The Messenger and his times, Muhammad

[The Bos'un]

Just started week one of a five week informational study of Islam, taught by the provost of a University in my area.

The class started out briskly, about 80 students. This was a brief overview introduction that helped know his story.

The provost set about the Christian approach to studying the history of Islam through respect, accuracy, and graciousness, and to an understanding of Islam from a Muslim prospective. During this course of study we will be bracketing the supernatural and search for meaning.

The provost said that one could study what a person says that they believe or know the story of the person and probably come up with a better understanding into the hows and whys if you understood where he is coming from and some of the significant events.

Tonight we covered the basic Muslim beliefs':

1. Monotheism, the one G_d concept and that Muhammad and his followers were down on Christians because of the Trinity. It appears that some do not believe Christianity is a true Monotheistic religion because of the trinity conflict.

2. G_d is omnipotent

3. G_d broke in to human history at a specific time, through Muhammad's recitations, to provide an authoritive guide to his will.

One could agree that Muhammad, the proclaimed Messenger of Islam, was charismatic, a motivator, and took over the Arabian area within 20 years from start to finish. His aggressive use of the sword and talks of peace united the Arab Peninsula under one religion.

[The Bos'un]

Muhammad was orphaned at a young age and was brought up under the care of his uncle. He later worked mostly as a merchant, and was first married to Khadija, a rich widower, at the age of 25. Discontented with life in Mecca and the polytheistic believes of the Arabs, he retreated to a cave in the surrounding mountains for meditation and reflection. Some say in the companion of a Zoroastrian elder.

You see the Mecca was a trade route cross roads in the desert. The Kaaba, was a pagan worship site which honored about 360 gods. It was a far cry from the Kaaba of today, the most revered site of islam where Muslims face five times a day to pay respect and prayers to their god.

Muhammad spent time with Christians, Jews, and Zoroastrians who embraced monotheism. Some say that Muhammad may have been converted at an early age, but, later covered the conversion when he started receiving recitation from whom Khadija was convinced, the Archangel Gabriel in the year 610.

Muhammad started preaching that G_d was one and embraced stories of Adam, Noah, Abraham, Moses, David, Jesus and other prophets with his twist of Islam.


For the next three years, his wealthy uncle, Abu Talib, an influential elder was able to protect him and smooth things over with the Meccans. After Abu Talib's death, Muhammad wore out his welcome in Mecca as he talked of doing away with all pagan worship except for allah.


We discussed some of the order of the Qur'an, which incidentally is not in order but, arranged from the longest Surahs to the shortest Surahs.

I would encourage you to read the surahs mentioned in this post. You can read them on-line at:http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/


An advantage of the USC site, it is the University of Southern California and has three translations from the three most widely used Qur'an translations.



It is believed that Qur'an Surah 96 is the first recitation.


During Muhammad's opposition in Mecca before his expulsion and Hijra to Yathrib (Medina) Muhammad received Surah 50. His tone changed slightly from Surah 96 to Surah 50 and he took on a more critical stance toward those who opposed him.


When he was expelled from Mecca to Medina, he received Surah 57, which took the tone that Islam superseded both Christianity and Judaism. (read verses 25 - 29 closely).


When he retook Mecca and thereby legitimatized his base and the Kaaba, he received Surah 48. Muhammad achieved total trump over Mecca in the year 630. Two years later, he died suddenly.


The internal struggle between the Sunni and Shia started for who was to control the legacy of Muhammad. Abu Bakr became the first Khalifa after Muhammad's untimely demise.

Khalifa is an Arabic word literally meaning "one who replaces someone else who left or died" (English: caliph). In the context of Islam, however, the word acquires a narrower meaning. The Muslim Khalifa is the successor (in a line of successors) to Prophet Muhammad's position as the political, military, and administrative leader of the Muslims. The prophetic role of Muhammad is strictly not included in this definition, as the Qur'an and Hadith clearly state that Muhammad was the last of the prophets. Khilafa is a related Arabic word which, in the context of Islam, is used to denote the government of the Muslim state, of which the Khalifa is the head. A workable analogy of Khalifa and Khilafa is president and presidency or king and monarchy. The Khilafa is a fard kifaya on the ummah.

[The Bos'un]

Some highlights of week 1: The year 610 was the first recitation and by the year 630, Muhammad sealed the deal on the peninsula. Arabia was surrounded by more successful cultures of Christianity, Judaism, and Zoroastrianism which influenced Muhammad and lead to him searching for an Arab Cultural Identity to replace to paganism of the day. Muhammad wanted to enhance the Ummah and achieve an enhanced cultural identity.

He claimed that the Kaaba was originally built by Adam and restored by Abraham and Ismael. Muhammad and Islam discounts any credence to Abraham and Issac.

Muhammad and Islam suffered great insult at the status of Issac above Ismael. This may have been one of the main corruptions of the Torah and Christian Bible that is mentioned in the Qur'an.

I will try to post updates for each of the next five weeks and of course, please post your comments, observations, and opinions, too.

I would like this to be more of a study of Islam, rather than a free for all ping on the religion. We can draw some conclusions at the close of five weeks.

[The Bos'un]

Week two of the five week Muslim Believers class.

Muhammad died unexpectedly two years after he sealed the deal with Mecca in the arms of his (15 year old not 18 year old) favorite wife, Aisha. It should have been 15, as 9 years had passed after Muhammad betrothed her. Muhammad died when he was 62 years old. ( I may have unintentionally made it unclear about Aisha's age from my notes.) Remember: Tabari VII:7 “ The Prophet married Aisha in Mecca three years before the Hijrah, after the death of Khadija. At the time she was six.” Ishaq:281 “ When the Apostle came to Medina he was fifty-three .” Tabari VII:6 “ In May, 623 A.D./A.H. 1, Allah’s Messenger consummated his marriage to Aisha.”

From 632 - 692 there were early expansions and civil strife among the Mohammedans.

The order of the early caliphs:

When Muhammad died, there was no established rules of secession. Abu Baker stepped up and by popular acclaim declared himself the sessor of Muhammad. His Caliphate lasted 2 years, 632 - 634. Then came Umar ibn al-Khattab 634 - 644. Umar and Abu had a strong working relationship.

Uthman ibn Affan was next 644 - 656, He was assassinated due to perceived corruptions and his work to finalize the scribing of the official Qur'an.

Ali ibn Talib was next, 656-661. He was noted as the earliest convert to Muhammad's preaching in Medina. He was also assassinated for compromises and not sticking with the faith.

As you can see this religion of peace was off to a poor start with wars, rumors of wars, and assassinations left and right.

But, this linage ushered in the creation of the Islamic civilization (spread by the sword) 700 - 950.

By 750 Mohammedans controlled Spain and much of the Mediterranean to the Indus River to Turkey; a far cry different than the polytheistic Arab peninsula surrounded by three monotheistic religions when Muhammad started his quest.

Islam used the carrot and the stick to spread Islam; a little tender care and the sword.

[The Bos'un]

We should talk a little about the Pact of Umar. After the rapid expansion of Mohammedan domination in the 7th century, Muslim leaders were required to work out a way of dealing with the non Muslims, who remained the majoring in many areas of the Islamic empire. The solution was to develop a notion of the Dhimma or protected person. The Dhimmi were required to pay Jizya (tax) to remain hopefully unmolested.



