Ask a Mormon

[justamere10]

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Ask a Mormon


In this thread you are invited to interact with justamere10, an active well-informed Mormon, and other Mormons. You are invited to ask any questions you may have about the religious beliefs and practices of the Mormons.

Other of my LDS friends may disagree, but it is my personal belief that a huge amount of misinformation about what Mormons believe is in circulation. It is my contention that behind that misinformation is a lucrative anti-Mormon publishing industry. That industry includes publishers, writers, creators of media, and sellers/distributors of books, pamphlets, DVD's etc. that contradict, belittle, or misrepresent Mormon beliefs.

Distributors of information from that industry, I believe, include some paid ministers of religion whose income, authority, and status is threatened when members of their flock switch to another denomination. Within some denominations members of the Church of JESUS CHRIST have even been accused of not being Christians! Apparently some scholars and leaders have created and preached an unbiblical definition of "Christianity" that tends to exclude the Mormons from Christian fellowship.

It is my hope to help dispel some of that misunderstanding and consequent enmity and division among fellow followers of Jesus Christ. I believe that we are in a dangerous time when all Christians in America face a common enemy. The enemy is the secular progressive agenda to do away with Christian values in America, and terrorists who maim and kill in the name of god and religion. I believe it essential that ALL followers of Jesus Christ unite against that foe. Hopefully this thread will lead to a better understanding of what it is the Mormons really believe, and thus eventually a better union in a common cause.

In this thread I will refer to members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, a 13,000,000 member fast-growing worldwide church headquartered in Salt Lake City, Utah as "Mormons", "Latter-day Saints", "LDS", or "Saints".

I believe that one way for Mormons such as myself to get the truth out about our religious beliefs is to speak up in non-LDS venues such as this discussion board. I am aware that LDS beliefs are often emotionally put down by people and groups who have been exposed only to untrue teachings about the Mormons. Thus a high level of moderation in discussions about the Mormons is required, and hopefully will be evident in this thread as it was in my earlier thread titled: "If Catholics are wrong, are Protestants too?"

http://forums.hannity.com/showthread.php?t=643801 (http://forums.hannity.com/showthread.php?t=643801)


I cannot speak for the LDS Church and I don't claim to know everything there is to know about the Mormons. But I will always write the truth as I understand it. Other Latter-day Saints may wish to add their own points of view or expand on what I write, I hope they do. I believe that I can quite accurately represent the beliefs of many active mainstream Mormons.

In this thread I and other Latter-day Saints WILL refer to the entire canon of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints to help others better understand our beliefs.

It is acceptable to contrast LDS beliefs with yours, and to expound on the meaning of scripture. I expect a lively discussion in which posters of all denominations actively but respectfully defend the things they believe to be true. It is not my intention to try to convert anyone, but we do have a few vacancies if anyone becomes interested. :-) It may take you a year or two to make bishop though...

I have been a faithful member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints for 40 years, having converted from Roman Catholicism at age 22. I have been in thousands of LDS meetings of all kinds, attended temples in many countries, served a foreign mission, listened to other Mormons talk, rubbed shoulders with Mormons, live among Mormons, watch what they do, met Mormon prophets, apostles and general authorities, read books, studied scriptures, and been a lay minister and Melchizedek Priesthood holder for decades.


I KNOW the Mormons!

If they were not of God, I would not be one of them...



You are invited to

ASK A MORMON


Official LDS Websites


The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (http://www.lds.org/) - Official site of the Church
Mormon.org (http://www.mormon.org/) - Basic beliefs of the Mormon faith
LDS Newsroom (http://newsroom.lds.org/) - The official resource for News Media, Opinion Leaders, and the Public.
The Scriptures (http://scriptures.lds.org/) - The Book of Mormon, Bible (KJV), Doctrine and Covenants, and Pearl of Great Price
Jesus Christ (http://jesuschrist.lds.org/) - Jesus Christ, The Son of God
Joseph Smith (http://www.josephsmith.net/) - Life and mission of the Prophet Joseph
Family Search (http://www.familysearch.org/) - Family History and Genealogy Records
Mormon Temples (http://www.lds.org/temples/) - The House of the Lord
Provident Living (http://www.providentliving.org/) - Self-reliance and welfare resources
Disability Resources (http://disability.lds.org/) - Church website for persons with disabilities and their families
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[justamere10]

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I cannot of course control what is written in this thread. But it is my hope that it will remain on-topic as a place for interested persons to inquire and learn what Mormons really believe. (And of course to continue the discussion about cornbread that was begun in the earlier thread. ;-) It is my belief that it is much more valid to ask the Mormons what Mormons believe, the Baptists what Baptists believe, Catholics what they believe etc. Here you get to ask the Mormons.

As those of you who participated in the earlier thread know, I am not a scholar nor a historian. Questions that are very heavy into what is being taught about the Mormons by extreme non-LDS sources (you know, the kind that teach Mormons have horns and show photos of "mormon underwear") may be best directed to an "apologetic" website such as the one below.

http://www.ldsfair.org (mhtml:{09272DBB-5804-4926-A7B0-C39813AD4444}mid://00000287/!x-usc:http://www.ldsfair.org/)


An official LDS website for those who want to anonymously learn online about LDS beliefs is at:

http://www.mormon.org (mhtml:{09272DBB-5804-4926-A7B0-C39813AD4444}mid://00000287/!x-usc:http://www.mormon.org/)


Here's an official LDS website about what Mormons testify of Jesus Christ:

http://jesuschrist.lds.org/SonOfGod/eng/ (mhtml:{09272DBB-5804-4926-A7B0-C39813AD4444}mid://00000287/!x-usc:http://jesuschrist.lds.org/SonOfGod/eng/)


Joseph Smith, the founder of the LDS Church, is sometimes maligned by non-Mormons. At the link below you can read the truth about Joseph Smith, the man whom Mormons believe was chosen of God to be the Prophet of the prophesied Restoration/Restitution of all things. Then contrast what you read if you want to at non-LDS websites, they're easy to find. That way there's no chance that you might be deceived, because, as you may know, some people believe that the Mormons tell lies about what they believe to be true! (That's true, I've encountered it on other boards.)

http://www.josephsmith.net (mhtml:{09272DBB-5804-4926-A7B0-C39813AD4444}mid://00000231/!x-usc:http://www.josephsmith.net/)


I testify that Joseph Smith was a prophet of God and that the LIVING resurrected Jesus Christ stands at the head of his restored Church on earth today, with authorized Apostles and Prophets as its leaders, the same way it was originally organized.

God has not forgotten His children. He continues to speak to man individually by His Spirit, and He continues to speak to His servants the prophets, as He did anciently.

Those things I believe...


Go ahead, Ask a Mormon.


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[Reeder]

I got a question.....why would anyone name their kid "Shiz?" :D

[justamere10]

I got a question.....why would anyone name their kid "Shiz?" :D


I don't wish to offend you sir or madam, but did you? :-)


It's an inside joke folks.

Shiz was the name of the last survivor of a civil war among the "Jaredites" as recorded in the Book of Ether, one of the books that comprise the Book of Mormon. The Jaredites came to the Americas soon after the fall of the Tower of Babel many thousands of years ago. They were led by a prophet who successfully pleaded with the Lord to not confound their language.

Of the Jaredites, the Lord promised before they embarked for America:

"And there will I bless thee and thy seed, and raise up unto me of thy seed, and of the seed of thy brother, and they who shall go with thee, a great nation. And there shall be none greater than the nation which I will raise up unto me of thy seed, upon all the face of the earth. And thus I will do unto thee because this long time ye have cried unto me." Ether 1: 43

http://scriptures.lds.org/en/ether/1/43#43 (mhtml:{09272DBB-5804-4926-A7B0-C39813AD4444}mid://00000455/!x-usc:http://scriptures.lds.org/en/ether/1/43#43)


It's not proven of course, but it's possible that the Jaredites are the ancient mother race known today to archaeologists as the "Olmeca." Olmecs were the people who left behind the huge stone heads found in parts of Mexico, seen today in museums.

Mexican folklore speaks of their ancient founders coming to what is now Mexico in eight "caves". The Jaredites came to their "promised land" in eight boats shaped like a bowl or a dish.

"And they were built after a manner that they were exceedingly tight, even that they would hold water like unto a dish; and the bottom thereof was tight like unto a dish; and the sides thereof were tight like unto a dish; and the ends thereof were peaked; and the top thereof was tight like unto a dish; and the length thereof was the length of a tree; and the door thereof, when it was shut, was tight like unto a dish." Ether 2: 17

Anyway, after many centuries the Jaredites became wicked and a civil war erupted during which millions were killed, eventually all of them, except for the prophet left to witness and record the story.

Here's the final scene as Shiz battles with rival king Coriantumr and is killed:

"Now the name of the brother of Lib was called Shiz. And it came to pass that Shiz pursued after Coriantumr, and he did overthrow many cities, and he did slay both women and children, and he did burn the cities. And there went a fear of Shiz throughout all the land; yea, a cry went forth throughout the land—Who can stand before the army of Shiz? Behold, he sweepeth the earth before him!

Fast forward:

"And on the morrow they fought again; and when the night came they had all fallen by the sword save it were fifty and two of the people of Coriantumr, and sixty and nine of the people of Shiz. And when the night came there were thirty and two of the people of Shiz, and twenty and seven of the people of Coriantumr. And it came to pass that when the men of Coriantumr had received sufficient strength that they could walk, they were about to flee for their lives; but behold, Shiz arose, and also his men, and he swore in his wrath that he would slay Coriantumr or he would perish by the sword.

"Wherefore, he did pursue them, and on the morrow he did overtake them; and they fought again with the sword. And it came to pass that when they had all fallen by the sword, save it were Coriantumr and Shiz, behold Shiz had fainted with the loss of blood. And it came to pass that when Coriantumr had leaned upon his sword, that he rested a little, he smote off the head of Shiz. And it came to pass that after he had smitten off the head of Shiz, that Shiz raised up on his hands and fell; and after that he had struggled for breath, he died."


Would you name your kid "Shiz"?

And now you know the rest of the story.


You can read the entire Book of Mormon online:

http://scriptures.lds.org/en/bm/contents (mhtml:{09272DBB-5804-4926-A7B0-C39813AD4444}mid://00000455/!x-usc:http://scriptures.lds.org/en/bm/contents)


Or request delivery of a free Book of Mormon:

http://mormon.org/mormonorg/eng/basic-beliefs/the-restoration-of-truth/god-is-your-loving-heavenly-father (mhtml:{09272DBB-5804-4926-A7B0-C39813AD4444}mid://00000455/!x-usc:http://mormon.org/mormonorg/eng/basic-beliefs/the-restoration-of-truth/god-is-your-loving-heavenly-father)

[orbitaldecay]

Don't Mormons believe that Satan and Jesus are brothers?:mrgreen:

[justamere10]

Don't Mormons believe that Satan and Jesus are brothers?:mrgreen:

Yes, I do.

I believe that life, the universe, and everything is just a FAMILY affair. At some point in time as we know it the spirit that animates and integrates our physical bodies (the 'soul' or 'ghost in the machine') was created by a loving Heavenly Parent.

Our spirit bodies were made in the image and likeness of God, but were not the same as the glorified resurrected body God had.

It is my personal opinion that Heavenly Father's firstborn male spirit was the person we know today as Jesus Christ, our Savior and Redeemer.

Among others created in the first morning of spirit creation was one then called "Lucifer" a son of the morning, and now known as Satan.

So, in spirit form, Jesus and Satan were brothers. You and I, by virtue of that spirit creation, are also brothers or sisters of both Jesus and Satan.

That is how I understand it. I will expand a bit further on what happened to turn Lucifer, a Son of the Morning into the vile creature we know today as Satan.

Thanks for that timely question. It looks like we won't be starting off with cornbread and milk, but will be getting right into the meat of the matter. :-)

[noelle12]

Can a mormon also ask a mormon? I have always wondered why Abinidi came in disguise, then immediately identified himself. (See Mosiah 12:1 (http://scriptures.lds.org/en/mosiah/12))

Seriously, I hope this thread gets some good questions on it.

[Reeder]

Actually, I think orbitaldecay was being sarcastic, seeing as how he is a Mormon himself. He was probably referring to Mike Huckabee's question a few months back.

But your response was good, nevertheless. Thanks!

[Reeder]

Can a mormon also ask a mormon? I have always wondered why Abinidi came in disguise, then immediately identified himself. (See Mosiah 12:1 (http://scriptures.lds.org/en/mosiah/12))



I have no idea. I've never thought about that, before.

[orbitaldecay]

Actually, I think orbitaldecay was being sarcastic, seeing as how he is a Mormon himself. He was probably referring to Mike Huckabee's question a few months back.

But your response was good, nevertheless. Thanks!

Yes on both points!

[Old Tex]

Interresting avatar you have chosen. It's pretty small and hard to see details. Would you describe it more fully?

