Ask a Baptist

[hillplus]

. You said the mormons practice this today? Maybe I'll ask them about it to get another view and understanding.

Yes, please. I can't answer right now, but there are many educated LDS folks who can explain our point of view.:)

[cbut1]

That I got (v29)...but you seemed to completely skirt the other questions/concerns that I mentioned.

Which one again?

[Reeder]

I would like to see that family tree.

The fact is there is no family tree. I've had this discussion in great length with many baptist.

There are hundreds and hundreds of different denominations of baptist. Many of them hold many different beliefs and none of them are centered around a central topic. Some baptist do not even believe they have the "authority" to put anyone into the body of Christ.



Some baptist would consider the above portion of your quote to relate baptism regeneration. Since the phrase indicates the authority of the "church" is needed to be part of the "body of Christ".

Some reformed baptist hold this view... some others do not. There is really no such thing as united front when comes to those that call themselves "baptist". The key in the phrase being ......."call themselves". Since there is no really central theme and many different denomination beleive in baptism after confession. This is not a defining belief any "exclusive" group.

This does lead me to a question I have asked many baptist with many varying responses. None of which every address the issue.

There is only one person in any canon of the bible that has ever carried the title or name... "baptist". That was John the Baptist. He came preaching "baptism" or the center of his teaching was baptism. AS such he had this defining title or name. No one else ever has been recorded in over 60 years of history recorded in the book of Acts or any of the epistles being called after John. Now they are called after Christ in the book of Acts and again in the book of Peter in being called Christian. Never after John. Never.

No tree. No history except a history that some began that had no foundation in any teaching of the early church.

Why then should anyone call themselves Baptist? When there is no biblical foundation to do so. None. There are to being called Christian and that honors Christ.

Paul asked a similar question when he asked

1Co 1:13 Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?

No one is baptised in the name of Paul or in the name of John the Baptist.

Why then where is the proof or substance to being called baptist?

I'm sure "Baptists" would also consider themselves to be "Christian." ;)

[av4play]

Which one again?

So if I understand this chapter, the "saints" that had strayed would be more terrestial. Which to me kind of conflicts with the later verses that says loosey, if I lived a sinful life but do my best I will be raised in power and glory.

I haven't got to much out of the few churchs I've attended so I'm trying to branch out and have my questions answered. I don't want to argue any point but, some have just ignored or done the "political" bypass to what I bring up. At least you have brought up a point that I haven't heard before. I'll have to research it more. You said the mormons practice this today? Maybe I'll ask them about it to get another view and understanding.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I read a little more and I see that the glories seem to be a parable of the sun moon and stars v40 and 41. This tells me that instead of one heaven there would be several places to go, pending on one's faithfulness. Didn't Christ say there were many mansions.

Maybe Hillplus could enlighten the thread on this.

[av4play]

It seems that "lltj" makes a good point, that I've seen time and time again. The different Baptist churchs all have their own take and interpretation.

I know that may sound a bit divisive, and I would hate to have this turn into a he said she said or something like that. I know that the Saviour would want us all teaching the same thing no matter where we were at.

[Reeder]

It seems that "lltj" makes a good point, that I've seen time and time again. The different Baptist churchs all have their own take and interpretation.

I know that may sound a bit divisive, and I would hate to have this turn into a he said she said or something like that. I know that the Saviour would want us all teaching the same thing no matter where we were at.

Hence the need for structure - organization.

[Reeder]

I read a little more and I see that the glories seem to be a parable of the sun moon and stars v40 and 41. This tells me that instead of one heaven there would be several places to go, pending on one's faithfulness. Didn't Christ say there were many mansions.

Maybe Hillplus could enlighten the thread on this.

Perhaps you should take this question to one of the Mormon threads. Try this one ----------> click (http://forums.hannity.com/showthread.php?t=873151)

[av4play]

Perhaps you should take this question to one of the Mormon threads. Try this one ----------> click (http://forums.hannity.com/showthread.php?t=873151)

I think you're right.....I didn't get much of an answer in here. That has been par for the course when I have brought it up before with other pastors..

Thanks for the advice. From all that I've heard from the "Mormons" they will do all they can to answer your questions, unlike the avoidance that I got from cbut1.

[Reeder]

I think you're right.....I didn't get much of an answer in here. That has been par for the course when I have brought it up before with other pastors..

Thanks for the advice. From all that I've heard from the "Mormons" they will do all they can to answer your questions, unlike the avoidance that I got from cbut1.

I'm sure cbut is more than willing to answer any questions posed about Baptists. Just give him some time.

[av4play]

I'm sure that you are right. Maybe I was a little mistaken...Baptist, Catholic, Lutheran all different but espousing to teach the same doctrine.....I just don't understand why that is. Maybe I should have just stuck with symantic issues rather that actual doctorine.

[cbut1]

I think you're right.....I didn't get much of an answer in here. That has been par for the course when I have brought it up before with other pastors..

Thanks for the advice. From all that I've heard from the "Mormons" they will do all they can to answer your questions, unlike the avoidance that I got from cbut1.

Before you get all twisted and turned about what you think I will and will not answer try a little patience. :eh:

I have today off of work so I was able to play for a little while at first then I had to feed the kids lunch put the young ones down for a nap finish homeschooling for the day and then go outside and cut up to large tree branches that fell in the yard. Right now I am B-B-Qing some chicken and potatoes, while that is going on I stopped in to catch a quick update. After dinner tonight I will be taking the kids to a Church youth rally at a sister assembly of ours. Then after all that is done and over it is some quiet time for me and the wife, which happens way less frequently than it aught to.

So like I said be patient I am not ignoring you nor am I unable to answer I am busy, you'll find that many conversations have gaps in time get used to it.

Mormon questions can be asked and answered by Mormons in their own threads I think you'll find that the same gap in conversations happen there also.

[av4play]

Before you get all twisted and turned about what you think I will and will not answer try a little patience. :eh:

I have today off of work so I was able to play for a little while at first then I had to feed the kids lunch put the young ones down for a nap finish homeschooling for the day and then go outside and cut up to large tree branches that fell in the yard. Right now I am B-B-Qing some chicken and potatoes, while that is going on I stopped in to catch a quick update. After dinner tonight I will be taking the kids to a Church youth rally at a sister assembly of ours. Then after all that is done and over it is some quiet time for me and the wife, which happens way less frequently than it aught to.

So like I said be patient I am not ignoring you nor am I unable to answer I am busy, you'll find that many conversations have gaps in time get used to it.

Mormon questions can be asked and answered by Mormons in their own threads I think you'll find that the same gap in conversations happen there also.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I applaud you for the work and effort you are placing on your family. I too homeschool my children (4). I wish more parents would take such quality time with there kids, as the world seems to be sinking faster than we can run at times. Keep up the good fight.

As I had mentioned before, "Baptist, Catholic, Lutheran all different but espousing to teach the same doctrine.....I just don't understand why that is. Maybe I should have just stuck with symantic issues rather that actual doctorine." I didn't relize that there was so much animosity between the various sects. I guess the old adage is true "that if you want your pipes fixed, don't ask the electrician." Meaning if I want to learn of the Baptist...ask a Baptist, not a Mormon, and visa-a-versa as you will not get the whole truth. And boy did I find that the case from my Pastor when he went off at the pulpit. Maybe he has something to fear.

I will only ask specific Baptist sect questions in here, and not those of doctrinal value. My mistake was thinking that the gospel of Jesus Christ was that of unity and love for all.

I have been confronted in other forums very harshly, when I bring up the prospect of seeking information and knowledge from "other" religious sects (i.e. Baptist, Lutheran, Episcopalian, ect). The worse is when I mention talking to the Mormon church. I don't understand why this is. I've heard nothing but good of their work and help in the community.

God Bless America for the opportunity and privilage to worship however we choose!!

[hillplus]

Before you get all twisted and turned about what you think I will and will not answer try a little patience. :eh:

I have today off of work so I was able to play for a little while at first then I had to feed the kids lunch put the young ones down for a nap finish homeschooling for the day and then go outside and cut up to large tree branches that fell in the yard. Right now I am B-B-Qing some chicken and potatoes, while that is going on I stopped in to catch a quick update. After dinner tonight I will be taking the kids to a Church youth rally at a sister assembly of ours. Then after all that is done and over it is some quiet time for me and the wife, which happens way less frequently than it aught to.

So like I said be patient I am not ignoring you nor am I unable to answer I am busy, you'll find that many conversations have gaps in time get used to it.

Mormon questions can be asked and answered by Mormons in their own threads I think you'll find that the same gap in conversations happen there also.

You're awesome!

[cbut1]

You're awesome!

As long as my wife continues to thinks so as well then I am set. :D

[CID_0687]

Soo...yeah that Cuba idea didn't exactly work like I planned. :redface:

[cbut1]

Soo...yeah that Cuba idea didn't exactly work like I planned. :redface:



:lol:

:think: Lets see a bus a highway and an ocean humm I wonder what the problem could have been. :eh:

[cbut1]

I read a little more and I see that the glories seem to be a parable of the sun moon and stars v40 and 41. This tells me that instead of one heaven there would be several places to go, pending on one's faithfulness. Didn't Christ say there were many mansions.


Yes He did say there were many mansions (which is plural in tone) in Gods House (which is singular in tone).

Joh 14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you; for I go to prepare a place for you.

Joh 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I come again, and will receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

Joh 14:4 And whither I go, ye know the way.


Notice the manner in which Christ stated this and also to whom He was speaking to. Lets break down the verse a little and see if you find this agreeable with Scripture.

Joh 14:2
In my Father’s house are many mansions — and so room for all, and a place for each.
if not, I would have told you — that is, I would tell you so at once; I would not deceive you.
I go to prepare a place for you — to obtain for you a right to be there, and to possess your “place.”

Christ isn't speaking this to the lost or to national Israel He is speaking about this to those whom are His disciples, more prominantly His Church.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Now as far as any connection with the verses in 1 Corithians 15: 40 41 I will have to study that in context with these and pray about that before I can answer. I can however address those verses seperatly upon their own merit and context.

1Co 15:39 All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one flesh of men, and another flesh of beasts, and another flesh of birds, and another of fishes.

1Co 15:40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.

1Co 15:41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars; for one star differeth from another star in glory.

1Co 15:42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:

1Co 15:43 it is sown in dishonor; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:

1Co 15:44 it is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.


The context of the verses are dealing with the basic comparison of flesh and spirit not so much location and destiny. Paul shows that the glorious body that is now present in the flesh is nothing in comparison to the Glorious Body that comes from the resurrection. Thus connecting back to the beginning of the chapter showing that the resurrection is real and its value far surpasses that which mortal man can obtain by his own merits and effort. Verses 39 - 41 are basis verses used to highlight the comparison and you can verify that by this portion in verse 42 "So also is the resurrection of the dead" Paul uses the understanding of the glories in the heavens (sun, moon, and stars) to amplify the truth of the resurrection.

[cbut1]

av4play;36203851]~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I applaud you for the work and effort you are placing on your family. I too homeschool my children (4). I wish more parents would take such quality time with there kids, as the world seems to be sinking faster than we can run at times. Keep up the good fight.


My wife works hard all week doing most of the homeschooling of 3 of our 4 kiddos (1 is only 3 and still to young) so when I get the opportunity to help her I try to so that she can go detox (from the kids) with the adult women in our Church.


I have been confronted in other forums very harshly, when I bring up the prospect of seeking information and knowledge from "other" religious sects (i.e. Baptist, Lutheran, Episcopalian, ect). The worse is when I mention talking to the Mormon church. I don't understand why this is. I've heard nothing but good of their work and help in the community.

God Bless America for the opportunity and privilage to worship however we choose!!


You will find some here that will be harsh more often than they should but there is a number of factors that are in place to make this a more harmonious environment. Such as the ROR that I mentioned previously also many of us have been around for a good deal of time and if one of us tells you that you might be crossing a line that the Moderators have in place consider that to be possible and chose your words more carefully. We are mostly adults here and we aught to be able to police our own behavior pretty well before a mod gets involved.

Also for me personally I don't care whom you choose to ask questions of, for I am confident in what I offer up for discussion or else I don't offer it. I have been on this forum for more than 2 years now and have been in conversations with everyone at one point or another. My strength of character has been proven and my understanding of scripture is nearly unmatched (I m beginning to sound boa****l now so I will stop with that).

