Question for the Jewish posters here.

[noelle12]

My knowledge of modern Judaism is pretty limited. We studied it a little in 9th grade, and I have read most of the novels of Chaim Potok, but other than that, I don't know much. So I have a question for you.

I learned back in 9th grade about several different catagories of Judaism. I remember Orthodox, Conservative, and Reformed. What are the differences between these different groups? How did these groups come about? Are there other catagories also? Thank you.

[Hadassah]

The Sabbath is starting soon, if it hasn't already. It's almost dark.

[birdonawire]

The Sabbath is starting soon, if it hasn't already. It's almost dark.

I'm confused did that have something to do with her question?:eh:

I know almost nothing about Judaism.

[noelle12]

I'm confused did that have something to do with her question?:eh:

I know almost nothing about Judaism.

I think she is just reminding me that practicing Jews will probably not be on this forum during the Sabbath. I guess I can wait a couple of days. I just hope this thread won't be on the back page by then.:)

[birdonawire]

I think she is just reminding me that practicing Jews will probably not be on this forum during the Sabbath. I guess I can wait a couple of days. I just hope this thread won't be on the back page by then.:)


I had no idea thanks.:)

We can keep bumping it!!!!

I have learned a lot in the last week or so and now I would love to move on and learn something about the Jewish faith.:)

[meggers49]

I'm confused did that have something to do with her question?:eh:

I know almost nothing about Judaism.

orthodox won't answer until tomorrow night

[birdonawire]

orthodox won't answer until tomorrow night

Thanks.:)

I really do know nothing about the Jewish beliefs but I am looking forward to learning. :)

[noelle12]

orthodox won't answer until tomorrow night

I can wait.;)

[captusa]

Thanks.:)

I really do know nothing about the Jewish beliefs but I am looking forward to learning. :)

There are several denominations in the 3 main divisions of Judaism
Orthodox, Conservative and Reformed.

Generally Othodox Jews retain most rites, customs and practices that other groups do not.
Without over-generalizing all Chasidic sects are orthodox but all orthodox Jews are not Chasidic.
Generaly Orthodox Jews always have their heads covered and wear an undergarment called tzytes.
Men and women are separated in synagogues and God is prayed to several times per day.
Rules of Kashruth are strictly followed.
No work of any sort is allowed on the Sabbath.

Conservative Jews (which I was) retain many rites but not all and some in lesser degrees.
Laws of kashruth are retained and Sabbath observed.
In general yalmakas are worn only in synagogues or appropriate ceremonies but they do not believe the head should always be covered.

Reformed Jews do not feel it necessary to be "kosher" and nothing is prohibited on Sabbath and many practices are not followed in their synagogues or temples.
Heads are uncovered and tallises (ceremonial cape) are not worn.

If I was still a practicing Conservative view, I would (as Hadassah) not be doing this during the Sabbath. Sundown Friday through Saturday sunset.


This is a rather cursory explanation but should give you a general idea.
There will most likely be disagreement on some specifics in my disciptions.

[CID_0687]

What are the laws of kashruth that you speak of?

[Mimiheart]

There are several denominations in the 3 main divisions of Judaism
Orthodox, Conservative and Reformed.

Generally Othodox Jews retain most rites, customs and practices that other groups do not.
Without over-generalizing all Chasidic sects are orthodox but all orthodox Jews are not Chasidic.
Generaly Orthodox Jews always have their heads covered and wear an undergarment called tzytes.
Men and women are separated in synagogues and God is prayed to several times per day.
Rules of Kashruth are strictly followed.
No work of any sort is allowed on the Sabbath.

Conservative Jews (which I was) retain many rites but not all and some in lesser degrees.
Laws of kashruth are retained and Sabbath observed.
In general yalmakas are worn only in synagogues or appropriate ceremonies but they do not believe the head should always be covered.

Reformed Jews do not feel it necessary to be "kosher" and nothing is prohibited on Sabbath and many practices are not followed in their synagogues or temples.
Heads are uncovered and tallises (ceremonial cape) are not worn.

If I was still a practicing Conservative view, I would (as Hadassah) not be doing this during the Sabbath. Sundown Friday through Saturday sunset.


This is a rather cursory explanation but should give you a general idea.
There will most likely be disagreement on some specifics in my disciptions.
Don't listen to Cap... it's Reform Jews, not Reformed, and they most certainly wear head coverings and prayer shawls, at least they do where I teach. And many keep kosher as well.

Orthodox: Obey all laws that it is possible for you to obey. (So if there's a law that only applies to men, women don't have to follow it. If there's a law that applies to all people and can be practiced without the Temple, then all need to follow it.)

Conservative: Some laws are more important than others. Example, going to shul* on Shabbat is more important than not lighting a fire, therefore, it is okay to drive on Shabbat if you are going to shul.

Reform: Do what you want to, the more the better, but it doesn't have to interfere with everyday life.

There are subsections of each group, and there are some Reform synagogues that are more conservative than the Conservative ones.

There's also Sephardi and Ashkenazi (and a few others) those aren't really the same as the above categories, more what traditions you have based on where your family is from. Sephardi Jews come from Spain and the Middle East, Ashkenazi from Eastern Europe, over time some of the customs changed between the two groups. For example Ashkenazi Jews don't eat peanuts on Passover, while Sephardi Jews do.

There's also Reconstructionist, which I don't really know much about. From what I learned a few years ago, it seemed they were trying to make Judaism with G-d. I could be way off the mark on that, though.

Renewal Judaism is also one I haven't studied much. It's very "hippie." I went to a service of their once, and people were playing gourds and wearing tie-die shirts. They tend to focus on the mystical.

As for how each movement started, some of it was trying to "fit in" when moving to different countries. The more "Jewish" one seemed, the more of a target they became. When fleeing one country because of being a target, it made some sort of sense to hide in a way in the new country. Some of it is laziness. I'd much rather drive to shul than walk.

*Glossary of terms: shul, synagogue = house of worship, equivalent to a church

[Mimiheart]

What are the laws of kashruth that you speak of?kashrut laws are the dietary laws, keeping kosher

Don't mix meat and dairy. (Meat is cow, sheep, chicken, turkey. Fish and eggs are not considered meat or dairy according to the dietary laws.)

Certain meats are prohibited. (Pig and rabbit for starters. Mammals have to have cloven hooves AND chew their cud.)

Things that swim in the water are allowed if they have fins and scales. Salmon is okay--fins and scales. Shark is not--fins, no scales. Shrimp is not--no fins, no scales.

There's also some laws regarding which bugs are allowed. I don't know those off the top of my head and I'm too tired right now to look them up.

Fruits and vegetables of all kinds are kosher and not considered meat or dairy. There's some rules regarding wine/grape juice, but I'm not very familiar with them.

[Poisonshady313]

What are the laws of kashruth that you speak of?

Mostly dietary laws. Y'know... kosher and non-kosher food. Of course, non-food items can be considered kosher or not kosher... which basically translates to "permissible for use".

For example, a Torah scroll may or may not be kosher. That is, if there are any mistakes, it is unkosher... unfit for reading in synagogue...



As for the general question about Orthodox, Conservative, and Reform....

The main difference lies in the degree to which a person believes the Torah is divine, spoken by God to Moses on Mt. Sinai, and how binding said laws must be.

Until the Reform movement started, all Jews were simply just Jews... and regardless of their degree of observance, they all basically believed that the Torah and the oral law was God given at Mt. Sinai.

The Reform movement came about which had Judaism as more of a cultural identity with a common bond, but no divine obligation to adhere to the Torah.

The Conservative movement came about to say that the reform movement moved too far away from Judaism's roots and common purpose (the Torah), and believed that the Torah was pretty much from God, but the Rabbis interpretation of how to apply a law given so many years ago today are less than inspired.


That's my $0.02

[captusa]

Don't listen to Cap... it's Reform Jews, not Reformed, and they most certainly wear head coverings and prayer shawls, at least they do where I teach. And many keep kosher as well.

Orthodox: Obey all laws that it is possible for you to obey. (So if there's a law that only applies to men, women don't have to follow it. If there's a law that applies to all people and can be practiced without the Temple, then all need to follow it.)

Conservative: Some laws are more important than others. Example, going to shul* on Shabbat is more important than not lighting a fire, therefore, it is okay to drive on Shabbat if you are going to shul.

Reform: Do what you want to, the more the better, but it doesn't have to interfere with everyday life.

There are subsections of each group, and there are some Reform synagogues that are more conservative than the Conservative ones.

There's also Sephardi and Ashkenazi (and a few others) those aren't really the same as the above categories, more what traditions you have based on where your family is from. Sephardi Jews come from Spain and the Middle East, Ashkenazi from Eastern Europe, over time some of the customs changed between the two groups. For example Ashkenazi Jews don't eat peanuts on Passover, while Sephardi Jews do.

There's also Reconstructionist, which I don't really know much about. From what I learned a few years ago, it seemed they were trying to make Judaism with G-d. I could be way off the mark on that, though.

Renewal Judaism is also one I haven't studied much. It's very "hippie." I went to a service of their once, and people were playing gourds and wearing tie-die shirts. They tend to focus on the mystical.

As for how each movement started, some of it was trying to "fit in" when moving to different countries. The more "Jewish" one seemed, the more of a target they became. When fleeing one country because of being a target, it made some sort of sense to hide in a way in the new country. Some of it is laziness. I'd much rather drive to shul than walk.

*Glossary of terms: shul, synagogue = house of worship, equivalent to a church

Where I was brought up (Albany) and in my other experiences Reform Jews do not keep kosher and do not use head coverings and prayer shawls.
In Albany, when I was young there were 2 Orthodox synagogues, both Ashkenazi and neither Chasidic.
My grandfather was Orthodox and My family were Conservative.
In may teens there were no Orthodox synagogues, several Conservative and Reform Congregations.
None of the Reform congregations kept kosher nor wore prayer shawls and skull caps during services.
I was a member of a Jewish fraternal group and I recall the son of a kosher butcher storming out of a meeting where an event was scheduled (perhaps a friday night service) and it was suggested the Reform congregations be invited.


Of course as you stated the some Reform congregations are more Conservative than some Conservative in my experience most Reform Congregations are far less Conservative than others.

[Mimiheart]

Where I was brought up (Albany) and in my other experiences Reform Jews do not keep kosher and do not use head coverings and prayer shawls.
In Albany, when I was young there were 2 Orthodox synagogues, both Ashkenazi and neither Chasidic.
My grandfather was Orthodox and My family were Conservative.
In may teens there were no Orthodox synagogues, several Conservative and Reform Congregations.
None of the Reform congregations kept kosher nor wore prayer shawls and skull caps during services.
I was a member of a Jewish fraternal group and I recall the son of a kosher butcher storming out of a meeting where an event was scheduled (perhaps a friday night service) and it was suggested the Reform congregations be invited.I know that they didn't for a time. They also held services on Sundays for a time. But every Reform congregation I know of now uses the prayer shawl and head covering, at least at the synagogue--and they have for at least 20 years. And while individual members may or may not keep kosher, and it isn't an official stance that you must keep kosher, I know of many Reform synagogues that do.

[captusa]

I know that they didn't for a time. They also held services on Sundays for a time. But every Reform congregation I know of now uses the prayer shawl and head covering, at least at the synagogue--and they have for at least 20 years. And while individual members may or may not keep kosher, and it isn't an official stance that you must keep kosher, I know of many Reform synagogues that do.

Not having been to a synagogue in quite a while so I yield.
Obviously each congregation defines itself and its boundries and there is no central authority for each denomination.

[MissyNetanyahu]

Not having been to a synagogue in quite a while so I yield.
Obviously each congregation defines itself and its boundries and there is no central authority for each denomination.

I only disagree with the wearing of the shawl if you are not jewish. It is sacrilige as far as I'm concerned. The same goes for the head covering.

Thanx,
Missy

[Mimiheart]

Not having been to a synagogue in quite a while so I yield.
Obviously each congregation defines itself and its boundries and there is no central authority for each denomination.There's the Union for Reform Judaism, which is the central authority for the Reform movement. The Conservative Movement has the United Synagogue of Conservative Judaism. Orthodox is a bit different. There's Chabad, Young Israel, Aish... and there's the Union of Orthodox Congregations (which used to be rabbis instead of congregations) but I'm not sure how much they are are an organization that governs so much as informs.

[Mimiheart]

I only disagree with the wearing of the shawl if you are not jewish. It is sacrilige as far as I'm concerned. The same goes for the head covering.

Thanx,
MissyThere is no law saying a non-Jew cannot wear a head covering. Non-Jews are required to wear one at the Wailing Wall. My son wears one whenever we are in a sanctuary. (I'm Bat Noach.)

[noelle12]

There's also some laws regarding which bugs are allowed. I don't know those off the top of my head and I'm too tired right now to look them up.


Do you mean bugs to eat? Wow! I didn't know that.

[noelle12]

There is no law saying a non-Jew cannot wear a head covering. Non-Jews are required to wear one at the Wailing Wall. My son wears one whenever we are in a sanctuary. (I'm Bat Noach.)

What is Bat Noach?

[noelle12]

Thank you to everyone who contributed. Please continue to explain the beliefs of Judaism as much as you would like. I am not really able to ask many questions because I don't know what to ask, but I will continue to read this thread, and as questions arise I'll certainly ask.

I appreciate each of your contributions.

[captusa]

There is no law saying a non-Jew cannot wear a head covering. Non-Jews are required to wear one at the Wailing Wall. My son wears one whenever we are in a sanctuary. (I'm Bat Noach.)

As far as I know, it is common courtesy for anyone in a synagogue to have his head covered. Of course all during this discussion none of us have mentioned that the requirement of head covering is only for men.

[noelle12]

Okay, I have some more questions:

1. What is the Jewish belief regarding our existence prior to being born here on earth?

2. What is the Jewish belief of our purpose here on earth?

3. What is the Jewish belief regarding life after death?

[Mimiheart]

Okay, I have some more questions:

1. What is the Jewish belief regarding our existence prior to being born here on earth?

2. What is the Jewish belief of our purpose here on earth?

3. What is the Jewish belief regarding life after death?

1. I'm not sure I understand the first question.

2. Short answer: Tikkun Olam--healing the world.

3. There really isn't one belief. The important thing in Judaism is living a good, moral life. What happens when we die will happen when we die. According to most Jews, all people have a place in the World to Come save truly evil people. Some believe in reincarnation of a sort. Some believe in a purgatory-type place, sort of a holding cell for a year or so until you are ready to go to the World to Come. (Not explaining that well.) Either way, the focus is on living your life to the best of your abilities.

[Mimiheart]

As far as I know, it is common courtesy for anyone in a synagogue to have his head covered. Of course all during this discussion none of us have mentioned that the requirement of head covering is only for men.Married women also cover their hair in Orthodox and some Conservative movements. (Different rule, but should be mentioned.) Many women in Reform and Conservative wear a kippah (head covering we're talking about), though it isn't required.

[noelle12]

1. I'm not sure I understand the first question.

2. Short answer: Tikkun Olam--healing the world.


Do jews believe that we (mankind) existed in any way prior to being born on earth?

Can you clarify "healing the world"?

Thank you for your answers.

[meggers49]

I only disagree with the wearing of the shawl if you are not jewish. It is sacrilige as far as I'm concerned. The same goes for the head covering.

Thanx,
Missy

we have a synagogue here that must be Reform. We (at my Church) have been going to a Bar Mitzvah every year to learn some Jewish traditions. It is part of our OT studies. They also attend a Seder, something I've never done, but wish i could.

Women are not asked to cover our heads (though at my neighbor's son's Bar Mitzvah eeeeeons ago, we did, but different congregation, and different era...) but the males are.

If it was offered to me, I would, out of respect for your faith.

And i will add, I find it the most moving thing. My neighbor, when he read from the Torah.....I cried.
When we went to the Bar Mitzvah with my daughter's class, when they opened the curtain to where the Torah was kept (tabernacle?), I cried. That was nearly 6000 years of my faith in front of me and I was overwhelmed.

[Mimiheart]

Do jews believe that we (mankind) existed in any way prior to being born on earth?

Can you clarify "healing the world"?

Thank you for your answers.Not as far as I know.

Healing the world, maybe perfecting the world is a better translation. Most Jews right now try and lead by example. Tikkun olam encompasses social justice, charity, and spiritual awareness. It involves things such as making sure the world at large knows of the Noachide laws (don't steal, murder, be cruel to animals, or be sexually immoral), along with trying to make sure Jews follow all the laws applicable to them.

[noelle12]

Not as far as I know.

Healing the world, maybe perfecting the world is a better translation. Most Jews right now try and lead by example. Tikkun olam encompasses social justice, charity, and spiritual awareness. It involves things such as making sure the world at large knows of the Noachide laws (don't steal, murder, be cruel to animals, or be sexually immoral), along with trying to make sure Jews follow all the laws applicable to them.

Thank you for your help. :)

[Mimiheart]

we have a synagogue here that must be Reform. We (at my Church) have been going to a Bar Mitzvah every year to learn some Jewish traditions. It is part of our OT studies. They also attend a Seder, something I've never done, but wish i could.

Women are not asked to cover our heads (though at my neighbor's son's Bar Mitzvah eeeeeons ago, we did, but different congregation, and different era...) but the males are.

If it was offered to me, I would, out of respect for your faith.

And i will add, I find it the most moving thing. My neighbor, when he read from the Torah.....I cried.
When we went to the Bar Mitzvah with my daughter's class, when they opened the curtain to where the Torah was kept (tabernacle?), I cried. That was nearly 6000 years of my faith in front of me and I was overwhelmed.The Torah is in an ark. The tabernacle was more of a portable sanctuary when the Jews were wandering the desert.

[JenT]

orthodox won't answer until tomorrow night

wow this is like the big test isn't it, who's obeying...

[Mimiheart]

wow this is like the big test isn't it, who's obeying...I remember going to a Jewish website once on Shabbat. There was a warning that popped up on the page, "According to your computer's time clock, it is now Shabbat, if you are Jewish, we ask that you not visit this site on this day, get off your computer, and study Torah or correct your clock to the right time."

I haven't seen it since then.

[birdonawire]

1. I'm not sure I understand the first question.

2. Short answer: Tikkun Olam--healing the world.

3. There really isn't one belief. The important thing in Judaism is living a good, moral life. What happens when we die will happen when we die. According to most Jews, all people have a place in the World to Come save truly evil people. Some believe in reincarnation of a sort. Some believe in a purgatory-type place, sort of a holding cell for a year or so until you are ready to go to the World to Come. (Not explaining that well.) Either way, the focus is on living your life to the best of your abilities.

