Enough of the Math & Science Equine Feces

[merickson]

One significant difference between math/sciences and the humanities that the OP suggests is that math/science is grounded in physical reality and objective truth. It doesn't matter what your teacher thinks, and you can show the teacher that they are wrong.

As a college, I changed the "right" answer to a final more than once by showing that the answer that the prof was looking for was in fact wrong. (Mostly caused by the prof.s choice of words that changed the truth of an existence question.)

In the humanities on the other hand, the subject matter is subjective. I've had teachers tell me that they are right and the text book (and I) were wrong and there wasn't anything that I could do about it.

[historynut]

I never went beyond trig in high school, and I only took a basic algebra class in college to fulfill my gen eds...according to the math snobs, I'm probably a dumbass.

I don't think your a dumbass it all depends on what you are studying.

My problem is engineer's with degree's that said they know trig (or some other math) that do not even know the basics.

I seen people with degrees they say they have passed trig that don't even know trig is about triangles.

[jkm]

The state requirements are that College Algebra is a Gen Ed REQUIREMENT. Therefore I would have had to pass it in order to get a Degree.... So much for the premise that I "failed" math.

I'm simply not understanding this "My way or the highway" crowd when it comes to math. I honestly can't think of any college that DOESN'T have a math requirement. I also can't think of one where, if someone did fail a required course, they wouldn't have to retake it to get their diploma.

I myself got through a class in college called "Pre Calculus", which--Oh, my, this was like 25 years ago--if I remember correctly was a combination of trigonometry and analytic geometry. I went thru tutorials with the professor, as math wasn't my forte, but I passed with an average grade.

[jkm]

I do enjoy history, philosophy, and literature, though.

Me, too!

[buflineks]

I'm simply not understanding this "My way or the highway" crowd when it comes to math. I honestly can't think of any college that DOESN'T have a math requirement. I also can't think of one where, if someone did fail a required course, they wouldn't have to retake it to get their diploma..

I think jkm that they also fail to understand the position of the OP.

While there are certain areas of mathamatics that people use everyday, unless you are in a field that requires the upper level mathamatics, it is not going to be used very often.

My position is that an understanding of history as well as an understanding of U.S. Government is going to aid a person better, not only because they are affected by these things, but it will give them a stronger base from which to make competant decisions.

I'll give an ancedotal example that occured today;

I was doing my usual Supplemental Instruction for a a poli sci 121 class (American Government) There was a young man who is stuggling. He happens to be a Physics major. He doesn't understand why so little gets done in Congress. After going over how a bill becomes a law ( no I didn't use School House Rock's "I'm just a Bill") he sits there and can't comprehend why the process is so complicated. He doesn't understand the basis of "why" a Filabuster is allowed in the Senate Rules.
In addition he can't understand the concepts of Judicial Review, where it came from and how it applies to the current Health Care debate.

He informed me that "this" is "why" he never voted. I got the usual "it doesn't matter", this doesn't make any "logical sense".

Now while he'll probably go on to do something that involves an extreme amount of mathamatics, he will sit there bewildered as to "why" and "how" his government works and will continue to get his "opinion" from "internet news sources".

So this entire, "You've got to understand math to think critically" is a load of equine feces.

And just to be clear, in this class, those who are History, Poli Sci, CJ, and other Liberal Arts majors, don't have much of a problem in understanding the concepts. But those who focus on Science and Math are the ones who need to take advantage of Supplemental Instruction.

[vir doctus]

I think jkm that they also fail to understand the position of the OP.

While there are certain areas of mathamatics that people use everyday, unless you are in a field that requires the upper level mathamatics, it is not going to be used very often.

My position is that an understanding of history as well as an understanding of U.S. Government is going to aid a person better, not only because they are affected by these things, but it will give them a stronger base from which to make competant decisions.

I'll give an ancedotal example that occured today;

I was doing my usual Supplemental Instruction for a a poli sci 121 class (American Government) There was a young man who is stuggling. He happens to be a Physics major. He doesn't understand why so little gets done in Congress. After going over how a bill becomes a law ( no I didn't use School House Rock's "I'm just a Bill") he sits there and can't comprehend why the process is so complicated. He doesn't understand the basis of "why" a Filabuster is allowed in the Senate Rules.
In addition he can't understand the concepts of Judicial Review, where it came from and how it applies to the current Health Care debate.

