Ask a Mormon

[THE LIGHT]

The Light didn't hear about sex in heaven from the Mormons either! I don't know where that one came from...

Is it not true that Mormons believe that they will eternally produce spirit children?

[THE LIGHT]

I wish you people quoting each other would use the right combination of quote brackets. How am I supposed to keep straight who said what?

changed mine hope that helps.:angel:

[basilisk]

changed mine hope that helps.:angel:
Oh, yes, thank you. Everyone quoting you will now be okay, hopefully.

[outdamyboat]

Glad everyone is staying on topic. :-)

The ADHD really kicks in this time of day...and the impulsivity really increases. :angel:

One poster gets started and the whole rest of them chime in...they just lose all sensibility...especially w/ this cornbread thing.

And, then if someone even half-way mentions the s_ _ word...forget it! You probably have lost them for hours!!!

[justamere10]

Is it not true that Mormons believe that they will eternally produce spirit children?

No, that is not our belief in its entirety. My guess is that many Mormons will not partake of the fulness of the blessings available in the temples of God on earth today. Or if they do, they will not endure to the end in valiantly keeping the sacred covenants they make with God.

But many will get their exaltation and will be able to create spirit bodies for their own spirit children.

Only those who are exalted will know how to do that.

It is mere speculation to say that sex as we know it on earth is the way our Heavenly Father created our spirit bodies.

[justamere10]

The ADHD really kicks in this time of day...and the impulsivity really increases. :angel:

One poster gets started and the whole rest of them chime in...they just lose all sensibility...especially w/ this cornbread thing.

And, then if someone even half-way mentions the s_ _ word...forget it! You probably have lost them for hours!!!

I think I'm beginning to understand, thanks. :-)

[outdamyboat]

Do LDS have Church-wide doctrinal teachings on birth control and abortion?

Are they more like Catholics or Evangelicals on these issues? ie: Catholics have doctrines that MUST be followed; Evangelicals have strong varying opinions but not 'MUST BE's 'for many B.C. and abortion situations.

[noelle12]

Do LDS have Church-wide doctrinal teachings on birth control and abortion?

Are they more like Catholics or Evangelicals on these issues? ie: Catholics have doctrines that MUST be followed; Evangelicals have strong varying opinions but not 'MUST BE's 'for many B.C. and abortion situations.

Regarding birth control, it is a private decision between the husband, wife and the Lord. Regarding abortion, the official doctrine is quoted here (from LDS.org)

Abortion

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints believes in the sanctity of human life. Therefore, the Church opposes elective abortion for personal or social convenience, and counsels its members not to submit to, perform, encourage, pay for, or arrange for such abortions.

The Church allows for possible exceptions for its members when:

• Pregnancy results from rape or incest, or

• A competent physician determines that the life or health of the mother is in serious jeopardy, or

• A competent physician determines that the fetus has severe defects that will not allow the baby to survive beyond birth.

The Church teaches its members that even these rare exceptions do not justify abortion automatically. Abortion is a most serious matter and should be considered only after the persons involved have consulted with their local church leaders and feel through personal prayer that their decision is correct.

The Church has not favored or opposed legislative proposals or public demonstrations concerning abortion.

[noelle12]

Here is the official LDS church position regarding birth control (also from LDS.org)


Birth Control

Children are one of the greatest blessings in life, and their birth into loving and nurturing families is central to God’s purposes for humanity. When husband and wife are physically able, they have the privilege and responsibility to bring children into the world and to nurture them. The decision of how many children to have and when to have them is a private matter for the husband and wife.

[outdamyboat]

Regarding birth control, it is a private decision between the husband, wife and the Lord. Regarding abortion, the official doctrine is quoted here (from LDS.org)

A competent physician would, if available, be a member of the LDS in most cases?

[noelle12]

A competent physician would, if available, be a member of the LDS in most cases?

Not necessarily. My physician is not a member of the LDS church, and there are a lot of LDS people in the community where I live. I just happen to have a doctor who is not LDS. I have 1 daughter who came to our family through adoption, so my situation may be a little different than some, but I would say that I cannot imagine a scenario where I would ever have an abortion. It is completely against everything I believe.

[outdamyboat]

Not necessarily. My physician is not a member of the LDS church.

I'm sorry, I wasn't clear. If available, and one was pregnant with a serious medically deformed child would a LDS try to seek out a LDS physician? I think I would.

[justamere10]

Do LDS have Church-wide doctrinal teachings on birth control and abortion?

Are they more like Catholics or Evangelicals on these issues? ie: Catholics have doctrines that MUST be followed; Evangelicals have strong varying opinions but not 'MUST BE's 'for many B.C. and abortion situations.

"Must be's" are pretty much a no-no in the LDS Church, as they are when you really get down to it in all churches in all nations where guns are not put to your head to force you to accept a state church and its doctrine.

Everyone has choices to make, including choices about doctrines and the level of compliance or rejection. In the USA we enjoy freedom of religion and can change to any denomination that will accept us, or none at all at anytime.

There are of course consequences to every choice we make. In America the ultimate penalty a church can impose is excommunication. But of course as we make choices regarding God's commandments there are eternal consequences, a judgment awaiting each of us.

Young married Latter-day Saints are encouraged to have children. Birth control is a matter of individual conscience, between the couple and God. Generally it is likely that most Latter-day Saint couples today use a form of birth control.

I am personally opposed to abortion except to save the mother's life. But as I recall, the official stand of the LDS Church is that plus cases of rape or (I think) incest.

Local bishops are considered to be "judges in Israel" and are expected to excercise wisdom and discernment when counselling their flock. But they are backed up by paid professional LDS Social Services counsellors if needed.

[noelle12]

I'm sorry, I wasn't clear. If available, and one was pregnant with a serious medically deformed child would a LDS try to seek out a LDS physician? I think I would.

That would be a private decision. The church would not compel you in any way, but if you felt more comfortable with an LDS doctor to help you, that is also totally fine.

[basilisk]

I'm sorry, I wasn't clear. If available, and one was pregnant with a serious medically deformed child would a LDS try to seek out a LDS physician? I think I would.
I wouldn't. I would seek the most competent physician I could find without regard for his/her personal religious beliefs. I make my own health care decisions, and that's the way my wife and I approach health care. Everyone should do so. It makes the physician's job easier.

I work in health care and have for the last decade or so.

[Portia]

Deathbed confession? Before or after losing consciousness? :-)

My wife owns a house John Wayne once lived in while filming a movie. When she got it there was a real long bed in the basement and rumor is it was the one used by John. But a few months later I found an old box in the attic with letters that led me to a former owner. He told me he had made the bed for his tall son.

Oh well, it was a good story until truth intruded, as it sometimes does. Stick around, you might learn some truth about the Latter-day Saints.

No. As stated by CatholicDefender, it was a conversion, which he had in fact contemplated for some time. I had the privilege of speaking with Mr. Wayne during the last month's of his life and knew several of his friends and a couple of his children. He was a fine man, and your belittling his spiritual conversion is frankly offensive. All his children and I think all of his grandchildren are Catholic. One of his best friends, Maureen O'Hara, was a devout Catholic. Undoubtedly he received the Last Rites which may or may not have included confession.

[outdamyboat]

Not necessarily. My physician is not a member of the LDS church, and there are a lot of LDS people in the community where I live. I just happen to have a doctor who is not LDS. I have 1 daughter who came to our family through adoption, so my situation may be a little different than some, but I would say that I cannot imagine a scenario where I would ever have an abortion. It is completely against everything I believe.

I agree, I could not have an abortion (although I'm past that life stage...waiting for grandchildren..when my girls marry). I just pray that my friends, church members, and children would never have to make such a decison, and I thank God that I was never in such a heart-breaking situation.

[Hadassah]

The ADHD really kicks in this time of day...and the impulsivity really increases. :angel:

One poster gets started and the whole rest of them chime in...they just lose all sensibility...especially w/ this cornbread thing.

And, then if someone even half-way mentions the s_ _ word...forget it! You probably have lost them for hours!!!

ADHD? I resemble that remark....really, I do. Honestly.




Um, what are we talking about? Gotta go clean, and run, and be busy busy busy.....ack!!!!

:))

[basilisk]

I agree, I could not have an abortion (although I'm past that life stage...waiting for grandchildren..when my girls marry). I just pray that my friends, church members, and children would never have to make such a decison, and I thank God that I was never in such a heart-breaking situation.
Amen to that.

[Reeder]

I agree, I could not have an abortion (although I'm past that life stage...waiting for grandchildren..when my girls marry). I just pray that my friends, church members, and children would never have to make such a decison, and I thank God that I was never in such a heart-breaking situation.
+1

[noelle12]

I agree, I could not have an abortion (although I'm past that life stage...waiting for grandchildren..when my girls marry). I just pray that my friends, church members, and children would never have to make such a decision, and I thank God that I was never in such a heart-breaking situation.

I agree with you 100% on that!

[Old Tex]

[quote=THE LIGHT;27046161]

(Sitting here impressed by The Light's use of scripture but at the same time :)) can't help it, I think he's jealous, never heard any denom gettin sex in heaven 'cept the 40 virgin thing)

It's something that he's picked from the anti sites. It's for what shock value it might contain for whoever hears it.

[Portia]

Ah, so you must be one of those ex-Mormon, ex-IT guys that still has the password to the server that contains the church's "actual" growth rate. How can such a claim be taken seriously? Would you like to go ahead and tell me what I "actually" believe, where I "actually" work, and what kind of car I "actually" drive? In my eyes, even after two posts you've already lost almost all credibility. (not that it probably matters to you either way)

What an interesting logical progression. The information about the size of the Mormon church, its estimated active members and its growth can be found on the internet. What you drive and where you work? What has that to do with the size of the Mormon church.

The following site has a compilation of several articles concerning your church's growth and include some from church-owned publications: http://www.mormoncurtain.com/topic_mormonmembership.html

As regards the size of the Mormon church compared to other world religions, please see the following: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Major_religious_groups As you can see, even using Mormonism's inflated membership records, it is a rather insignificant number comparatively speaking.

BTW, I left the Mormon church 40 years ago; have lived on the East Coast for that amount of time and never encountered a Mormon except for a few Members of Congress from Idaho, Utah and Arizona. With the advent of the internet, it occured to me that I could probably find out what went on in the secret ceremonies in the Temple. I was beyond shocked and it lead to a reading binge about the Mormon church. During my own research, I called Mr. Dodge in Salt Lake City to see if my name were still on the records. Except for two funerals, I hadn't stepped foot in a Mormon church for 40 years, but I was still listed as a member. You wouldn't believe the time and effort it took to get my name removed from those records, and there are thousands of people who don't take the time. If anyone is interested in learning about ex-Mormons and the reasons why they left the Mormon church, they can talk to some at exmormon.org or postmormon.org. There's also some good information available on wikipedia.

In regards to my credibility, I also think that taking the word of an unknown stranger about anything would be foolish, and in this case, it's very easy to find information which seriously challenges the claims of Mormons. I noticed that the specific issues I raised concerning the baptism of Jews who died in the Holocaust and the futility of trying to baptise all of the world's citizens from the beginning of time were ignored. The Mormon response was name calling and impugning my motives and character and an amazing reading of my mind. Personal attacks in a formal debate is an automatic loss for the attacker.

As to what you believe, all any of us can do is refer to the writings and speeches of your prophets, and what interesting reading that is! For example, from the Mormon founder, Joseph Smith: "Come on! ye prosecutors! ye false swearers! All hell, boil over! Ye burning mountains, roll down your lava! for I will come out on top at last. I have more to boast of than ever any man had. I am the only man that has ever been able to keep a whole church together since the days of Adam. A large majority of the whole have stood by me. Neither Paul, John, Peter, nor Jesus ever did it. I boast that no man ever did such a work as I. The followers of Jesus ran away from Him; but the Latter-day Saints never ran away from me yet...When they can get rid of me, the devil will also go." (History of the Church, Vol. 6, p. 408, 409)

[justamere10]

No. As stated by CatholicDefender, it was a conversion, which he had in fact contemplated for some time. I had the privilege of speaking with Mr. Wayne during the last month's of his life and knew several of his friends and a couple of his children. He was a fine man, and your belittling his spiritual conversion is frankly offensive. All his children and I think all of his grandchildren are Catholic. One of his best friends, Maureen O'Hara, was a devout Catholic. Undoubtedly he received the Last Rites which may or may not have included confession.


No offense intended, God rest his soul.

[justamere10]

....BTW, I left the Mormon church 40 years ago;

For those who have left the LDS Church there is a way back to faith and fellowship with their former brothers and sisters. It's the way of repentance. But it's very difficult for most, because they'd have to again keep the commandments and covenants they made with God.

This thread is a place where people can come and learn from faithful active Mormons what Mormons really believe. They will NEVER learn that from our apostates and enemies.

As I wrote earlier today:

I personally think it is much more valid to ask faithful informed Mormons what Mormons believe, ask Baptists what Baptists believe, Pentecostals about their beliefs, Catholics about theirs etc. than to go to the websites or spokespersons of their apostates and enemies.

I invite all who want to know what Mormons really believe to read and ask questions of the active informed LDS writing in this thread and/or to anonymously browse at an official LDS website such as:


http://www.mormon.org (http://www.mormon.org)


.

[Reeder]

What an interesting logical progression. The information about the size of the Mormon church, its estimated active members and its growth can be found on the internet. What you drive and where you work? What has that to do with the size of the Mormon church.

Its called "making a point." Thanks for understanding.


The following site has a compilation of several articles concerning your church's growth and include some from church-owned publications: http://www.mormoncurtain.com/topic_mormonmembership.html

As regards the size of the Mormon church compared to other world religions, please see the following: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Major_religious_groups As you can see, even using Mormonism's inflated membership records, it is a rather insignificant number comparatively speaking.

I honestly don't care. What do "numbers" have anything to do with truth? Are you saying that the more people that believe in something or practice something makes that "something" right? Sorry, I don't follow that logic.


BTW, I left the Mormon church 40 years ago; have lived on the East Coast for that amount of time and never encountered a Mormon except for a few Members of Congress from Idaho, Utah and Arizona.

Yes, it occurred to me that you might be an ex-member of the LDS church.


With the advent of the internet, it occured to me that I could probably find out what went on in the secret ceremonies in the Temple. I was beyond shocked and it lead to a reading binge about the Mormon church. During my own research, I called Mr. Dodge in Salt Lake City to see if my name were still on the records. Except for two funerals, I hadn't stepped foot in a Mormon church for 40 years, but I was still listed as a member. You wouldn't believe the time and effort it took to get my name removed from those records, and there are thousands of people who don't take the time.


I know MANY inactive members of the LDS Church. Very few of them want their names removed. Most of them acknowlege that they know its true, they just have a hard time living the standards of the Church.

How do you know that there are "thousands of people who don't take the time?" How do you even know there are thousands of people who want their names removed from the records? I'm wondering if you also found that information off of the internet.


If anyone is interested in learning about ex-Mormons and the reasons why they left the Mormon church, they can talk to some at exmormon.org or postmormon.org. There's also some good information available on wikipedia.

And if anyone is interested in learning about members of the LDS Church and the reasons why they joined, they can talk to the local LDS missionaries or visit mormon.org, or lds.org.


In regards to my credibility, I also think that taking the word of an unknown stranger about anything would be foolish, and in this case, it's very easy to find information which seriously challenges the claims of Mormons.

Challenge all you want. Jesus Christ was also challenged. Peter and Paul were challenged. It doesn't mean what they taught was false.


I noticed that the specific issues I raised concerning the baptism of Jews who died in the Holocaust and the futility of trying to baptise all of the world's citizens from the beginning of time were ignored.

All of the Lord's work will be completed during the Millenium, under the direction of Jesus Christ.


The Mormon response was name calling and impugning my motives and character and an amazing reading of my mind. Personal attacks in a formal debate is an automatic loss for the attacker.

Can you point me in the right direction? I'm having a hard time finding an "attacker" on this thread.


