Let's pick apart TULIP.

[The Infamous Din]

As most of you know, TULIP is the acronym that describes the standard 5 point Calvinist view.

Here's a primer. http://calvinistcorner.com/tulip

I've already noted in a post not too long ago, that I see some problems with TULIP. I'll gather up my thoughts, give them a little touch up and post them tomorrow, if the Lord wills. In the mean time, I'd like to hear from y'all.

Total Depravity of man: The problem with this position is that it doesn't accurately describe what is fallen about nature. The fall marks the beginning of life and death competition.

Enmity with God is simply the fear that comes between us when we know that we are not doing the right thing in His eyes. The fact that we have enmity with God means that we know what the right thing in His eyes is. It proves that we have a conscience.

Unconditional Election: Based upon examples of election in the scripture, I conclude that God makes His selection based upon our attitudes. Just as a dog trainer rewards good behavior, God rewards an acceptable attitude. God knows the heart and has perfect foreknowledge. He knows the choices we will make before we make them and He gives us enough free will to reveal us to ourselves. He sets up situations to show us where we are going wrong and what needs to be corrected in us.

Limited Atonement: The problem with this view is that it describes the suffering of Jesus as if it were a mathematical equation in which a drop of blood of a certain size is required to cover a specific sin. The fact is that Jesus suffered to change our attitude. He laid down His life and took it up again to pierce our hardened hearts and to give us hope. God revealed through these acts that we were callous, downcast and cynical. We had lost our way, but our Way had not lost us.

Irresistible Grace: While the elect are at some point in their life, sealed by the Holy Spirit, we do not know when, in each case, that occurs. We know that the elect are predestined, foreknown and escorted unto the day of salvation, but we are cautioned not to grieve that Holy Spirit which is our guarantee. We are also instructed to abide in Christ and we are asked rhetorically if Jesus will find faith when He returns. This does not sound like irresistible grace to me. The notion of irresistible grace seems to be premised poorly upon the other four points, including the next one, namely, the perseverance of the Saints.

Perseverance of the Saints: This point conceives salvation as an object that can be possessed, lost, broken, etc. It's not. Salvation is our hope. Yes, hope can be lost, but it can also be found again. Every day is a new day in Christ. Our hoped for salvation is always ahead of us, until we are judged.

We are saved from the wrath of God on the day of judgment. We are sealed unto that day by the Holy Spirit which is God's guarantee to us. Why does He guarantee our salvation? Because the faith that He has given us is placed in the sovereignty and integrity of His Word. We have His Word on it. We have "the hope of salvation" and we say, in good faith, that we "are saved." We count as having received that which we pray for.

We can't lose what we have not yet received. What we have received is the hope of salvation. We receive salvation on the day of the wrath from which we are saved.

You can know for yourself that you have the seal of the Holy Spirit because you desire it and because He is active in your life.

[jwil59]

I'll do my best and I too have difficulty understanding TULIP. I think it worthy to note that there is much more to reformed docrtine that TULIP, which happen to be the more controversal aspects

The problem in defending TULIP is that minds are already made up that man somehow has the ability to save himself by his works, which happen to be the same works many atheists do too, so I don't see all that much saving quality in the the same works done by believers and non-believers.

The first thing is the depravity of man. So to understand that I think we have to compare man and God. What He is, and what we are. We can start with the Cathoilc doctrine of original sin and what Jonathon Edwards says:

the Calvinistic doctrine of the total depravity and corruption of man’s nature, whereby his heart is wholly under the power of sin, and he is utterly unable, without the interposition of sovereign grace, savingly to love God, believe in Christ, or do anything that is truly good and acceptable in God’s sight. Jonathan Edwards [1754], Freedom of the Will (WJE Online Vol. 1) , Ed. Paul Ramsey page 432..

We can start there if it is Ok with Din

[The Infamous Din]

I'll do my best and I too have difficulty understanding TULIP. I think it worthy to note that there is much more to reformed docrtine that TULIP, which happen to be the more controversal aspects

The problem in defending TULIP is that minds are already made up that man somehow has the ability to save himself by his works, which happen to be the same works many atheists do too, so I don't see all that much saving quality in the the same works done by believers and non-believers.

The first thing is the depravity of man. So to understand that I think we have to compare man and God. What He is, and what we are. We can start with the Cathoilc doctrine of original sin and what Jonathon Edwards says:

the Calvinistic doctrine of the total depravity and corruption of man’s nature, whereby his heart is wholly under the power of sin, and he is utterly unable, without the interposition of sovereign grace, savingly to love God, believe in Christ, or do anything that is truly good and acceptable in God’s sight. Jonathan Edwards [1754], Freedom of the Will (WJE Online Vol. 1) , Ed. Paul Ramsey page 432..

We can start there if it is Ok with Din

Excellent! That should do nicely. I've got to hit the hay right now. I've got an early start tomorrow.

[Koushi Shinigami]

<snip>
The problem in defending TULIP is that minds are already made up that man somehow has the ability to save himself by his works, which happen to be the same works many atheists do too, so I don't see all that much saving quality in the the same works done by believers and non-believers.

<snip>

If someone believed all athiests (or members of all non-Christian faiths) are going to hell, I can see where what you describe becomes a problem.

[Tim]

As a former Doctrines of Grace preacher and current atheist, I might join in the discussion from time if others are okay with that and don't feel my input would be a distraction.

BTW - I did not adhere to the Doctrines of Grace early on but via intense Bible study I simply began to see a "sovereignty" thread that seemed to weave its way throughout that I couldn't ignore.... this led to discussions with an old PCA preacher who guided me toward an understanding of the Doctrines and acceptance of them.

