Biodiesel, ethanol, hybrids... whatever happened to the Toyota RAV4 EV?

[zerk]

You know what's funny... with all this talk about gas prices and shortages and alternatives like Biodiesel and Ethanol... I totaly forgot Toyota made Gas powered cars obsolete a couple of years ago... then deicided to quit making Electric (completly electric not hybrid) cars for some unknown reason.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_RAV4_EV

[zerk]

If a guy was smart, he could get one of those and get solar panels to charge the batteries.

[the_chainsaww]

You know what's funny... with all this talk about gas prices and shortages and alternatives like Biodiesel and Ethanol... I totaly forgot Toyota made Gas powered cars obsolete a couple of years ago... then deicided to quit making Electric (completly electric not hybrid) cars for some unknown reason.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_RAV4_EV
Your memory is way better than mine...I don't remember ever hearing about this.

I'm a Toyota fan myself (drive a 4 Runner now, next vehicle will be the Highlander Hybrid or the next best thing they put out). I googled "Toyota RAV4 EV" and found this press release from the Toyota site:

http://www.toyota.com/html/shop/vehicles/ravev/rav4ev_0_home/index.html

From the release:

Toyota believes that in order to have a positive environmental impact, a large number of consumers must embrace the technology. In order for this to happen, the vehicle must meet the lifestyle needs of, and be affordable to, the mass market. Although a significant marketing effort was undertaken for the RAV4-EV, we only sold about 300 vehicles a year.

[zerk]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_Ranger_EV

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Motors_EV1

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Production_Electric_vehicles

[Sir Gallahad]

The problem was that Toyota released the vehicle when gas was $1.00 a gallon, so understandably there was soft demand. Also, electric vehicles were just hitting their stride technologically when Toyota released the RAV-4 EV, whose NiMH batteries were made obsolete by lithium ion and lithium polymer batteries, which have more than twice the range and a fraction of recharging time. Add to that the stigma the public still attaches to the electric car (why do you think dealers advertise the fact that hybrid cars do not need to be plugged in, while the so-called 'plug-in hybrids' that do exist get up to four times the gas mileage of standard hybrids?), and you have a vehicle that is not in high demand. It was built solely to comply with California's Zero Emissions Vehcle mandate, and when the mandate was dropped, Toyota immediately ceased production.

[Thanatos144]

Ity would cost more to use an electric car than a gas one. You would have to spend like 40 dollars a gallon to make a gas car more expinsive to use. Prehapes you dont see your electric bill.

[zerk]

Why did the other companies (Ford and GM) recall theirs and crush them all... seems like a bit much doesn't it?

[zerk]

Ity would cost more to use an electric car than a gas one. You would have to spend like 40 dollars a gallon to make a gas car more expinsive to use. Prehapes you dont see your electric bill.
Two words... Solar Panels.

[the_chainsaww]

Why did the other companies (Ford and GM) recall theirs and crush them all... seems like a bit much doesn't it?
I imagine it's the same reason Toyota did....slow sales. Weren't some of them recalled because of bad batteries or something? That I do remember.

[Sir Gallahad]

Ity would cost more to use an electric car than a gas one. You would have to spend like 40 dollars a gallon to make a gas car more expinsive to use. Prehapes you dont see your electric bill.

The energy equivalent of a gallon of gasoline cost about 40 cents in electricity from the grid. Also, electric motors outlast internal combustion engines many times, due to their simplicity. Add to the fact that EV's do not need transmissions, and you can build a very affordable EV that is quite cheap to run and maintain.

[Thanatos144]

Two words... Solar Panels.
I can walk faster than a solar charged car.

[Thanatos144]

The energy equivalent of a gallon of gasoline cost about 40 cents in electricity from the grid. Also, electric motors outlast internal combustion engines many times, due to their simplicity. Add to the fact that EV's do not need transmissions, and you can build a very affordable EV that is quite cheap to run and maintain.
really? Is it just the electricity? No its the upkeep for the cars they are expisive to keep up. And what my power bill says is nowhere near as cheap as yours.

