Ask A Pentecostal

[CID_0687]

Hey, you got so much style and grace at what you do, why do anything else?
My point exactly...like I saw in Rhet2 say in another thread...If it ain't broke don't fix it.

[RayMan]

My point exactly...like I saw in Rhet2 say in another thread...If it ain't broke don't fix it.


Rhet is pretty much always right.

[CID_0687]

Rhet is pretty much always right.
Pretty much, except for that "There's no such thing as gnomes thing"

We all know that gnomes exist, and that they will eventually overtake the human race.

[RayMan]

Pretty much, except for that "There's no such thing as gnomes thing"

We all know that gnomes exist, and that they will eventually overtake the human race.

Eventually?

They have already elected Ross Perot as President for Life.

[CID_0687]

Eventually?

They have already elected Ross Perot as President for Life.
:))

[Meriweather]

Act 1:8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

These verses all come together in the second chapter of Acts.

Act 2:1 And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.
Act 2:2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.
Act 2:3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.
Act 2:4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

Here we see Jesus baptized his disciples with the Holy Ghost and fire. We see the disciples being endued or receiving supernatural enablement to give witness to Christ through the power of the Holy Spirit. In this case that power is manifested through the gift of tongues.

Further on in the chapter Peter makes it abundantly clear that this promise of receiving the Holy Spirit and fire - or being endued with power - will be offered to all who believe in generations to come "even as many as the Lord our God shall call."

Act 2:32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.
Act 2:33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.

It is good to take note that Peter references the fact that there are physical manifestations which will follow the reception of the Holy Ghost and fire. "he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear."

Act 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Act 2:39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

Two things I am mulling over here. The first is that any kind of power is always available. For example wind power is always there, but we do not tap into it much. Nuclear power has always been available, but until the past, mankind has not understood how to tap into it.

The Holy Spirit has always been; therefore his power has always been available. Indeed, the Spirit of the Lord was upon the Old Testament prophets, so I would argue the power of the Holy Spirit was indeed present and in use before Pentecost. We see this power in the witnessing and words of the prophets and in David.

Are there any incidents in the Old Testament that Pentecostals perceive as anyone speaking in tongues (although that particular term was not used)?

The other things that are marinating in the back of my mind are earlier posts/threads where the points were made Christians are not particularly unified in their beliefs; and, how can faith in something that is wrong be considered a faith at all? I tie this into the definition of a witness. A witness doesn't just think or believe something happened, a witness knows.

There is also Jesus' own troubling words that he did not come to bring peace but division, but then he prays that we all remain one. I take that to mean that his followers remain one, but clearly, there are divisions within Christianity.

Earlier in the thread I argued that any faith in God (even be it faith in Allah--or for that matter, even further afield, a deist) is the faith the size of a mustard seed and God will meet people there. I am a witness to that. HOWEVER, I don't see that as any excuse for so much disunity within Christianity.

How do you see it? Is the power of the Holy Spirit in fire baptism a unifying force, or is it one that brings division?

[RayMan]

Yes, but not quite what I am trying to understand. You are explaining that when one is baptized with fire, one is anointed with supernatural powers of the spirit. Yet doesn't Mattew 3:12 promise destruction as well? Shouldn't that be taken with equal seriousness? If the supernatural powers are immediate, then what about the immediacy of the destruction? This baptism seems to promise either purification or destruction.

Are you coming from a Catholic interpretation of this that I am not aware of? Do you think the wheat and chaff are two different types of people?

[CRodgers]

Are you coming from a Catholic interpretation of this that I am not aware of? Do you think the wheat and chaff are two different types of people?

The bible differentiates them, why wouldn't we?

[RayMan]

The bible differentiates them, why wouldn't we?

We should do so. But we need to differentiate correctly.

Wheat and tares are used as examples of two different types of people. Chaff is an unprofitable part of the wheat. God want to separate us from the "chaff" in our lives.

Wheat and chaff are not two different types of person.

[vir doctus]

We should do so. But we need to differentiate correctly.

Wheat and tares are used as examples of two different types of people. Chaff is an unprofitable part of the wheat. God want to separate us from the "chaff" in our lives.

Wheat and chaff are not two different types of person.

As a teenager in Kansas my summer employment was threshing wheat. Those summers would support many Bible studies.

[RayMan]

As a teenager in Kansas my summer employment was threshing wheat. Those summers would support many Bible studies.

Did you use something like this?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z_N2ee1dXao

[vir doctus]

Did you use something like this?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z_N2ee1dXao

No. We were in experimental wheat. Hand cut wheat was brought into the lab, individual heads would be put through a separating machine and I would count out 80 kernels for each of 100 bubbles in a tray. The chaff was supposed to be sucked out of the room through a vent, but the chaff was smaller than the pores in the ventilation tube so some chaff swirled about the room regularly assaulting my eyes such that it was physically impossible for me to open my eyes until they were washed clean with water.

[RayMan]

No. We were in experimental wheat. Hand cut wheat was brought into the lab, individual heads would be put through a separating machine and I would count out 80 kernels for each of 100 bubbles in a tray. The chaff was supposed to be sucked out of the room through a vent, but the chaff was smaller than the pores in the ventilation tube so some chaff swirled about the room regularly assaulting my eyes such that it was physically impossible for me to open my eyes until they were washed clean with water.

"Experimental." Was this for a commericial concern, or a University or Government study? Sounds like government if they made the pores small than the chaff. :dance:

Sounds like that would have been extremely detrimental to your eyes. Did you suffer any after effects or did the cleansing clear everything up. (probably a good sermon illustration in there somewhere.)

[Meriweather]

Are you coming from a Catholic interpretation of this that I am not aware of? Do you think the wheat and chaff are two different types of people?

Not deliberately, no. In fact, as much as it is possible, I'm trying to step outside my own thoughts and beliefs in order to come to a better understanding of what you are teaching me.

However, in Chapter 3, Matthew does seem to be saying that those who are repentant are gathered in and receive further gifts; those who are not repentant face the judgment fire. Matthew says much the same thing in Chapter 13 in the parable of the wheat and the tares. Both are left to grow together, but the wheat is separated and brought into the barn while the tares are burned.

I wish to be clear on Pentecostal perspective. I believe you are saying that the wheat stalk represents the entire person. The kernels of wheat on that stalk are gathered to produce even more, while the chaff is being burned. That is an interesting thought, that the same person produces and burns at the same time--produces good while burning away that which is worthless. Is that analogy more correct?

[vir doctus]

Matthew says much the same thing in Chapter 13 in the parable of the wheat and the tares. Both are left to grow together, but the wheat is separated and brought into the barn while the tares are burned.


Tares cannot be distinguished from wheat until maturity.

[RayMan]

<snip>
I wish to be clear on Pentecostal perspective. I believe you are saying that the wheat stalk represents the entire person. The kernels of wheat on that stalk are gathered to produce even more, while the chaff is being burned. That is an interesting thought, that the same person produces and burns at the same time--produces good while burning away that which is worthless. Is that analogy more correct?

That is pretty much where I am coming from. Something to keep in mind is that just as the wheat and tares aren't separated until the harvest neither are the wheat and chaff.

Keep in mind the whole thing is analogy. I am not literally a wheat stalk, some unsaved person is not literally a tare.

The Holy Spirit is at work with all of us Wheaties all during this life helping us to divest ourselves of our "chaff" qualities, those things which are spiritually unfruitful. I believe this is what Paul is talking about when he contrasts the fruit of the Spirit and the works of the flesh in Gal. 5.

Eventually after the time of the harvest when we stand before the judgment seat of Christ to receive those things done in the body I believe we will rejoice in the fact that God has burnt away those things in our lives which are unpleasing to him. One analogy from Jesus, two from Paul, all three related I believe.

1Co 3:11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
1Co 3:12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
1Co 3:13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
1Co 3:14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
1Co 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.





Chaff, wood, hay, stubble, works of the flesh, all point to the same thing. That's how I see it anyhow.

[Meriweather]

That is pretty much where I am coming from. Something to keep in mind is that just as the wheat and tares aren't separated until the harvest neither are the wheat and chaff.

Keep in mind the whole thing is analogy. I am not literally a wheat stalk, some unsaved person is not literally a tare.

The Holy Spirit is at work with all of us Wheaties all during this life helping us to divest ourselves of our "chaff" qualities, those things which are spiritually unfruitful. I believe this is what Paul is talking about when he contrasts the fruit of the Spirit and the works of the flesh in Gal. 5.

Eventually after the time of the harvest when we stand before the judgment seat of Christ to receive those things done in the body I believe we will rejoice in the fact that God has burnt away those things in our lives which are unpleasing to him. One analogy from Jesus, two from Paul, all three related I believe.

1Co 3:11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
1Co 3:12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
1Co 3:13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
1Co 3:14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
1Co 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.





Chaff, wood, hay, stubble, works of the flesh, all point to the same thing. That's how I see it anyhow.

All right. But we made one huge leap here. You were introducing fire baptism, presumably effective right here and now in this life, and you referenced Matthew 3. Suddenly we are not only talking baptism in the present, but connecting it to judgment in the hereafter.

Perhaps we should summarize what I should, at this point, be taking from Matthew 3. Is it just the concept of that baptism in the name of Jesus is of fire and the Holy Spirit?

[Meriweather]

Tares cannot be distinguished from wheat until maturity.

Yes, and it makes the images in that parable all the more powerful.

[RayMan]

All right. But we made one huge leap here. You were introducing fire baptism, presumably effective right here and now in this life, and you referenced Matthew 3. Suddenly we are not only talking baptism in the present, but connecting it to judgment in the hereafter.

Perhaps we should summarize what I should, at this point, be taking from Matthew 3. Is it just the concept of that baptism in the name of Jesus is of fire and the Holy Spirit?

Hey, you're the one that was jumping around. I was just answering your questions which had no real relation to the subject of baptism with Holy Ghost and fire IMO. :dance:

Maybe you are more CID-like than you know. :think: :hug:

[Meriweather]

Hey, you're the one that was jumping around. I was just answering your questions which had no real relation to the subject of baptism with Holy Ghost and fire IMO. :dance:

Maybe you are more CID-like than you know. :think: :hug:


Being like CID is a compliment. However, where this really started was you listing Matthew 3:11. Give me one verse, and I immediately go and read all the verses around it. I want to make sure I'm understanding the context.

I now may have somewhat of a context problem with you using that particular verse as a pointer specifically towards fire baptism, but, I don't yet know enough about fire baptism to have any firm conclusions. So, onward. Who is responding to my post #756? You? Or, did CID draw that duty?

[RayMan]

Being like CID is a compliment. However, where this really started was you listing Matthew 3:11. Give me one verse, and I immediately go and read all the verses around it. I want to make sure I'm understanding the context.

I now may have somewhat of a context problem with you using that particular verse as a pointer specifically towards fire baptism, but, I don't yet know enough about fire baptism to have any firm conclusions. So, onward. Who is responding to my post #756? You? Or, did CID draw that duty?

Hi Meri,
I will get back to you the other post when I have time but as to a "context problem" with Mat 3:11 I don't see where you get that at all since Jesus and Peter both reference it in the book of Acts. Like many other scripturals references it is not quoted verbatim but it is very definitely referenced.

Jesus to the disciples about a week before they were baptised with the Spirit and fire on the day of Pentecost quotes John from Mat 3:11:

Act 1:4 And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.
Act 1:5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.

A week later they receive the reality of what both John and Jesus had prophesied.

Act 2:1 And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.
Act 2:2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.
Act 2:3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.
Act 2:4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.


A few years after the original Pentecostal experience Peter and his circumsized crew are convinced that the gentiles of Cornelius' household are saved because they have the same experience the Jewish believers had on Pentecost.

Act 10:44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.
Act 10:45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Act 10:46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,
Act 10:47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?

When justifying his actions to the council in Jerusalem Peter references Mat 3:11 to explain what happened at Cornelius' household.

Act 11:15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning.
Act 11:16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.
Act 11:17 Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?

I was baptized with the Holy Ghost and Fire some 30 years ago. I have enjoyed the benefits and responsibilities of that baptism ever since. The winnowing and burning of the chaff is referring to judgment after death.

[CID_0687]

We had another awesome service today...and I bring this up because Pastor Kent touched on the Baptism of the Holy Ghost and Fire briefly....and what he said is pretty much confirming what Ray is saying.

The "fire" part of the Baptism is the purification process...Baptism with water, symbolically washes our sins away, Baptism of the Holy Ghost begins the sanctification process, the Fire continues the sanctification/purification process...As Ray pointed out, the chaff is the useless part of the wheat...this would symbolize our carnal nature, in the eyes of God our flesh is useless...so daily as we continue on God's chosen path for us, a little more "chaff" is burnt off...and will be until that day He says it's time for us to come home.

[vir doctus]

"Experimental." Was this for a commericial concern, or a University or Government study?

Me no know. Me worth $4.10 an hour. Washed clean from irritant every time. Great sermon.

[Meriweather]

Hi Meri,
I will get back to you the other post when I have time but as to a "context problem" with Mat 3:11 I don't see where you get that at all since Jesus and Peter both reference it in the book of Acts. Like many other scripturals references it is not quoted verbatim but it is very definitely referenced.

I may have a problem with it--and I may not. It depends on how it all comes together.

I am doing this study a little differently. I haven't run off to the library, bookstore, and Internet to gather material pro and con. CID started me off differently, so, for awhile, I'm going to go with his way, and listen, read, and watch only what you guys direct me.

I do go off on tangents, but am pretty good at returning after I've finished exploring.

[Meriweather]

We had another awesome service today...and I bring this up because Pastor Kent touched on the Baptism of the Holy Ghost and Fire briefly....and what he said is pretty much confirming what Ray is saying.

The "fire" part of the Baptism is the purification process...Baptism with water, symbolically washes our sins away, Baptism of the Holy Ghost begins the sanctification process, the Fire continues the sanctification/purification process...As Ray pointed out, the chaff is the useless part of the wheat...this would symbolize our carnal nature, in the eyes of God our flesh is useless...so daily as we continue on God's chosen path for us, a little more "chaff" is burnt off...and will be until that day He says it's time for us to come home.

Here is where I am having difficulties. If baptism washes away sin, and chaff is our sinful nature...what chaff is left to burn if sin has been washed away?

Perhaps understanding how I look at things as a Catholic, will help you understand why I am confused. Baptism cleanses us from sin. However strong the spirit, flesh is weak, and we will sin. However, sin (through the Sacrament of Reconciliation) is forgiven, it is remembered no more. In Catholicism, the Sacrament of Reconciliation is a continuous process throughout our lives.

Does fire baptism kind of (sort of, maybe?) do that cleansing of sin that Catholics believe is done through repentence and reconciliation?

[CID_0687]

Here is where I am having difficulties. If baptism washes away sin, and chaff is our sinful nature...what chaff is left to burn if sin has been washed away?

Perhaps understanding how I look at things as a Catholic, will help you understand why I am confused. Baptism cleanses us from sin. However strong the spirit, flesh is weak, and we will sin. However, sin (through the Sacrament of Reconciliation) is forgiven, it is remembered no more. In Catholicism, the Sacrament of Reconciliation is a continuous process throughout our lives.

Does fire baptism kind of (sort of, maybe?) do that cleansing of sin that Catholics believe is done through repentence and reconciliation?
That's the way I understand it...we use the word sanctification...

[Meriweather]

That's the way I understand it...we use the word sanctification...

Okay. Then I understand and I'm following along again.

[CID_0687]

Okay. Then I understand and I'm following along again.
Good.