As to what you believe, all any of us can do is refer to the writings and speeches of your prophets, and what interesting reading that is! For example, from the Mormon founder, Joseph Smith: "Come on! ye prosecutors! ye false swearers! All hell, boil over! Ye burning mountains, roll down your lava! for I will come out on top at last. I have more to boast of than ever any man had. I am the only man that has ever been able to keep a whole church together since the days of Adam. A large majority of the whole have stood by me. Neither Paul, John, Peter, nor Jesus ever did it. I boast that no man ever did such a work as I. The followers of Jesus ran away from Him; but the Latter-day Saints never ran away from me yet...When they can get rid of me, the devil will also go." (History of the Church, Vol. 6, p. 408, 409)

A typical quote used by those who aim to discredit the LDS Church. I stand by Joseph Smith and the Lord. Joseph Smith was God's chosen prophet of the restoration.

[JenT]

Hey, would you all mind waiting for me until I catch up? I left off on about page 78

:)

[JenT]

Don't be too hard on CD, Terri. He's a guy with a lot of knowledge and has taught all of us things we didn't know before. He just got a little frustrated having to singlehandedly defend his faith among all the Mormons. Looks like he will be going back to Iraq soon and I think he can shape up without a mod getting involved.

OLD TEX, how can anybody get mad at a face like your avatar, is that your son? SO ADORABLE, seriously.

[Portia]

You needn't have said anything more than: "BTW, I left the Mormon church 40 years ago."

We know, we understand, you can leave the LDS Church, but you can't leave the LDS Church alone...

This thread is a place where people can come and learn from faithful active Mormons what Mormons really believe. They will NEVER learn that from our apostates and enemies.

As I wrote earlier today:

I personally think it is much more valid to ask faithful informed Mormons what Mormons believe, ask Baptists what Baptists believe, Pentecostals about their beliefs, Catholics about theirs etc. than to go to the websites or spokespersons of their apostates and enemies.

I invite all who want to know what Mormons really believe to read and ask questions of the active informed LDS writing in this thread and/or to anonymously browse at an official LDS website such as:


http://www.mormon.org (http://www.mormon.org)


.

Oh. Did I miss something? This thread is only for Mormons? I would think that anyone who wanted only the Mormon view could get that very easily from the myriad of Mormon websites. They could even ask for personal teachers to come to their house. I assumed that since you posted this on a public webside, you would expect non-Mormons to read and comment.

As to the odd notion that one should ask a Mormon, I did, in fact, ask a couple of questions and challenged Mormon practices, but the issues were not addressed. And in regard to learning about the beliefs of other religions, no, I would ASK any member. I would read their history, their philosophers, their religious books. If I wanted clarification, I might seek out a trained priest or minister of that religion, but otherwise, why would I think that a lay member would automatically be conversant with all doctrines and all history? I would also spend time reading challenges to those philosophies and claims. Truth is a wonderful thing. It can withstand challenge and questioning. So, yes. I would encourage anyone interested in Mormonism to go to the Mormon web sites, but any informed person would also explore the accounts not given by the salesman. Don't you think you might want to check with critical reviews before you bought a product OR an argument OR a believe--especially a believe that's going to cost you 10% of your gross income and almost all loss of personal freedom and thought and time?

For example, these are some things non-Mormons ought to explore:

Why were there 3 first visions? Why did Joseph Smith try to join the Methodist Church after God, Himself, told him it was an abomination? Why doesn't the pictures of Joseph Smith at Temple Square include all 32 of his wives? Why only Emma? Why was a prophet, seer and revelator fooled by the Kinderhook plates? For that matter, why was the last prophet, seer and revelator fooled by the Salamander Letter? Explain blood atonement and cite cases where Joseph and Brigham Young used it as a means of enforcement. Explain the church's hiding of the details of the Mountain Meadow Massacre. Explain why the church required an oath against the US Government before 1930? Explain the blood oaths required before 1990. Explain why the Catholic Church is the church of the devil and the great whore (several prophets taught this and I was taught this) and why the temple play has a Protestant minister as the devil's servant. Explain the odd translation of a funnery paparis into the Book of Abraham. Explain why Brigham Young prohibited blacks from holding the priesthood and why subsequent prophets also prohibited this until political forces changed the prohibition in 1978. Explain why the Smithsonian Institute issued a form letter denying that they had found ANY evidence that there was a Jewish civilization in the America's and that there is no linquistic, geological, archeological, cultural evidence of the historocity of the Book of Mormon. Explain why there is no Middle Eastern DNA in American Indians.

All beliefs are subject to challenge, and you may be assured that if a Scientologist or Jehovah's Witness came here, I would also question their theology and history.

[THE LIGHT]

It's something that he's picked from the anti sites. It's for what shock value it might contain for whoever hears it.

Make that the Bible. I get all my stuff directly from the Bible. Also through prayer and the Holy Spirit.:D

[THE LIGHT]

Oh well, it was a good story until truth intruded, as it sometimes does. Stick around, you might learn some truth about the Latter-day Saints.

Couln't agree more!!!!:D

[orbitaldecay]

Portia,
You seem to be passionate at trying to find faults with the LDS Church. Yes?

[Portia]

I honestly don't care. What do "numbers" have anything to do with truth? Are you saying that the more people that believe in something or practice something makes that "something" right? Sorry, I don't follow that logic.
------------------------------------------------------------
No, not at all. Please refer to the genisis post wherein I challenged the Mormon numbers on membership, conversion rate and number of apostates.
IN RESPONSE TO REEDER:



I know MANY inactive members of the LDS Church. Very few of them want their names removed. Most of them acknowlege that they know its true, they just have a hard time living the standards of the Church.
----------------------------------------------------------------
That does not describe the thousands I'm referring to. They left the church because they learned, let's say, the history the church doesn't teach. Again, the information is available on the internet and you could probably get more specific information about numbers through the Exmormon Foundation and its chapters throughout the US.
-------------------------------------------------------------------
How do you know that there are "thousands of people who don't take the time?" How do you even know there are thousands of people who want their names removed from the records? I'm wondering if you also found that information off of the internet.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yes. Through reputable organizations. Or are you saying that internet research is automatically suspect regardless of source?

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Challenge all you want. Jesus Christ was also challenged. Peter and Paul were challenged. It doesn't mean what they taught was false.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
No. Certainly not, but surely you're not comparing Mormon prophets to Jesus Christ or to Peter or Paul? Surely not.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

All of the Lord's work will be completed during the Millenium, under the direction of Jesus Christ.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Well then why waste the time, the money, the resources doing what amounts to a half a drop in the ocean of all humanity when it can all be done then? This simply isn't reasonable or logical.



Can you point me in the right direction? I'm having a hard time finding an "attacker" on this thread.
----------------------------------------------------------
You. And I believe someone called coMITTed.


A typical quote used by those who aim to discredit the LDS Church. I stand by Joseph Smith and the Lord. Joseph Smith was God's chosen prophet of the restoration.[/QUOTE]


No. That's not a "typical" quote. That's an exact quote of this same Joseph Smith and pretty much speaks for itself. If it also speaks for you, so be it. Me? Not so much. Contrary to Joseph's claims, I'm pretty sure Jesus Christ was the greater (as was Peter and Paul).

[THE LIGHT]

Portia,
You seem to be passionate at trying to find faults with the LDS Church. Yes?

Maybe he isn't trying, maybe he knows. :wall: Why is is that if someone disagrees with the LDS practice it is regarded as just "anti" and false when clearly it can be seen that these things have happened and these quotes have been made. Portia is just another example of this. Give him a break maybe he could be right???

[Reeder]

No. That's not a "typical" quote. That's an exact quote of this same Joseph Smith and pretty much speaks for itself. If it also speaks for you, so be it. Me? Not so much. Contrary to Joseph's claims, I'm pretty sure Jesus Christ was the greater (as was Peter and Paul).

I'd appreciate it if you wouldn't alter my quote as you did. It makes it look as though I said all of those things. Please change it, thanks.

[orbitaldecay]

Maybe he isn't trying, maybe he knows. :wall: Why is is that if someone disagrees with the LDS practice it is regarded as just "anti" and false when clearly it can be seen that these things have happened and these quotes have been made. Portia is just another example of this. Give him a break maybe he could be right???

You'll find that I never called him anti-
It was just curious that he seems to repeating a lot of what this forum has heard in the past.

[Reeder]

Maybe he isn't trying, maybe he knows. :wall: Why is is that if someone disagrees with the LDS practice it is regarded as just "anti" and false when clearly it can be seen that these things have happened and these quotes have been made. Portia is just another example of this. Give him a break maybe he could be right???

:think:

I don't recall orbitaldecay saying anything about "anti," or "false." That was you.

[THE LIGHT]

I honestly don't care. What do "numbers" have anything to do with truth? Are you saying that the more people that believe in something or practice something makes that "something" right? Sorry, I don't follow that logic.

I agree with you 100% on that because he says, "Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it." (Matthew 7:14) That sure sounds like few to me.:angel:

[Reeder]

Thank you, Portia, for changing your post so that my "quote" didn't appear with your responses. I appreciate that.

[Reeder]

I agree with you 100% on that because he says, "Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it." (Matthew 7:14) That sure sounds like few to me.:angel:
Indeed, it does.

[THE LIGHT]

:think:

I don't recall orbitaldecay saying anything about "anti," or "false." That was YOU.

I just got told by OT that my infomation was from anti sites and portia was told he was trying to find fault.:think:

[scipio337]

You'll find that I never called him anti-
It was just curious that he seems to repeating a lot of what this forum has heard in the past.

To be honest, I have rarely seen those issues discussed.

And I believe Portia is a female's name (Julius Caesar, Merchant of Venice)

[Reeder]

I just got told by OT that my infomation was from anti sites and portia was told he was trying to find fault.:think:

The OT thing is a separate incident. Orbitaldecay said "trying to find fault...."

Noticing that someone is "trying to find fault" is not the same as calling him/her "anti" or spreading "falsehoods."

[THE LIGHT]

Indeed, it does.

Not that you can't have many but just because the Mormon church (and I don't know the numbers so don't get me wrong) may not have the same amount as another church doesn't prove anything.

[Reeder]

Not that you can't have many but just because the Mormon church (and I don't know the numbers so don't get me wrong) may not have the same amount as another church doesn't prove anything.

I believe thats exactly what I was saying. Numbers are irrelevant.

[THE LIGHT]

The OT thing is a separate incident. Orbitaldecay said "trying to find fault...."

Noticing that someone is "trying to find fault" is not the same as calling him/her "anti" or spreading "falsehoods."

"trying to find fault" is the same as spreading "falsehoods."

[THE LIGHT]

I believe thats exactly what I was saying.

I know, I was just expounding some more.:angel:

[Dancer]

It is good to see when people of different faiths can come to agreement. :D :hug:

[THE LIGHT]

And I believe Portia is a female's name (Julius Caesar, Merchant of Venice)

Sorry if that's the case.:redface:

[Reeder]

"trying to find fault" is the same as spreading "falsehoods."


No, it isn't.

You can find fault with someone and not be spreading "falsehoods."

[THE LIGHT]

It is good to see when people of different faiths can come to agreement. :D :hug:

:hug::hug::hug::hug::hug::hug:

[Reeder]

I know, I was just expounding some more.:angel:

;)

[orbitaldecay]

To be honest, I have rarely seen those issues discussed.

And I believe Portia is a female's name (Julius Caesar, Merchant of Venice)

My mistake if Portia is a female. Should have paid attention to the "a" :doh:

[THE LIGHT]

No, it isn't.

You can find fault with someone and not be spreading "falsehoods."

Okay, so either you are admiting there IS fault with the LDS and portias claims are valid or the mixture of "trying" with "to find fault" must mean there are "falsehoods" and "anti." Can't have it both ways.

[THE LIGHT]

;)

Honestly, I agree with you.

[noelle12]

Okay, so either you are admiting there IS fault with the LDS and portias claims are valid or the mixture of "trying" with "to find fault" must mean there are "falsehoods" and "anti." Can't have it both ways.

huh? :question:

[Reeder]

Okay, so either you are admiting there IS fault with the LDS and portias claims are valid or the mixture of "trying" with "to find fault" must mean there are "falsehoods" and "anti." Can't have it both ways.

Look at it this way. Someone can quote an LDS Prophet, or Apostle, or whoever, and say "see.....so & so said this." While it may be true that "so & so said that," it doesn't mean that the LDS Church is false. That "someone" may be trying to use that quote to discredit the Church.

So the quote actually exists (and that is NOT a falsehood), yet it doesn't mean the LDS Church is false. So the person using it may be "trying to find fault," while using REAL quotes. See how that works. "Trying to find fault" doesn't mean "spreading falsehoods." Its simply his/her point of view on the matter.

[Old Tex]

OLD TEX, how can anybody get mad at a face like your avatar, is that your son? SO ADORABLE, seriously.

I would like to say that it is my baby picture, but nobody is going to buy that. The little guy is my youngest great grandson. His name is Joseph. The photo was taken about two years ago.

[THE LIGHT]

Look at it this way. Someone can quote an LDS Prophet, or Apostle, or whoever, and say "see.....so & so said this." While it may be true that "so & so said that," it doesn't mean that the LDS Church is false. That "someone" may be trying to use that quote to discredit the Church.

So the quote actually exists (and that is NOT a falsehood), yet it doesn't mean the LDS Church is false. So the person using it may be "trying to find fault," while using REAL quotes. See how that works. "Trying to find fault" doesn't mean "spreading falsehoods." Its simply his/her point of view on the matter.

But whan it is your prophets saying it, it is kinda hard to get around.;)

[THE LIGHT]

I would like to say that it is my baby picture, but nobody is going to buy that. The little guy is my youngest great grandson. His name is Joseph. The photo was taken about two years ago.

O, and I thought that was you.:doh:

[basilisk]

But whan it is your prophets saying it, it is kinda hard to get around.;)
Not at all. People who are not of our faith misinterpret the saying of prophets both modern and ancient. A lot of run of the mill LDS do as well, from time to time, including me. It's a good thing we have living prophets to set us straight. ;)

[THE LIGHT]

Not at all. People who are not of our faith misinterpret the saying of prophets both modern and ancient. A lot of run of the mill LDS do as well, from time to time, including me. It's a good thing we have living prophets to set us straight. ;)

thats exactly what I was saying.:lol:

[coMITTed]

Portia,
You seem to be passionate at trying to find faults with the LDS Church. Yes?

I wouldn't worry too much about it. At the rate she's going, she's going to kamakaze her way right on out of the RF before she even hits 100 posts :lol:.

[Reeder]

But whan it is your prophets saying it, it is kinda hard to get around.;)

True. And I completely understand that. But I question the quote by Joseph Smith that she brought up earlier. The reason I question it is because I have taken a lot of time to read through copies of Joseph Smith's personal journal, letters he wrote, and other documents, and I see nothing more than a humble servant of Christ in his writings. I question the context and purpose of those few controversial quotes that are used on a regular basis to try and discredit the LDS Church. Honestly, if you were to read through Joseph's writings, you would see that he is very humble, and is very honored to serve the Lord.

I'm not saying Joseph DIDN'T say what he said.........but it doesn't really fit with his other writings. I wonder WHY he said it.........to whom he said it........etc.

[coMITTed]

True. And I completely understand that. But I question the quote by Joseph Smith that she brought up earlier. The reason I question it is because I have taken a lot of time to read through copies of Joseph Smith's personal journal, letters he wrote, and other documents, and I see nothing more than a humble servant of Christ in his writings. I question the context and purpose of those few controversial quotes that are used on a regular basis to try and discredit the LDS Church. Honestly, if you were to read through Joseph's writings, you would see that he is very humble, and is very honored to serve the Lord.

I'm not saying Joseph DIDN'T say what he said.........but it doesn't really fit with his other writings. I wonder WHY he said it.........to whom he said it........etc.

Doesn't Christ Himself say in the Bible that there would be at least one even greater than Him when it came to keeping the body of the Church together? Or something like that? I've seen that verse quoted in step with Joseph's quote.

[birdonawire]

Doesn't Christ Himself say in the Bible that there would be at least one even greater than Him when it came to keeping the body of the Church together? Or something like that? I've seen that verse quoted in step with Joseph's quote.


I think He was talking about the Holy Spirit.:D

[Reeder]

Doesn't Christ Himself say in the Bible that there would be at least one even greater than Him when it came to keeping the body of the Church together? Or something like that? I've seen that verse quoted in step with Joseph's quote.


I don't think there is a scripture in the Bible where Christ speaks of someone who will specifically "keep the body of the Church together," but He did say this:

John 14: 12

12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

[coMITTed]

I think He was talking about the Holy Spirit.:D

Did He only say ONE greater than Him, or that there would be THOSE greater than Him?

