Ask A Pentecostal

[CID_0687]

Only good things.
So thou sayest....


I'm soo gonna get it tomorrow

[vir doctus]

They haven't been hostile at all, but very patient.

I don't know, they called a fight but won't let the Catholic-lite side with you.

Chickens.

[Meriweather]

So thou sayest....


I'm soo gonna get it tomorrow


:mrgreen:

[Meriweather]

I don't know, they called a fight but won't let the Catholic-lite side with you.

Chickens.

Now I'll be wondering if this is a cat fight or a rooster fight. (Had to do a filter bypass on that one.)

[CID_0687]

**** fights are perfectly legal now in Hannityland...

Hey!! When did they put the filter back on!!

[Meriweather]

**** fights are perfectly legal now in Hannityland...

Hey!! When did they put the filter back on!!


I think we would have been fine if we had spelled it correctly in the first place (as one word). Cockfight. It's when it stands alone, the filter doesn't like it. Kind of a cocky filter, isn't it?

[RayMan]

Nyet, not out numbered at all--not if it takes five Pentecostals to handle one Catholic. :razz:

"Put 'em up, put 'em up! Which one of you first? I can fight you both together if you want. I can fight you with one paw tied behind my back. I can fight you standing on one foot. I can fight you with my eyes closed. Oh, pull an axe on me, eh? Sneaking up on me, eh? Why, I'll... Ruff!"

[Meriweather]

"Put 'em up, put 'em up! Which one of you first? I can fight you both together if you want. I can fight you with one paw tied behind my back. I can fight you standing on one foot. I can fight you with my eyes closed. Oh, pull an axe on me, eh? Sneaking up on me, eh? Why, I'll... Ruff!"

Cat fight it is then! I love it when you purr, RayMan. :hug:

[vir doctus]

"Put 'em up, put 'em up! Which one of you first? I can fight you both together if you want. I can fight you with one paw tied behind my back. I can fight you standing on one foot. I can fight you with my eyes closed. Oh, pull an axe on me, eh? Sneaking up on me, eh? Why, I'll... Ruff!"

Down Snags.

[Meriweather]

Before I say goodnight, I have to do something to re-rail this thread. While I haven't yet been able to find the service you told me about last week, I noticed they did have this past Sunday's sermon up. I haven't watched it yet, but I like the theme: Find Your Life by Losing It.

I'm betting we can all find examples of that from our own lives.

[CID_0687]

Second page??!!

No sir, Pentecostals never play second fiddle...:snooty:

Look fellas, and ladies...just cause I'm not here during the day anymore we can't be on the second page!!

someone have a question for a Pentecostal?

There are many of us here, and happy to oblige. :D

[RayMan]

Second page??!!

No sir, Pentecostals never play second fiddle...:snooty:

Look fellas, and ladies...just cause I'm not here during the day anymore we can't be on the second page!!

someone have a question for a Pentecostal?

There are many of us here, and happy to oblige. :D

No more hanging out on the wrong side of the tracks. Listen to CID. He knows what he's talking about.

[RayMan]

You should have stuck with 'miserable, rotten sinner..." :cool:

Me or Arch? Or possibly both? :hug:

I have no prob with that appellation. Whatever good there is in me has nothing to do with me.

[CID_0687]

No more hanging out on the wrong side of the tracks. Listen to CID. He knows what he's talking about.
I'm CID and I approve this message

[CID_0687]

Me or Arch? Or possibly both? :hug:

I have no prob with that appellation. Whatever good there is in me has nothing to do with me.
Ain't it da troof??!!

Not you Ray, I mean this towards me

[RayMan]

It does make one wonder: If a Catholic is in a Pentecostal thread, is the thread Catholic, or is it Pentecostal? Archangelo may need to settle this point for us.


I think he has withdrawn to his hermitage for the duration.

[RayMan]

Five Pentahostiles against one CatAddict...

O Unity, where art thou?

We now return you to your regularly scheduled program.


Cats are WAY more divisive than tongues.

[Meriweather]

Second page??!!

No sir, Pentecostals never play second fiddle...:snooty:

Look fellas, and ladies...just cause I'm not here during the day anymore we can't be on the second page!!

someone have a question for a Pentecostal?

There are many of us here, and happy to oblige. :D

I had a strange thought earlier today. I wondered what Pentecostals thought about Psalm 23, especially the verse about resting beside quiet waters. Do Pentecostals ever "rest beside quiet waters" or are you always on fire when it comes to your worship services?

Sorry about the thread ending up on page two. When I got home, there was the debate, the debate thread (where I saw you :razz: ), and I had to type up a P.E. test while talking on the phone to husband and daughter. It has been a multi-tasking kind of night. It reminds me that I should read over that test to make sure a debate question didn't get typed in along with all the sports questions.

[RayMan]

Before I say goodnight, I have to do something to re-rail this thread. While I haven't yet been able to find the service you told me about last week, I noticed they did have this past Sunday's sermon up. I haven't watched it yet, but I like the theme: Find Your Life by Losing It.

I'm betting we can all find examples of that from our own lives.

How can you derail a Pentecostal thread? It is an impossibility. The wind listest where it wills and so do we. :hug:

[Meriweather]

How can you derail a Pentecostal thread? It is an impossibility. The wind listest where it wills and so do we. :hug:

Ahhh! I really like that thought! So whenever I derail another thread, I just claim it's the Holy Spirit at work? I really like that excuse.

[RayMan]

Ahhh! I really like that thought! So whenever I derail another thread, I just claim it's the Holy Spirit at work? I really like that excuse.

Just make sure you throw in a modicum of style and grace and never be mean to people.

Take CID for you guide.

[CID_0687]

Just make sure you throw in a modicum of style and grace and never be mean to people.

Take CID for you guide.
Apparently you didn't see me in the "debate therad" :redface:

I should be ashamed of myself....but for some reason I'm not. :lol:

[CID_0687]

I had a strange thought earlier today. I wondered what Pentecostals thought about Psalm 23, especially the verse about resting beside quiet waters. Do Pentecostals ever "rest beside quiet waters" or are you always on fire when it comes to your worship services?

Sorry about the thread ending up on page two. When I got home, there was the debate, the debate thread (where I saw you :razz: ), and I had to type up a P.E. test while talking on the phone to husband and daughter. It has been a multi-tasking kind of night. It reminds me that I should read over that test to make sure a debate question didn't get typed in along with all the sports questions.
Pentecostals definitely rest beside the still waters...There have been many solemn services I've been in...along with many quiet times between me and God.

[RayMan]

Apparently you didn't see me in the "debate therad" :redface:

I should be ashamed of myself....but for some reason I'm not. :lol:

I'm ashamed of you and I haven't even read it yet....:eh:

Just one more thing the blood of Jesus paid the price for.

Me gettin' ticked that is.

[Meriweather]

Pentecostals definitely rest beside the still waters...There have been many solemn services I've been in...along with many quiet times between me and God.

Yes, I did figure that individually you would have your quiet times. I was wondering if quiet times also happened when you gathered together. At first I was thinking you must be exhausted after many of your worship services, but I'm starting to see how they might also be energizing. I noticed while I was watching Sunday's video that I wasn't quite so blown away and astonished by it all.

[CID_0687]

I'm ashamed of you and I haven't even read it yet....:eh:

Just one more thing the blood of Jesus paid the price for.

Me gettin' ticked that is.
I said mean spirited things to liberals.

I should be punished. :))

[Meriweather]

I'm ashamed of you and I haven't even read it yet....:eh:

Just one more thing the blood of Jesus paid the price for.

Me gettin' ticked that is.


I think there was only one post where I was thinking, "DREW! I CANNOT BELIEVE YOU POSTED THAT!" But I checked the name three times, and sure enough, it was.

[CID_0687]

Yes, I did figure that individually you would have your quiet times. I was wondering if quiet times also happened when you gathered together. At first I was thinking you must be exhausted after many of your worship services, but I'm starting to see how they might also be energizing. I noticed while I was watching Sunday's video that I wasn't quite so blown away and astonished by it all.
It all depends on the Spirit.

And I hate to use this analogy, but I can't think of a better one...When you've been in an energized service, more especially if you're in leadership...It can feel like coming down off of speed...you're so pumped and then the anointing leaves and you crash...physically, emotionally, and spiritually...

[RayMan]

I said mean spirited things to liberals.

I should be punished. :))

Mojo is online.

[RayMan]

I think there was only one post where I was thinking, "DREW! I CANNOT BELIEVE YOU POSTED THAT!" But I checked the name three times, and sure enough, it was.

What thread was this? I need to bookmark it for the next time he gives me smack about something I have written.

[Meriweather]

It all depends on the Spirit.

And I hate to use this analogy, but I can't think of a better one...When you've been in an energized service, more especially if you're in leadership...It can feel like coming down off of speed...you're so pumped and then the anointing leaves and you crash...physically, emotionally, and spiritually...


Yes. That would be the hardest part of all about being Pentecostal. In fact, I would say I actively protect myself from all of that, which may not be the best way to deal with the Spirit of the Lord.

[Meriweather]

What thread was this? I need to bookmark it for the next time he gives me smack about something I have written.

It was in the Final Debate thread. It was so bad, that not even I would quote it.

[CID_0687]

Mojo is online.
:eek: Man you are cruel!!

[RayMan]

It all depends on the Spirit.

And I hate to use this analogy, but I can't think of a better one...When you've been in an energized service, more especially if you're in leadership...It can feel like coming down off of speed...you're so pumped and then the anointing leaves and you crash...physically, emotionally, and spiritually...

Yep. But you know people have received blessing from God.

[CID_0687]

It was in the Final Debate thread. It was so bad, that not even I would quote it.
I know Meri...and I apologize...I do not know what came over me.

[CID_0687]

Yep. But you know people have received blessing from God.
True

[Meriweather]

I know Meri...and I apologize...I do not know what came over me.

:hug: No apology needed. There were liberals present.

[CID_0687]

:hug: No apology needed. There were liberals present.
so true

[mgifford]

It does make one wonder: If a Catholic is in a Pentecostal thread, is the thread Catholic, or is it Pentecostal? Archangelo may need to settle this point for us.

Catholics have no trouble recognizing the Holy Spirit, where some religions don't even do that. They spend much prayer praying to the Father Son and Holy Spirit, so He is close to them and many get filled by Him.

[Meriweather]

I was studying 2 Corinthians 1:21-22, and also Ephesians 1:11-13:

But the One who gives us security with you in Christ and who anointed us is God; he has also put his seal upon us and given the Spirit in our hearts as a first installment.

In him we were also chosen destined in accord with the purpose of the One who accomplishes all things according to the intention of his will so that we might exist for the praise of His glory, we who first hoped in Christ. In him you also, who have heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and have believed in him, were sealed with the promised holy Spirt, which is the first installment of our inheritance toward redemption as God's possession to the praise of his glory.

At first I was reflecting on these scriptures because of the Trinity thread, and whether they had been addressed there, but it appears I have about fifteen pages to search through (when I have a little more time) to find out. In both letters Paul specifically names God, Christ, Spirit, but I suppose that part should be for the Trinity thread.

The part that I thought might be interesting to discuss here is that Paul says the Spirit is the first installment of our inheritance toward redemption as God's possession. A first installment means there is a second installment. What do you take this second installment to be? The obvious may be that it means life with God in the hereafter. However, I was thinking, couldn't the second installment be of our inheritance also be pointing to something we receive in this life? Is the second installment of our redemption, something we receive in this life after being sealed with the Holy Spirit, or is it something we receive upon death?

[vir doctus]

The part that I thought might be interesting to discuss here is that Paul says the Spirit is the first installment of our inheritance toward redemption as God's possession. A first installment means there is a second installment. What do you take this second installment to be? The obvious may be that it means life with God in the hereafter. However, I was thinking, couldn't the second installment be of our inheritance also be pointing to something we receive in this life? Is the second installment of our redemption, something we receive in this life after being sealed with the Holy Spirit, or is it something we receive upon death?

Which version says 'installment'?

[RayMan]

Which version says 'installment'?

The "NCV" N.T.
























New Credit Version N.T. :dance:

[RayMan]

Which version says 'installment'?

Vincent's Word Studies:
Earnest
Only here, 2Co_5:5, and Eph_1:14. It means caution-money, deposited by a
purchaser in pledge of full payment.

Eight out of the ten versions I have in E-Sword have "earnest" here.

Weymouth has "pledge" and Int. Standard Version has "down payment."

[Meriweather]

Which version says 'installment'?

Daily Study Bible and New American Bible use installment. New International Version uses deposit; New American Standard uses pledge. Amplified uses deposit and guarantee. King James uses the earnest.

The Greek word used is arrabon wich was the first installment of a payment, paid as a guarantee that the rest was sure to follow. (I'm supposing sort of like earnest money in real estate transactions.)

[MitchM]

I have a question for other Pentecostal's here.

Do you have any reccomendations on any good Study Bibles? I like to get my hand on as many different study notes and commentaries as I can.

So far I've found the Dake bible to be really really good, however the compact edition is just to small and so the large print which I have, is just to big to lug around everywhere.

[RayMan]

New Spirit-Filled Life Bible is a good resource from a Pentecostal/Charismatic perspective.

http://www.christnotes.org/-/_new-spirit-filled-life-bible_0785258809.asp
(http://www.amazon.com/New-Spirit-Filled-Life-Bible-Equipping/dp/0718001486)

[MitchM]

New Spirit-Filled Life Bible is a good resource from a Pentecostal/Charismatic perspective.

http://www.christnotes.org/-/_new-spirit-filled-life-bible_0785258809.asp
(http://www.amazon.com/New-Spirit-Filled-Life-Bible-Equipping/dp/0718001486)

I have one of those, actually I have the older one, based on the KJV! I would like to find a new KJV one though, mine has been used so much the binding and pages are all falling out.

[RayMan]

I have one of those, actually I have the older one, based on the KJV! I would like to find a new KJV one though, mine has been used so much the binding and pages are all falling out.

I don't think they are printing it with the KJV text anymore. You might find one on EBay.

In fact I just found one! Will pm you the link to e-bay.

[RayMan]

Well, that didn't work. Either you are refusing pm's or you inbox overfloweth.

[MitchM]

Well, that didn't work. Either you are refusing pm's or you inbox overfloweth.

I just saw it myself, thanks! I never thought to check ebay.

[RayMan]

I just saw it myself, thanks! I never thought to check ebay.

Cool. I used to never think of e-bay, but my wife and daughter are constantly buying stuff there so it has a bigger footprint in my brain than it used to.

BTW -

I have one of the original SFLB's signed by one of the editors, Dr Roy Hicks.

[MitchM]

Cool. I used to never think of e-bay, but my wife and daughter are constantly buying stuff there so it has a bigger footprint in my brain than it used to.

BTW -

I have one of the original SFLB's signed by one of the editors, Dr Roy Hicks.

Thats cool. I always liked that Bible, as I said, I really like the Dake bible too, but its just so big to take places with me.

And it seems hard to find a study bible that lines up with my Pentecostal/Charismatic beliefs, one of the first things I try to do is go to the book of Acts and see if the authors try to just say the speaking in tongues was something just for those of that day.

I have heard recently about one called the Ryrie bible, but other than online I've not found it in a store to open up and read through it.

[RayMan]

Thats cool. I always liked that Bible, as I said, I really like the Dake bible too, but its just so big to take places with me.

And it seems hard to find a study bible that lines up with my Pentecostal/Charismatic beliefs, one of the first things I try to do is go to the book of Acts and see if the authors try to just say the speaking in tongues was something just for those of that day.

I have heard recently about one called the Ryrie bible, but other than online I've not found it in a store to open up and read through it.

My wife had a Ryrie's when it first came out in 1978 and we were attending a Southern Baptist church. Keep in mind Ryrie's theological background.

---------------------

Brief Description: First published in 1978, the Ryrie Study Bible is the work of noted theologian and former Dallas Theological Seminary professor Dr. Charles Caldwell Ryrie. It is often called the "Scholar's Study Bible," though that is probably somewhat of a stretch. In 1995 or thereabouts an "Expanded Edition" was released with more notes. It is staunchly dispensational, and is quite representative of the position of Dallas Seminary and its founder, Dr. Lewis Sperry Chafer.
http://www.peterlaitres.net/ryrie.htm

Possibly as far away from a Pentecostal perspective as one could find.

[MitchM]

My wife had a Ryrie's when it first came out in 1978 and we were attending a Southern Baptist church. Keep in mind Ryrie's theological background.

---------------------

Brief Description: First published in 1978, the Ryrie Study Bible is the work of noted theologian and former Dallas Theological Seminary professor Dr. Charles Caldwell Ryrie. It is often called the "Scholar's Study Bible," though that is probably somewhat of a stretch. In 1995 or thereabouts an "Expanded Edition" was released with more notes. It is staunchly dispensational, and is quite representative of the position of Dallas Seminary and its founder, Dr. Lewis Sperry Chafer.
http://www.peterlaitres.net/ryrie.htm

Possibly as far away from a Pentecostal perspective as one could find.

Yeah, good point. I never thought to look up about the author. That would tell a lot about the doctrinal notes.

[RayMan]

Yeah, good point. I never thought to look up about the author. That would tell a lot about the doctrinal notes.

Oh yeah. I can remember after the two of us were baptized with the Spirit attending a Pentecostal church. The preacher would be teaching on the gifts of the Spirit from 1 Cor 12-14 and the notes in my wife's Ryrie said the opposite of what was being taught from the pulpit. Didn't take too long before she got rid of the Ryrie's.