We heard from 'Abd al-Rahman ibn Ghanam [died 78/697] as follows: When Umar ibn al-Khattab, may God be pleased with him, accorded a peace to the Christians of Syria, we wrote to him as follows:

In the name of God, the Merciful and Compassionate. This is a letter to the servant of God Umar , Commander of the Faithful, from the Christians of such-and-such a city. When you came against us, we asked you for safe-conduct (aman) for ourselves, our descendants, our property, and the people of our community, and we undertook the following obligations toward you:

We shall not build, in our cities or in their neighborhood, new monasteries, Churches, convents, or monks' cells, nor shall we repair, by day or by night, such of them as fall in ruins or are situated in the quarters of the Muslims.

We shall keep our gates wide open for passersby and travelers.

We shall give board and lodging to all Muslims who pass our way for three days.

We shall not give shelter in our churches or in our dwellings to any spy, nor bide him from the Muslims.

We shall not teach the Qur'an to our children.

We shall not manifest our religion publicly nor convert anyone to it.

We shall not prevent any of our kin from entering Islam if they wish it.

We shall show respect toward the Muslims, and we shall rise from our seats when they wish to sit.

We shall not seek to resemble the Muslims by imitating any of their garments, the qalansuwa, the turban, footwear, or the parting of the hair. We shall not speak as they do, nor shall we adopt their kunyas.

We shall not mount on saddles, nor shall we gird swords nor bear any kind of arms nor carry them on our- persons.

We shall not engrave Arabic inscriptions on our seals.

We shall not sell fermented drinks.

We shall clip the fronts of our heads.

We shall always dress in the same way wherever we may be, and we shall bind the zunar round our waists

We shall not display our crosses or our books in the roads or markets of the Muslims. We shall use only clappers in our churches very softly. We shall not raise our voices when following our dead.

We shall not show lights on any of the roads of the Muslims or in their markets. We shall not bury our dead near the Muslims.

We shall not take slaves who have beenallotted to Muslims.

We shall not build houses overtopping the houses of the Muslims.

(When I brought the letter to Umar, may God be pleased with him, he added, "We shall not strike a Muslim.") We accept these conditions for ourselves and for the people of our community, and in return we receive safe-conduct.

If we in any way violate these undertakings for which we ourselves stand surety, we forfeit our covenant [dhimma], and we become liable to the penalties for contumacy and sedition.

Umar ibn al-Khittab replied: Sign what they ask, but add two clauses and impose them in addition to those which they have undertaken. They are: "They shall not buy anyone made prisoner by the Muslims," and "Whoever strikes a Muslim with deliberate intent shall forfeit the protection of this pact."

from Al-Turtushi, [I]Siraj al-Muluk, pp. 229-230. [This was a from hand out at an Islamic History Class at the University of Edinburgh in 1979. Source of translation not given.] Source of this quotation, http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/source/pact-umar.html

[The Bos'un]

Muslim understanding of the Qur'an

The first recitation is believed to be Surah 96.

The Qur'an is a perfect replica of that heavenly book, every word, syllable, and letter is directly from allah, perfect and without change.

However, the muhammedans have addressed when there is conflict in the Qur'an .. The concept of "abrogation" in the Quran is that allah chose to reveal ayat (verse in the Quran) that supercede earlier ayat in the same Quran. The central ayah that deals with abrogation is Surah 2:106:
None of Our revelations do We abrogate or cause to be forgotten, but We substitute something better or similar: Knowest thou not that Allah Hath power over all things?
The Qur'an is inimitable, its language and style is such that it cannot be reproduced by a human (and was not the work of Muhammad, but, recitations from the Archangel Gabriel correcting allah's word as the Torah and Christian Bible were corrupted by human thought.)

The Qur'an is timeless and universal.

[The Bos'un]

The Qur'an was delivered to Muhammad piecemeal form 610 - 632. The Surah 9 was believed to be the last recitation. No record of order of deliverance or themes were kept during the life of Muhammad,

The Qur'an was passed down orally, memorization and recitation of Qur'anic passages was esteemed practice over Bedouin campfires from the start.

Abu Bakr, the first Caliph, ordered Zaid ibn Thabit to compile a complete Qur'an. This is said to have been motivated by the battle of Yamama when a very high number of companions of Muhammad were killed in battle. It is said that Abu Bakr was concerned that the Qur'anic recitations would be lost if more companions came to a demise. For more details: http://forums.hannity.com/showthread.php?p=35778891#post35778891

Most Muhammadans tend to believe in the textual purification of the Qur'an. By Uthmān ibn ‘Affān's (عثمان بن عفان) was one of the companions and third Caliph, the Qur'an was written down. By the 10th century the Qur'an was standardized in Arabic.

[The Bos'un]

The five pillars of Islam:

To Bear Witness (Shahada) is the primary of the five pillars.

Prayer (salat)
Almsgiving (Zakat)
Fast of Ramadan
Pilgramage to Mecca (hajj)

Muhammedans are faithful to live out in the Umma (community of Islam).

[notluzn]

Good readings. After class I will read the other posts. I like having a better understanding of the creater of a religion. I personnaly believe there might have been good intentions with Islam but fell short on Respect for other cultures and beliefs and has remained that way for 1400 years. Im just wondering you wrote the Quran after Mohammad died. Where are the scrolls that were used to create it? Hear Say is not an accurate account of Fact.

[jeepers]

Interesting thread. Everytime I read about the concept of 'dhimmi' I always think of The Sneetches. This is not a prejorative, that story is a metaphor for the idea of 'us' and 'them'. Lots of 'us and them' in Islam.

[The Bos'un]

Good readings. After class I will read the other posts. I like having a better understanding of the creator of a religion. I personally believe there might have been good intentions with Islam but fell short on Respect for other cultures and beliefs and has remained that way for 1400 years. Im just wondering you wrote the Quran after Mohammad died. Where are the scrolls that were used to create it? Hear Say is not an accurate account of Fact.
Abu Bakr (the first Caliph) commissioned Zaid ibn Thabit to compile the recitations after the Battle of Yamama. You see prior to that, the recitations were passed down mostly orally as was the custom of the time. I suppose that some scribes and companions may have taken notes, but, there is no recorded facts on that. The recorded history have Abu Bakr commissioning the writing of the Qur'an.

The commission that started under Abu Bakr finished compiling the text during Uthmān ibn ‘Affān's caliphate. Uthmān had it copied and dispatched to the Muslim cities.

Uthmān feared that the the Islamic empire would fall apart if there was not one common Qur'an. After Muhammad (perhaps even before) as Islam spread some had started to write down certain texts and notes and the purity of the recitations were at stake. Uthman ordered variant texts to be burned. Uthmān is said to have been reviewing a copy of the Qur'an when he was assassinated. This may have been a factor regarding his demise as there were much rivalries and intrigue in the formative years of the Islamic faith.....

Passing down Muhammad's recitations was an esteemed practice. Muhammadans take great pride at memorizing and reciting passages of the Qur'an that is now in circulation.

[The Bos'un]

Interesting thread. Everytime I read about the concept of 'dhimmi' I always think of The Sneetches. This is not a prejorative, that story is a metaphor for the idea of 'us' and 'them'. Lots of 'us and them' in Islam.
There is a lot of "us" vs "them" in the Qur'an.

Muhammad suffered much humiliation early on. As he preached monotheism to the pagans of Mecca, who incidentally worshiped about 360 gods, including allah, at the Kaaba, they did not like him upsetting their ways. Muhammad was eventually run out of Mecca, went to Medina and after gathering followers, went back to eventually conquered Mecca, clean up the Kaaba, discharge the other gods and placed allah as their god.

I suspect that the reason that Muhammadans, through the teaching of their Muhammad have "us" vs "them" because of dominance and submission of certain Qur'anic passages.

[The Bos'un]

Courtesy of
Welcome to Submission (Islam) (http://www.submission.info/quran/appendices/appendix4.html)



Why Was the Quran Revealed in Arabic?

