Mandatory Retreat Poll

[texashusker34]

Yeah, you can tell how well it works by how there are no gangs whatsoever in Texas, no bikers, no bangers, nothing.

Gangs don't come into my neighborhood. They stay on the South East side of Houston for the most part.

[Guvnah]

I voted no.

And if there were a mandatory retreat law, it would be the impetus for me finally to go out and get a handgun.

[Gaetano "Tommy" Lucchese]

I voted no.

And if there were a mandatory retreat law, it would be the impetus for me finally to go out and get a handgun.

Pretty much every state in the nation has a duty to retreat part of their self-defense law. That's where this whole stand your ground nonsense comes from.

People apparently don't understand what it means.

[Gaetano "Tommy" Lucchese]

That doesnt include all forcible felonies. You are proving my point.

So, violence against yourself or others is covered, then specifically kidnapping, robbery, sodomy and rape, and even burglary. What forcible felonies are they leaving out exactly?

[Gaetano "Tommy" Lucchese]

This is the law I was looking at.

http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes/.../0776.013.html

Chip's doing his thing where he focuses in on one tiny thing and nitpicks it to death. The thing in this case being New York State's self-defense laws, which are bar none the most restrictive in the country.

He doesn't want to admit that his "mandatory retreat" thing isn't true.

[texashusker34]

I know someone else mentioned it earlier, but I would rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6. If you confront me, I am a CHL holder and I WILL err on the side of caution and protecting my family. I will not retreat from you and I will not hesitate to pull the trigger. My family is far more important than the life of a criminal that's trying to rob me at best, kill my family at worst. There is absolutely no reason in my mind that I should retreat from a criminal unless I'm retreating in an attempt to defend my family.

We go downtown to feed the homeless about once a month. I never expect to have to use my gun, but should confrontation come, the instructions are my family retreat, I stand my ground. In the retreating process, my wife retrieves her gun and mine is always a few seconds from concealment to use. As soon as I determine hostile intent I will pull and fire. If the person is just a harmless guy that doesn't understand his actions as being aggressive, I have a conversation with him and explain that he needs to think before rushing up to someone. That's happened twice and both were very quick to back away when I stood my ground as they recognized very quickly that I took on a defensive posture and the family was backing away. It's easy to tell because my hand is on my gun in concealment.

I believe standing your ground without pulling from concealment will stop almost all hostile actions towards you. I think retreating shows weakness and invites the attack. Forcing people to retreat is a bad idea and I believe it invites the attack. A show of force, hand behind your back and a stern warning "Far Enough", "Stop", etc... will be enough to deter most criminals in my opinion. Criminals want easy targets, trained individuals that react with a show of strength usually ends the incident without shots fired. Maybe I just think differently because I'm ex-military and have been through a lot of self defense training.

[AmericanFirst]

I think the forcible felony stuff is very questionable. That essentially allows you to become an executioner against anyone you feel is committing a crime.

Deadly force laws are very clear. They apply to citizens as well as peace offficers. Use of deadly force is not authorized if the threat stops. So no, it does not allow anyone to be an executioner.

[Drawz]

I know someone else mentioned it earlier, but I would rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6. If you confront me, I am a CHL holder and I WILL err on the side of caution and protecting my family. I will not retreat from you and I will not hesitate to pull the trigger. My family is far more important than the life of a criminal that's trying to rob me at best, kill my family at worst. There is absolutely no reason in my mind that I should retreat from a criminal unless I'm retreating in an attempt to defend my family.

We go downtown to feed the homeless about once a month. I never expect to have to use my gun, but should confrontation come, the instructions are my family retreat, I stand my ground. In the retreating process, my wife retrieves her gun and mine is always a few seconds from concealment to use. As soon as I determine hostile intent I will pull and fire. If the person is just a harmless guy that doesn't understand his actions as being aggressive, I have a conversation with him and explain that he needs to think before rushing up to someone. That's happened twice and both were very quick to back away when I stood my ground as they recognized very quickly that I took on a defensive posture and the family was backing away. It's easy to tell because my hand is on my gun in concealment.

I believe standing your ground without pulling from concealment will stop almost all hostile actions towards you. I think retreating shows weakness and invites the attack. Forcing people to retreat is a bad idea and I believe it invites the attack. A show of force, hand behind your back and a stern warning "Far Enough", "Stop", etc... will be enough to deter most criminals in my opinion. Criminals want easy targets, trained individuals that react with a show of strength usually ends the incident without shots fired. Maybe I just think differently because I'm ex-military and have been through a lot of self defense training.

Can you point me to a law that forces people to retreat when their lives are in danger? Cause I haven't seen one yet.

[Samm]

Yes but whats more likely to cause you arm: getting closer to him or getting further away. If your already behind solid cover then perhaps staying put is the best course if retreating will take you out of cover. Otherwise retreating is by far safer than staying put and returning fire (your not likely going to hit either) or advancing.

I don't really know about that if shot are flying toward you randomly, but I do know that one or two well placed shots in return are going to stop any more bullets from coming your way.

[Samm]

I think the forcible felony stuff is very questionable. That essentially allows you to become an executioner against anyone you feel is committing a crime.

No it does not. What part of "forceable" are you not understanding?

[Samm]

Nope. As a general statement, I am greatly in favor of SYG.

However, I think we need to take a look at how it is actually playing out.

Playing out? What statistic will satisfy you that the law works against the bad guys and is not excusing cold blooded murderers?

[Samm]

Pretty much every state in the nation has a duty to retreat part of their self-defense law. That's where this whole stand your ground nonsense comes from.

People apparently don't understand what it means.

By "people" I assume you mean you.

[birddog1]

Nope. As a general statement, I am greatly in favor of SYG.

However, I think we need to take a look at how it is actually playing out.

Personally I don't think there are any current flaws with SYG laws. In my opinion the flaw most likely to be exploited by nefarious people is the section of most states self defense law that allow an aggressor to latter claim self-defense in certain circumstances. To me most current self defense laws give criminals too much wiggle room with which they could mount a legal defense for self defense or try to regain the upper hand in a confrontation with an innocent person. Unfortunately I don't have a good solution that would keep the balance from tipping too far to the other side and allowing on the spot executions in some cases.

I do think it would reduce the number of confrontations if people knew that they would be charged with some type of crime if they facilitated a confrontation in which their actions would have justified use of force against them and someone else dies as a result, no matter what transpires in-between.

[ZoidBoig]

Although this is Florida law im quoting, here is a list of forcible felonies

Forcible felony” means treason; murder; manslaughter; sexual battery; carjacking; home-invasion robbery; robbery; burglary; arson; kidnapping; aggravated assault; aggravated battery; aggravated stalking; aircraft piracy; unlawful throwing, placing, or discharging of a destructive device or bomb; and any other felony which involves the use or threat of physical force or violence against any individual.

http://www.flsenate.gov/laws/statutes/2011/776.08

Every single one of those, with possible exception to Treason (aggravated stalking includes threats, so that would qualify) is covered as self defense in that law that Tommy quoted.