[coMITTed]

I don't think there is a scripture in the Bible where Christ speaks of someone who will specifically "keep the body of the Church together," but He did say this:

John 14: 12

12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

Ah, so in this case "He" could actually be meant plurally. Darn that Greek to Latin to English translation :)!

[Reeder]

Ah, so in this case "He" could actually be meant plurally. Darn that Greek to Latin to English translation :)!

:D

[THE LIGHT]

True. And I completely understand that. But I question the quote by Joseph Smith that she brought up earlier. The reason I question it is because I have taken a lot of time to read through copies of Joseph Smith's personal journal, letters he wrote, and other documents, and I see nothing more than a humble servant of Christ in his writings. I question the context and purpose of those few controversial quotes that are used on a regular basis to try and discredit the LDS Church. Honestly, if you were to read through Joseph's writings, you would see that he is very humble, and is very honored to serve the Lord.

I'm not saying Joseph DIDN'T say what he said.........but it doesn't really fit with his other writings. I wonder WHY he said it.........to whom he said it........etc.

What could I do without you reeder. I really mean it.:angel:

BUT

the Bible says: "Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump?" (1 Cor 5:6)

it also says

"... for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh." (Matthew 12:34)

these quotes are not limited to Joseph Smith himself but also other prominent LDS prophets. They aren't just a few comments either.

[Reeder]

What could I do without you reeder. I really mean it.:angel:

BUT

the Bible says: "Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump?" (1 Cor 5:6)

it also says

"... for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh." (Matthew 12:34)

these quotes are not limited to Joseph Smith himself but also other prominent LDS prophets. They aren't just a few comments either.

Actually, in comparison to all of the good, Christ-like comments, they are few. And I will be the first to admit that Joseph Smith, as well as the other Presidents and Apostles of the LDS Church are only men. Men make mistakes. Men sometimes speak out of frustration, or anger. Even Peter denied the Christ three times. Now, had that been Joseph Smith who denied the Christ three times (instead of Peter), I can guarantee you that LDS critics would be having a FIELD day with that one. "How can a true Prophet deny the Christ," they would say. Yet from Peter, they choose rather to learn a lesson, and move on.

Thats what I try to do with Joseph Smith, and other leaders in the LDS Church, as well as leaders OUTSIDE of the LDS Church. I try to learn from all the good they do....AND from their mistakes.

[coMITTed]

What could I do without you reeder. I really mean it.:angel:

BUT

the Bible says: "Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump?" (1 Cor 5:6)

it also says

"... for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh." (Matthew 12:34)

these quotes are not limited to Joseph Smith himself but also other prominent LDS prophets. They aren't just a few comments either.

Well, one thing I like to remember when it comes to Joseph and his seeming "pride" from some of his quotes is that Moses was denied entrance into the promised land for HIS pride (claiming that HE provided water from the rock, failing to acknowledge the Lord). Perhaps this could be why Joseph was not the one to lead the Saints west, and why his life was cut so short? Joseph was far, far from perfect and was chastised by the Lord on multiple occasions. But that doesn't make him any less a prophet of God, nor does it mean that He is not standing with God as the head of His last dispensation, just as Moses stands with God as the head of that dispensation.

Just my $0.02

[CatholicDefender]

I don't think there is a scripture in the Bible where Christ speaks of someone who will specifically "keep the body of the Church together," but He did say this:

John 14: 12

12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

1 Corinthians 1:10

[orbitaldecay]

Actually, in comparison to all of the good, Christ-like comments, they are few. And I will be the first to admit that Joseph Smith, as well as the other Presidents and Apostles of the LDS Church are only men. Men make mistakes. Men sometimes speak out of frustration, or anger. Even Peter denied the Christ three times. Now, had that been Joseph Smith who denied the Christ three times (instead of Peter), I can guarantee you that LDS critics would be having a FIELD day with that one. "How can a true Prophet deny the Christ," they would say. Yet from Peter, they choose rather to learn a lesson, and move on.

Thats what I try to do with Joseph Smith, and other leaders in the LDS Church, as well as leaders OUTSIDE of the LDS Church. I try to learn from all the good they do....AND from their mistakes.

:clap:

[Reeder]

1 Corinthians 1:10


Good scripture, and I agree with it.

[JenT]

1 Corinthians 1:10

(*(*(*(*( CD! )*)*)*)*)

CD, what did "portia" say? Do you know?

[JenT]

And CD, when are you leaving and when do you get back? my time on here is limited, I dno't see as much as I'd like

[CatholicDefender]

And CD, when are you leaving and when do you get back? my time on here is limited, I dno't see as much as I'd like

I'll be on for a few minutes, I got to get ready for a ballgame in an hour! Good to see you all!

[JenT]

I'll be on for a few minutes, I got to get ready for a ballgame in an hour! Good to see you all!

PFFFFT, not what I meant and you know it! LOL

[THE LIGHT]

I think He was talking about the Holy Spirit.:D

He was talking about the Holy Spirit.

"But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:" John 15:26

I don't think Joseph Smith was a "Spirit." He had one but wasn't one himself. And somehow I don't feel comforted by quotes like these coming from LDS prophets:

3rd President of the LDS Church John Taylor said the following:
"We talk about Christianity, but it is a perfect pack of nonsense…the devil could not invent a better engine to spread his work than the Christianity of the nineteenth century" (Journal of Discourses 6:167).

[coMITTed]

He was talking about the Holy Spirit.

"But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:" John 15:26

I don't think Joseph Smith was a "Spirit." He had one but wasn't one himself. And somehow I don't feel comforted by quotes like these coming from LDS prophets:

3rd President of the LDS Church John Taylor said the following:
"We talk about Christianity, but it is a perfect pack of nonsense…the devil could not invent a better engine to spread his work than the Christianity of the nineteenth century" (Journal of Discourses 6:167).

Yeeeeeeeeaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhh. The JoD is NOT doctrine. Most of it is personal opinion and speculation. Also, read in context, please: ". . .the Christianity OF THE NINETEENTH CENTURY."

[CatholicDefender]

PFFFFT, not what I meant and you know it! LOL

hehehe, all I know is I'm here! I agree with Light, the scripture in question is refering to the Holy Spirit (John 15:26).

[Reeder]

He was talking about the Holy Spirit.

"But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:" John 15:26

No one quoted John 15:26 in the first place, so I'm not sure who you're speaking to/of.

I quoted John 14: 12.



I don't think Joseph Smith was a "Spirit." He had one but wasn't one himself. And somehow I don't feel comforted by quotes like these coming from LDS prophets:

3rd President of the LDS Church John Taylor said the following:
"We talk about Christianity, but it is a perfect pack of nonsense…the devil could not invent a better engine to spread his work than the Christianity of the nineteenth century" (Journal of Discourses 6:167).


Can you really blame the guy? I mean, he was shot multiple times in Carthage Jail and almost died by so-called "Christians." He was persecuted and driven from place to place by so-called "Christians." And, like I said, he is also one of those mortal "men" who makes mistakes.

And besides that, John Taylor grew up attending different Christian sects, and even became a preacher. He was speaking against what he was once a part of. He wasn't born LDS.

[THE LIGHT]

Actually, in comparison to all of the good, Christ-like comments, they are few. And I will be the first to admit that Joseph Smith, as well as the other Presidents and Apostles of the LDS Church are only men. Men make mistakes. Men sometimes speak out of frustration, or anger. Even Peter denied the Christ three times. Now, had that been Joseph Smith who denied the Christ three times (instead of Peter), I can guarantee you that LDS critics would be having a FIELD day with that one. "How can a true Prophet deny the Christ," they would say. Yet from Peter, they choose rather to learn a lesson, and move on.

Thats what I try to do with Joseph Smith, and other leaders in the LDS Church, as well as leaders OUTSIDE of the LDS Church. I try to learn from all the good they do....AND from their mistakes.

That doesn't answer either of those two scriptures. And as for Peter, yes he did deny Jesus three times, but that was before he had the Holy Spirit and before he claimed to be strong in and have the boldness of the Lord.

Another side not to that, it is interesting that Jesus later got Peter to confess his love for him THREE times.:D see John 21:15-18

[Reeder]

hehehe, all I know is I'm here! I agree with Light, the scripture in question is refering to the Holy Spirit (John 15:26).

I don't understand. Who is DISAGREEING with Light? Who brought up John 15:26 in the first place?

[THE LIGHT]

No one quoted John 15:26 in the first place, so I'm not sure who you're speaking to/of.

I quoted John 14: 12.





Can you really blame the guy? I mean, he was shot multiple times in Carthage Jail and almost died by so-called "Christians." He was persecuted and driven from place to place by so-called "Christians." And, like I said, he is also one of those mortal "men" who makes mistakes.

And besides that, John Taylor grew up attending different Christian sects, and even became a preacher. He was speaking against what he was once a part of. He wasn't born LDS.

Yes and Joseph Smith had a pistol in his hand that he fired during the incedent, did he not? Did Jesus?

[THE LIGHT]

I don't understand. Who is DISAGREEING with Light? Who brought up John 15:26 in the first place?

I brought it up for clarification of who that "greater one" was.:D

[JenT]

He was talking about the Holy Spirit.

"But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:" John 15:26

I don't think Joseph Smith was a "Spirit." He had one but wasn't one himself. And somehow I don't feel comforted by quotes like these coming from LDS prophets:

3rd President of the LDS Church John Taylor said the following:
"We talk about Christianity, but it is a perfect pack of nonsense…the devil could not invent a better engine to spread his work than the Christianity of the nineteenth century" (Journal of Discourses 6:167).

You mean... last night when I felt rocked by the Holy Spirit to sleep, THAT was Joseph Smith?

I'm calling the cops next time

[Reeder]

That doesn't answer either of those two scriptures. And as for Peter, yes he did deny Jesus three times, but that was before he had the Holy Spirit and before he claimed to be strong in and have the boldness of the Lord.

Another side not to that, it is interesting that Jesus later got Peter to confess his love for him THREE times.:D see John 21:15-18


Does it have to answer those scriptures? Personally, I don't think they applied in the first place. You do, so you'll have to answer them yourself. Sorry.

Yes, Peter became a wonderful follower of Christ, and a true servant. But Peter was not Joseph Smith. They both made personal mistakes because they are both men. Why can't we just learn from them both? I have yet to see you post something GOOD that Joseph Smith said, and there are plenty of those quotes floating around.

[THE LIGHT]

Well, one thing I like to remember when it comes to Joseph and his seeming "pride" from some of his quotes is that Moses was denied entrance into the promised land for HIS pride (claiming that HE provided water from the rock, failing to acknowledge the Lord). Perhaps this could be why Joseph was not the one to lead the Saints west, and why his life was cut so short? Joseph was far, far from perfect and was chastised by the Lord on multiple occasions. But that doesn't make him any less a prophet of God, nor does it mean that He is not standing with God as the head of His last dispensation, just as Moses stands with God as the head of that dispensation.

Just my $0.02

yes, that is always possible.:angel:

[coMITTed]

Yes and Joseph Smith had a pistol in his hand that he fired during the incedent, did he not? Did Jesus?

He was given the pistol by his jailors--he was supposed to be under "protection" by Governor Ford. It's not like he carried it in with him. And Christ was God while Joseph was a man. I think you're setting up a pretty falacious strawman, here.

[Reeder]

I brought it up for clarification of who that "greater one" was.:D


No, the scripture that I quoted was not referring to the Spirit. It said "Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father."

Its fairly clear, at least to me, that He was NOT referring to the Holy Spirit in this case. Is the Holy Spirit "He that believeth on Jesus?"

[THE LIGHT]

You mean... last night when I felt rocked by the Holy Spirit to sleep, THAT was Joseph Smith?

I'm calling the cops next time

:))

[THE LIGHT]

No, the scripture that I quoted was not referring to the Spirit. It said "Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father."

Its fairly clear, at least to me, that He was NOT referring to the Holy Spirit in this case. Is the Holy Spirit "He that believeth on Jesus?"

Sorry, missed that one. Yeah, that just means that the "he who" (sorry, I just had to say that) is you and me and anyone else that BELIEVES on Jesus. No special person.:D

[Reeder]

Yes and Joseph Smith had a pistol in his hand that he fired during the incedent, did he not? Did Jesus?

Wait, I thought we were talking about John Taylor in this instance, not Joseph Smith. Why are you reverting back to Joseph Smith? And judging by what Joseph said prior to his incarceration, I believe that he was trying to protect the lives of his friends.....not his own. Before he was incarcerated he said, "If my life is of no worth to my friends, it is of no worth to me."

[coMITTed]

Sorry, missed that one. Yeah, that just means that the "he who" (sorry, I just had to say that) is you and me and anyone else that BELIEVES on Jesus. No special person.:D

So you mean to say that you are greater than Christ? :think:

[THE LIGHT]

He was given the pistol by his jailors--he was supposed to be under "protection" by Governor Ford. It's not like he carried it in with him. And Christ was God while Joseph was a man. I think you're setting up a pretty falacious strawman, here.

Darn, you mean if someone handed a sword to Jesus, things would have been different?:eek: I thought Jesus said, "Get thee behind me, Satan" (Matthew 16:23) when Peter told him not to go. Also see Matthew 26:52

[THE LIGHT]

Wait, I thought we were talking about John Taylor in this instance, not Joseph Smith. Why are you reverting back to Joseph Smith? And judging by what Joseph said prior to his incarceration, I believe that he was trying to protect the lives of his friends.....not his own. Before he was incarcerated he said, "If my life is of no worth to my friends, it is of no worth to me."

just answering coMITTED

[Reeder]

Darn, you mean if someone handed a sword to Jesus, things would have been different?:eek: I thought Jesus said, "Get thee behind me, Satan" (Matthew 16:23) when Peter told him not to go. Also see Matthew 26:52

No, you're not being fair. If you don't want others to compare Christ to mortal men and women, then it'd be very decent of you to not do it yourself. Christ had a mission in this life that was vital to the salvation of all mankind. Peter didn't yet understand that, and he tried to save Jesus from the hands of the Roman soldiers and Pharisees. If Christ had been saved, and WASN'T beaten and crucified, then how could He have saved us? Hence, He said "get behind me, Satan." I'm sure Satan wanted nothing more in that moment than to stop the atonement from happening. Christ knew it HAD to happen.

[coMITTed]

Darn, you mean if someone handed a sword to Jesus, things would have been different?:eek: I thought Jesus said, "Get thee behind me, Satan" (Matthew 16:23) when Peter told him not to go. Also see Matthew 26:52

Christ didn't resist His captors b/c He knew that His sacrifice would mean the atonement of all mankind. Quite a different mission and purpose than was Joseph's, don't you think? But that didn't mean that Christ never got angry with those who profaned the sacred. Money changers in the temple, anyone?

Again, you're comparing apples to cumquats, here. NONE of the Lord's annointed were perfect. They ALL made mistakes, and b/c people look to them as prophets, their errors are far more glaring than would be otherwise. I have a testimony that Joseph Smith is a prophet of God and through him, God was able to restore His priesthood and the fullness of His everlasting gospel on the earth again for the last time before the second coming of Christ. That witness is far too powerful for me to lose faith in Joseph's key role as a prophet just b/c he was a man, said things that were prideful, or did things that were just flat-out wrong. ALL the prophets are guilty of that.

[Reeder]

just answering coMITTED

If someone was trying to kill members of your family, would you not defend them.....even unto death?

[terri910]

Someone help me out here, because I'm confused as to who is talking about what! (And I'll thank you NOT to say 'business as usual for terri910"!)

Reeder, when you give the scripture below:
No, the scripture that I quoted was not referring to the Spirit. It said "Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father."

Its fairly clear, at least to me, that He was NOT referring to the Holy Spirit in this case. Is the Holy Spirit "He that believeth on Jesus?"
Are you thinking that it is the scripture coMITTed was trying to think of in her post:
Doesn't Christ Himself say in the Bible that there would be at least one even greater than Him when it came to keeping the body of the Church together? Or something like that? I've seen that verse quoted in step with Joseph's quote.

Because I don't see anything in that that refers to what I have highlighted in coMITTed's post.

[THE LIGHT]

If someone was trying to kill members of your family, would you not defend them.....even unto death?

Did Jesus? After all, he probably could have defended John the Baptist. But, that wasn't the situation of Joseph Smith anyway was it? I thought he was defending him'SELF'. Again, did Jesus? Did Peter?