We learn from 41:44 that the sincere believers have access to the Quran, regardless of their mother tongue. The disbelievers, on the other hand, are not permitted access to the Quran, even if they are professors of the Arabic language (17:45, 18:57, 41:44, & 56:79).

Arabic is the most efficient language in the world, especially when it comes to the precise statement of laws. Since the Quran is a Statute Book, it was crucial that such laws must be clearly stated. God chose Arabic for His Final Testament because of the obvious reason that it is the most suitable language for that purpose. Arabic is unique in its efficiency and accuracy. For example, the word "they" in English does not tell you if "they" are males or females. In Arabic there is a "they" for the males, "HUM," and a "they" for the females, "HUNNA." There is even a "they" for two males, "HUMAA," and a "they" for two females, "HAATAAN." This feature does not exist in any other language in the world. I came to appreciate this efficiency of the Arabic language when I translated, for example, 2:228. This verse enjoins the divorcee to give up her own wishes to divorce her husband, if she discovers that she is pregnant, and the husband wishes to reconcile - the welfare of the child takes a priority. The efficiency of the Arabic language was extremely helpful in stating this law. Any other language would have made it almost impossible to point out whose wishes are to be superseded, at least not in such a few words as we see in 2:228.

The word "Qaalataa" of 28:23, for example, translates into four English words: "the two women said." Such is the efficiency of the Arabic language.

Another possible reason for choosing Arabic is the fact that "He" and "She" do not necessarily imply natural gender. Thus, when God is referred to as "He," this does not imply gender at all. God be glorified; He is neither male, nor female. The usage of "He" to refer to God in the English language, for example, has contributed to a false image of God. This was not helped by such distorted expressions as "Father" when referring to God. You never find such a reference to God in the Quran.

[Dark Energy]

Whatever our differences, political or otherwise, I strongly admire you for taking this course (as long as its objective and factual), and I wish more people would do likewise.

[The Bos'un]

Whatever our differences, political or otherwise, I strongly admire you for taking this course (as long as its objective and factual), and I wish more people would do likewise.
Thanks for the encouragement. I am going to remain more object regarding this topic and hope that we all learn more about Muhammad, his times, the settings for the recitations, perspectives, the conflict, and modern world responses, both with the unbelievers and with the believers of Islam.

I am trying a different approach and am trying not to be judgmental..... comments are always appreciated.....

As far as the course, it appears to be a good one and is being taught by a university academic of the history of the times.....

[Dark Energy]

I am trying a different approach and am trying not to be judgmental..... comments are always appreciated.....

As far as the course, it appears to be a good one and is being taught by a university academic of the history of the times.....

I really REALLY wish more people would do what you're doing - objective, critical sources, debate, discussion, etc etc. Far too many people just go to their favorite partisan talking points web site (right or left) and pick up their thoughts for the day.

This looks like really good stuff.

[The Bos'un]

I really REALLY wish more people would do what you're doing - objective, critical sources, debate, discussion, etc etc. Far too many people just go to their favorite partisan talking points web site (right or left) and pick up their thoughts for the day.

This looks like really good stuff.
In university class, students have had to wrestle with their Christian faith because certain passages in the Qur'an are truly beautiful prose and poetry. Muhammad was a very charismatic figure to achieve in a short 20 years what some conquering societies take so much more. He went from Zero to 60 in about three seconds if his Islam was compared to a race car..... We really must understand Muhammad, his times, and his religion. So many people either do not understand or do not care.

Back in the old days of 2005 - 2007, this forum, Droog, Kaos, wwrwtw , Rhonda, LD, and so many more would gather around for rather robust discussions. I still have most all the links saved. For reasons I do not understand many of the old forum members are no longer here or have dropped off.

With this tread, I have hopes that we can dissect the power and inspiration of Islam and gain a better understanding.

In 1970 (I think it was 1970 or so) one of my division officers suggested that I read the little red book, Quotations of Chairman Mao, to better understand what we were up against. I did and still have Chairman Mao's Little Red Book, one in English and another in Chinese. Mao was a worthy adversary. In the same light, I look at Osama bin Laden as a person to try to understand as well. Both Mao and bin Laden were/are pure evil, but, to understand what we are up against, one must get into their minds.

To better appreciate Islam, one must try to get into Muhammad's head to and understand where he was coming from. (I do not use "appreciate" as a positive term, but, for lack of a better qualifier, use it here to understand.)

I hope some (much smarter than I) join in on this thread to provide insight and discuss Islam.

For the present, we should leave the attacks on Islam to the side and focus on learning and exploring the life and times of Muhammad and early Islam to better understand present day Islam.....

[The Bos'un]

Courtesy of http://www.submission.info/quran/appendices/appendix13.html


The First Pillar of Islam (Submission):
"Laa Elaaha Ellaa Allah" (No god except God)

Verse 3:18 states the First Pillar of Islam (Submission): "God bears witness that there is no other god besides Him, and so do the angels and those who possess knowledge."

This most crucial pillar has been distorted. Millions of Muslims have adopted Satan's polytheistic version, and insist upon mentioning the name of Muhammad besides the name of God. However, the Quran's great criterion in 39:45 stamps such Muslims as disbelievers: "When God ALONE is mentioned, the hearts of those who do disbelieve in the Hereafter shrink with aversion, but when others are mentioned with Him, they become satisfied."

I have conducted extensive research into this criterion, and I have reached a startling conclusion: the idol worshipers who do not uphold the First Pillar of Islam as dictated in 3:18 are forbidden by God from uttering the correct Shahadah. They simply cannot say: "Ash-hadu Allaa Elaaha Ellaa Allah" by itself, without mentioning the name of Muhammad. Try it with any idol worshiper who claims to be a Muslim. Challenge them to say: "Ash-hadu Allaa Elaaha Ellaa Allah." They can never say it. Since this is the religion of Abraham (2:130, 135; 3:95; 4:125; 6:161; 12:37-38; 16:123; 22:78; Appendix 9), the ONLY creed must be "LAA ELAAHA ELLAA ALLAH (there is no god except the One God)". Muhammad did not exist on earth before Abraham.
A Gross Blasphemy

There is no greater blasphemy than distorting the Quran to idolize the prophet Muhammad against his will. Verse 19 of Sura "Muhammad" (47:19) states: "You shall know that there is no god except the one God." Shown below is a photocopy of the regular logo of a Muslim publication THE REVIEW OF RELIGIONS (The London Mosque, 16 Gressenhall Road, London SW18 5QL, England.) Using the Quran's calligraphic style, the publishers of THE REVIEW OF RELIGIONS added the phrase "Muhammad Rasool Allah" in such a way that gives a false impression that such is the Quranic statement of 47:19.

What a blasphemy!
http://www.submission.info/quran/appendices/app13_01.gif
You shall know that there is no god besides the One God, Allah. Muhammad is a messenger of God.

[ The blasphemy ]




Typical Example of the Distorted Islam

[The Bos'un]

Part 3: Three perspectives (aspects of Islam): law, theology, Sufism (mystical practice)

Differences between Christian and Islamic Law:

Christians are very much interested in theology, "what we believe" that has resulted in an untold number of theological disputes that incidentally have shaped Christian thought over the last 2000 plus years

Muslims, on the other hand, are shaped not by disputes over theology, but over the law – what is the right manner of behaving.