Ryrie was very much a cessasionalist.

[MitchM]

Oh yeah. I can remember after the two of us were baptized with the Spirit attending a Pentecostal church. The preacher would be teaching on the gifts of the Spirit from 1 Cor 12-14 and the notes in my wife's Ryrie said the opposite of what was being taught from the pulpit. Didn't take too long before she got rid of the Ryrie's.

Ryrie was very much a cessasionalist.

I'll probably stay clear of that one then.

I'm just always looking for a couple new bibles or study aids to have on my 'wish list' around Christmas time.

[RayMan]

Another Pentecostal Study Bible is this one from Harrison House.
-----------------------


The Word Study Bible is a unique and useful King James Version Bible filled with study helps and special features to give you a firm foundation in God's Word. Special features include:
• More than 4,200 key Scriptures identified by special symbols including topics such as faith, prayer, the Holy Spirit, salvation, praise and worship, prosperity, healing and more!
• Powerful teaching on each of these key topics from authors such as Kenneth E. Hagin, Kenneth Copeland, Charles Capps, Marilyn Hickey, Lester Sumrall, Jerry Savelle, Norvel Hayes, David Ingles, Buddy and Pat Harrison, T.L. Osborn, Frederick K.C. Price and Happy Caldwell.
• Histories of the Charismatic revivals and of those who led them such as Smith Wigglesworth, John G. Lake, Kathryn Kuhlman, Aimee Semple McPherson and others.
• Useful study helps including Keys for New Christians, The Miracles of Christ, The Gifts of the Holy Spirit, How to Study the Bible and more!
• Selected prayers from the bestseller Prayers That Avail Much.
• 31-day devotional and a one-year Bible reading program.
• Topical concordance with more than 4,500 Scriptures
• A 20,000 Scripture reference concordance
• Complete red letter edition King James Version Bible


No link because I don't believe we are supposed to link to commercial sites.

[MitchM]

Another Pentecostal Study Bible is this one from Harrison House.
-----------------------


The Word Study Bible is a unique and useful King James Version Bible filled with study helps and special features to give you a firm foundation in God's Word. Special features include:
• More than 4,200 key Scriptures identified by special symbols including topics such as faith, prayer, the Holy Spirit, salvation, praise and worship, prosperity, healing and more!
• Powerful teaching on each of these key topics from authors such as Kenneth E. Hagin, Kenneth Copeland, Charles Capps, Marilyn Hickey, Lester Sumrall, Jerry Savelle, Norvel Hayes, David Ingles, Buddy and Pat Harrison, T.L. Osborn, Frederick K.C. Price and Happy Caldwell.
• Histories of the Charismatic revivals and of those who led them such as Smith Wigglesworth, John G. Lake, Kathryn Kuhlman, Aimee Semple McPherson and others.
• Useful study helps including Keys for New Christians, The Miracles of Christ, The Gifts of the Holy Spirit, How to Study the Bible and more!
• Selected prayers from the bestseller Prayers That Avail Much.
• 31-day devotional and a one-year Bible reading program.
• Topical concordance with more than 4,500 Scriptures
• A 20,000 Scripture reference concordance
• Complete red letter edition King James Version Bible


No link because I don't believe we are supposed to link to commercial sites.


Yeah I saw that one before. I am almost positive my father has one of them. There really aren't any notes to go along with the scriptures, rather there are just pages of texts from book excerpts etc.

Still, Copeland, Sumrall, Hagin... all good teachers, the Bible just doesn't have the comments in text.

I have the Copeland Reference Bible, and it has a load of study outlines that are great.

[RayMan]

Oh, just remembered the Oral Roberts Bible that came out in 1981. My wife and I were living just outside Tulsa at the time and I got a first edition of it when we made a donation to "city of Faith.". Found it on e-bay just now for a very decent price.
-------------------------------

HOLY BIBLE, with personal commentary by Oral Roberts. King James Version. Genuine leather. Measures 6.5" x 9.5" x 1.5". Front cover engraved "To Mary K. Cahill from Oral Roberts." Excellent condition, stored in original box.

[RayMan]

Yeah I saw that one before. I am almost positive my father has one of them. There really aren't any notes to go along with the scriptures, rather there are just pages of texts from book excerpts etc.

Still, Copeland, Sumrall, Hagin... all good teachers, the Bible just doesn't have the comments in text.

I have the Copeland Reference Bible, and it has a load of study outlines that are great.

I never cared for the way The Word was put together. I can imagine Buddy Harrison calling up some of the authors he published and saying, "hey, mind if I put some of your stuff into this bible we are publishing?"

[mgifford]

I have a question for other Pentecostal's here.

Do you have any reccomendations on any good Study Bibles? I like to get my hand on as many different study notes and commentaries as I can.

So far I've found the Dake bible to be really really good, however the compact edition is just to small and so the large print which I have, is just to big to lug around everywhere.


Get it on CD for your computer. You won't regret it.

[jet]

I'll probably stay clear of that one then.

I'm just always looking for a couple new bibles or study aids to have on my 'wish list' around Christmas time.

Nothing wrong with a well rounded view of scripture :think:

There are many valid reasons why some of us believe tongues, as in "prayer language" ceased to exist once the church was established. I firmly believe the gift of language still exists.....
Ryrie has a very solid, theological background. As does John MacArthur, both "cessationalists" that happen to do a great deal for the kingdom of God.
As does Billy Graham ;)

[MitchM]

Nothing wrong with a well rounded view of scripture :think:

There are many valid reasons why some of us believe tongues, as in "prayer language" ceased to exist once the church was established. I firmly believe the gift of language still exists.....
Ryrie has a very solid, theological background. As does John MacArthur, both "cessationalists" that happen to do a great deal for the kingdom of God.
As does Billy Graham ;)

You act as though just because I don't want a Bible written by someone who denies the baptism of the Holy Ghost as me not wanting to have a well rounded view of scripture.

I find that to be an offensive statement. I simply was saying that since I feel that based on the authors background in theology, I don't want that particular Bible.

That doens't make me wrong or horrible. It simply means that I feel that issue is a very big one, and I believe that issue in itself puts it all up for grabs.

I'm not saying its not appropriate and wonderful for others, if you like it, thats great. I'm just saying its not for me.

[jet]

We're also dealing with a surly Baptist lady, please keep that in mind. :mrgreen:

Yeah, not cool at all. Considering it would be really difficult to discern you being filled with the Holy Spirit or just some spirit :think:

[jet]

You act as though just because I don't want a Bible written by someone who denies the baptism of the Holy Ghost as me not wanting to have a well rounded view of scripture.

I find that to be an offensive statement. I simply was saying that since I feel that based on the authors background in theology, I don't want that particular Bible.

That doens't make me wrong or horrible. It simply means that I feel that issue is a very big one, and I believe that issue in itself puts it all up for grabs.

I'm not saying its not appropriate and wonderful for others, if you like it, thats great. I'm just saying its not for me.

Now now, don't make this personal by accusing me of something I'm not doing. I am sorry you are offended with my statement of a well rounded view of scripture. To me, that's one that takes ALL opinions ;)

I'm sorry you are taking this personally. No offense meant. It's just a discussion on a message board :D

[MitchM]

Now now, don't make this personal by accusing me of something I'm not doing. I am sorry you are offended with my statement of a well rounded view of scripture. To me, that's one that takes ALL opinions ;)

I'm sorry you are taking this personally. No offense meant. It's just a discussion on a message board :D

If you think a person has to read through the study notes in every Bible ever published then thats fine.

However I don't think one needs to do that.

My question if you will go back and read it was about Pentecostal study bibles. I was shown that the Ryrie was not Pentecostal, and as Ray pointed out, pretty opposite from Pentecostal. Thats not something I care much for, not that I can't easily tell where the notes are wrong, but I really would not want my children to pick it up and get a false doctrine.

[mgifford]

You act as though just because I don't want a Bible written by someone who denies the baptism of the Holy Ghost as me not wanting to have a well rounded view of scripture.

I find that to be an offensive statement. I simply was saying that since I feel that based on the authors background in theology, I don't want that particular Bible.

That doens't make me wrong or horrible. It simply means that I feel that issue is a very big one, and I believe that issue in itself puts it all up for grabs.

I'm not saying its not appropriate and wonderful for others, if you like it, thats great. I'm just saying its not for me.

+! It would be very "destructive" of you to buy a Bible of any renown that denies the HS. In college, I used a Schofield and loved it for a while, as a newbie, but as a study Bible for a Pentecostal it just doesn't get it.

[jet]

+! It would be very "destructive" of you to buy a Bible of any renown that denies the HS. In college, I used a Schofield and loved it for a while, as a newbie, but as a study Bible for a Pentecostal it just doesn't get it.

The Ryrie Study bible does not deny the Holy Spirit! To do so would be blasphemy, no? It merely denies the usage of tongues after the apostles. However, as I mentione before, to which no one has refuted, many men have done great things for the Kingdom of God and yet have never spoken in tongues. Are these men not filled with the Holy Spirit? Billy Graham? Francis Schaffer? Franklin Graham? D L Moody??????

[CID_0687]

Yeah, not cool at all. Considering it would be really difficult to discern you being filled with the Holy Spirit or just some spirit :think:
That's easily discernable, for those who can discern....

[MitchM]

The Ryrie Study bible does not deny the Holy Spirit! To do so would be blasphemy, no? It merely denies the usage of tongues after the apostles. However, as I mentione before, to which no one has refuted, many men have done great things for the Kingdom of God and yet have never spoken in tongues. Are these men not filled with the Holy Spirit? Billy Graham? Francis Schaffer? Franklin Graham? D L Moody??????

If they deny the baptism of the Holy Ghost as in Acts; then yes, they are not totally filled with the Holy Spirit. They have a portion of Him, but they have not been immersed into Him.

[RayMan]

Nothing wrong with a well rounded view of scripture :think:

There are many valid reasons why some of us believe tongues, as in "prayer language" ceased to exist once the church was established. I firmly believe the gift of language still exists.....
Ryrie has a very solid, theological background. As does John MacArthur, both "cessationalists" that happen to do a great deal for the kingdom of God.
As does Billy Graham ;)

Billy ain't anti-tongues.

[jet]

Billy ain't anti-tongues.

But he himself has never done it....that's my point. Yet it's obvious he is filled with the Holy Spirit!!!

[mgifford]

The Ryrie Study bible does not deny the Holy Spirit! To do so would be blasphemy, no? It merely denies the usage of tongues after the apostles. However, as I mentione before, to which no one has refuted, many men have done great things for the Kingdom of God and yet have never spoken in tongues. Are these men not filled with the Holy Spirit? Billy Graham? Francis Schaffer? Franklin Graham? D L Moody??????

Moody and Franklin, I have a lot of respect for. Never heard of Shaffer. Billy I've never listened to and probably never will.

Let me rephrase my statement a bit. When two Pentecostals speak of the "Baptism" we generally simply say the "Holy Spirit". We should say the "Baptism". How do you know that these have never spoken in tongues?

If one denies "speaking in tongues" and "being filled with the Spirit", they are denying that Christians today have the same experience as they did on the "Day of Pentecost". I say it doesn't matter how much education or fame they have, if they deny the "Pentecostal" experience, then I don't want to use their reference books.

BTW, Grahams daughter is Pentecostal.

[Meriweather]

But he himself has never done it....that's my point. Yet it's obvious he is filled with the Holy Spirit!!!


I've never done it either. Further, from what I recently learned here, speaking in Tongues is something over which one has control (at least in most instances). One can choose to speak or choose to remain quiet.

If I am choosing to remain silent to begin with, then I can't very well confirm OR deny the experience, can I?

[RayMan]

Moody and Franklin, I have a lot of respect for. Never heard of Shaffer. Billy I've never listed to and probably never will.

Let me rephrase my statement a bit. When two Pentecostals speak of the "Baptism" we generally simply say the "Holy Spirit". We should say the "Baptism". How do you know that these have never spoken in tongues?

If one denies "speaking in tongues" and "being filled with the Spirit", they are denying that Christians today have the same experience as they did on the "Day of Pentecost". I say it doesn't matter how much education or fame they have, if they deny the "Pentecostal" experience, then I don't want to use their reference books.

BTW, Grahams daughter is Pentecostal.

One of the things that helped my wife to accept the legitamacy of the Pentecostal blessing which I experienced about a year ahead of hers was a book Billy wrote on the Holy Spirit.

Wrapping up his chapter on the gifts of the Spirit he emphasized the fact that Paul says "and forbid not to speak with tongues."

[mgifford]

I've never done it either. Further, from what I recently learned here, speaking in Tongues is something over which one has control (at least in most instances). One can choose to speak or choose to remain quiet.

If I am choosing to remain silent to begin with, then I can't very well confirm OR deny the experience, can I?

Mari, as far as "speaking in tongues" is concerned, I don't think it's a matter of choosing to speak or remain quiet. In fact I know it isn't.
It's a matter of "Diverse Tongues" which we've talked about pretty fully.

Anyway, I'll say it again. When a Christian is "Filled with the Spirit", that person speaks in tongues, and possible he will show another of the gifts. I heard of a person one time, who was filled, then as she spoke in tongues, danced over to a man who had just died and raised him up.

The type of tongues that so many get confused is the "Gift of Tongues". This has nothing to do with a believer who is filled and speakes/prays in tongues.

As a person is "Filled" that person speaks in tongues, which was so on the "Day of Pentecost". Since the Pentecost Day, all that are filled speak in tongues, as evidence. Any person who says they are filled with the HS, but has never spoke in tongues, isn't filled/Baptized in the HS.

Although any person who gets saved has the "Holy Spirit" within them, without a doubt, but isn't "Baptized/immersed in the Holy Spirit.

[mgifford]

One of the things that helped my wife to accept the legitamacy of the Pentecostal blessing which I experienced about a year ahead of hers was a book Billy wrote on the Holy Spirit.

Wrapping up his chapter on the gifts of the Spirit he emphasized the fact that Paul says "and forbid not to speak with tongues."

Yeah, he has done so much for Jesus and led so many to the Lord too. I simply don't adhere to his cliche that he uses so often in testifying of his salvation.

I can't ever in any manner, consider myself, "just an old sinner, saved by grace" again, after Jesus saved me, I became someone, In fact either we're old sinners or saved by grace, not both. I'm no longer just a worm and useless. That's where I and Billy part doctrines, because Jesus didn't heal me and then allow me to be "just an old" anything. Sorry.

BTW, when some of you speak of your heroes such as Graham and Moody, you suppose that these Baptists are everyone's heroes, but never mention (but in the negative) the Pentecostal preachers that I cherish.

Ray, I'm not speaking to you here, I know you aren't Baptist.

[RayMan]

Yeah, he has done so much for Jesus and led so many to the Lord too. I simply don't adhere to his cliche that he uses so often in testifying of his salvation.

I can't ever in any manner, consider myself, "just an old sinner, saved by grace" again, after Jesus saved me, I became someone, In fact either we're old sinners or saved by grace, not both. I'm no longer just a worm and useless. That's where I and Billy part doctrines, because Jesus didn't heal me and then allow me to be "just an old" anything. Sorry.

BTW, when some of you speak of your heroes such as Graham and Moody, you suppose that these Baptists are everyone's heroes, but never mention (but in the negative) the Pentecostal preachers that I cherish.

Ray, I'm not speaking to you here, I know you aren't Baptist.

Let's see now. Preacher heroes?

Lester Sumrall
Kenneth E. Hagin
Smith Wigglesworth
T.L. Osburn
Oral Roberts

Yeah, pretty much Pentecostal one and all. :hug:

[jet]

Yeah, he has done so much for Jesus and led so many to the Lord too. I simply don't adhere to his cliche that he uses so often in testifying of his salvation.

I can't ever in any manner, consider myself, "just an old sinner, saved by grace" again, after Jesus saved me, I became someone, In fact either we're old sinners or saved by grace, not both. I'm no longer just a worm and useless. That's where I and Billy part doctrines, because Jesus didn't heal me and then allow me to be "just an old" anything. Sorry.

BTW, when some of you speak of your heroes such as Graham and Moody, you suppose that these Baptists are everyone's heroes, but never mention (but in the negative) the Pentecostal preachers that I cherish.

Ray, I'm not speaking to you here, I know you aren't Baptist.

:wall: and for the record, neither am I.

I'm just annoyed beyond belief that a group of believers believes a believer does not have full power of the holy spirit unless they have spoken in tongues. You are not only limiting GOd's power but you are hurting the believers out there that have not experienced and many never experience speaking in tongues. You have elevated it above all the gifts when Jesus Christ Himself said the greatest commandment is to LOVE the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength and to LOVE your neighbor as yourself. Paul followed up with I speak with the tongues of men but have NOT LOVE I am but a clanging symbal.

A group of pentecostals almost ruined my husband's newfound faith because they bullied him with the fact that he doesn't speak in tongues. He's the most loving man I know and has never, to this day, spoken in tongues but God works through him anyway because HE HAS THE FULL POWER OF THE HOLY SPIRIT...just like anyone does that professes Christ!!!!

[mgifford]

Let's see now. Preacher heroes?

Lester Sumrall
Kenneth E. Hagin
Smith Wigglesworth
T.L. Osburn
Oral Roberts

Yeah, pretty much Pentecostal one and all. :hug:

+!

[RayMan]

Thank you for your post!

Yep! Love ya Jet. :hug:

[Meriweather]

Mari, as far as "speaking in tongues" is concerned, I don't think it's a matter of choosing to speak or remain quiet. In fact I know it isn't.
It's a matter of "Diverse Tongues" which we've talked about pretty fully.