See, here's the thing. We receive salvation, at that point all of our sins are forgiven...past, present and future. It's a one time deal...However Sanctification is a process...you don't get it all at once. Each day we sin,automatically it's forgiven if we're saved...But as we sin God reveals to us that which we are doing is not pleasing to him...We repent, which as you know is not just saying "I'm sorry" True repentance means to flee from that which is not of God. And in doing that we get a little closer to God, a little more sanctified, if you will.

I did some pretty bad things when I was a teenager, a lot worse than most kids would ever think of doing...because of that my parents had two choices, either have me put in jail or out on the street. They gave me my option and I chose to be homeless.

I've shared this story before, a few months later I received salvation...shortly after that I called my parents and they forgave me and allowed me to come home. With my mother it was immediate, I was forgiven and nothing was ever said about what I had done again. My dad was not as easy on me. He loved me and he forgave me, but if I would do something that didn't please him I could tell that he was still leery of me, as I was with him. It took a couple of years to regain the trust that he had lost in me...But he did, and we ended up being the best of friends...We had gotten past my past, we had moved away from being just father and son, but to being close confidants...I had reconciled myself in his eyes, but it took quite a while.

That's what sanctification is about, God doesn't want us to be just His servant, or just His child, but His friend. He called Abraham His friend. :D

[CRodgers]

Wheat and chaff are not two different types of person.

Correct. Some are living branches, some are dead.

[CID_0687]

Correct. Some are living branches, some are dead.
I think you missed what he was saying.

Chaff is part of the Wheat, the bad part that is inedible.

[Meriweather]

Good.

See, here's the thing. We receive salvation, at that point all of our sins are forgiven...past, present and future. It's a one time deal...

One becomes redeemed, correct, through faith in Jesus and God who sent him? Is it at that moment of faith, or is it at the moment of baptism when salvation is received?

I haven't committed the sin yet, but I'm already forgiven for it? I need to be convinced of the theology in this.

I am used to thinking that Jesus's life, death, and resurrection were the moments the world was being redeemed. In other words, I was born into a redeemed world. I could choose redemption or I could choose sin, just as Adam and Eve did. My parents chose to raise me in redemption, and I was baptized. After I sin, I repent, I ask for, and receive forgiveness, praying for strength to turn from this sin and to never commit it again.

I have thought that living in redemption, living The Redemption (or living our Salvation) is the process that sanctifies.

I have not thought in terms of a one time reception of salvation (through baptism?) accomplishing all.

However Sanctification is a process...you don't get it all at once. Each day we sin,automatically it's forgiven if we're saved...But as we sin God reveals to us that which we are doing is not pleasing to him...We repent, which as you know is not just saying "I'm sorry" True repentance means to flee from that which is not of God. And in doing that we get a little closer to God, a little more sanctified, if you will.

Is what you are calling Sanctification what I am calling Redemption/Salvation? This is starting to feel like my problems with Oneness/Trinity all over again, where I am seeing people arrive at the same place (or fairly close) by using different terminology.

I did some pretty bad things when I was a teenager, a lot worse than most kids would ever think of doing...because of that my parents had two choices, either have me put in jail or out on the street. They gave me my option and I chose to be homeless.

I've shared this story before, a few months later I received salvation...shortly after that I called my parents and they forgave me and allowed me to come home. With my mother it was immediate, I was forgiven and nothing was ever said about what I had done again. My dad was not as easy on me. He loved me and he forgave me, but if I would do something that didn't please him I could tell that he was still leery of me, as I was with him. It took a couple of years to regain the trust that he had lost in me...But he did, and we ended up being the best of friends...We had gotten past my past, we had moved away from being just father and son, but to being close confidants...I had reconciled myself in his eyes, but it took quite a while.

That's what sanctification is about, God doesn't want us to be just His servant, or just His child, but His friend. He called Abraham His friend. :D

Yours is a great story, CID.

His friend? Yes, perhaps. If that encompasses the ability to understand and agree.

[CID_0687]

One becomes redeemed, correct, through faith in Jesus and God who sent him? Is it at that moment of faith, or is it at the moment of baptism when salvation is received? Baptism with water has nothing to do with your salvation. Salvation comes through your acceptance of Christ, through faith and by grace. Baptism is nothing more than an outward expression of our inner faith, it is merely symbolic, showing the world that you have decided to follow Christ.

I haven't committed the sin yet, but I'm already forgiven for it? I need to be convinced of the theology in this.

I am used to thinking that Jesus's life, death, and resurrection were the moments the world was being redeemed. In other words, I was born into a redeemed world. I could choose redemption or I could choose sin, just as Adam and Eve did. My parents chose to raise me in redemption, and I was baptized. After I sin, I repent, I ask for, and receive forgiveness, praying for strength to turn from this sin and to never commit it again.

I have thought that living in redemption, living The Redemption (or living our Salvation) is the process that sanctifies.

I have not thought in terms of a one time reception of salvation (through baptism?) accomplishing all.



Is what you are calling Sanctification what I am calling Redemption/Salvation? This is starting to feel like my problems with Oneness/Trinity all over again, where I am seeing people arrive at the same place (or fairly close) by using different terminology.

You would be correct, the terminology differs, and we do arrive at the same place. Where we start to differ is in the Baptism of the Holy Spirit. While we (Pentecostals) believe in the supernatural aspects, or as I prefer to call them the Gifts of the Spirit, i.e. tongues, interpretation, prophecy, faith, wisdom, knowledge, healing, miracles, and discernment....most of the other denominations are willing to accept some of these but not all.

Also most other non-Pentecostals would say that Baptism in the Holy Spirit comes at the point of Salvation. Most Pentecostals don't believe this, but that it comes farther along in the Sanctification process.



Yours is a great story, CID.

His friend? Yes, perhaps. If that encompasses the ability to understand and agree.
That is exactly what I believe it means. But I would add, a true friend is willing to do anything for you...Jesus was that friend, and in return we should be willing to do whatever we can for Him.

[Meriweather]

Baptism with water has nothing to do with your salvation. Salvation comes through your acceptance of Christ, through faith and by grace. Baptism is nothing more than an outward expression of our inner faith, it is merely symbolic, showing the world that you have decided to follow Christ.

All right. This I get. An outward sign of an invisible reality.

You would be correct, the terminology differs, and we do arrive at the same place. Where we start to differ is in the Baptism of the Holy Spirit. While we (Pentecostals) believe in the supernatural aspects, or as I prefer to call them the Gifts of the Spirit, i.e. tongues, interpretation, prophecy, faith, wisdom, knowledge, healing, miracles, and discernment....most of the other denominations are willing to accept some of these but not all.

Gifts of the Holy Spirit: Wisdom, Understanding, Counsel, Fortitude, Knowledge, Piety, (love of God), Fear of the Lord (reverent awe).

Fruits of the Holy Spirit: Love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control.

Miracles, absolutely.

Tongues? In my 2.5 years in RF, I know there have been threads about Tongues that I never even opened. Perhaps later I'll go search one or two up, but after you and RayMan tell me a little about them.

I've always been quizzically perplexed over both sides of the issue on Tongues, but it seems the day has come for me to tackle it.

Also most other non-Pentecostals would say that Baptism in the Holy Spirit comes at the point of Salvation. Most Pentecostals don't believe this, but that it comes farther along in the Sanctification process.

And Tongues is a sign that one has been baptized in the Holy Spirit?

That is exactly what I believe it means. But I would add, a true friend is willing to do anything for you...Jesus was that friend, and in return we should be willing to do whatever we can for Him.

That is why I hesitated over the term friend. Yes, a friend is willing to do anyting for you, and someone you are willing to do anything for. Yet, how many of us are willing to jump just because a friend wills it. With a friend, my will is always in control. Absolutely, my will is willing...

With God, that sometimes becomes a matter of going beyond being willing; it becomes a matter of laying aside one's own will.

[Fire Watch]

Our General Superintendent (see big Chief), Rev. Kenneth Haney was in service with us today.

I got to spend about 15 minutes with him before service, drinking a cup-o-joe, picking his brain, and just having a general conversation. Great guy...full of wisdom, insight, annointing, and character.

[CID_0687]

Meri I'll get back to you on this after the Steelers game :)

[RayMan]

<snip>
I do go off on tangents, but am pretty good at returning after I've finished exploring.

Yes you are. :hug:

[Meriweather]

Meri I'll get back to you on this after the Steelers game :)


Go Steelers! (I can say that. I know they aren't playing the Raiders.)

[RayMan]

Here is where I am having difficulties. If baptism washes away sin, and chaff is our sinful nature...what chaff is left to burn if sin has been washed away?

Perhaps understanding how I look at things as a Catholic, will help you understand why I am confused. Baptism cleanses us from sin. However strong the spirit, flesh is weak, and we will sin. However, sin (through the Sacrament of Reconciliation) is forgiven, it is remembered no more. In Catholicism, the Sacrament of Reconciliation is a continuous process throughout our lives.

Does fire baptism kind of (sort of, maybe?) do that cleansing of sin that Catholics believe is done through repentence and reconciliation?


Back to what I have mentioned before about 1 Cor 3. Any works that are not gold, silver or precious stones in God's eyes will be burnt away while we are still saved.

There are things we do in this life which are neither sinful nor righteous simply unprofitable. Wood, hay, stubbled. The writer of Hebrews speaks of "dead works." Doesn't call them sin.

It helps to learn to think in grayscale rather than trying to catergorize everything we do in life as sin or righteousness.

[RayMan]

Our General Superintendent (see big Chief), Rev. Kenneth Haney was in service with us today.

I got to spend about 15 minutes with him before service, drinking a cup-o-joe, picking his brain, and just having a general conversation. Great guy...full of wisdom, insight, annointing, and character.

Sweet. Take advantage of every opportunity to spend time with guys like that. When we pastored Foursquare I had our General Supe. Dr Roy Hicks, Sr. in to speak one a year and would spend as much time as possible with him soaking up the wisdom.

[Meriweather]

Back to what I have mentioned before about 1 Cor 3. Any works that are not gold, silver or precious stones in God's eyes will be burnt away while we are still saved.

There are things we do in this life which are neither sinful nor righteous simply unprofitable. Wood, hay, stubbled. The writer of Hebrews speaks of "dead works." Doesn't call them sin.

It helps to learn to think in grayscale rather than trying to catergorize everything we do in life as sin or righteousness.


All right. I'm very good at shades of grey.

[CID_0687]

Back to what I have mentioned before about 1 Cor 3. Any works that are not gold, silver or precious stones in God's eyes will be burnt away while we are still saved.

There are things we do in this life which are neither sinful nor righteous simply unprofitable. Wood, hay, stubbled. The writer of Hebrews speaks of "dead works." Doesn't call them sin.

It helps to learn to think in grayscale rather than trying to catergorize everything we do in life as sin or righteousness.
touch of gray

Thanks Pastor Jerry;)

[RayMan]

touch of gray

Thanks Pastor Jerry;)

"We will survive..."

[Fire Watch]

Here is where I am having difficulties. If baptism washes away sin, and chaff is our sinful nature...what chaff is left to burn if sin has been washed away?

Perhaps understanding how I look at things as a Catholic, will help you understand why I am confused. Baptism cleanses us from sin. However strong the spirit, flesh is weak, and we will sin. However, sin (through the Sacrament of Reconciliation) is forgiven, it is remembered no more. In Catholicism, the Sacrament of Reconciliation is a continuous process throughout our lives.

Does fire baptism kind of (sort of, maybe?) do that cleansing of sin that Catholics believe is done through repentence and reconciliation?

Righteousness is imputed, not imparted. This means that its credited to us. Its put on our account as though we were actually righteous. God counts us to be righteous. In other words we are righteous as far as standing with God is concerned, but we aren't necessarily righteous as far as our "works" are concerned. There is no change in our nature. We still have a sin nature. If righteousness was imparted to us..it would mean that we'd have a whole new nature without sin. This is impossible because we read in I John 1:8, "If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us." When we are considered righteous by God..He restores communication between us and Him..the communication we were barred from while lost in sin.
Upon receiving a right standing with God, one is able to further their relationship with Him. This is where Bible reading, prayer, fasting, and other activities come in. They strengthen and build the relationship with God. Since you are only considered righteous when God justifies you, and your nature isnt actually righteous, growth in the area of holiness is still needed.

God imputes to us Christ's righteousness, its a past, completed reality. We dont strive to continue to be justified. God has made a legal pronouncement of innocence on our behalf. Justification is a declaration of the Christian's righteousness, not the process of becoming righteous. It speaks of our status before God, not our nature.

Our justification has its origin in nothing other than the grace of God. It doesnt flow from any good work of our own, but from His favor towards us. We are "justified freely by his grace" (Romans 3:24).

The grounds of our justification is none other than the sacrificial death of Jesus Christ. We are justified by God's grace "through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus" (Romans 3:24). Without Christ's sacrificial death on our behalf there would be no justification for humanity. We are justified by His blood (Romans 5:9). Jesus' sinless life, freely given up in death on our behalf, provided the basis for our righteousness with God. Now, whether one stands before or after the cross, the basis for their justification is secure and God is shown to be righteous because He visited on sin the judgment it deserved.

While the grounds of our justification is Christ's death, and the source is God's grace, God's justification judicially becomes ours through our faith.

[RayMan]

Thanks FW. Right on the money.

[Meriweather]

Righteousness is imputed, not imparted. This means that its credited to us. Its put on our account as though we were actually righteous. God counts us to be righteous. In other words we are righteous as far as standing with God is concerned, but we aren't necessarily righteous as far as our "works" are concerned. There is no change in our nature. We still have a sin nature. If righteousness was imparted to us..it would mean that we'd have a whole new nature without sin. This is impossible because we read in I John 1:8, "If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us." When we are considered righteous by God..He restores communication between us and Him..the communication we were barred from while lost in sin.
Upon receiving a right standing with God, one is able to further their relationship with Him. This is where Bible reading, prayer, fasting, and other activities come in. They strengthen and build the relationship with God. Since you are only considered righteous when God justifies you, and your nature isnt actually righteous, growth in the area of holiness is still needed.

God imputes to us Christ's righteousness, its a past, completed reality. We dont strive to continue to be justified. God has made a legal pronouncement of innocence on our behalf. Justification is a declaration of the Christian's righteousness, not the process of becoming righteous. It speaks of our status before God, not our nature.

Our justification has its origin in nothing other than the grace of God. It doesnt flow from any good work of our own, but from His favor towards us. We are "justified freely by his grace" (Romans 3:24).

The grounds of our justification is none other than the sacrificial death of Jesus Christ. We are justified by God's grace "through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus" (Romans 3:24). Without Christ's sacrificial death on our behalf there would be no justification for humanity. We are justified by His blood (Romans 5:9). Jesus' sinless life, freely given up in death on our behalf, provided the basis for our righteousness with God. Now, whether one stands before or after the cross, the basis for their justification is secure and God is shown to be righteous because He visited on sin the judgment it deserved.

While the grounds of our justification is Christ's death, and the source is God's grace, God's justification judicially becomes ours through our faith.

Now you have really given me something to wrestle with. I went through the post point-by-point saying, "This makes sense...this makes sense...I understand..." But at the end I'm saying, "WAIT JUST A MINUTE! God does not pretend that I am something I am not!"

How can God count me to be righteous when I am clearly not? God is truth, is He not? I know Him, Rick, and He does not pretend.

Yet what you are saying makes sense, I just can't get it to add up.

[Meriweather]

Thanks FW. Right on the money.