So the Jewish religion does not focus on the after life?

Do you have some links that will explain this in detail please?:)

[Mimiheart]

So the Jewish religion does not focus on the after life?

Do you have some links that will explain this in detail please?:)http://www.jewfaq.org/olamhaba.htm

[birdonawire]

http://www.jewfaq.org/olamhaba.htm


Thank you!!!!:)

[meggers49]

The Torah is in an ark. The tabernacle was more of a portable sanctuary when the Jews were wandering the desert.

thanks, i knew it wasn't right, but i just couldn't remember. didn't they keep the Ten Commandments in the ark? with the gold angels on the ends........and they died if they touched it except by carrying it?...... made of acacia wood? (this is my memory, so i'm probably completely wrong)

[meggers49]

I remember going to a Jewish website once on Shabbat. There was a warning that popped up on the page, "According to your computer's time clock, it is now Shabbat, if you are Jewish, we ask that you not visit this site on this day, get off your computer, and study Torah or correct your clock to the right time."

I haven't seen it since then.

i LOVE it.

[Mimiheart]

thanks, i knew it wasn't right, but i just couldn't remember. didn't they keep the Ten Commandments in the ark? with the gold angels on the ends........and they died if they touched it except by carrying it?...... made of acacia wood? (this is my memory, so i'm probably completely wrong)That's the Ark of the Covenant--aron habrit. The Torah is in the "Holy Ark" aron kodesh. This is not to be confused with Noah's Ark, which is a completely unrelated word in Hebrew.

[Mimiheart]

i LOVE it.It was actually a bit disturbing.

[RayMan]

It was actually a bit disturbing.

Yet another example of how we can all view the same thing and yet come away with differing thoughts and feelings. Happens a lot around here. :)

[Mimiheart]

Yet another example of how we can all view the same thing and yet come away with differing thoughts and feelings. Happens a lot around here. :)My first thought was, websites can tell what time my computer thinks it is? What ELSE can they tell? My second thought was, cool idea.

[Poisonshady313]

Okay, I have some more questions:
1. What is the Jewish belief regarding our existence prior to being born here on earth?


I'll try to tackle this one.

This is stuff I'm remembering from a long time ago...

We're souls that temporarily inhabit our body. Our body is not ours... it belongs to God... and he lets us inhabit it while we go about living. (Which supports the reasoning why tattoos and piercings are forbidden)

Each soul has a task to perform, though we don't know what our specific task is, we take our cues from the Torah on how to live.

Some Jews believe in reincarnation... a person that dies before their task is complete will have another shot... and they are taken once their task is complete (which may help to explain people who die particularly untimely deaths).

[MR. MISTER]

As far as I know, it is common courtesy for anyone in a synagogue to have his head covered. Of course all during this discussion none of us have mentioned that the requirement of head covering is only for men.
I have been to a few synagogues that have had signs by the entrance asking all men to wear a yarmulke and suggesting the women may use a lace doyley (both provided).

In every synagogue I've ever been a member of (growing up and now) even the janitors/shabbos goy would wear a yarmulke.

Alot of women will wear hats - a tradition that is also found in the Black churches.
A few years ago we were at a "Jewish Renaisance" festival put on by the local Lubavitch Center. There were numerous tables selling Judaica/Crafts. There was one table of Black women (dressed in their "Sunday best" selling hats - no doubt the same hats they wear in their churches on Sundays.

[meggers49]

It was actually a bit disturbing.

that it knew where you were coming from? it might have written it to anyone who went to the site on their 24 hr clock.

I look at it as a reminder you need to put your priorities straight, but i could see having it know where you're coming from (maybe from your IP address?) would be disconcerting.

[meggers49]

That's the Ark of the Covenant--aron habrit. The Torah is in the "Holy Ark" aron kodesh. This is not to be confused with Noah's Ark, which is a completely unrelated word in Hebrew.

gotcha, thanks

[meggers49]

I have been to a few synagogues that have had signs by the entrance asking all men to wear a yarmulke and suggesting the women may use a lace doyley (both provided).

In every synagogue I've ever been a member of (growing up and now) even the janitors/shabbos goy would wear a yarmulke.

Alot of women will wear hats - a tradition that is also found in the Black churches.
A few years ago we were at a "Jewish Renaisance" festival put on by the local Lubavitch Center. There were numerous tables selling Judaica/Crafts. There was one table of Black women (dressed in their "Sunday best" selling hats - no doubt the same hats they wear in their churches on Sundays.

I wish we went back to the tradition of wearing head coverings. In my particular church, we can barely get people to dress appropriately. It just galls me to see people in church wearing spaghetti strap tops, sweats and the like.

To me it's like they're saying to God, I'll fit you in between the other stuff and that they have no respect for what they are doing and WHO they are there to see. That would be GOD.

[birdonawire]

I wish we went back to the tradition of wearing head coverings. In my particular church, we can barely get people to dress appropriately. It just galls me to see people in church wearing spaghetti strap tops, sweats and the like.

To me it's like they're saying to God, I'll fit you in between the other stuff and that they have no respect for what they are doing and WHO they are there to see. That would be GOD.

I agree when you go to church ( no matter the denomination) you should wear your best and no shorts and spaghetti straps!!!!

[MissyNetanyahu]

http://www.jewfaq.org/olamhaba.htm

Thank you for that. I hadn't seen this particular site before

[birdonawire]

Bump for more replies from our Jewish friends.

[Poisonshady313]

are there more questions?

[Harmonious]

Do you mean bugs to eat? Wow! I didn't know that.
There are actually four species of bugs that are kosher. They are either grasshoppers or locusts.

Most Jews have lost the tradition of WHICH bugs they are. So, in practice, all insects, bugs, and whatnot are forbidden to all Jews.

[Harmonious]

wow this is like the big test isn't it, who's obeying...

:mrgreen:

[Harmonious]

Bump for more replies from our Jewish friends.

To be honest, the world of Jewish learning is vast. If we started blathering on about any given thing, we could keep going through all eternity and wouldn't be done with HALF of it.

So honestly. It is easier to give us a point to start with, if we don't have something in mind.

As it happens, I have something in mind.

As today is Mother's Day, my father and I went to the cemetery to pay respects to both of his parents last week, and we went to the cemetery locally to pay my mother and my other brother respects today.

One of the things this involves is placing a stone on the headstone. We don't use flowers. I believe Jews did, once upon a time. But the custom has since developed that Jews are not supposed to leave flowers, wreaths, or the like, but a simple stone or pebble on the grave marker.

It makes me smile that someone who knew my brother Carl placed a HUGE chunk of rock on the headstone. I have no idea who put it there, but even though the cemetery caretakers brush off the small stones and pebbles from time to time, they don't touch that big one; someone might notice.

Three weeks from now is the Hebrew date of the anniversary of my brother Carl's death. As a celebration of the "raising of his soul" to an even higher place, the Shabbat before (this year, it is one day before) a handful of friends and I will gather in Queens (because I have a lot of friends who are seriously conducive to learning Torah all day), and we will learn Torah in his honor and memory. We will share the wealth of the merit of the day with other people who wish to elevate the souls of their relatives who passed away within the same week. This year, my maternal grandmother shares the date. My friend Sammy's brother died exactly one day before my brother Carl died, so since he discovered this custom of the Sephardic Jewry (read: descended from Jews living in the Mediterranean, as opposed to Eastern Europe), we worked together to make this day of learning.

This year, it will be 13 years since Carl's passing.

When it comes to discussing things in the World to Come, Jews are pretty much in agreeance that in order to have mobility in the next world, you have to work here in this world. After you leave this world, the concept of mobility is out of the departed soul's hands, as it were. But people can continuously give them upward mobility based on how we remember that person, and the deeds of charity and Torah learning, and other commandments we do in honor of said person.

I had other thoughts, but that works for now.

[Skyholder]

Orthodox Judaism. Orthodox Jews generally see themselves as practicing normative Judaism, rather than belonging to a particular movement. Within Orthodox Judaism there is a spectrum of communities and practices, including Modern Orthodox Judaism, Haredi Judaism, and a variety of movements that have their origins in Hasidic Judaism.

Conservative Judaism or Masorti Judaism. Originated in Germany in the XIX century, but became institutionalized in the United States. After the division between Reform and Orthodox Judaism, the Conservative movement tried to provide Jews seeking liberalization of Orthodox theology and practice with a more traditional and halakhically based alternative to Reform Judaism. It has spread to Ashkenazi communities in Anglophone countries and Israel.

Reform Judaism or Progressive Judaism. Originally formed in Germany as a reaction to traditional Judaism, stresses integration with society and a personal interpretation of the Torah.

Reconstructionist Judaism. A small, liberal Jewish movement, found primarily in the United States. It began as a liberal movement within Conservative Judaism and formally separated in the 1980s.

Jewish Renewal. Founded in the counter-cultural movements of the 1960s and 1970s, it tends to embrace the ecstatic worship style and mysticism of hasidism, while rejecting the halakhic rigor of Orthodox Judaism. Jewish renewal congregations tend to be inclusive on the subject of who is a Jew. The Jewish Renewal movement lacks the formal institutional structure of the other liberal movements.

Humanistic Judaism. A nontheistic movement that emphasizes Jewish culture and history as the sources of Jewish identity. Founded by Rabbi Sherwin Wine, it is centered in North America but has spread to Europe, Latin America, and Israel.

Does that help?
Lee

[noelle12]

Orthodox Judaism. Orthodox Jews generally see themselves as practicing normative Judaism, rather than belonging to a particular movement. Within Orthodox Judaism there is a spectrum of communities and practices, including Modern Orthodox Judaism, Haredi Judaism, and a variety of movements that have their origins in Hasidic Judaism.

Conservative Judaism or Masorti Judaism. Originated in Germany in the XIX century, but became institutionalized in the United States. After the division between Reform and Orthodox Judaism, the Conservative movement tried to provide Jews seeking liberalization of Orthodox theology and practice with a more traditional and halakhically based alternative to Reform Judaism. It has spread to Ashkenazi communities in Anglophone countries and Israel.

Reform Judaism or Progressive Judaism. Originally formed in Germany as a reaction to traditional Judaism, stresses integration with society and a personal interpretation of the Torah.

Reconstructionist Judaism. A small, liberal Jewish movement, found primarily in the United States. It began as a liberal movement within Conservative Judaism and formally separated in the 1980s.

Jewish Renewal. Founded in the counter-cultural movements of the 1960s and 1970s, it tends to embrace the ecstatic worship style and mysticism of hasidism, while rejecting the halakhic rigor of Orthodox Judaism. Jewish renewal congregations tend to be inclusive on the subject of who is a Jew. The Jewish Renewal movement lacks the formal institutional structure of the other liberal movements.

Humanistic Judaism. A nontheistic movement that emphasizes Jewish culture and history as the sources of Jewish identity. Founded by Rabbi Sherwin Wine, it is centered in North America but has spread to Europe, Latin America, and Israel.

Does that help?
Lee

Very helpful. Thanks. Another question: do the different groups of Jews recognize the validity of each other's beliefs and practices? Is there a lot of cooperation? Or is there ever any animosity between different groups?

[noelle12]

I'll try to tackle this one.

This is stuff I'm remembering from a long time ago...

We're souls that temporarily inhabit our body. Our body is not ours... it belongs to God... and he lets us inhabit it while we go about living. (Which supports the reasoning why tattoos and piercings are forbidden)

Each soul has a task to perform, though we don't know what our specific task is, we take our cues from the Torah on how to live.

Some Jews believe in reincarnation... a person that dies before their task is complete will have another shot... and they are taken once their task is complete (which may help to explain people who die particularly untimely deaths).

Is there a way that you can know when your task has been completed? Is it something you "feel" or some kind of spiritual recognition?

[noelle12]

What do you think of the author Chaim Potok as a source of quality information about the culture of the Jewish community? I have read several of his books, and really enjoyed them (especially The Chosen), but since I don't know much about the Jewish community, I don't know how accurate it is. What do you think?

[orbitaldecay]

What do you think of the author Chaim Potok as a source of quality information about the culture of the Jewish community? I have read several of his books, and really enjoyed them (especially The Chosen), but since I don't know much about the Jewish community, I don't know how accurate it is. What do you think?

I read The Chosen few years ago, really enjoyed it too.

[Poisonshady313]

What do you think of the author Chaim Potok as a source of quality information about the culture of the Jewish community? I have read several of his books, and really enjoyed them (especially The Chosen), but since I don't know much about the Jewish community, I don't know how accurate it is. What do you think?

If you want to use it as a basis for anything, use it as a basis to ask questions.

[Poisonshady313]

Is there a way that you can know when your task has been completed? Is it something you "feel" or some kind of spiritual recognition?

I'm not sure about that.

[Mimiheart]

Very helpful. Thanks. Another question: do the different groups of Jews recognize the validity of each other's beliefs and practices? Is there a lot of cooperation? Or is there ever any animosity between different groups?The Reform movement recognizes the validity of the others. Because the Reform and Conservative movements have "thrown out" many of the laws, the Orthodox tend not to recognize them. Since the Reform movement has said that a kid is Jewish if either parent is Jewish, Orthodox Jews will often say that there are non-Jewish members in a Reform congregation. Many times the children do not know that they aren't considered Jewish by all forms of Judaism. (This is one of the most obvious examples of things that the more liberal movements can do to make the more observant ones not recognize them.) Of course a child in that situation can have a Kosher conversion to Judaism, and a person in the Reform or Conservative movements who does have a Jewish mother can always become more observant.

[Harmonious]

Is there a way that you can know when your task has been completed? Is it something you "feel" or some kind of spiritual recognition?

No one knows until their task is done.

It is why some people die at ripe old ages, and some people die at tragically young ages. God, the Eternal Score Keeper, decides that the person's task in life has been completed.

You can feel accomplishment whenever you achieve something. But do we know if any one thing is our ultimate goal? No. God knows.

[noelle12]

If you want to use it as a basis for anything, use it as a basis to ask questions.

It has been a while since I read the book, but I remember that both main characters were really good students in their school. What is jewish school like? (I know there is a name for it, but I can't remember.) Do kids really have large passages of the Torah memorized?

[noelle12]

Of course a child in that situation can have a Kosher conversion to Judaism, and a person in the Reform or Conservative movements who does have a Jewish mother can always become more observant.

How does someone go about converting to Judaism? Can you describe what a Kosher conversion is?

[Poisonshady313]

It has been a while since I read the book, but I remember that both main characters were really good students in their school. What is jewish school like? (I know there is a name for it, but I can't remember.) Do kids really have large passages of the Torah memorized?

I went to a public school.

The name for it is Yeshiva.

I imagine that Yeshiva students do indeed have large passages of Torah memorized... some more than others.

[Poisonshady313]

How does someone go about converting to Judaism? Can you describe what a Kosher conversion is?

From Jewfaq.org:

Conversion

In general, Jews do not try to convert non-Jews to Judaism. In fact, according to halakhah (Jewish Law), rabbis are supposed to make three vigorous attempts to dissuade a person who wants to convert to Judaism.

As the discussion above explained, Jews have a lot of responsibilities that non-Jews do not have. To be considered a good and righteous person in the eyes of G-d, a non-Jew need only follow the seven Noahic commandments, whereas a Jew has to follow all 613 commandments given in the Torah. If the potential convert is not going to follow those extra rules, it's better for him or her to stay a gentile, and since we as Jews are all responsible for each other, it's better for us too if that person stayed a gentile. The rabbinically mandated attempt to dissuade a convert is intended to make sure that the prospective convert is serious and willing to take on all this extra responsibility.

Once a person has decided to convert, the proselyte must begin to learn Jewish religion, law and customs and begin to observe them. This teaching process generally takes at least one year, because the prospective convert must experience each of the Jewish holidays; however, the actual amount of study required will vary from person to person (a convert who was raised as a Jew might not need any further education, for example, while another person might need several years).

After the teaching is complete, the proselyte is brought before a Beit Din (rabbinical court) which examines the proselyte and determines whether he or she is ready to become a Jew. If the proselyte passes this oral examination, the rituals of conversion are performed. If the convert is male, he is circumcised (or, if he was already circumcised, a pinprick of blood is drawn for a symbolic circumcision). Both male and female converts are immersed in the mikvah (a ritual bath used for spiritual purification). The convert is given a Jewish name and is then introduced into the Jewish community.

In theory, once the conversion procedure is complete, the convert is as much a Jew as anyone who is born to the religion. In practice, the convert is sometimes treated with caution, because we have had some of bad experiences with converts who later return to their former faith in whole or in part. However, it is important to remember that Abraham himself was a convert, as were all of the matriarchs of Judaism, as was Ruth, an ancestor of King David.

For more information about conversion to Judaism, see The Conversion to Judaism Home Page. The information provided by Professor Epstein at that site is written from a Conservative perspective, but is valuable to anyone considering conversion to any movement of Judaism.

[noelle12]

From Jewfaq.org:
To be considered a good and righteous person in the eyes of G-d, a non-Jew need only follow the seven Noahic commandments, whereas a Jew has to follow all 613 commandments given in the Torah.

What are the seven Noahic commandments?

[Ron Jon]

What are the seven Noahic commandments?The seven laws listed by the Talmud are:

1. Prohibition of Idolatry: You shall not have any idols before God.
2. Prohibition of Murder: You shall not murder. (Genesis 9:6)
3. Prohibition of Theft: You shall not steal.
4. Prohibition of Sexual Promiscuity: You shall not commit adultery.
5. Prohibition of Blasphemy: You shall not blaspheme God's name.
6. Prohibition of Cruelty to Animals: Do not eat flesh taken from an animal while it is still alive. (Genesis 9:4)
7. Requirement to have just Laws: You shall set up an effective judiciary to fairly judge observance of the preceding six laws.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seven_Laws_of_Noah

http://www.aish.com/wallcam/7_Noachide_Laws.asp

[Harmonious]

What is jewish school like? (I know there is a name for it, but I can't remember.) Do kids really have large passages of the Torah memorized?I went to a Yeshiva for high school. And then a year between high school and college. And then Yeshiva University.