Shari'ah – the word for law (literally, the path) – its earliest meaning is “the path to the watering hole.” Think of it this way, a path in the desert to the next oasis. One must not deviate from that path or one would parish. The word is the path.
Shari'ah, Fiqh, Ijtihad, Ijma


Shari'ah can be added to – more laws can be developed
Fiqh is the process of interpreting the law and applying it to new situations, thus developing new laws. Think of it as jurisprudence
Ijtihad – is the “effort” that goes into discovering the new laws. Think of it by a story relayed by the prophet: A religious leader was asked by Muhammad how he would rule. The religious leader said, of course by the Qur'an. Muhammad asked him “what then.”, and the religious leader answered, “By the Sunnahs.” Muhammad asked him, “What then?” And the religious leader finally answer “By Ijtihad” (effort).
Ijma – means consensus – Islam is filled with thousands of leaders trying to come up with God’s will – when enough come together and it reaches consensus, then it becomes Sharia.

[The Bos'un]

Stages of Islamic development

610-661 – There was a close and personal connection to the prophet, Muhammad

661-750 – expansion comes rapidly – now millions of adherents as the Islamic empire, Caliphate if you will, expands. With that, there is also an insecurity because with the Caliphate and new followers there are multiple languages, lifestyles and customs. The Caliphs were not completely trusted, surely they did not have the same authority and stature as Muhammad. He was the last of the prophets. The Caliphs were not absolute monarchs and had to be sensitive to the will of the Umma (community).

There was also a development of scholars (Ulama) – their role was to interpret the law – kind of like the peanut gallery looking over the shoulder of the Caliphs

Expansion of the Hadith (oral stories and tradition, what would Muhammad do if you will) - Authority of the Hadith was dependent upon the trail of oral tradition – so & so heard this from Muhammad, who passed it along to so & so; One might surmise that basically people were making up stories about what Muhammad said in order to support their ideas.

Al-Bukhari went through the Hadith and came up with the "authentic collection." According to tradition Al-Bukhari went through roughly 600,000 Hadith of them to come up with his collection of 2700.

During this time there were a rise of schools of thought, Madrassas if you will. These schools of thought differed in which Hadith they accepted and the differenced in interpretation of how much of a role human reason plays into it=.

Mutazilite school – human reason alone can give us true guidance about what is right or lawful

Ahmad ibn Hanbal (the linage of the Taliban thought): This school – human reason plays no role – it’s G_d’s revelation alone. They believe that their ideas came directly from G_d and that man played no role. hard core fundamentalist (don’t accept that they are doing interpretation of the Qur'an).

10th century – there was some synthesis of the ideas Hanbali school – conservative on what sources they accepted (only Quran & accepted Suna) but some basic reason is accepted.

12th Century – belief in the “closing of the Gates of Ijtihad”

Everything that can be said has been said. One could not exert effort any more to figure things out on one's own. What is left was quoting the past scholars. When faced with a new situation, Muslims now have to take the questions to the mufti, who intern issues a fatwa (a decision) based upon former decisions.

[The Bos'un]

Theology and Mysticism:

Kalam – Islamic theology

Mostly the focus is on analyzing the attributes of G_d


There was the dispute between the Mutazilites (emphasis on human reason) and the Hanbalis. The issue of sovereignty & judgment

Mutazilites: G_d’s will is not arbitrary – people are punished for not holding to things which they know to be right
Hanbal – G_d’s will is arbitrary – G_d judges because he chooses to and whatever he chooses is right by virtue of his choice
Ashari – theory of acquisition – we do things because G_d determines that we do them, but we acquire these actions and they are truly ours – so G_d is not unjust in his judgment of our actions.
In Islam, everything is G_d's will. Creation is never finished – every heartbeat is a new decision by G_d. It’s like a film – each frame is a complete new creation – G_d’s will is absolute. Think of it this way: It is said that some of the worst drivers in the world are though to be in Muslim countries. This subjective observation may come from the Islamic philosophy that "If I’m going to die, it’s G_d’s will and if it’s not my time, it is not going to happen."
Sufism: The Soul of Islam

Sufi – comes from Arabic word for wool – might refer to the scratchy woolen clothing Sufis would wear as an expression of asceticism. A Sufi is a Muslim who dedicates himself to the quest after mystical union with G_d. The Sufis were distinguishable from their fellows by wearing a habit of coarse woollen cloth, in time when silks and brocades had become the fashion of the wealthy and mundane-minded, symbolic of their renunciation of worldly values and their abhorrence for physical comforts. Source: http://www.omphaloskepsis.com/ebooks/pdf/mussm.pdf

One might say that Sufism arose out of the desire to make the following of rules meaningful and was influenced by monasticism.



Characteristics of Sufism:

Emphasis on intention
Emphasis on love of G_D
Spiritual masters (shaykhs)
Meditation
Monks were admired by the early Muslims and may be illustrated by the story of Hasan al-Basri. al-Basri apparently went from town to town and was referred to as "a weeper." al-Basri was one obsessed with loud crying. When he came to a town, people would flock to hear him. al Basri weeped for the sins of society, which was seen as as implied criticism of the Caliphs. al Basri emphasized the importance of intention. Worshiping G_d not for the fear of hell, but for the love of G_d for his own sake. The Sufis emphasized the love of G_d more than other elements and emphasized certain techniques to experience G_d better.

Al-Hasan al-Basri used to say: “Breaking relations with a profligate is a source of nearness to G_d.”
Al-Sha’rani clarifies this statement by adding: “What he (Al-Hasan) means is breaking relations with him in one’s heart, not in a physical sense. Physically distancing oneself from him is not appropriate because contact with him is necessary in order to help correct his deviancy and lead him to hate the attributes of profligacy that he possesses. The profligate is actually the lost possession of every true caller to G_d. Try to understand this point. Surely, G_d knows best. source: http://www.newislamicdirections.com/nid/articles/wisdom_part_three/




Spiritual masters (shaykhs) developed techniques such as:

Meditation – dhikr – especially on the attributes of God.
The whirling Durvishes – would whirl in one place until they reached an ecstatic state of experience of God.
Fana (annihilation of ones own desires)
baqa (survival of the true love for God)
When one reached the highest level of Sufism – person would be called a wali. This is achieved sainthood.

Women were often attracted to Sufism because they could participate – gave them a voice and a manner of bringing influence (Rabia – famous woman Sufi) see:


Rabia Basri (http://www.khamush.com/sufism/rabia.htm)

In the history of Islam, the woman saint made her ... The goal of the Sufi quest was union with the Divine ... and goes onto say, 'She was the most famous among them, of ... www.khamush.com/sufism/rabia.htm (http://www.khamush.com/sufism/rabia.htm)

[The Bos'un]

Week 4: Christianity and Islam in conflict

War & Rivalry

The relationship of Islam and Christianity must be understood with a context of almost constant armed conflict, cultural ignorance, and misunderstanding. For instance, in the early middle ages, Christians did not realize that Islam was a separate religion and assumed that it was a more fundamental form of the same monotheistic religion.

Within this context, the identity and status of Jerusalem has evolved and been contested over the centuries. Cultures and societies have continued to reinvent the past to justify the present. And, Islam has also reinvented the past to justify the needs for the present Jerusalem. Jerusalem’s importance is dictated by this conflict

Muslim expansion through to 900

Christianity was divided, both theologically and culturally. Many Christians were weary of the Byzantine Empire and to many Islam appeared to be more reasonable at the time. After all, considering the way many were treated by the Romans and later the Byzantine Empire, the Pact of Umar seemed more reasonable and offered some degree of autonomy. The Byzantine Empire ruled with more of iron glove, believed in tax without representation. The Muslim’s jizya tax was more reasonable.

Christians throughout the Mediterranean region spoke different languages and there were vast cultural and identity differences. The Muslims did not encourage conversion and were more apt to leave the non believers to their own desires as long as they did not violate the agreements and truces such as the Pact of Umar.