:((

What am I missing?

[RayMan]

:((

What am I missing?

You're a cradle Catholic, right? You guys get taught this stuff from a different viewpoint than us and use different terminology. Just stick in there. I was finally able to see that "venerating" Mary is not the same as "worshipping Mary," but it took a while.

[Fire Watch]

Now you have really given me something to wrestle with. I went through the post point-by-point saying, "This makes sense...this makes sense...I understand..." But at the end I'm saying, "WAIT JUST A MINUTE! God does not pretend that I am something I am not!"

How can God count me to be righteous when I am clearly not? God is truth, is He not? I know Him, Rick, and He does not pretend.

Yet what you are saying makes sense, I just can't get it to add up.

Its like a judge in a court room. If he tries a man who has committed a murder, but declares him to be righteous, that man stands righteous in the sight of the law. Did he actually commit the murder? Yes, but the judge wiped his record clean by declaring that he didnt. This is what God has done with our sin. He has taken it off of our account as though it never happened, even though we know it did. The murderer's works were not righteous, but the judge's decision acquitted him of all guilt and responsibility to the act, as far as the law was concerned.

Justification is threefold (the only trinity that I believe in :)) ) in that the Bible speaks of it as already having taken place, as though its taking place presently..and the future aspect of it being imputed to us when we get to heaven. So, its spoken of as being a past event, present reality, and future hope. Our justification happened historically when we initially trusted in Christ's atonement for our sins and applied it to our lives (I Corinthians 6:11)..and it continues with us in the present, atoning for our current sins (Romans 3:26). This justification isnt forfeited when we sin. All that we need to do is maintain a right relationship to God through repentance. This is how we continue to show our faith in God, the faith that justifies. Repentance shows evidence of our faith in God's ability and purpose to forgive us (I John 1:9). When we repent, God forgives us of our sin, casting it into the sea of forgetfulness. Concerning the future aspect of justification, there will come a day when we will actually be made righteous in our very nature. This will occur when we receive our glorified body (Romans 5:19..Galatians 5:5). These three aspects of justification provide for the whole spectrum of our lives. We need not worry about our standing with God. We are the righteousness of God in Christ.

[Meriweather]

You're a cradle Catholic, right? You guys get taught this stuff from a different viewpoint than us and use different terminology. Just stick in there. I was finally able to see that "venerating" Mary is not the same as "worshipping Mary," but it took a while.

Yes. Cradle Catholic. I'm now working with a print copy. My answer for everything. Print it and scribble notes all over it.

I know I said I was going to try to step outside Catholicism for this, and I meant it. However, on this day alone, I've already referred to the Catholic Catechism three times. For some of this I find I need points of reference. I think this will be another instance.

I can stick with it as long as patience lasts, and I'll endeavor not to try anyone's patience too hard.

[Meriweather]

Its like a judge in a court room. If he tries a man who has committed a murder, but declares him to be righteous, that man stands righteous in the sight of the law. Did he actually commit the murder? Yes, but the judge wiped his record clean by declaring that he didnt. This is what God has done with our sin. He has taken it off of our account as though it never happened, even though we know it did. The murderer's works were not righteous, but the judge's decision acquitted him of all guilt and responsibility to the act, as far as the law was concerned.

All right. Then it harkens back to scripture, (and here I am thinking Isaiah and Jeremiah, although there are probably others), where God promises to remember sin no more. Sin happened, but it is not going to be remembered.

Justification is threefold (the only trinity that I believe in :)) ) in that the Bible speaks of it as already having taken place, as though its taking place presently..and the future aspect of it being imputed to us when we get to heaven. So, its spoken of as being a past event, present reality, and future hope. Our justification happened historically when we initially trusted in Christ's atonement for our sins and applied it to our lives (I Corinthians 6:11)..and it continues with us in the present, atoning for our current sins (Romans 3:26). This justification isnt forfeited when we sin. All that we need to do is maintain a right relationship to God through repentance. This is how we continue to show our faith in God, the faith that justifies. Repentance shows evidence of our faith in God's ability and purpose to forgive us (I John 1:9). When we repent, God forgives us of our sin, casting it into the sea of forgetfulness. Concerning the future aspect of justification, there will come a day when we will actually be made righteous in our very nature. This will occur when we receive our glorified body (Romans 5:19..Galatians 5:5). These three aspects of justification provide for the whole spectrum of our lives. We need not worry about our standing with God. We are the righteousness of God in Christ.

The rest of this I get, and whole heartedly agree that we need not worry about our standing with God.

This wasn't so hard after all. Thank you.

[RayMan]

Yes. Cradle Catholic. I'm now working with a print copy. My answer for everything. Print it and scribble notes all over it.

I know I said I was going to try to step outside Catholicism for this, and I meant it. However, on this day alone, I've already referred to the Catholic Catechism three times. For some of this I find I need points of reference. I think this will be another instance.

I can stick with it as long as patience lasts, and I'll endeavor not to try anyone's patience too hard.

No worries. We all just need to be really clear on terminology. For instance, your reply to CID earlier where you list the "Gifts of the Spirit" as:

Gifts of the Holy Spirit: Wisdom, Understanding, Counsel, Fortitude, Knowledge, Piety, (love of God), Fear of the Lord (reverent awe).

A Pentecostal looks at that and goes, "wha...?" We see the gifts of the Holy Spirit as those Paul lists in 1 Cor 12.

1Co 12:4 Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.
1Co 12:5 And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord.
1Co 12:6 And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.
1Co 12:7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.
1Co 12:8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;
1Co 12:9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;
1Co 12:10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:


We view the gifts of the Spirit as supernatural evidences or manifestations of God's wisdom and power manifested through the believer.

[Meriweather]

No worries. We all just need to be really clear on terminology. For instance, your reply to CID earlier where you list the "Gifts of the Spirit" as:


A Pentecostal looks at that and goes, "wha...?" We see the gifts of the Holy Spirit as those Paul lists in 1 Cor 12.

1Co 12:4 Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.
1Co 12:5 And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord.
1Co 12:6 And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.
1Co 12:7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.
1Co 12:8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;
1Co 12:9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;
1Co 12:10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:


We view the gifts of the Spirit as supernatural evidences or manifestations of God's wisdom and power manifested through the believer.

Also printed. I'll keep this handy (and in mind) throughout the discussion.

[JenT]

Its like a judge in a court room. If he tries a man who has committed a murder, but declares him to be righteous, that man stands righteous in the sight of the law. Did he actually commit the murder? Yes, but the judge wiped his record clean by declaring that he didnt. This is what God has done with our sin. He has taken it off of our account as though it never happened, even though we know it did. The murderer's works were not righteous, but the judge's decision acquitted him of all guilt and responsibility to the act, as far as the law was concerned.

Justification is threefold (the only trinity that I believe in :)) ) in that the Bible speaks of it as already having taken place, as though its taking place presently..and the future aspect of it being imputed to us when we get to heaven. So, its spoken of as being a past event, present reality, and future hope. Our justification happened historically when we initially trusted in Christ's atonement for our sins and applied it to our lives (I Corinthians 6:11)..and it continues with us in the present, atoning for our current sins (Romans 3:26). This justification isnt forfeited when we sin. All that we need to do is maintain a right relationship to God through repentance. This is how we continue to show our faith in God, the faith that justifies. Repentance shows evidence of our faith in God's ability and purpose to forgive us (I John 1:9). When we repent, God forgives us of our sin, casting it into the sea of forgetfulness. Concerning the future aspect of justification, there will come a day when we will actually be made righteous in our very nature. This will occur when we receive our glorified body (Romans 5:19..Galatians 5:5). These three aspects of justification provide for the whole spectrum of our lives. We need not worry about our standing with God. We are the righteousness of God in Christ.

I love the judge analogy.

As far as continuing to sin, I think Jesus talks about that in John when He washed the disciples feet and said

10 Jesus said to him, “He who is bathed needs only to wash his feet, but is completely clean; and you are clean, but not all of you.” 11 For He knew who would betray Him; therefore He said, “You are not all clean.”

I forgot which one but my pastor showed me one of those words in Greek means continually wash...that Christ continually washes us.

God sees us as clean, even though we aren't, but we still get our feet dirty sometimes; yet we are clean. Then He said what to do about it, and I think it means "to confess our sins one to another" (written somewhere else) washes that dirt on our feet off, but God still sees us as completelty clean as Jesus said above.

12 So when He had washed their feet, taken His garments, and sat down again, He said to them, “Do you know what I have done to you? 13 You call Me Teacher and Lord, and you say well, for so I am. 14 If I then, your Lord and Teacher, have washed your feet, you also ought to wash one another’s feet. 15 For I have given you an example, that you should do as I have done to you.

[JenT]

Does that work with "Pentelcostalism?"

[RayMan]

Does that work with "Pentelcostalism?"

Does what work with what? :)

[CID_0687]

Does that work with "Pentelcostalism?"
that would depend if one is considered Penteligent

[Meriweather]

that would depend if one is considered Penteligent

What ARE you doing here? The Steelers are down by one! Shouldn't you be cheering them on?

[JenT]

what are you doing here? The steelers are down by one! Shouldn't you be cheering them on?

yeah!

[CID_0687]

What ARE you doing here? The Steelers are down by one! Shouldn't you be cheering them on?
multitasking

[Meriweather]

multitasking

Cool. How many tasks are you on?

[CID_0687]

Cool. How many tasks are you on?
3

Cheer cuss post

[JenT]

3

Cheer cuss post

what about bridal attention?

Don't you know that's our test? When sports is on, we NEED to KNOW we matter MORE

:)

[CID_0687]

what about bridal attention?

Don't you know that's our test? When sports is on, we NEED to KNOW we matter MORE

:)
she's asleep :razz:

[Meriweather]

3

Cheer cuss post

:))

Hang in there. It's almost over.

[Fire Watch]

The Name Jesus Christ in Greek is Iesous Christos which is translated from the Hebrew Yeshua Mashiyach which is a shortened form of Yehoshua Mashiyach which breaks down to Yah-Hoshea Mashiyach or Yahweh-Hoshea Mashiyach which means Jehovah-Savior, the anointed man.

[CID_0687]

The Name Jesus Christ in Greek is Iesous Christos which is translated from the Hebrew Yeshua Mashiyach which is a shortened form of Yehoshua Mashiyach which breaks down to Yah-Hoshea Mashiyach or Yahweh-Hoshea Mashiyach which means Jehovah-Savior, the anointed man.
That's awesome.

[Meriweather]

The Name Jesus Christ in Greek is Iesous Christos which is translated from the Hebrew Yeshua Mashiyach which is a shortened form of Yehoshua Mashiyach which breaks down to Yah-Hoshea Mashiyach or Yahweh-Hoshea Mashiyach which means Jehovah-Savior, the anointed man.


And this answers "What is in a name?" very well--and very impressively.


Drew, how are the fingernails?

[CID_0687]

Righteousness is imputed, not imparted. This means that its credited to us. Its put on our account as though we were actually righteous. God counts us to be righteous. In other words we are righteous as far as standing with God is concerned, but we aren't necessarily righteous as far as our "works" are concerned. There is no change in our nature. We still have a sin nature. If righteousness was imparted to us..it would mean that we'd have a whole new nature without sin. This is impossible because we read in I John 1:8, "If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us." When we are considered righteous by God..He restores communication between us and Him..the communication we were barred from while lost in sin.
Upon receiving a right standing with God, one is able to further their relationship with Him. This is where Bible reading, prayer, fasting, and other activities come in. They strengthen and build the relationship with God. Since you are only considered righteous when God justifies you, and your nature isnt actually righteous, growth in the area of holiness is still needed.

God imputes to us Christ's righteousness, its a past, completed reality. We dont strive to continue to be justified. God has made a legal pronouncement of innocence on our behalf. Justification is a declaration of the Christian's righteousness, not the process of becoming righteous. It speaks of our status before God, not our nature.

Our justification has its origin in nothing other than the grace of God. It doesnt flow from any good work of our own, but from His favor towards us. We are "justified freely by his grace" (Romans 3:24).

The grounds of our justification is none other than the sacrificial death of Jesus Christ. We are justified by God's grace "through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus" (Romans 3:24). Without Christ's sacrificial death on our behalf there would be no justification for humanity. We are justified by His blood (Romans 5:9). Jesus' sinless life, freely given up in death on our behalf, provided the basis for our righteousness with God. Now, whether one stands before or after the cross, the basis for their justification is secure and God is shown to be righteous because He visited on sin the judgment it deserved.

While the grounds of our justification is Christ's death, and the source is God's grace, God's justification judicially becomes ours through our faith.
:clap: Very well said Rick

[CID_0687]

And this answers "What is in a name?" very well--and very impressively.


Drew, how are the fingernails?
Well, I'm down to bloody stumps on 7 out of 10 digits, had to save the other three...ya never know when you might get an itch.

[CID_0687]

Oh and Meri, that thing I was gonna get back to you on, it looks as if Ray and Rick have done a great job of explaining it...unless there's something else that needs to be answered from earlier...I'll be happy to assist. :D

[Meriweather]

Oh and Meri, that thing I was gonna get back to you on, it looks as if Ray and Rick have done a great job of explaining it...unless there's something else that needs to be answered from earlier...I'll be happy to assist. :D

I'm good. I think we are caught up to date. When he has time Ray is going to address Post #756--which probably should be done before we venture any further, or, into Tongues. I also need to give further attention to the Pentecostal gifts of the Spirit, as opposed to what I learned in Catholic school. There may be a couple of true differences, but most differences seem to be wording.

Do you recommend watching Sunday's service (as it pertains to this) when it comes up tomorrow or the next day? I think I can still find my way to the site.

[CID_0687]

I'm good. I think we are caught up to date. When he has time Ray is going to address Post #756--which probably should be done before we venture any further, or, into Tongues. I also need to give further attention to the Pentecostal gifts of the Spirit, as opposed to what I learned in Catholic school. There may be a couple of true differences, but most differences seem to be wording.

Do you recommend watching Sunday's service (as it pertains to this) when it comes up tomorrow or the next day? I think I can still find my way to the site.
I do recommend it...Pastor Kent really only scratched the surface on this...but it was a continuation of last weeks service, with again using the illustration of the Tabernacle...if you don't have the link anymore let me know and I'll be happy to provide it.

[Meriweather]

I do recommend it...Pastor Kent really only scratched the surface on this...but it was a continuation of last weeks service, with again using the illustration of the Tabernacle...if you don't have the link anymore let me know and I'll be happy to provide it.

I found the link (Post #364) and it is now filed where I can find it even more easily. It looks as though the video is already up (it has that camera). I thought about starting it tonight, but night is not my best time of day, so I will shoot for tomorrow morning.

[CID_0687]

I found the link (Post #364) and it is now filed where I can find it even more easily. It looks as though the video is already up (it has that camera). I thought about starting it tonight, but night is not my best time of day, so I will shoot for tomorrow morning.
Cool.

Hey if they happen to scan the congregation look on the far right side, second row, third seat to the left and that's me. :D

that would be right hand side as in facing the stage, I don't want to be confused with Big Steve.

[Meriweather]

Cool.

Hey if they happen to scan the congregation look on the far right side, second row, third seat to the left and that's me. :D

that would be right hand side as in facing the stage, I don't want to be confused with Big Steve.


I've been trying to pick you out, Drew, but no luck thus far. In fact, I'm having trouble with the video this morning. It won't let me get past the 52 minute mark--it just throws me back to the beginning of the video. I'll try again when I get home this afternoon.