Anyway, I'll say it again. When a Christian is "Filled with the Spirit", that person speaks in tongues, and possible he will show another of the gifts. I heard of a person one time, who was filled, then as she spoke in tongues, danced over to a man who had just died and raised him up.

The type of tongues that so many get confused is the "Gift of Tongues". This has nothing to do with a believer who is filled and speakes/prays in tongues.

As a person is "Filled" that person speaks in tongues, which was so on the "Day of Pentecost". Since the Pentecost Day, all that are filled speak in tongues, as evidence. Any person who says they are filled with the HS, but has never spoke in tongues, isn't filled/Baptized in the HS.

Although any person who gets saved has the "Holy Spirit" within them, without a doubt, but isn't "Baptized/immersed in the Holy Spirit.

Very well.

It appears there are still some things I do not fully understand. So when one is baptized/immersed in the Holy Spirit, one cannot help themselves from speaking in Tongues?

[jet]

Yep! Love ya Jet. :hug:

:)) I'm quite content with the love of my friends and family, thank you very much. I don't need your love or approval, babe. ;)

Neither one of you has addressed the same question I've asked multiple times in multiple different ways: how can you as a believer judge that someone is not baptized in the holy spirit or have full power of the Holy Spirit because they don't speak in some unknown prayer language? :think:

For the record, I believe people can be annoited with the Spirit and speak a known tongue that then edifies someone who speaks that language. Chuck Smith has documented that numerous times. People I know have experienced it. Yet those same people do not speak in a prayer language.

[RayMan]

Very well.

It appears there are still some things I do not fully understand. So when one is baptized/immersed in the Holy Spirit, one cannot help themselves from speaking in Tongues?

Nope. The general rule of thumb is the same for tongues and interpretation in a public setting as for manifesting the gift of prophecy.

1 Cor 14:32 And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets.

[jet]

Very well.

It appears there are still some things I do not fully understand. So when one is baptized/immersed in the Holy Spirit, one cannot help themselves from speaking in Tongues?

Chuck Smith would contradict that and say a believer can will himself to speak in tongues...but it's always for the edification of another believer. An actual tongue, i.e. language like French, German, etc.

[RayMan]

Chuck Smith would contradict that and say a believer can will himself to speak in tongues...but it's always for the edification of another believer. An actual tongue, i.e. language like French, German, etc.


One of the reasons Chuck Smith left the Church of the Foursquare Gospel back in the '60s was because he doesnt' encourage the manifestation of the gifts in public services. His teaching on the gifts of the Spirit is not in line with historical Pentecostalism on a number of points.

[RayMan]

Thanks Ray, I've never heard of him. LOL!

He was one of the primary movers of the "Jesus People" movement of the late '60s. Founder of the "Calvary Chapel" denomination. Very strong on expository teaching.

[Meriweather]

:wall: and for the record, neither am I.

I'm just annoyed beyond belief that a group of believers believes a believer does not have full power of the holy spirit unless they have spoken in tongues. You are not only limiting GOd's power but you are hurting the believers out there that have not experienced and many never experience speaking in tongues. You have elevated it above all the gifts when Jesus Christ Himself said the greatest commandment is to LOVE the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength and to LOVE your neighbor as yourself. Paul followed up with I speak with the tongues of men but have NOT LOVE I am but a clanging symbal.

A group of pentecostals almost ruined my husband's newfound faith because they bullied him with the fact that he doesn't speak in tongues. He's the most loving man I know and has never, to this day, spoken in tongues but God works through him anyway because HE HAS THE FULL POWER OF THE HOLY SPIRIT...just like anyone does that professes Christ!!!!


First of all, I am cheered that your husband's newfound faith survived. Good for him. That, to me, is evidence of the power of the Holy Spirit.

But nor am I annoyed that apparently the five Pentecostals I've been discussing all of this with do not believe I could have ever been immersed in the Holy Spirit. In fact, I love the irony of it! These friendly Pentecostals here have already said they are aware they have to be on guard for possible fakery in their own church among their own members. This, to me, makes good sense, So then, how can I turn around and complain about them being on guard against me when I say I never spoke in Tongues, and nor will I ever seek such an experience. To them, I must sound like an uneducated heretic--what was it that Ray called me a couple of weeks ago? About as sharp as a sack of wet mice? I've got to admit, even I have a hard time picturing a sack of wet mice and the Holy Spirit working together. :))

[RayMan]

<snip>. To them, I must sound like an uneducated heretic--what was it that Ray called me a couple of weeks ago? About as sharp as a sack of wet mice? I've got to admit, even I have a hard time picturing a sack of wet mice and the Holy Spirit working together. :))

Hey now, that was Foghorn Leghorn, not me.

[MitchM]

Acts 2:2-4
And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting. [3] And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.

[4] And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

This will answer the question of, how do you know a person is "filled with the Holy Spirit"? On the Day of Pentecost they were filled and spoke in tongues.

And also other places in the book of Acts we see them filled, and speaking in other tongues.

[RayMan]

Correct! If an answer is sought we have to go to the book. Where you find that believers were saved after Pentecost, you find them being "Filled with the Spirit and speaking in Tongues as they were Filled".

Act 2:4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
------------
Act 9:17 And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house; and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost.
--------------------

Act 10:44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.
Act 10:45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Act 10:46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,

Act 11:15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning.
Act 11:16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.
Act 11:17 Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?
-----------------------

Act 19:1 And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples,
Act 19:2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.
Act 19:3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.
Act 19:4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
Act 19:5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
Act 19:6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.

[RayMan]

Yes brother!

Act 19:6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.

This verse also shows what I've said about "receiving and then also receiving another gift at the same time".

Good one Ray!


It's not like the book of Acts is a textbook on quantum physics. Simply by reading it and taking the words at face value you see that pretty much everybody in the early church was spirit-filled and there was some sort of supernatural evidence of it. Usually tongues.

[Meriweather]

It's not like the book of Acts is a textbook on quantum physics. Simply by reading it and taking the words at face value you see that pretty much everybody in the early church was spirit-filled and there was some sort of supernatural evidence of it. Usually tongues.

Sigh. Maybe I'm in the classroom and playing fields too much, but in my life, it is silence that has the supernatural quality to it.

[RayMan]

Sigh. Maybe I'm in the classroom and playing fields too much, but in my life, it is silence that has the supernatural quality to it.

Fine. So you have an experience which does not reflect the book of Acts on the subject. I have no problem with that.

You should have no problem with those of us who have an experience which lines up with the N.T. scripture. :cool:

[Meriweather]

Fine. So you have an experience which does not reflect the book of Acts on the subject. I have no problem with that.

You should have no problem with those of us who have an experience which lines up with the N.T. scripture. :cool:

I thought I've been making it pretty clear that I have no problem with those of you who experience Tongues. Mystified, yes--still a little--but no problems. Such opposite ends of the spectrum--but still the same spectrum is the way I am now seeing it. However, I do get the impression that true Pentecostals may believe I am a little off the spectrum, but that doesn't disturb me, either.

[RayMan]

I thought I've been making it pretty clear that I have no problem with those of you who experience Tongues. Mystified, yes--still a little--but no problems. Such opposite ends of the spectrum--but still the same spectrum is the way I am now seeing it. However, I do get the impression that true Pentecostals may believe I am a little off the spectrum, but that doesn't disturb me, either.

I just like to point out that we have a strong N.T. scriptural background for our viewpoint on the Baptism of the Holy Spirit. I know you know that but I like to reassert the fact regularly for our guests who are reading but not part of the forum.

As an example, right now we have 8 members and 18 guests perusing the R.F.


I think also that most Pentecostal folk don't view the supernatural manifestations of the Holy Spirit to be optional in the believer's walk according to the personal preference of the believer.

[jet]

This viewpoint drastically limits the power of God, imo. Context is everything...the early Christians were challenged with spreading the gospel. Jerusalem was the major port of the day. Tongues was needed to spread the gospel to Gentiles, hence their languages needed to be spoken. That's what happened. Paul was teaching to so many differeng people he was speaking in their language.
You also suggested someone can will themselves to speak in tongues yet Acts 2 specifically states they spoke "as the Spirit gave them utterance". Again, who is in control of the HOly SPirit? Surely not us.
We have the written Word....we know God through His Word and through prayer. It is not necessary for a believer to speak in tongues to have the full power of the Holy Spirit. 1 Corinthians 12 states the various gifts are given....it doesn't say everyone has tongues or prophecy or teaching....For to one is given the word of (M (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=53&chapter=12&version=49#cen-NASB-28643M))wisdom through the Spirit, and to another the word of (N (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=53&chapter=12&version=49#cen-NASB-28643N))knowledge according to the same Spirit;

9to another (O (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=53&chapter=12&version=49#cen-NASB-28644O))faith by the same Spirit, and to another (P (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=53&chapter=12&version=49#cen-NASB-28644P))gifts of healing by the one Spirit,
10and to another the effecting of (Q (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=53&chapter=12&version=49#cen-NASB-28645Q))miracles, and to another (R (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=53&chapter=12&version=49#cen-NASB-28645R))prophecy, and to another the (S (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=53&chapter=12&version=49#cen-NASB-28645S))distinguishing of spirits, to another various (T (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=53&chapter=12&version=49#cen-NASB-28645T))kinds of tongues, and to another the (U (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=53&chapter=12&version=49#cen-NASB-28645U))interpretation of tongues.
11But one and the same Spirit works all these things, (V (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=53&chapter=12&version=49#cen-NASB-28646V))distributing to each one individually just as He wills.
12For even (W (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=53&chapter=12&version=49#cen-NASB-28647W))as the body is one and yet has many members, and all the members of the body, though they are many, are one body, (X (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=53&chapter=12&version=49#cen-NASB-28647X))so also is Christ. 13For (Y (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=53&chapter=12&version=49#cen-NASB-28648Y))by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether (Z (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=53&chapter=12&version=49#cen-NASB-28648Z))Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free, and we were all made to (AA (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=53&chapter=12&version=49#cen-NASB-28648AA))drink of one Spirit. Most noted is the by one spirit we are ALL baptized into one body.

Further down in 1 Corinthians 12 we again read: Now you are (A (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=53&chapter=12&verse=27&end_verse=29&version=49&context=context#cen-NASB-28662A))Christ's body, and (B (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=53&chapter=12&verse=27&end_verse=29&version=49&context=context#cen-NASB-28662B))individually members of it.

28And God has (C (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=53&chapter=12&verse=27&end_verse=29&version=49&context=context#cen-NASB-28663C))appointed in (D (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=53&chapter=12&verse=27&end_verse=29&version=49&context=context#cen-NASB-28663D))the church, first (E (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=53&chapter=12&verse=27&end_verse=29&version=49&context=context#cen-NASB-28663E))apostles, second (F (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=53&chapter=12&verse=27&end_verse=29&version=49&context=context#cen-NASB-28663F))prophets, third (G (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=53&chapter=12&verse=27&end_verse=29&version=49&context=context#cen-NASB-28663G))teachers, then (H (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=53&chapter=12&verse=27&end_verse=29&version=49&context=context#cen-NASB-28663H))miracles, then (I (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=53&chapter=12&verse=27&end_verse=29&version=49&context=context#cen-NASB-28663I))gifts of healings, helps, (J (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=53&chapter=12&verse=27&end_verse=29&version=49&context=context#cen-NASB-28663J))administrations, various (K (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=53&chapter=12&verse=27&end_verse=29&version=49&context=context#cen-NASB-28663K))kinds of tongues. 29All are not apostles, are they? All are not prophets, are they? All are not teachers, are they? All are not workers of miracles, are they?

Paul himself he wished all spoke in tongues.....but obviously we don't because if that were the case, he would have said since you all speak in tongues....
1 Corinthians 14:4-6 (New American Standard Bible)

4One who (A (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=53&chapter=14&verse=4&end_verse=6&version=49&context=context#cen-NASB-28683A))speaks in a tongue (B (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=53&chapter=14&verse=4&end_verse=6&version=49&context=context#cen-NASB-28683B))edifies himself; but one who (C (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=53&chapter=14&verse=4&end_verse=6&version=49&context=context#cen-NASB-28683C))prophesies (D (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=53&chapter=14&verse=4&end_verse=6&version=49&context=context#cen-NASB-28683D))edifies the church.

5Now I wish that you all (E (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=53&chapter=14&verse=4&end_verse=6&version=49&context=context#cen-NASB-28684E))spoke in tongues, but (F (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=53&chapter=14&verse=4&end_verse=6&version=49&context=context#cen-NASB-28684F))even more that you would prophesy; and greater is one who prophesies than one who (G (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=53&chapter=14&verse=4&end_verse=6&version=49&context=context#cen-NASB-28684G))speaks in tongues, unless he interprets, so that the church may receive (H (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=53&chapter=14&verse=4&end_verse=6&version=49&context=context#cen-NASB-28684H))edifying. 6But now, brethren, if I come to you speaking in tongues, what will I profit you unless I speak to you either by way of (I (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=53&chapter=14&verse=4&end_verse=6&version=49&context=context#cen-NASB-28685I))revelation or of (J (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=53&chapter=14&verse=4&end_verse=6&version=49&context=context#cen-NASB-28685J))knowledge or of (K (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=53&chapter=14&verse=4&end_verse=6&version=49&context=context#cen-NASB-28685K))prophecy or of (L (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=53&chapter=14&verse=4&end_verse=6&version=49&context=context#cen-NASB-28685L))teaching?

And lastly, Romans 8, and well, most of Romans, speaks about the continuing conflict of the flesh and Spirit...yet once we receive C
Life Through the Spirit

1Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus,[a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%208;&version=31;#fen-NIV-28103a)] 2because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death. 3For what the law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the sinful nature,[b (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%208;&version=31;#fen-NIV-28105b)] God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful man to be a sin offering.[c (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%208;&version=31;#fen-NIV-28105c)] And so he condemned sin in sinful man,[d (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%208;&version=31;#fen-NIV-28105d)] 4in order that the righteous requirements of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the sinful nature but according to the Spirit. Christ, we have the Holy Spirit.

[jet]

I'm so amazed that people feel like they can listen to a favorite speaker and all of a sudden that person knows more than a Pentecostal about "speaking in tongues. It's remarkable, actually.

And I find it amazing that because someone has a prayer language they have the corner market on the power of God. ;)

[jet]

lol!

By the way, I listen to several speakers and have attended several AOG/Vineyard congregations as well as one UPC coupled with several members of my husband's family who are oneness Pentecostals. I have done my study, too. Just because someone disagrees with you does not make her any less intelligent. ;)

[jet]

lol! I'm not going to argue with you no matter what.

Refute what I am offering in the way of scripture. That's what I'm saying.....I mean, in some eyes, I'm not even saved because I don't have the baptism of the Holy Spirit so therefore I'm condemned to hell.....:think:

This is a debate forum, fellow poster. Isn't it about discussion/arguing? You throw a barb, I will give you one back..that's fair, no? You be respectful, I will be kind in return. Works both ways.

[RayMan]

<snip>
You also suggested someone can will themselves to speak in tongues yet Acts 2 specifically states they spoke "as the Spirit gave them utterance". <snip>.


On the day of Pentecost THEY spake in tongues as the Spirit gave them the utterance. The Spirit supplied the content, they made the decision to open their mouths and speak it forth.

In Mark 16 Jesus said that one of the supernatural signs that would follow believers was "they shall speak in new tongues. Doesn't say the Spirit will speak in tongues, the believers will. Also doesn't say might, says shall.

In 1 Cor 14 when instructing the church on the subjects of tongues, interpretation of tongues and prophecy Paul uses a personal example and then lays out a directive for orderly use of the vocal gifts in corporate gatherings of the church.


1 Cor 14:14 For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful. 15 What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.


I WILL pray with the spirit. I WILL sing with spirit. Same as doing either with the understanding. I make the decision whether to open my mouth and speak or not. I am trusting the Holy Spirit to provide the evidence.


1 Cor 14:26 How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying. 27 If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret. 28 But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God. 29 Let the prophets speak two or three, and let the other judge. 30 If any thing be revealed to another that sitteth by, let the first hold his peace. 31 For ye may all prophesy one by one, that all may learn, and all may be comforted. 32 And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets. 33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.

Whether tongues or prophesy God doesn't just override the will of the believer. I can either will to speak in tongues or prophesy in a service or I can will not do, depending on the circumstances of the service and whether or not I believe God is prompting me to share something with the church.

[jet]

On the day of Pentecost THEY spake in tongues as the Spirit gave them the utterance. The Spirit supplied the content, they made the decision to open their mouths and speak it forth.

In Mark 16 Jesus said that one of the supernatural signs that would follow believers was "they shall speak in new tongues. Doesn't say the Spirit will speak in tongues, the believers will. Also doesn't say might, says shall.

In 1 Cor 14 when instructing the church on the subjects of tongues, interpretation of tongues and prophecy Paul uses a personal example and then lays out a directive for orderly use of the vocal gifts in corporate gatherings of the church.


1 Cor 14:14 For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful. 15 What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.


I WILL pray with the spirit. I WILL sing with spirit. Same as doing either with the understanding. I make the decision whether to open my mouth and speak or not. I am trusting the Holy Spirit to provide the evidence.


1 Cor 14:26 How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying. 27 If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret. 28 But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God. 29 Let the prophets speak two or three, and let the other judge. 30 If any thing be revealed to another that sitteth by, let the first hold his peace. 31 For ye may all prophesy one by one, that all may learn, and all may be comforted. 32 And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets. 33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.

