Ask a Seventh-day Adventist

[optrader]

As those who have read my posts realize, I'm a tad outside the mainstream. If you are curious what a self admitted fundamentalist, former SDA believes, fire away...

[RayMan]

As those who have read my posts realize, I'm a tad outside the mainstream. If you are curious what a self admitted fundamentalist, former SDA believes, fire away...

Cool!

So, what about Christians who have passed on? Sleeping peacefully until the Resurrection or strolling around Heaven waiting for us to get up there?

[optrader]

Cool!

So, what about Christians who have passed on? Sleeping peacefully until the Resurrection or strolling around Heaven waiting for us to get up there?

Except for the few exceptions specifically mentioned, Enoch, Elijah, those resurrected at Christs' crucifixion, all are asleep until Christ returns.

[5thIDSoldier]

Why dont you give us all a brief synopsis of the beliefs?

[gpd®]

As those who have read my posts realize, I'm a tad outside the mainstream. If you are curious what a self admitted fundamentalist, former SDA believes, fire away...

You showed a slight disdain for the RCC but you both practice "replacement theology" which was introduced by the RCC and practiced by JW's.

Are there any other practices that the SDA shares with denominations they don't agree with?

Thanks, I hope the question didn't come across to harsh.

[Thank you Troops]

What day do you go to church and why?

[busybody]

Why are you a former SDA?

[optrader]

Why dont you give us all a brief synopsis of the beliefs?

We believe Jesus Christ is the son of God and that He died for our sins.

We believe that we are saved by faith through the grace of Jesus and by no other name are we saved.

We believe in baptism by immersion, that it is an outward demonstration of an inward acceptance and is necessary for those that are able and understand the meaning of baptism.

We believe the 10 commandments are the reflection of Christs' perfect character and they reveal to us those areas of our character that may be lacking.

We believe in soul sleep

We believe in the second death.

We believe in the 3 angels message in Rev. 14

We believe in the historicist view of prophecy.

These are some of the major beliefs.

[optrader]

You showed a slight disdain for the RCC but you both practice "replacement theology" which was introduced by the RCC and practiced by JW's.

Are there any other practices that the SDA shares with denominations they don't agree with?

Thanks, I hope the question didn't come across to harsh.

I believe the RCC is in error in much of their teaching. However, I believe also that there will be millions of Catholics in the kingdom. No group has a lock on salvation or lack thereof. Salvation is an individual, personal thing between Jesus and us personally. My earlier jump into this forum was preceded by my sometimes over large mouth and preconceived ideas. I sincerely regret my earlier posts and the tone of them.

I'm not sure what you mean by "replacement theology" Ther are many beliefs SDA's share with "mainstream" Christianity, though the differences are what most people are aware of.

Not harsh at all, I really appreciate that this forum, unlike many others, has rules of respect and is monitored by not only the mods, but by members as well .

[optrader]

What day do you go to church and why?

SDA's worship on Saturday in accordance with the 4th commandment to "remember the Sabbath to keep it Holy."

[optrader]

Why are you a former SDA?

First, welcome!

I'm a former SDA because the church has undergone dramatic change and doing things which are completely unscriptural. I believe we should be aware of what our church is doing and we are accountable if we knowingly support error.

[Koushi Shinigami]

SDA's worship on Saturday in accordance with the 4th commandment to "remember the Sabbath to keep it Holy."

For you, does that start at sundown Friday?

[gpd®]

I believe the RCC is in error in much of their teaching. However, I believe also that there will be millions of Catholics in the kingdom. No group has a lock on salvation or lack thereof. Salvation is an individual, personal thing between Jesus and us personally. My earlier jump into this forum was preceded by my sometimes over large mouth and preconceived ideas. I sincerely regret my earlier posts and the tone of them.

I'm not sure what you mean by "replacement theology" Ther are many beliefs SDA's share with "mainstream" Christianity, though the differences are what most people are aware of.

Not harsh at all, I really appreciate that this forum, unlike many others, has rules of respect and is monitored by not only the mods, but by members as well .

As a Pentecostal, I believe that all Jews must be returned to their homeland and have faith that they will receive Christ before or during the second coming of Jesus.

I believe the Jewish people still have the "promise" as long as a faithful remnant remain.

Replacement theology stresses that the Jews forfeited their inheritance and the Christians replaced them as the "children of the promise."

The Bible says we are grafted not the replacements.

This is one of the articles of being RCC or SDA or JW and other conservatives Evangelicals.

Unfortunately this creates antisemitism and goes against the Bible's call to bless Israel.

[optrader]

For you, does that start at sundown Friday?

Yes, it does. However, this is one of my shortcomings, I don't keep it as I should. This causes me no end of guilt.

[optrader]

As a Pentecostal, I believe that all Jews must be returned to their homeland and have faith that they will receive Christ before or during the second coming of Jesus.

I believe the Jewish people still have the "promise" as long as a faithful remnant remain.

Replacement theology stresses that the Jews forfeited their inheritance and the Christians replaced them as the "children of the promise."

The Bible says we are grafted not the replacements.

This is one of the articles of being RCC or SDA or JW and other conservatives Evangelicals.

Unfortunately this creates antisemitism and goes against the Bible's call to bless Israel.

Yes, I guess then I believe in the replacement theology. God gave the Jews a final 490 year period (found in Daniel) to end their rebellion against Him. This period began in 457 BC when Artaxerxes gave the command to rebuild and restore Jerusalem and ended in 33 AD with the stoning of Stephen. The message was then to go to the Gentiles.

I don't understand how this is anti-semitic, to believe what scripture says, that only those who accept Christ are saved. Is it anti-muslim or anti-hindu to assert the same to them? Jesus died for Jews as individuals as He did for everyone else, the choice is theirs individually to make. They have the same time frame as anyone else to make this decision, i.e. their lifetime or before Jesus returns, whichever comes first.

[busybody]

Thank you for the welcome.

What specifically has changed about the church that caused you to leave? Is it doctrine, certain people, the gc?

[optrader]

Thank you for the welcome.

What specifically has changed about the church that caused you to leave? Is it doctrine, certain people, the gc?

You seem familiar with SDA structure, are you SDA?

I will list the most significant things that caused me to leave.

1. Yes, there is doctrinal change. The church has backpedaled on it's view of historicism and the 3 angels message.

2. The church has minimized Ellen White and disfellowshipped people and entire congregations for passing out The great controversy and other writings.

3. The church is the only church to copyright its' name. It has forbidden and even sued other churches for using the name Seventh-Day Adventist.

4. It has replaced the KJV with the NIV which radically alters doctrine being preached. (See point 1.)

5. It has changed the traditional service with traditional music to a celebration service and music. IMO, the sanctuary should be a place of reverence where our minds are made ready for worship and the presence of the Holy Spirit. This is not accomplished by Rock Music.

6. It condones, by lack of admonition, open, unrepentant sin among it's members. While we all sin, allowing blatant adulterers and drug users to remain as members in good standing and even make them board members and elders is going too far. I have first hand knowledge of these examples in two churches in my area.

7. By the above example, the church has become a business, more concerned with bringing in tithe money than preaching the gospel truth and calling people to repent.

8. Invested tithe money in the stock market. Again, the church is not a business.

9. Fired pastors, ours being one, who tried to return the church to its' historic teachings and mission, as given by God.

[busybody]

Yes I am SDA. We still have a fairly conservative church family but I see your points about turning it into a business. That is why I have always refused to pay tithe through the church.

[optrader]

Yes I am SDA. We still have a fairly conservative church family but I see your points about turning it into a business. That is why I have always refused to pay tithe through the church.

While some of the reasons I listed may just be in my church, are you familiar with the other reasons such as trademarking the name, suing other groups etc? If you are familiar with these things, how do you feel about them? If you are not familiar with these things, should you be? There were other that left the church when did, I'm curious as to whats happening in other churches and how other members feel about some of these things. I miss the fellowship, but I can't bring myself to support a church that I feel has gone the way of the world!

[gpd®]

Yes, I guess then I believe in the replacement theology. God gave the Jews a final 490 year period (found in Daniel) to end their rebellion against Him. This period began in 457 BC when Artaxerxes gave the command to rebuild and restore Jerusalem and ended in 33 AD with the stoning of Stephen. The message was then to go to the Gentiles.

I don't understand how this is anti-semitic, to believe what scripture says, that only those who accept Christ are saved. Is it anti-muslim or anti-hindu to assert the same to them? Jesus died for Jews as individuals as He did for everyone else, the choice is theirs individually to make. They have the same time frame as anyone else to make this decision, i.e. their lifetime or before Jesus returns, whichever comes first.

Well, this is one of the items that creates and widens the rift in the Body of Christ. I've studied and read the Bible front to back and back to front and never got any impression that God revoked His covenant with the Jewish remnant.

One may not see it, but the replacement issue has created antisemitism and there were a couple of infamous people who also thought so. Without mentioning the unmentionable name, I think we know who one was.

Also, without the building of the Third Temple the end cannot come. If the Jewish people are supposedly disconnected from God, the building of the third temple would be insignificant.

Thanks for you kind feedback.

[optrader]

Well, this is one of the items that creates and widens the rift in the Body of Christ. I've studied and read the Bible front to back and back to front and never got any impression that God revoked His covenant with the Jewish remnant.

One may not see it, but the replacement issue has created antisemitism and there were a couple of infamous people who also thought so. Without mentioning the unmentionable name, I think we know who one was.

Also, without the building of the Third Temple the end cannot come. If the Jewish people are supposedly disconnected from God, the building of the third temple would be insignificant.

Thanks for you kind feedback.

God's covenants are always conditional. Look at His promises and you will see they always take an "if/then" format. God promises that He will do something IF we also do something and finishes with a BUT, and laying out the consequences if we reneg on our end. Even our salvation is conditional on the premise we do the things listed in the NT. If we repent, if we are baptized, if we become as little children, if we are born again, if we accept Jesus as Lord and saviour, etc. These are REQUIREMENTS for our salvation! There is no place in scripture that indicates the Jews are any different. What is your take on the 490 year prophecy in Daniel?


One promise of God is found in Malachi 3:10 " Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house, and prove me now herewith, saith the LORD of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it. " That the Jews have broken some of their end of Gods' covenant does not mean they have broken every aspect of Gods' covenant. In this, they have been faithful. In addition, they have maintained their identity throughout history and passed their teaching and tradition down from generation to generation. Yes, God has been bestowing blessings upon the Jews, even until today. Could it be that anti-semitism springs from the visible aspects of Gods' blessings upon them? That other nations are jealous of what God has done for them? I have no malice, resentment or negative feelings toward Jews (or any other person or people for that matter.) However, that they have been faithful in some things and receive God's blessings does not mean they have been faithful in everything and as such, God does not have to fulfil His end of everything with them. There is no place in scripture which indicates they are exempt from the same conditions for salvation that Jesus laid upon everyone else. If there is, please show it to me.

[5thIDSoldier]

We believe Jesus Christ is the son of God and that He died for our sins.

We believe that we are saved by faith through the grace of Jesus and by no other name are we saved.

We believe in baptism by immersion, that it is an outward demonstration of an inward acceptance and is necessary for those that are able and understand the meaning of baptism.

We believe the 10 commandments are the reflection of Christs' perfect character and they reveal to us those areas of our character that may be lacking.

We believe in soul sleep

We believe in the second death.

We believe in the 3 angels message in Rev. 14

We believe in the historicist view of prophecy.

These are some of the major beliefs.

Thank you. I appreciate that information. Some of that I did not know.

[gpd®]

God's covenants are always conditional. Look at His promises and you will see they always take an "if/then" format. God promises that He will do something IF we also do something and finishes with a BUT, and laying out the consequences if we reneg on our end. Even our salvation is conditional on the premise we do the things listed in the NT. If we repent, if we are baptized, if we become as little children, if we are born again, if we accept Jesus as Lord and saviour, etc. These are REQUIREMENTS for our salvation! There is no place in scripture that indicates the Jews are any different. What is your take on the 490 year prophecy in Daniel?


One promise of God is found in Malachi 3:10 " Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house, and prove me now herewith, saith the LORD of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it. " That the Jews have broken some of their end of Gods' covenant does not mean they have broken every aspect of Gods' covenant. In this, they have been faithful. In addition, they have maintained their identity throughout history and passed their teaching and tradition down from generation to generation. Yes, God has been bestowing blessings upon the Jews, even until today. Could it be that anti-semitism springs from the visible aspects of Gods' blessings upon them? That other nations are jealous of what God has done for them? I have no malice, resentment or negative feelings toward Jews (or any other person or people for that matter.) However, that they have been faithful in some things and receive God's blessings does not mean they have been faithful in everything and as such, God does not have to fulfil His end of everything with them. There is no place in scripture which indicates they are exempt from the same conditions for salvation that Jesus laid upon everyone else. If there is, please show it to me.

So help me out here. Please show me some verses that show if the Jews do not accept Jesus as the messiah, they forfeit the covenant given to Abraham and his decedents.

I don't see where the word "everlasting" has conditions tied to it.

Gen 17:7 And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee.

Gen 17:8 And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God.

Please sell me. Show me where Genesis 17 is overturned or conditionalized.

[gpd®]

I don't understand how this is anti-semitic, to believe what scripture says, that only those who accept Christ are saved. Is it anti-muslim or anti-hindu to assert the same to them? Jesus died for Jews as individuals as He did for everyone else, the choice is theirs individually to make. They have the same time frame as anyone else to make this decision, i.e. their lifetime or before Jesus returns, whichever comes first.

Now that I think about it. The antisemitism comes from the fact that if Israel forfeited their inheritance, they also forfeit their land. Someone who believes in replacement theology should logically believe that the Jews are in illegal possession of Israel because it was also part of the same "promise."

[optrader]

Now that I think about it. The antisemitism comes from the fact that if Israel forfeited their inheritance, they also forfeit their land. Someone who believes in replacement theology should logically believe that the Jews are in illegal possession of Israel because it was also part of the same "promise."

I'll get back on the covenant question, but first: How do you equate land with salvation? Our salvation has nothing to do with our location on earth, be it the Holy land or somewhere else. Ultimately, isn't the kingdom really the only important thing, not where we dwell for a few decades here on earth?

The Jews did lose their land. They didn't get it back until 1948 when Israel was re-established as a nation. Does "everlasting" imply a several hundred year loss of ownership by your belief? In OT times, God gave them the land and fought for them at times to help them keep it. Would they have lost it at all if God had continued to fight their battles for them. It wasn't God that restored the land to them in 1948. The Shikinah Glory, the presence of God, departed from them when Christ was crucified. I'm not aware that it has returned. If so, where does it dwell now since the temple and ark are gone? What was the significance of Gods departure, especially years before the temple was destroyed.

