Ask A Pentecostal

[CID_0687]

I toyed with this idea a couple of weeks ago and never got around to it...I'm definitely not the authority on all things Pentecostal around here...but there are several of us.

If anyone has a question, fire away!

[gpd®]

My nephew started at an upscale Catholic High School.

They know he is a Pentecostal. The religion teacher asked him if he was a Bible "literalist" or a "contextualist."

I know what it means to me but wonder what that means coming from a Catholic teacher, maybe I should "Ask a Catholic."

[CID_0687]

My nephew started at an upscale Catholic High School.

They know he is a Pentecostal. The religion teacher asked him if he was a Bible "literalist" or a "contextualist."

I know what it means to me but wonder what that means coming from a Catholic teacher, maybe I should "Ask a Catholic."
Asking a Catholic would be a splendid idea...I think there's one or two of them around here as well. ;)

[Koushi Shinigami]

How far is it to Cuba? And can a swallow carry a cocconut from Havana to Miami?

[CID_0687]

How far is it to Cuba? And can a swallow carry a cocconut from Havana to Miami?
90 miles to Cuba from Key West, which is where the swallow would have a lay over but yes he could get the coconut to Miami. :razz:

[RayMan]

How far is it to Cuba? And can a swallow carry a cocconut from Havana to Miami?

Is it an African swallow?

[CID_0687]

Only in a thread that I start can it be hijacked before it even gets off the ground.

I rock!!

[gpd®]

Let's play Pentecostals ask each other questions.

What does your pastor teach about being slain in the Spirit?

[RayMan]

Let's play Pentecostals ask each other questions.

What does your pastor teach about being slain in the Spirit?

I'll just answer for myself. In my experience sometimes it's real and sometimes it ain't. When it's real you don't need catchers.

[CID_0687]

I'll just answer for myself. In my experience sometimes it's real and sometimes it ain't. When it's real you don't need catchers.
Very true...I saw a guy slain in the Spirit once and when he fell his head slammed and bounced back up on the concrete floor...when he finally came back around there was no knot on his head, no complaints or nothing.

[Vradic]

A question for any Pentecostal who practices "speaking in tongues":

When you "speak in tongues", what language(s) do you speak?

[mgifford]

My nephew started at an upscale Catholic High School.

They know he is a Pentecostal. The religion teacher asked him if he was a Bible "literalist" or a "contextualist."

I know what it means to me but wonder what that means coming from a Catholic teacher, maybe I should "Ask a Catholic."

Pentecostal and Catholics have grown a bit closer in some doctrine over the years. (I made this statement on what I believe not what Catholics believe, before I get hammered) Some religions disregard the "Holy Spirit" all together, the Catholics and Pentecostals are very much into Him. The Catholics speak of Him often, as do Pentecostals.

In 1975 at Notre Dame, 1500 Catholics began praying in tongues and the papers reported it too.

[mgifford]

Let's play Pentecostals ask each other questions.

What does your pastor teach about being slain in the Spirit?


"Slain in the Spirit" isn't so known today. I guess because of the ridicule over the years. I wish we had more of it and how.

[Vradic]

Pentecostal and Catholics have grown a bit closer in some doctrine over the years. Some religions disregard the "Holy Spirit" all together, the Catholics and Pentecostals are very much into Him. The Catholics speak of Him often, as do Pentecostals.

In 1975 at Notre Dame, 1500 Catholics began praying in tongues and the papers reported it too.
Did the papers report what language(s) they were speaking?

[CID_0687]

A question for any Pentecostal who practices "speaking in tongues":

When you "speak in tongues", what language(s) do you speak?
Perhaps one of the other Pentecostal brothers or sisters will have a better answer, but here's mine.

I personally have never known what the language is...I've been in services where the Spirit has lead me to speak in tongues and someone has interpreted, but the majority of my tongue talking has been in my devotional time, when I'm in prayer. It's a heavenly tongue that's only for me and God...now I've been told that the tongue I've spoke in during a service was Hebrew...not being a scholar of the language I can't tell you...and another thing on that is when you move out of the way and let the Spirit take control you're not really thinking "What language am I speaking?" You're completely focused on God and his splendor.

[mgifford]

I'll just answer for myself. In my experience sometimes it's real and sometimes it ain't. When it's real you don't need catchers.

Ray, don't you feel tho that we have to have catchers for those who get wrapped up in themselves? I could never forget the story of a woman that was standing at the alter next to us and was slain.

Her head went straight thru a "projector table", she lay there a while and never knew it as she got up. We just stood there as her head went thru it and stayed there.

[mgifford]

Did the papers report what language(s) they were speaking?

Theres no such thing!

[RayMan]

"Slain in the Spirit" isn't so known today. I guess because of the ridicule over the years. I wish we had more of it and how.

Yep. When it's the read deal it generally means that the Holy Spirit is doing a very precious work for the person involved.

[CID_0687]

Yep. When it's the read deal it generally means that the Holy Spirit is doing a very precious work for the person involved.
Yep.

[mgifford]

Perhaps one of the other Pentecostal brothers or sisters will have a better answer, but here's mine.

I personally have never known what the language is...I've been in services where the Spirit has lead me to speak in tongues and someone has interpreted, but the majority of my tongue talking has been in my devotional time, when I'm in prayer. It's a heavenly tongue that's only for me and God...now I've been told that the tongue I've spoke in during a service was Hebrew...not being a scholar of the language I can't tell you...and another thing on that is when you move out of the way and let the Spirit take control you're not really thinking "What language am I speaking?" You're completely focused on God and his splendor.

The same with me CID, but I only have prayed in other languages, not "messages for interpretation". In college I was next to a girl who began speaking "perfect Spanish" although she never has learned Spanish.

A year later she had a "brain problem and went into a long coma. I really should ask someone who still knows her family if she came out.

[Vradic]

Theres no such thing!
If you agree in the quoted post that there is no such thing as speaking in tongues in modern times, then why did you seem to support speaking in tongues by the story you referenced in your previous post that I quoted before?

[mgifford]

Yep. When it's the read deal it generally means that the Holy Spirit is doing a very precious work for the person involved.

Yes indeed! God does move in His own way.

[mgifford]

If you agree in the quoted post that there is no such thing as speaking in tongues in modern times, then why did you seem to support speaking in tongues by the story you referenced in your previous post that I quoted before?

Sorry, there's no such thing as the press reporting the language types. The press doesn't and isn't concerned about that at all, just the fact that Notre Dame had that unusual event. BTW, most of the reporting was done by MSR journalists.

[Vradic]

The same with me CID, but I only have prayed in other languages, not "messages for interpretation". In college I was next to a girl who began speaking "perfect Spanish" although she never has learned Spanish.

A year later she had a "brain problem and went into a long coma. I really should ask someone who still knows her family if she came out.This begs two questions:
1) Who determined she was speaking "perfect Spanish"?
2) How do you know she never learned Spanish?

[RayMan]

Ray, don't you feel tho that we have to have catchers for those who get wrapped up in themselves? I could never forget the story of a woman that was standing at the alter next to us and was slain.

Her head went straight thru a "projector table", she lay there a while and never knew it as she got up. We just stood there as her head went thru it and stayed there.

Pretty much got to have catchers. If only to avoid lawsuits. :mrgreen:

[mgifford]

This begs two questions:
1) Who determined she was speaking "perfect Spanish"?
2) How do you know she never learned Spanish?

I'll do as I usually do when you post to me and ignore you again. I try usually, but there are times that I think you may ask sensible questions. Bye! Bye! rolleyes:

[mgifford]

Pretty much got to have catchers. If only to avoid lawsuits. :mrgreen:

Yes sit buddy!

[JenT]

I'll just answer for myself. In my experience sometimes it's real and sometimes it ain't. When it's real you don't need catchers.

what does this mean, you float?

[CID_0687]

what does this mean, you float?
I think what he's saying is that when someone is truly slain in the Spirit and they fall, and no one's there to catch them that the Spirit isn't going to allow any harm or injury to come to them.

Do they float? :lol: We're not playing Copperfield tricks.

[gpd®]

This begs two questions:
1) Who determined she was speaking "perfect Spanish"?
2) How do you know she never learned Spanish?

Our church had a missionary visit. He told us a true story of a trip he was on.

Once in a remote part of the world, this missionary prayed for the daughter of a woman.

The woman started screaming in hysteria. The American missionary was praying in a very old tribal language a lullaby that this woman had sung to her nightly by her mother many decades earlier.

We have a very reputable pastor who doesn't bring flaky people into speak so I truly believe it was God.

[Reeder]

A 'Pente'-what? :mrgreen:

[PaleoPaul]

Can you be a Pentecostal and believe in stuff like predestination?

(think Calvinists...they're everywhere)

[Reeder]

Can you be a Pentecostal and believe in stuff like predestination?

(think Calvinists...they're everywhere)

You can be anything you want and believe anything you want, right? Perhaps it would be more appropriate to ask if thats what Pentecostals believe.

[JenT]

A question for any Pentecostal who practices "speaking in tongues":

When you "speak in tongues", what language(s) do you speak?

vradic, what is this fascination with this question? Do you even know if on the day of Pentecost, if those speaking in other tongues knew what language it was? I would guess that they didn't. Because when I'm speaking in tongues, I'm not doing the speaking or singing, I mean I'm not shaping the words. I can tell when I"m forming the words and when I'm not. It's like a river that flows.

I have looked up a few words I had repeated and found the meanings phonetically which was interesting. And one of the words actually pointed at a huge issue that was yet to happen in my life.

Sometimes I have thought it sounded Hawaiian, which is NOT wishful thinking, I'm not near as impressed with Hawaii as I am with the mountains.

Other times it sounded chinese and another time it sounded German

But where does it say one has to know what language one is speaking? There are Scriptures that show it is a language to be interpreted but also a language of prayer between us and the Lord. Why do you ignore those scriptures? God knows exactly what I'm saying. He also really helps me with forgiveness when I sing over someone.

Why are you so resistant to it?

[PaleoPaul]

You can be anything you want and believe anything you want, right? Perhaps it would be more appropriate to ask if thats what Pentecostals believe.
Well, generally speaking, Pentecostals are more on the side of Arminianism or mild Pelagianism.

[JenT]

I think what he's saying is that when someone is truly slain in the Spirit and they fall, and no one's there to catch them that the Spirit isn't going to allow any harm or injury to come to them.

Do they float? :lol: We're not playing Copperfield tricks.

Sorry, I just couldn't imagine how that worked

[Reeder]

Well, generally speaking, Pentecostals are more on the side of Arminianism or mild Pelagianism.

:confused:

[gpd®]

Can you be a Pentecostal and believe in stuff like predestination?

(think Calvinists...they're everywhere)

That is much like the debate in another thread.

A poster believes that if God is omnipotent, God can't be perfectly Good. I say it is not for me to determine that. All I want to know is it critical to my salvation?

Maybe we are predestined, But God may not choose to "look into our future," giving all the appearances that make us feel like we are guiding our own destiny.

God makes a lot of choices. God changes His mind. His logic isn't our logic. He chose Saul and then pulled him for David.

A Pentecostal would ask you, "Is it critical to your salvation? If so, God bless your quest. If not, chew the meat and spit out the fat and move on.

[RayMan]

what does this mean, you float?

If it's the power of God in manifestation they won't be getting hurt when they hit the ground.

[PaleoPaul]

:confused:
Hehe.

Arminianism, generally, believers of this theology believe man has evil in their nature, but they also believe that there's some good in them too. Therefore, God AND man cooperate in the saving process.

Pelagianism, generally, believers of this believe man is basically good but is corrupted by his surroundings, therefore he/she does bad things.

There, hope I didn't come off as an old crotchety theology professor... :p

[Reeder]

Hehe.

Arminianism, generally, believers of this theology believe man has evil in their nature, but they also believe that there's some good in them too. Therefore, God AND man cooperate in the saving process.

Pelagianism, generally, believers of this believe man is basically good but is corrupted by his surroundings, therefore he/she does bad things.

There, hope I didn't come off as an old crotchety theology professor... :p

:yawn:

You're jumping around and making me dizzy. Perhaps sticking to a single topic/question?........

[gpd®]

Hehe.

Arminianism, generally, believers of this theology believe man has evil in their nature, but they also believe that there's some good in them too. Therefore, God AND man cooperate in the saving process.

Pelagianism, generally, believers of this believe man is basically good but is corrupted by his surroundings, therefore he/she does bad things.

There, hope I didn't come off as an old crotchety theology professor... :p

I can make it easier by paraphrasing Alan Colmes.

Conservatism: Man is inherently bad and needs a savior.

Liberalism: Man is inherently good and sees no need for a savior.

[RayMan]

A 'Pente'-what? :mrgreen:

Keep an eye on this guy CID. All the LDS folk say he's a troublemaker.

[CID_0687]

Can you be a Pentecostal and believe in stuff like predestination?

(think Calvinists...they're everywhere)
Predestination in the sense of Calvinism, no...at least not in any of the denominations I've been in or studied on.

It's been my experience that Pentecostals share the Free Will doctrine.

But as Reeder said, we're all free to believe how we choose. :D

[Reeder]

Keep an eye on this guy CID. All the LDS folk say he's a troublemaker.

There's only trouble when it "Snow"s. :shifty:

[PaleoPaul]

I can make it easier by paraphrasing Alan Colmes.

Conservatism: Man is inherently bad and needs a savior.

Liberalism: Man is inherently good and sees no need for a savior.
Whatever floats your boat and doesn't seek mine I guess...

Back to a simpler topic.

Does the Pentecostal church you (that means any Pentecostal participating in this thread) go to subscribe to the belief of "faith" healing?

[Vradic]

Our church had a missionary visit. He told us a true story of a trip he was on.

Once in a remote part of the world, this missionary prayed for the daughter of a woman.

The woman started screaming in hysteria. The American missionary was praying in a very old tribal language a lullaby that this woman had sung to her nightly by her mother many decades earlier.

We have a very reputable pastor who doesn't bring flaky people into speak so I truly believe it was God.
Without focusing on whether or not the story you were told was true; at least the story is similar to what is described in the Bible, in that the missionary was said to have been speaking a known language.
Act 2:1 When the day of Pentecost had come, they were all together in one place.
Act 2:2 And suddenly there came from heaven a noise like a violent rushing wind, and it filled the whole house where they were sitting.
Act 2:3 And there appeared to them tongues as of fire distributing themselves, and they rested on each one of them.
Act 2:4 And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit was giving them utterance.
Act 2:5 Now there were Jews living in Jerusalem, devout men from every nation under heaven.
Act 2:6 And when this sound occurred, the crowd came together, and were bewildered because each one of them was hearing them speak in his own language.
Act 2:7 They were amazed and astonished, saying, "Why, are not all these who are speaking Galileans?
Act 2:8 "And how is it that we each hear {them} in our own language to which we were born?
Act 2:9 "Parthians and Medes and Elamites, and residents of Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia,
Act 2:10 Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the districts of Libya around Cyrene, and visitors from Rome, both Jews and proselytes,
Act 2:11 Cretans and Arabs--we hear them in our {own} tongues speaking of the mighty deeds of God."
I'm not saying I find this one story enough evidence to change my view according to my study in the Bible. But instances of the type purported here (with someone speaking a known but unlearned language) are at least more credible than the unintelligible ecstatic utterances that many point to as "speaking in tongues"; since the stories at least seem to fit the Biblical pattern.

[RayMan]

Well, generally speaking, Pentecostals are more on the side of Arminianism or mild Pelagianism.

Pentecostals make lousy Calvinists. We expect God to answer prayer according to the promises in His word. We believe in the power of faith in God and His word and we definitely believe whosoeve will believe on Jesus Christ shall be saved.

[gpd®]

Whatever floats your boat and doesn't seek mine I guess...

Back to a simpler topic.

Does the Pentecostal church you (that means any Pentecostal participating in this thread) go to subscribe to the belief of "faith" healing?

Yes. We believe that God has given the human body many wonderful healing attributes to help it heal itself through prayer and meditation.

We also belive in supernatural intervention or miracle healing if you wish. We do not practice it any of the major or larger services, but there are many smaller 10-20 person groups on could join to do more intense study and prayer.

Many testimonies that lymph nodes and other cancerous growths mysteriously disappearing.

It happened to my own sister. The doctors didn't know what she had but she had many lymph nodes in her intestines. After a year of prayer from many people they mysteriously went away. Needless so say, the doctors were also amazed.

[RayMan]

There's only trouble when it "Snow"s. :shifty:

That just might be RF post of the day material. :mrgreen:

[CID_0687]

Keep an eye on this guy CID. All the LDS folk say he's a troublemaker.
An LDS troublemaker? Surely not. ;)

[PaleoPaul]

Pentecostals make lousy Calvinists.
I know plenty of people in my Calvinist-subscribing church who make lousy Reformed people, so don't be so negative. :)

We expect God to answer prayer according to the promises in His Word.
As do we Reformed.

We believe in the power of faith in God and His word
So do we. Without faith in God and belief in what His Word says, we can't be saved without hearing it (Romans 1:17).

and we definitely believe whosoeve will believe on Jesus Christ shall be saved.
*nods in affirmation*

[PaleoPaul]

Yes. We believe that God has given the human body many wonderful healing attributes to help it heal itself through prayer and meditation.

We also belive in supernatural intervention or miracle healing if you wish. We do not practice it any of the major or larger services, but there are many smaller 10-20 person groups on could join to do more intense study and prayer.

Many testimonies that lymph nodes and other cancerous growths mysteriously disappearing.