[misterfine]

Here's a movie I want to see:

http://www.whokilledtheelectriccar.com/

[zerk]

I can walk faster than a solar charged car.
The Toyota RAV4 goes 80 miles an hour.

[misterfine]

The Toyota RAV4 goes 80 miles an hour.

He's a really, really fast walker.

[zerk]

He's a really, really fast walker.
I bet.





Chevy made an S-10EV, too: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chevrolet_S10_EV


and looks like chysler had the first one, a minivan from '93 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chrysler_TEVan

Honda had one before they started working on the insight http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honda_EV_Plus

[zerk]

My neighbor has solar panels on his roof and in his yard... he must save a ton on his electric bill... I wonder if he knows about these cars, suvs and trucks?

[Hellsbane]

My neighbor has solar panels on his roof and in his yard... he must save a ton on his electric bill... I wonder if he knows about these cars, suvs and trucks?

Yea, low electric bills, but he paid for it in advance. Thats the prob with that tech, to damn expensive. If they would let them out cheaper, more folks would buy.

[zerk]

Patty’s 2002 Toyota RAV4 EV
Patricia Lakinsmith

Yes, you can drive an earth-friendly, electric car to work if you live in the mountains, and you don’t even need to be an electrician to do it. With a range of over 100 miles per charge, this car has no problem tackling my forty-mile round-trip Highway 17 commute, even with lunchtime errands or after work trips. The majority of our driving needs revolve around getting to work and back every day. Most commutes are less than forty miles round-trip, so the RAV4 EV (Electric Vehicle) can fit seamlessly into your daily life.

The clean, quiet power of this car is a joy. Practical, compact SUV styling makes it a functional choice for the environmentally conscious driver.

After about four years of use in the rental and government vehicle fleets, the electric Toyota RAV4 is available for sale to the public. This is part of the company’s program to comply with the California Air Resources Board (CARB) mandate. By 2003, ten percent of all new vehicles sold in California will be required to meet low emissions standards, with two percent qualified as zero emission vehicles.
On a historical note, while the appearance and capabilities of this particular car are revolutionary, electric vehicles themselves are not new. More than 8000 vehicles registered in America in 1900 were electric.1 These were known as “city” vehicles, and were considered to be less complicated and cleaner than their young internal combustion engine cousins.

The RAV4 is a pure electric vehicle, not a hybrid. There are no emissions (not even a tailpipe), no maintenance, and you “fill up” at night by plugging it into a home charging station that comes with the car. Hybrids contain a gasoline engine and an electric motor. Though they are more efficient than pure gas-powered cars, hybrids still emit pollutants into the air. The RAV4 EV has an electric motor only.

On a full charge you can run about 117 miles, depending on the terrain. Some electric vehicle owners make longer trips by planning stops at public charging stations found in shopping centers and airport parking garages.

The the first thing I addressed in my test drive was how the car would perform on Highway 17. I planned to use the car for commuting to work. I took a colleague and the salesperson (a rather large guy). We were easily able to climb all the way to Summit Road, passing vehicles along the way. Furthermore, you can make power when going downhill, using the car’s regenerative braking system. I’d like to see a gas-powered car do that.

The top advertised speed is 78 mph. It’s plenty fast for commuting in this area. My husband actually calls it “peppy.”

The dashboard is like a “regular car” and the onboard amenities are similar. You’ll find controls for air conditioning and heat, CD/AM/FM, power mirrors, windows and door locks, heated seats, timed charge, pre-cool or pre-heat, anti-lock brakes and dual front airbags. The state of charge meter shows you how much charge is left in the battery pack. It replaces the gas gauge. An additional gauge shows the momentary draw on the battery.

Several tiers of warnings tell you when you’re running low on battery power.

Unlike some electric vehicles, this car has room for five passengers, plus cargo space in the back. My dog especially likes the cargo area for trips to the beach.

