in gold.

    And of course all sorts of things from Genesis and Exodus have puzzled me... many of which I've asked about before, including God's logic in sending a flood to wipe out all mankind and all animal kind - but then saving Noah's family who are all still part of original sin...so He accomplished nothing by that flood except to kill a lot of people...original sin and man's wickedness was still in the world...

    Then there's the story of Joseph. There's going to be 7 years of famine in the land, so Joseph's father - Jacob aka Israel - brings all his people into Egypt to serve the pharaoh - which is the start of their slavery.

    And I've asked about that before too....Moses keeps telling Pharaoh to let his people go, but God - GOD - keeps hardening Pharaoh's heart so that the Egyptians have to endure the 10 plagues.

    And then after he lets them go, God AGAIN hardens Pharaoh's heart so he chases after them with his army and is drowned in the Red Sea. None of that was Pharaoh's own doing - God did it all...

    But, I have asked about all that before so let's start some new questions...

    When God is telling Moses to tell the Hebrews to "get out of Dodge," he tells them to "borrow" jewelry from the Egypians, and is specific that they are only going out to "worship" their God - implying that they'll return and, presumably, bring back all those jewels with them.

    So is God telling Moses and the Hebrews to lie to the Egyptians? And...they're pretty well-treated slaves, if the Egyptians allow them to borrow jewelry...
    "Let joy and innocence prevail."
    "Everyone's important to somebody."
    "Sticks and stones may break bones, but words can break hearts."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alex McAlpine View Post

    I don't think your Bergdahl analogy works today,
    It wasn't an analogy. I was making the point that the incident has many different layers. One layer is what Bergdahl did. Then came the layers of intel, and some of that intel was false. That is a story in and of itself and believe me, acting on false intel has a great affect on those who collected and passed on that intel. Next we have the soldiers who went out and searched. Six soldiers died, and each of their stories provide additional layers. Other soldiers suffered injuries, one horrendous injuries that is going to affect him and all his family members the rest of their lives. Then there is the trial. There is Bergdahl's family and community. There is the judge and the attorneys. Layer upon layer upon layer.

    The Bible story about Moses striking the rock twice is simply a piece of a total account that is most likely just as complicated as the Bergdahl story. However, the portion of the story that is told focuses on how Moses disobeyed orders. Everyone agrees that Moses had orders to use simple words. Everyone agrees that Moses disobeyed those orders. Everyone agrees that when the tribe rebelled and disobeyed orders, they were rightfully punished. Therefore no one complained when their leader was punished when he also rebelled and was disobedient to orders.

    Here is where we can use an analogy. Bergdahl went before his judge, and his judge said, "No punishment." Yet you think Bergdahl deserved hanging, that the judge was not harsh enough. Moses went before his judge, and his judge said, "You may look into the Promised Land, but another will lead the people into that land." You believe Moses' judge was too harsh.

    Both men--one of lower ranks, one of higher ranks--disobeyed orders. It appears you believe the man of lower rank deserves death while the man in leadership deserved rewarded.

    For the record I am disgusted by Bergdahl, his attorney, and the judge--the attorney for voicing his eagerness regarding the automatic appeal process for the dishonorable discharge. I would not have hanged Bergdahl, but the 14 year sentence the prosecuted asked for is not unreasonable, it would have been lenient. I would have also been okay with a six year sentence, one year for each of the dead who died searching for him.




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    Quote Originally Posted by Meriweather View Post
    The Bible story about Moses striking the rock twice is simply a piece of a total account that is most likely just as complicated as the Bergdahl story. However, the portion of the story that is told focuses on how Moses disobeyed orders. Everyone agrees that Moses had orders to use simple words. Everyone agrees that Moses disobeyed those orders. Everyone agrees that when the tribe rebelled and disobeyed orders, they were rightfully punished. Therefore no one complained when their leader was punished when he also rebelled and was disobedient to orders.
    .
    Okay, I see what you're saying, now!
    "Let joy and innocence prevail."
    "Everyone's important to somebody."
    "Sticks and stones may break bones, but words can break hearts."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alex McAlpine View Post
    Lbo - so, all of our actions are pre-ordained. And all the dislike, contempt, etc. that you and other Republicans pour on the Democrats is therefore foolish - they are behaving the way God is making them behave, correct - to bring about his plan? They're just puppets in His game.
    A man plans with his heart but the Lord directs his steps.