It happened to my own sister. The doctors didn't know what she had but she had many of lymph nodes in her intestines. After a year of prayer from many people they mysteriously went away. Needless so say, the doctors were also amazed.
Thanks for answering the question, and praise GOD regarding your sister! :clap: :pray:

[Lie Sniper]

There's only trouble when it "Snow"s. :shifty:

:))

[mgifford]

Our church had a missionary visit. He told us a true story of a trip he was on.

Once in a remote part of the world, this missionary prayed for the daughter of a woman.

The woman started screaming in hysteria. The American missionary was praying in a very old tribal language a lullaby that this woman had sung to her nightly by her mother many decades earlier.

We have a very reputable pastor who doesn't bring flaky people into speak so I truly believe it was God.

Happens all the time, brother. The young Missionary couple who God called to a South American country. The Minister spoke to us one Sunday a few years later.

He said that they were ready for the field but had no idea, as they got out of college, that God would send them to a Spanish town. He further said that "as he stood the first Sunday at the mission to speak, he spoke in Spanish, played the guitar and sang in Spanish.

Within a short time, he and his wife spoke Spanish, and could also read the language. That also came in handy when they taught the littlest Spanish kids" to read. They were really a blessing that Sunday speaking and ministering to us in Spanish, which BTW, is "Tongues" in operation.

[mgifford]

pentecostals make lousy calvinists. We expect god to answer prayer according to the promises in his word. We believe in the power of faith in god and his word and we definitely believe whosoeve will believe on jesus christ shall be saved.

+1

[Meriweather]

I toyed with this idea a couple of weeks ago and never got around to it...I'm definitely not the authority on all things Pentecostal around here...but there are several of us.

If anyone has a question, fire away!

This thread reminds me of a question Jen and I were touching on in another thread. It seems to me that Pentecostals when touched by the Spirit can speak out and become vigorous and extroverted, speaking and singing in tongues.

I was contrasting that to Christian/Catholic mysticism where one feels the Spirit most closely during times of solitude and silence. I was wondering if anyone knew how closely mysticism ties to the experience of speaking in Tongues: Different sides of the same coin, or two very different, singular experiences. Any Pentecostal mystics out there who have known both experiences?

[mgifford]

This thread reminds me of a question Jen and I were touching on in another thread. It seems to me that Pentecostals when touched by the Spirit can speak out and become vigorous and extroverted, speaking and singing in tongues.

I was contrasting that to Christian/Catholic mysticism where one feels the Spirit most closely during times of solitude and silence. I was wondering if anyone knew how closely mysticism ties to the experience of speaking in Tongues: Different sides of the same coin, or two very different, singular experiences. Any Pentecostal mystics out there who have known both experiences?

I don't think so Mari. I've never been around any mysticism folks at all tho.

[Snow]

If anyone has a question, fire away!

Why so many syllables in the name?

[Fire Watch]

Why so many syllables in the name?
"The Original Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints" seemed a bit much.

[Meriweather]

Why so many syllables in the name?

(So asks a member of The Church of Jesus Christ and the Latter Day Saints.)

[Snow]

Hey - HEY. I'll do the jokes around here!

[vir doctus]

It happened to my own sister. The doctors didn't know what she had but she had many lymph nodes in her intestines. After a year of prayer from many people they mysteriously went away. Needless so say, the doctors were also amazed.

Lymph nodes grow and shrink, it is the beautiful creation of a Great Creator.

[RayMan]

Why so many syllables in the name?

This from someone who belongs to a church called "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints...?" Now THAT'S a mouthful. :mrgreen: ;)

Pentecost

G4005
πεντηκοστή
pentēkostē
Thayer Definition:
Pentecost = “the fiftieth day”
1) the second of the three great Jewish feasts, celebrated at Jerusalem yearly, the seventh week after the Passover, in grateful recognition of the completed harvest

-al [-ial, -eal]

(Latin: a suffix; pertaining to, like, of the kind of, relating to, characterized by, belonging to; action of, process of)


We just add the suffix "al" to Pentecost to denote that we feel ourselves to be aligned with the outpouring of the Spirit which began that day and, we believe, continues on today and will until the day the Lord Jesus Christ returns to this earth.

[Snow]

It's a totally different thing.

The name of my church has lots of nice, small words. Plain, simple, unpretentious. But Pentecostal? It's like Look at me! Look at me! I have FOUR syllables - all together. I'm special.... well maybe you are but do you have to rub it in our faces?

[RayMan]

It's a totally different thing.

The name of my church has lots of nice, small words. Plain, simple, unpretentious. But Pentecostal? It's like Look at me! Look at me! I have FOUR syllables - all together. I'm special.... well maybe you are but do you have to rub it in our faces?

Then there's those high-faluting Episcopalians and Presbyterians...what's up with that anyway?

Oh yeah, more N.T. Greek. How pretentious. :cool:

[vir doctus]

Then there's those high-faluting Episcopalians and Presbyterians...what's up with that anyway?

Oh yeah, more N.T. Greek. How pretentious. :cool:

Don't forget Orthodox Presbyterian...

[RayMan]

Don't forget Orthodox Presbyterian...

Believe me, I've tried.





(No Orthodox Presbyterians were harmed in the writing of this post.)

[vir doctus]

:))

[RayMan]

Now that I think of it Episcopalian sounds better than Overseerian and Presbyterian is easier on the ears than Elderarian.

[vir doctus]

Now that I think of it Episcopalian sounds better than Overseerian and Presbyterian is easier on the ears than than Elderarian.

Elderarian is better, more Tolkien...

[RayMan]

Elderarian is better, more Tolkien...

Actually, after I wrote it I thought it did sound kind of cool.

Geezerarian would have been better for the purpose of my post but it is somewhat of a stretch of the original Greek and I didn't want to tick off CtG.

[mgifford]

It's a totally different thing.

The name of my church has lots of nice, small words. Plain, simple, unpretentious. But Pentecostal? It's like Look at me! Look at me! I have FOUR syllables - all together. I'm special.... well maybe you are but do you have to rub it in our faces?

Snow, tho some groups do profess to be Pentecostal, not may are with that name.

Four Square
Church of God
Assemblies of God
Holiness
Fire Baptized

These are a few names of organizations that "Full Gospel" but aren't per se Pentecostal. Pentecostalism is is a type of belief generally, instead of a denomination.

When I first started to an AG church, I later saw a Pentecostal "Ev- angelical magazine" one Sunday morning. I asked someone were we Pentecostal, they said "Yes".

I'm no longer Pentecostal, but am certainly part of the group of the "Pentecostal Family". I love them all!

[Snow]

I'm no longer Pentecostal, but am certainly part of the group of the "Pentecostal Family". I love them all!

... in all their syllabic glory.

[RayMan]

... in all their syllabic glory.

They do have a certain glossolaliac flow

[Snow]

Then there's those high-faluting Episcopalians and Presbyterians...what's up with that anyway?

Oh yeah, more N.T. Greek. How pretentious. :cool:

For Easter Sunrise Service I go to an all black church in Los Angeles with the kiddies... The First African Episcopal Methodist Church... as if one denomination can't contain them. :(

[mgifford]

For Easter Sunrise Service I go to an all black church in Los Angeles with the kiddies... The First African Episcopal Methodist Church... as if one denomination can't contain them. :(


It was so enlightening to speak to and with those folks. One lady was a friend of MLK's and loved to speak of their times. this was 1967.

Later I started listening to a station that had mostly black preachers on it, but I quit listening. For a while, I really enjoyed hearing them tho.

[RayMan]

For Easter Sunrise Service I go to an all black church in Los Angeles with the kiddies... The First African Episcopal Methodist Church... as if one denomination can't contain them. :(

I have always loved that name. The Episcopal part stresses the form of Church Government they follow - being led by Bishops (gr. episkopos), rather than denoting their being a part of the Episcopal or Anglican Church.

About Us - Our Name

The word African means that the church was organized by people of African descent and heritage. It does not mean that the church was founded in Africa, or that it was for persons of African descent only.

The church's roots are of the family of Methodist churches. Methodism provides an orderly system of rules and regulations and places emphasis on a plain and simple gospel.

Episcopal refers to the form of government under which the church operates. The chief executive and administrative officers of the African Methodist Episcopal denomination are the Bishops of the church.
http://www.ame-church.com/about-us/

[Snow]

They do have a certain glossolaliac flow

:)

[CID_0687]

It's a totally different thing.

The name of my church has lots of nice, small words. Plain, simple, unpretentious. But Pentecostal? It's like Look at me! Look at me! I have FOUR syllables - all together. I'm special.... well maybe you are but do you have to rub it in our faces?
You think that's bad how bout those who are nondenominational....;)

But even then The Church of Jesus Christ and Latter Day Saints still takes about 3 seconds longer to say.

just sayin'©

[pmm521]

I'll just answer for myself. In my experience sometimes it's real and sometimes it ain't. When it's real you don't need catchers.

I'd agree with that.

I believe most churches have 'catchers' because some people want to fake everything, and I actually saw a story recently where a guy claimed he was slain in the spirit yet he wasn't caught by anyone and hit his head, he wants thousands from the church.

[Lie Sniper]

I have always loved that name. The Episcopal part stresses the form of Church Government they follow - being led by Bishops (gr. episkopos), rather than denoting their being a part of the Episcopal or Anglican Church.

About Us - Our Name

The word African means that the church was organized by people of African descent and heritage. It does not mean that the church was founded in Africa, or that it was for persons of African descent only.

The church's roots are of the family of Methodist churches. Methodism provides an orderly system of rules and regulations and places emphasis on a plain and simple gospel.

Episcopal refers to the form of government under which the church operates. The chief executive and administrative officers of the African Methodist Episcopal denomination are the Bishops of the church.
http://www.ame-church.com/about-us/

Again Ray, you are very useful too have around!;)

Who needs Google?:clap:

[gpd®]

Lymph nodes grow and shrink, it is the beautiful creation of a Great Creator.

We took her to Loma Linda University Hospital. The best hospital in Southern California for her situation.

All the doctors there were stumped. She had a one-of-a-kind disease no one had ever seen before. They couldn't diagnose her.

Her main specialist asked if she believed in prayer and obviously my sister is strong in her faith and told him yes.

He told her to start praying. The rest is medical history.

[gpd®]

Happens all the time, brother. The young Missionary couple who God called to a South American country. The Minister spoke to us one Sunday a few years later.

He said that they were ready for the field but had no idea, as they got out of college, that God would send them to a Spanish town. He further said that "as he stood the first Sunday at the mission to speak, he spoke in Spanish, played the guitar and sang in Spanish.

Within a short time, he and his wife spoke Spanish, and could also read the language. That also came in handy when they taught the littlest Spanish kids" to read. They were really a blessing that Sunday speaking and ministering to us in Spanish, which BTW, is "Tongues" in operation.

Hallelujah!

[gpd®]

This thread reminds me of a question Jen and I were touching on in another thread. It seems to me that Pentecostals when touched by the Spirit can speak out and become vigorous and extroverted, speaking and singing in tongues.

I was contrasting that to Christian/Catholic mysticism where one feels the Spirit most closely during times of solitude and silence. I was wondering if anyone knew how closely mysticism ties to the experience of speaking in Tongues: Different sides of the same coin, or two very different, singular experiences. Any Pentecostal mystics out there who have known both experiences?

We are more of the "where 2 or more are gathered, I am there" crowd. Helps curb the mysticism aspect.

Remember, Jesus always sent His apostles in groups of 2.

[mgifford]

Hallelujah!

Actually when telling a story like that it's difficult to get an "amen" response from believers, at least very often. I remember that they didn't tell that story until they had been praying and singing in Spanish for a while. What a blessing to what God does often and unsparingly to those of us who dare to believe. AMEN

[RayMan]

Back in 1982 I was in a prayer meeting which included a Baptistl bible college student from Cameroon named Valentine Mbong. He had never been in a Pentecostal service before.

I was paired up with him in prayer. At one point, after running out of things to pray in English I felt led to begin praying in tongues. We were holding hands as we prayed and I felt a tremor go through his hands.

I asked him after prayer what had happened for him and he told me that when I stopped praying in English I began praising Jesus in Arabic, a language he knew and I didn't. God used that as a sign to him of the reality of the Baptism of the Spirit.

Before you ask - no, I have no idea as to the specifics of what I said in tongues. He simply said I was praising Jesus Christ in Arabic.

[CID_0687]

Back in 1982 I was in a prayer meeting which included a Baptistl bible college student from Cameroon named Valentine Mbong. He had never been in a Pentecostal service before.

I was paired up with him in prayer. At one point, after running out of things to pray in English I felt led to begin praying in tongues. We were holding hands as we prayed and I felt a tremor go through his hands.

I asked him after prayer what had happened for him and he told me that when I stopped praying in English I began praising Jesus in Arabic, a language he knew and I didn't. God used that as a sign to him of the reality of the Baptism of the Spirit.

Before you ask - no, I have no idea as to the specifics of what I said in tongues. He simply said I was praising Jesus Christ in Arabic.
The power of God is an amazing thing...the way He'll use us in ways that we didn't think were possible simply so His glory can be manifested is truly awesome.

[gpd®]

When it comes to offering time. Many people in my church cheer.

Sometimes they even give a standing ovation. I know the Word says God loves a cheerful giver.

Have any of my other Pentecostal brothers or sisters experienced this at their meetings?

[pmm521]

When it comes to offering time. Many people in my church cheer.

Sometimes they even give a standing ovation. I know the Word says God loves a cheerful giver.

Have any of my other Pentecostal brothers or sisters experienced this at their meetings?


I have seen people get happy over giving. I get pretty excited myself when its offering time.

[Semi-Sweet]

I toyed with this idea a couple of weeks ago and never got around to it...I'm definitely not the authority on all things Pentecostal around here...but there are several of us.

If anyone has a question, fire away!

If you believe that one can be converted (and be a Christian) and not yet speak in tongues, does this put a person in the awkward position of believing that one can be a Christian without having the Holy Spirit, while Paul says in Romans 8:9 that if one does not have the Spirit of Christ he cannot be a Christian?

[pmm521]

If you believe that one can be converted (and be a Christian) and not yet speak in tongues, does this put a person in the awkward position of believing that one can be a Christian without having the Holy Spirit, while Paul says in Romans 8:9 that if one does not have the Spirit of Christ he cannot be a Christian?

Speaking in tongues is the sign that acompanies the baptism in the Holy Spirit.

A baptism being seperate than what a person receives of the Holy Spirit when they are born again.

In Acts those men and women in the upper room were already born again, and Jesus had already opened their understanding and breathed on them and said receive the Holy Ghost, so they already had a measure of it.

But then they recieved a total immersion into the Holy Ghost and began to speak with other tongues, then of course, others showed up to make fun of them. Thats still going on today.

[buflineks]

My question would be, aren't there two types of Pentecostals? Trinitarian and Oneness?

And if so, which one are you?

[CID_0687]

If you believe that one can be converted (and be a Christian) and not yet speak in tongues, does this put a person in the awkward position of believing that one can be a Christian without having the Holy Spirit, while Paul says in Romans 8:9 that if one does not have the Spirit of Christ he cannot be a Christian?
Speaking in tongues, is just one of the 9 Gifts of the Spirit. There are many Pentecostals who believe that if you do not speak in tongues, then you haven't been Baptized in the Spirit...which is different from Salvation...

I, personally believe that not everyone who is Baptized in the Spirit speaks in tongues...As Paul teaches in his writings some prophecy, some have knowledge, wisdom, healing, miracles...etc..

We are equipped with what God sees fit to equip us with, if for me it's tongues it may be prophecy for you, and healing for another.

Someone can be saved and not be Baptized in the Spirit...It happens farther along in the Sanctification process...now this isn't always the case, I've witnessed people receiving salvation and the gift of tongues simultaneously...but most it comes along later on, the more we submit to God the more He will give to us.

I had been saved for almost two years before I received the Baptism of the Holy Spirit.

[pmm521]

Oh yes, I agree. I believe you can be saved and not be baptized in the Holy Ghost and speak with other tongues.

You can live a hundred years and go on to Heaven. I do however believe one will be ashamed when they get there and that the Holy Ghost is the only way to fully acomplish everything God wants you to do in this life.

[CID_0687]

My question would be, aren't there two types of Pentecostals? Trinitarian and Oneness?

And if so, which one are you?
There are two types...I'm a Trinitarian.

The most notable denomination of the Oneness doctrine is the United Pentecostal Church of which our friend Fire Watch is a member.

The majority of the modern Pentecostal churches, including, the UPC have their roots in the Azusa Street Revival of the early 20th Century. How the doctrine of the Trinity was dropped by the UPC I'm not sure, perhaps Rick could enlighten us on that.

[vir doctus]

Oh yes, I agree. I believe you can be saved and not be baptized in the Holy Ghost and speak with other tongues.

You can live a hundred years and go on to Heaven. I do however believe one will be ashamed when they get there and that the Holy Ghost is the only way to fully acomplish everything God wants you to do in this life.

Ashamed in heaven? :eh:

[CID_0687]

Oh yes, I agree. I believe you can be saved and not be baptized in the Holy Ghost and speak with other tongues.

You can live a hundred years and go on to Heaven. I do however believe one will be ashamed when they get there and that the Holy Ghost is the only way to fully acomplish everything God wants you to do in this life.
You must have misunderstood my post.

I don't believe that anyone can have any of the 9 gifts until they are Baptized in the Holy Spirit.

But I have witnessed people receiving salvation and Holy Spirit Baptism at the same time. It's rare, but it does happen.

