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    Default Does receiving the Eucharist give eternal life?

    Does the Eucharist (to use Catholic terminology) give you eternal life? That was a question I asked in a different thread.

    The latter part of John chapter 6 seems to be saying (from a literal reading) that unless one eats the flesh of the son of Man and drinks his blood, that person does not have life. Conversely, if a person eats the flesh of the son of Man and drinks his blood, that man will have eternal life (not just temporarily).

    The following out of context passage, for your consideration:

    52 The Jews then disputed among themselves, saying, “How can this man give us his flesh to eat?” So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in you; he who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. For my flesh is food indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him. As the living Father sent me, and I live because of the Father, so he who eats me will live because of me. This is the bread which came down from heaven, not such as the fathers ate and died; he who eats this bread will live for ever.” John 6:52-58 taken from the RSVCE

    Comments and Questions are welcome. Insults, innuendos and rude remarks are not.

    Discuss
    Last edited by Christian; February 7th, 2015 at 8:36 am.
    The great enemy of truth is not so much the lie (deliberate, contrived and dishonest) but the myth (persistent, persuasive and unrealistic).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Koushi Shinigami View Post
    I sense differing uses of the term 'saved'
    You have that right. To born again believers it has a somewhat different meaning than it does to for example Catholics, Lutherans, Episcopalians etc.

    To the former it represents a specific event in time, when they as an adult accept Jesus as lord and savior and dedicate their lives to service.

    To the latter it is lifelong and simply a matter of faith.

    To Lutherans and Catholics there is a much greater importance applied to Communion than with the "born again" denominations, for them it's more an act of obedience, with us an affirmation of the physical and spiritual bond we have with Christ which is renewed with each time we take communion.
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    In 1415, the Council of Constance decreed that only the bread should be administered to the people, and that the priest should drink the wine for the people. This practice is contrary to divine scripture. Reread 1 Corinthians 11:23-29 and the gospel accounts. Paul commanded, "But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup." Nowhere does it imply that anyone was to feed themthe bread or drink the fruit of the vine for them! When Jesus instituted this supper, in His own memory, He commanded them ALL to partake of it, saying, "drink ye all of it." (Matthew 26:26) Mark says that Jesus "gave it to them: and they all drank of it." (Mark 14:22-23) Compare the order in which they partook of the Lord's Supper, as revealed in the scriptures, with the Catholic tradition--a priest takes a small cracker or wafer and puts it on the recipientís tongue (an unsanitary practice); then, the priest drinks the fruit of the vine for those who are present. Is this partaking of the memorial supper or being fed only the bread portionof the "supper?" The Bible teaches that the first-century disciples met on the "first day of the week" to "break bread," implying that all partook of both elements of the memorial supper (Acts 20:7; Acts 2:42; Matthew 26:26-29; 1 Corinthians 10:16). This unscriptural Catholic tradition disgraces the Divine memorial that Christ instituted.


    http://www.knollwoodchurch.org/yr200...antiation.html


    The catholic eucharist violates the very scriptures it pretends to uphold. 1/2 of the memorial isn't even partaken of by the congregation. Jesus instructed all to drink the cup, not just a Priest. "And when He had taken a cup and given thanks, He gave it to them, saying, "Drink from it, all of you;" Matthew 26:27
    Last edited by newbieme; September 10th, 2017 at 1:25 am.

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    Quote Originally Posted by WildRose View Post
    You have that right. To born again believers it has a somewhat different meaning than it does to for example Catholics, Lutherans, Episcopalians etc.

    To the former it represents a specific event in time, when they as an adult accept Jesus as lord and savior and dedicate their lives to service.

    To the latter it is lifelong and simply a matter of faith.

    To Lutherans and Catholics there is a much greater importance applied to Communion than with the "born again" denominations, for them it's more an act of obedience, with us an affirmation of the physical and spiritual bond we have with Christ which is renewed with each time we take communion.
    this seems like a good summation. It is in line with what I've gathered from discussions with the two groups.

    It would also seem that many born again believers think that at the moment they accept Jesus (what they call salvation) they are at that instant guaranteed entrance into Heaven and the presence of God for eternity. Regardless of anything they do or don't do after that moment.

