The Art of War: The courage to know the enemy, the conviction to know ourselves

[Droog]

Thus we may know that there are five essentials for victory:
He will win who knows when to fight and when not to fight.
He will win who knows how to handle both superior and inferior forces.
He will win whose army is animated by the same spirit throughout all ranks.
He will win who, prepared himself, waits to take the enemy unprepared.
He will win who has military capacity and is not interfered with by the sovereign.

Victory lies in the knowledge of those five points. Hence the saying: If you know the enemy and know yourself, you need not fear the result of a hundred battles.
~Sun Tzu
Knowing the Enemy

America's current foreign policy malaise is the result of our unwillingness or inability to properly diagnose the roots of the current conflict. A doctor cannot treat a disease until he diagnoses it; similarly, we cannot combat our enemy until we define and understand him. Unfortunately, our enemy is a religios ideology that produces an endless number of soldiers who are either eager to die so that we in turn will die, or otherwise live in fear; or who are attempting to overwhelm our cultures demographically. The latter pose a far greater threat to our civilization than the former. Unfortunately however, currently, the former attract the most attention.

The first and foremost issue facing America is, how do the terrorists get here in the first place? Currently, no Islamic state possesses the technology to strike America by military means. Nor does any independent jihadist entity, such as al Qaeda or Hezbollah. They have no navy, no air force, and, currently, they lack the missile technology to strike us.

September 11, 2001 is the root cause of America's involvement in the "GWOT". One of the most common questions asked in its aftermath was, "Could we have prevented this attack?" The answer is most definitely "yes". It had nothing to do with "connecting the dots" or sharing intelligence between the CIA, FBI, and local law enforcement. Not one of the 9-11 hijackers had any business being in America. How did they get here?

Again, this is the result of our inability to diagnose the problem. Currently we do not recognize Islam as the root cause of "terrorism", so we lack the foresight to see that allowing foreign Muslims to roam free in our country is inherently dangerous. If we had recognized this threat prior to 9-11, and had the moral courage to resist political correctness and act on it, September 11 would've been a completely meaningless day in this country's history.

Removing the tragedy of that day, it's obvious that we would not be in Afghanistan right now. Nor would we be in Iraq. Even if we erred in allowing 9-11 to happen, we wouldn't have to worry about Saddam's WMD or terrorist connections if we would have learned our lesson that day, because he and his cohorts in al Qaeda would have no way of getting them into the country. But in the name of cheap labor we allow our borders to be unprotected, and thus we are perpetually and unnecessarily at risk.

Many worry about the costs of fully securing our ports, both air and sea. Considering the alternative - endless billions being wasted in Afghanistan and Iraq - the cost of implementing proper security measures would be of little concern. Nor would the ability to police our borders, as tens of thousands of our soldiers would be in America where they could properly and effectively guard the homeland.

By simply addressing the security of our borders, the mantra "fighting them over there so we don't have to fight them here" becomes devoid of any logic or meaning. This however is only a short-term solution to a long-term problem.

The mantra of our current foreign policy also becomes meaningless in the face of home-grown jihad infesting many European nations and even America. Fighting terrorists abroad means nothing if they're being created within our own borders. How do we begin to address this problem?

To begin with, as an extension of border security, immigration and travel to and from Islamic lands should be banned, or otherwise severely restricted. The true intentions of Muslim foreigners entering the country can never truly be determined, until and if they act or conspire to murder Americans. How many times have we heard a jihadist's family and community express shock that he had attacked, or was caught conspiring to attack, America? Or Britain? One of the London tube bombers was a school teacher. Even if the Muslim traveler is not a threat, there is no guarantee that, like this school teacher, should be be allowed to stay, he or his naturalized offspring will not discover the roots and true meaning of their faith, which is jihad.

By pure demographics alone, much of Europe will develope Muslim majorities within many of our own lifetimes; certainly within the lifetimes of generations in the near future. This cannot be allowed to happen in America. The conditions of non-Muslims living under the heel of Islamic states has never been acceptable in all of Islam's history. Never. Even in what is considered Islam's most tolerant and enlightened era (http://www.geocities.com/ibniblis/andalusia.html), non-Muslims were treated harshly. The laws that governed these states - the Shari'a - are not a relic of a dark period of Islam's distant past: 81% of Muslims in Detroit (http://www.jihadwatch.org/dhimmiwatch/archives/001493.php) somewhat or strongly (59% "strongly") agreed that shari'a should be the law of the land. Christian populations are persecuted in Egypt (http://www.cswusa.com/Countries/Egypt.htm) and the Palestinian territories (http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=20583); Buddhists and Christians are under attack in Thailand (http://www.thestandard.com.hk/news_detail.asp?pp_cat=17&art_id=2006&sid=4713223&con_type=1). The murder (http://www.militantislammonitor.org/article/id/320) of Theo Van Gogh (carried out in the tradition of the prophet (http://www.faithfreedom.org/oped/IbnIblis60218.htm)), the cultural festering in Sweden (http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,139614,00.html), the home-grown jihad (http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=18698) in Britain, the riots (http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=20071) in France: these are all but a taste of what's to come in America if we continue to turn a blind eye to jihad.

Not only must we restrict the flow of Muslim immigrants into our country, but we must completely eliminate the influence of foreign Muslim entities in American Muslim life. Eighty percent (http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1132475689987&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull) of US mosques "have been radicalized by Saudi Money and influence". This is done by offering to build mosques more splendid than Islamic communities could afford to build, with the condition that the congregation be led by a Saudi-approved imam. Is it a coincidence that the same percentage of Muslims in America's most populous Muslim community advocate a grotesque and offensive legal code such as the Shari'a? The Fiqh Council of North America (http://www.ajc.org/site/apps/nl/content3.asp?c=ijITI2PHKoG&b=846739&ct=1256033), the Muslim organization that produced the ridiculous fatwah (http://www.washingtontimes.com/op-ed/20050807-092808-8354r_page2.htm) condemning "terrorism", is linked to Saudi Arabia, Pakistani extremists and the Muslim Brotherhood. The Council on American-Islamic Relations (CAIR) was founded and is funded (http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=18919) by terrorists organizations. Omar Ahmad (http://www.cair-net.org/default.asp?Page=Board&person=Omar) and Nihad Awad (http://www.pluralism.org/events/interfaculty2003/guest_bios/awad.php), CAIR's founders, are former officials of the Islamic Association of Palestine (IAP), and IAP’s president, Rafeeq Jabar, is one of CAIR's founding directors. Former FBI counterterrorism chief Oliver "Buck" Revell has described (http://worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=43805) the IAP as a "a front organization for Hamas," and this accusation was affirmed when a federal judge in Chicago found the IAP guilty (http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2004-12-09-slaying-suit_x.htm) of aiding and abetting Hamas in the murder of David Boim, a 17-year-old American citizen. Further, it was discovered that CAIR exploited the 9/11 attacks (http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=13175) to raise funds for two Hamas-linked fundraising organizations, the Holy Land Foundation (http://www.treas.gov/press/releases/po3340.htm) and the Global Relief Foundation (http://www.treas.gov/offices/enforcement/key-issues/protecting/charities_execorder_13224-e.shtml).

Continued...

[Droog]

The truth of the matter is, 'Moderate' Muslims are either ignorant or lying about the basic tenets of their faith, most important to us is the pillar of jihad. In either case they are dangerous, because the former promotes the idea of benign Islam, which a simple overview of their basic texts proves impossible; the latter is simply a clandestine agent of jihad, spreading propaganda about Islam to throw us off their scent.

You may ask, "what's wrong with the idea of benign Islam, even if, fundamentally, it's a lie?" First of all, it makes it easier for demographic jihad to take hold, because nobody will pay attention to what they're doing - such as exploiting terrorist attacks they claim their religion is not responsible for to raise money for organizations who fund and aid similar attacks. Second, it allows the PC-elite to declare that the terrorists are not true Muslims (http://www.beliefnet.com/story/90/story_9052_1.html), and that this "extremist" movement is something new and can somehow be defeated by promoting freedom and democracy, concepts which are not only alien to Islam, but fully contradict it.

Long-term Foreign Policy

The likelihood of an Islamic state acquiring the military might necessary to strike directly at the American heartland is slim to none, with one exception: nuclear weapons and intercontinental ballistic missiles (ICBMs). In the current environment this is the one case where military action would be warranted. However there are steps we can take to halt their progress by non-military means.

The Islamic world is pretty much the most worthless tracts of land in the world, save for one resource: oil. Restricted in free thought and innovation as they are by their religion, which recognizes no better or otherwise acceptable guidance than itself, it is little wonder why little of worth originates in their lands. Without oil the Islamic world would be mired in squalor and decadence. History bears this out. Before oil the Islamic state was sustained by jihad alone; its wealth and knowledge were stolen from the host civilizations: India, Byzantium, Europe. Without oil jihad will be Islam's only recourse to sustain itself, but without oil and with its dilapidated military, and, again, mentally confined by the oppresiveness of their religion, Islam will lack the capabilities to survive at all, much less pose a threat to the rest of the world by developing nuclear and long-range missile technology. Utilizing their oil wealth is the only means available to them to bridge the military gap between the Islamic world and the Western powers.

The solution is not to cease purchasing oil from Islamic states; other nations will pick up the slack. The solution is what many term a "New Manhattan Project" to develope an alternative to oil that could be shared with the world so that oil would become a useless commodity to the enemies of Western civilization, in whose lands the majority of the world's oil reserves rest. We are purchasing our own destruction by continuing to suck up an energy source that should not be necessary given what it is used for (jihad) and given the potential for us to develope other sources that cannot be used as a weapon against us.

Know Yourself

It is a sobering but acceptable fact that, unless we resort to barbaric and immoral methods, we lack the will and the ability to win this war. Yes, we could easily fight this war until the end of the world, and the death toll for the jihadists would be catostrophic. This of course ignores the fact that we are fighting an ememy that not only does not care about their death tolls, but views these deaths as glorious to their cause. And given the fact that we live in a society where even a single death is focused on like a laser beam and exploited to advance political agendas, it is clear we lack the will to fight this war forever. As Sun Tzu said, he will win who knows when to fight and when not to fight.

Killing "terrorists" is like engaging an enemy on the battlefield by shooting at the ammunition he is firing. The terrorists are the ammunition; Allah is the one firing at us. Since we can't kill Allah, it makes no sense to fight his followers. With 1.2 Billion Muslims in the world, and with Islam the fastest growing religion in the world, we cannot stem the tide killing a few dozen jihadists a day. We can't stop future generations from devoutly practicing their religion, which rejects the very ideas we're trying to inject into their civilization. And again, killing them in their own lands means little if they're allowed to establish a foothold and conspire to destroy our society within our own borders.

So in this conflict, knowing the enemy goes hand in hand with knowing yourself. We need to know ourselves, and have the courage to see what we see and say so: that it is a religious ideology that is the root cause of the conflict that plagues the world today and threatens our way of life. We need to have the conviction to stand up and say that plain truth is not hate speech, it is not discrimination, and it is entirely different than what Hitler did to the Jews. Hitler lied about the Jews to stir up hatred for them and support for his anti-Jewish programs. The "Jewish Blood Libel" and the "Protocols of the Learned Elders of Zion" are not the equivalent to jihad. The former were myths promoted for propaganda purposes; the latter is reality. And while Hilter's solution to the "Jewish question" was genocide, our solution should be simple disengagement. If Muslims want to practice Islam, and all the aspects of it that we in civilization find so offensive, let them - in their own lands. We need the courage to determine that our civilization is worth saving, and worth accepting uncomfortable truths in order to save it.

Do we possess it?

http://www.geocities.com/ibniblis/artofwar.html

[Droog]

Had a feeling this would sink.

[Cav Scout]

Most likley their are very few who know the meaning of what you just wrote.

[Droog]

I think many people understand that Islam is the root of our problems in this conflict but are too hardened by pride to admit we lack the capabilities to win this militarily. And God forbid we admit as much to the rest of the world.

But the issue now is our survival, not our credibility or our prestige. The nature of warfare has shifted, largely due to the characteristics of the ideology we're fighting, which glorifies death and uses our respect for human life against us. We can defeat any army in the world head-to-head. But our enemies don't fight in this manner anymore.

[Cav Scout]

I think many people understand that Islam is the root of our problems in this conflict but are too hardened by pride to admit we lack the capabilities to win this militarily. And God forbid we admit as much to the rest of the world.

But the issue now is our survival, not our credibility or our prestige. The nature of warfare has shifted, largely due to the characteristics of the ideology we're fighting, which glorifies death and uses our respect for human life against us. We can defeat any army in the world head-to-head. But our enemies don't fight in this manner anymore.

yes there are many of us that understand it, but not enough, more disturbing though is that the ones who dont, wont listen.

[Loyal American]

Very good thread Droog!

[Phil McKracken]

Very good post Droog.......but the phrase " pearls before swine " comes to mind.

[Droog]

If one person listens it's good enough for me.

[JeffCon]

More listen than you think. It is most important that you do not give up. If it were easy, everyone would be doing it. -JeffCon

don't forget, you promised me an autographed first edition.

