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  1. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by johnwk View Post
    The very arguments Madison made then are applicable today, and even more so!
    Why? No let's be real here. The Constitution was ratified on June 21, 1788. Virginia and New York had not yet signed on.
    June 25, 1788, Virginia ratifies the Constitution (already the LAW OF THE LAND)
    July 26, 1788. New York ratified the Constitution. New York requests that thirty-three alterations be made to it.

    This was the state of the Constitution at the time of the November. Elections for Congress or the President would not start for another month. There is no indication that the "General Convention" called for by New York was an Article V Convention, but a general one in the same manner as the convention to create the Constitution was a General Convention. It certainly wasn't a convention being called because of the lack of action by Congress, as it hadn't even been formed yet. No, it was a convention being called before the whole Constitution would ever go into full effect that was the problem with Madison, to quote from his letter.

    It is not unworthy of consideration that the prospect of a second Convention would be viewed by all Europe as a dark and threatening Cloud hanging over the Constitution just established, and perhaps over the Union itself; and wd. therefore suspend at least the advantages this great event has promised us on that side. It is a well known fact that this event has filled that quarter of the Globe with equal wonder and veneration, that its influence is already secretly but powerfully working in favor of liberty in France, and it is fairly to be inferred that the final event there may be materially affected by the prospect of things here.
    Translation, "oh my, what would the neighbors think?"

    His arguments against a convention before the Constitution fully took effect is vastly different from a convention over a hundred years later.


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  3. #47
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    Default Madison's letter to Turberville November 2, 1788

    .

    The threshold of needing nine states’ approval for our existing Constitution to become law was satisfied on June 21, 1787 when New Hampshire ratified it and meet the nine state threshold. Virginia followed with its ratification on June 26th 1788, a year later, and New York, which you mention above, ratified the Constitution on July 26th, 1788, also a year after New Hampshire ratified the Constitution. This accounted for eleven states having ratified the Constitution. Rhode Island and North Carolina were the two remaining states which did not yet ratify the Constitution.

    During this time period, [after eleven states had already ratified the Constitution] a group of Anti Federalists in New York and Virginia were still not satisfied with the Constitution even though New York and Virginia had ratified it, and they wanted to call another Convention to correct perceived deficiencies in the Constitution.

    Madison’s letter to George Lee Turberville was written on November 2, 1788, months after New York and Virginia had ratified the Constitution.

    After the Constitution had by ratified by eleven states a small group of Anti Federalists in New York and Virginia wanted to call a convention under Article V for the purpose of adding a bill of Rights among other things. Madison’s letter, sent to George Lee Turberville, who represented Richmond County in the Virginia House of Delegates, was in response to a letter written by Mr. Turberville regarding the Anti-Federalists call for a convention under Article V. Keep in mind at this point in time, the necessary number of states having ratified the Constitution, it replaced the Articles of Confederation and any proposed convention to be constitutional, would have to take place under Article V



    On March 4, 1789 the Constitution went into effect and the Anti-Federalist in New York and Virginia kept pushing for a second convention under Article V. On May 5th 1789, a formal application was presented to the House of Representatives by Mr. Bland calling for a convention under Article V to consider "the defects of this Constitution that have been suggested by the state Conventions, and report such amendments thereto, as they shall find best suited to promote our common interests, and secure to ourselves and our latest posterity, the great and unalienable rights of mankind."___LINK

    Mr. Bland goes on to say “The application now before the committee contains a number of reasons why it is necessary to call a convention. By the fifth article of the Constitution, Congress are obligated to order this convention when two-thirds of the Legislatures apply for it . . . “___LINK



    The bottom line is, Madison’s letter to Mr. Turberville expressed his fears of a second convention being called under Article V, and his reasons are as valid today as when he stated them to Mr. Turberville, and even more so today!

    Let us take another look at some of his reasons:

    . If a General Convention were to take place for the avowed and sole purpose of revising the Constitution, it would naturally consider itself as having a greater latitude than the Congress appointed to administer and support as well as to amend the system; it would consequently give greater agitation to the public mind; an election into it would be courted by the most violent partizans on both sides; it wd. probably consist of the most heterogeneous characters; would be the very focus of that flame which has already too much heated men of all parties; would no doubt contain individuals of insidious views, who under the mask of seeking alterations popular in some parts but inadmissible in other parts of the Union might have a dangerous opportunity of sapping the very foundations of the fabric.”


    I hope the above documentation sheds new light on this issue for you and anyone else concerning Madison’s letter to George Lee Turberville, dated November 2, 1788.

    Regards,

    JWK


    “Honest money and honest taxation, the Key to America’s future Prosperity“ ___ from “Prosperity Restored by the State Rate Tax Plan”, no longer in print.