The RAV4 EV has 24 factory sealed 12-volt rechargeable nickel metal hydride batteries (recyclable) used to propel the car and an additional 12 -volt lead acid battery for accessories (heating, air conditioning, CD player and radio, etc.). The batteries should last 100,000 miles.

Charging is relatively inexpensive. You charge it at night, at home, when the electric rates are at their cheapest, around 5 to 8 cents per kwh. It takes six to seven hours to charge it fully. You can drive up to 117 miles on one charge. The cost to drive it is 3 to 3.5 cents per mile, compared with some SUVs, which can cost as much as 8 or 9 cents per mile.

The RAV4 has a sale price of approximately $42,000, but after rebates and tax credits, the actual cost is about $30,000. This includes the home charging station, which you pay to have installed. Incentives are also available for employers who have EV charging installed at the workplace. In addition, Senate Bill 1782 mandates that the registration fees collected by the Department of Motor Vehicles will be based on a more affordable equivalent gas-powered car, not on the temporarily high cost of this new technology.

If you buy the vehicle (as opposed to leasing it) you can get an additional $3000 tax credit. Here’s another plus. You can drive a zero emissions vehicle alone in the carpool lane. Other benefits include free public charging at places like Costco and Fry’s and free parking in many municipalities. There is a new charging station in the Santa Cruz Front Street parking garage where you can also charge up for free.

More information on this car and public charging infrastructure is available on the RAV4 EV Web site (http://rav4ev.toyota.com) or the Electric Auto Association at (http://eaaev.org/). To learn about the rebate program, visit www.arb.ca.gov/msprog/zevprog/zip/zip.htm.

http://www.mnn.net/rav4ev.htm

[zerk]

Return of the Bumpasaurus.

[Lego-Man]

Two words... Solar Panels.

Two more words:

Extremely inefficient.

[Lego-Man]

The Toyota RAV4 goes 80 miles an hour.

OK, but what about the EV version?

Also, keeping speed out of this, how FAR does it go considering there aren't many charging stations around?

Also, what does it cost to charge at a station, and how long does it take to recharge?

[zerk]

The EV goes 80 MPH, that's what the wiki article says.

[scavengerspc]

Ity would cost more to use an electric car than a gas one. You would have to spend like 40 dollars a gallon to make a gas car more expinsive to use. Prehapes you dont see your electric bill.

Math teacher? :)

It says that the batteries output 27.4 KW at full charge, so at a rate of 10.9 cents per KWH (approx US average is 9.6 cents plus the delivery and taxes), it would cost $2.99 for a full charge if the batteries were completely dead.

Dave

[zerk]

Math teacher? :)

It says that the batteries output 27.4 KW at full charge, so at a rate of 10.9 cents per KWH (approx US average is 9.6 cents plus the delivery and taxes), it would cost $2.99 for a full charge if the batteries were completely dead.

Dave
That's got to be cheaper than gas powered.

[scavengerspc]

OK, but what about the EV version?

Also, keeping speed out of this, how FAR does it go considering there aren't many charging stations around?

Run time was about 110 miles, but that figure is released based on full performance. Around 30% of the batteries charge would still be available. Electric vehicles could often run an additional 50% of their run time but with gradually reduced acceleration and top speed.

Also, what does it cost to charge at a station, and how long does it take to recharge?

About 5-6 hours from full dead, about half that from 30% to 40%.

Charging stations never became an issue because EV owners could charge at RV parks.


Dave

[scavengerspc]

That's got to be cheaper than gas powered.

Much, MUCH cheaper.

Dave

[zerk]

I wonder how much less we'd need Mid-East Oil, if one out five American cars were EV?

[scavengerspc]

I wonder how much less we'd need Mid-East Oil, if one out five American cars were EV?

Yeah really. Just think if in just a few years we cut our dependency on oil by 20%.

Dave

[scavengerspc]

Two more words:

Extremely inefficient.