    They also seem to spend a lot of time questioning the salvation of their fellow believers.
    Last edited by Koushi Shinigami; September 10th, 2017 at 5:49 am.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LeroyBrown View Post
    I do not believe in Transubstantiation, but there has to be more than mere symbolism at play for God to strike some ill and others dead.
    You might be simply stuck up on a word. Let's just work with the basics. You say it's more than a symbol ... then what is it? And if you keep saying "it's more" when do you stop?

    For Catholics the answer is simple; you don't. It is the body and blood, soul and divinity of the Son of God, Jesus Christ, with all the metaphors that this implies.

    And then, once you finally get there, someone is going to say "but it looks like bread." And, since you are probably still immersed in western thinking, strange Latin words are going to come to your head and you will probably hate yourself for saying them.


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    Quote Originally Posted by WildRose View Post
    Christ lived as a human being and was living as a human being at the time of the Last Supper which is the model we use for Communion even today.
    Incarnate. That is the keyword here. You and I are not "incarnate". Jesus was (and is) both God and Man, simultaneously. Look, I understand Transubstantiation. I understand the concept. It's right up their with the Incarnation. I don't personally believe in it. But I understand why others could. It's a mystery. The Trinity and the Hypostatic Union of Christ are also mysteries. So I'm not saying it's foolish to believe in these types of mysteries. I'm simply following the logical progression.
    The great enemy of truth is not so much the lie (deliberate, contrived and dishonest) but the myth (persistent, persuasive and unrealistic).

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    The catholic eucharist violates the very scriptures it pretends to uphold. 1/2 of the memorial isn't even partaken of by the congregation. Jesus instructed all to drink the cup, not just a Priest. "And when He had taken a cup and given thanks, He gave it to them, saying, "Drink from it, all of you;" Matthew 26:27

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    Quote Originally Posted by Christian View Post
    Incarnate. That is the keyword here. You and I are not "incarnate". Jesus was (and is) both God and Man, simultaneously. Look, I understand Transubstantiation. I understand the concept. It's right up their with the Incarnation. I don't personally believe in it. But I understand why others could. It's a mystery. The Trinity and the Hypostatic Union of Christ are also mysteries. So I'm not saying it's foolish to believe in these types of mysteries. I'm simply following the logical progression.
    Yet the bible tells us that while he was the Son of God he was a man. He was born a human, lived a human existence, suffered horrible tortures and died as a human.

    He then rose again both in body and spirit still bearing his mortal wounds. The way I read and understand it, the last days following his resurrection and prior to ascension he was more a spiritual being than human.

    Also remember God is divided into the Holy Trinity, Father, Son, and Holy Ghost.

    In matters of faith logic often fails because God exists outside the bounds of the laws of physics as we understand them. Man trying to understand God is like the ants trying to understand they guy who put them in the ant farm and looks down on them from above.

    As for transubstantiation no I don't believe the wafers and wine actually become blood and flesh, they are the representation of Christ's body and blood and more importantly represent the fellowship we have with Christ through "the Church" meaning the whole of Christianity. We are brothers and sisters in Christ and as such he is a part of every one of us and we reaffirm that bond both spiritual and physical through communion.

    There's a pretty good read on the subject here:

    https://www.gci.org/church/lordssup/3fold

    I may not agree with all of it but it touches on most of the same points.

    Another good read can be found here.

    http://www.auburn.edu/~allenkc/openhse/communion.html
    Last edited by WildRose; September 12th, 2017 at 1:53 am.
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    Quote Originally Posted by newbieme View Post
    The catholic eucharist violates the very scriptures it pretends to uphold. 1/2 of the memorial isn't even partaken of by the congregation. Jesus instructed all to drink the cup, not just a Priest. "And when He had taken a cup and given thanks, He gave it to them, saying, "Drink from it, all of you;" Matthew 26:27
    Newb do you actually think you're helping anyone by berating Catholics? They are following the doctrines they are taught and trust in the infallibility of The Pope.

    I have my own issues with The Catholic Church (papacy and bureaucracy) but I know that berating the faithful acting as some sort of self appointed authority isn't going to cause any of them to do anything but shut me out.

    Give it a rest and try discussing things here within the rules and spirit of this particular sub forum and you might actually do some good.
    Don't Blame Me I voted for Cruz! Without the 1st & 2nd Amendments the rest of The Constitution is meaningless
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    Quote Originally Posted by WildRose View Post
    Newb do you actually think you're helping anyone by berating Catholics? They are following the doctrines they are taught and trust in the infallibility of The Pope.