    Last edited by johnwk; February 13th, 2015 at 10:55 pm.

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  5. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by johnwk View Post
    .

    The threshold of needing nine states’ approval for our existing Constitution to become law was satisfied on June 21, 1787 when New Hampshire ratified it and meet the nine state threshold. Virginia followed with its ratification on June 26th 1788, a year later, and New York, which you mention above, ratified the Constitution on July 26th, 1788, also a year after New Hampshire ratified the Constitution. This accounted for eleven states having ratified the Constitution. Rhode Island and North Carolina were the two remaining states which did not yet ratify the Constitution.

    During this time period, [after eleven states had already ratified the Constitution] a group of Anti Federalists in New York and Virginia were still not satisfied with the Constitution even though New York and Virginia had ratified it, and they wanted to call another Convention to correct perceived deficiencies in the Constitution.

    Madison’s letter to George Lee Turberville was written on November 2, 1788, months after New York and Virginia had ratified the Constitution.

    After the Constitution had by ratified by eleven states a small group of Anti Federalists in New York and Virginia wanted to call a convention under Article V for the purpose of adding a bill of Rights among other things. Madison’s letter, sent to George Lee Turberville, who represented Richmond County in the Virginia House of Delegates, was in response to a letter written by Mr. Turberville regarding the Anti-Federalists call for a convention under Article V. Keep in mind at this point in time, the necessary number of states having ratified the Constitution, it replaced the Articles of Confederation and any proposed convention to be constitutional, would have to take place under Article V



    On March 4, 1789 the Constitution went into effect and the Anti-Federalist in New York and Virginia kept pushing for a second convention under Article V. On May 5th 1789, a formal application was presented to the House of Representatives by Mr. Bland calling for a convention under Article V to consider "the defects of this Constitution that have been suggested by the state Conventions, and report such amendments thereto, as they shall find best suited to promote our common interests, and secure to ourselves and our latest posterity, the great and unalienable rights of mankind."___LINK

    Mr. Bland goes on to say “The application now before the committee contains a number of reasons why it is necessary to call a convention. By the fifth article of the Constitution, Congress are obligated to order this convention when two-thirds of the Legislatures apply for it . . . “___LINK



    The bottom line is, Madison’s letter to Mr. Turberville expressed his fears of a second convention being called under Article V, and his reasons are as valid today as when he stated them to Mr. Turberville, and even more so today!

    Let us take another look at some of his reasons:

    . If a General Convention were to take place for the avowed and sole purpose of revising the Constitution, it would naturally consider itself as having a greater latitude than the Congress appointed to administer and support as well as to amend the system; it would consequently give greater agitation to the public mind; an election into it would be courted by the most violent partizans on both sides; it wd. probably consist of the most heterogeneous characters; would be the very focus of that flame which has already too much heated men of all parties; would no doubt contain individuals of insidious views, who under the mask of seeking alterations popular in some parts but inadmissible in other parts of the Union might have a dangerous opportunity of sapping the very foundations of the fabric.”


    I hope the above documentation sheds new light on this issue for you and anyone else concerning Madison’s letter to George Lee Turberville, dated November 2, 1788.

    Regards,

    JWK


    “Honest money and honest taxation, the Key to America’s future Prosperity“ ___ from “Prosperity Restored by the State Rate Tax Plan”, no longer in print.

    Again read the damn first chapter of the book. You seem to refuse to understand what Levin is talking about.
    Jesus loves you.

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  7. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thanatos144 View Post
    Again read the damn first chapter of the book. You seem to refuse to understand what Levin is talking about.

    If you have something to quote from "the book", post it here and I will address it. I spent, hundreds, perhaps thousands of hours in the 1980s and 90s researching our countries' founding from original source material found at the University of Maryland's Mckeldin library. And I have my own library which includes Madison's Notes, the Federalist and Anti-Federalist Papers, the complete Elliot's' Debates, and much more.


    JWK



    “Honest money and honest taxation, the Key to America’s future Prosperity“ ___ from “Prosperity Restored by the State Rate Tax Plan”, no longer in print.


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  9. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by johnwk View Post
    If you have something to quote from "the book", post it here and I will address it. I spent, hundreds, perhaps thousands of hours in the 1980s and 90s researching our countries' founding from original source material found at the University of Maryland's Mckeldin library. And I have my own library which includes Madison's Notes, the Federalist and Anti-Federalist Papers, the complete Elliot's' Debates, and much more.


    JWK



    “Honest money and honest taxation, the Key to America’s future Prosperity“ ___ from “Prosperity Restored by the State Rate Tax Plan”, no longer in print.

    Go to Levins social sites he has it there to read for free .