[THE LIGHT]

No, you're not being fair. If you don't want others to compare Christ to mortal men and women, then it'd be very decent of you to not do it yourself. Christ had a mission in this life that was vital to the salvation of all mankind. Peter didn't yet understand that, and he tried to save Jesus from the hands of the Roman soldiers and Pharisees. If Christ had been saved, and WASN'T beaten and crucified, then how could He have saved us? Hence, He said "get behind me, Satan." I'm sure Satan wanted nothing more in that moment than to stop the atonement from happening. Christ knew it HAD to happen.


But we are suppose to be like Christ.
Absolutely!!! for the rest of it.:clap:

[THE LIGHT]

Christ didn't resist His captors b/c He knew that His sacrifice would mean the atonement of all mankind. Quite a different mission and purpose than was Joseph's, don't you think? But that didn't mean that Christ never got angry with those who profaned the sacred. Money changers in the temple, anyone?

Again, you're comparing apples to cumquats, here. NONE of the Lord's annointed were perfect. They ALL made mistakes, and b/c people look to them as prophets, their errors are far more glaring than would be otherwise. I have a testimony that Joseph Smith is a prophet of God and through him, God was able to restore His priesthood and the fullness of His everlasting gospel on the earth again for the last time before the second coming of Christ. That witness is far too powerful for me to lose faith in Joseph's key role as a prophet just b/c he was a man, said things that were prideful, or did things that were just flat-out wrong. ALL the prophets are guilty of that.


They were not perfect before, but after recieving Christ they became new men with the boldness of Christ.

Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. 2Corinthians 5:17

When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things. 1Corinthians 13:11

[justamere10]

Yes and Joseph Smith had a pistol in his hand that he fired during the incedent, did he not? Did Jesus?

One man with one small pistol defending himself and his unarmed brother and friends against an army of TWO HUNDRED murderers armed with rifles, coming through the door, and shooting through the window. And critics condemn JOSEPH for having that pistol in his hand??

Below is how the martyrdom of Joseph and Hyrum Smith is described in the Doctrine and Covenants Section 135. It was written very soon after the event, by a man who was there with Joseph Smith and was himself shot four times by the same vicious mob that was led by a minister of religion.

Martyrdom of Joseph Smith the Prophet and his brother, Hyrum Smith the Patriarch, at Carthage, Illinois, June 27, 1844. History of the Church 6: 629–631. This document was written by Elder John Taylor of the Council of the Twelve, who was a witness to the events.

1 To seal the testimony of this book and the Book of Mormon, we announce the martyrdom of Joseph Smith the Prophet, and Hyrum Smith the Patriarch. They were shot in Carthage jail, on the 27th of June, 1844, about five o’clock p.m., by an armed mob—painted black—of from 150 to 200 persons. Hyrum was shot first and fell calmly, exclaiming: I am a dead man! Joseph leaped from the window, and was shot dead in the attempt, exclaiming: O Lord my God! They were both shot after they were dead, in a brutal manner, and both received four balls.


2 John Taylor and Willard Richards, two of the Twelve, were the only persons in the room at the time; the former was wounded in a savage manner with four balls, but has since recovered; the latter, through the providence of God, escaped, without even a hole in his robe.


3 Joseph Smith, the Prophet and Seer of the Lord, has done more, save Jesus only, for the salvation of men in this world, than any other man that ever lived in it. In the short space of twenty years, he has brought forth the Book of Mormon, which he translated by the gift and power of God, and has been the means of publishing it on two continents; has sent the fulness of the everlasting gospel, which it contained, to the four quarters of the earth; has brought forth the revelations and commandments which compose this book of Doctrine and Covenants, and many other wise documents and instructions for the benefit of the children of men; gathered many thousands of the Latter-day Saints, founded a great city, and left a fame and name that cannot be slain. He lived great, and he died great in the eyes of God and his people; and like most of the Lord’s anointed in ancient times, has sealed his mission and his works with his own blood; and so has his brother Hyrum. In life they were not divided, and in death they were not separated!


4 When Joseph went to Carthage to deliver himself up to the pretended requirements of the law, two or three days previous to his assassination, he said: “I am going like a lamb to the slaughter; but I am calm as a summer’s morning; I have a conscience void of offense towards God, and towards all men. I SHALL DIE INNOCENT, AND IT SHALL YET BE SAID OF ME—HE WAS MURDERED IN COLD BLOOD.”—The same morning, after Hyrum had made ready to go—shall it be said to the slaughter? yes, for so it was—he read the following paragraph, near the close of the twelfth chapter of Ether, in the Book of Mormon, and turned down the leaf upon it:


5 And it came to pass that I prayed unto the Lord that he would give unto the Gentiles grace, that they might have charity. And it came to pass that the Lord said unto me: If they have not charity it mattereth not unto thee, thou hast been faithful; wherefore thy garments shall be made clean. And because thou hast seen thy weakness, thou shalt be made strong, even unto the sitting down in the place which I have prepared in the mansions of my Father. And now I . . . bid farewell unto the Gentiles; yea, and also unto my brethren whom I love, until we shall meet before the judgment-seat of Christ, where all men shall know that my garments are not spotted with your blood. The testators are now dead, and their testament is in force.


6 Hyrum Smith was forty-four years old in February, 1844, and Joseph Smith was thirty-eight in December, 1843; and henceforward their names will be classed among the martyrs of religion; and the reader in every nation will be reminded that the Book of Mormon, and this book of Doctrine and Covenants of the church, cost the best blood of the nineteenth century to bring them forth for the salvation of a ruined world; and that if the fire can scathe a green tree for the glory of God, how easy it will burn up the dry trees to purify the vineyard of corruption. They lived for glory; they died for glory; and glory is their eternal reward. From age to age shall their names go down to posterity as gems for the sanctified.


7 They were innocent of any crime, as they had often been proved before, and were only confined in jail by the conspiracy of traitors and wicked men; and their innocent blood on the floor of Carthage jail is a broad seal affixed to “Mormonism” that cannot be rejected by any court on earth, and their innocent blood on the escutcheon of the State of Illinois, with the broken faith of the State as pledged by the governor, is a witness to the truth of the everlasting gospel that all the world cannot impeach; and their innocent blood on the banner of liberty, and on the magna charta of the United States, is an ambassador for the religion of Jesus Christ, that will touch the hearts of honest men among all nations; and their innocent blood, with the innocent blood of all the martyrs under the altar that John saw, will cry unto the Lord of Hosts till he avenges that blood on the earth. Amen.



http://scriptures.lds.org/en/dc/135 (mhtml:{09272DBB-5804-4926-A7B0-C39813AD4444}mid://00000591/!x-usc:http://scriptures.lds.org/en/dc/135)

[THE LIGHT]

To seal the testimony of this book and the Book of Mormon, we announce the martyrdom of Joseph Smith the Prophet, and Hyrum Smith the Patriarch. They were shot in Carthage jail, on the 27th of June, 1844, about five o’clock p.m., by an armed mob—painted black—of from 150 to 200 persons. Hyrum was shot first and fell calmly,

How do you fall calmly?:eek: wait, let me try.... (THUD!!) okay, let's try that one again.... (THUUUUDDDDD!!! Ouch!!)


exclaiming: I am a dead man! Joseph leaped from the window, and was shot dead in the attempt, exclaiming: O Lord my God! They were both shot after they were dead, in a brutal manner, and both received four balls.

They really could have said that last part a little different don't ya think?

[Frazzled]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v388/scrappydo89012/496.gif Is that an attempt to interject humor?

[justamere10]

How do you fall calmly?:eek: wait, let me try.... (THUD!!) okay, let's try that one again.... (THUUUUDDDDD!!! Ouch!!)




They really could have said that last part a little different don't ya think?

I wonder how many sincere people can read the account of the death of God's chosen Prophet of the Restoration, as Mormons declare him to be, and then MOCK a few of the words that men used to describe his death?

Not a word of condemnation against the 200 murderers then?

[terri910]

How do you fall calmly?:eek:
I've seen a people fall calmly. Ever seen anyone faint? They aren't flailing about, they just very...well, calmly.....collapse. Sort of like a tire when the air is let out of it. :eek:

[Frazzled]

I wonder how many sincere people can read the account of the death of God's chosen Prophet of the Restoration, as Mormons declare him to be, and then MOCK a few of the words that men used to describe his death?

Not a word of condemnation against the 200 murderers then?

Unfortunately we've had this discussion before in this forum.....it wasn't pleasant.

[justamere10]

Unfortunately we've had this discussion before in this forum.....it wasn't pleasant.

It is not my plan to discuss it, just to shake my head and wonder...

[terri910]

I'm with RayMan......

[Frazzled]

It is not my plan to discuss it, just to shake my head and wonder...

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v388/scrappydo89012/smilies/signs0135B15D.gif

[RayMan]

I'm with RayMan......

Ok Terri,
Now I think I need to reinsert the text I deleted, but with a disclaimer. I just got home after a 33 hour long work "day" and my brain reminds me of the name of a friend of mine, "frazzled." I saw a line about "how do you fall calmy?" and without realizing I was bumping into something with a degree of serious to it shared the following line:

"I am reminded of a Han Solo quote, "I don't know...fly casual."

:angel:

[THE LIGHT]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v388/scrappydo89012/496.gif Is that an attempt to interject humor?

yes, just trying to lighten things up. Sorry, but I couln't help the way they discribed it. I have never heard of calm being used in the same sentence as fall let alone, as an adjective/adverb. And please, couln't have they just said the guy got shot and not "they recieved four balls"?

At the same time we should all remember that it is a very serious thing. It is always a very sad and trajic when you hear of someone dying in this manner... I would never ever want ANYONE to have to go through what he did.

However, the Bible does talk about us being martyrs for Him and that this is pleasing to him.

[Reeder]

yes, just trying to lighten things up. Sorry, but I couln't help the way they discribed it. I have never heard of calm being used in the same sentence as fall let alone, as an adjective/adverb. And please, couln't have they just said the guy got shot and not "they recieved four balls"?

At the same time we should all remember that it is a very serious thing. It is always a very sad and trajic when you hear of someone dying in this manner... I would never ever want ANYONE to have to go through what he did.

However, the Bible does talk about us being martyrs for Him and that this is pleasing to him.

That was the way they phrased things back then. They "received four balls." Remember, they used "balls" in their guns back then, not bullets as we know them today.

[Reeder]

But we are suppose to be like Christ.
Absolutely!!! for the rest of it.:clap:

I agree that we are supposed to "BE" like Christ, but none of us will ever be on the same LEVEL as Christ. So I think comparing any man or woman to the Savior is a bit unfair. After all, who is perfect besides Jesus?

[THE LIGHT]

I wonder how many sincere people can read the account of the death of God's chosen Prophet of the Restoration, as Mormons declare him to be, and then MOCK a few of the words that men used to describe his death?

Not a word of condemnation against the 200 murderers then?

What 200 murderers? Are you referring to those who took part in the killing? If so, I condem them greatly!!!! But that doesn't justify anything, if that is what you are looking for.

[Reeder]

Someone help me out here, because I'm confused as to who is talking about what! (And I'll thank you NOT to say 'business as usual for terri910"!)

Reeder, when you give the scripture below:

Are you thinking that it is the scripture coMITTed was trying to think of in her post:


Because I don't see anything in that that refers to what I have highlighted in coMITTed's post.

You're right, terri. Which is why I said (in response to coMITTed) that the scripture did NOT say anything about someone greater keeping the Church together, but it DID quote Christ as saying that those who believe in Him will do greater things than He (Christ) did.

[THE LIGHT]

I agree that we are supposed to "BE" like Christ, but none of us will ever be on the same LEVEL as Christ. So I think comparing any man or woman to the Savior is a bit unfair. After all, who is perfect besides Jesus?

Matthew 5:48 says, "Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect." Hmmmmmmm....

I will take you up on your offer that "none of us will ever be on the same LEVEL as Christ." I am glad you finally agree that we are not and will not be gods.:D

[Reeder]

Did Jesus? After all, he probably could have defended John the Baptist. But, that wasn't the situation of Joseph Smith anyway was it? I thought he was defending him'SELF'. Again, did Jesus? Did Peter?

You didn't answer my question. If someone (or multiple people) were trying to kill your family, would you defend them.....even unto death?

[THE LIGHT]

That was the way they phrased things back then. They "received four balls." Remember, they used "balls" in their guns back then, not bullets as we know them today.

yes, I know that. Just couln't help it. Sorry.:angel:

[Reeder]

Matthew 5:48 says, "Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect." Hmmmmmmm....

I will take you up on your offer that "none of us will ever be on the same LEVEL as Christ." I am glad you finally agree that we are not and will not be gods.:D


Although I KNOW that you already know my answer to this, I'll give it anyway.

I believe that we can become "gods" (as in becoming more like our Heavenly Father until the "perfect day"), but I DO NOT believe we will EVER be greater than Christ. I believe He will ALWAYS be greater than us.

[Reeder]

Gotta run for a bit. Later!

[THE LIGHT]

You didn't answer my question. If someone (or multiple people) were trying to kill your family, would you defend them.....even unto death?

Like I said, did Jesus defend John the Baptist?

[THE LIGHT]

Gotta run for a bit. Later!

see ya, thanks for the responses...

[Frazzled]

yes, just trying to lighten things up. Sorry, but I couln't help the way they discribed it. I have never heard of calm being used in the same sentence as fall let alone, as an adjective/adverb. And please, couln't have they just said the guy got shot and not "they recieved four balls"?

At the same time we should all remember that it is a very serious thing. It is always a very sad and trajic when you hear of someone dying in this manner... I would never ever want ANYONE to have to go through what he did.

However, the Bible does talk about us being martyrs for Him and that this is pleasing to him.


Okay - friends again ........ but I've got my eye on you! http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v388/scrappydo89012/smilies/smiley_emoticons_smile.gif

[Reeder]

Like I said, did Jesus defend John the Baptist?

Back for a second. My wife won't let me come out for a minute. I think she's wrapping a Birthday present or something. :D

I'll tell you what, I will answer your question as soon as you answer mine. :D

[Reeder]

Okay - friends again ........ but I've got my eye on you! http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v388/scrappydo89012/smilies/smiley_emoticons_smile.gif

A very big GREEN eye.

[THE LIGHT]

Okay - friends again ........ but I've got my eye on you! http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v388/scrappydo89012/smilies/smiley_emoticons_smile.gif

I know, every time I see your avatar I'm reminded of that.:D

[JenT]

You're right, terri. Which is why I said (in response to coMITTed) that the scripture did NOT say anything about someone greater keeping the Church together, but it DID quote Christ as saying that those who believe in Him will do greater things than He (Christ) did.

I'm kinda just getting here but, I think what that scripture means is things like Greg Laurie with The Harvest Crusades leading millions to Christ, MILLIONS, with the calling of the Holy Spirit of course, without Him, Greg Laurie could do nothing.

[THE LIGHT]

Back for a second. My wife won't let me come out for a minute. I think she's wrapping a Birthday present or something. :D

I'll tell you what, I will answer your question as soon as you answer mine. :D

scooot scooot scooot......

okay, deal. I would defend my family to a certain extent. After all, Moses defended his fellow Jew, but it meant some serious consequences for him. Just sayin' I think God expects more of us.:angel:

Who's birthday?:D

[Reeder]

I'm kinda just getting here but, I think what that scripture means is things like Greg Laurie with The Harvest Crusades leading millions to Christ, MILLIONS, with the calling of the Holy Spirit of course, without Him, Greg Laurie could do nothing.


I agree that the guidance of the Holy Ghost is necessary in order to bring others to Christ. And I do NOT believe that anyone can do a greater work than what Christ did on the cross, or in the Garden. I believe Christ was referring to other things.....perhaps things that He did, yet on a much grander scale. It could be perfroming miracles.......or whatever.

[THE LIGHT]

I'm kinda just getting here but, I think what that scripture means is things like Greg Laurie with The Harvest Crusades leading millions to Christ, MILLIONS, with the calling of the Holy Spirit of course, without Him, Greg Laurie could do nothing.

Absolutely!!

[Reeder]

scooot scooot scooot......

okay, deal. I would defend my family to a certain extent. After all, Moses defended his fellow Jew, but it meant some serious consequences for him. Just sayin' I think God expects more of us.:angel:

Who's birthday?:D


My birthday is on Sunday. I told my wife not to get me anything, since we're going to Disneyland next week......but she never listens. :mrgreen: She's too kind.