    So Jesus *doesn't* lay it down himself - he's been commanded to do so by his Father. And since he knows he's going to be brought to life again, he's not really making a sacrifice, nor is God in giving his 'only begotten Son' as if Jesus can't, and won't, be resurrected.
    It might have been quite the sacrifice for Jesus to live in a mortal body, it certainly was a sacrifice for Him to suffer the kind of death He suffered.


    So, again, God knows that the Jews aren't going to be any better people than all the others that he created and then rejected to choose the Jews as his 'chosen ones' - even though again and again they prove they don't deserve the appelation.

    Why does God keep them, when they prove just as stupid and idol worshiping as those whom he allows them to utterly destroy or enslave?
    Why? Because God is faithful. He made a promise to Abraham and He is going to bring it to pass... at its appointed time.


    Do you deliberately not capitalize Satan's name? I'm not being the grammar police, I'm just curious. I've noticed at least one Christian here never capitalizes the Bible, just rendering it as some normal book or bible (collection of writings on a subject, not a holy book).

    But God *knows* who will come to repentance. Is Satan going to come to repentance?
    Yes, I do that deliberately, as with his religion.

    Your second question is answered at Revelation20:10.

    So you agree that there's misery and suffering in the world. And you don't think it's cruel to make people suffer this when God already knows the ending of all of this? When God is deliberately visiting this misery and suffering on the world?
    The world has been given over to satan, he is the one relishing the misery and suffering of mankind.


    The few promises, of promises in general, or one of the few promises of God that you trust.

    And why do you, Lbo, trust it?
    I trust what Godís says because God is faithful.
    Why do I trust it? Because I see the other things God has said and then brought them to pass.


    Of all the cruel things God did to Adam, he shows one bit of mercy by not executing his son who deserved to be executed (whatever happened to an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth), and from *this* you declare that God is not cruel at all?
    I said He is merciful, and He is in big ways too!
    In fact, His mercy endures forever.

    I'd say sending 7 or 8 unnecessary plagues upon Egypt (since, in the KJV, Pharoah is willing to let them go at once) was pretty cruel. Especially the one about killing all the first born.

    (And it's just occurred to me, by the way. I had assumed that God killed all the first born babies. Did he kill grown up sons - adults - who happened to be the first born? - in each household?)
    To me, the 10 plagues show His righteousness.
    ALL the firstborn, of animals too!

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  9. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by lbo[Rv10] View Post
    A man plans with his heart but the Lord directs his steps.
    So the Lord is causing all the evil things to happen in the world, by directing the steps of these puppets.



    It might have been quite the sacrifice for Jesus to live in a mortal body, it certainly was a sacrifice for Him to suffer the kind of death He suffered.
    Not a sacrifice, since he gets to live again. He certainly felt agony - kind of cruel of God not to give him that condition where a person doesn't feel pain. (Congential analgesia).

    Why? Because God is faithful. He made a promise to Abraham and He is going to bring it to pass... at its appointed time.
    Even if the people clearly don't deserve it. Okay.

    Yes, I do that deliberately, as with his religion.
    OK.

    Your second question is answered at Revelation20:10.
    I've only reached the first chapter of Joshua. Please just tell me. Does Satan come to repentance?

    The world has been given over to satan,
    Who by?

    he is the one relishing the misery and suffering of mankind.
    And God does nothing to stop it, either because he can't, or won't. Which means he's relishing it as well.


    Why do I trust it? Because I see the other things God has said and then brought them to pass.
    In the Old Testament - with physical proof today that these things happened, not just words?

    Could you give some examples, please.


    To me, the 10 plagues show His righteousness.
    Now this is interesting.

    ALL the firstborn, of animals too!
    The Egyptian people may have been mean to the Israelites and continued to be so if God hadn't killed them... but why did the animals deserve to die?
    "Let joy and innocence prevail."
    "Everyone's important to somebody."
    "Sticks and stones may break bones, but words can break hearts."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alex McAlpine View Post
    I've only reached the first chapter of Joshua. Please just tell me. Does Satan come to repentance?
    No.... You will need to read it for yourself.


    In the Old Testament - with physical proof today that these things happened, not just words?