He informed me that "this" is "why" he never voted. I got the usual "it doesn't matter", this doesn't make any "logical sense".

Now while he'll probably go on to do something that involves an extreme amount of mathamatics, he will sit there bewildered as to "why" and "how" his government works and will continue to get his "opinion" from "internet news sources".

So this entire, "You've got to understand math to think critically" is a load of equine feces.

And just to be clear, in this class, those who are History, Poli Sci, CJ, and other Liberal Arts majors, don't have much of a problem in understanding the concepts. But those who focus on Science and Math are the ones who need to take advantage of Supplemental Instruction.

Of course it comes as no surprise that I agree with you. If we do not have an informed and educated populace we will quickly destroy ourselves as a nation. However, I don't trust the public schools to properly educate in history or instill the obligation of citizenship in students. Math at the high school level should require the basics and consumer math; those with an aptitude should be allowed to go beyond. And if those with math and science inclinations had a strong liberal arts high school education, I would fully support dedicated university studies.

We've watered down K-12 wasting everybody's time and their money because now they have to shell out the big bucks to get in college what they could have been taught earlier.

[PhantomPholly]

No what is sad is since you are unable to actually hold the conversation and assert you're position so now you're trying to be the grammar police.

I'm sorry - in which post did YOU remind ME what the topic was? Oh, that's right - I had to keep reminding you.

I not only have job... I own my own business and it has prospered for the last decade.

You may thank our Founders for your opportunities - they were all well versed in Mathematics.

[PhantomPholly]

Wonder why I've been published then.....

Declining standards...

[PhantomPholly]

I never at any point said that people shouldn't learn "basic" mathamatics.

Then why are you arguing?

What's really funny is that you "think" that the point I'm making is unimportant, but the reality is, I do know what I talk about, and since I am educated and you haven't been able to dispute the OP, you just go on and evade and spin.

You are sitting in your chair spinning. The world appears to revolve. However, it's just you. My point is, and always has been, simple enough for an uneducated person (and, maybe your education is the problem here, not solution) to understand - that continuing the policy of having kids take math through high school is a good thing.

Well, it's a good thing you have google and wiki, cause if you didn't, you wouldn't be able to participate here on the forums. But you have proven a point of the OP, just because you know math, and can read wiki and google, doesn't mean that you can have a meaningful understanding of History and Government.

There you go imagining what I can and can't do and do and don't know again. You must be comforted to know you can ask yourself a question and always get an answer you approve of....

The problem with "geniuses" like you who "know history" is that most of them seem to draw the wrong conclusions from that "knowledge." That's because, lacking the fundamental reasoning skills, all books look to them to be equally authoritative - or they listen to their friends, who tell them "whose work they LIKE the most." So rather than concerning themselves with what is factual, they concern themselves with "who is the best story teller and makes me feel good." The downfall of that approach, of course, is that much of what is TRUE about reality is not what we want it to be. Karl Marx was and remains immensely popular; however no one has figured out how to accomplish anything resembling a "net good" from his philosophies.

All data is not information, something which is apparently not well taught in academic circles.

Now granted, Math won't give those skills to someone who lacks ability nor to someone more steeped in raising their emotional range of experience than concerning themselves with what is and is not factual in life.

But then again, neither will History...

And there's a history lesson for you.

[PhantomPholly]

I never went beyond trig in high school, and I only took a basic algebra class in college to fulfill my gen eds...according to the math snobs, I'm probably a dumbass.

If you got through trig you probably took math all the way through high school. I believe that that was all the basic premise of the thread recommended, vs. dropping the math requirement in high school.

[PhantomPholly]

Went back and re-read the OP. It still appears that Buflineks advocates for reducing the math requirement in high school (the post appears to discuss those preparing for entry into college), which I think is ridiculous. However, I will have to agree with one thing s/he said - that kids should be taught more about government.

I for one would like to see a return to the Civics courses of the 40's and 50's and before, when they taught every student clearly about our Constitution, and about the reasons every other government ever devised is inferior, and how they should guard against politicians playing lightly with what amounts to our only real protection from the sort of dictatorial behavior we are seeing from this current administration.