    I have my own issues with The Catholic Church (papacy and bureaucracy) but I know that berating the faithful acting as some sort of self appointed authority isn't going to cause any of them to do anything but shut me out.

    Give it a rest and try discussing things here within the rules and spirit of this particular sub forum and you might actually do some good.
    The fact that he's telling a lie does not help his argument either.


    17. From the first days of the Church's celebration of the Eucharist, Holy Communion consisted of the reception of both species in fulfillment of the Lord's command to "take and eat . . . take and drink." The distribution of Holy Communion to the faithful under both kinds was thus the norm for more than a millennium of Catholic liturgical practice.

    18. The practice of Holy Communion under both kinds at Mass continued until the late eleventh century, when the custom of distributing the Eucharist to the faithful under the form of bread alone began to grow. By the twelfth century theologians such as Peter Cantor speak of Communion under one kind as a "custom" of the Church.28 This practice spread until the Council of Constance in 1415 decreed that Holy Communion under the form of bread alone would be distributed to the faithful.

    19. In 1963, the Fathers of the Second Vatican Council authorized the extension of the faculty for Holy Communion under both kinds in Sacrosanctum Concilium:

    The dogmatic principles which were laid down by the Council of Trent remaining intact, Communion under both kinds may be granted when the bishops think fit, not only to clerics and religious, but also to the laity, in cases to be determined by the Apostolic See. . . .29

    20. The Council's decision to restore Holy Communion under both kinds at the bishop's discretion took expression in the first edition of the Missale Romanum and enjoys an even more generous application in the third typical edition of the Missale Romanum:

    Holy Communion has a fuller form as a sign when it takes place under both kinds. For in this form the sign of the Eucharistic banquet is more clearly evident and clearer expression is given to the divine will by which the new and eternal Covenant is ratified in the Blood of the Lord, as also the connection between the Eucharistic banquet and the eschatological banquet in the Kingdom of the Father.30
    The General Instruction further states that "at the same time the faithful should be instructed to participate more readily in this sacred rite, by which the sign of the Eucharistic banquet is made more fully evident."31

    21. The extension of the faculty for the distribution of Holy Communion under both kinds does not represent a change in the Church's immemorial beliefs concerning the Holy Eucharist. Rather, today the Church finds it salutary to restore a practice, when appropriate, that for various reasons was not opportune when the Council of Trent was convened in 1545.32 But with the passing of time, and under the guidance of the Holy Spirit, the reform of the Second Vatican Council has resulted in the restoration of a practice by which the faithful are again able to experience "a fuller sign of the Eucharistic banquet."33

    http://www.usccb.org/prayer-and-wors...inds/index.cfm


    Want to wager on whether or not this changes his tune? My money is on not.
    .

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    "And when He had taken a cup and given thanks, He gave it to them, saying, "Drink from it, all of you;" Matthew 26:27

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    Quote Originally Posted by Koushi Shinigami View Post
    The fact that he's telling a lie does not help his argument either.


    17. From the first days of the Church's celebration of the Eucharist, Holy Communion consisted of the reception of both species in fulfillment of the Lord's command to "take and eat . . . take and drink." The distribution of Holy Communion to the faithful under both kinds was thus the norm for more than a millennium of Catholic liturgical practice.

    18. The practice of Holy Communion under both kinds at Mass continued until the late eleventh century, when the custom of distributing the Eucharist to the faithful under the form of bread alone began to grow. By the twelfth century theologians such as Peter Cantor speak of Communion under one kind as a "custom" of the Church.28 This practice spread until the Council of Constance in 1415 decreed that Holy Communion under the form of bread alone would be distributed to the faithful.