Why do you think I should logically assume they posess the land illegally? Almost every country in the world was taken by force, or established in previously owned territory. Do we illegally own the US because we "took" it from the native Americans?

One other thing, sometimes words like "everlasting" and "eternal" have built-in or implied limitations. For example, Adam and Eve would have lived forever. Their "eternal" life was conditional upon them not eating of the tree. How about Jude 7 "Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire. " It clearly says ETERNAL fire. Are Sodom and Gomorrah still burning? Does eternal really mean eternal?

The word "Anti" has very negative connotations. That the jews, collectively forfeited their inheritance does not imply they individually forfeited their salvation. That is how salvation is gained or lost, as individuals, not as members of any particular group, religion, denomination,etc. Jesus will judge them as He judges everyone else.

[Talk2Bill]

Ever been to Keene?

[optrader]

Ever been to Keene?

No, where or what is it?

[BillBrown]

No, where or what is it?

It's a SDA town in Texas.
No tobacco or alcohol is sold.
Everything closes on Saturday.
There may be other unusual things they do, but this is what I recall.

[Talk2Bill]

No, where or what is it?

it is a SDA community. it is near Dallas/Ft Worth Texas.

[Talk2Bill]

It's a SDA town in Texas.
No tobacco or alcohol is sold.
Everything closes on Saturday.
There may be other unusual things they do, but this is what I recall.

a few places sell tobacco, and NOT everything is closed on Saturday. But they have mail on Sunday!

[gpd®]

I'll get back on the covenant question, but first: How do you equate land with salvation? Our salvation has nothing to do with our location on earth, be it the Holy land or somewhere else. Ultimately, isn't the kingdom really the only important thing, not where we dwell for a few decades here on earth?

The Jews did lose their land. They didn't get it back until 1948 when Israel was re-established as a nation. Does "everlasting" imply a several hundred year loss of ownership by your belief? In OT times, God gave them the land and fought for them at times to help them keep it. Would they have lost it at all if God had continued to fight their battles for them. It wasn't God that restored the land to them in 1948. The Shikinah Glory, the presence of God, departed from them when Christ was crucified. I'm not aware that it has returned. If so, where does it dwell now since the temple and ark are gone? What was the significance of Gods departure, especially years before the temple was destroyed.

Why do you think I should logically assume they posess the land illegally? Almost every country in the world was taken by force, or established in previously owned territory. Do we illegally own the US because we "took" it from the native Americans?

One other thing, sometimes words like "everlasting" and "eternal" have built-in or implied limitations. For example, Adam and Eve would have lived forever. Their "eternal" life was conditional upon them not eating of the tree. How about Jude 7 "Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire. " It clearly says ETERNAL fire. Are Sodom and Gomorrah still burning? Does eternal really mean eternal?

The word "Anti" has very negative connotations. That the jews, collectively forfeited their inheritance does not imply they individually forfeited their salvation. That is how salvation is gained or lost, as individuals, not as members of any particular group, religion, denomination,etc. Jesus will judge them as He judges everyone else.

Great responses.

This is what I need to know and study.

To me, replacement theology seems to be a man made wisdom that Paul warns about in 1 Corinthians.

Paul states the apostles directly received their wisdom from God. Scriptural knowledge truly comes only from the Holy Spirit.

Does someone actually go in their prayer closet, fast and pray for revelation that the Jews are no longer children of the promise?

Just seems totally contradictory to me.

Yes, the "land of milk and honey" appears to me to be part of their salvation plan. God had interest in the part of the world for a reason.

(I don't know why any of our valued Jewish contributors don't feel it right to step in and prove us right or wrong.)

[gpd®]

Anyways Optrader, my original comment was suggesting how we are sure that the RCC is wrong, but we pick and choose many of their practices and call them our own.

We do it in Pentecostalism including having services on Sundays. The SDA's do it by taking their theory of replacment or covenent theology.

We are all brothers, we should exhort each other. We do have a common enemy after all.

[RayMan]

<snip>
(I don't know why any of our valued Jewish contributors don't feel it right to step in and prove us right or wrong.)

I got two theories on that. Either they have no idea that you guys are debating along these lines because they aren't visiting this thread or they feel like the SDA has hijacked their Holy Day and aren't visiting this thread.

I would assume that my first theory is the correct one. Interesting discussion, please keep it up.

[gpd®]

I got two theories on that. Either they have no idea that you guys are debating along these lines because they aren't visiting this thread or they feel like the SDA has hijacked their Holy Day and aren't visiting this thread.

I would assume that my first theory is the correct one. Interesting discussion, please keep it up.

You know Ray, there are so many things like Mary and Sacraments and Holy Days, etc., to talk about.

This is the one topic that really feels important to me.

[RayMan]

You know Ray, there are so many things like Mary and Sacraments and Holy Days, etc., to talk about.

This is the one topic that really feels important to me.


Go for it.

[optrader]

Great responses.

This is what I need to know and study.

To me, replacement theology seems to be a man made wisdom that Paul warns about in 1 Corinthians.

Paul states the apostles directly received their wisdom from God. Scriptural knowledge truly comes only from the Holy Spirit.

Does someone actually go in their prayer closet, fast and pray for revelation that the Jews are no longer children of the promise?

Just seems totally contradictory to me.

Yes, the "land of milk and honey" appears to me to be part of their salvation plan. God had interest in the part of the world for a reason.

(I don't know why any of our valued Jewish contributors don't feel it right to step in and prove us right or wrong.)

True, scripture is discerned by the Holy Spirit. But remember, the same Spirit that gave wisdom to the apostles gives us wisdom and discernment today.
God chose a people to be the example to the rest of the world. They were to show the world what Gods' rulership was like, how God would bless those that freely did his will and accept Him as ruler in their life. He blessed them for centuries. He fought their battles, kept them safe, provided for them, made them fruitful and prosperous. He did all the things for them that He wants for His children today. He was repaid with constant rebellion. How many times did God send them into captivity as punishment for their stubborness? The Babylonians, the Egyptians, The Romans to name a few.

God gave them a final warning in Daniel 9:24 " Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy." The first 4 words "seventy weeks are determined" are very significant. The 70 weeks (490 literal years) gives a definite time frame and the words "are determined" imply a resolution or decision has been made. The action God required is self explanatory, however, Christians seem unwilling to ask themselves what "decision" God was determined to take should His people not heed this warning.

We forget that Lucifer laid an accusation at Christ's feet. The accusation was that Jesus is a tyrant. He created people, giving them 10 rules to follow, knowing they can't, of their own power or freewill, do so, and then condemns them for following their nature. Lucifer felt that he should be in charge. This is an accusation that Jesus must answer.

The only way to vindicate Himself, and thus prove Lucifer wrong is to have a people manifest, of their own freewill, the desire to accept His rulership and keep these 10 rules freely, without any coersion. The Jews worshipped God and imperfectly kept His commandments, but there was no power in the OT temple system to change the selfish nature we all have. That's why they had to use the temple system over and over for 1400 years. On the day of atonement, once a year, they could, as a people, be cleansed of sin, but there was no provision for changing their sinful nature. Without such, the temple system could never end.

With the crucifixion of the perfect sacrifice, there is no further need of the temple system. Christ fulfilled, and is continuing to fulfill multiple roles. First, as the perfect, sinless sacrifice. The blood of animals was not sufficient for the job. By the merits of HIS OWN BLOOD, He is able, like the priests of OT times, to enter the temple. His role as high priest allows Him to enter the most Holy place in the temple in heaven (spoken of in Hebrews) and complete the work of atonement. While Jesus takes our sin FROM US, by His death on the cross, He must have a means to remove the collective sins from Himself. This is why scripture identifies Him as High Priest of the order of Melchizadek. He is not a Levite, yet is a priest and can finish the work for His people ONCE, not over and over.

The other aspect that allows Christ to only have to do this once is that at His ressurection, He sent us the Holy Spirit. It is the function of the Holy Spirit to sanctify us, meaning to change our character from selfish to Christ-like or make us Holy. Our characters are transformed. The OT jews did not have the Holy Spirit, at least not collectively, as a people, but Jesus does promise to send the Spirit to all who accept Him. This is why the Jews are no longer His chosen people. They rejected Christ, and thus can not fulfill God's plan for His people. When Jesus stands up and says "Here are they who kept my commandments," He is talking about a literal group of people who, of their freewill, chose Him, and by the Holy Spirit working in their lives, are able to fulfill His plan.

As I said, the 70 weeks began in 457 BC with the command of Artaxerxes. (foung in Ezra) It ended in 33 AD at the stoning of Stephen. Scripture tells of the argument Peter had with the other apostles about being "shown" that He was to preach to the gentiles (who were unclean)

It is because of the work of Francisco Ribera (a jesuit) that Christians break the 70th week from this period and place its fulfillment into the indeterminant future. Hence the term (futurism) It is the work of another jesuit, Louis De Alcazar, that gave us preterism. Ask yourself a couple questions: How can two completely opposite views of prophecy be true and how or why did both originate with the RCC?

[optrader]

Anyways Optrader, my original comment was suggesting how we are sure that the RCC is wrong, but we pick and choose many of their practices and call them our own.

We do it in Pentecostalism including having services on Sundays. The SDA's do it by taking their theory of replacment or covenent theology.

We are all brothers, we should exhort each other. We do have a common enemy after all.

While they have many teachings I believe are wrong, they also have many teachings I believe are right. If they are right teachings, I don't care who taught them first, right is right. I will "call them my own" and attribute them as coming from Jesus/Apostles/Bible as does the RCC. Sunday worship and futurism come directly from the RCC, they have admitted as much. I believe these things to be in error, as such I reject them, but I will just as stubbornly cling to the things they are right about. They believe that Jesus is the son of God, that He died for our sins, those two most important concepts, they have right!

You are right, we are all brothers with a common enemy! I welcome the fight from every Christian regardless of our differences in belief.

[JenT]

I read everything and really great writing optrader :clap:, but the one thing I didn't get is this part so wanted to ask you where this comes from?

We forget that Lucifer laid an accusation at Christ's feet. The accusation was that Jesus is a tyrant. He created people, giving them 10 rules to follow, knowing they can't, of their own power or freewill, do so, and then condemns them for following their nature. Lucifer felt that he should be in charge. This is an accusation that Jesus must answer.

Where does it say Lucifer accused Jesus of being a tyrant...or anything like that? Never noticed that before, just curious.

That and the preterist thing...didn't really understand that paragraph connecting it to the RCC?

[JenT]

wait...I'm a little lost, so SDA are preterists?

[RayMan]

wait...I'm a little lost, so SDA are preterists?

Historicist.

[cbut1]

How does the SDA come to the conclusion of Saturday being the Sabbath day still?

I give hint to the reason of my question (Hezekiah and Joshua).

[gpd®]

W

You are right, we are all brothers with a common enemy! I welcome the fight from every Christian regardless of our differences in belief.

A lot to digest and very well written. I'll take your final comment away with me as Gospel truth.

Our theologies differ but we are all of one faith. Praise God.

[gpd®]

How does the SDA come to the conclusion of Saturday being the Sabbath day still?

I give hint to the reason of my question (Hezekiah and Joshua).

Sabado comes from the word Sabbath. In Spanish, that means Saturday....just a guess????

[5thIDSoldier]

You seem familiar with SDA structure, are you SDA?

I will list the most significant things that caused me to leave.

1. Yes, there is doctrinal change. The church has backpedaled on it's view of historicism and the 3 angels message.

2. The church has minimized Ellen White and disfellowshipped people and entire congregations for passing out The great controversy and other writings.

3. The church is the only church to copyright its' name. It has forbidden and even sued other churches for using the name Seventh-Day Adventist.

4. It has replaced the KJV with the NIV which radically alters doctrine being preached. (See point 1.)

5. It has changed the traditional service with traditional music to a celebration service and music. IMO, the sanctuary should be a place of reverence where our minds are made ready for worship and the presence of the Holy Spirit. This is not accomplished by Rock Music.

6. It condones, by lack of admonition, open, unrepentant sin among it's members. While we all sin, allowing blatant adulterers and drug users to remain as members in good standing and even make them board members and elders is going too far. I have first hand knowledge of these examples in two churches in my area.

7. By the above example, the church has become a business, more concerned with bringing in tithe money than preaching the gospel truth and calling people to repent.

8. Invested tithe money in the stock market. Again, the church is not a business.

9. Fired pastors, ours being one, who tried to return the church to its' historic teachings and mission, as given by God.

Welcome to the state of the modern day church. A sad state of affairs I must say; but I also applaud you for taking your stand against such things. If more people did this, especially regarding numbers 4-9 in thier own churches, things would be different IMO.

[cbut1]

Perhaps optrader would find us Baptist more like his style.

[optrader]

wait...I'm a little lost, so SDA are preterists?

I'll answer this one first. There are 3 views of prophecy.

1. Historicism. This is the belief that prophecy did not stop at the 69th week of the 70 week prophecy in Daniel. Prophecy has continued to be fulfilled throughout history and is verified by events that have occurred. For example, the sun not giving it's light and the moon being red. This event did occur in may of 1780. The stars falling prophecy was fulfilled in november 1833. The leonid meteor shower that november produced an estimated 250,000 meteors per hour! Too much in historicist belief to go into detail, but historicism was the dominant prophetic belief from the reformation until the mid 19th century.
Many prominent theologians were historicists including Martin Luther, Isaac Newton (who wrote more books on religion than science), John Calvin, John Knox and John Wesley. Historicism does not paint a flattering picture of the RCC.

2. Futurism. This view was created by a Jesuit named Francisco Ribera. In futurism, the 70th week of prophecy was broken off from the preceeding 69 weeks. The fulfillment of this last week was put far in the future. We are waiting for events to begin that signal the start of this final week and thus bring in the end times.

3. Preterism. This view was created by another Jesuit named Louis De Alcazar. Preterism says that virtually all of prophecy has been fulfilled, for example speculating that Nero was the anti-Christ, and we are just waiting for Jesus to return.

The last 2 views, futurism and preterism were deliberately created because historicism was being preached by the reformers and the RCC needed alternate views to deflect what was being preached against it.

How futurism replaced historicism is a topic for another thread, suffice to say, it was not an accident.

Seventh-Day Adventists are historicists.

[optrader]

How does the SDA come to the conclusion of Saturday being the Sabbath day still?

I give hint to the reason of my question (Hezekiah and Joshua).