Why did Christians convert to Islam?

This is a very tough question and the answers elusive. True, there were definitely disadvantages to staying true to the confession of faith, not owning property, being prevented from better jobs, and other inconveniences for remaining non-believers. One must also understand the rise of Islam, natural disasters and a sense that perhaps G_d was mad at them. .

Many who were already nominal in their faith didn’t feel that it was worth fighting against. The sometimes divided nature of Eastern and Western thoughts of Christianity may have also played a role. Remember, during this early 700 – 900 AD period, iconoclasts destroyed countless works of art and religious images, due to controversy among Christians of the Byzantine Empire in the 8th and 9th centuries. One might attribute the rise of the age of Islam to fear and crisis of faith of the non-believers.

In 638, Umar took Jerusalem. Pact of Umar – it did make Christians into a marginalized group that couldn’t advance socially. Christian men were not allowed to marry a Muslim woman. However, Christian women were allowed to marry Muslim men, and the offspring, raised Muslim. Mixed marriage always pushed toward Muslim dominance.

Iconoclastic controversy: Iconoclasts destroyed the icons and claimed that they were graven images. Muslim abhorrence for images influenced Christian Iconoclasts. In 726, when a volcano activity caused havoc in the Byzantine empire, questions arose whether sin in the church – particularly problematic were with icons and graven images were to blame. Interestingly, the controversy was really a Christian response to the Muslim success / most of the victories were for Muslims up to the 11th century.

[The Bos'un]

Christian attempts to bridge the gap between Islam and Christianity.

Francis of Assisi (1181 -1226)
Ramon de Penyaforte (1175-1275)
Jacques de Vitry (1160 – 1240)
Ramon Llull (1265 – 1316)

Terms for Muslims
Agarenes – (descendants of Hagar) /
Saracens
Moors
Turks – all Muslim called Turks because so many came from there and the political power came from there
Barbarians – pejorative term

Peter the Venerable – tried to understand Islam – translated the Quran into Latin Eventually he wrote a book describing Islam as a sect of Christianity. In popular culture – many stories told about Muslims – really painted as charlatans.

Some described Muslims in more derogatory terms. Muhammad – stories about him being trampled to death by pigs. Or of him putting grain in his ear so that when the pigeon came to eat it, it would look like a dove (the Holy Spirit) was speaking to him in his ear.

On the other hand, many felt that Muslims were virtuous, courageous / a romantic, foreign, and exotic.

Muslim view of Christians:

Uncultured followers of a religion that has been superseded by Islam. One should research “The Book of the Categories of Nations” – written in 11th century. Muslims looked at both Europeans in the north and Africans to the south as Barbarians. Little did I know that during this early era, Muslims were concerned with skin color and at time could be prejudice. Muhammad and later his followers refuted Christianity through the Quran. Muslims established vast libraries and felt that they were more cultured than the Europeans. One refutation that strongly carries over to today is that Islam has the correct answer to those who have changed the religion of Christ. G_d gave the Jews and Christians the correct text, but, Jews and Christians got it wrong and corrupted it. Muhammad received the recitations to correct the text. (However, even has he would receive the recitations, he abrogated what he received.)

Pilgrimage to the Holy Land always a big deal – even when the Muslims had control of it in the Middle Ages / Christians would often visit / even from England they’d make pilgrimage. It was not until 691 that the Muslims saw a significance to Jerusalem to honor Muhammad’s night trips. In 691, the Dome of the Rock built on the Temple Mount. It’s not a Mosque, but, a shrine to honor Islam. Currently it is the oldest Muslim building in existence. The Ka’aba in Mecca was destroyed and rebuilt.

In the middle ages, it is fair to say that Christians were tolerated in general, but some exceptions. The Caliph al-Hakim was generally recognized that he was insane. Caliph al-Hakim decreed that the souks (سوق), markets of you will, must stay open 24 hours a day. Caliph al-Hakim ordered thousands of his people executed. Al-Hakim also was famous for destroying thousands of churches. After Caliph al-Hakim destroyed the Church of the Holy Sepulcher, this act helped to spark the Crusades.

Europe for the first time is starting to heat up economically – so now the will is there and preachers started preaching the cause of the crusade. Muslims and apologists may say that the crusades were economically driven. But that appears to be untrue, as, the Crusades cost families and cities considerably to send out their warriors.

The 1st Crusade retook the city of Jerusalem in 1104. Christians saw this as a huge miracle. They set up European states (Crusader States) around the holy land. In truth, the Christian Crusaders were lucky because the Muslims didn’t have their best armies there.

In 1187 Saladin (during 3rd crusade) retook Jerusalem for Islam. After this, the Muslims held the city. In 1187, Jerusalem started to be asserted as the 3rd most holy site. By 1291, Muslims completely take over the Middle East.

[The Bos'un]

Ottoman Empire

The Ottoman Empire expanded through the 16th century.

At the height of its power (16th–17th century), it spanned three continents, controlling much of Southeastern Europe, the Middle East and North Africa. It stretched from the Strait of Gibraltar (and in 1553 the Atlantic coast of Morocco beyond Gibraltar) in the west to the Caspian Sea and Persian Gulf in the east; and from the edge of Austria, Hungary and parts of Ukraine in the north to Sudan, Eritrea, Somalia and Yemen in the south. The Ottoman Empire contained 29 provinces, in addition to the tributary principalities of Moldavia, Transylvania, and Wallachia. The empire also temporarily gained authority over distant overseas lands through declarations of allegiance to the Ottoman Sultan and Caliph, such as the declaration by the Sultan of Aceh in 1565; or through the temporary acquisitions of islands in the Atlantic Ocean, such as Lanzarote (1585), Madeira (1617), Vestmannaeyjar (1627) and Lundy (1655).

The empire was at the centre of interactions between the Eastern and Western worlds for six centuries. With Constantinople (Istanbul) as its capital city, and vast control of lands during the reign of Suleiman the Magnificent which largely corresponded to the lands ruled by Justinian the Great exactly 1000 years earlier, the Ottoman Empire was, in many respects, an Islamic successor to the Eastern Roman (Byzantine) Empire. Numerous traditions and cultural traits of this previous empire (in fields such as architecture, cuisine, music, leisure and government) were adopted by the Ottomans, who elaborated them into new forms and blended them with the characteristics of the ethnic and religious groups living within the Ottoman territories, which resulted in a new and distinctively Ottoman cultural identity.


By 1529, the Turks were at the door of Europe, all the way to the Gates of Vienna and south to North Africa. The Ottoman Empire lasted all the way till WW1. Muslims could think of themselves as the dominant power.

The period of Ottoman decline (loss of huge territories) is typically characterized by historians also as an era of modern times. The Empire lost territory on all fronts, and there was administrative instability because of the breakdown of centralized government, despite efforts of reform and reorganization such as the Tanzimat. During this period, the Empire faced challenges in defending itself against foreign invasion and occupation. The Empire ceased to enter conflicts on its own and began to forge alliances with European countries such as France, the Netherlands, the United Kingdom, and Russia. As an example, in the Crimean War the Ottomans united with the British, French, and others against Russia.

courtesy of Wikipedia.

[The Bos'un]

Adapting to Modernity

The relationship of Islam and the Western world continues to be unfortunately understood with a context of almost constant armed conflict, cultural ignorance, and misunderstanding. Take for instance three elections held in the Palestinian areas led to radical groups being elected to the dismay of the west. When we went into Iraq, we naively thought that democracy would be embraced and follow the "liberation." Unfortunately the outcome was not what we expected and the process has been slow and tedious.