[justamere10]

Mormons believe that before our spirit bodies came to animate our physical ones, each of us existed for eons of time as we know it in what we call the "pre-existence". We lived in the presence of our loving Heavenly Father and saw that our bodies were not like His. As children on earth do, we too wanted to 'grow up' and become like Him. There were I suppose zillions of us, all brothers and sisters of the same God. Among the 'oldest' of our brothers and sisters were the one we know today as Jesus Christ, and another then called Lucifer.

After much preparation, Father called all of His spirit children to a grand council in heaven. There He proposed a plan in which we would have an opportunity to eventually 'grow up' and become like Him. Today Mormons call that plan the "Plan of Salvation" or "Plan of Happiness". We were so excited about the opportunity that we shouted for joy.

All that took place before the creation of this world.

Father explained that not all of us would make it back to Heaven, the place where He and we then dwelled. That was because "free agency" the power to choose was an eternal principal that He would not deprive us of. Because we would sin, a Savior or Redeemer would be required to make up for our sins and balance the scales of justice.

Jesus volunteered to be that Redeemer, and to do all that Father commanded him to do.

Then Lucifer spoke up and proposed a different plan. With his plan, NONE would be lost. Everyone would make their way back to Heaven. But it would require the taking away of the power to choose. He would FORCE every human being to do as he said. And he would get the glory for his great success.

Well, you can imagine the argument that ensued. Some of us wanted to obey Father implicitly. Others were fearful that they might be among those who would fail the test of mortality and never again be able to live with Father in Heaven.

Arguments, a war of words, took place and over 'time' brothers and sisters divided into two camps. Those who would obey Father, and those fearful ones who loved Lucifer's plan more.

When all the choices were in, Father banished Lucifer from Heaven, and one third of His spirit children who followed the one who would become the Devil, the opposition, the 'dark side'. By their free choice to disobey Father and follow Lucifer, now known as Satan, those who followed him failed their "first estate' and will never get a physical body.

At Father's command, Jesus created the world we now live in, the sun and moon and planets. It was all first done spiritually, a practice run if you will, then physically. Satan and his dark angels were sent to the spirit parts of this world. We know all too well that they are here, trying their best to make us as miserable as they are.

The good news is that everyone of us on this earth today was obedient, we all accepted Heavenly Father's Plan, we all accepted Jesus as our Redeemer.

The other news is that we whose turn it is on this planet today are now in our 'second estate'. We are being tried and tested, as we were earlier in our spirit bodies, to see if we will be obedient to Father while under the 'veil of forgetting'.

We are each writing the rest of our story...

[Reeder]

Interresting avatar you have chosen. It's pretty small and hard to see details. Would you describe it more fully?

Are you talking to me?

[justamere10]

Can a mormon also ask a mormon? I have always wondered why Abinidi came in disguise, then immediately identified himself. (See Mosiah 12:1 (http://scriptures.lds.org/en/mosiah/12))

Seriously, I hope this thread gets some good questions on it.


That verse has made many a Mormon chuckle. Why would Abinadi come "in disguise" and then tell his name?

"And it came to pass that after the space of two years that Abinadi came among them in disguise, that they knew him not, and began to prophesy (mhtml:{09272DBB-5804-4926-A7B0-C39813AD4444}mid://00000585/!x-usc:http://scriptures.lds.org/en/mosiah/12/1a) among them, saying: Thus has the Lord commanded me, saying—Abinadi, go and prophesy unto this my people, for they have hardened their hearts against my words; they have repented not of their evil doings; therefore, I will visit (mhtml:{09272DBB-5804-4926-A7B0-C39813AD4444}mid://00000585/!x-usc:http://scriptures.lds.org/en/mosiah/12/1b) them in my anger, yea, in my fierce anger will I visit them in their iniquities and abominations." Mosiah 12: 1

http://scriptures.lds.org/en/mosiah/12/1#1 (mhtml:{09272DBB-5804-4926-A7B0-C39813AD4444}mid://00000585/!x-usc:http://scriptures.lds.org/en/mosiah/12/1#1)


The record that Joseph Smith translated the Book of Mormon from was inscribed on metal plates. Can you imagine the prophet who wrote that account of Abinadi realizing his mistake sometime later and trying to erase the funny part?

The title page of the Book of Mormon concludes with the statement:

"And now, if there are faults they are the mistakes of men; wherefore, condemn not the things of God, that ye may be found spotless at the judgment-seat of Christ."

http://scriptures.lds.org/en/bm/ttlpg (mhtml:{09272DBB-5804-4926-A7B0-C39813AD4444}mid://00000585/!x-usc:http://scriptures.lds.org/en/bm/ttlpg)


All I can say with my limited knowledge, is "enjoy the chuckle". :-)

[justamere10]

Actually, I think orbitaldecay was being sarcastic, seeing as how he is a Mormon himself. He was probably referring to Mike Huckabee's question a few months back.

But your response was good, nevertheless. Thanks!

Right, I heard about Huckabee. :-)

But it was a good opening, so I took it.

[justamere10]

Interresting avatar you have chosen. It's pretty small and hard to see details. Would you describe it more fully?

If you're referring to mine, yes I'd be pleased to explain.

My avatar is an artist's rendition of Jesus descending from the skies to visit his "other sheep" in America soon after his resurrection.

The Book of Mormon is "Another Testament of Jesus Christ". The book prominently features the sacred record of the "Nephites" descendents of a group of Jews led by a prophet who migrated from Jerusalem to America about 600 BC.

The book includes a record of a visit of the resurrected Christ to the Nephites . The visit lasted as he came and went for several days.

On this continent Jesus organized his Church with 12 "disciples" or apostles the same as he did in Jerusalem.

[Sketch]

I have questions.

I know that the golden plates are no longer around, but what about the stones and the hat Joseph Smith used to translate them, are they anywhere to be seen?

There seems to be a lot of concern about polygamy in the early LDS church (and that's really no different than other major religions except that LDS is much newer). What fundamentally changed in the doctrine of the faith to end the practice, and do you think this is a good thing.

Did Joseph Smith write anything aside from transcribing the book of Mormon?

Is it true that Smith was arrested prior to his creating the church, and what does the church teach about that, if anything?

Lastly, my understanding is that Mormons believe that the Native American Peoples are direct descendants of the early Israelites, but, thus far, there doesn't seem to be any biological, archeological, or linguistic evidence.

[Predecessor]

I got a question.....why would anyone name their kid "Shiz?" :D

I got the humor Reeder. :D Thanks, a perfect end to a long work day...

[RayMan]

I got the humor Reeder. :D Thanks, a perfect end to a long work day...

Unfortunately its not just a name from the BOM anymore. It is also a modern slang term.

[justamere10]

I have questions.

I know that the golden plates are no longer around, but what about the stones and the hat Joseph Smith used to translate them, are they anywhere to be seen?

There seems to be a lot of concern about polygamy in the early LDS church (and that's really no different than other major religions except that LDS is much newer). What fundamentally changed in the doctrine of the faith to end the practice, and do you think this is a good thing.

Did Joseph Smith write anything aside from transcribing the book of Mormon?

Is it true that Smith was arrested prior to his creating the church, and what does the church teach about that, if anything?

Lastly, my understanding is that Mormons believe that the Native American Peoples are direct descendants of the early Israelites, but, thus far, there doesn't seem to be any biological, archeological, or linguistic evidence.


Sorry, I am not aware of the location of Joseph Smith's hat. Perhaps he had more than one during his lifetime, maybe some blew away in the wind. :-)

The seer stone or "Urim and Thummin" that was the instrument God provided to translate the "reformed Egyptian" characters on the ancient plates were returned to Moroni along with the plates. Moroni was the son of Mormon. He was the last to write on the plates, about 421 AD.

Under the direction of God, Moroni buried the plates in a stone box in upstate New York where God knew Joseph Smith would be located in the early 1800's. It was that same prophet Moroni who appeared to Joseph Smith as a resurrected being in the early 1800's, and showed Joseph where the Nephite record had been hidden.


Polygamy was commanded of the early Saints by the Lord to test the obedience of his people, and to "raise up seed unto me."

In November 1891, President Wilford R. Woodruff, who was the head of the LDS Church at the time, received a vision in which he saw what would happen if the Church continued on with the practice of polygamy after it had been made illegal by the laws of man.


This is how Wilford Woodruff described the vision:

"I have had some revelations of late, and very important ones to me, and I will tell you what the Lord has said to me. Let me bring your minds to what is termed the manifesto. . . .

The Lord has told me to ask the Latter-day Saints a question, and He also told me that if they would listen to what I said to them and answer the question put to them, by the Spirit and power of God, they would all answer alike, and they would all believe alike with regard to this matter.

The question is this: Which is the wisest course for the Latter-day Saints to pursue—to continue to attempt to practice plural marriage, with the laws of the nation against it and the opposition of sixty millions of people, and at the cost of the confiscation and loss of all the Temples, and the stopping of all the ordinances therein, both for the living and the dead, and the imprisonment of the First Presidency and Twelve and the heads of families in the Church, and the confiscation of personal property of the people (all of which of themselves would stop the practice); or, after doing and suffering what we have through our adherence to this principle to cease the practice and submit to the law, and through doing so leave the Prophets, Apostles and fathers at home, so that they can instruct the people and attend to the duties of the Church, and also leave the Temples in the hands of the Saints, so that they can attend to the ordinances of the Gospel, both for the living and the dead?

The Lord showed me by vision and revelation exactly what would take place if we did not stop this practice. If we had not stopped it, you would have had no use for . . . any of the men in this temple at Logan; for all ordinances would be stopped throughout the land of Zion. Confusion would reign throughout Israel, and many men would be made prisoners. This trouble would have come upon the whole Church, and we should have been compelled to stop the practice. Now, the question is, whether it should be stopped in this manner, or in the way the Lord has manifested to us, and leave our Prophets and Apostles and fathers free men, and the temples in the hands of the people, so that the dead may be redeemed. A large number has already been delivered from the prison house in the spirit world by this people, and shall the work go on or stop? This is the question I lay before the Latter-day Saints. You have to judge for yourselves. I want you to answer it for yourselves. I shall not answer it; but I say to you that that is exactly the condition we as a people would have been in had we not taken the course we have.

. . . I saw exactly what would come to pass if there was not something done. I have had this spirit upon me for a long time. But I want to say this: I should have let all the temples go out of our hands; I should have gone to prison myself, and let every other man go there, had not the God of heaven commanded me to do what I did do; and when the hour came that I was commanded to do that, it was all clear to me. I went before the Lord, and I wrote what the Lord told me to write. . . .

I leave this with you, for you to contemplate and consider. The Lord is at work with us."

(Cache Stake Conference, Logan, Utah, Sunday, November 1, 1891. Reported in Deseret Weekly, November 14, 1891.)

http://scriptures.lds.org/en/od/1 (mhtml:{09272DBB-5804-4926-A7B0-C39813AD4444}mid://00000501/!x-usc:http://scriptures.lds.org/en/od/1)



Further polygamous unions were soon after stopped, but it was difficult to prevent the men who already had families from visiting their wife and children. Some moved to Canada or Mexico where polygamy was legal.

Some critics say that the vision quoted above was too close to the time Utah petitioned for statehood to be the real reason why polygamy was stopped. I'll leave that up to you to decide. As for me, I believe that President Woodruff was a prophet and did receive that vision.

I always think it is "a good thing" to obey the Lord.


Joseph Smith and his brother were killed by a mob of about 200 people led by a minister of religion when Joseph was only 39 years old. So he was prevented from doing everything he could have done as Prophet of the Restoration. However, yes, after translating the Book of Mormon by the power of God he did write other things and do some more translating. The canon of the LDS Church consists of the Bible, the Book of Mormon, The Pearl of Great Price, and the Doctrine and Covenants. All except the bible and a few newer revelations in the D&C came from the work of Joseph Smith.

I am not familiar with Joseph being arrested prior to 1830 when the LDS Church was legally organized. He was only 14 years old when God the Father and Jesus Christ first appeared to him. He was just an ordinary semi-literate farm boy until his mission as Prophet of the Restoration began. Soon after seeing God the Father and Jesus Christ he told a minister of religion that he had seen God. From that point on Joseph was persecuted, beaten, tarred and feathered, falsely arrested and never convicted, sentenced to death the same day by the U.S. army, etc. until finally his martyrdom in 1844.


Your last statement is questionable, but today there is no scientific "proof" of the Book of Mormon or descendents of its people. If you are genuinely interested in all things Book of Mormon and archaeology, I recommend the following website:

http://www.mormonsites.org (mhtml:{09272DBB-5804-4926-A7B0-C39813AD4444}mid://00000501/!x-usc:http://www.mormonsites.org/)


The proof of the Book of Mormon is a spiritual one:

"Behold, I would exhort you that when ye shall read these things, if it be wisdom in God that ye should read them, that ye would remember how merciful the Lord hath been unto the children of men, from the creation of Adam even down until the time that ye shall receive these things, and ponder it in your hearts. And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost. And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of all things." Moroni 10: 3-5

http://scriptures.lds.org/en/moro/10/3-5#3 (mhtml:{09272DBB-5804-4926-A7B0-C39813AD4444}mid://00000501/!x-usc:http://scriptures.lds.org/en/moro/10/3-5#3)


I have personally applied that test and I can tell you that the Book of Mormon is the word of God.