When I was in the Yeshiva high school, we were responsible for waking up and attending prayer services. (It was a dorm school, and it was out of state for me, so that made a LOT of sense.) After breakfast, we learned Jewish studies of various sorts, particularly Bible (a Parsha from the Pentatuach, one of the earlier prophets, and one of the later prophets, each semester the parsha changed) and Law (as practiced) and Mishna, in the morning. After lunch and the afternoon prayer service, we had our secular subjects (English, science, history, math) until somewhere between 5 and 6 pm. Depending on what day of the week it was, we had an extra Jewish class in the evening, usually focused on Jewish philosophy, or more to the point, Jewish Outlook. We took a look at current events and learned how to look at them through a Jewish perspective.

Hebrew language took a while to be firmly grounded as a class, but I believe it settled down to a daily lesson.

I remember that on Sundays, we had Jewish history. I remember that as hard as it was to memorize lists of dynasties and things of that nature, it always felt more personal and was in general easier to remember than the history that we learned every day. I remember that on Sundays, we had the option of learning Latin. (It was mainly for better understanding the vocabulary for the SATs, but it was interesting.)

I remember that there was an extra course of something Jewish in on Thursday afternoon.

And we had to look at other books in the Bible as they became topical. Like, around Purim time, we focused on the Book of Esther.

And yes, we were expected to memorize all kinds of passages from Tanach.

Every week, we were responsible for learning the weekly Parsha from the Pentatuach.

Somewhere around all of this, we swam in the Yale swimming pool on Fridays. Everyone had piano lessons, and we learned French.

My school was very small. My class was the pilot program, so my first year, there were seven students. The second year, there were fifteen students. I can't remember there ever being more than 48 students in the high school at any given time. I graduated in a class of 4.

There is far more to describe, but I'm not sure where to begin. But I have all kinds of stories.

The program was particularly intense. Among other things, on command, each student had to be able to draw a basic floor plan of the Temple, correctly labeling the general rooms, and larger pieces of furnature. On command, each student had to be able to list, draw, and describe each of the priestly garments.

There were all kinds of lists and things that we were expected to memorize. Shirat Chana (the first 10 verses of I Samuel 2), and other passages were among them. Impressive lists, like Haman's ten sons, and all of Achashverosh's advisors were among them. Easily, the Jewish calendar, the months, how many days were in each, the holidays.

We had to know all kinds of details about how each holiday was celebrated. We spent time on understanding the laws of keeping kosher, and what constitutes cooking on Shabbat.

We had to practically memorize, if not give a command performance of explaining the pagentry the Cohen Gadol (High Priest) performed on Yom Kippur. (We learned Mishna Yoma every year.)

It was an all girl's high school, as the principal didn't believe that raging hormones and the comingling of the sexes was a good mix for teenagers. While the idea made me roll my eyes when I was in high school, I realize how useful that actually was in hind sight.

There is so much more. This is enough of a description to start, I think. And this was only my high school experience.

[noelle12]

I went to a Yeshiva for high school. And then a year between high school and college. And then Yeshiva University.

When I was in the Yeshiva high school, we were responsible for waking up and attending prayer services. (It was a dorm school, and it was out of state for me, so that made a LOT of sense.) After breakfast, we learned Jewish studies of various sorts, particularly Bible (a Parsha from the Pentatuach, one of the earlier prophets, and one of the later prophets, each semester the parsha changed) and Law (as practiced) and Mishna, in the morning. After lunch and the afternoon prayer service, we had our secular subjects (English, science, history, math) until somewhere between 5 and 6 pm. Depending on what day of the week it was, we had an extra Jewish class in the evening, usually focused on Jewish philosophy, or more to the point, Jewish Outlook. We took a look at current events and learned how to look at them through a Jewish perspective.

Hebrew language took a while to be firmly grounded as a class, but I believe it settled down to a daily lesson.

I remember that on Sundays, we had Jewish history. I remember that as hard as it was to memorize lists of dynasties and things of that nature, it always felt more personal and was in general easier to remember than the history that we learned every day. I remember that on Sundays, we had the option of learning Latin. (It was mainly for better understanding the vocabulary for the SATs, but it was interesting.)

I remember that there was an extra course of something Jewish in on Thursday afternoon.

And we had to look at other books in the Bible as they became topical. Like, around Purim time, we focused on the Book of Esther.

And yes, we were expected to memorize all kinds of passages from Tanach.

Every week, we were responsible for learning the weekly Parsha from the Pentatuach.

Somewhere around all of this, we swam in the Yale swimming pool on Fridays. Everyone had piano lessons, and we learned French.

My school was very small. My class was the pilot program, so my first year, there were seven students. The second year, there were fifteen students. I can't remember there ever being more than 48 students in the high school at any given time. I graduated in a class of 4.

There is far more to describe, but I'm not sure where to begin. But I have all kinds of stories.

The program was particularly intense. Among other things, on command, each student had to be able to draw a basic floor plan of the Temple, correctly labeling the general rooms, and larger pieces of furnature. On command, each student had to be able to list, draw, and describe each of the priestly garments.

There were all kinds of lists and things that we were expected to memorize. Shirat Chana (the first 10 verses of I Samuel 2), and other passages were among them. Impressive lists, like Haman's ten sons, and all of Achashverosh's advisors were among them. Easily, the Jewish calendar, the months, how many days were in each, the holidays.

We had to know all kinds of details about how each holiday was celebrated. We spent time on understanding the laws of keeping kosher, and what constitutes cooking on Shabbat.

We had to practically memorize, if not give a command performance of explaining the pagentry the Cohen Gadol (High Priest) performed on Yom Kippur. (We learned Mishna Yoma every year.)

It was an all girl's high school, as the principal didn't believe that raging hormones and the comingling of the sexes was a good mix for teenagers. While the idea made me roll my eyes when I was in high school, I realize how useful that actually was in hind sight.

There is so much more. This is enough of a description to start, I think. And this was only my high school experience.

That sounds incredibly difficult! (The same impression I had from reading "The Chosen.") Is it really as hard as it sounds? Or does growing up and living that culture make it (I can't think of the right word - does "normal" work?) normal?

I went to public school, and never felt really challenged (except maybe 10th grade math), so I think that kids are capable of more than what is usually asked of them, but seriously, Yeshiva school sounds almost prohibitively difficult. Am I wrong?

[Harmonious]

That sounds incredibly difficult! (The same impression I had from reading "The Chosen.") Is it really as hard as it sounds? Or does growing up and living that culture make it (I can't think of the right word - does "normal" work?) normal? :) For the record, I didn't grow up in that culture, as it were. From kindergarten to eighth grade, I went to the same public school as Poisonshady and my other two siblings. Why I chose to become Orthodox, and to go to Yeshiva is another story. It may need another post, if not a whole other thread. But if you are interested, I'll tell the story.

But the way I usually tell it, it is a LONG one.

I went to public school, and never felt really challenged (except maybe 10th grade math), so I think that kids are capable of more than what is usually asked of them, but seriously, Yeshiva school sounds almost prohibitively difficult. Am I wrong?
It is difficult to juggle a dual-curriculum. But it was doable, if we put in the work. One of my classmates and all (except the youngest, in a family of five) of her siblings went to Yale.

Was it hard? Absolutely. I was the only student in the school who had a public school background, as opposed to a Yeshiva elementary education. But it was worth it.

To make life a little simpler, the students were forbidden to have television or radios (and it was a time before every kid had their own computer, and the internet was still new). Radio (mostly secular rock music) and television were considered serious distractions, serious wastes of time, and detrimental to the immersion of a religious culture.

And the whole "not talking to boys" thing also helped keep the distraction down.

So we had a lot of time to focus on our work. (Of course, that doesn't mean that students can't get creative with finding new ways to waste time... ;) )

It was a struggle for me, as there were all kinds of things that everyone around me was sort of "born" knowing. But it was worth the effort for me. I worked hard, I studied hard, and it showed. I graduated second in the class. (That probably would have meant a lot more if there were more than four students in the graduating class, but still... I know the competition, and it meant something to me.)

It is hard to be away from your family for the whole of high school. That probably made me appreciate my family all the more. But the kind of support that parents give to teens... I could have used some more of it.

Still, we had lots of fun. Almost every Sunday, after class (it was a half-day, as was Friday) we had a field trip of some sort. This could be a trip to the beach to collect shells and other interesting odds and ends (dude, you can't sunbathe in November in Connecticut), or a museum, or a farm, or all kinds of things. I remember when I was in ninth grade, we saw the Christmas production that Yale put on of Gilbert and Sullivan's "HMS Pinafore."

We got to learn a lot about Yale, but our principal (and foremost Bible studies teacher) really pushed for us to go to Stern College (the women's undergraduate school) of Yeshiva University. So, we took several trips to Midtown, Manhattan.

My senior class trip was three days in Nantucket, Massachusetts. We biked around the entire island. The principal's husband, a rabbi, a lawyer, and a historian, had lots to tell us about just about everything.

We often went hiking in the local woodland areas outside of New Haven, CT. I think we called it "The Water Property."

There were problems sometimes too, but what teenagers DON'T have problems? But for the most part, they were manageable by the administration. Realizing the awesome responsibility of acting in loco parentis for all of the out of town, out of city, out of state, and out of country students, the security was particularly tight. Leaving campus was a big deal, and didn't happen lightly.

But it also occurs to me that my high school was unique among Yeshiva high schools. After having lived in Queens for 6 years and meeting more people who went to Yeshivas, not just for high school but for practically if not in fact their entire school careers, I realized that there are programs that focus more on religious studies, and some that focus more on secular studies. Mine was focused strongly on both.

Security and other issues vary from school to school, from neighborhood to neighborhood.

While I might have a tendency to engrandize my high school experience, as I think back fondly of what was, I also realize that it was a very good experience objectively as well.

Yup, it was hard. It was difficult. But it was worth it.

[noelle12]

:) For the record, I didn't grow up in that culture, as it were. From kindergarten to eighth grade, I went to the same public school as Poisonshady and my other two siblings. Why I chose to become Orthodox, and to go to Yeshiva is another story. It may need another post, if not a whole other thread. But if you are interested, I'll tell the story.

But the way I usually tell it, it is a LONG one.



I am enjoying reading your story. If you don't mind sharing, I would love to read your story about becoming Orthodox and going to Yeshiva.

BTW, your description of Yeshiva sounds a lot like what I remember reading about in "The Chosen."

Keep the info coming. I am enjoying it.

[Harmonious]

I am enjoying reading your story. If you don't mind sharing, I would love to read your story about becoming Orthodox and going to Yeshiva.

BTW, your description of Yeshiva sounds a lot like what I remember reading about in "The Chosen."

Keep the info coming. I am enjoying it.Fair enough.

The story starts when I was about five or so. My oldest cousin, Marlene had her Bat Mitzva.

This requires a bit of explanation. See, even if my family isn't precisely Orthodox, my parents always held firmly that if a thing is worth doing, it is worth doing well. So even if my family - in practice - wasn't so far from Conservative Judaism, we always belonged to an Orthodox synagogue.

My father's brother, who is about as religious as my father, if not slightly less so, was never as good with the Hebrew as my father is. As such, he chose to go to a Reform shul.

As a five year old, I noticed the difference between what went on at my shul and what went on at Uncle Norman's shul. While I wasn't educated enough to figure everything out, I realized that a girl in a place where only guys go was out of place. In retrospect, she probably did nothing particularly impressive that children are generally invited to do in any event. But as a five year old, it felt wrong, and scary.

Now, after the service, I heard Marlene being adulated for her learning in Hebrew, and the good job that she did. Kid logic doesn't work the same as adult logic, and I put two and two together and came up with the wrong answer.

My grandfather asked me if I wanted to learn Hebrew, like Marlene? (For reference: in my family, my mother never learned Hebrew, and my father knows how to read it. The girls in my family were given a choice of whether or not to learn Hebrew. The boys in the family were given a different choice: when would they like to start learning Hebrew, in kindergarten ((or nursery school, for Poisonshady)) or in third grade, when the local after school Hebrew school program began.)

I connected learning Hebrew with having a Bat Mitzva like Marlene, and decided that I wanted no part of it! I adamantly refused to learn Hebrew. They tried to coax me to change my mind, by telling me that I could indeed learn Hebrew without having a Bat Mitzva at all. But at five, the connection was solid, and no adult logic was going to change that. I made my decision, and that was that.

Two or three years went by, and it was time for my cousin Linda's Bat Mitzva. Same Reform shul, same general set up. This time, it wasn't scary, but I found the whole thing boring. My mother, who was aware that something about this general scenario bothered me (as girls did not belong up in front, and whatnot), allowed me and my brother Carl to play quietly in the lobby. But when Linda "did her thing," we had to come back into the sactuary, and sit quietly.

Again, when the service was over, my cousin received all kinds of praise and happy attentions. My grandfather, ever persistent with the religious education of his grandkids, asked me again if I wanted to learn Hebrew. Still convinced that if I learned Hebrew I would have to have this type of Bat Mitzva, I remained dead-set against it. The whole business would be boring, and there was no way that I was getting dragged into this!

And then an interesting thing happened. My brother Carl was about to start third grade. He had opted into the third grade choice as opposed to kindergarten. It was the summer. He was going to enter third grade, and I was about to enter fifth grade. And my parents were THRILLED that he was going to start learning Hebrew. They took us to look at the outside of the building, and talked about how exciting this was. Every time they made a fuss about Carl's learning Hebrew, they would take us out to eat, or take us out for ice cream.

I had no idea what master manipulaters my parents were, but dude, they were good.

Finally, the day came that Carl was actually registered. The fuss they made over him was too much. I decided I wanted in, too. I wanted to learn Hebrew, too.

My parents, not so surprisedly, asked me if I was sure about this. Then, with a bit of concern, they pointed out that I would be two years older than everyone in my class. I didn't care. I decided that I wanted to learn Hebrew. And that was final.

(Years later, I was crushed by the fact that the grandfather who was so insistent that I learn Hebrew never lived to see me make this decision.)

Apparently, this change of heart was big news in my shul. The Rabbi of my shul, at the time, was particularly observant of this change, and wanted to see how far he could take the situation. He grabbed the ball and ran with it.

After Hebrew school, one day, the Rabbi of my shul asked me if I wanted "to meet some cool, new, Jewish friends." Never being the popular kid, I was particularly taken with the idea. With a few brief phone calls on his part, he introduced me to NCSY, or the National Conference of Synagogue Youth. It is a youth organization that helps particulary public school Jewish kids learn more about Orthodox Judaism. And the people were nice, and the advisors were great.

I went on all kinds of religious retreats, particularly three of them were all weekend affairs. (I thought it was super cool that I could use "religious reasons" as an excuse to get out of school early, especially when I headed out to parts all over Upstate New York.) I learned Torah, and I understood for the first time what it meant to keep Shabbat. And there was a whole new culture around me that I learned about that was actually there at home, but was nowhere near as emphasized as it was when I was at an NCSY convention.

Continued next post...

[Harmonious]

I was like a sponge. I was learning a lot in Hebrew school, and I was learning a ton in NCSY, but I wanted to learn even more Torah. It was then that I vaguely remember one particular convention that was geared to discuss the difference between public school and a Yeshiva. The differences would never have occured to me because the Jews in the local public school didn't really stand out as Jewish. My family was the most religious family in the district, and that wasn't really saying much at the time. But when it was pointed out to me that religious Jews generally dress differently than most kids, and that keeping kosher meant not eating public school lunches, and other subtleties that I seriously would have missed just for lack of knowing what Orthodox people did, it made a real difference.

And from the Binghamton chapter, there were a handful of kids who went to a Yeshiva Day School, but they didn't have a Yeshiva high school locally, and one particular NCSYer was having a difficult time of transitioning from Yeshiva into a local public high school. I remember one particular person told her story, and she described how the kids made fun of her for always wearing long, modest skirts, and never jeans or short or particularly tight skirts. The kids made fun of her for brown bagging it, as opposed to eating the lunch that everyone else ate. The simple description brought her to tears, and she couldn't go on. I was sitting right next to her, and I held her, hugging her.

And then I thought to myself, "You know, the school that I go to is no picnic. As far as social experiences, it is mediocre at best. But in all honesty, it isn't all THAT bad. Either she had a seriously rotten experience, or she must have come from a seriously cool school experience that simple mediocracy was that much worse for her!"

At the end of the weekend, I told my mother that I wanted to go to Yeshiva. She rolled her eyes, and said, "Sure you do." Coming from one of these conventions, it was common for the NCSYers to envision that they were going to majorly turn their lives around and upside down to become Orthodox in ways that were heretofore unimagined, and then next weekend rolled around, and a more realistic assessment was made about how much of a change we would make in our lives for real.

But this was something that really didn't leave me. I discussed it a few times with my mother. She realized that I wasn't buzzed with fluff that the advisors and directors put in my head, but that I meant it about something that I wanted.

I was in seventh grade at the time, and my mother realized that we could put a significant time between me and the goal. If it was that important, and I was still gung-ho about it, I could go to a Yeshiva high school. But she explained that if I made this decision, it meant lots of life changes. It meant actually keeping Kosher outside of the house, which wasn't something that I was up to doing yet. It meant actually keeping Shabbat. Considering that a lot of musical events that I seriously enjoyed doing happened on Shabbat, this was a major moment of consideration.

(Oh, and for those still interested? I did indeed have a Bat Mitzva, but it didn't look anything like Marlene or Linda's. I didn't lead prayers, but I gave a speech about the weekly portion from the Torah, and its corresponding portion in the prophets.)

It was a serious thing to consider, and I mulled it over. There were lots of choices I had to make. My vocal instructor was grooming me for Juliard. But most performances were on Shabbat. This was something big to consider. There were other things that I thought about.

But towards the end of eighth grade, I decided that going to Yeshiva was the only way that I could truly grow as a person and as a Jew. I can't explain all of the various and sundry issues that helped pave the way to this decision. But there was no question that this was something that I felt was necessary. And my parents supported the decision.

We still had to discuss boundaries, and the fact that I was making a choice that the rest of my family was NOT making, and how we would get along. This took longer than I expected, but it worked itself out eventually. (Mostly. My sister and I are still working out our differences, but that's life.)

I grew to learn it and love it. And I embraced it. And it (and the people involved) embraced me.

It wasn't all fun and games. And sometimes it is difficult being the odd man out. But for the most part, my parents and my brothers supported me and my decision. Going to Israel was a different story altogether, as was how I chose my college. But the fact is that all of this helped to shape the person I am today.

And that is how I got my start on becoming an Orthodox Jew.

[noelle12]

Harmonious,
Thanks for sharing your story. I appreciate you letting me peek a little into your world. It is interesting to me how young you were as you made such important life and religious decisions.