Whether tongues or prophesy God doesn't just override the will of the believer. I can either will to speak in tongues or prophesy in a service or I can will not do, depending on the circumstances of the service and whether or not I believe God is prompting me to share something with the church.

OK. So does the Holy Spirit prompt you to give utterance? And what if you refuse?

[gpd®]

OK. So does the Holy Spirit prompt you to give utterance? And what if you refuse?

I call it being "callous" to the Holy Spirit and it is a sin.

[RayMan]

OK. So does the Holy Spirit prompt you to give utterance? And what if you refuse?

Speaking of what is called a "message in tongues" at a public meeting that is a pretty good way to put it.


Answer to second question: I don't.

[jet]

Speaking of what is called a "message in tongues" at a public meeting that is a pretty good way to put it.


Answer to second question: I don't.

OK...so I'm still confused, seriously, as to how you can have the will but can reject the movement of the Holy Spirit.
Does this go back to Freewill? And please, no predestination discussions :shifty: ;)

[RayMan]

OK...so I'm still confused, seriously, as to how you can have the will but can reject the movement of the Holy Spirit.
Does this go back to Freewill? And please, no predestination discussions :shifty: ;)


God isn't going to reach into a hole in your back and work a lever up and down like like a ventriloquist to make your jaw open and close any more then He is going to twist your arm behind your back to coerce you into getting saved in the first place.

[gpd®]

God isn't going to reach into a hole in your back and work a lever up and down like like a ventriloquist to make your jaw open and close any more then He is going to twist your arm behind your back to coerce you into getting saved in the first place.

Agreed. My head is spinning on that "Persuasion" thread.

[RayMan]

Agreed. My head is spinning on that "Persuasion" thread.


I dropped in their once a couple days ago. Have avoided it since. My brain hurts enough as it is. :cool:

[CID_0687]

I dropped in their once a couple days ago. Have avoided it since. My brain hurts enough as it is. :cool:
What's a Persuasion thread?

[RayMan]

What's a Persuasion thread?
It's one where everyone is singing a cappela.

[CID_0687]

It's one where everyone is singing a cappela.
That ain't none of me man, I gotz to have my acomp, acomp, acomp....my guitar pickin'

[RayMan]

That ain't none of me man, I gotz to have my acomp, acomp, acomp....my guitar pickin'

Saw the Persuasions about 30 years ago opening for Joni Mitchell. Those guys can sing like nobody's business.

[Meriweather]

Good morning, CID! I did not want you to come in and find the Pentecostal thread at the bottomof the page. See how much you have taught me (and how much I have learned)? :mrgreen:

[CID_0687]

We are open for questioning. Good morning all.

[Meriweather]

We are open for questioning. Good morning all.

Good morning!

Actually, I have been pondering over a question after doing some outside reading. Further, I don't think you will need to shout for Ray to line up scripture for me. :razz:

Because of the emotions associated with Fire Baptism, speaking in Tongues, and Pentecostal worship--all very good things, mind you--but what if someone like me....Actually, let's make it ME.

What if I walk into a Pentecostal Church because I've been feeling spiritually dry for quite some time and I'm on my last ropes, about to give up my belief in God. In good faith and with a fervent heart I immerse myself into Pentecostalism, do all the right things (I even sing and shout)....but, nothing. No Fire Baptism happens for me, I don't speak in Tongues, I am as spiritually dry as ever. How does the Pentecostal help me?

[CID_0687]

Good morning!

Actually, I have been pondering over a question after doing some outside reading. Further, I don't think you will need to shout for Ray to line up scripture for me. :razz:

Because of the emotions associated with Fire Baptism, speaking in Tongues, and Pentecostal worship--all very good things, mind you--but what if someone like me....Actually, let's make it ME.

What if I walk into a Pentecostal Church because I've been feeling spiritually dry for quite some time and I'm on my last ropes, about to give up my belief in God. In good faith and with a fervent heart I immerse myself into Pentecostalism, do all the right things (I even sing and shout)....but, nothing. No Fire Baptism happens for me, I don't speak in Tongues, I am as spiritually dry as ever. How does the Pentecostal help me?
Well, first let's remember that not all who attend the Pentecostal church have been Fire Baptized. It was around two years after I had been attending before I received the Baptism of the Holy Spirit.

What this Pentecostal would do, (me) is talk with you and see what is causing your spiritual drought. Speaking from personal experience here, when I've gone through dry spells there has been a deeper issue. Either depression, stress, things of that nature...We get wrapped up in ourselves so much, and we think at times that we are letting God be in control of life's situations, when in reality He's sitting in the backseat waiting for you to tell him to drive.

I think we all get into spiritual funks every now and then...we just have to find the source and cut it off at the root.

[RayMan]

My name is RayMan and I approve of CID's message.























The one directly above. Not just anything he might spout off in general..;)

[Meriweather]

Well, first let's remember that not all who attend the Pentecostal church have been Fire Baptized. It was around two years after I had been attending before I received the Baptism of the Holy Spirit.

What this Pentecostal would do, (me) is talk with you and see what is causing your spiritual drought. Speaking from personal experience here, when I've gone through dry spells there has been a deeper issue. Either depression, stress, things of that nature...We get wrapped up in ourselves so much, and we think at times that we are letting God be in control of life's situations, when in reality He's sitting in the backseat waiting for you to tell him to drive.

I think we all get into spiritual funks every now and then...we just have to find the source and cut it off at the root.

I've been trying to step completely outside my own practices and beliefs to better hear what Pentecostals are saying, but this one I can't resist. So you are aware, I am coming from a background of where spiritual dryness is not considered any less valuable than say something comparable to Fire Baptism.

Are there times Pentecostals value spiritual dryness? Or, do they have an entirely different way of looking at this than I have?

[CID_0687]

My name is RayMan and I approve of CID's message.























The one directly above. Not just anything he might spout off in general..;)
You know you approve of my general spouting as well. :D

[Meriweather]

My name is RayMan and I approve of CID's message.























The one directly above. Not just anything he might spout off in general..;)

Then, my second question (above) is for you, too. Is spiritual dryness ever considered a thing of value?

[RayMan]

I've been trying to step completely outside my own practices and beliefs to better hear what Pentecostals are saying, but this one I can't resist. So you are aware, I am coming from a background of where spiritual dryness is not considered any less valuable than say something comparable to Fire Baptism.

Are there times Pentecostals value spiritual dryness? Or, do they have an entirely different way of looking at this than I have?

The very idea of the spirit-filled life is anti-spiritual dryness.

John 7:37 In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink. 38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. 39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

[CID_0687]

I've been trying to step completely outside my own practices and beliefs to better hear what Pentecostals are saying, but this one I can't resist. So you are aware, I am coming from a background of where spiritual dryness is not considered any less valuable than say something comparable to Fire Baptism.

Are there times Pentecostals value spiritual dryness? Or, do they have an entirely different way of looking at this than I have?
Do we value spiritual dryness? :think:

That which does not kill us makes us stronger. The Bible teaches us that we will have trials and tribulations....and these trials help to make us stronger in our faith, for those of us who can allow God to take control. Unfortunately, there are those of us who cannot do this, and it creates a barrier between them and God. I've been on both sides of this equation.

Rev. Bobby Shepherd (my spiritual father) use to tell us that without a test you cannot have a testimony. So to answer your question I would have to say yes it can be valuable and beneficial...but it can also be a devastating blow at times as well.

[Meriweather]

The very idea of the spirit-filled life is anti-spiritual dryness.

John 7:37 In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink. 38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. 39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

But, in Pentecostalism, does a spirit-filled life require Fire Baptism and speaking in Tongues? Frown. I think I may have that a bit backwards in Pentecostal thinking. I am remembering that Fire Baptism and speaking in Tongues is a result of a spirit-filled life. Perhaps the more correct wording is does this always happen in a spirit filled life? When it doesn't happen (or doesn't happen for a very long time) don't people get discouraged? Shouldn't they be encouraged as to the value inherent in dryness?

[Meriweather]

Do we value spiritual dryness? :think:

That which does not kill us makes us stronger. The Bible teaches us that we will have trials and tribulations....and these trials help to make us stronger in our faith, for those of us who can allow God to take control. Unfortunately, there are those of us who cannot do this, and it creates a barrier between them and God. I've been on both sides of this equation.

Rev. Bobby Shepherd (my spiritual father) use to tell us that without a test you cannot have a testimony. So to answer your question I would have to say yes it can be valuable and beneficial...but it can also be a devastating blow at times as well.

But people are on hand to help in times of devastation, correct?

[CID_0687]

But people are on hand to help in times of devastation, correct?
Well sure....what kind of Christian would someone be if they saw their brother or sister hurting and didn't give them a hand?

[Meriweather]

Well sure....what kind of Christian would someone be if they saw their brother or sister hurting and didn't give them a hand?

I don't think it would be helpful if the helping hand was to be, "Try harder."

Again, I my background is that there is usually a very good reason and a purpose for spiritual dryness. Therefore, encouragement to "try harder" would not be all that helpful, and might, in fact, be depressing. I guess my worry would be that spiritual dryness, as hard as it is, is not given, by Pentecostal thought, the value it deserves, but is just something to get over as quickly as possible.

(I think I will stop with this before I get two different philosophies so entangled we are all tied up in knots. That was not my intent, to put us in knots.)

[RayMan]

<snip> Shouldn't they be encouraged as to the value inherent in dryness?

I'm going to say no.

[Meriweather]

I'm going to say no.

Okay.

[CID_0687]

I don't think it would be helpful if the helping hand was to be, "Try harder."

Again, I my background is that there is usually a very good reason and a purpose for spiritual dryness. Therefore, encouragement to "try harder" would not be all that helpful, and might, in fact, be depressing. I guess my worry would be that spiritual dryness, as hard as it is, is not given, by Pentecostal thought, the value it deserves, but is just something to get over as quickly as possible.

(I think I will stop with this before I get two different philosophies so entangled we are all tied up in knots. That was not my intent, to put us in knots.)
I guess I'm having trouble with what it is you are asking Meri.

It's almost as if you are saying spiritual dryness is a good thing. As I said, it can be beneficial in the sense that it makes us stronger, once we've gone through it.

But who would want to be stuck in a spiritual rut?

"Try harder," is not necessarily what I mean by being encouraging...when someone is in that state you listen to them, you talk with them, you give them Biblical helps, encouragement from the Lord. "Try harder," is only the tip of the iceberg....if it's even on the iceberg at all.

[JenT]

I guess I'm having trouble with what it is you are asking Meri.

It's almost as if you are saying spiritual dryness is a good thing. As I said, it can be beneficial in the sense that it makes us stronger, once we've gone through it.

But who would want to be stuck in a spiritual rut?

"Try harder," is not necessarily what I mean by being encouraging...when someone is in that state you listen to them, you talk with them, you give them Biblical helps, encouragement from the Lord. "Try harder," is only the tip of the iceberg....if it's even on the iceberg at all.

Would Biblical knowledge without the Spirit be what is considered "spiritual dryness?"

I don't know what spiritual dryness is, that's the only thing I can imagine. What are you guys talking about?

[JenT]

okay I used to think it was cool when my name dominated the forum topics...

now I realize it just means nobody is talking to me

[RayMan]

Would Biblical knowledge without the Spirit be what is considered "spiritual dryness?"

I don't know what spiritual dryness is, that's the only thing I can imagine. What are you guys talking about?

I think what Meri is talking about is related to Catholic Mystical Theology.
Excerpt below is from NewAdvent site. When I googled the term "spiritual dryness" pretty much all the sites that came up were Catholic.

Meri, you want to give us a definition of what you mean when you use the phrase. The excerpt below is above my paygrade. I don't get it at all.

------------------------------
Mystical Theology

------------------------------------------
What strictly comes within the province of mystical theology is the study of the processes of active and passive purification through which a soul must pass to reach the mystical union. Although the active processes are also treated to some extent in ascetical theology, they require special study inasmuch as they lead to contemplation.

They comprise: purity of conscience, or aversion even to the slightest sin; purity of heart, the heart being taken as the symbol of the affections, which to be pure must be free of attachments to anything that does not lead to God; purity of the spirit, i.e. of the imagination and memory; and purity of action. It is to these processes that the well-known term "night" is applied by St. John of the Cross, since they imply three things which are as night to the soul in so far as they are beyond or contrary to its own lights, viz., the privation of pleasure, faith as substituted for human knowledge, and God as incomprehensible, or darkness, to the unaided soul.

Passive purifications are the trials encountered by souls in preparation for contemplation, known as desolation, or dryness, and weariness. As they proceed sometimes from God and sometimes may be produced by the Evil Spirit, rules for the discernment of spirits are set down to enable directors to determine their source and to apply proper means of relief, especially should it happen that the action of the Evil One tends to possession or obsession.

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14621a.htm

(paragraphing and italics added)

[CID_0687]

Would Biblical knowledge without the Spirit be what is considered "spiritual dryness?"

I don't know what spiritual dryness is, that's the only thing I can imagine. What are you guys talking about?
It must be different than what I was thinking it was...I was thinking of being in a spiritual rut...

[JenT]

It must be different than what I was thinking it was...I was thinking of being in a spiritual rut...

I get in spiritual ruts when my crisis are over, because suddenly He's not there so tangibly, for lack of a better word.

Hey, maybe I should get in a crisis...

[RayMan]

I get in spiritual ruts when my crisis are over, because suddenly He's not there so tangibly, for lack of a better word.

Hey, maybe I should get in a crisis...

Just hang around the RF for an hour...:cool:

[Meriweather]

I guess I'm having trouble with what it is you are asking Meri.

It's almost as if you are saying spiritual dryness is a good thing. As I said, it can be beneficial in the sense that it makes us stronger, once we've gone through it.

But who would want to be stuck in a spiritual rut?

"Try harder," is not necessarily what I mean by being encouraging...when someone is in that state you listen to them, you talk with them, you give them Biblical helps, encouragement from the Lord. "Try harder," is only the tip of the iceberg....if it's even on the iceberg at all.

and

Would Biblical knowledge without the Spirit be what is considered "spiritual dryness?"

I don't know what spiritual dryness is, that's the only thing I can imagine. What are you guys talking about?

All right, I will lay this out, but before I do, remember that I still know very, very little of Pentecostal ways. I've been hesitating and choosing my words with care because it is not my wish to criticize or offend anyone. I truly do wish to learn. That being said, gather up the tomatoes and fruit, and I'll take my pelting graciously.

I understand that Fire Baptism and speaking in Tongues is a good thing. I've also heard it said that speaking in Tongues is one of the lesser gifts of the Spirit.

Spiritual dryness can be caused two very different ways. Did you know that you could dig a well, have it filled with water, but that unless you keep drawing from that well it will dry up and become useless. A well drying up through lack of being drawn on makes a good metaphor for someone who has been filled with the Spirit and then neglects to draw on the Spirit.

The second type of spiritual dryness can be likened to time in--or journeying through--a desert to reach the ocean on the other side. Let's say you have found a nice little oasis in the desert and let's call it, Speaking in Tongues. You still know about the ocean, The Greater Gifts, because scripture tells you speaking in Tongues is one of the lesser gifts. Let's say that you decide to travel on in search of greater gifts, but it is across the desert of spiritual dryness, and you become thirsty. So, in your thirst, you return to the Oasis of Tongues. You are refreshed....but you don't get through the desert to the ocean, either.

So I am asking: Is it possible that Speaking in Tongues (a lesser gift) could become a hindrance in developing one's spirituality? It is filling, it is nourishing--but does it keep one from venturing too far from this oasis?

Again, the philosophy I've been studying for the past several years is a very different one, but it is rooted deeply in Christianity. It is an entirely different avenue, and it is a very confusing one. Catholics tell me I should not be attempting this alone, and the very few times I try to explain what I am about, I only end up bewildering people. Surprisingly, in recent weeks delving into Pentecostal belief has helped me in these other studies--but now (you might say) I have encountered the next road block.

That is why I am asking you Pentecostals about spiritual dryness; how you perceive and define it; how you work through it. It is not my intent to criticize, I'm only trying to understand not only things Pentecostal, but things not Pentecostal as well. I may be attempting too big of a bite.

[Meriweather]

I think what Meri is talking about is related to Catholic Mystical Theology.
Excerpt below is from NewAdvent site. When I googled the term "spiritual dryness" pretty much all the sites that came up were Catholic.

Meri, you want to give us a definition of what you mean when you use the phrase. The excerpt below is above my paygrade. I don't get it at all.

------------------------------
Mystical Theology

------------------------------------------
What strictly comes within the province of mystical theology is the study of the processes of active and passive purification through which a soul must pass to reach the mystical union. Although the active processes are also treated to some extent in ascetical theology, they require special study inasmuch as they lead to contemplation.

They comprise: purity of conscience, or aversion even to the slightest sin; purity of heart, the heart being taken as the symbol of the affections, which to be pure must be free of attachments to anything that does not lead to God; purity of the spirit, i.e. of the imagination and memory; and purity of action. It is to these processes that the well-known term "night" is applied by St. John of the Cross, since they imply three things which are as night to the soul in so far as they are beyond or contrary to its own lights, viz., the privation of pleasure, faith as substituted for human knowledge, and God as incomprehensible, or darkness, to the unaided soul.

Passive purifications are the trials encountered by souls in preparation for contemplation, known as desolation, or dryness, and weariness. As they proceed sometimes from God and sometimes may be produced by the Evil Spirit, rules for the discernment of spirits are set down to enable directors to determine their source and to apply proper means of relief, especially should it happen that the action of the Evil One tends to possession or obsession.