Thank-you for your important questions.

[justamere10]

I have questions.

I know that the golden plates are no longer around, but what about the stones and the hat Joseph Smith used to translate them, are they anywhere to be seen?




Perhaps I made too light of your question about the location of Joseph Smith's hat.

I think there were times when Joseph Smith placed the seer stone in the bottom of a hat.

To me that seems like a creative solution to a problem.

If the LCD on my PDA or watch or whatever was dim and hard to read in broad daylight and I had a hat conveniently nearby I might put the LCD device in the hat and lean over it to further block the light and get a better read of what's on the screen.

Mere speculation on my part of course, but a plausible explanation for what some LDS critics like to scoff at.

[CALady]

I have a question.

What does "just a mere 10" mean? ;)

[justamere10]

Unfortunately its not just a name from the BOM anymore. It is also a modern slang term.


Tell me about it, I'm not familiar with the slang.

[RayMan]

Tell me about it, I'm not familiar with the slang.

I will pm you.

[justamere10]

I have a question.

What does "just a mere 10" mean? ;)

Before I started my polical blog "A Blog for Conservative Values" I gave some thought to a suitable pen name. I wanted one that could be googled and come up with, ahem, well, me.

Here's how it goes in my own mind:

"I'm just a mere man who sometimes fancies he's a '10' on some topic."

I'm still searching for that topic. Maybe it's ahem, well, me. :-)

[justamere10]

I will pm you.

That bad eh?

[RayMan]

Before I started my polical blog "A Blog for Conservative Values" I gave some thought to a suitable pen name. I wanted one that could be googled and come up with, ahem, well, me.

Here's how it goes in my own mind:

"I'm just a mere man who sometimes fancies he's a '10' on some topic."

I'm still searching for that topic. Maybe it's ahem, well, me. :-)

I figured it was something like that since I am guessing you bear no resemblance to Bo Derek. :D

[CALady]

Before I started my polical blog "A Blog for Conservative Values" I gave some thought to a suitable pen name. I wanted one that could be googled and come up with, ahem, well, me.

Here's how it goes in my own mind:

"I'm just a mere man who sometimes fancies he's a '10' on some topic."

I'm still searching for that topic. Maybe it's ahem, well, me. :-)

Ah. It's interesting how people come up with these names. Thanks.

[justamere10]

I figured it was something like that since I am guessing you bear no resemblance to Bo Derek. :D

I represent that remark...

[THE LIGHT]

-

If they were not of God, I would not be one of them...



That is about like an atheist saying if it wasn't for no god I would believe in one.:D

[RayMan]

I represent that remark...

Hey, we all gotta represent! I thought you weren't down with modern slang...:D

[RayMan]

That is about like an atheist saying if it wasn't for no god I would believe in one.:D

And your remark is about as edifying as Albert King singing:

"If it wasn't for real bad luck, I wouldn't have no luck at all."

[justamere10]

That is about like an atheist saying if it wasn't for no god I would believe in one.:D

At least I know some people actually get to the bottom of my looong posts. :-)

[bluebird]

Where do you put your horns when you go out in public?:mrgreen: Sorry. I couldn't resist.

[orbitaldecay]

Where do you put your horns when you go out in public?:mrgreen: Sorry. I couldn't resist.

Or how many wives do you have?

[justamere10]

Hey, we all gotta represent! I thought you weren't down with modern slang...:D


I still remember when I first heard that one, way back in college days more than 30 years ago, thought it was clever. For me that's "modern" I guess.

[justamere10]

Where do you put your horns when you go out in public?:mrgreen: Sorry. I couldn't resist.

I have a VERY tall hat. It's sometimes useful for checking the time and things like that too. But you should know all about that...

[justamere10]

Or how many wives do you have?


Dunno, my digs got raided last week. You?

[THE LIGHT]

And your remark is about as edifying as Albert King singing:

"If it wasn't for real bad luck, I wouldn't have no luck at all."

close, but not quite.:lol:

[THE LIGHT]

Where do you put your horns when you go out in public?:mrgreen: Sorry. I couldn't resist.

Is that horns as in horns or horns as in :twisted:

:D

[justamere10]

Is that horns as in horns or horns as in :twisted:

:D

Imagine that eh...

[Snow]

Sorry, I am not aware of the location of Joseph Smith's hat. Perhaps he had more than one during his lifetime, maybe some blew away in the wind. :-)

The seer stone or "Urim and Thummin" that was the instrument God provided to translate the "reformed Egyptian" characters on the ancient plates were returned to Moroni along with the plates. Moroni was the son of Mormon. He was the last to write on the plates, about 421 AD.

Under the direction of God, Moroni buried the plates in a stone box in upstate New York where God knew Joseph Smith would be located in the early 1800's. It was that same prophet Moroni who appeared to Joseph Smith as a resurrected being in the early 1800's, and showed Joseph where the Nephite record had been hidden.




The Urim and Thummin and the seer stone (what some call the peep stone) are two different and seperate things - even though some confuse them The seer stone was obtained by Joseph Smith while hired out to dig a well, though there are a couple of seer stones in LDS history. The majority of the Book of Mormon was translated via the seer stone in Joseph's hat. The Church has one of the seer stones in it's possession and it was on the mantle during the dedication of the Manti temple if I remember correctly.

The Church has

[Old Tex]

Or how many wives do you have?

I know that I won't be taking on any more for a while. Multiple wives are getting to be too expensive with the cost of everything going up all the time. If three of them weren't working full time I just don't know how I would make it.

[Snow]

Did Joseph Smith write anything aside from transcribing the book of Mormon?


Yes - lots:

http://www.josephsmithpapers.org/Default.htm

http://www.josephsmithpapers.org/AboutTheVolumes.htm

[justamere10]

The Urim and Thummin and the seer stone (what some call the peep stone) are two different and seperate things - even though some confuse them The seer stone was obtained by Joseph Smith while hired out to dig a well, though there are a couple of seer stones in LDS history. The majority of the Book of Mormon was translated via the seer stone in Joseph's hat. The Church has one of the seer stones in it's possession and it was on the mantle during the dedication of the Manti temple if I remember correctly.



Yes, I think you are right about the seer stone. They were apparently not that uncommon in those days.

I once saw a replica of the Urim and Thummim. When it's folded it makes a perfect Star of David.

[Tucson Jim]

Yes, I do.

I believe that life, the universe, and everything is just a FAMILY affair. At some point in time as we know it the spirit that animates and integrates our physical bodies (the 'soul' or 'ghost in the machine') was created by a loving Heavenly Parent.

Our spirit bodies were made in the image and likeness of God, but were not the same as the glorified resurrected body God had.

It is my personal opinion that Heavenly Father's firstborn male spirit was the person we know today as Jesus Christ, our Savior and Redeemer.

Among others created in the first morning of spirit creation was one then called "Lucifer" a son of the morning, and now known as Satan.


According to Col 1 and John 1, Jesus created Lucifer.

[justamere10]

I know that I won't be taking on any more for a while. Multiple wives are getting to be too expensive with the cost of everything going up all the time. If three of them weren't working full time I just don't know how I would make it.


Yeh. Some people trade up you know, maybe you could try that. There's always people lookin fer two twenties fer a forty.

[justamere10]

According to Col 1 and John 1, Jesus created Lucifer.


With all the bantering happening right now I don't know if you are serious or not. If you are, please drill it down to verses so I can look it up and comment, thanks.

[RayMan]

I know that I won't be taking on any more for a while. Multiple wives are getting to be too expensive with the cost of everything going up all the time. If three of them weren't working full time I just don't know how I would make it.

Ain't that the truth? Plus which, that whole gettin' hit upside the head with a skillet from the present wife when I say the word multiple gets painful...

[THE LIGHT]

What planet do you plan on inhabiting in the afterlife?:angel:

[justamere10]

Ain't that the truth? Plus which, that whole gettin' hit upside the head with a skillet from the present wife when I say the word multiple gets painful...

Multiply that by three or four and you'll know what them marmons feel like. Maybe that's why they wear them tall hats on their heads all the time, bumps n all you know. Go figure...

[RayMan]

What planet do you plan on inhabiting in the afterlife?:angel:

I'm thinkin' New Eartth, New Jerusalem. But that's just me. Oops, wait, not a Mormon, backing away slowly from thread. Bye ya'll.

[RayMan]

Multiply that by three or four and you'll know what them marmons feel like. Maybe that's why they wear them tall hats on their heads all the time. Go figure...

Remember the old Bugs Bunny, Yosemite Sam tea party?

One lump, or two?

[Frazzled]

Wow! Reeder, I'm diggin' the new Avitar!

[Frazzled]

..and Light has one too .

What did you guys all re-decorate while I was away?

[RayMan]

Wow! Reeder, I'm diggin' the new Avitar!

Witch-King from Angmar Reeder. Yeh, that's all we need.

How you doin' Fraz?

[justamere10]

What planet do you plan on inhabiting in the afterlife?:angel:

You know, a lot of non-LDS seem to have that idea, it must be floating around on the auntie sites.

As you may be aware, some Mormons think that life, the universe and everything is just a family affair. Most Mormons have probably not even thought it through that far though, they're still focusing on whether Coke's ok and Pepsi's not, or vice versa, and the Relief Society party coming up next Saturday, no I think it's Friday actually. :-) (Just joking.)

We believe that Heavenly Father will share everything He has with His children who make their way back to Him. So I guess it's possible that there might be a few vacant planets left to inherit.

Personally, if I make it, I'd rather create my own and populate them with my own spirit children the way He did.

[Frazzled]

Witch-King from Angmar Reeder. Yeh, that's all we need.

How you doin' Fraz?


I was going to ask a mormon....:shifty:

[Old Tex]

According to Col 1 and John 1, Jesus created Lucifer.

Please elaborate and clearify.

[RayMan]

I was going to ask a mormon....:shifty:

Aw, ask a Pentecostal. Six of one, half dozen of another...:hug:

[justamere10]

Remember the old Bugs Bunny, Yosemite Sam tea party?

One lump, or two?

That was before my time RayMan.

[Frazzled]

I know that I won't be taking on any more for a while. Multiple wives are getting to be too expensive with the cost of everything going up all the time. If three of them weren't working full time I just don't know how I would make it.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v388/scrappydo89012/smilies/smiley_emoticons_skeptisch-1.gif

I think I'm a little insulted.........

[RayMan]

That was before my time RayMan.

OK, that was cruel.

[Frazzled]

Aw, ask a Pentecostal. Six of one, half dozen of another...:hug:

Okay, How am I doin' Rayman? http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v388/scrappydo89012/smilies/smiley_emoticons_unknownauthor_lol.gif

[RayMan]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v388/scrappydo89012/smilies/smiley_emoticons_skeptisch-1.gif

I think I'm a little insulted.........

Because you are too expensive as a multiple wife or.....

[RayMan]

Okay, How am I doin' Rayman? http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v388/scrappydo89012/smilies/smiley_emoticons_unknownauthor_lol.gif

Doin' fab, far as I'm concerned. Did I mention this is the weekend?!! Woo-hoo.

[justamere10]

Aw, ask a Pentecostal. Six of one, half dozen of another...:hug:

Yeah, we decided in the other thread that the Pentecostals were going to change the sign on their mega churches to "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints" and we'd all instantly be ONE.

Not sure if kumbayah would make a good hymn though, we'd have to argue that one out. May be a deal breaker, hadn't thought of that.

[Old Tex]

Aw, ask a Pentecostal. Six of one, half dozen of another...:hug:

Yeah, some folks rate them about equal on the "weird meter".

[Frazzled]

Because you are too expensive as a multiple wife or.....

Hey! You get what you pay for http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v388/scrappydo89012/smilies/smiley_emoticons_unknownauthor_cool.gif

[justamere10]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v388/scrappydo89012/smilies/smiley_emoticons_skeptisch-1.gif

I think I'm a little insulted.........


You don't like yer job er what?

[RayMan]

Yeah, we decided in the other thread that the Pentecostals were going to change the sign on their mega churches to "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints" and we'd all instantly be ONE.

Not sure if kumbayah would make a good hymn though, we'd have to argue that one out. May be a deal breaker, hadn't thought of that.


Kumbayah is really more Baptist when you get down to brass tacks.

Pentecostal/Mormon theme song?

Might want to go with "Glory, Glory, Glory, Somebody Touched Me..." Just sayin'.

[Tucson Jim]

With all the bantering happening right now I don't know if you are serious or not. If you are, please drill it down to verses so I can look it up and comment, thanks.

Oh, sorry, I thought you would be familiar with those verses.

Col 1:16 - "For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him."

John 1:1 - 3 - "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

The same was in the beginning with God.