I guess parents must take a special class on how to manipulate.

Do you still sing? Do play other instruments? I come from a fairly musical family myself (not Juliard quality or anything).

I am from upstate New York myself. I was born in Ithaca, and lived in the area of Cayuga Lake until I graduated from high school.

Anyway, thanks for sharing.

[Harmonious]

Harmonious,
Thanks for sharing your story. I appreciate you letting me peek a little into your world. It is interesting to me how young you were as you made such important life and religious decisions. It was a pleasure! :hug:

I guess parents must take a special class on how to manipulate.It is a rare talent. My parents are just that good.

Do you still sing?Yup. When I was in high school, Israel, college, and afterwards, I managed to find people with whom to sing. In college, I found a new vocal instructor. After college, after I was married and divorced, and still living in Queens, I managed to find a women's only music group. It was by women for women only, as per Jewish laws of modesty. Do play other instruments? I come from a fairly musical family myself (not Juliard quality or anything). I'm sorely out of practice, but I play both the clarinet and the piano.

I am from upstate New York myself. I was born in Ithaca, and lived in the area of Cayuga Lake until I graduated from high school.Cool! I was born in Brooklyn, but I grew up in Poughkeepsie, New York (still considered Upstate, althouth Dutchess County is nowhere near as upstate as Ithica). I still live here.

Anyway, thanks for sharing.Thank you for your interest in my story.

[noelle12]

It was a pleasure! :hug:

It is a rare talent. My parents are just that good.

Yup. When I was in high school, Israel, college, and afterwards, I managed to find people with whom to sing. In college, I found a new vocal instructor. After college, after I was married and divorced, and still living in Queens, I managed to find a women's only music group. It was by women for women only, as per Jewish laws of modesty. I'm sorely out of practice, but I play both the clarinet and the piano.

Cool! I was born in Brooklyn, but I grew up in Poughkeepsie, New York (still considered Upstate, althouth Dutchess County is nowhere near as upstate as Ithica). I still live here.

Thank you for your interest in my story.

I sing in an all women's group too. It is a women's barbershop chorus. It is a lot of fun. I don't like all of the make-up and nonsense like that, but I love the harmony. What style of music does your group sing?

I play the piano and the 'cello. Not very good, but still good enough to impress my non-musical friends.

[Harmonious]

I sing in an all women's group too. It is a women's barbershop chorus. It is a lot of fun. I don't like all of the make-up and nonsense like that, but I love the harmony. What style of music does your group sing?Jewish music. The group is out of commission since 1) I'm out of town, and 2) the accompanist had another baby or two. With three kids, she was good to go. But with four, that was one too many to keep up the extra-curricular music activities. And a couple of weeks ago, she had a fifth. (I think this one was a bit of a surprise.)

When I get back to Queens, I'll find another group. Or, when I get to Israel, I'll find another group there.

I play the piano and the 'cello. Not very good, but still good enough to impress my non-musical friends.
:) Kind of like me with the piano and the clarinet.

[Mimiheart]

Add another singer here. I'm actually in a musical at the end of next month. (I can also play piano, violin and viola--again, just well enough to say, "yeah I play those" and warm up a group of singers.)

[Harmonious]

Add another singer here. I'm actually in a musical at the end of next month. (I can also play piano, violin and viola--again, just well enough to say, "yeah I play those" and warm up a group of singers.)

:mrgreen:

[Mimiheart]

Completely off topic--my husband and my oldest child have perfect pitch. My youngest is only three, so it's hard to tell, but if she doesn't have perfect pitch she still has a really good ear. (She plunked out Row Row Row Your Boat on the keyboard in her room tonight.)

[Harmonious]

Completely off topic--my husband and my oldest child have perfect pitch. My youngest is only three, so it's hard to tell, but if she doesn't have perfect pitch she still has a really good ear. (She plunked out Row Row Row Your Boat on the keyboard in her room tonight.)It is a beautiful thing. :)

[noelle12]

Add another singer here. I'm actually in a musical at the end of next month. (I can also play piano, violin and viola--again, just well enough to say, "yeah I play those" and warm up a group of singers.)

Hey, if you could clone yourself a few times we could put together a nice little quartet!

[noelle12]

Completely off topic--my husband and my oldest child have perfect pitch. My youngest is only three, so it's hard to tell, but if she doesn't have perfect pitch she still has a really good ear. (She plunked out Row Row Row Your Boat on the keyboard in her room tonight.)

My sister has perfect pitch. She participated in some study who wanted to see if it was genetic, but none of the rest of my family had it. Another sister is close, but not quite there. I took the test, but I was not even in the ballpark.

[Mimiheart]

My sister has perfect pitch. She participated in some study who wanted to see if it was genetic, but none of the rest of my family had it. Another sister is close, but not quite there. I took the test, but I was not even in the ballpark.I come close. I'm adopted into a completely tone-deaf family. (From what I know of my birth grandmother, she was a music teacher. I don't have much more information on them, and it could be something my mother made up.) My husband's family isn't particularly musical, but they aren't NOT musical either. He was a music major (jazz). I was a music therapy major.

[noelle12]

I come close. I'm adopted into a completely tone-deaf family. (From what I know of my birth grandmother, she was a music teacher. I don't have much more information on them, and it could be something my mother made up.) My husband's family isn't particularly musical, but they aren't NOT musical either. He was a music major (jazz). I was a music therapy major.

There has to be at least some kind of "music gene," but apparently not a "perfect pitch gene." I think my sister with almost perfect pitch can credit musical training. She always took practicing a lot more seriously than I did.

[Harmonious]

As much fun as we're having, I wanted to get back on topic.

Are there any more questions for Jews? We're still willing to answer them...

[noelle12]

As much fun as we're having, I wanted to get back on topic.

Are there any more questions for Jews? We're still willing to answer them...

Right, sorry. Okay, here's a question: has Jewish doctrine changed or evolved since the Old Testament? Does the Old Testament accurately convey Jewish theology? I ask this because Christianity has grown out of Judaism, and Christians and Jews alike accept the Old Testament, but there seems to be a lot of differences between Christian and Jewish beliefs, especially regarding life after death.

[Harmonious]

Right, sorry. It's all good. :mrgreen:
Okay, here's a question: has Jewish doctrine changed or evolved since the Old Testament?This is a very good question, and it is difficult to answer. But I'll give it my best shot.

If you are referring to general philosophy, then no, it hasn't really changed all that much. But if you ask about the development of the laws, or enough about philosophy to deal with the loss of the Temple, then yes, some of the laws have changed.

The entirety of the holidays of Purim and Chanukah were Rabbinically enacted. True, the Book of Esther is a book of the Bible, but Jewish law given by God is not found anywhere Biblically except for the Pentatuach.

There are laws that were enacted in order to help "remember the Temple". There are laws that were enacted as fences around laws that God specifically gave, so that the laws that God gave are not broken accidentally.

As technology developed, it had (and continues to have) to be studied by Rabbis who were also scientists, so they could figure out what laws the new inventions fall under.

Does the Old Testament accurately convey Jewish theology? Well, yes and no. The fact is that any and all of the OT comes with an Oral Tradition that explains the laws, the stories, and lots of other explanations of what goes on in the text. So does it convey Jewish theology? All by itself, no. With the commentaries it was born with? Yes.
I ask this because Christianity has grown out of Judaism, and Christians and Jews alike accept the Old Testament, but there seems to be a lot of differences between Christian and Jewish beliefs, especially regarding life after death.
That is because the concept of life after death is not really discussed much in the OT. It is discussed far more in the Oral Torah. It still a mystery, no matter how well it is discussed.

The concept of salvation in Judaism is physical. It is a salvation from persecution, from death and destruction, from people who would tear Jews away from a Torah way of life.

I'll have to think more deeply about the afterlife to give you a better discussion.

[noelle12]

Where do the commentaries come from? Who writes them?

[Harmonious]

Where do the commentaries come from? Who writes them?
Some of the commentaries were handed down to Israel through Moses.

Some of the insights that are found in much more recent commentaries are written by Rabbis of great learning, who - through lots of learning on their own - can make connections between the texts as they stand, and using the accepted methods of explication, can find new ways of understanding the texts at hand.

For example, one of the commentaries that I refer to an awful lot is Rashi. Amongst other things, he was a brilliant scholar, particularly of Hebrew (and Aramaic) grammar. He sat and sifted through all of the grammatical anomalies and tried to figure out what lessons could be learned from all of this.

Very often, the lesson makes simple sense, and there is a book that can be found in Jewish bookstored called, "What Is Bothering Rashi?" Rashi doesn't always explain what the anomaly is, but he'll explain what is learned from it. Rashi is usually very terse, so it can take a bit to realize what issue caught his attention.

Many times, though, there are other explanations, many that have far older teachings, and he will refer back to Medrash Rabba, or any number of older collections of parables, stories, and explanations that were written for the first time around the same time as the Talmud was put to paper.

Sometimes, he'll simply point out a similar grammatical anomaly elsewhere in Tanach, and will therefore assume that a similar lesson is to be learned.

And this is only describing ONE of the countless Jewish commentaries.

Another interesting one (well... they are all interesting, but you'll see why I particularly like this next one) is the Abarbanel. He lived in Spain and was the last Jewish knights in Spain until Rabbi Dr. Mitchell Serels, who received his knighthood around 1992 or thereabouts.

Rabbi Don Yitzchak Abrabanel was a knight and courtier to King Ferdinand and Queen Isabella. And some of his commentary about King Solomon have quite a lot of insight to how royal households work. I remember learning about this as we learned about the building in the Temple in I Kings.

(On a personal note about him, he was so well liked by the Royal family, that when the Jews were exiled, they asked him to stay. He, like Jeremiah, said that there wasn't a chance that he would stay while his people were exiled through pain and destruction. Unlike Jeremiah, he was not convinced to stay in Spain with the remnant, as there was no remnant to stay and comfort.)

All of the Torah scholars who are accepted by the Jews at large have their reasons WHY they are accepted. But regardless, the general understanding is that the scholarship of these people who write commentaries have great knowledge of the Talmud, of the many Medrashic sources, and lots else besides.

[noelle12]

It sounds like constant study is an essential part of the life of a practicing Jew. I imagine that rabbis have to study more than your average person, but it seems like even your average, everyday Jew needs to invest a lot of time and energy in studying to be able to truly live their religion.

What do you think are the most important things you do on a daily basis to "live your religion?" For me, a Mormon, the most important things I do include on Sunday going to my worship services, on Monday having Family Home Evening, on Friday spending quality time with my spouse, and daily reading the scriptures and praying in the morning and in the evening. Each month I spend one day fasting, and I go to the LDS temple each month too. Of course there are the other things that involve just being a good person in general, but I'm talking about specifically religious behavior. What types of activities are in your daily and weekly life to faithfully live your religion?

[Harmonious]

It sounds like constant study is an essential part of the life of a practicing Jew. I imagine that rabbis have to study more than your average person, but it seems like even your average, everyday Jew needs to invest a lot of time and energy in studying to be able to truly live their religion.This is true. :)

What do you think are the most important things you do on a daily basis to "live your religion?" For me, a Mormon, the most important things I do include on Sunday going to my worship services, on Monday having Family Home Evening, on Friday spending quality time with my spouse, and daily reading the scriptures and praying in the morning and in the evening. Each month I spend one day fasting, and I go to the LDS temple each month too. Of course there are the other things that involve just being a good person in general, but I'm talking about specifically religious behavior. What types of activities are in your daily and weekly life to faithfully live your religion?
Hmm... Well, I do have a special time set aside for learning with a friend who lives locally. In all honesty, I could stand to set aside time for prayer, as there are three designated times for formal prayer. (Guys are obligated to pray three times a day. Women, not so much.)

Besides Shabbat and holidays, which are seriously different from every other day, I guess I just go about normal life. I plan what I'm going to eat, although I have to calculate whether it is worth it to eat meat, as I would need to wait 6 hours before eating dairy again. I really SHOULD spend more time on sending my resume out to get a full-time job.

I guess that Torah in practice is more along the lines of how I deal with the people I see from day to day. When I have work, I have a serious work ethic, as having anything less would be considered stealing time and money from my employer.

I spend a lot of time (or so it feels mentally) preparing for Shabbat and holidays. Because I can't travel, I have to plan where and with whom I want to spend the days. Where I am will necessarily change the with whom. Am I going to be home? And if so, what will I cook to prepare? Or, if I'm going to a friend's house, is it one of the weekends that I'm just visiting, or do I need to leave enough time to help my hosts to prepare?

Or do I have enough travel time to get there before Shabbat begins? (This is much more pressing during the winter months than any other time, but it is still important.)

Earlier in the thread, I mentioned that the anniversary of my brother Carl's passing is coming up. There is quite a bit of preparation I need to handle. There are people to call and make sure that the out-of-town folk will have housing or whatnot. There is food to be prepared, and all kinds of things need to be taken care of to prepare for the Day of Learning that I'm preparing on Shabbat.

Oh, and until the holiday of Shavuot, I make sure to count every night what day of the Omer it is. (It is a specific counting of 49 days between the second day of Passover and the day before Shavuot.) Today is the 25th day of the Omer, which is 3 weeks and 4 days of the Omer.

There are other things, but I'm not exactly sure how to explain or what to explain.

I hope that was what you were looking for.

[noelle12]

One thing that kind of makes me sad is when people of different faiths, rather than build on what they have in common, they try to tear down, or criticize each other's faiths. I know that this happens among Christians. Does this ever happen at all between different Jewish traditions (Orthodox, Conservative, and Reformed)?

[RayMan]

Hi Noelle,
Don't expect any posts from our Orthodox Jewish friends posting this late on a Friday afternoon. :cool:

[noelle12]

Hi Noelle,
Don't expect any posts from our Orthodox Jewish friends posting this late on a Friday afternoon. :cool:

Good point. Why do these thoughts always come to my mind on Friday afternoon? I think I started this thread originally on a Friday afternoon. :redface:

[Abe]

Where I was brought up (Albany) and in my other experiences Reform Jews do not keep kosher and do not use head coverings and prayer shawls.
In Albany, when I was young there were 2 Orthodox synagogues, both Ashkenazi and neither Chasidic.
My grandfather was Orthodox and My family were Conservative.
In may teens there were no Orthodox synagogues, several Conservative and Reform Congregations.
None of the Reform congregations kept kosher nor wore prayer shawls and skull caps during services.
I was a member of a Jewish fraternal group and I recall the son of a kosher butcher storming out of a meeting where an event was scheduled (perhaps a friday night service) and it was suggested the Reform congregations be invited.


Of course as you stated the some Reform congregations are more Conservative than some Conservative in my experience most Reform Congregations are far less Conservative than others.
Beyond Orthodox, there is also Ultra-Orthodox, and they keep stricter Kashrut, (called "Gleit Kosher"). Many Orthodox also keep Gleit. The Conservative span a whole area ranging from very liberal Reform all the way to strict Orthodox. There are some Conservative congregations that seat men and women seperately in the shul, and there are some that have evryone sitting together like in church.

The same is true of Reform. They run from stricter than some Conservative congregations to very, very liberal. My first visit to an American Reform shul left me feeling like "the only Jew in church".

I've also heard of "Conservadox". I'm guessing this is a marriage of convenience between wanting to feel Orthodox, but wishing to have the "freedom" of Conservative.

Are you confused yet? Now you know how most of us, Jews, feel. I envy the Orthodox.

[Abe]

wow this is like the big test isn't it, who's obeying...

You'll notice that Orthodox posters like Harm, Shady and Mike never post on Shabbat. Mimi is a Bat Noah, so she posts. I'm almost a "Goy":), so I do too.

[Abe]

I remember going to a Jewish website once on Shabbat. There was a warning that popped up on the page, "According to your computer's time clock, it is now Shabbat, if you are Jewish, we ask that you not visit this site on this day, get off your computer, and study Torah or correct your clock to the right time."

I haven't seen it since then.The Karaite website is offline from whenever Shabbat starts at the easternmost place in the world until it ends at the westernmost.

[Abe]

I agree when you go to church ( no matter the denomination) you should wear your best and no shorts and spaghetti straps!!!!

(whines)...but I LIKE my spaghetti straps...:((

[Mimiheart]

(whines)...but I LIKE my spaghetti straps...:((:dance:

I just go naked under my clothes...

[gpd®]

No one knows until their task is done.

It is why some people die at ripe old ages, and some people die at tragically young ages. God, the Eternal Score Keeper, decides that the person's task in life has been completed.

You can feel accomplishment whenever you achieve something. But do we know if any one thing is our ultimate goal? No. God knows.

Wow great thread, glad it was revived.

So when the various atheists and agnostics here ask, "Why does got let good people die young," there is a great silence amongst the Jews when your faith has such a great answer as listed above.

[CMike11]

You'll notice that Orthodox posters like Harm, Shady and Mike never post on Shabbat. Mimi is a Bat Noah, so she posts. I'm almost a "Goy":), so I do too.



Goya, OOOOboy a

[CMike11]

:dance:

I just go naked under my clothes...

Did someone say naked? :dance:

[Abe]

I went to a Yeshiva for high school. And then a year between high school and college. And then Yeshiva University.

When I was in the Yeshiva high school, we were responsible for waking up and attending prayer services. (It was a dorm school, and it was out of state for me, so that made a LOT of sense.) After breakfast, we learned Jewish studies of various sorts, particularly Bible (a Parsha from the Pentatuach, one of the earlier prophets, and one of the later prophets, each semester the parsha changed) and Law (as practiced) and Mishna, in the morning. After lunch and the afternoon prayer service, we had our secular subjects (English, science, history, math) until somewhere between 5 and 6 pm. Depending on what day of the week it was, we had an extra Jewish class in the evening, usually focused on Jewish philosophy, or more to the point, Jewish Outlook. We took a look at current events and learned how to look at them through a Jewish perspective.

Hebrew language took a while to be firmly grounded as a class, but I believe it settled down to a daily lesson.

I remember that on Sundays, we had Jewish history. I remember that as hard as it was to memorize lists of dynasties and things of that nature, it always felt more personal and was in general easier to remember than the history that we learned every day. I remember that on Sundays, we had the option of learning Latin. (It was mainly for better understanding the vocabulary for the SATs, but it was interesting.)

I remember that there was an extra course of something Jewish in on Thursday afternoon.

And we had to look at other books in the Bible as they became topical. Like, around Purim time, we focused on the Book of Esther.

And yes, we were expected to memorize all kinds of passages from Tanach.