No where in Scripture is the Sabbath ever changed. It was changed by man. The reason accepted is that Jesus rose on Sunday. Early Christians did in fact keep the 7th day as the Sabbath but it became to be associated with Judaism and led to the same types of persecution that Jews were receiving. Scripture does not command us to keep Holy the day Jesus rose on, nor honor His birthday (which is not even in the month of December). As God is very meticulous about leaving instruction about how we are to do things (consider the detail given in the OT), does it seem out of character to expect us to honor days such as Jesus' birthday and His resurrection day without leaving similar detail as to how it should be done? I believe it is very out of character, which is evidence to me that He never intended us to keep those days as we do.

[optrader]

Sabado comes from the word Sabbath. In Spanish, that means Saturday....just a guess????

:clap: Excellent!! There are many languages where the word for Saturday means Sabbath.

[RayMan]

No where in Scripture is the Sabbath ever changed. It was changed by man. The reason accepted is that Jesus rose on Sunday. Early Christians did in fact keep the 7th day as the Sabbath but it became to be associated with Judaism and led to the same types of persecution that Jews were receiving. Scripture does not command us to keep Holy the day Jesus rose on, nor honor His birthday (which is not even in the month of December). As God is very meticulous about leaving instruction about how we are to do things (consider the detail given in the OT), does it seem out of character to expect us to honor days such as Jesus' birthday and His resurrection day without leaving similar detail as to how it should be done? I believe it is very out of character, which is evidence to me that He never intended us to keep those days as we do.

You make several good points here. I can't express in gentle terms just how much it ticks me off when people try to make Sunday the Sabbath. The seventh day is the Sabbath and has been for thousands of years now.

Sunday, the first day of the week, "The Lord's Day," is a great day for Christians to set aside for worshipping God but hijacking the Sabbath by moving it to Sunday is just flat wrong.

[optrader]

Perhaps optrader would find us Baptist more like is style.

I love baptists. After leaving the SDA, I attended a baptist church for over two years. If I didn't hold so passionately to the SDA message, I'd be a baptist.

[optrader]

Welcome to the state of the modern day church. A sad state of affairs I must say; but I also applaud you for taking your stand against such things. If more people did this, especially regarding numbers 4-9 in thier own churches, things would be different IMO.

I appreciate the support. The world has crept into most of todays churches, but that too is a fulfillment of prophecy!.

[RayMan]

I love baptists. After leaving the SDA, I attended a baptist church for over two years. If I didn't hold so passionately to the SDA message, I'd be a baptist.

What's not to love about Baptists. Except the Grean Bean casserole.

[optrader]

I read everything and really great writing optrader :clap:, but the one thing I didn't get is this part so wanted to ask you where this comes from?



Where does it say Lucifer accused Jesus of being a tyrant...or anything like that? Never noticed that before, just curious.

That and the preterist thing...didn't really understand that paragraph connecting it to the RCC?


The Bible does not directly say these things. I belive these conclusions are supported by what scripture tells us of the character of Jesus and the character of Satan.

We know that Lucifer led a rebellion against Jesus and that scripture call Satan our "accuser." What exactly does he accuse us of and why should we care? The only accusation that Christians have to fear, (if we were to be convicted) is an accusation that would cost us our salvation! He accuses us of being sinners (we are) and thus do not deserve Jesus' mercy. Remember the saying, "misery loves company." Satan wants to take as many of us down with him as he can. Since sin is defined as "trangression of the law" and the law is the 10 commandments, Satan is saying we don't/cant keep them and thus deserve "the wages of sin" i.e., death.

Who gave us the commandments? Since Satan is right and we can't (of our own power) keep them, He gets to accuse Jesus of tyranny. Christ gave us a law we could not keep and then condemns us for not being able to do so. How does Jesus answer this?

Jesus gives us absolute freewill to accept or reject Him and then sends us the Holy Spirit to change our characters. It is this changing of our character, or sanctification that will ultimately prove to the universe that Satan is a liar and that his way leads to destruction and death. When this "courtroom" scene is played out, Jesus will be able to point to His people and say "here are they that keep my commandments." By this, Jesus is vindicated and there will never again arise the question as to Jesus being right. His justice will then be perfect and understood by all.

[optrader]

What's not to love about Baptists. Except the Grean Bean casserole.

Come to a vegetarian SDA potluck and I guarantee you'll miss that green bean casserole!:):)

[RayMan]

Come to a vegetarian SDA potluck and I guarantee you'll miss that green bean casserole!:):)

:):)

[cbut1]

The Bible does not directly say these things. I belive these conclusions are supported by what scripture tells us of the character of Jesus and the character of Satan.

We know that Lucifer led a rebellion against Jesus and that scripture call Satan our "accuser." What exactly does he accuse us of and why should we care? The only accusation that Christians have to fear, (if we were to be convicted) is an accusation that would cost us our salvation! He accuses us of being sinners (we are) and thus do not deserve Jesus' mercy. Remember the saying, "misery loves company." Satan wants to take as many of us down with him as he can. Since sin is defined as "trangression of the law" and the law is the 10 commandments, Satan is saying we don't/cant keep them and thus deserve "the wages of sin" i.e., death.

Who gave us the commandments? Since Satan is right and we can't (of our own power) keep them, He gets to accuse Jesus of tyranny. Christ gave us a law we could not keep and then condemns us for not being able to do so. How does Jesus answer this?

Jesus gives us absolute freewill to accept or reject Him and then sends us the Holy Spirit to change our characters. It is this changing of our character, or sanctification that will ultimately prove to the universe that Satan is a liar and that his way leads to destruction and death. When this "courtroom" scene is played out, Jesus will be able to point to His people and say "here are they that keep my commandments." By this, Jesus is vindicated and there will never again arise the question as to Jesus being right. His justice will then be perfect and understood by all.


Bold is mine

I contend with you in only a small way here sin is defined as rebellion from Gods Word. (Garden of Eden though shall not eat) not violation of the Law as you cite above. Sin was prevelant before the Law (the 10 commandments) was offered but mankind needed to be taught what sin was and how to be redeemed from it, and that is the true power and Grace of the Law.

[cbut1]

Sabado comes from the word Sabbath. In Spanish, that means Saturday....just a guess????



I didn't ask for the definition of the word, that I already know!

I asked for how the SDA conclude that the Sabbath is still Saturday as man accounts for time.

[cbut1]

No where in Scripture is the Sabbath ever changed. It was changed by man. The reason accepted is that Jesus rose on Sunday. Early Christians did in fact keep the 7th day as the Sabbath but it became to be associated with Judaism and led to the same types of persecution that Jews were receiving. Scripture does not command us to keep Holy the day Jesus rose on, nor honor His birthday (which is not even in the month of December). As God is very meticulous about leaving instruction about how we are to do things (consider the detail given in the OT), does it seem out of character to expect us to honor days such as Jesus' birthday and His resurrection day without leaving similar detail as to how it should be done? I believe it is very out of character, which is evidence to me that He never intended us to keep those days as we do.


Since SDA's are predominatly historicists I hope that they would consider that and factor in their calculation of days that man has had the removal of 1 day from mans timeline.

Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, Saturday, Sunday


Man has arranged days for measurement in such a fashion and it could reasonably be presummed that it has thus been this way for millenia, Correct? Using different words of coarse to identify the day but still being true to the flow and format.

From the time of Adam til Joshua we can comfortably conclude that for mankind time flow had never changed. Until a battle in which God held the Sun high in the sky for nearly a day. Then later on God rolled back the Sun to indicate Hezekias extended life 15 min = 15 yrs. Mankind in the regular flow of time has had 1 day altered on them thus is it possible to show that the Sabbath day may not actually be Saturday since that time flow alteration?

Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, Saturday, Sunday
Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, Saturday, Sunday
Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, Saturday, Sunday,
Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, Saturday, Sunday
Monday, Tuesday, Thursday, Friday, Saturday, Sunday, Monday,
Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, Saturday, Sunday, Monday,
Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, Saturday, Sunday, Monday,
Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, Saturday, Sunday, Monday,


I have asked this same question to a fellow I used to work with who claimed to be SDA but he didn't have an answer to offer. (I admit he wasn't the sharpest tool in the toolbox either) :D

[optrader]

Bold is mine

I contend with you in only a small way here sin is defined as rebellion from Gods Word. (Garden of Eden though shall not eat) not violation of the Law as you cite above. Sin was prevelant before the Law (the 10 commandments) was offered but mankind needed to be taught what sin was and how to be redeemed from it, and that is the true power and Grace of the Law.

1 John 3:4 "Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law."

The law was given in the OT as the 10 commandments. As I believe the commandments to be the perfect description of the character of Christ in word form, (wasn't it the fact that He never broke a commandment that made Him perfect?) that the commandments have always been in existance (because Jesus has always been in existance, and His character has never changed) and would have been given in Eden. If you accept the notion that we are all sinners and fall short of the glory... and the definition of sin as given in the NT, then by what standard were pre Sinai people judged as sinners if the law did not exist? Repentance is a requirement of salvation. If people did not have a definition of sin, how would they know what to repent of? Pretty important question to have answered when salvation is at stake! I think our Jewish brothers would agree here. The commandments pre-dated Mt. Sinai.

[RayMan]

1 John 3:4 "Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law."

The law was given in the OT as the 10 commandments. As I believe the commandments to be the perfect description of the character of Christ in word form, (wasn't it the fact that He never broke a commandment that made Him perfect?) that the commandments have always been in existance (because Jesus has always been in existance, and His character has never changed) and would have been given in Eden. If you accept the notion that we are all sinners and fall short of the glory... and the definition of sin as given in the NT, then by what standard were pre Sinai people judged as sinners if the law did not exist? Repentance is a requirement of salvation. If people did not have a definition of sin, how would they know what to repent of? Pretty important question to have answered when salvation is at stake! I think our Jewish brothers would agree here. The commandments pre-dated Mt. Sinai.


Rom 14:23 And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin

[cbut1]

1 John 3:4 "Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law."

The law was given in the OT as the 10 commandments. As I believe the commandments to be the perfect description of the character of Christ in word form, (wasn't it the fact that He never broke a commandment that made Him perfect?) that the commandments have always been in existance (because Jesus has always been in existance, and His character has never changed) and would have been given in Eden. If you accept the notion that we are all sinners and fall short of the glory... and the definition of sin as given in the NT, then by what standard were pre Sinai people judged as sinners if the law did not exist? Repentance is a requirement of salvation. If people did not have a definition of sin, how would they know what to repent of? Pretty important question to have answered when salvation is at stake! I think our Jewish brothers would agree here. The commandments pre-dated Mt. Sinai.


Bold is mine

I agree that they do but your post above did not give any indication of such belief by you.

Gal 3:18 For if the inheritance is of the law, it is no more of promise: but God hath granted it to Abraham by promise.

Gal 3:19 What then is the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise hath been made; and it was ordained through angels by the hand of a mediator.

Gal 3:20 Now a mediator is not a mediator of one; but God is one.

Gal 3:21 Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could make alive, verily righteousness would have been of the law.

Gal 3:22 But the scriptures shut up all things under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

Gal 3:23 But before faith came, we were kept in ward under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.

Gal 3:24 So that the law is become our tutor to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

Gal 3:25 But now that faith is come, we are no longer under a tutor.

Sin abounded and the Law was given to instruct His creation of their need to be redeemed from that already prevelant sinful condition.

[gpd®]

I didn't ask for the definition of the word, that I already know!

I asked for how the SDA conclude that the Sabbath is still Saturday as man accounts for time.

I understand, but many Sabbath apologists I listen to tend add this factoid in.

[Abe]

Great responses.

This is what I need to know and study.

To me, replacement theology seems to be a man made wisdom that Paul warns about in 1 Corinthians.

Paul states the apostles directly received their wisdom from God. Scriptural knowledge truly comes only from the Holy Spirit.

Does someone actually go in their prayer closet, fast and pray for revelation that the Jews are no longer children of the promise?

Just seems totally contradictory to me.

Yes, the "land of milk and honey" appears to me to be part of their salvation plan. God had interest in the part of the world for a reason.

(I don't know why any of our valued Jewish contributors don't feel it right to step in and prove us right or wrong.)
gpd, thank you for the invitation to come in. I was reading the thread, when I came upon the invitation.

I, as I keep informing everyone, am a secular Jew. I do, however, have a "Jewish mentality" and have had some education in the subject being discussed, both from Jewish and parochial Christian schools. Jews feel that the promise holds true until the end. I, personally, don't live my life as an Orthodox Jew, and don't really worry about this question.

I'll send the question on to Harmonious.

[optrader]

Since SDA's are predominatly historicists I hope that they would consider that and factor in their calculation of days that man has had the removal of 1 day from mans timeline.

Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, Saturday, Sunday


Man has arranged days for measurement in such a fashion and it could reasonably be presummed that it has thus been this way for millenia, Correct? Using different words of coarse to identify the day but still being true to the flow and format.

From the time of Adam til Joshua we can comfortably conclude that for mankind time flow had never changed. Until a battle in which God held the Sun high in the sky for nearly a day. Then later on God rolled back the Sun to indicate Hezekias extended life 15 min = 15 yrs. Mankind in the regular flow of time has had 1 day altered on them thus is it possible to show that the Sabbath day may not actually be Saturday since that time flow alteration?

Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, Saturday, Sunday
Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, Saturday, Sunday
Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, Saturday, Sunday,
Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, Saturday, Sunday
Monday, Tuesday, Thursday, Friday, Saturday, Sunday, Monday,
Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, Saturday, Sunday, Monday,
Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, Saturday, Sunday, Monday,
Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, Saturday, Sunday, Monday,


I have asked this same question to a fellow I used to work with who claimed to be SDA but he didn't have an answer to offer. (I admit he wasn't the sharpest tool in the toolbox either) :D

While today, we have the means to track the movements of the celestial bodies to great degrees of accuracy, and thus determine an exact "time," for all practical purposes, we are concerned with just a few basic motions. The earth's revolution around the sun, which we measure our years by, the moons revolution around the earth, by which we measure our months by, and the earths rotation on its' axis, by which we measure our days.
While scripture says God "rolled back the sun" (though I personally think it is more likely He moved the earth) and thus, from the celestial point of view, we technically lost a day, again for practical purposes we really didn't. If we assume that this battle occurred on a Wednesday and God maintained a noon day sun for 12 hours, while the other celestial bodies continued to move for that 12 hour period, time on earth would seem to have stopped. Yes, the people would certainly recognize that they were moving through time, but that did not change the way they measured it. When God resumed the movement of the sun, the people simply adjusted their time again to the suns movement. To them, their time at the commencement of the suns movement would be the same time as it stopped, noon. When the sun set, they would have reckoned it still as Wedneday evening. Thursday would have followed Wednesday, and so on. It is the unbroken succession of days by which the Sabbath is kept track of, not the hours the celestial bodies have moved. Even when the calendar was changed from the Julian to Gregorian, which was a change of several days, the order of the days was preserved.