All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. "

[RayMan]

Hey! You get what you pay for http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v388/scrappydo89012/smilies/smiley_emoticons_unknownauthor_cool.gif

Hey, everybody knows you are high class. In fact, a very classy lady. With an exceptionally forgiving nature.

[RayMan]

Yeah, some folks rate them about equal on the "weird meter".

Spoken like a fella who in been in Texas for quite a while now.

[Frazzled]

Hey, everybody knows you are high class. In fact, a very classy lady. With an exceptionally forgiving nature.

Aaw, thanks.

[RayMan]

Aaw, thanks.

My pleasure.

[Frazzled]

You don't like yer job er what?

I'm just kidding - I think I've had too much caffeine tonight to be playing in the Religion Forum! bye guys :hug:

[justamere10]

Kumbayah is really more Baptist when you get down to brass tacks.

Pentecostal/Mormon theme song?

Might want to go with "Glory, Glory, Glory, Somebody Touched Me..." Just sayin'.

Ok, at least we're still talking. I'll meet you half way, Glory, Glory, Glory sung to the tune of Kumbayah. Course I'd have to get a leader to sign off on it.

[RayMan]

Ok, at least we're still talking. I'll meet you half way, Glory, Glory, Glory sung to the tune of Kumbayah. Course I'd have to get a leader to sign off on it.

:mrgreen:

No hurry, I can wait. Does it have to go through a committee?

[CALady]

Oh, sorry, I thought you would be familiar with those verses.

Col 1:16 - "For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him."

John 1:1 - 3 - "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

The same was in the beginning with God.

All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. "

Of course, we're quite familiar with those verses. However, what they say may or may not be "clear" depending on several things.

"The Beginning" of what? The earth? Did anything exist before the earth?

Was everything made? Or were some things not made but existed before the earth was made?

Made from what? Nothing? Something?

If you have Jesus creating Satan, then did Jesus create evil?

So, no. It's not really all that "clear".

[justamere10]

Oh, sorry, I thought you would be familiar with those verses.

Col 1:16 - "For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him."

John 1:1 - 3 - "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

The same was in the beginning with God.

All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. "


Well, we know that Jesus didn't create God the Father, nor did he create evil or sin, nor did he create my physical body.

Mormons do believe that it was Jesus Christ, acting under Heavenly Father's direction, who created "all things" such as this planet, moon, sun, etc. But it was Heavenly Father who created our spirit bodies, including that of Jesus and Lucifer.

I can't begin to imagine Jesus creating his own brother. (See my earlier post on that matter.) Nor do I believe that Jesus Christ created me, also his brother in the spirit creation, or you. That was done by our Heavenly Father.

[CALady]

:mrgreen:

No hurry, I can wait. Does it have to go through a committee?

Just the Bishop, I think. If you want to perform music that isn't in the Hymnal, you have to get permission. Keeps people from surprises like having to sit through "Back in Black!" on Sunday Morning. ;)

[justamere10]

:mrgreen:

No hurry, I can wait. Does it have to go through a committee?

Nah, we don't do that. Theocracy you know.

[CALady]

Well, we know that Jesus didn't create God the Father, nor did he create evil or sin, nor did he create my physical body.

Mormons do believe that it was Jesus Christ, acting under Heavenly Father's direction, who created "all things" such as this planet, moon, sun, etc. But it was Heavenly Father who created our spirit bodies, including that of Jesus and Lucifer.

I can't begin to imagine Jesus creating his own brother. (See my earlier post on that matter.) Nor do I believe that Jesus Christ created me, also his brother in the spirit creation, or you. That was done by our Heavenly Father.


I'm thinking the cells, the DNA, in your physical body was originally created. Your parents just put the bits together, so to speak. ;)

[justamere10]

I'm thinking the cells, the DNA, in your physical body was originally created. Your parents just put the bits together, so to speak. ;)


Now you're really drilling deep. Yes, original substance, the missing link, I know it as "intelligence", co-eternal with God, the stuff He drew upon to animate those spirit bodies. But that stuff was strung together in what we call today "DNA" by our ancestors.

[CALady]

Now you're really drilling deep. Yes, original substance, the missing link, I know it as "intelligence", co-eternal with God, the stuff He drew upon to animate those spirit bodies. But that stuff was strung together in what we call today "DNA" by our ancestors.

I think of it as our spirits are that eternal intelligence, formed by God into to our individual beings.

But you were talking about the physical body, and I would say that God created it out of the "dust of the earth". Our DNA goes all the way back to the original humans, whom God created. Then placed our spirits in our bodies.

[justamere10]

I'm thinking the cells, the DNA, in your physical body was originally created. Your parents just put the bits together, so to speak. ;)


The following is not an LDS source but it gives pause for thought:


"The tendency of modern physics is to resolve the whole material universe into waves, and nothing but waves. These are waves of two kinds: bottled up waves which we call matter, and unbottled waves which we call radiation or LIGHT. If annihilation of matter occurs, the process is merely that of unbottling imprisoned wave energy and letting it fall to travel through space. These concepts reduce the whole universe to a world of LIGHT; potential and existent, so that the whole story of creation can be told with perfect accuracy and completeness in the six words: God said, "LET THERE BE LIGHT!" Sir James Jeans

[THE LIGHT]

You know, a lot of non-LDS seem to have that idea, it must be floating around on the auntie sites.

How did I know that would be part of your answer. Just a simple Ctrl+C away I guess.:D

As you may be aware, some Mormons think that life, the universe and everything is just a family affair. Most Mormons have probably not even thought it through that far though, they're still focusing on whether Coke's ok and Pepsi's not, or vice versa, and the Relief Society party coming up next Saturday, no I think it's Friday actually.

:)):)) I havn't heard that one for a while... You mean I can't go to heaven if I drink a Coke.:eek:

We believe that Heavenly Father will share everything He has with His children who make their way back to Him. So I guess it's possible that there might be a few vacant planets left to inherit.

Say, Mars and Uranus? I am not sure but, will the sun be inhabitable too?


Personally, if I make it, I'd rather create my own and populate them with my own spirit children the way He did.

Hmmmmm... okay, well, um, yeah, that is a little off, but whatever you say.:rolleyes:

[CALady]

How did I know that would be part of your answer. Just a simple Ctrl+C away I guess.:D



:)):)) I havn't heard that one for a while... You mean I can't go to heaven if I drink a Coke.:eek:



Say, Mars and Uranus? I am not sure but, will the sun be inhabitable too?




Hmmmmm... okay, well, um, yeah, that is a little off, but whatever you say.:rolleyes:

Did you miss the entire "tongue in cheek" in that post?

[THE LIGHT]

Did you miss the entire "tongue in cheek" in that post?

:eh:

[justamere10]

I think of it as our spirits are that eternal intelligence, formed by God into to our individual beings.

But you were talking about the physical body, and I would say that God created it out of the "dust of the earth". Our DNA goes all the way back to the original humans, whom God created. Then placed our spirits in our bodies.


I agree on the latter. We've got some of Adam and Eve in us through Noah and his family. Apparently nobody is further apart than 32nd cousin.

[THE LIGHT]

I agree on the latter. We've got some of Adam and Eve in us through Noah and his family...

Well yes, unless you came from an alien right?

[yguy]

Polygamy was commanded of the early Saints by the Lord <snip>Where do you get that idea?

[CALady]

:eh:


You responded as if the original post was serious, apparently missing the intent to be humorous.

[CALady]

Where do you get that idea?

Um... from the Lord through his prophet?

[justamere10]

:)):)) I havn't heard that one for a while... You mean I can't go to heaven if I drink a Coke.:eek:

Say, Mars and Uranus? I am not sure but, will the sun be inhabitable too?



Nope, but Pepsi's ok. :-)

Actually most Mormons never give cola drinks a thought. It's not asked in the temple recommend interviews that are considered the standard measure of who's faithful and who's not so faithful.

There might be a few though...


The Lord says he is the "light of the sun". But we know in prophecy there will come a time when the sun will be darkened like sackcloth. (Maybe just volcanic dust in the air?) Prophesy is fascinating, just not really needful to know for salvation, just for preparedness.

[yguy]

Um... from the Lord through his prophet?Which prophet?

[CALady]

Which prophet?

Joseph Smith.

Are you new here?

[THE LIGHT]

Where do you get that idea?

I think he is just joking but maybe Joseph Smith used it as an excuse.

Athiests found a way to have multiple relationships by denying God; JS just incorperated it into his.:lol:

[CALady]

Nope, but Pepsi's ok. :-)

Actually most Mormons never give cola drinks a thought. It's not asked in the temple recommend interviews that are considered the standard measure of who's faithful and who's not so faithful.

There might be a few though...


The Lord says he is the "light of the sun". But we know in prophecy there will come a time when the sun will be darkened like sackcloth. (Maybe just volcanic dust in the air?) Prophesy is fascinating, just not really needful to know for salvation, just for preparedness.

I've had people swear that the Mormon church owns Pepsi. Or is it Coke? :))

[justamere10]

Well yes, unless you came from an alien right?

Yeah, I guess we have to make an exception for illegal immigrants... :-)

[CALady]

I think he is just joking but maybe Joseph Smith used it as an excuse.

Athiests found a way to have multiple relationships by denying God; JS just incorperated it into his.:lol:

Well, either you believe Smith was a prophet or you don't. If you don't, then I suppose you can come up with all kinds of your own reasons for things.

[justamere10]

Where do you get that idea?


Maybe I've been hanging around Mormons too long. :-)

[THE LIGHT]

Nope, but Pepsi's ok. :-)

Actually most Mormons never give cola drinks a thought. It's not asked in the temple recommend interviews that are considered the standard measure of who's faithful and who's not so faithful.

I know! I just like to kid Mormons on that one.:D

The Lord says he is the "light of the sun". But we know in prophecy there will come a time when the sun will be darkened like sackcloth. (Maybe just volcanic dust in the air?) Prophesy is fascinating, just not really needful to know for salvation, just for preparedness.

It is very facinating to look at all of the prophesy in depth, but you are right Jesus is the Way, the Truth and the Life, no man comes unto the Father but through him.

I do believe also that the sun will not be needed any more as His glory will be sufficient.

[yguy]

Joseph Smith.Why do you believe he was a prophet?

[THE LIGHT]

I've had people swear that the Mormon church owns Pepsi. Or is it Coke? :))

So far that I know it is Coke.

[justamere10]

I've had people swear that the Mormon church owns Pepsi. Or is it Coke? :))

Probably Pepsi. I don't think the church has enough clout to influence all those restaurants that serve only inferior Coke products.

[THE LIGHT]

Why do you believe he was a prophet?

because he (Joseph Smith) said so.:D

[CALady]

Why do you believe he was a prophet?

How much time do you have?

Ok, the short answer is, I've studied and prayed about this for years and became convinced that Joseph Smith was a prophet of God.

[yguy]

Maybe I've been hanging around Mormons too long. :-)So you believe it because it's part of the Mormon catechism, and you want, for whatever reason, to be/remain a Mormon. Is that accurate?

[tislaw]

That was before my time RayMan.


Not before mine, so to speak....of course, I STILL watch old cartoons, Bugs Bunny, Tom & Jerry and every Hanna Barbera cartoon out there (not including the Tom & Jerry one's done by Hanna Barbera cause that would be redundent) :razz: Ok, now I'm shutin' up, shutin' up....

[CALady]

So you believe it because it's part of the Mormon catechism, and you want, for whatever reason, to be/remain a Mormon. Is that accurate?

Do we have a catechism?

[justamere10]

It is very facinating to look at all of the prophesy in depth, but you are right Jesus is the Way, the Truth and the Life, no man comes unto the Father but through him.

I do believe also that the sun will not be needed any more as His glory will be sufficient.

Amen to that.

[THE LIGHT]

How much time do you have?

Ok, the short answer is, I've studied and prayed about this for years and became convinced that Joseph Smith was a prophet of God.

I will take that as proof.

[CALady]

I will take that as proof.

It's not offered as proof. It's offered as my opinion. My faith and the certainty of my faith.

[justamere10]

So you believe it because it's part of the Mormon catechism, and you want, for whatever reason, to be/remain a Mormon. Is that accurate?


Oops, I think you've got the wrong church, maybe try the "Ask a Catholic" forum?

[CALady]

Can you prove that Jesus was the Son of God? That He was resurrected?

I can't.

I believe it because I've studied and prayed about it and became convinced of it.

[tislaw]

I think he is just joking but maybe Joseph Smith used it as an excuse.

Athiests found a way to have multiple relationships by denying God; JS just incorperated it into his.:lol:

:rolleyes:

[yguy]

I've studiedDoes that include the Bible? And if yes, where in it do you find any endorsement of polygamy by God?

[CALady]

Does that include the Bible? And if yes, where in it do you find any endorsement of polygamy by God?

Yes, mostly the Bible.

God gave wives to David. You can look it up.

