The Reformation and its Five Solas

[Meriweather]

Bump............

Since there has been much discussion about faith and good works, I was wanting to get some thoughts on that last paragraph

Biblical justification must be earnestly defended on two fronts. No-lordship theology (the error we dealt with in the November/December issue of Pulpit) twists the doctrine of justification by faith to support the view that obedience to God's moral law is optional. This teaching attempts to reduce the whole of God's saving work to the declarative act of justification. It downplays the spiritual rebirth of regeneration (2 Cor. 5:17); it discounts the moral effects of the believer's new heart (Ezek. 36:26-27); and it makes sanctification hinge on the believer's own efforts. It tends to treat the forensic element of justification--God's act of declaring the believing sinner righteous--as if this were the only essential aspect of salvation. The inevitable effect of this approach is to turn the grace of God into licentiousness (Jude 4). Such a view is called antinomianism.

Okay, let me give this a try. First of all, sanctification does hinge on the believer's own efforts. This is the same problem I have with the five Solas--the "God Does it All" philosophy. Shouldn't we mull over the part where each of us should work out our salvation with fear and trembling?

I'll say again, I do not discount God's part or fail to credit Him--but we don't need to worry about God's part, rather we need to be concerned about our own. If our lives are to be lived for the glory of God (final Sola), we need to take a hands on approach. I don't think "Since I have faith, naturally works will be produced" is at all accurate. I think we need to take a hard look at Jesus and the fig tree. The fig tree produced really nice leaves, looked really healthy--but when one expected a harvest, no fruit was to be had. It took extra work for the tree to produce. In other words, "Just because I'm a fig tree is no guarantee that I will produce figs." Likewise, "Just because I have faith is no guarantee that I will produce works." It takes extra effort.

Prayer, fasting, good works, sacrifice are all aids to sanctification. Physically, if all is not well with our diet and digestive system, nutrients cannot be effectively absorbed. I think of sanctification in much the same way. Without prayer, fasting, sacrifice...sanctification cannot be absorbed.

You can see the same old trend I've exhibited throughout the entire thread. I do not believe in a one-way street that leads from God to man, with nothing returning. I believe it is two way where both God and man have to connect with each other. Try looking at it this way. If a parent provides his child with many clothes, the clothes certainly are the gifts of the parent. However, if the child chooses to run around naked, the clothes are of no use. The child must accept and use the gifts before the parent has a well-dressed child. Likewise, we must accept and use the gift of faith before God has a faithful child.

[Meriweather]

Yeah I would agree with that too..........

He can do what He wants though, at any time and place.

I do not believe God can be caught off guard, or that anything ever happens that he don't know about.

I take it a step further. I don't think God needs to know things beforehand in order to be on top of the situation.

[jwil59]

I take it a step further. I don't think God needs to know things beforehand in order to be on top of the situation.

God does not need anything, I agree..........

IMHO He is on top of it.

[jwil59]

Okay, let me give this a try. First of all, sanctification does hinge on the believer's own efforts. This is the same problem I have with the five Solas--the "God Does it All" philosophy. Shouldn't we mull over the part where each of us should work out our salvation with fear and trembling?

I'll say again, I do not discount God's part or fail to credit Him--but we don't need to worry about God's part, rather we need to be concerned about our own. If our lives are to be lived for the glory of God (final Sola), we need to take a hands on approach. I don't think "Since I have faith, naturally works will be produced" is at all accurate. I think we need to take a hard look at Jesus and the fig tree. The fig tree produced really nice leaves, looked really healthy--but when one expected a harvest, no fruit was to be had. It took extra work for the tree to produce. In other words, "Just because I'm a fig tree is no guarantee that I will produce figs." Likewise, "Just because I have faith is no guarantee that I will produce works." It takes extra effort.

Prayer, fasting, good works, sacrifice are all aids to sanctification. Physically, if all is not well with our diet and digestive system, nutrients cannot be effectively absorbed. I think of sanctification in much the same way. Without prayer, fasting, sacrifice...sanctification cannot be absorbed.

You can see the same old trend I've exhibited throughout the entire thread. I do not believe in a one-way street that leads from God to man, with nothing returning. I believe it is two way where both God and man have to connect with each other. Try looking at it this way. If a parent provides his child with many clothes, the clothes certainly are the gifts of the parent. However, if the child chooses to run around naked, the clothes are of no use. The child must accept and use the gifts before the parent has a well-dressed child. Likewise, we must accept and use the gift of faith before God has a faithful child.

Thanks Meri......

It isn't like a reformer does not think good works are to be done, but that they are separate from the justification process.