[Droog]

Aww hell no I ain't givin up. I'm not sure how much effect I'm having on Hannity but I've been schooling the **** out of people outside of work. People fightin me like mad too but I wipe the floor with them because they don't know anything about Islam. They get so mad sometimes, cuz they can't prove me wrong but they just KNOW I'm a bigot anyway. :))

It's funny sometimes. But most people are very receptive.

And yes, you get an autographed first edition. I'm working on chapter 5 now, about Palestine and Jews. That's gonna take a while. Did you read my essay on Andalusia? That's more or less a direct excerpt from the chapter on Arab conquests.

[Cav Scout]

Aww hell no I ain't givin up. I'm not sure how much effect I'm having on Hannity but I've been schooling the **** out of people outside of work. People fightin me like mad too but I wipe the floor with them because they don't know anything about Islam. They get so mad sometimes, cuz they can't prove me wrong but they just KNOW I'm a bigot anyway. :))

It's funny sometimes. But most people are very receptive.

And yes, you get an autographed first edition. I'm working on chapter 5 now, about Palestine and Jews. That's gonna take a while. Did you read my essay on Andalusia? That's more or less a direct excerpt from the chapter on Arab conquests.

I want one too!!!

[Loyal American]

don't forget, you promised me an autographed first edition.


How do you rate this? :think:

[PaleoPaul]

Good post.

[drgray7]

Stellar analysis, as usual, Droog. Put me down for a first edition, also. PM me where to send the money.

[Droog]

Thanks. Took a reading/writing hiatus for most of the summer, but I'm back in the swing of things.

[thr3]

Oh very wise Sun Tzu was.

[bigtwnvin]

Most likley their are very few who know the meaning of what you just wrote.
I do. General Vo Nguyen Giap lived by the writings of Sun Tu. And all of Giaps little commie bastard followers were convinced Giap (they had no choice) was supreme!
We kicked their azzes' with overwhelming firepower and resources. They made pain in the azz booby traps out of beer cans & C-rat garbage and waited till the morons at home and the politico 'fraidy cats made us pack up and go home. Pitiful.:wall:

[herrong]

Excellent post Droog.

You are correct in your analysis. Most Americans don't have a clue or don't care. That was quite evident from the Fox Dynamics Poll last Thursday. Only12 percent of those polled thought terrorism was the top issue, with the economy getting top bill. Even though it was 3rd on the list, that still means 88 percent did not feel this was an important enough issue.

Even if you can only convince one more person, you are heading in the right direction. :)

[JeffCon]

How do you rate this? :think:

I was the first to recognize the genius of the man. The briliance, the clarity and the depth.

Plus I asked first. :razz:

[Celtic Pax]

Had a feeling this would sink.

It won't sink but most Americans and westerners will not understand it or understand what it all means when it comes to confronting muslims.

I am reading a book now, "The Myth of Islamic Tolerance" edited by Robert Spencer, that essentially points out what you have posted.

Islam has never been a tolerant religion, EVER. The tolerance it has shown is (in the ideas of the author) more closer to the idea of a prison or concentration camp environment for non-believers. Where they are tolerated as long as they pay the Jizya that allows them to live under grave restrictions.

Non-believers are NEVER considered to be the equals of muslms, NEVER allowed to have authority over muslims and always live under a death sentence, waiting to be carried out at the whim of the "muslim prison officials".

The only time muslims are tolerant and a peaceful religion is when they are the minority in any country where the host country will not tolerate their intolerance. Where they are in the majority, they practice intolerance against any and all non-believers unless moderated by western pressure. Then the intolerance goes underground with a wink from the government to carry on as usual.

[Loyal American]

I was the first to recognize the genius of the man. The briliance, the clarity and the depth.

Plus I asked first. :razz:

Yeah, yeah, yeah..............we all recognized the diamond so where is my signed copy? :razz:

[Droog]

The only time muslims are tolerant and a peaceful religion is when they are the minority in any country where the host country will not tolerate their intolerance. Where they are in the majority, they practice intolerance against any and all non-believers unless moderated by western pressure. Then the intolerance goes underground with a wink from the government to carry on as usual. There was a time in Andalusia (Muslim Spain) when Jews held positions of prominence. The a jurist named Abu Ishaq wrote this anti-Jewish ode that sent the Muslims on a bloody rampage:
Go, my messenger, go and relate these words to all the Sinhejites - the full moons and lions of our days - these words of a man who loves them, who pities them, and who believes that he would fail in his religious duties if he did not give them salutory counsels:

Your master has done a deed at which his ill-wishers rejoice: though he could choose a minister among believers, he has chosen an infidel! Through his minister, the Jews, contemptable outcasts, have become great lords, and their pride and arrogance know no bounds. When they least expected it they have obtained their heart's desire; they have attained the highest honors, so that the vilest ape among these unbelievers today reckons among his menials a multitude of pious and devout Moslems. And all this not by any efforts of their own. Nay! he who has raised them so high is a man of our own religion! Ah, why did he not follow the example set him by devout princes of the days gone by? Why did he not humble the Jews and treat them as the vilest of mortals? Then in droves they would have led among us a vagabond life, the target of our aversion and disdain; then they would not have treated our nobles with arrogance and our saints with scorn; then would not these vile creatures have sat by our side and ridden with the nobles of our court.

O Badis (the amir), you are a sagacious man, and your conjectures are very sooth; how then were you blind to the evil which would be done by these demons who lift up their horns in your dominions? How could you show affection for those bastards who have made you odious in men's sight? How can you hope to establish your power when these wretches pull down what you build up? How can you place such confidence in a villain, and make him your family friend? Have you forgotten how that the Almighty has said in His Book that we should have no fellowship with the ungodly? Take not such men for your ministers, but abandon them to curses, for the whole earth cries out against them - before long will it quake and we shall all perish. Turn your eyes to other lands and behold how the Jews are treated as dogs, and kept apart. Where you alone take another course, you, O prince beloved of your people, descended from a line of kings, you who surpasses your contemporaries even as your ancestors surpassed theirs?

I came to Grenada, and there I beheld the Jews reigning. they had parcelled out the provinces and the capital between them: everywhere one of these accursed ruled. They collected the taxes, they made good cheer, they were sumptuously clad, while your garments, O Muslims, were old and worn out. All the secrets of the state were known to them; yet it is folly to put trust in traitors! While believers ate the bread of poverty, they dined delicately in the palace. They have supplanted you in your master's favor, O Muslims, and will you not oppose them? Will you suffer them? They slaughter oxen and sheep in our markets, and you eat without scruple the flesh of beasts unclean in their eyes! The chief of these apes has adorned his mansion with incrustations of marble, and has made fountains from where limpid waters flow; and while we stand waiting at the gate he scoffs at us and our religion. Great God! What disgrace! If I were to say that he is as rich as you are, my king, I should speak truth. Ah, hasten to slay him, and offer him up as a burnt-offering! Sacrifice him, for he is a fat ram! Spare not his kinsfolk and his friends, for they too have heaped up great riches. Take their wealth; you who has more right to it than they. Think not that it would be treachery to slay them! Nay, but true treachery it is to suffer them to sit in high places. They have broken their covenant with us; who then would dare to blame you if you punish the perjurers? How can we thrive if we live in the shade and the Jews dazzle us with their glory and their pride?

[Celtic Pax]

The results of that:


In Granada, the Jewish viziers Samuel Ibn Naghrela, and his son Joseph, who protected a once flourishing Jewish community, were both assassinated between 1056 to 1066, followed by the annihilation of the Jewish population by the local Muslim community. At least three thousand Jews perished in an uprising surrounding the 1066 assassination, alone16. The Muslim Berber Almohads in Spain and North Africa (1130-1232) wreaked enormous destruction on both the Jewish and Christian populations. This devastation- massacre, captivity, and forced conversion- was described by the Jewish chronicler Abraham Ibn Daud, and the poet Abraham Ibn Ezra. Suspicious of the sincerity of the Jewish converts to Islam, Muslim “inquisitors” (i.e., antedating their Christian Spanish counterparts by three centuries) removed the children from such families, placing them in the care of Muslim educators17. Maimonides, the renowned philosopher and physician, experienced the Almohad persecutions, and had to flee Cordova with his entire family in 1148, temporarily residing in Fez- disguised as a Muslim- before finding asylum in Fatimid Egypt. Indeed, although Maimonides is frequently referred to as a paragon of Jewish achievement facilitated by the enlightened rule of Muslim Spain, his own words debunk this utopian view of the Islamic treatment of Jews:

"..the Arabs have persecuted us severely, and passed baneful and discriminatory legislation against us...Never did a nation molest, degrade, debase, and hate us as much as they..

http://www.secularislam.org/articles/bostom3.htm

[Droog]

http://www.geocities.com/ibniblis/andalusia.html

I like mine better. ;)

[Droog]

Is there no one who disagrees that if our borders were secure we wouldn't be at war right now?

Does anyone disagree that securing our borders makes it unnecessary to "fight them in Baghdad so we don't have to fight them in St Louis"?

Is anyone prepared to point this out to their congressmen?

[Xena]

I was the first to recognize the genius of the man. The briliance, the clarity and the depth.

Plus I asked first. :razz:

Many of us recognized Droog's expertise long before you joined here. :razz:

[thr3]

I was the first to recognize the genius of the man. The briliance, the clarity and the depth.

Plus I asked first. :razz:

Of Sun Tzu?

[owlhoot]

If one person listens it's good enough for me.

We who care listen... unfortunately it is like preaching to the converted. THose who need convincing have too many rationales for why they do not believe it. We can only hope that more of our side remain in power to defend us.

[Xena]

At least Sean knows. I really wish he would post here . . . though he'd likely get banned. :eh:

[herrong]

At least Sean knows. I really wish he would post here . . . though he'd likely get banned. :eh:

I remember reading a post awhile back from one of the MOD's that said he does come on to the forum. IMO he probably has a different user name from his real name, like most everyone else on here. To me that seems likely and a smart move too. At least he could debate with us without turning the threads into discussing WITH him. Again this is only MY OPINION. ;)

[Celtic Pax]

http://www.geocities.com/ibniblis/andalusia.html

I like mine better. ;)

Like that one too. Too bad most Euroweenies don't bother to read up on their own history with Islam.

[thr3]

Like that one too. Too bad most Euroweenies don't bother to read up on their own history with Islam.

Shame really. 1000 to 1500 really is a most interetsing period-if you are ageek I suppose.

[Celtic Pax]

Or if you intend to educate yourself about the origins of present day threats. Know thy Enemy applies today as at any time in history. But then again, some perfer to ignore history and spin myth instead. Liberals perfer fiction to facts. Facts are so messy for them to contemplate.

[thr3]

Or if you intend to educate yourself about the origins of present day threats. Know thy Enemy applies today as at any time in history. But then again, some perfer to ignore history and spin myth instead. Liberals perfer fiction to facts. Facts are so messy for them to contemplate.

I wouldn't juist say it is ;liberals who have this problem, many people do.

[FranklySpeaking]

Aww hell no I ain't givin up. I'm not sure how much effect I'm having on Hannity but I've been schooling the **** out of people outside of work. People fightin me like mad too but I wipe the floor with them because they don't know anything about Islam. They get so mad sometimes, cuz they can't prove me wrong but they just KNOW I'm a bigot anyway. :))

It's funny sometimes. But most people are very receptive.

And yes, you get an autographed first edition. I'm working on chapter 5 now, about Palestine and Jews. That's gonna take a while. Did you read my essay on Andalusia? That's more or less a direct excerpt from the chapter on Arab conquests.

Ahhh, so you're still working at it. Good !

See, I really was just starting to read this thread.

Great Post !

[FranklySpeaking]

I was the first to recognize the genius of the man. The briliance, the clarity and the depth.

Plus I asked first. :razz:

Oh puh-leazzz ! :hand: from someone who has only been on this board since when ? May of 2006 ? I do not believe your words are true !!!

Unless of course ... you are a retre .... ... :think: surely not !


;)

[LindaLR]

Droog, awsome conveyance of thought, we must be stronger than islam, and louder than their protectors and appeasers, the left.

[JeffCon]

Oh puh-leazzz ! :hand: from someone who has only been on this board since when ? May of 2006 ? I do not believe your words are true !!!

Unless of course ... you are a retre .... ... :think: surely not !


;)

Illustrates my own brilliance and wisdom in recognizing genius.

BTW DROOG, send back those contracts making me your agent, I am working on a three book deal, and want to book on the talk show circuit.

[Droog]

Let's be clear here:

While there are a scarce few on the Left who truly recognize the problem, there aren't that many more on the Right. Particularly in politics. I can't say this enough: politics is about expediency. If it's not politically-expedient to say Islam is the real threat - ie if a politician can't say it without having his career destroyed by the PC gestapo - then 99 times out of a hundred they're not going to say it.

It's our job to create an environment where it not only is politically-expedient to say Islam is the threat, but to make it politically-inexpedient NOT TO say so - ie vote those who continue to cowtow to the Islamophiles like CAIR and the ACLU out of office. What politicians care about most is staying in power. Whatever they can do to stay there they're gonna do. Politics and principles rarely mesh.

It sounds cynical but that's the reality of it.