One other thing, even if this scenario doesn't make sense, since the Sabbath was instituted by God, and He stopped the sun, I assume He would either ensure our time keeping was kept accurate by some means or forgive us if His actions caused us to get it out of whack!
Thus, the day we call Saturday, is still the 7th day and the sabbath.

[optrader]

Rom 14:23 And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin


Rather a vague statement to stake your salvation on. Ask 100 people their definition of faith and you're likely to get 100 different answers! In order to be fair, I believe God would have left us an objective, definitive way to know whether we are sinning or not. I accept the 10 commandments as just such a standard.

[gpd®]

gpd, thank you for the invitation to come in. I was reading the thread, when I came upon the invitation.

I, as I keep informing everyone, am a secular Jew. I do, however, have a "Jewish mentality" and have had some education in the subject being discussed, both from Jewish and parochial Christian schools. Jews feel that the promise holds true until the end. I, personally, don't live my life as an Orthodox Jew, and don't really worry about this question.

I'll send the question on to Harmonious.

Thanks. God has put hundreds of covenants in the Bible and the debate was that He puts if/then conditions on *all* of His promises.

I just don't read any "if/then" anywhere in Genesis 17.

[optrader]

gpd, thank you for the invitation to come in. I was reading the thread, when I came upon the invitation.

I, as I keep informing everyone, am a secular Jew. I do, however, have a "Jewish mentality" and have had some education in the subject being discussed, both from Jewish and parochial Christian schools. Jews feel that the promise holds true until the end. I, personally, don't live my life as an Orthodox Jew, and don't really worry about this question.

I'll send the question on to Harmonious.

Abe, glad you could join in!! As I have been talking about the Old testament and giving my views of the actions of God in relation to Jews and vice-versa, please feel free to jump in if you feel my portrayal of such is innaccurate. While I'm coming from a Christian perspective, I do not wish to be disrespectful and would welcome your take on my take, so to speak.

[cbut1]

While today, we have the means to track the movements of the celestial bodies to great degrees of accuracy, and thus determine an exact "time," for all practical purposes, we are concerned with just a few basic motions. The earth's revolution around the sun, which we measure our years by, the moons revolution around the earth, by which we measure our months by, and the earths rotation on its' axis, by which we measure our days.
While scripture says God "rolled back the sun" (though I personally think it is more likely He moved the earth) and thus, from the celestial point of view, we technically lost a day, again for practical purposes we really didn't. If we assume that this battle occurred on a Wednesday and God maintained a noon day sun for 12 hours, while the other celestial bodies continued to move for that 12 hour period, time on earth would seem to have stopped. Yes, the people would certainly recognize that they were moving through time, but that did not change the way they measured it. When God resumed the movement of the sun, the people simply adjusted their time again to the suns movement. To them, their time at the commencement of the suns movement would be the same time as it stopped, noon. When the sun set, they would have reckoned it still as Wedneday evening. Thursday would have followed Wednesday, and so on. It is the unbroken succession of days by which the Sabbath is kept track of, not the hours the celestial bodies have moved. Even when the calendar was changed from the Julian to Gregorian, which was a change of several days, the order of the days was preserved.

One other thing, even if this scenario doesn't make sense, since the Sabbath was instituted by God, and He stopped the sun, I assume He would either ensure our time keeping was kept accurate by some means or forgive us if His actions caused us to get it out of whack!
Thus, the day we call Saturday, is still the 7th day and the sabbath.


:D

That was a lot of words to type to end up saying nearly nothing.

For mankind time was altered simple and plain we may have continued as if nothing had but the reality is time was altered as mankind measures it. Perhaps Christ's resurrection is the correction of that long held error

[RayMan]

Rather a vague statement to stake your salvation on. Ask 100 people their definition of faith and you're likely to get 100 different answers! In order to be fair, I believe God would have left us an objective, definitive way to know whether we are sinning or not. I accept the 10 commandments as just such a standard.

I should have included the verse above it. Paul is not talking about eternal damnation here. He is saying if we do something against our faith we will "feel" condemned.

Rom 14:22 Hast thou faith? have it to thyself before God. Happy is he that condemneth not himself in that thing which he alloweth.
Rom 14:23 And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.

[optrader]

I should have included the verse above it. Paul is not talking about eternal damnation here. He is saying if we do something against our faith we will "feel" condemned.

Rom 14:22 Hast thou faith? have it to thyself before God. Happy is he that condemneth not himself in that thing which he alloweth.
Rom 14:23 And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.

Thanks, I needed that! I should have looked it up. It most definetly applies to me. I have a lot of guilt at times for not living up to God's standard. I'm glad we have a loving saviour that is more forgiving than we are.

[optrader]

:D

That was a lot of words to type to end up saying nearly nothing.

For mankind time was altered simple and plain we may have continued as if nothing had but the reality is time was altered as mankind measures it. Perhaps Christ's resurrection is the correction of that long held error

How exactly did people back then measure time? Even if they had mechanical clocks that continued to tick away while the sun was stopped, are you saying that they should have then began reckoning time by what their clocks showed? If God resumed the movement of the sun at 3 AM by their reckoning, should they have then adjusted their lives so that they were either in bed when the sun was directly overhead (because it is, after all, really 3m AM) or changed the normal working hours of their day from about 9 PM to 9 AM so as to be able to take advantage of the hours of daylight?

At creation, We began reckoning our days from sunset to sunset. It was an arbitrary (but sensible) decision to begin the new day (by the reckoning of our clocks) at midnight and adjust our lives to work during the day. Since God stopped the sun, their means of reckoning time stopped as well. It is irrelevant that the rest of the universe continued to move during this time. Since God stopped the sun and did not then tell us to adjust the Sabbath time to account for this, I tend to accept the notion it wasn't necessary. He was satisfied to leave it as it was. Thus, the difference you assert was created, makes no difference.

[lwdc]

gpd®,

15 However, IF you do not obey the LORD your God and do not carefully follow ALL his commands and decrees I am giving you today, [then] all these curses will come upon you and overtake you:
16 You will be cursed in the city and cursed in the country.
17 Your basket and your kneading trough will be cursed.
18 The fruit of your womb will be cursed, and the crops of your land, and the calves of your herds and the lambs of your flocks.
19 You will be cursed when you come in and cursed when you go out.
20 The LORD will send on you curses, confusion and rebuke in everything you put your hand to, until you are destroyed and come to sudden ruin because of the evil you have done in forsaking him. 21 The LORD will plague you with diseases until he has destroyed you from the land you are entering to possess. 22 The LORD will strike you with wasting disease, with fever and inflammation, with scorching heat and drought, with blight and mildew, which will plague you until you perish. 23 The sky over your head will be bronze, the ground beneath you iron. 24 The LORD will turn the rain of your country into dust and powder; it will come down from the skies until you are destroyed.
25 The LORD will cause you to be defeated before your enemies. You will come at them from one direction but flee from them in seven, and you will become a thing of horror to all the kingdoms on earth. 26 Your carcasses will be food for all the birds of the air and the beasts of the earth, and there will be no one to frighten them away. 27 The LORD will afflict you with the boils of Egypt and with tumors, festering sores and the itch, from which you cannot be cured. 28 The LORD will afflict you with madness, blindness and confusion of mind. 29 At midday you will grope about like a blind man in the dark. You will be unsuccessful in everything you do; day after day you will be oppressed and robbed, with no one to rescue you.
30 You will be pledged to be married to a woman, but another will take her and ravish her. You will build a house, but you will not live in it. You will plant a vineyard, but you will not even begin to enjoy its fruit. 31 Your ox will be slaughtered before your eyes, but you will eat none of it. Your donkey will be forcibly taken from you and will not be returned. Your sheep will be given to your enemies, and no one will rescue them. 32 Your sons and daughters will be given to another nation, and you will wear out your eyes watching for them day after day, powerless to lift a hand. 33 A people that you do not know will eat what your land and labor produce, and you will have nothing but cruel oppression all your days. 34 The sights you see will drive you mad. 35 The LORD will afflict your knees and legs with painful boils that cannot be cured, spreading from the soles of your feet to the top of your head.
36 The LORD will drive you and the king you set over you to a nation unknown to you or your fathers. There you will worship other gods, gods of wood and stone. 37 You will become a thing of horror and an object of scorn and ridicule to all the nations where the LORD will drive you.
38 You will sow much seed in the field but you will harvest little, because locusts will devour it. 39 You will plant vineyards and cultivate them but you will not drink the wine or gather the grapes, because worms will eat them. 40 You will have olive trees throughout your country but you will not use the oil, because the olives will drop off. 41 You will have sons and daughters but you will not keep them, because they will go into captivity. 42 Swarms of locusts will take over all your trees and the crops of your land.
43 The alien who lives among you will rise above you higher and higher, but you will sink lower and lower. 44 He will lend to you, but you will not lend to him. He will be the head, but you will be the tail.
45 All these curses will come upon you. They will pursue you and overtake you until you are destroyed, because you did not obey the LORD your God and observe the commands and decrees he gave you. 46 They will be a sign and a wonder to you and your descendants forever.Deut 28

[optrader]

gpd®,

Deut 28


:clap::clap::clap::clap::clap:

Pretty Clear!!!

[gpd®]

gpd®,

Deut 28

I have to check my notes, but doesn't God promise that as long as there remains a faithful remnant, His promise will not go void?

There must obviously still remain a faithful remnant because the Israelis reclaimed their land promised to them so the promise must still live.

Edit: In fact all you read throughout the entire OT is concerning the "faithful remnant."

[lwdc]

I have to check my notes, but doesn't God promise that as long as there remains a faithful remnant, His promise will not go void?

There must obviously still remain a faithful remnant because the Israelis reclaimed their land promised to them so the promise must still live.

Edit: In fact all you read throughout the entire OT is concerning the "faithful remnant."A "faithful remnant" can dwell on The Land without the existence of a modern socialist state to which the unfaithful as well as the faithful have a stake. A modern socialist state and secular government are superfluous with respect to biblical covenants of the Living God. It is neither here nor there.

The Living God keeps His promises. He does as He says with the faithful who obey Him, and He does as He says with those who rebel against Him.

You asked to see an example of an if/then condition from God, and I showed you one.

[gpd®]

Thanks for the info.

I am going to start another thread.

[iamredbeard]

I am also a former SDA so ask me a question, although I must say that I don't think highly of my former church.

[Sketch]

As those who have read my posts realize, I'm a tad outside the mainstream. If you are curious what a self admitted fundamentalist, former SDA believes, fire away...

what is the connection to the Millerites?

[iamredbeard]

what is the connection to the Millerites?

We were formed out of the Millerite movement. Just about every Adventist knows about the "Great Disappointment".

[RayMan]

We were formed out of the Millerite movement. Just about every Adventist knows about the "Great Disappointment".

Shucks, even some of us Pentecostals know about 1844. :mrgreen:

[Abe]

Shucks, even some of us Pentecostals know about 1844. :mrgreen:

We don't...:((

[iamredbeard]

We don't...:((

Basically on October 22nd 1844, the Millerities believed the God was coming on that day. As it turned out they were wrong, many got discouraged and lost their faith. Others returned to the scriptures and studied some more and out of groups like those the Sanctuary Doctrine and the Seventh-Say Adventist Church was formed.

[THE LIGHT]

As those who have read my posts realize, I'm a tad outside the mainstream. If you are curious what a self admitted fundamentalist, former SDA believes, fire away...

First why do you say "former"?

Second, I am gonna read through some of the posts to see what I can learn...

[optrader]

[QUOTE]First why do you say "former"?

Yes, I gave several reasons in an earlier post in this thread.

Second, I am gonna read through some of the posts to see what I can learn...

Great, many questions may have been answered...

[optrader]

what is the connection to the Millerites?

Many Christians dismiss SDA's, believing we predicted the end of the world, which clearly goes against scripture.

William Miller was a BAPTIST preacher and remained so until his death. In the 1830's, Miller began studying end time eschatology. He concluded that Daniel 8:14; " And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed." meant that 1. This is a literal prophecy that has a beginning and end. 2. The beginning of the prophecy coincided with the beginning of the 70 week prophecy in Daniel 9, 457 BC, and would end 2300 years later in 1843. 3. That the sanctuary referred to Earth and 4. That "cleansed" meant Christ would return to carry out the cleansing.

He began to preach this message (which, BTW, was also preached in other areas of the world) and Christians of all denominations accepted this message of hope and began leaving their churches, selling their possessions and preparing for the return of the Saviour. At some point, they realized there was no year zero in the calendar, so they were off by one year, and thus changed the anticipated return of Jesus to October of 1844.

When this time passed, many of the disappointed returned to their formes lives and churches but a core group of believers, Miller included, went back to their study and concluded that while they were obviously wrong in the event of 1844, they were correct that something DID happen.

They began studying the Heavenly sanctuary, described in Hebrews, and came to the new conclusion that what happened in 1844 was that Jesus, in His role as high priest, has ceased His ministry in the Holy place of the Heavenly temple, and moved into the Most Holy Place (or Holy of Holies) in the temple. Here, Jesus is accomplishing the final steps in His plan of redemption. He began judgement of the dead, which will be followed by judgement of the living, and, is finishing the work of atonement, which is the removing of all the collective sins of humanity from HIMSELF. Christians overlook the necessity of such. Do we really want or believe that the sins will remain on Jesus forever? The OT temple system was a shadow of the Heavenly temple system, and portrayed the means in which sin is to be permanently dealt with.

When Jesus is finished with His ministry in the Holy of Holies, He will return. By the events that demonstrate the fulfillment of the historicist view of prophecy, such as the Lisbon earthquake of 1755, the dark day of 1780, the leonid meteor shower of 1833, and many more documented events, SDA's believe the end is very near!

The establishment of the SDA church, the keeping of the 7th day as the Sabbath and many other SDA beliefs did not come about until the 1860's. It is no more accurate to claim that SDA's predicted the end of the world than it is to claim the Baptists did so. I hope this clarifies some misconceptions that many Christians have, and are even taught about SDA's! I will be glad to answer any other questions...

[iamredbeard]

As a former Adventist let me say that the church is basically built around a great series of visions that a woman had. This woman had a 4th grade education and was suffered a severe head injury when she was nine years old. Having said that the all the churches doctrines are based on the bible and not her writings and they can be proved (probably bad word choice) using the Bible without using her writings. What I am getting at is that the church would not be what it is without her writings, but the theology is supported biblicaly and not necessarily through her writings.