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14621a.htm

(paragraphing and italics added)

You've been busy while I was typing. Yes. This is where I am coming from.

[CID_0687]

and



All right, I will lay this out, but before I do, remember that I still know very, very little of Pentecostal ways. I've been hesitating and choosing my words with care because it is not my wish to criticize or offend anyone. I truly do wish to learn. That being said, gather up the tomatoes and fruit, and I'll take my pelting graciously.

I understand that Fire Baptism and speaking in Tongues is a good thing. I've also heard it said that speaking in Tongues is one of the lesser gifts of the Spirit.

Spiritual dryness can be caused two very different ways. Did you know that you could dig a well, have it filled with water, but that unless you keep drawing from that well it will dry up and become useless. A well drying up through lack of being drawn on makes a good metaphor for someone who has been filled with the Spirit and then neglects to draw on the Spirit.

The second type of spiritual dryness can be likened to time in--or journeying through--a desert to reach the ocean on the other side. Let's say you have found a nice little oasis in the desert and let's call it, Speaking in Tongues. You still know about the ocean, The Greater Gifts, because scripture tells you speaking in Tongues is one of the lesser gifts. Let's say that you decide to travel on in search of greater gifts, but it is across the desert of spiritual dryness, and you become thirsty. So, in your thirst, you return to the Oasis of Tongues. You are refreshed....but you don't get through the desert to the ocean, either.

So I am asking: Is it possible that Speaking in Tongues (a lesser gift) could become a hindrance in developing one's spirituality? It is filling, it is nourishing--but does it keep one from venturing too far from this oasis?

Again, the philosophy I've been studying for the past several years is a very different one, but it is rooted deeply in Christianity. It is an entirely different avenue, and it is a very confusing one. Catholics tell me I should not be attempting this alone, and the very few times I try to explain what I am about, I only end up bewildering people. Surprisingly, in recent weeks delving into Pentecostal belief has helped me in these other studies--but now (you might say) I have encountered the next road block.

That is why I am asking you Pentecostals about spiritual dryness; how you perceive and define it; how you work through it. It is not my intent to criticize, I'm only trying to understand not only things Pentecostal, but things not Pentecostal as well. I may be attempting too big of a bite.
I think I get what you are saying Meri, but it's not a good analogy.

Think of speaking in tongues more like a creek, if you follow the creek you end up at the river, and if you follow the river it leads you to the ocean.

Once you become filled with the spirit you have a desire to experience more and more of what God has to offer.

I do agree that you can dry up...if you're not using your gifts.

But I would not consider not using your gifts and drying up to be a good thing.

[RayMan]

You've been busy while I was typing. Yes. This is where I am coming from.

Shucks, I can google, cut and paste someone else's thoughts WAY quicker than you can type out your own original thoughts. :mrgreen:

[Meriweather]

I think I get what you are saying Meri, but it's not a good analogy.

Think of speaking in tongues more like a creek, if you follow the creek you end up at the river, and if you follow the river it leads you to the ocean.

Once you become filled with the spirit you have a desire to experience more and more of what God has to offer.

I do agree that you can dry up...if you're not using your gifts.

But I would not consider not using your gifts and drying up to be a good thing.

All right. I can understand the Pentecostal way to the ocean. Fire Baptism and Tongues then truly are essential to the Pentecostal way, are they not?

[CID_0687]

All right. I can understand the Pentecostal way to the ocean. Fire Baptism and Tongues then truly are essential to the Pentecostal way, are they not?
Verily. :D

But as previously stated, there are many within the Pentecostal church who have not yet experienced the Baptism or the gift of tongues.

[mgifford]

All right. I can understand the Pentecostal way to the ocean. Fire Baptism and Tongues then truly are essential to the Pentecostal way, are they not?

Meri, there's one comment I have to make here about Pentecostalism. When a believer is "gloriously saved" and then is willing to give up all for the rest of his/her life for Jesus....then the "Baptism" comes as natural as can be.

It's so natural that others just wish there were a gift for them as wonderful. IOW, it's the way it's supposed to be for ALL believers until Jesus comes. Sort of like eating and drinking to live. When it happens, the questions don't start but subside. I don't think any of us has displayed the importance and usefulness of it. AMEN

[Meriweather]

Shucks, I can google, cut and paste someone else's thoughts WAY quicker than you can type out your own original thoughts. :mrgreen:

I am not a mystic, nor is it my wish to be one, or at least, not exactly. First of all, I know my own limitations; secondly, it is extremely difficult to understand, let along put into practice in my present day-to-day life. Still, along the way, there are principles involved that have proved astonishingly helpful. What frustrates me to know end, however, is that even the bits I come to understand, I can't put any more clearly than John who says things like, "Love to be unknown both by yourself and by others."

[RayMan]

and
<snip>
I understand that Fire Baptism and speaking in Tongues is a good thing. I've also heard it said that speaking in Tongues is one of the lesser gifts of the Spirit.
<snip>

Let's say you have found a nice little oasis in the desert and let's call it, Speaking in Tongues. You still know about the ocean, The Greater Gifts, because scripture tells you speaking in Tongues is one of the lesser gifts.

<snip>

So I am asking: Is it possible that Speaking in Tongues (a lesser gift) could become a hindrance in developing one's spirituality? It is filling, it is nourishing--but does it keep one from venturing too far from this oasis?



<snip>



Hi Meri,
Need to correct you on three things you wrote since they are not in harmony with Paul's writings.

1. Just because somebody told you tongues is a "lesser gift" doesn't make it so.

2. The scriptures do not call tongues a lesser gift.

3. Not only is tongues not a lesser gift, it has been given to the church for the express purpose of building up the spiritual life of the believer.

The scripture you are probably thinking of is located in 1 Cor 14 and does not call tongues a lesser gift. Looking at the context it is very plain that Paul is saying that the person who prophesies in a public service is "greater" or more edifying to the congregation than one who speaks in tongues without interpretation.
--------------------------

1 Cor 14:4 He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church. 5 I would that ye all spake with tongues, but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.

[Meriweather]

Meri, there's one comment I have to make here about Pentecostalism. When a believer is "gloriously saved" and then is willing to give up all for the rest of his/her life for Jesus....then the "Baptism" comes as natural as can be.

It's so natural that others just wish there were a gift for them as wonderful. IOW, it's the way it's supposed to be for ALL believers until Jesus comes. Sort of like eating and drinking to live. When it happens, the questions don't start but subside. I don't think any of us has displayed the importance and usefulness of it. AMEN

This is beautifully stated. Thank you.

[Meriweather]

Hi Meri,
Need to correct you on three things you wrote since they are not in harmony with Paul's writings.

1. Just because somebody told you tongues is a "lesser gift" doesn't make it so.

2. The scriptures do not call tongues a lesser gift.

3. Not only is tongues not a lesser gift, it has been given to the church for the express purpose of building up the spiritual life of the believer.

The scripture you are probably thinking of is located in 1 Cor 14 and does not call tongues a lesser gift. Looking at the context it is very plain that Paul is saying that the person who prophesies in a public service is "greater" or more edifying to the congregation than one who speaks in tongues without interpretation.
--------------------------

1 Cor 14:4 He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church. 5 I would that ye all spake with tongues, but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.


I seem to have gotten the two types of Tongues mixed again.

One is the holy language used for prayer, which would not be considered a lesser gift?

The other is used for prophesying, and while that is good, being able to interpret what is said in Tongues is the greater?

If so, I think I have these concepts straight again; I had been thinking in terms of prayer, not prophesying. Thank you for the correction, and I'll try to remember it better for the future.

[JenT]

Well I'm not a "Pentecostal" but I do speak in tongues, and to me not speaking in tongues would feel very similar to breathing through a straw.

On God's side of it though I think it's a lot more than that. And by side, to me the whole thing with speaking in tongues is an interaction with Him.

That might not fit in with "Pentecostalism" though, is that a denomination or a description? I'm a little confused on that...

[Meriweather]

Well I'm not a "Pentecostal" but I do speak in tongues, and to me not speaking in tongues would feel very similar to breathing through a straw.

On God's side of it though I think it's a lot more than that. And by side, to me the whole thing with speaking in tongues is an interaction with Him.

That might not fit in with "Pentecostalism" though, is that a denomination or a description? I'm a little confused on that...

I'll take this as a quiz and CID, Ray, or Mgifford can correct it. Let's see what I've learned.

Pentecostals are a denomination that began in the early 1900s.

[CID_0687]

Well I'm not a "Pentecostal" but I do speak in tongues, and to me not speaking in tongues would feel very similar to breathing through a straw.

On God's side of it though I think it's a lot more than that. And by side, to me the whole thing with speaking in tongues is an interaction with Him.

That might not fit in with "Pentecostalism" though, is that a denomination or a description? I'm a little confused on that...
Pentecostal is a description, more so than it is a denomination.

There are hundreds of Pentecostal denominations; Probably the largest Trinitarian denomination would be the Assemblies of God, and the largest Oneness denomination would be the United Pentecostal Church. But there are many many more.

Pentecostalism is the belief that the events described in the Book of Acts on the Day of Pentecost still hold true for today. The belief in the Gifts of the Spirit as described by Paul. Holy Spirit Baptism, and things such as this....this is by no means a complete definition, I'll see if I can find the posts where I addressed this earlier in the thread.

[JenT]

Pentecostal is a description, more so than it is a denomination.

There are hundreds of Pentecostal denominations; Probably the largest Trinitarian denomination would be the Assemblies of God, and the largest Oneness denomination would be the United Pentecostal Church. But there are many many more.

Pentecostalism is the belief that the events described in the Book of Acts on the Day of Pentecost still hold true for today. The belief in the Gifts of the Spirit as described by Paul. Holy Spirit Baptism, and things such as this....this is by no means a complete definition, I'll see if I can find the posts where I addressed this earlier in the thread.

THANKS Cid! I was wondering if I fit that description or not

So does that mean I'm a Pentecostalist and can answer questions as though I know anything? :))

[CID_0687]

You would find that Pentecostals, for the most part, do line up with what the word of God teaches, in their doctrine. I say for the most part because there are extremists in every faith, or denomination. And if we don't then as Ray has pointed out, that 600 million people who are being led astray...Would God allow that many people to follow a false doctrine? I think not. Below I am posting the Doctrinal Exegesis from the International Pentecostal Holiness Church, perhaps this will help many of you understand what we believe. Each denomination within Pentecostalism has a different Statement of Faith, but the core values and beliefs are basically the same.

Repentance

Repentance (Gr. metanoia-from meta-with, and noos- mind-something done with the whole mind).

Mind, as thus viewed, embraces the spirit, with particular reference to the conscience and will, and denotes a decision made which changes the desires, views, attitude, purpose, and conduct of one's life. Truth inwardly applied produces conviction for sin; conscience awakened by conviction demands a change; and the will mightily influenced by the conscience in view of the judgment is moved to change the whole life. Metanoia signifies a whole life repentance-a lifetime forsaking of sin, and not a mere momentary act day by day.

Repentance is not "godly sorrow for sin," but "godly sorrow," which is produced by a display of the goodness of God that leads to repentance (Romans 2:4; 2 Corinthians 7:10). Repentance puts the heart in a position to believe.

Faith

Faith is the result of divine persuasion effected by the promises of God. It includes confidence and trust. The promises, "exceeding great and precious," express the faithfulness of God in the heart thus persuaded: confidence is begotten, trust is inspired.

"The promises are yea [established] and amen [fulfilled] in him"-the Christ. He, by them, is the "originator of faith" in the heart (Hebrews 12:2).

Confidence in and reliance [trust] upon Christ, the act of faith following repentance, brings to the heart the realization of the forgiveness of sins. Faith grows by the same process that gives it birth-the promises of God, centered in Christ, and fulfilled by Him. He is the finisher [perfecter] of faith.

Justification

Justification is the act of God, as the infinite Judge, pronouncing the penitent believing soul free from the condemnation of His righteous law. It is preceded by forgiveness and followed by regeneration. Forgiveness removes the guilt of sin; justification lifts the condemnation caused by those sins from the soul. The just God makes the soul just and upholds His just laws. His law is righteous, and the trusting soul being made just is also made righteous by the same act. Both are one. Justification and righteousness come from the same word in the original. The "righteousness of the law is fulfilled in them who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit" (Romans 8:4). Justification opens the way for the heart's regeneration. The penitent believer is rightly related to law and justified by it through faith. The law endorses him because he is in Christ. Forgiveness, justification, and regeneration are not identical, but they all take place at the same time. The three are simultaneously received by the same act of faith.

Regeneration

Regeneration (Gr. polingenesia: polin-again; genesia- generation). This means "to be generated again." Generation is derived from it; also Genesis. We prefix the particle re (which means again) to generation and have regeneration, which means to be "second born" or "reborn." We term this work the "new birth" or "born again." The particle re, as prefixed to generation, has for its antecedent, not the natural birth, but the birth of the first man in Eden. Adam was not created, but generated. The term creation is used to denote the making of man as he came from God, but it was an act of divine generation. "We are his offspring," as said the apostle on Mars' Hill. If we are "the offspring of God," then the first man was His offspring, or "generated son." He lost that birth, and became a son of Satan, the serpent deceiver.

Every human being was potentially generated with Adam and put into the body or materiality as he was. As he fell, all fell in him and with him. All lost this divine birth. All were in the Second Adam-Christ-on the Cross, and in Him were born potentially the second time. That second birth on Calvary is reproduced in us by the Spirit. This is the polingenesia- "second birth"-that Jesus taught Nicodemus (John 3:3) must take place in him. We are made conscious of the "Calvary birth" in the "regeneration," effected by the Holy Spirit.

Pardon and justification make a change in all life's relationships. Regeneration is a change in state; that is, our inner nature. Being dead in sins, we are quickened to life by the impartation of the resurrection life of the glorified Christ. "He is our life," and in regeneration we begin to live in and by Him.

Adoption

Adoption is an act of God the Father, dealing with the "born one" (Gr. huiothesia from huios-sons, thesia-placing-son placing). The Father receives the regenerated one from the hand of His beloved Son, and places him in His heavenly household. Jesus the first-born Son-the Elder Brother-by virtue of the Father's act of adoption, assigned to the newly acknowledged Son His work and service in the heavenly family, or kingdom. Jesus, as the "first begotten from the dead" has the "preeminence among the brethren" (Colossians 1:18), and by the appointment of the Father, has complete control of all the heavenly household; therefore, He gives to each one in the "household" his individual work. The Father, in accepting the "newly born" into His family, "sends forth the Spirit of His first-born Son into the heart of the adopted son" making him a "joint-heir with Christ." The Spirit of the first-born Son put into the heart of the "newly-born" is the witnessing Spirit assuring him of his salvation and sonship.

Sanctification

The derivation of this word, from root to stem in both Hebrew and Greek languages (the original languages in which the Word of God was first written) may help to some extent in the definition of its meaning, but is not sufficient to set forth the vast scope of truth embraced by the word as used in both Old and New Testaments. The historico-ethical revelation of the word as connected with the manifestation of Jehovah to the patriarchs, to Israel, the elect nation, and to and through Jesus Christ in fullness, is the only way by which the full knowledge of the word as to its meaning can be obtained.

Kadesh is the Hebrew word for sanctification and its equivalents. Its verbal stem is derived from the root dash which primarily signifies to "break forth shiningly" (Cremer's Lexicon). The word in the Greek which was used to translate kadesh is hagios. The 70 men appointed from among the Jews to translate the Hebrew Scriptures into the Greek language, known historically as the Septuagint, in B. C. 287, used hagios in translating kadesh into that language.

The first instance of the use of kadesh is in Genesis 2:3: "And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it." The day "broke forth shiningly" in its sanctification.

The word next occurs in Exodus 3:5: "Draw not nigh ... put off thy shoes ... for the place whereon thou standest is holy ground." In the bush of fire "God broke forth shiningly" and His radiance hallowed the ground where Moses stood, making it holy. The holy flame that burned upon the bush and consumed it not was a type and prophecy of God's future manifestation to Israel and His method of dealing with them.

This manifestation was clearer and more abundant in Christ Jesus who was the effulgence of his Father's glory (Hebrews 1:3). It also characterizes the fullness of the work of the Holy Ghost. From the root and stem significance of the Hebrew word kadesh and its equivalent in Greek, we learn by its historic development that holiness ( "that which breaks forth shiningly") is the fundamental essence and perfection of God's being in infinite fullness. He embodies all holiness absolutely. There is none outside and independent of Him. Everything is holy as related to Him. On the basis of, and to the extent of this constituted relationship, we are holy.

We now come to consider holiness in the sphere of relationship. The Hebrew and Greek terms, as defined above in relation to God, take on other shades of meaning in the sphere of divine relationships. As applied to persons and things, it signifies to be solely and completely devoted to a divine service. "Every devoted thing in Israel shall be holy" (see Leviticus 27:28). This devotion is necessarily preceded by a separation from everything in the previous life. This separation covers all sins and sinning, and all inherited sin-the old man-since sin in all forms is of no service to God. The former separation is done in repentance and the latter in crucifixion. This crucifixion is wrought in the heart of the one who is alive to God; that is, the regenerated. Separation from all the former life, inward and outward, places us in the position to be forever devoted to God.