Every week, we were responsible for learning the weekly Parsha from the Pentatuach.

Somewhere around all of this, we swam in the Yale swimming pool on Fridays. Everyone had piano lessons, and we learned French.

My school was very small. My class was the pilot program, so my first year, there were seven students. The second year, there were fifteen students. I can't remember there ever being more than 48 students in the high school at any given time. I graduated in a class of 4.

There is far more to describe, but I'm not sure where to begin. But I have all kinds of stories.

The program was particularly intense. Among other things, on command, each student had to be able to draw a basic floor plan of the Temple, correctly labeling the general rooms, and larger pieces of furnature. On command, each student had to be able to list, draw, and describe each of the priestly garments.

There were all kinds of lists and things that we were expected to memorize. Shirat Chana (the first 10 verses of I Samuel 2), and other passages were among them. Impressive lists, like Haman's ten sons, and all of Achashverosh's advisors were among them. Easily, the Jewish calendar, the months, how many days were in each, the holidays.

We had to know all kinds of details about how each holiday was celebrated. We spent time on understanding the laws of keeping kosher, and what constitutes cooking on Shabbat.

We had to practically memorize, if not give a command performance of explaining the pagentry the Cohen Gadol (High Priest) performed on Yom Kippur. (We learned Mishna Yoma every year.)

It was an all girl's high school, as the principal didn't believe that raging hormones and the comingling of the sexes was a good mix for teenagers. While the idea made me roll my eyes when I was in high school, I realize how useful that actually was in hind sight.

There is so much more. This is enough of a description to start, I think. And this was only my high school experience.

Now that was one DYNAMITE education.

[CMike11]

Now that was one DYNAMITE education.

Harmonious and I went to the same school.

YU was tough in the sense that there was a double program. For me Jewish studies were 9-1, then general studies were 2-8 pm.

Then we had homework.

Nite nite time was kind of late.

I do remember that at midnight, about the whole dorm watched Star Trek (the original)

[CMike11]

Beyond Orthodox, there is also Ultra-Orthodox, and they keep stricter Kashrut, (called "Gleit Kosher"). Many Orthodox also keep Gleit. The Conservative span a whole area ranging from very liberal Reform all the way to strict Orthodox. There are some Conservative congregations that seat men and women seperately in the shul, and there are some that have evryone sitting together like in church.

The same is true of Reform. They run from stricter than some Conservative congregations to very, very liberal. My first visit to an American Reform shul left me feeling like "the only Jew in church".

I've also heard of "Conservadox". I'm guessing this is a marriage of convenience between wanting to feel Orthodox, but wishing to have the "freedom" of Conservative.

Are you confused yet? Now you know how most of us, Jews, feel. I envy the Orthodox.

Glat kosher means blowing up the lungs of the cow and checking for blemishes.

[CMike11]

Harmonius you had access to a swimming pool??

[Abe]

I come close. I'm adopted into a completely tone-deaf family. (From what I know of my birth grandmother, she was a music teacher. I don't have much more information on them, and it could be something my mother made up.) My husband's family isn't particularly musical, but they aren't NOT musical either. He was a music major (jazz). I was a music therapy major.

I realise that you've long since moved to the original subject, but I have to bring thip as it's such a sensitive subject, (sob). I love singing. I've always loved singing. Before my voice changed, I was a soloist in the Anglican Church Choir, (you have to admit, respectable for a Jewish kid:) ). I also sang songs I remembered from Israel, many of them being passages from the Book of Kings or the Song of Songs.

Then a tragedy occured. My voice changed. I still loved singing, but other people (sob) didn't like my singing. This has lasted to this very day.

Hi, my name is Abe, and people don't like my singing...:(

[Meriweather]

I realise that you've long since moved to the original subject, but I have to bring thip as it's such a sensitive subject, (sob). I love singing. I've always loved singing. Before my voice changed, I was a soloist in the Anglican Church Choir, (you have to admit, respectable for a Jewish kid:) ). I also sang songs I remembered from Israel, many of them being passages from the Book of Kings or the Song of Songs.

Then a tragedy occured. My voice changed. I still loved singing, but other people (sob) didn't like my singing. This has lasted to this very day.

Hi, my name is Abe, and people don't like my singing...:( (

Hi. My name is Meri, and people do not like my singing. :(

[CMike11]

:((:(( Hi my name is Mike, and people don't like my singing


Thank you, I feel better now :hug:

[Meriweather]

Hey! I wonder if Goodlife would make a Social Group for us?! :razz:

(No, she wouldn't. I know this because I read TTTM.)

Still, it would be a great idea.

[Abe]

Harmonious and I went to the same school.

YU was tough in the sense that there was a double program. For me Jewish studies were 9-1, then general studies were 2-8 pm.

Then we had homework.

Nite nite time was kind of late.

I do remember that at midnight, about the whole dorm watched Star Trek (the original)

My early Jewish education consisted of going to Israeli secular schools. I went to boarding schools both in East Africa and in Israel. The schools in Africa were parochial Anglican, Catholic and Shi'a Muslim (Ismaili). In Israel, secular, which also included Torah, Tanakh (apart from Torah), Mishnah and Gemara. The level of Tanakh and Talmud, of course, were nothing like what you and Harm had. I'm impressed.

[Abe]

Hi. My name is Meri, and people do not like my singing. :(

(sob) thank you (sob) Meri (sob) :(( could I please (sniff sniff) have a cup of tea with honey (sniff) and some cheesecake?

[Abe]

:((:(( Hi my name is Mike, and people don't like my singing


Thank you, I feel better now :hug:

(gulp) Bless you, Mikey...misery (sob) loves company...:((

[Meriweather]

(sob) thank you (sob) Meri (sob) :(( could I please (sniff sniff) have a cup of tea with honey (sniff) and some cheesecake?


You may. I'll have it waiting for you at the Cafe. :hug:

[noelle12]

Well, I'm glad this thread is active, but my question was overlooked.

Is there ever any feelings among different Jewish traditions that one tradition is ABSOLUTELY RIGHT, and another is way off base, or is there a general sense of "we are all in this together"?

[CMike11]

Well, I'm glad this thread is active, but my question was overlooked.

Is there ever any feelings among different Jewish traditions that one tradition is ABSOLUTELY RIGHT, and another is way off base, or is there a general sense of "we are all in this together"?

Kulanu Yehudim

[birdonawire]

Hi my name is Bird and I used to be a singer and people loved my voice.

Now I have asthma and cant sing!:((


Abe...sorry STILL no spaghetti straps for you mister.:naughty: :lol:

[CID_0687]

Hi my name is Bird and I used to be a singer and people loved my voice.

Now I have asthma and cant sing!:((


Abe...sorry STILL no spaghetti straps for you mister.:naughty: :lol:
Singing with asthma could be interesting...could have kind of a breathless Marilyn Monroe thing. :think:

[noelle12]

Kulanu Yehudim

I don't get it.:redface:

[Predecessor]

I don't get it.:redface:

Kulanu Yehudim - I believe it means "We're all Jews."

[Mimiheart]

Well, I'm glad this thread is active, but my question was overlooked.

Is there ever any feelings among different Jewish traditions that one tradition is ABSOLUTELY RIGHT, and another is way off base, or is there a general sense of "we are all in this together"?Not so much on doctrine. In practice, the Orthodox get very frustrated at the other movements for taking things out. I've noticed it more as I've gotten older, and I can understand the frustration. I teach at a Reform Synagogue, and some of the things they do make me want to pull my hair out. On the big things, the different movements all pretty much agree.

[RayMan]

Singing with asthma could be interesting...could have kind of a breathless Marilyn Monroe thing. :think:

Happy Birthday, Mr President...

[noelle12]

Not so much on doctrine. In practice, the Orthodox get very frustrated at the other movements for taking things out. I've noticed it more as I've gotten older, and I can understand the frustration. I teach at a Reform Synagogue, and some of the things they do make me want to pull my hair out. On the big things, the different movements all pretty much agree.

Thanks Mimiheart.

[noelle12]

Kulanu Yehudim - I believe it means "We're all Jews."

Oh. Thanks. I looked it up (on google) and just saw some youtube song.

[birdonawire]

Singing with asthma could be interesting...could have kind of a breathless Marilyn Monroe thing. :think:

Yeah I wish.

It's more like one-second the sound is there and the next second there is NO sound.

I will give it a try though.;)

[RayMan]

Yeah I wish.

It's more like one-second the sound is there and the next second there is NO sound.

I will give it a try though.;)

Maybe your husband is hitting the mute button on your remote. ;) CLICK!

[birdonawire]

Maybe your husband is hitting the mute button on your remote. ;) CLICK!

I hadnt thought of that! :lol:

[CMike11]

Just to give a little more about Judaism, I think below is important too.

Below are two links, both with the English translations.

1) The Israeli national anthum

2) It's a song called "Jerusalem of Gold", which speaks about the importance of Jerusalem to Jews.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s1I6d0OTSOA


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V5SePLTBSU0&feature=related

[Harmonious]

Now that was one DYNAMITE education.

Indeed, it was. Thank you for noticing.

[Harmonious]

Harmonius you had access to a swimming pool??
Yup. We had access to a local public high school's swimming pool, long after hours. I'm not sure how this was arranged, but it was a beautiful thing.

[Harmonious]

Hi my name is Bird and I used to be a singer and people loved my voice.

Now I have asthma and cant sing!:((


It's time to relearn breath control, love. It can be done.

I ALSO have asthma (although my case isn't particularly serious anymore), and by training around it, you CAN sing. It will take more effort, at first, but it is absolutely doable.

[birdonawire]

It's time to relearn breath control, love. It can be done.

I ALSO have asthma (although my case isn't particularly serious anymore), and by training around it, you CAN sing. It will take more effort, at first, but it is absolutely doable.


Thank you I will keep trying...:hug:

[Koushi Shinigami]

Hi my name is Bird and I used to be a singer and people loved my voice.

Now I have asthma and cant sing!:((


Abe...sorry STILL no spaghetti straps for you mister.:naughty: :lol:

:( I'm sorry to hear that.

[CMike11]

Yup. We had access to a local public high school's swimming pool, long after hours. I'm not sure how this was arranged, but it was a beautiful thing.

Women always get the good stuff :snooty:

[Koushi Shinigami]

Thank you I will keep trying...:hug:

How much can you sing before an attack?

[Harmonious]

Women always get the good stuff :snooty:Hmm... The guy's campus has its OWN pool, and you have ASTRONOMY available as a course of study. The women have no such thing.

(I almost rejected Stern for that. Life got complicated, and I changed majors.)

[CMike11]

Hmm... The guy's campus has its OWN pool, and you have ASTRONOMY available as a course of study. The women have no such thing.

(I almost rejected Stern for that. Life got complicated, and I changed majors.)


Not when I was there. I don't recall a pool.

I also don't remember an astronomy course.

I could have just forgoten.

However, you also got midtown manhattan, we got washington heights.

[Harmonious]

Not when I was there. I don't recall a pool.

I also don't remember an astronomy course.Dude, the top of Belfer Hall is the perfect astronomy tower, being the highest point in the entire City. And it is used for that purpose, in addition to being the signal for YU's radio station.

I could have just forgoten.You've forgotten. I was also there a few years later than you were.

However, you also got midtown manhattan, we got washington heights.This is indisputably correct.

[noelle12]

I understand that Jews are still waiting for the Messiah. What do you (the Jewish posters) believe about the Messiah? How will you know Him when He comes?

[Abe]

There are several denominations in the 3 main divisions of Judaism
Orthodox, Conservative and Reformed.

Generally Othodox Jews retain most rites, customs and practices that other groups do not.
Without over-generalizing all Chasidic sects are orthodox but all orthodox Jews are not Chasidic.
Generaly Orthodox Jews always have their heads covered and wear an undergarment called tzytes.
Men and women are separated in synagogues and God is prayed to several times per day.
Rules of Kashruth are strictly followed.
No work of any sort is allowed on the Sabbath.

Conservative Jews (which I was) retain many rites but not all and some in lesser degrees.
Laws of kashruth are retained and Sabbath observed.
In general yalmakas are worn only in synagogues or appropriate ceremonies but they do not believe the head should always be covered.

Reformed Jews do not feel it necessary to be "kosher" and nothing is prohibited on Sabbath and many practices are not followed in their synagogues or temples.
Heads are uncovered and tallises (ceremonial cape) are not worn.

If I was still a practicing Conservative view, I would (as Hadassah) not be doing this during the Sabbath. Sundown Friday through Saturday sunset.


This is a rather cursory explanation but should give you a general idea.
There will most likely be disagreement on some specifics in my disciptions.
Not bad for a non-practicing Conservative. What you said was right and gives a start.

I'd give a good description, but Harmoneous will do even better, so I suggest you wait until she comes on. I, too, am non-practicing, and there are "holes" in my knowledge.

[Harmonious]

I understand that Jews are still waiting for the Messiah. What do you (the Jewish posters) believe about the Messiah? How will you know Him when He comes?

We believe that he will be descended from King David, biologically on his father's side.

We believe that he will convince all the Jews of the world to move to Israel.

We believe that he will be a wise monarch, who will be knowledgeable in Torah matters as well as all manners of secular matters.

We believe that he will convince the Jews of the world that living as an Orthodox Jew is the only way to go, and he will convince the non-Jews of the world that they should put their religious efforts into being Bnei Noach.

We believe that he will be responsible for the rebuilding of the Temple in Jerusalem.

We believe that he will be responsible for precipitating world peace.

He will be quite an individual, a totally remarkable human being, but only a human being.

[Harmonious]

Not bad for a non-practicing Conservative. What you said was right and gives a start.

I'd give a good description, but Harmoneous will do even better, so I suggest you wait until she comes on. I, too, am non-practicing, and there are "holes" in my knowledge.
Thank you kindly, but Mimi did an amazing job on an earlier page.

:hug:

[noelle12]

We believe that he will be descended from King David, biologically on his father's side.

We believe that he will convince all the Jews of the world to move to Israel.

We believe that he will be a wise monarch, who will be knowledgeable in Torah matters as well as all manners of secular matters.

We believe that he will convince the Jews of the world that living as an Orthodox Jew is the only way to go, and he will convince the non-Jews of the world that they should put their religious efforts into being Bnei Noach.

We believe that he will be responsible for the rebuilding of the Temple in Jerusalem.

We believe that he will be responsible for precipitating world peace.

He will be quite an individual, a totally remarkable human being, but only a human being.

Thanks for this information. I have some follow-up questions, if that's okay.

Are the descendants of King David known well enough to know if someone is a biological descendant of King David?

Will he be the monarch of Israel?

Can you share more information about what consists of being Bnei Noach

Thanks.

[CMike11]

I understand that Jews are still waiting for the Messiah. What do you (the Jewish posters) believe about the Messiah? How will you know Him when He comes?

I recently posted this in another thread.

My comments are in green. Everything else is straight text

Michah 4:3

3. And he shall judge between many peoples and reprove mighty nations afar off; and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning hooks; nations shall not lift the sword against nation; neither shall they learn war anymore.(He will bring in world peace)

http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/16135/jewish/Chapter-37.htm

Ezekiel 37

21. And say to them, So says the Lord God: Behold I will take the children of Israel from among the nations where they have gone, and I will gather them from every side, and I will bring them to their land.(All the jews will be brought to Israel)

22. And I will make them into one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel, and one king shall be to them all as a king; and they shall no longer be two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms anymore.(There will be one recognized king by all the jews)

23. And they shall no longer defile themselves with their idols, with their detestable things, or with all their transgressions, and I will save them from all their habitations in which they have sinned, and I will purify them, and they shall be to Me as a people, and I will be to them as a God.

24. And My servant David shall be king over them, and one shepherd shall be for them all, and they shall walk in My ordinances and observe My statutes and perform them.(the messiah will be a descendent of David)

25. And they shall dwell on the land that I have given to My servant,
to Jacob, wherein your forefathers lived; and they shall dwell upon it, they and their children and their children's children, forever; and My servant David shall be their prince forever.(Not only will all the jews be brought to Israel, they will stay there)

26. And I will form a covenant of peace for them, an everlasting covenant shall be with them; and I will establish them and I will multiply them, and I will place My Sanctuary in their midst forever.(The temple in jerusalem will be rebuilt and stand FOREVER)

27. And My dwelling place shall be over them, and I will be to them for a God, and they shall be to Me as a people.

28. And the nations shall know that I am the Lord, Who sanctifies Israel, when My Sanctuary is in their midst forever."(All the nations will worship one G-D, and ONCE AGAIN, the temple in jerusalem will be rebuilt and stand forever).

How many of these criteria did Jesus fulfill? Zero, Nada. Therefore, for the jews to accept Jesus as the messiah would be distrust the word of G-D.

I am not even getting into Jesus being a divine being to Christians thing.

[CMike11]

Dude, the top of Belfer Hall is the perfect astronomy tower, being the highest point in the entire City. And it is used for that purpose, in addition to being the signal for YU's radio station.

You've forgotten. I was also there a few years later than you were.

This is indisputably correct.

What about a pool?

[Harmonious]

Thanks for this information. It's always a pleasure. :mrgreen:
I have some follow-up questions, if that's okay.Always.

Are the descendants of King David known well enough to know if someone is a biological descendant of King David? They aren't all known, but some families do remember and know. There are also a few landmark individuals in history. For example, people know if they are descended from the family of Hillel, they are descended from King David. If they are descended from Bustenai, they are descended from King David.

Rashi was descended from King David, but he only had three daughters. All of them were noteworthy and praiseworthy, but anyone tracing back to him won't qualify biologically through him, because it won't be a patralineal descent.

The Vilna Gaon was in the past 200 or 300 years. His descendants are from King David.

There are people who know. If Fire Watch kept his Jewish heritage, he is of the right biological line. But identifying as Jewish (without being Christian or any other religion) is so much a given that it wasn't even worthy of note.

There are others who know.

Will he be the monarch of Israel?Yes.

Can you share more information about what consists of being Bnei NoachAbsolutely.

For the most part, it just means living by the Torah as God commanded Noah. Hence, all non-Jews can and should accept this. Mimi is a Bat Noah.

In short, it means following the Seven Laws of Noah.

1) Don't worship idols.
2) Don't curse God.
3) Don't murder.
4) Don't steal or kidnap.
5) Don't have illicit sexual relations.
6) Don't tear the limbs from a living animal. (Eat whatever animal you want. Just make sure it's dead first.)
7) Live by the laws of the land, as long as they don't go against the first 6.