There is some weird housekeeping thing my computer likes to do around 8 a.m., and no matter how far I pry into its gizzards, I can't locate what it is doing or find where I can reset the timing of it. I suppose I could shoot it, but I've misplaced my bow and arrow.

Have a great day.

[MitchM]

I'm curious what Pentecostals teach concering God and Goverment. I'm not talking about the Seperation of Church and State that Jefferson mentioned in his letter to the Danbury Baptists. Instead I'm asking about these verses here:

Rom 13:1 Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.
Rom 13:2 Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.
Rom 13:3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:
Rom 13:4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.
Rom 13:5 Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake.


I'm curious what the thoughts are on these scriptures. Particularily what a believe in a nation such as Iran or China where Christians are persecuted.

[RayMan]

MERI - Since this is long post with a lot of interaction I am going to forgo using the quote function over and over. Instead I will leave your remarks regular and bold my own remarks. Why? Because I can! :whistle:


Two things I am mulling over here. The first is that any kind of power is always available.

I don't think so.



For example wind power is always there, but we do not tap into it much. Nuclear power has always been available, but until the past, mankind has not understood how to tap into it.

Wind power is there when the wind is blowing. It's not blowing at all right now, that is why I have the window fan on. If a breeze comes up later tonight I will open the front and back doors to get a crossbreeze to cool the house down, but right now, nada.


The Holy Spirit has always been; therefore his power has always been available. Indeed, the Spirit of the Lord was upon the Old Testament prophets, so I would argue the power of the Holy Spirit was indeed present and in use before Pentecost. We see this power in the witnessing and words of the prophets and in David.

Don't remember any Pentecostals saying otherwise in this thread. But the point of this conversation is the Baptism with the Holy Ghost and fire which has been made available to all Christian believers, which is a N.T. manifestation of God's power and presence.



Are there any incidents in the Old Testament that Pentecostals perceive as anyone speaking in tongues (although that particular term was not used)?

There is one passage in Isaiah a few folk think has to do with an O.T. manifestation of tongues but most of us would say no. One reason Pentecostals place a lot of emphasis on Tongues and Interpretation is because they are the only gifts of the Spirit which ARE strictly N.T. in orgin and practice.


The other things that are marinating in the back of my mind are earlier posts/threads where the points were made Christians are not particularly unified in their beliefs; and, how can faith in something that is wrong be considered a faith at all? I tie this into the definition of a witness. A witness doesn't just think or believe something happened, a witness knows.


Faith is believing. People believe all kinds of stuff. Pentecostals believe that the basis for our faith is the bible and what it reveals about Jesus Christ, especially the N.T.

A witness as used in the context of the Baptism with the Holy Ghost and fire is by definition someone who God has enabled to back up their preaching of the gospel with signs and wonders which confirm the Word preached.



There is also Jesus' own troubling words that he did not come to bring peace but division, but then he prays that we all remain one. I take that to mean that his followers remain one, but clearly, there are divisions within Christianity.

What is troubling about that? You are wandering again. Jesus was talking about natural families that would be divided by some placing their faith in Hiim and some not. He is not referencing division in the body of Christ. You are mixing up two passages of scripture which have pretty much nothing in common.


Division of natural families

Mat 10:34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.
Mat 10:35 For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.
Mat 10:36 And a man's foes shall be they of his own household.
Mat 10:37 He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.

Unity in Christ
Joh 17:20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
Joh 17:21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
Joh 17:22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:



Earlier in the thread I argued that any faith in God (even be it faith in Allah--or for that matter, even further afield, a deist) is the faith the size of a mustard seed and God will meet people there. I am a witness to that. HOWEVER, I don't see that as any excuse for so much disunity within Christianity.

Are you trying to bring your Unity thread in here? :)) I don't understand why you keep bringing this up when you said you wanted to hear what Pentecostals believe about the Baptism with the Holy Ghost and fire. Are you laying a groundwork for arguing that Pentecostalism with it's emphasis on the present day manifestation of the gifts of the Spirit is divisive?

How do you see it? Is the power of the Holy Spirit in fire baptism a unifying force, or is it one that brings division?


It is certainly a unifying force for those who have believed and received. People bring division, not the Holy Ghost. Whether Catholic, LDS, Pentecostal or whoever, it is people who have a hard time getting along with each other.

[gpd®]

It is certainly a unifying force for those who have believed and received. People bring division, not the Holy Ghost. Whether Catholic, LDS, Pentecostal or whoever, it is people who have a hard time getting along with each other.

Boy are you right. I just got done reading the 2 "What is a Christian" threads.

And boy are we tore up as a body.

I wonder if we are getting cancer in some of our appendages.

It is almost like one denomination is a withered hand and another part of the body is a blind eye and another other part of the body of Christ is a forked tongue and so on.

Good thing Jesus Heals!!!!!

[Koushi Shinigami]

Boy are you right. I just got done reading the 2 "What is a Christian" threads.

And boy are we tore up as a body.

I wonder if we are getting cancer in some of our appendages.

It is almost like one denomination is a withered hand and another part of the body is a blind eye and another other part of the body of Christ is a forked tongue and so on.

Good thing Jesus Heals!!!!!

The body has leukemia and is attacking itself.

[Reeder]

The body has leukemia and is attacking itself.

Thats for sure. Often times I find myself being the attacker. It is not Christ-like, and it does not please God. During the semi-annual LDS General Conference this past weekend, one of the Apostles said, "There is always more that the children of God have in common than differences,.........and even the differences can be seen as an opportunity. God will help you see their differences not as a source of irritation but as a contribution. In a moment, the Lord can help you see and value what the other person contributes which you lack."

Satan tries to create contention by pointing out the differences. God brings us together by focusing on our similarities and strengths.

[vir doctus]

Thats for sure. Often times I find myself being the attacker. It is not Christ-like, and it does not please God. During the semi-annual LDS General Conference this past weekend, one of the Apostles said, "There is always more that the children of God have in common than differences,.........and even the differences can be seen as an opportunity. God will help you see their differences not as a source of irritation but as a contribution. In a moment, the Lord can help you see and value what the other person contributes which you lack."



Basically, he was saying, "Vir is right, the dictionary is your friend." :whistle:

[Reeder]

Basically, he was saying, "Vir is right, the dictionary is your friend." :whistle:

Now where is that "bow-down-to-vir" smiley? :think::mrgreen:

[RayMan]

Basically, he was saying, "Vir is right, the dictionary is your friend." :whistle:

Pretty much. Vir has the gift of getting right to the heart of every discussion.

[vir doctus]

Pretty much. Vir has the gift of getting right to the heart of every discussion.

I found my sig. at Despair, Inc. :angel:

[Meriweather]

Are you laying a groundwork for arguing that Pentecostalism with it's emphasis on the present day manifestation of the gifts of the Spirit is divisive?

I will go back and regroup, but the main thing that needs to be addressed here is that I am not laying the groundwork for any argument at all. The only thing going on here is the brick work for my own understanding. I am not anywhere near the point I can argue about anything. So, no hidden agendas.

What I am trying to do is weed out any preconceived ideas I may have picked up along the way so that I can understand fire baptism from your perspective.

I'll get back to you later this evening--hopefully.

[RayMan]

I found my sig. at Despair, Inc. :angel:

In the bargain bin? Even the wretched refuse had refused to buy it?

[RayMan]

I will go back and regroup, but the main thing that needs to be addressed here is that I am not laying the groundwork for any argument at all. The only thing going on here is the brick work for my own understanding. I am not anywhere near the point I can argue about anything. So, no hidden agendas.

What I am trying to do is weed out any preconceived ideas I may have picked up along the way so that I can understand fire baptism from your perspective.

I'll get back to you later this evening--hopefully.

Just teasing. Think of me as the brother you never wanted. :hug:

[Meriweather]

Just teasing. Think of me as the brother you never wanted. :hug:

I can't imagine having a brother I didn't want. Welcome to the family! :hug:

[RayMan]

I can't imagine having a brother I didn't want. Welcome to the family! :hug:

:mrgreen:

[Meriweather]

All right, here is a summary of my understanding.

1. Have faith in Jesus and believe his sacrifice on the cross made salvation available to mankind.
2. Jesus’ sacrifice made us right with God; He remembers our sin no more, whether that sin be past, present future.
3. Being baptized by water is a public statement of these beliefs.
4. Although sins have already been forgiven, when one sins, one must still repent, and make himself right with God. This is the process of sanctification, or being made holy. It is a lifetime process.
5. At some point in a person’s life (and usually after being more sanctified than less) one becomes baptized by the Holy Spirit.
6. Baptism of the Holy Spirit is strictly a New Testament manifestation, sent after Jesus' ascension into heaven.

I am still having some difficulty with #4, being forgiven of a sin before one sins, and then doing the repentance after the forgiveness. The more logical sequence is one sins, one repents, one is forgiven. Pentecostal thought has it as one is (or has been?) forgiven, one sins, one repents?

Then the next small question: Does manifestation of fire baptism occur only in assembly, or can that be in solitude also? Is it a one time event with lasting results? Or is it more a continuing event?

[Fire Watch]

All right, here is a summary of my understanding.

1. Have faith in Jesus and believe his sacrifice on the cross made salvation available to mankind.
2. Jesus’ sacrifice made us right with God; He remembers our sin no more, whether that sin be past, present future.
3. Being baptized by water is a public statement of these beliefs.
4. Although sins have already been forgiven, when one sins, one must still repent, and make himself right with God. This is the process of sanctification, or being made holy. It is a lifetime process.
5. At some point in a person’s life (and usually after being more sanctified than less) one becomes baptized by the Holy Spirit.
6. Baptism of the Holy Spirit is strictly a New Testament manifestation, sent after Jesus' ascension into heaven.

I am still having some difficulty with #4, being forgiven of a sin before one sins, and then doing the repentance after the forgiveness. The more logical sequence is one sins, one repents, one is forgiven. Pentecostal thought has it as one is (or has been?) forgiven, one sins, one repents?

Then the next small question: Does manifestation of fire baptism occur only in assembly, or can that be in solitude also? Is it a one time event with lasting results? Or is it more a continuing event?

I agree with your confusion on #4.

In my belief, repentence comes before being forgiven.

Peter explained this in Acts. chapter 2.

37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?


38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the LORD our God shall call.

40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.

Repentence and baptism is the method laid out for remission of sins.

[JenT]

I agree with your confusion on #4.

In my belief, repentence comes before being forgiven.

Peter explained this in Acts. chapter 2.

37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?


38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the LORD our God shall call.

40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.

Repentence and baptism is the method laid out for remission of sins.

But by "repentence" is meant agreement with God that your sins are sins and ask for His help to stop doing them, therefore we can "come as you are", right?

Because I was hopeless to repent without His help. I needed His help in that. I think "repentence" is agreement with Him about it.

And also, because the Holy Spirit fell upon Cornelius even before water baptism. Is that right?


44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who heard the word. 45 And those of the circumcision who believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also. 46 For they heard them speak with tongues and magnify God.

Then Peter answered, 47 “Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?” 48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then they asked him to stay a few days.

wait, I'll look up the word repent

[Fire Watch]

And also, because the Holy Spirit fell upon Cornelius even before water baptism. Is that right?
Yep..but he was then baptized to complete the process..there's no example from scripture where anyone was filled with the Holy Ghost before repentence. God wont dwell in a dirty temple.

[JenT]

yeah...


repent
μετανοέω
metanoeō
met-an-o-eh'-o
From G3326 and G3539; to think differently or afterwards, that is, reconsider (morally to feel compunction): - repent.

It works:

13 I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me. (Phil 4)

[JenT]

Yep..but he was then baptized to complete the process..there's no example from scripture where anyone was filled with the Holy Ghost before repentence. God wont dwell in a dirty temple.

Right, how could one be filled with the Holy Ghost and choose not to be clean, I don't think it's possible

[JenT]

That's why the thief on the cross, though he didn't get baptized, it wasn't from lack of wanting to

Or anyone that dies and receives Him at the last moment, but there is a heart change and we WANT those things the moment He dwells within us

He gives us the desires of our heart, cleanliness is one of them, though we might slip

right?

[Meriweather]

I agree with your confusion on #4.

In my belief, repentence comes before being forgiven.

Peter explained this in Acts. chapter 2.

37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?


38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the LORD our God shall call.

40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.

Repentence and baptism is the method laid out for remission of sins.


Would you go so far as to say that while Christ forgives sin, and paid the price for all sin, we still need to repent before redemption for a specific sin comes into play?

[JenT]

At least that's what I tell anyone that's dealing with heavy guilt after they slip up, that God always knew they would, that first moment you felt Him, that incredible love and peace, God always knew even then, He forgave, He sees us as holy as Christ is holy, but our heart leads us to get up and try again, like a kid learning to walk. You don't cry about falling down, you just get up and keep going, in Christ who strengthens us

Right?

[Fire Watch]

Would you go so far as to say that while Christ forgives sin, and paid the price for all sin, we still need to repent before redemption for a specific sin comes into play?


If we're truly living righteously to the best of our ability..and we slip up and commit a sin unintended..his grace covers us.

If we purposely commit sin, then yes, IMO, repentance is required.

[JenT]

If we're truly living righteously to the best of our ability..and we slip up and commit a sin unintended..his grace covers us.

If we purposely commit sin, then yes, IMO, repentance is required.

oh I've been there. Especially when I first got born again. I knew something I did was wrong, and at first changing our lifestyle can be really hard, I did it knowing it was wrong because temptation was so great. I call that slipping because it was even more awful afterwards but I was learning. And I determined all the more never to do it again and with His help I succeeded. But I did slip at first. I think that was covered by grace? Ya think?

I'm so thankful He knows our hearts. No one can judge us as rightly as God does.

I think that's what growing fruit is all about. I have more fruit than yesterday but hopefully not as much as tomorrow.

[Meriweather]

If we're truly living righteously to the best of our ability..and we slip up and commit a sin unintended..his grace covers us.

I would argue repentance is needed even when the sin in unintentional, perhaps especially if it is unintentional. Maybe it's time to snap to and pay closer attention.

[Fire Watch]

I would argue repentance is needed even when the sin in unintentional, perhaps especially if it is unintentional. Maybe it's time to snap to and pay closer attention.
It's difficult to truly repent for sin you dont know you've commited.

[Meriweather]

It's difficult to truly repent for sin you dont know you've commited.

Ah. The unknown sin is what you are describing. Yes, if it was unknown and remains unknown. However, I am thinking while it is all too common to not be aware of an unintentional sin while it is in progress, but many (or at least some) have a way of making themselves known after-the-fact.

[CID_0687]

It's difficult to truly repent for sin you dont know you've commited.
See that's what I was talking about with the process of Sanctification...it's during this process and we have these slip ups...unintentional sins...God will reveal those things to us and show us that it doesn't line up with His word and what His plan is for us...Once it's revealed to us that we have done something that wasn't pleasing to Him we repent.

[Meriweather]

See that's what I was talking about with the process of Sanctification...it's during this process and we have these slip ups...unintentional sins...God will reveal those things to us and show us that it doesn't line up with His word and what His plan is for us...Once it's revealed to us that we have done something that wasn't pleasing to Him we repent.

We may all be back on the same page!

I'm probably leaping way too far ahead for the point where we are in this study. But the one thing I am immensely curious about is WHY speaking in Tongues is considered to be important.

I understand it is a manifestation of the Spirit, but why a Tongues manifestation instead of something else?

[JenT]

We may all be back on the same page!

I'm probably leaping way too far ahead for the point where we are in this study. But the one thing I am immensely curious about is WHY speaking in Tongues is considered to be important.