The original word signifies divine appropriation as a result of the act of devotion. This appropriation makes us holy. Then begins the "breaking forth shiningly" of the sanctification of the divine Being wrought within us. We become luminaries in the world. The holiness of God shines in us to the degree of our relationship to Him.
__________________

[CID_0687]

Continued from previous post

Pentecost

Pentecost (Gr. pentecoste-fiftieth day) has for its antecedent the "Feast of Weeks," called also the "Feast of Harvest," one of the seven feasts that Israel was commanded by the Lord to observe annually. There are three feasts to be observed in the beginning of the spring season: Passover, Unleavened Bread, and the Feast of First-Fruits. Following the night of the Passover Feast, they began to observe the Feast of Unleavened Bread which lasted one week. During this week the Feast of First-Fruits was held, which lasted but one day, or a part of a day. That day was the "morrow after the Sabbath" of the Unleavened Bread Feast, corresponding to our Sunday. From that Sabbath of the Feast of Unleavened Bread, Israel was commanded to number seven Sabbaths (which would make the seventh Sabbath the forty-ninth day), and on the morrow after the seventh Sabbath, Israel was commanded to observe the Feast of Weeks, or Feast of Harvest, which would be a feast on the fiftieth day.

Hence, from the Feast of the First-Fruits to the Feast of Weeks, fifty days intervened. The Feast of Weeks or Harvest was also a First-Fruit Feast-the second-so that between the two was a period of fifty days. The first of these feasts pointed to the resurrection of Christ and the second to the outpouring of the Holy Ghost, as in Acts 2. Christ died on the day the Passover was killed and was raised from the dead on the day of the offering of the sheaf of the first-fruits. He continued on the earth forty days, and then, ascended to heaven.

The apostles, by Christ's command, returned from the Mount of Olives where they saw the Christ depart from earth, and in the upper room with over one hundred other believers, began tarrying for the fulfillment of the "promise of the Father" which the Christ assured them would be given "not many days hence." They sought and waited ten days. The tenth day was the fiftieth day after the resurrection of the Christ. On that day the old Feast of Harvest was observed. And at the hour that the Priest offered the two loaves "according to the law," the Holy Ghost fell upon the upper room waiters, "and they were all filled with the Holy Spirit."

Pentecoste was the Greek name for the Jewish Feast of Weeks, or Harvest, held on the fiftieth day. The last letter of the original word was dropped and so we have our word pentecost. The original pentecoste literally means, fiftieth, as a number. "And when the day of Pentecost [pentecoste] was fully come" (Acts 2:1), the Holy Spirit was given in fullness to the 120 in the Jerusalem "upper room."

Pentecost now refers to the baptism of the Holy Spirit and not to any special day. His coming was the beginning of the indwelling of God the Father, Son, and Spirit in the hearts of believers and in the New Testament Church.

God (Hebrew Elohim) as a name signifies uni-plurality-the unity of more than one personality. The Trinity (tri-unity) is implied in the name. However, we say God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit. Not three Gods, but one God with three personalities, co-existing in unity.

The coming of God the Holy Spirit to dwell in believers meant the coming of God the Son and God the Father, at the same time. Pentecost is the indwelling of the adorable Trinity in individual believers and in the Church of the New Testament dispensation. This is the great distinguishing feature of the pentecostal baptism of the Holy Ghost. The Comforter was given to dwell in the hearts of the crucified-fully cleansed- believers. "And ye are clean-cleansed every whit-but not all" (John 13:10). The statement "not all," referred to Judas the betrayer, "Now ye are clean [cleansed, purified] through the word which I have spoken to you" (John 15:3). These statements were made before the Day of Pentecost. The washing of the disciples' feet was a symbol of the inner cleansing of their hearts, and the statement "ye are clean every whit" was made at that time and place.

The "upper room" company, while tarrying ten days for the "enduement from on high," was continuously "praising and blessing God." This is a fine specimen of a genuine holiness meeting. "They were all with one accord in one place" during the ten days' waiting, which gave evidence of heart purity as a preparation for the pentecostal baptism.

Divine Healing

Divine healing, as we teach and believe, is altogether a product of the atoning merit of Christ's sacrifice on the cross. "Himself took our infirmities, and bare our sicknesses" (Matthew 8:17), and "with his stripes we are healed" (Isaiah 53:5). This healing is wrought solely by the application of the atonement to the body, through faith alone. The Holy Spirit applies the efficacy of the blood of healing to the sick and afflicted body, or parts, which in fact, is the impartation of the resurrected life of the glorified Christ. This is direct divine healing, effected by the divine Being in response to faith alone.

The law of recovery is written in all creation, and also in our bodies, since they are an essential part of creation. This law operates according to its relation to the infinite law of all creation as upheld and directed by the Creator. Healing is a part of the benefits flowing out of this law of recovery, and it may be termed the healing of natural law.

The earth is under the curse of the violation of the Edenic Covenant by the sin of the first man, "As lord over all the works of God's hands." And this curse has caused a thousand disturbances in the movement of natural law. An abnormal condition prevails, largely throughout this mundane sphere. These abnormal disturbances force the law of creation as related to earth, to work destruction in the natural. They interfere with the operation of the law of recovery so that complete restoration is rarely ever fully attained. Physicians depend upon this law of recovery to restore health, and as far as they know this law, they endeavor to have the patient adjusted to its operation. Remedial agencies can be beneficial only insofar as they assist in making this law of recovery normal in its operation.

It may be that the Holy Spirit, at times, elevates and accelerates this law of recovery so that it is made, thereby, a channel of healing. If so, this is an act of divine healing, but not on an equality with the healing of Calvary's sacrifice. Natural means viewed as a product of the law of recovery are not to be despised. Neither are we to look upon their use as sinful on the part of believers in Christ. The healing of Calvary's stream is the "better way," and the way to secure complete and permanent healing of all sickness and diseases.

Coming of the Lord

The word millennium is the name for the Latin numeral 1,000. The Greek is kiliad or chiliad, as it is more frequently spelled in English. Both are used in the discussion of the coming reign of Christ. His coming is premillennial, as we teach. "Pre " means before, and His coming will be before the millennium shall begin. We mean His coming "with all the saints " will be the event that shall inaugurate the millennial (one thousand years) reign of Christ on earth.

That period will be preliminary and preparatory in purpose. It is preliminary to the final and absolute regeneration of all that belongs to this mundane creation. It is preparatory to the reign of Christ as it will subjugate absolutely everything to the will of the Father, by destroying all enmities, animosities, and every possible degree of rebellion against the royal will of God. When this is done, the eternity of the kingdom will be fully inaugurated. Ineffable glories, surpassing all finite conception, will fill the earth as the waters cover the sea.

All the saints look for, long for, and pray for the coming of Christ, as that which is "nigh at hand." A thousand signs and events proclaim and signify the immediate end of this present age. The Great Tribulation shadows are visible now on the earth, and the first event of the Second Advent program may occur at any moment. Amen. Even so, come Lord Jesus.

[CID_0687]

Continued...

Resurrection

Resurrection (Gr. [1] anastasis, from ana-again, and stasis-to stand up again; [2] egerio, to raise up) means to raise up anything, such as (a) a building, (b) a savior, (c) to awaken from sleep.

Resurrection is the "standing up again" of that which has fallen-that bringing to life that which has fallen to death. That which went down in death is raised up again to life.

The resurrection of Christ is both a proof and example of the resurrection. He had a real material human body, the same as all other human beings on earth. "He was born of a [mortal] woman," who descended from David the king, through his son Nathan, a full brother of Solomon; therefore, He was born of the "seed of David according to the flesh"; also of the "seed of Abraham," and the "seed of Adam," through whom "death passed upon all the human race." All the seed of Adam proceeded from him after he had fallen in sin, under death.

Therefore Christ lived in a mortal body subject to suffering and death. He died "under sin"- "unto sin"-an atoning death for sin in the body, and this being "finished," He "dropped out" of the mortal body on the cross. The same body that hung on the cross was laid in the tomb, and the same body that lay in the tomb was the body that came forth in the resurrection "on the third day." Thus, His resurrection is proof of our resurrection. His being raised from the dead is infallible proof of resurrection as a fact. The manner of His coming forth illustrates the way the saints shall come forth. The same body that each one left in death will be the same that shall be raised, and all will "enter their own body" as Christ did His.

Rewards

Existence is eternal. Things existing can never cease to exist. Change of form and places may occur, but this is not annihilation. Eternal existence is not identical with immortality. The latter is a condition of the former, and commensurate with it. "[Christ] only hath immortality, dwelling in light which no man can approach unto" (1 Timothy 6:16). "[He is] the resurrection, and the [immortal] life" (John 11:25).

Believers are to seek, by well doing, "glory and honor and immortality" (which is, "eternal life," or the "life of the ages of the ages"). They are not to seek eternal existence, as that is already a fact, since we can never cease to be. But they are to "seek for glory, honor and immortality," as Christ alone "hath immortality," which is synonymous with the eternity of life in "the ages of the ages" to come.

The unconditionally lost in the ages of the ages to come will exist in a state of everlasting death, which can have no end. They shall have "shame and everlasting contempt" (Daniel 12:2), but not "life and immortality," as that marks the state of the glorified saints in heaven, "unto the ages of the ages." At the great judgment to come, the wicked depart into everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels (the "lake of fire" which is the "second death"), but the righteous enter into "life eternal" or infinite immortality in the glory in which the eternal God dwells into all eternities. -Written by Bishop J. H. King (1945)

[CID_0687]

THANKS Cid! I was wondering if I fit that description or not

So does that mean I'm a Pentecostalist and can answer questions as though I know anything? :))
I don't know what this Pentecostalist is that you speak of.

But if you believe in the things which have been described you may in fact be a Pentecostal...or a Charismatic as some like to be called.

[mgifford]

The Baptism in the HS.

Foretold Eze 36:25.
Is through Christ Tit 3:6.
Christ administered Mt 3:11; Joh 1:33.
Promised to saints Ac 1:5; 2:38,39; 11:16.
All saints partake of 1Co 12:13.
Necessity for Joh 3:5; Ac 19:2-6.
Renews and cleanses the soul Tit 3:5; 1Pe 3:20,21.
The Word of God instrumental to Ac 10:44; Eph 5:26.
Typified Ac 2:1-4.

[JenT]

Continued...

Resurrection

Resurrection (Gr. [1] anastasis, from ana-again, and stasis-to stand up again; [2] egerio, to raise up) means to raise up anything, such as (a) a building, (b) a savior, (c) to awaken from sleep.

Resurrection is the "standing up again" of that which has fallen-that bringing to life that which has fallen to death. That which went down in death is raised up again to life.

The resurrection of Christ is both a proof and example of the resurrection. He had a real material human body, the same as all other human beings on earth. "He was born of a [mortal] woman," who descended from David the king, through his son Nathan, a full brother of Solomon; therefore, He was born of the "seed of David according to the flesh"; also of the "seed of Abraham," and the "seed of Adam," through whom "death passed upon all the human race." All the seed of Adam proceeded from him after he had fallen in sin, under death.

Therefore Christ lived in a mortal body subject to suffering and death. He died "under sin"- "unto sin"-an atoning death for sin in the body, and this being "finished," He "dropped out" of the mortal body on the cross. The same body that hung on the cross was laid in the tomb, and the same body that lay in the tomb was the body that came forth in the resurrection "on the third day." Thus, His resurrection is proof of our resurrection. His being raised from the dead is infallible proof of resurrection as a fact. The manner of His coming forth illustrates the way the saints shall come forth. The same body that each one left in death will be the same that shall be raised, and all will "enter their own body" as Christ did His.

Rewards

Existence is eternal. Things existing can never cease to exist. Change of form and places may occur, but this is not annihilation. Eternal existence is not identical with immortality. The latter is a condition of the former, and commensurate with it. "[Christ] only hath immortality, dwelling in light which no man can approach unto" (1 Timothy 6:16). "[He is] the resurrection, and the [immortal] life" (John 11:25).

Believers are to seek, by well doing, "glory and honor and immortality" (which is, "eternal life," or the "life of the ages of the ages"). They are not to seek eternal existence, as that is already a fact, since we can never cease to be. But they are to "seek for glory, honor and immortality," as Christ alone "hath immortality," which is synonymous with the eternity of life in "the ages of the ages" to come.

The unconditionally lost in the ages of the ages to come will exist in a state of everlasting death, which can have no end. They shall have "shame and everlasting contempt" (Daniel 12:2), but not "life and immortality," as that marks the state of the glorified saints in heaven, "unto the ages of the ages." At the great judgment to come, the wicked depart into everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels (the "lake of fire" which is the "second death"), but the righteous enter into "life eternal" or infinite immortality in the glory in which the eternal God dwells into all eternities. -Written by Bishop J. H. King (1945)

Thank you Cid! I'll have to print it up and read it

[RayMan]

I am not a mystic, nor is it my wish to be one, or at least, not exactly. First of all, I know my own limitations; secondly, it is extremely difficult to understand, let along put into practice in my present day-to-day life. Still, along the way, there are principles involved that have proved astonishingly helpful. What frustrates me to know end, however, is that even the bits I come to understand, I can't put any more clearly than John who says things like, "Love to be unknown both by yourself and by others."


Would that be John Chrysostom or the Apostle John. Or someone else?

[RayMan]

I don't know what this Pentecostalist is that you speak of.

But if you believe in the things which have been described you may in fact be a Pentecostal...or a Charismatic as some like to be called.

Someone who specializes in Pentecostals?

[RayMan]

<snip>
That might not fit in with "Pentecostalism" though, is that a denomination or a description? I'm a little confused on that...

Both.

[Meriweather]

Would that be John Chrysostom or the Apostle John. Or someone else?

John of the Cross, a Carmelite brother, 1542-1591. He knew and was a contemporary of Teresa of Avila.

[CID_0687]

Thank you Cid! I'll have to print it up and read it
:)

[CID_0687]

Someone who specializes in Pentecostals?
Yeah, like a Cardiologist takes care of your heart...a Neurologist takes care of you mind...and a Pentecostalist takes care of your soul.

:dance:

[RayMan]

Yeah, like a Cardiologist takes care of your heart...a Neurologist takes care of you mind...and a Pentecostalist takes care of your soul.

:dance:

I would use spirit rather than soul, but you have the idea. :cool:

[RayMan]

John of the Cross, a Carmelite brother, 1542-1591. He knew and was a contemporary of Teresa of Avila.

The dark night of the soul guy, right?

[Meriweather]

The dark night of the soul guy, right?

Correct. Have you heard the song?

[RayMan]

Correct. Have you heard the song?

This one? Came across it while googling the phrase you used. Interesting story behind the song. Haven't heard it.
-----------------------------
My song is love unknown,
My Saviour’s love to me;
Love to the loveless shown,
That they might lovely be.
O who am I, that for my sake
My Lord should take frail flesh and die?

[JenT]

Correct. Have you heard the song?

Meri can I get your opinion about this? RayMan is being UNBELIEVABLY WRONG about it

http://forums.hannity.com/showpost.php?p=39241481&postcount=1276

[Meriweather]

Meri can I get your opinion about this? RayMan is being UNBELIEVABLY WRONG about it

http://forums.hannity.com/showpost.php?p=39241481&postcount=1276

You are asking me about bald men in the middle of the Pentecostal thread? I'm all in favor of them. But then I have to say that. I was bald until I was nearly two. Skin-baby--that was me (and one of my daughters, too).

Now, back to the Dark Night and John of the Cross, and then we will return this thread back over to the Pentecostalists. :razz:

[RayMan]

You are asking me about bald men in the middle of the Pentecostal thread? I'm all in favor of them. But then I have to say that. I was bald until I was nearly two. Skin-baby--that was me (and one of my daughters, too).

Now, back to the Dark Night and John of the Cross, and then we will return this thread back over to the Pentecostalists. :razz:


Amateurs.....pfftt...;)

[Meriweather]

This one? Came across it while googling the phrase you used. Interesting story behind the song. Haven't heard it.
-----------------------------
My song is love unknown,
My Saviour’s love to me;
Love to the loveless shown,
That they might lovely be.
O who am I, that for my sake
My Lord should take frail flesh and die?

I don't know that song. The one to which I was referring begins:

One dark night
Fired with love's urgent longings
Ah the sheer grace
In the darkness
I went out unseen
My house being all now still.

[JenT]

You are asking me about bald men in the middle of the Pentecostal thread? I'm all in favor of them. But then I have to say that. I was bald until I was nearly two. Skin-baby--that was me (and one of my daughters, too).

Now, back to the Dark Night and John of the Cross, and then we will return this thread back over to the Pentecostalists. :razz:

(psssssp, ya weren't s'posed to answer HERE! ya were s'posed to stop by there on your way out, sheesh how RUDE Meri!) :mrgreen:

[RayMan]

(psssssp, ya weren't s'posed to answer HERE! ya were s'posed to stop by there on your way out, sheesh how RUDE Meri!) :mrgreen:


You two couldn't derail a thread to save your lives. :mrgreen:

[Meriweather]

(psssssp, ya weren't s'posed to answer HERE! ya were s'posed to stop by there on your way out, sheesh how RUDE Meri!) :mrgreen:

I would not issue me a challenge, Ray. :mrgreen:

[RayMan]

I would not issue me a challenge, Ray. :mrgreen:


CID's out there somewhere Meri. Don't make me call in the big guns.















Of course, he's more of a loose cannon now that I think about it. :cool:

[CID_0687]

You two couldn't derail a thread to save your lives. :mrgreen:
Ya got that right.

Y'all are dealing with a couple of old pros...gotta get up pretty early in the morning to whoop Old Ray and me at derailment.

[Meriweather]

Ya got that right.

Y'all are dealing with a couple of old pros...gotta get up pretty early in the morning to whoop Old Ray and me at derailment.