[Harmonious]

I'm not a Seventh Day Adventist, but an Orthodox Jew. RayMan invited me to weigh in and answer this particular post. I'm not sure what to say, but I'll do the best I can.

Since SDA's are predominatly historicists I hope that they would consider that and factor in their calculation of days that man has had the removal of 1 day from mans timeline.

Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, Saturday, Sunday


Man has arranged days for measurement in such a fashion and it could reasonably be presummed that it has thus been this way for millenia, Correct? Using different words of coarse to identify the day but still being true to the flow and format.

From the time of Adam til Joshua we can comfortably conclude that for mankind time flow had never changed. Until a battle in which God held the Sun high in the sky for nearly a day. Then later on God rolled back the Sun to indicate Hezekias extended life 15 min = 15 yrs. Mankind in the regular flow of time has had 1 day altered on them thus is it possible to show that the Sabbath day may not actually be Saturday since that time flow alteration?

Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, Saturday, Sunday
Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, Saturday, Sunday
Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, Saturday, Sunday,
Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, Saturday, Sunday
Monday, Tuesday, Thursday, Friday, Saturday, Sunday, Monday,
Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, Saturday, Sunday, Monday,
Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, Saturday, Sunday, Monday,
Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, Saturday, Sunday, Monday,


I have asked this same question to a fellow I used to work with who claimed to be SDA but he didn't have an answer to offer. (I admit he wasn't the sharpest tool in the toolbox either) :D

I'm confused by the post. I would say that none of the countings of the days in the post are correct, but rather the correct counting since the beginning of the world, and has never ended and continues to this day is:

Saturday Night-Sunday, Sunday Night-Monday, Monday Night-Tuesday, Tuesday Night-Wednesday, Wednesday Night-Thursday, Thursday Night-Friday, Friday Night-Saturday

In Hebrew, we call the days, as I've listed them, Yom Rishon (First Day), Yom Sheini (Second Day) and continue with the ordinal numbers. However, the seventh day we never actually call Yom Shevi'i, or Seventh Day, but we call it Shabbat.

[Harmonious]

(I don't know why any of our valued Jewish contributors don't feel it right to step in and prove us right or wrong.):redface:

I've taken a break from Hannity.com for a while, so I didn't know this question existed.

But more to the point, this thread is about someone's belief. I'm not familiar with the SDA belief.

If I told you that you were right, or if I told you that you were wrong, I'm not sure that my answer would be useful, as my belief, and the Orthodox Jewish belief is not the same as the SDA.

I could explain my belief, if people wanted to know and understand my point of view. But it would be fruitless for me to sit here and simply say that "You're right," or "You're wrong."

I could show you proofs all day long, but some might say that my proofs aren't valid because they go against someone else's teaching.

And so, I don't usually get involved in working to prove or disprove someone else's belief.

[optrader]

I'm not a Seventh Day Adventist, but an Orthodox Jew. RayMan invited me to weigh in and answer this particular post. I'm not sure what to say, but I'll do the best I can.



I'm confused by the post. I would say that none of the countings of the days in the post are correct, but rather the correct counting since the beginning of the world, and has never ended and continues to this day is:

Saturday Night-Sunday, Sunday Night-Monday, Monday Night-Tuesday, Tuesday Night-Wednesday, Wednesday Night-Thursday, Thursday Night-Friday, Friday Night-Saturday

In Hebrew, we call the days, as I've listed them, Yom Rishon (First Day), Yom Sheini (Second Day) and continue with the ordinal numbers. However, the seventh day we never actually call Yom Shevi'i, or Seventh Day, but we call it Shabbat.

Thanks for the clarification. It is clear in Genesis that days are reckoned from sundown to sundown. Scripture says "And the evening and morning were of the first day." Evening comes first. The seventh day then, begins at sunset on Friday night.

[gpd®]

:redface:

I've taken a break from Hannity.com for a while, so I didn't know this question existed.

But more to the point, this thread is about someone's belief. I'm not familiar with the SDA belief.

If I told you that you were right, or if I told you that you were wrong, I'm not sure that my answer would be useful, as my belief, and the Orthodox Jewish belief is not the same as the SDA.

I could explain my belief, if people wanted to know and understand my point of view. But it would be fruitless for me to sit here and simply say that "You're right," or "You're wrong."

I could show you proofs all day long, but some might say that my proofs aren't valid because they go against someone else's teaching.

And so, I don't usually get involved in working to prove or disprove someone else's belief.

Thanks for your thoughts. I learned there are hundreds of God's promises in the Bible. I was told here that they are ALL conditional. Meaning if we don't carry out our end, God doesn't have to carry out His end. I don't read this when I read the Bible. I always thought that if there was a remnant who still remained faithful, the covenant will still be valid. I was curious (sorry to use the phrase), what "Old Testament" experts felt or knew. Thanks anyways.

[optrader]

Thanks for your thoughts. I learned there are hundreds of God's promises in the Bible. I was told here that they are ALL conditional. Meaning if we don't carry out our end, God doesn't have to carry out His end. I don't read this when I read the Bible. I always thought that if there was a remnant who still remained faithful, the covenant will still be valid. I was curious (sorry to use the phrase), what "Old Testament" experts felt or knew. Thanks anyways.

What does it mean, exactly, to be faithful, if not to uphold the truths and principles He gives us? Could such truth or principle mean when we give our word, we keep it? What happens if the "remnant" has not remained faithful? The wording of your post is indicative of a 2 way agreement with expectation on both ends! Sounds like a classic if/then situation... just because the "then" isn't given. doesn't mean it isn't implied.

[gpd®]

What does it mean, exactly, to be faithful, if not to uphold the truths and principles He gives us? Could such truth or principle mean when we give our word, we keep it? What happens if the "remnant" has not remained faithful? The wording of your post is indicative of a 2 way agreement with expectation on both ends! Sounds like a classic if/then situation... just because the "then" isn't given. doesn't mean it isn't implied.

Assuming you are correct, the replacement theologist still has the "burden of proof." Is there a present day remnant? If not, how do we know?

But this is why I tried starting another thread. I didn't want to go around and around here so that you could field other questions.

[Harmonious]

Thanks for your thoughts. I learned there are hundreds of God's promises in the Bible. I was told here that they are ALL conditional. Meaning if we don't carry out our end, God doesn't have to carry out His end. I don't read this when I read the Bible. I always thought that if there was a remnant who still remained faithful, the covenant will still be valid. I was curious (sorry to use the phrase), what "Old Testament" experts felt or knew. Thanks anyways.
That makes sense.

Many things are conditional. Living in the Land of Israel in peace is conditional for the Jews, assuming that we live a Torah life. We've been exiled, but the land is still for us, as the agriculture and things in the land don't prosper unless Jews live there. (This doesn't make physical sense, but it is historically accurate.)

Punishments are conditional. Rewards are conditional.

But the actual covenant between God and Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and all the Jews was NEVER conditional.

[Gidon]

Yes, I guess then I believe in the replacement theology. God gave the Jews a final 490 year period (found in Daniel) to end their rebellion against Him. This period began in 457 BC when Artaxerxes gave the command to rebuild and restore Jerusalem and ended in 33 AD with the stoning of Stephen. The message was then to go to the Gentiles.

I don't understand how this is anti-semitic, to believe what scripture says, that only those who accept Christ are saved. Is it anti-muslim or anti-hindu to assert the same to them? Jesus died for Jews as individuals as He did for everyone else, the choice is theirs individually to make. They have the same time frame as anyone else to make this decision, i.e. their lifetime or before Jesus returns, whichever comes first.

But that contradicts Paul who said the gifts and callings of God are without repentance.

and Paul was responsible for the stoning of Stephen Ironically. Why would God choose him to be an apostle?

[Gidon]

That makes sense.

Many things are conditional. Living in the Land of Israel in peace is conditional for the Jews, assuming that we live a Torah life. We've been exiled, but the land is still for us, as the agriculture and things in the land don't prosper unless Jews live there. (This doesn't make physical sense, but it is historically accurate.)

Punishments are conditional. Rewards are conditional.

But the actual covenant between God and Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and all the Jews was NEVER conditional.

The connection between HaShem and the Jews and The Land is eternal and spiritual. He is their God and they are his people. That will never change. He doesn't break promises.

Woe to any one who tries to take the Jews' land from them. Ask Ariel Sharon.

[Gidon]

Assuming you are correct, the replacement theologist still has the "burden of proof." Is there a present day remnant? If not, how do we know?

But this is why I tried starting another thread. I didn't want to go around and around here so that you could field other questions.

I am a Jew who follows Yeshua. Therefore I am part of that remnant.

Haha I never looked at it like that before. Cool I am literally helping fulfill prophecy.

halleujah

[gpd®]

I am a Jew who follows Yeshua. Therefore I am part of that remnant.

Haha I never looked at it like that before. Cool I am literally helping fulfill prophecy.

halleujah

In Ezekiel, God promises deliverance to the righteous remnant. Anyone from this grouping spiritually or literally is indeed blessed.

[Gidon]

In Ezekiel, God promises deliverance to the righteous remnant. Anyone from this grouping spiritually or literally is indeed blessed.

may He deliver me from an Obama presidency

[optrader]

Assuming you are correct, the replacement theologist still has the "burden of proof." Is there a present day remnant? If not, how do we know?

But this is why I tried starting another thread. I didn't want to go around and around here so that you could field other questions.

It is the spiritual heirs of Abraham that are the remnant, not the physical heirs. The Bible is not about two different groups of people, i.e. Jews and gentiles/Christians, it is about one group of people. They are identified as those who hear His voice (not literally "hear", obviously,) accept His truth, as it is revealed, and do His will. I believe that the acceptance of Jesus as His son, that Jesus died for the sins of the world and that Jesus is the Messiah is part of His truth and will.
God started with a group of people. He took them as His own and they accepted Him as their God. When they did not accept what was revealed to them, this new truth, and rejected His will, the promise went to those who did accept this truth. These are the spiritual heirs of Abraham, they are the remnant, and heirs of the promise.

[optrader]

But that contradicts Paul who said the gifts and callings of God are without repentance.

and Paul was responsible for the stoning of Stephen Ironically. Why would God choose him to be an apostle?

Paul did repent, was converted, and accepted Jesus as the messiah. I don't know why He was chosen, perhaps God saw his potential. He was a very powerful voice for Christ in the early days of Christianity.

[gpd®]

It is the spiritual heirs of Abraham that are the remnant, not the physical heirs. The Bible is not about two different groups of people, i.e. Jews and gentiles/Christians, it is about one group of people. They are identified as those who hear His voice (not literally "hear", obviously,) accept His truth, as it is revealed, and do His will. I believe that the acceptance of Jesus as His son, that Jesus died for the sins of the world and that Jesus is the Messiah is part of His truth and will.
God started with a group of people. He took them as His own and they accepted Him as their God. When they did not accept what was revealed to them, this new truth, and rejected His will, the promise went to those who did accept this truth. These are the spiritual heirs of Abraham, they are the remnant, and heirs of the promise.

I fully understand your pov and how you arrive there. But as a dispensationalist, I feel we will always differ.

The covenant or replacement theology you espouse will always be in contradiction of what I believe and practice.

I have a feeling that we will both see each other in heaven though because these doctrinal differences don't affect our personal drives for salvation. Peace.

[Harmonious]

The connection between HaShem and the Jews and The Land is eternal and spiritual. He is their God and they are his people. That will never change. He doesn't break promises.

Woe to any one who tries to take the Jews' land from them. Ask Ariel Sharon.:)

[Harmonious]

It is the spiritual heirs of Abraham that are the remnant, not the physical heirs. Yes it is.
The Bible is not about two different groups of people, i.e. Jews and gentiles/Christians, it is about one group of people.No it isn't, but you are free to believe what you wish.
They are identified as those who hear His voice (not literally "hear", obviously,) accept His truth, as it is revealed, and do His will.*sigh* No, it was actually given to the Jews, standing around Mount Sinai, and their descendants (and the people who join us properly), forever. These are the people who "hear" God's voice.

It is good when other people listen to God's words. But God's Promises written therein aren't aimed at you.

I believe that the acceptance of Jesus as His son, that Jesus died for the sins of the world and that Jesus is the Messiah is part of His truth and will.I know you do.
God started with a group of people. He took them as His own and they accepted Him as their God. When they did not accept what was revealed to them, this new truth, and rejected His will, the promise went to those who did accept this truth. These are the spiritual heirs of Abraham, they are the remnant, and heirs of the promise.
No, actually, not at all.

God Created the world. That is what God started with. And over time, people forgot God. God always loved humanity, no matter what He's done.

But Abraham managed to rediscover God, and God blessed Abraham with a special blessing because of Abraham's recognition of Him.

God still loves the world. But the special promises God made are only to the Jews. God made other promises to the rest of the world, but if you look good and hard at Tanach, you understand that the promises, the covenant, and Abraham's heritage is only aimed at the Jews.

[optrader]

I fully understand your pov and how you arrive there. But as a dispensationalist, I feel we will always differ.

The covenant or replacement theology you espouse will always be in contradiction of what I believe and practice.

I have a feeling that we will both see each other in heaven though because these doctrinal differences don't affect our personal drives for salvation. Peace.

looking forward to the day brother! You'll recognize me, I'll be the guy with a big Jesus size boot print on my backside!

[optrader]

Yes it is.
No it isn't, but you are free to believe what you wish.
*sigh* No, it was actually given to the Jews, standing around Mount Sinai, and their descendants (and the people who join us properly), forever. These are the people who "hear" God's voice.

It is good when other people listen to God's words. But God's Promises written therein aren't aimed at you.

I know you do.

No, actually, not at all.

God Created the world. That is what God started with. And over time, people forgot God. God always loved humanity, no matter what He's done.

But Abraham managed to rediscover God, and God blessed Abraham with a special blessing because of Abraham's recognition of Him.

God still loves the world. But the special promises God made are only to the Jews. God made other promises to the rest of the world, but if you look good and hard at Tanach, you understand that the promises, the covenant, and Abraham's heritage is only aimed at the Jews.

Greetings Harmonius! I genuinely appreciate your input, as well as Abes and Poisonshadys. Take solace in knowing I've always been a little "out there." Even as a child, my imaginary friends didn't want to play with me, Alas, woe is me!!:boohoo:

I do enjoy learning of your beliefs and though I don't share them, I respect them, I truly hope I don't cross the line into disrespct and will accept a stern chastisement if I do. Gods blessings...