[cbut1]

I would like to see that family tree.

The fact is there is no family tree. I've had this discussion in great length with many baptist.

There are hundreds and hundreds of different denominations of baptist. Many of them hold many different beliefs and none of them are centered around a central topic. Some baptist do not even believe they have the "authority" to put anyone into the body of Christ.



Some baptist would consider the above portion of your quote to relate baptism regeneration. Since the phrase indicates the authority of the "church" is needed to be part of the "body of Christ".

Some reformed baptist hold this view... some others do not. There is really no such thing as united front when comes to those that call themselves "baptist". The key in the phrase being ......."call themselves". Since there is no really central theme and many different denomination beleive in baptism after confession. This is not a defining belief that is "exclusive" to be a baptist or in fact.... any other group.

This does lead me to a question I have asked many baptist with many varying responses. None of which every address the issue.

There is only one person in any canon of the bible that has ever carried the title or name... "baptist". That was John the Baptist. He came preaching "baptism" or the center of his teaching was baptism. AS such he had this defining title or name. No one else ever has been recorded in over 60 years of history recorded in the book of Acts or any of the epistles being called after John. Now they are called after Christ in the book of Acts and again in the book of Peter in being called Christian. Never after John. Never.

No tree. No history except a history that someone or people began afterwards...... that had no foundation in any teaching of the early church.

Why then should anyone call themselves Baptist? When there is no biblical foundation to do so. None. There is a foundation to being called Christian and that honors Christ.

Paul asked a similar question when he asked

1Co 1:13 Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?

No one is baptised in the name of Paul or in the name of John the Baptist.

Why then where is the proof or substance to being called baptist?


I have been over this partially already in this thread so if you would like you could start from the beginning and read through it to see a point of reference. I know there is at least 2 posts with in the first 10 pages that could be helpful to you.



The sincerity of your character will be shown in your effort to find the answers to your own questions.

Also since you are also a newby I welcome you to Hannity's Religious forum, please read the Rules of Respect (ROR) it is the first thread on the thread tital page.

[RayMan]

<snip> My strength of character has been proven and my understanding of scripture is nearly unmatched (I m beginning to sound boa****l now so I will stop with that).

Yeah, good idea, homey. :cool: :dance:

[cbut1]

Yeah, good idea, homey. :cool: :dance:



:shhh:

[RayMan]

:shhh:

:lol: :lol:

[cbut1]

So Ray have I answered all of your questions thus far?

[RayMan]

In a most exemplary manner thank you.

[CID_0687]

:lol:

:think: Lets see a bus a highway and an ocean humm I wonder what the problem could have been. :eh:
I just can't do it cbut1...I don't have the power!

[RayMan]

I just can't do it cbut1...I don't have the power!

Wuss.

[cbut1]

I just can't do it cbut1...I don't have the power!


Are ya sure your "Givin er all she got capt" :)


Or do you need some more dylithium crystals?

[buflineks]

Or do you need some more dylithium crystals?

And a longer ramp.:cool:

[RayMan]

And a longer ramp.:cool:

CID claims to be related to Evel Knievel but I am beginning to have my doubts.

[cbut1]

CID claims to be related to Evel Knievel but I am beginning to have my doubts.

Yeah I agree, Evil never said I can't.

He may have said I will die trying but never I can't. :)

[cbut1]

And a longer ramp.:cool:

Mornin friend did you get the links I offered?

Is there anything else I can help with at this point?

[RayMan]

Yeah I agree, Evil never said I can't.

He may have said I will die trying but never I can't. :)


From Evel's wiki page - buf's favorite source - we find the truth of that.
----------------------------------


His achievements and failures, including his record 433 broken bones, earned him several entries in the Guinness Book of World Records.[2]

[Meriweather]

Yeah I agree, Evil never said I can't.

He may have said I will die trying but never I can't. :)


Snake River Canyon?

[cbut1]

Snake River Canyon?

:think:
Did he say he couldn't or that it just couldn't be done.

Semantics maybe but had he been given more time on this earth I think he would have tried with modern technologies.

:)

[Meriweather]

:think:
Did he say he couldn't or that it just couldn't be done.

Semantics maybe but had he been given more time on this earth I think he would have tried with modern technologies.

:)


In either case, he was quite a guy. I'm glad we didn't lose him to the Snake River.

[CID_0687]

Yeah I agree, Evil never said I can't.

He may have said I will die trying but never I can't. :)
Hey...I tried, I thought it was 90 yards of ocean, not 90 miles...nobody sent me the memo on that.

[Meriweather]

Hey...I tried, I thought it was 90 yards of ocean, not 90 miles...nobody sent me the memo on that.

CID! That was taught to you in school! Didn't you take any notes?!?

[CID_0687]

CID! That was taught to you in school! Didn't you take any notes?!?
Nah, I've got a photographic memory...apparently that photo must have had a water spot on it.

[cbut1]

Ok folks next in line for any questions to be answered.

[CID_0687]

This may have already been asked, but I'm not reading back through 500+ posts to find out.

Many Baptists believe "once saved always saved"...I believe that myself, but many who believe this think that it means they can live however they choose and because they're saved they've got a free trip to heaven...where does this mentality come from? Is it in their teaching...or them not following the teaching?

[cbut1]

This may have already been asked, but I'm not reading back through 500+ posts to find out.

Many Baptists believe "once saved always saved"...I believe that myself, but many who believe this think that it means they can live however they choose and because they're saved they've got a free trip to heaven...where does this mentality come from? Is it in their teaching...or them not following the teaching?

No it hasn't been asked in this thread and after I get the kiddos down and lock up the house I will answer you.

[CID_0687]

no it hasn't been asked in this thread and after i get the kiddos down and lock up the house i will answer you.
10-4 :)

[cbut1]

This may have already been asked, but I'm not reading back through 500+ posts to find out.

Many Baptists believe "once saved always saved"...I believe that myself, but many who believe this think that it means they can live however they choose and because they're saved they've got a free trip to heaven...where does this mentality come from? Is it in their teaching...or them not following the teaching?


Your right many think that it means there is no further obligation to their service to God because as I once heard someone proclaim "I gots it all once I got saved". The reason is they erroniously think that God is blind to their actions once they have accepted Christ. When in reality the opposite is true, those in the world are condemned already God will only hear their prayers of repentance nothing more. Gods people though He watches and cares for even in their error and like a good father on earth does He disciplines them with harsh punishments at times but always with love.

Here is the OT example that I have used time and again.

Israel was in Egypt and desired to be free from that oppression God heard their cries and sent the deliverer. At the end of the plagues God told Israel that they needed to sacrifice a unblemished Lamb and place it on their door posts. For death was coming and anyone whom was not prepared PROPERLY by the Blood sacrifice was condemned already. That death angel comes through and Israel is delivered as God had promised (it is a done deal) but Israel still needed to be delivered to the promised land (the second portion of Gods promise). So although they were delivered/saved from Egypt they were not supposed to stop there they had further to go to be in covenant relationship with God. How? They then went through the sea/baptised (I believe it is the Gulf of Aqubah) to meet with God on His mountain to recieve His Laws following His Spirit. After recieving those laws in one accord they were then to continue on into the promised land that God had already prepared for them.

Anyway their salvation from death in Egypt was certain and cannot be taken away (once saved always saved) but it was not the fullness that God desired for His people either. For He desired that they enter into the promised land also by following His Spirit in faithful obeidience to the Laws God gave.

So for me the fullness of once saved always saved is the deliverence from death and continuing on into the Promised land being fully delivered from this world. For once we enter into the Kingdom of God our destiny is absolutly secured for eternity.

[CID_0687]

Your right many think that it means there is no further obligation to their service to God because as I once heard someone proclaim "I gots it all once I got saved". The reason is they erroniously think that God is blind to their actions once they have accepted Christ. When in reality the opposite is true, those in the world are condemned already God will only hear their prayers of repentance nothing more. Gods people though He watches and cares for even in their error and like a good father on earth does He disciplines them with harsh punishments at times but always with love.

Here is the OT example that I have used time and again.

Israel was in Egypt and desired to be free from that oppression God heard their cries and sent the deliverer. At the end of the plagues God told Israel that they needed to sacrifice a unblemished Lamb and place it on their door posts. For death was coming and anyone whom was not prepared PROPERLY by the Blood sacrifice was condemned already. That death angel comes through and Israel is delivered as God had promised (it is a done deal) but Israel still needed to be delivered to the promised land (the second portion of Gods promise). So although they were delivered/saved from Egypt they were not supposed to stop there they had further to go to be in covenant relationship with God. How? They then went through the sea/baptised (I believe it is the Gulf of Aqubah) to meet with God on His mountain to recieve His Laws following His Spirit. After recieving those laws in one accord they were then to continue on into the promised land that God had already prepared for them.

Anyway their salvation from death in Egypt was certain and cannot be taken away (once saved always saved) but it was not the fullness that God desired for His people either. For He desired that they enter into the promised land also by following His Spirit in faithful obeidience to the Laws God gave.

So for me the fullness of once saved always saved is the deliverence from death and continuing on into the Promised land being fully delivered from this world. For once we enter into the Kingdom of God our destiny is absolutly secured for eternity.
Thanks cbut1 that's good teaching.

I believe similarly to how you do...Salvation is a gift that's freely given from God our Father...it's not something we deserve, yet because He loves us He gives it to us. And like any father, they're not going to take a gift away from their child...however, the child should repay the Father with as much love as he/she possibly can...and with this love there should be respect...an obedient child always does as their father wishes...because they know that their father knows what's best for them and is looking out for their best interest.

I often think of the Prodigal Son...His father gave him what was rightfully his and let him go out and do as he pleased...when the son saw the error of his ways he thought, if only I could be a servant in my father's house...we all know the story...His father welcomed him with open arms...right back into the family.

Had the son died out there alone would he still have been part of his father's family? Of course he would. But would he have had the joy of knowing just how much he was loved by his father, and family...would he have had the peace within himself for being an obedient child? I don't think so.

little c with a circle around it.

[5thIDSoldier]

Your right many think that it means there is no further obligation to their service to God because as I once heard someone proclaim "I gots it all once I got saved". The reason is they erroniously think that God is blind to their actions once they have accepted Christ. When in reality the opposite is true, those in the world are condemned already God will only hear their prayers of repentance nothing more. Gods people though He watches and cares for even in their error and like a good father on earth does He disciplines them with harsh punishments at times but always with love.

Here is the OT example that I have used time and again.

Israel was in Egypt and desired to be free from that oppression God heard their cries and sent the deliverer. At the end of the plagues God told Israel that they needed to sacrifice a unblemished Lamb and place it on their door posts. For death was coming and anyone whom was not prepared PROPERLY by the Blood sacrifice was condemned already. That death angel comes through and Israel is delivered as God had promised (it is a done deal) but Israel still needed to be delivered to the promised land (the second portion of Gods promise). So although they were delivered/saved from Egypt they were not supposed to stop there they had further to go to be in covenant relationship with God. How? They then went through the sea/baptised (I believe it is the Gulf of Aqubah) to meet with God on His mountain to recieve His Laws following His Spirit. After recieving those laws in one accord they were then to continue on into the promised land that God had already prepared for them.

Anyway their salvation from death in Egypt was certain and cannot be taken away (once saved always saved) but it was not the fullness that God desired for His people either. For He desired that they enter into the promised land also by following His Spirit in faithful obeidience to the Laws God gave.

So for me the fullness of once saved always saved is the deliverence from death and continuing on into the Promised land being fully delivered from this world. For once we enter into the Kingdom of God our destiny is absolutly secured for eternity.

An excellent example.

Once saved always saved is NOT a license to sin.

[blazer]

Thanks cbut1 that's good teaching.

I believe similarly to how you do...Salvation is a gift that's freely given from God our Father...it's not something we deserve, yet because He loves us He gives it to us. And like any father, they're not going to take a gift away from their child...however, the child should repay the Father with as much love as he/she possibly can...and with this love there should be respect...an obedient child always does as their father wishes...because they know that their father knows what's best for them and is looking out for their best interest.

I often think of the Prodigal Son...His father gave him what was rightfully his and let him go out and do as he pleased...when the son saw the error of his ways he thought, if only I could be a servant in my father's house...we all know the story...His father welcomed him with open arms...right back into the family.