I understand it is a manifestation of the Spirit, but why a Tongues manifestation instead of something else?

I'd like to know that too, I have no clue, watching for the answer

[Meriweather]

I'd like to know that too, I have no clue, watching for the answer

I am probably asking too soon. This grasshopper is not yet able to take the pebble from their hands...

[Fire Watch]

I'm probably leaping way too far ahead for the point where we are in this study. But the one thing I am immensely curious about is WHY speaking in Tongues is considered to be important.
According to Oneness soteriology, speaking in tongues is the initial evidence of receiving the gift of the Holy Ghost, the evidence of the promise in Acts 2 being fulfilled.

[Meriweather]

According to Oneness soteriology, speaking in tongues is the initial evidence of receiving the gift of the Holy Ghost, the evidence of the promise in Acts 2 being fulfilled.


Is it just evidence?

[Fire Watch]

"just"?

[Meriweather]

"just"?


In other words, it serves no purpose other than to be a sign that the Holy Spirit is present?

[Fire Watch]

Not at all.

[Meriweather]

Not at all.

Am I ready to hear about the other purposes?

[Fire Watch]

Probably..but I'm busy at the moment.

[Meriweather]

Probably..but I'm busy at the moment.

I'm known far and wide for my patience.

Besides, I am only too glad it's not me who is busy at the moment.

[RayMan]

Concerning #4:

I am still having some difficulty with #4, being forgiven of a sin before one sins, and then doing the repentance after the forgiveness. The more logical sequence is one sins, one repents, one is forgiven. Pentecostal thought has it as one is (or has been?) forgiven, one sins, one repents?

Here's my read on the subject.

In John 1 John the Baptist says something interesting about Jesus.

Joh 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.
Joh 1:30 This is he of whom I said, After me cometh a man which is preferred before me: for he was before me.
Joh 1:31 And I knew him not: but that he should be made manifest to Israel, therefore am I come baptizing with water.
Joh 1:32 And John bare record, saying, I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and it abode upon him.
Joh 1:33 And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost.

John the Baptist - a prophet - calls Jesus the lamb of God which taketh away the sin of the world.

Two thoughts here:

1. Jesus takes away the sins of the world. Not just the believer, not just the Christian, the WORLD.

Paul puts it like this:

1Ti 4:10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.:

Jesus has paid the price for the forgiveness of all people, of all time, for all time. He is the saviour of all men ESPECIALLY of those who believe. Why especially of those who believe? Because they have believed. They have reached out in faith to receive the salvation God offers to all men. BTW - "men" is "anthropos," all humankind, not "men" as in just the male of the species.

Back to the second interesting thing John says:

2. "Who taketh away the sins of the world. This was like 3 years before the cross and John makes the taking away present tense. Why? Because as he tells us in the book of Revelation:

Rev 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Jesus is not only the lamb of God who taketh away the sins of the world, He is the lamb slain from the foundation of the world. The passover lamb was a type of the lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

There was a particular point in history when Jesus physically went to the cross but the price for our forgiveness had been paid in God's eyes from the foundation of the world.

Isaiah, Matthew and Peter show forth the same truth.

Isa 53:3 He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.
Isa 53:4 Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.
Isa 53:5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.
Isa 53:6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.


Some seven hundred years before Jesus goes to the cross Isaiah declares it as a done deal. Notice he speaks in present and past tenses.

He HATH carried, he WAS wounded, He was bruised, with His stripes we are healed.

Why? Because once God decides to do something it's accomplishment is certain.

Matthew - again, before the crucifixion - declares:

Mat 8:16 When the even was come, they brought unto him many that were possessed with devils: and he cast out the spirits with his word, and healed all that were sick:
Mat 8:17 That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet, saying, Himself took our infirmities, and bare our sicknesses.


Matthew, like Isaiah, uses past tense concerning the benefits of the crucifixion and says that the miracles and healings which took place BEFORE the crucifixion were a fulfillment of Isaiah's prophecy.


Peter, like Matthew quotes Isaiah:

1Pe 2:23 Who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered, he threatened not; but committed himself to him that judgeth righteously:
1Pe 2:24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.
1Pe 2:25 For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.

Peter uses the same past tenses concerning the availability of forgiveness and healing that Isaiah and Matthew use but he says it AFTER the moment in time Jesus has gone to the cross. It was no more real in God's eyes when Peter wrote it than when Isaiah or Matthew wrote it.

The cool thing Peter brings out is that he is talking to people who have believed and received that which the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world has made available to all who will believe.

"Ye were as sheep going astay; but are now returned..."

The book of Hebrews makes it clear that Jesus doesn't have to go back on the cross to provide forgiveness for it. It was provided in the mind of God from the foundation of the world. It was acted out in our reality at the cross almost two thousand years ago. The benefits of the crucifixion are available throughout this entire age to all who will believe.

Heb 7:22 By so much was Jesus made a surety of a better testament.
Heb 7:23 And they truly were many priests, because they were not suffered to continue by reason of death:
Heb 7:24 But this man, because he continueth ever, hath an unchangeable priesthood.
Heb 7:25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.
Heb 7:26 For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens;
Heb 7:27 Who needeth not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people's: for this he did once, when he offered up himself.
Heb 7:28 For the law maketh men high priests which have infirmity; but the word of the oath, which was since the law, maketh the Son, who is consecrated for evermore.

Heb 9:24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:
Heb 9:25 Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others;
Heb 9:26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.
Heb 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
Heb 9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

Heb 10:1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.
Heb 10:2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.
Heb 10:3 But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.
Heb 10:4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.
Heb 10:5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:
Heb 10:6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.
Heb 10:7 Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.
Heb 10:8 Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;
Heb 10:9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.
Heb 10:10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
Heb 10:11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:
Heb 10:12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;


Jesus made ONE sacrifice for sins FOR EVER. He has taken away the sin of the world. Men need to believe that and turn from dead works unto faith in God.

Let me ask one question? Do you think when you confess your sin that God didn't know of it beforehand? Is that the first He heard of it? No, of course not. He knew all of my sins and shortcomings before the foundation of the world and provided forgiveness for all my sin before the foundation of the world

Jesus is the Lamb of God who has taken away the sin of the world. He took it away from the foundation of the world. Does that mean I shouldn't confess my sin when I become aware of it? Of course not, but my sin was paid for and forgiven in God's eyes a long time ago. I need to receive that which He has done on my behalf in the here and now.

[CID_0687]

We may all be back on the same page!

I'm probably leaping way too far ahead for the point where we are in this study. But the one thing I am immensely curious about is WHY speaking in Tongues is considered to be important.

I understand it is a manifestation of the Spirit, but why a Tongues manifestation instead of something else?

Acts 2:1-4
1) When the day of Pentecost came, they were all together in one place.
2) Suddenly a sound like the blowing of a violent wind came from heaven and filled the whole house where they were sitting.
3) They saw what seemed to be tongues of fire that separated and came to rest on each of them.
4) All of them were filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues as the Spirit enabled them.

As we see here, whenever the Believer becomes Baptized in the Holy Spirit, glossolalia is the manifestation, the proof of the pudding, if you will.

Now this should not be confused with the tongues where there is to be an interpreter...The tongues of the newly Baptized of the Spirit is what we call a Prayer Language, between us and God.

We learn of that here:

Romans 8:26-27
26) In the same way the Spirit helps us in our weakness. We do not know what we ought to pray for, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groans that words cannot express.
27) And he who searches our hearts knows the mind of the Spirit because the Spirit intercedes for the saints in accordance with God's will.

The tongues that one would speak with an interpreter are a different kind. They are one of the 9 Gifts of the Spirit that I mentioned previously in this thread. And as Paul clearly tells us, not all have all 9 Gifts. Some may speak in tongues, while others interpret, others may have the gift of healing, while others have knowledge, others may be blessed with wisdom, etc...

[CID_0687]

Concerning #4:



Here's my read on the subject.

In John 1 John the Baptist says something interesting about Jesus.

Joh 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.
Joh 1:30 This is he of whom I said, After me cometh a man which is preferred before me: for he was before me.
Joh 1:31 And I knew him not: but that he should be made manifest to Israel, therefore am I come baptizing with water.
Joh 1:32 And John bare record, saying, I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and it abode upon him.
Joh 1:33 And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost.

John the Baptist - a prophet - calls Jesus the lamb of God which taketh away the sin of the world.

Two thoughts here:

1. Jesus takes away the sins of the world. Not just the believer, not just the Christian, the WORLD.

Paul puts it like this:

1Ti 4:10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.:

Jesus has paid the price for the forgiveness of all people, of all time, for all time. He is the saviour of all men ESPECIALLY of those who believe. Why especially of those who believe? Because they have believed. They have reached out in faith to receive the salvation God offers to all men. BTW - "men" is "anthropos," all humankind, not "men" as in just the male of the species.

Back to the second interesting thing John says:

2. "Who taketh away the sins of the world. This was like 3 years before the cross and John makes the taking away present tense. Why? Because as he tells us in the book of Revelation:

Rev 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Jesus is not only the lamb of God who taketh away the sins of the world, He is the lamb slain from the foundation of the world. The passover lamb was a type of the lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

There was a particular point in history when Jesus physically went to the cross but the price for our forgiveness had been paid in God's eyes from the foundation of the world.

Isaiah, Matthew and Peter show forth the same truth.

Isa 53:3 He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.
Isa 53:4 Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.
Isa 53:5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.
Isa 53:6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.


Some seven hundred years before Jesus goes to the cross Isaiah declares it as a done deal. Notice he speaks in present and past tenses.

He HATH carried, he WAS wounded, He was bruised, with His stripes we are healed.

Why? Because once God decides to do something it's accomplishment is certain.

Matthew - again, before the crucifixion - declares:

Mat 8:16 When the even was come, they brought unto him many that were possessed with devils: and he cast out the spirits with his word, and healed all that were sick:
Mat 8:17 That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet, saying, Himself took our infirmities, and bare our sicknesses.


Matthew, like Isaiah, uses past tense concerning the benefits of the crucifixion and says that the miracles and healings which took place BEFORE the crucifixion were a fulfillment of Isaiah's prophecy.


Peter, like Matthew quotes Isaiah:

1Pe 2:23 Who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered, he threatened not; but committed himself to him that judgeth righteously:
1Pe 2:24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.
1Pe 2:25 For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.

Peter uses the same past tenses concerning the availability of forgiveness and healing that Isaiah and Matthew use but he says it AFTER the moment in time Jesus has gone to the cross. It was no more real in God's eyes when Peter wrote it than when Isaiah or Matthew wrote it.

The cool thing Peter brings out is that he is talking to people who have believed and received that which the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world has made available to all who will believe.

"Ye were as sheep going astay; but are now returned..."

The book of Hebrews makes it clear that Jesus doesn't have to go back on the cross to provide forgiveness for it. It was provided in the mind of God from the foundation of the world. It was acted out in our reality at the cross almost two thousand years ago. The benefits of the crucifixion are available throughout this entire age to all who will believe.

Heb 7:22 By so much was Jesus made a surety of a better testament.
Heb 7:23 And they truly were many priests, because they were not suffered to continue by reason of death:
Heb 7:24 But this man, because he continueth ever, hath an unchangeable priesthood.
Heb 7:25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.
Heb 7:26 For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens;
Heb 7:27 Who needeth not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people's: for this he did once, when he offered up himself.
Heb 7:28 For the law maketh men high priests which have infirmity; but the word of the oath, which was since the law, maketh the Son, who is consecrated for evermore.

Heb 9:24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:
Heb 9:25 Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others;
Heb 9:26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.
Heb 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
Heb 9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

Heb 10:1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.
Heb 10:2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.
Heb 10:3 But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.
Heb 10:4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.
Heb 10:5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:
Heb 10:6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.
Heb 10:7 Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.
Heb 10:8 Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;
Heb 10:9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.
Heb 10:10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
Heb 10:11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:
Heb 10:12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;


Jesus made ONE sacrifice for sins FOR EVER. He has taken away the sin of the world. Men need to believe that and turn from dead works unto faith in God.

Let me ask one question? Do you think when you confess your sin that God didn't know of it beforehand? Is that the first He heard of it? No, of course not. He knew all of my sins and shortcomings before the foundation of the world and provided forgiveness for all my sin before the foundation of the world

Jesus is the Lamb of God who has taken away the sin of the world. He took it away from the foundation of the world. Does that mean I shouldn't confess my sin when I become aware of it? Of course not, but my sin was paid for and forgiven in God's eyes a long time ago. I need to receive that which He has done on my behalf in the here and now.

Very well put Ray. :clap:

[vir doctus]

Really! :))

Just evidence, Meri?

What about we say of transubstantiation:

"It's just the real body and blood of Jesus?"

Do you know the original of this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Blw8G5FiCY

[CID_0687]

Do you know the original of this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Blw8G5FiCY
edit...Not Norman Greenbaum...:doh: what was I thinking...he did Spirit in the Sky...it was the Doobie Brothers...I'm hanging my head in shame and referring to my disclaimer at the bottom of this post for clarification...Gah...I'm such an idiot. :redface:

Jesus is Just alright. :eek:

[vir doctus]

Norman Greenbaum

Jesus is Just alright. :eek:

I don't know Norm, I know The Byds and the Doobie Brothers.

[CID_0687]

I don't know Norm, I know The Byds and the Doobie Brothers.
See previous post, one more again. :redface:

[darknessesedge]

A question for any Pentecostal who practices "speaking in tongues":

When you "speak in tongues", what language(s) do you speak?

french

[Meriweather]

Jesus made ONE sacrifice for sins FOR EVER. He has taken away the sin of the world. Men need to believe that and turn from dead works unto faith in God.

Let me ask one question? Do you think when you confess your sin that God didn't know of it beforehand? Is that the first He heard of it? No, of course not. He knew all of my sins and shortcomings before the foundation of the world and provided forgiveness for all my sin before the foundation of the world

With this, are you speaking in terms of pre-destination? (This question has crossed my mind several times in our discussion.)

Jesus is the Lamb of God who has taken away the sin of the world. He took it away from the foundation of the world. Does that mean I shouldn't confess my sin when I become aware of it? Of course not, but my sin was paid for and forgiven in God's eyes a long time ago. I need to receive that which He has done on my behalf in the here and now.

Even supposing God exists outside of what we call time, I am IN time. What I see as the logical progression is that God did provide the means for mankind's redemption, including my own. God provided the way, but I am expected to follow that way, which means to turn away from sin--repent for the forgiveness of my sins. When I sin, God deals with me in my here and now, whether that is His here and now or not. In His here and now, I may have already repented, but in whatever time continuum we're speaking of, I believe my repentance is necessary for forgiveness.

(I hope this makes sense. There are so many thoughts bouncing around my mind at the moment.)

[Meriweather]

Really! :))

Just evidence, Meri?

What about we say of transubstantiation:

"It's just the real body and blood of Jesus?"

Well, I don't know, that is why I am asking. Right now you guys are so far ahead of me, that if you turn around, you'll be asking each other, "Where's Meri? I think we lost her."

[Meriweather]

Very well put Ray. :clap:

:((

I'm lost!

[CID_0687]

Well, I don't know, that is why I am asking. Right now you guys are so far ahead of me, that if you turn around, you'll be asking each other, "Where's Meri? I think we lost her."
And that's simply because Ray's been in this for 30+ years, I've been in it for almost 10, and however long Rick has...Trust me, if this was Ask a Catholic I would be lost on a lot of things too.