[Harmonious]

Greetings Harmonius! I genuinely appreciate your input, as well as Abes and Poisonshadys. Take solace in knowing I've always been a little "out there." Even as a child, my imaginary friends didn't want to play with me, Alas, woe is me!!:boohoo:

I do enjoy learning of your beliefs and though I don't share them, I respect them, I truly hope I don't cross the line into disrespct and will accept a stern chastisement if I do. Gods blessings...
:)

I hope to respond to you more frequently in this and other threads.

[optrader]

:)

I hope to respond to you more frequently in this and other threads.

I welcome your insight!

[iamredbeard]

I want to apologize for my earlier post. I was in a bad mood and felt like stirring things up against those who are in the church that I use to belong. It was trollish on my part.

[jaggy]

How does the SDA come to the conclusion of Saturday being the Sabbath day still?

I give hint to the reason of my question (Hezekiah and Joshua).

The word Sabbath implies rest, peace, tranquillity and refreshment

The seventh day Sabbath according to the Bible, was blessed, sanctified and set apart for sacred use by the God of Israel at the creation of the world, and on that memorable occasion it was first observed by the Lord Himself.
(Genesis 2:2-3)

(Exodus 20:8-10)
If you look up these verses, you'll see they both tell us that God instituted His Sabbath day on the 7th day of the week. All you really need to do is pull out the calendar to see that Saturday is indeed the 7th day of the week and it always has been since God first began the weekly cycle at the beginning of time in the book of Genesis. Encyclopedias and history itself clearly show that the day we call Saturday has always been the 7th day of the week.

[jaggy]

As those who have read my posts realize, I'm a tad outside the mainstream. If you are curious what a self admitted fundamentalist, former SDA believes, fire away...

you seem a very good sabbath school lesson teacher :)

but you say your a former SDA. do you still believe of the fundamental belief of the SDA? and what church do you go now?

[HardHammer]

Anyways Optrader, my original comment was suggesting how we are sure that the RCC is wrong, but we pick and choose many of their practices and call them our own.

We do it in Pentecostalism including having services on Sundays. The SDA's do it by taking their theory of replacment or covenent theology.

We are all brothers, we should exhort each other. We do have a common enemy after all.

Amen Brother!!

Mankind all to many times gets caught up in THEIR beliefs, opposed to what God has given us as a lesson. The common enemy helps to proliferate the seperation and division. Glory to God The Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit should be in the foremost thoughts on mankind, yet the world has done a wonderful job at tearing down His Truth, in place of something close, but not quite the same.

I belong to an Assembly that originated in Ireland around 1832 by John Nelson Darby and other faithful brothers, their observations of the "Church" at that time was that it had become corrupt and self serving to men, not God. So they started their own Assemblies, meeting in homes just like they did during the birth of the Church after the Death of Jesus.

The idea was to remove man from the equation, since we do nothing but corrupt everything we touch, and to rely solely on God for our delivery. To give ALL Glory to He that saves us, Jesus Christ. Our focus is not on what any one man does, or woman, but how we can have the personal relatioship with Jesus that He so wants us to have. We are Sola Scriptura and believe the Holy Bible to be the inerrant Word of God.

Bible Study involves reading straight from the Bible, rightly dividing the Word as we are instructed to do, to be the living sacrafice, to give our mind body and souls to God, placing ourselves last in line to receive anything from anybody on this earth. To operate with all humbleness in reverence to God, putting aside our worldly desire of the flesh and focusing on the day Jesus Christ will reuturn.

I have only known the Lord for 3 years, though it seems like a lifetime, his Mercy and Grace to me was undeserved, I was the Chief of Sinners much like Paul, I'll spare the details, suffice to say I hated everyone except myself.

So I guess my long winded repsonse is to again bring the Focus where it belongs, not on the division of mans theology, but back to the Glory, Thanks and Reverence to Jesus Christ who gave ALL of Himself for us so that we should live Eternally with Him and the Father in Heaven.

Amen

[Koushi Shinigami]

The idea was to remove man from the equation,

good luck with that.

[optrader]

you seem a very good sabbath school lesson teacher :)

but you say your a former SDA. do you still believe of the fundamental belief of the SDA? and what church do you go now?

Yes, I still hold the fundamental beliefs of Adventism. I don't currently attend. If you are a SDA, which you sound like you are, you are probably familiar with a lot of the issues that have come into the church in the last several years. These issues are some I haven't been able to reconcile with. Yes, I was also a Sabbath school teacher, though not in a conference recognized church. Where do you attend and for how long have you been SDA?

[jaggy]

Yes, I still hold the fundamental beliefs of Adventism. I don't currently attend. If you are a SDA, which you sound like you are, you are probably familiar with a lot of the issues that have come into the church in the last several years. These issues are some I haven't been able to reconcile with. Yes, I was also a Sabbath school teacher, though not in a conference recognized church. Where do you attend and for how long have you been SDA?

I am from asia and my family is SDA . so whole my life I practice the fundamental SDA beliefs, but I haven't gone to church for bout a yr or so. although I grew up in the church my dad is a long time elder back where I come from and I am a sabbath school teacher myself. but, I can't found the right SDA church here in the midwest where I live now. seem's like all the church I went they have different kind of traditional service where I am not comfortable. the congregation was little disbanded, I began attending a new ward (congregation), and I still just couldn't find my place. I know it is an absurd assertion. I don't expect everyone to bend over backwards to make me feel welcome. But I just had a hard time. and yes I am familiar with so many issues in the church changes.

[optrader]

I am from asia and my family is SDA . so whole my life I practice the fundamental SDA beliefs, but I haven't gone to church for bout a yr or so. although I grew up in the church my dad is a long time elder back where I come from and I am a sabbath school teacher myself. but, I can't found the right SDA church here in the midwest where I live now. seem's like all the church I went they have different kind of traditional service where I am not comfortable. the congregation was little disbanded, I began attending a new ward (congregation), and I still just couldn't find my place. I know it is an absurd assertion. I don't expect everyone to bend over backwards to make me feel welcome. But I just had a hard time. and yes I am familiar with so many issues in the church changes.

It can be difficult. I've been to many SDA churches and have noticed huge differences in the congregation. Some are very warm and welcoming and other make you feel like an outsider if you visit their church. I hope you find a church home that makes you feel welcome and comfortable and meets your needs spiritually. Where in the midwest are you? I'm from Indiana.

[jaggy]

It can be difficult. I've been to many SDA churches and have noticed huge differences in the congregation. Some are very warm and welcoming and other make you feel like an outsider if you visit their church. I hope you find a church home that makes you feel welcome and comfortable and meets your needs spiritually. Where in the midwest are you? I'm from Indiana.

Thanks. at this point I'm praying to find my church. I need to get back and get involved. I love to sing and have always been involved in music ministry and I miss being a sabbath school children teacher. anyway, thanks for the encouragement or advice I hope the same works for you too . I live in OK. BTW

[HardHammer]

good luck with that.

To base my Beliefs on luck would be to subscribe to the worlds secular thinking, but I base my Beliefs on the Promises of God and His Righteouness, not mine or yours.

[Warrior4God]

Amen Brother!!

Mankind all to many times gets caught up in THEIR beliefs, opposed to what God has given us as a lesson. The common enemy helps to proliferate the seperation and division. Glory to God The Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit should be in the foremost thoughts on mankind, yet the world has done a wonderful job at tearing down His Truth, in place of something close, but not quite the same.

I belong to an Assembly that originated in Ireland around 1832 by John Nelson Darby and other faithful brothers, their observations of the "Church" at that time was that it had become corrupt and self serving to men, not God. So they started their own Assemblies, meeting in homes just like they did during the birth of the Church after the Death of Jesus.

The idea was to remove man from the equation, since we do nothing but corrupt everything we touch, and to rely solely on God for our delivery. To give ALL Glory to He that saves us, Jesus Christ. Our focus is not on what any one man does, or woman, but how we can have the personal relatioship with Jesus that He so wants us to have. We are Sola Scriptura and believe the Holy Bible to be the inerrant Word of God.

Bible Study involves reading straight from the Bible, rightly dividing the Word as we are instructed to do, to be the living sacrafice, to give our mind body and souls to God, placing ourselves last in line to receive anything from anybody on this earth. To operate with all humbleness in reverence to God, putting aside our worldly desire of the flesh and focusing on the day Jesus Christ will reuturn.

I have only known the Lord for 3 years, though it seems like a lifetime, his Mercy and Grace to me was undeserved, I was the Chief of Sinners much like Paul, I'll spare the details, suffice to say I hated everyone except myself.

So I guess my long winded repsonse is to again bring the Focus where it belongs, not on the division of mans theology, but back to the Glory, Thanks and Reverence to Jesus Christ who gave ALL of Himself for us so that we should live Eternally with Him and the Father in Heaven.

Amen

You seem to place all your stock in Jesus being God which I think the SDA kinda don't believe(could be wrong but work with one and he does not believe your God the Son thing.)

As for the glory,thanks and reverence being given to Jesus and not God is a study I am currently doing and gotta say that even Jesus says it is given to God and not him(so far anyway........its like God 100% Jesus 0% )

But its still a study in the works.

[optrader]

You seem to place all your stock in Jesus being God which I think the SDA kinda don't believe(could be wrong but work with one and he does not believe your God the Son thing.)

As for the glory,thanks and reverence being given to Jesus and not God is a study I am currently doing and gotta say that even Jesus says it is given to God and not him(so far anyway........its like God 100% Jesus 0% )

But its still a study in the works.

SDA's believe Jesus is the Son of God and that He was the God of the OT. It was Jesus who revealed God the Father to us. We certainly revere Father, Son and Holy Ghost. It is such mis-conceptions that cause people to think we are cultists or some other negative term. Good luck with your study, but please do not imply SDA's do not give equal reverence to God.

[Warrior4God]

SDA's believe Jesus is the Son of God and that He was the God of the OT. It was Jesus who revealed God the Father to us. We certainly revere Father, Son and Holy Ghost. It is such mis-conceptions that cause people to think we are cultists or some other negative term. Good luck with your study, but please do not imply SDA's do not give equal reverence to God.

I will tell my friend he is wrong on what he thinks ya'll believe.


I did not imply SDA's don't give God reverence.

I said in MY study I don't see Jesus being the subject of that reverence.

But did say the study is ongoing.

[HardHammer]

You seem to place all your stock in Jesus being God which I think the SDA kinda don't believe(could be wrong but work with one and he does not believe your God the Son thing.)

As for the glory,thanks and reverence being given to Jesus and not God is a study I am currently doing and gotta say that even Jesus says it is given to God and not him(so far anyway........its like God 100% Jesus 0% )

But its still a study in the works.

I place my TRUST and FAITH in what Jesus told me, and what the Patriarchs and Prophets said. Let me help you, maybe this will make sense to you.

Think of God the Father as a King, which of course He is, Jesus was a Prince, when the King retires, who is the King? Does the King in retirement cease to influence the Son? Does the Son cease to have respect and reverence for the retired King?

Titus 1:4 (New King James Version)

4 To Titus, a true son in our common faith:
Grace, mercy, and peace from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ our Savior.

Titus 2:9-10 (New King James Version)

9 Exhort bondservants to be obedient to their own masters, to be well pleasing in all things, not answering back, 10 not pilfering, but showing all good fidelity, that they may adorn the doctrine of God our Savior in all things.


Titus 3:4-7 (New King James Version)

4 But when the kindness and the love of God our Savior toward man appeared, 5 not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit, 6 whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7 that having been justified by His grace we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

Now I must ask, who is your Savior?

The Father delt directly with mankind for hundreds of years, He grew weary of mans corruption and deceipt and almost destroyed all of mankind, but spared 8 people.

He then sent His Son down to earth to Show/Tell mankind His Will for them, did they listen? Some did, but the ones He was trying to teach rejected His Son and hung Him on a Cross at Calvary.

Now Then, the Son is no longer available, so the Holy Spirit was sent to mankind, to indwell in us, to testify to the Gospel and it's Truth. I pray to the Father in the name of the Son, like I have been told to do, not by men of this world, but Jesus Christ my Savior.

Philippians 2:5-11 (New King James Version)

5 Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, 7 but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men. 8 And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross. 9 Therefore God also has highly exalted Him and given Him the name which is above every name, 10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth, 11 and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

[Warrior4God]

I place my TRUST and FAITH in what Jesus told me, and what the Patriarchs and Prophets said. Let me help you, maybe this will make sense to you.

Think of God the Father as a King, which of course He is, Jesus was a Prince, when the King retires, who is the King? Does the King in retirement cease to influence the Son? Does the Son cease to have respect and reverence for the retired King?

Titus 1:4 (New King James Version)

4 To Titus, a true son in our common faith:
Grace, mercy, and peace from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ our Savior.

Titus 2:9-10 (New King James Version)

9 Exhort bondservants to be obedient to their own masters, to be well pleasing in all things, not answering back, 10 not pilfering, but showing all good fidelity, that they may adorn the doctrine of God our Savior in all things.


Titus 3:4-7 (New King James Version)

4 But when the kindness and the love of God our Savior toward man appeared, 5 not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit, 6 whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7 that having been justified by His grace we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

Now I must ask, who is your Savior?

The Father delt directly with mankind for hundreds of years, He grew weary of mans corruption and deceipt and almost destroyed all of mankind, but spared 8 people.

He then sent His Son down to earth to Show/Tell mankind His Will for them, did they listen? Some did, but the ones He was trying to teach rejected His Son and hung Him on a Cross at Calvary.

Now Then, the Son is no longer available, so the Holy Spirit was sent to mankind, to indwell in us, to testify to the Gospel and it's Truth. I pray to the Father in the name of the Son, like I have been told to do, not by men of this world, but Jesus Christ my Savior.

Philippians 2:5-11 (New King James Version)

5 Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, 7 but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men. 8 And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross. 9 Therefore God also has highly exalted Him and given Him the name which is above every name, 10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth, 11 and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
By studying the relevant biblical records, we learn that Yahweh did not “save” Israel by doing the job Himself, or by becoming Joshua.

Joshua “saved” Israel by obeying God and leading the children of Israel out of the wilderness and into the Promised Land.

The salvation was wrought by God empowering both Joshua and the people who went forth in faith to claim the victory that God guaranteed for them if they would go get it.

Yet leading up to this victorious accomplishment of Joshua’s were several prophetic utterances spoken by God Himself, strongly stating that He would do the job. For example:

Exodus 23:23,27, and 28
(23) My angel will go ahead of you and bring you into the land of the Amorites, Hittites, Perizzites, Canaanites, Hivites and Jebusites, and I will wipe them out.
(27) I will send my terror ahead of you and throw into confusion every nation you encounter. I will make all your enemies turn their backs and run
(28) I will send the hornet ahead of you to drive the Hivites, Canaanites and Hittites out of your way.