Had the son died out there alone would he still have been part of his father's family? Of course he would. But would he have had the joy of knowing just how much he was loved by his father, and family...would he have had the peace within himself for being an obedient child? I don't think so.

I love the way you said this, CID!

[CID_0687]

I love the way you said this, CID!
I'll let you use that for Sunday School if you like...on $1 per word. :D

[RayMan]

I'll let you use that for Sunday School if you like...on $1 per word. :D

You didn't copyright it. She owes you nothing.

Just sayin. ©

[CID_0687]

You didn't copyright it. She owes you nothing.

Just sayin. ©
Sorry 'bout that


check again. :whistle:

[RayMan]

Sorry 'bout that


check again. :whistle:

Her quote of you is time/date stamped BEFORE your edit. Retroactive copyrighting is gonna cost you more than it's worth. You can quote me on that.

[CID_0687]

Her quote of you is time/date stamped BEFORE your edit. Retroactive copyrighting is gonna cost you more than it's worth. You can quote me on that.
You think you're the only one who can ©...I think not. :razz: ©

[RayMan]

You think you're the only one who can ©...I think not. :razz: ©

Cut and paste or ascii characters from the keyboard?

[CID_0687]

Cut and paste or ascii characters from the keyboard?
ascli. ©

Þ

╢

[RayMan]

ascli. ©

Þ

╢

Good. You need to do that in the future. The reason you don't get any bucks off that other quote?


































You have not, because you ascii'd not. ©

[Koushi Shinigami]

Good. You need to do that in the future. The reason you don't get any bucks off that other quote?








You have not, because you ascii'd not. ©

:)):)):)):)):)):)):))

[CID_0687]

So what is the percentage on RF hijacking now?

[RayMan]

So what is the percentage on RF hijacking now?

The numbers are looking a lot better than Wall Street's. We should be back up to normal by tomorrow morning. That will no doubt be a great relief to everyone.

[blazer]

I'll let you use that for Sunday School if you like...on $1 per word. :D The Lord gives me my own lessons to teach but ty for your kind offer CID.;)

[outfromunder]

I'll let you use that for Sunday School if you like...on $1 per word. :D

Dadgum CID if you wont make a good baptist yet! :clap:

[CID_0687]

The Lord gives me my own lessons to teach but ty for your kind offer CID.;)
Tell ya what, since it's you I'll come down on the price...say $.75?

[CID_0687]

Dadgum CID if you wont make a good baptist yet! :clap:
Don't you know us Pentecostals are the ones referred to as Holy Rollers?

That also makes us good Wheeler Dealers. :mrgreen:

[cbut1]

next question please

[RayMan]

Even I want to move on after that one.:mrgreen:

[CID_0687]

Even I want to move on after that one.:mrgreen:
:eh:

[RayMan]

Just thought of one!

At least one of the pastors I had while a SBC member was of the opinion - and not reticent to share it from the pulpit - that any Christian who did not believe in OSAS was therefore not saved. What would your read be on that?

[RayMan]

Oh come on CID, Wheeler Dealers? Sheesh!!


Not your best work.

[CID_0687]

Oh come on CID, Wheeler Dealers? Sheesh!!


Not your best work.
Well, in my defense, at 60+ ppd I'm bound to have one that's a flop...I'm only human.

[vir doctus]

Just thought of one!

At least one of the pastors I had while a SBC member was of the opinion - and not reticent to share it from the pulpit - that any Christian who did not believe in OSAS was therefore not saved. What would your read be on that?

I wonder about those who claim to follow the Christ but still think salvation is a crap-shoot...

[cbut1]

Just thought of one!

At least one of the pastors I had while a SBC member was of the opinion - and not reticent to share it from the pulpit - that any Christian who did not believe in OSAS was therefore not saved. What would your read be on that?


Well I say Salvation is our faith in Christ as Savior!

It is not in wether one believes in OSAS or not. Once we set this or things like this as the measure or determination of whom is or is not saved then it is further subject anothers application or chosen interpretation of what that means.


Simply Christ is the Savior and it is ones faith in Him as that Savior that therefor saves someone.

[cbut1]

I gotta get back to work I had to come in early for some training and lunch is nearly over.


I'll be back tonight

[RayMan]

Yeah. I could never figure out where he came up with that one. Seems like he used to relate it to a lack of faith. If you couldn't believe OSAS you couldn't really trust Christ for salvation at all.

I remember one time I got in trouble during a Bible Study on OSAS when I interjected, "if somebody backslides and then comes back to God we say they weren't really saved before, the Pentecostals say they fell from grace and were then re-converted. Isn't that six of one, half dozen of the other?"

Nobody was amused.

[RayMan]

I gotta get back to work I had to come in early for some training and lunch is nearly over.


I'll be back tonight

OK. God bless.

[RayMan]

Well, in my defense, at 60+ ppd I'm bound to have one that's a flop...I'm only human.

That's not the word Jen has spreading around.

Just sayin. ©

[CID_0687]

Yeah. I could never figure out where he came up with that one. Seems like he used to relate it to a lack of faith. If you couldn't believe OSAS you couldn't really trust Christ for salvation at all.

I remember one time I got in trouble during a Bible Study on OSAS when I interjected, "if somebody backslides and then comes back to God we say they weren't really saved before, the Pentecostals say they fell from grace and were then re-converted. Isn't that six of one, half dozen of the other?"

Nobody was amused.
Yeah, there's no difference...if you backslide you backslide...but your salvation is still there on the shelf where you left it when you're ready to come back.

We all fall short daily...at times we fall farther than we do at others...none of us are perfect but His grace is sufficient.

We all fall into a rut from time to time...but that doesn't mean God doesn't love us anymore, or that we were never really saved...it just means we allowed our flesh to take control, and got a little weak in the spirit...

I get a little peeved when someone says that "So and so backslid...he never really knew God anyway."

Sure he did, and you know what when he comes back to God he won't be weaker, he'll be stronger.

I may get some flack for this, but...Backsliding can be beneficial to the Believer in a way...You get saved, a few years later you start getting complacent, you begin to remember the "fun" you had before you were saved...you go back out in the world, and then realize why you got saved in the first place...at least that was my experience.

[MONGOOSE]

To get saved twice, Jesus would have to live, die & rise again.

[CID_0687]

To get saved twice, Jesus would have to live, die & rise again.
Good point...you can't be born again, and again, and again, and again.

What does the Pentecostal Pope say about these matters?

[vir doctus]

Good point...you can't be born again, and again, and again, and again.

What does the Pentecostal Pope say about these matters?

He should say that sin is not a rejection of the Holy Spirit; if it were, we would never be blessed with His Holy Spiritness in the first place.

[CID_0687]

He should say that sin is not a rejection of the Holy Spirit; if it were, we would never be blessed with His Holy Spiritness in the first place.
If he said that I would have to agree with him...is Spritness a real word?

[MONGOOSE]

If he said that I would have to agree with him...is Spritness a real word?

I think that's the term used to describe 7-Up.

[RayMan]

To get saved twice, Jesus would have to live, die & rise again.


Yep.

Heb 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
Heb 6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
Heb 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

[vir doctus]

If he said that I would have to agree with him...is Spritness a real word?

No. But 'ornery' is, if you look it up you'll see a picture of me today...

[CID_0687]

No. But 'ornery' is, if you look it up you'll see a picture of me today...
Soo...you're a Frenchman named Henry? :shifty:

[blazer]

Tell ya what, since it's you I'll come down on the price...say $.75?
:hug:

[CaptainPike]

My wife (a former catholic) seems to think that baptists restrict what kinds of clothing a woman can wear.

I'm not baptist myself, so I can't confirm or deny it.

Is it true?

[vir doctus]

My wife (a former catholic) seems to think that baptists restrict what kinds of clothing a woman can wear.

I'm not baptist myself, so I can't confirm or deny it.

Is it true?

They are regularly for clothes.

[Displaced]

We all fall into a rut from time to time...but that doesn't mean God doesn't love us anymore, or that we were never really saved...it just means we allowed our flesh to take control, and got a little weak in the spirit...

.

Seems Paul rebuked Peter once for falling back to the law and let his flesh take control to appease the Jews at the time. Did Peter lose his salvation? No. He was rebuked by Paul to strengthen him and point out his error.

Well....Peter knew his error, but he needed reminding. Even Peter, the rock that Christ built his church upon, was a man struggling with sin.

Why would anyone think we today would be any different.

OSAS....IMHO....If a person is truly saved then he can't lose his salvation, but that doesn't mean every "profession of faith" and baptism brings about salvation. I don't know a person in the South that hasn't walked the isle and been baptized.

[Hadassah]

they are regularly for clothes.



:)) :)) :))

[Koushi Shinigami]

If one subscribes to osas or es and the belief is that one who falls away from salvation was never saved to begin with, HOW does someone know that they are truely saved and not just fooled by the emotion of the moment?

[Displaced]

If one subscribes to osas or es and the belief is that one who falls away from salvation was never saved to begin with, HOW does someone know that they are truely saved and not just fooled by the emotion of the moment?

The Bible speaks of a change of heart and a new person/creation in Christ. The teaching that "you will know them by there fruits" comes to mind. Not only for others but for yourself as an assurance of salvation. A Christian looks at his fruits to give himself assurance and stregthen his faith.

My favorite verse in the Bible is Hebrews 12:1-2

Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us also lay aside every weight, and sin which clings so closely, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us, 2 looking to Jesus, the founder and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is seated at the right hand of the throne of God.

[cbut1]

They are regularly for clothes.

:clap:

I love your humor it is so much like mine. ;)

[cbut1]

If one subscribes to osas or es and the belief is that one who falls away from salvation was never saved to begin with, HOW does someone know that they are truely saved and not just fooled by the emotion of the moment?



Bold is mine


That my friend is why such dramatizations (as we have discussed in another thread) are somewhat dangerous. Some react to the emotion the performace pulls out of us instead of our heart being Converted by Christ.

I just had to get that out. ;)

[RayMan]

My wife (a former catholic) seems to think that baptists restrict what kinds of clothing a woman can wear.

I'm not baptist myself, so I can't confirm or deny it.

Is it true?

That is more of an old school Pentecostal thing. Long sleeves, long dresses rather than pants, no jewelry or makeup. Very few groups like that left in Pentecost but it was common less than twenty years ago and still it in some parts of the country.

[cbut1]

My wife (a former catholic) seems to think that baptists restrict what kinds of clothing a woman can wear.

I'm not baptist myself, so I can't confirm or deny it.

Is it true?

There are some that put a good deal of emphasis on how one should be dressed for church and I know a few that say a preacher ought to always wear a suite and tie while preaching.

See God expects His people to come before Him offering their best see Cain and Able as a example. Ones best is going to vary from person to person (notice the different levels one was to offer for sacrifice in Israel) some who had the means could offer a goat others with less means could offer doves and still others could offer grains. These are still offering that God would honor if (and his is the key part) their heart was right and it was done in a proper fashion with the proper authority.

Now back to the clothes if a woman or man has a very nice dress (for the women) or suit & tie (for the men) and they come before God offering less than their best then He isn't going to be vary pleased. Now does a suit and tie automatically mean you are offering your best? No; it doesn't that is why with it ones heart must also be properly prepared.

Here is the clincher that some forget a suit makes no one Holy nor does a dress make anyone sanctified it is the inside (the heart) that God desires to be presented properly. Our external should be a reflection of that inside. I don't own a suit I never have besides what the military gave me, I own nice slacks and nice button up shirts with a few ties, is a man in Armani more righteous than I? He might be but it isn't because of the suit.

[cbut1]

That is more of an old school Pentecostal thing. Long sleeves, long dresses rather than pants, no jewelry or makeup. Very few groups like that left in Pentecost but it was common less than twenty years ago and still it in some parts of the country.


You could really tell who the pretty girls were when they had no makeup on and still one would go she is Hot.

[RayMan]

You could really tell who the pretty girls were when they had no makeup on and still one would go she is Hot.

Yeah, but on the other hand I know preacher who used to :
approach the makeup subject by saying:

"Even an old barn needs a fresh coat of paint now and then." ;)

[cbut1]

Tru dat tru dat

[vir doctus]

Now back to the clothes if a woman or man has a very nice dress (for the women) or suit & tie (for the men) and they come before God offering less than their best then He isn't going to be vary pleased.


I wonder if that means my husband should wear his dress whites with sword... :cool:

[CID_0687]

There are some that put a good deal of emphasis on how one should be dressed for church and I know a few that say a preacher ought to always wear a suite and tie while preaching.