So you would defend your family to a certain extent? Like what, perhaps? Would you kill another in self defense, or in defense of your own family, or would you let them (the attacker) kill your family without even a fight?

By the way, I believe there are unique circumstances for each of us, and for each situation. I'm not saying there is a right or a wrong answer (according to me).

[JenT]

I would like to say that it is my baby picture, but nobody is going to buy that. The little guy is my youngest great grandson. His name is Joseph. The photo was taken about two years ago.

That is an amazingly cute kid. Congratulations! I want grandchildren someday, trying to talk my sons into marrying young.

[THE LIGHT]

My birthday is on Sunday. I told my wife not to get me anything, since we're going to Disneyland next week......but she never listens. :mrgreen: She's too kind.

So you would defend your family to a certain extent? Like what, perhaps? Would you kill another in self defense, or in defense of your own family, or would you let them (the attacker) kill your family without even a fight?

By the way, I believe there are unique circumstances for each of us, and for each situation. I'm not saying there is a right or a wrong answer (according to me).

It is a very good question... I'm just sayin' for a prophet it is not the best idea. That's why I asked about Jesus and the rest.

Happy Birthday in advance!!!!

http://bestsmileys.com/birthday1/14.gif

[terri910]

You're right, terri. Which is why I said (in response to coMITTed) that the scripture did NOT say anything about someone greater keeping the Church together, but it DID quote Christ as saying that those who believe in Him will do greater things than He (Christ) did.
Do you think coMITTed is thinking of another verse?


were you, coMITTed?

[JenT]

True. And I completely understand that. But I question the quote by Joseph Smith that she brought up earlier. The reason I question it is because I have taken a lot of time to read through copies of Joseph Smith's personal journal, letters he wrote, and other documents, and I see nothing more than a humble servant of Christ in his writings. I question the context and purpose of those few controversial quotes that are used on a regular basis to try and discredit the LDS Church. Honestly, if you were to read through Joseph's writings, you would see that he is very humble, and is very honored to serve the Lord.

I'm not saying Joseph DIDN'T say what he said.........but it doesn't really fit with his other writings. I wonder WHY he said it.........to whom he said it........etc.

Did Portia bring up the same quotes I did? First words in the book of Mormon?

[Reeder]

Do you think coMITTed is thinking of another verse?


were you, coMITTed?

I honestly have no idea. I had never heard of such a verse in response to the quote by Joseph Smith that Portia posted.

[JenT]

I think He was talking about the Holy Spirit.:D

Oh yeah, I forgot about that post, I'm catching up I think...

[THE LIGHT]

Oh yeah, I forgot about that post, I'm catching up I think...

I duno how you read that fast.

[Reeder]

Did Portia bring up the same quotes I did? First words in the book of Mormon?

No, Portia brought up a quote by Joseph Smith from the Journal of Discourses (I believe). Which "first words in the BoM" were you referring to? I believe the first words in the Book of Mormon are on the title page, which was written by the hand of Moroni. The first words in the BoM (starting in the actual "books") were written by the hand of Nephi.

[THE LIGHT]

No, Portia brought up a quote by Joseph Smith from the Journal of Discourses (I believe). Which "first words in the BoM" were you referring to? I believe the first words in the Book of Mormon are on the title page, which was written by the hand of Moroni. The first words in the BoM (starting in the actual "books") were written by the hand of Nephi.

How big is that present????:eek: She didn't wrap herself by now did she? You might check and see if everything is okay.:D

[JenT]

No, you're not being fair. If you don't want others to compare Christ to mortal men and women, then it'd be very decent of you to not do it yourself. Christ had a mission in this life that was vital to the salvation of all mankind. Peter didn't yet understand that, and he tried to save Jesus from the hands of the Roman soldiers and Pharisees. If Christ had been saved, and WASN'T beaten and crucified, then how could He have saved us? Hence, He said "get behind me, Satan." I'm sure Satan wanted nothing more in that moment than to stop the atonement from happening. Christ knew it HAD to happen.

Why do you think Christ said "Get behind me, Satan" again? Are you saying Christ said that at Getsetame? (sorry for the spelling)

[terri910]

I honestly have no idea. I had never heard of such a verse in response to the quote by Joseph Smith that Portia posted.
I didn't remember such a verse in the Bible, either....but I don't have it memorized...*L*

[justamere10]

yes, just trying to lighten things up. Sorry, but I couln't help the way they discribed it. I have never heard of calm being used in the same sentence as fall let alone, as an adjective/adverb. And please, couln't have they just said the guy got shot and not "they recieved four balls"?

At the same time we should all remember that it is a very serious thing. It is always a very sad and trajic when you hear of someone dying in this manner... I would never ever want ANYONE to have to go through what he did.

However, the Bible does talk about us being martyrs for Him and that this is pleasing to him.

Thank-you Light, much appreciated. Don't forget that account was written in 1844, styles were a bit different then.

[JenT]

Christ didn't resist His captors b/c He knew that His sacrifice would mean the atonement of all mankind. Quite a different mission and purpose than was Joseph's, don't you think? But that didn't mean that Christ never got angry with those who profaned the sacred. Money changers in the temple, anyone?

Again, you're comparing apples to cumquats, here. NONE of the Lord's annointed were perfect. They ALL made mistakes, and b/c people look to them as prophets, their errors are far more glaring than would be otherwise. I have a testimony that Joseph Smith is a prophet of God and through him, God was able to restore His priesthood and the fullness of His everlasting gospel on the earth again for the last time before the second coming of Christ. That witness is far too powerful for me to lose faith in Joseph's key role as a prophet just b/c he was a man, said things that were prideful, or did things that were just flat-out wrong. ALL the prophets are guilty of that.

You know the problem here is if I said what I thought... I think when it gets like this it's time to part ways.

[terri910]

You know the problem here is if I said what I thought... I think when it gets like this it's time to part ways.
Discretion is the better part of valor....:hug:

[darknessesedge]

-


Ask a Mormon


In this thread you are invited to interact with justamere10, an active well-informed Mormon, and other Mormons. You are invited to ask any questions you may have about the religious beliefs and practices of the Mormons.

Other of my LDS friends may disagree, but it is my personal belief that a huge amount of misinformation about what Mormons believe is in circulation. It is my contention that behind that misinformation is a lucrative anti-Mormon publishing industry. That industry includes publishers, writers, creators of media, and sellers/distributors of books, pamphlets, DVD's etc. that contradict, belittle, or misrepresent Mormon beliefs.

Distributors of information from that industry, I believe, include some paid ministers of religion whose income, authority, and status is threatened when members of their flock switch to another denomination. Within some denominations members of the Church of JESUS CHRIST have even been accused of not being Christians! Apparently some scholars and leaders have created and preached an unbiblical definition of "Christianity" that tends to exclude the Mormons from Christian fellowship.

It is my hope to help dispel some of that misunderstanding and consequent enmity and division among fellow followers of Jesus Christ. I believe that we are in a dangerous time when all Christians in America face a common enemy. The enemy is the secular progressive agenda to do away with Christian values in America, and terrorists who maim and kill in the name of god and religion. I believe it essential that ALL followers of Jesus Christ unite against that foe. Hopefully this thread will lead to a better understanding of what it is the Mormons really believe, and thus eventually a better union in a common cause.

In this thread I will refer to members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, a 13,000,000 member fast-growing worldwide church headquartered in Salt Lake City, Utah as "Mormons", "Latter-day Saints", "LDS", or "Saints".

I believe that one way for Mormons such as myself to get the truth out about our religious beliefs is to speak up in non-LDS venues such as this discussion board. I am aware that LDS beliefs are often emotionally put down by people and groups who have been exposed only to untrue teachings about the Mormons. Thus a high level of moderation in discussions about the Mormons is required, and hopefully will be evident in this thread as it was in my earlier thread titled: "If Catholics are wrong, are Protestants too?"

http://forums.hannity.com/showthread.php?t=643801 (http://forums.hannity.com/showthread.php?t=643801)


I cannot speak for the LDS Church and I don't claim to know everything there is to know about the Mormons. But I will always write the truth as I understand it. Other Latter-day Saints may wish to add their own points of view or expand on what I write, I hope they do. I believe that I can quite accurately represent the beliefs of many active mainstream Mormons.

In this thread I and other Latter-day Saints WILL refer to the entire canon of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints to help others better understand our beliefs.

It is acceptable to contrast LDS beliefs with yours, and to expound on the meaning of scripture. I expect a lively discussion in which posters of all denominations actively but respectfully defend the things they believe to be true. It is not my intention to try to convert anyone, but we do have a few vacancies if anyone becomes interested. :-) It may take you a year or two to make bishop though...

I have been a faithful member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints for 40 years, having converted from Roman Catholicism at age 22. I have been in thousands of LDS meetings of all kinds, attended temples in many countries, served a foreign mission, listened to other Mormons talk, rubbed shoulders with Mormons, live among Mormons, watch what they do, met Mormon prophets, apostles and general authorities, read books, studied scriptures, and been a lay minister and Melchizedek Priesthood holder for decades.


I KNOW the Mormons!

If they were not of God, I would not be one of them...



You are invited to

ASK A MORMON



-

do mormons belive that jesus died for all mankinds sins?

[JenT]

I duno how you read that fast.


I never did this so much in my life...

LIGHT<---FRYPAN---

[JenT]

do mormons belive that jesus died for all mankinds sins?

LOL dark! new serving coming up!!!

I just spent a ton of time catching up, and the argument got pretty intense but by the time I got here they were all kissyface again, lol my comments must sound like they're coming from a hospital bed, someone unconscious, delerious...

I think I need to shut up, lol

[justamere10]

do mormons belive that jesus died for all mankinds sins?

There was more than just giving up his life, there was much suffering before that in the Garden of Gethsemane and prior to his death. But yes, that was the atonement for the sins of all mankind.

[JenT]

and I never did find where CD got into the thick of it, but then I skipped huge gaps, LOOK at all these pages! sheesh!

seriously, though, introductions are important. That's all I'm gonna say. God be with you!

[THE LIGHT]

I never did this so much in my life...

LIGHT<---FRYPAN---

:)):)):))
Ouuuuuch!! I knew the frypan was lurking around here. Didn't see that one comin':D

[darknessesedge]

There was more than just giving up his life, there was much suffering before that in the Garden of Gethsemane and prior to his death. But yes, that was the atonement for the sins of all mankind.

I take it that you mean yes then.
so to enter heaven if you are a lds..you beleieve that jesus is the way.

[HardHammer]

That was the way they phrased things back then. They "received four balls." Remember, they used "balls" in their guns back then, not bullets as we know them today.

Uh, it may have behooved you to at least spent 30 seconds of reseach before making such a statement.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revolver

Samuel Colt had usable production models of his revolver in 1835, 9 years prior to his death.

[birdonawire]

Uh, it may have behooved you to at least spent 30 seconds of reseach before making such a statement.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revolver

Samuel Colt had usable production models of his revolver in 1835, 9 years prior to his death.


Maybe they couldnt afford the good guns?:D


Ok bad attempt at humor I will go crawl back under my rock now....

[THE LIGHT]

Maybe they couldnt afford the good guns?:D


Ok bad attempt at humor I will go crawl back under my rock now....

Is there room for 2???

[Frazzled]

Uh, it may have behooved you to at least spent 30 seconds of reseach before making such a statement.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revolver

Samuel Colt had usable production models of his revolver in 1835, 9 years prior to his death.

...yeah, but that doesn't mean the old timers didn't still call them balls.....

[THE LIGHT]

...yeah, but that doesn't mean the old timers didn't still call them balls.....

seriously, it was just a joke.

[Frazzled]

seriously, it was just a joke.

Oh, you're in the clear, LIGHT.... I have turned my eye on to Mr 'Uh, it may have behooved you to at least spent 30 seconds of research'.... :)

[THE LIGHT]

Oh, you're in the clear, LIGHT.... I have turned my eye on to Mr 'Uh, it may have behooved you to at least spent 30 seconds of research'.... :)

I know, I am just surprised everyone is taking what I said seriously.:angel:

[JenT]

I know, I am just surprised everyone is taking what I said seriously.:angel:

I knew it! you're gettin nervous 'bout a ban, aren't ya (jab) yes you are!

lookin twice at frazzle (wave) hello! <---sweetly

[orbitaldecay]

I take it that you mean yes then.
so to enter heaven if you are a lds..you beleieve that jesus is the way.

Yep,
No man recieves salvation except through Jesus Christ.

[darknessesedge]

Yep,
No man recieves salvation except through Jesus Christ.

then whats the big diff between a baptist then a lds?
and dont say many wives..
hahahaha

[coMITTed]

then whats the big diff between a baptist then a lds?
and dont say many wives..
hahahaha

LDS believe that God contiues to lead and guide His living Church through modern prophetic revelation, and that the Church is organized as it was originally as Christ set it up--with Christ at its head, but represented on earth by a living prophet (who is authorized to speak for God) and twelve apostles. We also believe that in order for certain ordinances to be valid (i.e., baptism) they must be performed in the name of Christ with the proper priesthood authority, which all worthy male members may hold.

These are probably the most fundamental differences between the LDS Church and all other Christian denominations--modern revelation and priesthood authority.

[justamere10]

I take it that you mean yes then.
so to enter heaven if you are a lds..you beleieve that jesus is the way.

Quite frankly I'm not sure where you are going with this line of questioning. I am a member of the Church of JESUS CHRIST of Latter-day Saints. Everything we do in our church is centered around Jesus Christ.

Should you do a bit of background reading in this thread?

[Reeder]

Why do you think Christ said "Get behind me, Satan" again? Are you saying Christ said that at Getsetame? (sorry for the spelling)

I already explained why. He said it shortly after His suffering in Gathsemane.

[Frazzled]

I know, I am just surprised everyone is taking what I said seriously.:angel:

....and I may have residual sensitivity due to the last time that that discussion came up here. :hug:

[Reeder]

Uh, it may have behooved you to at least spent 30 seconds of reseach before making such a statement.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revolver

Samuel Colt had usable production models of his revolver in 1835, 9 years prior to his death.

Who said anything about a revolver? :think:

[Old Tex]

It is not my plan to discuss it, just to shake my head and wonder...

Likewise, I wonder at how any person who claims to be religious can consistantly show such contempt for another's religious convictions and try to disguise it as humor.

[THE LIGHT]

LDS believe that God contiues to lead and guide His living Church through modern prophetic revelation, and that the Church is organized as it was originally as Christ set it up--with Christ at its head, but represented on earth by a living prophet (who is authorized to speak for God) and twelve apostles. We also believe that in order for certain ordinances to be valid (i.e., baptism) they must be performed in the name of Christ with the proper priesthood authority, which all worthy male members may hold.

These are probably the most fundamental differences between the LDS Church and all other Christian denominations--modern revelation and priesthood authority.

Where in the Bible does it give that authority to the LDS church?

[THE LIGHT]

....and I may have residual sensitivity due to the last time that that discussion came up here. :hug:

Understood.:angel:

:hug:

[Reeder]

Where in the Bible does it give that authority to the LDS church?


Peter, James and John, who received the authority from Christ, bestowed that same authority upon Joseph Smith by the laying on of hands.

I don't believe Joseph Smith was alive during Bible times. :mrgreen:

[justamere10]

Authority in the Church - the divine right to preach, act in the name of God, and direct the Lord's Church.

An LDS Perspective.

Christian churches regard the question of authority — the divine right to preach, act in the name of God and direct the Lord’s church — in different ways. Some, like the Roman Catholic, Orthodox and Coptic churches, emphasize a continuous line of authority from the early apostles. Some who broke away from those churches say they find authority in the inerrancy of the Bible. Others rely heavily on a sense of “calling” to the ministry. Latter-day Saints have a distinctive view of priesthood authority that helps define them.

The New Testament describes the church established by Jesus Christ as one with structure and form. The apostles were at its head, and as recipients both of ordained authority and revelation, they were charged with guiding the church and keeping its doctrines pure as it expanded throughout the known world.

The fact that the original church of Jesus Christ would eventually fall into a state of apostasy was foretold by ancient prophets and by the apostles in Christ’s day.