The challenge of westernization under colonialism and during the transition to modern Muslim states gave rise to two not completely dissimilar Islamic movements—Modern and Neorevivalist. Both had a great part in shaping the modern Muslim world.

Lets face it, there are some in the Islamic world who do not like the west due to the legacy of colonialism and imperialism.

In the 19th century, we saw almost all of the Muslim countries came under the power of the west. This brought new possibilities into Muslim cultures: Liberalism; Possibilities of divorce and more rights for women; Moderate moral standards.

Background in westernization and colonialism and Muslim nationalism

There appeared a movement of intelligencia. A significant number of the best and brightest scholarly Muslims went for education in the West. Western Universities were planted in Muslim countries.

There appeared middle positions on things western and a scorn of traditions. Western thought introduced westernized legal standards (contract law, etc.). There appears a revelation of reason and the "Gates of Ijtihad" began to swing open.

The goal of the the westernizing of the middle east —synthesis of Islam with modern science and learning. Colonialism brought on a a concept that government was responsible for everything and religious groups were regulated with increasing frequency.

However, the legacy was short lived. Westernization did not catch on on the popular level. As the Europeans left, authoritarian dictatorships replaced the colonial governments. Racism and other isms seemed to rise.

Neorevivalist and Islamic Movements began to gain traction. Islamists rejected leaders like the Shah of Iran and were against the status quo of secular governments.

Look at Hasan al Banna (1906 - 1949) who started to Muslim Brotherhood and Mawlana Abul Ala Mawdudi (1903 - 1979) who started the Jamaat i Islami (Islamic Society). Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini (1900 - 1989) and his movement to restore Islam to Iran brought down the Shah of Iran.

Turkey is the last of the secular Islamic countries left. UAE and Iraq may be on the rise. However most of the Arab countries remain elusive for democratic freedoms.

[The Bos'un]

Vocabulary of Jihad

Dar al Islam "adobe of peace" In Dar al Islam, Islam dominates and Shari'ah prevails.

Dar al Harb "abode of war" In Dar al Harb, Islam does not prevail and and there exists an struggle to bring rebellious non believers into Islam.

Jihad "effort, struggle" Some say this is an external struggle to force conversion and others say it is an internal struggle to quell Dar al Harb in ones self. I would say the latter, neorevivalists, Islamists if you will, bring the external struggle and Islamic modernists, bring the internal struggle.

Rules of Jihad

Must be a sufficient expectation of success
There must be a summoning of infidels to belief – must be a religious reason for Jihad
It must be ended when the victory has been established
A Muslim Believer in the class tonight, former NBL player, brought it like this, say for instance one is walking down the street or riding on a bus and sees a very pretty and inviting girl; one turns his eyes to the ground or looks away to focus on a distant object, that is internal jihad. I had never heard it this way before and it made me think. Of course this Muslim Believer is a converted Muslim and very moderate.

I plan to have more in depth conversations with him in the coming weeks.

Back to the neorevivalists, 9/11 brought into context a mistaken belief that we had about who were jihadists. Prior to 9/11 most radicals were believed to be poor and misfortuned, however the true neorevivalists or Islamist is middle to upper class, sophisticated in design, political and community organizer, positive leadership in the Ummah. They are filled with anger and hate the western world for what they see it to be.

Interestingly, at times I can see that some of the hate of western society is not misplaced. Do not get me wrong, but, take a look at the crime, corruption, sin filled nature of some of our society, Christians and secular idealists reject that type of behavior too. We tend to act out in a different manner than hate filled wild eyed fanatical Islamists.

[The Bos'un]

Contemporary Islam

The 1970s through the 90s has been an era of Islamic resurgence, expressed in terms of both political activism and personal recommitment.
The Six Day War in 1967 between Israel and Egypt, Syria and Jordan and other signs of failure.

The Six Day War brought "the crisis" to Islam in modern times due to:
Three major states failed to stand up to tiny Israel. Some blamed "the crisis" on the secularism of modern Muslim countries. Many felt that "allah is punishing us for our misgivings.

Many of the secular leaders were now seen as illegitimate leaders. The Shah was taken out by moderates and radicals alike in Iran.

The defeat on the Six Day War created an identity crisis – Muslims who were once the strongest in the world are getting kicked around. Spiritual crisis – allah is letting the Umma suffer in this way because he is being unfaithful

Islamic resurgence after “The Crisis” from the 1970s-90s

Economic/Military
Nations decided to not allow themselves to be kicked around like this again

1973-1974: oil embargo – the countries began to operate in an coordinated manner to make the west bow

Spiritual
Saudi Arabia began to use its wealth all around the world to establish maddrasas and religious centers. Saudi Arabia came out of the Wanhabi movement – so strong religious orientation.

Islam began to strong rejection of western materialistic values. That critique is something that we as Christians can certainly agree with. Christians and secular westerners live with a degree of impurity around us that is exceptional.

A major movement has started to reconstruct Muslim countries along Islamic values.

[sgtmac_46]

I admire Islam.....as a conquering religion, it's nearly perfect. If I were going to pick a religion to start an empire around and indoctrinate my troops in it, Islam would be at the top of my list.

It's no surprise that the Mongol invaders ultimately adopted Islam as their religion.

It really is more robust than Judaism or Christianity......Christianity, for it's part, gives it's salvation away......in Islam it must be earned through religious struggle.......a powerful motivating factor.

[sgtmac_46]

Contemporary Islam

The 1970s through the 90s has been an era of Islamic resurgence, expressed in terms of both political activism and personal recommitment.
The Six Day War in 1967 between Israel and Egypt, Syria and Jordan and other signs of failure.

The Six Day War brought "the crisis" to Islam in modern times due to:
Three major states failed to stand up to tiny Israel. Some blamed "the crisis" on the secularism of modern Muslim countries. Many felt that "allah is punishing us for our misgivings.

Many of the secular leaders were now seen as illegitimate leaders. The Shah was taken out by moderates and radicals alike in Iran.

The defeat on the Six Day War created an identity crisis – Muslims who were once the strongest in the world are getting kicked around. Spiritual crisis – allah is letting the Umma suffer in this way because he is being unfaithful

Islamic resurgence after “The Crisis” from the 1970s-90s

Economic/Military
Nations decided to not allow themselves to be kicked around like this again

1973-1974: oil embargo – the countries began to operate in an coordinated manner to make the west bow

Spiritual
Saudi Arabia began to use its wealth all around the world to establish maddrasas and religious centers. Saudi Arabia came out of the Wanhabi movement – so strong religious orientation.

Islam began to strong rejection of western materialistic values. That critique is something that we as Christians can certainly agree with. Christians and secular westerners live with a degree of impurity around us that is exceptional.

A major movement has started to reconstruct Muslim countries along Islamic values. I strongly suspect it's really secularism and the increasingly secular nature of the west that they are rejecting......I suspect they could live with the true believing christianity.



Some very good information Bosun.......I look forward to reading more as you add it!

[The Bos'un]

I strongly suspect it's really secularism and the increasingly secular nature of the west that they are rejecting......I suspect they could live with the true believing christianity.



Some very good information Bosun.......I look forward to reading more as you add it!
I suspect that you are very close to what the radicalized Muhammadans hate. We really need to explore this more closely and have in-depth dialog about this topic. KAOSKTRL, Droog, wwrwtw, Lord Dreadmore, Rhonda, and others used to have some very good round tables here about this very subject. As I recall we tried to have an Islamic forum here at one time, but, due to sensitivities and some rather harsh words, that was done away with and some of the forum members left the forum. Maybe we could approach this again. This class was a real eye opener and I need to digest it before I post more. Thank you for your encouraging words sgtmac_46. I am surprised and a little disappointed that some forum members who have insinuated that I was a bigot in the past have not joined into this thread and started to explore more of what they believe and why they believe it. I hope that more will start rolling into this thread to explore Islam more in depth. Have a good day.