Dear Ones, that is why it would be a piece of cake to derail this thread. All I would have to do is get you started, and then step out of the way and let it happen.

[RayMan]

Dude, she broke the code.

[CID_0687]

Dude, she broke the code.
I know right? I'm completely bumfuzzled.

[RayMan]

So in order to stop her plot to derail we have to avoid our own thread.

The woman is insidious.

[Meriweather]

So in order to stop her plot to derail we have to avoid our own thread.

The woman is insidious.

Yes, I am, because I have you either way.

If you avoid your own thread, then the way is clear for me to derail. If you don't avoid the thread, then I cause you to derail your own thread. :mrgreen:

So, are you now willing to capitulate and sign the ToS (Terms of Surrender) documents?

[CID_0687]

You know Ray, there's a simple solution to all of this.

We could both put Meri on ignore and keep talking as Pentecostalists do, and her shenanigans would fade into the mystic.

Sorry 'bout that last part...been listening to Van Morrison all day.

[RayMan]

You know Ray, there's a simple solution to all of this.

We could both put Meri on ignore and keep talking as Pentecostalists do, and her shenanigans would fade into the mystic.

Sorry 'bout that last part...been listening to Van Morrison all day.


And it stoned me to my soul
Stoned me just like jelly roll
And it stoned me
And it stoned me to my soul
Stoned me just like goin home
And it stoned me

[CID_0687]

And it stoned me to my soul
Stoned me just like jelly roll
And it stoned me
And it stoned me to my soul
Stoned me just like goin home
And it stoned me
Excellent work Brother Ray...that comes from the Moondance album along with this little gem I was referencing earlier.

We were born before the wind
Also younger than the sun
Ere the bonnie boat was won as we sailed into the mystic
Hark, now hear the sailors cry
Smell the sea and feel the sky
Let your soul and spirit fly into the mystic

And when that fog horn blows I will be coming home
And when that fog horn blows I want to hear it
I dont have to fear it
I want to rock your gypsy soul
Just like way back in the days of old
Then magnificently we will float into the mystic
And when that fog horn blows you know I will be coming home
And when thst fog horn whistle blows I got to hear it
I dont have to fear it
I want to rock your gypsy soul
Just like way back in the days of old
And together we will float into the mystic
Come on girl...

[Meriweather]

You know Ray, there's a simple solution to all of this.

We could both put Meri on ignore and keep talking as Pentecostalists do, and her shenanigans would fade into the mystic.

Sorry 'bout that last part...been listening to Van Morrison all day.


:cry: You would even consider putting me on ignore?














:)) I would have faded into the mist, but puns (especially bad ones) will draw me back every time.

[CID_0687]

:cry: You would even consider putting me on ignore?














:)) I would have faded into the mist, but puns (especially bad ones) will draw me back every time.
:hug:

You know I kid Meri!!

[JenT]

so in order to stop her plot to derail we have to avoid our own thread.

The woman is insidious.

:)) :)) :)) :)) :)) :))

[JenT]

Van Morrison? (perk) Where is lwdc? That's his song

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t0WFsnxECDU

[Meriweather]

:hug:

You know I kid Meri!!

Yes, I do. :hug:

Besides, you and Ray think of derailing a thread, which (to me) is child's play. Let me ask you this: Have either of you ever thought of derailing an entire Forum? :mrgreen:

[CID_0687]

Van Morrison? (perk) Where is lwdc? That's his song

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t0WFsnxECDU
Oh yeah, that's a great one too.

Nobody ever better than Van Morrison IMHO...To sound so bluesy, yet so jazzy, yet so rock...and to be a white boy from Ireland...now that's talent...and a heck of a composer and saxophonist as well

[CID_0687]

I do have my limits...No derailing in AAW or OO...but everything else is fair game.

I'm up to the challenge if Ray is.

[Meriweather]

I do have my limits...No derailing in AAW or OO...but everything else is fair game.

I'm up to the challenge if Ray is.

My challenge to you is to derail Trivial Pursuits into the most serious, profound Forum on Hannity--the place people flock to for intelligent discourse. Start with the Lodge, please.

[CID_0687]

My challenge to you is to derail Trivial Pursuits into the most serious, profound Forum on Hannity--the place people flock to for intelligent discourse. Start with the Lodge, please.
:eh: What do you think we do in the Lodge?

Many intellectual conversations to be had there. :D

[RayMan]

Oh yeah, that's a great one too.

Nobody ever better than Van Morrison IMHO...To sound so bluesy, yet so jazzy, yet so rock...and to be a white boy from Ireland...now that's talent...and a heck of a composer and saxophonist as well

His greatest song ever?























G-L-O-R-I-A.



BTW - I think Van is Pentecostal. Seriously.

[RayMan]

I do have my limits...No derailing in AAW or OO...but everything else is fair game.

I'm up to the challenge if Ray is.

Start with the Lodge? Yeah, good luck with that. I know FW is just a Marine - not S.F. but I ain't messin' with him.

How's about the Cruiseline instead?

[RayMan]

:eh: What do you think we do in the Lodge?

Many intellectual conversations to be had there. :D


heh

[CID_0687]

His greatest song ever?























G-L-O-R-I-A.



BTW - I think Van is Pentecostal. Seriously.
I'm thinking he is as well. Some of his songs after he came to Christ (late 70s) have some very Pentecostal overtones to them...Such as, "Did Ye Get Healed?"
"Whenever God Shines His Light" and several others.

He's very devout in his faith.

[JenT]

I do have my limits...No derailing in AAW or OO...but everything else is fair game.

I'm up to the challenge if Ray is.

Why does AAW get protection?

[JenT]

His greatest song ever?























G-L-O-R-I-A.



BTW - I think Van is Pentecostal. Seriously.

Not, Tupelo Honey after Have I told you lately...

I mean, who IS this Gloria chick anyway, and who cares?

[CID_0687]

Not, Tupelo Honey after Have I told you lately...

I mean, who IS this Gloria chick anyway, and who cares?
The entire Moondance album was awesome...As far as his earlier stuff, "Domino" is probably my favorite.

[JenT]

The entire Moondance album was awesome...As far as his earlier stuff, "Domino" is probably my favorite.

What's that one about a street and traveling the world?

I think that's the one that had original lyrics that were much more about faith

[JenT]

wow I was wrong, it was Tupelo Honey

the lyrics that rarely get sung:

There's a rose pressed inside a bible
That she reads on the balcony
She's sweet in slumber and I've got her number
For the beginning of the century.

[CID_0687]

What's that one about a street and traveling the world?

I think that's the one that had original lyrics that were much more about faith
Are you talking about St. Dominic's Preview?

[Meriweather]

:eh: What do you think we do in the Lodge?

Many intellectual conversations to be had there. :D

Good point. I have no idea what you do at the Lodge. However, I remember rumors about a discussion of Olympic gymnasts....

As I recall, the only time I was there, Fire Watch reminded me that Lee had set a precedence for banning users a Moderator found merely annoying. I left very quietly. Shhh. I've been hiding ever since.

[JenT]

Good point. I have no idea what you do at the Lodge. However, I remember rumors about a discussion of Olympic gymnasts....

As I recall, the only time I was there, Fire Watch reminded me that Lee had set a precedence for banning users a Moderator found merely annoying. I left very quietly. Shhh. I've been hiding ever since.

uh, Meri, how soon you forget...

there is still evidence that you helped redecorate the place right along with me

If I recall, new floral felt for the pool table was YOUR idea

[CID_0687]

Good point. I have no idea what you do at the Lodge. However, I remember rumors about a discussion of Olympic gymnasts....

As I recall, the only time I was there, Fire Watch reminded me that Lee had set a precedence for banning users a Moderator found merely annoying. I left very quietly. Shhh. I've been hiding ever since.
Oh yeah the Olympic Gymnast discussion...that was nice.....

That was all on count of tha malcontent. :shifty:

[vir doctus]

heh

Is that your sardonic laugh?

[CID_0687]

Here's a pretty cool song from VM...It's somewhat religious.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5zvxuHOv6D8&feature=related

[Meriweather]

uh, Meri, how soon you forget...

there is still evidence that you helped redecorate the place right along with me

If I recall, new floral felt for the pool table was YOUR idea

Yes. That was the time I was reminded of Lee's precedence.

I recall my contributions were wildflowers and a rock collection. And that I hoped that we weren't considering anything to do with taxidermy. I remember being very confused that night. As usual, one eye was in RF, and the other eye was pretending to do science lesson planning. As I recall we were studying rocks that week.

Hey, speaking of science I finally got next week's lesson plans/work finished, despite all the times I let myself be distracted here.

[RayMan]

Yes. That was the time I was reminded of Lee's precedence.

I recall my contributions were wildflowers and a rock collection. And that I hoped that we weren't considering anything to do with taxidermy. I remember being very confused that night. As usual, one eye was in RF, and the other eye was pretending to do science lesson planning. As I recall we were studying rocks that week.

Hey, speaking of science I finally got next week's lesson plans/work finished, despite all the times I let myself be distracted here.

So you got the whole rock thing figured out now?

[Meriweather]

So you got the whole rock thing figured out now?


Yep. It's really true. People in glass houses should not throw rocks. Rock 'n Roll is wonderful. You rock.

(See, I am remembering the three basic types of rocks.)

[CID_0687]

So you got the whole rock thing figured out now?
What's left to figure out about rocks? They're really hard...and they hurt if thrown at you.

[CID_0687]

Yep. It's really true. People in glass houses should not throw rocks. Rock 'n Roll is wonderful. You rock.

(See, I am remembering the three basic types of rocks.)
Just listened to my song did you?

[Meriweather]

You would find that Pentecostals, for the most part, do line up with what the word of God teaches, in their doctrine. I say for the most part because there are extremists in every faith, or denomination. And if we don't then as Ray has pointed out, that 600 million people who are being led astray...Would God allow that many people to follow a false doctrine? I think not. Below I am posting the Doctrinal Exegesis from the International Pentecostal Holiness Church, perhaps this will help many of you understand what we believe. Each denomination within Pentecostalism has a different Statement of Faith, but the core values and beliefs are basically the same.

Repentance

Repentance (Gr. metanoia-from meta-with, and noos- mind-something done with the whole mind).

Mind, as thus viewed, embraces the spirit, with particular reference to the conscience and will, and denotes a decision made which changes the desires, views, attitude, purpose, and conduct of one's life. Truth inwardly applied produces conviction for sin; conscience awakened by conviction demands a change; and the will mightily influenced by the conscience in view of the judgment is moved to change the whole life. Metanoia signifies a whole life repentance-a lifetime forsaking of sin, and not a mere momentary act day by day.

Repentance is not "godly sorrow for sin," but "godly sorrow," which is produced by a display of the goodness of God that leads to repentance (Romans 2:4; 2 Corinthians 7:10). Repentance puts the heart in a position to believe.

Faith

Faith is the result of divine persuasion effected by the promises of God. It includes confidence and trust. The promises, "exceeding great and precious," express the faithfulness of God in the heart thus persuaded: confidence is begotten, trust is inspired.

"The promises are yea [established] and amen [fulfilled] in him"-the Christ. He, by them, is the "originator of faith" in the heart (Hebrews 12:2).

Confidence in and reliance [trust] upon Christ, the act of faith following repentance, brings to the heart the realization of the forgiveness of sins. Faith grows by the same process that gives it birth-the promises of God, centered in Christ, and fulfilled by Him. He is the finisher [perfecter] of faith.

Justification

Justification is the act of God, as the infinite Judge, pronouncing the penitent believing soul free from the condemnation of His righteous law. It is preceded by forgiveness and followed by regeneration. Forgiveness removes the guilt of sin; justification lifts the condemnation caused by those sins from the soul. The just God makes the soul just and upholds His just laws. His law is righteous, and the trusting soul being made just is also made righteous by the same act. Both are one. Justification and righteousness come from the same word in the original. The "righteousness of the law is fulfilled in them who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit" (Romans 8:4). Justification opens the way for the heart's regeneration. The penitent believer is rightly related to law and justified by it through faith. The law endorses him because he is in Christ. Forgiveness, justification, and regeneration are not identical, but they all take place at the same time. The three are simultaneously received by the same act of faith.

Regeneration

Regeneration (Gr. polingenesia: polin-again; genesia- generation). This means "to be generated again." Generation is derived from it; also Genesis. We prefix the particle re (which means again) to generation and have regeneration, which means to be "second born" or "reborn." We term this work the "new birth" or "born again." The particle re, as prefixed to generation, has for its antecedent, not the natural birth, but the birth of the first man in Eden. Adam was not created, but generated. The term creation is used to denote the making of man as he came from God, but it was an act of divine generation. "We are his offspring," as said the apostle on Mars' Hill. If we are "the offspring of God," then the first man was His offspring, or "generated son." He lost that birth, and became a son of Satan, the serpent deceiver.

Every human being was potentially generated with Adam and put into the body or materiality as he was. As he fell, all fell in him and with him. All lost this divine birth. All were in the Second Adam-Christ-on the Cross, and in Him were born potentially the second time. That second birth on Calvary is reproduced in us by the Spirit. This is the polingenesia- "second birth"-that Jesus taught Nicodemus (John 3:3) must take place in him. We are made conscious of the "Calvary birth" in the "regeneration," effected by the Holy Spirit.

Pardon and justification make a change in all life's relationships. Regeneration is a change in state; that is, our inner nature. Being dead in sins, we are quickened to life by the impartation of the resurrection life of the glorified Christ. "He is our life," and in regeneration we begin to live in and by Him.

Adoption

Adoption is an act of God the Father, dealing with the "born one" (Gr. huiothesia from huios-sons, thesia-placing-son placing). The Father receives the regenerated one from the hand of His beloved Son, and places him in His heavenly household. Jesus the first-born Son-the Elder Brother-by virtue of the Father's act of adoption, assigned to the newly acknowledged Son His work and service in the heavenly family, or kingdom. Jesus, as the "first begotten from the dead" has the "preeminence among the brethren" (Colossians 1:18), and by the appointment of the Father, has complete control of all the heavenly household; therefore, He gives to each one in the "household" his individual work. The Father, in accepting the "newly born" into His family, "sends forth the Spirit of His first-born Son into the heart of the adopted son" making him a "joint-heir with Christ." The Spirit of the first-born Son put into the heart of the "newly-born" is the witnessing Spirit assuring him of his salvation and sonship.

Sanctification

The derivation of this word, from root to stem in both Hebrew and Greek languages (the original languages in which the Word of God was first written) may help to some extent in the definition of its meaning, but is not sufficient to set forth the vast scope of truth embraced by the word as used in both Old and New Testaments. The historico-ethical revelation of the word as connected with the manifestation of Jehovah to the patriarchs, to Israel, the elect nation, and to and through Jesus Christ in fullness, is the only way by which the full knowledge of the word as to its meaning can be obtained.

Kadesh is the Hebrew word for sanctification and its equivalents. Its verbal stem is derived from the root dash which primarily signifies to "break forth shiningly" (Cremer's Lexicon). The word in the Greek which was used to translate kadesh is hagios. The 70 men appointed from among the Jews to translate the Hebrew Scriptures into the Greek language, known historically as the Septuagint, in B. C. 287, used hagios in translating kadesh into that language.

The first instance of the use of kadesh is in Genesis 2:3: "And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it." The day "broke forth shiningly" in its sanctification.

The word next occurs in Exodus 3:5: "Draw not nigh ... put off thy shoes ... for the place whereon thou standest is holy ground." In the bush of fire "God broke forth shiningly" and His radiance hallowed the ground where Moses stood, making it holy. The holy flame that burned upon the bush and consumed it not was a type and prophecy of God's future manifestation to Israel and His method of dealing with them.

This manifestation was clearer and more abundant in Christ Jesus who was the effulgence of his Father's glory (Hebrews 1:3). It also characterizes the fullness of the work of the Holy Ghost. From the root and stem significance of the Hebrew word kadesh and its equivalent in Greek, we learn by its historic development that holiness ( "that which breaks forth shiningly") is the fundamental essence and perfection of God's being in infinite fullness. He embodies all holiness absolutely. There is none outside and independent of Him. Everything is holy as related to Him. On the basis of, and to the extent of this constituted relationship, we are holy.

We now come to consider holiness in the sphere of relationship. The Hebrew and Greek terms, as defined above in relation to God, take on other shades of meaning in the sphere of divine relationships. As applied to persons and things, it signifies to be solely and completely devoted to a divine service. "Every devoted thing in Israel shall be holy" (see Leviticus 27:28). This devotion is necessarily preceded by a separation from everything in the previous life. This separation covers all sins and sinning, and all inherited sin-the old man-since sin in all forms is of no service to God. The former separation is done in repentance and the latter in crucifixion. This crucifixion is wrought in the heart of the one who is alive to God; that is, the regenerated. Separation from all the former life, inward and outward, places us in the position to be forever devoted to God.

The original word signifies divine appropriation as a result of the act of devotion. This appropriation makes us holy. Then begins the "breaking forth shiningly" of the sanctification of the divine Being wrought within us. We become luminaries in the world. The holiness of God shines in us to the degree of our relationship to Him.
__________________

I have decided it is time to begin Phase I of derailing the derailment. It is this the beginning of a triad of great information, and deserves some contemplation.

I hereby repent of trying to derail the Pentecostal thread, but my challenge still stands about derailing Trivial Pursuits.

[Meriweather]

Just listened to my song did you?

:razz:

Pssst! I'm now trying to be a diligent, violation-free RF poster. Lead me not into temptation!

[RayMan]

I have decided it is time to begin Phase I of derailing the derailment. It is this the beginning of a triad of great information, and deserves some contemplation.