See God expects His people to come before Him offering their best see Cain and Able as a example. Ones best is going to vary from person to person (notice the different levels one was to offer for sacrifice in Israel) some who had the means could offer a goat others with less means could offer doves and still others could offer grains. These are still offering that God would honor if (and his is the key part) their heart was right and it was done in a proper fashion with the proper authority.

Now back to the clothes if a woman or man has a very nice dress (for the women) or suit & tie (for the men) and they come before God offering less than their best then He isn't going to be vary pleased. Now does a suit and tie automatically mean you are offering your best? No; it doesn't that is why with it ones heart must also be properly prepared.

Here is the clincher that some forget a suit makes no one Holy nor does a dress make anyone sactified it is the inside (the heart) that God desires to be presented properly. Our external should be a refection of that inside. I don't own a suit I never have besides what the military gave me, I own nice slacks and nice button up shirts with a few ties, is a man in Armani more righteous than I? He might be but it isn't because of the suit.
But if I did own a nice suit, which I do, and showed up at church in blue jeans and a t-shirt, which I have, that doesn't make me any less of God's child, and it doesn't mean I have any less respect for God...come as you are. ;)

[RayMan]

I wonder if that means my husband should wear his dress whites with sword... :cool:

Reminds me of back in 1970 when I spent the summer in the lovely north eastern town of Newellton, Louisiana. Was staying with a buddy of mine whose father was the local SBC pastor.

Pastor got the town Sheriff mad because although he would let him attend services in his uniform he made him leave his sidearm in the police cruiser.

Don't know why. Dollars to donuts at least one of the Deacons was packin' heat.

[vir doctus]

...come as you are. ;)

Just as I am, without one plea...

[CID_0687]

Reminds me of back in 1970 when I spent the summer in the lovely north eastern town of Newellton, Louisiana. Was staying with a buddy of mine whose father was the local SBC pastor.

Pastor got the town Sheriff mad because although he would let him attend services in his uniform he made him leave his sidearm in the police cruiser.

Don't know why. Dollars to donuts at least one of the Deacons was packin' heat.
Good Lord man, if you consider Newellton LA the northeast, I'd hate to see what you consider the southeast. :mrgreen:

[CID_0687]

Just as I am, without one plea...
Altar call already?

[RayMan]

Good Lord man, if you consider Newellton LA the northeast, I'd hate to see what you consider the southeast. :mrgreen:

Hey it was like 38 years ago. Will google map and get back to you.

[RayMan]

Good Lord man, if you consider Newellton LA the northeast, I'd hate to see what you consider the southeast. :mrgreen:

It's more north east than anything else. Except maybe north central. Naw, more north east.

[CID_0687]

More northeast than say...I dunno...umm...Bangor Maine?

[RayMan]

More northeast than say...I dunno...umm...Bangor Maine?

Are you familiar with the points of the compass?

[CID_0687]

Are you familiar with the points of the compass?
Indeed I am sir...are you?

[RayMan]

Just hadda make me Wiki didn't ya, CID?

Newellton is a town in northern Tensas Parish in the northeastern part of the U.S. state of Louisiana. The population was 1,482 at the 2000 census. Newellton is 65 percent African American. It is just west of the Mississippi River on Lake St. Joseph, an ox-bow lake. Further south toward St. Joseph is Lake Bruin, another ox-bow lake, a part of which is the popular Lake Bruin State Park.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newellton,_Louisiana

[CID_0687]

Reminds me of back in 1970 when I spent the summer in the lovely north eastern town of Newellton, Louisiana.

See, I know what you mean...but when I think of a Lovely North Eastern Town places like Boston, and Baltimore come to mind...Louisiana, not so much. :D

[RayMan]

See, I know what you mean...but when I think of a Lovely North Eastern Town places like Boston, and Baltimore come to mind...Louisiana, not so much. :D

I should pm New Orleans Lady and GoodLife.

[CID_0687]

I should pm New Orleans Lady and GoodLife.
Why? To let them know you think they're yankees? I can't speak for NOL, but I don't think the lovely Miss Leigh would appreciate that very much.

just sayin' ©

sorry 'bout that

[buflineks]

Just hadda make me Wiki didn't ya, CID?

Maybe you should change your title to "Wiki-Pope"?


Just sayin.:mrgreen:

[MONGOOSE]

If one subscribes to osas or es and the belief is that one who falls away from salvation was never saved to begin with, HOW does someone know that they are truely saved and not just fooled by the emotion of the moment?

Not all who say "Lord, Lord" shall enter into the kingdom of heaven, but the Truth will set you free. There is a way to know but it is an idividual matter.
Revelation 2:17
He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it.

[RayMan]

Maybe you should change your title to "Wiki-Pope"?


Just sayin.:mrgreen:

Hmm, I will take that under advisement.

[Koushi Shinigami]

Not all who say "Lord, Lord" shall enter into the kingdom of heaven,


My reason for asking the question.




There is a way to know but it is an idividual matter.



"There's a way to know but I can't tell you what it is."

Not very helpful.

[MONGOOSE]

"There's a way to know but I can't tell you what it is."

Not very helpful.[/QUOTE]

Revelation 2:17
He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it.

[Koushi Shinigami]

K. I'll keep a lookout for that stone then....

[RayMan]

K. I'll keep a lookout for that stone then....

So, feeling enlightened yet? I gotta wait until after death and/or the Second Coming to get assurance of salvation?

I REALLY don't think that is what is being taught in Rev 2:17. Let's take a look at some scripture that actually addresses the subject.


1Jn 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

2Pe 1:1 Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:
2Pe 1:2 Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord,
2Pe 1:3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:
2Pe 1:4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

And to speak directly to the "he that overcometh" of Rev 2:17 let's see what John said in his first epistle.

1Jn 5:1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.
1Jn 5:2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
1Jn 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.
1Jn 5:4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.
1Jn 5:5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?

[Koushi Shinigami]

So, feeling enlightened yet? I gotta wait until after death and/or the Second Coming to get assurance of salvation?


Nope. So it would seem.


But to tell the truth, my expectations were not set high enough for me to feel disappointment at the responses.


Thanks for posting the scriptures. Don't have time to read them now. Will check them out later.

[MONGOOSE]

[QUOTE=RayMan;36521811]So, feeling enlightened yet? I gotta wait until after death and/or the Second Coming to get assurance of salvation?

I REALLY don't think that is what is being taught in Rev 2:17. Let's take a look at some scripture that actually addresses the subject.
[I


What is being taught?

What is being taught here?

Revelation 3
5He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

6He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

7And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth;

8I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name.

9Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.

10Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

11Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.

12Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.


I don't know what else it could be refering to. I'm sure I could have picked better scripture in the 1st place but that's what came to mind.

[RayMan]

I still don't think John is writing here that the believer cannot have assurance of salvation until after death or the Second Coming. Great promises for the overcomer, yes.

[vir doctus]

I still don't think John is writing here that the believer cannot have assurance of salvation until after death or the Second Coming. Great promises for the overcomer, yes.

Old self crucified, new self walking in Memphis (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XrT0gAbRqyw)... er, new life.

[cbut1]

Wow so many great people post here.

[cbut1]

I must say this thread is turning into one of my best as far as participation goes.

I thank all of you for that. :D

[5thIDSoldier]

But if I did own a nice suit, which I do, and showed up at church in blue jeans and a t-shirt, which I have, that doesn't make me any less of God's child, and it doesn't mean I have any less respect for God...come as you are. ;)

I dont think Jesus had a dress code for the sermon on the mount.

[CID_0687]

I dont think Jesus had a dress code for the sermon on the mount.
Which raises the question...If Jesus were to walk into some churches today dressed in his robe and sandals...long hair and beard, how long before the deacons escort him to the door?

I mean He might stain the carpet with those hippie shoes.

[MONGOOSE]

I still don't think John is writing here that the believer cannot have assurance of salvation until after death or the Second Coming. Great promises for the overcomer, yes.

So you are saying you can have assurance before death? If so we are in agreemant.

[RayMan]

So you are saying you can have assurance before death? If so we are in agreemant.

:hug:

[RayMan]

I must say this thread is turning into one of my best as far as participation goes.

I thank all of you for that. :D

I believe CID and I deserve most of the credit for that. IMHO of course. :mrgreen:




Oh wait, we're the ones who keep derailing it with jokes. Never mind.

[CID_0687]

I believe CID and I deserve most of the credit for that. IMHO of course. :mrgreen:




Oh wait, we're the ones who keep derailing it with jokes. Never mind.
Yeah, but if we weren't this thread would have died weeks ago...I mean really who wants to ask a Baptist?

:eek:

[RayMan]

Yeah, but if we weren't this thread would have died weeks ago...I mean really who wants to ask a Baptist?

:eek:

Ask one what now? ;)

[Koushi Shinigami]

What now?

[CID_0687]

Ask one what now? ;)
:mrgreen: :shhh:

[cbut1]

Yeah, but if we weren't this thread would have died weeks ago...I mean really who wants to ask a Baptist?

:eek:




:snooty:

[cbut1]

Ok folks what prevalent paragon of insight and wisdom are you needing clarification on?

[Koushi Shinigami]

Nothing.

[cbut1]

Nothing.


Ok since you asked.

Nothing is the opposite of something and it requires nothing to exist yet it's existence could not be understood with the presence of something with which to compare it to. :D





:)) Come on KS even you had to chuckle at that.

[Koushi Shinigami]

:neutral:

[Koushi Shinigami]

:razz:

[Koushi Shinigami]

:))

[RayMan]

I see somebody besides CID is padding their post count the easy way today.

[cbut1]

I see somebody besides CID is padding their post count the easy way today.

Give the guy a break he hasn't laughed like that in a couple of days.






:angel:

[RayMan]

Give the guy a break he hasn't laughed like that in a couple of days.
:angel:

I s'pose you're right. I will give him a break but only because.........















































It's FRIDAY!!! :dance:

[CID_0687]

:snooty:
:hug:

I kid I kid!

:))

[cbut1]

:hug:

I kid I kid!

:))



What about your young goat?

[noelle12]

What are some of the major differences between Missionary Baptists and Southern Baptist (and other Baptist denominations for that matter)? Thanks.

[outfromunder]

Which raises the question...If Jesus were to walk into some churches today dressed in his robe and sandals...long hair and beard, how long before the deacons escort him to the door?

I mean He might stain the carpet with those hippie shoes.

I remember this one time an old begger dressed in ratty clothes was sitting on the bench in front of the worship center. People kept their distance and avoided him. Finally a pair of Deacons approached and ran him off...

A while later during congregational singing, the old guy walked to the front of the sanctuary...you could have heard a pin drop when he started to take off the FAKE beard and Fake clothes to reveal my PASTOR was masquerading just to make a point in his rather POIGNANT sermon about reaching folks beyond our comfort zone...

[RayMan]

What are some of the major differences between Missionary Baptists and Southern Baptist (and other Baptist denominations for that matter)? Thanks.

One big thing was slavery. The northern baptists (American Baptist denomination) were against it. The "Southern" baptists not so much.

Southern Baptist Convention
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Southern Baptist Convention

The Southern Baptist Convention (SBC) is a United States-based, mostly conservative[1] Christian denomination. The name "Southern" stems from its having been founded and rooted in the South. The SBC became a separate denomination in 1845 in Augusta, Georgia, following a regional split with northern Baptists over the issue of slavery in the US South.

[RayMan]

Here is a list of Baptist denominations in North America. Don't let buf know I got this by googling "baptist wiki." Thanks.