The point I was trying to stress is that you can be Baptized in the Spirit and NOT speak in tongues...Because, maybe that's not a gift God wanted you to have, or it's not one that you have desired.

[gpd®]

If you believe that one can be converted (and be a Christian) and not yet speak in tongues, does this put a person in the awkward position of believing that one can be a Christian without having the Holy Spirit, while Paul says in Romans 8:9 that if one does not have the Spirit of Christ he cannot be a Christian?

Pentecostal Grace Statement:

"Is it critical to my salvation?"

[gpd®]

Ashamed in heaven? :eh:

Ashamed was a marginal choice of words. More like confronted.

[Semi-Sweet]

Speaking in tongues, is just one of the 9 Gifts of the Spirit. There are many Pentecostals who believe that if you do not speak in tongues, then you haven't been Baptized in the Spirit...which is different from Salvation...

I, personally believe that not everyone who is Baptized in the Spirit speaks in tongues...As Paul teaches in his writings some prophecy, some have knowledge, wisdom, healing, miracles...etc..

We are equipped with what God sees fit to equip us with, if for me it's tongues it may be prophecy for you, and healing for another.

Someone can be saved and not be Baptized in the Spirit...It happens farther along in the Sanctification process...now this isn't always the case, I've witnessed people receiving salvation and the gift of tongues simultaneously...but most it comes along later on, the more we submit to God the more He will give to us.

I had been saved for almost two years before I received the Baptism of the Holy Spirit.

Thanks Drew. My brother was pentecostal (deceased) and that was one of the questions that I didn't get to ask him. He was/is a Oneness Pentecostal. BTW, we both had a mutual respect for our different faiths, but I believe I enjoyed his Pentecostal services more than he enjoyed my Church of Christ services. . .LOL

[CID_0687]

Thanks Drew. My brother was pentecostal (deceased) and that was one of the questions that I didn't get to ask him. He was/is a Oneness Pentecostal. BTW, we both had a mutual respect for our different faiths, but I believe I enjoyed his Pentecostal services more than he enjoyed my Church of Christ services. . .LOL
Sorry for your loss :hug:

Out of curiosity what does the CoC teach on the gifts of the Spirit?

[Semi-Sweet]

Sorry for your loss :hug:

Out of curiosity what does the CoC teach on the gifts of the Spirit?

Thanks. . :hug: They believe that the miraculous gifts have ceased.

[pmm521]

Ashamed in heaven? :eh:

Ashamed at judgement. Sorry I didn't make that clear.

[pmm521]

You must have misunderstood my post.

I don't believe that anyone can have any of the 9 gifts until they are Baptized in the Holy Spirit.

But I have witnessed people receiving salvation and Holy Spirit Baptism at the same time. It's rare, but it does happen.

The point I was trying to stress is that you can be Baptized in the Spirit and NOT speak in tongues...Because, maybe that's not a gift God wanted you to have, or it's not one that you have desired.


Everytime you see people being baptized in the Holy Ghost in the book of Acts you seem them speaking with other tongues. I believe they go hand in hand.

The gift of the spirit of Tongues is different than being able to speak in tongues in your personal prayer time.

[CID_0687]

Thanks. . :hug: They believe that the miraculous gifts have ceased.
Ahh...I see. Thanks.

[CID_0687]

Everytime you see people being baptized in the Holy Ghost in the book of Acts you seem them speaking with other tongues. I believe they go hand in hand.

The gift of the spirit of Tongues is different than being able to speak in tongues in your personal prayer time.
I agree with you on the different kinds of tongues...but I've been in services where people have literally been forced to speak in tongues...I've also been in services where people have been forced to prophecy...I'm sorry but we are not all equipped with the same gifts...and we shouldn't look down on someone, or think them any less of a Christian because they don't share the same gift that you or I do.

I know you haven't said anything along these lines, this is just a pet peeve of mine.

And I do agree that all that desire to speak in the heavenly prayer language can and will, but if they don't, again they are no less of a Believer.

[RayMan]

You must have misunderstood my post.

I don't believe that anyone can have any of the 9 gifts until they are Baptized in the Holy Spirit.

But I have witnessed people receiving salvation and Holy Spirit Baptism at the same time. It's rare, but it does happen.

The point I was trying to stress is that you can be Baptized in the Spirit and NOT speak in tongues...Because, maybe that's not a gift God wanted you to have, or it's not one that you have desired.

Just a lack of punctuation CID. PMM was agreeing with you.

[Semi-Sweet]

Ahh...I see. Thanks.

The first assemblies spoke with tongues. (they were not called CoC at that time). This is a quote from some of the history of the CoC, Stone/Campbell movement. . .

But Brush Run remained in the Redstone Baptist Association all its life and was always considered a Baptist church, even if somewhat different, and Alexander Campbell for all those years was considered a Baptist minister. And it is noteworthy that both the Campbells went out of their way to work with and be a part of some denominational structure.

So, was the first Church of Christ also a Baptist church?

I am a Campbellite. . . .LOL. Most CoC's today do not teach or believe what Barton Stone and the Campbells believed and taught, I do.

[gpd®]

Talking about being forced to speak in tongues....

Does anyone go to a Pentecostal church that teaches that the Greek for the wine that Jesus drank may and does also refer to non-alcoholic grape juice? Inferring that Jesus may not have drank alcoholic wine.

[pmm521]

I agree with you on the different kinds of tongues...but I've been in services where people have literally been forced to speak in tongues...I've also been in services where people have been forced to prophecy...I'm sorry but we are not all equipped with the same gifts...and we shouldn't look down on someone, or think them any less of a Christian because they don't share the same gift that you or I do.

I know you haven't said anything along these lines, this is just a pet peeve of mine.

And I do agree that all that desire to speak in the heavenly prayer language can and will, but if they don't, again they are no less of a Believer.

I don't believe anyone should ever be forced into doing anything such as speaking in tongues or prophecy.

[mgifford]

Talking about being forced to speak in tongues....

Does anyone go to a Pentecostal church that teaches that the Greek for the wine that Jesus drank may and does also refer to non-alcoholic grape juice? Inferring that Jesus may not have drank alcoholic wine.


A professor in college said "always follow context"! He said "where fermented wine was used, they got drunk, where it wasn't they didn't". LOL!

[CID_0687]

Just a lack of punctuation CID. PMM was agreeing with you.
:doh: Well you know I can be grammatically challenged, Ray.

[CID_0687]

The first assemblies spoke with tongues. (they were not called CoC at that time). This is a quote from some of the history of the CoC, Stone/Campbell movement. . .



I am a Campbellite. . . .LOL. Most CoC's today do not teach or believe what Barton Stone and the Campbells believed and taught, I do.
Cool, thanks for the insight...I'm going to have to research that some more now...my curiosity is sparked. :D

[RayMan]

:doh: Well you know I can be grammatically challenged, Ray.

I will accept that challenge!

[CID_0687]

Talking about being forced to speak in tongues....

Does anyone go to a Pentecostal church that teaches that the Greek for the wine that Jesus drank may and does also refer to non-alcoholic grape juice? Inferring that Jesus may not have drank alcoholic wine.
No, but I've only been in one Pentecostal church that used real wine for communion...most just use Welch's.

But I've also only been in one Pentecostal church that was staunchly against alcoholic beverages...most it wasn't really an issue.

The last Pastor I was under brought alcohol up one day and said, "I choose to be a teetotaler, but if one of you chooses to have a drink on occasion, who am I to judge you, we must work out our own salvation."

[CID_0687]

I don't believe anyone should ever be forced into doing anything such as speaking in tongues or prophecy.
Couldn't agree with you more, and I apologize for the misunderstanding earlier.

[CID_0687]

I will accept that challenge!
Bring it!! How'm I doing so far?

[RayMan]

Bring it!! How'm I doing so far?


Needs more cowbell.

[vir doctus]

Time for me to unsubscribe.

[CID_0687]

Needs more cowbell.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q4royOLtvmQ&feature=related

[CID_0687]

Time for me to unsubscribe.
But the first six weeks is free.

[RayMan]

Time for me to unsubscribe.

That will be the last gratuitous SNL reference. Seriously.

[CID_0687]

That will be the last gratuitous SNL reference. Seriously.
Shhha right, and monkeys migh.....yeah maybe you're right it should be the last one.

[RayMan]

Shhha right, and monkeys migh.....yeah maybe you're right it should be the last one.

See, this is why we can't get the high class types in our threads...;)

[CID_0687]

See, this is why we can't get the high class types in our threads...;)
There was a time when we couldn't get them in our churches too...my how things change.

[Vradic]

vradic, what is this fascination with this question? Do you even know if on the day of Pentecost, if those speaking in other tongues knew what language it was? I would guess that they didn't. Because when I'm speaking in tongues, I'm not doing the speaking or singing, I mean I'm not shaping the words. I can tell when I"m forming the words and when I'm not. It's like a river that flows.

I have looked up a few words I had repeated and found the meanings phonetically which was interesting. And one of the words actually pointed at a huge issue that was yet to happen in my life.

Sometimes I have thought it sounded Hawaiian, which is NOT wishful thinking, I'm not near as impressed with Hawaii as I am with the mountains.

Other times it sounded chinese and another time it sounded German

But where does it say one has to know what language one is speaking? There are Scriptures that show it is a language to be interpreted but also a language of prayer between us and the Lord. Why do you ignore those scriptures? God knows exactly what I'm saying. He also really helps me with forgiveness when I sing over someone.

Why are you so resistant to it?
My "fascination with this question" of what language one is speaking is to confirm whether it is a language in the sense that Act 2 describes it. My answer from the scripture to your question; "Do you even know if on the day of Pentecost, if those speaking in other tongues knew what language it was"; is that it was not only one language, but the Apostles were speaking multiple languages. Possibly one disciple one language, and one another language or perhaps each Apostle alternated which language they spoke, so that they could be understood in the native tongues of those who were gathered there from different regions.
Act 2:9 Parthians, and Medes, and Elamites, and the dwellers in Mesopotamia, and in Judaea, and Cappadocia, in Pontus, and Asia,
Act 2:10 Phrygia, and Pamphylia, in Egypt, and in the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and strangers of Rome, Jews and proselytes,
Act 2:11 Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God.
The Apostles were CLEARLY speaking in KNOWN LANGUAGES; and the miraculous knowledge of these languages was clearly given to prove to these assembled Jews that the Gospel the Apostles spoke was from God. They were speaking human languages, to humans, for the teaching of those humans. There is also no indication whatsoever that the Apostles lips moved and sound came out, without them understanding what they were saying.

I would imagine that after one was given miraculous knowledge of a language, they could later choose to pray in that language as well as their original native tongue or any languages they had learned in the usual way. But can you show me anywhere in the Bible an example where "speaking in tongues" is given for the PURPOSE of speaking to God? I don't think there is such a passage. Speaking in tongues was given to be an evidence to men to prove the word of God, not AS a special way to speak to God.

God knows what we need before we ask it, and understands our heart even when we don't know how to express it.
Rom 8:26 And likewise the Spirit also joins in to help our weaknesses. For we do not know what we should pray as we ought, but the Spirit Himself intercedes on our behalf with groanings that cannot be uttered.
When we need to say something to God we don't know how to say; the Spirit doesn't make our tongue move in a way we don't understand to utter something we don't understand. The Spirit intercedes on our behalf without needing any utterance at all.

As to why I am "so resistant to it"; I only wish more people were more resistant to unscriptural ideas that only serve to distract us from really spreading the Gospel and avoiding the temptations Satan puts before us.
Jam 4:7 Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.
This is true whether the temptations are of lust, greed, hatred, or self-aggrandizement, just as Paul cautioned against at the time when obvious miracles of many kinds were being used to prove that the new and previously unknown things the Apostles were teaching were from God. During the time when tongues were used to prove God's word ...1Cr 14:22 Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying [serveth] not for them that believe not, but for them which believe...Paul wrote two whole chapters in 1 Corinthians for the primary purpose of urging them not to be distracted by this miraculous knowledge of languages and other miraculous abilities they were given to prove new revelation; but to focus on the Word that was being revealed.

And yet we spend time distracted by a discussion of whether or not God still gives abilities to some that he never required of anyone (although I agree he did at one time give them); while we should FIRST be diligently seeking Unity according to God's word on issues that are absolutely fundamental to our Salvation.

If it turns out I'm wrong about "speaking in tongues" today, then I guess I'll be wiping a little egg off my face as I take my first steps on those "streets of gold". But if I ignored coming in contact with the Blood of Jesus Christ, I'd be stepping into the "lake of fire", and that's a fate I whole-heartedly would like to see everyone avoid.

[RayMan]

There was a time when we couldn't get them in our churches too...my how things change.

Sa-weet point CID-man. :clap:

[Reeder]

My "fascination with this question" of what language one is speaking is to confirm whether it is a language in the sense that Act 2 describes it. My answer from the scripture to your question; "Do you even know if on the day of Pentecost, if those speaking in other tongues knew what language it was"; is that it was not only one language, but the Apostles were speaking multiple languages. Possibly one disciple one language, and one another language or perhaps each Apostle alternated which language they spoke, so that they could be understood in the native tongues of those who were gathered there from different regions.
The Apostles were CLEARLY speaking in KNOWN LANGUAGES; and the miraculous knowledge of these languages was clearly given to prove to these assembles Jews that the Gospel the Apostles spoke was from God. They were speaking human languages, to humans, for the teaching of those humans. There is also no indication whatsoever that the Apostles lips moved and sound came out, without them understanding what they were saying.

I would imagine that after one was given miraculous knowledge of a language, they could later choose to pray in that language as well as their original native tongue or any languages they had learned in the usual way. But can you show me anywhere in the Bible an example where "speaking in tongues" is given for the PURPOSE of to God? I don't think there is such a passage. Speaking in tongues was given to be an evidence to men to prove the word of God, not AS a special way to speak to God.

God knows what we need before we ask it, and understands our heart even when we don't know how to express it.

When we need to say something to God we don't know how to say; the Spirit doesn't make our tongue move in a way we don't understand to utter something we don't understand. The Spirit intercedes on our behalf without needing any utterance at all.

As to why I am "so resistant to it"; I only wish more people were more resistant to unscriptural ideas that only serve to distract us from really spreading the Gospel and avoiding the temptations Satan puts before us.

This is true whether the temptations are of lust, greed, hatred, or self-aggrandizement, just as Paul cautioned against at the time when obvious miracles of many kinds were being used to prove that the new and previously unknown things the Apostles were teaching were from God. During the time when tongues were used to prove God's word ......Paul wrote two whole chapters in 1 Corinthians for the primary purpose of urging them not to be distracted by this miraculous knowledge of languages and other miraculous abilities they were given to prove new revelation; but to focus on the Word that was being revealed.

And yet we spend time distracted by a discussion of whether or not God still gives abilities to some that he never required of anyone (although I agree he did at one time give them); while we should FIRST be diligently seeking Unity according to God's word on issues that are absolutely fundamental to our Salvation.

If it turns out I'm wrong about "speaking in tongues" today, then I guess I'll be wiping a little egg off my face as I take my first steps on those "streets of gold". But if I ignored coming in contact with the Blood of Jesus Christ, I'd be stepping into the "lake of fire", and that's a fate I whole-heartedly would like to see everyone avoid.

Excellent post, Vradic! :clap:

[CID_0687]

My "fascination with this question" of what language one is speaking is to confirm whether it is a language in the sense that Act 2 describes it. My answer from the scripture to your question; "Do you even know if on the day of Pentecost, if those speaking in other tongues knew what language it was"; is that it was not only one language, but the Apostles were speaking multiple languages. Possibly one disciple one language, and one another language or perhaps each Apostle alternated which language they spoke, so that they could be understood in the native tongues of those who were gathered there from different regions.
The Apostles were CLEARLY speaking in KNOWN LANGUAGES; and the miraculous knowledge of these languages was clearly given to prove to these assembles Jews that the Gospel the Apostles spoke was from God. They were speaking human languages, to humans, for the teaching of those humans. There is also no indication whatsoever that the Apostles lips moved and sound came out, without them understanding what they were saying.

I would imagine that after one was given miraculous knowledge of a language, they could later choose to pray in that language as well as their original native tongue or any languages they had learned in the usual way. But can you show me anywhere in the Bible an example where "speaking in tongues" is given for the PURPOSE of to God? I don't think there is such a passage. Speaking in tongues was given to be an evidence to men to prove the word of God, not AS a special way to speak to God.

God knows what we need before we ask it, and understands our heart even when we don't know how to express it.

When we need to say something to God we don't know how to say; the Spirit doesn't make our tongue move in a way we don't understand to utter something we don't understand. The Spirit intercedes on our behalf without needing any utterance at all.

As to why I am "so resistant to it"; I only wish more people were more resistant to unscriptural ideas that only serve to distract us from really spreading the Gospel and avoiding the temptations Satan puts before us.

This is true whether the temptations are of lust, greed, hatred, or self-aggrandizement, just as Paul cautioned against at the time when obvious miracles of many kinds were being used to prove that the new and previously unknown things the Apostles were teaching were from God. During the time when tongues were used to prove God's word ......Paul wrote two whole chapters in 1 Corinthians for the primary purpose of urging them not to be distracted by this miraculous knowledge of languages and other miraculous abilities they were given to prove new revelation; but to focus on the Word that was being revealed.

And yet we spend time distracted by a discussion of whether or not God still gives abilities to some that he never required of anyone (although I agree he did at one time give them); while we should FIRST be diligently seeking Unity according to God's word on issues that are absolutely fundamental to our Salvation.