True I have 16 years of the Episcopal church under my belt...but as close as they are to Catholics there are many differences as well.

:hug:

[RayMan]

"just"?

Really! :))

Just evidence, Meri?

What about we say of transubstantiation:

"It's just the real body and blood of Jesus?"

The blessing of praying in tongues is as real to Pentecostals as partaking of the Eucharist is to the Catholic. The Holy Ghost is as much a personal part of praying in tongues to us as Jesus is to the Catholic partaking of the elements of communion.


You apparently didn't read this part of my earlier post:


One reason Pentecostals place a lot of emphasis on Tongues and Interpretation is because they are the only gifts of the Spirit which ARE strictly N.T. in orgin and practice.

Tongues and interpretation of same are the only supernatural gifts given solely to the New Testament Church.

What other benefits or purposes are there to praying in tongues or praying in the spirit as it is alternatively called?

1Co 14:2 For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.

Let's see. The one who speaks in tongues SPEAKS to GOD. That sounds pretty cool to me. Some folk say tongues are only of value if they are interpreted but Paul says they are a great way to speak with God. What do we call speaking with God. "Prayer."

This is where the phrase prayer language comes from. Praying in tongues is a wonderful way to converse to our Heavenly Father and He doesn't need any interpretation since it is the Spirit giving the utterance. And the last phrase is super-cool. The one who is praying in tongues is speaking mysteries - or divine secrets.

1Co 14:3 But he that prophesieth speaketh unto men to edification, and exhortation, and comfort.
1Co 14:4 He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church.


Also, he that speaketh in a tongue edifies himself, or builds himself up in a spiritual fashion even as the one that prophesies builds up or edifies the church. Notice interpretation is again not mentioned.

Jude brings out the same truth with a little more clarification.

Jud 1:20 But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost,
Jud 1:21 Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.


Jude says that what we are building up or edifying while praying in tongues is our MOST HOLY FAITH. Wow, I like the idea of giving my faith a workout. Building it up. Strengthening it. That's what Jude says I am doing while praying in tongues. Notice interpretation is not mentioned again. Interpretation is a necessary component when God has a message to share with His people in a corporate setting. When I am praying to God, not so much.

Finishing off Jude's sentence we see that not only are we building ourselves up on our most holy faith as we prayin tongues or in the spirit but we are also KEEPING (guarding) ourselves in the love of God. I like knowing and experiencing the love God has towards me. Praying in tongues helps me to enter into and stay in his presence. God is love so keeping myself in His love is keeping myself in His presence.

Paul also speaks of praying in tongues or in the Spirit in Rom 8.

Rom 8:26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.
Rom 8:27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.
Rom 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

You and I have a weakness. We don't always know how to pray as we ought in a given situation. The Holy Ghost doesn't have that weakness. As we yield our lips and tongues to Him he will pray and intercede through using groanings which go beyond our articulate speech, praying according to the will of God through us. Giving us utterance as He did Peter and the others in Acts 2.

This gives us the context for Rom 8.28. Many times people quote this verse when terrible things happen in someone's life. A child is born crippled or a loved one dies and someone will try to bring solace by saying, "All these things are going to work together for good."

That's not exactly what Paul is saying. He is not teaching fatalism, that whatever happens in our lives is His will, plan and purpose. The word AND links verse 28 to the verses that come before.

As we yield ourselves to the Holy Ghost and allow Him to pray through with unutterable groanings He lifts us up beyond our inability to pray as we ought. He prays the perfect will of God through us and as He does things begin to work together for good and according to God's purpose for our lives.

Could write more about the benefits of praying in tongues WITHOUT interpretation so that the church may be edified but this post is already too long.
[/I]

[RayMan]

edit...Not Norman Greenbaum...:doh: what was I thinking...he did Spirit in the Sky...it was the Doobie Brothers...I'm hanging my head in shame and referring to my disclaimer at the bottom of this post for clarification...Gah...I'm such an idiot. :redface:

Jesus is Just alright. :eek:

Actually the Byrds recorded it first in '69 for "Easy Rider."

[Meriweather]

As we see here, whenever the Believer becomes Baptized in the Holy Spirit, glossolalia is the manifestation, the proof of the pudding, if you will.

Why is proof (or evidence) needed?

Understand, I'm not used to thinking in terms of God providing me with physical proofs, so I'm wondering why it is supplied here?

Now this should not be confused with the tongues where there is to be an interpreter...The tongues of the newly Baptized of the Spirit is what we call a Prayer Language, between us and God.

I think I already have these two tangled up, so I will try to unsnarl that misconception I've developed already.

The tongues that one would speak with an interpreter are a different kind. They are one of the 9 Gifts of the Spirit that I mentioned previously in this thread. And as Paul clearly tells us, not all have all 9 Gifts. Some may speak in tongues, while others interpret, others may have the gift of healing, while others have knowledge, others may be blessed with wisdom, etc...

Okay, a different kind....but how does one know which is which? How do they differ in practice? Do they sound different?

[RayMan]

I don't know Norm, I know The Byds and the Doobie Brothers.

DC Talk did a nice cover of it also.

[RayMan]

:((

I'm lost!


You're in the right thread to get found...:hug:

[CID_0687]

OK...Ray always answers the questions more gooder than I do so I'm not answering anymore. ;)

[CID_0687]

Why is proof (or evidence) needed?

Understand, I'm not used to thinking in terms of God providing me with physical proofs, so I'm wondering why it is supplied here?



I think I already have these two tangled up, so I will try to unsnarl that misconception I've developed already.



Okay, a different kind....but how does one know which is which? How do they differ in practice? Do they sound different?
I believe you will find Ray's post very helpful.

[Fire Watch]

And that's simply because Ray's been in this for 30+ years, I've been in it for almost 10, and however long Rick has...Trust me, if this was Ask a Catholic I would be lost on a lot of things too.

True I have 16 years of the Episcopal church under my belt...but as close as they are to Catholics there are many differences as well.

:hug:
About 15 for me..13 officially? I was a Oneness Pentecostal at least two years before I knew it had a label :)).

I was raised in a Roman Catholic home..with the influence of an Orthodox Jewish grandmother.

At about the age of 12 I knew that I couldnt be Catholic. Thanks to my Grandmother, I was a monotheist in the strictest sense of the word..that lead me away from trinitarian thought, coupled with my own studies.

At 14 I asked a Baptist minister to baptize me, not in the trinitarian formula, but in the name of Jesus Christ as I saw it being done repeatedly by the Apostles and early church in scripture. I came up from the baptismal speaking in tongues..freaking the poor Baptist preacher out. I knew intellectually what was happening, for I had read about it all throughout the book of Acts..but had never seen it, heard it, heard OF it being done these days..so, I too was a bit shocked.

He quickly informed me that although he appreciated my zeal, I just wouldnt quite "fit" with his congregation. I was disappointed..but ultimately it was God's hand upon my life leading me elsewhere.

I continued studying on my own for a few more years..attending services sporadically at different churches..Methodists, Lutheran, Baptist, whatever, wherever.

At age 16, while reading my Bible at a park near my house, I met a man named Lee Stoneking. He saw me reading, and asked to sit. Over the next couple of hours he asked me about my background..what I was reading..how I comprehended what I was reading..my thoughts upon the subject matter..my religious teaching and leanings. He never tried to "convert" me, or give me a sales pitch..he simply asked and listened..then revealed to me that what I thought, believed, practiced, and had experienced was 100% in line with the doctrines of the United Pentecostal Church. We exchanged numbers and parted ways.

The following week, I was excited..had I finally found a "home"? After researching the UPC, I discovered that he told me the truth..this was who I am.

Rev. Stoneking continues to be a friend and mentor.

[Meriweather]

And that's simply because Ray's been in this for 30+ years, I've been in it for almost 10, and however long Rick has...Trust me, if this was Ask a Catholic I would be lost on a lot of things too.

True I have 16 years of the Episcopal church under my belt...but as close as they are to Catholics there are many differences as well.

:hug:

Deep down I KNEW I wasn't ready to be asking about Tongues yet. I am floundering, guys. I should probably pull back and mull for a bit.

I am totally confused over the "Just?" and the laughing over that, but every so often I read something else you've written, and think (in delight), "I'm beginning to understand that bit better!"

[CID_0687]

About 15 for me..13 officially? I was a Oneness Pentecostal at least two years before I knew it had a label :)).

I was raised in a Roman Catholic home..with the influence of an Orthodox Jewish grandmother.

At about the age of 12 I knew that I couldnt be Catholic. Thanks to my Grandmother, I was a monotheist in the strictest sense of the word..that lead me away from trinitarian thought, coupled with my own studies.

At 14 I asked a Baptist minister to baptize me, not in the trinitarian formula, but in the name of Jesus Christ as I saw it being done repeatedly by the Apostles and early church in scripture. I came up from the baptismal speaking in tongues..freaking the poor Baptist preacher out. I knew intellectually what was happening, for I had read about it all throughout the book of Acts..but had never seen it, heard it, heard OF it being done these days..so, I too was a bit shocked.

He quickly informed me that although he appreciated my zeal, I just wouldnt quite "fit" with his congregation. I was disappointed..but ultimately it was God's hand upon my life leading me elsewhere.

I continued studying on my own for a few more years..attending services sporadically at different churches..Methodists, Lutheran, Baptist, whatever, wherever.

At age 16, while reading my Bible at a park near my house, I met a man named Lee Stoneking. He saw me reading, and asked to sit. Over the next couple of hours he asked me about my background..what I was reading..how I comprehended what I was reading..my thoughts upon the subject matter..my religious teaching and leanings. He never tried to "convert" me, or give me a sales pitch..he simply asked and listened..then revealed to me that what I thought, believed, practiced, and had experienced was 100% in line with the doctrines of the United Pentecostal Church. We exchanged numbers and parted ways.

The following week, I was excited..had I finally found a "home"? After researching the UPC, I discovered that he told me the truth..this was who I am.

Rev. Stoneking continues to be a friend and mentor.
Cool, thanks for sharing that.

By the way, I'm ready for another Rev. Stoneking sermon...that's good stuff.

[RayMan]

Why is proof (or evidence) needed?
Understand, I'm not used to thinking in terms of God providing me with physical proofs, so I'm wondering why it is supplied here?



"Proof" is necessary because that is the way God set it up.Tongues is just one proof. Read back to over the post where I traced the Baptism with the Holy Ghost. Supernatural proof, whether tongues, prophecy, miracles or healing followed the preaching of the gospel all through the book of Acts just as Jeus said it would. Signs and wonders show clearly the Jesus is working with us in our gospel ministry.


Mar 16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
Mar 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
Mar 16:17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
Mar 16:18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.
Mar 16:19 So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.
Mar 16:20 And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen.

Signs and wonders - were the PROOF of Jesus' ministry.

Act 2:22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:


Signs and wonders CONFIRMED the ministry of the church in Corinth.

1Co 1:4 I thank my God always on your behalf, for the grace of God which is given you by Jesus Christ;
1Co 1:5 That in every thing ye are enriched by him, in all utterance, and in all knowledge;
1Co 1:6 Even as the testimony of Christ was confirmed in you:
1Co 1:7 So that ye come behind in no gift; waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ:
1Co 1:8 Who shall also confirm you unto the end, that ye may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Paul depended upon signs and wonders as the confirmation of his preaching.

1Co 2:1 And I, brethren, when I came to you, came not with excellency of speech or of wisdom, declaring unto you the testimony of God.
1Co 2:2 For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.
1Co 2:3 And I was with you in weakness, and in fear, and in much trembling.
1Co 2:4 And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:
1Co 2:5 That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.




Paul actually believed that the gospel hadn't been preached fully until it had been confirmed by signs and wonders.

Rom 15:17 I have therefore whereof I may glory through Jesus Christ in those things which pertain to God.
Rom 15:18 For I will not dare to speak of any of those things which Christ hath not wrought by me, to make the Gentiles obedient, by word and deed,
Rom 15:19 Through mighty signs and wonders, by the power of the Spirit of God; so that from Jerusalem, and round about unto Illyricum, I have fully preached the gospel of Christ.



We need to take heed lest we allow these supernatural PROOFS and CONFIRMATIONS to slip away from us and have nothing left to show the world but the words and reasonings of man.

Heb 2:1 Therefore we ought to give the more earnest heed to the things which we have heard, lest at any time we should let them slip.
Heb 2:2 For if the word spoken by angels was stedfast, and every transgression and disobedience received a just recompence of reward;
Heb 2:3 How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him;
Heb 2:4 God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will?


It is God's will that the gospel of Christ be confirmed with signs, wonders, miracles and gifts of the Holy Ghost.

[Fire Watch]

Cool, thanks for sharing that.

By the way, I'm ready for another Rev. Stoneking sermon...that's good stuff.
Sure thing...click (http://www.lrupc.com/videoarchives/Lee_Stoneking/05.10.08_The%20Lord%20is%20Speaking%20in%20this%20 Hour_Lee%20StoneKing.wmv)

[Meriweather]

About 15 for me..13 officially? I was a Oneness Pentecostal at least two years before I knew it had a label :)).

I was raised in a Roman Catholic home..with the influence of an Orthodox Jewish grandmother.

At about the age of 12 I knew that I couldnt be Catholic. Thanks to my Grandmother, I was a monotheist in the strictest sense of the word..that lead me away from trinitarian thought, coupled with my own studies.

At 14 I asked a Baptist minister to baptize me, not in the trinitarian formula, but in the name of Jesus Christ as I saw it being done repeatedly by the Apostles and early church in scripture. I came up from the baptismal speaking in tongues..freaking the poor Baptist preacher out. I knew intellectually what was happening, for I had read about it all throughout the book of Acts..but had never seen it, heard it, heard OF it being done these days..so, I too was a bit shocked.

He quickly informed me that although he appreciated my zeal, I just wouldnt quite "fit" with his congregation. I was disappointed..but ultimately it was God's hand upon my life leading me elsewhere.

I continued studying on my own for a few more years..attending services sporadically at different churches..Methodists, Lutheran, Baptist, whatever, wherever.

At age 16, while reading my Bible at a park near my house, I met a man named Lee Stoneking. He saw me reading, and asked to sit. Over the next couple of hours he asked me about my background..what I was reading..how I comprehended what I was reading..my thoughts upon the subject matter..my religious teaching and leanings. He never tried to "convert" me, or give me a sales pitch..he simply asked and listened..then revealed to me that what I thought, believed, practiced, and had experienced was 100% in line with the doctrines of the United Pentecostal Church. We exchanged numbers and parted ways.

The following week, I was excited..had I finally found a "home"? After researching the UPC, I discovered that he told me the truth..this was who I am.

Rev. Stoneking continues to be a friend and mentor.


A wonderful and touching testimony, Fire Watch.

I was ten, and I know the exact day and year, almost to the hour (about 3 a.m.) when I knew I was meant to be Catholic. However, at sixteen, I was still misinterpreting the Bible to a degree that is still making me laugh today.

[Fire Watch]

Sure thing...click (http://www.lrupc.com/videoarchives/Lee_Stoneking/05.10.08_The%20Lord%20is%20Speaking%20in%20this%20 Hour_Lee%20StoneKing.wmv)
I think this is one that Meri would enjoy..it's really on topic, especially the first few minutes.

[Meriweather]

"Proof" is necessary because that is the way God set it up.Tongues is just one proof. Read back to over the post where I traced the Baptism with the Holy Ghost. Supernatural proof, whether tongues, prophecy, miracles or healing followed the preaching of the gospel all through the book of Acts just as Jeus said it would. Signs and wonders show clearly the Jesus is working with us in our gospel ministry.


