What an amazing Creator that formed this earth with purpose!

[THE LIGHT]

I was just eating some fruit today and could not help but think of how wonderful it is that God made fruits and foods with flavor to them. Can you imagine what it would be like without any flavor to foods. If the world were made by a great big bang and evolved from primortial soup, how would the first life form survive without food? Or what a coincidence, and what would the odds be of both forming at the same time! Next, if we evolved, why did we not evolve to not have to eat food? And again, what a coincidence that plants evolved to provide the exact nutrients we need to survive! Why is sickness and death always present? Wouldn't we have evolved a permanent cure to all sickness, or at least the common cold by now?

Your thoughts?

[NJConservative]

I was just eating some fruit today and could not help but think of how wonderful it is that God made fruits and foods with flavor to them. Can you imagine what it would be like without any flavor to foods. If the world were made by a great big bang and evolved from primortial soup, how would the first life form survive without food? Or what a coincidence, and what would the odds be of both forming at the same time! Next, if we evolved, why did we not evolve to not have to eat food? And again, what a coincidence that plants evolved to provide the exact nutrients we need to survive! Why is sickness and death always present? Wouldn't we have evolved a permanent cure to all sickness, or at least the common cold by now?

Your thoughts?

Yeah, you have a one track mind :)

[Thank you Troops]

All I can say is WOW and Amen. We will have no excuse.

[JStasc08]

I was just eating some fruit today and could not help but think of how wonderful it is that God made fruits and foods with flavor to them. Can you imagine what it would be like without any flavor to foods. If the world were made by a great big bang and evolved from primortial soup, how would the first life form survive without food? Or what a coincidence, and what would the odds be of both forming at the same time! Next, if we evolved, why did we not evolve to not have to eat food? And again, what a coincidence that plants evolved to provide the exact nutrients we need to survive! Why is sickness and death always present? Wouldn't we have evolved a permanent cure to all sickness, or at least the common cold by now?

Your thoughts?

I'd say I'm pretty happy food has flavor, however, I feel it would benefit humans much better if had no flavor at all. Then people would probably eat much healthier with no concern for whether or not the food tastes good to them. As for the evolution, you could say it has missed a few key things in the process while God could have easily created humans immune to diseases and injury, too.

[THE LIGHT]

I'd say I'm pretty happy food has flavor, however, I feel it would benefit humans much better if had no flavor at all. Then people would probably eat much healthier with no concern for whether or not the food tastes good to them. As for the evolution, you could say it has missed a few key things in the process while God could have easily created humans immune to diseases and injury, too.

God did create man without sickness disease or death and will restore it to such, but because of the fall of Adam, death and sickness entered into the world. The greatest thing is that he loves us enough to give us a second chance!

[7ranz]

God did create man without sickness disease or death and will restore it to such, but because of the fall of Adam, death and sickness entered into the world. The greatest thing is that he loves us enough to give us a second chance!
Yes, because of something I didn't commit I have been punished. That's intelligent design for you. There is no designer. From a vast space of lifelessness (with one exception) to cancer to the sewage pipe being the reproductive one....not the most clever designer.

[THE LIGHT]

Yes, because of something I didn't commit I have been punished. That's intelligent design for you. There is no designer. From a vast space of lifelessness (with one exception) to cancer to the sewage pipe being the reproductive one....not the most clever designer.

Adam sinned and ruined it for us not God. But God has given us a way to reverse the curse and it is virtually painless. The path is simple, it is Jesus Christ. For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life (John 3:16). If you accept Jesus you will be restored to the pre-Adamic promise. What else could you want?

[7ranz]

Adam sinned and ruined it for us not God.
So Adam is the one who created the current world? What other powers did Adam have?

Certainly Adam could of been exiled...and we could of gotten the same opportunity he got? Because otherwise we are paying for another's actions.

But God has given us a way to reverse the curse and it is virtually painless. The path is simple, it is Jesus Christ. For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life (John 3:16). If you accept Jesus you will be restored to the pre-Adamic promise. What else could you want?

A non tyrannical system.

The path is...accept and pay for a sin you didn't commit...then believe in some human sacrifice...which assuming the sin was ours to begin with...we have immorally been absolved of our own responsibility's by this 'son' taking the punishment. So the path is do what we tell you even though you had nothing to do with the problem to begin with and you certainly didn't ask for a human sacrifice...because it would be immoral to do so.

[Sketch]

One day, the sun is going to explode. .

[God_is_great]

If the whole world would come to realize that God loved this world and us so much that he allowed his own son to die for our sins that we shall be saved from Hell and live with Jesus in Heaven forever and ever! That is true paradise to me :)

[7ranz]

One day, the sun is going to explode. .

Making the designer apparently less capable...then the Energizer Bunny.

[THE LIGHT]

So Adam is the one who created the current world? What other powers did Adam have?

Certainly Adam could of been exiled...and we could of gotten the same opportunity he got? Because otherwise we are paying for another's actions.

We do have the same opportunity that Adam had, and sadly there are some that chose the same path as Adam. Adam had a choice to walk, talk, and fellowship with God or eat of the fruit that God told him not to, and he chose the latter. We on the other hand have the same two choices. We can chose to accept his redemption and again walk and talk with him (he is a great friend by the way, He is always there for you when others are not), or we can chose the evils of the world. The opportunity is the same, and when you accept Jesus you do not have to accept the sickness of the world. Jesus died and took our sickness on Himself that we might be delivered from the curse of Adam. Having said that, it doesn't mean that the curse of Adam doesn't still exist on this earth. Pain is inevitable, but misery is a choice.


A non tyrannical system.

The path is...accept and pay for a sin you didn't commit...then believe in some human sacrifice...which assuming the sin was ours to begin with...we have immorally been absolved of our own responsibility's by this 'son' taking the punishment. So the path is do what we tell you even though you had nothing to do with the problem to begin with and you certainly didn't ask for a human sacrifice...because it would be immoral to do so.

No one is asking you to pay for your sins unless you reject Christ’s payment for your sins. Just because you don't like what predicament Adam put us in doesn't mean that we can make God disappear. 1John 4:19 says "We love him, because he first loved us." Adam flubbed up, and because God already blessed Adam and Eve and told them to "Be fruitful and multiply" (Genesis 1:28) and because God cannot lie, He could not get rid of Adam's promise which was us (unfortunately, really, I know how you feel, darn that guy), therefore he had to come up with a solution which was Jesus. Accept him as your savior and I guarantee you will be glad you did.

[THE LIGHT]

One day, the sun is going to explode. .

But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. -2Peter 3:10

[7ranz]

We do have the same opportunity that Adam had, and sadly there are some that chose the same path as Adam. Adam had a choice to walk, talk, and fellowship with God or eat of the fruit that God told him not to, and he chose the latter. We on the other hand have the same two choices. We can chose to accept his redemption and again walk and talk with him (he is a great friend by the way, He is always there for you when others are not), or we can chose the evils of the world. The opportunity is the same, and when you accept Jesus you do not have to accept the sickness of the world. Jesus died and took our sickness on Himself that we might be delivered from the curse of Adam. Having said that, it doesn't mean that the curse of Adam doesn't still exist on this earth. Pain is inevitable, but misery is a choice.

You just said we don't have the same opportunity. Remember...death and sickness...

We are blatantly not in the Garden of Eden. We are paying for an action not of our ourselves.

No one is asking you to pay for your sins unless you reject Christ’s payment for your sins.
It would be immoral to accept payment for something I did. I'm not going to send an innocent man to do my time in jail if I did the crime. To accept Christ would be unjust.

Just because you don't like what predicament Adam put us in doesn't mean that we can make God disappear.
Adam got a punishment...that was extended to the innocent who did no such thing. God made everything....not Adam.

1John 4:19 says "We love him, because he first loved us." Adam flubbed up, and because God already blessed Adam and Eve and told them to "Be fruitful and multiply" (Genesis 1:28) and because God cannot lie, He could not get rid of Adam's promise which was us (unfortunately, really, I know how you feel, darn that guy), therefore he had to come up with a solution which was Jesus. Accept him as your savior and I guarantee you will be glad you did.

I have done it. And I was not pleased.

[THE LIGHT]

You just said we don't have the same opportunity. Remember...death and sickness...

Remember, as I said, pain is not an option, that is part of the curse and it exists until Christs return, but misery on the other hand is an option, we can chose not to accept the curse if we accept Christ and have faith in Him.

We are blatantly not in the Garden of Eden. We are paying for an action not of our ourselves.

So you are saying that since you are not currently in the Garden of Eden you won't follow Christ, but if you were you would?


It would be immoral to accept payment for something I did. I'm not going to send an innocent man to do my time in jail if I did the crime. To accept Christ would be unjust.

You just said that it was unjust for you to have to follow the curse of Adam but now you say you don't want accept the just forgivness offered you because you are not worthy. Of course as sinners, we are not worthy, but God realized that we must be given the same oportunity as Adam. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. (1John 1:9)

Adam got a punishment...that was extended to the innocent who did no such thing. God made everything....not Adam.

That is a new definition, I thought everything meant everything. Anyway, God did make man (Adam) (see Genesis 2:7 and 1:26) and because Adam sinned and because he was made to reproduce, we are therefore part of Adams flesh and blood and therefore have inherited the curse. But if we will be born again we will be free from the curse. With the acceptance of Christ we are born anew and are now a new creature in Christ, "old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new." (2Corinthians 5:17)


I have done it. And I was not pleased.

That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. -Romans 10:9

Sometimes people mistake that just confessing with their mouth means accepting him. Salvation comes with a full 180 in your life. You must entirely hand your life back over to him and do what the second part of the verse says, "believe with you heart." This belief is manafest through a genuine fear of the Lord and a following of his word. We have to do the same thing Adam was required to do but failed at and that was when he believed the lie of the serpent saying that he could be his own god. We all as unsaved people aspire to be the rulers of our lives, but that is not how it was in the Garden. Yet, we say if we had the same opportunity that we would accept it. We do have the same opportunity, the question is will we accept it?

[7ranz]

EDIT: I think I steered us off topic....if you would like we can steer this back?



Remember, as I said, pain is not an option, that is part of the curse and it exists until Christs return, but misery on the other hand is an option, we can chose not to accept the curse if we accept Christ and have faith in Him.
That didn't refute the point that we are paying for something we didn't do.

So you are saying that since you are not currently in the Garden of Eden you won't follow Christ, but if you were you would?
No. I'm showing the flaw in the argument. Which is the unjust system of Adams actions= mine.


You just said that it was unjust for you to have to follow the curse of Adam but now you say you don't want accept the just forgivness offered you because you are not worthy.
I know. I was doing it under the assumption that the sin was just...which it isn't. But under the idea that we deserve to pay for someone elses actions (which we don't) it still fails because one is responsible for one's own actions and no one can do your time for you.

Of course as sinners, we are not worthy, but God realized that we must be given the same oportunity as Adam. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. (1John 1:9)
Not worthy of what?

That is a new definition, I thought everything meant everything. Anyway, God did make man (Adam) (see Genesis 2:7 and 1:26) and because Adam sinned and because he was made to reproduce, we are therefore part of Adams flesh and blood and therefore have inherited the curse. But if we will be born again we will be free from the curse. With the acceptance of Christ we are born anew and are now a new creature in Christ, "old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new." (2Corinthians 5:17)
I am not to blame for Adams actions. Did I commit the act? No. I didn't. Thus the acts punishment goes to those who did it. You don't send the son to jail for their dad being a murderer. Doesn't work that way.


That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. -Romans 10:9

Sometimes people mistake that just confessing with their mouth means accepting him. Salvation comes with a full 180 in your life. You must entirely hand your life back over to him and do what the second part of the verse says, "believe with you heart." This belief is manafest through a genuine fear of the Lord and a following of his word. We have to do the same thing Adam was required to do but failed at and that was when he believed the lie of the serpent saying that he could be his own god. We all as unsaved people aspire to be the rulers of our lives, but that is not how it was in the Garden. Yet, we say if we had the same opportunity that we would accept it. We do have the same opportunity, the question is will we accept it?
So like a tyrannical government I 'owe' him something? I must give him something for acts I haven't taken part in? No thanks. I am responsible for my own actions and thus reject the guilt/blame/whatever you want to call it that I am unfairly handed.

We don't have the same opportunity. We already went over this. Adam was not offered a human sacrifice. We are.

[Chuangtzu]

I was just eating some fruit today and could not help but think of how wonderful it is that God made fruits and foods with flavor to them. Can you imagine what it would be like without any flavor to foods. If the world were made by a great big bang and evolved from primortial soup, how would the first life form survive without food? Or what a coincidence, and what would the odds be of both forming at the same time! Next, if we evolved, why did we not evolve to not have to eat food? And again, what a coincidence that plants evolved to provide the exact nutrients we need to survive! Why is sickness and death always present? Wouldn't we have evolved a permanent cure to all sickness, or at least the common cold by now?

Your thoughts?

Like the apple and the banana - unpalatable and inedible w/o human cultivation? Or corn? Or any of the grasses cultivated by human hands, over generations, into edible grains?

[Chuangtzu]

Also: figs, grapes, acorns and olives. Cultivated over generations, or cured and treated (as in the case of acorns, to remove tannins), in order to become edible.

[Jeemie]

<snip>Like the apple and the banana</snip>

LOLOLOL!!!!

You just reminded me again of that film by Ray Comfort and Kirk Cameron, where Ray tries to prove Intelligent Design by pointing to the banana...noting how it peels easily, it is ribbed for easy handling, and curved for easy eating.

It always makes me laugh that he was trying to prove God designed a fruit that WE HAVE CULTIVATED AND SELECTED FOR through the centuries!

:)) :)) :))

[Koushi Shinigami]

Your thoughts?

"Damn it. Not another evolution/creation thread." :rolleyes:

[Late2TheParty]

I was just eating some fruit today and could not help but think of how wonderful it is that God made fruits and foods with flavor to them. Can you imagine what it would be like without any flavor to foods. If the world were made by a great big bang and evolved from primortial soup, how would the first life form survive without food? Or what a coincidence, and what would the odds be of both forming at the same time! Next, if we evolved, why did we not evolve to not have to eat food? And again, what a coincidence that plants evolved to provide the exact nutrients we need to survive! Why is sickness and death always present? Wouldn't we have evolved a permanent cure to all sickness, or at least the common cold by now?

Your thoughts?

The odds of something happening that already happened is obviously 1.