This (http://www.geocities.com/rachav/) is my favorite website that is run by a Bat Noah who calls herself Rachav (like the lady who helped Joshua's spies in the book of Joshua) that explains a lot about what it MEANS to be a Ben Noah. I have a couple others that I like, but I'm fond of this one.

Thanks.You're welcome.

[Harmonious]

What about a pool?The guys have one. The girls borrow one from a local high school in Midtown Mahattan during evening hours.

[noelle12]

<snip>
You're welcome.

Thank you. I always enjoy reading your posts. You are knowledgeable and always polite.

[noelle12]

In short, it means following the Seven Laws of Noah.

1) Don't worship idols.
2) Don't curse God.
3) Don't murder.
4) Don't steal or kidnap.
5) Don't have illicit sexual relations.
6) Don't tear the limbs from a living animal. (Eat whatever animal you want. Just make sure it's dead first.)
7) Live by the laws of the land, as long as they don't go against the first 6.


Is it safe to assume that a Christian would need to renounce their Christianity in order to comply with living in accordance with Bnei Noach?

For example, I feel that I follow the rules as outlined above, but as a Christian I do believe that Jesus Christ was/is the Messiah. Would an Orthodox consider that worshiping an idol?

[Harmonious]

Is it safe to assume that a Christian would need to renounce their Christianity in order to comply with living in accordance with Bnei Noach?Short answer? Yes.

However, if you are living according to Christian principles, you are probably living according to more of the Seven commandments than you might, otherwise. It is not an "all or nothing" game. God gives you credit for what you do right.

But if you wanted to live according to the laws God expects of non-Jews, then yes, a Christian would have to renounce their Christianity.

For example, I feel that I follow the rules as outlined above, but as a Christian I do believe that Jesus Christ was/is the Messiah. Would an Orthodox consider that worshiping an idol?
The Messiah? Not necessarily. Hopelessly wrong? Definitely.

But what is the nature of this mistaken Messiah? Is he one with God? Then that is definitely considered idolatry. Is he God's begotten son? Still idolatry. Do you pray in this guy's name? (You know... "None gets through the Father but through me" thing...) If so, it is less of an idolatry than the others, but it still qualifies.

Is he a teacher you feel attached to? Probably does not count as idolatry. He was misguided in a LOT of teachings about Jews and Judaism, but if you generally follow most of the principles he supposedly taught, then you are probably okay.

It is more complicated than that, but that is a beginning.

[CMike11]

The guys have one. The girls borrow one from a local high school in Midtown Mahattan during evening hours.

Yanno...I seem to recall that when I was there they were going to build one.

I graduated in 1991.

[Harmonious]

Thank you. I always enjoy reading your posts. You are knowledgeable and always polite.I try. :hug:

[Harmonious]

Yanno...I seem to recall that when I was there they were going to build one.

I graduated in 1991.The guys have a pool. I graduated 2001.

[noelle12]

Will he be the monarch of Israel?
Yes.

I don't know that much about the government of Israel, but I understand that Israel is not a monarchy. Do you believe that the type of government will change prior to the coming of the Messiah? Or will the Messiah change the type of government? (I hope that question makes sense. It was perfectly clear in my head.:confused:)

[Harmonious]

I don't know that much about the government of Israel, but I understand that Israel is not a monarchy. Do you believe that the type of government will change prior to the coming of the Messiah? Or will the Messiah change the type of government? (I hope that question makes sense. It was perfectly clear in my head.:confused:)It makes a LOT more sense than you think it did.

I'm not sure of the when and how, but I do believe that the government system in Israel will change dramatically when it is time for the Messiah to come.

[Poisonshady313]

For example, I feel that I follow the rules as outlined above, but as a Christian I do believe that Jesus Christ was/is the Messiah. Would an Orthodox consider that worshiping an idol?
The Messiah? Not necessarily. Hopelessly wrong? Definitely.

But what is the nature of this mistaken Messiah? Is he one with God? Then that is definitely considered idolatry. Is he God's begotten son? Still idolatry. Do you pray in this guy's name? (You know... "None gets through the Father but through me" thing...) If so, it is less of an idolatry than the others, but it still qualifies.

Is he a teacher you feel attached to? Probably does not count as idolatry. He was misguided in a LOT of teachings about Jews and Judaism, but if you generally follow most of the principles he supposedly taught, then you are probably okay.

It is more complicated than that, but that is a beginning.

There's an argument that can be made to suggest that even believing he is the messiah qualifies as idolatry.

The Chabad Rabbi from Poughkeepsie (no need to name drop on a public forum) was giving a sermon one day... I forget about what... and the question came up regarding if someone followed a ruling that was made contrary to the Torah, that it would be idolatry...

The skinny of it is this: Assuming that the Torah is the word of God, to rely and trust in a word or standard that is contrary to the Torah is to rely and trust in something that is not God... which is idolatry. So, if someone were to decide that eating pigs is kosher because the law was written only for desert dwelling Israelites, contrary to the explicit prohibition on the consumption of pigs in Leviticus 11, following that decision would be tantamount to idolatry, because the trust and faith that belongs to God is going towards something that is not God.

So... if we assume that the words of the prophets are also truly the word of God (otherwise, they wouldn't be prophets), the prophecies regarding the Messiah set an absolute standard for what the Messiah will be and the circumstances of his arrival. Given the fact that those circumstances have not come to fruition, to believe anyone in the course of history was the Messiah foretold by the prophets is to believe and trust in something other than God... and believing in something other than God (which is to say, instead of God) is idolatry.

[RayMan]

It makes a LOT more sense than you think it did.

I'm not sure of the when and how, but I do believe that the government system in Israel will change dramatically when it is time for the Messiah to come.

And that will be because the Jews pretty much all recognize him as the Messiah?

(I say pretty much because, let's face it, you can't get everybody to agree on anything.)

[RayMan]

There's an argument that can be made to suggest that even believing he is the messiah qualifies as idolatry.

The Chabad Rabbi from Poughkeepsie (no need to name drop on a public forum) was giving a sermon one day... I forget about what... and the question came up regarding if someone followed a ruling that was made contrary to the Torah, that it would be idolatry...

The skinny of it is this: Assuming that the Torah is the word of God, to rely and trust in a word or standard that is contrary to the Torah is to rely and trust in something that is not God... which is idolatry. So, if someone were to decide that eating pigs is kosher because the law was written only for desert dwelling Israelites, contrary to the explicit prohibition on the consumption of pigs in Leviticus 11, following that decision would be tantamount to idolatry, because the trust and faith that belongs to God is going towards something that is not God.

So... if we assume that the words of the prophets are also truly the word of God (otherwise, they wouldn't be prophets), the prophecies regarding the Messiah set an absolute standard for what the Messiah will be and the circumstances of his arrival. Given the fact that those circumstances have not come to fruition, to believe anyone in the course of history was the Messiah foretold by the prophets is to believe and trust in something other than God... and believing in something other than God (which is to say, instead of God) is idolatry.

To paraphrase Reeder,

"Grr. You make it hard to argue."

Oh wait, that's not a paraphrase, that's a quote.

[Poisonshady313]

to paraphrase reeder,

"grr. You make it hard to argue."

oh wait, that's not a paraphrase, that's a quote.

:)

[noelle12]

And that will be because the Jews pretty much all recognize him as the Messiah?

(I say pretty much because, let's face it, you can't get everybody to agree on anything.)

I'd like to echo RayMan's question. How obvious do you think it will be when the Messiah does come? Will it be necessary to accept him on faith?

[Poisonshady313]

I'd like to echo RayMan's question. How obvious do you think it will be when the Messiah does come? Will it be necessary to accept him on faith?

It will be tremendously obvious.

Peace on earth... hard to miss that one.

Entire world's population of Jews living in Israel... something you'd notice.

Temple rebuilt in Jerusalem...

The Messiah will be the guy sitting on the throne, judging between the nations.

Kind of like Moses in Egypt... if you were there, it was kinda hard to miss him... the guy whose staff turned into a snake, and who parted the sea.

[noelle12]

It will be tremendously obvious.

Peace on earth... hard to miss that one.

Entire world's population of Jews living in Israel... something you'd notice.

Temple rebuilt in Jerusalem...

The Messiah will be the guy sitting on the throne, judging between the nations.

Kind of like Moses in Egypt... if you were there, it was kinda hard to miss him... the guy whose staff turned into a snake, and who parted the sea.

But what about before he succeeds in all these things. I imagine that it won't all occur instantaneously. Do you think that most people will just wait until he fulfills his mission before recognizing him as the Messiah? Even the Jews?

[Abe]

I say pretty much because, let's face it, you can't get everybody to agree on anything.:)):))When they're Jews?:)):))

[RayMan]

:)):))When they're Jews?:)):))

I didn't want to get personal...

[Poisonshady313]

But what about before he succeeds in all these things. I imagine that it won't all occur instantaneously. Do you think that most people will just wait until he fulfills his mission before recognizing him as the Messiah? Even the Jews?

The idea is, when any of those three happen, the others are sure to follow within a man's lifetime (namely, the Messiah's lifetime).

Then of course, there's the belief that when the Messiah is anointed, the whole world will hear a piercing sound, the blowing of a shofar (Ram's horn). I don't know if only the Jews will hear it, or everyone... but again... something that's kinda hard to notice.

It will be impossible to doubt him. You could be for him, or against him... and it won't turn out well for those who are against him (We expect him to be like King David in a number of ways, including being a warrior).

[RayMan]

CALLING ALL JEWS!

Can I get a little help please? I am taking a "World Religions" course this semester. Spent a couple weeks studying Judaism, was happy to see that most of what was taught was in harmony with what I have learned from the Jews here in the RF over the past year.

This week we are moving on to Zoroastrianism and are looking at what are some consider to be its contributions to both Judaism and Christianity. I would really appreciate whatever input any of you could give along these lines as concerns Jewish religious thought.

I am posting a few paragraphs from a website I found that lists a number of contributions to Jewish thought that are generally thought to have been added in through mixing with Zoroastrians during the Babylonian Captivity. Any input will be greatly appreciated. Yes, no, the guy is nuts, whatever. Thanks.

-------ZOROASTRIANISM, JUDAISM, AND CHRISTIANITY---------

Zoroastrianism, Judaism, and Christianity share so many features that it seems that there must be a connection between them. Does this connection really exist? If so, how did it happen? And how much of the similarity between these faiths is due simply to parallel evolution, rather than direct contact and influence?



------------Monotheism-----------------

There are some venturesome scholars who say that the Jewish idea of monotheism was inspired by contact with Zoroastrian monotheism. While it is true that Jewish monotheistic ideas did change after the Exile, I do not believe that it was Zoroastrian contact which inspired this change. Rather, it was the fact of the Exile itself. Jewish thinkers and prophets even before the Exile were hinting at a concept of One God who was greater than just an ethnic divinity. When the Captivity threw these thinkers into a foreign culture, away from their divinely appointed homeland, it was necessary to broaden their idea of God to a more universal and abstract deity, who could be worshipped with praise and moral actions rather than animal sacrifices and liturgies. The concept of a single God whom all nations would eventually worship evolved among a conquered and exiled people no longer assured of their divinely protected status.

-----------Heaven, Hell and afterlife-----------

There are other developments, however, in the Jewish faith which are much more easily connected with Zoroastrian ideas. One of the most visible changes after the Exile is the emergence of a Jewish idea of Heaven, Hell, and the afterlife. Before the Exile and Persian contact, Jews believed that the souls of the dead went to a dull, Hades-like place called "Sheol." After the Exile, the idea of a moralized afterlife, with heavenly rewards for the good and hellish punishment for the evil, appear in Judaism. One of the words for "heaven" in the Bible is Paradise - and this word, from the ancient Iranian words pairi-daeza, "enclosed garden," is one of the very few definite Persian loan-words in the Bible. This moral view of the afterlife is characteristic of Zarathushtrian teaching from its very beginning in the Gathas.

-------------------Messiah-------------------

It is also thought that the Jewish idea of a coming Savior, or Messiah, was influenced by Zoroastrian messianism. Already in the book of Second Isaiah, possibly written during the Exile, the prophet speaks of a Savior who would come to rescue the Jewish people: a benefactor, "anointed" by God to fulfill his role (the word "messiah" means "anointed one"). In many verses, he identifies Cyrus the liberator as that Messiah. The growth of messianic ideas is parallel in both Jewish and Iranian thought. Zarathushtra, in his Gathas, describes a saoshyant (savior) as anyone who is a benefactor of the people. Similarly in Jewish prophecy, the Messiah is not a single special Savior but anyone who does great things for the Jewish people - even if that person is a Persian King. But as both Persian and Jewish savior-mythology evolve, the Saoshyant - and the Messiah - take on a special, individual, almost divine quality which will be very important in the birth of Christianity.

----------------------Angelology----------------

The Iranian influence continues to be evident in Jewish writings from what is known as the "inter-testamental" period, that is, after the last canonical book of the Old Testament and before Christianity and the composition of the New Testament. This covers an era between about 150 BCE to 100 CE. These Jewish inter-testamental writings describe a complicated hierarchy of angelic beings, in an echo of the Zoroastrian concept of the holy court of the Yazatas. The Jewish idea of seven chief archangels probably has its inspiration in the seven Amesha Spentas, the highest guardian spirits of Zoroastrian belief. Jews had their own ideas of angels long before they encountered Zoroastrianism; angels were nameless, impersonal representatives of God's message and action. But after the Exile, Jewish angels gain names and personalities, and also are spoken of as guardians of various natural phenomena, just like the Zoroastrian yazatas. The Jewish and Christian idea of a personal "guardian angel" may also have been inspired by the Zoroastrian figure of the fravashi, the divine guardian-spirit of each individual human being.


http://www.sullivan-county.com/z/zor5.htm

[buflineks]

This week we are moving on to Zoroastrianism and are looking at what are some consider to be its contributions to both Judaism and Christianity. I would really appreciate whatever input any of you could give along these lines as concerns Jewish religious thought.


Although I'm not Jewish, I'll add my $.02.

I don't think that one can really say that Zoroastrianism influenced the Jewish Faith. I think that the assertions by some scholars that it occurs are ad hoc ergo propter hoc fallacies.

I also think that the Jewish posters here will concur with me on that.

As to the influence of Zoroastrianism on Christianity, I would say that the influence can be found more in the "heresies" of the bogomils, paulican, and manicheans. In particularly the "dualism" of those sects.

I am currently reading Christian Dualist Heresies in the Byzantine World: c 650-c 1405 by Janet and Bernard Hamilton. The influence of Zoroastrainsim figures prominately in this book. I know that you probably won't have time to read it, but if you want to explore this later, I think it will help you.

[RayMan]

Although I'm not Jewish, I'll add my $.02.

I don't think that one can really say that Zoroastrianism influenced the Jewish Faith. I think that the assertions by some scholars that it occurs are ad hoc ergo propter hoc fallacies.

I also think that the Jewish posters here will concur with me on that.

As to the influence of Zoroastrianism on Christianity, I would say that the influence can be found more in the "heresies" of the bogomils, paulican, and manicheans. In particularly the "dualism" of those sects.

I am currently reading Christian Dualist Heresies in the Byzantine World: c 650-c 1405 by Janet and Bernard Hamilton. The influence of Zoroastrainsim figures prominately in this book. I know that you probably won't have time to read it, but if you want to explore this later, I think it will help you.

Thanks!

[Harmonious]

Although I'm not Jewish, I'll add my $.02.

I don't think that one can really say that Zoroastrianism influenced the Jewish Faith. I think that the assertions by some scholars that it occurs are ad hoc ergo propter hoc fallacies.

I also think that the Jewish posters here will concur with me on that.

As to the influence of Zoroastrianism on Christianity, I would say that the influence can be found more in the "heresies" of the bogomils, paulican, and manicheans. In particularly the "dualism" of those sects.

I am currently reading Christian Dualist Heresies in the Byzantine World: c 650-c 1405 by Janet and Bernard Hamilton. The influence of Zoroastrainsim figures prominately in this book. I know that you probably won't have time to read it, but if you want to explore this later, I think it will help you.
Sound right to me.

:hug:

I haven't expressed enough love lately, Buf!

[buflineks]

Sound right to me.

:hug:

I haven't expressed enough love lately, Buf!

:hug:

right back at ya!

[CMike11]

Ray I feel the characterization of Judiasm is incorrect.

Jews were only into worshipping one G-D after the exile? I don't think so.

I also disagree with the way jews think about the after life.

The article description of the jewish messiah is really bad too.

Bottom line-- the article's portrayal of jewish thought and beliefs is very much wrong. In fact, it sucks.

I want to add how do people come up with this nonsense? Jewish beliefs are pretty uniform among jews. They are easily explained in a whole number of jewish web sites.

[RayMan]

Ray I feel the characterization of Judiasm is incorrect.

Jews were only into worshipping one G-D after the exile? I don't think so.

I also disagree with the way jews think about the after life.

The article description of the jewish messiah is really bad too.

Bottom line-- the article's portrayal of jewish thought and beliefs is very much wrong. In fact, it sucks.

I want to add how do people come up with this nonsense? Jewish beliefs are pretty uniform among jews. They are easily explained in a whole number of jewish web sites.

Thanks Mike. Just what I am after.

What do think about JewishEncyclopedia.com's take on the similarities between Judaism and Zoroastrianism on these teachings?

------------

Causes of Analogies Uncertain.

It is difficult to account for these analogies. It is known, of course, as a historic fact that the Jews and the Persians came in contact with each other at an early period in antiquity and remained in more or less close relation throughout their history (see Avesta; Media; Persia). Most scholars, Jewish as well as non-Jewish, are of the opinion that Judaism was strongly influenced by Zoroastrianism in views relating to angelology and demonology, and probably also in the doctrine of the resurrection, as well as in eschatological ideas in general, and also that the monotheistic conception of Yhwh may have been quickened and strengthened by being opposed to the dualism or quasi-monotheism of the Persians. But, on the other hand, the late James Darmesteter advocated exactly the opposite view, maintaining that early Persian thought was strongly influenced by Jewish ideas. He insisted that the Avesta, as we have it, is of late origin and is much tinctured by foreign elements, especially those derived from Judaism, and also those taken from Neoplatonism through the writings of Philo Judæus. These views, put forward shortly before the French scholar's death in 1894, have been violently combated by specialists since that time, and can not be said to have met with decided favor on any side. At the present time it is impossible to settle the question; the truth lies probably somewhere between the radical extremes...

http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=147&letter=Z&search=zoroaster

[Jacob_Rising]

CALLING ALL JEWS!