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  14. #52
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    What the Anti-Article V supporters do not understand is that it is even in the Declaration of Independence. Though written a decade prior to the Constitution, it is in there.

    We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the RIGHT OF THE PEOPLE TO ALTER OR TO ABOLISH IT, AND TO INSTITUTE NEW GOVERNMENT, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness (emphasis mine)

    Let me break it down for you here:

    alter = via Article V
    abolish = via revolution


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  16. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thanatos144 View Post

    Quote Originally Posted by johnwk View Post
    Why are you asking me those questions? I do not support calling a convention under Article V, and for some of the same reasons which Madison gave:


    “You wish to know my sentiments on the project of another general Convention as suggested by New York. I shall give them to you with great frankness …….3. If a General Convention were to take place for the avowed and sole purpose of revising the Constitution, it would naturally consider itself as having a greater latitude than the Congress appointed to administer and support as well as to amend the system; it would consequently give greater agitation to the public mind; an election into it would be courted by the most violent partizans on both sides; it wd. probably consist of the most heterogeneous characters; would be the very focus of that flame which has already too much heated men of all parties; would no doubt contain individuals of insidious views, who under the mask of seeking alterations popular in some parts but inadmissible in other parts of the Union might have a dangerous opportunity of sapping the very foundationsof the fabric. Under all these circumstances it seems scarcely to be presumeable that the deliberations of the body could be conducted in harmony, or terminate in the general good. Having witnessed the difficulties and dangers experienced by the first Convention which assembled under every propitious circumstance, I should tremble for the result of a Second, meeting in the present temper of America, and under all the disadvantages I have mentioned. ….I am Dr. Sir, Yours Js. Madison Jr” ___See Letters of Delegates to Congress: Volume 25 March 1, 1788-December 31, 1789, James Madison to George Turberville



    JWK



    “Honest money and honest taxation, the Key to America’s future Prosperity“ ___ from “Prosperity Restored by the State Rate Tax Plan”, no longer in print.


    Madison isn't the only founder. You need to read the first chapter of levins book because you keep harping on The same wrong Thing
    No. I don't need to read anyone's "book". I am one of the few posting in this forum who has actually read and carefully studied the day to day debates during which time our Constitution was being framed and ratified, and this includes Madison's Notes on the convention, the Federalists and Anti-Federalist papers, Elliot's Debates, and a wealth of other contemporary pertinent material.

    I have posted a number of objections to calling a convention in this thread which articulate some of the dangers involved, and to this date there has not been any good answers to deal with these very real threats. There has be an abundance of misdirection's, obfuscations and inaccurate assumptions posted, but no good answers to the specific dangers, including those stated by Madison.


    JWK



    To support Jeb Bush is to support our Global Governance crowd and their WTO, NAFTA, GATT, and CAFTA, all used to circumvent America First trade policies, while fattening the fortunes of international corporate giants who have no allegiance to America or any nation.


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  18. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by RickBulow1974 View Post
    What the Anti-Article V supporters do not understand is that it is even in the Declaration of Independence. Though written a decade prior to the Constitution, it is in there.

    We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the RIGHT OF THE PEOPLE TO ALTER OR TO ABOLISH IT, AND TO INSTITUTE NEW GOVERNMENT, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness (emphasis mine)

    Let me break it down for you here:

    alter = via Article V
    abolish = via revolution

    That is one of the most absurd posts I have seen in a while. Of course we the people have a right "TO ALTER OR TO ABOLISH IT, AND TO INSTITUTE NEW GOVERNMENT", but I can assure you sir, should a convention be called under Article V, "we the people" will not be in attendance at that convention, nor in control over what occurs during the convention, or be in charge of what is approved or disapproved by the convention!

    At least, at this point in time, true patriots can point to our existing Constitution and quote the various provisions which are being violated and result in our miseries. In other words, my friend, the fault lies not in our existing Constitution, but in a failure of the people to rise up and demand its provisions be observed by those who took and oath to support and defend it.

    As I write this to you, a number of those running to be our next president, and notably those who claim to be "conservatives' and who claim to support our Constitution such as Marco Rubio, Ted Cruz, and Rand Paul, are in favor of allowing our President to exercise Congress' exclusive power to formulate regulations of commerce with foreign nations and then allow Congress to exercise a veto over deals which the president cooks up. Of course, this is a complete reversal of our president's and Congress' constitutionally assigned duties [Fast Track Trade Promotion Authority].

    My point is, the very people who now ignore our written Constitution at the federal and state level will be in complete charge should a second convention be called. And you think they will not seize the opportunity to make constitutional the tyranny they now rain down upon the people which is now totally unconstitutional?

    Let me assure you, neither Mark Levin, me, or you would be at a convention should one be called. But every snake on earth, including our global governance crowd, will find their seat at a convention should one be called, and likewise be in attendance to ratify whatever evil is dreamed up during a convention.