[The Bos'un]

A very interesting revelation this evening that has escaped me for the past 3 years. I am not sure if I knew this before or slept through KAOSKTRL's early on instructions.

In a short history of Islam that I was reading tonight, during 624, when the prophet was in Medina, he became distressed by the rejection of the Jews and Christians who he thought were on his side and of one faith with him.

You see he had originally began preaching that he was not changing the Book, but, was reminding the People of the Book (Ahl al- kitab) who were followers of an earlier revelation and Arabs what they already knew.

The orientation of the salat ( Arabic: صلاة‎, Qur'anic Arabic: صلوة ) changed. Muhammad told the congregation to turn around and pray to Mecca. Prior to that they had prayed to Jerusalem.

By turning away from Jerusalem toward the Ka'aba, which had no connection to Judaism and Christianity, Muslims demonstrated that they were reverting to the original pure monotheism of Abraham, who lived before the revelation of either the Torah and Gospel. Therefore the religion of the one allah had been split into warring sects. According to this change of orientation, Muslims would direct themselves to allah alone; it would be considered idolatrous to bow before a human system or established religion of the People of the Book. Ref: Qur'an 2:129-132 (http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/002.qmt.html); 3:58 - 62 (http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/003.qmt.html); 2:139 (http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/002.qmt.html)

Koran, the inspired scripture that Muhammad brought to the Arabs, venerates the great prophets of the Judea-Christian tradition. It speaks of Solomon's "great place of prayer" in Jerusalem, which the first Muslims called City of the Temple. Only after the Jews of Medina rejected Muhammad did he switch orientation and instruct his adherents to pray facing Mecca, whose ancient shrine, the Ka'aba, was thought by locals to have been built by Abraham and his son Ishmael, the father of the Arabs. Source: Time/CNN Why Jerusalem Was Central To Muhammad (http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,999674,00.html)

[The Bos'un]

A very interesting revelation this evening that has escaped me for the past 3 years. I am not sure if I knew this before or slept through KAOSKTRL's early on instructions.

In a short history of Islam that I was reading tonight, during 624, when the prophet was in Medina, he became distressed by the rejection of the Jews and Christians who he thought were on his side and of one faith with him.

You see he had originally began preaching that he was not changing the Book, but, was reminding the People of the Book (Ahl al- kitab) who were followers of an earlier revelation and Arabs what they already knew.

The orientation of the salat ( Arabic: صلاة‎, Qur'anic Arabic: صلوة ) changed. Muhammad told the congregation to turn around and pray to Mecca. Prior to that they had prayed to Jerusalem.

By turning away from Jerusalem toward the Ka'aba, which had no connection to Judaism and Christianity, Muslims demonstrated that they were reverting to the original pure monotheism of Abraham, who lived before the revelation of either the Torah and Gospel. Therefore the religion of the one allah had been split into warring sects. According to this change of orientation, Muslims would direct themselves to allah alone; it would be considered idolatrous to bow before a human system or established religion of the People of the Book. Ref: Qur'an 2:129-132 (http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/002.qmt.html); 3:58 - 62 (http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/003.qmt.html); 2:139 (http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/002.qmt.html)
There are so many blind corners in this study of Islam that I have embarked upon.

[The Bos'un]

I emailed a good friend about this commentary, and he graciously pointed out that while my comments were essentially so, Mohammad didn’t know the book, did not follow it, and was not of the prophetic bloodline , hence he was rejected as a prophet.

Karen Armstrong did not point that out in her history of Islam. I was hoping that we could open a dialog here and explore this topic.

[The Bos'un]

There are so many more blind corners in this study of Islam that I have embarked upon.

[The Bos'un]

One has to keep a very open mind in this discussion and I could see from the start that Karen Armstrong would not throw any stones in her book. Karen continues to believe that the West must try to understand and essentially accept Islam's point of view (without necessarily agreeing with it my emphasis).

[The Bos'un]

One has to keep a very open mind in this discussion and I could see from the start that Karen Armstrong would not throw any stones in her book. Karen continues to believe that the West must try to understand and essentially accept Islam's point of view (without necessarily agreeing with it my emphasis).
As I said in the beginning of this thread, we should begin to understand Muhammad's story to understand where he is coming from. I would like to back up a little to the change in the orientation bowing to Mecca not Jerusalem, like originally done. This change of qiblah was a declaration of independence of Islam. By their turning away from Jerusalem they were returning to what they believed was the pure monotheism of Abraham.

I agree with Karen Armstrong that this gave the Arabs a needed boost in their identity and it separated them for the Jews and Christians so that they would not have to lamely tag along with the Jews and Christians like a little brother or second class citizen.

Muhammad was very sensitive to the insults and rejection that he received from the people of the book. He was scorned and did not accept it well. Later Muhammad was to recite some uncivil things toward Jews and Christians.

[The Bos'un]

Another friend emailed me with this comment: I remember hearing it originally, in Israel, from the father of an Arab friend. When I asked him why Allah had not instructed Muhammad to face Mecca from the beginning, he gave me the eon-old statement of, "Who knows what is in the mind of Allah"?

[The Bos'un]

I discovered an interesting commentary in the Jerusalem Post today:

Qur’an: The gospel truth? (http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1227702431692&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull)


Courtesy of the Jerusalem Post (http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1227702431692&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull)
By SEAN GANNON (editors@jpost.com)

September 26 marked the 20th anniversary (http://www.jpost.com/) of Viking Penguin’s publication of Salman Rushdie’s The Satanic Verses (http://www.jpost.com/). While generally well-received by the critics, its treatment of Islamic themes in a series of narrative subplots was quickly deemed blasphemous and Viking Penguin’s refusal to heed demands for its withdrawal led to an international furor, culminating in an Iranian fatwa sentencing Rushdie to death. His crime? Responsibility for a book which was “compiled, printed and published in opposition to Islam, the prophet and the Koran” and “dared to insult the Islamic sanctities.”

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?blobcol=urlimage&blobheader=image%2Fjpeg&blobheadername1=Cache-Control&blobheadervalue1=max-age%3D420&blobkey=id&blobtable=JPImage&blobwhere=1227702429289&cachecontrol=5%3A0%3A0+*%2F*%2F*&ssbinary=true
Photo: Bloomberg - An 800-year-old manuscript of the Koran (http://www.jpost.com/), written in gold. Did the Islamic holy book emerge out of a two-centuries-long dialogue between Muslims and the Christians and Jews they encountered during the Islamic con quest?

That Rushdie was forced to spend 10 years in hiding (and still lives under threat of execution) on the grounds that The Satanic Verses, a work of fiction, represented a “total distortion of the historical facts” about Islam is deeply ironic, given that a genuine critico-historical assault on “Islamic sanctities” had been under way for more than a decade with no repercussions.

Spearheaded by scholars at London University’s School of Oriental and African Studies (SOAS), it focused largely on the Koran, which these so-called new historians of Islam subjected to modern historical and philological analysis. Their findings flatly contradict the Islamic account of its origins.
According to this account, the Koran represents the uncorrupted word of God, “constant, immaculate, unalterable and inimitable.” It was transmitted to man through Muhammad, a prosperous Meccan merchant who received it via the angel Gabriel as a series of verse revelations between 610 and his death in 632. Uneducated and illiterate, Muhammad committed these revelations to memory before reciting them to his followers, who memorized them verbatim in turn. The killing of hundreds of these “memorizers” in the battle of Yamama in 633 alerted his successor as Muslim leader, the first caliph, Abu Bakr, to the danger that the revelations could be lost. He therefore gathered all available sources into a loose compilation called the suhuf which was then used by the third caliph, Uthman, to produce in the mid-650s a standardized text of the Koran.