North America

Canada
Association of Regular Baptist Churches
Atlantic Region Ministries
Baptist General Conference of Canada
Central Canada Baptist Conference
Canadian Baptist Ministries
Baptist Convention of Ontario and Quebec [13]
Baptist Union of Western Canada
Convention of Atlantic Baptist Churches
Union of French Baptist Churches of Canada (Union D'Églises Baptistes Françaises au Canada)
Canadian Convention of Southern Baptists
Covenanted Baptist Church of Canada
Fellowship of Evangelical Baptist Churches in Canada [14]
Landmark Missionary Baptist Association of Quebec (L'Association des Églises Missionnaire Baptiste Landmark du Québec)
Primitive Baptist Conference of New Brunswick, Maine and Nova Scotia
Seventh Day Baptist General Conference of the United States and Canada
Sovereign Grace Fellowship of Canada
Ukrainian Evangelical Baptist Convention of Canada
Union of Slavic Churches of Evangelical Christians and Slavic Baptists of Canada

Mexico
National Baptist Convention of Mexico (Convención Nacional Bautista de Mexico)

United States
Alliance of Baptists [15]
American Baptist Association
American Baptist Churches [16]
Association of Reformed Baptist Churches of America
Association of Welcoming and Affirming Baptists [17]
Baptist Bible Fellowship International
Baptist Bible Translators [18]
Baptist Churches Planting Ministry [19]
Baptist Foundation of Arizona
Baptist Fundamental Ministries for Jewish Evangelism [20]
Baptist General Conference
Baptist Missionary Association of America [21]
Baptist Peace Fellowship of North America
Black Primitive Baptists
Central Baptist Association
Christian Unity Baptist Association
Conservative Baptist Association of America
Continental Baptist Churches
Cooperative Baptist Fellowship [22]
Evangelical Free Baptist Church
Full Gospel Baptist Church Fellowship
Fundamental Baptist Fellowship Association
Fundamental Baptist Fellowship of America
General Association of Baptists
General Association of General Baptists
General Association of Regular Baptist Churches [23]
General Conference of the Evangelical Baptist Church, Inc.
General Six-Principle Baptists
Independent Baptist Church of America
Independent Baptist Fellowship International
Independent Baptist Fellowship of North America
Institutional Missionary Baptist Conference of America
Interstate & Foreign Landmark Missionary Baptist Association
Landmark Baptists
Liberty Baptist Fellowship
Macedonia Baptist World Missions [24]
Mainstream Baptist Network [25]
National Association of Free Will Baptists
National Baptist Convention of America, Inc.
National Baptist Convention, USA, Inc. [26]
National Baptist Evangelical Life and Soul Saving Assembly of the U.S.A.
National Missionary Baptist Convention of America
National Primitive Baptist Convention of the U.S.A.
New Testament Association of Independent Baptist Churches
North American Baptist Conference
Old Regular Baptist
Old Time Missionary Baptist
Original Free Will Baptist Convention
Primitive Baptist
Progressive National Baptist Convention
Reformed Baptist
Regular Baptist
Roger Williams Fellowship [27]
Separate Baptist
Separate Baptists in Christ
Seventh Day Baptist General Conference [28]
Southern Baptist Convention [29]
Southwide Baptist Fellowship
Sovereign Grace Baptists
Transforming MinistriesCalifornia American Baptist Split
Two-Seed-in-the-Spirit Predestinarian Baptists
United American Free Will Baptist Church
United American Free Will Baptist Conference
United Baptists
Unregistered Baptist Fellowship
Westboro Baptist Church
World Baptist Fellowship
Worldwide Baptist New Testament Missions [30]

[vir doctus]

Old Regular Baptist


Not supposed to read people's medical charts. :snooty:

[RayMan]

Not supposed to read people's medical charts. :snooty:



I am so glad I had swallowed before I opened this post. Easily the best post I have read today.

[doodle5]

Southern Baptist divided from liberal presbyterian from a book of Church History.

American Baptist stems from North Eastern Baptist convention. I belonged to one most Biblical and spiritual!! After Dr. Edson passed on dr. Kepner pulled away from the North Eastern convention.

Independent Baptist less works and Bible based.

Fundamental Baptist extreme radical.

Carlene

[RayMan]

Southern Baptist divided from liberal presbyterian from a book of Church History.

American Baptist stems from North Eastern Baptist convention. I belonged to one most Biblical and spiritual!! After Dr. Edson passed on dr. Kepner pulled away from the North Eastern convention.

Independent Baptist less works and Bible based.

Fundamental Baptist extreme radical.

Carlene

Hi Carlene.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triennial_Convention

[CID_0687]

I remember this one time an old begger dressed in ratty clothes was sitting on the bench in front of the worship center. People kept their distance and avoided him. Finally a pair of Deacons approached and ran him off...

A while later during congregational singing, the old guy walked to the front of the sanctuary...you could have heard a pin drop when he started to take off the FAKE beard and Fake clothes to reveal my PASTOR was masquerading just to make a point in his rather POIGNANT sermon about reaching folks beyond our comfort zone...
That's really sad.

I always like to joke and say I found Jesus at the liquor store. It was in a little storefront church two buildings down from the liquor store actually, in a part of town where most people from the East Side refused to go. I was more fortunate in my upbringing than most who were in that church...the local park where all the homeless people slept was about a block away from there. I guess you could call it a Skid Row church. Which was fitting for my situation at the time. I was homeless living drifting from one friends house to the other...many nights sleeping in my truck cause I had no place else to stay. It wasn't because anyone had done anything to me, it was what I had done myself...I won't go into all the details, I'll just say I had a fairly bad pain pill addiction and I would do whatever I needed to get my pills, even if it meant stealing from my family.

I walked into this church, and was immediately convicted...not only by what the pastor was saying and the songs that were being sung, but by the love that the people had towards me...Me, a guy from off the street that none of them, aside from my then girlfriend and her family, had ever even met before.

They wrapped their arms around me and treated me like I was their own...because I was.

That night I gave my heart to Jesus...I've had a few set backs along the way, but I've done my best.

Since then I've been in some of the most "popular" churches around, ministering, as well as some just like that little "Hole in the Wall"...and it's been my experience that the "outcasts" of society are some of the most genuine Christians you'd ever want to meet...They can't help but be humble.

Perhaps everyone should have to spend a couple of months out on the street to appreciate what they have...I don't wish it upon anyone, I've been there and, it ain't fun...but you learn a lot about humility.

[outfromunder]

That's really sad.

I always like to joke and say I found Jesus at the liquor store. It was in a little storefront church two buildings down from the liquor store actually, in a part of town where most people from the East Side refused to go. I was more fortunate in my upbringing than most who were in that church...the local park where all the homeless people slept was about a block away from there. I guess you could call it a Skid Row church. Which was fitting for my situation at the time. I was homeless living drifting from one friends house to the other...many nights sleeping in my truck cause I had no place else to stay. It wasn't because anyone had done anything to me, it was what I had done myself...I won't go into all the details, I'll just say I had a fairly bad pain pill addiction and I would do whatever I needed to get my pills, even if it meant stealing from my family.

I walked into this church, and was immediately convicted...not only by what the pastor was saying and the songs that were being sung, but by the love that the people had towards me...Me, a guy from off the street that none of them, aside from my then girlfriend and her family, had ever even met before.

They wrapped their arms around me and treated me like I was their own...because I was.

That night I gave my heart to Jesus...I've had a few set backs along the way, but I've done my best.

Since then I've been in some of the most "popular" churches around, ministering, as well as some just like that little "Hole in the Wall"...and it's been my experience that the "outcasts" of society are some of the most genuine Christians you'd ever want to meet...They can't help but be humble.

Perhaps everyone should have to spend a couple of months out on the street to appreciate what they have...I don't wish it upon anyone, I've been there and, it ain't fun...but you learn a lot about humility.

Agreed. BOLD TEXT MINE: When my kids are old enough, we will be taking mission trips to Mexico and other impoverished areas to minister. They need to see that there are areas in the world, and even nearby that need ministering beyond our sphere of influence. We are by no means affluent, but to those people with nothing, we are RICH...

[CID_0687]

Agreed. BOLD TEXT MINE: When my kids are old enough, we will be taking mission trips to Mexico and other impoverished areas to minister. They need to see that there are areas in the world, and even nearby that need ministering beyond our sphere of influence. We are by no means affluent, but to those people with nothing, we are RICH...
I haven't had the opportunity to go on a mission trip yet, though I would love to.

We've spent a lot of time in the poverty stricken areas of North Alabama though...The people really appreciate you, because they have the mentality that the world has lost hope in them, and they've lost hope in the world.

[outfromunder]

I haven't had the opportunity to go on a mission trip yet, though I would love to.

We've spent a lot of time in the poverty stricken areas of North Alabama though...The people really appreciate you, because they have the mentality that the world has lost hope in them, and they've lost hope in the world.

My kids have helped raise money during Vacation Bible schools for African mission projects like www.bloodwatermission.com and the shoe boxes for Operation Christmas Child for Samaritan's Purse, but to my kids, they have no real concept of where those funds and boxes go to...

I love to go on mission trips, but havent been on one for many years. My inlaws are in Rwanda right now doing medical missions. My father in law has been to Beijing, Cambodia, Rwanda, and Brazil just this last calender year alone.

[CID_0687]

My kids have helped raise money during Vacation Bible schools for African mission projects like www.bloodwatermission.com and the shoe boxes for Operation Christmas Child for Samaritan's Purse, but to my kids, they have no real concept of where those funds and boxes go to...

I love to go on mission trips, but havent been on one for many years. My inlaws are in Rwanda right now doing medical missions. My father in law has been to Beijing, Cambodia, Rwanda, and Brazil just this last calender year alone.
Man that's awesome.

And I agree, it will definitely help your kids to see who they are helping, and get to know them.

[outfromunder]

I can only speak for my convention, but in terms of Missions, SBC has definately made a large impact in the world. I would love to hear from other denominations about your outreach. Think Ill start a new thread...

[cbut1]

What are some of the major differences between Missionary Baptists and Southern Baptist (and other Baptist denominations for that matter)? Thanks.


Noelle

I would have to say that at one time there was no difference because the SBC was part of the General Baptists in the early stages of the country. That is until such a time as some division occured and as RayMan pointed out a component of that division was slavery. To give you a play by play breakdown of any particular difference it would be best to know what particular thing you would like me to cover.

Salvation
Baptism
Authority
Lord Supper

These are just a few things you can pick any of these or offer one that is a concern for you. I know that some in the SBC (persons like the Carters, and the Clintons) are espousing the idea of women pastors being allowed.

[cbut1]

Here is a list of Baptist denominations in North America. Don't let buf know I got this by googling "baptist wiki." Thanks.

North America

Canada
Association of Regular Baptist Churches
Atlantic Region Ministries
Baptist General Conference of Canada
Central Canada Baptist Conference
Canadian Baptist Ministries
Baptist Convention of Ontario and Quebec [13]
Baptist Union of Western Canada
Convention of Atlantic Baptist Churches
Union of French Baptist Churches of Canada (Union D'Églises Baptistes Françaises au Canada)
Canadian Convention of Southern Baptists
Covenanted Baptist Church of Canada
Fellowship of Evangelical Baptist Churches in Canada [14]
Landmark Missionary Baptist Association of Quebec (L'Association des Églises Missionnaire Baptiste Landmark du Québec)
Primitive Baptist Conference of New Brunswick, Maine and Nova Scotia
Seventh Day Baptist General Conference of the United States and Canada
Sovereign Grace Fellowship of Canada
Ukrainian Evangelical Baptist Convention of Canada
Union of Slavic Churches of Evangelical Christians and Slavic Baptists of Canada

Mexico
National Baptist Convention of Mexico (Convención Nacional Bautista de Mexico)

United States
Alliance of Baptists [15]
American Baptist Association
American Baptist Churches [16]
Association of Reformed Baptist Churches of America
Association of Welcoming and Affirming Baptists [17]
Baptist Bible Fellowship International
Baptist Bible Translators [18]
Baptist Churches Planting Ministry [19]
Baptist Foundation of Arizona
Baptist Fundamental Ministries for Jewish Evangelism [20]
Baptist General Conference
Baptist Missionary Association of America [21]
Baptist Peace Fellowship of North America
Black Primitive Baptists
Central Baptist Association
Christian Unity Baptist Association
Conservative Baptist Association of America
Continental Baptist Churches
Cooperative Baptist Fellowship [22]
Evangelical Free Baptist Church
Full Gospel Baptist Church Fellowship
Fundamental Baptist Fellowship Association
Fundamental Baptist Fellowship of America
General Association of Baptists
General Association of General Baptists
General Association of Regular Baptist Churches [23]
General Conference of the Evangelical Baptist Church, Inc.
General Six-Principle Baptists
Independent Baptist Church of America
Independent Baptist Fellowship International
Independent Baptist Fellowship of North America
Institutional Missionary Baptist Conference of America
Interstate & Foreign Landmark Missionary Baptist Association
Landmark Baptists
Liberty Baptist Fellowship
Macedonia Baptist World Missions [24]
Mainstream Baptist Network [25]
National Association of Free Will Baptists
National Baptist Convention of America, Inc.
National Baptist Convention, USA, Inc. [26]
National Baptist Evangelical Life and Soul Saving Assembly of the U.S.A.
National Missionary Baptist Convention of America
National Primitive Baptist Convention of the U.S.A.
New Testament Association of Independent Baptist Churches
North American Baptist Conference
Old Regular Baptist
Old Time Missionary Baptist
Original Free Will Baptist Convention
Primitive Baptist
Progressive National Baptist Convention
Reformed Baptist
Regular Baptist
Roger Williams Fellowship [27]
Separate Baptist
Separate Baptists in Christ
Seventh Day Baptist General Conference [28]
Southern Baptist Convention [29]
Southwide Baptist Fellowship
Sovereign Grace Baptists
Transforming MinistriesCalifornia American Baptist Split
Two-Seed-in-the-Spirit Predestinarian Baptists
United American Free Will Baptist Church
United American Free Will Baptist Conference
United Baptists
Unregistered Baptist Fellowship
Westboro Baptist Church
World Baptist Fellowship
Worldwide Baptist New Testament Missions [30]