[RedheadedTexan]

But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. -2Peter 3:10

Yes, The bible long ago told what will happen to the earth when the sun becomes a red giant or goes nova. It told this before science even learned it was possible.

[Greyclouds]

LOLOLOL!!!!

You just reminded me again of that film by Ray Comfort and Kirk Cameron, where Ray tries to prove Intelligent Design by pointing to the banana...noting how it peels easily, it is ribbed for easy handling, and curved for easy eating.

It always makes me laugh that he was trying to prove God designed a fruit that WE HAVE CULTIVATED AND SELECTED FOR through the centuries!

:)) :)) :))

Same here :D

I'd love to see Kirk Cameron attempt to eat a pre-selectively bred banana! It would be much like the episode of family guy where Peter was made to eat the pine cone.

"It's awful!"

[Greyclouds]

The odds of something happening that already happened is obviously 1.

Not according to expert statistician Behe.

[JenT]

If the whole world would come to realize that God loved this world and us so much that he allowed his own son to die for our sins that we shall be saved from Hell and live with Jesus in Heaven forever and ever! That is true paradise to me :)
Amen God_is_great, amen!

[JenT]

Same here :D

I'd love to see Kirk Cameron attempt to eat a pre-selectively bred banana! It would be much like the episode of family guy where Peter was made to eat the pine cone.

"It's awful!"

(smile) and thus man is proud because (apparently) he was able to manipulate the shape of a banana, when God created the heavens and earth and all that is in it. That would include the Grand Canyon, and the tiniest detail of the carefully constructed human eye... from the size of the planets which is so hard to comprehend, humbling the earth next to other planets, the expanse of the universe, down to the tiniest microcosm or particle we've ever observed, God is aware of and created.

In fact, what was the reason that protons and neutrons are held together again? The question scientists have long pondered, why the two which are known to be resistant to each other, stay together in an atom?

God.

Oh but man was able to manipulate a banana's shape.

I wonder who's laughing in heaven.

[Jeemie]

Yes, The bible long ago told what will happen to the earth when the sun becomes a red giant or goes nova. It told this before science even learned it was possible.

Uh huh. Right.

OK...I didn't realize that when our sun went nova, the entire universe would melt.

But at least now we know Jesus won't return for another 5 billion years.

[Jeemie]

(smile) and thus man is proud because (apparently) he was able to manipulate the shape of a banana, when God created the heavens and earth and all that is in it. That would include the Grand Canyon, and the tiniest detail of the carefully constructed human eye... from the size of the planets which is so hard to comprehend, humbling the earth next to other planets, the expanse of the universe, down to the tiniest microcosm are particle we've ever observed, God is aware of and created.

In fact, what was the reason that protons and neutrons are held together again? The question scientists have long pondered, why the two which are known to be resistant to each other, stay together in an atom?

God.

Oh but man was able to manipulate a banana's shape.

I wonder who's laughing in heaven.

You really DO have a difficult time accurately analyzing issues, don't you?

[Koushi Shinigami]

(smile) and thus man is proud because (apparently) he was able to manipulate the shape of a banana,


Well, it was pretty important in a couple of movies I was recently watching.....
:drool:



In fact, what was the reason that protons and neutrons are held together again? The question scientists have long pondered, why the two which are known to be resistant to each other, stay together in an atom?



Jen, Jen, Jen. I know you were trying to look all smart and everything. Using chemistry like that. Unfortunately, Protons and Neutrons are not resistant to each other. Protons have a positive charge, neutrons have no charge -- therefore no resistive force to protons. It's ELECTRONS that have a negative charge and are resistant to protons. And guess what!!! Electrons to not touch protons.

:razz:

[JenT]

You really DO have a difficult time accurately analyzing issues, don't you?

That's why I'm here Jeemie, so you can straighten me out... (waiting)

[JenT]

Thank you Koushi!

Now Jeemie can tell me how the two that are supposed to repel stay together...

(at least you know I'm not copy pasting from websites :) )

[Jeemie]

Well, it was pretty important in a couple of movies I was recently watching.....
:drool:




Jen, Jen, Jen. I know you were trying to look all smart and everything. Using chemistry like that. Unfortunately, Protons and Neutrons are not resistant to each other. Protons have a positive charge, neutrons have no charge -- therefore no resistive force to protons. It's ELECTRONS that have a negative charge and are resistant to protons. And guess what!!! Electrons to not touch protons.

:razz:

Whoops! Koushi- ya got it wrong!

LIKE charges repel, not unlike.

But to answer Jen's question, it's obvious from the Bible that since all things hang together in Jesus, that He's the one that holds protons together so the nucleus can't fly apart.

I mean...there's no need to research any further than that, now is there?

[Koushi Shinigami]

Whoops! Koushi- ya got it wrong!

LIKE charges repel, not unlike.

I bow to the correct answer. :)


But to answer Jen's question, it's obvious from the Bible that since all things hang together in Jesus, that He's the one that holds protons together so the nucleus can't fly apart.

I mean...there's no need to research any further than that, now is there?

So THAT'S where Jesus has been for 2000 years. Gotta be a busy guy keeping all that together. So the end of the world will happen when he stops holding it all together?

[Greyclouds]

(smile) and thus man is proud because (apparently) he was able to manipulate the shape of a banana, when God created the heavens and earth and all that is in it. That would include the Grand Canyon, and the tiniest detail of the carefully constructed human eye... from the size of the planets which is so hard to comprehend, humbling the earth next to other planets, the expanse of the universe, down to the tiniest microcosm or particle we've ever observed, God is aware of and created.

In fact, what was the reason that protons and neutrons are held together again? The question scientists have long pondered, why the two which are known to be resistant to each other, stay together in an atom?

God.

Oh but man was able to manipulate a banana's shape.

I wonder who's laughing in heaven.

The human eye, based on the positioning of the optic nerve and the fovea centralis, has a major blind spot. Also, that same human eye can only identify a small subset of radiation in the electromagnetic spectrum.

Not to mention the fact that this very same human eye has numerous inefficient alleles floating around in our species' gene pool that cause debilitating conditions. I have extreme myopia; so much so that the contact lenses I wear have a diopter of -7.50. I would have been an extreme burden to all those around me prior to the human invention of focusing lenses.

[Jeemie]

The human eye, based on the positioning of the optic nerve and the fovea centralis, has a major blind spot. Also, that same human eye can only identify a small subset of radiation in the electromagnetic spectrum.

Not to mention the fact that this very same human eye has numerous inefficient alleles floating around in our species' gene pool that cause debilitating conditions. I have extreme myopia; so much so that the contact lenses I wear have a diopter of -7.50. I would have been an extreme burden to all those around me prior to the human invention of focusing lenses.

But all those allelles are a result of the Fall, don't you see?

I'm beginning to get the attraction of this way of teaching science! Just think of all the hours you could have to goof off or spend with your family and friends, Grey, if you weren't in the lab so much!!

[Greyclouds]

But all those allelles are a result of the Fall, don't you see?

I'm beginning to get the attraction of this way of teaching science! Just think of all the hours you could have to goof off or spend with your family and friends, Grey, if you weren't in the lab so much!!

That is true... think of the trees we'd save too on the reprint of scientific textbooks! Just two pages:

1. Title page

2. Size 24 font: "God did it, move along people, nothing to see here."

[JenT]

The human eye, based on the positioning of the optic nerve and the fovea centralis, has a major blind spot. Also, that same human eye can only identify a small subset of radiation in the electromagnetic spectrum.

Not to mention the fact that this very same human eye has numerous inefficient alleles floating around in our species' gene pool that cause debilitating conditions. I have extreme myopia; so much so that the contact lenses I wear have a diopter of -7.50. I would have been an extreme burden to all those around me prior to the human invention of focusing lenses.

Scholars believe Paul had a serious sight problem as well, can't remember why they thought it was the eyes as the "thorn in the flesh" but nobody knows for sure.

I realize we have many problems with these bodies, they're not perfect, they're finite. But it won't always be this way.

In the balance of time, our lives will be just a short dash between the date of when we were born and when we die. What we choose in that short dash of time, is all that matters. That's what I believe anyway.

[JenT]

That is true... think of the trees we'd save too on the reprint of scientific textbooks! Just two pages:

1. Title page

2. Size 24 font: "God did it, move along people, nothing to see here."

lol, cute

[JenT]

But all those allelles are a result of the Fall, don't you see?

I'm beginning to get the attraction of this way of teaching science! Just think of all the hours you could have to goof off or spend with your family and friends, Grey, if you weren't in the lab so much!!

Or the time you could spend with God :)

[Greyclouds]

Scholars believe Paul had a serious sight problem as well, can't remember why they thought it was the eyes as the "thorn in the flesh" but nobody knows for sure.

I realize we have many problems with these bodies, they're not perfect, they're finite. But it won't always be this way.

In the balance of time, our lives will be just a short dash between the date of when we were born and when we die. What we choose in that short dash of time, is all that matters. That's what I believe anyway.

Why did God create such a transient body, or allow our bodies to become so transient and flawed? Why does he allow us to die still after his physical embodiment walked the earth and died to erase Adam's sin? If he allowed our bodies to "rot" into such disrepair after Adam's "fall," then why didnt he reverse the process after his son's death?

[Jeemie]

Why did God create such a transient body, or allow our bodies to become so transient and flawed? Why does he allow us to die still after his physical embodiment walked the earth and died to erase Adam's sin? If he allowed our bodies to "rot" into such disrepair after Adam's "fall," then why didnt he reverse the process after his son's death?

At least for the believers?

[Jeemie]

Or the time you could spend with God :)

Well- you'd have to do that while you were scrounging for food and making sure you had enough wood for the fire.

Oh wait- since only God makes fire, you'd have to wait for the odd lightning strike to catch a tree nearby on fire.

[Greyclouds]

lol, cute

Gotta earn a living somehow :D

I should think though, on a philosophical level, if God did create us and rule us in this world, yet he tells us that there is a completely separate world apart from this one that lasts forever, would it not make logical sense for us to focus on physical needs in the more immediate reality? Otherwise, the alternative is to reach the eternal reality faster; the most efficient way to do this is to put yourself in harm's way or to severely neglect your physical needs causing death.

Sure its not all black and white like I portray, but if your focus is on the afterlife, then would not it make sense to reach that afterlife sooner? Now PLEASE do NOT take what I said as mandate! I am only pointing out a logical flaw here, and I want you to live a long healthy and productive life!

[captusa]

I was just eating some fruit today and could not help but think of how wonderful it is that God made fruits and foods with flavor to them. Can you imagine what it would be like without any flavor to foods. If the world were made by a great big bang and evolved from primortial soup, how would the first life form survive without food? Or what a coincidence, and what would the odds be of both forming at the same time! Next, if we evolved, why did we not evolve to not have to eat food? And again, what a coincidence that plants evolved to provide the exact nutrients we need to survive! Why is sickness and death always present? Wouldn't we have evolved a permanent cure to all sickness, or at least the common cold by now?

Your thoughts?

Of course the idea that primoidal life fed on the carbon nitrogen and oxygen that was present and as animals evolved one survival advantage was the ability to more efficiently obtain nourishment from the enviroment.
Also if your premise were valid there would not be different tastes for food.
You would find aged rotten meat and blubber as palatable as the Aliutes do and roasted moths as palatable as do many African tribes and find blood and urine a tasty drink like the Masai.

[captusa]

I was just eating some fruit today and could not help but think of how wonderful it is that God made fruits and foods with flavor to them. Can you imagine what it would be like without any flavor to foods. If the world were made by a great big bang and evolved from primortial soup, how would the first life form survive without food? Or what a coincidence, and what would the odds be of both forming at the same time! Next, if we evolved, why did we not evolve to not have to eat food? And again, what a coincidence that plants evolved to provide the exact nutrients we need to survive! Why is sickness and death always present? Wouldn't we have evolved a permanent cure to all sickness, or at least the common cold by now?

Your thoughts?

Your hypothesis makes no sense at all.
How did early man decide what to eat.
How did he decide which plants nourished and which plants tasted good.
Early man must have noticed that eating some of the plants your benevolent Deity generously supplied made people who ate then die and the only way they could find that out was to watch other people die after eating those plants.
Wasn't it nice of you God to make the berries from the deadly night shade look like red currants.
HE must have laughed when HE saw humans eat deadly night shade thinking they tasted like red currants.

[Joenumbertwo]

I was just eating some fruit today and could not help but think of how wonderful it is that God made fruits and foods with flavor to them.

Or our brains and taste buds evolved so we'd taste and enjoy the taste of sugars (which provide high amounts of energy).


Can you imagine what it would be like without any flavor to foods. If the world were made by a great big bang and evolved from primortial soup, how would the first life form survive without food? Or what a coincidence, and what would the odds be of both forming at the same time!

Do you know what photosynthetic or thermophyllic organisms eat?


Next, if we evolved, why did we not evolve to not have to eat food?

Because as sustained chemical reactions, without continuous energy input we'll begin to break down and stop functioning.


And again, what a coincidence that plants evolved to provide the exact nutrients we need to survive!

They didn't, most vegitarians require additional suppliments to keep themselves healthy, and those who use only plants must use plants from various places around the world. Before modern advances in transportation and irrigation, plants did not have all we needed to survive.



Why is sickness and death always present? Wouldn't we have evolved a permanent cure to all sickness, or at least the common cold by now?

No, because they evolve too.

[captusa]

THE LIGHT
Why is sickness and death always present? Wouldn't we have evolved a permanent cure to all sickness, or at least the common cold by now?



No, because they evolve too.


And millions of times faster.

[Jeemie]

Your hypothesis makes no sense at all.
How did early man decide what to eat.
How did he decide which plants nourished and which plants tasted good.
Early man must have noticed that eating some of the plants your benevolent Deity generously supplied made people who ate then die and the only way they could find that out was to watch other people die after eating those plants.
Wasn't it nice of you God to make the berries from the deadly night shade look like red currants.
HE must have laughed when HE saw humans eat deadly night shade thinking they tasted like red currants.

I'm sure that deadly nightshade exists because of the Fall.

C'mon Capt...it's fun to do science this way!

[Reeder]

Why did God create such a transient body, or allow our bodies to become so transient and flawed? Why does he allow us to die still after his physical embodiment walked the earth and died to erase Adam's sin? If he allowed our bodies to "rot" into such disrepair after Adam's "fall," then why didnt he reverse the process after his son's death?


Spirit body ----> Mortal body (+ spirit body) -----> Immortal, resurrected body (+ spirit body - never again to be separated)


That is how God set it up, and that is why we have to die (physically).