[opsyscw]

The true intentions of Muslim foreigners entering the country can never truly be determined, until and if they act or conspire to murder Americans.This single sentence justifies securing our borders.

[LeighGionaire]

I was the first to recognize the genius of the man. The briliance, the clarity and the depth.



What's it like being fawned over by the acolytes Droog?

[LeighGionaire]

We who care listen... unfortunately it is like preaching to the converted.

And Droog wonders why I call him the Guru . . . .

[JeffCon]

Let's be clear here:

While there are a scarce few on the Left who truly recognize the problem, there aren't that many more on the Right.
It sounds cynical but that's the reality of it.

The LEFT does not agree, the RIGHT is afraid. Moderates have nol position.

[GWiz]

And Droog wonders why I call him the Guru . . . .:eek: Guru? Didn't you know that Droog is THE PROFIT err THE PROPHET for the ANTI-MUSLIM / ANTI-ISLAM "community" residing here?

[Xena]

Wake up and grow up people! Sheesh. :rolleyes:

[Loyal American]

Wake up and grow up people! Sheesh. :rolleyes:

I hear you! :rolleyes: :whistle: :doh:

[Droog]

H8Rz

[ICRed]

Is there no one who disagrees that if our borders were secure we wouldn't be at war right now?

Does anyone disagree that securing our borders makes it unnecessary to "fight them in Baghdad so we don't have to fight them in St Louis"?

Is anyone prepared to point this out to their congressmen?
I have, Droog. But, I will again. Notice how Santorum is starting to call this enemy for what it is?

Now...getting them to drop the "fascism", and just name "islam" will probably be almost impossible.:rolleyes:

Securing the northern and southern borders is one thing....but what about stopping them from coming in via boat/plane? And, acquiring the gonads to actually carry it out, due to pc'ness, the ACLU, the libs that already don't want strict enforcement on our land borders...THOSE are all challenges.

Now, if we can get all of the "libs" out of office, and hound the republicans, we MIGHT have a chance.

I will send this to my reps. I LOVE to hound them with great pieces like this !!

GREAT POST !!

[Droog]

I wish there was better discussion on this subject. I'd like to get some supporters of the current policy in here to tell me how it makes any sense at all. Even if I were to digress on the point of who the actual enemy is, I'd still like to know why we need to fight them over there so we don't have to fight them here if we could simply secure our borders instead. How do they get here unless we let them in?

Anyone?

Beuller?

[LindaLR]

Often Droog, the simplest point is the hardest to understand. Belgium is waking up, sortof, France might never, England sees NOTHING! And some of us here are being pretty loud about "why are they here, inside?"
When the door is left open, people walk in and take what is not nailed down.
When someone just walks into your house, why were they at the door in the first place? Percentages are not in your favor that they were there for good, not evil.

[Droog]

I'm afraid it's far too late for Europe to wake up. They're all dead. They just don't know it yet.

[JeffCon]

I wish there was better discussion on this subject. I'd like to get some supporters of the current policy in here to tell me how it makes any sense at all. Even if I were to digress on the point of who the actual enemy is, I'd still like to know why we need to fight them over there so we don't have to fight them here if we could simply secure our borders instead. How do they get here unless we let them in?

Anyone?

Beuller?

It is not enought to fight them Droog, it is necessary to win too. Fighting them over there is a good idea, we are just not winning. If we leave them alone over there, we abandon Israel, and we leave the nuclear door open. If the Mohammedans don't use it, Israel might be forced too.

There is no way to remain apart from this because it is a struggle for the very survival on civilization.

[Droog]

When have we ever given direct aid to Israel? Again, Muslims lack the ability to think for themselves so long as they hold to the belief that the only acceptable guidance is Islam. Without oil, what would they have? Nothing unless they stole it from other societies, cultures, or nations. OK that's not true they're making lots of heroin in Afghanistan.

Israel is perfectly capable, with our weapons which I am delighted we supply them with, of taking care of itself. Of course, Iran must not be allowed to acquire nukes, but this is an exception. No other Muslim nation is as advanced in nuclear technology as they are, and if we cut off their oil they'll never get them, much less develope the technology to deliver them. OK Pakistan has nukes, but they'll start a war with India before they attack Israel, and India would crush them.

Should we bomb Iran? We should've started the bombing yesterday. The whole world knows exactly where diplomacy is going with these lunatics. Let's dispense with the pleasantries and get it over with. That's as far as it needs to go if we take control of the situation, which means cutting off jihad's lifeblood (oil).

What exactly is the endgame if we don't annihilate their entire civilization? Endless war? Even if we develope the balls to beat them into complete submission - and that idea is a complete joke in today's day and age, when, again, you can't kill someone without someone charging you with warcrimes - they'll just blame the whole episode on their lack of faith in Allah, rebuild and re-arm, probably with our help knowing us.

History has borne this scenario out: unless you eliminate Islam itself there will be conflict. Right now we possess the means to destroy them without firing a shot, because their culture is utterly impotent.

[OldSarge]

Thus we may know that there are five essentials for victory:
He will win who knows when to fight and when not to fight.
He will win who knows how to handle both superior and inferior forces.
He will win whose army is animated by the same spirit throughout all ranks.
He will win who, prepared himself, waits to take the enemy unprepared.
He will win who has military capacity and is not interfered with by the sovereign.

Victory lies in the knowledge of those five points. Hence the saying: If you know the enemy and know yourself, you need not fear the result of a hundred battles.
~Sun Tzu



First off, you ALMOST got the quote right.
The end SHOULD have included:

One who does not know the enemy but knows himself will sometimes win, sometimes lose.

One who does not know the enemy and does not know himself will be in danger in every battle.

You don't demonstrate much knowledge of the enemy's basic tactics or overall strategy, and you're pretty iffy on seeing both the strengths AND weaknesses of "yourself".

Then you begin with a false premise:


America's current foreign policy malaise is the result of our unwillingness or inability to properly diagnose the roots of the current conflict. A doctor cannot treat a disease until he diagnoses it; similarly, we cannot combat our enemy until we define and understand him. Unfortunately, our enemy is a religios ideology that produces an endless number of soldiers who are either eager to die so that we in turn will die, or otherwise live in fear; or who are attempting to overwhelm our cultures demographically. The latter pose a far greater threat to our civilization than the former. Unfortunately however, currently, the former attract the most attention.


Looking at that logically, the flaw is obvious:
The basis for this entire premise is the assumption that the "diagnosis" is wrong, based solely on what is perceived as the "current treatment" we are applying to the "disease".

Plus, you got the wrong disease - or, at the very least, have misdiagnosed the sypmtoms.

You seem to think that it's possible to eradicate a religion.
Make no mistake - DESPITE the "reasonable" platitudes at the end of the article about letting Muslims do whatever they want in "Muslim countries" - what you are proposing is genocide on a scale unimagined by even Hitler or Stalin - since there IS no other "cure" for ANY religion...you can't kill a belief system without slaughtering all its adherents, and even then it will still go on.

Case(s) in point: The Romans and Christianity, Hitler and Judaism, Stalin and ANY religion....

You try to make a stab at Isolationism - fuel independence (which is a GOOD thing), isolating ourselves from the "Muslim countries", etc. - but what you completely ignore is the fact that ideologies DO NOT have to sneak across any borders in human form....not with the internet and satellite TV.

Case in point:
"Home-Grown" terrorists, like the ones that hit London on 7/7 last year.

Would you seal the borders against information - and the possible ideologies it might carry?

That's censorship.......ask the (now-defunct) Soviet Union how well THAT worked.

You pay WAY too much attention to how the mud-stream muddy-ya is spinning the "news" with their nightly broadcasts and daily newsrags..........

...and since the premise is provably false, the rest of the rant can be used to line the bird cage. There's some good points in there, but they'd need to be applied in a completely different context.

You really should read Miyamoto Musashi's "Book of Five Rings".
In it, Musashi outlines his "9 Rules of Strategy", the first of which states:

DO NOT THINK DISHONESTLY.
...in other words, don't lie to yourself.

You failed that first rule, so the rest are useless to you until you learn it......

BTW, there's also this gem:


September 11, 2001 is the root cause of America's involvement in the "GWOT". One of the most common questions asked in its aftermath was, "Could we have prevented this attack?" The answer is most definitely "yes". It had nothing to do with "connecting the dots" or sharing intelligence between the CIA, FBI, and local law enforcement. Not one of the 9-11 hijackers had any business being in America. How did they get here?


They flew in on airliners - most of 'em with Saudi visas - then simply "overstayed" those visas...and they got those Saudi visas thanks to a Sick Willie (mis)Administration program for "fast-tracking" applications, where the applicants didn't have to present anything more than a (easily forged) "proof" of citizenship.
They didn't even have to set foot in the AMERICAN Consulate to get them! The same liberalite "plant" who skewed things on the 9/11 commission - Gorelick - was part of the passle of idiots who implemented "fast-tracking" for Saudi "nationals".

Don't get me wrong - I'm a MinuteMan volunteer and would like nothing better than to get some solid control of our borders, ports and visa/passport system - but without hitting the terrorists where they live and spread their toxic ideology, the kind of Isolationism you're proposing is merely shutting the door on a tornado.....right before an earthquake hits.

>>>edited to correct some really lousy spelling....

[Droog]

First of all, I know what Sun Tzu says in this particular chapter. Maybe I should edit the essay and quote the entire book.

And you obviously have a serious comprehension problem if you think I'm advocating genocide. Never mind your spelling. I really don't have anything else to say to you if you read "disengagement" and see "genocide". That's just retarded.

[OldSarge]

First of all, I know what Sun Tzu says in this particular chapter. Maybe I should edit the essay and quote the entire book.


No need for that....just try to get the FULL meaning of the part you cite.

And you obviously have a serious comprehension problem if you think I'm advocating genocide. Never mind your spelling. I really don't have anything else to say to you if you read "disengagement" and see "genocide". That's just retarded.


"Comprehension problem"?????
Seems like that's YOUR department.

Here's the relevant part again...in case you missed it the first time....

Make no mistake - DESPITE the "reasonable" platitudes at the end of the article about letting Muslims do whatever they want in "Muslim countries" - what you are proposing is genocide on a scale unimagined by even Hitler or Stalin - since there IS no other "cure" for ANY religion...you can't kill a belief system without slaughtering all its adherents, and even then it will still go on.


...did that make it any easier for ya?

And, since we are ALREADY ENGAGED, then - by definition! - "Disengagement" means "RETREAT".
Period.
Look it up.

Running away - a la Sick Willie's retreat orders after Mogadishu - is a sure-fire way of ENCOURAGING the terrorists to attack us MORE!

If you have ANY doubts about that, here it is - in his own words...
...in the "Declaration of Jihad" that Oh-Mama bin-Hidin' published in 1996!

http://www.terrorismfiles.org/individuals/declaration_of_jihad2.html

"...But your most disgraceful case was in Somalia; where- after vigorous propaganda about the power of the USA and its post cold war
leadership of the new world order- you moved tens of thousands of
international force, including twenty eight thousands American solders
into Somalia. However, when tens of your solders were killed in minor
battles and one American Pilot was dragged in the streets of Mogadishu you left the area carrying disappointment, humiliation, defeat and your dead
with you. Clinton appeared in front of the whole world threatening and
promising revenge , but these threats were merely a preparation for
withdrawal. You have been disgraced by Allah and you withdrew; the extent
of your impotence and weaknesses became very clear. It was a pleasure for the "heart" of every Muslim and a remedy to the "chests" of believing
nations to see you defeated in the three Islamic cities of Beirut , Aden
and Mogadishu.


Now, what was that about a "comprehension problem"?

You need to do one of two things:
Either do the research or rename your "essay".

"Knowing Your Enemy"....????

....not by a long shot..........ROFLMAO!

[Droog]

Again your comprehension problem. I never said we needed to kill any belief system. The point of the argument is to limit its influence in America. If you had read and understood the essay, you would've seen that I specifically said:
It is a sobering but acceptable fact that, unless we resort to barbaric and immoral methods, we lack the will and the ability to win this war. Yes, we could easily fight this war until the end of the world, and the death toll for the jihadists would be catostrophic. This of course ignores the fact that we are fighting an ememy that not only does not care about their death tolls, but views these deaths as glorious to their cause. And given the fact that we live in a society where even a single death is focused on like a laser beam and exploited to advance political agendas, it is clear we lack the will to fight this war forever. As Sun Tzu said, he will win who knows when to fight and when not to fight.

Killing "terrorists" is like engaging an enemy on the battlefield by shooting at the ammunition he is firing. The terrorists are the ammunition; Allah is the one firing at us. Since we can't kill Allah, it makes no sense to fight his followers.
Ass.

[Lord Dreadmore]

good post, disengagement or isolating muslims in their own lands is absolutely necessary. restricting, or in fact eliminating trade, and immigration from the sands of mohammad is essential. the borders must be secured, the immigration problem must be dealt with. our politicians are weak kneed fools who prattle on about meaningless and worthless issues and then when it comes to to vote they think they can just throw a bone to the base and all is forgiven. they are fools of the first order.

no one from a muslim country should be allowed to enter the US, the same policies should be encouraged of all western nations but with the likes of Europe, and Canada the task will take a major effort and everyone knows the politicians would rather drink tequila and hide under their sombreros.