If it turns out I'm wrong about "speaking in tongues" today, then I guess I'll be wiping a little egg off my face as I take my first steps on those "streets of gold". But if I ignored coming in contact with the Blood of Jesus Christ, I'd be stepping into the "lake of fire", and that's a fate I whole-heartedly would like to see everyone avoid.
What confuses me on this is that God doesn't change, He's the same yesterday, today, and forever...so if He doesn't change, then His word would not change...Why give a gift, such as tongues, or prophecy...have it recorded in His word and then take it away?

I've yet to see the disclaimer that says "This is null and void after the first century."

[mgifford]

Sa-weet point CID-man. :clap:

Will this serious thread about a "scared gift" go the way of the "larry curly and mo jokes" mode?

[RayMan]

As to why I am "so resistant to it"; I only wish more people were more resistant to unscriptural ideas that only serve to distract us from really spreading the Gospel and avoiding the temptations Satan puts before us.


Have I mentioned recently that the Pentecostal/Charismatic movement has gone from basically zero in 1900 to over 600 million in the last 108 years, making it second in adherents only to the RCC at slightly over 1 billion?

With a conversion/growth rate of over 17 million a year it is the fastest growing subset of Christianity in the world and is projected to outnumber the RCC by 2030.

You are welcome to your opinion (and let's keep in mind that that is what you are posting) but to say Pentecostals and Charismatics are not effectively taking the gospel to the nations shows a lack of knowledge of what is going on out there on the mission field and here at home.


(BTW - I have posted the sources for these numbers before - Christianity Today for example - don't have them on this laptop but I can dig them up and repost if anyone wants me to.)

[CID_0687]

Will this serious thread about a "scared gift" go the way of the "larry curly and mo jokes" mode?
With Ray and me anything is possible...in fact since we've lost Frazzled it's just been Moe and Larry, you wanna be the new Shemp?

If we do goof around though it's all in good Christian fun, and the thread will be back on track in no time...or at least in 3 pages.

[mgifford]

With Ray and me anything is possible...in fact since we've lost Frazzled it's just been Moe and Larry, you wanna be the new Shemp?

If we do goof around though it's all in good Christian fun, and the thread will be back on track in no time...or at least in 3 pages.

No thanks, I can joke around on my time, God's time is when you present the "Gospel" and the "gifts" to the world. I thought this would separate a lot of mixed feeling about "Tongues" but wrong I was.

[Reeder]

Have I mentioned recently that the Pentecostal/Charismatic movement has gone from basically zero in 1900 to over 600 million in the last 108 years, making it second in adherents only to the RCC at slightly over 1 billion?

With a conversion/growth rate of over 17 million a year it is the fastest growing subset of Christianity in the world and is projected to outnumber the RCC by 2030.

You are welcome to your opinion (and let's keep in mind that that is what you are posting) but to say Pentecostals and Charismatics are not effectively taking the gospel to the nations shows a lack of knowledge of what is going on out there on the mission field and here at home.


(BTW - I have posted the sources for these numbers before - Christianity Today for example - don't have them on this laptop but I can dig them up and repost if anyone wants me to.)

I'm not sure that he was saying that Pentecostals are not effectively taking the gospel to the nations. I simply saw him as prioritizing the gospel message. What should be our main focus?

When I said "Excellent post," I did not mean to say that Pentecostals were not effecient in spreading the gospel, or that they are in any way not following the gospel. I apologize if you supposed that I was supporting such an idea. I was simply impressed by the ultimate message of his post - namely that all these little things are only a part of the big picture (the gospel).

P.S. - I am very much a believer in the gift of tongues (yes, even today).

[CID_0687]

No thanks, I can joke around on my time, God's time is when you present the "Gospel" and the "gifts" to the world. I thought this would separate a lot of mixed feeling about "Tongues" but wrong I was.
Well you have a similar idea for the thread as me then...to answer many of the questions...which unfortunately everyone wants to focus so much attention on the "Tongues" aspect of our faith...which to me is such a small issue, but because those who haven't experienced it want to make such a big deal about it we will be spending a lot of time on it.

I believe there's a time to be serious myself, and when discussing the Gospel, and my Faith I am serious...but if there's an opportunity for humor, well, I've never been one to back down from that either.

I hope you'll continue to throw in your $.02 mgifford, I find many of your posts very insightful. :D

[Vradic]

What confuses me on this is that God doesn't change, He's the same yesterday, today, and forever...so if He doesn't change, then His word would not change...Why give a gift, such as tongues, or prophecy...have it recorded in His word and then take it away?

I've yet to see the disclaimer that says "This is null and void after the first century."
You are correct that God does not change. And yet he no longer requires animal sacrifice, the burning of incense, circumcision, or many other things that were part of the Covenants given under Moses. Of course even the OT gave foreshadowing of a time when sacrifice, and some other things would pass away.

As a prime example of this, the Apostles came together and determined that, even though they had not specifically been told to do away with circumcision, circumcision was no longer required since it no longer served its original purpose. The original purpose of circumcision was to seal one as dedicated to God. It was a visible witness of this dedication that Jews carried in their flesh (actually this began under Abraham, before there were Jews).

But under the New Covenant, Baptism serves as the visible witness of being dedicated to God. While this new demonstration of dedication doesn't leave permanent evidence in our flesh, it leaves the "circumcision" of the heart; which is what God always really wanted. Even the OT prophets speak of circumcision of the heart.

Since miracles were always given to prove the revelation of God, and I believe the whole word of God has been revealed; I think it makes perfect sense that he wouldn't give us the ability to do miracles today. I wholeheartedly believe he still provides us what we need, that he answers prayer and performs instances of providential healing. I just don't see the need for the continuation of visible miracles of the type described in the Bible.

It was the same way in the 400 years between the last OT prophet and the time of Jesus. Those faithful Jews of that time still understood that God was in control and his power was over all, even without visible miracles or new revelation.

That's why I believe that miracles and revelation from God go hand in hand. And if someone claims to perform miracles, we had better make sure both that they are true "miracles" as per the type recorded in the Bible, and that any "revelation" claimed by those who perform them is not in opposition to the existing scriptures. For as you said, "God doesn't change".

[RayMan]

I'm not sure that he was saying that Pentecostals are not effectively taking the gospel to the nations. I simply saw him as prioritizing the gospel message. What should be our main focus?

When I said "Excellent post," I did not mean to say that Pentecostals were not effecient in spreading the gospel, or that they are in any way not following the gospel. I apologize if you supposed that I was supporting such an idea. I was simply impressed by the ultimate message of his post - namely that all these little things are only a part of the big picture (the gospel).

P.S. - I am very much a believer in the gift of tongues (yes, even today).


Shucks, no worries bro. I agree with most of what Vradic writes, that is why I only quoted the part I take the greatest issue with.

Vradic: As to why I am "so resistant to it"; I only wish more people were more resistant to unscriptural ideas that only serve to distract us from really spreading the Gospel and avoiding the temptations Satan puts before us. He makes clear his belief that those of us who believe in the Baptism of the Spirit and the manifestations of the Spirit are believing and spreading false ideas - another way of saying false doctrine - and that those doctrines only serve to distract us from REALLY spreading the gospel. I disagree wholeheartedly with his conclusions, which are based neither on fact nor on what 600 million of us Pentecostals believe to be good exigesis.

[CID_0687]

You are correct that God does not change. And yet he no longer requires animal sacrifice, the burning of incense, circumcision, or many other things that were part of the Covenants given under Moses. Of course even the OT gave foreshadowing of a time when sacrifice, and some other things would pass away.

As a prime example of this, the Apostles came together and determined that, even though they had not specifically been told to do away with circumcision, circumcision was no longer required since it no longer served its original purpose. The original purpose of circumcision was to seal one as dedicated to God. It was a visible witness of this dedication that Jews carried in their flesh (actually this began under Abraham, before there were Jews).

But under the New Covenant, Baptism serves as the visible witness of being dedicated to God. While this new demonstration of dedication doesn't leave permanent evidence in our flesh, it leaves the "circumcision" of the heart; which is what God always really wanted. Even the OT prophets speak of circumcision of the heart.

Since miracles were always given to prove the revelation of God, and I believe the whole word of God has been revealed; I think it makes perfect sense that he wouldn't give us the ability to do miracles today. I wholeheartedly believe he still provides us what we need, that he answers prayer and performs instances of providential healing. I just don't see the need for the continuation of visible miracles of the type described in the Bible.

It was the same way in the 400 years between the last OT prophet and the time of Jesus. Those faithful Jews of that time still understood that God was in control and his power was over all, even without visible miracles or new revelation.

That's why I believe that miracles and revelation from God go hand in hand. And if someone claims to perform miracles, we had better make sure both that they are true "miracles" as per the type recorded in the Bible, and that any "revelation" claimed by those who perform them is not in opposition to the existing scriptures. For as you said, "God doesn't change".
I believe that the whole word of God has been revealed as well, as in the sense that the Bible is God's complete word...however, in the Bible we are told to go an proclaim the Gospel to the world...Jesus said, the things He did, we'll do greater...Signs and wonders are not for those who believe, but for those who believe not.

Now if were at a point where Everyone had been given the opportunity to know Christ then I would agree with you that we do not need these things anymore, but since only 33% of the world believes in Christ...and there are countless people, even here in the USA that have never heard the Gospel of Christ, well we've still got a lot of ground to cover.

Edit to add: And with all the ground we have to cover, I can't say that it is complete yet.

[Vradic]

Have I mentioned recently that the Pentecostal/Charismatic movement has gone from basically zero in 1900 to over 600 million in the last 108 years, making it second in adherents only to the RCC at slightly over 1 billion?

With a conversion/growth rate of over 17 million a year it is the fastest growing subset of Christianity in the world and is projected to outnumber the RCC by 2030.

You are welcome to your opinion (and let's keep in mind that that is what you are posting) but to say Pentecostals and Charismatics are not effectively taking the gospel to the nations shows a lack of knowledge of what is going on out there on the mission field and here at home.


(BTW - I have posted the sources for these numbers before - Christianity Today for example - don't have them on this laptop but I can dig them up and repost if anyone wants me to.)
Since you clearly indicate this is a movement that began about 1900, are you saying Pentecostalism is the new replacement for the Church established in the First Century and is the result of new revelation?

I applaud the efforts and intent of any who work diligently at sowing the seed. But unless it's a new seed that's being sown, I still don't see the purpose for miracles in sowing it. Jesus, in the story of the rich man and Lazarus, indicated the proven word had enough power of it's own without having to be proven over again.
Luk 16:31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.
Of course Jesus did rise from the dead, and with that resurrection and the miracles of the Apostles came the new word from God, the Gospel of the Kingdom of Jesus Christ. But the same people that rejected his resurrection were already ignoring the previously written scriptures of "Moses and the prophets."

I suggest it is the same power of the already proven Word of God that today is still bringing people to the Kingdom, sown by the hand of those who are themselves fruit of that same Gospel.

[gpd®]

Have I mentioned recently that the Pentecostal/Charismatic movement has gone from basically zero in 1900 to over 600 million in the last 108 years, making it second in adherents only to the RCC at slightly over 1 billion?

With a conversion/growth rate of over 17 million a year it is the fastest growing subset of Christianity in the world and is projected to outnumber the RCC by 2030.

You are welcome to your opinion (and let's keep in mind that that is what you are posting) but to say Pentecostals and Charismatics are not effectively taking the gospel to the nations shows a lack of knowledge of what is going on out there on the mission field and here at home.


(BTW - I have posted the sources for these numbers before - Christianity Today for example - don't have them on this laptop but I can dig them up and repost if anyone wants me to.)

And as Pentecostals, we take the biggest fall when we err.

....Much is given much is required.

[RayMan]

Hey what do you know! Turns out I did have the references for the stats I quoted from memory earlier in a text file on my laptop. To recap:

The Pentecostal/Charismatic Movement has grown from 0 to somewhere between 600-700 million in the past 108 years.

It is now the second largest subset of Christianity and it is projected that by the year 2025 it will surpass the RCC in numbers.

Most of the sources quoted are from 2000-2005, this is why the numbers are somewhat lower but with a growth rate of 19 million a year the numbers add up quickly.

I will post an excerpt from each source and the url where it is found. Several of the sources give great insight into the growth of Pentecostalism worldwide and are well worth taking a look at, but are too long to post.

Researcher tabulates world's believers
By: Richard N. Ostling, Associated Press
Date: 19 May 2001
Source: Salt Lake Tribune
http://www.adherents.com/misc/WCE.html (http://www.sltrib.com/2001/May/05192001/Saturday/98497.htm)


RICHMOND, Va. -- When Britain's Royal Aircraft Establishment reassigned David B. Barrett from airplane design to missiles and warheads in 1952, it became a turning point -- and not just for him.

The aeronautical engineer quit to train for the Church of England priesthood, expressing hope the church could make use of his mathematics expertise and pioneering computer work.

"Forget science completely," his bishop advised. But Barrett could not.

Since adding a religion doctorate from Columbia University to his technical background, he has spent 40 years systematizing information on world religions, a calling he discovered while assigned as an Anglican missionary in Africa.

Now 73, Barrett recently culminated his oddly remarkable career with publication of the second edition of his global accounting of faiths and the faithful -- trends, details and his best estimated count of believers of all religions in each of 238 nations and territories.

Never has there been such a thorough reference as the two large volumes, running 1,699 pages, of the World Christian Encyclopedia, published by Oxford University Press.

Barrett has doggedly visited most of the lands in person, collecting raw material, including national census figures and United Nations data, and recruiting the 444 specialists who feed him material. Among them: Vatican missions librarian Willi Henkel and editor J. Gordon Melton of the Encyclopedia of American Religions.
---------------------
Another global trend that Barrett's encyclopedia describes is the rise of Pentecostals, who believe in receipt of "gifts" of the Holy Spirit, including speaking in tongues. He also notes increases in the similar Charismatics in traditional denominations, and "Neo-Charismatics" in independent churches.

Barrett and Johnson call themselves Charismatic, part of the Holy Spirit movement in old-line denominations, and their estimate that the related Pentecostal and Charismatic movements encompass 524 million believers will be one of their work's more controversial statistics. No one else has attempted such an estimate.


The Spirit Bade Me Go:
Pentecostalism and Global Religion

Margaret M. Poloma
Department of Sociology
The University of Akron
Akron, OH 44325-1905
http://hirr.hartsem.edu/research/pentecostalism_polomaart1.html


Paper prepared for presentation at the Association for the Sociology of Religion Annual Meetings, August 11-13, 2000. Washington, D.C.
Welcome to the World of Pentecostal Reality

With an adaptation of the title of Walter Truett Anderson’s (1990) delightful book on postmodernity, I would like to open this paper by proclaiming, "Religion isn’t what it used to be." At least it is not what it "used to be" for many scholars of religion whose knowledge is limited to what’s popular and politically correct in current academic thought. While interesting discussions can be found on topics ranging from long-running secularization and sacralization debates to market forces underlying religious restructuring, one of the most noteworthy developments rarely is discussed at our meetings or in our journals. What I speak of here is the rise of Pentecostalism from having no adherents (as we know Pentecostalism today) in 1906 to an estimated 500 million followers today. (Barrett 1982;1999). Pentecostalism, in its varying expressions, comprises the second largest communion of Christians in the world.

------

Global statistics are understandably less precise than these just cited for the United States, but it is agreed by those who have investigated Pentecostalism’s growth that Pentecostalism is having an enormous impact on the shape of Christianity. As the subtitle of Harvey Cox’s (1996) book on worldwide Pentecostalism suggests, it is indeed "reshaping the religion of the twenty-first century." The following summary statement represents a terse but telling report on global Pentecostalism:

According to the well-known statistician of Christianity, David Barrett, there were an estimated 74 million ‘Pentecostals/Charismatics’, or 6% of the world’s Christian population in 1970. In 1997 he estimated that this figure had reached 497 million or 27% of the Christian population, more than the total number of ‘Protestants’ and ‘Anglicans’ combined, and only 27 years later. Barrett projects that according to present trends this figure is likely to rise to 1,140 million or 44% of the total number of Christians by 2025 (Anderson 1999).


A ZENIT DAILY DISPATCH

On Catholics and Pentecostals

A Historical Overview

VATICAN CITY, 20 JULY 2006 (ZENIT)
http://www.ewtn.com/library/CHISTORY/zcathpente.HTM


Although they all describe themselves as Pentecostal, there are slight structural differences between them; while three important trends can be identified, there is no organic institutional unity among them nor a totally representative world structure.

Many claim, on the other hand, that the spiritual unity which derives from "Baptism in the Spirit" is a fundamental and sufficient bond.

In addition to the properly Pentecostal denominations (classical Pentecostals), Pentecostal groups exist within the various Churches and ecclesial communities: (denominational Pentecostals, such as the Catholic Charismatic Renewal); many others define themselves as non-denominational, neo-charismatic and independent.

To these can be added a long list of groups of a dubious ecclesial and Christian character that can hardly be called religious but that carry out activities using Pentecostal forms.

In 2005, it was calculated that there were 500 million Pentecostals.

Certain studies forecast a growth of 2.25% in comparison with the 1.23% (4) increase in the world population. It should be noted that these figures also include Christians who live Pentecostal spirituality in their own Churches and those who occasionally come into contact with the Pentecostal reality. Also, there are no statistics for those who have abandoned Pentecostalism.