I hereby repent of trying to derail the Pentecostal thread, but my challenge still stands about derailing Trivial Pursuits.


We have begun our reign of terror in TP. That is what you wanted right, a reign of terror? "Cuz otherwise our pirate band has boarded the Cruise Ship in error. Jen is none the wiser so far. Argghhh.

[CID_0687]

I have decided it is time to begin Phase I of derailing the derailment. It is this the beginning of a triad of great information, and deserves some contemplation.

I hereby repent of trying to derail the Pentecostal thread, but my challenge still stands about derailing Trivial Pursuits.
How about a mutiny instead? You been on the Christian Cruiseliner lately?

[Meriweather]

Continued from previous post

Pentecost

Pentecost (Gr. pentecoste-fiftieth day) has for its antecedent the "Feast of Weeks," called also the "Feast of Harvest," one of the seven feasts that Israel was commanded by the Lord to observe annually. There are three feasts to be observed in the beginning of the spring season: Passover, Unleavened Bread, and the Feast of First-Fruits. Following the night of the Passover Feast, they began to observe the Feast of Unleavened Bread which lasted one week. During this week the Feast of First-Fruits was held, which lasted but one day, or a part of a day. That day was the "morrow after the Sabbath" of the Unleavened Bread Feast, corresponding to our Sunday. From that Sabbath of the Feast of Unleavened Bread, Israel was commanded to number seven Sabbaths (which would make the seventh Sabbath the forty-ninth day), and on the morrow after the seventh Sabbath, Israel was commanded to observe the Feast of Weeks, or Feast of Harvest, which would be a feast on the fiftieth day.

Hence, from the Feast of the First-Fruits to the Feast of Weeks, fifty days intervened. The Feast of Weeks or Harvest was also a First-Fruit Feast-the second-so that between the two was a period of fifty days. The first of these feasts pointed to the resurrection of Christ and the second to the outpouring of the Holy Ghost, as in Acts 2. Christ died on the day the Passover was killed and was raised from the dead on the day of the offering of the sheaf of the first-fruits. He continued on the earth forty days, and then, ascended to heaven.

The apostles, by Christ's command, returned from the Mount of Olives where they saw the Christ depart from earth, and in the upper room with over one hundred other believers, began tarrying for the fulfillment of the "promise of the Father" which the Christ assured them would be given "not many days hence." They sought and waited ten days. The tenth day was the fiftieth day after the resurrection of the Christ. On that day the old Feast of Harvest was observed. And at the hour that the Priest offered the two loaves "according to the law," the Holy Ghost fell upon the upper room waiters, "and they were all filled with the Holy Spirit."

Pentecoste was the Greek name for the Jewish Feast of Weeks, or Harvest, held on the fiftieth day. The last letter of the original word was dropped and so we have our word pentecost. The original pentecoste literally means, fiftieth, as a number. "And when the day of Pentecost [pentecoste] was fully come" (Acts 2:1), the Holy Spirit was given in fullness to the 120 in the Jerusalem "upper room."

Pentecost now refers to the baptism of the Holy Spirit and not to any special day. His coming was the beginning of the indwelling of God the Father, Son, and Spirit in the hearts of believers and in the New Testament Church.

God (Hebrew Elohim) as a name signifies uni-plurality-the unity of more than one personality. The Trinity (tri-unity) is implied in the name. However, we say God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit. Not three Gods, but one God with three personalities, co-existing in unity.

The coming of God the Holy Spirit to dwell in believers meant the coming of God the Son and God the Father, at the same time. Pentecost is the indwelling of the adorable Trinity in individual believers and in the Church of the New Testament dispensation. This is the great distinguishing feature of the pentecostal baptism of the Holy Ghost. The Comforter was given to dwell in the hearts of the crucified-fully cleansed- believers. "And ye are clean-cleansed every whit-but not all" (John 13:10). The statement "not all," referred to Judas the betrayer, "Now ye are clean [cleansed, purified] through the word which I have spoken to you" (John 15:3). These statements were made before the Day of Pentecost. The washing of the disciples' feet was a symbol of the inner cleansing of their hearts, and the statement "ye are clean every whit" was made at that time and place.

The "upper room" company, while tarrying ten days for the "enduement from on high," was continuously "praising and blessing God." This is a fine specimen of a genuine holiness meeting. "They were all with one accord in one place" during the ten days' waiting, which gave evidence of heart purity as a preparation for the pentecostal baptism.

Divine Healing

Divine healing, as we teach and believe, is altogether a product of the atoning merit of Christ's sacrifice on the cross. "Himself took our infirmities, and bare our sicknesses" (Matthew 8:17), and "with his stripes we are healed" (Isaiah 53:5). This healing is wrought solely by the application of the atonement to the body, through faith alone. The Holy Spirit applies the efficacy of the blood of healing to the sick and afflicted body, or parts, which in fact, is the impartation of the resurrected life of the glorified Christ. This is direct divine healing, effected by the divine Being in response to faith alone.

The law of recovery is written in all creation, and also in our bodies, since they are an essential part of creation. This law operates according to its relation to the infinite law of all creation as upheld and directed by the Creator. Healing is a part of the benefits flowing out of this law of recovery, and it may be termed the healing of natural law.

The earth is under the curse of the violation of the Edenic Covenant by the sin of the first man, "As lord over all the works of God's hands." And this curse has caused a thousand disturbances in the movement of natural law. An abnormal condition prevails, largely throughout this mundane sphere. These abnormal disturbances force the law of creation as related to earth, to work destruction in the natural. They interfere with the operation of the law of recovery so that complete restoration is rarely ever fully attained. Physicians depend upon this law of recovery to restore health, and as far as they know this law, they endeavor to have the patient adjusted to its operation. Remedial agencies can be beneficial only insofar as they assist in making this law of recovery normal in its operation.

It may be that the Holy Spirit, at times, elevates and accelerates this law of recovery so that it is made, thereby, a channel of healing. If so, this is an act of divine healing, but not on an equality with the healing of Calvary's sacrifice. Natural means viewed as a product of the law of recovery are not to be despised. Neither are we to look upon their use as sinful on the part of believers in Christ. The healing of Calvary's stream is the "better way," and the way to secure complete and permanent healing of all sickness and diseases.

Coming of the Lord

The word millennium is the name for the Latin numeral 1,000. The Greek is kiliad or chiliad, as it is more frequently spelled in English. Both are used in the discussion of the coming reign of Christ. His coming is premillennial, as we teach. "Pre " means before, and His coming will be before the millennium shall begin. We mean His coming "with all the saints " will be the event that shall inaugurate the millennial (one thousand years) reign of Christ on earth.

That period will be preliminary and preparatory in purpose. It is preliminary to the final and absolute regeneration of all that belongs to this mundane creation. It is preparatory to the reign of Christ as it will subjugate absolutely everything to the will of the Father, by destroying all enmities, animosities, and every possible degree of rebellion against the royal will of God. When this is done, the eternity of the kingdom will be fully inaugurated. Ineffable glories, surpassing all finite conception, will fill the earth as the waters cover the sea.

All the saints look for, long for, and pray for the coming of Christ, as that which is "nigh at hand." A thousand signs and events proclaim and signify the immediate end of this present age. The Great Tribulation shadows are visible now on the earth, and the first event of the Second Advent program may occur at any moment. Amen. Even so, come Lord Jesus.


One God with three personalities?

I believe this is the first I've read about the Law of Recovery. I wouldn't mind learning more about this.

[RayMan]

One God with three personalities?

I believe this is the first I've read about the Law of Recovery. I wouldn't mind learning more about this.

If you haven't been over to Constantine's Ask an Orthodox Christian thread you should swing by. Some really good stuff he's sharing there.

[Meriweather]

How about a mutiny instead? You been on the Christian Cruiseliner lately?

Jen referred me to a single post about bald men that I believe originated there. Before that Foghorn Leghorn, alias RayMan (or is that RayMan, alias Foghorn Leghorn) was saying I was about as sharp as a sack of wet mice.

Mutiny? I be suddenly sad. Before I was banned from the site that shalt not be named, we were playing pirates. Sigh. (They banned me for being annoying.)

[Meriweather]

If you haven't been over to Constantine's Ask an Orthodox Christian thread you should swing by. Some really good stuff he's sharing there.

Yes, I've been following it closely.

[CID_0687]

Jen referred me to a single post about bald men that I believe originated there. Before that Foghorn Leghorn, alias RayMan (or is that RayMan, alias Foghorn Leghorn) was saying I was about as sharp as a sack of wet mice.

Mutiny? I be suddenly sad. Before I was banned from the site that shalt not be named, we were playing pirates. Sigh. (They banned me for being annoying.)
That's what you get for playing at Daily KOS....

[Meriweather]

That's what you get for playing at Daily KOS....

:)) If O'Reilly gets word you are equating his site to the Daily KOS, you will want to head for those Kentucky hills.

[CID_0687]

:)) If O'Reilly gets word you are equating his site to the Daily KOS, you will want to head for those Kentucky hills.
Wow, you got kicked off of O'Riely's site...I thought you had to pay to be on those forums.

[Meriweather]

Continued...

Resurrection

Resurrection (Gr. [1] anastasis, from ana-again, and stasis-to stand up again; [2] egerio, to raise up) means to raise up anything, such as (a) a building, (b) a savior, (c) to awaken from sleep.

Resurrection is the "standing up again" of that which has fallen-that bringing to life that which has fallen to death. That which went down in death is raised up again to life.

The resurrection of Christ is both a proof and example of the resurrection. He had a real material human body, the same as all other human beings on earth. "He was born of a [mortal] woman," who descended from David the king, through his son Nathan, a full brother of Solomon; therefore, He was born of the "seed of David according to the flesh"; also of the "seed of Abraham," and the "seed of Adam," through whom "death passed upon all the human race." All the seed of Adam proceeded from him after he had fallen in sin, under death.

Therefore Christ lived in a mortal body subject to suffering and death. He died "under sin"- "unto sin"-an atoning death for sin in the body, and this being "finished," He "dropped out" of the mortal body on the cross. The same body that hung on the cross was laid in the tomb, and the same body that lay in the tomb was the body that came forth in the resurrection "on the third day." Thus, His resurrection is proof of our resurrection. His being raised from the dead is infallible proof of resurrection as a fact. The manner of His coming forth illustrates the way the saints shall come forth. The same body that each one left in death will be the same that shall be raised, and all will "enter their own body" as Christ did His.

Rewards

Existence is eternal. Things existing can never cease to exist. Change of form and places may occur, but this is not annihilation. Eternal existence is not identical with immortality. The latter is a condition of the former, and commensurate with it. "[Christ] only hath immortality, dwelling in light which no man can approach unto" (1 Timothy 6:16). "[He is] the resurrection, and the [immortal] life" (John 11:25).

Believers are to seek, by well doing, "glory and honor and immortality" (which is, "eternal life," or the "life of the ages of the ages"). They are not to seek eternal existence, as that is already a fact, since we can never cease to be. But they are to "seek for glory, honor and immortality," as Christ alone "hath immortality," which is synonymous with the eternity of life in "the ages of the ages" to come.

The unconditionally lost in the ages of the ages to come will exist in a state of everlasting death, which can have no end. They shall have "shame and everlasting contempt" (Daniel 12:2), but not "life and immortality," as that marks the state of the glorified saints in heaven, "unto the ages of the ages." At the great judgment to come, the wicked depart into everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels (the "lake of fire" which is the "second death"), but the righteous enter into "life eternal" or infinite immortality in the glory in which the eternal God dwells into all eternities. -Written by Bishop J. H. King (1945)


I don't understand the eternal versus immortality discussion.

[RayMan]

Jen referred me to a single post about bald men that I believe originated there. Before that Foghorn Leghorn, alias RayMan (or is that RayMan, alias Foghorn Leghorn) was saying I was about as sharp as a sack of wet mice.

Mutiny? I be suddenly sad. Before I was banned from the site that shalt not be named, we were playing pirates. Sigh. (They banned me for being annoying.)


Ok. I will let you in on a secret. You need a partner.

Taken singly CID and I are merely a couple of annoying guys.

Working as a team, we are brilliant.



It also helps when you blame your flubs on buf.
:hug:

[CID_0687]

I don't understand the eternal versus immortality discussion.
Our souls are eternal....our bodies die, therefore we cannot be immortal, but our souls will carry on forever.

[JenT]

We have begun our reign of terror in TP. That is what you wanted right, a reign of terror? "Cuz otherwise our pirate band has boarded the Cruise Ship in error. Jen is none the wiser so far. Argghhh.

NOT EVEN going to read the rest or my religious thread, trucking back to my ship to KICK YOU OFF!

[vir doctus]

Working as a team, we are brilliant.


You got a more potent than usual dose, eh?:eh:

[Constantine the Great]

Before that Foghorn Leghorn, alias RayMan (or is that RayMan, alias Foghorn Leghorn) was saying I was about as sharp as a sack of wet mice.



That's one of my favorite Foghorn Legghorn-isms. I wouldn't have applied it to you by any means, so RayMan will just have to take his beatings.

[Meriweather]

Wow, you got kicked off of O'Riely's site...I thought you had to pay to be on those forums.

That is correct. In fact, you sign that if you are banned, you forfeit a refund. However, they were so mad at me, they sent me a refund, too. When I get people mad at me, I can't seem to do half-way measures.

Anyway, as hard as it was at the time, I am really, really happy I got banned over there. I loved it over there, but now even if given a choice, I would choose here without even a milli-second of hesitation.

[Meriweather]

That's one of my favorite Foghorn Legghorn-isms. I wouldn't have applied it to you by any means, so RayMan will just have to take his beatings.

Thank you, Constantine! ***beams***

We will get out the wet noodle for RayMan.

[Meriweather]

Our souls are eternal....our bodies die, therefore we cannot be immortal, but our souls will carry on forever.

Thank you. Now I understand.

[RayMan]

NOT EVEN going to read the rest or my religious thread, trucking back to my ship to KICK YOU OFF!


Good luck with that Toots. :mrgreen:

[Constantine the Great]

Thank you, Constantine! ***beams***

We will get out the wet noodle for RayMan.

I was thinking duct tape, Nair, 3 midgets, 1 acrobat from Cirque du Soleil, and Miho from Sin City . Oh wait... :doh:

[Meriweather]

We have begun our reign of terror in TP. That is what you wanted right, a reign of terror? "Cuz otherwise our pirate band has boarded the Cruise Ship in error. Jen is none the wiser so far. Argghhh.

Tsk, tsk. Your assignment was to begin profound discourse in the Lodge and bring Trivial Pursuits to its knees.

[Meriweather]

I was thinking duct tape, Nair, 3 midgets, 1 acrobat from Cirque du Soleil, and Miho from Sin City . Oh wait... :doh:

Duct tape? Why that's my answer for nearly everything!

[RayMan]

I was thinking duct tape, Nair, 3 midgets, 1 acrobat from Cirque du Soleil, and Miho from Sin City . Oh wait... :doh:


So Constantine,
We have the Holy Hand Grenade of Antioch in our possession. Is that an Orthodox or Catholic relic?

[JenT]

That is correct. In fact, you sign that if you are banned, you forfeit a refund. However, they were so mad at me, they sent me a refund, too. When I get people mad at me, I can't seem to do half-way measures.

Anyway, as hard as it was at the time, I am really, really happy I got banned over there. I loved it over there, but now even if given a choice, I would choose here without even a milli-second of hesitation.

WOW! sheesh if Meri got banned I'd have NO chance!

[JenT]

Good luck with that Toots. :mrgreen:

:)) I would be VERY surprised if you visit my ship again, Bucko

[JenT]

Duct tape? Why that's my answer for nearly everything!

Meri, if a man approaches you with a smile and ductape...

nevermind :)

[RayMan]

Meri, if a man approaches you with a smile and ductape...

nevermind :)


Meri probably already had that one figured out. She's a pretty smart cookie.

[JenT]

Meri probably already had that one figured out. She's a pretty smart cookie.

I dunno RAYMAN, I mean she DID ask a Pentecostal...

[RayMan]

I dunno RAYMAN, I mean she DID ask a Pentecostal...


Which goes to show she's got it going on smarts-wise.

[Meriweather]

WOW! sheesh if Meri got banned I'd have NO chance!

You would do fine--as would I if they gave me another chance. The ban wasn't over anything I posted, but something I did not know was a bypass of rules. Burnt hand teaches best, but I dislike their scorched earth policy. Still, it worked out well for me, so I can't really complain about that, either, can I?

[JenT]

You would do fine--as would I if they gave me another chance. The ban wasn't over anything I posted, but something I did not know was a bypass of rules. Burnt hand teaches best, but I dislike their scorched earth policy. Still, it worked out well for me, so I can't really complain about that, either, can I?

I don't know! ask a Pentecostal! ;)

[Meriweather]

Meri, if a man approaches you with a smile and ductape...

nevermind :)

Already happened. The two of us knew that it takes lots of duct tape to keep that basketball cart in good repair. (It also hides the rather unusual items we tape on to provide additional support. Every time something needs repair, he and I raid the garbage and grab the duct tape.)

[Meriweather]

I don't know! ask a Pentecostal! ;)


:)) The Pentecostals are probably debating whether this worked out well for them.

[JenT]

:)) the pentecostals are probably debating whether this worked out well for them.

:)) :)) :)) :)) :))

[RayMan]

The Pentecostalists are over in TP taking over the Cruise Line.

[JenT]

The Pentecostalists are over in TP taking over the Cruise Line.

nah uh