They refuse to restrict immigration, they refuse to eliminate the dependency on oil and they lack the nerve to propagate alternative energy sources.

Our politicians are dhims that will hand our heads over to the chopping block of mohammad all for a vote next November.

vote early vote often

[OldSarge]

Killing "terrorists" is like engaging an enemy on the battlefield by shooting at the ammunition he is firing. The terrorists are the ammunition; Allah is the one firing at us. Since we can't kill Allah, it makes no sense to fight his followers.


Did you finish high school?

If you don't think we can "kill Allah", and you don't think it makes any sense to fight the terrorists, what the hell WOULD you do?

Lock down the borders against any and all Muslims......yeah, sure....

Just for the sake of debate, let's just say that such a ridiculously impractical fantasy would work.
Add to that your terrorist-enabling delusion about leaving them alone "in their own countries" to do what they want.

Now - and don't hurt yourself in the attempt - apply some logic.

By your "strategy", you would ALSO have to somehow herd each and every Muslim back INTO those countries from EVERY other nation on the planet.
...and what would you do if some of them actually had the insolence to LIE to you about whether or not they WERE Muslim?

But let's say you suddenly develop psychic abilities and get 'em all in place....

Once they were safely (somehow) locked inside those countries, would you then go around to every library, every private home, and burn every copy of the Qu'ran you found?

Would you purge the internet of each and every reference to Islam?

Would you make it impossible for people, mail, phone, television, and passenger pigeons to escape from those quarrantined countries to "hold in the contagion", or just impose some draconian form of censorship to keep "that stuff" from getting INTO America?

And what if some dick-head like chavez or castro or the Pyongyang Punk decided not to "play along" with your grand scheme?
Would you declare war on them or just try to quarrantine THEM, too?
What if china or russia thought your "Final Solution" was a tad too extreme and decided not to kiss your Imperial Ring?

What do you think the American people would think if china pulled a trade embargo on US?
(hint: where was your TV made?)

Do you actually believe for even one moment that the liberalite punks at the ACLU would let this grandiose scheme even get past the PLANNING stages?

...and here's the kicker:
You seem to think that we're wasting American military lives over there hunting down the terrorists, yet you would have those same people somehow making it impossible for people/tradegoods/ideas to get OUT of those countries.

Would they just stand there and politely say, "Sorry, you can't leave. You'll have to go back."????
...or is there just the slightest possibility that all those nasty Muslims might just take your good intentions the wrong way and start shooting - at those soldiers?

Would you nuke them THEN?
...or push the button before they had a chance to do something untidy?
....for that matter, given their largely oil-based economies and lack of agriculture, you could just sit back while they starved....

Spin it all you like, but yhe end result of your delusional scheme is: Genocide.

Coming up with solutions is a good thing - keep trying.
However, some tiny measure of PRACTICALITY would be a vast improvement.

[Droog]

You have to be one of the biggest *********s I've ever seen on this forum. Either you scoured over the essay and didn't read the whole thing, or you are simply retarded. You keep putting words into my mouth, when what I've wrote is crystal clear. First you accuse me of wanting to commit genocide on a scale comparable to Hitler and Stalin, then you accuse me of wanting to kill the belief system; now you're accusing me of wanting to herd all Muslims up and send them packing, neither three of which I made even the remotest suggestion to.

And I could care less what the ACLU thinks. They represent a fringe of American radical liberalism that most Americans find repulsive. When politicians figure out that cowtowing to Islamophiles will get them booted from office, things will be done and the ACLU can kick and scream all it wants. It's not a violation of civil liberties to secure our borders. And being selective about who travels here and who is allowed to stay here is not only has precedent in America but practically every country in the world.

Nor is it a violation of civil liberties to call Islam what it is: a 7th-century bedouin cult that by some catostrophic error of history has survived to the modern world, and, like Nazism and the Ku Klux Klan, both which pale in comparison to the horrors of Islam, is starkly in contrast to the values this country was founded on, meaningless little ideas like life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.

Ideas Islam grants only to those who submit. The Klan once held great influence in this country. Today they are a disorganized and disgraced group of rednecks. In America, Islam should be no different. The hate of its doctrine and the scale of the attrocities it is responsible for make the Klan look like the Mouseketeers. Not even Hitler or every communist psychopath combined can hold a candle to it.

So there are three choices for the endgame:

1> There is no endgame. We fight them for eternity. We can kill the "terrorists" a few dozen at a time out of a population of over 1.3 Billion - the fastest growing relgion in the world - until the end of the world. And God knows how many would die. But then again, we could never stop them from devoutly practicing their faith, which is of course why the "war" as it is currently being fought has no endgame.

2> We annihilate their entire civilization, front to back.

3> We find alternative sources to oil, making it a useless commodity to them, leaving them with no way to fund jihad. We end immigration from Muslim lands, and ban travel to and from them. We eliminate foreign Islamic influence in our mosques, universities, and jails. And the 99% of non-Muslims in America can let the 1% know that we value freedom of religion in this country, but that does not mean we respect their religion, nor do we have to tolerate it, especially when the core tenets of their faith are entirely contradictory to the very religious freedom we grant them.

I don't know about you, but I pick option 3. I don't want my kids growing up in this environment, and I want future generations of my family to grow up free of the fear of Islamic jihad and dhimmitude.

And if you think the whole idea is totally implausible, then you'd better hope you're wrong. Cuz current trends say we're all ****ed. It's only a matter of time. Watch what happens in Europe. And don't say I told you so.

[OldSarge]

You keep putting words into my mouth, when what I've wrote is crystal clear. First you accuse me of wanting to commit genocide on a scale comparable to Hitler and Stalin, then you accuse me of wanting to kill the belief system; now you're accusing me of wanting to herd all Muslims up and send them packing, neither three of which I made even the remotest suggestion to.


YOU wrote the following:

The Islamic world is pretty much the most worthless tracts of land in the world, save for one resource: oil. Restricted in free thought and innovation as they are by their religion, which recognizes no better or otherwise acceptable guidance than itself, it is little wonder why little of worth originates in their lands. Without oil the Islamic world would be mired in squalor and decadence. History bears this out. Before oil the Islamic state was sustained by jihad alone; its wealth and knowledge were stolen from the host civilizations: India, Byzantium, Europe. Without oil jihad will be Islam's only recourse to sustain itself, but without oil and with its dilapidated military, and, again, mentally confined by the oppresiveness of their religion, Islam will lack the capabilities to survive at all, much less pose a threat to the rest of the world by developing nuclear and long-range missile technology. Utilizing their oil wealth is the only means available to them to bridge the military gap between the Islamic world and the Western powers.


Sounds a lot like you're proposing a slow starvation death to the religion of Islam, are you not?
It also looks a lot like genocide..........Darfur, anyone?

And being selective about who travels here and who is allowed to stay here is not only has precedent in America but practically every country in the world.


THAT leaves only one solution for any Muslim already here: DEPORTATION.

Ideas Islam grants only to those who submit. The Klan once held great influence in this country. Today they are a disorganized and disgraced group of rednecks. In America, Islam should be no different. The hate of its doctrine and the scale of the attrocities it is responsible for make the Klan look like the Mouseketeers. Not even Hitler or every communist psychopath combined can hold a candle to it.


So you would treat the Muslims as they would treat dhimmis....
What happened to those "meaningless little ideas like life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness"?
Would you only apply them selectively?

3> We find alternative sources to oil, making it a useless commodity to them, leaving them with no way to fund jihad....


Another false premise.
The majority of the terrorists' funding comes from crime like identity theft and credit card fraud, along with zakat - their tithing system - and is funnelled through "charities" to the terrorists.

We end immigration from Muslim lands, and ban travel to and from them.


There's that genocidal quarrantine proposal again.

We eliminate foreign Islamic influence in our mosques, universities, and jails. And the 99% of non-Muslims in America can let the 1% know that we value freedom of religion in this country, but that does not mean we respect their religion, nor do we have to tolerate it, especially when the core tenets of their faith are entirely contradictory to the very religious freedom we grant them.


...and there's your unConstitutional censorship proposal, and you'd toss out that nasty "Free Exercise" clause in the First Amendment while you're at it, too....

I don't know about you, but I pick option 3. I don't want my kids growing up in this environment, and I want future generations of my family to grow up free of the fear of Islamic jihad and dhimmitude.


There's the REAL point of your whole diatribe - you'd rather make THEM dhimmi than find a better solution.....

And don't say I told you so.

You need have no worries about THAT! ROFLMAO

Your mind is even narrower and more closed than the Muslims you despise.

And you STILL haven't even ATTEMPTED to address minor little complicating factors like Russia (which has a historic trading interest BESIDES oil with Muslim countries), China (which is no friend of ours), the Pyongyang Punk (who helped Iran get nuke technology for his own reasons), Chavez (another oil-producer and lunatic, despite the fact that he's NOT Muslim).......

You have to be one of the biggest *********s I've ever seen on this forum. Either you scoured over the essay and didn't read the whole thing, or you are simply retarded.


Coming from a creature such as yourself, I'll take that as a compliment. I've refuted your premise - since you have demonstrated conclusively that you do NOT "know your enemy" - as well as your "supporting" rhetoric, almost point for point, using logic and real world experience....concepts which are obviously foreign to you.

All you've got is your hatred and blind ideology, which cause you to ignore inconvenient facts about your enemy, therefore making it impossible for you to have any realistic grasp of his intentions.
I see little difference between the jihadis and you except on one point:
THEY understand US.

[Droog]

Nothing I have left to say will make you look any dumber than your own posts. So by all means, continue.

[Droog]

http://hannity.com/forum/showthread.php?t=87117

You can't blame Clinton for that.

[Lord Dreadmore]

old Sarg is more like old stooge

[Droog]

old Sarg is more like old stooge It's the usual boring, hysterical reaction I get from people who have never bothered to study Islamic scripture yet feel qualified to call me a genocidal bigot for criticizing Islam, naming it as the threat that it is, and offering solutions to reduce its ability to harm Americans.

He thinks we're fighting terrorists, and that mentality is why we're losing.

That's why Europe is gone. They separate "terrorism" from Islam. Calling it terrorism is the first mistake - it's jihad. Diagnosing the problem - whatever name you give it - as something outside of or radical to the Islamic faith is the second mistake. Muslims don't want our freedoms. They want to go to heaven.

[Lord Dreadmore]

It's the usual boring, hysterical reaction I get from people who have never bothered to study Islamic scripture yet feel qualified to call me a genocidal bigot for criticizing Islam, naming it as the threat that it is, and offering solutions to reduce its ability to harm Americans.

He thinks we're fighting terrorists, and that mentality is why we're losing.

That's why Europe is gone. They separate "terrorism" from Islam. Calling it terrorism is the first mistake - it's jihad. Diagnosing the problem - whatever name you give it - as something outside of or radical to the Islamic faith is the second mistake. Muslims don't want our freedoms. They want to go to heaven.

I know, I'm sick of the hysterical reprobates that think they know whats going on all the while hey make excuses for the very people that want to chop off their head. they are sickening and tiresome

[Droog]

And they think it's the people blowing themselves up or otherwise plotting to murder people that's the real problem.

So clueless, such a shame.

[OldSarge]

And precisely how much time have you two spent outside your ideologies?

How much sand have you dumped out of your boots?

How many actual - American or otherwise - Muslims have you ever met?

Do you speak Arabic?

By all means, kids, continue your mutual admiration society meeting, keep drinkin' up your kool-aid and blinding yourselves to the complications you don't WANT to see clearly.

I'll just stick with the inconvenient realities and untidy facts - which your ideology won't allow you to see.

And I will continue to defend your Constitutional right to make fools of yourselves.

Have a nice hate-fest.......ROFLMAO

[Droog]

You sure do ASSume alot, OldStooge. You don't even know our ideology and yet you ASSume it must be what's leading us to hate.

It couldn't be that I own most of the Islamic scripture that's available in the English language, and have been studying it, along with Islam's history, extensively, for over 2 and a half years now. Incidentally, how much of Islamic scripture have you actually read?

[OldSarge]

You sure do ASSume alot, OldStooge. You don't even know our ideology and yet you ASSume it must be what's leading us to hate.


If you can't see that your ideology IS hate, then you're further gone than I thought.

It couldn't be that I own most of the Islamic scripture that's available in the English language, and have been studying it, along with Islam's history, extensively, for over 2 and a half years now.


Three cheers and a tiger for you, sunshine, you can read English.
Congratulations on having mastered the fine art of the pseudo-intellectual.
BTW, whose translation do you use?

Incidentally, how much of Islamic scripture have you actually read?

Only the Qur'an.......I needed to brush up my Arabic, so I read it in Arabic. I make it a point to learn as much of the language of my enemy as I can.

Which is also why I read Tolstoy's "War and Peace" in Russian, and "El Cid" in Spanish.......at least El Cid was entertaining....W&P was boring as hell - who gives a rat-fart about Russian nobility in Napoleon's time?

I've also read von Clausewitz, Musashi, Yamamoto (Tsunetomo), and Sun Tzu - although I used translations for those since I don't do Polish, and my Japanese and Chinese (Mandarin) are verbal only...can't read those two.