Morm. 9: 12

12 Behold, he created Adam, and by Adam came the fall of man. And because of the fall of man came Jesus Christ, even the Father and the Son; and because of Jesus Christ came the redemption of man.

13 And because of the redemption of man, which came by Jesus Christ, they are brought back into the presence of the Lord; yea, this is wherein all men are redeemed, because the death of Christ bringeth to pass the resurrection, which bringeth to pass a redemption from an endless sleep, from which sleep all men shall be awakened by the power of God when the trump shall sound; and they shall come forth, both small and great, and all shall stand before his bar, being redeemed and loosed from this eternal band of death, which death is a temporal death.

[Thor]

If the whole world would come to realize that God loved this world and us so much that he allowed his own son to die for our sins that we shall be saved from Hell and live with Jesus in Heaven forever and ever! That is true paradise to me :)

Maybe if the whole world would come to realize that "god" is a fiction, then Sunnis and Shiites would stop killing each other, Protestants and Catholics would stop killing each other, Muslims would stop killing anyone who isn't a Muslim, and everyone would stop killing Jews. That would be true paradise to me.

[Thor]

Your hypothesis makes no sense at all.
How did early man decide what to eat.
How did he decide which plants nourished and which plants tasted good.
Early man must have noticed that eating some of the plants your benevolent Deity generously supplied made people who ate then die and the only way they could find that out was to watch other people die after eating those plants.
Wasn't it nice of you God to make the berries from the deadly night shade look like red currants.
HE must have laughed when HE saw humans eat deadly night shade thinking they tasted like red currants.

And "god" obviously gave us poison mushrooms and edible mushrooms just to make things interesting...

[JenT]

Well- you'd have to do that while you were scrounging for food and making sure you had enough wood for the fire.

Oh wait- since only God makes fire, you'd have to wait for the odd lightning strike to catch a tree nearby on fire.

Jeemie I already said I marvel along with everyone else at all the medical breakthroughs, unbelievable triumphs of modern technology, it is truly amazing.

It's when you try to prove we came from apes and that the world is bazillions of years old to support it, you fall flat on your faces. Doesn't matter how much money and thousands of pages you write to try to break the fall, or manipulate the definition of "species"; everyone knows what you're tyring to hypothesize (sp?) and there are just no sorta-smart apes running around.

(though I've dated a few cavemen that come close)

[JenT]

Why did God create such a transient body, or allow our bodies to become so transient and flawed? Why does he allow us to die still after his physical embodiment walked the earth and died to erase Adam's sin? If he allowed our bodies to "rot" into such disrepair after Adam's "fall," then why didnt he reverse the process after his son's death?

I have my theories but they aren't Scriptural so they're not worth much.

[JenT]

Well- you'd have to do that while you were scrounging for food and making sure you had enough wood for the fire.

Oh wait- since only God makes fire, you'd have to wait for the odd lightning strike to catch a tree nearby on fire.

Nah, I just ask a man to do it

:)

And then I treat him like the king that he is.

[Jacob_Rising]

I was just eating some fruit today and could not help but think of how wonderful it is that God made fruits and foods with flavor to them. Can you imagine what it would be like without any flavor to foods. If the world were made by a great big bang and evolved from primortial soup, how would the first life form survive without food? Or what a coincidence, and what would the odds be of both forming at the same time! Next, if we evolved, why did we not evolve to not have to eat food? And again, what a coincidence that plants evolved to provide the exact nutrients we need to survive! Why is sickness and death always present? Wouldn't we have evolved a permanent cure to all sickness, or at least the common cold by now?

Your thoughts?I was watching a special on mold and they said for every single species of insects, there is also a distinctive mold that atatcks them all.

It starts growing in an insect until the insect explodes and the mold takes over.

A really interesting program, it was weird how everything had an exact purpose.

They said that if there would be a new type of ant that didn't have it's own distinct type of mold that we would be overun with that type of ant.

Everything that lives has something keeping it in check.

Fish have seal, seals have sharks, sharks have land sharks.

I'm always learning something new about nature just by watching, but then I have too much time on my hands.

I have some type of bird that starts circling my house every evening, a nocternal bird that is constantly making a beeping noise.

I finally figured out that he was using sonar, and I think he hunts dragon flies more than anything.

He is always so high in the air beeping and then he comes swooping down after he knows where everything is.

It's really weird, looks like a sea bird, I wished somebody could tell me the name of it.

There is so much order to the world that it couldn't just be random evolution.

[JenT]

Gotta earn a living somehow :D

I should think though, on a philosophical level, if God did create us and rule us in this world, yet he tells us that there is a completely separate world apart from this one that lasts forever, would it not make logical sense for us to focus on physical needs in the more immediate reality? Otherwise, the alternative is to reach the eternal reality faster; the most efficient way to do this is to put yourself in harm's way or to severely neglect your physical needs causing death.

Sure its not all black and white like I portray, but if your focus is on the afterlife, then would not it make sense to reach that afterlife sooner? Now PLEASE do NOT take what I said as mandate! I am only pointing out a logical flaw here, and I want you to live a long healthy and productive life!

LOL you're concern for me is touching. :)

Ever have a doctor frown at your test results and order expensive tests for cancer? Choke when you ask him if he thinks you have cancer? Rule out everything except cancer?

I have. And even though my kids were young at the time, I figured it was a good time for them to get to know their dad better, because it looked like I was going home. I watched my mom die a slow death on chemo, wasn't going to go that route. (since then I've seen they have improved and it's much better than it used to be).

I can't tell you how comforting it was to look at my life and see the good in going home. My kids needed to know their dad better, he's a good man. Both of my kids, especially the middle son, had already seen God work, so I knew they were secure in Him. And their faith might actually have an impact on their buddhist/new age dad.

I was good with it, didn't even ask anyone to pray for me. If it's my time I'm ready. I AM, however, scared of the process, I mean, what's it feel like to walk through death? The pain of it kinda concerns me but not getting to the other side at all.

I think that's why there are so few descriptions of heaven in the Bible. God doesn't want us checking out early.

So short answer: with every breath that I breathe, I know I'm here 'cause God still has a purpose for me. But when it's time to go, don't nobody pray me back. I had a vision of it once, and just recently, I think it was Fire Watch, said something recently that lined up with what I saw that confused me about what I saw.

BTW, I don't have cancer. God healed me when I was singing praise in church. Sometimes we receive when we don't even ask. It's all about if God wants us to stick it out here a little longer or not.

[Marleysdaddy]

Yes, The bible long ago told what will happen to the earth when the sun becomes a red giant or goes nova. It told this before science even learned it was possible.

Actually, 2 Peter might be wrong (gasp). Astronomers are debating what will happen to Earth when the sun becomes a red giant (I think you meant supernova not nova, and our sun is too small to cause a supernova http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nova & http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supernova) Mercury and Venus will likely be engulfed in the sun as it expands. But the sun will be expanding because it will be losing mass too quickly, and since it's mass is the variable which determines the orbits of the planets, the orbits will expand. Mars will likely survive, as it's expanding orbit will keep it from being engulfed. Earth's fate is still being debated.
http://www.faqs.org/faqs/astronomy/faq/part5/section-8.html

[Marleysdaddy]

I have some type of bird that starts circling my house every evening, a nocternal bird that is constantly making a beeping noise.
I finally figured out that he was using sonar, and I think he hunts dragon flies more than anything.
He is always so high in the air beeping and then he comes swooping down after he knows where everything is.
It's really weird, looks like a sea bird, I wished somebody could tell me the name of it.


I can probably help you...where do you live? Do you ever hear a weird extended buzzing sound as the bird swoops by? If so, it might be a Common Nighthawk.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_nighthawk

[Jacob_Rising]

Why did God create such a transient body, or allow our bodies to become so transient and flawed? Why does he allow us to die still after his physical embodiment walked the earth and died to erase Adam's sin? If he allowed our bodies to "rot" into such disrepair after Adam's "fall," then why didnt he reverse the process after his son's death?He didn't create us flawed or dying.

It was our fall that brought death.

So why didn't we change when Yeshuah was resurected?

IMO, God had ordained a certain amount of people to be born and then to join him in heaven.

Josephus says that the number of people he wants to bring into the kingdom is so large that the world could not sustain all of them at one time.

A large amount of people would also be here who are not saved and who will persecute the rightous in order for the rightous to know God.

Like Israel when they bent their knee to God and pleaded for a saviour.

So a certain amount of time had to pass to let all the people who were to be saved to have a chance to live and die so that others could live, die, and be saved.

When the number of saints is complete that have to be born, live and die.

When that last person is born who is to be saved, then the resurection will happen and immortality comes back. The way it was designed in the garden in the first place.

I only believe that a small percentage of saved people will be allowed back to live on this Earth for a thousand year reign.

I think the large majority die, go to heaven and praise God, and stay there forever but a small majority actually become immortal and are allowed to help rule in that Messianic age on this Earth.

[JenT]

Maybe if the whole world would come to realize that "god" is a fiction, then Sunnis and Shiites would stop killing each other, Protestants and Catholics would stop killing each other, Muslims would stop killing anyone who isn't a Muslim, and everyone would stop killing Jews. That would be true paradise to me.

Sure but then the environmentalist fanatics would have to start killing everybody to save the animals.

<----Carnivores--- :shhh: ---Vegetarians--->

[THE LIGHT]

I am not to blame for Adams actions. Did I commit the act? No. I didn't. Thus the acts punishment goes to those who did it. You don't send the son to jail for their dad being a murderer. Doesn't work that way.


We don't have the same opportunity. We already went over this. Adam was not offered a human sacrifice. We are.

Let's say that a man and his wife (Adam and Eve) jumped out of an airplane without a pa(and for the purpose of the illustration we will extend the duration of the fall). On the way down, they had kids (remeber I said it was a long fall). Now, would the kids be responsible for jumping out of the airplane? Well, of course not, but would they die if no one saved them? I will venture to say yes.

[Mobulis]

Let's say that a man and his wife (Adam and Eve) jumped out of an airplane without a pa(and for the purpose of the illustration we will extend the duration of the fall). On the way down, they had kids (remember I said it was a long fall). Now, would the kids be responsible for jumping out of the airplane? Well, of course not, but would they die if no one saved them? I will venture to say yes.


Except they didn't jump they were pushed.

[THE LIGHT]

Except they didn't jump they were pushed.

Adam jumped. There was no pushing. Eve was persuaded that jumping woud be a good idea but no pushing was involved. In fact, neither Adam nor Eve had a gun to their head.

[JenT]

Let's say that a man and his wife (Adam and Eve) jumped out of an airplane without a parachute (and for the purpose of the illustration we will extend the duration of the fall). On the way down, they had kids (remeber I said it was a long fall). Now, would the kids be responsible for jumping out of the airplane? Well, of course not, but would they die if no one saved them? I will venture to say yes.

LOL awesome demonstration!

I heard an analogy of Adam being like Evander Holyfield going up against Mike Tyson and we're in the audience. If any of us thinks we can do a better job than our contender...

(I like the having babies in this long fall better though, ROFL)

[THE LIGHT]

LOL awesome demonstration!

I heard an analogy of Adam being like Evander Holyfield going up against Mike Tyson and we're in the audience. If any of us thinks we can do a better job than our contender...

(I like the having babies in this long fall better though, ROFL)

I like your analogy too becuase often times we think that we could do so much better, but when offered the chance (Jesus Christ) we turn away.

[JenT]

I like your analogy too becuase often times we think that we could do so much better, but when offered the chance (Jesus Christ) we turn away.

yeah (sheepish laugh) lemme know as soon as crosses are in fashion...

(I don't THINK God would be upset with me admitting I wouldn't be too fast to take His place, definately NOT making light of it!)

[hben]

One day, the sun is going to explode. .

One day, I am going to explode because of all this good food that God created. As the created being, I am trying my best to do my part so all this food won't spoil and rot.

[THE LIGHT]

yeah (sheepish laugh) lemme know as soon as crosses are in fashion...

(I don't THINK God would be upset with me admitting I wouldn't be too fast to take His place, definately NOT making light of it!)

good point!

[THE LIGHT]

One day, I am going to explode because of all this good food that God created. As the created being, I am trying my best to do my part so all this food won't spoil and rot.

:))

[hben]

:))

And let me clarify one thing. I am not eating all of God's good groceries just to get heavenly brownie points. I believe salvation is by grace through faith...not of works. So I don't consider eating to be a work. On the contrary, it is just another way for God to demonstrate His grace. BTW, God told us to be fruitful and multiply, so I am thinking that my wife's garden is one way of fullfilling God's will. I hope no one accuses me of taking scripture out of context. :redface:

[7ranz]

Let's say that a man and his wife (Adam and Eve) jumped out of an airplane without a pa(and for the purpose of the illustration we will extend the duration of the fall). On the way down, they had kids (remeber I said it was a long fall). Now, would the kids be responsible for jumping out of the airplane? Well, of course not, but would they die if no one saved them? I will venture to say yes.

:eh:
Seriously?

That works on absolutely no level. A 'long fall'....you do know you pass out rather quickly right? There would be no kids. Nor kids of kids. Nor kids of kids of kids. That doesn't even make sense. And of course they all would die at the same time. Considering Adam is long dead it would mean these children were birthed after his death....so after he hit the ground (though they would of been birthed at all but setting aside that absurdity)...so it would be like taking those babies back up on the plane and then throwing them out of it. Not only that...considering God can do absolutely anything...he could of easily put the kids back on the plane. That's not a problem for him. And Adam didn't waltz out of the Garden...he was removed...so Adam wouldn't 'jump' out of the plane...he would of hit a stewardess or something and then of been thrown out of the plane. Which still doesn't makes any sense. God created death...in your scenario gravity is already there. It wasn't added after the fact. Amount countless other things. I could go on and on.

Did you make that analogy up yourself? Or did you hear that somewhere else?

[THE LIGHT]

:eh:
Seriously?

That works on absolutely no level. A 'long fall'....you do know you pass out rather quickly right? There would be no kids. Nor kids of kids. Nor kids of kids of kids. That doesn't even make sense.

Remember I said you had to extend the duration of the fall. Because in the analogy, time is insignificant anyway. So yes, as I said there would be kids.


And of course they all would die at the same time. Considering Adam is long dead it would mean these children were birthed after his death....so after he hit the ground (though they would of been birthed at all but setting aside that absurdity)...so it would be like taking those babies back up on the plane and then throwing them out of it. Not only that...considering God can do absolutely anything...he could of easily put the kids back on the plane.

