School Choice (Voucher) is not the solution to the public education debacle

[RWReaganfan]

You are trying to make a point by pulling random stats which may very well be outliers. Math without economics is just math. I do know what I'm talking about or at least you haven't proved otherwise.

Random stats? Where did I cite any stats?

I said your assumptions about not being able to attract teachers to teach upper level classes was pure hokum, and it is.

Economics without math is impossible. Have a nice day!

[Tigerdrafted]

Random stats? Where did I cite any stats?

I said your assumptions about not being able to attract teachers to teach upper level classes was pure hokum, and it is.

Economics without math is impossible. Have a nice day!

Are you denying that public education doesn't have a problem with teachers teaching outside their field of expertise? Hence my point?

[RWReaganfan]

Are you denying that public education doesn't have a problem with teachers teaching outside their field of expertise? Hence my point?

It depends on what you define as out of their field of expertise. In the last 10 years or so, the federal government instituted restrictions on their funding forcing states into requiring teachers be "highly-qualified" (Thank you NCLB!). I know that in my state, if you are NOT highly qualified to teach a subject, you become unemployed very quickly. I happen to hold 4 different teacher certifications, like many of my colleagues. I teach math, but my BA degree in in history, but I have had the exact same coursework as someone having a degree in mathematics, so I am considered highly qualified in both areas.

A much larger problem is starting to develop where districts with tenure do not renew contracts of teachers getting close to tenure so they can hire less experienced teachers and pay them less.

Also, when changing from one district to another, they do not give full credit for teaching experience. My present district shorted me 5 years of experience, giving me credit for only 10 years instead of the 15 years I have been a teacher. I took a $7000 pay cut this year when changing schools. That combined, with horrendously low salaries in some states (like Florida), I would have to take another $15,000 a year pay cut to return and teach there, so it is NOT happening. That is their loss.

[Tigerdrafted]

It depends on what you define as out of their field of expertise. In the last 10 years or so, the federal government instituted restrictions on their funding forcing states into requiring teachers be "highly-qualified" (Thank you NCLB!). I know that in my state, if you are NOT highly qualified to teach a subject, you become unemployed very quickly. I happen to hold 4 different teacher certifications, like many of my colleagues. I teach math, but my BA degree in in history, but I have had the exact same coursework as someone having a degree in mathematics, so I am considered highly qualified in both areas.

A much larger problem is starting to develop where districts with tenure do not renew contracts of teachers getting close to tenure so they can hire less experienced teachers and pay them less.

Also, when changing from one district to another, they do not give full credit for teaching experience. My present district shorted me 5 years of experience, giving me credit for only 10 years instead of the 15 years I have been a teacher. I took a $7000 pay cut this year when changing schools. That combined, with horrendously low salaries in some states (like Florida), I would have to take another $15,000 a year pay cut to return and teach there, so it is NOT happening. That is their loss.

I have no problem with teachers being qualified. If this were a market system, parents would require that. In an ideal market the public school system would have to pay more for teachers who are in short supply such as math and science majors. I would do a back flip if I heard there are more math and science major teachers coming out of college than their are other majors.

Expertise carries a long way in a persons ability to explain complexities in a manner that the average student can understand.

If the government cut public education, teachers would have to look for work in a private school. The education bubble would burst. There would be many teachers out of work but the private education system would grow. In time private educators would be paid hansom salaries and they would all be experts in their field.

[RWReaganfan]

I have no problem with teachers being qualified. If this were a market system, parents would require that. In an ideal market the public school system would have to pay more for teachers who are in short supply such as math and science majors. I would do a back flip if I heard there are more math and science major teachers coming out of college than their are other majors.

Expertise carries a long way in a persons ability to explain complexities in a manner that the average student can understand.

If the government cut public education, teachers would have to look for work in a private school. The education bubble would burst. There would be many teachers out of work but the private education system would grow. In time private educators would be paid hansom salaries and they would all be experts in their field.

The real problem with not getting more math and science major teachers is that the private sector pays more for those people than schools will ever come close to paying. I left the military and took a $30,000 a year pay cut to become a teacher.

That's a great theory about cutting public education, except for the fact that it will not ever happen. Now what do you propose?

[LittleNipper]

The real problem with not getting more math and science major teachers is that the private sector pays more for those people than schools will ever come close to paying. I left the military and took a $30,000 a year pay cut to become a teacher.

That's a great theory about cutting public education, except for the fact that it will not ever happen. Now what do you propose?