    Could you give some examples, please.
    Sure:
    1) Nebuchadnezzar destroying Jerusalem
    2) Jerusalem laid waste for 70 years [as foretold by Jeremiah]
    3) Cyrus, the great [called by name] overthrowing Babylon [as foretold by Isaiah over 150 years earlier]


    The Egyptian people may have been mean to the Israelites and continued to be so if God hadn't killed them... but why did the animals deserve to die?
    Because God said so.

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  13. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by lbo[Rv10] View Post
    No.... You will need to read it for yourself.
    Well, hopefully I'll be able to get to that point by the end of the year. Thanks for leaving me in suspense.

    Because God said so.
    Why do you *think* God wanted all those innocent animals dead?
    "Let joy and innocence prevail."
    "Everyone's important to somebody."
    "Sticks and stones may break bones, but words can break hearts."

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    I haven't had a chance to return to Joshua... Still on the first chapter...

    Since this is a discussion thread on the Old Testament, anyone else feel like expressing any thoughts on Joshua?
    "Let joy and innocence prevail."
    "Everyone's important to somebody."
    "Sticks and stones may break bones, but words can break hearts."

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  17. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alex McAlpine View Post
    I haven't had a chance to return to Joshua... Still on the first chapter...

    Since this is a discussion thread on the Old Testament, anyone else feel like expressing any thoughts on Joshua?
    I've just finished Joshua.

    Lots of peoples being utterly killed and their cities burnt to the ground.

    As at least one person has said before, in the Bible we get only what God deems important so we're not told why all these peoples had to be utterly exterminated...

    Yet there were at least two where the "children of Judah could not drive them out" - as I think it was phrased (Bible's upstairs and I'm downstairs at the moment) and I wonder why they could exterminate so many folks so easily with God's help, but failed with a couple of others.

    And there's the foreshadowing - at least I assume it's foreshadowing. Joshua before he dies warns everyone that if they take up other gods, their own God would turn away from them...
    "Let joy and innocence prevail."
    "Everyone's important to somebody."
    "Sticks and stones may break bones, but words can break hearts."

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  19. #114
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    I'm also halfway through Judges, with the idiot Israelites doing evil in God's sight by forsaking him for Baalim and Ashtaroth not once, not twice, not three times, but four times or more...

    What idiots.

    But in the KJV, it says that God "sells" the Isrealites to each of the peoples that conquer them for a period of years. Does this mean that God descends and talks to someone in these countries/lands/cities and actually takes cash money for the Isrealites to go into bondage?
    "Let joy and innocence prevail."
    "Everyone's important to somebody."
    "Sticks and stones may break bones, but words can break hearts."

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  21. #115
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    I've finally gotten back to reading the Bible, and am continuing with Judges.KJV

    Two questions.
    Judges 10-6 And the children of Israel did evil again in the sight of the Lord (by worshiping other Gods).

    10-7: And the anger of the Lord was hot against Israel, and he sold them into the hands of the Philistines.
    So, God gets mad , but instead of letting the Isrealites be taken over naturally by the Philistines or the children of Ammon, he SELLS them into slavery.

    Is this a metaphor or does he actually manifest to the ruler of these two countries and say, "Hey, give me ...something .... and I'll let you enslave my people."

    To me, selling implies that he takes money or goods for his people.

    And it begs the question - how many times, to punish the Isrealites who disobey him, does God "harden the hearts" of other peoples who ordinarily would leave the Isrealites alone, but who are forced - by God - to take up arms against the Isrealites, and once the Isrealites have made their peace with God again, God then turns around and helps the Isrealites destroy the people that *HE* set up to be the villains in the first place.



    Then, there's Judges 12:30
    And Jephthah vowed a vow unto the Lord, and said, "If thou shalt without fail deliver the children of Ammon into mine hands, then will it shall be that whatsoever cometh forth of the doors of my house to meet me, when I return in peace...shall surely be the Lord's, and I will offer it up for a burn offering."
    How stupid is this? Jepthah has one child, and presumably a wife...it doesn't occur to him that one of these two females will come out of the house instead of..what? A servant? An animal?

    Did God make him phrase his vow in just that way, as a punishment for giving God a conditional bargain - if-then? which God presumably wouldn't like.
    "Let joy and innocence prevail."
    "Everyone's important to somebody."
    "Sticks and stones may break bones, but words can break hearts."

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