Copies were sent to Islamic communities with orders that all other versions be destroyed. Muslims believe this Uthmanic recension is the Koran as we have it today.

Did the Islamic holy book emerge out of a two-centuries-long dialogue between Muslims and the Christians and Jews they encountered during the Islamic con quest? For the rest of the commentary, please visit the Jerusalem Post, Qur’an: The gospel truth? (http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1227702431692&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull)

Technorati tags: muhammed (http://technorati.com/tags/muhammed), qur’an (http://technorati.com/tags/qur'an), mecca (http://technorati.com/tags/mecca), suhuf (http://technorati.com/tags/suhuf), uthmanic recension (http://technorati.com/tags/uthmanic%20recension), muslim (http://technorati.com/tags/muslim), christian (http://technorati.com/tags/christian), jew (http://technorati.com/tags/jew), gospel truth (http://technorati.com/tags/gospel%20truth), islamic sanctities (http://technorati.com/tags/islamic%20sanctities), salman rushdie (http://technorati.com/tags/salman%20rushdie), satanic verses (http://technorati.com/tags/satanic%20verses), yamama (http://technorati.com/tags/yamama), abu bakr (http://technorati.com/tags/abu%20bakr), uthman (http://technorati.com/tags/uthman), prophet of the koran (http://technorati.com/tags/prophet%20of%20the%20koran)

[waynevan]

Bump, so I have it in my posts and can find this thread again. I don't really have time to read it now.

[The Bos'un]

Enjoy, waynevan

[The Bos'un]

maybe it is time to bring this forward again.....

[ImNewHere]

It is time to pay reparations to Muslims for the atrocities committed at the hands of the blond haired, blue eyed devil!

[The Bos'un]

Blond hair, Blue eyes, good looking devil. hmmmmm. Have not heard from you for a while my friend.

[The Bos'un]

I am sending this to the top seems we have been discussing the Qur'an. Really we must know more of what this religion, Islam, really is..... Peace, Kafir Habri

[sgdp]

Why are these Islam threads always in the GI rather than RF?

[Jalend Skyr]

Thanks for the info. Very informative.

[The Bos'un]

That has been answered many times already..... :))

[The Bos'un]

Your welcome...

[The Bos'un]

Is it time to talk about Muhammad the Caravan Raider, again?

[JStasc08]

Is it time to talk about Muhammad the Caravan Raider, again?

Do you believe the "Caravan Raider" acted unprovoked and if so, what are your reasons behind this stance?

[The Bos'un]

Assalamu Alikum infidels and believers,

The people of the book provoked him when they did not blindly follow his banner.... Read the WHOLE thread from start to finish my friend.

During Muhammad's opposition in Mecca before his expulsion and Hijra to Yathrib (Medina) Muhammad received Surah 50. His tone changed slightly from Surah 96 to Surah 50 and he took on a more critical stance toward those who opposed him.

We can talk about his caravan raiding days and how he justified his actions. I suspect that "Mo" exaggerated his authority and perhaps perpetuated some non truths in his quest to unite the Arabian Peninsula.

Watch out for the camel sticking his nose in your tent.. ( "If the camel once gets his nose in the tent, his body will soon follow." ) ;)

http://ts4.images.live.com/images/thumbnail.aspx?q=1112752193555&id=86edface693e22e8427ed0d3c84f15da&url=http%3a%2f%2faleksan.files.wordpress.com%2f200 8%2f01%2fcamels-nose.jpg

[JStasc08]

Assalamu Alikum infidels and believers,

The people of the book provoked him when they did not blindly follow his banner.... Read the WHOLE thread from start to finish my friend.

During Muhammad's opposition in Mecca before his expulsion and Hijra to Yathrib (Medina) Muhammad received Surah 50. His tone changed slightly from Surah 96 to Surah 50 and he took on a more critical stance toward those who opposed him.

We can talk about his caravan raiding days and how he justified his actions. I suspect that "Mo" exaggerated his authority and perhaps perpetuated some non truths in his quest to unite the Arabian Peninsula.

Watch out for the camel sticking his nose in your tent.. ( "If the camel once gets his nose in the tent, his body will soon follow." ) ;)

http://ts4.images.live.com/images/thumbnail.aspx?q=1112752193555&id=86edface693e22e8427ed0d3c84f15da&url=http%3a%2f%2faleksan.files.wordpress.com%2f200 8%2f01%2fcamels-nose.jpg

Well, you said yourself in an earlier post that Muhammad was driven out of Mecca. Having been forced to abandon their properties after being driven out by the Quraysh, Muhammad only granted his followers permission for the raids when it was discovered that their possessions from Mecca were being sold in Syria.

As for Sura 50, he illustrates his stance towards the opposition by citing the stories of Noah, Moses, Lot, and the Last Judgement (whatever you want to call it). The tone does shift greatly from Sura 96 but it's no different than the attitude the other Abrahamic faiths take towards unbelievers.

You're welcome to have your opinion regarding how Muhammad went about carrying out these raids and whether or not his actions were justifiable, but know that it is purely speculation.

[The Bos'un]

It is your story, tell it any way you would like. "Mo" was run out of Mecca because of his views and took his followers to Medina. How about the people of the book, they did not run him off? How about the innocents that were savagely slaughtered, the displaced persons, and "Mo's" rationalization of violence against those who did not believe he was a prophet.

What strikes me as odd, "Mo" worship is denied, but, if one would speak against any other prophet of "Mo's" allah, not a whimper of protest is sounded, but, if one speaks against "Mo" all hell breaks loose.

I would venture to say that Mo got it wrong at least part of the time. Maybe it was the Zoroastrians, Jews, and Gentiles fault. :))

[The Bos'un]

A little love from Muhammad's Koranic revelations...

Koran verses 8.12 & 8.13 (http://www.usc.edu/schools/college/crcc/engagement/resources/texts/muslim/quran/008.qmt.html)


008.012
YUSUFALI: Remember thy Lord inspired the angels (with the message): "I am with you: give firmness to the Believers: I will instill terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers: smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off them."

008.013
YUSUFALI: This because they contended against Allah and His Messenger: If any contend against Allah and His Messenger, Allah is strict in punishment.

[The Bos'un]

In response to your defence of Muhammad's caravan raiding, my brother, :

Bernard Lewis writes:
The city of Medina, some 280 miles north of Mecca, had originally been settled by Jewish tribes from the north, especially the Banu Nadir and Banu Quraiza. The comparative richness of the town attracted an infiltration of pagan Arabs who came at first as clients of the Jews and ultimately succeeded in dominating them. Medina, or, as it was known before Islam, Yathrib, had no form of stable government at all. The town was tom by the feuds of the rival Arab tribes of Aus and Khazraj, with the Jews maintaining an uneasy balance of power. The latter, engaged mainly in agriculture and handicrafts, were economically and culturally superior to the Arabs, and were consequently disliked.... as soon as the Arabs had attained unity through the agency of Muhammad they attacked and ultimately eliminated the Jews.2 (http://www.eretzyisroel.org/~peters/medina.html#2) Courtesy of Eretzyisroel.org

[notluzn]

Has anyone replied LOL :)

[The Bos'un]

Would you like to discuss something?