Mar 16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
Mar 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
Mar 16:17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
Mar 16:18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.
Mar 16:19 So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.
Mar 16:20 And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen.

Signs and wonders - were the PROOF of Jesus' ministry.

Act 2:22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:


Signs and wonders CONFIRMED the ministry of the church in Corinth.

1Co 1:4 I thank my God always on your behalf, for the grace of God which is given you by Jesus Christ;
1Co 1:5 That in every thing ye are enriched by him, in all utterance, and in all knowledge;
1Co 1:6 Even as the testimony of Christ was confirmed in you:
1Co 1:7 So that ye come behind in no gift; waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ:
1Co 1:8 Who shall also confirm you unto the end, that ye may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Paul depended upon signs and wonders as the confirmation of his preaching.

1Co 2:1 And I, brethren, when I came to you, came not with excellency of speech or of wisdom, declaring unto you the testimony of God.
1Co 2:2 For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.
1Co 2:3 And I was with you in weakness, and in fear, and in much trembling.
1Co 2:4 And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:
1Co 2:5 That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.




Paul actually believed that the gospel hadn't been preached fully until it had been confirmed by signs and wonders.

Rom 15:17 I have therefore whereof I may glory through Jesus Christ in those things which pertain to God.
Rom 15:18 For I will not dare to speak of any of those things which Christ hath not wrought by me, to make the Gentiles obedient, by word and deed,
Rom 15:19 Through mighty signs and wonders, by the power of the Spirit of God; so that from Jerusalem, and round about unto Illyricum, I have fully preached the gospel of Christ.



We need to take heed lest we allow these supernatural PROOFS and CONFIRMATIONS to slip away from us and have nothing left to show the world but the words and reasonings of man.

Heb 2:1 Therefore we ought to give the more earnest heed to the things which we have heard, lest at any time we should let them slip.
Heb 2:2 For if the word spoken by angels was stedfast, and every transgression and disobedience received a just recompence of reward;
Heb 2:3 How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him;
Heb 2:4 God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will?


It is God's will that the gospel of Christ be confirmed with signs, wonders, miracles and gifts of the Holy Ghost.

All right. This one I understand, but I'm still working on #678.

[Meriweather]

I think this is one that Meri would enjoy..it's really on topic, especially the first few minutes.

Thanks, I will view it.

That reminds me, Drew. Your site is down for maintenance, so I still have the last half of yesterday's service to hear, too.

[vir doctus]

DC Talk did a nice cover of it also.

That was the reference...

[RayMan]

That was the reference...


(CID didn't know that. I hate to embarass the kid. He's sensitive.)

Some guy named Arthur Reid Reynolds wrote it. I am very impressed you knew the Byrds did it. Most people only thing Doobie Brothers or DC Talk.

[CID_0687]

Thanks, I will view it.

That reminds me, Drew. Your site is down for maintenance, so I still have the last half of yesterday's service to hear, too.
That happens occasionally...they should have it back up by tomorrow or the next day...they've got their own full time Geek Squad there.

[CID_0687]

(CID didn't know that. I hate to embarass the kid. He's sensitive.)
:naughty: I'm down with the DC Talk

[RayMan]

:naughty: I'm down with the DC Talk


Oh come on. You haven't listened to any Christian music since Jake Hess left Gene Scott's show.

[vir doctus]

I am very impressed you knew the Byrds did it. Most people only thing Doobie Brothers or DC Talk.

I blame my parents that I know both groups. "Hey Mr. Tamborbang my head upon the wall.." :wall:

[vir doctus]

:naughty: I'm down with the DC Talk

What if you stumble? :eh:

[vir doctus]

That happens occasionally...they should have it back up by tomorrow or the next day...they've got their own full time Geek Squad there.

It's a sign.

[RayMan]

I blame my parents that I know both groups. "Hey Mr. Tamborbang my head upon the wall.." :wall:


:mrgreen:

Could have been worse. They could have been DeadHeads. :mrgreen:

[CID_0687]

Oh come on. You haven't listened to any Christian music since Jake Hess left Gene Scott's show.
:))

I'll admit I haven't listened to any in several months, but come on Ray, you're talking what 20 years?

[CID_0687]

What if you stumble? :eh:
And what if I fall? :think:

[RayMan]

And what if I fall? :think:

That's where that whole repentance, confession, forgiveness and restoration thing comes into play.

[Fire Watch]

One of the most beautiful and powerful Christian songs ever written IMO.

Fred Hammond - You Are the Living Word (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OyTYEeZdhK8) <--click

[CID_0687]

That's where that whole repentance, confession, forgiveness and restoration thing comes into play.
Amen

[Fire Watch]

And just a little Pentecostal "throw down" music...

Fred Hammond - Jesus Be a Fence (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ce7LQfY0d30&feature=related) <--Click

[Meriweather]

Here we go. This mostly is in response to RayMan's post #678. Drew, Ray, Rick, I ask forgiveness and forebearance in advance from all of you, if that is needed. Truly I am not meaning this as a challenge, I'm trying only to understand.

I do understand about being given signs and wonders and that we should welcome these. I totally agree about that. But I am puzzled by why we should want our tongue involved in a mind-heart meld with God. Why words at all, even if the words are holy? Don't the words/tongues get in the way of conversing? (I'm thinking, Obviously not, while at the same time wondering how Tongues can't but help get in the way?)

You were speaking of mysteries, or divine secrets--that I understand, as it correlates to Knowledge we are not supposed to have.

"Edifies self"--that, too, I grasp. Giving faith a workout, however, I puzzle over.

You enter into the presence of God while praying in tongues, which sort of awes me, as I have to be still throughout--body, mind, soul.

Drew, your extroverted services are helping me to understand that part of it--that one has to be willing to let go of self, too.

I agree we do not know how to pray as we ought, which is why I have a hard time involving the tongue at all.

However, when I wander too far afield in this discussion, Tongues as signs and wonders does bring me back. I might not yet understand the rest of it, but that is something I can hold onto.

[CID_0687]

This is pretty cool.

Nightline: The Science of Speaking in Tongues

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NZbQBajYnEc

[THE LIGHT]

Are pentecostals as crazy as they are made out to be sometimes?http://bestsmileys.com/bouncing/1.gif

[CID_0687]

Are pentecostals as crazy as they are made out to be sometimes?http://bestsmileys.com/bouncing/1.gif
Depends on your definition of crazy...The Bible says we're a peculiar people, no?

[Meriweather]

This is pretty cool.

Nightline: The Science of Speaking in Tongues

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NZbQBajYnEc


Yes, they did very well with that segment. I liked the fact they included the comments that speaking in Tongues is personal, between you and God. That's something I find easy to get, too.

[THE LIGHT]

Depends on your definition of crazy...The Bible says we're a peculiar people, no?

pssshhaaa we get a little crazy for the Lord! No? I know I do.

[CID_0687]

Yes, they did very well with that segment. I liked the fact they included the comments that speaking in Tongues is personal, between you and God. That's something I find easy to get, too.
And it really is. I speak in tongues more when I'm alone, in my "prayer closet" than when I'm at church.

[CID_0687]

pssshhaaa we get a little crazy for the Lord! No? I know I do.
I like the way you think Zippo.

[Meriweather]

And it really is. I speak in tongues more when I'm alone, in my "prayer closet" than when I'm at church.


Is speaking in Tongues something that can be controlled to some extent, then? Or is the reality that it just tends to happen more often during times...(of whatever those times are)?

I'm feeling almost blown away by the amount of information gained this night. It may need more than just one good night's sleep and one long walk to sort through it all. (To separate my wheat thoughts from my chaff thoughts. ;) )

[CID_0687]

Is speaking in Tongues something that can be controlled to some extent, then? Or is the reality that it just tends to happen more often during times...(of whatever those times are)?

I'm feeling almost blown away by the amount of information gained this night. It may need more than just one good night's sleep and one long walk to sort through it all. (To separate my wheat thoughts from my chaff thoughts. ;) )
Well, speaking in tongues is a very spiritual thing...Can I do it at the drop of a hat? Perhaps...Do I? No.

And right now I'm speaking only for myself...this may be different for others.

You get to that place where you can be by yourself, just you and God...You start praying, and praising, and as you get so involved in the things of God, and consumed by the "fire" you begin to speak in that language that is only meant for you and Him.

This can also happen during a church service...Where the Spirit just engulfs the congregation and everyone is in one mind and one accord, truly focused on the things of God and no focus on the things of this world.

It's an experience like no other...Being bathed in the Spirit of God is something so hard to describe that I don't really know how to explain it...It's just one of those things that until you've had it happen to yourself you can't really get a complete comprehension of it.

And it's in that place within the realm of God that the other extraordinary things take place...Prophecy, healing, working of miracles, etc...Without the Holy Spirit would we be able to do these things? I think not.

Every believer, no matter what their denomination has some knowledge of the Holy Spirit and what can be done through Him, the question then becomes, How far are we willing to go with Him?

[mgifford]

Well, speaking in tongues is a very spiritual thing...Can I do it at the drop of a hat? Perhaps...Do I? No.

And right now I'm speaking only for myself...this may be different for others.

You get to that place where you can be by yourself, just you and God...You start praying, and praising, and as you get so involved in the things of God, and consumed by the "fire" you begin to speak in that language that is only meant for you and Him.

This can also happen during a church service...Where the Spirit just engulfs the congregation and everyone is in one mind and one accord, truly focused on the things of God and no focus on the things of this world.

It's an experience like no other...Being bathed in the Spirit of God is something so hard to describe that I don't really know how to explain it...It's just one of those things that until you've had it happen to yourself you can't really get a complete comprehension of it.

And it's in that place within the realm of God that the other extraordinary things take place...Prophecy, healing, working of miracles, etc...Without the Holy Spirit would we be able to do these things? I think not.

Every believer, no matter what their denomination has some knowledge of the Holy Spirit and what can be done through Him, the question then becomes, How far are we willing to go with Him?


Very good post CID. You nailed it very clearly. I always thought this:
If Pentecolism is fake, then how could Millions upon Millions of Christians over the Centuries possibly want to be part of it?

IOW, how about those that are dearly seeking the truth. Why don't they, (which would be a great percentage) simply throw down and say to the world, it's fake?

You could surely find a Hundred in each large city that will form a group of "Warriors Against Tongues" or something...to stamp out the
falsity and shame of actually declaring that they could have a "Gift" that the "120" received and could possess the gift, for real.

[Meriweather]

I think this is one that Meri would enjoy..it's really on topic, especially the first few minutes.

This morning I got up to listen to Rev. Stoneking for awhile before morning walk, etcetera. I had been meditating along the lines of, "All this sound, it makes no sense to me--I don't understand it or how it works."

I came down and started The Lord is Speaking link. Almost the first thing Rev. Stoneking is saying is, he doesn't understand how people can worship without the clapping, handraising, etcetera--it makes no sense to him.

I started laughing, suddenly feeling so much better. All I do not yet understand sort of went into the background, and I could name what I do understand.

1. Speaking in Tongues is a manifestation or sign of the Holy Spirit, and God has promised signs and wonders.

2. It is a personal experience between one and God, a holy language.

3. It builds faith and keeps one close to God and His love.

What else might Pentecostals wish I understood about Tongues?


The background mystification (that can put up quite a clamour) in my own mind is WHY Tongues are needed for all of the above. That is what I don't yet understand--but after Rev. Stoneking's introductory words, I am now more at peace with that.

[Meriweather]

Very good post CID. You nailed it very clearly. I always thought this:
If Pentecolism is fake, then how could Millions upon Millions of Christians over the Centuries possibly want to be part of it?

IOW, how about those that are dearly seeking the truth. Why don't they, (which would be a great percentage) simply throw down and say to the world, it's fake?

You could surely find a Hundred in each large city that will form a group of "Warriors Against Tongues" or something...to stamp out the
falsity and shame of actually declaring that they could have a "Gift" that the "120" received and could possess the gift, for real.

I don't, and never have thought it is fake at all. People do have unique experiences which take them in various directions. When I thought of it at all (seldom enough), it was more along the lines of, "Sounds really uncomfortable." Even now when I'm learning more about it, I have to admit it still sounds very uncomfortable.

[mgifford]

I don't, and never have thought it is fake at all. People do have unique experiences which take them in various directions. When I thought of it at all (seldom enough), it was more along the lines of, "Sounds really uncomfortable." Even now when I'm learning more about it, I have to admit it still sounds very uncomfortable.

Oh, I understand, but I wasn't referring to you. I never have tried to make anyone with an open mind mad. If you think about it, you'll see that the "Gift" was promised and for some time now delivered.

[Meriweather]

Ray,

Last night I meant to go back and address where you thought I had wandered back to the Unity thread. I was on a bit of a tangent, but not quite so far as the Unity thread.

I was thinking more in terms of unity and the Holy Spirit--or divisiveness and the Holy Spirit. (I've come to bring a sword, not peace vs I pray that you may be one.) Where I was heading with this is, How do Pentecostals see themselves? They have been a fast growing group, bringing together people of all denominations. In that respect, I see unification. However, there is also controversy. I was wondering how Pentecostals viewed this?

[RayMan]

<snip> Where I was heading with this is, How do Pentecostals see themselves? They have been a fast growing group, bringing together people of all denominations. In that respect, I see unification. However, there is also controversy. I was wondering how Pentecostals viewed this?


I believe we would tend to feel that the controversy is on the side of those who don't believe in the validity of the supernatural gifts of the Holy Ghost in the now. We're not trying to force anything on anyone. We just have some different beliefs which we feel are fully substantiated by the N.T. scriptures.

Don't want to start a whole new off-topic conversation but some of the same folk who say that Pentecostalism is controversial because of tongues (the usual complaint) feel that Catholicism is controversial because of it's views on transubstantiation and the perpetual virginity of Mary.

Baptists are controversial in their separatism. Episcopals are VERY controversial these days. LDS have a couple of fairly controversial doctrines. To say Pentecostalism is contoversial verges on being redundant.

[gpd®]

To say Pentecostalism is contoversial verges on being redundant.

I don't know why Ray, but your comments and similar ones by other always remind me of one of my top 10 favorite verses.

John 15:18 If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before [it hated] you.

[RayMan]

I don't know why Ray, but your comments and similar ones by other always remind me of one of my top 10 favorite verses.

John 15:18 If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before [it hated] you.


There's one we tend to forget. Reminds me of a couple other passages:

Matt 5:11 Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake. 12 Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you.

Matt 5:43 ¶Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy. 44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; 45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust. 46 For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same? 47 And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so? 48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.


We need to remember to not get offended or hurt when folk talk trash about Pentecostal beliefs and practices. Rejoice and be exceeding glad!

[CID_0687]

As Rev. Bobby Shepherd use to tell me, once he took me under his wing, "If folks are talkin' about you, you must be doing something right...When they stop talkin' it's time to start worrying."

[CID_0687]

So Scofield is the Baptist Study Bible...which one is the Pentecostal Study Bible?

[RayMan]

So Scofield is the Baptist Study Bible...which one is the Pentecostal Study Bible?


The best one I know of is the Spirit Filled Life Bible. Twenty years ago I would have said Dake but he and I disagree on A LOT of things. For about 25 years Dake's was the only Pentecostal study bible. He seems to have borrowed most of his eschatology from Scofield.

[jet]

So Scofield is the Baptist Study Bible...which one is the Pentecostal Study Bible?

The NIV Children's Bible :shifty:



;)

[RayMan]

The NIV Children's Bible :shifty:



;)

Don't make CID come over to the West County.