Although Latter-day Saints believe that divine authority was lost in the ancient church after the death of the apostles and required a restoration by divine intervention, they do not dismiss or diminish the validity of other people’s religious experiences:

- Much of the true doctrine taught by Jesus Christ is found in churches today.

- Members of other churches who accept Jesus Christ and try to live by the principles he taught are entitled to divine guidance and inspiration in their lives.

- Faithful Christians who are not Latter-day Saints still go to heaven, and those who live according to all the truth and light they have will open themselves to further light in the hereafter.

- Anyone who accepts Jesus Christ as the Son of God and the Redeemer of the world is a Christian, regardless of differences in theology.

- The Bible is a revelation from God, of immense value for the powerful impact it has to change the lives of men and women. It is not diminished by the existence of additional scripture.

- For Latter-day Saints, the restoration of priesthood authority in the first half of the 19th century was a literal act through angelic visitations from those who held the authority anciently. Divine authority was restored to The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints through a visitation of the resurrected John the Baptist in 1829 near Harmony (now Oakland), Pennsylvania, and sometime afterwards through the appearance of the resurrected ancient apostles Peter, James and John.

- Today, all members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints who hold the priesthood trace their authority directly to these visitations and bestowal of the priesthood of God on Joseph Smith and early leaders of the Church. A person receiving the priesthood today customarily sits while a person who already holds the priesthood stands and places his hands on the recipient’s head and formally confers that authority.

- The “Apostolic Keys” of priesthood authority today — by which is meant the right to direct the Church — are believed to be vested in the modern apostles in the same way that the ancient apostles had the authority to direct the early church.

Continuous line of authority

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholicism (mhtml:{09272DBB-5804-4926-A7B0-C39813AD4444}mid://00000731/!x-usc:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholicism)
http://newadvent.org/cathen/01626c.htm (mhtml:{09272DBB-5804-4926-A7B0-C39813AD4444}mid://00000731/!x-usc:http://newadvent.org/cathen/01626c.htm) (see under “VI. Apostolate and Episcopate”)
http://orthodoxinfo.com/general/orthodoxy.aspx (mhtml:{09272DBB-5804-4926-A7B0-C39813AD4444}mid://00000731/!x-usc:http://orthodoxinfo.com/general/orthodoxy.aspx)
http://www.coptic.net/EncyclopediaCoptica/ (mhtml:{09272DBB-5804-4926-A7B0-C39813AD4444}mid://00000731/!x-usc:http://www.coptic.net/EncyclopediaCoptica/)Inerrancy of the Bible

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biblical_inerrancy (mhtml:{09272DBB-5804-4926-A7B0-C39813AD4444}mid://00000731/!x-usc:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biblical_inerrancy)Calling to the ministry

www.albertmohler.com/article_read.php?cid=9 (mhtml:{09272DBB-5804-4926-A7B0-C39813AD4444}mid://00000583/!x-usc:http://www.albertmohler.com/article_read.php?cid=9)
http://newsroom.lds.org/ldsnewsroom/eng/background-information/authority-in-the-church (mhtml:{09272DBB-5804-4926-A7B0-C39813AD4444}mid://00000731/!x-usc:http://newsroom.lds.org/ldsnewsroom/eng/background-information/authority-in-the-church)

[terri910]

Where in the Bible does it give that authority to the LDS church?
Bet I know the answer to that one.....

[Old Tex]

yes, I know that. Just couln't help it. Sorry.:angel:


The compulsion to ridicule and belittle seems to be in your nature, light. Is it all that hard to carry on an intellegent conversion for you without having to act the clown?

[Old Tex]

That is an amazingly cute kid. Congratulations! I want grandchildren someday, trying to talk my sons into marrying young.

That's when to have them, when one is young. My wife and I got married when she was eighteen and we had all of ours by the time she was twenty four. Young parents have less money, but they have more energy.

[terri910]

The compulsion to ridicule and belittle seems to be in your nature, light. Is it all that hard to carry on an intellegent conversion for you without having to act the clown?
Some people have more difficulty than others, resisting the impulse to give in to their "nature," Old Tex. For some, it is a quick temper, for some it is acting a clown, for some it is being nasty for nastiness sake, for some it is obstinance.

We all have something we need to be forgiven for, don't you think?

[Old Tex]

do mormons belive that jesus died for all mankinds sins?

Yes, based on the conditions He gave. Faith, Repentence, Baptism, the Holy Ghost, keeping His commandments, etc.

However, all mankind will be saved from physical death with no action on one's part, which is a pretty big free gift itself.

[orbitaldecay]

Yes, based on the conditions He gave. Faith, Repentence, Baptism, the Holy Ghost, keeping His commandments, etc.

However, all mankind will be saved from physical death with no action on one's part, which is a pretty big free gift itself.

A free gift only because of Jesus Christ's atonment and resurrection, I might add.:D

[THE LIGHT]

The compulsion to ridicule and belittle seems to be in your nature, light. Is it all that hard to carry on an intellegent conversion for you without having to act the clown?

Sorry boss.:hug:

[terri910]

Sorry boss.:hug:
made me think of...
http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a355/terri910/JohnCoffey.jpg

[Old Tex]

Uh, it may have behooved you to at least spent 30 seconds of reseach before making such a statement.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revolver

Samuel Colt had usable production models of his revolver in 1835, 9 years prior to his death.

I think that Colt acquired a patent for his single action revolver in 1835, but the pistol Joseph Smith had belonged to the jailer which was a four shot "pepperbox" revolver with percussion caps. The upper room they were in was normally the jailers quarters. He moved them up there and gave Joseph his revolver because the mob was geathering.

When the mob broke in and began running upstairs, Joseph quickly open the door and fired all four barrels, but two misfired. Then the mob came on and fired through the door killing Hyrum and wounding John Taylor.

When Joseph fell out the window, the part of the mob that had broken in, then rushed back downstairs, which saved the lives of the others, although John Taylor had been shot four times. He recovered and eventially became the third President of the LDS Church.

[CID_0687]

I haven't been following the thread that closely so I may have missed this question. Don't Mormons believe that there are different levels of heaven and different levels of hell? I had heard that the leaders in the church were the one's in the throne room with God, but I may be mistaken.

[Old Tex]

A free gift only because of Jesus Christ's atonment and resurrection, I might add.:D

Verily!

[Old Tex]

made me think of...
http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a355/terri910/JohnCoffey.jpg

I saw that movie last week. Tom Hanks is a prison guard and has charge of death row. I can't think of the name of it. Now I won't be able to sleep until I can remember. Goodnight

[CID_0687]

I saw that movie last week. Tom Hanks is a prison guard and has charge of death row. I can't think of the name of it. Now I won't be able to sleep until I can remember. Goodnight
Walkin the mile, Walkin the GREEN MILE.

[THE LIGHT]

I think that Colt acquired a patent for his single action revolver in 1835, but the pistol Joseph Smith had belonged to the jailer which was a four shot "pepperbox" revolver with percussion caps. The upper room they were in was normally the jailers quarters. He moved them up there and gave Joseph his revolver because the mob was geathering.

When the mob broke in and began running upstairs, Joseph quickly open the door and fired all four barrels, but two misfired. Then the mob came on and fired through the door killing Hyrum and wounding John Taylor.

When Joseph fell out the window, the part of the mob that had broken in, then rushed back downstairs, which saved the lives of the others, although John Taylor had been shot four times. He recovered and eventially became the third President of the LDS Church.



What, where, who's a Cult?:D Okay, go ahead and kick me!!!

[Old Tex]

Walkin the mile, Walkin the GREEN MILE.

The Green Mile...that's it. Now I can go to bed. As far as the answer to your question, I'll have to be brief, but this was discussed in great detail earlier on this thread. Look back to about eight oclock last night.

Basically LDS understanding is that there exists three general "Degrees of Glory" and there are many levels within each. Even the lowest one is much better that what we have here in this fallen world, but the top one is where Christ and His Father dwells.

And then there is a place for a few who will not choose to live so they will qualify for a life in one of those mentioned, but it takes a real effort to be bad enough to go there.

[CID_0687]

The Green Mile...that's it. Now I can go to bed. As far as the answer to your question, I'll have to be brief, but this was discussed in great detail earlier on this thread. Look back to about eight oclock last night.

Basically LDS understanding is that there exists three general "Degrees of Glory" and there are many levels within each. Even the lowest one is much better that what we have here in this fallen world, but the top one is where Christ and His Father dwells.

And then there is a place for a few who will not choose to live so they will qualify for a life in one of those mentioned, but it takes a real effort to be bad enough to go there.
OK, thanks, I'll follow back.

[THE LIGHT]

The compulsion to ridicule and belittle seems to be in your nature, light. Is it all that hard to carry on an intellegent conversion for you without having to act the clown?

Have you ever read how God plucked the wheels off of the Egyptians chariots (Exodus 14:24-26)? That was not necessary but God wanted to have some fun with them. Makes me feel good knowing I'm in good company. That must mean God is a clown too.:D

[JenT]

What, where, who's a Cult?:D Okay, go ahead and kick me!!!

Kick ------------------> to the curb

:)

Never thought ya'd ask

[noelle12]

Remember back in the day when we were trying to get this thread to break 1,000? Look at us now! Knocking on the door of 1,500!

[noelle12]

I was going to try to save the next post for someone else, but since no one is taking it, I will, and I'll take this opportunity to say happy birthday to my dad and three of my sisters (all different ages). Happy birthday all!

[justamere10]

I haven't been following the thread that closely so I may have missed this question. Don't Mormons believe that there are different levels of heaven and different levels of hell? I had heard that the leaders in the church were the one's in the throne room with God, but I may be mistaken.

Thank-you for your serious question. This thread is so long now that I think we're routinely going to have to repeat earlier posts from LDS writers, or at least provide a message number for those who haven't been with us the whole time, or who don't want to take the time to read the whole thread.


----
Mormons believe that when the final scene for this planet and its people is complete (sometime after the Millennium) there will be a final judgment and eternal assignments of God's resurrected children (that's all of us thanks to Jesus) to heaven, or for a few very wicked ones, to another place that will be understood only by those who go there.

We believe that in heaven there are many mansions in each of three glorious kingdoms.

1. The Telestial Kingdom - comparable in glory to the light of the stars.

2. The Terrestrial Kingdom - comparable in glory to the light of the moon.

3. The Celestial Kingdom - comparable in glory to the light of the sun.

We believe that there will be progression among the mansions, lower to higher (in degrees of "glory" which probably means knowledge and understanding of the truth, and closeness to God.) But there will be no movement from one kingdom to another kingdom. It has been revealed in our time what is required to qualify for assignments to each of the kingdoms.

The lowest mansion in the lowest kingdom (Telestial) is glorious and beautiful beyond our understanding. Compared to mortal life on this planet, it truly is HEAVEN. Our Father in Heaven loves each of us dearly and is no respecter of persons. But the scales of justice must be weighed and balanced. We all sin, we all fall short. It is only because of the atonement of Jesus Christ and his mercy that any of us can live forever in any kingdom of glory.

Only those who are assigned to the Celestial Kingdom will live in the presence of God the Father. Some of those in lesser than the highest mansions of that highest kingdom will minister as "angels" to those in the lower Terrestrial Kingdom. Some from the Terrestrial Kingdom will minister to those in the lower Telestial Kingdom. Thus the light of God will filter down (in decreasing degrees of glory) to even the lowest mansion of the lowest kingdom.

That's what Mormons believe based on modern scripture and revelation available to us today.

"Faithful Christians who are not Latter-day Saints still go to heaven, and those who live according to all the truth and light they have will open themselves to further light in the hereafter."

http://newsroom.lds.org/ldsnewsroom/eng/background-information/authority-in-the-church (mhtml:{09272DBB-5804-4926-A7B0-C39813AD4444}mid://00000582/!x-usc:http://newsroom.lds.org/ldsnewsroom/eng/background-information/authority-in-the-church)

[justamere10]

Some fellow followers of Jesus Christ who are just arriving at this thread may be coming with preconceived notions of LDS beliefs derived from exposure only to non-LDS websites and the teachings of the misinformed or outright enemies of the LDS Church.

On this "Ask a Mormon" thread there are faithful informed "Mormons" to ask directly what they believe about this or that. You could find out anonymously of course by reading this entire thread, or by browsing at the official LDS website for those who sincerely want to know what the Saints believe:

http://www.mormon.org (mhtml:{09272DBB-5804-4926-A7B0-C39813AD4444}mid://00000588/!x-usc:http://www.mormon.org/)


But whatever you do, before you rush off to yet another anti-Mormon website or source, consider this:

ALL of the active, informed Latter-day Saints writing in this thread accept the Holy Bible as canon and are always prepared to bear bold testimony that JESUS IS THE CHRIST, THE VERY SON OF GOD!

We do not believe that we can convert anyone to the point where they switch denominations. We believe that only the Holy Spirit can do that. So you have nothing to fear by reading and writing on this thread. :-)

There is however a quiet place of solitude where you can anonymously go to learn more about God and His ways. There, far from the madding crowd of web interactivity the Holy Spirit can reach and teach you what God wants you to do now that it's your turn on earth.

You need not be a Mormon or to become a Mormon to learn directly from God. He is no respecter of persons and He loves us all equally. I testify that God can reach you and teach you when you approach Him humbly and sincerely. An online place of safety, solitude, and anonymity to look for your own guidance from God is:

http://www.mormon.org (http://www.mormon.org)


There are ways to verify the commitment of Latter-days Saints writing on this board to their Savior Jesus Christ. With one click you can go to a place where you can read everything a Mormon writing in this thread has ever written on this board.

I'll post below my own link, others can post theirs if they want to, but it's probably not necessary. You will see that I never deny the Christ, and often teach of him. Some of my writings on this board are about secular things such as opposing abortion, some about cornbread (that's an inside thread joke) but check it out for yourself and see if this thread is for you or not.

If you reverence and follow Jesus Christ, or would like to learn more about Him and the answers to the questions: where did I come from, why am I here, where am I going, this thread IS for you.


Link to all of justamere10's posts on this board:

http://forums.hannity.com/search.php?searchid=11796471 (mhtml:{09272DBB-5804-4926-A7B0-C39813AD4444}mid://00000590/!x-usc:http://forums.hannity.com/search.php?searchid=11796471)

-

[HardHammer]

I think that Colt acquired a patent for his single action revolver in 1835, but the pistol Joseph Smith had belonged to the jailer which was a four shot "pepperbox" revolver with percussion caps. The upper room they were in was normally the jailers quarters. He moved them up there and gave Joseph his revolver because the mob was geathering.

When the mob broke in and began running upstairs, Joseph quickly open the door and fired all four barrels, but two misfired. Then the mob came on and fired through the door killing Hyrum and wounding John Taylor.

When Joseph fell out the window, the part of the mob that had broken in, then rushed back downstairs, which saved the lives of the others, although John Taylor had been shot four times. He recovered and eventially became the third President of the LDS Church.

Be this as it may, the revolver had been integrated into society for some years prior to his death in 1844, they were not shooting cap and balls.

As I recall, and please correct if I'm wrong, but I didn't see to many saints in the Holy Bible defending a life that belonged to Jesus. They were glad to give it up for Him, was Joseph Smith? I believe this subjective action by JS told a bigger story than ANY of us know.

[Reeder]

made me think of...
http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a355/terri910/JohnCoffey.jpg


:))

[jasan22]

Be this as it may, the revolver had been integrated into society for some years prior to his death in 1844, they were not shooting cap and balls.

As I recall, and please correct if I'm wrong, but I didn't see to many saints in the Holy Bible defending a life that belonged to Jesus. They were glad to give it up for Him, was Joseph Smith? I believe this subjective action by JS told a bigger story than ANY of us know.

With as much as Joseph had been through in the years prior to his murder, I don't blame him in the least bit. He had been tarred and feathered, held cruelly at Liberty Jail, and turned himself in at Carthage. It tells me more about the jailers, militia and the mob that they so hated him that they murdered him and his brother Hyrum. Let us not forget though, that Jesus' followers didn't just go easily. One drew a sword and sliced the ear off a guard when they came to take Christ in Gethsemane. So, by your reasoning, that action tells us a bigger story than ANY of us know.

Matt 26:36-52.

[justamere10]

Be this as it may, the revolver had been integrated into society for some years prior to his death in 1844, they were not shooting cap and balls.