[justamere10]

Not before mine, so to speak....of course, I STILL watch old cartoons, Bugs Bunny, Tom & Jerry and every Hanna Barbera cartoon out there (not including the Tom & Jerry one's done by Hanna Barbera cause that would be redundent) :razz: Ok, now I'm shutin' up, shutin' up....

Wow, Mods LIVE!

Somehow I thought they'd just faded away because they did such a good job in the past that the mere thought of their presence keeps everyone on the straight and narrow.

Welcome, welcome, we'll make a tabernacle for you... :-)

[THE LIGHT]

Oops, I think you've got the wrong church, maybe try the "Ask a Catholic" forum?

I was going to say, it was sounding like Catholic terms to me!

[yguy]

Oops, I think you've got the wrong church, maybe try the "Ask a Catholic" forum?Since you're not giving me straight answers, I'm trying kind of a shotgun approach. <shrug>

[THE LIGHT]

Wow, Mods LIVE!

Somehow I thought they'd just faded away because they did such a good job in the past that the mere thought of their presence keeps everyone on the straight and narrow.

Welcome, welcome, we'll make a tabernacle for you... :-)

Don't worry, most of the mods happen to be LDS.:angel:

[justamere10]

It's not offered as proof. It's offered as my opinion. My faith and the certainty of my faith.

I always accept, respect, and do not challenge anyone who responds that they believe something on faith.

It's when they try to prove it in writing that I feel everyone else is entitled to analyze and comment.

[tislaw]

Probably Pepsi. I don't think the church has enough clout to influence all those restaurants that serve only inferior Coke products.

Nah, the Church works with Diet Pepsi and Regular Coke.....Pepsi, and Diet Coke are Satan's tools...;)

[CALady]

Does that include the Bible? And if yes, where in it do you find any endorsement of polygamy by God?

By the way. You do realize that you picked out that snippet from a long post talking about how polygamy is NOT practiced today, nor has it been for over 100 years. And one will be excommunicated from the LDS church if they practice it right?

[justamere10]

Since you're not giving me straight answers, I'm trying kind of a shotgun approach. <shrug>

Don't let us drive you away, you are as welcome here as anyone else.

[yguy]

Yes, mostly the Bible.

God gave wives to David. You can look it up.I know the passage, and it is certainly not intended as an endorsement of polygamy, any more than allowing divorce was an endorsement of that particular outrage against marriage.

[tislaw]

Don't worry, most of the mods happen to be LDS.:angel:

Nah, just this one........there is a Penecostal, a Catholic, a Salvationist and a couple of non-denominationals.....we are well represented here :razz:

[CALady]

I know the passage, and it is certainly not intended as an endorsement of polygamy, any more than allowing divorce was an endorsement of that particular outrage against marriage.

Endorse... or allow. It was practiced in the Old Testament nonetheless and God allowed it.

Personally, I think it serves an extremely limited purpose and as a practice is too prone to abuse. Which is why I don't believe it's the optimum relationship for marriage and is not allowed today.

[yguy]

Don't let us drive you away, you are as welcome here as anyone else.Welcome to ask pointed questions and be treated to evasions from you?

Gee, thanks. :)

[justamere10]

Nah, the Church works with Diet Pepsi and Regular Coke.....Pepsi, and Diet Coke are Satan's tools...;)

I won't argue with you. But I AM going to finish my Pepsi. So there.

By the way, taste tests prove...

[CALady]

Welcome to ask pointed questions and be treated to evasions from you?

Gee, thanks. :)

You mean your question about Catechism? Can you repeat the question? I didn't really understand it.

[yguy]

By the way. You do realize that you picked out that snippet from a long post talking about how polygamy is NOT practiced today, nor has it been for over 100 years. And one will be excommunicated from the LDS church if they practice it right?I don't doubt any of that. What I'm questioning is how you're able to justify calling a man who spouts such nonsense a prophet.

[justamere10]

Welcome to ask pointed questions and be treated to evasions from you?

Gee, thanks. :)

Yes, welcome to ask pointed questions.

[tislaw]

I won't argue with you. But I AM going to finish my Pepsi. So there.

By the way, taste tests prove...


That Diet Pepsi is so very good and regular Coke is ambrosia.....and the others suck bilge water ;)

[tislaw]

I don't doubt any of that. What I'm questioning is how you're able to justify calling a man who spouts such nonsense a prophet.

What nonsense? Please illustrate.

[yguy]

You mean your question about Catechism?I was talking to justamere, not you.

[CALady]

I don't doubt any of that. What I'm questioning is how you're able to justify calling a man who spouts such nonsense a prophet.

Wow... nonsense?

Do you expect me to take you seriously with such an attitude?

Polygamy accounts for about 1/10th of 1 percent of what Joseph Smith was about.

I have the advantage of having the entire picture of the restored gospel, unlike you who only want to focus on one small thing that hasn't been part of our church for over 100 years. You realize that polygamy was not rare in the US during the 19th Century, right?

[tislaw]

I know the passage, and it is certainly not intended as an endorsement of polygamy, any more than allowing divorce was an endorsement of that particular outrage against marriage.

So, let me get this correct....God gave divorce to the earth, like he gave David wives?

That's not what I get from reading the scriptures.

[justamere10]

That Diet Pepsi is so very good and regular Coke is ambrosia.....and the others suck bilge water ;)

Guess I was watching the other channel.

Ok, it's a matter of FAITH then. I have faith in my own taste buds, and they PROVE that Pepsi's best! And diet Pepsi's next if you can handle the aftertaste.

[yguy]

Endorse... or allow. It was practiced in the Old Testament nonetheless and God allowed it.He allowed divorce too. Have you forgotten what Christ said about that?Personally, I think it serves an extremely limited purpose and as a practice is too prone to abuse.Seeing how, in the OT, the practice led to disaster every time, it seems to me the only purpose it served was to help destroy Israel.

[yguy]

What nonsense? Please illustrate.Saying God commanded polygamy.

[justamere10]

I was talking to justamere, not you.

She's my friend yguy, let her handle your pointed questions. Anytime now...

[THE LIGHT]

By the way. You do realize that you picked out that snippet from a long post talking about how polygamy is NOT practiced today, nor has it been for over 100 years. And one will be excommunicated from the LDS church if they practice it right?

What is practiced today doesn't matter if the man that you call a prophet endorsed it.

[CALady]

He allowed divorce too. Have you forgotten what Christ said about that?Seeing how, in the OT, the practice led to disaster every time, it seems to me the only purpose it served was to help destroy Israel.

Like T said, how do you equate polygamy and divorce?

As for "practice led to disaster every time" where? David was doing fine with the wives God gave him until he lusted after a woman that had a husband, and killed the husband. God didn't give him THAT wife, and that's how David ended up in trouble.

And, again. I still don't know why your so focused on polygamy? It was not rare in the US at the time, although it was not common. There was no federal law against it.

And again, it has not been practiced in our church for over 100 years.

Why do you keep harping on this topic?

[JenT]

He allowed divorce too. Have you forgotten what Christ said about that?Seeing how, in the OT, the practice led to disaster every time, it seems to me the only purpose it served was to help destroy Israel.

Jacob's dad... he kinda fathered the 12 tribes of Israel...

[THE LIGHT]

Wow... nonsense?

Do you expect me to take you seriously with such an attitude?

Polygamy accounts for about 1/10th of 1 percent of what Joseph Smith was about.

rat poison is about 0.005% poison and 95.995% good food. Read a lable some time.:lol:

I have the advantage of having the entire picture of the restored gospel, unlike you who only want to focus on one small thing that hasn't been part of our church for over 100 years. You realize that polygamy was not rare in the US during the 19th Century, right?

Go with the flow baby!!!

[CALady]

What is practiced today doesn't matter if the man that you call a prophet endorsed it.

So old testament prophets who had multiple wives are invalid prophets?

[JenT]

ooops I mean Jacob, he had multiple wives

I've always wondered why its SO taboo, especially just before my divorce, lol

[CALady]

Jacob's dad... he kinda fathered the 12 tribes of Israel...

Oops... 12 tribes came from polygamy.

So, Light. Does that poison the Old Testament?

[yguy]

Jacob's dad... he kinda fathered the 12 tribes of Israel...And Ruth was a descendant of Moab, so maybe incest isn't all that bad either, huh?

[JenT]

Oops... 12 tribes came from polygamy.

So, Light. Does that poison the Old Testament?

I guess you could argue that's why there was so much strife and jealousy among the brothers, that was kinda disasterous, but God took what was meant for evil and turned it to good...

[justamere10]

What is practiced today doesn't matter if the man that you call a prophet endorsed it.

He "endorsed" it BECAUSE he was a prophet and he KNEW it was God speaking to him. Abraham almost killed his son, because he KNEW it was God commanding him to do so. Noah built the ark because he KNEW it was God commanding him to do so.

That's what prophets do, they listen and OBEY, every time.

The standard measure of truth and righteousness is ANYTHING God the Father or Jesus Christ say and do. Everything those two say or do is OF GOD!

[CALady]

I guess you could argue that's why there was so much strife and jealousy among the brothers, that was kinda disasterous, but God took what was meant for evil and turned it to good...

I don't know. My brothers fought all the time and they had the same mom and dad. ;)

[JenT]

He "endorsed" it BECAUSE he was a prophet and he KNEW it was God speaking to him. Abraham almost killed his son, because he KNEW it was God commanding him to do so. Noah built the ark because he KNEW it was God commanding him to do so.

That's what prophets do, they listen and OBEY, every time.

The standard measure of truth and righteousness is ANYTHING God the Father or Jesus Christ say and do. Everything those two say or do is OF GOD!

Who endorsed it again?

[JenT]

I mean just because they did it doesn't mean they endorsed it

[JenT]

I don't know. My brothers fought all the time and they had the same mom and dad. ;)

he heh, but they didn't throw him in a well and plan to come back and murder him, that was pretty bad

[THE LIGHT]

Oops... 12 tribes came from polygamy.

So, Light. Does that poison the Old Testament?

Not at all!

David may have had multiple wives, but he repented!
Abraham may have had an illegitimate son, but he repented!

They realized their MISTAKE. How about Joseph Smith?

Remember, God had to deal with men that didn't have the Holy Spirit yet. He did the best he could. There is a big difference.

Trivia: which apostle had multiple wives after recieving the Holy Spirit?

[CALady]

I mean just because they did it doesn't mean they endorsed it

Endorsed, or commanded, or allowed. It was for a limited purpose, for limited reasons, for a limited time.

[CALady]

he heh, but they didn't throw him in a well and plan to come back and murder him, that was pretty bad

Well, they didn't kill him because they were jealous, like Cain and Able.

Or cheat him out of his inheritance, like Jacob and Esau.

Same parents.

I don't think sibling rivalry is restricted to children of polygamous families.

[THE LIGHT]

He "endorsed" it BECAUSE he was a prophet and he KNEW it was God speaking to him.

:eek: God endorsed Polygamy??????

[JenT]

Not at all!

David may have had multiple wives, but he repented!
Abraham may have had an illegitimate son, but he repented!

They realized their MISTAKE. How about Joseph Smith?

Remember, God had to deal with men that didn't have the Holy Spirit yet. He did the best he could. There is a big difference.

Trivia: which apostle had multiple wives after recieving the Holy Spirit?

How did David repent? I thought he kept all his wives, don't remember he got divorced or killed them...
David did have a big price to pay for murdering Bathsheba's husband, violence for the rest of his life, strife in the family...

Yeah I agree with that last line, but I really have wondered about polygamy and why it was okay back then. My pastor told me to look at Adam and Eve for the one man one woman part

[CALady]

Not at all!

David may have had multiple wives, but he repented!
Abraham may have had an illegitimate son, but he repented!

Repented of having multiple wives? When? Can you find that verse?

You won't find it.

He repented for commiting murder.

They realized their MISTAKE.

Who? Jacob? David?

Nope.

How about Joseph Smith?

He was obedient to God.

Remember, God had to deal with men that didn't have the Holy Spirit yet. He did the best he could. There is a big difference.

So God didn't have the power to "deal with men"? Was God weak? limited?

I don't think so.

Trivia: which apostle had multiple wives after recieving the Holy Spirit?

[yguy]

David was doing fine with the wives God gave him until he lusted after a woman that had a husband, and killed the husband. God didn't give him THAT wife, and that's how David ended up in trouble.I don't know how you can attribute all the calamity that went on in the house of David to the Bathsheba thing and nothing else. Polygamy had become something of a cultural norm by the time of David, but that was a precedent set by Abraham when he listened to his dingbat wife just as Adam had listened to Eve.Why do you keep harping on this topic?Am I the only one "harping" on it here? ;)

[CALady]

:eek: God endorsed Polygamy??????

Well, God gave David wives when God was happy with David. But it had limits.

And God commanded Joseph Smith that it was required for a limited time, for limited purpose, and limited to a handful of men.

[JenT]

Well, they didn't kill him because they were jealous, like Cain and Able.

Or cheat him out of his inheritance, like Jacob and Esau.