If one was to analyze this list carefully they would find that many of these names are actually just different associations or assemblies that intermingle with one another already. For example the following are all associational groups of hundreds of different assemblies that in one way or another fellowship with each other:

American Baptist Association
Baptist General Conference
Baptist Missionary Association of America
Cooperative Baptist Fellowship
Interstate & Foreign Landmark Missionary Baptist Association
Landmark Baptists
Landmark Missionary Baptist
New Testament Association of Independent Baptist Churches
North American Baptist Conference
Old Regular Baptist
Old Time Missionary Baptist
Landmark Missionary Baptist Association of Quebec (L'Association des Églises Missionnaire Baptiste Landmark du Québec)
Southern Baptist Convention


One of the things that is so misunderstood about all these diffrent lists is that each assembly can choose to leave one association to join with another at any time. Can it affect their scripturality certainly it could but it doesn't automatically close the door on their New Testament Authority.

Here is another thing as an FYI here in California there is approximatly 75-100 American Baptist Associational Churches. These fellowship with about 55-75 Old California State Missioanry Baptist Associational Churches. Also with about 125-150 Independant Missionary Baptist Churches. I could go one but I think the point is made as Baptist it is a difficult thing to narrow down to one catagory based upon the name recognition. Our measures of authority and scripturality come from the Word of God and our tenacious adherence to the example Christ gave us. If one of our assemblies fall away from that example it harms that group but we as a whole still go forward.

[noelle12]

One big thing was slavery. The northern baptists (American Baptist denomination) were against it. The "Southern" baptists not so much.

Southern Baptist Convention
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Southern Baptist Convention

The Southern Baptist Convention (SBC) is a United States-based, mostly conservative[1] Christian denomination. The name "Southern" stems from its having been founded and rooted in the South. The SBC became a separate denomination in 1845 in Augusta, Georgia, following a regional split with northern Baptists over the issue of slavery in the US South.

So did the northern baptists become the Missionary Baptists? I am a little familiar with the Southern Baptists. (There is a large Southern Baptist Seminary in my town, and I played in their orchestra for several years.) But I don't hear much about the Missionary Baptists, and I was wondering about them.

I am fairly confident that 140 years after the Civil War that slavery is no longer the primary differentiation between the Southern and Northern Baptists. Are there other significant doctrinal differences?

[RayMan]

So did the northern baptists become the Missionary Baptists? I am a little familiar with the Southern Baptists. (There is a large Southern Baptist Seminary in my town, and I played in their orchestra for several years.) But I don't hear much about the Missionary Baptists, and I was wondering about them.

I am fairly confident that 140 years after the Civil War that slavery is no longer the primary differentiation between the Southern and Northern Baptists. Are there other significant doctrinal differences?


Northern = American Baptist. SBC is more conservative. Probably no really major doctrinal differences if you compare Statements of Faith.

[Koushi Shinigami]

Which raises the question...If Jesus were to walk into some churches today dressed in his robe and sandals...long hair and beard, how long before the deacons escort him to the door?

I mean He might stain the carpet with those hippie shoes.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c9VsF8sCGec

[noelle12]

Northern = American Baptist. SBC is more conservative. Probably no really major doctrinal differences if you compare Statements of Faith.

So are the Missionary Baptists the same as the American Baptists?

If there are no real differences between the different Baptist organizations, why are there so many? What is the organization of the Baptist church like?

[RayMan]

So are the Missionary Baptists the same as the American Baptists?

If there are no real differences between the different Baptist organizations, why are there so many? What is the organization of the Baptist church like?

Don't think so but cbut1 would be the one to address that.

[RayMan]

So are the Missionary Baptists the same as the American Baptists?

If there are no real differences between the different Baptist organizations, why are there so many? What is the organization of the Baptist church like?

Didn't say NO differences. Just no major doctrinal differences. Baptists are, unfortunately, famous for church splits.

Church government is generally autonomous and Congregational (i.e. vote on everything) though some aspects of Episcopalian (bishops) or Presbyterian (elders) governance come into play with some groups.

[noelle12]

Didn't say NO differences. Just no major doctrinal differences. Baptists are, unfortunately, famous for church splits.

Church government is generally autonomous and Congregational (i.e. vote on everything) though some aspects of Episcopalian (bishops) or Presbyterian (elders) governance come into play with some groups.

So what are some of the differences between the different Baptist organizations?

[RayMan]

So what are some of the differences between the different Baptist organizations?

Some believe in the absolute authority of the Bible as God's Word, some not so much.

Some are open to the Pentecostal/Charismatic expression of the gifts of the Spirit during services, some feel that stuff is alright is it just happens at a home Bible study, some will give the left foot of fellowship to anyone found to have Pentecostal tendencies.

Some take a very strong stance against what they consider to be "worldliness," dancing, smoking, drinking, etc. and will disfellowship anyone found to be involved in something along thoses lines. Some are more liberal in areas of that sort, taking a Rom 14 kind of view of things of that nature.

Some are strongly "King James and Recieved Text only," others will use NASB, NIV, RSV or just about any other modern translation.

Some have "closed communion" and when the first Sunday of the month rolls around and it is time to celebrate the Lord's Supper they will make it clear from the pulpit that if you are not a member of their fellowship and partake of communion you may well reap Paul's warning in 1 Cor 11.

NIV
1 Cor 11: 27Therefore, whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of sinning against the body and blood of the Lord. 28A man ought to examine himself before he eats of the bread and drinks of the cup. 29For anyone who eats and drinks without recognizing the body of the Lord eats and drinks judgment on himself. 30That is why many among you are weak and sick, and a number of you have fallen asleep. 31But if we judged ourselves, we would not come under judgment. 32When we are judged by the Lord, we are being disciplined so that we will not be condemned with the world.

In other words, "if you are not a member of our fellowship, God may judge you and kill you for partaking of communion with us."

This is the biggest problem I have with some denominations - not just baptist - because they teach the exact opposite of what Paul was teaching in 1 Cor 11. He was saying they weren't really celebrating the Lord's Supper because of the divisions among them and because the rich people were not recognizing the poorer folk as part of the same body of Christ.

Other Baptists churches are pleased as punch, or grape juice, to partake of communion with any believer in Christ that comes in the door and will make that clear before passing out the elements of communion.

These are some of the big issues between various Baptist denominations. For doctrinal differences I would suggest googling any of the groups mentioned earlier like this: "missionary baptist statement of faith" and then comparing the various group's stated beliefs.

cbut1, little help please. ;)

[CID_0687]

Some believe in the absolute authority of the Bible as God's Word, some not so much.

Some are open to the Pentecostal/Charismatic expression of the gifts of the Spirit during services, some feel that stuff is alright is it just happens at a home Bible study, some will give the left foot of fellowship to anyone found to have Pentecostal tendencies.

Some take a very strong stance against what they consider to be "worldliness," dancing, smoking, drinking, etc. and will disfellowship anyone found to be involved in something along thoses lines. Some are more liberal in areas of that sort, taking a Rom 14 kind of view of things of that nature.

Some are strongly "King James and Recieved Text only," others will use NASB, NIV, RSV or just about any other modern translation.

Some have "closed communion" and when the first Sunday of the month rolls around and it is time to celebrate the Lord's Supper they will make it clear from the pulpit that if you are not a member of their fellowship and partake of communion you may well reap Paul's warning in 1 Cor 11.

NIV
1 Cor 11: 27Therefore, whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of sinning against the body and blood of the Lord. 28A man ought to examine himself before he eats of the bread and drinks of the cup. 29For anyone who eats and drinks without recognizing the body of the Lord eats and drinks judgment on himself. 30That is why many among you are weak and sick, and a number of you have fallen asleep. 31But if we judged ourselves, we would not come under judgment. 32When we are judged by the Lord, we are being disciplined so that we will not be condemned with the world.

In other words, "if you are not a member of our fellowship, God may judge you and kill you for partaking of communion with us."

This is the biggest problem I have with some denominations - not just baptist - because they teach the exact opposite of what Paul was teaching in 1 Cor 11. He was saying they weren't really celebrating the Lord's Supper because of the divisions among them and because the rich people were not recognizing the poorer folk as part of the same body of Christ.

Other Baptists churches are pleased as punch, or grape juice, to partake of communion with any believer in Christ that comes in the door and will make that clear before passing out the elements of communion.

These are some of the big issues between various Baptist denominations. For doctrinal differences I would suggest googling any of the groups mentioned earlier like this: "missionary baptist statement of faith" and then comparing the various group's stated beliefs.

cbut1, little help please. ;)
I would also add that these beliefs don't only differ from denomination to denomination but also from one local church to the other. As Ray already pointed out Baptists have a loose form of government...the doctrine, for the most part, is the same within each sect, but things such as liberalness with Pentecostal worship can be accepted at one Southern Baptist Church, but drive a mile down the street and you're perceived as a heretic.

[RayMan]

I would also add that these beliefs don't only differ from denomination to denomination but also from one local church to the other. As Ray already pointed out Baptists have a loose form of government...the doctrine, for the most part, is the same within each sect, but things such as liberalness with Pentecostal worship can be accepted at one Southern Baptist Church, but drive a mile down the street and you're perceived as a heretic.

Excellent point CID. Thanks. With the combination of church autonomy and a congregational form of church government that is exactly what can and does happen.

[CID_0687]

Excellent point CID. Thanks. With the combination of church autonomy and a congregational form of church government that is exactly what can and does happen.
Not that there's anything wrong with that form of church government...many Pentecostal denominations use it as well.

:eek:

wrong thread

[RayMan]

Not that there's anything wrong with that form of church government...many Pentecostal denominations use it as well.

:eek:

wrong thread

Nothing at all wrong with Congregational rule. You can't make a clear cut case for any of the three main expressions of church government to the exclusion of the other two. I believe that if you put together everything Paul and Peter teach about the subject you will end up with a mixture of Congregational, Episcopal and Presbyterian styles.

Not the Episcopal or Presybeterian denominations. Many people don't realize that their names simply express their form of governance.

Episcopal - episkopos - Bishops
Presbyterian - presbuteros - Elders

[RayMan]

Not that there's anything wrong with that form of church government...many Pentecostal denominations use it as well.

:eek:

wrong thread


As I mentioned in either this or the Ask a Pentecostal thread, Pentecostals are closer to Baptists in many ways than to those from the Reformed tradition.

[CID_0687]

As I mentioned in either this or the Ask a Pentecostal thread, Pentecostals are closer to Baptists in many ways than to those from the Reformed tradition.
Very true, off the top of my head; Congregational Methodists have many similarities with the Pentecostals and Baptists as well.

[RayMan]

Very true, off the top of my head; Congregational Methodists have many similarities with the Pentecostals and Baptists as well.

Yep and the Methodists are not so much from the Reformed tradition. They came out of the Church of England.

[noelle12]

Thanks Ray and CID.

[RayMan]

Thanks Ray and CID.

Our pleasure cool little kid with shades. :cool:

[CID_0687]

Our pleasure cool little kid with shades. :cool:
What Ray said.

Mighty articulate for a toddler, noelle is.

[Koushi Shinigami]

Some believe in the absolute authority of the Bible as God's Word, some not so much.

Some ... Others...

Some ... Others...

Some ... Others...

Some... Others...