As I recall, and please correct if I'm wrong, but I didn't see to many saints in the Holy Bible defending a life that belonged to Jesus. They were glad to give it up for Him, was Joseph Smith? I believe this subjective action by JS told a bigger story than ANY of us know.


Joseph Smith was in hiding from combined enemies in the guise of the law when he received letters from friends and family encouraging him to return home. He was a prophet, he knew if he did return that he would be taken and murdered.

Although he may have tried to defend his brother and friends against impossible odds (a mob of 200 armed men out for his blood) Joseph, like Jesus, knew his days on earth were at an end. His work was not yet done but the apostolic keys had been passed on to the Apostles. He knew that the Church of Jesus Christ with apostles and prophets leading and Jesus Christ at the head, as it was anciently, was again on earth. He knew that THIS time, the Church, though it would pass through much tribulation, would not fail.

Joseph went to his death willingly.

"When Joseph went to Carthage to deliver himself up to the pretended requirements of the law, two or three days previous to his assassination, he said: “I am going like a lamb to the slaughter; but I am calm as a summer’s morning; I have a conscience void of offense towards God, and towards all men. I SHALL DIE INNOCENT, AND IT SHALL YET BE SAID OF ME—HE WAS MURDERED IN COLD BLOOD.” (excerpt from post 1359)

[Reeder]

Be this as it may, the revolver had been integrated into society for some years prior to his death in 1844, they were not shooting cap and balls.

As I recall, and please correct if I'm wrong, but I didn't see to many saints in the Holy Bible defending a life that belonged to Jesus. They were glad to give it up for Him, was Joseph Smith? I believe this subjective action by JS told a bigger story than ANY of us know.



Like I said before, I don't believe Joseph Smith was defending his own life when he fired those shots. Why do I believe this?......because just prior to his incarceration, he said "If my life is of no worth to my friends, it is of no worth to me."

OK, so now we have Joseph Smith besically saying that he's willing to give up his life. What else did he say? When Joseph went to Carthage to deliver himself up to the pretended requirements of the law, two or three days previous to his assassination, he said: “I am going like a lamb to the slaughter; but I am calm as a summer’s morning; I have a conscience void of offense towards God, and towards all men. I SHALL DIE INNOCENT, AND IT SHALL YET BE SAID OF ME—HE WAS MURDERED IN COLD BLOOD.” (D&C 135:4)

That being said, I think there is a lot more reason to think he was defending the lives of his friends, rather than his own.

[outdamyboat]

Like I said before, I don't believe Joseph Smith was defending his own life when he fired those shots. Why do I believe this?......because just prior to his incarceration, he said "If my life is of no worth to my friends, it is of no worth to me."

OK, so now we have Joseph Smith besically saying that he's willing to give up his life. What else did he say? When Joseph went to Carthage to deliver himself up to the pretended requirements of the law, two or three days previous to his assassination, he said: “I am going like a lamb to the slaughter; but I am calm as a summer’s morning; I have a conscience void of offense towards God, and towards all men. I SHALL DIE INNOCENT, AND IT SHALL YET BE SAID OF ME—HE WAS MURDERED IN COLD BLOOD.” (D&C 135:4)

That being said, I think there is a lot more reason to think he was defending the lives of his friends, rather than his own.

Noted. ;)

[Reeder]

Noted. ;)

Thats my line! :mrgreen:

[outdamyboat]

Thats my line! :mrgreen:

Touche.

It's a great line, Reeder. Some times I wonder if it's the same as my husband saying, "I hear you". :mrgreen: :hug:

PS: I am teasing totally, I have no animosity or judgement in this history w/ J.S.

[justamere10]

ARTICLES OF FAITH
The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints
Written by Joseph Smith about 1830
History of the Church, Vol. 4, pp. 535—541

http://scriptures.lds.org/en/a_of_f/1 (http://scriptures.lds.org/en/a_of_f/1)



1 We believe in God, the Eternal Father, and in His Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost.

2 We believe that men will be punished for their own sins, and not for Adam’s transgression.

3 We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.

4 We believe that the first principles and ordinances of the Gospel are: first, Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ; second, Repentance; third, Baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; fourth, Laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost.

5 We believe that a man must be called of God, by prophecy, and by the laying on of hands by those who are in authority, to preach the Gospel and administer in the ordinances thereof.

6 We believe in the same organization that existed in the Primitive Church, namely, apostles, prophets, pastors, teachers, evangelists, and so forth.

7 We believe in the gift of tongues, prophecy, revelation, visions, healing, interpretation of tongues, and so forth.

8 We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly; we also believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God.

9 We believe all that God has revealed, all that He does now reveal, and we believe that He will yet reveal many great and important things pertaining to the Kingdom of God.

10 We believe in the literal gathering of Israel and in the restoration of the Ten Tribes; that Zion (the New Jerusalem) will be built upon the American continent; that Christ will reign personally upon the earth; and, that the earth will be renewed and receive its paradisiacal glory.

11 We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may.

12 We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law.

13 We believe in being honest, true, chaste, benevolent, virtuous, and in doing good to all men; indeed, we may say that we follow the admonition of Paul—We believe all things, we hope all things, we have endured many things, and hope to be able to endure all things. If there is anything virtuous, lovely, or of good report or praiseworthy, we seek after these things.

-

[terri910]

Like I said before, I don't believe Joseph Smith was defending his own life when he fired those shots. Why do I believe this?......because just prior to his incarceration, he said "If my life is of no worth to my friends, it is of no worth to me."

OK, so now we have Joseph Smith besically saying that he's willing to give up his life. What else did he say? When Joseph went to Carthage to deliver himself up to the pretended requirements of the law, two or three days previous to his assassination, he said: “I am going like a lamb to the slaughter; but I am calm as a summer’s morning; I have a conscience void of offense towards God, and towards all men. I SHALL DIE INNOCENT, AND IT SHALL YET BE SAID OF ME—HE WAS MURDERED IN COLD BLOOD.” (D&C 135:4)

That being said, I think there is a lot more reason to think he was defending the lives of his friends, rather than his own.
May I ask why this quote of Joseph Smith's is part of the D&C (scripture)?

[noelle12]

May I ask why this quote of Joseph Smith's is part of the D&C (scripture)?

Section 135 of the Doctrine and Covenants (http://scriptures.lds.org/en/dc/135) was written by John Taylor, the 3rd president of the LDS church. He was present in Carthage Jail when Joseph and his brother Hyrum were martyred. My opinion as to why this section was canonized was because of the importance we as members of the LDS church place on the life and mission of the prophet Joseph.

[justamere10]

For those of you following the Chris Stewart "The Great and Terrible" series of novels, the latest one (volume 5) titled "From the End of Heaven" is in LDS bookstores this week. Chris told me this morning that he has already written the final volume. It will be available for purchase this October, 2008.

I recommend the series to any LDS and to nonmembers who are interested in getting a unique LDS perspective that begins in the pre-existence and continues to our time and on into the future of America. The books are fiction, they follow several people who were great friends and valiant defenders of the truth in the pre-existent war against Lucifer. They are then found on earth, searching for and miraculously finding each other during times of war, and even in the latest novel after the nuking of Washington and secret combinations taking over our nation during the ensuing chaos.

It's a riveting story that keeps you on the edge of your seat from a best selling author, a former world record setting USAF pilot who really knows what he's writing about. Chris has written military techno-thrillers that have been selected even by the Book of the Month Club.

I'm not trying to sell Chris's books, just trying to provide a heads up to those who may be interested. Chris Stewart novels have not only provided me hours of great reading entertainment, I have learned much from him about how the forces of evil may be operating in this world, how to recognize them, and how to individually combat them when they're near. Such learning is valuable for all Christians, in my opinion.

The Great and the Terrible series of five books so far, with one yet to come, is available at most LDS bookstores, or online at Deseret Book. I highly recommend that you start with Volume 1.

http://deseretbook.com/store/search?search=chris+stewart (mhtml:{09272DBB-5804-4926-A7B0-C39813AD4444}mid://00000551/!x-usc:http://deseretbook.com/store/search?search=chris+stewart)

[terri910]

Section 135 of the Doctrine and Covenants (http://scriptures.lds.org/en/dc/135) was written by John Taylor, the 3rd president of the LDS church. He was present in Carthage Jail when Joseph and his brother Hyrum were martyred. My opinion as to why this section was canonized was because of the importance we as members of the LDS church place on the life and mission of the prophet Joseph.
...and yet other quotes from Joseph Smith are NOT scripture. Quotes that actually have something to do about the nature of God, etc.

I'm just curious as to why some are and some aren't.

[Reeder]

...and yet other quotes from Joseph Smith are NOT scripture. Quotes that actually have something to do about the nature of God, etc.

I'm just curious as to why some are and some aren't.

My guess......the same reason everything Jesus said and did isn't recorded in the Bible........there would be too much to fit into a single book. :mrgreen:

But in all seriousness, terri, I have no idea.

[noelle12]

...and yet other quotes from Joseph Smith are NOT scripture. Quotes that actually have something to do about the nature of God, etc.

I'm just curious as to why some are and some aren't.

I can't answer your question other than to say that what is canon is what the LDS church stands by 100%. Other things may be true but are opinion or belief only. It's a great question. I'm sorry I can't answer it any better.

[terri910]

My guess......the same reason everything Jesus said and did isn't recorded in the Bible........there would be too much to fit into a single book. :mrgreen:

But in all seriousness, terri, I have no idea.
Man, you have NO idea how glad I am that your first paragraph was kidding....*LOL* I was about to
:wall:before I saw :mrgreen:

[Reeder]

Man, you have NO idea how glad I am that your first paragraph was kidding....*LOL* I was about to
:wall:before I saw :mrgreen:

Ah, yes. The :mrgreen: is a lifesaver at times. :mrgreen::mrgreen::mrgreen:

(I'm stocking up)

[scipio337]

ARTICLES OF FAITH
The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints
Written by Joseph Smith about 1830
History of the Church, Vol. 4, pp. 535—541

http://scriptures.lds.org/en/a_of_f/1 (http://scriptures.lds.org/en/a_of_f/1)



1 We believe in God, the Eternal Father, and in His Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost.Same here. I would however, say that we differ on their nature. I believe The Father, Son and Holy Spirit to be co-eternal, unbegotten, co-equal, and unchanging. I believe Christ laid this out in his Revelation.

2 We believe that men will be punished for their own sins, and not for Adam’s transgression.We are punished by death for Adam's sin:

1 Corinthians 15:21: "For by a man came death and by a man the resurrection of the dead".

and sin:

Romans 5:19 "for as by the disobedience of one man many were made sinners"

3 We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.I agree that through the [i]grace of Christ we are saved, and:

that the initial grace is truly gratuitous and supernatural;
that the human will remains free under the influence of this grace;
that man really cooperates in his personal salvation from sin;
that by justification man is really made just, and not merely declared or reputed so;
that justification and sanctification are only two aspects of the same thing, and not ontologically and chronologically distinct realities;
that justification excludes all mortal sin from the soul, so that the just man is no way liable to the sentence of death at God's judgment-seat.

It is further explained in the Council of Trent, Sess. VI, v-vi

4 We believe that the first principles and ordinances of the Gospel are: first, Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ; second, Repentance; third, Baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; fourth, Laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost.I believe in the priciples of faith as laid out in the Nicene Creed

5 We believe that a man must be called of God, by prophecy, and by the laying on of hands by those who are in authority, to preach the Gospel and administer in the ordinances thereof.I disagee. I believe prophecy is a grace of G*d, and there was never any external rite by which the office of prophet was inaugurated; its exercise was always extraordinary and depended on the immediate call of G*d.

6 We believe in the same organization that existed in the Primitive Church, namely, apostles, prophets, pastors, teachers, evangelists, and so forth.As do I. I believe that same organization has been carried out through history and remains intact.

7 We believe in the gift of tongues, prophecy, revelation, visions, healing, interpretation of tongues, and so forth.As do I, but these personal manifestation will not conflict with the Revealed Gospel of Christ.

8 We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly; we also believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God.Yes to the first, with the added testimony that it is intact and whole.

Of course, I don't agree with your second point. :)
9 We believe all that God has revealed, all that He does now reveal, and we believe that He will yet reveal many great and important things pertaining to the Kingdom of God.

10 We believe in the literal gathering of Israel and in the restoration of the Ten Tribes; that Zion (the New Jerusalem) will be built upon the American continent; that Christ will reign personally upon the earth; and, that the earth will be renewed and receive its paradisiacal glory.I believe Zion is a physical city in Israel, the seat of David's Kingdom. I've lived in Missouri all of my life. If Christ is coming to Independence, he'll be sporting a mullet, Oakleys, and a late 70's Camaro.

11 We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may.As do I. We also reserve people to keep that privlege, in life, and in death.

12 We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law.Not touching that one....

13 We believe in being honest, true, chaste, benevolent, virtuous, and in doing good to all men; indeed, we may say that we follow the admonition of Paul—We believe all things, we hope all things, we have endured many things, and hope to be able to endure all things. If there is anything virtuous, lovely, or of good report or praiseworthy, we seek after these things.

-

Can't really argue with that one.....:)

[Frazzled]

We are punished by death for Adam's sin:



If it weren't for Adam's sin, we wouldn't be here, so isn't that kind of moot?

[justamere10]

...and yet other quotes from Joseph Smith are NOT scripture. Quotes that actually have something to do about the nature of God, etc.

I'm just curious as to why some are and some aren't.

The writings of many LDS apostles and prophets are or were recorded and published in what are known as "Journals of Discourses". Some of what is written in those journals may be revelation from God, some may be inspired words from the wise ones, some may be opinion, and some may be just speculation on how hot or cold it might be next week as an example.

Often LDS critics quote from such journals and commentaries and expect to snare Latter-day Saints and others into thinking they've found a "gotcha" that's going to convert all the Saints over to their denomination or way of thinking. It's just not going to happen, though it might make for some interesting discussion. :-)

The reality is that the LDS Church and its members will be held only to doctrine that is contained in LDS canon, which consists of the Bible, Book of Mormon, Doctrine and Covenants, and Pearl of Great Price.

Occasionally a new revelation to a living Prophet is canonized by the vote of all the members and is added to (usually the D&C). I think the last revelation to be canonized was in 1978.

[scipio337]

If it weren't for Adam's sin, we wouldn't be here, so isn't that kind of moot?I'm not sure whether or not we would be here without the fall, but I believe we wouldn't have sin or death.

[Frazzled]

I'm not sure whether or not we would be here without the fall, but I believe we wouldn't have sin or death.

Without the fall, would Adam and Eve had children, or would they have just remained forever innocent in the Garden?

[basilisk]

Without the fall, would Adam and Eve had children, or would they have just remained forever innocent in the Garden?
Most Christians, I think, believe Adam and Eve could have reproduced without having fallen. Someone may wish to explain why they could not, rather than merely accepting the premise.

[terri910]

The writings of many LDS apostles and prophets are or were recorded and published in what are known as "Journals of Discourses". Some of what is written in those journals may be revelation from God, some may be inspired words from the wise ones, some may be opinion, and some may be just speculation on how hot or cold it might be next week as an example.

Often LDS critics quote from such journals and commentaries and expect to snare Latter-day Saints and others into thinking they've found a "gotcha" that's going to convert all the Saints over to their denomination or way of thinking. It just not going to happen though it might make for some interesting discussion. :-)

The reality is that the LDS Church and its members are to be held only to doctrine that is contained in LDS canon, which consists of the Bible, Book of Mormon, Doctrine and Covenants, and Pearl of Great Price.

Occasionally a new revelation to a living Prophet is canonized by the vote of all the members and is added to (usually the D&C). I think the last revelation to be canonized was in 1978.
*s*

I'm seeing a trend, here. You give me lots of information that seldom answers my question. I'm sure some newbies need to know all the stuff you wrote, but I KNEW all that already.

I said I was curious as to WHY some was considered revelation from God, some inspired words, some opinion, and some speculation, or how it was determined which words came under which headings.

I think, because Reeder, and Old Tex, and some others, know how long I've been asking questions they have a pretty good idea what I already know and can cut to what I'm actually asking.

I don't mind wading through the superfluous stuff too much, if there is an actual answer to my question contained there. I haven't found it in your post quoted above.

[buflineks]

Okay, I've got to ask this.

I'm not trying to pick a fight, nor am I being a smart-aleck. It's just something I'm curious about.

Here goes..................

