Ask a Mormon

[noelle12]

I'm guessing it's because adoption isn't considered a religious exercise, but a legal one....maybe?

But LDS Family Services only places children with couples who have been sealed in the temple. Does LDS Family Services have a similar situation as the Catholic Church regarding adoption in the Boston area?

[scipio337]

Ask the courts in Boston that question. I for one am flabbergasted that the RCC was forced to make that choice, bu they were.It never went to court. They weren't "forced" to do anything.

Stopping it was largely a financial decision. Adoptions accounted for 4% of the Boston Catholic Charities annual budget, and their biggest funders (the United Way, others) were threatening to drop their funding. Catholic Charities and the Boston Archdiocese decided that they couldn't spend the time or money on a lawsuit, and wanted to continue with their food pantries and other programs, so they dropped the service.

http://www.boston.com/news/local/articles/2006/03/11/catholic_charities_stuns_state_ends_adoptions/

[Snagglepuss]

It never went to court. They weren't "forced" to do anything.

Stopping it was largely a financial decision. Adoptions accounted for 4% of the Boston Catholic Charities annual budget, and their biggest funders (the United Way, others) were threatening to drop their funding. Catholic Charities and the Boston Archdiocese decided that they couldn't spend the time or money on a lawsuit, and wanted to continue with their food pantries and other programs, so they dropped the service.

http://www.boston.com/news/local/articles/2006/03/11/catholic_charities_stuns_state_ends_adoptions/Semantics....they obviously felt they had no other viable choice. That equates to 'being forced' in my book. Though I will concede that I was aparently mistaken as to the source of the problem being the courts in this case, rather than liberal state legistature.

[Old Tex]

Semantics....they obviously felt they had no other viable choice. That equates to 'being forced' in my book. Though I will concede that I was apparently mistaken as to the source of the problem being the courts in this case, rather than liberal state legislature.

A few years ago something like this would not have happened because we had different people with different morals in this country. Those who learned to be self reliant during the "Great Depression" and those who are part of the "Greatest Generation" who worked together to win World War ll are dying out and the "Woodstock Generation" started the slide to where we find ourself today, and we are still sliding.

Will the pendelum start to swing the other way before the country is in ruin? Will it be in time to recover what our founding fathers gave us and what our grandparents saved for us?

[noelle12]

A few years ago something like this would not have happened because we had different people with different morals in this country. Those who learned to be self reliant during the "Great Depression" and those who are part of the "Greatest Generation" who worked together to win World War ll are dying out and the "Woodstock Generation" started the slide to where we find ourself today, and we are still sliding.

Will the pendelum start to swing the other way before the country is in ruin? Will it be in time to recover what our founding fathers gave us and what our grandparents saved for us?

I agree that we are sliding, and because it is gradual, so many people don't notice or acknowledge it.

[oldtimer]

I agree that we are sliding, and because it is gradual, so many people don't notice or acknowledge it.Agreed.

[scipio337]

A few years ago something like this would not have happened because we had different people with different morals in this country. Those who learned to be self reliant during the "Great Depression" and those who are part of the "Greatest Generation" who worked together to win World War ll are dying out and the "Woodstock Generation" started the slide to where we find ourself today, and we are still sliding.

Will the pendelum start to swing the other way before the country is in ruin? Will it be in time to recover what our founding fathers gave us and what our grandparents saved for us?With all due respect, oldtimer, those who lived through the Depression and who were part of the "Greatest Generation" apparently gave at least implicit approval to treating people of a different skin color as something less than a full human, which including banning them from swimming pools, schools, water fountains, or what have you, and making it a criminal offense for a white person to marry one. I'd call that quite a bit of a moral flaw.

I'm no fan of hippie philosophy, but while I respect the work ethic, selflessness, and patriotism of the prior generation, they were by no means perfect.

[noelle12]

With all due respect, oldtimer, those who lived through the Depression and who were part of the "Greatest Generation" apparently gave at least implicit approval to treating people of a different skin color as something less than a full human, which including banning them from swimming pools, schools, water fountains, or what have you, and making it a criminal offense for a white person to marry one. I'd call that quite a bit of a moral flaw.

I'm no fan of hippie philosophy, but while I respect the work ethic, selflessness, and patriotism of the prior generation, they were by no means perfect.