The Proliferation and Varieties of Pentecostalism in the Majority World
Lezing van Allan Anderson op het symposium Niet-Westers Pentacostalisme in Nederland
Diaspora en bekering

27-28 februari 2003
te Amsterdam
Research Unit for Pentecostal Studies, Centre for Missiology and World Christianity, University of Birmingham, UK
http://www.zendingsraad.nl/Allan%20Anderson.htm

Defining 'Pentecostalism'
Pentecostalism, with origins in the late 19th and early 20th centuries, has become probably the fastest growing expression of Christianity of all time. Statisticians David Barrett and Todd Johnson estimated that there were over 553 million 'Pentecostal/ charismatics/ neocharismatics', almost 27% of the Christians in the world in 2003 and projected this to rise to 31% by 2025.(1) These impressive but speculative figures are often quoted to point to 'Pentecostalism', the largest force in world Christianity after Roman Catholicism.(2) But the half a billion 'Pentecostal/ charismatics/ neocharismatics' are predominantly Asians, Africans, and Latin Americans, and are female. The Majority World continents are where the greatest expansion of Pentecostalism has occurred.


Christianity Today Magazine
Pentecostals: The Sequel
What will it take for this world phenomenon to stay vibrant for another 100 years?
Grant McClung | posted 4/01/2006 12:00AM
http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2006/april/7.30.html

Global Expansion

With more than 580 million adherents (growing by 19 million per year and 54,000 per day), the Pentecostal/charismatic movement has become, in just 100 years, the fastest growing and most globally diverse expression of worldwide Christianity. At the current rate of growth, some researchers predict there will be 1 billion Pentecostals by 2025, most located in Asia, Africa, and Latin America.

The mind-boggling research by David Barrett and Todd Johnson reveals some surprising statistics about the movement:
Pentecostals comprise 3 major streams and 59 diverse categories of worldwide Christianity.
Pentecostals can be found within all 150 non-charismatic Christian traditions.
Pentecostals come from 9,000 ethnolinguistic cultures and speak 8,000 languages.
Pentecostalism is more urban than rural, more female than male, more majority world (66%) than Western world (34%), more poor (87%) than affluent (13%), more family-related than individualist, and more young than old.
Pentecostals are an active presence in 80% of the world's 3,300 largest metropolises.

Barrett and Johnson conclude that "the sheer magnitude and diversity of the numbers involved beggar the imagination." Given this kind of international diversity, are there any clues about what Pentecostalism's central mission may be in tomorrow's world?



(eta: final source)

[RayMan]

[quote=Vradic;36572091]Since you clearly indicate this is a movement that began about 1900, are you saying Pentecostalism is the new replacement for the Church established in the First Century and is the result of new revelation?
<snip>

How you could think I was saying that is quite beyond me. It almost seems as if you are starting your post with an attempt to put words in my mouth. Divisive words at that. I would appreciate you not doing that again.

[CID_0687]

Since you clearly indicate this is a movement that began about 1900, are you saying Pentecostalism is the new replacement for the Church established in the First Century and is the result of new revelation?

I applaud the efforts and intent of any who work diligently at sowing the seed. But unless it's a new seed that's being sown, I still don't see the purpose for miracles in sowing it. Jesus, in the story of the rich man and Lazarus, indicated the proven word had enough power of it's own without having to be proven over again.

Of course Jesus did rise from the dead, and with that resurrection and the miracles of the Apostles came the new word from God, the Gospel of the Kingdom of Jesus Christ. But the same people that rejected his resurrection were already ignoring the previously written scriptures of "Moses and the prophets."

I suggest it is the same power of the already proven Word of God that today is still bringing people to the Kingdom, sown by the hand of those who are themselves fruit of that same Gospel.
Many would argue that the Pentecostals are the original church started, on the Day of Pentecost...and that in the Azusa St. Revival in the early 20th Century the flame was simply rekindled.

But if we're going to use your reasoning then who's to say which is the true church and which isn't..every denomination is going to claim that they are the church as Christ intended it to be...The Catholics seem to have the popular vote on that...The majority of your Protestant denominations came out of the Reformation...was this a new Revelation? I'd say yes.

Revelation means nothing more than God revealing Himself and His will to someone...Did you not have a Revelation when you were saved, did you not have one when God called you into ministry?

God reveals things to each and every one of us daily.

[CID_0687]

Hey what do you know! Turns out I did have the references for the stats I quoted from memory earlier in a text file on my laptop. To recap:

The Pentecostal/Charismatic Movement has grown from 0 to somewhere between 600-700 million in the past 108 years.

It is now the second largest subset of Christianity and it is projected that by the year 2025 it will surpass the RCC in numbers.

Most of the sources quoted are from 2000-2005, this is why the numbers are somewhat lower but with a growth rate in excess of 17 million a year the numbers add up quickly.

I will post an excerpt from each source and the url where it is found. Several of the sources give great insight into the growth of Pentecostalism worldwide and are well worth taking a look at, but are too long to post.

Researcher tabulates world's believers
By: Richard N. Ostling, Associated Press
Date: 19 May 2001
Source: Salt Lake Tribune
http://www.adherents.com/misc/WCE.html (http://www.sltrib.com/2001/May/05192001/Saturday/98497.htm)


RICHMOND, Va. -- When Britain's Royal Aircraft Establishment reassigned David B. Barrett from airplane design to missiles and warheads in 1952, it became a turning point -- and not just for him.

The aeronautical engineer quit to train for the Church of England priesthood, expressing hope the church could make use of his mathematics expertise and pioneering computer work.

"Forget science completely," his bishop advised. But Barrett could not.

Since adding a religion doctorate from Columbia University to his technical background, he has spent 40 years systematizing information on world religions, a calling he discovered while assigned as an Anglican missionary in Africa.

Now 73, Barrett recently culminated his oddly remarkable career with publication of the second edition of his global accounting of faiths and the faithful -- trends, details and his best estimated count of believers of all religions in each of 238 nations and territories.

Never has there been such a thorough reference as the two large volumes, running 1,699 pages, of the World Christian Encyclopedia, published by Oxford University Press.

Barrett has doggedly visited most of the lands in person, collecting raw material, including national census figures and United Nations data, and recruiting the 444 specialists who feed him material. Among them: Vatican missions librarian Willi Henkel and editor J. Gordon Melton of the Encyclopedia of American Religions.
---------------------
Another global trend that Barrett's encyclopedia describes is the rise of Pentecostals, who believe in receipt of "gifts" of the Holy Spirit, including speaking in tongues. He also notes increases in the similar Charismatics in traditional denominations, and "Neo-Charismatics" in independent churches.

Barrett and Johnson call themselves Charismatic, part of the Holy Spirit movement in old-line denominations, and their estimate that the related Pentecostal and Charismatic movements encompass 524 million believers will be one of their work's more controversial statistics. No one else has attempted such an estimate.


The Spirit Bade Me Go:
Pentecostalism and Global Religion

Margaret M. Poloma
Department of Sociology
The University of Akron
Akron, OH 44325-1905
http://hirr.hartsem.edu/research/pentecostalism_polomaart1.html


Paper prepared for presentation at the Association for the Sociology of Religion Annual Meetings, August 11-13, 2000. Washington, D.C.
Welcome to the World of Pentecostal Reality

With an adaptation of the title of Walter Truett Anderson’s (1990) delightful book on postmodernity, I would like to open this paper by proclaiming, "Religion isn’t what it used to be." At least it is not what it "used to be" for many scholars of religion whose knowledge is limited to what’s popular and politically correct in current academic thought. While interesting discussions can be found on topics ranging from long-running secularization and sacralization debates to market forces underlying religious restructuring, one of the most noteworthy developments rarely is discussed at our meetings or in our journals. What I speak of here is the rise of Pentecostalism from having no adherents (as we know Pentecostalism today) in 1906 to an estimated 500 million followers today. (Barrett 1982;1999). Pentecostalism, in its varying expressions, comprises the second largest communion of Christians in the world.

------

Global statistics are understandably less precise than these just cited for the United States, but it is agreed by those who have investigated Pentecostalism’s growth that Pentecostalism is having an enormous impact on the shape of Christianity. As the subtitle of Harvey Cox’s (1996) book on worldwide Pentecostalism suggests, it is indeed "reshaping the religion of the twenty-first century." The following summary statement represents a terse but telling report on global Pentecostalism:

According to the well-known statistician of Christianity, David Barrett, there were an estimated 74 million ‘Pentecostals/Charismatics’, or 6% of the world’s Christian population in 1970. In 1997 he estimated that this figure had reached 497 million or 27% of the Christian population, more than the total number of ‘Protestants’ and ‘Anglicans’ combined, and only 27 years later. Barrett projects that according to present trends this figure is likely to rise to 1,140 million or 44% of the total number of Christians by 2025 (Anderson 1999).


A ZENIT DAILY DISPATCH

On Catholics and Pentecostals

A Historical Overview

VATICAN CITY, 20 JULY 2006 (ZENIT)
http://www.ewtn.com/library/CHISTORY/zcathpente.HTM


Although they all describe themselves as Pentecostal, there are slight structural differences between them; while three important trends can be identified, there is no organic institutional unity among them nor a totally representative world structure.

Many claim, on the other hand, that the spiritual unity which derives from "Baptism in the Spirit" is a fundamental and sufficient bond.

In addition to the properly Pentecostal denominations (classical Pentecostals), Pentecostal groups exist within the various Churches and ecclesial communities: (denominational Pentecostals, such as the Catholic Charismatic Renewal); many others define themselves as non-denominational, neo-charismatic and independent.

To these can be added a long list of groups of a dubious ecclesial and Christian character that can hardly be called religious but that carry out activities using Pentecostal forms.

In 2005, it was calculated that there were 500 million Pentecostals.

Certain studies forecast a growth of 2.25% in comparison with the 1.23% (4) increase in the world population. It should be noted that these figures also include Christians who live Pentecostal spirituality in their own Churches and those who occasionally come into contact with the Pentecostal reality. Also, there are no statistics for those who have abandoned Pentecostalism.




The Proliferation and Varieties of Pentecostalism in the Majority World
Lezing van Allan Anderson op het symposium Niet-Westers Pentacostalisme in Nederland
Diaspora en bekering

27-28 februari 2003
te Amsterdam
Research Unit for Pentecostal Studies, Centre for Missiology and World Christianity, University of Birmingham, UK
http://www.zendingsraad.nl/Allan%20Anderson.htm

Defining 'Pentecostalism'
Pentecostalism, with origins in the late 19th and early 20th centuries, has become probably the fastest growing expression of Christianity of all time. Statisticians David Barrett and Todd Johnson estimated that there were over 553 million 'Pentecostal/ charismatics/ neocharismatics', almost 27% of the Christians in the world in 2003 and projected this to rise to 31% by 2025.(1) These impressive but speculative figures are often quoted to point to 'Pentecostalism', the largest force in world Christianity after Roman Catholicism.(2) But the half a billion 'Pentecostal/ charismatics/ neocharismatics' are predominantly Asians, Africans, and Latin Americans, and are female. The Majority World continents are where the greatest expansion of Pentecostalism has occurred.
Excellent sources Ray...Thanks. :D

[RayMan]

CID,
Just edited my original to include the source below. I was running linux and didn't find the bookmark for this until I booted into XP. I am too geeky for my own good.
-----------------
Christianity Today Magazine
Pentecostals: The Sequel
What will it take for this world phenomenon to stay vibrant for another 100 years?
Grant McClung | posted 4/01/2006 12:00AM
http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/...pril/7.30.html

Global Expansion

With more than 580 million adherents (growing by 19 million per year and 54,000 per day), the Pentecostal/charismatic movement has become, in just 100 years, the fastest growing and most globally diverse expression of worldwide Christianity. At the current rate of growth, some researchers predict there will be 1 billion Pentecostals by 2025, most located in Asia, Africa, and Latin America.

The mind-boggling research by David Barrett and Todd Johnson reveals some surprising statistics about the movement:
Pentecostals comprise 3 major streams and 59 diverse categories of worldwide Christianity.
Pentecostals can be found within all 150 non-charismatic Christian traditions.
Pentecostals come from 9,000 ethnolinguistic cultures and speak 8,000 languages.
Pentecostalism is more urban than rural, more female than male, more majority world (66%) than Western world (34%), more poor (87%) than affluent (13%), more family-related than individualist, and more young than old.
Pentecostals are an active presence in 80% of the world's 3,300 largest metropolises.

Barrett and Johnson conclude that "the sheer magnitude and diversity of the numbers involved beggar the imagination." Given this kind of international diversity, are there any clues about what Pentecostalism's central mission may be in tomorrow's world?

[CID_0687]

CID,
Just edited my original to include the source below. I was running linux and didn't find the bookmark for this until I booted into XP. I am too geeky for my own good.
-----------------
Christianity Today Magazine
Pentecostals: The Sequel
What will it take for this world phenomenon to stay vibrant for another 100 years?
Grant McClung | posted 4/01/2006 12:00AM
http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/...pril/7.30.html

Global Expansion

With more than 580 million adherents (growing by 19 million per year and 54,000 per day), the Pentecostal/charismatic movement has become, in just 100 years, the fastest growing and most globally diverse expression of worldwide Christianity. At the current rate of growth, some researchers predict there will be 1 billion Pentecostals by 2025, most located in Asia, Africa, and Latin America.

The mind-boggling research by David Barrett and Todd Johnson reveals some surprising statistics about the movement:
Pentecostals comprise 3 major streams and 59 diverse categories of worldwide Christianity.
Pentecostals can be found within all 150 non-charismatic Christian traditions.
Pentecostals come from 9,000 ethnolinguistic cultures and speak 8,000 languages.
Pentecostalism is more urban than rural, more female than male, more majority world (66%) than Western world (34%), more poor (87%) than affluent (13%), more family-related than individualist, and more young than old.
Pentecostals are an active presence in 80% of the world's 3,300 largest metropolises.

Barrett and Johnson conclude that "the sheer magnitude and diversity of the numbers involved beggar the imagination." Given this kind of international diversity, are there any clues about what Pentecostalism's central mission may be in tomorrow's world?
Sweet!! Thanks again Ray!

[buflineks]

CID,
Just edited my original to include the source below. I was running linux and didn't find the bookmark for this until I booted into XP. I am too geeky for my own good.
-----------------
Christianity Today Magazine
Pentecostals: The Sequel
What will it take for this world phenomenon to stay vibrant for another 100 years?
Grant McClung | posted 4/01/2006 12:00AM
http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/...pril/7.30.html

Global Expansion

With more than 580 million adherents (growing by 19 million per year and 54,000 per day), the Pentecostal/charismatic movement has become, in just 100 years, the fastest growing and most globally diverse expression of worldwide Christianity. At the current rate of growth, some researchers predict there will be 1 billion Pentecostals by 2025, most located in Asia, Africa, and Latin America.

The mind-boggling research by David Barrett and Todd Johnson reveals some surprising statistics about the movement:
Pentecostals comprise 3 major streams and 59 diverse categories of worldwide Christianity.
Pentecostals can be found within all 150 non-charismatic Christian traditions.
Pentecostals come from 9,000 ethnolinguistic cultures and speak 8,000 languages.
Pentecostalism is more urban than rural, more female than male, more majority world (66%) than Western world (34%), more poor (87%) than affluent (13%), more family-related than individualist, and more young than old.
Pentecostals are an active presence in 80% of the world's 3,300 largest metropolises.

Barrett and Johnson conclude that "the sheer magnitude and diversity of the numbers involved beggar the imagination." Given this kind of international diversity, are there any clues about what Pentecostalism's central mission may be in tomorrow's world?

What?!?!?!?!?!?!?!

No wikipedia?!?!?!?!?!?;)

I'l make you a convert to "Bufism" yet.:mrgreen:

[CID_0687]

What?!?!?!?!?!?!?!

No wikipedia?!?!?!?!?!?;)

I'l make you a convert to "Bufism" yet.:mrgreen:
:think: What kind of whiskey do the Buffists drink?

[RayMan]

What?!?!?!?!?!?!?!

No wikipedia?!?!?!?!?!?;)

I'l make you a convert to "Bufism" yet.:mrgreen:

Dude,
I am using real live university papers for a couple of my sources on this. No Wiki for the important stuf.

[buflineks]

Dude,
I am using real live university papers for a couple of my sources on this. No Wiki for the important stuf.

[underline mine]


See, you are being seduced by the Dark side of "Bufism".

[CID_0687]

Dude,
I am using real live university papers for a couple of my sources on this. No Wiki for the important stuf.
Maybe not..but surprisingly Wiki does have some good info on Pentecostalism...as does this site...well this more for history.

http://www.azusastreet.org/

[RayMan]

[underline mine]


See, you are being seduced by the Dark side of "Bufism".

There's a Light side?

[RayMan]

:think: What kind of whiskey do the Buffists drink?

Don't twist the knife in buf's back CID. It ain't nice.

[buflineks]

There's a Light side?

You've got a point.:redface:

[Semi-Sweet]

I believe there are some things that we all can agree on. . .when you look at some of the things the Holy Spirit does for folk, and the way he does them. A magnificent instance of what he does for us is in Romans 8:26: "The Spirit comes to the aid of our weakness. We do not know how we ought to pray, but through our inarticulate groans the Spirit himself is pleading for us, and God who searches our inmost being knows what the Spirit means, because he pleads for God's people in God's own way."

Here we see the Spirit as an activist, and the New English Bible makes is clearer what the Spirit does for us in the context of prayer. It is when we are weak, when we realize that we must have help beyond ourselves, that the Spirit comes to our aid. In our faltering, stumbling efforts to pray to God in our agony the Spirit pleads for us "through our inarticulate groans" in God's own way.

God understands wht the Spirit is saying when he takes our fumbling utterances and pleads for us in our weakness. What a beautiful truth this is!