Can I get a little help please? I am taking a "World Religions" course this semester. Spent a couple weeks studying Judaism, was happy to see that most of what was taught was in harmony with what I have learned from the Jews here in the RF over the past year.

This week we are moving on to Zoroastrianism and are looking at what are some consider to be its contributions to both Judaism and Christianity. I would really appreciate whatever input any of you could give along these lines as concerns Jewish religious thought.

I am posting a few paragraphs from a website I found that lists a number of contributions to Jewish thought that are generally thought to have been added in through mixing with Zoroastrians during the Babylonian Captivity. Any input will be greatly appreciated. Yes, no, the guy is nuts, whatever. Thanks.

-------ZOROASTRIANISM, JUDAISM, AND CHRISTIANITY---------

Zoroastrianism, Judaism, and Christianity share so many features that it seems that there must be a connection between them. Does this connection really exist? If so, how did it happen? And how much of the similarity between these faiths is due simply to parallel evolution, rather than direct contact and influence?



------------Monotheism-----------------

There are some venturesome scholars who say that the Jewish idea of monotheism was inspired by contact with Zoroastrian monotheism. While it is true that Jewish monotheistic ideas did change after the Exile, I do not believe that it was Zoroastrian contact which inspired this change. Rather, it was the fact of the Exile itself. Jewish thinkers and prophets even before the Exile were hinting at a concept of One God who was greater than just an ethnic divinity. When the Captivity threw these thinkers into a foreign culture, away from their divinely appointed homeland, it was necessary to broaden their idea of God to a more universal and abstract deity, who could be worshipped with praise and moral actions rather than animal sacrifices and liturgies. The concept of a single God whom all nations would eventually worship evolved among a conquered and exiled people no longer assured of their divinely protected status.

-----------Heaven, Hell and afterlife-----------

There are other developments, however, in the Jewish faith which are much more easily connected with Zoroastrian ideas. One of the most visible changes after the Exile is the emergence of a Jewish idea of Heaven, Hell, and the afterlife. Before the Exile and Persian contact, Jews believed that the souls of the dead went to a dull, Hades-like place called "Sheol." After the Exile, the idea of a moralized afterlife, with heavenly rewards for the good and hellish punishment for the evil, appear in Judaism. One of the words for "heaven" in the Bible is Paradise - and this word, from the ancient Iranian words pairi-daeza, "enclosed garden," is one of the very few definite Persian loan-words in the Bible. This moral view of the afterlife is characteristic of Zarathushtrian teaching from its very beginning in the Gathas.

-------------------Messiah-------------------

It is also thought that the Jewish idea of a coming Savior, or Messiah, was influenced by Zoroastrian messianism. Already in the book of Second Isaiah, possibly written during the Exile, the prophet speaks of a Savior who would come to rescue the Jewish people: a benefactor, "anointed" by God to fulfill his role (the word "messiah" means "anointed one"). In many verses, he identifies Cyrus the liberator as that Messiah. The growth of messianic ideas is parallel in both Jewish and Iranian thought. Zarathushtra, in his Gathas, describes a saoshyant (savior) as anyone who is a benefactor of the people. Similarly in Jewish prophecy, the Messiah is not a single special Savior but anyone who does great things for the Jewish people - even if that person is a Persian King. But as both Persian and Jewish savior-mythology evolve, the Saoshyant - and the Messiah - take on a special, individual, almost divine quality which will be very important in the birth of Christianity.

----------------------Angelology----------------

The Iranian influence continues to be evident in Jewish writings from what is known as the "inter-testamental" period, that is, after the last canonical book of the Old Testament and before Christianity and the composition of the New Testament. This covers an era between about 150 BCE to 100 CE. These Jewish inter-testamental writings describe a complicated hierarchy of angelic beings, in an echo of the Zoroastrian concept of the holy court of the Yazatas. The Jewish idea of seven chief archangels probably has its inspiration in the seven Amesha Spentas, the highest guardian spirits of Zoroastrian belief. Jews had their own ideas of angels long before they encountered Zoroastrianism; angels were nameless, impersonal representatives of God's message and action. But after the Exile, Jewish angels gain names and personalities, and also are spoken of as guardians of various natural phenomena, just like the Zoroastrian yazatas. The Jewish and Christian idea of a personal "guardian angel" may also have been inspired by the Zoroastrian figure of the fravashi, the divine guardian-spirit of each individual human being.


http://www.sullivan-county.com/z/zor5.htmBefore there was a temple built in Jerusalem, there was a temple built in Egypt with the same concepts and order of priests. An entire city was built in the design of the temple in Egypt that had a Holy place and a Holy of Holies where once a year an Egyptian Priest would enter to atone for the sins of the people.

It's not hard to figure out how all these different religions had the same concepts when looking at the common histories shared between all religions.

There are over 700 names for Noah with the same story of a flood, and many of these stories are almost word for word about one man and his family escaping a global flood.

This story is found in the Mayan culture on the 12th page of the Mayan codex. It can be found everywhere all over the world just as it is found in Egypt every year when the boat of Osirus is carried through the streets.

What this proves is that you can trace all mankind back to a small region because they all have the same common stories even though they are thousands of miles apart.

Egyptian, Zorastorism, Mithraism, and the like have certain truths that are common among the truths of the bible because they can all be traced back to the same family.

Noah's grandson Nimrod is the founder of the majority of these religions in question.

Zoaster, Mithra, Horus, ect are Nimrod, They all share common holy days and common birthdays.

Nimrod had to have known certain truths handed down from Noah, handed down from Adam who spoke with God.

So it would be very believable that religions would share common truths.

[CMike11]

The only think I know about Zoro is that he wielded a mean blade. Other than that I know little of it.

Judaism wasn't influenced by any other religion in its beliefs and principles. It was given by G-D, starting with Abraham.

G-D said, Abraham did.

[buflineks]

Egyptian, Zorastorism, Mithraism, and the like have certain truths that are common among the truths of the bible because they can all be traced back to the same family.

Noah's grandson Nimrod is the founder of the majority of these religions in question.

Zoaster, Mithra, Horus, ect are Nimrod, They all share common holy days and common birthdays.

Nimrod had to have known certain truths handed down from Noah, handed down from Adam who spoke with God.

So it would be very believable that religions would share common truths.

Similis hoc ergo propter hoc fallacy.

[RayMan]

Before there was a temple built in Jerusalem, there was a temple built in Egypt with the same concepts and order of priests. An entire city was built in the design of the temple in Egypt that had a Holy place and a Holy of Holies where once a year an Egyptian Priest would enter to atone for the sins of the people.

It's not hard to figure out how all these different religions had the same concepts when looking at the common histories shared between all religions.

There are over 700 names for Noah with the same story of a flood, and many of these stories are almost word for word about one man and his family escaping a global flood.

This story is found in the Mayan culture on the 12th page of the Mayan codex. It can be found everywhere all over the world just as it is found in Egypt every year when the boat of Osirus is carried through the streets.

What this proves is that you can trace all mankind back to a small region because they all have the same common stories even though they are thousands of miles apart.

Egyptian, Zorastorism, Mithraism, and the like have certain truths that are common among the truths of the bible because they can all be traced back to the same family.

Noah's grandson Nimrod is the founder of the majority of these religions in question.

Zoaster, Mithra, Horus, ect are Nimrod, They all share common holy days and common birthdays.

Nimrod had to have known certain truths handed down from Noah, handed down from Adam who spoke with God.

So it would be very believable that religions would share common truths.

Thanks Jacob. I will look into the Nimrod angle. Hadn't crossed my mind until you brought it up.

[Jacob_Rising]

Similis hoc ergo propter hoc fallacy.Dude, I don't know why your always talking in a language I don't understand.

[RayMan]

Dude, I don't know why your always talking in a language I don't understand.

Don't worry. Buf doesn't understand Latin either. I believe what the phrase he wanted was:

Post Hoc Ergo Propter Hoc

A Post Hoc is a fallacy with the following form:

A occurs before B.
Therefore A is the cause of B.

The Post Hoc fallacy derives its name from the Latin phrase "Post hoc, ergo propter hoc." This has been traditionally interpreted as "After this, therefore because of this." This fallacy is committed when it is concluded that one event causes another simply because the proposed cause occurred before the proposed effect. More formally, the fallacy involves concluding that A causes or caused B because A occurs before B and there is not sufficient evidence to actually warrant such a claim.

[buflineks]

Dude, I don't know why your always talking in a language I don't understand.

"Similar to, therefore because of", a modification of the Post hoc ergo propter hoc fallacy.

There is no concrete evidence for what you have linked other than speculation based upon similarities.

This is just like the "history" created by the German Nationalists in the late 19th Century. It is a very common fallacy.

This is not sound historical research.

[buflineks]

Don't worry. Buf doesn't understand Latin either. I believe what the phrase he wanted was:

Post Hoc Ergo Propter Hoc

A Post Hoc is a fallacy with the following form:

A occurs before B.
Therefore A is the cause of B.

The Post Hoc fallacy derives its name from the Latin phrase "Post hoc, ergo propter hoc." This has been traditionally interpreted as "After this, therefore because of this." This fallacy is committed when it is concluded that one event causes another simply because the proposed cause occurred before the proposed effect. More formally, the fallacy involves concluding that A causes or caused B because A occurs before B and there is not sufficient evidence to actually warrant such a claim.

No, I knew exactly what I was saying.;)

[RayMan]

"Similar to, therefore because of", a modification of the Post hoc ergo propter hoc fallacy.

There is no concrete evidence for what you have linked other than speculation based upon similarities.

This is just like the "history" created by the German Nationalists in the late 19th Century. It is a very common fallacy.

This is not sound historical research.

A modification...Ok, I will accept that. :angel:

[Jacob_Rising]

"Similar to, therefore because of", a modification of the Post hoc ergo propter hoc fallacy.

There is no concrete evidence for what you have linked other than speculation based upon similarities.

This is just like the "history" created by the German Nationalists in the late 19th Century. It is a very common fallacy.

This is not sound historical research.That still doesn't tell me what you mean, you just put something up there that I don't understand and addressed my whole post with it.

It could be that I'm wrong with my thinking how these other religions knew something before Christianity knew it.

If I am wrong with my post, it only means that Christianity is a knock off of Mithraism and Zorasterism because these religions existed way before Christianity.

So then Christianity must be false.

Unless you can explain why there are so many common truths copied by Christianity from Zorasterism and Mithraism.

Why did they have a virgin birth God child? why were they born on the winter solstice?

The comparisons go on and on, so why does Christianity copy Mithra?

You tell me why if I'm wrong, tell me why Zorasterism looks just like Christianity.

[Marleysdaddy]

This handy site has a taxonomy of fallacies that is mostly complete

http://www.fallacyfiles.org/taxonomy.html

[RayMan]

No, I knew exactly what I was saying.;)

Don't rub it in. :silenced:

[buflineks]

You tell me why if I'm wrong, tell me why Zorasterism looks just like Christianity.

No it doesn't. The entire basis of the two religions are seperate.

They may have "similar" themes, but to say that one came from the other is not based upon any fact.

Christianity was an adaptive religion. In the gaining of Converts they would often show the pagans things in Christianity that would aid in the converison of the pagans. Similarities, but then express the "truth" of their religion.

There is NO connection of the two religions. Zorasterism was a "dualist" faith. It lead to influences on the manicheans and later the paulicans, Bogomils, etc.

Hislop is one of the reasons for this "they are similar" fallacy. But there is no concrete evidence that Judiaism or Christianity came out of Zorasterism.

We know by Historical Fact, that Christianity emerged from Judeaism. Christianity was a schismatic sect of Judeaism.

But there is no concrete facts that Judeaism came from Zorasterism.

[Jacob_Rising]

No it doesn't. The entire basis of the two religions are seperate.

They may have "similar" themes, but to say that one came from the other is not based upon any fact.

Christianity was an adaptive religion. In the gaining of Converts they would often show the pagans things in Christianity that would aid in the converison of the pagans. Similarities, but then express the "truth" of their religion.

There is NO connection of the two religions. Zorasterism was a "dualist" faith. It lead to influences on the manicheans and later the paulicans, Bogomils, etc.

Hislop is one of the reasons for this "they are similar" fallacy. But there is no concrete evidence that Judiaism or Christianity came out of Zorasterism.

We know by Historical Fact, that Christianity emerged from Judeaism. Christianity was a schismatic sect of Judeaism.

But there is no concrete facts that Judeaism came from Zorasterism.So you say Buff but there are many books out showing the common threads of Christianity, threads not found in Judaism.

Mithaism and Zorasterism have long lists of traditions and beliefs that are later found in Christianity that have no ties to Judaism.

[buflineks]

So you say Buff but there are many books out showing the common threads of Christianity, threads not found in Judaism.

Mithaism and Zorasterism have long lists of traditions and beliefs that are later found in Christianity that have no ties to Judaism.

like what?

Christmas?

[buflineks]

Jacob,

There are many historians ( Bennet and Tierney come to mind) who assert that Manicheanism did come from Zorasterism, but that it was not a "christian" based relgion. Their arguements further state that although those religions talked about gods who were dead and reborn, these come more out of old fertility godess legends ( winter dies and the reborn in spring).

Their arguements go on further with the basic fact that the chrisitans could claim a more immediate and concrete origion for their religion. (Christ was an actual historical figure) whereas the proof Mirthraism and Zorasterism were based in a more "mythological" presentation.

The stoics and the neo-plantonist found the "new"religion also appealing because of it's monotheism. Though they did not come to it as the Jews had with the revelation of God throughout history ( philosophy vs. history).

Mithra conqued the sun (sol invictus). God did not "conqure" Christ.

Again, what you have are similarities when you say that there are threads of belief found in Christianity that are not found in Judeaism. Probably due to the fact that Jews do not recognize Christ. However, the "Scriptures" that the early christians and the apostles refered to were the OT.

If, as you assert, that Christianity came from Mithraism and Zorasterism, then why are there no historical references to writtings of those religions? The were in extant at that time. Why were those writtings not included in the christian writtings that late came to include the NT?

See this is where the whole conspiracy theory breaks down. The only reference to inflluence in Christianity comes from Judeaism. It is from that the Christians claim their authority of their monothiestic God, not from Mithre et al.

[Devorah :)]

Interesting discussion about Christianity and pagan influences. You know, when Constantine made Christianity legal and also the state religion, he pronounced all the formerly pagan priests 'christians'. Those priests and their followers brought in parts of their former religions into Christianity to make it more 'fun and interesting', and that is how the "Holy" Roman Catholic Church ended up with all sorts of unbiblical rituals. It is fitting that they call themselves "roman". Now, the Romans had actually borrowed certain religious ideas from previous cultures too, making this really more than just roman paganism mixed in with Christianity. Let me tell you the history of Easter, for instance. It came from the old Babylonian tradition of the Mother goddess (of nature and fertility) and her son (or in some versions lover), the sun god Tammuz. One day tammuz was out hunting and got killed by a wild boar. His mother, Ishtar, went down to the underworld to plead that he be let free. The god of the underworld relented and let them go, but on the promise that the next year they must return, and so on. Fall and winter symbolized the time when they were in the underworld and spring was celebrated as their return. Thus the celebration of Easter (from the word Ishtar), which always is at the time of the spring equinox. Ham is traditionally eaten (in memorial of the boar that killed Tammuz), and eggs and bunnies are popular (because they were symbols of the fertility goddes, Ishtar). And Lent, the time preceding Easter, comes from the period of weeping for Tammuz.
Variations of the Ishtar and Tammuz story could be found in numerous cultures. In Caanan they were known as Asherah and Baal, and in Egypt as Isis and Horus. Maddona and child statues have been found that date way before Jesus and Mary. When paganism invaded the Church, Mary and Jesus just simply took the place of the Mother goddess and her son in the minds of many. The celebration of Christmas too, is pagan. The birthday of Jesus is unknown, and so the reason that the 25th was picked to celebrate it is because that was Tammuz's birthday. Easter and Christmas are nothing but pagan holidays that have been "Christianized" over time. The church needs to purge the evil that has become mixed in, but the sad thing is that they don't even know there's a problem. (sorry if I just offended lots of people) :)

[Jacob_Rising]

Interesting discussion about Christianity and pagan influences. You know, when Constantine made Christianity legal and also the state religion, he pronounced all the formerly pagan priests 'christians'. Those priests and their followers brought in parts of their former religions into Christianity to make it more 'fun and interesting', and that is how the "Holy" Roman Catholic Church ended up with all sorts of unbiblical rituals. It is fitting that they call themselves "roman". Now, the Romans had actually borrowed certain religious ideas from previous cultures too, making this really more than just roman paganism mixed in with Christianity. Let me tell you the history of Easter, for instance. It came from the old Babylonian tradition of the Mother goddess (of nature and fertility) and her son (or in some versions lover), the sun god Tammuz. One day tammuz was out hunting and got killed by a wild boar. His mother, Ishtar, went down to the underworld to plead that he be let free. The god of the underworld relented and let them go, but on the promise that the next year they must return, and so on. Fall and winter symbolized the time when they were in the underworld and spring was celebrated as their return. Thus the celebration of Easter (from the word Ishtar), which always is at the time of the spring equinox. Ham is traditionally eaten (in memorial of the boar that killed Tammuz), and eggs and bunnies are popular (because they were symbols of the fertility goddes, Ishtar). And Lent, the time preceding Easter, comes from the period of weeping for Tammuz.
Variations of the Ishtar and Tammuz story could be found in numerous cultures. In Caanan they were known as Asherah and Baal, and in Egypt as Isis and Horus. Maddona and child statues have been found that date way before Jesus and Mary. When paganism invaded the Church, Mary and Jesus just simply took the place of the Mother goddess and her son in the minds of many. The celebration of Christmas too, is pagan. The birthday of Jesus is unknown, and so the reason that the 25th was picked to celebrate it is because that was Tammuz's birthday. Easter and Christmas are nothing but pagan holidays that have been "Christianized" over time. The church needs to purge the evil that has become mixed in, but the sad thing is that they don't even know there's a problem. (sorry if I just offended lots of people) :)+ 1.

You can rationalize why christianity has so many common threads with Mithraism and zorasterism but the truth had allready been admitted, it was changed to convert Pagans, or you could look at it as Christians taking on the customs of the gentile nations.