Same parents.

I don't think sibling rivalry is restricted to children of polygamous families.

mmm, I think they did throw him in a well from jealousy just like Cain and Able, and by doing that lol, they did cheat him out of his inheritance

OH I get your point, very true, sibling rivalry wasn't restricted to polygamous families.

Just before my divorce I seriously wished we could have a second wife. I had a great career and small kids, I was being torn in two could have used the help and lol, she coulda "had" the hubby, I was beyond caring.

[CALady]

How did David repent? I thought he kept all his wives, don't remember he got divorced or killed them...
David did have a big price to pay for murdering Bathsheba's husband, violence for the rest of his life, strife in the family...

Yeah I agree with that last line, but I really have wondered about polygamy and why it was okay back then. My pastor told me to look at Adam and Eve for the one man one woman part

So when Adam and Eve had kids, who did their kids have children with?

Just sayin'... ;)

[JenT]

So when Adam and Eve had kids, who did their kids have children with?

Just sayin'... ;)

LOL

I was told it was a pure gene pool. The reason God said we can't now is because the gene pool got corrupted as man sinned more and more I guess. And sure enough, brothers and sisters don't make good matches any more.

[CALady]

I don't know how you can attribute all the calamity that went on in the house of David to the Bathsheba thing and nothing else. Polygamy had become something of a cultural norm by the time of David, but that was a precedent set by Abraham when he listened to his dingbat wife just as Adam had listened to Eve.Am I the only one "harping" on it here? ;)

"I" don't attribute it all to the murder, the Bible does.

[THE LIGHT]

Repented of having multiple wives? When? Can you find that verse?

You won't find it.

He repented for commiting murder.



Who? Jacob? David?

Nope.

Again, God was dealing with man before attonement.


He was obedient to God.

PLLLLLEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEZZZZ:rolleyes:

So God didn't have the power to "deal with men"? Was God weak? limited?

I don't think so

Well, let's just say man has a free will (just currious, do LDS believe that?). God cannot control that.

[justamere10]

:eek: God endorsed Polygamy??????

In the instance we are discussing God commanded Joseph Smith to take multiple wives.

It was extremely difficult for Joseph and the early leaders of the LDS Church to be unfaithful to their wives and children. They did not want to do it. It was a terrible test of their faith in Joseph as a prophet, and in God as their Lord.

Joseph delayed obeying for so long that God finally sent an angel to him with a drawn sword. He was given a choice: Obey or die!

Much later it was the same test and the same deep sadness and confusion when men were required to obey the prophet of the day and abandon their wives and children.

God sees things in a much different way than we do.

In some countries in the world we would not be having this discussion because polygamy is the norm of their society.

[CALady]

LOL

I was told it was a pure gene pool. The reason God said we can't now is because the gene pool got corrupted as man sinned more and more I guess. And sure enough, brothers and sisters don't make good matches any more.

Ah, so incest was ok for a limited time, for a limited purpose, for limited people.

Kinda like polygamy. ;)

[CALady]

Again, God was dealing with man before attonement.

So anyone who lived before the resurrection isn't "atoned" for?

PLLLLLEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEZZZZ:rolleyes:

Yes.

Well, let's just say man has a free will (just currious, do LDS believe that?). God cannot control that.

Absolutely. We believe that man has total free will. That doesn't mean that God's commandments don't apply. It only means we are free to obey or not. If we don't, we face the consequences of our actions.

[JenT]

In the instance we are discussing God commanded Joseph Smith to take multiple wives.

It was extremely difficult for Joseph and the early leaders of the LDS Church to be unfaithful to their wives and children. They did not want to do it. It was a terrible test of their faith in Joseph as a prophet, and in God as their Lord.

Joseph delayed obeying for so long that God finally sent an angel to him with a drawn sword. He was given a choice: Obey or die!

Much later it was the same test and the same deep sadness and confusion when men were required to obey the prophet of the day and abandon their wives and children.

God sees things in a much different way than we do.

In some countries in the world we would not be having this discussion because polygamy is the norm of their society.

Okay lemme get this straight...all those guys said they were finding this hard to do? I can see ONE guy being so drop dead in love with his wife for a while that he would say no FOR A WHILE, but a BUNCH of MEN?

I'm sorry, I gotta be quieter my kids are sleeping! LOLOLOL

[JenT]

Ah, so incest was ok for a limited time, for a limited purpose, for limited people.

Kinda like polygamy. ;)

Hey I'm not defending polygamy, I just always wondered. (and wished at one time) LOL

but yeah, when ya think about it, just about every command has a reason. I think with Adam and Eve brothers and sisters were just fine, gene pool was brand new.

[CALady]

Okay lemme get this straight...all those guys said they were finding this hard to do? I can see ONE guy being so drop dead in love with his wife for a while that he would say no FOR A WHILE, but a BUNCH of MEN?

I'm sorry, I gotta be quieter my kids are sleeping! LOLOLOL

I'm sure that the men who were given this weren't all upset by it. ;)

But it was also a requirement that the wife accept it. If she didn't, the man couldn't take another wife.

[JenT]

by the LIGHT: Well, let's just say man has a free will (just currious, do LDS believe that?). God cannot control that.

Ya think if He wanted to, God couldn't control that?

I'm standing over --------------------------------> there, I hear lightning!

[CALady]

Hey I'm not defending polygamy, I just always wondered. (and wished at one time) LOL

but yeah, when ya think about it, just about every command has a reason. I think with Adam and Eve brothers and sisters were just fine, gene pool was brand new.

I'm not really defending polygamy either. I'm just explaining it. I think it is far too prone to abuse and is why it's not allowed today.

[justamere10]

I don't know how you can attribute all the calamity that went on in the house of David to the Bathsheba thing and nothing else. Polygamy had become something of a cultural norm by the time of David, but that was a precedent set by Abraham when he listened to his dingbat wife just as Adam had listened to Eve.Am I the only one "harping" on it here? ;)

Tonight you're the norm yguy. :-)

[JenT]

I'm sure that the men who were given this weren't all upset by it. ;)

But it was also a requirement that the wife accept it. If she didn't, the man couldn't take another wife.

Yeah but doesn't the wife have to obey the husband? ROFL I can picture this. HONEY! I don't want you to remarry!

Okay hon, now lemme give you your list of chores for today.....

[justamere10]

Just before my divorce I seriously wished we could have a second wife. I had a great career and small kids, I was being torn in two could have used the help and lol, she coulda "had" the hubby, I was beyond caring.

Sorry, must have been bad Jen.

[CALady]

Ya think if He wanted to, God couldn't control that?

I'm standing over --------------------------------> there, I hear lightning!

Good catch! I missed that one.

Certainly we will say God gives man free will.

Nobody wants to be loved by someone forced to love them. We only want to be loved by someone who loves us of their own free will.

[CALady]

Yeah but doesn't the wife have to obey the husband? ROFL I can picture this. HONEY! I don't want you to remarry!

Okay hon, now lemme give you your list of chores for today.....

LOL!

Let me tell you, there are times when another woman around to do laundry and wash dishes would be a blessing... But, I hate having other women in my kitchen. So I guess not. :))

[yguy]

"I" don't attribute it all to the murder, the Bible does.I would suggest that it takes an absurdly literalist interpretation to do so, seeing how the groundwork for the disaster to come had been laid by David's previoius indiscretions. Even had he not messed with Bathsheba, there's no reason to think he'd have had any less family strife than did Jacob.

[THE LIGHT]

So anyone who lived before the resurrection isn't "atoned" for?

Not prior to the resurection, but afterwards they were given a chance to accept.

Absolutely. We believe that man has total free will. That doesn't mean that God's commandments don't apply. It only means we are free to obey or not. If we don't, we face the consequences of our actions.

with that, your question doesn't make sense.

[JenT]

Sorry, must have been bad Jen.

Oh no worries, we're great friends now. And I'm not going down that road again, I've officially joined the Christian nunnery :dance:

[CALady]

I would suggest that it takes an absurdly literalist interpretation to do so, seeing how the groundwork for the disaster to come had been laid by David's previoius indiscretions. Even had he not messed with Bathsheba, there's no reason to think he'd have had any less family strife than did Jacob.

Family stife is not restricted to polygamous families. Keep reading. We already took care of that one.

And David losing favor with God was not "strife". It was his biggest pain, and it was because he committed murder. Not polygamy.

[JenT]

LOL!

Let me tell you, there are times when another woman around to do laundry and wash dishes would be a blessing... But, I hate having other women in my kitchen. So I guess not. :))

Hey it could work. You do all the cooking, I'll do the laundry and everything else. And we'll flip a coin for other... commodities

ROFL!

[CALady]

Not prior to the resurection, but afterwards they were given a chance to accept.



with that, your question doesn't make sense.

What question? You lost me.

[CALady]

Hey it could work. You do all the cooking, I'll do the laundry and everything else. And we'll flip a coin for other... commodities

ROFL!

Fine, as long as you stay out of my kitchen! :)) :))

[JenT]

I would suggest that it takes an absurdly literalist interpretation to do so, seeing how the groundwork for the disaster to come had been laid by David's previoius indiscretions. Even had he not messed with Bathsheba, there's no reason to think he'd have had any less family strife than did Jacob.

I'm pretty sure... I could be wrong but I think God told David he would have family strife and the loss of their firstborn directly because of the murder of Usomething, Bathsheba's husband

And God kept calling him her husband even after that, or Bathsheba his wife, for a long time after

[JenT]

Fine, as long as you stay out of my kitchen! :)) :))

Well will I get to EAT?

This could be a polydiet

[yguy]

Family stife is not restricted to polygamous families.And that is germane because...?
And David losing favor with God was not "strife". It was his biggest painI have no idea what this is supposed to mean.

[JenT]

And that is germane because...?I have no idea what this is supposed to mean.

what does "germane" mean?

[JenT]

no I'm serious I don't know what it means

[justamere10]

Well, let's just say man has a free will (just currious, do LDS believe that?). God cannot control that.

God can do whatever He wants. But it seems that what the LDS call "free agency" the power to choose, is an eternal principal because it was so important in the pre-existence (as per my earlier post) that an entire one third of Father's spirit children were permanently cast out of heaven because they choose to follow Lucifier whose plan was to FORCE all of us back to heaven.

As a general rule, when you see people trying to FORCE others to do things (outside of military and law enforcement of course) it is related to something of Satan.

It may be that the power to choose is mortal man's greatest power. If we did not have free choice we could never be righteously judged. God cannot place eternal consequences on someone for adultery when it was actually rape.

In this life we have an opposition in all things. If it were not so we could not learn good from evil, light from darkness, health from sickness, pleasure from pain etc.

It's a set up. We are forced to make choices. But WHAT we choose is up to us. And we reap the consequences of each choice.

It is our small cumulative choices each day that move us along the spectrum in the direction of good (God) or evil (Satan). With sufficient time those cumulative choices form our personality, and eventually the character that is written in our faces and dictates much of what we do.

The choice is to move closer to being like Jesus Christ, or closer to being like Satan. Good or evil? The potential to be all Good or all Evil is within each of us, we are free to choose where we want to go.

Which direction along the sliding spectrum will your cumulative choices take you today?

[CALady]

II Samuel 12:

7... Thus saith the Lord God of Israel, I anointed thee king over Israel, and I delivered thee out of the hand of Saul;
8 And I gave thee thy master’s house, and thy master’s wives into thy bosom, and gave thee the house of Israel and of Judah; and if that had been too little, I would moreover have given unto thee such and such things.
9 Wherefore hast thou despised the commandment of the Lord, to do evil in his sight? thou hast killed Uriah the Hittite with the sword, and hast taken his wife to be thy wife, and hast slain him with the sword of the children of Ammon.


Literal reading? Or plain reading?

God annointed David and gave him the wives of his master! All was good.

Then David killed Uriah and took his wife, and God was very unhappy.

10 Now therefore the sword shall never depart from thine house; because thou hast despised me, and hast taken the wife of Uriah the Hittite to be thy wife.
11 Thus saith the Lord, Behold, I will raise up evil against thee out of thine own house, and I will take thy wives before thine eyes, and give them unto thy neighbour, and he shall lie with thy wives in the sight of this sun.

Not only did God give "wives" to David, but he then took them and gave the "wives" to the neighbor.

[JenT]

that all sounds great but....

Satan wants to force us back into heaven? Why?

[CALady]

that all sounds great but....

Satan wants to force us back into heaven? Why?

It was about Satan removing our free agency and also Satan taking the glory for himself.

[JenT]

II Samuel 12:

7... Thus saith the Lord God of Israel, I anointed thee king over Israel, and I delivered thee out of the hand of Saul;
8 And I gave thee thy master’s house, and thy master’s wives into thy bosom, and gave thee the house of Israel and of Judah; and if that had been too little, I would moreover have given unto thee such and such things.
9 Wherefore hast thou despised the commandment of the Lord, to do evil in his sight? thou hast killed Uriah the Hittite with the sword, and hast taken his wife to be thy wife, and hast slain him with the sword of the children of Ammon.