But the Spirit is reluctant to come to one's aid in such a manner if he is self-reliant and is unaware of any such need. There are people who are "so full of the Book" that they experience no such weakness as is talked about here. The Holy Spirit helps weak people. The strong move along on their own resources.

[RayMan]

And as Pentecostals, we take the biggest fall when we err.

....Much is given much is required.

Yep.

With great power comes great responsibility.





(I hope Reeder doesn't see this one.)

[CID_0687]

Don't twist the knife in buf's back CID. It ain't nice.
Oh man I forgot...sorry Buf

[Semi-Sweet]

Pentecostal Grace Statement:

"Is it critical to my salvation?"

Mine as well. . . :D

[RayMan]

The Pentecostal/Charismatic Movement has grown from 0 to somewhere between 600-700 million in the past 108 years.

It is now the second largest subset of Christianity and it is projected that by the year 2025 it will surpass the RCC in numbers.

Most of the sources quoted are from 2000-2005, this is why the numbers are somewhat lower but with a growth rate of 19 million a year the numbers add up quickly.

I will post an excerpt from each source and the url where it is found. Several of the sources give great insight into the growth of Pentecostalism worldwide and are well worth taking a look at, but are too long to post.

Researcher tabulates world's believers
By: Richard N. Ostling, Associated Press
Date: 19 May 2001
Source: Salt Lake Tribune
http://www.adherents.com/misc/WCE.html (http://www.sltrib.com/2001/May/05192001/Saturday/98497.htm)


RICHMOND, Va. -- When Britain's Royal Aircraft Establishment reassigned David B. Barrett from airplane design to missiles and warheads in 1952, it became a turning point -- and not just for him.

The aeronautical engineer quit to train for the Church of England priesthood, expressing hope the church could make use of his mathematics expertise and pioneering computer work.

"Forget science completely," his bishop advised. But Barrett could not.

Since adding a religion doctorate from Columbia University to his technical background, he has spent 40 years systematizing information on world religions, a calling he discovered while assigned as an Anglican missionary in Africa.

Now 73, Barrett recently culminated his oddly remarkable career with publication of the second edition of his global accounting of faiths and the faithful -- trends, details and his best estimated count of believers of all religions in each of 238 nations and territories.

Never has there been such a thorough reference as the two large volumes, running 1,699 pages, of the World Christian Encyclopedia, published by Oxford University Press.

Barrett has doggedly visited most of the lands in person, collecting raw material, including national census figures and United Nations data, and recruiting the 444 specialists who feed him material. Among them: Vatican missions librarian Willi Henkel and editor J. Gordon Melton of the Encyclopedia of American Religions.
---------------------
Another global trend that Barrett's encyclopedia describes is the rise of Pentecostals, who believe in receipt of "gifts" of the Holy Spirit, including speaking in tongues. He also notes increases in the similar Charismatics in traditional denominations, and "Neo-Charismatics" in independent churches.

Barrett and Johnson call themselves Charismatic, part of the Holy Spirit movement in old-line denominations, and their estimate that the related Pentecostal and Charismatic movements encompass 524 million believers will be one of their work's more controversial statistics. No one else has attempted such an estimate.


The Spirit Bade Me Go:
Pentecostalism and Global Religion

Margaret M. Poloma
Department of Sociology
The University of Akron
Akron, OH 44325-1905
http://hirr.hartsem.edu/research/pentecostalism_polomaart1.html


Paper prepared for presentation at the Association for the Sociology of Religion Annual Meetings, August 11-13, 2000. Washington, D.C.
Welcome to the World of Pentecostal Reality

With an adaptation of the title of Walter Truett Anderson’s (1990) delightful book on postmodernity, I would like to open this paper by proclaiming, "Religion isn’t what it used to be." At least it is not what it "used to be" for many scholars of religion whose knowledge is limited to what’s popular and politically correct in current academic thought. While interesting discussions can be found on topics ranging from long-running secularization and sacralization debates to market forces underlying religious restructuring, one of the most noteworthy developments rarely is discussed at our meetings or in our journals. What I speak of here is the rise of Pentecostalism from having no adherents (as we know Pentecostalism today) in 1906 to an estimated 500 million followers today. (Barrett 1982;1999). Pentecostalism, in its varying expressions, comprises the second largest communion of Christians in the world.

------

Global statistics are understandably less precise than these just cited for the United States, but it is agreed by those who have investigated Pentecostalism’s growth that Pentecostalism is having an enormous impact on the shape of Christianity. As the subtitle of Harvey Cox’s (1996) book on worldwide Pentecostalism suggests, it is indeed "reshaping the religion of the twenty-first century." The following summary statement represents a terse but telling report on global Pentecostalism:

According to the well-known statistician of Christianity, David Barrett, there were an estimated 74 million ‘Pentecostals/Charismatics’, or 6% of the world’s Christian population in 1970. In 1997 he estimated that this figure had reached 497 million or 27% of the Christian population, more than the total number of ‘Protestants’ and ‘Anglicans’ combined, and only 27 years later. Barrett projects that according to present trends this figure is likely to rise to 1,140 million or 44% of the total number of Christians by 2025 (Anderson 1999).


A ZENIT DAILY DISPATCH

On Catholics and Pentecostals

A Historical Overview

VATICAN CITY, 20 JULY 2006 (ZENIT)
http://www.ewtn.com/library/CHISTORY/zcathpente.HTM


Although they all describe themselves as Pentecostal, there are slight structural differences between them; while three important trends can be identified, there is no organic institutional unity among them nor a totally representative world structure.

Many claim, on the other hand, that the spiritual unity which derives from "Baptism in the Spirit" is a fundamental and sufficient bond.

In addition to the properly Pentecostal denominations (classical Pentecostals), Pentecostal groups exist within the various Churches and ecclesial communities: (denominational Pentecostals, such as the Catholic Charismatic Renewal); many others define themselves as non-denominational, neo-charismatic and independent.

To these can be added a long list of groups of a dubious ecclesial and Christian character that can hardly be called religious but that carry out activities using Pentecostal forms.

In 2005, it was calculated that there were 500 million Pentecostals.

Certain studies forecast a growth of 2.25% in comparison with the 1.23% (4) increase in the world population. It should be noted that these figures also include Christians who live Pentecostal spirituality in their own Churches and those who occasionally come into contact with the Pentecostal reality. Also, there are no statistics for those who have abandoned Pentecostalism.




The Proliferation and Varieties of Pentecostalism in the Majority World
Lezing van Allan Anderson op het symposium Niet-Westers Pentacostalisme in Nederland
Diaspora en bekering

27-28 februari 2003
te Amsterdam
Research Unit for Pentecostal Studies, Centre for Missiology and World Christianity, University of Birmingham, UK
http://www.zendingsraad.nl/Allan%20Anderson.htm

Defining 'Pentecostalism'
Pentecostalism, with origins in the late 19th and early 20th centuries, has become probably the fastest growing expression of Christianity of all time. Statisticians David Barrett and Todd Johnson estimated that there were over 553 million 'Pentecostal/ charismatics/ neocharismatics', almost 27% of the Christians in the world in 2003 and projected this to rise to 31% by 2025.(1) These impressive but speculative figures are often quoted to point to 'Pentecostalism', the largest force in world Christianity after Roman Catholicism.(2) But the half a billion 'Pentecostal/ charismatics/ neocharismatics' are predominantly Asians, Africans, and Latin Americans, and are female. The Majority World continents are where the greatest expansion of Pentecostalism has occurred.


Christianity Today Magazine
Pentecostals: The Sequel
What will it take for this world phenomenon to stay vibrant for another 100 years?
Grant McClung | posted 4/01/2006 12:00AM
http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2006/april/7.30.html

Global Expansion

With more than 580 million adherents (growing by 19 million per year and 54,000 per day), the Pentecostal/charismatic movement has become, in just 100 years, the fastest growing and most globally diverse expression of worldwide Christianity. At the current rate of growth, some researchers predict there will be 1 billion Pentecostals by 2025, most located in Asia, Africa, and Latin America.

The mind-boggling research by David Barrett and Todd Johnson reveals some surprising statistics about the movement:
Pentecostals comprise 3 major streams and 59 diverse categories of worldwide Christianity.
Pentecostals can be found within all 150 non-charismatic Christian traditions.
Pentecostals come from 9,000 ethnolinguistic cultures and speak 8,000 languages.
Pentecostalism is more urban than rural, more female than male, more majority world (66%) than Western world (34%), more poor (87%) than affluent (13%), more family-related than individualist, and more young than old.
Pentecostals are an active presence in 80% of the world's 3,300 largest metropolises.

Barrett and Johnson conclude that "the sheer magnitude and diversity of the numbers involved beggar the imagination." Given this kind of international diversity, are there any clues about what Pentecostalism's central mission may be in tomorrow's world?

[CID_0687]

Questions?

[gpd®]

Since you clearly indicate this is a movement that began about 1900, are you saying Pentecostalism is the new replacement for the Church established in the First Century and is the result of new revelation?



New revelation? Yes, if you means that millions were finally able to own and read Bibles and a good chunk of them were finally printed in English.

[Vradic]

Many would argue that the Pentecostals are the original church started, on the Day of Pentecost...and that in the Azusa St. Revival in the early 20th Century the flame was simply rekindled.

But if we're going to use your reasoning then who's to say which is the true church and which isn't..every denomination is going to claim that they are the church as Christ intended it to be...The Catholics seem to have the popular vote on that...The majority of your Protestant denominations came out of the Reformation...was this a new Revelation? I'd say yes.

Revelation means nothing more than God revealing Himself and His will to someone...Did you not have a Revelation when you were saved, did you not have one when God called you into ministry?

God reveals things to each and every one of us daily.
No I have never had a miraculous or special revelation from God. I thought that in the context of my previous post, it would have been understood that I meant (and thought I wrote) NEW revelation. I believe God is revealed to us in his written word, which was already proven in the first century and doesn't need to be proven again by miracles.

While there have been times and circumstances that I think the hand of God was operating in my life, it has never been and I would not expect it to be at such an undeniably obvious level that I would call it miraculous, but rather providential. These have included many instances that could be called "coincidence" but that seemed to work so obviously for the good, that I chose to attribute them to his providence and give him the glory. This includes at least one car wreck that changed the course of my life, and one that kept me from changing the course of my life; both of which were very traumatic but which I now think were gifts from God.

Sometimes things such as the choice of a rarely sung song to lead which was perfectly suited to the lesson the preacher was speaking on, but of which I had no knowledge; or something I said in a Bible study where the wording of my statements as they were spoken ended up carrying even a greater truth than the one I originally intended; but realized only when others commented on it (but all still found in existing scripture).

I do believe in the power of God; obviously for salvation, and yes in our daily lives. I just don't believe that requires his power to be displayed in the same undeniable ways he used when he was giving his NEWLY REVEALED GOSPEL. I do also believe that we should make sure, first and foremost, that we still teach and follow that same Gospel; dependent only on the teachings found in God's written word, and not on any preconceptions I or anyone else may have, or anything we may feel has been "revealed" to us; being especially careful that it is not in conflict with the written word.
Gal 1:6 I am amazed that you are so quickly deserting Him who called you by the grace of Christ, for a different gospel;
Gal 1:7 which is {really} not another; only there are some who are disturbing you and want to distort the gospel of Christ.
Gal 1:8 But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed!
Gal 1:9 As we have said before, so I say again now, if any man is preaching to you a gospel contrary to what you received, he is to be accursed!
Gal 1:10 For am I now seeking the favor of men, or of God? Or am I striving to please men? If I were still trying to please men, I would not be a bond-servant of Christ.
Gal 1:11 For I would have you know, brethren, that the gospel which was preached by me is not according to man.
Gal 1:12 For I neither received it from man, nor was I taught it, but {I received it} through a revelation of Jesus Christ.

[CID_0687]

You would find that Pentecostals, for the most part, do line up with what the word of God teaches, in their doctrine. I say for the most part because there are extremists in every faith, or denomination. And if we don't then as Ray has pointed out, that 600 million people who are being led astray...Would God allow that many people to follow a false doctrine? I think not. Below I am posting the Doctrinal Exegesis from the International Pentecostal Holiness Church, perhaps this will help many of you understand what we believe. Each denomination within Pentecostalism has a different Statement of Faith, but the core values and beliefs are basically the same.

Repentance

Repentance (Gr. metanoia-from meta-with, and noos- mind-something done with the whole mind).

Mind, as thus viewed, embraces the spirit, with particular reference to the conscience and will, and denotes a decision made which changes the desires, views, attitude, purpose, and conduct of one's life. Truth inwardly applied produces conviction for sin; conscience awakened by conviction demands a change; and the will mightily influenced by the conscience in view of the judgment is moved to change the whole life. Metanoia signifies a whole life repentance-a lifetime forsaking of sin, and not a mere momentary act day by day.

Repentance is not "godly sorrow for sin," but "godly sorrow," which is produced by a display of the goodness of God that leads to repentance (Romans 2:4; 2 Corinthians 7:10). Repentance puts the heart in a position to believe.

Faith

Faith is the result of divine persuasion effected by the promises of God. It includes confidence and trust. The promises, "exceeding great and precious," express the faithfulness of God in the heart thus persuaded: confidence is begotten, trust is inspired.

"The promises are yea [established] and amen [fulfilled] in him"-the Christ. He, by them, is the "originator of faith" in the heart (Hebrews 12:2).

Confidence in and reliance [trust] upon Christ, the act of faith following repentance, brings to the heart the realization of the forgiveness of sins. Faith grows by the same process that gives it birth-the promises of God, centered in Christ, and fulfilled by Him. He is the finisher [perfecter] of faith.

Justification

Justification is the act of God, as the infinite Judge, pronouncing the penitent believing soul free from the condemnation of His righteous law. It is preceded by forgiveness and followed by regeneration. Forgiveness removes the guilt of sin; justification lifts the condemnation caused by those sins from the soul. The just God makes the soul just and upholds His just laws. His law is righteous, and the trusting soul being made just is also made righteous by the same act. Both are one. Justification and righteousness come from the same word in the original. The "righteousness of the law is fulfilled in them who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit" (Romans 8:4). Justification opens the way for the heart's regeneration. The penitent believer is rightly related to law and justified by it through faith. The law endorses him because he is in Christ. Forgiveness, justification, and regeneration are not identical, but they all take place at the same time. The three are simultaneously received by the same act of faith.

Regeneration

Regeneration (Gr. polingenesia: polin-again; genesia- generation). This means "to be generated again." Generation is derived from it; also Genesis. We prefix the particle re (which means again) to generation and have regeneration, which means to be "second born" or "reborn." We term this work the "new birth" or "born again." The particle re, as prefixed to generation, has for its antecedent, not the natural birth, but the birth of the first man in Eden. Adam was not created, but generated. The term creation is used to denote the making of man as he came from God, but it was an act of divine generation. "We are his offspring," as said the apostle on Mars' Hill. If we are "the offspring of God," then the first man was His offspring, or "generated son." He lost that birth, and became a son of Satan, the serpent deceiver.

Every human being was potentially generated with Adam and put into the body or materiality as he was. As he fell, all fell in him and with him. All lost this divine birth. All were in the Second Adam-Christ-on the Cross, and in Him were born potentially the second time. That second birth on Calvary is reproduced in us by the Spirit. This is the polingenesia- "second birth"-that Jesus taught Nicodemus (John 3:3) must take place in him. We are made conscious of the "Calvary birth" in the "regeneration," effected by the Holy Spirit.

Pardon and justification make a change in all life's relationships. Regeneration is a change in state; that is, our inner nature. Being dead in sins, we are quickened to life by the impartation of the resurrection life of the glorified Christ. "He is our life," and in regeneration we begin to live in and by Him.

Adoption

Adoption is an act of God the Father, dealing with the "born one" (Gr. huiothesia from huios-sons, thesia-placing-son placing). The Father receives the regenerated one from the hand of His beloved Son, and places him in His heavenly household. Jesus the first-born Son-the Elder Brother-by virtue of the Father's act of adoption, assigned to the newly acknowledged Son His work and service in the heavenly family, or kingdom. Jesus, as the "first begotten from the dead" has the "preeminence among the brethren" (Colossians 1:18), and by the appointment of the Father, has complete control of all the heavenly household; therefore, He gives to each one in the "household" his individual work. The Father, in accepting the "newly born" into His family, "sends forth the Spirit of His first-born Son into the heart of the adopted son" making him a "joint-heir with Christ." The Spirit of the first-born Son put into the heart of the "newly-born" is the witnessing Spirit assuring him of his salvation and sonship.

Sanctification

The derivation of this word, from root to stem in both Hebrew and Greek languages (the original languages in which the Word of God was first written) may help to some extent in the definition of its meaning, but is not sufficient to set forth the vast scope of truth embraced by the word as used in both Old and New Testaments. The historico-ethical revelation of the word as connected with the manifestation of Jehovah to the patriarchs, to Israel, the elect nation, and to and through Jesus Christ in fullness, is the only way by which the full knowledge of the word as to its meaning can be obtained.

Kadesh is the Hebrew word for sanctification and its equivalents. Its verbal stem is derived from the root dash which primarily signifies to "break forth shiningly" (Cremer's Lexicon). The word in the Greek which was used to translate kadesh is hagios. The 70 men appointed from among the Jews to translate the Hebrew Scriptures into the Greek language, known historically as the Septuagint, in B. C. 287, used hagios in translating kadesh into that language.

The first instance of the use of kadesh is in Genesis 2:3: "And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it." The day "broke forth shiningly" in its sanctification.