But nothing is more inefficient than an internal combustion engine.

Dave

[Sir Gallahad]

But nothing is more inefficient than an internal combustion engine.

Dave

Steam engines are much, much less efficient than ICE's. Just so you know.

[Sir Gallahad]

Yeah really. Just think if in just a few years we cut our dependency on oil by 20%.

Dave

Considering that 46% of US crude oil is refined into gasoline, if we convert 20% of the US gas-powered fleet to electricity, we could reduce oil consumption by approximately 10%, which would eliminate most of our Middle Eastern oil imports.

[Apatriot]

Two words... Solar Panels.

Do you know how big the solar panels would ahve to be to power a solar car?

[Lego-Man]

About 5-6 hours from full dead, about half that from 30% to 40%.

Charging stations never became an issue because EV owners could charge at RV parks.


Dave

5-6 hours to fill? You think lines are bad now at fuel stations, or were, at least, when there were gas lines?

They could fill at an RV park? Who parks a car only at an RV park? What's that run? About 35 per night? Then you better have something else while recharging so you don't have to just sit there twiddling your thumbs.

The longest it ever took to fill my truck once started was only about 30 minutes, and that includes the time it took to run in and sign the bill.

[Lego-Man]

Steam engines are much, much less efficient than ICE's. Just so you know.

That came to mind as well when I saw that.

[scavengerspc]

Steam engines are much, much less efficient than ICE's. Just so you know.

True, but I wasn't thinking back that far.
If I'm not mistaken steam power is only seen on the waterways today.

Dave

[Lego-Man]

Do you know how big the solar panels would ahve to be to power a solar car?

To recharge a tricle-recharger for a laptop, the panels they sell now (around $80.00) are 3 feet by 2 feet when opened (6 feet square). I imagine the entire car would have to have covered with them, just to recharge. This says nothing about maintaining the charge while in use.

Now, what happens when you four or five days of really cloudy or stormy days, and there isn't enough sun to recharge the vehicle?

[scavengerspc]

Do you know how big the solar panels would ahve to be to power a solar car?

A 2.5 KW panel can be fitted on the roof of an EV. But panels may be history soon. Photovoltaic cells are coming along.

Dave

[Lego-Man]

A 2.5 KW panel can be fitted on the roof of an EV. But panels may be history soon. Photovoltaic cells are coming along.

Dave

Nice to know we can't have convertables any more.

[scavengerspc]

To recharge a tricle-recharger for a laptop, the panels they sell now (around $80.00) are 3 feet by 2 feet when opened (6 feet square). I imagine the entire car would have to have covered with them, just to recharge. This says nothing about maintaining the charge while in use.

Now, what happens when you four or five days of really cloudy or stormy days, and there isn't enough sun to recharge the vehicle?

I imagine you would get to a place where you could recharge.

Dave

[scavengerspc]

Nice to know we can't have convertables any more.

Then wait for the Solar cells to improve.

Dave

[zerk]

when I mentioned Solar panels... I didn't mean to have them on the car. I met in your lawn and on the roof of your house.

[scavengerspc]

5-6 hours to fill? You think lines are bad now at fuel stations, or were, at least, when there were gas lines?

They could fill at an RV park? Who parks a car only at an RV park? What's that run? About 35 per night? Then you better have something else while recharging so you don't have to just sit there twiddling your thumbs.

The longest it ever took to fill my truck once started was only about 30 minutes, and that includes the time it took to run in and sign the bill.

The RV parks I have been in that could do it was charging around 18 to 20 cents per KWH.

Recharge stations are about the size of a parking meter, so lines wont be a problem. Plus, anyone who wants to make a few bucks could put a station in the front of their property by the road. The hookups are standard 220 like any electric clothes dryer.

Dave

[Apatriot]

A 2.5 KW panel can be fitted on the roof of an EV. But panels may be history soon. Photovoltaic cells are coming along.

Dave
regardless, they have to have a certain surface area.