    19. In 1963, the Fathers of the Second Vatican Council authorized the extension of the faculty for Holy Communion under both kinds in Sacrosanctum Concilium:

    The dogmatic principles which were laid down by the Council of Trent remaining intact, Communion under both kinds may be granted when the bishops think fit, not only to clerics and religious, but also to the laity, in cases to be determined by the Apostolic See. . . .29

    20. The Council's decision to restore Holy Communion under both kinds at the bishop's discretion took expression in the first edition of the Missale Romanum and enjoys an even more generous application in the third typical edition of the Missale Romanum:

    Holy Communion has a fuller form as a sign when it takes place under both kinds. For in this form the sign of the Eucharistic banquet is more clearly evident and clearer expression is given to the divine will by which the new and eternal Covenant is ratified in the Blood of the Lord, as also the connection between the Eucharistic banquet and the eschatological banquet in the Kingdom of the Father.30
    The General Instruction further states that "at the same time the faithful should be instructed to participate more readily in this sacred rite, by which the sign of the Eucharistic banquet is made more fully evident."31

    21. The extension of the faculty for the distribution of Holy Communion under both kinds does not represent a change in the Church's immemorial beliefs concerning the Holy Eucharist. Rather, today the Church finds it salutary to restore a practice, when appropriate, that for various reasons was not opportune when the Council of Trent was convened in 1545.32 But with the passing of time, and under the guidance of the Holy Spirit, the reform of the Second Vatican Council has resulted in the restoration of a practice by which the faithful are again able to experience "a fuller sign of the Eucharistic banquet."33

    http://www.usccb.org/prayer-and-wors...inds/index.cfm


    Want to wager on whether or not this changes his tune? My money is on not.
    So, pardon me but I haven't attended a Catholic Mass since about 1986 and that was only a few days after a major bit of orthopedic work so my head wasn't quite where it should be, although they were getting it back closer to where it belonged HA!

    Does this mean that the Roman Catholics are now doing it similarly to how the LCMS Lutheran Church does it with all receiving both the whine and bread?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Koushi Shinigami View Post
    this seems like a good summation. It is in line with what I've gathered from discussions with the two groups.

    It would also seem that many born again believers think that at the moment they accept Jesus (what they call salvation) they are at that instant guaranteed entrance into Heaven and the presence of God for eternity. Regardless of anything they do or don't do after that moment.

    They also seem to spend a lot of time questioning the salvation of their fellow believers.
    To your last I believe it is at least overwhelming well meant. They have a real spiritual awakening that marks the day they were "saved" and it'a a high you can ride for a long time. They get more of it when the bring others into the fold and they too become "born again".

    The only ones that bug me are the selfriteous hypocrites that think they're just scoring points with the preacher and buying some cheap penances to help them get in knowing they won't be able to get their on their own without a little help.

    For nearly thirty years no matter where I was in the world I'd try to find the chaplain on sunday and attend his service or I'd buddy up with one of the guys in my unit and just to pick a local church to attend if we could get a day pass to do so.

    One thing I tried hard to do was to spend at least one service in each of the oldest Churches in Germany while I was there and actually attended both Catholic and Lutheran churches that were originally built before Luther Nailed his 99 thesis to the door, the even which launched The Reformation.

    Oddly, Luther was a very loyal catholic and had no desire to break from it, he simply wanted to be a reformer. Eventually he had such a following though he was endangering himself and his followers by continuing the Catholic attendance and slowly they broke away. It was only by the grace of god he didn't end up suffering a Heretics death in the end.
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    How can ANYTHING give eternal life other than believing/trusting in Jesus Christ. He said, "I am the way, the truth and the life. No man comes to the Father but by me."

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    Quote Originally Posted by WildRose View Post
    So, pardon me but I haven't attended a Catholic Mass since about 1986 and that was only a few days after a major bit of orthopedic work so my head wasn't quite where it should be, although they were getting it back closer to where it belonged HA!

    Does this mean that the Roman Catholics are now doing it similarly to how the LCMS Lutheran Church does it with all receiving both the whine and bread?
    I don't know about the whine. But yes, both wine and bread are usually available to the entire congregation. It is the participant's option as to partaking of the wine. As they serve it from common cups (as the example in scripture shows), those who are ill usually abstain from the wine. There are many other personal reasons why someone would want to abstain, but it is available to those who want to participate.

    And if someone wants to take the host info their own hands instead of it being placed on their tongue, they have that option as well.

    So you see, someone it playing with outdated information. Not that he gives two ****s about being honest or accurate.
    Last edited by Koushi Shinigami; September 13th, 2017 at 4:15 pm.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mamaw View Post
    How can ANYTHING give eternal life other than believing/trusting in Jesus Christ. He said, "I am the way, the truth and the life. No man comes to the Father but by me."
    Is this a rhetorical question, or would you like an actual answer with scriptural support?
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