The word next occurs in Exodus 3:5: "Draw not nigh ... put off thy shoes ... for the place whereon thou standest is holy ground." In the bush of fire "God broke forth shiningly" and His radiance hallowed the ground where Moses stood, making it holy. The holy flame that burned upon the bush and consumed it not was a type and prophecy of God's future manifestation to Israel and His method of dealing with them.

This manifestation was clearer and more abundant in Christ Jesus who was the effulgence of his Father's glory (Hebrews 1:3). It also characterizes the fullness of the work of the Holy Ghost. From the root and stem significance of the Hebrew word kadesh and its equivalent in Greek, we learn by its historic development that holiness ( "that which breaks forth shiningly") is the fundamental essence and perfection of God's being in infinite fullness. He embodies all holiness absolutely. There is none outside and independent of Him. Everything is holy as related to Him. On the basis of, and to the extent of this constituted relationship, we are holy.

We now come to consider holiness in the sphere of relationship. The Hebrew and Greek terms, as defined above in relation to God, take on other shades of meaning in the sphere of divine relationships. As applied to persons and things, it signifies to be solely and completely devoted to a divine service. "Every devoted thing in Israel shall be holy" (see Leviticus 27:28). This devotion is necessarily preceded by a separation from everything in the previous life. This separation covers all sins and sinning, and all inherited sin-the old man-since sin in all forms is of no service to God. The former separation is done in repentance and the latter in crucifixion. This crucifixion is wrought in the heart of the one who is alive to God; that is, the regenerated. Separation from all the former life, inward and outward, places us in the position to be forever devoted to God.

The original word signifies divine appropriation as a result of the act of devotion. This appropriation makes us holy. Then begins the "breaking forth shiningly" of the sanctification of the divine Being wrought within us. We become luminaries in the world. The holiness of God shines in us to the degree of our relationship to Him.

[CID_0687]

Continued from previous post

Pentecost

Pentecost (Gr. pentecoste-fiftieth day) has for its antecedent the "Feast of Weeks," called also the "Feast of Harvest," one of the seven feasts that Israel was commanded by the Lord to observe annually. There are three feasts to be observed in the beginning of the spring season: Passover, Unleavened Bread, and the Feast of First-Fruits. Following the night of the Passover Feast, they began to observe the Feast of Unleavened Bread which lasted one week. During this week the Feast of First-Fruits was held, which lasted but one day, or a part of a day. That day was the "morrow after the Sabbath" of the Unleavened Bread Feast, corresponding to our Sunday. From that Sabbath of the Feast of Unleavened Bread, Israel was commanded to number seven Sabbaths (which would make the seventh Sabbath the forty-ninth day), and on the morrow after the seventh Sabbath, Israel was commanded to observe the Feast of Weeks, or Feast of Harvest, which would be a feast on the fiftieth day.

Hence, from the Feast of the First-Fruits to the Feast of Weeks, fifty days intervened. The Feast of Weeks or Harvest was also a First-Fruit Feast-the second-so that between the two was a period of fifty days. The first of these feasts pointed to the resurrection of Christ and the second to the outpouring of the Holy Ghost, as in Acts 2. Christ died on the day the Passover was killed and was raised from the dead on the day of the offering of the sheaf of the first-fruits. He continued on the earth forty days, and then, ascended to heaven.

The apostles, by Christ's command, returned from the Mount of Olives where they saw the Christ depart from earth, and in the upper room with over one hundred other believers, began tarrying for the fulfillment of the "promise of the Father" which the Christ assured them would be given "not many days hence." They sought and waited ten days. The tenth day was the fiftieth day after the resurrection of the Christ. On that day the old Feast of Harvest was observed. And at the hour that the Priest offered the two loaves "according to the law," the Holy Ghost fell upon the upper room waiters, "and they were all filled with the Holy Spirit."

Pentecoste was the Greek name for the Jewish Feast of Weeks, or Harvest, held on the fiftieth day. The last letter of the original word was dropped and so we have our word pentecost. The original pentecoste literally means, fiftieth, as a number. "And when the day of Pentecost [pentecoste] was fully come" (Acts 2:1), the Holy Spirit was given in fullness to the 120 in the Jerusalem "upper room."

Pentecost now refers to the baptism of the Holy Spirit and not to any special day. His coming was the beginning of the indwelling of God the Father, Son, and Spirit in the hearts of believers and in the New Testament Church.

God (Hebrew Elohim) as a name signifies uni-plurality-the unity of more than one personality. The Trinity (tri-unity) is implied in the name. However, we say God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit. Not three Gods, but one God with three personalities, co-existing in unity.

The coming of God the Holy Spirit to dwell in believers meant the coming of God the Son and God the Father, at the same time. Pentecost is the indwelling of the adorable Trinity in individual believers and in the Church of the New Testament dispensation. This is the great distinguishing feature of the pentecostal baptism of the Holy Ghost. The Comforter was given to dwell in the hearts of the crucified-fully cleansed- believers. "And ye are clean-cleansed every whit-but not all" (John 13:10). The statement "not all," referred to Judas the betrayer, "Now ye are clean [cleansed, purified] through the word which I have spoken to you" (John 15:3). These statements were made before the Day of Pentecost. The washing of the disciples' feet was a symbol of the inner cleansing of their hearts, and the statement "ye are clean every whit" was made at that time and place.

The "upper room" company, while tarrying ten days for the "enduement from on high," was continuously "praising and blessing God." This is a fine specimen of a genuine holiness meeting. "They were all with one accord in one place" during the ten days' waiting, which gave evidence of heart purity as a preparation for the pentecostal baptism.

Divine Healing

Divine healing, as we teach and believe, is altogether a product of the atoning merit of Christ's sacrifice on the cross. "Himself took our infirmities, and bare our sicknesses" (Matthew 8:17), and "with his stripes we are healed" (Isaiah 53:5). This healing is wrought solely by the application of the atonement to the body, through faith alone. The Holy Spirit applies the efficacy of the blood of healing to the sick and afflicted body, or parts, which in fact, is the impartation of the resurrected life of the glorified Christ. This is direct divine healing, effected by the divine Being in response to faith alone.

The law of recovery is written in all creation, and also in our bodies, since they are an essential part of creation. This law operates according to its relation to the infinite law of all creation as upheld and directed by the Creator. Healing is a part of the benefits flowing out of this law of recovery, and it may be termed the healing of natural law.

The earth is under the curse of the violation of the Edenic Covenant by the sin of the first man, "As lord over all the works of God's hands." And this curse has caused a thousand disturbances in the movement of natural law. An abnormal condition prevails, largely throughout this mundane sphere. These abnormal disturbances force the law of creation as related to earth, to work destruction in the natural. They interfere with the operation of the law of recovery so that complete restoration is rarely ever fully attained. Physicians depend upon this law of recovery to restore health, and as far as they know this law, they endeavor to have the patient adjusted to its operation. Remedial agencies can be beneficial only insofar as they assist in making this law of recovery normal in its operation.

It may be that the Holy Spirit, at times, elevates and accelerates this law of recovery so that it is made, thereby, a channel of healing. If so, this is an act of divine healing, but not on an equality with the healing of Calvary's sacrifice. Natural means viewed as a product of the law of recovery are not to be despised. Neither are we to look upon their use as sinful on the part of believers in Christ. The healing of Calvary's stream is the "better way," and the way to secure complete and permanent healing of all sickness and diseases.

Coming of the Lord

The word millennium is the name for the Latin numeral 1,000. The Greek is kiliad or chiliad, as it is more frequently spelled in English. Both are used in the discussion of the coming reign of Christ. His coming is premillennial, as we teach. "Pre " means before, and His coming will be before the millennium shall begin. We mean His coming "with all the saints " will be the event that shall inaugurate the millennial (one thousand years) reign of Christ on earth.

That period will be preliminary and preparatory in purpose. It is preliminary to the final and absolute regeneration of all that belongs to this mundane creation. It is preparatory to the reign of Christ as it will subjugate absolutely everything to the will of the Father, by destroying all enmities, animosities, and every possible degree of rebellion against the royal will of God. When this is done, the eternity of the kingdom will be fully inaugurated. Ineffable glories, surpassing all finite conception, will fill the earth as the waters cover the sea.

All the saints look for, long for, and pray for the coming of Christ, as that which is "nigh at hand." A thousand signs and events proclaim and signify the immediate end of this present age. The Great Tribulation shadows are visible now on the earth, and the first event of the Second Advent program may occur at any moment. Amen. Even so, come Lord Jesus.

[CID_0687]

Continued...

Resurrection

Resurrection (Gr. [1] anastasis, from ana-again, and stasis-to stand up again; [2] egerio, to raise up) means to raise up anything, such as (a) a building, (b) a savior, (c) to awaken from sleep.

Resurrection is the "standing up again" of that which has fallen-that bringing to life that which has fallen to death. That which went down in death is raised up again to life.

The resurrection of Christ is both a proof and example of the resurrection. He had a real material human body, the same as all other human beings on earth. "He was born of a [mortal] woman," who descended from David the king, through his son Nathan, a full brother of Solomon; therefore, He was born of the "seed of David according to the flesh"; also of the "seed of Abraham," and the "seed of Adam," through whom "death passed upon all the human race." All the seed of Adam proceeded from him after he had fallen in sin, under death.

Therefore Christ lived in a mortal body subject to suffering and death. He died "under sin"- "unto sin"-an atoning death for sin in the body, and this being "finished," He "dropped out" of the mortal body on the cross. The same body that hung on the cross was laid in the tomb, and the same body that lay in the tomb was the body that came forth in the resurrection "on the third day." Thus, His resurrection is proof of our resurrection. His being raised from the dead is infallible proof of resurrection as a fact. The manner of His coming forth illustrates the way the saints shall come forth. The same body that each one left in death will be the same that shall be raised, and all will "enter their own body" as Christ did His.

Rewards

Existence is eternal. Things existing can never cease to exist. Change of form and places may occur, but this is not annihilation. Eternal existence is not identical with immortality. The latter is a condition of the former, and commensurate with it. "[Christ] only hath immortality, dwelling in light which no man can approach unto" (1 Timothy 6:16). "[He is] the resurrection, and the [immortal] life" (John 11:25).

Believers are to seek, by well doing, "glory and honor and immortality" (which is, "eternal life," or the "life of the ages of the ages"). They are not to seek eternal existence, as that is already a fact, since we can never cease to be. But they are to "seek for glory, honor and immortality," as Christ alone "hath immortality," which is synonymous with the eternity of life in "the ages of the ages" to come.

The unconditionally lost in the ages of the ages to come will exist in a state of everlasting death, which can have no end. They shall have "shame and everlasting contempt" (Daniel 12:2), but not "life and immortality," as that marks the state of the glorified saints in heaven, "unto the ages of the ages." At the great judgment to come, the wicked depart into everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels (the "lake of fire" which is the "second death"), but the righteous enter into "life eternal" or infinite immortality in the glory in which the eternal God dwells into all eternities. -Written by Bishop J. H. King (1945)

[RayMan]

Thanks CID. Very informative.

[CID_0687]

In case you didn't notice...I didn't use Wiki either.

[Semi-Sweet]

You two are really 'gettin' your Pentecost on'. :D

[RayMan]

You two are really 'gettin' your Pentecost on'. :D

Yep. :D

[CID_0687]

You two are really 'gettin' your Pentecost on'. :D
We ought to be dancin' like David in no time.

Who's in the mood for a Jericho march?

[RayMan]

We ought to be dancin' like David in no time.

Who's in the mood for a Jericho march?

Ping IDMB, she loves her some Jericho March.

That reminds me. We need to collaborate on a post defining Pentecostal slang and buzz words. How many LDS do you think comprehend the term "falling out" for example? How many Catholics are familiar with the phrase "Holy Ghost blow-out?"

[hillplus]

Ping IDMB, she loves her some Jericho March.

That reminds me. We need to collaborate on a post defining Pentecostal slang and buzz words. How many LDS do you think comprehend the term "falling out" for example? How many Catholics are familiar with the phrase "Holy Ghost blow-out?"

Ya, you do!

[CID_0687]

Ping IDMB, she loves her some Jericho March.

That reminds me. We need to collaborate on a post defining Pentecostal slang and buzz words. How many LDS do you think comprehend the term "falling out" for example? How many Catholics are familiar with the phrase "Holy Ghost blow-out?"
Holy Ghost blowout? You mean like these folks appear to be having...by the way this is our local megachurch...Some wouldn't call it that, but for this part of the woods it is...went from 20 people in 2000 to now 3500...awesome place to worship.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CxmdjLfvRlU

[RayMan]

Holy Ghost blowout? You mean like these folks appear to be having...by the way this is our local megachurch...Some wouldn't call it that, but for this part of the woods it is...went from 20 people in 2000 to now 3500...awesome place to worship.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CxmdjLfvRlU

Very cool but not really what I was thinking of. Let's do some brainstorming behind the scenes the next day or two and keep notes. People will wonder what we're up to...:D

[CID_0687]

Very cool but not really what I was thinking of. Let's do some brainstormind behind the scenes the next day or two and keep notes. People will wonder what we're up to...:D
Gotcha...gimme time to clean out my PM box.

[RayMan]

Gotcha...gimme time to clean out my PM box.

No worries. Building a linux server. Actually calls for some use of the gray matter.

[CID_0687]

Gray matter is seriously overrated. My goal is to turn mine into mush...but that's a topic for another thread.

[RayMan]

Using mash to create mush. What a concept. (the Yankees reading this have not a clue.)

[CID_0687]

Using mash to create mush. What a concept. (the Yankees reading this have not a clue.)
:lol:

[Koushi Shinigami]

Using mash to create mush. What a concept. (the Yankees reading this have not a clue.)

I do. :razz:

[RayMan]

I do. :razz:

I kind of figured you might. Don't give it away. Let them google it on their own. :silenced:

[gpd®]

Using mash to create mush. What a concept. (the Yankees reading this have not a clue.)

Very famous Little Rascals episode we used to act out when we got served cream of wheat or oatmeal.

[RayMan]

Very famous Little Rascals episode we used to act out when we got served cream of wheat.

Johnny Carson voice:

"I did not know that."

[gpd®]

Johnny Carson voice:

"I did not know that."



"Mush again!"

[gpd®]

In your personal relationship with God/Jesus, does He have a nickname for you or you for Him?

God and I haven't given each other frat type names yet.

[CID_0687]

In your personal relationship with God/Jesus, does He have a nickname for you or you for Him?

God and I haven't given each other frat type names yet.
Ive always called you Jesus you've always called me Sonny...this is Sonny talkin now

Anybody?

[gpd®]

Ive always called you Jesus you've always called me Sonny...this is Sonny talkin now

Anybody?

That's so awesome.

[CID_0687]

That's so awesome.
yeah but can you name the movie I got that from?

[gpd®]

yeah but can you name the movie I got that from?

Did it have to do with Morgan Freeman or George Burns?

[CID_0687]

Did it have to do with Morgan Freeman or George Burns?
Robert Duvall actually

[Meriweather]

Robert Duvall actually

Ha! Then I have it! The Apostle.

[gpd®]

Ha! Then I have it! The Apostle.

Dang it, good one!

[CID_0687]

Ha! Then I have it! The Apostle.
:clap: love that movie

[mgifford]

[QUOTE=gpd®;36693101]I am not speaking for the others, just waiting for questions to be asked. We all know our testimonies and are dying to share them.

Thank you GPD, my friend.

[gpd®]

Thank you GPD, my friend.

Welcome

[mgifford]

Welcome

I know I sound crude and a prude, but after all, you and CID are the only ones who don't ignore me now. LOL! I just don't need more to.

[Meriweather]

CID, I was reading over your Pentecostal doctrine a little bit ago. Regeneration caught my attention. Do Pentecostals use Regeneration instead of the word Redemption, or more in conjunction with redemption?

[gpd®]

I know I sound crude and a prude, but after all, you and CID are the only ones who don't ignore me now. LOL! I just don't need more to.\

Makes sense as to why the ask a Pentecostal thread gets no hits.

[RayMan]

I know I sound crude and a prude, but after all, you and CID are the only ones who don't ignore me now. LOL! I just don't need more to.

Shucks MGIf,
You know I wouldn't ignore you. :hug:

[gpd®]

CID, I was reading over your Pentecostal doctrine a little bit ago. Regeneration caught my attention. Do Pentecostals use Regeneration instead of the word Redemption, or more in conjunction with redemption?

If I may. To me, Regeneration is post Redemption.

In the OT, God dressed Himself or wrapped Himself in Gideon in order to defeat the enemy with only 300 men.

As a NT believer, we dress our selves in Jesus (regeneration). We take off the old man and put on the new. We put on the armor of God to proclaim victory over the enemy.

This is more for an openly maturing Christian after the Redemption has taken place so that we could redeem souls for Kingdom.

We studied that the 2 events are tied to each other. God did it to show us how we should do it. It is a war out there!

[mgifford]

Shucks MGIf,
You know I wouldn't ignore you. :hug:

Oh, I don't mind Ray, I am sort of a SAWB at times. However, over the years when trouble comes, a lot of folks want me there or at least to advise them, because they know that I'm no different today than I was 20 years ago..

A pastor I doubt I could never be, but a friend and "defender of the faith", I am.

[RayMan]

Oh, I don't mind Ray, I am sort of a SAWB at times. However, over the years when trouble comes, a lot of folks want me there or at least to advise them, because they know that I'm no different today than I was 20 years ago..

A pastor I doubt I could ever be, but a friend and "defender of the faith", I am.