So...you've got some book-smarts....but you say nothing about ever having spent any time overseas, much less actually meeting any Muslims.

Here's a clue for ya, sparky:
Without putting it to actual use, reading a Field Manual doesn't make you a soldier, either....

[Droog]

A field manual is one book. I own dozens.

http://geocities.com/ibniblis/bibliography.html

It is not necessary to travel to Muslim lands nor to speak with Muslims. Any Muslim by nature would be an apologist. I've spoken with many Muslims on various sites and all of them are either A> liars, B> entirely ignorant of the core tenets of their faith, central among these is jihad, or C> practicing the Muslim art of dissimulation - taqiyya, or "concealing" the truth of their intentions. Just about anyone who is a member of CAIR, particularly their leadership, is a perfect example. Practically all "mainstream, moderate" Muslim groups in the West are involved in jihad. Yet we suffer them and even encourage them - Bush invites them to the White House - out of fear that ignorant people such as yourself will lable us bigots and compare us to Hitler.

[OldSarge]

When it comes to anyone taking you for a real Hitler or Stalin, you really don't need to sweat it too much....

You possess neither the cunning nor the intellect to be any real threat.

Nighty-nite......pleasant dreams...........

[poorblackman]

Excellent post Droog.

You are correct in your analysis. Most Americans don't have a clue or don't care. That was quite evident from the Fox Dynamics Poll last Thursday. Only12 percent of those polled thought terrorism was the top issue, with the economy getting top bill. Even though it was 3rd on the list, that still means 88 percent did not feel this was an important enough issue.

Even if you can only convince one more person, you are heading in the right direction. :)

In reality, 90% of Americans have no risk nor fear of being attacked by a terrorist. We have much better chance of being killed by a drunk driver or a spouse. Even medical errors kill tens of thousands of people. While Terrorism is dramatic and scary, there are far more pressing dangers to the average American.

I survived the WTC attack and being attacked by terrorist now is the least of my concerns. I still work in NYC every day and I'm often there on weekends so even though I'm going to a "high value target area" , my thoughts are rarely on terrorist. Perhaps we should be concerned but the solution to the terrorist problem is very simple. Keep track of the borders.

[Lord Dreadmore]

Thus we may know that there are five essentials for victory:
He will win who knows when to fight and when not to fight.
He will win who knows how to handle both superior and inferior forces.
He will win whose army is animated by the same spirit throughout all ranks.
He will win who, prepared himself, waits to take the enemy unprepared.
He will win who has military capacity and is not interfered with by the sovereign.

Victory lies in the knowledge of those five points. Hence the saying: If you know the enemy and know yourself, you need not fear the result of a hundred battles.
~Sun Tzu

Knowing the Enemy

America's current foreign policy malaise is the result of our unwillingness or inability to properly diagnose the roots of the current conflict. A doctor cannot treat a disease until he diagnoses it; similarly, we cannot combat our enemy until we define and understand him. Unfortunately, our enemy is a religios ideology that produces an endless number of soldiers who are either eager to die so that we in turn will die, or otherwise live in fear; or who are attempting to overwhelm our cultures demographically. The latter pose a far greater threat to our civilization than the former. Unfortunately however, currently, the former attract the most attention.

The first and foremost issue facing America is, how do the terrorists get here in the first place? Currently, no Islamic state possesses the technology to strike America by military means. Nor does any independent jihadist entity, such as al Qaeda or Hezbollah. They have no navy, no air force, and, currently, they lack the missile technology to strike us.

September 11, 2001 is the root cause of America's involvement in the "GWOT". One of the most common questions asked in its aftermath was, "Could we have prevented this attack?" The answer is most definitely "yes". It had nothing to do with "connecting the dots" or sharing intelligence between the CIA, FBI, and local law enforcement. Not one of the 9-11 hijackers had any business being in America. How did they get here?

Again, this is the result of our inability to diagnose the problem. Currently we do not recognize Islam as the root cause of "terrorism", so we lack the foresight to see that allowing foreign Muslims to roam free in our country is inherently dangerous. If we had recognized this threat prior to 9-11, and had the moral courage to resist political correctness and act on it, September 11 would've been a completely meaningless day in this country's history.

Removing the tragedy of that day, it's obvious that we would not be in Afghanistan right now. Nor would we be in Iraq. Even if we erred in allowing 9-11 to happen, we wouldn't have to worry about Saddam's WMD or terrorist connections if we would have learned our lesson that day, because he and his cohorts in al Qaeda would have no way of getting them into the country. But in the name of cheap labor we allow our borders to be unprotected, and thus we are perpetually and unnecessarily at risk.

Many worry about the costs of fully securing our ports, both air and sea. Considering the alternative - endless billions being wasted in Afghanistan and Iraq - the cost of implementing proper security measures would be of little concern. Nor would the ability to police our borders, as tens of thousands of our soldiers would be in America where they could properly and effectively guard the homeland.

By simply addressing the security of our borders, the mantra "fighting them over there so we don't have to fight them here" becomes devoid of any logic or meaning. This however is only a short-term solution to a long-term problem.

The mantra of our current foreign policy also becomes meaningless in the face of home-grown jihad infesting many European nations and even America. Fighting terrorists abroad means nothing if they're being created within our own borders. How do we begin to address this problem?

To begin with, as an extension of border security, immigration and travel to and from Islamic lands should be banned, or otherwise severely restricted. The true intentions of Muslim foreigners entering the country can never truly be determined, until and if they act or conspire to murder Americans. How many times have we heard a jihadist's family and community express shock that he had attacked, or was caught conspiring to attack, America? Or Britain? One of the London tube bombers was a school teacher. Even if the Muslim traveler is not a threat, there is no guarantee that, like this school teacher, should be be allowed to stay, he or his naturalized offspring will not discover the roots and true meaning of their faith, which is jihad.

By pure demographics alone, much of Europe will develope Muslim majorities within many of our own lifetimes; certainly within the lifetimes of generations in the near future. This cannot be allowed to happen in America. The conditions of non-Muslims living under the heel of Islamic states has never been acceptable in all of Islam's history. Never. Even in what is considered Islam's most tolerant and enlightened era (http://www.geocities.com/ibniblis/andalusia.html), non-Muslims were treated harshly. The laws that governed these states - the Shari'a - are not a relic of a dark period of Islam's distant past: 81% of Muslims in Detroit (http://www.jihadwatch.org/dhimmiwatch/archives/001493.php) somewhat or strongly (59% "strongly") agreed that shari'a should be the law of the land. Christian populations are persecuted in Egypt (http://www.cswusa.com/Countries/Egypt.htm) and the Palestinian territories (http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=20583); Buddhists and Christians are under attack in Thailand (http://www.thestandard.com.hk/news_detail.asp?pp_cat=17&art_id=2006&sid=4713223&con_type=1). The murder (http://www.militantislammonitor.org/article/id/320) of Theo Van Gogh (carried out in the tradition of the prophet (http://www.faithfreedom.org/oped/IbnIblis60218.htm)), the cultural festering in Sweden (http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,139614,00.html), the home-grown jihad (http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=18698) in Britain, the riots (http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=20071) in France: these are all but a taste of what's to come in America if we continue to turn a blind eye to jihad.

Not only must we restrict the flow of Muslim immigrants into our country, but we must completely eliminate the influence of foreign Muslim entities in American Muslim life. Eighty percent (http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1132475689987&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull) of US mosques "have been radicalized by Saudi Money and influence". This is done by offering to build mosques more splendid than Islamic communities could afford to build, with the condition that the congregation be led by a Saudi-approved imam. Is it a coincidence that the same percentage of Muslims in America's most populous Muslim community advocate a grotesque and offensive legal code such as the Shari'a? The Fiqh Council of North America (http://www.ajc.org/site/apps/nl/content3.asp?c=ijITI2PHKoG&b=846739&ct=1256033), the Muslim organization that produced the ridiculous fatwah (http://www.washingtontimes.com/op-ed/20050807-092808-8354r_page2.htm) condemning "terrorism", is linked to Saudi Arabia, Pakistani extremists and the Muslim Brotherhood. The Council on American-Islamic Relations (CAIR) was founded and is funded (http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=18919) by terrorists organizations. Omar Ahmad (http://www.cair-net.org/default.asp?Page=Board&person=Omar) and Nihad Awad (http://www.pluralism.org/events/interfaculty2003/guest_bios/awad.php), CAIR's founders, are former officials of the Islamic Association of Palestine (IAP), and IAP’s president, Rafeeq Jabar, is one of CAIR's founding directors. Former FBI counterterrorism chief Oliver "Buck" Revell has described (http://worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=43805) the IAP as a "a front organization for Hamas," and this accusation was affirmed when a federal judge in Chicago found the IAP guilty (http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2004-12-09-slaying-suit_x.htm) of aiding and abetting Hamas in the murder of David Boim, a 17-year-old American citizen. Further, it was discovered that CAIR exploited the 9/11 attacks (http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=13175) to raise funds for two Hamas-linked fundraising organizations, the Holy Land Foundation (http://www.treas.gov/press/releases/po3340.htm) and the Global Relief Foundation (http://www.treas.gov/offices/enforcement/key-issues/protecting/charities_execorder_13224-e.shtml).

Continued...

fwrd to everyone on your list bump!

[OldSarge]

Just make sure you read the WHOLE thread, first.

[Droog]

Yes, everyone needs to see you make an ass out of yourself and take the entire essay out of context about a half a dozen times.

That way they know not to take you seriously in the future.

[Sneaky SF Dude]

The likelihood of an Islamic state acquiring the military might necessary to strike directly at the American heartland is slim to none, with one exception: nuclear weapons and intercontinental ballistic missiles (ICBMs).This was as far as I read. This statement is false and flies in the face of fact - it has already happened.

[CHUG]

I just don't think your proposal goes nearly far enough. For one thing, even if we sealed the borders against islam tommarow, there are muslims living in our country. Going to mosque to learn Jihad. Then they could very easily go to work on Monday in any police dept., fire dept., airport, port, etc. in this nation. There's literally nothing to stop them from legally being hired to work sensitive jobs in our infrastructure.

I propose that we add the proviso that Muslims be required to have their photo-Ids clearly labelled Muslim and that they be barred from working anywhere with access to our infrastructure.

Failing that, maybe we could send them to camp -- in Montana. Some place where they wouldn't be around Americans and would be surrounded by barbed wire.

I truly hope you're being sarcastic.

[soupdragon]

What good is it to seal the border against NEW muslims when muslims already live here? I mean if new muslims are a threat, surely you can't let the old ones walk around just anywhere they want.

And that's the proposal, just keep them away from things that would make inviting targets. And there is plenty of land in Monatna.

You are a complete tit. Not all muslims are bad. What are you saying? Get rid of the Muslims living in the US? "Old ones" jumping Joseph and Mary, you are certifiable insane.

[sgtmac_46]

The REAL root of the problem isn't terrorism, or nuclear armed Iran, of any of that....those are symptoms. The REAL root of the problem is that Western Civilization as we know it is in it's decline. Nature abhors a vacuum....and the vacuum in this case is an entire civilization devoid of a reason for being outside of narcissistic self-gratification.

Why Islam is at war with the west, the root of it, is that Islam and adherents desire....the desire to grow and spread and expand, they desire to fill the world with their true belief.

Western Civilization, on the other hand, is at the stage where most of it's leading minds are thinking deep and cynical thoughts about what belief even means, and if there's even any reason for being in the first place. We want to live, but only to fulfill our own desires. The idea of a life spent truly in the service of something higher is considered unenlightened.

I'm agnostic myself....but it's clear that the root of the problem firmly lays in the death of belief. Belief in a higher power motivates believers to sacrifice. An entire society of cynical unbelievers is one prone to destruction.

Moreover, the secular humanistic vague worldview we've replaced belief with has as among it's main tenants tolerance of diversity....tolerance without discrimination. Anything alien, this new worldview says, is to be embraced as good, regardless, simply out of the notion that tolerance is a good in itself.

This tolerance creates a perfect vacuum by which the alien forces arrayed against us find their best path to our destruction....internally. This isn't an invasion that will be done in days, or months or even a couple of years.....but, instead, decades. Xenophobia is a cultures immune defense against foreign invasion....but this new secular humanist ideology destroys that immune system. Yes, Xenophobia can go haywire, much like an allergic reaction, but destroying that immune system results in a situation much worse.

I have no doubt that the 21st Century will be the Century of Islams ascendancy.

[Sneaky SF Dude]

That is entirely too deep for this board. Please return to "Bush sucks!" immediately.









Excellent post.

[rhet 2]

The REAL root of the problem isn't terrorism, or nuclear armed Iran, of any of that....those are symptoms. The REAL root of the problem is that Western Civilization as we know it is in it's decline. Nature abhors a vacuum....and the vacuum in this case is an entire civilization devoid of a reason for being outside of narcissistic self-gratification.

Why Islam is at war with the west, the root of it, is that Islam and adherents desire....the desire to grow and spread and expand, they desire to fill the world with their true belief.