The fact is that many who teach in "Christian schools" earn far less -- monetarily speaking, than most of their Public School counterparts. As for taking a $30,00 dollar a year pay cut when you left the military, you didn't suggest that such militay pay might be excessive...

[historynut]

The real problem with not getting more math and science major teachers is that the private sector pays more for those people than schools will ever come close to paying. I left the military and took a $30,000 a year pay cut to become a teacher.

That's a great theory about cutting public education, except for the fact that it will not ever happen. Now what do you propose?

Try to find out how private schools that pay less then public schools are able to get math and science major teachers?

[RWReaganfan]

The fact is that many who teach in "Christian schools" earn far less -- monetarily speaking, than most of their Public School counterparts. As for taking a $30,00 dollar a year pay cut when you left the military, you didn't suggest that such militay pay might be excessive...

Those in the Christian schools are paid what they a worth in most cases, which is very little! Public school teachers are certified by a rigorous process and the personal expense to get that certification is also very high.

No, military pay is not excessive considering the working hours, dangerous working conditions, and being away from family about 70% of the time. My job would have easily earned 6 figures on the outside.

[RWReaganfan]

Try to find out how private schools that pay less then public schools are able to get math and science major teachers?

That is easy. They don't.

[historynut]

That is easy. They don't.

Then how are private schools able to get accreditation?

If private schools not able to get math and science major teachers then why are the accrediting agencies giving them accreditation?

[RWReaganfan]

Then how are private schools able to get accreditation?

If private schools not able to get math and science major teachers then why are the accrediting agencies giving them accreditation?

They have their own private school accreditation providers that do not really care one way or the other. It is the case of the fox guarding the henhouse all too often in unregulated academia.

[LittleNipper]

Those in the Christian schools are paid what they a worth in most cases, which is very little! Public school teachers are certified by a rigorous process and the personal expense to get that certification is also very high.

No, military pay is not excessive considering the working hours, dangerous working conditions, and being away from family about 70% of the time. My job would have easily earned 6 figures on the outside.

Many that work in Christian Schools are there because they feel a calling from God, and see spritual needs, as well as, an educational one. Many that are in the military are there because they wish to serve and protect their country and care little for gratuity. But it could also be argued that military training itself is an eduction, building both character and motivation. And frankly, unless one is willing to become an entrepreneur or even a doctor, such 6 figure positions are few and far between in the private sector. I might also add, that my wife is certified to teach grammer school in both Pennsylvania and New Jersey, and yet she chose to teach in a Christian school. That was her perogative, as it now is for any American military man at this present time.

[historynut]

They have their own private school accreditation providers that do not really care one way or the other. It is the case of the fox guarding the henhouse all too often in unregulated academia.

The major colleges across the U.S. that accept the private school accreditation (Yale, M.I.T. etc) must not really care one way or the other either.

Just because you do not like private school does not mean they can not teach. They work hard to get and keep accreditation.

I do like your "unregulated academia", since the state sets the standards for private schools (K-12) it doesn't seem very unregulated to me.

[RWReaganfan]

The major colleges across the U.S. that accept the private school accreditation (Yale, M.I.T. etc) must not really care one way or the other either.

Just because you do not like private school does not mean they can not teach. They work hard to get and keep accreditation.

I do like your "unregulated academia", since the state sets the standards for private schools (K-12) it doesn't seem very unregulated to me.

Wrong answer. Do you honestly think that states regulate private schools?

When are you going to get an education in education?

Get out of your little corner of the world and maybe you will realize that everything you have seen doesn't carry over to the rest of the real world.

[RWReaganfan]

Many that work in Christian Schools are there because they feel a calling from God, and see spritual needs, as well as, an educational one. Many that are in the military are there because they wish to serve and protect their country and care little for gratuity. But it could also be argued that military training itself is an eduction, building both character and motivation. And frankly, unless one is willing to become an entrepreneur or even a doctor, such 6 figure positions are few and far between in the private sector. I might also add, that my wife is certified to teach grammer school in both Pennsylvania and New Jersey, and yet she chose to teach in a Christian school. That was her perogative, as it now is for any American military man at this present time.

While what you say is true for some people in Christian schools, the vast majority of private schools provide an education that is acceptable, and not stellar. The high profile private schools mostly do an excellent job, but the fact remains that they teach with persons who are not subject to the same standards as public school students.

I can walk into just about any private school in the nation and they could have me teach chemistry and physics, but not in any public school. I do not hold the certifications in those areas for public schools, but private schools often could not care less.