Who could ask for more than that? :D

[Meriweather]

If I may. To me, Regeneration is post Redemption.

In the OT, God dressed Himself or wrapped Himself in Gideon in order to defeat the enemy with only 300 men.

As a NT believer, we dress our selves in Jesus (regeneration). We take off the old man and put on the new. We put on the armor of God to proclaim victory over the enemy.

This is more for an openly maturing Christian after the Redemption has taken place so that we could redeem souls for Kingdom.

We studied that the 2 events are tied to each other. God did it to show us how we should do it. It is a war out there!


So regeneration is what happens to one after, or upon, redemption.

Thank you.

[CID_0687]

I know I sound crude and a prude, but after all, you and CID are the only ones who don't ignore me now. LOL! I just don't need more to.
Whos ignoring you mgif?

[RayMan]

CID, I was reading over your Pentecostal doctrine a little bit ago. Regeneration caught my attention. Do Pentecostals use Regeneration instead of the word Redemption, or more in conjunction with redemption?

Hey Meri,
I view it this way. Which is one of the beautiful things about Pentecostalism, we have an absolute freedom to say "this is how I see it." But I digress. Big surprise, eh?

Back to my point. This is bare bones but I would be happy to expound in greater detail if anyone is interested. I am making this first person but that doesn't mean I am cutting anyone else out of the same blessing.

Redemption is what Jesus accomplished for me by shedding His blood.
Eph 1: 7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

Regeneration is what I have recieved by the power of the Spirit.
Titus 2: 4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared, 5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

The first is cause. The second is personal effect. Jesus provided my redemption even before He physically went to the cross as the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world, I received the virtue of that redemption and was regenerated in spirit more than thirty years ago when I turned to Him in faith.

[CID_0687]

Hey Meri,
I view it this way. Which is one of the beautiful things about Pentecostalism, we have an absolute freedom to say "this is how I see it." But I digress. Big surprise, eh?

Back to my point. This is bare bones but I would be happy to expound in greater detail if anyone is interested. I am making this first person but that doesn't mean I am cutting anyone else out of the same blessing.

Redemption is what Jesus accomplished for me by shedding His blood.
Eph 1: 7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

Regeneration is what I have recieved by the power of the Spirit.
Titus 2: 4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared, 5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

The first is cause. The second is personal effect. Jesus provided my redemption even before He physically went to the cross as the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world, I received the virtue of that redemption and was regenerated in spirit more than thirty years ago when I turned to Him in faith.
8 years ago for me...

I'm CID and I approve this message.

[gpd®]

So regeneration is what happens to one after, or upon, redemption.

Thank you.

Ray said it before I could. Had to step out to get supper. Redemption is descriptive of Jesus' ministry of reconciliation.

He reconciled us to God with His sacrafice.

Regeneration is what happens to my person when the Holy Spirit comes over me.

Sometimes at our request, sometimes when God's requires it.

[Meriweather]

Hey Meri,
I view it this way. Which is one of the beautiful things about Pentecostalism, we have an absolute freedom to say "this is how I see it." But I digress. Big surprise, eh?

Back to my point. This is bare bones but I would be happy to expound in greater detail if anyone is interested. I am making this first person but that doesn't mean I am cutting anyone else out of the same blessing.

Redemption is what Jesus accomplished for me by shedding His blood.
Eph 1: 7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

Regeneration is what I have recieved by the power of the Spirit.
Titus 2: 4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared, 5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

The first is cause. The second is personal effect. Jesus provided my redemption even before He physically went to the cross as the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world, I received the virtue of that redemption and was regenerated in spirit more than thirty years ago when I turned to Him in faith.

Would you say Redemption/Regeneration is more Oneness or more Trinity?

I do have a bit of a grasp on what you are saying, but it slips away when I begin trying to separate the two out. Why the Redemptive act if we could be renewed by Regeneration?

Remember, I'm used to thinking in terms that a redemptive act redeemed (not regenerated) my life.

[gpd®]

Would you say Redemption/Regeneration is more Oneness or more Trinity?

I do have a bit of a grasp on what you are saying, but it slips away when I begin trying to separate the two out. Why the Redemptive act if we could be renewed by Regeneration?

Remember, I'm used to thinking in terms that a redemptive act redeemed (not regenerated) my life.

An extreme example of regeneration:

Hi, my name is Dave, I am a drug addict and I have been sober for 20 years.

Hi, my name is Dave, and by the power of the Jesus I am no longer a drug addict and have been delivered for 20 years.

Guess which statement is from the regenerated person.

[Meriweather]

An extreme example of regeneration:

Hi, my name is Dave, I am a drug addict and I have been sober for 20 years.

Hi, my name is Dave, and by the power of the Jesus I am no longer a drug addict and have been delivered for 20 years.

Guess which statement is from the regenerated person.


In meditating over the Stations of the Cross, Catholics pray, "By thy holy Cross, you have redeemed the world."

In your above examples I can identify the second person as Pentecostal. However, didn't the Cross do much in the setting up of hospitals and the care of the sick and those in need? While the first person may have never heard much about Jesus, didn't the fact that Jesus died start the redemption of our world, where any drug addict--Pentecostal or not--can receive the help he needs?

I am not down playing what the Cross has done for individuals--just reflecting on a prayer I've known throughout my life--that Jesus redeemed the world, not just me, the individual.

[gpd®]

In meditating over the Stations of the Cross, Catholics pray, "By thy holy Cross, you have redeemed the world."

In your above examples I can identify the second person as Pentecostal. However, didn't the Cross do much in the setting up of hospitals and the care of the sick and those in need? While the first person may have never heard much about Jesus, didn't the fact that Jesus died start the redemption of our world, where any drug addict--Pentecostal or not--can receive the help he needs?

I am not down playing what the Cross has done for individuals--just reflecting on a prayer I've known throughout my life--that Jesus redeemed the world, not just me, the individual.

The first person is part of a 12 step program and knows about God and or Jesus and His redemptive plan. He just hasn't experienced the Holy Spirit and His regenerative plan.

Needless to say, I've been to many 12 step meetings at Pentecostal churches. It is easy to tell who has been saved and redeemed and who has gone further and been regenerated.

For us, regeneration is another step in our maturity. Redemption is not the goal, it is only the beginning of one's walk.

[CID_0687]

In meditating over the Stations of the Cross, Catholics pray, "By thy holy Cross, you have redeemed the world."

In your above examples I can identify the second person as Pentecostal. However, didn't the Cross do much in the setting up of hospitals and the care of the sick and those in need? While the first person may have never heard much about Jesus, didn't the fact that Jesus died start the redemption of our world, where any drug addict--Pentecostal or not--can receive the help he needs?

I am not down playing what the Cross has done for individuals--just reflecting on a prayer I've known throughout my life--that Jesus redeemed the world, not just me, the individual.
"By the cross you have redeemed the world"

I would add to that

"And because of this I have been regenerated."

Regeneration down to the bare bones...for me...is the same as the term "born again"

[gpd®]

"By the cross you have redeemed the world"

I would add to that

"And because of this I have been regenerated."

Regeneration down to the bare bones...for me...is the same as the term "born again"

You said it, I didn't. I tried to explain without using those words.

But it is what it is huh?

[CID_0687]

You said it, I didn't. I tried to explain without using those words.

But it is what it is huh?
Well, I know it sounds more gooder to say regeneration, and we Pentecostals understand that...but those who don't believe as we do, or don't believe at all have heard that other phrase, which I will not repeat.

[gpd®]

Well, I know it sounds more gooder to say regeneration, and we Pentecostals understand that...but those who don't believe as we do, or don't believe at all have heard that other phrase, which I will not repeat.



The words which will not be spoken...kinda like when Jon Gibson refuses to say Keith Oberman.

[CID_0687]

The words which will not be spoken...kinda like when Jon Gibson refuses to say Keith Oberman.
:lol:

[Meriweather]

Well, I know it sounds more gooder to say regeneration, and we Pentecostals understand that...but those who don't believe as we do, or don't believe at all have heard that other phrase, which I will not repeat.

Pentecostals are regenerated rather than (that other phrase)?

CID, I just noticed your post count. I joined Hannity over two years prior to when you did. While I did delete over a thousand of my posts, how are you so close to doubling me?

[CID_0687]

Pentecostals are regenerated rather than (that other phrase)?

CID, I just noticed your post count. I joined Hannity over two years prior to when you did. While I did delete over a thousand of my posts, how are you so close to doubling me?
The two terms are interchangeable...

The thing is Meri...I never do anything halfway...I'm on a mission, and I will not be defeated.

Plus I'm easily addicted to things. :redface:

[gpd®]

Pentecostals are regenerated rather than (that other phrase)?

CID, I just noticed your post count. I joined Hannity over two years prior to when you did. While I did delete over a thousand of my posts, how are you so close to doubling me?

Born Again has become so obtuse. Regeneration is a more of a precise derivative to explain the experience.

[CID_0687]

Born Again has become so obtuse. Regeneration is a more of a precise derivative to explain the experience.
:silenced:

[gpd®]

:silenced:


Ouch. I just meant the phrase has been dulled by so much incorrect and abusive useage.

What did brother Swaggart say, Lord Forgive Me for I have Sinned Against You.

[CID_0687]

Ouch. I just meant the phrase has been dulled by so much incorrect and abusive useage.

What did brother Swaggart say, Lord Forgive Me for I have Sinned Against You.
That's about right.

Brother Swaggart...Awesome preacher...lousy liar.

[gpd®]

That's about right.

Brother Swaggart...Awesome preacher...lousy liar.

His son has turned into a good preacher. Just bothers me when he preaches against the church in general.

[CID_0687]

His son has turned into a good preacher. Just bothers me when he preaches against the church in general.
I don't believe I've heard him preach.

[Meriweather]

The two terms are interchangeable...

The thing is Meri...I never do anything halfway...I'm on a mission, and I will not be defeated.

Plus I'm easily addicted to things. :redface:

You are on a mission? I take it you intend to hit 100,000, plus? I honestly don't know whether to cheer you on or go seek help for you. If you wish, I'll donate my nearly 7,500 posts to you.

[gpd®]

I don't believe I've heard him preach.

Can't miss him. He look like a young Jimmy.

[CID_0687]

You are on a mission? I take it you intend to hit 100,000, plus? I honestly don't know whether to cheer you on or go seek help for you. If you wish, I'll donate my nearly 7,500 posts to you.
Won't work...I tried getting Fire Watch to give me all the posts of those who are no longer with us...he refused.

But one has to wonder how he got to 70.000 + :think:

[gpd®]

Won't work...I tried getting Fire Watch to give me all the posts of those who are no longer with us...he refused.

But one has to wonder how he got to 70.000 + :think:

60,000 one word posts.

[Meriweather]

Won't work...I tried getting Fire Watch to give me all the posts of those who are no longer with us...he refused.

But one has to wonder how he got to 70.000 + :think:

I, however, am still with us. These things have to be done properly. Fire Watch cannot give you anything that is not his to give. He is not a tyrant taking from those not here to defend their posts.

Here is how you do it. You go to Fire Watch and say, "Meri is willing to have you delete all her posts so that she can give them to me."

The news "Meri is willing to have you delete her posts" will put him into such great shock that he just might go ahead and do it before he snaps out of it.

[CID_0687]

I, however, am still with us. These things have to be done properly. Fire Watch cannot give you anything that is not his to give. He is not a tyrant taking from those not here to defend their posts.

Here is how you do it. You go to Fire Watch and say, "Meri is willing to have you delete all her posts so that she can give them to me."

The news "Meri is willing to have you delete her posts" will put him into such great shock that he just might go ahead and do it before he snaps out of it.
:))

[RayMan]

Would you say Redemption/Regeneration is more Oneness or more Trinity?

I do have a bit of a grasp on what you are saying, but it slips away when I begin trying to separate the two out. Why the Redemptive act if we could be renewed by Regeneration?

Remember, I'm used to thinking in terms that a redemptive act redeemed (not regenerated) my life.

We could not be regenerated until the price for our redemption, His precious blood shed, had been paid.

Acts 20:28"Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God, which he purchased with his own blood."

Redemption was accomplished on my behalf before I ever knew God.

Regeneration is the result of my receiving the redemption God has made available to me through the shed blood of Christ.

Redemption is new life. The life of the creature is in the blood and I have become a new creature in Christ through the power of His blood poured out on my behalf.

I don't believe the question of Oneness or Trinity intrudes into salvation in any way.

[outfromunder]

Im not even anywhere close to being a "Bapticostal" but sometimes Ill raise my hand during a worship song and no higher than my shoulder...

Just saying that even us stuffy SBC's can sometimes be moved...

[RayMan]

That's about right.

Brother Swaggart...Awesome preacher...lousy liar.

It's a plus when Preachers can't lie worth a darn.

[RayMan]

His son has turned into a good preacher. Just bothers me when he preaches against the church in general.

Yeah. He picked that up from his Daddy. It's a shame. There is so much positive to preach about Jesus. Why spend all your time preaching against mere humans who are doing their best for the most part?

[CID_0687]

Im not even anywhere close to being a "Bapticostal" but sometimes Ill raise my hand during a worship song and no higher than my shoulder...

Just saying that even us stuffy SBC's can sometimes be moved...
Oh yeah, definitely. The SBC church we were going to for a few months was really into Praise and Worship...folks raising their hands and clapping. Never saw one dance though...

[CID_0687]

It's a plus when Preachers can't lie worth a darn.
Verily.

[RayMan]

Im not even anywhere close to being a "Bapticostal" but sometimes Ill raise my hand during a worship song and no higher than my shoulder...

Just saying that even us stuffy SBC's can sometimes be moved...

Hey, that's progress bro. Back in 1979 some folk in our SB Church in Pinole, CA complained to the pastor because my hands were raised up even with the back of the pew in front of me. :D

It's a beautiful sign of submission and worship to raise our hands unto the Lord and no one should be subjected to criticism if the elevation is to their waist, their shoulders or lifted high above their head.

[RayMan]

Won't work...I tried getting Fire Watch to give me all the posts of those who are no longer with us...he refused.

But one has to wonder how he got to 70.000 + :think:

Keep in mind he gets 365 posts a year from typing "yo" in the Lodge every morning.

[CID_0687]

Keep in mind he gets 365 posts a year from typing "yo" in the Lodge every morning.
As do I with "Greetings and Salutations"

[RayMan]

As do I with "Greetings and Salutations"


As opposed to my signature greeting: "Hey."

[CID_0687]

As opposed to my signature greeting: "Hey."
You know me...I tend to think outside the box quite often.

[RayMan]

You know me...I tend to think outside the box quite often.


Dude,
You can't even FIND the box. It's one of your most endearing qualities.

I totally believe God can use folk who don't give a rip for the status quo.

[CID_0687]

Dude,
You can't even FIND the box. It's one of your most endearing qualities.

I totally believe God can use folk who don't give a rip for the status quo.
I take the Bible literally...therefore I believe that we are a Peculiar people.

[outfromunder]

Hey, that's progress bro. Back in 1979 some folk in our SB Church in Pinole, CA complained to the pastor because my hands were raised up even with the back of the pew in front of me. :D

It's a beautiful sign of submission and worship to raise our hands unto the Lord and no one should be subjected to criticism if the elevation is to their waist, their shoulders or lifted high above their head.

Well I was raised in one of those stuff ultra traditional churches...So much so that I may never take my hands from my pockets now, I still in spirit raise my hands and thats as holy roller as Ill get.
You just have to use your imagination to see it...

I used to get so bothered by others raising their hands and horror of horrors, even dancing in the aisles. Not now. But then.

[RayMan]

Well I was raised in one of those stuff ultra traditional churches...So much so that I may never take my hands from my pockets now, I still in spirit raise my hands and thats as holy roller as Ill get.
You just have to use your imagination to see it...

I used to get so bothered by others raising their hands and horror of horrors, even dancing in the aisles. Not now. But then.

Very cool. I think we tend to believe that the "fanatic" is the person who is a little more demonstrative in their worship than we are. How much better to just be free and let everyone worship God in the manner in which they are comfortable to do so.

[CID_0687]

Very cool. I think we tend to believe that the "fanatic" is the person who is a little more demonstrative in their worship than we are. How much better to just be free and let everyone worship God in the manner in which they are comfortable to do so.
Would you believe that the church I was saved in, Liberty Full Gospel Missionary International Spirit Filled House of Prayer Church, (I think I got it all in there) actually escorted someone to the door once for the way he was worshipping.

Now, I'll admit it was kinda weird...the guy started dancing...ok...then he started shaking...ok...then he started doing this contortionist stuff with one leg around his shoulder and spinning in the floor...that's when they decided it was time for him to go.

[outfromunder]

Would you believe that the church I was saved in, Liberty Full Gospel Missionary International Spirit Filled House of Prayer Church, (I think I got it all in there) actually escorted someone to the door once for the way he was worshipping.

Now, I'll admit it was kinda weird...the guy started dancing...ok...then he started shaking...ok...then he started doing this contortionist stuff with one leg around his shoulder and spinning in the floor...that's when they decided it was time for him to go.

Break dancing? :lol:

[outfromunder]

Several years ago, my church's youth group sponsored an Audio Adrenalyne concert in our new worship center. I was one of the camera men working that night.
A blast and a half: One of our more fun times...

We (looking around furtively)






had (shhhh)









a (giggle)












MOSHPIT!

[CID_0687]

Break dancing? :lol:
:lol:

No, I think that would have been acceptable...this was unlike anything I've ever witnessed before.

We all just kind of stood there in amazement...Never saw the guy again so never got to know if he was for real or not.