Western Civilization, on the other hand, is at the stage where most of it's leading minds are thinking deep and cynical thoughts about what belief even means, and if there's even any reason for being in the first place. We want to live, but only to fulfill our own desires. The idea of a life spent truly in the service of something hire is considered unenlightened.

I'm agnostic myself....but it's clear that the root of the problem firmly lays in the death of belief. Belief in a hire power motivates believers to sacrifice. An entire society of cynical unbelievers is one prone to destruction.

Moreover, the secular humanistic vague worldview we've replaced belief with has as among it's main tenants tolerance of diversity....tolerance without discrimination. Anything alien, this new worldview says, is to be embraced as good, regardless, simply out of the notion that tolerance is a good in itself.

This tolerance creates a perfect vacuum by which the alien forces arrayed against us find their best path to our destruction....internally. This isn't an invasion that will be done in days, or months or even a couple of years.....but, instead, decades. Xenophobia is a cultures immune defense against foreign invasion....but this new secular humanist ideology destroys that immune system. Yes, Xenophobia can go haywire, much like an allergic reaction, but destroying that immune system results in a situation much worse.

I have no doubt that the 21st Century will be the Century of Islams ascendancy.

I would agree except for one thing: you assume that the Hippie culture of self-hatred and endless self-deception on the Left is the majority culture, the dominant culture of the West.

I think you're wrong in that assumption.

While the Left has usurped the authority of the courts, of the schools, and of Congress, you overlook the true and abiding hatred of those fanatics among the majority of the American people.

The Silent Majority has NOT accepted Hippie ******** ---- yet.

And the potential for that Majority to get the guts required to Stand and Defend against the Hippie suppression and oppression grows daily.

For example, this BailOut of Fat Cat Democrats may be the East India Tea Company bailout that finally surges us into ACTION -- all we need is a Washington and a Jefferson and a Natan Hale and a Patrick Henry to focus the growing rage against the immoral and corrupt Left.

Our culture is not so dead as Huntingdon assumes -- we're actually the YOUNGEST culture on earth, vital and far more enduring than the Left comprehends.

The OLD WORLD Left has NOT succeeded in its attempts to destroy the Narrative of Freedom -- not yet -- and they have exerted exactly the real life forces required to activate those Narratives, turning the ideals they despise into hard core reaction to their abuse and attempted suppression/marginalization of the culture they want destroyed.

Lyotard and Searle, not Barth and sure as hell not Huntingdon, is much closer to reality.

It is the Hippie Narrative which cannot survive real world conditions because, instead of adapting the narrative to fit reality, the Left tries to force reality to fit the Narrative -- and no mythology survives contact with real world exigencies.

The Liberals have themselves caused the conditions which must, inevitably, destroy the Liberal Narrative.

[rhet 2]

I would counter that the Right's ideology does not allow for any deviation from a specific set of rules. The Left is more adaptive to new situations and concepts.

I would also disagree that majority Islam wants to do anything other than be left to itself. There are fanatics in every religion, and theirs are obviously more dangerous than ours; but you're not going to win hearts and minds by painting everyone who practices Islam a fanatic...

Tolerance is an invitation to exchange ideas, and work to better our understanding.... not a vaccuum, not a weakness.... it takes true strength to allow challenges to our own ideology without throwing a coniption fit....

As for Islam's ascendency, it's been growing for centuries; without force of arms...

The Left is NOT more adaptive -- they're MUSHY and slippery as hell, so that even the Left cannot know and predict and control their own responses to a damned thing.

They build entire condominum complexes on constantly shifting quicksand -- and nobody knows what the hell a Liberal will say, think, or do -- except regurgitate the Hippie Mantra and foam at the mouth upon hearing key emotional word cues, like "profit" and "oil" and "environment" -- then and only then, when somebody pushes the magic word button, are you going to get a predictable response -- predictably destructive, oppressive, suppressive, and violently opposed to TOLERANCE of anything that dares resist belief in the Hippie Dogma of Emotive Hyper-Reactivity.

[Sneaky SF Dude]

I would counter that the Right's ideology does not allow for any deviation from a specific set of rules. The Left is more adaptive to new situations and concepts.

I would also disagree that majority Islam wants to do anything other than be left to itself. There are fanatics in every religion, and theirs are obviously more dangerous than ours; but you're not going to win hearts and minds by painting everyone who practices Islam a fanatic...

Tolerance is an invitation to exchange ideas, and work to better our understanding.... not a vaccuum, not a weakness.... it takes true strength to allow challenges to our own ideology without throwing a coniption fit....

As for Islam's ascendency, it's been growing for centuries; without force of arms...

Horse hockey

[meggers49]

The REAL root of the problem isn't terrorism, or nuclear armed Iran, of any of that....those are symptoms. The REAL root of the problem is that Western Civilization as we know it is in it's decline. Nature abhors a vacuum....and the vacuum in this case is an entire civilization devoid of a reason for being outside of narcissistic self-gratification.

Why Islam is at war with the west, the root of it, is that Islam and adherents desire....the desire to grow and spread and expand, they desire to fill the world with their true belief.

Western Civilization, on the other hand, is at the stage where most of it's leading minds are thinking deep and cynical thoughts about what belief even means, and if there's even any reason for being in the first place. We want to live, but only to fulfill our own desires. The idea of a life spent truly in the service of something hire is considered unenlightened.

I'm agnostic myself....but it's clear that the root of the problem firmly lays in the death of belief. Belief in a hire power motivates believers to sacrifice. An entire society of cynical unbelievers is one prone to destruction.

Moreover, the secular humanistic vague worldview we've replaced belief with has as among it's main tenants tolerance of diversity....tolerance without discrimination. Anything alien, this new worldview says, is to be embraced as good, regardless, simply out of the notion that tolerance is a good in itself.

This tolerance creates a perfect vacuum by which the alien forces arrayed against us find their best path to our destruction....internally. This isn't an invasion that will be done in days, or months or even a couple of years.....but, instead, decades. Xenophobia is a cultures immune defense against foreign invasion....but this new secular humanist ideology destroys that immune system. Yes, Xenophobia can go haywire, much like an allergic reaction, but destroying that immune system results in a situation much worse.

I have no doubt that the 21st Century will be the Century of Islams ascendancy.

Nature does indeed abhor a vacuum. With no moral absolutes left no one has a yardstick to measure what evil is. Even if we espoused secular humanism entirely, with its lack of structure, a firm belief in our homeland, a passion and a patriotism for our country, the UNITED STATES OF AMERICA and not a desire to be part of a global community, would preempt much of this. We would see what was dangerous for us as a nation and prevent or interdict it.

The fifth tenet of Sun Tzu's rules of war (as it were) was

He will win who has military capacity and is not interfered with by the sovereign

In our case, it is not only the interference of our government with the running of the war, but also the people, as they are part and parcel of the sovereignty. War and the protection of our land cannot be done by popular appeal. What must be done, must be done.


Our open door philosophy has caused us much good as well as much harm. While closing the door would keep MORE who detest us from coming in, it does nothing about those that are already here. And this brings us full circle to the moral relativism of secular humanism. Our inability to call evil what it is precludes us from protecting ourselves. We have not the spine to be what we need to be for us and not be all things for all people, and ending up being nothing to no one.

Even if we do not return to the level of religiosity (is there such a word?) we should return to a high level of nationalism which would bolster our resolve and make the enemy defined. The nebulousness of globalism is, along with our moral decay, killing us.

[Cav Scout]

I would agree except for one thing: you assume that the Hippie culture of self-hatred and endless self-deception on the Left is the majority culture, the dominant culture of the West.

I think you're wrong in that assumption.

While the Left has usurped the authority of the courts, of the schools, and of Congress, you overlook the true and abiding hatred of those fanatics among the majority of the American people.

The Silent Majority has NOT accepted Hippie ******** ---- yet.

And the potential for that Majority to get the guts required to Stand and Defend against the Hippie suppression and oppression grows daily.

For example, this BailOut of Fat Cat Democrats may be the East India Tea Company bailout that finally surges us into ACTION -- all we need is a Washington and a Jefferson and a Natan Hale and a Patrick Henry to focus the growing rage against the immoral and corrupt Left.

Our culture is not so dead as Huntingdon assumes -- we're actually the YOUNGEST culture on earth, vital and far more enduring than the Left comprehends.

The OLD WORLD Left has NOT succeeded in its attempts to destroy the Narrative of Freedom -- not yet -- and they have exerted exactly the real life forces required to activate those Narratives, turning the ideals they despise into hard core reaction to their abuse and attempted suppression/marginalization of the culture they want destroyed.

Lyotard and Searle, not Barth and sure as hell not Huntingdon, is much closer to reality.

It is the Hippie Narrative which cannot survive real world conditions because, instead of adapting the narrative to fit reality, the Left tries to force reality to fit the Narrative -- and no mythology survives contact with real world exigencies.

The Liberals have themselves caused the conditions which must, inevitably, destroy the Liberal Narrative.

There is a cure.
Unfortunantly it is very "Uncivil". However the inconvience and incivil nature of it is fast aproaching them. In all the reading that I have done on modern Europe, it is very evident. Europe will not awaken to their narrative in time to change it, and they will suffer that fate. However, the Americas can be much more savage when times demand it. The Modern Liberal narrative will not be our end, maybe our rebirth...but not our end.
As Mac stated, a moral belief system demands action at some point, the question then is this, how far does the moral belief system allow itself to be pushed before it acts. There are too many of us that do not live in the lap of selfish pity to be lured to demise by it. Even now you see sparks of morality starting glow brighter as some are realizing that enough is enough. It will continue down hill until Europe fails and then more here awaken to whats afoot and then...the silent shall become very loud.
Time will tell.

[Cav Scout]

I would counter that the Right's ideology does not allow for any deviation from a specific set of rules. The Left is more adaptive to new situations and concepts.

I would also disagree that majority Islam wants to do anything other than be left to itself. There are fanatics in every religion, and theirs are obviously more dangerous than ours; but you're not going to win hearts and minds by painting everyone who practices Islam a fanatic...

Tolerance is an invitation to exchange ideas, and work to better our understanding.... not a vaccuum, not a weakness.... it takes true strength to allow challenges to our own ideology without throwing a coniption fit....

As for Islam's ascendency, it's been growing for centuries; without force of arms...

There is a HUGE difference between adapting to a situation that cannot be changed through effort and CAPITULATING cause its easy and APEARS to be in paralel to the belief of liberty. Just as its a simple fact that the left is far more intolerant then it is tolerant.
All one needs to do to see that is listen to the loud mouth pigs on the View...there is a model of the lefts "tolerance".

[meggers49]

I would counter that the Right's ideology does not allow for any deviation from a specific set of rules. The Left is more adaptive to new situations and concepts.

I would also disagree that majority Islam wants to do anything other than be left to itself. There are fanatics in every religion, and theirs are obviously more dangerous than ours; but you're not going to win hearts and minds by painting everyone who practices Islam a fanatic...

Tolerance is an invitation to exchange ideas, and work to better our understanding.... not a vaccuum, not a weakness.... it takes true strength to allow challenges to our own ideology without throwing a coniption fit....

As for Islam's ascendency, it's been growing for centuries; without force of arms...

I completely disagree. The left is not adaptive. It's fickle. It bends to whatever way the latest trend is. That is not a safe or resilient method of operation.

The far left and the far right are both so radical that neither can be counted on for stability.

The right, however, looks at the tried and true values and methods and uses them. They look at what has failed and what has worked and uses that which works. They have a courage of conviction that does not waver with the whim of the moment. Adapting isn't necessarily what is needed for survival or growth. Change for change's sake does not necessarily yield improvement. When change is in order, it's not to be done willynilly, listening to the loudest shrieker, appeasing the rowdy masses.

If we look at what happened with Rome, the Republic decayed into the Democracy with the government becoming fat, greedy and corrupt. They gave more and more to their people, hoping to gain their favor. That caused the people to be fat, lazy and soft, demanding more and more from a government not able to fulfill the wants of their citizens. They placated their citizens with 'bread and circuses', keeping them fat and entertained, but expecting little from them. In the long run, those people cared nothing for their government or their country, just their things.

This yielded a citizenry that was not dedicated or loyal to their homeland and left them open to a people who had the internal fortitude and drive to conquer.

We are seeing this here. Our left, and honestly, much of the right, as they have lost their moral compass, are willing to give anything to anyone at any cost in order to keep their place in the government.

It is not true that Islam is content to be left to themselves. It is in their theology (though not all agree with it) to overtake. They continue to believe that all lands once controlled by Islam is still theirs, they do not ascribe to the victor goes the spoils, at least not when the victor isn't them. Tolerance may lead to an exchange of ideas, but only if it is practiced on both sides. If one side is tolerant of another and the other has designs on the tolerant one, it opens the tolerant to mayhem of many sorts. Leaving one's underbelly exposed isn't tolerant, it's foolish.

We have become fools in the name of tolerance, in the name of globalism. It is no wonder we are on the precipice.

[rhet 2]

I completely disagree. The left is not adaptive. It's fickle. It bends to whatever way the latest trend is. That is not a safe or resilient method of operation.

The far left and the far right are both so radical that neither can be counted on for stability.