Some are happy when their youth put together a presentation on the impact Jesus has had on their lives. Others are upset that there was dancing in God's house.

[vir doctus]

Yep and the Methodists are not so much from the Reformed tradition.

If it walks like a reformed duck and talks like a reformed duck and looks like a reformed duck...

[noelle12]

What Ray said.

Mighty articulate for a toddler, noelle is.

You should hear the temper tantrums!

[RayMan]

If it walks like a reformed duck and talks like a reformed duck and looks like a reformed duck...

There is that of course. :mrgreen:

There is a lot of variance between Methodist churches in my experience. I was in a Christian band about 25 years when we were living just outside of Tulsa, OK.

We were booked to minister in song on Palm Sunday at a Methodist in Kansas City, KS in the morning and another Methodist church about 100 miles away in the evening.

The church we were at in the morning had the most tradition laden service I have ever experienced. EVERYTHING was in the bulleting including the fact the Sister So and So would emulate a bell ringing 3 times on the organ right after somebody did something else. I think we did one song.

Lovely Christian people though. Took us down to church basement after service and served up one of the best Covered Dish meals I can remember ever being at.

The church we were at that evening was totally different. We met in the fellowship hall with the Charismatic Contingent of the church, they handed the whole service over to us and we had a service with a decidedly Pentecostal flavor to it.

[RayMan]

Some are happy when their youth put together a presentation on the impact Jesus has had on their lives. Others are upset that there was dancing in God's house.

Hmmm. Could be. :whistle:

[RayMan]

What Ray said.

Mighty articulate for a toddler, noelle is.


Definitely gifted.

[CID_0687]

There is that of course. :mrgreen:

There is a lot of variance between Methodist churches in my experience. I was in a Christian band about 25 years when we were living just outside of Tulsa, OK.

We were booked to minister in song on Palm Sunday at a Methodist in Kansas City, KS in the morning and another Methodist church about 100 miles away in the evening.

The church we were at in the morning had the most tradition laden service I have ever experienced. EVERYTHING was in the bulleting including the fact the Sister So and So would emulate a bell ringing 3 times on the organ right after somebody did something else. I think we did one song.

Lovely Christian people though. Took us down to church basement after service and served up one of the best Covered Dish meals I can remember ever being at.

The church we were at that evening was totally different. We met in the fellowship hall with the Charismatic Contingent of the church, they handed the whole service over to us and we had a service with a decidedly Pentecostal flavor to it.
That's been my experience as well. There's a United Methodist Church that we've visited that reminds me of being in the Episcopal church.

But there's a Congregational Methodist church that I go sing at every year for their Christmas program, it's very much like being in a little country Baptist, or Pentecostal church. Really good food too.

When you say outside of Tulsa, wherebouts Ray?

[vir doctus]

There is that of course. :mrgreen:

There is a lot of variance between Methodist churches in my experience. I was in a Christian band about 25 years when we were living just outside of Tulsa, OK.



Our pre-CrazyLandia church was a Methodist church whose inspired pastor made the Pope look liberal. We miss him. (Not the Pope, we don't know him...)

[RayMan]

Our pre-CrazyLandia church was a Methodist church whose inspired pastor made the Pope look liberal. We miss him. (Not the Pope, we don't know him...)

Before my father passed he and my mom spent about 8 years traveling the country in their RV and were very active in a group called Campers for Christ. They made friends everywhere and visited many Methodist churches. My dad told me one time that there were many Methodist churches which had not gone liberal at all.

[cbut1]

So are the Missionary Baptists the same as the American Baptists?

If there are no real differences between the different Baptist organizations, why are there so many? What is the organization of the Baptist church like?

Which American Baptist? Are you asking about the American Baptist Association? If so Missionary Baptist are what make up the American Baptist association.

[CID_0687]

Which American Baptist? Are you asking about the American Baptist Association? If so Missionary Baptist are what make up the American Baptist association.
Those that are First Baptists are American Baptists too right?

[cbut1]

Those that are First Baptists are American Baptists too right?

Yes some are that is part of the problem of trying to narrow down any particular Baptist group.

[CID_0687]

Yes some are that is part of the problem of trying to narrow down any particular Baptist group.
My uncle is a Pastor in the ABA at a First Baptist church in West Virginia.

And all the ABA churches around here are First Baptists, that's why I asked.

Thanks cbut1

[noelle12]

Which American Baptist? Are you asking about the American Baptist Association? If so Missionary Baptist are what make up the American Baptist association.

I'm not really sure. My original question was "what are the differences between Southern Baptists and Missionary Baptists. I know a little about Southern Baptists, but not really anything about Missionary Baptists, and was trying to learn about that. The conversation morphed into Northern Baptists and American Baptists, and I was trying to find out if Missionary Baptists and American Baptists are the same thing.

[RayMan]

That's been my experience as well. There's a United Methodist Church that we've visited that reminds me of being in the Episcopal church.

But there's a Congregational Methodist church that I go sing at every year for their Christmas program, it's very much like being in a little country Baptist, or Pentecostal church. Really good food too.

When you say outside of Tulsa, wherebouts Ray?

Broken Arrow.

[vir doctus]

Broken Arrow.

You don't have to insult the guy. :naughty:

[RayMan]

Yes some are that is part of the problem of trying to narrow down any particular Baptist group.

Yep. I was talking about ABCUSA - America Baptist Churches USA. That was First Baptist in Richmond, CA for many decades. Most of both sides of my family went there for many years. My grandmother still does.

Wonderful ministry. A little less rigid than ABA IMO.

They have a nice succinct history of the Baptist faith in America including the split over slavery that birthed the Southern Baptist Church. Well worth the read.


-------------------------------------------------
Origins of American Baptist Organization
The issue of slavery reached a peak in 1845 when the American Baptist Foreign
Mission Society determined that it could not appoint any candidate for service who held
slaves and when the American Baptist Home Mission Society decided separate
northern and southern conventions were necessary. The Southern Baptist Convention
was formed in response.
http://www.abc-usa.org/whoweare/ourhistory/history.aspx

[buflineks]

Broken Arrow.

My sister lived in Broken Arrow about 5 years ago.

What's the name of that little burger shop that serves those killer burgers?

It's about 2 mi's from the CINTAS facility.

[RayMan]

My sister lived in Broken Arrow about 5 years ago.

What's the name of that little burger shop that serves those killer burgers?

It's about 2 mi's from the CINTAS facility.

Dude, that was 1980-81. B.A. was still a little hick town then. A couple years after we left it became the fastest growing city in the U.S. and is huge compared to when we were there.

There was a really nice Baptist church we ALMOST became members of. They had a Charismatic contingent and didn't mind our Pentecostal ways at all. Ended up at Victory Christian Center with Pastor Billy Joe Daugherty instead. Great church. Grew from 800 to 2000 in the eight months we attended.

[cbut1]

I'm not really sure. My original question was "what are the differences between Southern Baptists and Missionary Baptists. I know a little about Southern Baptists, but not really anything about Missionary Baptists, and was trying to learn about that. The conversation morphed into Northern Baptists and American Baptists, and I was trying to find out if Missionary Baptists and American Baptists are the same thing.



Ok here is one difference that NOW seperates Southen Baptist Churches (not all but most) from Missionary Baptist Churches.

Baptism is done by the authority of the assembly to one whom has willingly come forward confessing Christ as their Savior, It is complete immersion only. Anoyone who comes forward with a testimony of Salvation but was baptised into another denomination (such as Pentecostal, Catholic, Lutheran for examples) Missionary Baptist do not recognize those baptisms as valid or binding for we do not believe these assemblies have the authority from Christ to do so. Southern Baptist held this perspective for many decades after splitting with the Northern Baptist but have in the last 50 yrs been more accepting of others baptism. As such they have ceased to exist in our perspective as Valid scriptural assemblies no more or no less than any other group that roams this great land.

Let me also state that there is valid reason to judge this from assembly to assembly because there are some in the SBC that still hold to the proper mode of Baptism no exceptions. This is one of the reasons why we say it is hard to narrow down one group as being the valid True Baptist line.

[CID_0687]

Broken Arrow.
Whoa really? My uncle lives in Coweta, which is just down the road from Broken Arrow. I know exactly where you were then.

In fact, back in my wild and woolly days my cousin and I were escorted out of pool hall in Broken Arrow, for being "drunk and disorderly".

Me being drunk and disorderly, can you believe that?

[Reeder]

Whoa really? My uncle lives in Coweta, which is just down the road from Broken Arrow. I know exactly where you were then.

In fact, back in my wild and woolly days my cousin and I were escorted out of pool hall in Broken Arrow, for being "drunk and disorderly".

Me being drunk and disorderly, can you believe that?

No, but I do believe that your father was killed by ninjas.

[RayMan]

No, but I do believe that your father was killed by ninjas.

Then send him a PayPal for the karate lessons.

[CID_0687]

Then send him a PayPal for the karate lessons.
Paid for by the committee to get CID karate lessons.

[5thIDSoldier]

Yes some are that is part of the problem of trying to narrow down any particular Baptist group.

Yeah, I think there are about 73 different types if I remember right.

[noelle12]

Ok here is one difference that NOW seperates Southen Baptist Churches (not all but most) from Missionary Baptist Churches.

Baptism is done by the authority of the assembly to one whom has willingly come forward confessing Christ as their Savior, It is complete immersion only. Anyone who comes forward with a testimony of Salvation but was baptized into another denomination (such as Pentecostal, Catholic, Lutheran for examples) Missionary Baptist do not recognize those baptisms as valid or binding for we do not believe these assemblies have the authority from Christ to do so. Southern Baptist held this perspective for many decades after splitting with the Northern Baptist but have in the last 50 yrs been more accepting of others baptism. As such they have ceased to exist in our perspective as Valid scriptural assemblies no more or no less than any other group that roams this great land.

Let me also state that there is valid reason to judge this from assembly to assembly because there are some in the SBC that still hold to the proper mode of Baptism no exceptions. This is one of the reasons why we say it is hard to narrow down one group as being the valid True Baptist line.

Thanks cbut1.

Since each congregation is autonomous, is it likely that one congregation holds doctrinal beliefs that are in conflict with other congregations? If so, does that cause problems? I know that the Westboro Baptist Church does things that I'm quite certain most other Baptists condemn. Is it the desire of other Baptist congregations that they do not use the term "Baptist" in the name of their church?

[Koushi Shinigami]

Thanks cbut1.

Since each congregation is autonomous, is it likely that one congregation holds doctrinal beliefs that are in conflict with other congregations? If so, does that cause problems? I know that the Westboro Baptist Church does things that I'm quite certain most other Baptists condemn. Is it the desire of other Baptist congregations that they do not use the term "Baptist" in the name of their church?

It might be other churchs' desire. It's not within their authority though.

[CID_0687]

Ok here is one difference that NOW seperates Southen Baptist Churches (not all but most) from Missionary Baptist Churches.

Baptism is done by the authority of the assembly to one whom has willingly come forward confessing Christ as their Savior, It is complete immersion only. Anoyone who comes forward with a testimony of Salvation but was baptised into another denomination (such as Pentecostal, Catholic, Lutheran for examples) Missionary Baptist do not recognize those baptisms as valid or binding for we do not believe these assemblies have the authority from Christ to do so. Southern Baptist held this perspective for many decades after splitting with the Northern Baptist but have in the last 50 yrs been more accepting of others baptism. As such they have ceased to exist in our perspective as Valid scriptural assemblies no more or no less than any other group that roams this great land.

Let me also state that there is valid reason to judge this from assembly to assembly because there are some in the SBC that still hold to the proper mode of Baptism no exceptions. This is one of the reasons why we say it is hard to narrow down one group as being the valid True Baptist line.
Seems to me that these SBC churches have it right.

With permission from the Pentecostal Pope

just sayin' ©

sorry 'bout that

[CID_0687]

Thanks cbut1.

Since each congregation is autonomous, is it likely that one congregation holds doctrinal beliefs that are in conflict with other congregations? If so, does that cause problems? I know that the Westboro Baptist Church does things that I'm quite certain most other Baptists condemn. Is it the desire of other Baptist congregations that they do not use the term "Baptist" in the name of their church?
I think that the convention can NOT recognize them, and strip them of any convention benefits...but the church can then be an Independent entity...and if they choose to still be called Baptists, there's nothing that can be done about that.