[vir doctus]

The best one I know of is the Spirit Filled Life Bible.

Is that anything like Pandora's Box?

[jet]

Don't make CID come over to the West County.

Pffffft. I can't get you to go to Nation's. Ya think I can get CID to come over 12 states?

[RayMan]

Is that anything like Pandora's Box?

No. I would put Dake's more in that category. You open up a Dake's and there's no telling what is going to fly out.

[CID_0687]

Pffffft. I can't get you to go to Nation's. Ya think I can get CID to come over 12 states?
CID has GPS. :razz:

[CID_0687]

The best one I know of is the Spirit Filled Life Bible. Twenty years ago I would have said Dake but he and I disagree on A LOT of things. For about 25 years Dake's was the only Pentecostal study bible. He seems to have borrowed most of his eschatology from Scofield.
Cool, I will check into that.

I like the Scofield, but it doesn't offer much help in ways of the Gifts of the Spirit and whatnot.

[jet]

CID has GPS. :razz:

CID also has Jet's work address because she is too lame to delete her auto signature from e-mail :wall:

So let's get Ray at Nation's...next Friday at noon, k? ;)

[CID_0687]

CID also has Jet's work address because she is too lame to delete her auto signature from e-mail :wall:

So let's get Ray at Nation's...next Friday at noon, k? ;)
CID also has your digits because of that same reason...so if you ever get a strange phone call from a drunken redneck at one in the morning you know who it is. :lol:

[RayMan]

CID also has Jet's work address because she is too lame to delete her auto signature from e-mail :wall:

So let's get Ray at Nation's...next Friday at noon, k? ;)

Note from the I.T. guy. Never use corporate email account to contact anybody for personal reasons. That's why google and yahoo have free web based accounts. Of course if your I.T. department has installed a keylogger on your machine you are still messed up...:mrgreen:

[vir doctus]

...so if you ever get a strange phone call from a drunken redneck at one in the morning you know who it is. :lol:

Bubba! I would have never guessed it was you. :hug:

[CID_0687]

Bubba! I would have never guessed it was you. :hug:
:hug:

:lol:

[jet]

Note from the I.T. guy. Never use corporate email account to contact anybody for personal reasons. That's why google and yahoo have free web based accounts. Of course if your I.T. department has installed a keylogger on your machine you are still messed up...:mrgreen:

Web mail is blocked at work......I'm figuring this website will be soon given all the time I spend here :whistle:

[CID_0687]

Ray,

Does the "Spirit Filled Life Bible" only come in NKJV?

[jet]

CID also has your digits because of that same reason...so if you ever get a strange phone call from a drunken redneck at one in the morning you know who it is. :lol:

Hey..I don't work at night :snooty:

[jet]

Ray,

Does the "Spirit Filled Life Bible" only come in NKJV?

I'm not Ray but CBD has a King James version

http://www.christianbook.com/Christian/Books/easy_find?nav_search=1&event=ESRCN&Dn=0&action=Search&Ntt=Pentecostal&N=1014722&Ne=1000000&Nu=product%2Eendeca%5Frollup&Ntk=keywords

[CID_0687]

Hey..I don't work at night :snooty:
I've been known to ramble on voicemail...My brother hates me because of that.

[jet]

I've been known to ramble on voicemail...My brother hates me because of that.

You can call my voice mail anytime. It has a time limit and will cut you off :D

[vir doctus]

I've been known to ramble on voicemail...My brother hates me because of that.

Drunks are ugly and they leave scars they are too drunk to remember inflicting.

[CID_0687]

You can call my voice mail anytime. It has a time limit and will cut you off :D
:razz:

[jet]

Drunks are ugly and they leave scars they are too drunk to remember inflicting.

Proverbs 20 and 23 come to mind....although I do have a very occasional drink, probably twice a year.

[gpd®]

The best one I know of is the Spirit Filled Life Bible. Twenty years ago I would have said Dake but he and I disagree on A LOT of things. For about 25 years Dake's was the only Pentecostal study bible. He seems to have borrowed most of his eschatology from Scofield.

My mother has the Spirit Filled NKJV Jack Hayford Commentary Bible. She loves it.

[RayMan]

Drunks are ugly and they leave scars they are too drunk to remember inflicting.

Proverbs chapter 23 (TEV)

29 Show me people who drink too much, who have to try out fancy drinks, and I will show you people who are miserable and sorry for themselves, always causing trouble and always complaining. Their eyes are bloodshot, and they have bruises that could have been avoided.

31 Don't let wine tempt you, even though it is rich red, and it sparkles in the cup, and it goes down smoothly. 32 The next morning you will feel as if you had been bitten by a poisonous snake. 33 Weird sights will appear before your eyes, and you will not be able to think or speak clearly. 34 You will feel as if you were out on the ocean, seasick, swinging high up in the rigging of a tossing ship. 35 "I must have been hit," you will say; "I must have been beaten up, but I don't remember it. Why can't I wake up? I need another drink."

[jet]

:razz:

You need to be cut off :naughty:


;)

:hug:

[CID_0687]

Drunks are ugly and they leave scars they are too drunk to remember inflicting.
:cry:

[jet]

Proverbs chapter 23 (TEV)

29 Show me people who drink too much, who have to try out fancy drinks, and I will show you people who are miserable and sorry for themselves, always causing trouble and always complaining. Their eyes are bloodshot, and they have bruises that could have been avoided.

31 Don't let wine tempt you, even though it is rich red, and it sparkles in the cup, and it goes down smoothly. 32 The next morning you will feel as if you had been bitten by a poisonous snake. 33 Weird sights will appear before your eyes, and you will not be able to think or speak clearly. 34 You will feel as if you were out on the ocean, seasick, swinging high up in the rigging of a tossing ship. 35 "I must have been hit," you will say; "I must have been beaten up, but I don't remember it. Why can't I wake up? I need another drink."

Ahem...we were on the same page, Pentecostal Man :D

:hug: Yay us!!!

[CID_0687]

Proverbs chapter 23 (TEV)

29 Show me people who drink too much, who have to try out fancy drinks, and I will show you people who are miserable and sorry for themselves, always causing trouble and always complaining. Their eyes are bloodshot, and they have bruises that could have been avoided.

31 Don't let wine tempt you, even though it is rich red, and it sparkles in the cup, and it goes down smoothly. 32 The next morning you will feel as if you had been bitten by a poisonous snake. 33 Weird sights will appear before your eyes, and you will not be able to think or speak clearly. 34 You will feel as if you were out on the ocean, seasick, swinging high up in the rigging of a tossing ship. 35 "I must have been hit," you will say; "I must have been beaten up, but I don't remember it. Why can't I wake up? I need another drink."
See, that's why I don't drink wine.

[RayMan]

:cry:

You're not AS ugly since you put up the avatar with the dreads. :cool:

[jet]

See, that's why I don't drink wine.

:))

Oh, you are so :naughty:

[RayMan]

See, that's why I don't drink wine.

Wine rhymes with Shine and Shine will do it to you too.

:mrgreen:

[CID_0687]

You're not AS ugly since you put up the avatar with the dreads. :cool:
Thanks Ray. (man hug) :hug:

See Vir, I'm not ugly...in fact I'm not what you would classify as a drunk either...The occasional drink is all I have.

[RayMan]

See, that's why I don't drink wine.

Or fancy girly-man drinks like they have out in California.

[CID_0687]

Wine rhymes with Shine and Shine will do it to you too.

:mrgreen:
I prefer the term Sour Mash.

[jet]

Or fancy girly-man drinks like they have out in California.

Did I tell you the Dead Fish has a drink named after me? The Crabby Mood Martini.....
Great place if you have never been there: http://www.thedeadfish.com/pdf/tdfmenu.pdf

Crabby Mood Martini
Absolut vodka, peach Schnapps, orange juice & cranberry. . . . . . . 7.85

[vir doctus]

See Vir, I'm not ugly...in fact I'm not what you would classify as a drunk either...The occasional drink is all I have.

You must not be Bubba. But he would say the same thing... :shifty:

[RayMan]

I prefer the term Sour Mash.

Since this is October, shouldn't that be the Monster Mash?

[CID_0687]

Did I tell you the Dead Fish has a drink named after me? The Crabby Mood Martini.....
Great place if you have never been there: http://www.thedeadfish.com/pdf/tdfmenu.pdf

Crabby Mood Martini
Absolut vodka, peach Schnapps, orange juice & cranberry. . . . . . . 7.85

:mad:

That is not a Martini!!

:snooty:

[jet]

Since this is October, shouldn't that me Monster Mash?

QFM :mrgreen:

[jet]

:mad:

That is not a Martini!!

:snooty:

I have heard that...but c'mon, it fits!!!

[vir doctus]

Did I tell you the Dead Fish has a drink named after me? The Crabby Mood Martini.....
Great place if you have never been there: http://www.thedeadfish.com/pdf/tdfmenu.pdf

Crabby Mood Martini
Absolut vodka, peach Schnapps, orange juice & cranberry. . . . . . . 7.85


I'll stick with Chevy's, they have 50% off for military.

[CID_0687]

You must not be Bubba. But he would say the same thing... :shifty:
I cannot speak for Bubba, for Bubba I do not know, I can only speak for me, and me am not a drunk.

[CID_0687]

I have heard that...but c'mon, it fits!!!
No it doesn't.

Martini has been turned into the Jezebel of the adult beverage industry.

The true Martini can only be gin, vermouth, and an olive...or a pearl onion, but then it's technically a Gibson.

[jet]

I'll stick with Chevy's, they have 50% off for military.

Chevy's has the best salsa! I agree it's very good.
In fact, that would be another great place for a Bay area meet up.

[jet]

No it doesn't.

Martini has been turned into the Jezebel of the adult beverage industry.

The true Martini can only be gin, vermouth, and an olive...or a pearl onion, but then it's technically a Gibson.

Vermouth and olives :sick:

[RayMan]

Did I tell you the Dead Fish has a drink named after me? The Crabby Mood Martini.....
Great place if you have never been there: http://www.thedeadfish.com/pdf/tdfmenu.pdf

Crabby Mood Martini
Absolut vodka, peach Schnapps, orange juice & cranberry. . . . . . . 7.85


When I was a youngster the Dead Fish was "Vera's Valona Restaurant" very hoity toity Italian place. Then it was "Yet Wah" for a few years. Directly across the Strait from my place. My wife and I used to work at "The Nantucket" which is a stiff drop down the cliff from the Dead Fish and is actually on the water under the bridge.

"The Nantucket" was "La Bouillabaisse" back in the early '70s when we were first married and living in Crockett. I actually put in a stint as a French Chef. Imagine that.

I blame this rambling post on Jet because she brought up Crockett.

[RayMan]

I'll stick with Chevy's, they have 50% off for military.

I did not know that. Good for them!

[RayMan]

Vermouth and olives :sick:


Gin. :sick:

[jet]

When I was a youngster the Dead Fish was "Vera's Valona Restaurant" very hoity toity Italian place. Then it was "Yet Wah" for a few years. Directly across the Strait from my place. My wife and I used to work at "The Nantucket" which is a stiff drop down the cliff from the Dead Fish and is actually on the water under the bridge.

"The Nantucket" was "La Bouillabaisse" back in the early '70s when we were first married and living in Crockett. I actually put in a stint as a French Chef. Imagine that.

I blame this rambling post on Jet because she brought up Crockett.

I'll take the blame! Mr. Jet and I had dinner on our tenth at the Dead Fish. Great food and a funny menu :D

Will have to try this Nantucket sometime :think:

And with that, I am heading home. Enjoy your evening ladies and gentlemen!

[jet]

Gin. :sick:

So much for common ground :razz:

;)

[CID_0687]

I'll take the blame! Mr. Jet and I had dinner on our tenth at the Dead Fish. Great food and a funny menu :D

Will have to try this Nantucket sometime :think:

And with that, I am heading home. Enjoy your evening ladies and gentlemen!
Adios Jet!!


























Maybe we can get this back on track now...talk about hijacking a thread...sheesh!!

[vir doctus]

Gin. :sick:

No cards for you, eh?

[jet]

Adios Jet!!

Maybe we can get this back on track now...talk about hijacking a thread...sheesh!!

You can hang up now :razz:

[CID_0687]

You can hang up now :razz:
Oops. :redface:


Gee, is my face red.

[RayMan]

No cards for you, eh?

I'm more of an UNO kind of guy. CID's the Rummy around hee. :whistle::whistle:

[CID_0687]

I'm more of an UNO kind of guy. CID's the Rummy around hee. :whistle::whistle:
:think: Why does everyone think I'm a lush?

[RayMan]

:think: Why does everyone think I'm a lush?

I don't think anyone does. Paranoid much?

[JenT]

:think: Why does everyone think I'm a lush?

Oh I dunno..."There's a couple of things you should know about me...never expect me to be coherent after I've been drinking, or after 1 AM...and especially if I've been drinking after 1 AM"

wait a minute, I read that wrong...

[CID_0687]

I don't think anyone does. Paranoid much?
Nah, I know I don't have a problem. I don't let on as much as I drink I do.

[CID_0687]

Oh I dunno..."There's a couple of things you should know about me...never expect me to be coherent after I've been drinking, or after 1 AM...and especially if I've been drinking after 1 AM"

wait a minute, I read that wrong...
Yeah, but we're talking like one or two, or at the most three days a week that I'll have a drink.

Last week I only drank the half of the beer that didn't go in the chili pot, and that was all I had.

This week's been a little different.

[CID_0687]

Anyway, can we get back on topic here?

Who has a question for the Pentecostals?

[InvisaGirl]

I have a question. Why do some pentecostals go to church like every day and if you don't go to church 7 days a week they consider you a non christian.

[vir doctus]

I have a question. Why do some pentecostals go to church like every day and if you don't go to church 7 days a week they consider you a non christian.

Only seven days a week? Slackers.

[gpd®]

I have a question. Why do some pentecostals go to church like every day and if you don't go to church 7 days a week they consider you a non christian.

The joy of fellow shipping.

"Iron sharpens iron." Hanging out with other of the like mind help sharpen one's faith.

I'll admit 7 days is really too much. When that happens, our Pastor encourages us to share our talent and skills with the underprivileged or other worthy organizations and don't be such a "churchie."

[CID_0687]

I have a question. Why do some pentecostals go to church like every day and if you don't go to church 7 days a week they consider you a non christian.
That's a new one on me.

Now I do know there are a lot of Pentecostal churches that have very large number of membership. So they'll have different activities almost everyday.

But none of the churches I've been a member of, visited, or ministered in have had a criteria such as what you mentioned. Most keep the standard format of Sunday morning, evening, and Wednesday evening...Although many have started having Saturday evening services and not having Sunday evening.

[RayMan]

Nah, I know I don't have a problem. I don't let on as much as I drink I do.

Well, that's a non-sober statement right there.

[CID_0687]

Well, that's a non-sober statement right there.
Sorry, that's the effects of cold medicine.

[RayMan]

Sorry, that's the effects of cold medicine.

Good save. Nyquil?

[CID_0687]

Good save. Nyquil?
Yes sir.

[RayMan]

Yes sir.

That stuff has almost twice as much alcohol as most wines (20%) plus the drugs they throw in.

[CID_0687]

That stuff has almost twice as much alcohol as most wines (20%) plus the drugs they throw in.
Yeah, but it seems to do the trick...opening up the sinuses that is.

[RayMan]

Yeah, but it seems to do the trick...opening up the sinuses that is.

Thank God for congestion.