It seems very clear in verse 23 that God said that He Himself would do the delivering. But, in this same context a few verses later, He says that the Israelites will drive His enemies out:

Exodus 23:31
I will establish your borders from the Red Sea to the Sea of the Philistines, and from the desert to the River. I will hand over to you the people who live in the land and you will drive them out before you.

What is going on? Is God the “savior” here or not? The fact is, this is typical of prophetic language.

I wanted to post some sites that deal with this subject and one of them is where some of this information comes from but can't get there now for some reason.


The point is that men as well as God are saviours in the Bible as they act as Gods agents the way Christ did so the saviour arguement falls short.

[BOOOOOOSHHHH]

No one ever changed the Sabbath day to SUNDAY

The Sabbath commemorated a finished creation with rest. The first day commemorates a finished redemption and a new work.

The Sabbath commemorates Israel’s deliverance from Egyptian slavery and God resting on the 7th day. The first day commemorates Christ’s resurrection, victory over death and eternal punishment . It gives hope that all who believe will also be resurrected from the dead.

The Sabbath is a day of rest and quiet. The first day is a day of worship and praise. Sabbath means rest, not Saturday! There were other Sabbaths given to Israel on other days. The Sabbath was made for man to rest, God was telling Israel to keep the rest, their focus was not a day.

Christians met in houses for their assemblies Philemon 2, Romans 16:5, Col.4:15. According to the Sabbatarian's they were to assemble together in the temple so they are breaking the Sabbath not keeping it.

The New Testament, principle is given in Heb.10:24-25: "And let us consider one another in order to stir up love and good works, not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as is the manner of some, but exhorting one another, and so much the more as you see the Day approaching." If on does not want to assemble with the rest of the believers during a service certainly reveals a spiritual anemia. The day of the week to assemble is of the church’s choice whether it be Monday, Wednesday or Saturday. Many churches today have Saturday services as well as Sunday. The New Testament has no legislation for which day we are to assemble. History shows the early church chose Sunday because of its significance, not because they hated the Sabbath. Almost all the church the first 10 years were Jews they certainly knew the difference. How can a believing church meet in an unbelieving Synagogue. To meet together in worship is beneficial to oneself and others. It stirs up others to hear what God is doing in each others life. This verse of Hebrews tells us to encourage each other by being present.

1 Cor. 16:1-2: "Now concerning the collection for the saints, as I have given orders to the churches of Galatia, so you must do also: On the first day of the week let each one of you lay something aside, storing up as he may prosper, that there be no collections when I come". To give has always been a means of worship. Paul sets the rule telling them as they gather together to take up an offering. This is not a tithe as in the O T. but a principle of as the Lord has prospered you, ( giving cheerfully not out of obligation) there is an absence of legalism that one would find under the law. Notice he says that he has instructed the church’s in Galatia the same as the Corinthians. This certainly indicates this was not an isolated command but a common practice during even the apostles time to gather on Sunday.

Acts 20:7: "Now on the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul, ready to depart the next day, spoke to them and continued his message until midnight." When to come together was an option of choice not obligation. Obviously this was decided upon and they were already carrying it out by the apostles. To break bread consisted of what is called a love feast, eating a meal and taking communion which is to be done in an assembly. Paul was speaking til midnight. The Jewish first day began on sundown Saturday so this took place Saturday night Through the first day, after the Sabbath.

The truth is 9 of the commandments Ex.20:3-4 are repeated and incorporated in the New Testament epistles but the 4th one is not, why?

The 1st and 2nd commandment- which prohibit the worship of other Gods (50 times) and idols are repeated (12 times) Acts 15:29, 17:16: Rom.1:25; 1 Cor.6:9-10, 10:14: 1 Jn.5:21: Rev.21:8, 22:15.

The 3rd commandment of reverencing his name not to take it in vain (4 times ) Ex.20:7 is also repeated in the New Testament Mt.5:33; James 5:12.

The 4th commandment- ? Where do the apostles teach to keep the Sabbath? Its missing even for the Gentiles who had no concept of the Jewish laws would need to be instructed.

the 5th commandment- to respect your parents is also repeated (6 times) Mt.15:4-9: Eph.6:1-3 and Rom.13:1-7.

The 6th commandment- of forbidding murder Ex.20:13 is in the New Testament (4 times). Rom.13:9; Mt.19:18 and the true intent is explained in Mt.5:21-22

The 7th commandment- prohibiting adultery and any sexual sin Ex.20:14 is also found ( 12 times) in Acts.15:20; Rom.2:22, 13:13: 1 Cor.5:11, 6:9, 13,15, 18: 10:8: Eph.5:3,11-12.

The 8th commandment- forbids one to be dishonest, stealing,Ex.20:15 is found in the New Testament (6 times) Rom. 2:21 Eph. 4:28: 1Thess.4:6: Jms.5:4; Mk.10:19; Lk.18:20.

The 9th commandment- condemning a false witness, to lie Ex.20:16 is found in the New Testament (4 times) Mt.15:19,19:18; Lk.3:14 and 1 Tim.1:9-10.

The 10th commandment- tells us not to covet Ex.20:17 is repeated (9 times) in Mk.7:21-23; Lk.12:15,33-34; Rom.1:29, 13:9 1 Cor.5:11; 6:10; Eph.5:3.

Isn’t it amazing the one law that the legalists use to bully everyone around to show their disobedience is not found specifically in the New Testament. Why? Not because its practice was self evident as some claim! Its just as self evident not to murder. This was law before the 10 commandments but it is repeated often. The answer is in the fact the Sabbath is not suppose to be there! Not once in the New Testament is breaking the Sabbath called a sin or do we find anyone punished for it. Its ceremonial not moral because the very things forbidden for that day are allowed on all others , this would not be so if it was a moral law.

[HardHammer]

By studying the relevant biblical records, we learn that Yahweh did not “save” Israel by doing the job Himself, or by becoming Joshua.

Joshua “saved” Israel by obeying God and leading the children of Israel out of the wilderness and into the Promised Land.

The salvation was wrought by God empowering both Joshua and the people who went forth in faith to claim the victory that God guaranteed for them if they would go get it.

Yet leading up to this victorious accomplishment of Joshua’s were several prophetic utterances spoken by God Himself, strongly stating that He would do the job. For example:

Exodus 23:23,27, and 28
(23) My angel will go ahead of you and bring you into the land of the Amorites, Hittites, Perizzites, Canaanites, Hivites and Jebusites, and I will wipe them out.
(27) I will send my terror ahead of you and throw into confusion every nation you encounter. I will make all your enemies turn their backs and run
(28) I will send the hornet ahead of you to drive the Hivites, Canaanites and Hittites out of your way.

It seems very clear in verse 23 that God said that He Himself would do the delivering. But, in this same context a few verses later, He says that the Israelites will drive His enemies out:

Exodus 23:31
I will establish your borders from the Red Sea to the Sea of the Philistines, and from the desert to the River. I will hand over to you the people who live in the land and you will drive them out before you.

What is going on? Is God the “savior” here or not? The fact is, this is typical of prophetic language.

I wanted to post some sites that deal with this subject and one of them is where some of this information comes from but can't get there now for some reason.


The point is that men as well as God are saviours in the Bible as they act as Gods agents the way Christ did so the saviour arguement falls short.

Rather than attempt to throw up a smoke screen, you could have just said, I don't believe it, for your example bears no witness to His Glory, just yours in denial of His Majesty.

[optrader]

No one ever changed the Sabbath day to SUNDAY

Correct!, though the early catholic church fathers changed the day of worship from the 7th day to first. The reason was because Christians, who kept the 7th day for 2-3 centuries after Christ, were mistaken for Jews and were receiving the same persecution. The justification actually used was that Christ rose on the first day of the week. The catholic church admits this. It was the sabbath issue that allowed the Catholic church, during the council of Trent, to proclaim protestants as hypocrits for claiming sola scriptura, condemning tradition and yet keeping the day chosen by them.

The Sabbath commemorated a finished creation with rest.

Correct again, scripture makes it clear that the Sabbath is a perpetual commemoration od God's creation.

The first day commemorates a finished redemption and a new work.

Please provide the scripture that supports this!

The Sabbath commemorates Israel’s deliverance from Egyptian slavery and God resting on the 7th day. The first day commemorates Christ’s resurrection, victory over death and eternal punishment . It gives hope that all who believe will also be resurrected from the dead.

If Jesus wanted us to commemorate the day of His ressurrection, why isn't such instruction in the NT, which you claim to be using as your source?

The Sabbath is a day of rest and quiet. The first day is a day of worship and praise. Sabbath means rest, not Saturday! There were other Sabbaths given to Israel on other days. The Sabbath was made for man to rest, God was telling Israel to keep the rest, their focus was not a day.

Again, supporting scripture?

Christians met in houses for their assemblies Philemon 2, Romans 16:5, Col.4:15. According to the Sabbatarian's they were to assemble together in the temple so they are breaking the Sabbath not keeping it.

The New Testament, principle is given in Heb.10:24-25: "And let us consider one another in order to stir up love and good works, not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as is the manner of some, but exhorting one another, and so much the more as you see the Day approaching." If on does not want to assemble with the rest of the believers during a service certainly reveals a spiritual anemia. The day of the week to assemble is of the church’s choice whether it be Monday, Wednesday or Saturday. Many churches today have Saturday services as well as Sunday. The New Testament has no legislation for which day we are to assemble. History shows the early church chose Sunday because of its significance, not because they hated the Sabbath. Almost all the church the first 10 years were Jews they certainly knew the difference. How can a believing church meet in an unbelieving Synagogue. To meet together in worship is beneficial to oneself and others. It stirs up others to hear what God is doing in each others life. This verse of Hebrews tells us to encourage each other by being present.

1 Cor. 16:1-2: "Now concerning the collection for the saints, as I have given orders to the churches of Galatia, so you must do also: On the first day of the week let each one of you lay something aside, storing up as he may prosper, that there be no collections when I come". To give has always been a means of worship. Paul sets the rule telling them as they gather together to take up an offering. This is not a tithe as in the O T. but a principle of as the Lord has prospered you, ( giving cheerfully not out of obligation) there is an absence of legalism that one would find under the law. Notice he says that he has instructed the church’s in Galatia the same as the Corinthians. This certainly indicates this was not an isolated command but a common practice during even the apostles time to gather on Sunday.

Acts 20:7: "Now on the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul, ready to depart the next day, spoke to them and continued his message until midnight." When to come together was an option of choice not obligation. Obviously this was decided upon and they were already carrying it out by the apostles. To break bread consisted of what is called a love feast, eating a meal and taking communion which is to be done in an assembly. Paul was speaking til midnight. The Jewish first day began on sundown Saturday so this took place Saturday night Through the first day, after the Sabbath.

The truth is 9 of the commandments Ex.20:3-4 are repeated and incorporated in the New Testament epistles but the 4th one is not, why?

The 1st and 2nd commandment- which prohibit the worship of other Gods (50 times) and idols are repeated (12 times) Acts 15:29, 17:16: Rom.1:25; 1 Cor.6:9-10, 10:14: 1 Jn.5:21: Rev.21:8, 22:15.

The 3rd commandment of reverencing his name not to take it in vain (4 times ) Ex.20:7 is also repeated in the New Testament Mt.5:33; James 5:12.

The 4th commandment- ? Where do the apostles teach to keep the Sabbath? Its missing even for the Gentiles who had no concept of the Jewish laws would need to be instructed.

the 5th commandment- to respect your parents is also repeated (6 times) Mt.15:4-9: Eph.6:1-3 and Rom.13:1-7.

The 6th commandment- of forbidding murder Ex.20:13 is in the New Testament (4 times). Rom.13:9; Mt.19:18 and the true intent is explained in Mt.5:21-22

The 7th commandment- prohibiting adultery and any sexual sin Ex.20:14 is also found ( 12 times) in Acts.15:20; Rom.2:22, 13:13: 1 Cor.5:11, 6:9, 13,15, 18: 10:8: Eph.5:3,11-12.

The 8th commandment- forbids one to be dishonest, stealing,Ex.20:15 is found in the New Testament (6 times) Rom. 2:21 Eph. 4:28: 1Thess.4:6: Jms.5:4; Mk.10:19; Lk.18:20.

The 9th commandment- condemning a false witness, to lie Ex.20:16 is found in the New Testament (4 times) Mt.15:19,19:18; Lk.3:14 and 1 Tim.1:9-10.

The 10th commandment- tells us not to covet Ex.20:17 is repeated (9 times) in Mk.7:21-23; Lk.12:15,33-34; Rom.1:29, 13:9 1 Cor.5:11; 6:10; Eph.5:3.

Isn’t it amazing the one law that the legalists use to bully everyone around to show their disobedience is not found specifically in the New Testament. Why? Not because its practice was self evident as some claim! Its just as self evident not to murder. This was law before the 10 commandments but it is repeated often. The answer is in the fact the Sabbath is not suppose to be there! Not once in the New Testament is breaking the Sabbath called a sin or do we find anyone punished for it. Its ceremonial not moral because the very things forbidden for that day are allowed on all others , this would not be so if it was a moral law.

What's amazing is your forgetting Jesus and the Apostles were Jews. The only Sabbath they knew was the 7th day of the week. You can not provide a single scripture in the NT that says it was changed! You left out act 17 "1: Now when they had passed through Amphipolis and Apollonia, they came to Thessalonica, where was a synagogue of the Jews 2: And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and three sabbath days reasoned with them out of the scriptures, "

Paul was clearly preaching on the Sabbath 30 years after Jesus died, and scripture says this was his manner! Jesus said "If you love me, keep my commandments" and "He who says he loves me and keeps not my commandments is a liar." In my Bible, Jesus does not
exempt the 4th commandment from His statements, does He in yours?

Why should it have to be restated in the NT that the commandments are still valid, it's your claim that the 4th was abolished. The burden of proof is on you. You have freewill to do or believe whatever you wish, however, you can't back up this claim with anything other than opinion.

[iamredbeard]

Just wanted to share this little saying that an Adventist shared with me regarding Z-Adventists. You can take someone out of the SDA Church, but you can't take the SDA Church away from them. I was born and raised in the church and even though I am no longer a member, the church still has a strong hold on me.

[RayMan]

Just wanted to share this little saying that an Adventist shared with me regarding Z-Adventists. You can take someone out of the SDA Church, but you can't take the SDA Church away from them. I was born and raised in the church and even though I am no longer a member, the church still has a strong hold on me.

My wife and I have a friend like that. No matter how long it was since she had left the SDA she still felt a little bit guilty about attending a "Sunday Church."