I think it is safe to say that no person, no generation, no society is perfect. Everyone has strengths and weaknesses. I am probably a little guilty of looking to the past with a little too much nostalgia. (My parents always told me that "back in their day everything was better. :mrgreen:)

That being said, today's generation seems to be moving away from self-reliance, away from the ability to overcome adversity relying first upon their own efforts.

I truly believe that our loving and omnipotent Heavenly Father will help us when we need it, and many times what we need is to expend our own effort.

It is like how I see the role of the Savior and His atonement. We cannot on our own be made perfect and clean. We rely on the atoning blood of Jesus Christ. However, we should not sit back and say "I believe in Jesus Christ, and He will save me" but do nothing. We should strive to improve, strive to be better, strive to be like the Savior, and what we cannot do on our own, He will do for us.

[Frazzled]

But LDS Family Services only places children with couples who have been sealed in the temple. Does LDS Family Services have a similar situation as the Catholic Church regarding adoption in the Boston area?

Good question. Does Catholic Services take public money? Is this governed by state law? I guess I just don't know enough to really comment (but when does that ever stop me :mrgreen:)

[Frazzled]

As far as the trend away from self-reliance. It seems to me that we are all so busy comparing what we have to what our neighbor has, and whether or not life has been fair to us, that many of us have lost sight of what is really important .................. I am guilty as the next guy, although I am trying to continually pull myself away from the mindset of our instant gratification, hyper-consumerism society.......it is difficult.............I flirt with the edges constantly.

[Old Tex]

With all due respect, oldtimer, those who lived through the Depression and who were part of the "Greatest Generation" apparently gave at least implicit approval to treating people of a different skin color as something less than a full human, which including banning them from swimming pools, schools, water fountains, or what have you, and making it a criminal offense for a white person to marry one. I'd call that quite a bit of a moral flaw.

I'm no fan of hippie philosophy, but while I respect the work ethic, selflessness, and patriotism of the prior generation, they were by no means perfect.

I never implied that either generation was perfect, Scipio, but I will remind you that it was in a large part the WW ll generation who corrected segregation. They were still in their thirties and forties in the 1960s. I was raised in the segregated South and expierenced it personally.

[orbitaldecay]

Found this on youtube, thought it was pretty funny and pretty relevant.;)

Al Queda Learning from Mormon Missionaries:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=KLyyO6Wp1ig

Of course, Youtube Disclaimer: Other Videos, Links, and/or comments may have offensive content.

[Predecessor]

Found this on youtube, thought it was pretty funny and pretty relevant.;)

Al Queda Learning from Mormon Missionaries:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=KLyyO6Wp1ig

Of course, Youtube Disclaimer: Other Videos, Links, and/or comments may have offensive content.

Too funny :)

[Frazzled]

Okay - I have one.......

Is it a Utah accent or a Utah Mormon accent and why?

[SuperD]

Okay - I have one.......

Is it a Utah accent or a Utah Mormon accent and why?

you can get regional accents even in Utah so its hard to tell!

[noelle12]

Okay - I have one.......

Is it a Utah accent or a Utah Mormon accent and why?

I always thought that everybody has an accent except for me. :whistle:

[Reeder]

I always thought that everybody has an accent except for me. :whistle:

Swallow those "T's."

"Mou - (swallow) - ans" ..........not "Mountains."

[tracifish]

Is everyone West of the Rockies a Mormon (almost)?

[Reeder]

Is everyone West of the Rockies a Mormon (almost)?


Negatory

[tracifish]

Negatory

Okay. Thank you.

[noelle12]

Swallow those "T's."

"Mou - (swallow) - ans" ..........not "Mountains."

I think I am the only person in the world who pronounces the "t" in often.

[Snagglepuss]

Is everyone West of the Rockies a Mormon (almost)?
If they were, it's a good bet that California, Oregon, and Washington would swing Republican in the General Elections. ;)

[Snagglepuss]

I think I am the only person in the world who pronounces the "t" in often.Not so.....:mrgreen:

[RayMan]

Not so.....:mrgreen:

How offen do you pronounce it like that?

[RayMan]

Is everyone West of the Rockies a Mormon (almost)?