I have seen a lot of young missionaries in my life. They come from all over the country. While "working" they ride bicycles.

Do they have to provide them, or does the local church provide them?

Just curious.

[noelle12]

Okay, I've got to ask this.

I'm not trying to pick a fight, nor am I being a smart-aleck. It's just something I'm curious about.

Here goes..................

I have seen a lot of young missionaries in my life. They come from all over the country. While "working" they ride bicycles.

Do they have to provide them, or does the local church provide them?

Just curious.

When I was a missionary in Argentina I worked in two areas that had bikes (provided). I don't know who bought them originally, but I know it wasn't me. In my other two areas we walked. I know other missionaries who buy bikes and take them along from area to area. That was my experience, but I don't think everyone's is the same.

[Frazzled]

*s*

I'm seeing a trend, here. You give me lots of information that seldom answers my question. I'm sure some newbies need to know all the stuff you wrote, but I KNEW all that already.

I said I was curious as to WHY some was considered revelation from God, some inspired words, some opinion, and some speculation, or how it was determined which words came under which headings.

I think, because Reeder, and Old Tex, and some others, know how long I've been asking questions they have a pretty good idea what I already know and can cut to what I'm actually asking.

I don't mind wading through the superfluous stuff too much, if there is an actual answer to my question contained there. I haven't found it in your post quoted above.

Well Terri, I for one Have No Idea! :lol: Reeder? Old Tex? Anyone?

...I just didn't want you to think I was keeping anything from you! ;)

[buflineks]

When I was a missionary in Argentina I worked in two areas that had bikes (provided). I don't know who bought them originally, but I know it wasn't me. In my other two areas we walked. I know other missionaries who buy bikes and take them along from area to area. That was my experience, but I don't think everyone's is the same.

thank you noelle.

I saw two on my way home from class today. It was just something that came to mind.

When I grew up in AZ you could always tell the missionaries. It was 105 f. out and two guys would be peddling along with suits and ties. Now that is something I would say is "sacrifice" for the Lord.:lol:

[Reeder]

Okay, I've got to ask this.

I'm not trying to pick a fight, nor am I being a smart-aleck. It's just something I'm curious about.

Here goes..................

I have seen a lot of young missionaries in my life. They come from all over the country. While "working" they ride bicycles.

Do they have to provide them, or does the local church provide them?

Just curious.

I think it depends on where you go, and whether or not past missionaries decide to leave their bikes behind to help out the next missionaries that come in. I know that in some missions, the missionaries have to purchase their own bikes. But, like I said, it all depends on the location, situation, etc.

[Reeder]

thank you noelle.

I saw two on my way home from class today. It was just something that came to mind.

When I grew up in AZ you could always tell the missionaries. It was 105 f. out and two guys would be peddling along with suits and ties. Now that is something I would say is "sacrifice" for the Lord.:lol:

They made them wear suits in AZ??? Wow! I served my mission in Southern Spain, on the coast of the Mediterranean Sea and it was WAAAAAAAAYYYYYYYYY too hot and humid to wear suit jackets. In fact, I would sweat so bad, that at times I had to change my shirt serveral times each day. (I know, everyone wanted to know that :mrgreen:)

[Reeder]

Well Terri, I for one Have No Idea! :lol: Reeder? Old Tex? Anyone?

...I just didn't want you to think I was keeping anything from you! ;)

Don't look at me.......I've already given my response which was almost identical to yours.

[noelle12]

They made them wear suits in AZ??? Wow! I served my mission in Southern Spain, on the coast of the Mediterranean Sea and it was WAAAAAAAAYYYYYYYYY too hot and humid to wear suit jackets. In fact, I would sweat so bad, that at times I had to change my shirt serveral times each day. (I know, everyone wanted to know that :mrgreen:)

My two mission bikes were not very impressive. I ruined most of my dresses as they got caught in the chains. I also spent a lot of time at the shop fixing punctures in the innertube.

[jasan22]

Okay, I've got to ask this.

I'm not trying to pick a fight, nor am I being a smart-aleck. It's just something I'm curious about.

Here goes..................

I have seen a lot of young missionaries in my life. They come from all over the country. While "working" they ride bicycles.

Do they have to provide them, or does the local church provide them?

Just curious.

Paid for mine in D.C., hated riding it in the city during summer. My mission had a standard bike that was fairly inexpensive and cut down on theft. Though my front tire got stolen once.

[jasan22]

They made them wear suits in AZ??? Wow! I served my mission in Southern Spain, on the coast of the Mediterranean Sea and it was WAAAAAAAAYYYYYYYYY too hot and humid to wear suit jackets. In fact, I would sweat so bad, that at times I had to change my shirt serveral times each day. (I know, everyone wanted to know that :mrgreen:)

Our rule was if it was 70 and below, had to wear our jackets.

[Reeder]

Our rule was if it was 70 and below, had to wear our jackets.


Not sure if it EVER got below 70 in my mission. :D

[jasan22]

Not sure if it EVER got below 70 in my mission. :D

Spring and fall were great in MD, hated winter and summer. No matter what you did you could not get cool enough or warm enough with the high humidity. Glad I had a car for just over half.

[noelle12]

Our rule was if it was 70 and below, had to wear our jackets.

The elders (male missionaries) only had to wear jackets on Sunday. During the rest of the week it was shirt sleeves in the summer, and sweaters in the winter.

[jasan22]

I think I still have some of my short sleeve shirts, not white anymore.

[noelle12]

I think I still have some of my short sleeve shirts, not white anymore.

I held on to some of my favorite mission dresses for a while after I came home, even though they were pretty thrashed. It was a combination of being too broke to buy more, and some nostalgia. They have finally all gone on to the great beyond, dress heaven.

[Old Tex]

[quote=Reeder;27111901]
My guess......the same reason everything Jesus said and did isn't recorded in the Bible........there would be too much to fit into a single book. :mrgreen:[quote]

Wouldn't it be interesting to know what Jesus taught His apostles during the forty days that he spent with them after His resurrection?

It must have been the ultimate in MTC training. Probably included an endowment and all other knowledge they needed to know.

[jasan22]

I held on to some of my favorite mission dresses for a while after I came home, even though they were pretty thrashed. It was a combination of being too broke to buy more, and some nostalgia. They have finally all gone on to the great beyond, dress heaven.

I have a box in my garage that has all the letters I wrote home, flip charts, manuals and various stuff from mine. I think I still have my mission directories and blue planners, and my card signed by President Benson. Also met President Hinckley and Elder Maxwell when they came to speak to my mission and the D.C. South mission. O the memories.

[noelle12]

I have a box in my garage that has all the letters I wrote home, flip charts, manuals and various stuff from mine. I think I still have my mission directories and blue planners, and my card signed by President Benson. Also met President Hinckley and Elder Maxwell when they came to speak to my mission and the D.C. South mission. O the memories.

I'm wondering if poor buflineks is regretting asking a mission question. We could easily keep this thread going for a long time with the notorious "mission stories." At least I could.

[jasan22]

I'm wondering if poor buflineks is regretting asking a mission question. We could easily keep this thread going for a long time with the notorious "mission stories." At least I could.

That is true. Worse thing was riding my bike from Bolling Air Force base and getting chased to the MD border. That and my front tire getting stolen.

[Reeder]

I have a box in my garage that has all the letters I wrote home, flip charts, manuals and various stuff from mine. I think I still have my mission directories and blue planners, and my card signed by President Benson. Also met President Hinckley and Elder Maxwell when they came to speak to my mission and the D.C. South mission. O the memories.


I love that area! I used to live out in Gaithersburg, MD. It's been a while. I need to plan another trip back there!

[jasan22]

I love that area! I used to live out in Gaithersburg, MD. It's been a while. I need to plan another trip back there!

Gaithersburg is nice. Spent 3 months in Germantown, 11 in the District, last 7 in La Plata and 4 in College Park. I loved spending time in Georgetown and the Bay. My fiance' and I were thinking of going to D.C. for our honeymoon next yr.

[justamere10]

Same here. I would however, say that we differ on their nature. I believe The Father, Son and Holy Spirit to be co-eternal, unbegotten, co-equal, and unchanging. I believe Christ laid this out in his Revelation.

We are punished by death for Adam's sin:

1 Corinthians 15:21: "For by a man came death and by a man the resurrection of the dead".

and sin:

Romans 5:19 "for as by the disobedience of one man many were made sinners"

I agree that through the [I]grace of Christ we are saved, and:

that the initial grace is truly gratuitous and supernatural;
that the human will remains free under the influence of this grace;
that man really cooperates in his personal salvation from sin;
that by justification man is really made just, and not merely declared or reputed so;
that justification and sanctification are only two aspects of the same thing, and not ontologically and chronologically distinct realities;
that justification excludes all mortal sin from the soul, so that the just man is no way liable to the sentence of death at God's judgment-seat.

It is further explained in the Council of Trent, Sess. VI, v-vi

I believe in the priciples of faith as laid out in the Nicene Creed

I disagee. I believe prophecy is a grace of G*d, and there was never any external rite by which the office of prophet was inaugurated; its exercise was always extraordinary and depended on the immediate call of G*d.

As do I. I believe that same organization has been carried out through history and remains intact.

As do I, but these personal manifestation will not conflict with the Revealed Gospel of Christ.

Yes to the first, with the added testimony that it is intact and whole.

Of course, I don't agree with your second point. :)
9 We believe all that God has revealed, all that He does now reveal, and we believe that He will yet reveal many great and important things pertaining to the Kingdom of God.

I believe Zion is a physical city in Israel, the seat of David's Kingdom. I've lived in Missouri all of my life. If Christ is coming to Independence, he'll be sporting a mullet, Oakleys, and a late 70's Camaro.

As do I. We also reserve people to keep that privlege, in life, and in death.

Not touching that one....



Can't really argue with that one.....:)


It's good to see you back Scip. I always enjoy your well-considered posts. But I must admit I constantly feel a need to be cautious around you because if anyone thinks they're hot on the trail of a "gotcha" you're right in there pushing for it. :-) Which is not meant to be a criticism, just an observation that although almost all fellow followers of Jesus Christ writing in this thread are friendly (possibly largely because of modfear) there really are differences of belief and doctrine that each of us cling to and are not likely to depart from because of anything written on this board. Such is the way of man.


"I believe The Father, Son and Holy Spirit to be co-eternal, unbegotten, co-equal, and unchanging."

LDS believe the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit to be co-eternal. The spirit bodies of Jesus and the Holy Spirit were created by God the Father who later appointed them to be members of the Godhead. I find it difficult for you to believe that Jesus "Son" is unchanging when 2,000 years ago he was born to a mortal mother, grew up as we did, died, and was resurrected. It seems impossible to think of that as unchanged from the spirit body that was his prior to that change.


"We are punished by death for Adam's sin."

Yes, our physical bodies die, but from God's point of view that is not a punishment, it's a returning back to our spiritual state. Because of the atonement of Jesus Christ, the grave is robbed of its victory, our physical bodies are all eventually resurrected to be united once more with our spirit body, never again to be separated.


"I agree that through the grace of Christ we are saved, and: that the initial grace is truly gratuitous and supernatural; that the human will remains free under the influence of this grace; that man really cooperates in his personal salvation from sin; that by justification man is really made just, and not merely declared or reputed so; that justification and sanctification are only two aspects of the same thing, and not ontologically and chronologically distinct realities; that justification excludes all mortal sin from the soul, so that the just man is no way liable to the sentence of death at God's judgment-seat. It is further explained in the Council of Trent, Sess. VI, v-vi."

You base your understanding not on the bible, but on the interpretations of the bible and the decrees of a council of men. Latter-day Saints base their understanding on the bible and on additional revelations God has made to man in our time.

LDS believe that the grace of Jesus Christ is gratuitous as far as resurrection is concerned. Every single human being who now, has ever, or ever will be born on this planet will be resurrected. Human will, the freedom and power to choose for ourselves, is a great and terrible gift from God. By our choices we wend our way to heaven, by our choices we dig our way to hell.

Through the process of sincere repentance after sin, man cooperates in his personal salvation from sin. We will be judged in the manner we ourselves judge. Thus by justification we are (as I understand it at the moment) made just "and not merely declared or reputed so". I am not a lawyer or a learned man so I don't understand "and not ontologically and chronologically distinct realities." (Is that from the Westminster Creed? :-) I won't go any further, I am not among those councils of wise men, nor, with respect, bound to their conclusions and decrees.


"I believe in the principles of faith as laid out in the Nicene Creed."

Restoration Christians are not bound to the manmade Nicene Creed. We believe that authorized apostles and prophets again walk the earth and that God speaks to them His mind and will for His children on earth today.


"I disagee. I believe prophecy is a grace of G*d, and there was never any external rite by which the office of prophet was inaugurated; its exercise was always extraordinary and depended on the immediate call of G*d."

Indeed, prophecy is one of the gifts of the Spirit, as is healing, tongues, discernment, etc. The office of apostle/prophet has always been handed down by the laying on of hands of other apostles. There is ample evidence of that in the bible. Yes, those men were called of God before being ordained. There is nothing extraordinary about apostles being the leaders of the Church of Jesus Christ. That is clearly evident in the New Testament.



"As do I. I believe that same organization has been carried out through history and remains intact."

My guess is that you believe the Roman Catholic Church today is the same as the Church of Jesus Christ that he organized. But where are those authorized apostles and prophets again?


"Yes to the first, with the added testimony that it is intact and whole."

Then you declare that Protestants do not have a whole bible because the Catholic bible is quite different than the King James version for example.


"I believe Zion is a physical city in Israel, the seat of David's Kingdom. I've lived in Missouri all of my life. If Christ is coming to Independence, he'll be sporting a mullet, Oakleys, and a late 70's Camaro."

My understanding is that there is to be a restitution of all things in the last days before the Millennium. That would mean that as it was before the days of Peleg, the waters on this planet will be gathered in the north and the land masses united. Mere speculation on my part, but I think Missouri might be in for a cleansing if the Gulf of Mexico moves to the north. Probably not too many Camaro's left for anyone to drive down a freeway. :-)

LDS believe that Zion is where the pure in heart dwell. However, during the Millennium the Lord will reside in Old Jerusalem and the center of his theocratic government will be in New Jerusalem which is in newly cleansed Missouri where the Garden of Eden was before the drifting off of continents.


"As do I. We also reserve people to keep that privilege, in life, and in death."

Worship what you may, but during the Millennium at least, every knee will bow to Jesus Christ.

[justamere10]

I'm not sure whether or not we would be here without the fall, but I believe we wouldn't have sin or death.

In which case the entire Plan of Salvation that Father offered to us at the great council in heaven would be defeated and Satan would win. There must be an opposition in all things for us to make choices by which we may be judged. If there was no sin and no death we would not be human beings, and there would not be a Savior.

[justamere10]

*s*

I'm seeing a trend, here. You give me lots of information that seldom answers my question. I'm sure some newbies need to know all the stuff you wrote, but I KNEW all that already.

I said I was curious as to WHY some was considered revelation from God, some inspired words, some opinion, and some speculation, or how it was determined which words came under which headings.

I think, because Reeder, and Old Tex, and some others, know how long I've been asking questions they have a pretty good idea what I already know and can cut to what I'm actually asking.

I don't mind wading through the superfluous stuff too much, if there is an actual answer to my question contained there. I haven't found it in your post quoted above.

Sorry, if you already know everything I know there is no point in my responding to your posts anymore. I'll try to remember that. :-) But on second thought, maybe not everyone knows everything that I know and if I respond to your posts then others get to learn a bit more from me. Hmmm...

[justamere10]

Well Terri, I for one Have No Idea! :lol: Reeder? Old Tex? Anyone?

...I just didn't want you to think I was keeping anything from you! ;)

Living apostles when they speak in any meeting are listened to with great attention and respect because God does speak to them for the benefit of His children on earth in our time.

When they speak in General Conference we accept what they say as the mind and will of God and we take that to our hearts and our homes as counsel and advice as if it was from God Himself, which we believe it to be because they pray and carefully consider what they are going to say in general conference.

However, that which is not canon is that which we are not bound to.

[justamere10]

The elders (male missionaries) only had to wear jackets on Sunday. During the rest of the week it was shirt sleeves in the summer, and sweaters in the winter.

Even at the Missionary Training Center in Provo, Utah in the summer unless it's to go to a formal meeting or Sunday, short sleeve shirts are the norm for men.