He did, and it is called Jesus. He cannot force his help on any of us though. It is your choice.

That's not a problem for him. And Adam didn't waltz out of the Garden...he was removed...so Adam wouldn't 'jump' out of the plane...he would of hit a stewardess or something and then of been thrown out of the plane. Which still doesn't makes any sense. God created death...in your scenario gravity is already there. It wasn't added after the fact. Amount countless other things. I could go on and on.

Adam rejected God, and somehow we today think that we are somehow different from Adam when we reject God.

Did you make that analogy up yourself? Or did you hear that somewhere else?

What would that matter?

[7ranz]

Remember I said you had to extend the duration of the fall. Because in the analogy, time is insignificant anyway. So yes, as I said there would be kids.
No you pass out. No Kids. Ever. And you can't suspend reality for analogy. Otherwise you are making my point that it is irrational.

He did, and it is called Jesus. He cannot force his help on any of us though. It is your choice.
Even though that ignored the re-throwing them part completely...it still falls short. Their should be no condition for rescue for the children...because they didn't jump or get kicked out.

Adam rejected God, and somehow we today think that we are somehow different from Adam when we reject God.
We reject it out of it being logically inaccurate. There is no God to reject.

What would that matter?

Well if they teach that kind of analogy in Sunday School their will be a lot of new atheists.

[THE LIGHT]

No you pass out. No Kids. Ever. And you can't suspend reality for analogy. Otherwise you are making my point that it is irrational.

The point is Adam fell and any children he had inherited the fall. Jesus is waiting to help you, all you have to do is ask.

Even though that ignored the re-throwing them part completely...it still falls short. Their should be no condition for rescue for the children...because they didn't jump or get kicked out.

We reject it out of it being logically inaccurate. There is no God to reject.


I would like to see one of those children falling try to explain how "this isn't fair" and when Jesus asks to help them they say, "no because I shouldn't be falling." No matter how much or what they deny, it is not going to change their circumstances. They are still falling, and they are going to hit the ground and die if they don't accept the help. They can try to explain that this is part of an evolutionary process, and say "see those birds flying through the air, they evolved wings and so can we." No matter how much they try to evolve wings, they won't.

[Mobulis]

Adam jumped. There was no pushing. Eve was persuaded that jumping would be a good idea but no pushing was involved. In fact, neither Adam nor Eve had a gun to their head.


They did not leave eden voluntarily god booted them out.

[THE LIGHT]

They did not leave eden voluntarily god booted them out.

They made the choice when they disobeyed God. They did not have to disobey God. But they were told not to eat of that fruit. It is very simple really.

[JenT]

I think it's all about choice and consequence. The angels had it. Adam and Eve had it. We have it for now. And God says "choose life."

The only thing that doesn't make sense to me is, some people don't.

[7ranz]

The point is Adam fell and any children he had inherited the fall. Jesus is waiting to help you, all you have to do is ask.
I know. And its immoral. That's my point.

I would like to see one of those children falling try to explain how "this isn't fair" and when Jesus asks to help them they say, "no because I shouldn't be falling." No matter how much or what they deny, it is not going to change their circumstances. They are still falling, and they are going to hit the ground and die if they don't accept the help. They can try to explain that this is part of an evolutionary process, and say "see those birds flying through the air, they evolved wings and so can we." No matter how much they try to evolve wings, they won't.
Your analogy doesn't work.You have suspend every logical reality (time, the human condition, birth order...birth ability....length of the human life, biology). Jesus is the one who created the conditions (as Yahweh). Your analogy doesn't make sense. You're just trying to pass on the blame.

It's simple. Everyone was kicked out of a location without death and disease...not thrown out of a plane. That place is barred from those who did not commit the act. I'm talking about what we are told actually happened...not some sci fi scenario.

[7ranz]

I think it's all about choice and consequence. The angels had it. Adam and Eve had it. We have it for now. And God says "choose life."

The only thing that doesn't make sense to me is, some people don't.

No, God says bow down and praise me for an act you had no part of...and please accept a human sacrifice.

[Chuangtzu]

No, God says bow down and praise me for an act you had no part of...and please accept a human sacrifice.

"...to propiate a sin you did not commit, but for which I've punished you, with eternal damnation, if you don't slavishly adore me."

***

One of the most heinous doctrines ever concocted is the Christian version of "original sin."

[7ranz]

"...to propiate a sin you did not commit, but for which I've punished you, with eternal damnation, if you don't slavishly adore me."

***

One of the most heinous doctrines ever concocted is the Christian version of "original sin."

Most certainly. Not many things are more horrifying then seeing the pain in a mothers eyes when their baby dies before it gets baptized.

Going to hell and all...well it used to be to limbo...but that was removed from catholic doctrine quite recently...

[JenT]

No, God says bow down and praise me for an act you had no part of...and please accept a human sacrifice.

lol, nooooooooOOOOooooooo (GOOOD MORNING 7ranz!)

More like, "I love you so much that I'm going to cover your sin Myself" and comes down and dies for you, must to the shock and curiosity of all the angels in heaven.

[JenT]

You may not know Me, but I know everything about you…
Psalm 139:1

I know when you sit down and when you rise up…
Psalm 139:2

I am familiar with all your ways…
Psalm 139:3

Even the very hairs on your head are numbered…
Matthew 10:29-31

For you were made in My image…
Genesis 1:27

In Me you live and move and have your being…
Acts 17:28

For you are My offspring…
Acts 17:28

I knew you even before you were conceived
Jeremiah 1:4-5

I chose you when I planned creation…
Ephesians 1:11-12

You were not a mistake, for all your days are written in My book…
Psalm 139:15-16

I determined the exact time of your birth and where you would live…
Acts 17:26

You are fearfully and wonderfully made…
Psalm 139:15-16

I knit you together in your mother’s womb
Psalm 139:13

And brought you forth on the day you were born…
Psalm 71:6

I have been misrepresented by those who don’t know Me…
John 8:41-44

I am not distant and angry, but am the complete expression of love…
1 John 4:16

And it is My desire to lavish My love on you simply because you are My child and I am your Father…
1 John 3:1

I offer you more than your earthly father ever could…
Matthew 7:11

For I am the perfect father…
Matthew 5:48

Every good gift that you receive comes from My hand…
James 1:17

For I am your Provider and I meet all your needs…
Matthew 6:31-33

My plan for your future has always been filled with hope…
Jeremiah 29:11

Because I love you with an everlasting love…
Jeremiah 31:3

My thoughts toward you are countless as the sand on the seashore…
Psalm 193:17-18

And I rejoice over you with singing…
Zephaniah 3:17

[JenT]

For you are My treasured possession….
Exodus 19:5

I desire to establish you with all My heart and all My soul
Jeremiah 32:41

And I want to show you great and marvelous things…
Jeremiah 33:3

If you seek Me with all your heart, you will find Me…
Deuteronomy 4:29

Delight in Me and I will give you the desires of your heart…
Psalm 37:4

For it is I who gave you those desires…
Philippians 2:13

I am able to do more for you than you could possibly imagine…
Ephesians 3:20

For I am your greatest encourager…
2 Thessalonians 2:16-17

I am also the Father who comforts you in all your troubles…
2 Corinthians 1:3-4

When you are brokenhearted, I am close to you…
Psalm 34:18

As a shepherd carries a lamb, I have carried you close to My heart…
Isaiah 40:11

One day I will wipe away every tear from your eyes and will take away all the pain you have suffered on this earth
Revelation 21:3-4

I am your Father, and I love you even as I love my Son, Jesus…
John 17:23

For in Jesus, My love for you is revealed…
John 17:26

He is the exact representation of My being…
Hebrews 1:3

He came to demonstrate that I am for you, not against you…
Romans 8:31

And to tell you that I am not counting your sins…
2 Corinthians 5:18-19

Jesus died so that you and I could be reconciled…
2 Corinthians 5:18-19

His death was the ultimate expression of My love for you…
1 John 4:10

I gave up everything I loved that I might gain your love
Romans 8:31-32

If you receive the gift of my Son Jesus, you receive Me…
1 John 2:23

And nothing will ever separate you from My love again…
Romans 8:38-39

Come home and I’ll throw the biggest party heaven has ever seen…
Luke 15:7

I have always been Father, and will always be Father…
Ephesians 3:14-15

My question is… Will you be My child?…
John 1:12-13

I am waiting for you…
Luke 15:11-32

***

[THE LIGHT]

No, God says bow down and praise me for an act you had no part of...and please accept a human sacrifice.

You seem to have a problem with praising God which is the same problem Adam had. There inlies the problem. What difference would it make for you to be in the garden except that you could have your cake and eat it too (i.e. be your own god but still enjoy the pleasure of the garden). Sin brings death, and sin without repentance brings eternal damnation. It is an individual choice that I will continue to urge you and others to reconsider. Jesus loves you and is waiting for you! His question is, will you do the same for him?:hug:

[THE LIGHT]

"...to propiate a sin you did not commit, but for which I've punished you, with eternal damnation, if you don't slavishly adore me."

***

One of the most heinous doctrines ever concocted is the Christian version of "original sin."

Exactly, how dare us be accountable for anything we do, right?;)

[THE LIGHT]

I know. And its immoral. That's my point.

Your analogy doesn't work.You have suspend every logical reality (time, the human condition, birth order...birth ability....length of the human life, biology). Jesus is the one who created the conditions (as Yahweh). Your analogy doesn't make sense. You're just trying to pass on the blame.

It's simple. Everyone was kicked out of a location without death and disease...not thrown out of a plane. That place is barred from those who did not commit the act. I'm talking about what we are told actually happened...not some sci fi scenario.

Then if that is what YOU believe happened what is explaining that no god exists going to do for you? No matter how much and how many people HOPE there is no god, it will not change the circumstances.

[captusa]

Then if that is what YOU believe happened what is explaining that no god exists going to do for you? No matter how much and how many people HOPE there is no god, it will not change the circumstances.

Ditto
Then if that is what YOU believe happened what is explaining that god exists going to do for you?
No matter how much and how many people HOPE there is god, it will not change the circumstances.
The Theistic Deity YHVH aka Jesus, aka Allah aka God the Father aka the Holy Spirit exists only in the minds of the believers.

[Marleysdaddy]

Exactly, how dare us be accountable for anything we do, right?;)

I don't know about you, but I wasn't present in the garden, nor did I eat the fruit or lie about eating the fruit. I have enough to do being accountable for only my own actions, thank you very much ;)

[JenT]

I don't know about you, but I wasn't present in the garden, nor did I eat the fruit or lie about eating the fruit. I have enough to do being accountable for only my own actions, thank you very much ;)

yeah but our great great great grandparents were, and we inherited this planet from them, now given over when they followed satan.

[Jeemie]

yeah but our great great great grandparents were, and we inherited this planet from them, now given over when they followed satan.

So you admit that in your belief system, we ARE being held accountable for the "sins of our fathers"?

Thank you for playing!

[captusa]

Then if that is what YOU believe happened what is explaining that no god exists going to do for you? No matter how much and how many people HOPE there is no god, it will not change the circumstances.


What is believing in imaginary GOD that does not exit going to do for you?
No matter how much and how many people HOPE there IS A God that conforms to their beliefs, it will not change the circumstances.

[THE LIGHT]

So you admit that in your belief system, we ARE being held accountable for the "sins of our fathers"?

Thank you for playing!

Dan 9:16 O Lord, according to all thy righteousness, I beseech thee, let thine anger and thy fury be turned away from thy city Jerusalem, thy holy mountain: because for our sins, and for the iniquities of our fathers, Jerusalem and thy people are become a reproach to all that are about us.

[THE LIGHT]

What is believing in imaginary GOD that does not exit going to do for you?
No matter how much and how many people HOPE there IS A God that conforms to their beliefs, it will not change the circumstances.

There is no gain in "HOPING" for a god to exist. Can you name one? I would be greatly interested to know of one.

[7ranz]

You seem to have a problem with praising God which is the same problem Adam had. There inlies the problem.
It's not the same problem. God spoke with Adam. God hasn't spoken to me at all (and yes I mean verbal language...if I took every text that said it was divine then I would be living in paradox and contradiction)

What difference would it make for you to be in the garden except that you could have your cake and eat it too (i.e. be your own god but still enjoy the pleasure of the garden).
I don't want the Garden. I never said I wanted the Garden. I'm talking about simple justice here.

Sin brings death, and sin without repentance brings eternal damnation.
The story of Adam and Eve is in Genesis...hell is a Christian invention after the fact.

It is an individual choice that I will continue to urge you and others to reconsider. Jesus loves you and is waiting for you! His question is, will you do the same for him?:hug:
I'll follow the first prophet that gets to me. It's fair game between Jesus and Muhammed. I assure you...if I meet either I will certainly convert to the religion of the said Prophet.

It's a safe bet.

[7ranz]

lol, nooooooooOOOOooooooo (GOOOD MORNING 7ranz!)
Good morning. :) (well its night now so Good night!). How are you doing?

More like, "I love you so much that I'm going to cover your sin Myself" and comes down and dies for you, must to the shock and curiosity of all the angels in heaven.

I guess that's one way to pretty up the same action.

[7ranz]

There is no gain in "HOPING" for a god to exist. Can you name one? I would be greatly interested to know of one.

Mental comfort.

[Chuangtzu]

Exactly, how dare us be accountable for anything we do, right?;)

I'm accountable for what some guy did before I was born?

[Marleysdaddy]

There is no gain in "HOPING" for a god to exist. Can you name one? I would be greatly interested to know of one.

Uh, how about hope itself? By some theists' own arguments, if there is no god, then there is nothing after this existence on earth. Believing in a god allows some theists to have hope for eternal life after this carnal existence.

[captusa]

There is no gain in "HOPING" for a god to exist. Can you name one? I would be greatly interested to know of one.

I agree.

There is no gain in EITHER wishing for God to exist or wishing for God not to exist.

One of us will be correct but neither of us will know who BECAUSE WE BOTH WILL BE DEAD.

[geauxtohell]

I was just eating some fruit today and could not help but think of how wonderful it is that God made fruits and foods with flavor to them. Can you imagine what it would be like without any flavor to foods. If the world were made by a great big bang and evolved from primortial soup, how would the first life form survive without food? Or what a coincidence, and what would the odds be of both forming at the same time! Next, if we evolved, why did we not evolve to not have to eat food? And again, what a coincidence that plants evolved to provide the exact nutrients we need to survive! Why is sickness and death always present? Wouldn't we have evolved a permanent cure to all sickness, or at least the common cold by now?

Your thoughts?

My thoughts are it's time for the ever popular Comfort/Cameron Banana Theory of Creation!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aLqQttJinjo

(Thanks Light, that was a great set up!).

[captusa]

My thoughts are it's time for the ever popular Comfort/Cameron Banana Theory of Creation!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aLqQttJinjo

(Thanks Light, that was a great set up!).

Thanks for reminding us of the idiotic original hypothesis and conclusion.
Things tatse good because God created them to taste good just for his favorite pet creation.

[geauxtohell]

Thanks for reminding us of the idiotic original hypothesis and conclusion.
Things tatse good because God created them to taste good just for his favorite pet creation.





I never tire of watching Kirk Cameron looking absolutely silly.

[THE LIGHT]

Mental comfort.

Lol, that's yoga and transendental meditation.:dance:

[THE LIGHT]

I agree.

There is no gain in EITHER wishing for God to exist or wishing for God not to exist.

One of us will be correct but neither of us will know who BECAUSE WE BOTH WILL BE DEAD.

Not the same because as many evo and evo believers on these forums have stated, the reason for rejecting god is that they can be their own god. If God doesn't exist then you can do whatever immoral actions you want without being accountable for them.


*edited to change cannot to can*

[Marleysdaddy]

Not the same because as many evo and evo believers on these forums have stated, the reason for rejecting god is that they cannot be their own god.
You are going to provide a citation if you want me to believe this whopper.

If God doesn't exist then you can do whatever immoral actions you want without being accountable for them.
That is ridiculous - in a society, morality can be a social construct. If your crazy theory were true, every atheist would just steal instead of working.

[geauxtohell]

Not the same because as many evo and evo believers on these forums have stated, the reason for rejecting god is that they cannot be their own god. If God doesn't exist then you can do whatever immoral actions you want without being accountable for them.

That's silly.

If that were a true statement, we wouldn't have laws to govern us. God would directly intercede and punish us for our wickedness.

Painting athiests' beliefs with a broad brush is just as dishonest as when the same is done to Christians.

[captusa]

Not the same because as many evo and evo believers on these forums have stated, the reason for rejecting god is that they cannot be their own god. If God doesn't exist then you can do whatever immoral actions you want without being accountable for them.

You are not being honest again.

Name one person on this forum that has stated their reason for rejecting god is that they cannot be their own god.

I have stated that it does not morality if the only reason for your actions are the reward of heaven or the fear of hell.

I certainly am more truthful than many of the self-proclaimed believers I have known (possibly on this forum.)and haven't murdered any one in weeks.

[Apatriot]

I was just eating some fruit today and could not help but think of how wonderful it is that God made fruits and foods with flavor to them.

Flavor evolved so that some animals would eat plants (i.e. fruits are ways to persuade animals to disperse seeds). Other flavors (such as pepper flavor) evolved so that animals would avoid plants.

Can you imagine what it would be like without any flavor to foods. If the world were made by a great big bang and evolved from primortial soup, how would the first life form survive without food?

The first life form ate the primordial soup.


Or what a coincidence, and what would the odds be of both forming at the same time!

not really.

Next, if we evolved, why did we not evolve to not have to eat food?

Everything needs a fuel source.

And again, what a coincidence that plants evolved to provide the exact nutrients we need to survive!

Actually, we evolved to use the plants.....


Why is sickness and death always present?

Well, sickness, for the most part, is microorganisms feeding off of us. It's evolution. Death is the counterpart to life. Only living things can die.

Wouldn't we have evolved a permanent cure to all sickness, or at least the common cold by now?

The common cold consists of about 200 different viruses. Sicknesses (i.e. viruses and bacteria) evolve faster than we do.

Your thoughts?

You need to take a science course before commenting on science.

[Apatriot]

I'd say I'm pretty happy food has flavor, however, I feel it would benefit humans much better if had no flavor at all. Then people would probably eat much healthier with no concern for whether or not the food tastes good to them.

That's talking as a 21st century human who has too much food available. If you were a hunter-gatherer, the opposite woudl be true. You would need to crave and love the taste of higher calorie items.

As for the evolution, you could say it has missed a few key things in the process while God could have easily created humans immune to diseases and injury, too.

Yep.

[Apatriot]

Most certainly. Not many things are more horrifying then seeing the pain in a mothers eyes when their baby dies before it gets baptized.

Going to hell and all...well it used to be to limbo...but that was removed from catholic doctrine quite recently...

Limbo was never official Catholic doctrine. It was a theory, not dogma or doctrine.

[THE LIGHT]

That's talking as a 21st century human who has too much food available. If you were a hunter-gatherer, the opposite woudl be true. You would need to crave and love the taste of higher calorie items.



Yep.

I never seid that... please change your quote thanks.

[THE LIGHT]

Flavor evolved so that some animals would eat plants (i.e. fruits are ways to persuade animals to disperse seeds). Other flavors (such as pepper flavor) evolved so that animals would avoid plants.

Not all plants need us to eat them but we still do. And how about lettuce?

The first life form ate the primordial soup.

Where did this life form come from? and Why did it need to evolve?

Everything needs a fuel source.

So, somehow evolution stops there. Why? It violates every other law so why not that? Fish can evolve to violate being in water but what makes the fuel source law so sacred?



Actually, we evolved to use the plants.....

You mean we evolved to like the flavors. Why?


Well, sickness, for the most part, is microorganisms feeding off of us. It's evolution. Death is the counterpart to life. Only living things can die.



The common cold consists of about 200 different viruses. Sicknesses (i.e. viruses and bacteria) evolve faster than we do.

Why?

[THE LIGHT]

You are not being honest again.

Name one person on this forum that has stated their reason for rejecting god is that they cannot be their own god.

Sorry, that was a typo, it is the other way around. Good catch.:hug:

[THE LIGHT]

That's silly.

If that were a true statement, we wouldn't have laws to govern us. God would directly intercede and punish us for our wickedness.

Painting athiests' beliefs with a broad brush is just as dishonest as when the same is done to Christians.

Tell me where an athiests laws come from. If I am the god of my life I can do what I want. What is wrong? What is evil? Why is killing bad? Why is it wrong?

[THE LIGHT]

You are going to provide a citation if you want me to believe this whopper.

I said that one backwards, gonna have to change it. Thanks for catching it.:hug:


That is ridiculous - in a society, morality can be a social construct. If your crazy theory were true, every atheist would just steal instead of working.

One word: Communism

[JenT]

I said that one backwards, gonna have to change it. Thanks for catching it.:hug:




One word: Communism

:)) :)) :))

[THE LIGHT]

Not the same because as many evo and evo believers on these forums have stated, the reason for rejecting god is that they can be their own god. If God doesn't exist then you can do whatever immoral actions you want without being accountable for them.


*edited to change cannot to can*

Revised.

[captusa]

Revised.

You are still being dishonest.
...Not the same because as many evo and evo believers on these forums have stated, the reason for rejecting god is that they can be their own god
...


Name one poster that has stated their reason for rejecting god is that they can be their own god.

[captusa]

Tell me where an athiests laws come from. If I am the god of my life I can do what I want. What is wrong? What is evil? Why is killing bad? Why is it wrong?

The laws of society were developed so that humans could live together for mutual survival long before the God that you assume is the only true God was ever conceived but don't let reality interfer with your opinions.
It never has in the past.

I bet most of the Atheists on this forum haven't killed anybody in weeks.
There were laws against murder and theft long before your God was ever worshipped.
Buddhists don't believe in any God that orders them but thay don't even kill animals.
Hindu societies had laws against murder and they did not believe in any Gods that told them right from wrong.
Where did their laws come from?

[THE LIGHT]

You are still being dishonest.



Name one poster that has stated their reason for rejecting god is that they can be their own god.

Look at Sketch's statement for instance: "My Brain is my shepherd"

[THE LIGHT]

The laws of society were developed so that humans could live together for mutual survival long before the God that you assume is the only true God was ever conceived but don't let reality interfer with your opinions.
It never has in the past.

I bet most of the Atheists on this forum haven't killed anybody in weeks.
There were laws against murder and theft long before your God was ever worshipped.
Buddhists don't believe in any God that orders them but thay don't even kill animals.
Hindu societies had laws against murder and they did not believe in any Gods that told them right from wrong.
Where did their laws come from?

You didn't answer my question. What is wrong with killing? And Why should we not kill?

[captusa]

You didn't answer my question. What is wrong with killing? And Why should we not kill?

It is reasonable if man cannot survive without forming groups to hunt and protect themselves from predators it would not have taken a genius or a God to figure out that not allowing people to kill each other was a good idea.

[Greyclouds]

Look at Sketch's statement for instance: "My Brain is my shepherd"

So Sketch implies that his own brain determines his reality? Or perhaps did this statement indicate that he uses logic to dictate what to believe in? The context of this quote would have helped to clear up confusion here.

Any other posters that you can list? I'm interested to see how many more "darwinists" subscribe to ET just so that they can be their own god.

[Greyclouds]

You didn't answer my question. What is wrong with killing? And Why should we not kill?

Rule of reciprocity. In the case of living in communities where not all human beings are immediately related, it makes social sense not to kill other human beings that live proximal to yourself, or else they will kill you or your family.

Bonobos follow this rule, yet maintain extensive social systems and communities that are composed of members who are not directly related to each other. Did God send his commandments to their species as well?

[geauxtohell]

Tell me where an athiests laws come from. If I am the god of my life I can do what I want. What is wrong? What is evil? Why is killing bad? Why is it wrong?

You act like the simple concepts of respecting others' life and property is quantum physics that man would have never figured out if not revealed to him by Jewish law (and thus Christian and Islamic).

By your logic, non-Abrahamic religions would be anarchic and chaotic.

By your logic, our laws would not include clauses that were never in the bible (like freedom of speech, religion, etc).

[THE LIGHT]

You act like the simple concepts of respecting others' life and property is quantum physics that man would have never figured out if not revealed to him by Jewish law (and thus Christian and Islamic).

By your logic, non-Abrahamic religions would be anarchic and chaotic.

By your logic, our laws would not include clauses that were never in the bible (like freedom of speech, religion, etc).

Let me ask again, if there is no religion, what is wrong with killing? Why is wrong?

[geauxtohell]

Let me ask again, if there is no religion, what is wrong with killing? Why is wrong?

Ethically:

Because you deprive someone of their most basic possession.

Pragmatically:

Because it means the family of the person you killed will come to kill you and your family.

Again, the concept of respecting life and property are not unique to Christianity. Virtually every religion from Greek Polytheism to Buddhism tells/told it's adherents not to steal/kill.

Why do you suppose that is?

[7ranz]

Let me ask again, if there is no religion, what is wrong with killing? Why is wrong?

And it is this kind of thinking that scares me. There are some, apparently, that would go around killing people if there were no celestial daddy to watch over them. Killing, raping, stealing is wrong...because it inflicts unnecessary suffering and pain upon innocent individuals and groups. Among other reasons.

Now, a question for you...would you kill if there were no God?

[Marleysdaddy]

Let me ask again, if there is no religion, what is wrong with killing? Why is wrong?

If people are good only because they fear punishment, and hope for reward, then we are a sorry lot indeed - Albert Einstein

[captusa]

Let me ask again, if there is no religion, what is wrong with killing? Why is wrong?

How many times does it have to be explained to you?
It is to the mutual benefit of society if members of that society not to kill each other and humans needed to be part of a society to survive.
Early humans (and prides of lions and wolf packs) did not need a God or religion to figure that out.
You would be a pretty poor specimen of humanity if the only reason you don't pillage and murder is because God tells you not to.
Why don't all Atheists pillage and kill if they do not fear the rath of God?
Do you assume that all the self proclaimed Atheists on this forum assume there is nothing wrong with murdering people?
FYI I believe it is wrong to murder people (The Bible says thou shalt not murder in the original Hebrew) because it would be harmful to the whole of civilization and I benefit from civilization.

[Marleysdaddy]

Let me ask again, if there is no religion, what is wrong with killing? Why is wrong?

Google 'Kant and Categorical Imperative'

[Apatriot]

I never seid that... please change your quote thanks.

My apologies--and I have changed it. Your info was in my clipboard, and I accidentally pasted it instead of the correct person.

[Apatriot]

Not all plants need us to eat them but we still do. And how about lettuce?

Lettuce has almost no nutritional value. It was undoubtedly developed by human selection.



Where did this life form come from? and Why did it need to evolve?



So, somehow evolution stops there. Why? It violates every other law so why not that? Fish can evolve to violate being in water but what makes the fuel source law so sacred?

Movement requires energy (fuel). Evolution doesn't allow for transcending physical laws. God could transcend physical laws, so the real question is why didn't God transcend physical laws and allow us to live without food.





You mean we evolved to like the flavors. Why?

Flavors attract us to things that are calorie dense. That is why most of us like sweet, fatty foods.



Why?

Bacteria and viruses evolve faster because their life cycle is faster. Bacteria reproduce in a matter of an hour. Hence, the chances of a beneficial mutation in a period of time increase. Our generation time is usually at least 13 yrs. That is almost 114,000 bacterial generations (assuming 1 hr generation time).

The thing is that any argument for evolution can be used as arguments for God's creation. I recognize that, and that is why creationism is not scientific. Anything can be attributed to "well, God wanted it that way." That's not a rational answer (yes, it may be true, but it's not rational).

I do believe in God, but I don't believe that God specially created the creatures on earth. The God I believe in would have done a much better job than some of the jury-rigged, half-assed creatures that exist. Hence, that is why I beleive God used evolution as His major method.

[Apatriot]

Tell me where an athiests laws come from. If I am the god of my life I can do what I want. What is wrong? What is evil? Why is killing bad? Why is it wrong?


I'm Christian, but honestly, most of the Ten Commandments (with the exception of the ones involving our worship of God) are pretty common sense. Logic tells you that a social creature would want rules that help a society to exist. Not killing, stealing, lying, coveting, cheating, etc. make for a better society. On a rational level, killing is bad because allowing uncontrolled killing would reduce cooperation. Social creatures need to cooperate to survive. Human babies could not live without a society (which at the minimum is a nuclear family of two parents and a child).

[Apatriot]

It is reasonable if man cannot survive without forming groups to hunt and protect themselves from predators it would not have taken a genius or a God to figure out that not allowing people to kill each other was a good idea.

Exactly. Wolves and lions don't kill members of their own pack/pride.

[Apatriot]

Ethically:

Because you deprive someone of their most basic possession.

Pragmatically:

Because it means the family of the person you killed will come to kill you and your family.

Again, the concept of respecting life and property are not unique to Christianity. Virtually every religion from Greek Polytheism to Buddhism tells/told it's adherents not to steal/kill.

Why do you suppose that is?

Some would say because Natural law is infused into our souls by God.

[Marleysdaddy]

Lettuce has almost no nutritional value. It was undoubtedly developed by human selection
yep.

The lettuce that we see today actually started out as a weed around the Mediterranean basin. Served in dishes for more than 4500 years, lettuce has certainly made its mark in history- as seen from tomb paintings in Egypt to the depiction of many different varieties in ancient Greek relics. Christopher Columbus introduced lettuce to the new world
This is very interesting...
Lettuce is a fat free, low calorie food. It is a valuable source of vitamin A and folic acid. Lactucarium (or “Lettuce Opium”) is a mild opiate-like substance that is contained in all types of lettuce. Both the Romans and Egyptians took advantage of this property eating lettuce at the end of a meal to induce sleep.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lettuce

The God I believe in would have done a much better job than some of the jury-rigged, half-assed creatures that exist.
:))

[captusa]

Exactly. Wolves and lions don't kill members of their own pack/pride.

And without having to have God explaining it to them or having to join a church.
Do you know of any humans are not that smart?

[geauxtohell]

Some would say because Natural law is infused into our souls by God.

Maybe, but that is an opinion and can't be quantified either way.

The next question after that is, which God?

[geauxtohell]

Lettuce has almost no nutritional value. It was undoubtedly developed by human selection.

Movement requires energy (fuel). Evolution doesn't allow for transcending physical laws. God could transcend physical laws, so the real question is why didn't God transcend physical laws and allow us to live without food.

Flavors attract us to things that are calorie dense. That is why most of us like sweet, fatty foods.

Bacteria and viruses evolve faster because their life cycle is faster. Bacteria reproduce in a matter of an hour. Hence, the chances of a beneficial mutation in a period of time increase. Our generation time is usually at least 13 yrs. That is almost 114,000 bacterial generations (assuming 1 hr generation time).

The thing is that any argument for evolution can be used as arguments for God's creation. I recognize that, and that is why creationism is not scientific. Anything can be attributed to "well, God wanted it that way." That's not a rational answer (yes, it may be true, but it's not rational).

I do believe in God, but I don't believe that God specially created the creatures on earth. The God I believe in would have done a much better job than some of the jury-rigged, half-assed creatures that exist. Hence, that is why I beleive God used evolution as His major method.

Great post. The biochemical answer for why salad and greens have little nutritional value for us is that we lack the enzyme cellulase in our G.I. tract which (if I remember correctly) is reponsible for cleaving beta linkages in the simple sugars that make up cellulose.

Herbivores have cellulase which is why they subsist on a diet of cellulose and not proteins (we have many enzymes that break down fats and proteins).

That being said, cellulose is still important for our diet as roughage to keep the pipes clean. It serves a purpose, though it has little nutritional value (other than folic acid).

[geauxtohell]

I'm Christian, but honestly, most of the Ten Commandments (with the exception of the ones involving our worship of God) are pretty common sense. Logic tells you that a social creature would want rules that help a society to exist. Not killing, stealing, lying, coveting, cheating, etc. make for a better society. On a rational level, killing is bad because allowing uncontrolled killing would reduce cooperation. Social creatures need to cooperate to survive. Human babies could not live without a society (which at the minimum is a nuclear family of two parents and a child).

Which explains why most cultures that are not of abrahamic descent have or had similar laws.

The golden rule is common sense.

[Tim]

Maybe, but that is an opinion and can't be quantified either way.

The next question after that is, which God?

Judging by the actions of the typical 18 year old male I'd venture a guess of........... Aphrodite. :dance:

[geauxtohell]

Judging by the actions of the typical 18 year old male I'd venture a guess of........... Aphrodite. :dance:

Seriously. Thank you testosterone. The cause for most of my bad decisions in life.

[Tim]

Seriously. Thank you testosterone. The cause for most of my bad decisions in life.

:)) :)) No doubt about it!

[captusa]

Which explains why most cultures that are not of abrahamic descent have or had similar laws.

The golden rule is common sense.

The Golden Rule is a positive rephrasing of a much older directive.
Do not do unto others what you would not have done unto you.

[darknessesedge]

what is really amazing is if he pays attention to anything that goes on

[THE LIGHT]

If people are good only because they fear punishment, and hope for reward, then we are a sorry lot indeed - Albert Einstein

We are a sorry lot indeed. And we all need Christ.

[JenT]

We are a sorry lot indeed. And we all need Christ.

Well He's MINE.

[JenT]

and I'm starting to get real territorial lately... :)

[THE LIGHT]

I'm Christian, but honestly, most of the Ten Commandments (with the exception of the ones involving our worship of God) are pretty common sense. Logic tells you that a social creature would want rules that help a society to exist. Not killing, stealing, lying, coveting, cheating, etc. make for a better society. On a rational level, killing is bad because allowing uncontrolled killing would reduce cooperation. Social creatures need to cooperate to survive. Human babies could not live without a society (which at the minimum is a nuclear family of two parents and a child).

You will never ever ever get every person to act like a utopiod and to think in a similar fashion all humming the same mantra "harmony...harmony...harmony." Communism already tried that one and led to the deaths of 100 million people in the 20th century. France already tried to uplift “reason” which lead to their bloody revolution.

[Marleysdaddy]

France already tried to uplift “reason” which lead to their bloody revolution.

Some other country uplifted "reason" before France and also had a bloody revolution...in fact, that country's revolution is partly why the French revolted...who could that country be? :think:

[Apatriot]

You will never ever ever get every person to act like a utopiod and to think in a similar fashion all humming the same mantra "harmony...harmony...harmony." Communism already tried that one and led to the deaths of 100 million people in the 20th century. France already tried to uplift “reason” which lead to their bloody revolution.


Are you trying to say that following the Ten Commandments is irrelevant, as an attempt to get everyone to think alike? I thought Christianity wanted to encourage loving our neighbor? Did I miss the message in my 42 yrs of being Christian? Should I try not to get everyone to love one another? Hmm, I've always thought that the idea of Christianity is utopia--the utopia of the Kingdom of Heaven.

My point was that most of the Ten Commandments are good ideas. Almost every society, religious or not, has similar rules. They just make good sense. However, I do also think that most societies have people that don't obey rules. They are (and should be) punished for that disobedience.

[THE LIGHT]

Some other country uplifted "reason" before France and also had a bloody revolution...in fact, that country's revolution is partly why the French revolted...who could that country be? :think:

War and murder are two different things. Some people never get that.;)

[THE LIGHT]

Are you trying to say that following the Ten Commandments is irrelevant, as an attempt to get everyone to think alike? I thought Christianity wanted to encourage loving our neighbor? Did I miss the message in my 42 yrs of being Christian? Should I try not to get everyone to love one another? Hmm, I've always thought that the idea of Christianity is utopia--the utopia of the Kingdom of Heaven.

My point was that most of the Ten Commandments are good ideas. Almost every society, religious or not, has similar rules. They just make good sense. However, I do also think that most societies have people that don't obey rules. They are (and should be) punished for that disobedience.

Ten Commandments came from what? Couldn't be God could it? :think: Every other religion has tried to copy them since.

They are of no effect if you are atheistic since every athiest is the god of their universe.

[Jeemie]

You will never ever ever get every person to act like a utopiod and to think in a similar fashion all humming the same mantra "harmony...harmony...harmony." Communism already tried that one and led to the deaths of 100 million people in the 20th century. France already tried to uplift “reason” which lead to their bloody revolution.

This is a complete red herring.

So what? That doesn't change the fact that most of those rules are commonsense, and don't require a deity to reveal them.

[geauxtohell]

War and murder are two different things. Some people never get that.;)

Yeah, one is individually sanctioned and thus illegal and the other is state sanctioned and a-okay.

There is no good war. Necessary, perhaps, but not good.

[Jeemie]

Ten Commandments came from what? Couldn't be God could it? :think: Every other religion has tried to copy them since.

They are of no effect if you are atheistic since every athiest is the god of their universe.

These rules existed in human societies long before the 10 Commandments came around.

[geauxtohell]

Ten Commandments came from what? Couldn't be God could it? Every other religion has tried to copy them since.


That's a bogus statement.

Please show me anything that indicates that any other non-abrahamic religion has tried to copy the ten commandments.

[7ranz]

France already tried to uplift “reason” which lead to their bloody revolution.

One certainly wouldn't accuse Robespierre of being all that reasonable.

[captusa]

Ten Commandments came from what? Couldn't be God could it? :think: Every other religion has tried to copy them since.

They are of no effect if you are atheistic since every athiest is the god of their universe.

Did Egypt have rules against murder before the Ten Commandments?

Wasn't Moses fleeing Egypt for killing an Egyptian task master?
Was that before or after God gave Moses the Ten Commandments and Egypt copied them?
You're the one that follows the Bible.

[Tim]

Ten Commandments came from what? Couldn't be God could it? :think: Every other religion has tried to copy them since.

They are of no effect if you are atheistic since every athiest is the god of their universe.

Neither of these statements make sense to me. Could you elaborate on them and provide some kind of evidence?

I'm unaware of other religions who have tried to copy the ten commandments (although the 10 C's are certainly similar to the Code of Hammurabi which predated the 10 C's by several hundred years... the CofH wasn't even the earliest).

And as far as any atheist being 'the god' of his universe... that just seems silly and nonsensical since an atheist is very much aware of his humanity and doesn't hold himself up as being better/more powerful/greater than any other humans. A "god"? Not hardly.

[captusa]

War and murder are two different things. Some people never get that.;)

Especially the ones that get killed.

[THE LIGHT]

Yeah, one is individually sanctioned and thus illegal and the other is state sanctioned and a-okay.

There is no good war. Necessary, perhaps, but not good.

No one said war was a good thing. But as long as evil exists in the world, war will too.

[captusa]

No one said war was a good thing. But as long as evil exists in the world, war will too.

You never responded to the fact that most of the rules of society preceded the 10 Commandments by a few thousand years.
Damn clever those pagans copying the 10 Commandments centuries and millenia before God gave them to Moses.
And somehow everybody didn't murder each other before that.

[geauxtohell]

No one said war was a good thing. But as long as evil exists in the world, war will too.

As long as man exists, war will exist. That doesn't make it a moral or just enterprise.

Now I'd like to see you respond to the fact that society governed itself long before the ten commandments (not to mention the fact that the non-Abrahamic religions have the same standards).

[THE LIGHT]

You never responded to the fact that most of the rules of society preceded the 10 Commandments by a few thousand years.
Damn clever those pagans copying the 10 Commandments centuries and millenia before God gave them to Moses.


I know that the dating of Hammurabi is controversial but even if it is valid, the law of Moses demanded more humane treatment for slaves, gave higher regard for womanhood, and placed greater value upon human life in general. Looking at the Code of Hammurabi, the only way it works is to command an eye for an eye, but it only shifts the fear from a god to a weapon. Whoever has a bigger weapon determines what the law is and how it is interpreted.

And somehow everybody didn't murder each other before that.

Actually no that is why there was a flood.

The earth also was corrupt before God, and the earth was filled with violence. And God looked upon the earth, and, behold, it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted his way upon the earth. -Genesis 6:11 -12

[captusa]

Captusa
Quote:
And somehow everybody didn't murder each other before that.

The above questioned the idea that you presented that there were laws against murder before the 10 Commandments.





Actually no that is why there was a flood.

The earth also was corrupt before God, and the earth was filled with violence. And God looked upon the earth, and, behold, it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted his way upon the earth. -Genesis 6:11 -12

It is really amusing how you feebly try to rationalize history to fit your belief.
First you said there was no law before Moses got the 10 Commandments and other religions adapted the 10 Commandments.
Utterly ridiculous!
Now you maintain there was no murder from the time Noah got off the boat until God gave Moses the 10Commandments And if God didn't tell people not to murder in the 10 Commandments.
That would imply that nobody would have thought of murder if God didn't tell people not to do it.
There were cases in the Bible telling of murder between the time of Noah and Moses.

Why don't you just be honest and admit you were wrong when you insisted that murder and theft would not have been considered wrong without the Bible?

Societies worked quite well before and murder was considered wrong long before anyone recognized the existance of your Deity.
Half the world still doesn't recognize your Deity.

It looks like you might not be a real Christian and just posting this nonsense to hold genuine intelligent Christians up to ridicule by association.

[captusa]

....

They are of no effect if you are atheistic since every athiest is the god of their universe.

IOW You believe that I, an Atheist, believe I created the heavens and the earth.
You found me out.
I wanted to keep it a secret.

[THE LIGHT]

.

The above questioned the idea that you presented that there were laws against murder before the 10 Commandments.



[B][COLOR="Orange"]It is really amusing how you feebly try to rationalize history to fit your belief.
First you said there was no law before Moses got the 10 Commandments and other religions adapted the 10 Commandments.
Utterly ridiculous!

I don't believe I ever said that there was no law, but if I did I do appologize.

Why is it that those laws didn't do any good when Stalin and Mau whent on their killing sprees?

Now you maintain there was no murder from the time Noah got off the boat until God gave Moses the 10Commandments And if God didn't tell people not to murder in the 10 Commandments.
That would imply that nobody would have thought of murder if God didn't tell people not to do it.
There were cases in the Bible telling of murder between the time of Noah and Moses.

I never stated that, and I would appreciate your honesty.;)

I never said that there was no murders from Noah until Moses. In fact, I believe quite the opposite. There have been murders throughout time from Adam to present day, and they will continue until satan is bound and cast into the pit of hell for ever more, Amen!

Why don't you just be honest and admit you were wrong when you insisted that murder and theft would not have been considered wrong without the Bible?

Wrong on what basis? What if I don't feel that it is wrong? What is "wrong"?

Societies worked quite well before and murder was considered wrong long before anyone recognized the existance of youer Deity.

Rome, Sodom and Gomorrah...etc.... :think: if that is what you define as "quite well"


Half the world still doesn't recognize your Deity.

...strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it. -Matthew 7:14

It looks like you might not be a real Christian and just posting this nonsense to hold genuine intelligent Christians up to ridicule by association.

You really don't have to stoop that low. After all you are the one that believes Christianity is a pharse. So there would be no such thing as a true Christian now would there? That is unless you are trying to play the troll game. ;)

[JenT]

whoah, captusa, what is with you tonight? Suddenly you're accusing The Light of insincerity? Did you have a bad day?

[JenT]

You never responded to the fact that most of the rules of society preceded the 10 Commandments by a few thousand years.
Damn clever those pagans copying the 10 Commandments centuries and millenia before God gave them to Moses.
And somehow everybody didn't murder each other before that.

captusa have you lost it? God was here since the beginning. Remember those long talks with Adam, the father of all peoples? Do ya think maybe Adam passed on some of those commands to his kids and grandkids, which by the way would be MANY generations of direct contact because Adam lived so long.

What the Bible conveys is all about the reality of the history of the planet. That other cultures and ancient writings that predate Abraham also have corrupted versions of the same events is not a surprise.

God's Chosen people from Abraham on down were the best at recording it, might have been part of the reason God chose them in the first place and gave so much direct instruction.

[geauxtohell]

captusa have you lost it? God was here since the beginning. Remember those long talks with Adam, the father of all peoples? Do ya think maybe Adam passed on some of those commands to his kids and grandkids, which by the way would be MANY generations of direct contact because Adam lived so long.

What the Bible conveys is all about the reality of the history of the planet. That other cultures and ancient writings that predate Abraham also have corrupted versions of the same events is not a surprise.

God's Chosen people from Abraham on down were the best at recording it, might have been part of the reason God chose them in the first place and gave so much direct instruction.

Or maybe the flying spheghetti monster did it........

You are entitled to believe what you want to believe, but you believe as an article of faith.

If you can't accept that other don't share your faith, than you have a long road ahead of you.

More succinctly, an athiest, hindu, or buddist does not consider themselves subpar or un-rightous simply because they don't adhere to your particular beliefs about God.

[Marleysdaddy]

Rome, Sodom and Gomorrah...etc.... :think: if that is what you define as "quite well"


1) Rome was not around before your deity
2) You apparently have no idea how indebted to the Romans you, and all of Western Civilization, are.
2) Nice cherry-picking - but what about the Egyptians, the Chinese, the Indus River Valley peoples? (personally I think the latter did fairly well, seeing as how they are the progenitors of all Indo-Europeans)

[captusa]

captusa have you lost it? God was here since the beginning. Remember those long talks with Adam, the father of all peoples? Do ya think maybe Adam passed on some of those commands to his kids and grandkids, which by the way would be MANY generations of direct contact because Adam lived so long.

What the Bible conveys is all about the reality of the history of the planet. That other cultures and ancient writings that predate Abraham also have corrupted versions of the same events is not a surprise.

God's Chosen people from Abraham on down were the best at recording it, might have been part of the reason God chose them in the first place and gave so much direct instruction.


I do not dismiss the religious beliefs of others but I argue historical and scientific contradictions.

The idea of an innate morality programmed into the genes of humans and other social animals is an interesting topic whether it is attributed to racial memory back to Adam or someting else.

All ideas are worth entertaining but the single statement that all morality stems from the 10 Commandments as was specifically implied is stupid.
BTW I would have said racial memory was a science fiction concept until I saw my first Pit-Bull react to the 1st Pit-Bull he met.

[captusa]

You really don't have to stoop that low. After all you are the one that believes Christianity is a pharse. So there would be no such thing as a true Christian now would there? That is unless you are trying to play the troll game. ;)

When did I ever state that Christianity is a farce?
I disagree with all Theism's but I have never called any of them farces or attacked the faith of believers. (Until I got on this forum I didn't realize that I was such a moderate Atheist.)

I know and admire many Christians I met and I know of no educated person of any faith that would make some of the statements that you do.
Christians on this board have said that some of the ideas you presented would be reasons to abandon theism.
I even commented to one person that opinions of misguided theists was no reason to abandon a religion.

[captusa]

I don't believe I ever said that there was no law, but if I did I do appologize.

...I never stated that, and I would appreciate your honesty.;)

I never said that there was no murders from Noah until Moses. In fact, I believe quite the opposite. There have been murders throughout time from Adam to present day, and they will continue until satan is bound and cast into the pit of hell for ever more, Amen!


Here is the conversation:

Quote:
Originally Posted by captusa
You never responded to the fact that most of the rules of society preceded the 10 Commandments by a few thousand years.
Damn clever those pagans copying the 10 Commandments centuries and millenia before God gave them to Moses.

This did not respond to the fact that murder was considered wrong before th 10 Commandments.
I know that the dating of Hammurabi is controversial but even if it is valid, the law of Moses demanded more humane treatment for slaves, gave higher regard for womanhood, and placed greater value upon human life in general. Looking at the Code of Hammurabi, the only way it works is to command an eye for an eye, but it only shifts the fear from a god to a weapon. Whoever has a bigger weapon determines what the law is and how it is interpreted.


Quote:
And somehow everybody didn't murder each other before that.
The above statement referred to your implication that murder was not considered wrong before God handed down the 10 Commandments.




And this was your response to my question of why as you claimed laws against murder were started by the 10 Commandments.
Actually no that is why there was a flood.

The earth also was corrupt before God, and the earth was filled with violence. And God looked upon the earth, and, behold, it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted his way upon the earth. -Genesis 6:11 -12
.
.

[JenT]

okay, this is what I wrote:

Originally Posted by JenT
captusa have you lost it? God was here since the beginning. Remember those long talks with Adam, the father of all peoples? Do ya think maybe Adam passed on some of those commands to his kids and grandkids, which by the way would be MANY generations of direct contact because Adam lived so long.

What the Bible conveys is all about the reality of the history of the planet. That other cultures and ancient writings that predate Abraham also have corrupted versions of the same events is not a surprise.

God's Chosen people from Abraham on down were the best at recording it, might have been part of the reason God chose them in the first place and gave so much direct instruction.

and then you wrote:

Or maybe the flying spheghetti monster did it........

You are entitled to believe what you want to believe, but you believe as an article of faith.

If you can't accept that other don't share your faith, than you have a long road ahead of you.

geauxto, I'm not the one bringing up spagetti monsters because I can't accept another's faith

More succinctly, an athiest, hindu, or buddist does not consider themselves subpar or un-rightous simply because they don't adhere to your particular beliefs about God.

and who said they did? (looking at what I wrote and back at what you wrote) where do you get this stuff?

[free2B]

Or maybe the flying spheghetti monster did it........

You are entitled to believe what you want to believe, but you believe as an article of faith.

If you can't accept that other don't share your faith, than you have a long road ahead of you.

More succinctly, an athiest, hindu, or buddist does not consider themselves subpar or un-rightous simply because they don't adhere to your particular beliefs about God.

may the flying spheghetti monster provide you with all the meatballs you care to eat geaux!

[free2B]

I do not dismiss the religious beliefs of others but I argue historical and scientific contradictions.

The idea of an innate morality programmed into the genes of humans and other social animals is an interesting topic whether it is attributed to racial memory back to Adam or someting else.

All ideas are worth entertaining but the single statement that all morality stems from the 10 Commandments as was specifically implied is stupid.
BTW I would have said racial memory was a science fiction concept until I saw my first Pit-Bull react to the 1st Pit-Bull he met.

and the reaction was?

[captusa]

may the flying spheghetti monster provide you with all the meatballs you care to eat geaux!

Quicker than your Deity fills my wine decanter.

[captusa]

and the reaction was?

As as pup my dog acted submissive.
At about 4-5 mos old he saw a large adult male Pit in Central Park and went charging at it growling and snarling.
The other dog looked happy (I describe it as like a, proud uncle) and just slapped my pup like a tennis ball.
My pup wasn't actually attacking but his reaction was totally different than his reaction to any other breed.
When he was 12 mos he broke a choke chain to get at another Pit.
Never actively aggressive to any other breed.
Actually let a German Shepherd leave 5 slashes in his flank while was playing with it and all he did was just keep licking the shephard's face.

[geauxtohell]

may the flying spheghetti monster provide you with all the meatballs you care to eat geaux!

He actually didn't. There goes my faith.

Oh wait, "blessed are those who do not see and still believe".

I guess I will go on believing.

[captusa]

bump:

Originally Posted by THE LIGHT
You really don't have to stoop that low. After all you are the one that believes Christianity is a pharse. So there would be no such thing as a true Christian now would there? That is unless you are trying to play the troll game.
I still resent your statement that I believe Christianity is a farce.

I consider that to be an attack on my character.

Would you back up your statement or apologize.
and learn how to spell "farce"

BTW I wasn't the only one that suggested your responses couldn't be serious or that Christians resented you expressing that your beliefs as typical of Christians

[THE LIGHT]

bump:



I consider that to be an attack on my character.

Would you back up your statement or apologize.
and learn how to spell "farce"

It wouldn't even matter if I new how to spell the word because what I meant was false not farce. My bad on that.:hug:

BTW I wasn't the only one that suggested your responses couldn't be serious or that Christians resented you expressing that your beliefs as typical of Christians

Would you back this up.

[THE LIGHT]

Flavor evolved so that some animals would eat plants (i.e. fruits are ways to persuade animals to disperse seeds). Other flavors (such as pepper flavor) evolved so that animals would avoid plants.

How did the plants know which flavors the animals would like/dislike? :think:

[7ranz]

How did the plants know which flavors the animals would like/dislike? :think:

They didn't.

You don't know how natural selection works do you? Please explain if you do because if you did you would never ask such a question. Ever.

Don't constantly attack a theory if you don't even know what it is...it's embarrassing.

[geauxtohell]

How did the plants know which flavors the animals would like/dislike? :think:

More like the animals followed the plants.

You know, like the basic food pyramid?

[Marleysdaddy]

Would you back this up.

Certainly...my parents are Christians, and while they wouldn't resent you for your views, they would definitely disagree that your views were typical of Christians.

[graatz]

Tell me where an athiests laws come from.

You mean secular law? The willing submission to governance in accordance with our survival need of community?

If I am the god of my life I can do what I want.

Perhaps if you were a god this would be true. I can't say for certain what abilities get extended to you by becoming a god. If you are a god and want to fly, can you grant yourself that power? Meanwhile, an atheist does not believe in any gods. We generally have a firm understanding of limits and capabilities.

What is wrong?

In what context?

What is evil?

A term that moral philosophers like to toss around? A label based on a system of ethics?

Why is killing bad?

Do you even define it as bad in all cases? In self-defense? In the field of war? In general, that we don't kill each other is rooted in our survival need for community.

Why is it wrong?

In what context?

[geauxtohell]

Do you even define it as bad in all cases? In self-defense? In the field of war? In general, that we don't kill each other is rooted in our survival need for community.


They don't. They have already provided the caveat for war. Even Christ himself didn't condemn the soldier for being a warrior, he only told him not to abuse his power on the battlefield/occupation zone.

Thus, if you are an athiest you can ascribe to a strict belief that all killing is wrong.

As a Christian, even I have to admit that it is not scriptually supported.

Ironic when stacked against all of the "athiests are evil" comments by Christians.

[captusa]

It wouldn't even matter if I new how to spell the word because what I meant was false not farce. My bad on that.:hug:
. .

Originally Posted by THE LIGHT
You really don't have to stoop that low. After all you are the one that believes Christianity is a pharse. So there would be no such thing as a true Christian now would there? That is unless you are trying to play the troll game.
You are the one of the world's most pathetic rationalizers.

Are you saying you meant to say:

"After all you are the one that believes Christianity IS A PHALSE."?

:)):)):)):))

[QUOTE]Would you back this up.

I guess I don't have to since another Christian stated that presenting your ideas as typical of Christians to be objectionable.

I'll wait for the Christians on the board to verify that they made those objections. .

[THE LIGHT]

. .

Originally Posted by THE LIGHT
You really don't have to stoop that low. After all you are the one that believes Christianity is a pharse. So there would be no such thing as a true Christian now would there? That is unless you are trying to play the troll game.
You are the one of the world's most pathetic rationalizers.

Are you saying you meant to say:

"After all you are the one that believes Christianity IS A PHALSE."?

:)):)):)):))

What would I do with out you Capt? :hug::hug::hug::hug:



I guess I don't have to since another Christian stated that presenting your ideas as typical of Christians to be objectionable.

I'll wait for the Christians on the board to verify that they made those objections. .

Great way to squirm out of that one.;)

[THE LIGHT]

In what context?

What context would you like? When is wrong right?

[THE LIGHT]

Certainly...my parents are Christians, and while they wouldn't resent you for your views, they would definitely disagree that your views were typical of Christians.

From what you say, maybe I would say the same of them so it would be a wash I guess.;)

[THE LIGHT]

More like the animals followed the plants.

You know, like the basic food pyramid?

O great, another one of those circles, like the rocks dating the fossils.

My response was to someone who said the plants adapted so the animals would/wouldn't like to eat them and now you say that the animals followed the plants. Which one is it?

[geauxtohell]

O great, another one of those circles, like the rocks dating the fossils.

My response was to someone who said the plants adapted so the animals would/wouldn't like to eat them and now you say that the animals followed the plants. Which one is it?

Actually both.

If you will notice, we don't all share the same diet. You can try to survive with greens as the bulk of your diet, but you will die malnourished. Cows can survive on greens. They have cellulase and can derive nutrition from hay that we can't break down.

Certain things that are noxious to one animal are the staple of another animals diet.

We've all evolved to our diet based on what was available and what we could digest or could not digest.

At the same times, plants evolve and try to protect themselves or even encourage being eaten (fruits) in order to perpetuate themselves.

The biological arms race never stops.........

[THE LIGHT]

Actually both.

If you will notice, we don't all share the same diet. You can try to survive with greens as the bulk of your diet, but you will die malnourished. Cows can survive on greens. They have cellulase and can derive nutrition from hay that we can't break down.

Certain things that are noxious to one animal are the staple of another animals diet.

We've all evolved to our diet based on what was available and what we could digest or could not digest.


But somehow, we cannot evolve so that we don't have to eat. :think:

[THE LIGHT]

Interesting man has been trying to fly for centuries but somehow we have not grown wings. :think:


http://www.silkwaterwords.com/images/Man%20with%20wings%20copy%20II.jpg

[THE LIGHT]

They didn't.

You don't know how natural selection works do you? Please explain if you do because if you did you would never ask such a question. Ever.

Don't constantly attack a theory if you don't even know what it is...it's embarrassing.

Sorry to embarrass you, but I do ask hard questions from time to time.:dance:

So if the plant has to evolve to get the animals to eat it in order to disperse the seeds then the plants would have all died long before they evolved with out any seeds dispersed. :doh:

[geauxtohell]

But somehow, we cannot evolve so that we don't have to eat. :think:

Of course not. That violates all of the laws of thermodynamics.

Um, you do know about the laws of thermodynamics don't you?

[geauxtohell]

Interesting man has been trying to fly for centuries but somehow we have not grown wings. :think:


Always nice when you make non sequiturs that demonstrate that you know absolutely nothing about what the theory of evolution is or isn't.

[captusa]

Sorry to embarrass you, but I do ask hard questions from time to time.:dance:

So if the plant has to evolve to get the animals to eat it in order to disperse the seeds then the plants would have all died long before they evolved with out any seeds dispersed. :doh:

All plants and animals did not evolve simultaneously.
Dispersal of seeds by animals and birds is not the only way plants spread.
Learn a little biology so you don't sound so ignorant when you ask stupid questions.

[THE LIGHT]

All plants and animals did not evolve simultaneously.
Dispersal of seeds by animals and birds is not the only way plants spread.
Learn a little biology so you don't sound so ignorant when you ask stupid questions.

Smart things sound foolish when they fall on fools ears.;)

[THE LIGHT]

Always nice when you make non sequiturs that demonstrate that you know absolutely nothing about what the theory of evolution is or isn't.

Can't answer it can you?;)

[THE LIGHT]

Of course not. That violates all of the laws of thermodynamics.

Um, you do know about the laws of thermodynamics don't you?

Your laws of thermodynamics or the scientific laws of thermodynamics? I know both, but I prefer the second.

[free2B]

All plants and animals did not evolve simultaneously.
Dispersal of seeds by animals and birds is not the only way plants spread.
Learn a little biology so you don't sound so ignorant when you ask stupid questions.

why are evos always the only intellengent people on the boards:liar:

[THE LIGHT]

why are evos always the only intellengent people on the boards:liar:

Because they said so.

[free2B]

Because they said so.

and that makes it so:hand:

[7ranz]

Sorry to embarrass you, but I do ask hard questions from time to time.:dance:
Hard? No. It is extremely easy. Thus my answer 'they didn't'. That's not even remotely what natural selection says. At all.

So if the plant has to evolve to get the animals to eat it in order to disperse the seeds then the plants would have all died long before they evolved with out any seeds dispersed. :doh:
It evolves into the state of needed animals in order to eat it to exist...it doesn't start off that way. Animals eating it was a quicker way to spread the seed and thus those that tasted better spread their seeds more efficiently then those who didn't.

[THE LIGHT]

Hard? No. It is extremely easy. Thus my answer 'they didn't'. That's not even remotely what natural selection says. At all.

It evolves into the state of needed animals in order to eat it to exist...it doesn't start off that way. Animals eating it was a quicker way to spread the seed and thus those that tasted better spread their seeds more efficiently then those who didn't.


And how did it know what they liked?

[7ranz]

Interesting man has been trying to fly for centuries but somehow we have not grown wings. :think:


http://www.silkwaterwords.com/images/Man%20with%20wings%20copy%20II.jpg

You are so stuck on that thinking into biological attribute thing...that's not how it works. Plants don't think themselves genetic abilities and neither do people.

[7ranz]

And how did it know what they liked?

It didn't know what they liked. It's a plant. It doesn't think.

[Marleysdaddy]

And how did it know what they liked?

It's trial and error, so to speak, over tens of thousands if not millions of generations.

[graatz]

What context would you like? When is wrong right?

What's wrong in one context might be right in another. How about answering the question? :eh:

[geauxtohell]

Can't answer it can you?;)

Sure, but the implied question is so absurd that I feel silly doing it.

Evolution is not directional. That means it doesn't matter what organisms want. I really want to be filthy rich, but I am not going to evolve into the winning powerball ticket.

A silly example, but only slightly moreso than what you posted.

If organisms could influence evolution directly, it would lead to a species that had all of the beneficial phenotypes and none of the deficient ones. We see in color but our sense of smell is a fraction of canine's whose vision is basically black and white. I'd really like to be able to see in color, UV, and IR as some arthropods and vipers do (they eacy have UV or IR, not all three types), but it doesn't really matter what I want.

Secondly evolution is slow change over millions of years. It's not like you can really want wings your whole life and expect your body to sprout them.

Again, these matters are so basic to the theory that it demonstrates that you don't really understand what you are argueing against.

[Marleysdaddy]

why are evos always the only intellengent people on the boards:liar:

is it because we can spell 'intelligent'?

[geauxtohell]

Your laws of thermodynamics or the scientific laws of thermodynamics? I know both, but I prefer the second.

1.) You don't "know both", because I don't have my own laws of thermodynamics. That would be nice. I'd get rid of the first one for myself and watch the rest of you suckers languish. Either that or inadvertently destroy the world. One or the other.

2.) How could you know the laws of thermodynamics and question why we have to have a metabolism system?

Seriously?

[Jeemie]

Your laws of thermodynamics or the scientific laws of thermodynamics? I know both, but I prefer the second.

There's three.

[geauxtohell]

There's three.

I think he was refering to "the Scientific Laws of Thermodynamics versus "our" laws of thermodynamics.

As if there is a difference. No doubt this all boils down to the hokey entropy arguement creationists know and love but anyone who knows the difference between a closed and open system knows is bunk.

[THE LIGHT]

What's wrong in one context might be right in another. How about answering the question? :eh:

I don't know, you would have to give me an instance that wrong is right.

[THE LIGHT]

2.) How could you know the laws of thermodynamics and question why we have to have a metabolism system?

Seriously?

Because evolutionists claim that things can break the law sometimes and not others. Just trying to figure out when it is acceptable. And which scientific laws we are aloud to break.

[geauxtohell]

Because evolutionists claim that things can break the law sometimes and not others. Just trying to figure out when it is acceptable. And which scientific laws we are aloud to break.

No, you don't understand the laws of thermodynamics. Are you going to shoot me full of the "you can't make a more ordered system out of disorder because it violates the 2nd law of thermodynamics!"?

Yeah, I've seen that one before.

Here's a question for you, do you ever straighten your desk up? How do you manage to do so without violating the 2nd law of thermodynamics?

[THE LIGHT]

It's trial and error, so to speak, over tens of thousands if not millions of generations.

What brains those plants had.;)

[THE LIGHT]

No, you don't understand the laws of thermodynamics. Are you going to shoot me full of the "you can't make a more ordered system out of disorder because it violates the 2nd law of thermodynamics!"?

Yeah, I've seen that one before.

Here's a question for you, do you ever straighten your desk up? How do you manage to do so without violating the 2nd law of thermodynamics?

Because it takes "ordered" energy to do it. Great question. And if I threw a bomb on my desk I don't think I would find everything back in order. And the sun has been shining on it for a while but everything still remains as is.

[Jeemie]

I don't know, you would have to give me an instance that wrong is right.

Killing someone...wrong in one context...right in another.

[Jeemie]

Because it takes "ordered" energy to do it. Great question. And if I threw a bomb on my desk I don't think I would find everything back in order. And the sun has been shining on it for a while but everything still remains as is.

Explain how the existence of ordered energy violates the 2nd law of Thermodynamics.

[geauxtohell]

Because it takes "ordered" energy to do it. Great question. And if I threw a bomb on my desk I don't think I would find everything back in order. And the sun has been shining on it for a while but everything still remains as is.

What's "ordered" energy?

[captusa]

why are evos always the only intellengent people on the boards:liar:

There is an obvious correlation.
I am glad you noticed it.
First we have the observation.
Next we create a hypothesis that would explain the correlation and examine that hypothesis and seek a causal relation.
Then we will be able to have a theory as to why evos are always the only intelligent people on the board.
Now you can understand how a scientific theory is developed.

[captusa]

Because it takes "ordered" energy to do it. Great question. And if I threw a bomb on my desk I don't think I would find everything back in order. And the sun has been shining on it for a while but everything still remains as is.

There are adiabatic reversiable reactions.
In an explosion all of the energy released is not lost to the system.
The energy supplied to the human body through metabolizing food is what you discribe as ordered energy.
The sun supplies energy to the plants.
That energy facilitates the process by which simple compounds like H2O, CO2 and N2 are transformed into far more complex molecules like amino acids and carbohydrates.

BTW The 2nd Law of Thermodynamics is called the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics because as was pointed out to you before there is a 1st Law of Thermodynamics.
You can't just pick your misunderstanding of the 2nd law and completely ignore the 1st law.

Also I recall several extremely difficult proofs involving entropy that I had to study when I took physical chemistry.
(Most of the class did not have enough calculus to completely understand the proofs so we had to catch upi on double and triple integration to keep up.)
Have you taken many advanced physics and calculus courses so that you can really understand the concept of entropy or are you just parroting the garbage Discovery Institute spouts since they have know that their audience is ignorant enough to accept it?

[captusa]

Because evolutionists claim that things can break the law sometimes and not others. Just trying to figure out when it is acceptable. And which scientific laws we are aloud(allowed):)) to break.

Is lysergic acid and lactic acid and sucrose and glucose and dextrose more complex than water, carbon dioxide and nitrogen.
How are water, carbon dioxide and nitrogen become protein and carbohydrates without violating the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics.
How is hydrogen and oxygen combined to make the more complicated molecule called water without violating the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics.
If you can't explain the above then you might not understand any laws of thermodynamics.

You are ever increasingly amusing in your attempts to sound reasonable citing concepts you do not understand.

[captusa]

Originally Posted by free2B
why are evos always the only intellengent people on the boards



Because they said so.

Pay attention!
free2B asked why evos always the only intellengent people on the boards.
Is he an evo?

[captusa]

Your laws of thermodynamics or the scientific laws of thermodynamics? I know both, but I prefer the second.

You can't pick one law of thermodynamics and ignore all other facts about thermodynamics.
It sounds like you believe the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics invalidates the 1st Law of Thermodynamics.
It doesn't work that way.:naughty::naughty:

[THE LIGHT]

You can't pick one law of thermodynamics and ignore all other facts about thermodynamics.

Exactly!

[THE LIGHT]

Pay attention!
free2B asked why evos always the only intellengent people on the boards.
Is he an evo?

You did not notice the nose did you.;)

[THE LIGHT]

There is an obvious correlation.
I am glad you noticed it.
First we have the observation.
Next we create a hypothesis that would explain the correlation and examine that hypothesis and seek a causal relation.
Then we will be able to have a theory as to why evos are always the only intelligent people on the board.
Now you can understand how a scientific theory is developed.

Then you discover with further research that they are not and you revise your hypothesis.

[captusa]

Then you discover with further research that they are not and you revise your hypothesis.

If that unlikely event occurs of course we would change the hypothesis and abandon the theory.
BTW Do you know what your IQ is?
You never did answer the question about your highest level of education.
FYI I do not have any doctorates and only a few B.A.s, B.S.s, M.A.s and M.S.s.
(Math, Chemistry, Education)

[THE LIGHT]

If that unlikely event occurs of course we would change the hypothesis and abandon the theory.
BTW Do you know what your IQ is?
You never did answer the question about your highest level of education.
FYI I do not have any doctorates and only a few B.A.s, B.S.s, M.A.s and M.S.s.
(Math, Chemistry, Education)

I thought that I already did, but again, no doctorates, but BS and MS.

[JenT]

Pay attention!
free2B asked why evos always the only intellengent people on the boards.
Is he an evo?

what are you talking about? I'm intelligent!

I just didn't know that a phligamathon reduxed by the sclimazoract creates a prestigmator to the floraximon.

sheesh

[graatz]

I don't know, you would have to give me an instance that wrong is right.

To a Christian (or at least most of them), polygamy is wrong for us today but was right for King David.:naughty:

[captusa]

what are you talking about? I'm intelligent!

I just didn't know that a phligamathon reduxed by the sclimazoract creates a prestigmator to the floraximon
sheesh

Intelligence and ignorance are not mutually exclusive.
If a person is intelligent he or she can correct ignorance.
It might make you more secure if you learned about phligamathons being reduxed by the sclimazoract creating a prestigmator to the floraximon.

[captusa]

I thought that I already did, but again, no doctorates, but BS and MS.

In what subjects from what schools?(please don't say math, physics or biology)

[hillplus]

In what subjects from what schools?(please don't say math, physics or biology)

Don't answer that, Light.

More education does not necessarily add up to more truth.

[captusa]

Don't answer that, Light.

More education does not necessarily add up to more truth.

Correct but less education does not add up to more truth either.

[free2B]

Intelligence and ignorance are not mutually exclusive.
If a person is intelligent he or she can correct ignorance.
It might make you more secure if you learned about phligamathons being reduxed by the sclimazoract creating a prestigmator to the floraximon.

and then you can use her definition capt. to clarify evolutionary theory:think:

[free2B]

Is lysergic acid and lactic acid and sucrose and glucose and dextrose more complex than water, carbon dioxide and nitrogen.
How are water, carbon dioxide and nitrogen become protein and carbohydrates without violating the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics.
How is hydrogen and oxygen combined to make the more complicated molecule called water without violating the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics.
If you can't explain the above then you might not understand any laws of thermodynamics.

You are ever increasingly amusing in your attempts to sound reasonable citing concepts you do not understand.

if you can explain it please do capt.

[free2B]

Pay attention!
free2B asked why evos always the only intellengent people on the boards.
Is he an evo?

nope

[Marleysdaddy]

More education does not necessarily add up to more truth.

it does not guarantee it, but it certainly improves your chances...

[Haplo]

LOLOLOL!!!!

You just reminded me again of that film by Ray Comfort and Kirk Cameron, where Ray tries to prove Intelligent Design by pointing to the banana...noting how it peels easily, it is ribbed for easy handling, and curved for easy eating.

It always makes me laugh that he was trying to prove God designed a fruit that WE HAVE CULTIVATED AND SELECTED FOR through the centuries!

:)) :)) :))Actually the banana does prove intelligent design....it's just that the intelligence behind it is human.

[hillplus]

it does not guarantee it, but it certainly improves your chances...

Hey, I am all for higher education. I disliked the way the thread was going.
'My dad can beat up your dad.'

'I am better than you because I have more letters behind my name.'

I don't believe we have a complete picture of anything and feeling superior doesn't make our position more correct.

BTW, I am not a young earth, evolution hating person.