Supporting the continuation of math instruction does not infer a desire to reduce any other particular educational aspect, as some people seem to believe. However, as several other posters on this forum have pointed out, care needs to be taken when choosing a curricula that can be twisted into highly subjective data, lest we end up (as we are headed for now) just another incarnation of kings and royalty.

[vir doctus]

The problem with "geniuses" like you who "know history" is that most of them seem to draw the wrong conclusions from that "knowledge." That's because, lacking the fundamental reasoning skills, all books look to them to be equally authoritative - or they listen to their friends, who tell them "whose work they LIKE the most." So rather than concerning themselves with what is factual, they concern themselves with "who is the best story teller and makes me feel good." The downfall of that approach, of course, is that much of what is TRUE about reality is not what we want it to be. Karl Marx was and remains immensely popular; however no one has figured out how to accomplish anything resembling a "net good" from his philosophies.

Trained historians are quite good at recognizing the value of a source; it is people outside of history who have difficulty comprehending primary, secondary and tertiary sources - which might be why the news is god to many.

[RWReaganfan]

Went back and re-read the OP. It still appears that Buflineks advocates for reducing the math requirement in high school (the post appears to discuss those preparing for entry into college), which I think is ridiculous. However, I will have to agree with one thing s/he said - that kids should be taught more about government.

I for one would like to see a return to the Civics courses of the 40's and 50's and before, when they taught every student clearly about our Constitution, and about the reasons every other government ever devised is inferior, and how they should guard against politicians playing lightly with what amounts to our only real protection from the sort of dictatorial behavior we are seeing from this current administration.

Supporting the continuation of math instruction does not infer a desire to reduce any other particular educational aspect, as some people seem to believe. However, as several other posters on this forum have pointed out, care needs to be taken when choosing a curricula that can be twisted into highly subjective data, lest we end up (as we are headed for now) just another incarnation of kings and royalty.

That type of information IS being taught in many schools. The problem is, as in other subjects as well, what is taught is not retained past the time the test is given.

For example, I have an Algebra II class that could not remember how to add and subtract fractions!

Government is taught, but many students have a pump and dump method of learning where they retain very little of the content they are supposed to remember.

[PhantomPholly]

That type of information IS being taught in many schools. The problem is, as in other subjects as well, what is taught is not retained past the time the test is given.

There certainly is some of that - however, the facts indicate that these topics are given nowhere near the same emphasis today as 50 years ago; and there are indications that the ineffectiveness of the training is partially intentional on the part of the more radical, or simply ignorant, teachers who either disagree with, or don't understand, why the principles of freedom were so important to our Founders.

For example, I have an Algebra II class that could not remember how to add and subtract fractions!

Most of us have forgotten more than half of everything we learned. Generally "data" are less important than principles, because data can be recovered if you remember why it might have been important in the first place...

Government is taught, but many students have a pump and dump method of learning where they retain very little of the content they are supposed to remember.

And little wonder. Todays' education stresses memorization far more than in the past, and the students are inundated with far more information (much of it more worthless than simple noise). This noise has the effect of reducing the impact of more important knowledge.

There comes a point at which "Less is More." This is why things like math and physics are core topics, because they are tools of learning which can be used to describe much of the world around us, while topics like history can and should receive only representational presentation (picking a solid collection of historical times and events with clear conclusions to be drawn). With a solid core of learning, anyone can then choose for themselves what is necessary or desirable to focus on deeper study.

[vir doctus]

There comes a point at which "Less is More." This is why things like math and physics are core topics, because they are tools of learning which can be used to describe much of the world around us, while topics like history can and should receive only representational presentation (picking a solid collection of historical times and events with clear conclusions to be drawn). With a solid core of learning, anyone can then choose for themselves what is necessary or desirable to focus on deeper study.

We do not need a society filled with people who know calculus, trig, physics, or even chemistry (outside of those things involved in home ec. issues). But we will kill ourselves if the populace does not understand where man has been (Egypt, Greece, Rome, England) and why what America has is special and worthy of preserving. We will fail to be a culture worthy of imitating if all we can do is spew numbers but aren't moved by great music, masterpieces of art, or life changing literature. I am told that math and science can be beautiful, my mind is not geared to appreciate that, but everybody can advance their minds by exposure to the classics of the arts.