Literal reading? Or plain reading?

God annointed David and gave him the wives of his master! All was good.

Then David killed Uriah and took his wife, and God was very unhappy.

10 Now therefore the sword shall never depart from thine house; because thou hast despised me, and hast taken the wife of Uriah the Hittite to be thy wife.
11 Thus saith the Lord, Behold, I will raise up evil against thee out of thine own house, and I will take thy wives before thine eyes, and give them unto thy neighbour, and he shall lie with thy wives in the sight of this sun.

Not only did God give "wives" to David, but he then took them and gave the "wives" to the neighbor.


wow this opens up a whole new market to me...married men! WOW

[CALady]

Today, Satan wants to keep us from heaven.

[JenT]

waitll I tell all the single gals at the office!

[CALady]

wow this opens up a whole new market to me...married men! WOW

Somehow, being a woman in David's time doesn't sound like a good deal.

[JenT]

I'm SERIOUS, lol, I have always wondered why polygamy isn't okay

Doesn't matter for me in the slightest, though, been there done that (marriage not polygamy) I'm happy single...I think I got that gift.

[JenT]

Today, Satan wants to keep us from heaven.

oh okay then that was a snafu back there?

[JenT]

well this has been really fun and I think I'll put ya on my buddy list if ya don't mind. I like to see people I think are funny highlighted in that group thingy, I know whose around.
Gotta get some sleep, thanks so much for a very informative night (but I did forget who was LDS and whose not)

http://bestsmileys.com/religous/5.gif!!!!

[CALady]

oh okay then that was a snafu back there?

Justamere10 was talking about before the earth was created. Long time ago... when Lucifer turned bad and became Satan and the enemy of God.

[CALady]

well this has been really fun and I think I'll put ya on my buddy list if ya don't mind. I like to see people I think are funny highlighted in that group thingy, I know whose around.
Gotta get some sleep, thanks so much for a very informative night (but I did forget who was LDS and whose not)

http://bestsmileys.com/religous/5.gif!!!!

Yeah, it's past my bedtime too.

It's been fun!

[justamere10]

that all sounds great but....

Satan wants to force us back into heaven? Why?

I'm too sleepy right now to find it, but I explained that in an earlier post. God wanted to give us free agency in mortality so He could test and judge us. The by product is because we had freedom to choose good or evil, not all of us would get back to Heaven.

Satan proposed an alternate plan in which he would FORCE all of us to 'choose' only good and therefore none would be lost. And he'd keep the glory for such a great success.

But his plan would have done away with an eternal principle (free agency, the power to choose) and would never have made us like God was and is, which is what we're trying to do, as the LDS see it, to grow up and become like our Father, God.

Jesus asked us to follow him, to do as he did and be as he was, because if we did that, it would be the same as doing it for God the Father and becoming like Him. The two of them, Jesus and God the Father are one in mind and purpose, to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man.

And with that, I'm off for some shut-eye. Thanks everyone for playing in my sandbox today. Good night.

[MobyMule]

I find the polygamy thing funny. It is all about perspective. If you look at how polygamy has been used in the OT did it not always create a people or line that lead to another prophet or important person. If what the LDS teaches is true about a restoration and it is the last dispensation the Lord would need a mechanism to build a foundation of leaders for his Kingdom in a short period of time. Polygamy served its purpose. The LDS church was isolated and given room to sprout roots and secure a foundation for future growth. It was ended by divine revelation just as it was begun to secure the work of the church. Without polygamy the church would not be as strong as it is today. That is a fact. With polygamy it would not exist. There is wisdom in the Lord.

[noelle12]

While polygamy is an interesting topic, and I think it has been covered in some detail here, I have an idea, why don't we go through the 13 Articles of Faith and talk about what is in them.

I'll start.

1. We believe in God, the Eternal Father, and in His Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost.

I don't know how much more I can say about that, it seems pretty self-explanatory to me, but I know that other Christian faiths understand the godhead differently then the LDS church does.

Basically we believe that God the Eternal Father and His Son Jesus Christ are two separate and distinct beings, each with a glorified and perfected body of flesh and bone. We believe the Holy Ghost is a personage of spirit, who acts as a comforter, a teacher, and testifies of the divine mission of Jesus Christ.

[Old Tex]

[quote=justamere10;26708831]

"And it came to pass that after the space of two years that Abinadi came among them in disguise, that they knew him not, and began to prophesy (mhtml:{09272DBB-5804-4926-A7B0-C39813AD4444}mid://00000585/!x-usc:http://scriptures.lds.org/en/mosiah/12/1a) among them, saying: Thus has the Lord commanded me, saying—Abinadi, go and prophesy unto this my people, for they have hardened their hearts against my words;..... [/qoute]

Abinadi had been among them in disguise for two years before the lord told him to give them His message for them. At that point Abinadi revealed his true identity to them. If we read the two verses before the one quoted above it tell why Abinadi went "undercover" to begin with.

28 I command you to bring Abinadi hither, that I may slay him, for he has said these things that he might astir (http://scriptures.lds.org/en/mosiah/mosiah/11/28a) up my people to anger one with another, and to raise contentions among my people; therefore I will slay him.

29 Now the eyes of the people were ablinded (http://scriptures.lds.org/en/mosiah/mosiah/11/29a); therefore they bhardened (http://scriptures.lds.org/en/mosiah/mosiah/11/29b) their hearts against the words of Abinadi, and they sought from that time forward to take him. And king Noah hardened his heart against the word of the Lord, and he did not repent of his evil doings. (Mosiah Chapter 11:28-29)

[noelle12]

[quote=justamere10;26708831]

"And it came to pass that after the space of two years that Abinadi came among them in disguise, that they knew him not, and began to prophesy (mhtml:{09272DBB-5804-4926-A7B0-C39813AD4444}mid://00000585/!x-usc:http://scriptures.lds.org/en/mosiah/12/1a) among them, saying: Thus has the Lord commanded me, saying—Abinadi, go and prophesy unto this my people, for they have hardened their hearts against my words;..... [/qoute]

Abinadi had been among them in disguise for two years before the lord told him to give them His message for them. At that point Abinadi revealed his true identity to them. If we read the two verses before the one quoted above it tell why Abinadi went "undercover" to begin with.

28 I command you to bring Abinadi hither, that I may slay him, for he has said these things that he might astir (http://scriptures.lds.org/en/mosiah/mosiah/11/28a) up my people to anger one with another, and to raise contentions among my people; therefore I will slay him.

29 Now the eyes of the people were ablinded (http://scriptures.lds.org/en/mosiah/mosiah/11/29a); therefore they bhardened (http://scriptures.lds.org/en/mosiah/mosiah/11/29b) their hearts against the words of Abinadi, and they sought from that time forward to take him. And king Noah hardened his heart against the word of the Lord, and he did not repent of his evil doings. (Mosiah Chapter 11:28-29)

Ahhh! I see that now. It makes sense. Good answer!

[yguy]

Somehow, being a woman in David's time doesn't sound like a good deal.All was good.Make up your mind, already. ;)

[justamere10]

well this has been really fun and I think I'll put ya on my buddy list if ya don't mind. Gotta get some sleep, thanks so much for a very informative night (but I did forget who was LDS and whose not)




I think you will find that the more you interact with and get your information about what Mormons believe from active informed Mormons and official LDS websites, that we are taking little away from your current beliefs.

Mormons believe that we are now in the prophesied FULNESS of times, that God has restored His original Church on earth and it is led again by apostles and prophets, as it was anciently.

We are not being conceited when we declare that we believe the Saints are commissioned of God to help move His children closer to Him than they have ever been moved before. Some of us think of it like the difference between grade school and university. When you go to university you don't suddenly find out everything you learned in school was wrong. Instead, what you already know is enriched and added upon. LDS temples, we believe, are the doorways to heaven, God's universities if you will.

Ask only active informed Mormons and official LDS websites what Mormons believe.

Everybody else gets it wrong...


"For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in." Romans 11: 25

http://scriptures.lds.org/en/rom/11/25#25 (mhtml:{09272DBB-5804-4926-A7B0-C39813AD4444}mid://00000506/!x-usc:http://scriptures.lds.org/en/rom/11/25#25)


"That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:" Ephesians 1: 10

http://scriptures.lds.org/en/eph/1/10#10 (http://scriptures.lds.org/en/eph/1/10#10)

-

[justamere10]

Make up your mind, already. ;)

Mornin yguy, thanks for joining with us in our sandbox last night, a good time was had by all.

[Old Tex]

because he (Joseph Smith) said so.:D

Perhaps, but if one really wants to seriously find out, it will involve sincere prayer and a witness from the Holy Ghost who reveals all truth.

[justamere10]

"And it came to pass that after the space of two years that Abinadi came among them in disguise, that they knew him not, and began to prophesy among them, saying: Thus has the Lord commanded me, saying—Abinadi, go and prophesy unto this my people, for they have hardened their hearts against my words;.....

Abinadi had been among them in disguise for two years before the lord told him to give them His message for them. At that point Abinadi revealed his true identity to them. If we read the two verses before the one quoted above it tell why Abinadi went "undercover" to begin with.

28 I command you to bring Abinadi hither, that I may slay him, for he has said these things that he might stor up my people to anger one with another, and to raise contentions among my people; therefore I will slay him.

29 Now the eyes of the people were blinded; therefore they hardened their hearts against the words of Abinadi, and they sought from that time forward to take him. And king Noah hardened his heart against the word of the Lord, and he did not repent of his evil doings. (Mosiah Chapter 11:28-29)

I'm not chuckling anymore. Thanks for opening my eyes on that one. Shoulda known the prophets would get it right. :-)

[yguy]

what does "germane" mean?Relevant to the matter under discussion.

Next time, google it yourself. ;)

[Old Tex]

So you believe it because it's part of the Mormon catechism, and you want, for whatever reason, to be/remain a Mormon. Is that accurate?

"Mormons" don't operate on catechisms amd repeating prayers over and over. They read the scriptures, pray for a witness from the Holy Ghost, and pay attention to the living Apostles and Prophets.

Welcome yguy. I hope you hang around to pick up a few things from us "Mormons" that you didn't know before.

[HokieCougarVandal]

So anyone who lived before the resurrection isn't "atoned" for?
Not prior to the resurection, but afterwards they were given a chance to accept.
I thought that once your dead ... that's it. How is it then possible for the dead to accept? Please eloborate.

[Old Tex]

Don't worry, most of the mods happen to be LDS.:angel:

Not so. Only one.

[yguy]

"Mormons" don't operate on catechisms amd repeating prayers over and over.cat·e·chism (kăt'ĭ-kĭz'əm) pronunciation
n.

1. A book giving a brief summary of the basic principles of Christianity in question-and-answer form.
2. A manual giving basic instruction in a subject, usually by rote or repetition.
3. A body of fundamental principles or beliefs, especially when accepted uncritically: “the core of the catechism of the antinuclear left, the notion that the threat to peace is technological, not political” (George F. Will).


#3 is what I meant.

They... pay attention to the living Apostles and Prophets.How do you know who they are?

[Old Tex]

Nah, the Church works with Diet Pepsi and Regular Coke.....Pepsi, and Diet Coke are Satan's tools...;)

I go for diet Dr. Pepper. It does not have the ickey bitter after taste.

[RayMan]

I go for diet Dr. Pepper. It does not have the ickey bitter after taste.

Is 'the Dew" sanctified?

[Old Tex]

Welcome to ask pointed questions and be treated to evasions from you?

Gee, thanks. :)


Sometimes short answers do not really address the question if the inquirer does not have the background to grasp the answer, and the one who gives the answer is not prepared to give background.

[jmacvols]

-


Ask a Mormon


In this thread you are invited to interact with justamere10, an active well-informed Mormon, and other Mormons. You are invited to ask any questions you may have about the religious beliefs and practices of the Mormons.

Other of my LDS friends may disagree, but it is my personal belief that a huge amount of misinformation about what Mormons believe is in circulation. It is my contention that behind that misinformation is a lucrative anti-Mormon publishing industry. That industry includes publishers, writers, creators of media, and sellers/distributors of books, pamphlets, DVD's etc. that contradict, belittle, or misrepresent Mormon beliefs.

Distributors of information from that industry, I believe, include some paid ministers of religion whose income, authority, and status is threatened when members of their flock switch to another denomination. Within some denominations members of the Church of JESUS CHRIST have even been accused of not being Christians! Apparently some scholars and leaders have created and preached an unbiblical definition of "Christianity" that tends to exclude the Mormons from Christian fellowship.

It is my hope to help dispel some of that misunderstanding and consequent enmity and division among fellow followers of Jesus Christ. I believe that we are in a dangerous time when all Christians in America face a common enemy. The enemy is the secular progressive agenda to do away with Christian values in America, and terrorists who maim and kill in the name of god and religion. I believe it essential that ALL followers of Jesus Christ unite against that foe. Hopefully this thread will lead to a better understanding of what it is the Mormons really believe, and thus eventually a better union in a common cause.