The right, however, looks at the tried and true values and methods and uses them. They look at what has failed and what has worked and uses that which works. They have a courage of conviction that does not waver with the whim of the moment. Adapting isn't necessarily what is needed for survival or growth. Change for change's sake does not necessarily yield improvement. When change is in order, it's not to be done willynilly, listening to the loudest shrieker, appeasing the rowdy masses.

If we look at what happened with Rome, the Republic decayed into the Democracy with the government becoming fat, greedy and corrupt. They gave more and more to their people, hoping to gain their favor. That caused the people to be fat, lazy and soft, demanding more and more from a government not able to fulfill the wants of their citizens. They placated their citizens with 'bread and circuses', keeping them fat and entertained, but expecting little from them. In the long run, those people cared nothing for their government or their country, just their things.

This yielded a citizenry that was not dedicated or loyal to their homeland and left them open to a people who had the internal fortitude and drive to conquer.

We are seeing this here. Our left, and honestly, much of the right, as they have lost their moral compass, are willing to give anything to anyone at any cost in order to keep their place in the government.

It is not true that Islam is content to be left to themselves. It is in their theology (though not all agree with it) to overtake. They continue to believe that all lands once controlled by Islam is still theirs, they do not ascribe to the victor goes the spoils, at least not when the victor isn't them. Tolerance may lead to an exchange of ideas, but only if it is practiced on both sides. If one side is tolerant of another and the other has designs on the tolerant one, it opens the tolerant to mayhem of many sorts. Leaving one's underbelly exposed isn't tolerant, it's foolish.

We have become fools in the name of tolerance, in the name of globalism. It is no wonder we are on the precipice.

Amazing what happens to all the high flown rhetoric about "globalism" and "tolerance" and "admiration for other cultures" when it's your own kids dying.

[The Bos'un]

Amazing what happens to all the high flown rhetoric about "globalism" and "tolerance" and "admiration for other cultures" when it's your own kids dying.
Hey Rhet, where will I pay jizya tax?

Are they going to do it as witholdings or will we have to pay it separately?

[rhet 2]

Hey Rhet, where will I pay jizya tax?

Are they going to do it as witholdings or will we have to pay it separately?

Pay it separately -- in blood.

I do not submit to tyranny, legal or not.

Death is better than slavery to any man or any group.

[The Bos'un]

Pay it separately -- in blood.

I do not submit to tyranny, legal or not.

Death is better than slavery to any man or any group.
Rhet, unfortunately the American sheeple seem unwilling to diagnose the problem and offer a cure. Droog, KAOSKTRL, Lord Dreadmore, et al, provided a very good discussion topic in this round table.

Overlooking the latest comments of this round table discussion, the ones most recent, (This round table was conducted 2 years ago), some are avoiding the real topic, know your enemy.

I know that you recognize the enemy and continue to hit hard, but, some appear to be apologist, appeasers, and the such without a clue what we are going to face.

We are on the edge of a cliff in a very precarious position. But, somehow I do not believe that the American sheeple are ready for the pound of cure.

My asking where and how to pay Jizya was a tongue in cheek response to this situation that we are faced with.

For radical Islamists, there exist two kinds of non-Muslim enemies... Non-believers of Islam (كافر kāfir) and "People of the Book" (أهل الكتاب, Ahl al- Kitâb), . Kafir must either convert to Islam or face execution. People of the Book include Jews and Christians will need only submit to Muslim authority to avoid forced conversion or death.

Although people of the book are supposed to be able to keep their original faith, their status becomes Dhimmi (a "protected," yet inferior non-Muslim status), they will have to agree to rules and regulations such as the Pact of Umar (http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/jewish/jews-umar.html).

Instead of outright forced conversion or slaughter, the Christians and Jews are supposed to be allowed to remain somewhat unmolested as long as they acknowledged the superiority of the Muslim.

However, as untold thousands of dead Lebanese Christians and Israel's beleaguered Jewish population have discovered over the years, these guarantees may be worthless!

We need to get back on track with the topic of Droog's roundtable discussion..

[The Bos'un]

In regards to Droog's thread, The Art of War:

We need to get back on track with the topic of Droog's round table discussion. I just commented to Rhet that for radical Islamists, there exist two kinds of non-Muslim enemies... Non-believers of Islam (كافر kāfir) and "People of the Book" (أهل الكتاب, Ahl al- Kitâb). Kafir people must either convert to Islam or face execution. People of the Book, include Jews and Christians, are supposed to submit to Muslim authority (and pay Jizya) to avoid forced conversion or death.

Perhaps one should become with just what status of Dhimmi (a "protected," yet inferior non-Muslim status) means. One may decide to research or goggle information regarding the rules and regulations that were placed on Dhimmi by traditional fundamentalist Islamists such as what was found in the Pact of Umar (http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/jewish/jews-umar.html).

Would you like to live under the Pact of Umar or similar regulations? Remember Pacts are not steadfast agreements, but, temporary agreements that can be changed at any time for any reason by those with the power.

[The Bos'un]

Although Muslims believe that Jesus was a prophet, they reject the Christian doctrine of the Trinity, comparing it to polytheism. In Islamic theology, Jesus was just a man and not the son of God; [David Thomas "Tathlith, Trinity". Encyclopaedia of the Qur'an Online. : Contrary to Muslim understanding, some scholars have suggested that the Qur'an only opposes certain deviant forms of Trinitarian belief.] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam#cite_note-23)

God is described in a sur'ah 112 of the Qur'an as "…God, the One and Only; God, the Eternal, Absolute; He begetteth not, nor is He begotten; And there is none like unto Him. Sur' ah 112 (http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/112.qmt.html#112.001) (source Wikipedia)

According to Islamic lore, Jesus is supposed to bear witness to Islam himself during the last days.

[The Bos'un]

According to Islamic lore, Jesus is supposed to bear witness Islam himself during the last days.
Quran clearly says that Jesus was not crucified.Quran 4:157
"And their SAYING: Surely we have killed the Messiah, Isa son of Marium, the apostle of Allah; and they did not kill him nor did they crucify him, but it was made to appear to them so and most surely those who DIFFER therein are only in a DOUBT about it; they have NO KNOWLEDGE RESPECTING IT, but only follow a CONJECTURE, and they killed him not for sure." M.H. Shakir, Yusaf Ali
This verse is referring to people in Muhammad's time who made the claim that Jesus was killed (see verse 153 of the same Surah which indicates it was people in Muhammad's time.)
The following verse also shows that Jesus was never crucified but rather taken up to heaven just as Enoch and Elijah as stated above.
Quran 3:55
"And when Allah said: O Isa, I am going to terminate the period of your stay (on earth) and cause you to ascend unto Me and purify you of those who disbelieve and make those who follow you above those who disbelieve to the day of resurrection; then to Me shall be your return, so I will decide between you concerning that in which you differed." Source: why-christians-convert-to-islam

[The Bos'un]

Muhammad's recitations are rather delusional, unless one believes in them. It is theoretically possible that the final clash of civilizations will take place because of the dogmatic rejection of Christ as the Son of G_d.

It is theoretically possible that the atheists and agnostics will be forced to one side or another of the conflict.

You see my friends, radicalized islam does not care what religion one is as long as one is a Muhammadan. So, one may consider converting to Islam or be guilty of blasphemy.

Just "Who" the enemy is in the end will depend on what one believes. I do not think that apologists and appeasers will be let off as friends of the faith.

Droog has pointed out much in his round table.

[sgtmac_46]

I would counter that the Right's ideology does not allow for any deviation from a specific set of rules. The Left is more adaptive to new situations and concepts.

I would also disagree that majority Islam wants to do anything other than be left to itself. There are fanatics in every religion, and theirs are obviously more dangerous than ours; but you're not going to win hearts and minds by painting everyone who practices Islam a fanatic...

Tolerance is an invitation to exchange ideas, and work to better our understanding.... not a vaccuum, not a weakness.... it takes true strength to allow challenges to our own ideology without throwing a coniption fit....

As for Islam's ascendency, it's been growing for centuries; without force of arms... Islam has not grown without force of arms....that statement shows a fundamental ignorance of the history of Islam that automatically destroys any credibility you have for the entire rest of your post.....Islam from it's inception at the hands of it's founder has been a violently expansive religion, spread every bit as much by the sword as the word.

The rest of your post merely reinforces my earlier statement on western civilization......the notion that other cultures are interested in 'exchanging' ideas with you is the fundamental flaw in your ideology.......Islam wishes to dominate and supplant, not 'engage in an exchange of ideas'.......your belief that the rest of the world is ready to simply sit down and sing kumbya simply because western civilization has become so prosperous and decadent that it's afforded individuals time to create secular humanism is a complete error in logic.......perhaps some day they'll be at the place where we are.......but our civilization will be long gone when that happens.

Refer to my statement about 'Cultural Immune Systems', and read it until you fully understand......because the belief that ALL things alien are 'good' simply because they are 'different' is asinine in the extreme.

[The Bos'un]

Thank you SgtMac_46. I would like to add a little more to your comments:

Here is a little history lesson. Muhammad, whose name means, "highly praised," was born approximately 570 A.D. in Mecca. He lived a rather unremarkable life until, according to Islamic tradition, the angel Gabriel visited him at 40 years of age and called him into the service of Allah. Judaism and Christianity probably influenced Muhammad, along with the folk religions of the region.

As he sought to propagate his new religion, he was met with opposition. Town after town rejected Muhammad, as he sought to establish himself as Allah's messenger. Finally, in the little town of Yathrib (the name later changed to Medina; "the prophet's city") the residents paid honor to him.)

Muhammad's move to Medina is called "the Hegira," meaning the "breaking off of one's own tribe." This marks the beginning of the Muslim era: 622 A.D.

With the Hegira began a period of Muslim expansion. The people of Mecca who had rejected him became Muhammad's enemies; and in the name of Allah he began to prepare a "holy war" (Jihad) against them. Arming his followers, Muhammad conquered one village after another, building strength for an assault on Mecca. In 630 A.D. he entered Mecca as a conqueror and ordered the over 350 idols worshiped in the chief shrine, Kaaba, be destroyed. He declared that no unbeliever should enter Mecca again.

By the time that Muhammad died at the age of 61, 632 A.D, he had conquered most of Arabia.
From its very beginning Islam was spread by the edge of a sword. The history of Islam is replete with violence and warfare, from its birth to the present day. When the Muslims invaded Spain, it took over seven centuries to drive them out. The Muslim Ottoman Turks slaughtered a million Armenians in 1915-16 (a fact still ignored by much of the Western world). In the Sudan over two million Christians have been slaughtered under the direction of radical Islam. In Indonesia, Muslims have killed over 300,000 East Timorese Catholics since 1975. Source: Free Republic

[rhet 2]

Rhet, unfortunately the American sheeple seem unwilling to diagnose the problem and offer a cure. Droog, KAOSKTRL, Lord Dreadmore, et al, provided a very good discussion topic in this round table.

Overlooking the latest comments of this round table discussion, the ones most recent, (This round table was conducted 2 years ago), some are avoiding the real topic, know your enemy.

I know that you recognize the enemy and continue to hit hard, but, some appear to be apologist, appeasers, and the such without a clue what we are going to face.

We are on the edge of a cliff in a very precarious position. But, somehow I do not believe that the American sheeple are ready for the pound of cure.

My asking where and how to pay Jizya was a tongue in cheek response to this situation that we are faced with.

For radical Islamists, there exist two kinds of non-Muslim enemies... Non-believers of Islam (كافر kāfir) and "People of the Book" (أهل الكتاب, Ahl al- Kitâb), . Kafir must either convert to Islam or face execution. People of the Book include Jews and Christians will need only submit to Muslim authority to avoid forced conversion or death.

Although people of the book are supposed to be able to keep their original faith, their status becomes Dhimmi (a "protected," yet inferior non-Muslim status), they will have to agree to rules and regulations such as the Pact of Umar (http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/jewish/jews-umar.html).

Instead of outright forced conversion or slaughter, the Christians and Jews are supposed to be allowed to remain somewhat unmolested as long as they acknowledged the superiority of the Muslim.

However, as untold thousands of dead Lebanese Christians and Israel's beleaguered Jewish population have discovered over the years, these guarantees may be worthless!

We need to get back on track with the topic of Droog's roundtable discussion..

Fully concur.

That thread with link after link after link taught me HUGE amounts -- and got me reading islamic texts themselves.

Stunning.

Question:

We know that islam CANNOT tolerate resistance to imam control because Allah forbids disobedience of their priests and "teachers."

Yet, because of the centuries and centuries of religious abuse by politicians who used religion as an excuse to destroy their political enemies, Christians fled Europe and created two critical principles which have -- so far, anyway -- prevented the renewal of those Wars of Religion:

a) the Separation of Church and State
b) legal tolerance under the law for all religious convictions, regardless, so long as no life is endangered by the religion

Now, we have imams in Europe and the US and Australia and Canada BRAGGING that those two precepts make it impossible for us to stop their own bigotry and brutal intolerance, leading eventually to their own power to usurp our government and change our own laws to foster islamic intolerance.

How do we, effectively, stop that from happening without ourselves destroying those two CRITICAL cultural norms?