Let's just look at the maximum amount of energy deliverd by the sun at the equator at noon. It's about 1000 watts per square meter (figures obtained from website below). The most efficient photovoltaics developed have about a 25% efficiency. So that means that we can get 250 watts per square meter. Let's assume 12 hr days, and we can get a total of 3000 watt/hrs per day per meter, or 3kwh per day per meter.

GM's ev1 used 0.179 kWh/mi charged,0.373 kWh/mi charge cycle, meaning that charging the batteries used .373 kwh/mi.

If that's the case, we can divide the 3kwh per day per square meter by .373 Kwh/ mile to get the miles per day and we get 8 miles per day per square meter. Let's assume an average commute of 16 miles. Then we need 2 square meters. That's doable, provided that we get 12 hrs of sun, and only commute. However, the cost would be a different matter.


What is the difference between a photovoltaic cell and a panel?


http://www.ucsusa.org/clean_energy/renewable_energy_basics/how-solar-energy-works.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Motors_EV1

[zerk]

bump

[birddog1]

regardless, they have to have a certain surface area.

Let's just look at the maximum amount of energy deliverd by the sun at the equator at noon. It's about 1000 watts per square meter (figures obtained from website below). The most efficient photovoltaics developed have about a 25% efficiency. So that means that we can get 250 watts per square meter. Let's assume 12 hr days, and we can get a total of 3000 watt/hrs per day per meter, or 3kwh per day per meter.

GM's ev1 used 0.179 kWh/mi charged,0.373 kWh/mi charge cycle, meaning that charging the batteries used .373 kwh/mi.

If that's the case, we can divide the 3kwh per day per square meter by .373 Kwh/ mile to get the miles per day and we get 8 miles per day per square meter. Let's assume an average commute of 16 miles. Then we need 2 square meters. That's doable, provided that we get 12 hrs of sun, and only commute. However, the cost would be a different matter.


What is the difference between a photovoltaic cell and a panel?


http://www.ucsusa.org/clean_energy/renewable_energy_basics/how-solar-energy-works.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Motors_EV1

You could use the solar panels to sell power back to the grid while you are at work and then plug in and recharge the car at night. Many areas have peak time rates so you would be selling electric back to the grid at a higher price and recharging the car on cheaper night time electricity. On cloudy days one would just have to bite the bullet and charge directly from the grid.

I saw a program on the History Channel a while back about the very same subject. They made reference to some companies installing solar powered charging stations as a perk for their employees so they could recharge their car while they worked.

[zerk]

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9D05E6DF163AF933A25753C1A9649C8B 63

[ThrowCop]

Ity would cost more to use an electric car than a gas one. You would have to spend like 40 dollars a gallon to make a gas car more expinsive to use. Prehapes you dont see your electric bill.Not even close!

[woodard]

The RV parks I have been in that could do it was charging around 18 to 20 cents per KWH.

Recharge stations are about the size of a parking meter, so lines wont be a problem. Plus, anyone who wants to make a few bucks could put a station in the front of their property by the road. The hookups are standard 220 like any electric clothes dryer.

Dave

Sounds like a few of you know what you're talking about. I've had an idea bouncing around my head for awhile. Maybe some of you could toss some info my way.
I have a '90 Isuzu P/U that has a bad... just about everything really. Was thinking about an electric conversion. But not a standard EV.
Just about all the car companies are doing parallel hybrids. None are doing serial hybrids. I know it's a cost issue but the thought intrigues me.
Electric motor to motivate and a small, diesel generator to provide the necessary electricity. Trains have been powered this way for decades.
So, the question. How large of a generator would I need to power an electric motor large enough to motivate a small p/u while also providing for the 12 volt needs of the vehicle(lights, climate control, stereo, etc.)? Or, more accurately, how small of a generator can I get away with?

ETA:Just thought of something. If I'm running an engine anyway, I can attach an alternator to provide for the 12 volt needs. So, the generator doesn't need to provide that.