From the article:

As soon as justification is fused with sanctification, works of righteousness become an essential part of the process. Faith is thus diluted with works. Sola fide is abandoned. This was the error of the Galatian legalists (cf. Gal. 2:16; 5:4). Paul called it "a different gospel" (Gal. 1:6, 9). The same error is found in virtually every false cult. It's the main error of Roman Catholicism. I'm concerned that it may also be the direction many who are enthralled with "the New Perspective on Paul" are traveling. [1]

That was the point I wanted to make with that

[Meriweather]

Thanks Meri......

It isn't like a reformer does not think good works are to be done, but that they are separate from the justification process.

From the article:

As soon as justification is fused with sanctification, works of righteousness become an essential part of the process. Faith is thus diluted with works. Sola fide is abandoned. This was the error of the Galatian legalists (cf. Gal. 2:16; 5:4). Paul called it "a different gospel" (Gal. 1:6, 9). The same error is found in virtually every false cult. It's the main error of Roman Catholicism. I'm concerned that it may also be the direction many who are enthralled with "the New Perspective on Paul" are traveling. [1]

That was the point I wanted to make with that

Clearly I believe the article is in error, but I can't discuss this with him, he's not a Hannity member. Paul is addressing the Law, noting that the Law, while a measuring stick, cannot absolve us from sin. Absolving from sin is a work of God.

Penance cannot absolve us from sin, either, but this does not mean we should not do penance. It is right and just that we offer God our contrition, just as it is right and just that we follow the Commandments given to us.

Works do not dilute. God has expectations of us, and Jesus clearly lists these in the beatitudes and also his discourse where he concludes, "Whenever you have done this to the least of my brethern, you have done them for me."

[Long Island Bob]

You are correct, they are the God inspired words of the Apostle Paul........

Ephesians 2:8-9 speak directly to justification by Grace through faith in Jesus Christ

Read it again.
Ephesians 2 is one of the chapters that most directly opposes sole fida.

It speaks directly to the fact that the Ephesian Christian Community stopped behaving badly only after they were graced with faith.

According to Ephesians 2
- God's grace caused them to have faith
- their Faith led them to engage in proper deeds and stop sinning (they had been fond of sins of the flesh)
- their new-found proper deeds will lead them to salvation
- Jesus was sent so that all who engage in proper deeds (even Jews who do not believe in the divinity of Jesus) may attain salvation.

[Abe]

I propose a l'chaim to Abe..........With good domestic beer or maybe a glass of California cabernet

What's the occasion? Never mind, I'll drink to it. Coffee anyone?

[tulsatech]

Quite frankly I care less about your motivation that the fact that you are doing them.

I belive if someone doesn't do good works, they won't be saved.

From what you say above, you belive that if someone (or yourself) is not doing good works, they haven't been saved.

At the end of the day, there really is no difference. Saved people are doing good works, unsaved people are not. I think we would all do well to not worry about other people's motivations and instead just continue to love them and leave the judgement of their souls in God's hands.

That's fine by me.

[tulsatech]

Can you prove that?


If you are wishing to broker a cease fire here then stop telling me I don't need to do works.

Good works are the evidence of salvation. They are not "proof" per se. But one can assume another person is "saved" based on their good deeds. Personally, I look for the fruit that person produces. I don't think it's being a judgmental bigot to descern whether the fruit is good or bad.

[Abe]

Good works are the evidence of salvation. They are not "proof" per se. But one can assume another person is "saved" based on their good deeds. Personally, I look for the fruit that person produces. I don't think it's being a judgmental bigot to descern whether the fruit is good or bad.

What about those who do good works without being "saved"?

[Koushi Shinigami]

What about those who do good works without being "saved"?

"Good works are evidence of salvation" period. I don't look further than that.

[vir doctus]

What about those who do good works without being "saved"?

They are not good if not for the glory of God. (Just summarizing, don't shoot the messenger.)

[Abe]

"Good works are evidence of salvation" period. I don't look further than that.

I understand.

[Abe]

They are not good if not for the glory of God. (Just summarizing, don't shoot the messenger.)

Shooting messengers is no fun, (unless they're high-ranking ones).

[tulsatech]

What false ideas?

I'm gathering, when pressed, people do acknowledge there is more to Faith Alone than faith. When pressed, people do acknowledge there is more to Grace Alone than grace.

The false idea is in the meaning of "alone". We are talking about the functions of "grace," "faith," and how they function "alone". I work in an office with many people. However, I have a job function which I do "alone". No one else in my office does this particular job function. That's how I see the solas. Grace doesn't need faith in order to function as God intends. Faith doesn't need Grace in order for faith to function. They have two different functions. And while each can function on their own just fine, they both work together in the finished product. At least, that's one way to look at it.