I can see only one way to do so: declare jihad and islamic intolerance to be a hate crime under the same laws that have been used to stop the KKK killing sprees.

But that would require at least one court case that goes all the way to SCOTUS.

And, given the current liberal corruption and bigotry in our own federal judiciary, I don't see how that's going to happen.

[Abe]

Fully concur.

That thread with link after link after link taught me HUGE amounts -- and got me reading islamic texts themselves.

Stunning.

Question:

We know that islam CANNOT tolerate resistance to imam control because Allah forbids disobedience of their priests and "teachers."

Yet, because of the centuries and centuries of religious abuse by politicians who used religion as an excuse to destroy their political enemies, Christians fled Europe and created two critical principles which have -- so far, anyway -- prevented the renewal of those Wars of Religion:

a) the Separation of Church and State
b) legal tolerance under the law for all religious convictions, regardless, so long as no life is endangered by the religion

Now, we have imams in Europe and the US and Australia and Canada BRAGGING that those two precepts make it impossible for us to stop their own bigotry and brutal intolerance, leading eventually to their own power to usurp our government and change our own laws to foster islamic intolerance.

How do we, effectively, stop that from happening without ourselves destroying those two CRITICAL cultural norms?

I can see only one way to do so: declare jihad and islamic intolerance to be a hate crime under the same laws that have been used to stop the KKK killing sprees.

But that would require at least one court case that goes all the way to SCOTUS.

And, given the current liberal corruption and bigotry in our own federal judiciary, I don't see how that's going to happen.
rhet, I don't think that would stop it, because there's always a way around. The KKK is an inherently American organization and suffers from the same limitations of mentality that are prevalent in the West. Jihadists have a "total purity" concept, that goes way beyond anything a Westener could conceive. They also tend to have, in their ranks, people who are more educated and creative than the KKK would ever dream of having.

This is not an American problem. Nor is it an Israeli problem. It's a universal problem and, until the West wakes up, cannot be solved. Two, or even five, nations cannot do this. It MUST be a total commitment by the West. We're running out of time. It may, in fact already be almost too late.

Look how long it's taking to react to the piracy off Somalia. Good old British Empire style Gunboat Policy should have been undertaken quite some time ago. Blow them out of the water each and every time and, after a few times it'll stop, just as soon as they realise that it isn't working.

[The Bos'un]

rhet, I don't think that would stop it, because there's always a way around. The KKK is an inherently American organization and suffers from the same limitations of mentality that are prevalent in the West. Jihadists have a "total purity" concept, that goes way beyond anything a Westener could conceive. They also tend to have, in their ranks, people who are more educated and creative than the KKK would ever dream of having.

This is not an American problem. Nor is it an Israeli problem. It's a universal problem and, until the West wakes up, cannot be solved. Two, or even five, nations cannot do this. It MUST be a total commitment by the West. We're running out of time. It may, in fact already be almost too late.

Look how long it's taking to react to the piracy off Somalia. Good old British Empire style Gunboat Policy should have been undertaken quite some time ago. Blow them out of the water each and every time and, after a few times it'll stop, just as soon as they realise that it isn't working.
Abe, you are right on the mark. And, you know history and the plight of the Jews. True this is not an "American problem" or "Israeli problem" as it is set to make a run on the whole free western world.

Just look at what happened to Spain during the golden age of Islam.

I strongly support Israelis right to exist and by what ever means the Israeli people decide is the best response.

I too agree with Thomas Jefferson's approach to the Barbary pirates. The Somalis are the same nature as Barbary pirates. We have to answer radical islam and piracy with strength and resolve. Anything short will be a sign of weakness.

Peace and strength be with you brother.

Shalom,
Bosun

[Abe]

Abe, you are right on the mark. And, you know history and the plight of the Jews. True this is not an "American problem" or "Israeli problem" as it is set to make a run on the whole free western world.

Just look at what happened to Spain during the golden age of Islam.

I strongly support Israelis right to exist and by what ever means the Israeli people decide is the best response.

I too agree with Thomas Jefferson's approach to the Barbary pirates. The Somalis are the same nature as Barbary pirates. We have to answer radical islam and piracy with strength and resolve. Anything short will be a sign of weakness.

Peace and strength be with you brother.

Shalom,
Bosun

Thank you, Bro'sun, and Shalom to you too.

[sgtmac_46]

rhet, I don't think that would stop it, because there's always a way around. The KKK is an inherently American organization and suffers from the same limitations of mentality that are prevalent in the West. Jihadists have a "total purity" concept, that goes way beyond anything a Westener could conceive. They also tend to have, in their ranks, people who are more educated and creative than the KKK would ever dream of having.

This is not an American problem. Nor is it an Israeli problem. It's a universal problem and, until the West wakes up, cannot be solved. Two, or even five, nations cannot do this. It MUST be a total commitment by the West. We're running out of time. It may, in fact already be almost too late.

Look how long it's taking to react to the piracy off Somalia. Good old British Empire style Gunboat Policy should have been undertaken quite some time ago. Blow them out of the water each and every time and, after a few times it'll stop, just as soon as they realise that it isn't working. Time to dust off the old Punitive Expedition concept.

[The Bos'un]

They are all weak

[mark23]

They are all weak
amen. They are all losers. The biggest one was Bush. Maybe right after 9/11 he could have gotten away with being unpolitically correct. Now in our current enviroment its impossible. Bush may be the biggest MORAL coward in human history. No one will be more responsible for islams win.
Bush=Coward/Draft Dodger/Idiot/Civilization destroyed/traitor(on Saudi payroll),failure
Dhimmi Bush will go down as one of the great figures in islamic history. Thanks for the record number of muslim immigrants and mosques on your watch.
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=52962

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=58026

[The Bos'un]

You can bash Boooooooosh in another thread, my friend....... And I will not bash your messiah, President Oby...... I did not realize that you suffered from Bush Derangement Syndrome so severly..... :))

[mark23]

You can bash Boooooooosh in another thread, my friend....... And I will not bash your messiah, President Oby...... I did not realize that you suffered from Bush Derangement Syndrome so severly..... :))

Oby is not my messiah. I just have a tiny little more respect for him because at least he's a muslim so his loyality to islam is a little more understandable. Thanks for the private message.

[The Bos'un]

You respect him for being an Apostate?
In an interview with Nicholas Kristof, published in The New York Times, Obama recited the Adhan "with a first-class [Arabic] accent."

The opening lines of the Adhan (Azaan) is the Shahada:

"Allah is Supreme! Allah is Supreme! allahu akbar الله أكبر allahu akbar الله أكبر
Allah is Supreme! Allah is Supreme! allahu akbar الله أكبر allahu akbar الله أكبر
I witness that there is no god but Allah Ash-hadu an lā ilāha illallāh أشهد أن لا اله إلا الله
I witness that there is no god but Allah Ash-hadu an lā ilāha illallāh أشهد أن لا اله إلا الله
I witness that Muhammad is his prophet... " Ash-hadu anna Muħammadan rasūlullāhشهد أن محمدا رسول الله



However, Oby publicly rejected the religion of his father. He is an Apostate and claims he is a Christian which makes him Ahl al-Kitāb ( أهل الكتاب ‎ ) ....

[mark23]

You respect him for being an Apostate?
In an interview with Nicholas Kristof, published in The New York Times, Obama recited the Adhan "with a first-class [Arabic] accent."

The opening lines of the Adhan (Azaan) is the Shahada:

"Allah is Supreme! Allah is Supreme! allahu akbar الله أكبر allahu akbar الله أكبر
Allah is Supreme! Allah is Supreme! allahu akbar الله أكبر allahu akbar الله أكبر
I witness that there is no god but Allah Ash-hadu an lā ilāha illallāh أشهد أن لا اله إلا الله
I witness that there is no god but Allah Ash-hadu an lā ilāha illallāh أشهد أن لا اله إلا الله
I witness that Muhammad is his prophet... " Ash-hadu anna Muħammadan rasūlullāhشهد أن محمدا رسول الله



However, Oby publicly rejected the religion of his father. He is an Apostate and claims he is a Christian which makes him Ahl al-Kitāb ( أهل الكتاب ‎ ) ....

Key word publicly. It was done to gain office. I don't really respect him much just understand why he'd stick with his people. I hate the guy but see where he is coming from. Bush let his own people down out of cowardice/PC and saudi oil $$$

[The Bos'un]

I would not say that President Bush was a prince of a guy. However, he had a sincere heart. I would not say he was a coward. He did what he thought was right and did not back down in the face opposition. Politically correct? The guy had about 70% disapproval rating. He was marching to his own drum beat.

Saudi oil, give me a break. The invasion of Iraq will be argued and hashed out for years to come. Saddam Hussein had it coming to him and the world was spineless in front of him as they are most other dictators. Bush invaded, get over it.

I am not sure what it will take for you to get over Booooooosh Derangement Syndrome. Booooooooosh was not the enemy....

The enemy is much bigger than he. The foundation of evilness that the secular world avoids in the real enemy.

Now we really should get back to the original intent of the OP.

[free2B]

I think many people understand that Islam is the root of our problems in this conflict but are too hardened by pride to admit we lack the capabilities to win this militarily. And God forbid we admit as much to the rest of the world.

But the issue now is our survival, not our credibility or our prestige. The nature of warfare has shifted, largely due to the characteristics of the ideology we're fighting, which glorifies death and uses our respect for human life against us. We can defeat any army in the world head-to-head. But our enemies don't fight in this manner anymore.

Thus we may know that there are five essentials for victory:
He will win who knows when to fight and when not to fight.
He will win who knows how to handle both superior and inferior forces.
He will win whose army is animated by the same spirit throughout all ranks.
He will win who, prepared himself, waits to take the enemy unprepared.
He will win who has military capacity and is not interfered with by the sovereign.

Victory lies in the knowledge of those five points. Hence the saying: If you know the enemy and know yourself, you need not fear the result of a hundred battles.
~Sun Tzu

your thoughts and words are lengthy yet worth reading droog, unfortunately we in this Country do not have the capacity to follow your advice. the problem seems to be fighting a 7th century war with 21st century technology, and our Great Land has laid out the welcome mat to those who wish to destroy US, as was said by the late Krushchev we will sell them the rope to hang themselves

[RickRhetoric]

One must have been an actual participant at the scene of battles, preferably a lowly infantryman, to appreciate the full effect of war and its grisly, stinking, putrid meaning.

Authors fill volumes with many fancy and fascinating words about "war." But one can never understand war unless one has been available to receive bullets; personally experience the associated terror; prolonged physical discomfort; and misery which accompanies these horrific events only known by a relatively few on this earth.

People who write about war -- should first ride to the sound of the guns and experience the horror.

[The Bos'un]

One must have been an actual participant at the scene of battles, preferably a lowly infantryman, to appreciate the full effect of war and its grisly, stinking, putrid meaning.

Authors fill volumes with many fancy and fascinating words about "war." But one can never understand war unless one has been available to receive bullets; personally experience the associated terror; prolonged physical discomfort; and misery which accompanies these horrific events only known by a relatively few on this earth.

People who write about war -- should first ride to the sound of the guns and experience the horror.
you have seen the elephant....

[free2B]

One must have been an actual participant at the scene of battles, preferably a lowly infantryman, to appreciate the full effect of war and its grisly, stinking, putrid meaning.

Authors fill volumes with many fancy and fascinating words about "war." But one can never understand war unless one has been available to receive bullets; personally experience the associated terror; prolonged physical discomfort; and misery which accompanies these horrific events only known by a relatively few on this earth.

People who write about war -- should first ride to the sound of the guns and experience the horror.

I have seen the horror of war I visited the twin towers when they were still proudly standing. I will leave the further response to those who have sacrificed their time and their lives to serve our Great Country:flag:

[mark23]

I would not say that President Bush was a prince of a guy. However, he had a sincere heart. I would not say he was a coward. He did what he thought was right and did not back down in the face opposition. Politically correct? The guy had about 70% disapproval rating. He was marching to his own drum beat.

Saudi oil, give me a break. The invasion of Iraq will be argued and hashed out for years to come. Saddam Hussein had it coming to him and the world was spineless in front of him as they are most other dictators. Bush invaded, get over it.

I am not sure what it will take for you to get over Booooooosh Derangement Syndrome. Booooooooosh was not the enemy....

The enemy is much bigger than he. The foundation of evilness that the secular world avoids in the real enemy.

Now we really should get back to the original intent of the OP.

Your right about the enemy being bigger than him. Sorry but Bush was a soft multiculturist who blew it. If he would have defined the enemy right after 9/11 at the time he could have gotten away with it.
Didn't mean to say Bush was the only one on the Saudi payroll. They all are. Everyone in Washington.
http://www.amazon.com/Sleeping-Devil-Washington-Saudi-Crude/dp/1400050219

It wasn't worth taking Sadam out. He didn't have the weapons and best of all he was a secular dictator. Thats about as good as it gets in the middle east short of nuking a country. We should have defended the homeland instead, took out Irans nukes and invaded Saudi Arabia.

[The Bos'un]

I am not up with your notion about Bush being a Saudi-ite. I agree that we should have put in the coordinates for Iran.

Iraq, Saddam had it coming. Bremmer ****ed up the initial occupation as did Bush's advisers.