[Koushi Shinigami]

I'm not really sure. My original question was "what are the differences between Southern Baptists and Missionary Baptists.


Must


Resist


Urge


To


Quip



About




Position.....

[scipio337]

Any Oklahomans know the affiliation of the Kiamichi Mountains Christian Mission (I also think it was called "Christ's 40 Acres") near Honobia? Not sure if it's Baptist, but saw the OK posting, and thought I'd ask.

[CID_0687]

Any Oklahomans know the affiliation of the Kiamichi Mountains Christian Mission (I also think it was called "Christ's 40 Acres") near Honobia? Not sure if it's Baptist, but saw the OK posting, and thought I'd ask.
They're affiliated with the Christian Church/Church of Christ

[cbut1]

Thanks cbut1.

Since each congregation is autonomous, is it likely that one congregation holds doctrinal beliefs that are in conflict with other congregations? If so, does that cause problems? I know that the Westboro Baptist Church does things that I'm quite certain most other Baptists condemn. Is it the desire of other Baptist congregations that they do not use the term "Baptist" in the name of their church?

That is correct my dear.

[cbut1]

It might be other churchs' desire. It's not within their authority though.

Correct

[5thIDSoldier]

I have often wondered why (in situations like the Westboro crowd) we dont have some sort of unified authority to make sure whacko nut job groups like that cannot use the name Baptist. It really makes the rest of us look bad.

[vir doctus]

I have often wondered why (in situations like the Westboro crowd) we dont have some sort of unified authority to make sure whacko nut job groups like that cannot use the name Baptist. It really makes the rest of us look bad.

Luther asked that NO ONE use his name - whole bunch of whack jobs not complying.

[Koushi Shinigami]

I have often wondered why (in situations like the Westboro crowd) we dont have some sort of unified authority to make sure whacko nut job groups like that cannot use the name Baptist. It really makes the rest of us look bad.

That is correct.

[RayMan]

Seems to me that these SBC churches have it right.

With permission from the Pentecostal Pope

just sayin' ©

sorry 'bout that

Why? Just because that post seems to imply that nobody outside of the Missionary Baptist group has the authority to baptize, meaning that cbut1 is the only one here on the forum who has a valid baptism?

Kinda small of you CID...:mrgreen:

I would think that the Catholics and Mormons might be a little miffed, but not a Pentecostal. :naughty:

[CID_0687]

Why? Just because that post seems to imply that nobody outside of the Missionary Baptist group has the authority to baptize, meaning that cbut1 is the only one here on the forum who has a valid baptism?

Kinda small of you CID...:mrgreen:

I would think that the Catholics and Mormons might be a little miffed, but not a Pentecostal. :naughty:
You would think so wouldn't you?

However, can I say that a Catholic is wrong, or a Methodist or a Baptist or an Episcopalian or a Lutheran or...do I really need to go on?

There's a rule of thumb I like to follow.

Does the denomination follow the Bible? Do they believe that Jesus is the Son of God, who died for the remission of our sins and on the third day rose again?

Are the people doing their best to live their life according to Jesus and the writers of the New Testament example in the Bible?

If the answer to these questions is yes then I say they are a Christian, I say that their Baptism is valid.

Now I personally, was baptized in the Episcopal church when I was 11 years old...It was a private ceremony, just my parents, the Priest and myself...I was sprinkled.

After becoming a Pentecostal and studying on Baptism I saw that full immersion is what is meant by Baptism. Then I was Baptized in the Pentecostal church, when I was 20.

But either one would be valid because both were done in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

[RayMan]

Sez you and me.

Some groups feels otherwise. I don't let it slow me down one bit.

[CID_0687]

Sez you and me.

Some groups feels otherwise. I don't let it slow me down one bit.
Nor do I. Keep on truckin'!

[cbut1]

Why? Just because that post seems to imply that nobody outside of the Missionary Baptist group has the authority to baptize, meaning that cbut1 is the only one here on the forum who has a valid baptism?

Kinda small of you CID...:mrgreen:

I would think that the Catholics and Mormons might be a little miffed, but not a Pentecostal. :naughty:

I am certain there are other Baptist here that have valid Baptism in accordance with what I have described. Shoot if I uderstood you correctly at one time you did as well.


If one looks back through our history they will find that the BIGGEST bone of contention between True Baptist and all others has been Baptism. The Catholic Church ancestry and Baptist ancestry have fought over this issue for nearly 2 millenia now.

[CID_0687]

I am certain there are other Baptist here that have valid Baptism in accordance with what I have described. Shoot if I uderstood you correctly at one time you did as well.


If one looks back through our history they will find that the BIGGEST bone of contention between True Baptist and all others has been Baptism. The Catholic Church ancestry and Baptist ancestry have fought over this issue for nearly 2 millenia now.
But isn't that squabble normally over the Dunking vs. Sprinkling methods?

[RayMan]

I don't know if we'll be inflamed...

We might laugh, though...:whistle:

:razz:

Flaming Catholics? That's a thread in itself...:mrgreen:

[vir doctus]

I am certain there are other Baptist here that have valid Baptism in accordance with what I have described.


The only thing that would constitute an 'invalid' baptism would be in not using the words of our Lord. I challenge anyone to make a cogent argument that hundreds of millions of people who received baptism as an infant or with less than a dunking have NOT received the Spirit of God. God's Word has more power than the machinations of man.

[Hadassah]

I am certain there are other Baptist here that have valid Baptism in accordance with what I have described. Shoot if I uderstood you correctly at one time you did as well.


If one looks back through our history they will find that the BIGGEST bone of contention between True Baptist and all others has been Baptism. The Catholic Church ancestry and Baptist ancestry have fought over this issue for nearly 2 millenia now.

Except the Baptists haven't been around for "nearly 2 millenia". :mrgreen:


(Sorry, cbut, but since I am a history-geek-in-training, you knew that I HAD to say something about the history. :mrgreen: )

[vir doctus]

Except the Baptists haven't been around for "nearly 2 millenia". :mrgreen:


(Sorry, cbut, but since I am a history-geek-in-training, you knew that I HAD to say something about the history. :mrgreen: )

Well, some strange groups have been around for quite a while, I am just not sure why Baptists want to associate themselves with those groups.

[Hadassah]

Well, some strange groups have been around for quite a while, I am just not sure why Baptists want to associate themselves with those groups.


See, cbut? Even the Queen Geek Historian agrees. :mrgreen:

Thank you, milady. ***curtsy***

[buflineks]

Well, some strange groups have been around for quite a while, I am just not sure why Baptists want to associate themselves with those groups.

Perhaps the answer lies in the writtings of J.R. Graves and A.C. Dayton.

Of course, you could also look at J.M. Pendleton or G.H. Orchard.

[vir doctus]

Perhaps the answer lies in the writtings of J.R. Graves and A.C. Dayton.

Of course, you could also look at J.M. Pendleton or G.H. Orchard.
:naughty: Snob doesn't work so well on you. Please resist the urge to be professorial.

[vir doctus]

Thank you, milady. ***curtsy***

I appreciate your ability to spell, we were one letter away from a cat fight. :mrgreen:

[Hadassah]

:)) :)) :))


vir, you have me rolling on the floor, LMBO!!!!!


:hug:

[RayMan]

I am certain there are other Baptist here that have valid Baptism in accordance with what I have described. Shoot if I uderstood you correctly at one time you did as well.


If one looks back through our history they will find that the BIGGEST bone of contention between True Baptist and all others has been Baptism. The Catholic Church ancestry and Baptist ancestry have fought over this issue for nearly 2 millenia now.

At one time? Did it's validity expire when I became Pentecostal? ;)

[RayMan]

I appreciate your ability to spell, we were one letter away from a cat fight. :mrgreen:


I've always thought of you as more nerdy than geeky, but I never disagree with Hadassah. Don't want to be introduced to Guido.

[vir doctus]

:)) :)) :))


vir, you have me rolling on the floor, LMBO!!!!!


:hug:
:hug:

[5thIDSoldier]

The only thing that would constitute an 'invalid' baptism would be in not using the words of our Lord. I challenge anyone to make a cogent argument that hundreds of millions of people who received baptism as an infant or with less than a dunking have NOT received the Spirit of God. God's Word has more power than the machinations of man.

Really? I have never read of an infant being baptised in the scripture......

Besides, infants (as I understand it) are not in need of baptism since they have not reached the age of accountability.....

[vir doctus]

Besides, infants (as I understand it) are not in need of baptism since they have not reached the age of accountability.....

Where is that age of accountability in the Bible or in tradition or in history?

[5thIDSoldier]

Where is that age of accountability in the Bible or in tradition or in history?

The knoweldge of right and wrong..gee lets see:

Lets start with the Garden of Eden and the tree of such knowledge.

[Koushi Shinigami]

The knoweldge of right and wrong..gee lets see:

Lets start with the Garden of Eden and the tree of such knowledge.

I think Vir's question was more along the lines of: "What is age does the Bible say is the age of accountability?"

[cbut1]

At one time? Did it's validity expire when I became Pentecostal? ;)

Some Baptists would say yes some would not.

[cbut1]

But isn't that squabble normally over the Dunking vs. Sprinkling methods?

Also over infant vrs. a willing confessor.

Also authority to administer Baptism vrs. no authority.

[vir doctus]

The knoweldge of right and wrong..gee lets see:

Lets start with the Garden of Eden and the tree of such knowledge.

So you are saying that Adam and Eve reached a certain age and they then became accountable for their actions, had they disobeyed God a few days before everything would have been copacetic? :eh:

[cbut1]

The only thing that would constitute an 'invalid' baptism would be in not using the words of our Lord. I challenge anyone to make a cogent argument that hundreds of millions of people who received baptism as an infant or with less than a dunking have NOT received the Spirit of God. God's Word has more power than the machinations of man.



I accept the challenge my dear friend, I will work on that later tonight and perhaps have it ready for tomorrow. Of course this will be based upon Baptist understanding of scripture.




P.S. The wife and I have sent you somthing in the mail, your gift has been received and is being enjoyed by me greatly so far.

[5thIDSoldier]

So you are saying that Adam and Eve reached a certain age and they then became accountable for their actions, had they disobeyed God a few days before everything would have been copacetic? :eh:

No. And sorry, I didnt mean to sound so dogmatic. I was saying the principle of knowledge of good and evil has it's start in the Garden with the original sin.

[cbut1]

Except the Baptists haven't been around for "nearly 2 millenia". :mrgreen:


(Sorry, cbut, but since I am a history-geek-in-training, you knew that I HAD to say something about the history. :mrgreen: )

Your right as the name has been applied but only as the name has been applied. Outside of the Baptist work is how we keep getting identified (Novatians, Petrobrussians, Paulicans, etc etc etc; we've covered the names before) but inside the Baptist work we have always identified ourselves as New Testament Churches.



You see as I have gone through in just the last few pages the name Baptist is so broadly used that it is difficult to distinguish who is really a Baptist and who is a poser, by just the name. It has been the same with every other name that has been atributed to us. Interesting that nothing new under the sun stands true here also.

[cbut1]

Perhaps the answer lies in the writtings of J.R. Graves and A.C. Dayton.

Of course, you could also look at J.M. Pendleton or G.H. Orchard.

Well respected men in the Baptist ranks.

[cbut1]

Where is that age of accountability in the Bible or in tradition or in history?

It is a generalized point of time for each individual to have the ability to understand general right and wrong. For one person it may be as low as 8 yrs of age for others it might be 12-15. It is not a doctrine but a human trait that has been observed through time. Since scripture does say that one must come confessing Christ as Lord and Savior to be saved then an infant cannot do that but someone in their teens could. But that starts going into the challenge that I accepted from you and will stop right here for now.



P.S. I have challeged the whole age of accountability concept that does for some become a sticky point in Baptist work. I'll explain that in the answer to your challenge.

[RayMan]

Some Baptists would say yes some would not.

This makes my brain hurt. :doh:

[CID_0687]

This makes my brain hurt. :doh:
You too huh?

[vir doctus]

Since scripture does say that one must come confessing Christ as Lord and Savior to be saved then an infant cannot do that but someone in their teens could.


Bum deal for all the mutes in the world. :rolleyes:

Why is it that people limit God's ability to interact with His children?

[vir doctus]

No. And sorry, I didnt mean to sound so dogmatic. I was saying the principle of knowledge of good and evil has it's start in the Garden with the original sin.

John knew right in utero. Now what?