[iamredbeard]

My wife and I have a friend like that. No matter how long it was since she had left the SDA she still felt a little bit guilty about attending a "Sunday Church."

I really don't feel guilty, but I have so much SDA theology entrenched in many that I really can't totally accept another denomination. So much I agree with, yet still have many problems with the church. So I am left without belonging to any church. :confused:

[optrader]

I really don't feel guilty, but I have so much SDA theology entrenched in many that I really can't totally accept another denomination. So much I agree with, yet still have many problems with the church. So I am left without belonging to any church. :confused:

Ditto!!

[RayMan]

I really don't feel guilty, but I have so much SDA theology entrenched in many that I really can't totally accept another denomination. So much I agree with, yet still have many problems with the church. So I am left without belonging to any church. :confused:

I'm pretty much in the same boat. :hug:

[angelicmadrigal]

As those who have read my posts realize, I'm a tad outside the mainstream. If you are curious what a self admitted fundamentalist, former SDA believes, fire away...

My mean Grandma was one of those!

[optrader]

I'm pretty much in the same boat. :hug:

Maybe we should form our own church! :think:

[RayMan]

Maybe we should form our own church! :think:

"Seventh Day Three Amigos Pentecostal Assembly of Yahweh."


Actually, driving through Arkansas and Mississippi a few years back I remember passing churches with even weirder names that that.

[optrader]

"Seventh Day Three Amigos Pentecostal Assembly of Yahweh."

I'm there!! How about "the first church of three guys searching for the truth?"


Actually, driving through Arkansas and Mississippi a few years back I remember passing churches with even weirder names that that.

I was stationed in Mississippi for a year, been through some pretty rural areas, yeah, know what you mean!

[RayMan]

I was stationed in Mississippi for a year, been through some pretty rural areas, yeah, know what you mean!

What are your feelings about bringing timber rattlers and cottonmouths to church? :whistle: :whistle: :whistle:

[iamredbeard]

Maybe we should form our own church! :think:

My belief system is more closely aligned with Seventh-Day Baptists than any other group. Unfortunately there are very few of those churches.

[Gidon]

As those who have read my posts realize, I'm a tad outside the mainstream. If you are curious what a self admitted fundamentalist, former SDA believes, fire away...

My SDA friend is not a big carnivore. why?

[tracifish]

As those who have read my posts realize, I'm a tad outside the mainstream. If you are curious what a self admitted fundamentalist, former SDA believes, fire away...

Are you a former SDA? Who is Ellen G. White?

[iamredbeard]

Are you a former SDA? Who is Ellen G. White?

Are you serious?

[RayMan]

Are you serious?

Yes she is.

[iamredbeard]

Ellen White was a prophet and one of the early leaders of the Adventist Church. She wrote many book, who most Adventists believe were divinely inspired. She was hit in the head with a rock as a kid and went into a coma and never went back to school. Many of her critics claim that she suffered a brain injury and those visions that she had were just delusions caused by that brain injury. I happen to think that she was a prophet who God used to spread his message.

That is a short version, I could go on and on but you get the point. Doing a goggle or yahoo search on her would give you more information on her.


http://www.azsromania.org/egw/gif/EllenGW.jpg

[optrader]

My SDA friend is not a big carnivore. why?

SDAs believe that there is a health message in the Bible and that God expects us to treat our bodies as temples. it was not Gods' intention that we eat meat, he gave us permission only after the flood because all the vegetation was dead. Many adventists are thus vegetarians, and many are vegans due to this belief. Meat eating is not a doctrine and does not prevent a carnivore from being a member of the SDA church. Adventists recognize that God did give permission to eat meat, however, the meat, and in fact the whole diet should uphold the dietary laws found in Leviticus 11.

[optrader]

Are you a former SDA? Who is Ellen G. White?

Yes, I am a former SDA. I am a former SDA because I believe the church has allower too much of the world in and no longer upholds the truths that God gave. The mainstream church is distancing itself from many historic Adventist teachings and beliefs.

[optrader]

What are your feelings about bringing timber rattlers and cottonmouths to church? :whistle: :whistle: :whistle:

If I have to suck poison from someones snakebite to save their life, THEY'RE GONNA DIE!!

[Gidon]

SDAs believe that there is a health message in the Bible and that God expects us to treat our bodies as temples. it was not Gods' intention that we eat meat, he gave us permission only after the flood because all the vegetation was dead. Many adventists are thus vegetarians, and many are vegans due to this belief. Meat eating is not a doctrine and does not prevent a carnivore from being a member of the SDA church. Adventists recognize that God did give permission to eat meat, however, the meat, and in fact the whole diet should uphold the dietary laws found in Leviticus 11.


Thank you.


My SDA friend is a key trading partner. We eat lunch together sometimes. He always orders vegetarian dishes. When its my turn to choose where we eat I usually go Italian b/c there are a lot of tasty options that don't have the meat.

It seems to me to continue this as I do not wish to offend.

[Gidon]

Yes, I am a former SDA. I am a former SDA because I believe the church has allower too much of the world in and no longer upholds the truths that God gave. The mainstream church is distancing itself from many historic Adventist teachings and beliefs.

That is happening in many denominations my friend.

[texan_rep]

You showed a slight disdain for the RCC but you both practice "replacement theology" which was introduced by the RCC and practiced by JW's.

Are there any other practices that the SDA shares with denominations they don't agree with?

Thanks, I hope the question didn't come across to harsh.

:eek:

Ummmmmm...no, Catholics do not believe the Jews have "lost their inheritance"...what is your source for that statement?

[optrader]

Thank you.


My SDA friend is a key trading partner. We eat lunch together sometimes. He always orders vegetarian dishes. When its my turn to choose where we eat I usually go Italian b/c there are a lot of tasty options that don't have the meat.

It seems to me to continue this as I do not wish to offend.

You're welcome. SDAS are not offended though by what others eat, it is a personal thing.

[jade84116]

Do you believe that we have a spirit like our bodies within us or do you believe we're just body and breath united? How do you square your sabbatarianism with the Post-Apostolic Father's insistence that the Lord's Day is Sunday? How's sabbatarianism not legalism?:)

[Harmonious]

:eek:

Ummmmmm...no, Catholics do not believe the Jews have "lost their inheritance"...what is your source for that statement?
:hug:

It's been a while, and you needed a random hug...

[optrader]

Do you believe that we have a spirit like our bodies within us or do you believe we're just body and breath united? How do you square your sabbatarianism with the Post-Apostolic Father's insistence that the Lord's Day is Sunday? How's sabbatarianism not legalism?:)


Genesis says God breathed in the breath of life and man BECAME a living soul, we are body and breath. A soul is what we are, not what we have. Ever hear the expression "he breathed his last?" What does it mean? It means when we die, there is one final inhalation and exhalation, this final exhalation or breath is what God gave us and what returns to Him. Nothing in scripture ascribes any living characteristics to the breath of life God gave us.


"For the son of man is Lord, even of the sabbath." These are the words of Jesus and indicate which day HE regarded as His day. Also, there is no scripture that changes the Sabbath. The attempted change, that most have accepted as an actual change is man-made.

I would accept the possibility of keeping the sabbath "legalism" if you could tell me which other of the commandments we may break without repentance, and without the claim of legalism being made. Thus far, not a single person has proposed such a list, let alone produced one. :think:

[RayMan]

If I have to suck poison from someones snakebite to save their life, THEY'RE GONNA DIE!!

A lot depends on the location of the bite IMHO.

[RayMan]

Genesis says God breathed in the breath of life and man BECAME a living soul, we are body and breath. A soul is what we are, not what we have. Ever hear the expression "he breathed his last?" What does it mean? It means when we die, there is one final inhalation and exhalation, this final exhalation or breath is what God gave us and what returns to Him. Nothing in scripture ascribes any living characteristics to the breath of life God gave us.


"For the son of man is Lord, even of the sabbath." These are the words of Jesus and indicate which day HE regarded as His day. Also, there is no scripture that changes the Sabbath. The attempted change, that most have accepted as an actual change is man-made.

I would accept the possibility of keeping the sabbath "legalism" if you could tell me which other of the commandments we may break without repentance, and without the claim of legalism being made. Thus far, not a single person has proposed such a list, let alone produced one. :think:

Nicely put.

[texan_rep]

:hug:

It's been a while, and you needed a random hug...

:redface:

[optrader]

A lot depends on the location of the bite IMHO.

That, of course, would be a consideration. :D

[Harmonious]

:redface:

It is a beautiful thing. :D

[jade84116]

Genesis says God breathed in the breath of life and man BECAME a living soul, we are body and breath. A soul is what we are, not what we have. Ever hear the expression "he breathed his last?" What does it mean? It means when we die, there is one final inhalation and exhalation, this final exhalation or breath is what God gave us and what returns to Him. Nothing in scripture ascribes any living characteristics to the breath of life God gave us.


"For the son of man is Lord, even of the sabbath." These are the words of Jesus and indicate which day HE regarded as His day. Also, there is no scripture that changes the Sabbath. The attempted change, that most have accepted as an actual change is man-made.

I would accept the possibility of keeping the sabbath "legalism" if you could tell me which other of the commandments we may break without repentance, and without the claim of legalism being made. Thus far, not a single person has proposed such a list, let alone produced one. :think:

Wow! What an answer! Go to http://www.bible.ca/7-lords-day.htm for the Post-Apostolic or Ante-Nicene Father's view of the Lord's Day that I alluded to though.:)

[meggers49]

You showed a slight disdain for the RCC but you both practice "replacement theology" which was introduced by the RCC and practiced by JW's.

Are there any other practices that the SDA shares with denominations they don't agree with?

Thanks, I hope the question didn't come across to harsh.

as to highlighted: we do?

one of my very dearest friends is SDA, we agree on much more than we don't agree.

[azariahtheprophet]

I'm new here because I've just come into the knowledge of all of whats taken place with not only America and it's involvement with Masons/Illuminati but this quest for knowledge took me across seas to Europe where I learned of the Vatican,knights of malta, the corrupt RCC and basically how the state the world is in today is all in the good ol Holy Bible!

But I see there is a lot of discrepency amongst the SDA movement and I almost was lead astray again when I found a lot of sites trying to debunk their movement but I read even here SDA is thought to be a cult of some sort all because we uphold the Sabbath on Saturday.

Well after learning all this vast amount of knowledge and waking up from 'the matrix' i was taken into a trip into the supernatural interview with Roger Morneau which can easily be found on google under video but he spoke of his involvement with Secret High Society's as I'm sure we've all come across knowing their involvement in this world of deceit, but he was about to be initiated and Seventh Day Adventists saved him but point being in this video alone it tells you how although the unmentionable guy is trying to inflitrate the SDA church and corrupt it, it's only because they are the only church that can't fall under the illusion of the great deception he has put on this whole world.

I really want you guys to look at this video as it may solve alot of answers on this site because we must look at things with an open mind realizing theres two sides to every story and Roger Morneau gives a BIG example of that in this 3 hr video...

May I also throw in I haven't stepped foot in a church in 13 yrs I consider myself one of those lost sheep but I found my way into SDA recently, which I can never be more greatful for finding..one thing we all must realize every church is open to be corrupted but it is up to us the true believers to oppose this from happening.

It's like we're all Neo in the matrix it's up to us to stop this and correct the wrongs that are going on, that is why we study scripture for it's good we can exchange how we agree on how we inerpret the scriptures on here but what good is it doing the SDA foollowers who are being lead astray?

Fact is there needs to be open discussion amongst Churches. From discussion comes understanding.

And lastly we all know the Most High works in mysterious ways, well how about the fact the guy Roger Morneau was all the way from montreal canada, and I'm from NC but the Priest's mother knew him personally and she even spoke how he was involved with the high society and turned to become an Adventist, sadly he is no longer amongst us...but where it gets even stranger the Preist lives on the same street as me!

i take these as divine signs from the Most high because we can all agree that the answers you look for are usually hidden in plain sight!

Watch A Trip Into The Supernatural interview with Roger Morneau!

We must stand up and keep our SDA churches from being inflitrated!

[azariahtheprophet]

also I came across remnantofgod.org although he gives credible information regarding the RCC and other denominations it's taken over,

He also tries to debunk the SDA and Ellen G White claiming they are in the wrong and the SDA represents the woman the dragon is protecting and Christians who practice the Sabbath(which are hard to find) are the remnant of the seed.

Which I find hard to believe with all the information out there on how Christianity was basically fused with Paganism and other religions by Constantine and Popes of the RCC.

And also I'd like to throw in the fact that i've looked up churches on the internet and called the ones locally that use the title 'remnant' in their fellowships and most keep the worship on Sunday which tells me SDA has got to be the answer, and it's up to us to keep it from being taken over.

Roger Morneau's testimoney and how strange it ties into my life has got to be some kind of divine sign of some sort???

[azariahtheprophet]

What is the deal with Yeshua,YHWH,and Elohim?

and was Jesus really our saviors name considering J's didn't exist during his time?

[orbitaldecay]

Welcome to the forum azariahtheprophet!

It might be wise to read this (the Religion Forum Rules) if you already haven't:

http://forums.hannity.com/showthread.php?t=68516

[iamredbeard]

Wow! What an answer! Go to http://www.bible.ca/7-lords-day.htm for the Post-Apostolic or Ante-Nicene Father's view of the Lord's Day that I alluded to though.:)

I must say that I can't accept that point of view. I don't believe that the Sabbath Day was really ever changed by the Almighty.

[azariahtheprophet]

thank u for the welcome and yes i viewed them although if any of my posts offended it wasn't intentional i never try to offend people or act immature i just try and provide what i know not saying what i know is right but i put it out there to be discussed..i feel i touched on some pretty good interesting subjects..

[iamredbeard]

thank u for the welcome and yes i viewed them although if any of my posts offended it wasn't intentional i never try to offend people or act immature i just try and provide what i know not saying what i know is right but i put it out there to be discussed..i feel i touched on some pretty good interesting subjects..

Well your better than me. I am always trying to cause trouble. I guess I listen to my inner troll to much. :razz: It's amazing that I have yet to be banned or given a time out. ;)

[RayMan]

Well your better than me. I am always trying to cause trouble. I guess I listen to my inner troll to much. :razz: It's amazing that I have yet to be banned or given a time out. ;)

Patience young padewan. Your time will come. :mrgreen:

[iamredbeard]

Patience young padewan. Your time will come. :mrgreen:

Once upon a time I started a thread in the moderator forum about the virtues of trolling. The thread was quickly locked and I was told "Go play, you troll". :)):)):))

I just like harassing people, but it is all in good fun and in good nature. No one takes me to serious, which is probably why I haven't got in any trouble yet. :cool: