Is Satan the god of this world?

[Alaric]

I've heard many say it, including some here, the Bible teaches it in 2 Cor 4:4, A google search turns up hundreds of Christian websites teaching it, some claim Christ taught it. How many believe this and why?

[ROBERTENEAL]

Satan usurped the position of governorship that man was supposed to have.

The human race was created to have a limited amount of dominion on the earth, subject to the ultimate authority of God.

The human race traded the type of wisdom that went along with knowing God for a lower level of reasoning which the Bible refers to as the "knowledge of good and evil", which places a greater emphasis on instant gratification.

To make a long story short, man forfeited his dominion. Satan was there to usurp the low level dominion that man was supposed to have. I don't think that it is accurate to say that Satan absolutely controls the world's political, social, and religious system, but he certainly wields a lot of influence.

It is a bit like an owner / renter type of relationship. God still owns the house (the earth), but the house has an unwanted renter in it who is facing eviction. There are legalities involved however.

I wrote an OP a while back called "God's landlord-tenant act":

My wife and I work in the apartment management business. We know that there are good renters and there are bad renters. It is not always easy to keep the good ones and it is often difficult to get rid of the bad ones. The laws prohibit landlords from throwing tenants out in the street on a whim. There is a process that involves documentation of lease violations and subsequent notices that involves time, legal action and paper work before you can get rid of people who disregard the rules of the community. And the work is not over once these people have been evicted. There is usually a lot of work to restoring an apartment that has had bad renters. Doors that have been punched or kicked need to be replaced, damaged appliances need to be repaired, scratched and marked walls need to be painted, ruined carpet and vinyl needs to be replaced, etc.

The Earth has had a bad renter for thousands of years. He goes by a lot of names; Lucifer, Ol' Slewfoot, the Deceiver, Satan, etc. He will be evicted after a long list of lease violations has transpired. He is raising Hell because he knows that he has been served noticed, so he will do all the damage he can until he is booted out of the door.

Then there will be a multi lateral renovation process when the real owner (the Lord) takes possession of this planet.

Part of this renovation will be geographic in nature. Catastrophic seismic activity will occur before and during the return of Christ. High areas will be lowered and low areas will rise (Isaiah 40). A seismic split will create a channel for water to flow from the Mediterranean Sea to the Dead Sea (Ezekiel 47).

The world's government will receive an overhaul. Christ will rule and reign (Rev.20). There will be a judgement of the nations (Matt.25).

But even after Christ reigns for one thousand years, the renovation will still not be complete. The old disgruntled tenant of this planet will return to stir up trouble one more time, and he will gain a lot of human support (Rev. 20). After a short rebellion, Satan and his followers will be evicted for once and for all.

The Earth will then be purified with fire and totally restored (2 Peter 3). This burning will be so intense that it will be of cosmic proportions, it will necessitate a new Heaven and a New Earth (Rev21). This world will finally be prepared for eternal occupancy.

[DRS]

John 14:30*I shall not speak much with YOU anymore, for the ruler of the world is coming. And he has no hold on me,

John 12:31*Now there is a judging of this world; now the ruler of this world will be cast out.

1 John 5: 19*We know we originate with God, but the whole world is lying in the [power of the] wicked one

There is a few passages that back up the thought about Satan ruling the world for now

[CaptainPike]

Satan isn't the God of this world. But some people could interpret the following as meaning that satan is the prince of this world:

John 12:31 (NIV)
Now is the time for judgement on this world; now the prince of this world will be driven out.

[cbut1]

Satan usurped the position of governorship that man was supposed to have.

The human race was created to have a limited amount of dominion on the earth, subject to the ultimate authority of God.

The human race traded the type of wisdom that went along with knowing God for a lower level of reasoning which the Bible refers to as the "knowledge of good and evil", which places a greater emphasis on instant gratification.

To make a long story short, man forfeited his dominion. Satan was there to usurp the low level dominion that man was supposed to have. I don't think that it is accurate to say that Satan absolutely controls the world's political, social, and religious system, but he certainly wields a lot of influence.

It is a bit like an owner / renter type of relationship. God still owns the house (the earth), but the house has an unwanted renter in it who is facing eviction. There are legalities involved however.

I wrote an OP a while back called "God's landlord-tenant act":

My wife and I work in the apartment management business. We know that there are good renters and there are bad renters. It is not always easy to keep the good ones and it is often difficult to get rid of the bad ones. The laws prohibit renters from throwing tenants out in the street on a whim. There is a process that involves documentation of lease violations and subsequent notices that involves time, legal action and paper work before you can get rid of people who disregard the rules of the community. And the work is not over once these people have been evicted. There is usually a lot of work to restoring an apartment that has had bad renters. Doors that have been punched or kicked need to be replaced, damaged appliances need to be repaired, scratched and marked walls need to be painted, ruined carpet and vinyl needs to be replaced, etc.

The Earth has had a bad renter for thousands of years. He goes by a lot of names; Lucifer, Ol' Slewfoot, the Deceiver, Satan, etc. He will be evicted after a long list of lease violations has transpired. He is raising Hell because he knows that he has been served noticed, so he will do all the damage he can until he is booted out of the door.

Then there will be a multi lateral renovation process when the real owner (the Lord) takes possession of this planet.

Part of this renovation will be geographic in nature. Catastrophic seismic activity will occur before and during the return of Christ. High areas will be lowered and low areas will rise (Isaiah 40). A seismic split will create a channel for water to flow from the Mediterranean Sea to the Dead Sea (Ezekiel 47).

The world's government will receive an overhaul. Christ will rule and reign (Rev.20). There will be a judgement of the nations (Matt.25).

But even after Christ reigns for one thousand years, the renovation will still not be complete. The old disgruntled tenant of this planet will return to stir up trouble one more time, and he will gain a lot of human support (Rev. 20). After a short rebellion, Satan and his followers will be evicted for once and for all.

The Earth will then be purified with fire and totally restored (2 Peter 3). This burning will be so intense that it will be of cosmic proportions, it will necessitate a new Heaven and a New Earth (Rev21). This world will finally be prepared for eternal occupancy.


Well said good Sir.

[Chuangtzu]

One hopes. One sincerely hopes.

[mgifford]

I've heard many say it, including some here, the Bible teaches it in 2 Cor 4:4, A google search turns up hundreds of Christian websites teaching it, some claim Christ taught it. How many believe this and why?

Yes that's true but he isn't god of the earth. He leads people into sin and makes them think what they do is ok, then he slams their fingers in the "cookie jar". The Earth Is The Lord's And The Fulness Thereof. God owns the earth and satan has authority to be king of the kingdom of this world.

[Poisonshady313]

Satan does not rule, govern, or dominate over this world, or any world.

Satan is not a god, prince, or king.

Satan is no more than an angel. No authority, no free will.

To believe that Satan is a sort of god or king over this world is among the highest forms of blasphemy and rejections of God.

This is all well and good for those who reject God to begin with... but doesn't reflect well on those who claim to believe in God.

[ROBERTENEAL]

Satan does not rule, govern, or dominate over this world, or any world.

Satan is not a god, prince, or king.

Satan is no more than an angel. No authority, no free will.

To believe that Satan is a sort of god or king over this world is among the highest forms of blasphemy and rejections of God.

This is all well and good for those who reject God to begin with... but doesn't reflect well on those who claim to believe in God.

Satan is the ultimate counterfeiter, the manufacturer of false gods.

Do the majority of the people in this world believe in the real deal?

Or have the majority of the people who inhabit this planet fallen for the deceptions that are propagated by the powers and principalities that stand opposed to the real God?

How do you explain why there are so many gods, idols and religions?

Human nature accounts for a part of the world's religious scenario, but not all of it. There is an invisible factor.

[Koushi Shinigami]

Satan does not rule, govern, or dominate over this world, or any world.

.

If one believes in free will, then neither does God.

[DRS]

Satan does not rule, govern, or dominate over this world, or any world.

Satan is not a god, prince, or king.

Satan is no more than an angel. No authority, no free will.

To believe that Satan is a sort of god or king over this world is among the highest forms of blasphemy and rejections of God.

This is all well and good for those who reject God to begin with... but doesn't reflect well on those who claim to believe in God.

To attribute the evil done by Satan to God seems to be a bigger rejection of God then aknowledging the what we are seeing, the results of rebellion against God by creatures of free will both spirit and flesh

[Alaric]

Satan is no more than an angel. No authority, no free will.
That's a problem for theodicy. Without free will rebellion cannot occur.


To believe that Satan is a sort of god or king over this world is among the highest forms of blasphemy and rejections of God.

This is all well and good for those who reject God to begin with... but doesn't reflect well on those who claim to believe in God.
Paul was a blasphemer? It doesn't reflect well on him at all.


To attribute the evil done by Satan to God seems to be a bigger rejection of God then aknowledging the what we are seeing, the results of rebellion against God by creatures of free will both spirit and flesh
Well said.

[Alaric]

One hopes. One sincerely hopes.

Chuangtzu, thats an interestiong comment coming from you, who based on your comments over the years, I would classify as not 100% Atheist but most definitely more Atheist that Agnostic. Are you being cute, or sincerely hoping - see, if Satan exists then it woudl presuppose the existenced of a god.

[Chuangtzu]

Chuangtzu, thats an interestiong comment coming from you, who based on your comments over the years, I would classify as not 100% Atheist but most definitely more Atheist that Agnostic. Are you being cute, or sincerely hoping - see, if Satan exists then it woudl presuppose the existenced of a god.

I'm an atheist. As Gods and godlings go, though, I'd prefer a Lucifer to a Yahweh. Though, neither in favor of an Odin, Coyote, Dionysus or Pan.

[CaptainPike]

I'm an atheist. As Gods and godlings go, though, I'd prefer a Lucifer to a Yahweh. Though, neither in favor of an Odin, Coyote, Dionysus or Pan.

So you reject Gods that have authority?

[Chuangtzu]

So you reject Gods that have authority?

I reject transcendence. And Odin certainly is an authority deity, mythologically.

[Poisonshady313]

How do you explain why there are so many gods, idols and religions?

Human nature accounts for a part of the world's religious scenario, but not all of it. There is an invisible factor.

A person has two inclination... good and evil. This has nothing to do with Satan.

The good inclination is the divine spark within each of us which has us think twice before acting with our evil inclination.

But don't let the word "evil" throw you off... it isn't really "evil" in the traditional sense of the word..

That inclination is what leads you to take care of your material self.

The evil inclination drives you to eat food. the good inclination prevents you from becoming a glutton.

The evil inclination drives you to sleep at night. the good inclination prevents you from becoming lazy.

The evil inclination drives you to have sexual relations. the good inclination prevents you from committing fornication, adultery, rape, etc...

It's not that one victors over the other... one guides the other. They depend on each other. Otherwise, man would be a lifeless lump of clay.

Satan is just another one of God's angels. to exalt him beyond that borders on blasphemy.

[Poisonshady313]

To attribute the evil done by Satan to God seems to be a bigger rejection of God then aknowledging the what we are seeing, the results of rebellion against God by creatures of free will both spirit and flesh

Or not.

[Frazzled]

Personally, I think Satan wanted (and wants) to be the God of this world, and isn't happy that it didn't work out that way.

[Poisonshady313]

That's a problem for theodicy. Without free will rebellion cannot occur. When you come from a position that Satan never rebelled, the problem you mentioned is no longer a problem.

Paul was a blasphemer? It doesn't reflect well on him at all. Indeed. Not well at all.

[Alaric]

When you come from a position that Satan never rebelled, the problem you mentioned is no longer a problem.


Only if you wish to preach dystheism.

[ROBERTENEAL]

A person has two inclination... good and evil. This has nothing to do with Satan.

The good inclination is the divine spark within each of us which has us think twice before acting with our evil inclination.

But don't let the word "evil" throw you off... it isn't really "evil" in the traditional sense of the word..

That inclination is what leads you to take care of your material self.

The evil inclination drives you to eat food. the good inclination prevents you from becoming a glutton.

The evil inclination drives you to sleep at night. the good inclination prevents you from becoming lazy.

The evil inclination drives you to have sexual relations. the good inclination prevents you from committing fornication, adultery, rape, etc...

It's not that one victors over the other... one guides the other. They depend on each other. Otherwise, man would be a lifeless lump of clay.

Satan is just another one of God's angels. to exalt him beyond that borders on blasphemy.


Sure, there is a lot of good and a lot of evil that is motivated by nothing more than human nature, or "inclination"(as you have stated), or in Biblical terms the "works of the flesh". Sometimes Satan has nothing to do with the choices that people make.

What would people be like if they were totally isolated from Satan? What if people were isolated from God? How good (or evil) could they become?

How good is "good" if you put it in strictly human terms? Proverbs 14:12; "there is a way that seems right to a man, But its end is the way of death".
The ultimate good, as far as God is concerned, goes beyond that which "seems right" in human terms.
Jeremiah 17:9; "The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked, who can know it?" Clearly, there is more to living a life of true righteousness than following human inclinations. The Lord's guidance is needed, human conscience is not an adequate tool for making people conform to those things that the Lord teaches.

Conversely, how evil is "evil" in human terms? How evil can people become if they are left to their own devices? Can people become depraved enough to sacrifice their children in a fire to Baal, like the ancient Canaanites did,without some kind of outside influence? How did the concept of deities like Baal and Molech originate? Strictly from human imagination? Or was there an outside force involved? People cannot totally abandon natural human affection unless they have given themselves over to a totally reprobate mind, the type of mentality that Satan wants people to adopt.

And no, Satan is not a God, but he is one hell of a magician, one hell of an counterfeiter, and one hell of a projectionist.

You are correct in saying that it is wrong to exalt him, though. When people exalt Satan, they make him seem to be more powerful than he really is.. Satan is a limited being.

[Poisonshady313]

Only if you wish to preach dystheism.

Unless of course you're wrong about what you attribute to Satan and think that I remove it from Satan and attribute it to God...

That is, if you have a drastic misunderstanding of the concept of good and evil and how they come into this world and how humans deal with them, etc...

Humans rebel against God. Not angels.

God created light and dark, and gave us the power to choose. Satan may dangle a carrot stick in front of our eyes... but it is ultimately we who do or don't do, and reap the rewards or punishments.


I'm not sure what it is you believe I'm saying God is responsible for... but I am sure that you are taking it wildly out of context.

[DRS]

Or not.


There is nothing in the bible that shows that angels do not have free will, if angels do not have free will then it was God who wanted Job tested, and if it was God and Satan was just doing what God wanted him to do then God sure has a funny way of treating His worshippers

[TheVillageIdiot]

No, Satan/Beezlebub/the Devil/Lucifer is not the god of this world. How self-pitying and self-loathing that idea is? That we are supervised by the personification of evil, and only once we exit our corporeal bodies, we'll be saved. Personally, I don't believe in a God, so I don't believe in a Satan either.

[ROBERTENEAL]

No, Satan/Beezlebub/the Devil/Lucifer is not the god of this world. How self-pitying and self-loathing that idea is? That we are supervised by the personification of evil, and only once we exit our corporeal bodies, we'll be saved. Personally, I don't believe in a God, so I don't believe in a Satan either.

We have to exit our corporeal bodies in order to be saved? That is a new one to me:think:

[TheVillageIdiot]

We have to exit our corporeal bodies in order to be saved? That is a new one to me:think:

That's what my 8+ years in Catholic school and Sunday School taught. Is that not what dying and going to Heaven (or Hell, a truly atrocious lie) is, down to the basics?

[ROBERTENEAL]

That's what my 8+ years in Catholic school and Sunday School taught. Is that not what dying and going to Heaven (or Hell, a truly atrocious lie) is, down to the basics?

I am not an expert on Heaven or Hell because I have never been to either one of those places.

The conclusions that I have come to are based on that which I have learned (and experienced) in the here and now.

I believe that God is for real in the here and now. The forces that oppose Him are also for real, beginning right here and right now.

[ROBERTENEAL]

Unless of course you're wrong about what you attribute to Satan and think that I remove it from Satan and attribute it to God...

That is, if you have a drastic misunderstanding of the concept of good and evil and how they come into this world and how humans deal with them, etc...

Humans rebel against God. Not angels.

God created light and dark, and gave us the power to choose. Satan may dangle a carrot stick in front of our eyes... but it is ultimately we who do or don't do, and reap the rewards or punishments.


I'm not sure what it is you believe I'm saying God is responsible for... but I am sure that you are taking it wildly out of context.

You mentioned how the concept of good and evil came into the world. Genesis 3 contains an account of the Serpent convincing Eve that she should eat of the fruit of the tree in the midst of the garden.

How much was Satan involved in that dialogue? Did Satan actually use the Serpent as a mouthpiece?

Or was the Serpent nothing more than a creature who was very clever in some ways, but a creature who could only think on the level of basic instincts? The Serpent could not understand why anyone should deny themselves anything they desired. To the Serpent, instant gratification trumped all other concerns. To the Serpent, it was annoying to see these "high and mighty" humans who thought that they should delay or deny their personal gratification in order to please God.

After Adam and Eve gained this thing which is referred to as "the knowledge of good and evil", they did not become smarter, at least not as far as God was concerned. They had bought into the same mentality and the same economy that their animal colleagues lived by, a mentality and an economy that was beneath the station that God had originally designed the human race for.

Perhaps Satan did not use the Serpent as a mouthpiece. The Serpent, however, paved the way for Satan to usurp the limited amount of dominion that humans were supposed to have.

[Dancer]

Satan is not a god of any sort. Even if he were given command over this world, it would not make him a 'god' of this world.

[ROBERTENEAL]

Satan is not a god of any sort. Even if he were given command over this world, it would not make him a 'god' of this world.

Satan is an illusionist who uses this world as a stage. He employs a lot of stage hands and a lot of actors who pretend to be some sort of a god.

Satan is not a god, but he is the ultimate master of smoke and mirrors. His game is to mock the real God by inventing a lot of cheap counterfeits.

[Alaric]

Satan is not a god of any sort. Even if he were given command over this world, it would not make him a 'god' of this world.

What constitutes a god? Must a god be all powerful, or good, or divine, real, or even animate? If its worshiped, its someone's god.

[Reeder]

2 Corinthians 4:4

3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:

4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

"God" (uppercase "G") does not equal "god" (lowercase "g").


This verse clearly labels Satan as "the god of this world."

[Constantine the Great]

there seem to be many gods of this world... it all depends who you hang out with...

Is this your own personal belief or do I take your avatar for what it is with its unique symbolism; a slight variation of the pentagram of Baphomet and an upside-down cross.

[Gidon]

Satan is lord of the earth, but not for much longer.

[mgifford]

Satan is lord of the earth, but not for much longer.

"The Earth Is The Lord's And The Fulness Thereof". satan is lord of this world.

[Harmonious]

There is nothing in the bible that shows that angels do not have free will,There is nothing in Tanach to show that angels DO have free will.
if angels do not have free will then it was God who wanted Job tested, and if it was God and Satan was just doing what God wanted him to do then God sure has a funny way of treating His worshippersNo one said that we have any true understanding of why God does what He does. It isn't our job to judge God.

Yes, God allows things to happen in this world. He gives humans (and ONLY humans) free will. Everything and everyone else doesn't have the inclination to go against God's wishes.

[Harmonious]

To attribute the evil done by Satan to God seems to be a bigger rejection of God then aknowledging the what we are seeing, the results of rebellion against God by creatures of free will both spirit and fleshNo one said that God did the evil that is attributed to Satan.

The evil is attributed to Man. And things like natural disasters... These are indeed attributed to God, but we don't know why God allows these things to happen.

[mgifford]

There is nothing in Tanach to show that angels DO have free will.
No one said that we have any true understanding of why God does what He does. It isn't our job to judge God.

Yes, God allows things to happen in this world. He gives humans (and ONLY humans) free will. Everything and everyone else doesn't have the inclination to go against God's wishes.

What about when Lucifer rebelled and was cast down, was that free will when he went against God?

[Reeder]

There is nothing in Tanach to show that angels DO have free will.
No one said that we have any true understanding of why God does what He does. It isn't our job to judge God.

Yes, God allows things to happen in this world. He gives humans (and ONLY humans) free will. Everything and everyone else doesn't have the inclination to go against God's wishes.


And if angels turn out to be humans who have belonged to this earth (or WILL belong to it), then angels DO have free will.

[Gidon]

Angels are not human.

Psa 8:6 What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him?
Psa 8:5 For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour.

[Reeder]

Angels are not human.

Psa 8:6 What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him?
Psa 8:5 For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour.

How does that say angels aren't human?

[Gidon]

How does that say angels aren't human?

We are made a little lower than the angels for starts. Can Humans do what the Angels in the Bible have done?

[Reeder]

We are made a little lower than the angels for starts. Can Humans do what the Angels in the Bible have done?

If God gives them ability (as he does the angels), then I don't see why not.

[Gidon]

If God gives them ability (as he does the angels), then I don't see why not.


My dog can sit when he is told to. Doesn't make him human.

[Reeder]

My dog can sit when he is told to. Doesn't make him human.


My kid can sit when he is told to. Doesn't make him a dog.

[Harmonious]

What about when Lucifer rebelled and was cast down, was that free will when he went against God?

No such angel was cast down. If you are referring to the verse in Isaiah, it refers to a human king being compared to a situation that would be as drastic as an angel being cast down. But no angel was cast down.

[mgifford]

We are made a little lower than the angels for starts. Can Humans do what the Angels in the Bible have done?

Not only is Christ better than the angels, but the saints will rule them as well. When he was correcting the Corinthians' practice of taking legal action against each other, Paul said, "Know ye not that we shall judge angels?" (1 Cor. 6:3). This does not refer to passing sentence on angels, or sending them to punishment. It does mean that saints will be exalted higher than angels and will rule them, making decisions for the administration of the universe. Saints, not angels, become heirs of God and joint-heirs with Jesus Christ to inherit all things.

[mgifford]

No such angel was cast down. If you are referring to the verse in Isaiah, it refers to a human king being compared to a situation that would be as drastic as an angel being cast down. But no angel was cast down.

Yes I'v heard that explaination many, many times but thanks.

[mgifford]

Peter tells us that when angels sinned, God "cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment" (1 Peter 2:4). Jude likewise states that "the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day" (Jude 6). In Jude 7 we are told these angels will suffer "the vengeance of eternal fire." Jesus declared that this everlasting fire was "prepared for the devil and his angels" (Mt. 25:41).

[darknessesedge]

I've heard many say it, including some here, the Bible teaches it in 2 Cor 4:4, A google search turns up hundreds of Christian websites teaching it, some claim Christ taught it. How many believe this and why?

evil runs the world as we know it.

[mgifford]

2 Cor. 4:4
(god of this world) Satan (John 8:44; John 12:31; John 14:30; John 16:11; Ephes. 2:2; 1 John 3:9; 1 John 5:18).

[mgifford]

John 8:44
Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

[mgifford]

John 12:31
Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out.

[curtis123]

I don't think he's the God of this world, however, I do believe that evil is a necessary part of life on earth. If not, what would be the purpose of heaven?

We wouldn't know what evil or pain or sorrow or torment is if we didn't experience it here on earth. A soul wouldn't be complete without that knowledge.

[mgifford]

I don't think he's the God of this world, however, I do believe that evil is a necessary part of life on earth. If not, what would be the purpose of heaven?

We wouldn't know what evil or pain or sorrow or torment is if we didn't experience it here on earth. A soul wouldn't be complete without that knowledge.

I think part of your post is correct.

[mgifford]

Angels have been engaged in spiritual warfare since the fall of Satan (Isa. 14:12-14; Lk. 10:18; Ezek. 28:11-17), and will remain involved in this work until the time when every knee shall bow and every tongue shall confess the Lordship of Jesus Christ (Phil. 2:9-11; Isa. 45:23-25).

[DRS]

There is nothing in Tanach to show that angels DO have free will.
No one said that we have any true understanding of why God does what He does. It isn't our job to judge God.

Yes, God allows things to happen in this world. He gives humans (and ONLY humans) free will. Everything and everyone else doesn't have the inclination to go against God's wishes.

The story of Job seems to show free will

The use also of the king of tyre to symbolize Satan in Ezekiel gives a desription of one who can choose their own path

[DRS]

No one said that God did the evil that is attributed to Satan.

The evil is attributed to Man. And things like natural disasters... These are indeed attributed to God, but we don't know why God allows these things to happen.

who brought the evil upon Job?

[Snow]

Is Satan the god of this world?

If you understand Satan to have the kind of supernatural powers that Christianity attributes to him, then Satan certainly is a god or one of the gods of this world.

[Harmonious]

The story of Job seems to show free willNo, it shows that Satan can think thoughts. But note - he did nothing without God's direct permission.

The use also of the king of tyre to symbolize Satan in Ezekiel gives a desription of one who can choose their own path
Please give me a chapter and/or verse, or both, as Ezekiel isn't my strongest book.

[Harmonious]

who brought the evil upon Job?With whose permission?

[Snow]

who brought the evil upon Job?

God - who created Satan and gave him supernatural powers and the permission to do it to Job.

How do you reconcile what you refer to evil with a just, good god?

[Harmonious]

God - who created Satan and gave him supernatural powers and the permission to do it to Job.

How do you reconcile what you refer to evil with a just, good god?I believe that God has a plan that I don't understand.

I trust Him. I believe that God is good. And what I perceive as bad has a purpose I'm not privvy to.

[Snow]

I believe that God has a plan that I don't understand.

I trust Him. I believe that God is good. And what I perceive as bad has a purpose I'm not privvy to.

Saying it's all a big mystery is not really much of an answer.

If the book of Job is literal history (obviously it is not) then one must reconcile or try to reconcile a just good god with a god, who in the story, wagers with Satan and as a result of that wager in party to the murder of Jobs family and servants.

[Harmonious]

Saying it's all a big mystery is not really much of an answer.
Perhaps not. But it's all I've got.
If the book of Job is literal history (obviously it is not) then one must reconcile or try to reconcile a just good god with a god, who in the story, wagers with Satan and as a result of that wager in party to the murder of Jobs family and servants.
I told you, I don't know the answer.

[Dancer]

I have an opinion on Job, but it is only an opinion.

When he sacrificed "just in case" his kids did something wrong, I wonder if his kids typically didn't sacrifice for themselves (had built no personal relationship with God) and thus, by taking the lives of his family for their own sins, Job felt he was being punished, but it is the case of God saying, "Your children belong to me, for me to provide my justice as I see fit. I determine their lives, just like I determine your life. You all belong to me." Who knows the state of those children once they reached God's judgment? Yes, it hurt Job to lose his family, but before they belonged to Job, they belong to God. God loves Job's kids too and knows where they belong. Trust God to know what is right and what is best.

Rather than trying to conform my idea of God to what is good, I am learning to form my idea of good to that which is God.

[RayMan]

No, it shows that Satan can think thoughts. But note - he did nothing without God's direct permission.


Please give me a chapter and/or verse, or both, as Ezekiel isn't my strongest book.

Eze 28:11 Moreover the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,
Eze 28:12 Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty.
Eze 28:13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.
Eze 28:14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
Eze 28:15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.
Eze 28:16 By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.
Eze 28:17 Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.
Eze 28:18 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.
Eze 28:19 All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more.

[Poisonshady313]

Eze 28:11 Moreover the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,
Eze 28:12 Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty.
Eze 28:13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.
Eze 28:14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
Eze 28:15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.
Eze 28:16 By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.
Eze 28:17 Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.
Eze 28:18 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.
Eze 28:19 All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more.

That's not Satan... that's the king of tyre. Says so right in verse 12.

[DRS]

No, it shows that Satan can think thoughts. But note - he did nothing without God's direct permission.


Please give me a chapter and/or verse, or both, as Ezekiel isn't my strongest book.

He does not ask permission, he questions why he serves and points out that Jehovah is protecting him, Jehovah only agrees to remove the protection

7*Then Jehovah said to Satan: “Where do you come from?” At that Satan answered Jehovah and said: “From roving about in the earth and from walking about in it.” 8*And Jehovah went on to say to Satan: “Have you set your heart upon my servant Job, that there is no one like him in the earth, a man blameless and upright, fearing God and turning aside from bad?” 9*At that Satan answered Jehovah and said: “Is it for nothing that Job has feared God? 10*Have not you yourself put up a hedge about him and about his house and about everything that he has all around? The work of his hands you have blessed, and his livestock itself has spread abroad in the earth. 11*But, for a change, thrust out your hand, please, and touch everything he has [and see] whether he will not curse you to your very face.” 12*Accordingly Jehovah said to Satan: “Look! Everything that he has is in your hand. Only against him himself do not thrust out your hand!” So Satan went out away from the person of Jehovah


28:11*And the word of Jehovah continued to occur to me, saying: 12*“Son of man, lift up a dirge concerning the king of Tyre, and you must say to him, ‘This is what the Sovereign Lord Jehovah has said:

“‘“You are sealing up a pattern, full of wisdom and perfect in beauty. 13*In E′den, the garden of God, you proved to be. Every precious stone was your covering, ruby, topaz and jasper; chrys′o‧lite, onyx and jade; sapphire, turquoise and emerald; and of gold was the workmanship of your settings and your sockets in you. In the day of your being created they were made ready. 14*You are the anointed cherub that is covering, and I have set you. On the holy mountain of God you proved to be. In the midst of fiery stones you walked about. 15*You were faultless in your ways from the day of your being created until unrighteousness was found in you.

[DRS]

That's not Satan... that's the king of tyre. Says so right in verse 12.

the king of Tyre was in the garden of Eden?

[mgifford]

I have an opinion on Job, but it is only an opinion.

When he sacrificed "just in case" his kids did something wrong, I wonder if his kids typically didn't sacrifice for themselves (had built no personal relationship with God) and thus, by taking the lives of his family for their own sins, Job felt he was being punished, but it is the case of God saying, "Your children belong to me, for me to provide my justice as I see fit. I determine their lives, just like I determine your life. You all belong to me." Who knows the state of those children once they reached God's judgment? Yes, it hurt Job to lose his family, but before they belonged to Job, they belong to God. God loves Job's kids too and knows where they belong. Trust God to know what is right and what is best.

Rather than trying to conform my idea of God to what is good, I am learning to form my idea of good to that which is God.

Don't forget that Job said concerning his children, "That which I feared most has come". I believe that was Job's biggest mistake in that he FEARED that much, but yet in other ways trusted God totally.

[DRS]

I have an opinion on Job, but it is only an opinion.

When he sacrificed "just in case" his kids did something wrong, I wonder if his kids typically didn't sacrifice for themselves (had built no personal relationship with God) and thus, by taking the lives of his family for their own sins, Job felt he was being punished, but it is the case of God saying, "Your children belong to me, for me to provide my justice as I see fit. I determine their lives, just like I determine your life. You all belong to me." Who knows the state of those children once they reached God's judgment? Yes, it hurt Job to lose his family, but before they belonged to Job, they belong to God. God loves Job's kids too and knows where they belong. Trust God to know what is right and what is best.

Rather than trying to conform my idea of God to what is good, I am learning to form my idea of good to that which is God.

There is things such as incidental sin and Job would have been acting as high priest for his family

[Gidon]

He does not ask permission, he questions why he serves and points out that Jehovah is protecting him, Jehovah only agrees to remove the protection

7*Then Jehovah said to Satan: “Where do you come from?” At that Satan answered Jehovah and said: “From roving about in the earth and from walking about in it.” 8*And Jehovah went on to say to Satan: “Have you set your heart upon my servant Job, that there is no one like him in the earth, a man blameless and upright, fearing God and turning aside from bad?” 9*At that Satan answered Jehovah and said: “Is it for nothing that Job has feared God? 10*Have not you yourself put up a hedge about him and about his house and about everything that he has all around? The work of his hands you have blessed, and his livestock itself has spread abroad in the earth. 11*But, for a change, thrust out your hand, please, and touch everything he has [and see] whether he will not curse you to your very face.” 12*Accordingly Jehovah said to Satan: “Look! Everything that he has is in your hand. Only against him himself do not thrust out your hand!” So Satan went out away from the person of Jehovah


28:11*And the word of Jehovah continued to occur to me, saying: 12*“Son of man, lift up a dirge concerning the king of Tyre, and you must say to him, ‘This is what the Sovereign Lord Jehovah has said:

“‘“You are sealing up a pattern, full of wisdom and perfect in beauty. 13*In E′den, the garden of God, you proved to be. Every precious stone was your covering, ruby, topaz and jasper; chrys′o‧lite, onyx and jade; sapphire, turquoise and emerald; and of gold was the workmanship of your settings and your sockets in you. In the day of your being created they were made ready. 14*You are the anointed cherub that is covering, and I have set you. On the holy mountain of God you proved to be. In the midst of fiery stones you walked about. 15*You were faultless in your ways from the day of your being created until unrighteousness was found in you.

what translation are you citing? The word Jehova is a mistranslation.
the Latin scholars weren't aware of certain scribal practices of the Hebrews.

[DRS]

what translation are you citing? The word Jehova is a mistranslation.
the Latin scholars weren't aware of certain scribal practices of the Hebrews.

NWT

A mistranlsation of what?

[Andrew_980]

Job really is a sick story, that a god could allow children and others to suffer so much to test one man. For vanity.

[mgifford]

Job really is a sick story, that a god could allow children and others to suffer so much to test one man. For vanity.

Not really because in the end he had much, much more wealth and almost twice as many kids. He was blessed beyond measure at the end.

[DRS]

Job really is a sick story, that a god could allow children and others to suffer so much to test one man. For vanity.

It had nothing to do with vanity on God's part, and it demonstrates what is happening on the global scale

[Andrew_980]

Not really because in the end he had much, much more wealth and almost twice as many kids. He was blessed beyong measure at the end.

But others suffered for nothing more than gods ego.

[Poisonshady313]

the king of Tyre was in the garden of Eden?

In Eden, the garden of God With much goodness and pleasure. You enjoy yourself as if you were dwelling in Eden, the garden of God. All wealth, pride, and honor are given to you: all precious stones are set on your raiment.


When this begins:

"Son of man, raise a lamentation over the king of Tyre and say to him, So said the Lord God: You are the one who engraves images, full of wisdom and perfect in beauty."

You understand that references to him being in a place that humanity had been expelled from since Adam and Eve are purely metaphorical/poetic.

Well.. YOU don't understand... but I do, as does anyone who picks up on the fact that Ezekiel 28:12 says

Son of man, raise a lamentation over the king of Tyre and say to him, So said the Lord God: You are the one who engraves images, full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.

[DRS]

In Eden, the garden of God With much goodness and pleasure. You enjoy yourself as if you were dwelling in Eden, the garden of God. All wealth, pride, and honor are given to you: all precious stones are set on your raiment.


When this begins:

"Son of man, raise a lamentation over the king of Tyre and say to him, So said the Lord God: You are the one who engraves images, full of wisdom and perfect in beauty."

You understand that references to him being in a place that humanity had been expelled from since Adam and Eve are purely metaphorical/poetic.

Well.. YOU don't understand... but I do, as does anyone who picks up on the fact that Ezekiel 28:12 says

Son of man, raise a lamentation over the king of Tyre and say to him, So said the Lord God: You are the one who engraves images, full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.

that does not answer the question about the king of Tyre being in the garden, the short passage I quotes make more ssense of if God is using the king of Tyre to represent Satan who was in the garden and is the product of his own pride

[Poisonshady313]

that does not answer the question about the king of Tyre being in the garden, the short passage I quotes make more ssense of if God is using the king of Tyre to represent Satan who was in the garden and is the product of his own pride

It's a freaking metaphor. It makes perfect sense. It makes absolutely no sense to say it was Satan, because that would mean the concept of Satan having been in the garden of eden would have been created by Ezekiel, because nothing previously written supports the notion that the serpent was anything other than a serpent.

[Ephraimsdaughter]

The Earth will then be purified with fire and totally restored (2 Peter 3). This burning will be so intense that it will be of cosmic proportions, it will necessitate a new Heaven and a New Earth (Rev21). This world will finally be prepared for eternal occupancy.

Any ideas how you think this will occur? Nuclear Devastion? Asteriod strike?

[ROBERTENEAL]

Any ideas how you think this will occur? Nuclear Devastion? Asteriod strike?

My opinion is that the final burning mentioned in 2 Peter 3:10 is at least 1000 years in the future. Revelation 20:9 mentions a fire that comes down from God. This fire will come down on those who participate in the final rebellion at the end of the 1000 year reign of Christ. Personally, I don't think that this will be nuclear or an asteroid. My impression is that this will be a very controlled burn with a specific purpose. Revelation 21:1 "And I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away".

This is not to say that there won't be nuclear devastation and/or asteroid strikes in the near future, though. It seems that there will be a lot of destruction during the days that immediately precede the second coming of Christ. Matthew 24:22 "And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved".

This is my unscholarly opinion.

[DRS]

It's a freaking metaphor. It makes perfect sense. It makes absolutely no sense to say it was Satan, because that would mean the concept of Satan having been in the garden of eden would have been created by Ezekiel, because nothing previously written supports the notion that the serpent was anything other than a serpent.

How many talking animals are in the bible?

i believe there is one other and the was a spirit creature behind that one too

[Poisonshady313]

How many talking animals are in the bible?

i believe there is one other and the was a spirit creature behind that one too

That's wonderful, yet totally irrelevant regarding the king of tyre.

It was a metaphor. The prophets have a habit of speaking poetically, metaphorically, in parables, etc.

The King of Tyre had everything he could have ever wanted, and then he royally screwed up and paid the price for it.

No satan in there anywhere.

[DRS]

That's wonderful, yet totally irrelevant regarding the king of tyre.

It was a metaphor. The prophets have a habit of speaking poetically, metaphorically, in parables, etc.

The King of Tyre had everything he could have ever wanted, and then he royally screwed up and paid the price for it.

No satan in there anywhere.

A metaphor yes for Satan, the specific mention of the garden ties this in, as well as the description of an exact type of angel and the fact he was called faultless in all ways from the day of his creation, humans are born and are born imperfect so they are not faultless

14*You are the anointed cherub that is covering, and I have set you. On the holy mountain of God you proved to be. In the midst of fiery stones you walked about. 15*You were faultless in your ways from the day of your being created until unrighteousness was found in you

[Snow]

Perhaps not. But it's all I've got.

I told you, I don't know the answer.

Harmonious,

I demand that you have an answer and I am going to hold my breath (turning blue if I have to) until you do.

[Alaric]

Interesting results. Granted, this kind of a poll is not very scientific, but....

40% of the forum participants may be monotheists.

60% of the forum members are by definition, Henotheists, Monolatrists, or Polytheists. To classify the 60% as polytheists might be a technically correct, but reading the responses, its obvious that its not the best choice. Monolatry and Henotheism seem to be better classifications.

[Koushi Shinigami]

Does monotheism leave you as exhausted as mononucleosis

[Alaric]

Don't know, I've never had mononucleosis. You'll have to hope that among the 40% (0r less) of the forum that are true monotheists there is also a mono-nucleosis-ist. :)

[Harmonious]

How many talking animals are in the bible?Two, that I'm aware of. The snake and Bil'am's donkey.

i believe there is one other and the was a spirit creature behind that one tooNo. I believe that God just gave the donkey something to say.

The snake was just giving an animal's interpretation about God's commandments. I don't think it was particularly evil. Just an animal.

[krowe]

Job really is a sick story, that a god could allow children and others to suffer so much to test one man. For vanity.

This body is not what makes us living beings. Job was being tested, and his kids went to heaven (an unimaginable better place, absent from Satan's influence) as a result of Satan's desperate attempt against Job's faith.

[Gem]

2 Corinthians 4:4

3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:

4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

"God" (uppercase "G") does not equal "god" (lowercase "g").


This verse clearly labels Satan as "the god of this world."

Very good Reeder. http://forums.hannity.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[buflineks]

Interesting.

Of course this is the base verse for Dualism.

[Harmonious]

Satan does not rule, govern, or dominate over this world, or any world.

Satan is not a god, prince, or king.

Satan is no more than an angel. No authority, no free will.

To believe that Satan is a sort of god or king over this world is among the highest forms of blasphemy and rejections of God.

This is all well and good for those who reject God to begin with... but doesn't reflect well on those who claim to believe in God.
It's been a while, but I thought this was something that needed to be repeated.

[RayMan]

Interesting.

Of course this is the base verse for Dualism.

Dualism plays bass?

[RayMan]

Harmonious,

I demand that you have an answer and I am going to hold my breath (turning blue if I have to) until you do.

Wow. No wonder we haven't heard from snow in a while.

[Harmonious]

Dualism plays bass?

Especially when there are two bass players.

[buflineks]

Dualism plays bass?

And Mary sang Tenor.

Jesus and Satan joined right in there.

*nothing like a little mitigated dualism to provoke paraphrasing old Johnny Cash songs.

[RayMan]

Especially when there are two bass players.

I suppose he and Death could jam.

http://tbn2.google.com/images?q=tbn:9u8aFhCxDr7z9M:http://www.smthop.com/images/death01.jpg

[RayMan]

And Mary sang Tenor.

Jesus and Satan joined right in there.

*nothing like a little mitigated dualism to provoke paraphrasing old Johnny Cash songs.


In the sky Lord, in the sky.

[Harmonious]

Nothing like some good music to get your day off right!

[RayMan]

Yep.

[mgifford]

He sure is!