Yeshuah has a set of Holy days and he was born on the Feast of Tabernacles, Paul tells us to celebrate the Pesach.

There are many excuses why the Holy days and traditions of the Messiah have changed.

There are many people who point their finger and say,'' Look ,you stole christianity from the ancient Pagans''

My reply is that Jesus has nothing to do with cultures of other God's.

He is the Pesach, the shavuot, The Sukkot.

People say he is the easter, the christmas Baby, and other things but I believe his Holy days are written down in Lev.

Everything else is an excuse in my opinion.

[buflineks]

. You know, when Constantine made Christianity legal and also the state religion, he pronounced all the formerly pagan priests 'christians'.

Wrong.

Constantine did not make Christianity "the state religion".

Try Theodosius.

[buflineks]

. . Thus the celebration of Easter (from the word Ishtar), which always is at the time of the spring equinox.

Wrong.

Refer to Venerable Bede's Historia Ecclesiastica gentis Anglorum.

Hislop has been thoroughly refuted.

addum. As to your "christmas date" assertion, that is wrong also. Try feast of Sol Invictus. Hislop didn't know what he was talking about.

[buflineks]

I've taken this thread off track.

Sorry.

I'm done. No more Christianity stuff.

[RayMan]

I've taken this thread off track.

Sorry.

I'm done. No more Christianity stuff.

No worries buf. Your input has been helpful. When I do my writing assignment I want to address the supposition that both Christianity and Judaism borrowed from Zoroastrianism.

You have been a great help hermano.

[Harmonious]

My reply is that Jesus has nothing to do with cultures of other God's.

He is the Pesach, the shavuot, The Sukkot.

Jacob, Jesus is none of those things. He might have celebrated them during his lifetime, but he IS none of them.

Jews have celebrated these holidays long before Jesus was born, and we celebrate them since he is long gone. Jesus has nothing to do with Pesach, Shavuot, or Sukkot, except in your imagination.

[Harmonious]

No worries buf. Your input has been helpful. When I do my writing assignment I want to address the supposition that both Christianity and Judaism borrowed from Zoroastrianism.

You have been a great help hermano.

By the way, I started reading the article. From what I see, the premise isn't working out. I will PM you later with more details, but that is the quick answer.

[RayMan]

By the way, I started reading the article. From what I see, the premise isn't working out. I will PM you later with more details, but that is the quick answer.

Thanks.

[Abe]

Thanks.Ray, I just came out of surgery so I'm still somewhat befuddled, (that's my story and I'm stickin' to it). I'll PM you later with my opinions. Stay well.

[RayMan]

Ray, I just came out of surgery so I'm still somewhat befuddled, (that's my story and I'm stickin' to it). I'll PM you later with my opinions. Stay well.

Thanks Abe and ditto on the stay well part.

[Abe]

Thanks Abe and ditto on the stay well part.:)

[Gidon]

My knowledge of modern Judaism is pretty limited. We studied it a little in 9th grade, and I have read most of the novels of Chaim Potok, but other than that, I don't know much. So I have a question for you.

I learned back in 9th grade about several different catagories of Judaism. I remember Orthodox, Conservative, and Reformed. What are the differences between these different groups? How did these groups come about? Are there other catagories also? Thank you.

I heard it like this once:

Orthodox say 'Adonoy'

Conservatives say 'Adonay'

Reformed say 'Idunno'


:)

[Mimiheart]

I heard it like this once:

Orthodox say 'Adonoy'

Conservatives say 'Adonay'

Reformed say 'Idunno'


:)
:rolleyes:



And there's still no "ed" on the end of Reform.

[Marleysdaddy]

And there's still no "ed" on the end of Reform.
I'm not even Jewish and I knew that :D

[Mimiheart]

I'm not even Jewish and I knew that :DThe temple where I work is Reform, and I hear it there, and it makes me twitch.

[RayMan]

The temple where I work is Reform, and I hear it there, and it makes me twitch.

I will attending a Sabbath service at the local Reform Temple, Temple Beth Hillel, in a couple of weeks.

The Final for the "World Religions" course I am taking entails going to a religious service outside of your own tradition and then writing an essay about the service afterwards.

Looking forward to it. Emailed the Rabbi about visiting and he was very friendly and welcoming. Let me know I needn't worry about offending anyone with my goyish ways. He didn't use that term though. :mrgreen:

[Gidon]

:rolleyes:



And there's still no "ed" on the end of Reform.

I knew that. Sorry. I was multitasking.

[Mimiheart]

I will attending a Sabbath service at the local Reform Temple, Temple Beth Hillel, in a couple of weeks.

The Final for the "World Religions" course I am taking entails going to a religious service outside of your own tradition and then writing an essay about the service afterwards.

Looking forward to it. Emailed the Rabbi about visiting and he was very friendly and welcoming. Let me know I needn't worry about offending anyone with my goyish ways. He didn't use that term though. :mrgreen:Are you going to a Friday night service or a Saturday morning service? This weekend is Shabbat Shira--the Sabbath of Song. The Torah is read (mostly) in order and this week's portion is where the Israelites cross the Sea of Reeds (or Red Sea depending on your translation). Part of the portion looks really cool.

There's a few special Shabbats coming up. I'll be back in a bit, I can tell you about them when I get back.

[Marleysdaddy]

I will attending a Sabbath service at the local Reform Temple, Temple Beth Hillel, in a couple of weeks.


I went to a few Friday night services at a Reform Temple when I took Judaism - they were very cool - Hebrew is a beautiful language when spoken.

Have fun!

[RayMan]

I went to a few Friday night services at a Reform Temple when I took Judaism - they were very cool - Hebrew is a beautiful language when spoken.

Have fun!

I plan to, thanks.

[RayMan]

Are you going to a Friday night service or a Saturday morning service? This weekend is Shabbat Shira--the Sabbath of Song. The Torah is read (mostly) in order and this week's portion is where the Israelites cross the Sea of Reeds (or Red Sea depending on your translation). Part of the portion looks really cool.

There's a few special Shabbats coming up. I'll be back in a bit, I can tell you about them when I get back.

Friday night. They only have service the First and Third Friday of each month. Now that you mention it, I remember that a Christian pastor friend of mine spent several months attending a Torah study service on Saturday mornings. He really enjoyed it.

I picked this particular Temple because all the Jewish kids I went to High School with attended there and I drove past it almost daily for 30 years until we moved a few miles away to where we live now. Somehow makes me feel more comfortable about visiting having known a number of folk who were members there.

[noelle12]

Another thread sparked my curiosity about the 613 commandments that Jews are supposed to obey. I came across one that surprised me. Can I ask a question about it. #106, according to my source states "Not to castrate the male of any species; neither a man, nor a domestic or wild beast, nor a fowl (Lev. 22:24) (CCN143)." Does that mean you don't neuter dogs?

[CaffeineHat]

Do jews believe that we (mankind) existed in any way prior to being born on earth?

Can you clarify "healing the world"?

Thank you for your answers.
In my experience as a conservative and "high" reform Jew (high reform indicates a stricter approach). Healing the earth means behaving in an ethical and thoughtful way respectful of the fact that we are basically visitors here. For example the laws of kashruth focus on limiting the number of species we are allowed to kill and eat, and how we kill the ones we do eat. The idea is that eating is a sacred act of sustenance, and when something gives its life to sustain us, we must be aware of that fact. It's considered unethical to "abuse the dumb beasts that we use" in anyway. It sounds touchy feely when I type it, but it helps keep me humble to realize that something had to die to sustain me. That is part of my interpretation of tikkun olam.

[CaffeineHat]

It will be tremendously obvious.

Peace on earth... hard to miss that one.

Entire world's population of Jews living in Israel... something you'd notice.

Temple rebuilt in Jerusalem...

The Messiah will be the guy sitting on the throne, judging between the nations.

Kind of like Moses in Egypt... if you were there, it was kinda hard to miss him... the guy whose staff turned into a snake, and who parted the sea.
I know this is from a few pages back and I apologize for it. When I was in college I studied with a Rabbi who had an older interpretation of the coming of the messianic age. Along with all Jews worshipping together, there was a passage about four shabbats in a row, and about men gathering to dance in the streets before prayers. He was an older Rabbi and so, if you attended 4 sabbaths in a row for services, he would meet you on the steps of the syanagogue and dance with you. At one point, the Friday nights on the street in this small college town were so crowded that the police would put up barricades so the Jews could dance before services. It remains one of my fondest memories of that Rabbi and of that time in my life. I am reform, but there are moments when I dance like I'm orthodox.

[Mimiheart]

Another thread sparked my curiosity about the 613 commandments that Jews are supposed to obey. I came across one that surprised me. Can I ask a question about it. #106, according to my source states "Not to castrate the male of any species; neither a man, nor a domestic or wild beast, nor a fowl (Lev. 22:24) (CCN143)." Does that mean you don't neuter dogs?http://www.jewfaq.org/animals.htm

Pretty much.


It is a violation of Jewish law (http://www.jewfaq.org/defs/law.htm) to neuter a pet. The Torah (http://www.jewfaq.org/defs/torah.htm) prohibits castrating males of any species (Lev. 22:24). Although this law does not apply to neutering female pets, neutering of females is prohibited by general laws against tza'ar ba'alei chayim (causing suffering to animals). Please note that, while the law prohibits you from neutering your pet, it does not prohibit you from owning a pet that is already neutered. If you want a neutered pet, I strongly encourage you to adopt from one of the many reputable shelters, such as Spay and Save (http://www.spayandsave.org/) (where I adopted one of my cats), Kitty Cottage (http://www.kittycottage.org/) or the Delaware Humane Association (http://www.dehumane.org/). I also heard a amusing story about an Orthodox Jewish woman who gave her unaltered female cat birth control pills, but I don't know how much truth there is to that story. It certainly would not be a violation of Jewish law to do so.

[CMike11]

Another thread sparked my curiosity about the 613 commandments that Jews are supposed to obey. I came across one that surprised me. Can I ask a question about it. #106, according to my source states "Not to castrate the male of any species; neither a man, nor a domestic or wild beast, nor a fowl (Lev. 22:24) (CCN143)." Does that mean you don't neuter dogs?

That is the role of jewish wives :))

[noelle12]

That is the role of jewish wives :))

Well, somebody's got to do it!

[Harmonious]

I know this is from a few pages back and I apologize for it. When I was in college I studied with a Rabbi who had an older interpretation of the coming of the messianic age. Along with all Jews worshipping together, there was a passage about four shabbats in a row, and about men gathering to dance in the streets before prayers. He was an older Rabbi and so, if you attended 4 sabbaths in a row for services, he would meet you on the steps of the syanagogue and dance with you. At one point, the Friday nights on the street in this small college town were so crowded that the police would put up barricades so the Jews could dance before services. It remains one of my fondest memories of that Rabbi and of that time in my life. I am reform, but there are moments when I dance like I'm orthodox.I don't know about the Rabbi you learned from, but actually, the thing is if ALL Jews (who know that they are Jews) kept TWO Shabbatot in a row the way we are supposed to, then Messiah would come immediately thereafter.

[CaffeineHat]

I don't know about the Rabbi you learned from, but actually, the thing is if ALL Jews (who know that they are Jews) kept TWO Shabbatot in a row the way we are supposed to, then Messiah would come immediately thereafter.

Yes, he said two and then said that the orthodox and ultras would double that just to be safe. Whatever the case, it was fun to hora in the streets of Champaign Illinois.

[Harmonious]

Yes, he said two and then said that the orthodox and ultras would double that just to be safe. Whatever the case, it was fun to hora in the streets of Champaign Illinois.
:))

To be fair, the Orthodox ALREADY keep Shabbat the way we're supposed to, more or less. There is always room for improvement, but I can promise you that I've kept far more than TWO or even FOUR Shabbatot in the way commanded by God.

[Spock]

:))

To be fair, the Orthodox ALREADY keep Shabbat the way we're supposed to, more or less. There is always room for improvement, but I can promise you that I've kept far more than TWO or even FOUR Shabbatot in the way commanded by God.

Todah rabah!

[Harmonious]

Todah rabah!Bevakasha. :mrgreen:

[Jacob_Rising]

I don't know about the Rabbi you learned from, but actually, the thing is if ALL Jews (who know that they are Jews) .What about the Jews that don't know they are Jews?

According to Jewish reckoning, If I had a great, great, great grandfather and grandmother who was Jewish Then I am Jewish, no matter if they all married gentiles 4 generations before me.

I'm still Jewish.

Maybe I'll go look up my ancestors and see if I have a Jew in there somewhere that would make me Jewish.

[Harmonious]

What about the Jews that don't know they are Jews?

According to Jewish reckoning, If I had a great, great, great grandfather and grandmother who was Jewish Then I am Jewish, no matter if they all married gentiles 4 generations before me.

I'm still Jewish.

Maybe I'll go look up my ancestors and see if I have a Jew in there somewhere that would make me Jewish.
If your great, great, great grandmother was Jewish, and her daughter your great, great grandmother was Jewish, and her daughter your great grandmother was Jewish, and her daughter your grandmother was Jewish, and her daughter your mother was Jewish, then you are Jewish. No matter who they married.

Even so...

No other specified link necessarily will work.

[noelle12]

In the 613 laws that Jewish people follow, are there any regarding the use of tobacco, specifically smoking cigarettes?

[Harmonious]

In the 613 laws that Jewish people follow, are there any regarding the use of tobacco, specifically smoking cigarettes?Interesting question, that.

In short, no, not specifically.

Before the dangers of cigarette smoking were known to the world at large, it was determined that on Shabbat, it was forbidden absolutely, as all fires are forbidden to be lit or extinguished by Jews on Shabbat. On holidays, however, it was determined that they can be lit from pre-existing flames, as fire can be used on Biblical holidays.

In practice, however, as more was learned about smoking, and the dangers it can cause (like with cancer, emphysema, and other health issues), Rabbinical decrees have been made as more has been learned about them. I believe that in the 1980s, Reb Moshe Feinstein gave a ruling that it was forbidden to start smoking, as it is hazardous for the health, but if a person had already started, it wasn't forbidden to continue, as it doesn't make sense to make decrees that people aren't going to follow anyway.

Since then, more Rabbis are of the opinion that smoking is forbidden, because it is a danger to the life of the smoker and the people around them. Other Jews rely on older opinions, because they prefer to keep doing what they've been doing.

With all things considered, I have asthma (even though it hasn't reared its ugly head in years), and my mother and maternal grandmother died of lung cancer. I will not willingly put that poison into my body.

But would I say that it is forbidden like pork is forbidden? No. God did not decree that it was forbidden. I would say that common sense and preserving life and limb would be reason enough to stay away from smoking, and we ARE commanded to save lives, first and foremost, our own.

[noelle12]

Interesting question, that.

In short, no, not specifically.

Before the dangers of cigarette smoking were known to the world at large, it was determined that on Shabbat, it was forbidden absolutely, as all fires are forbidden to be lit or extinguished by Jews on Shabbat. On holidays, however, it was determined that they can be lit from pre-existing flames, as fire can be used on Biblical holidays.

In practice, however, as more was learned about smoking, and the dangers it can cause (like with cancer, emphysema, and other health issues), Rabbinical decrees have been made as more has been learned about them. I believe that in the 1980s, Reb Moshe Feinstein gave a ruling that it was forbidden to start smoking, as it is hazardous for the health, but if a person had already started, it wasn't forbidden to continue, as it doesn't make sense to make decrees that people aren't going to follow anyway.

Since then, more Rabbis are of the opinion that smoking is forbidden, because it is a danger to the life of the smoker and the people around them. Other Jews rely on older opinions, because they prefer to keep doing what they've been doing.

With all things considered, I have asthma (even though it hasn't reared its ugly head in years), and my mother and maternal grandmother died of lung cancer. I will not willingly put that poison into my body.

But would I say that it is forbidden like pork is forbidden? No. God did not decree that it was forbidden. I would say that common sense and preserving life and limb would be reason enough to stay away from smoking, and we ARE commanded to save lives, first and foremost, our own.

Thanks Harmonious. I can always count on you for a thorough and thoughtful explanation to any of my questions.

I don't smoke, so my next question is based on what I've heard, and I suppose as a non-smoker yourself, you may not be able to answer, but here goes anyway.

Most smokers indicate that they are addicted to smoking. It makes me wonder how they can "quit" smoking for one day (shabbat)?

[Harmonious]

Thanks Harmonious. I can always count on you for a thorough and thoughtful explanation to any of my questions.

I don't smoke, so my next question is based on what I've heard, and I suppose as a non-smoker yourself, you may not be able to answer, but here goes anyway.

Most smokers indicate that they are addicted to smoking. It makes me wonder how they can "quit" smoking for one day (shabbat)?
The selective self-discipline people have is amazing. I don't know how it can be done, but they do it.

They have the discipline to withhold from smoking for a day, but not to stop permanently. It is weird, but I've seen it happen.

What is more insane is when people addicted to caffeine prepare for a fast like Yom Kippur. They try hard to wean themselves away for a few days before the fast day, and then go back to it when the fast is over. That is interesting to watch, and hear discussed.

[Abe]

Thanks Harmonious. I can always count on you for a thorough and thoughtful explanation to any of my questions.

I don't smoke, so my next question is based on what I've heard, and I suppose as a non-smoker yourself, you may not be able to answer, but here goes anyway.

Most smokers indicate that they are addicted to smoking. It makes me wonder how they can "quit" smoking for one day (shabbat)?In the IDF we had many smokers. The religious smokers had no trouble quiting for Shabbat and restarting Saturday evening, when Shabbat ended. We, (the secular guys), would sometimes torment them by smoking in front of them, but they wouldn't "Yield to Temptation", (sorry, Christian Honoured Guests, I couldn't help it :) ).

[Harmonious]

In the IDF we had many smokers. The religious smokers had no trouble quiting for Shabbat and restarting Saturday evening, when Shabbat ended. We, (the secular guys), would sometimes torment them by smoking in front of them, but they wouldn't "Yield to Temptation", (sorry, Christian Honoured Guests, I couldn't help it :) ).

Abe, that's horrible! I'm glad they didn't yield, though.

[Abe]

Abe, that's horrible! I'm glad they didn't yield, though.They'd just grin. What's life worth if you can't torment a fellow soldier every now and then? :angel:

[Harmonious]

They'd just grin. What's life worth if you can't torment a fellow soldier every now and then? :angel:
*shakes head*

When I was in Israel, I did learn one thing about IDF soldiers... You would be hard-pressed to find one who doesn't have a sense of humor.