In this thread I will refer to members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, a 13,000,000 member fast-growing worldwide church headquartered in Salt Lake City, Utah as "Mormons", "Latter-day Saints", "LDS", or "Saints".

I believe that one way for Mormons such as myself to get the truth out about our religious beliefs is to speak up in non-LDS venues such as this discussion board. I am aware that LDS beliefs are often emotionally put down by people and groups who have been exposed only to untrue teachings about the Mormons. Thus a high level of moderation in discussions about the Mormons is required, and hopefully will be evident in this thread as it was in my earlier thread titled: "If Catholics are wrong, are Protestants too?"

http://forums.hannity.com/showthread.php?t=643801 (http://forums.hannity.com/showthread.php?t=643801)


I cannot speak for the LDS Church and I don't claim to know everything there is to know about the Mormons. But I will always write the truth as I understand it. Other Latter-day Saints may wish to add their own points of view or expand on what I write, I hope they do. I believe that I can quite accurately represent the beliefs of many active mainstream Mormons.

In this thread I and other Latter-day Saints WILL refer to the entire canon of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints to help others better understand our beliefs.

It is acceptable to contrast LDS beliefs with yours, and to expound on the meaning of scripture. I expect a lively discussion in which posters of all denominations actively but respectfully defend the things they believe to be true. It is not my intention to try to convert anyone, but we do have a few vacancies if anyone becomes interested. :-) It may take you a year or two to make bishop though...

I have been a faithful member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints for 40 years, having converted from Roman Catholicism at age 22. I have been in thousands of LDS meetings of all kinds, attended temples in many countries, served a foreign mission, listened to other Mormons talk, rubbed shoulders with Mormons, live among Mormons, watch what they do, met Mormon prophets, apostles and general authorities, read books, studied scriptures, and been a lay minister and Melchizedek Priesthood holder for decades.


I KNOW the Mormons!

If they were not of God, I would not be one of them...



You are invited to

ASK A MORMON



-

Do you practice the """everlasting""" covenant of polygamy?
If so, can you remember all your wives names and anniversaries? :)

[yguy]

Sometimes short answers...That post was directed at someone who was giving no answers at all.

[Old Tex]

I don't doubt any of that. What I'm questioning is how you're able to justify calling a man who spouts such nonsense a prophet.

Spend a few minites on mormon.org and perhaps you will come closer to seeing.

[justamere10]

I thought that once your dead ... that's it. How is it then possible for the dead to accept? Please eloborate.



I think most Christians accept that there is a 'ghost in the machine', a 'soul' or spirit inside our physical bodies. The spirit, like a hand inside a glove, animates the physical body and integrates all its myriad living parts. Without that spirit the physical body loses its ability to move and dis integrates.

Mormons believe that the spirit that animates our body came from God who created it in his image and likeness.

At the death of the physical body the spirit leaves and goes to a world of spirits, the physical body goes to the grave.

Mormons believe that there are two divisions in that postmortal spirit world: spirit paradise, and spirit prison.

A temporary judgment is made by higher beings, ourselves, or God himself at death (I don't know which) and assignments are made to one or the other division of the spirit world. Assignments are based on the level of goodness or evil that we take with us from the choices we made during our mortal days on earth.

Within each of those spirit worlds life continues similar to on earth, except we don't need to eat, comb our hair etc. because we once again are only spirit bodies.

Since the atonement and resurrection of Jesus Christ the gap between those two spirit worlds has been bridged and messengers from paradise cross over and minister to those in prison.

Freedom to choose is an eternal principle, spirits in prison can still accept the gospel message they may never have heard on earth. When essential ordinances such as baptism that can only be done on earth take place by proxy in holy temples on earth, that spirit can choose to accept or reject the gospel.

If they accept, they are ready to enter the world of paradise and my guess is that they are escorted over the bridge and live in a state of happiness and learning with their families and loved ones who made better choices during mortality.

The spirit worlds are only temporary, there's much more to the rest of the story. If you're interested, ask a Mormon. :-)

[coMITTed]

The spirit worlds are only temporary, there's much more to the rest of the story. If you're interested, ask a Mormon. :-)

Um, Hokie is a Mormon :lol:

Some of our responses probably aren't very fair b/c you, being newer to the boards, don't know yet who's LDS and who's not. I'll just say that prior to the polygamy tangent, most of the questions posted thusfar have been presented by your fellow brothers and sisters. :mrgreen:

[justamere10]

Do you practice the """everlasting""" covenant of polygamy?
If so, can you remember all your wives names and anniversaries? :)

Personally I'm still ok remembering my wife's name, but mine and our anniversary are another matter. :-)

On polygamy, if you're serious, (I can't see the detail in those little smilies) you're going to have to elaborate. I don't think I am familiar with such a concept, at least not the way you strung those words together.

[justamere10]

Um, Hokie is a Mormon :lol:

Some of our responses probably aren't very fair b/c you, being newer to the boards, don't know yet who's LDS and who's not. I'll just say that prior to the polygamy tangent, most of the questions posted thusfar have been presented by your fellow brothers and sisters. :mrgreen:

It matters not who writes the counterpoint, it gives me an opportunity to, ahem, discourse at length on some subject. :-)

[Reeder]

Um, Hokie is a Mormon :lol:

Some of our responses probably aren't very fair b/c you, being newer to the boards, don't know yet who's LDS and who's not. I'll just say that prior to the polygamy tangent, most of the questions posted thusfar have been presented by your fellow brothers and sisters. :mrgreen:

I just sent justamere a PM with a list of LDS posters on these forums (atleast the ones I can think of). Hopefully that gets you up to speed justamere.

[RayMan]

I just sent justamere a PM with a list of LDS posters on these forums (atleast the ones I can think of). Hopefully that gets you up to speed justamere.


Spoilsport. I was enjoying seeing justa getting taken in by those guys...:D

[yguy]

Spend a few minites on mormon.org and perhaps you will come closer to seeing.Look: if you believe Smith was a prophet, than either polygamy was sanctioned by God at some point during his lifetime, or he was a liar.

If you believe the first, where on that site will I find a case made for God's approval of polygamy other than that being made here on the strength of one verse in the OT which was clearly not intended to make any pronouncement on the subject?

And if not, where on that site will I find the justification for calling a liar a prophet?

[RayMan]

And if not, where on that site will I find the justification for calling a liar a prophet?

This could be considered "bad form" in the RF.

Cheers.

[Tucson Jim]

Of course, we're quite familiar with those verses. However, what they say may or may not be "clear" depending on several things.

No need for fangs and claws CALady - I just asked a question.

"The Beginning" of what? The earth? Did anything exist before the earth?

Was everything made? Or were some things not made but existed before the earth was made?

Made from what? Nothing? Something?

If you have Jesus creating Satan, then did Jesus create evil?

So, no. It's not really all that "clear".

Where did I say "clear"?

[Tucson Jim]

Well, we know that Jesus didn't create God the Father, nor did he create evil or sin, nor did he create my physical body.

"All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made."

Your physical body is part of the creation, is it not?


Mormons do believe that it was Jesus Christ, acting under Heavenly Father's direction, who created "all things" such as this planet, moon, sun, etc. But it was Heavenly Father who created our spirit bodies, including that of Jesus and Lucifer.

That would appear to contradict the verses I cited.

I can't begin to imagine Jesus creating his own brother. (See my earlier post on that matter.) Nor do I believe that Jesus Christ created me, also his brother in the spirit creation, or you. That was done by our Heavenly Father.

The question, to me, is not what we can imagine, but what the Bible says actually happened.

And it says Jesus created all things. That would include Lucifer, I believe.

[yguy]

This could be considered "bad form" in the RF.

Cheers.Because...?

[RayMan]

Because...?

The "liar" bit. Might be fine with the Mods. Might not. Just wanted to give you a heads up.

[JenT]

Perhaps, but if one really wants to seriously find out, it will involve sincere prayer and a witness from the Holy Ghost who reveals all truth.

I did that Old Tex, when some witnesses came to my door I knew I could look for stuff about it but I said, God, please show me.

In the book of Mormon, (first page?)

I, Nephi, having been born of goodly parents, therefore I was taught somewhat in all the learning of my father; and having seen many afflictions in the course of my days, nevertheless, having been highly favored of the Lord in all my days; yea, having had a great knowledge of the goodness and the mysteries of God, therefore I make a record of my proceedings in my days.
I have never heard a prophet of God introduce himself in such a way in the Bible. Is there one?

[LeroyBrown]

Is it true that the whole rumor about "secret magic underwear" was created by the LDS as a diversionary tactic so that we wouldn't find out the truth: That the "secret magic underwear" is actually a superhero costume which bestows upon its wearer super powers such as inspiring chin and bulletproof hair?



Sans said Underwear (http://www.proof7.com/p7nyc/images/469px-Mike_Huckabee_speaking_at_HealthierUS_Summit-thumb.jpg)

With said Underwear (http://myclob.pbwiki.com/f/mitt_romney.jpeg)

[noelle12]

Look: if you believe Smith was a prophet, than either polygamy was sanctioned by God at some point during his lifetime, or he was a liar.

If you believe the first, where on that site will I find a case made for God's approval of polygamy other than that being made here on the strength of one verse in the OT which was clearly not intended to make any pronouncement on the subject?

And if not, where on that site will I find the justification for calling a liar a prophet?

I believe Joseph Smith was a prophet, and that polygamy was sanctioned by God to be practiced for a limited time. The Old Testament contains the writings of the prophets before the birth of Jesus Christ. A verse in the Old Testament is not a saction for polygamy to be practiced today. As I said before, I believe Joseph Smith was a prophet, and during his lifetime and for some time afterward polygamy was sanctioned, then the practice was ended, also by revelation in 1890. Admittedly there were and are some who did not want to see it end, and therefore left the LDS church, but I cannot speak for them.

I hope that I was able to help a little to answer your question.

I would like to add that if you are sincerely interested in reading what the LDS prophet(s) say you can read many of their discourses on LDS.org, and after reading what they say, and praying about it, you can determine if they are liars. I have spent my entire life listening to the words of the prophets, and I can testify that they speak the truth, and teach anyone who wants to listen and learn.

[JenT]

Relevant to the matter under discussion.

Next time, google it yourself. ;)

Ha! I was tired last night, and I figured one of you stalwart men wouldn't mind just tellin me, (sigh) guess I was wrong...

[justamere10]

Open Message to the LDS Community on this Board

Perhaps I'm wrong in thinking that way because interactivity is the vital substance of discussion boards. But I fancy with this thread, that we are creating a more or less permanent record on this board, of the things Latter-day Saints believe.

That way we don't need to rehash everything over and over again, just point back to a pertinent post number. And newbies and lurkers can learn at any time what we were teaching earlier and get the tone of the thread without having to expose themselves.

Hopefully we can keep this thread on the front page for a long time. There's a lot of interest in Mormons right now because of Mitt Romney. And there always will be as long as the auntie sites and certain pastors paint us with horns. Some people are fascinated with horns and might look us up for a closer peek. :-)

Especially since the Brethren started asking us to participate in online discussions to tell it the way we really believe our beliefs to be, I used to think of myself as a "Word Warrior" in the ongoing war of words that began in the pre-existence.

And that was so on some other boards where I felt I was a lone lamb in the midst of ravening wolves who had supped only at the anti-Mormon table and had acquired an insatiable taste for raw horn. Sometimes even admins and mods packed in, each vying with the other to see who could rush in from behind and grab the biggest bite out of a Mormon.

You may have seen that movie.

So imagine my joy the last few days to discover this civilized board with real moderators and intelligent respectful discussion. It was like I'd been a missionary in the darkest part of spirit prison and had been granted R&R on the other side of the bridge.

But now, on this board, among these magnificent mods and members and the LDS community, I've turned my Word Warrior badge over and the other side reads: "Teacher of Righteousness".

Please join with me to keep this thread on the front page at least forever, teaching always only truth and righteousness, love and respect for everyone, and eternal gratitude for our great redeemer Jesus Christ - the things Latter-day Saints REALLY believe.

(Interspersed of course with much occasional discussion on all things cornbread.)

.

[JenT]

Is it true that the whole rumor about "secret magic underwear" ...[edited for respect cuz I think this is a joke?]a diversionary tactic so that we wouldn't find out the truth: That the "secret magic underwear" is actually a superhero costume which bestows upon its wearer super powers such as inspiring chin and bulletproof hair?

I never heard of this stuff but Rayman comes to mind

:)

(((Rayman))) love ya hon

[orbitaldecay]

Please join with me to keep this thread on the front page at least forever, teaching always only truth and righteousness, love and respect for everyone, and eternal gratitude for our great redeemer Jesus Christ - the things Latter-day Saints REALLY believe.

(Interspersed of course with much occasional discussion on all things cornbread.)

.

I have a feeling that even this topic gets second paged, that LDS topics will still come up and there will be LDS posters to defend the church.