    And if you do not believe there is a global governance crowd check out the Council on Foreign Relations Global Governance Page: Global Governance Crowd



    Also, check out the Council on Foreign Relations’ Membership Roster

    Council on Foreign Relations’ Membership Roster

    Chelsea Clinton
    William J. Clinton


    JWK
    Last edited by johnwk; June 13th, 2017 at 8:45 am. Reason: fixed link

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  20. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by johnwk View Post
    No. I don't need to read anyone's "book". I am one of the few posting in this forum who has actually read and carefully studied the day to day debates during which time our Constitution was being framed and ratified, and this includes Madison's Notes on the convention, the Federalists and Anti-Federalist papers, Elliot's Debates, and a wealth of other contemporary pertinent material.

    I have posted a number of objections to calling a convention in this thread which articulate some of the dangers involved, and to this date there has not been any good answers to deal with these very real threats. There has be an abundance of misdirection's, obfuscations and inaccurate assumptions posted, but no good answers to the specific dangers, including those stated by Madison.


    JWK



    To support Jeb Bush is to support our Global Governance crowd and their WTO, NAFTA, GATT, and CAFTA, all used to circumvent America First trade policies, while fattening the fortunes of international corporate giants who have no allegiance to America or any nation.

    So in other words facts dont mean **** to you and thus your positions are not worth thought.
    Jesus loves you.

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  22. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thanatos144 View Post
    So in other words facts dont mean **** to you and thus your positions are not worth thought.
    Is that your insulting post for the day and misrepresentation of what I actually posted?

    JWK

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  24. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by johnwk View Post
    No. I don't need to read anyone's "book".
    I have the urge to ROFL with this one. This forum is dedicated to whom? ... I'll give you a hint. Mark Levin. If you don't read his books you are in no position to argue against his position. Contrary to what you may believe, this isn't the JWL Rant forum. Trying to turn the comments of the moment into commandments written in stone never to be challenged ever (Madison was no Hari Sheldon and even the fictional character wasn't perfect either) or trying to divine what they would think of the present situation is nonsense bordering on insanity.

    And frankly I don't care what elitist credentials you have. If you are right, get your own radio show. Publish your own books. Put up or shut up.


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  26. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by johnwk View Post
    Is that your insulting post for the day and misrepresentation of what I actually posted?

    JWK
    Seeing as you don't want to know the facts tells everyone I am not misrepresentin anything

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  28. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roxiebell View Post
    Since you need 3/4's of the States (38) any various other States in concert/cahoots with the Feds would be the minority and they wouldn't matter in the process and if at least 38 States are not on board to limit the Feds then the Convention won't happen.
    Could members of the Convention bribe State Legislatures into submission, e.g., promising the federal government will assume state debts such as unfunded state pension funds? Almost every state pension fund is a ticking time bomb.


    JWK





    American citizens are sick and tired of being made into tax-slaves to finance a maternity ward for the poverty stricken populations of other countries who invade our borders to give birth.


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    Default Our global governance crowd has promoted an Article V Convention for decades

    One clue that calling a convention under Article V is a very dangerous idea is that Bill Clinton, who gave us the NAFTA, has been a big fan of calling a con con for years.


    Aside from that I suggest those interested in the subject study: THE CONSTITUTIONAL CONVENTION CON


    ” In 1980, the committee on the constitutional System (the CCS) came together in D.C. It was comprised of globalists, internationalists and career politicians. The CCS was founded by members of the Council on Foreign Relations and Trilateral Commission (TC) and funded by Ford, Rockefeller, American Express and Hewlett Foundations Their directors were nearly all CFR and TC members. Those involved included former Attorney General Thornburgh, former Secretary of the Treasury Brady, sitting Senators like Kassebaum, Moynihan and Hollings, and the wealthy and influential Robert McNamara, William Fulbright and Douglas Dillon, among others.”


    Indeed, to support the call for a convention under Article V is not only to support the Clintons’, it is also giving support to our Global Governance Crowd and their Fast Track Trade Promotion Authority, WTO, NAFTA, GATT, CAFTA, Trans-Pacific Partnership (TPP) deal and the PARIS AGREEMENT ___ all used to circumvent America First trade policies, while fattening the fortunes of Bill and Hillary Clinton’s international corporate giant donors who have no allegiance to America or any nation.


    JWK


    At the close of the Constitutional Convention in Philadelphia on September 18, 1787, a Mrs. Powel anxiously awaited the results and as Benjamin Franklin emerged from the long task now finished asked him directly, `Well, Doctor, what have we got? A republic or a monarchy?' `A republic, if you can keep it,' responded Franklin.

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