Regardless, I do know/understand that for those who reject the Doctrines it is very difficult to even entertain them, much less begin to accept them.

[tulsatech]

As a former Doctrines of Grace preacher and current atheist, I might join in the discussion from time if others are okay with that and don't feel my input would be a distraction.

BTW - I did not adhere to the Doctrines of Grace early on but via intense Bible study I simply began to see a "sovereignty" thread that seemed to weave its way throughout that I couldn't ignore.... this led to discussions with an old PCA preacher who guided me toward an understanding of the Doctrines and acceptance of them.

Regardless, I do know/understand that for those who reject the Doctrines it is very difficult to even entertain them, much less begin to accept them.

"PCA preacher"?

[Tim]

"PCA preacher"?

Presbyterian Church in America

For more info, see Francis Schaeffer. I was greatly influenced by his writings.

[tulsatech]

Presbyterian Church in America

For more info, see Francis Schaeffer. I was greatly influenced by his writings.

Oh yes, I've heard of him. Thanks for the link.

[Bonnie Lou]

IMO..Good works are no more the sole path to salvation as Grace is. Good works are a purification process of our intentions and past negative karma and a `practice`. We all know the old saying `practice makes perfect`. Good works are inherently self perpetuating through love and compassion, pushing out negative and destructive behaviors. Hence, we are awakened to reality.

[buflineks]

Historical side note:


Calvin was against TULIP. It didn't become part of Calvinist Doctrine until after his death and the proponents of the Doctrine took control of the sect.

[RayMan]

Historical side note:


Calvin was against TULIP. It didn't become part of Calvinist Doctrine until after his death and the proponents of the Doctrine took control of the sect.

And John Wesley, famous Arminian, was an Anglican cleric not a Methodist.

Just throwing random facts into the mix.

You're welcome.

[The Infamous Din]

Total Depravity of man: The problem with this position is that it doesn't accurately describe what is fallen about nature. The fall marks the beginning of life and death competition.

Enmity with God is simply the fear that comes between us when we know that we are not doing the right thing in His eyes. The fact that we have enmity with God means that we know what the right thing in His eyes is. It proves that we have a conscience.

Unconditional Election: Based upon examples of election in the scripture, I conclude that God makes His selection based upon our attitudes. Just as a dog trainer rewards good behavior, God rewards an acceptable attitude. God knows the heart and has perfect foreknowledge. He knows the choices we will make before we make them and He gives us enough free will to reveal us to ourselves. He sets up situations to show us where we are going wrong and what needs to be corrected in us.

Limited Atonement: The problem with this view is that it describes the suffering of Jesus as if it were a mathematical equation in which a drop of blood of a certain size is required to cover a specific sin. The fact is that Jesus suffered to change our attitude. He laid down His life and took it up again to pierce our hardened hearts and to give us hope. God revealed through these acts that we were callous, downcast and cynical. We had lost our way, but our Way had not lost us.

Irresistible Grace: While the elect are at some point in their life, sealed by the Holy Spirit, we do not know when, in each case, that occurs. We know that the elect are predestined, foreknown and escorted unto the day of salvation, but we are cautioned not to grieve that Holy Spirit which is our guarantee. We are also instructed to abide in Christ and we are asked rhetorically if Jesus will find faith when He returns. This does not sound like irresistible grace to me. The notion of irresistible grace seems to be premised poorly upon the other four points, including the next one, namely, the perseverance of the Saints.

Perseverance of the Saints: This point conceives salvation as an object that can be possessed, lost, broken, etc. It's not. Salvation is our hope. Yes, hope can be lost, but it can also be found again. Every day is a new day in Christ. Our hoped for salvation is always ahead of us, until we are judged.

We are saved from the wrath of God on the day of judgment. We are sealed unto that day by the Holy Spirit which is God's guarantee to us. Why does He guarantee our salvation? Because the faith that He has given us is placed in the sovereignty and integrity of His Word. We have His Word on it. We have "the hope of salvation" and we say, in good faith, that we "are saved." We count as having received that which we pray for.

We can't lose what we have not yet received. What we have received is the hope of salvation. We receive salvation on the day of the wrath from which we are saved.

You can know for yourself that you have the seal of the Holy Spirit because you desire it and because He is active in your life.

[jwil59]

If someone believed all athiests (or members of all non-Christian faiths) are going to hell, I can see where what you describe becomes a problem.

I don't know who is going, or even what hell is like.

I do KNOW one thing, I ain't going. Not if the Bible is true

[Abe]

I don't know who is going, or even what hell is like.

I do KNOW one thing, I ain't going. Not if the Bible is true

How about letting God make that decision...
















































Not that I believe it anyway...

[buflineks]

Okay, personal dispute with the whole "elect" based upon the doctrine as established by Calvin himself and the claim that U.S. political theory is based upon Calvinist teachings.


In Calvins "elect" doctrine as presented to the Swiss canons is that a person was successful in business only by the predestination and favor of God. Ergo, those who were Calvinist were successful in business and wealth due to the fact that they were "elect".

If predestination by a higher power in this state is the way it works, then it could be argued that "Divine Right of Kings" was the natural order of things and that egalitarianism was not. Therefore, during the 18th Century, so called "Natural Rights" would only have been for the elect due to the fact that predestination did not mesh with the idea of "freedom of choice" and the ability of a person to pursue their own success based upon their own ability.


So this whole egalitarian idea of the "elect" is in fact contidictory.