How Mormonish do you have to be in order to be an almost Mormon? :whistle:

[tracifish]

How Mormonish do you have to be in order to be an almost Mormon? :whistle:

You got me there. :doh:

[noelle12]

I think I am the only person in the world who pronounces the "t" in often.

I also pronounce each syllable in comfortable. I say com-for-ta-ble. (But I don't pause between each syllable.) It never occurred to me that others pronounce it "comfterble" until one of my piano students started giving me a hard time about it. I looked it up, and both pronunciations are acceptable.

[noelle12]

How Mormonish do you have to be in order to be an almost Mormon? :whistle:

68%? That's just a guess.

[Old Tex]

I also pronounce each syllable in comfortable. I say com-for-ta-ble. (But I don't pause between each syllable.) It never occurred to me that others pronounce it "comfterble" until one of my piano students started giving me a hard time about it. I looked it up, and both pronunciations are acceptable.

My sister, who has been in PA for forty years, says that I sound just like the guy in the Motel 6 commercials who says, We'll leave the light on for ya?. She don't realize that she used to sound like that too.

[Snagglepuss]

How offen do you pronounce it like that?Very ofTen. :mrgreen:

[noelle12]

Very ofTen. :mrgreen:

Thanks Snags. I feel vindicated now.

[justamere10]

Is everyone West of the Rockies a Mormon (almost)?


There are about 750,000 Latter-day Saints living in California, Nevada 170,000, Oregon 143,000, Washington 248,000

http://www.newsroom.lds.org/ldsnewsroom/eng/statistical-information#current

[HokieCougarVandal]

There are about 750,000 Latter-day Saints living in California, Nevada 170,000, Oregon 143,000, Washington 248,000

... and Waldo can be found among all those ... if you're persistent enough.
:mrgreen:

[justamere10]

... and Waldo can be found among all those ... if you're persistent enough.
:mrgreen:

Is Waldo LDS then? Hadn't heard...

[noelle12]

Has anybody out there been doing the family search indexing?

Our bishopric challenged the youth to a contest. If the bishopric does more names, the young women have to clean the church building. If the young women do more names, they are going to give us an "awesome pizza party." They issued the same challenge to the young men.

They are letting the leaders participate. It's lucky for the girls, because on their own, they would be cleaning the church, no question. We set the goal for each young woman to do 50 names per week.

[bamboobrother]

Some of our responses probably aren't very fair b/c you, being newer to the boards, don't know yet who's LDS and who's not. I'll just say that prior to the polygamy tangent, most of the questions posted thusfar have been presented by your fellow brothers and sisters.

I am enjoying this thread very much. As someone who, while not being new to the forums, isn't exactly an Old Timer either, it is sometimes difficult to me to identify who is and who is not LDS, Catholic, etc. Of course, some of that is apparent by the nature of people's comments, statements, questions, etc., but not always. If it isn't too much to ask, and if this falls within the guidelines and rules of the forum, would people be willing to identify themselves as to which group they belong? If you've already done so, I apologize for asking again. I want to comment on so many things in this thread, but I am trying to read through them all so as not to repeat others' questions or answers! I'm up to page 24 of 100 something, I believe. ;) Thanks again!

[bamboobrother]

I'm up to page 24 of 100 something, I believe.

Ok, so now I'm replying to mysefl LOL. I see that it is not up to page 405. I think, perhaps, I will skip to the last 50 pages or so. If I repeat a question that has heretofore been asked or answered, I offer my sincere apologies.

[Reeder]

I am enjoying this thread very much. As someone who, while not being new to the forums, isn't exactly an Old Timer either, it is sometimes difficult to me to identify who is and who is not LDS, Catholic, etc. Of course, some of that is apparent by the nature of people's comments, statements, questions, etc., but not always. If it isn't too much to ask, and if this falls within the guidelines and rules of the forum, would people be willing to identify themselves as to which group they belong? If you've already done so, I apologize for asking again. I want to comment on so many things in this thread, but I am trying to read through them all so as not to repeat others' questions or answers! I'm up to page 24 of 100 something, I believe. ;) Thanks again!

I'm LDS......can I assume the same of you??

[Koushi Shinigami]

If it isn't too much to ask, and if this falls within the guidelines and rules of the forum, would people be willing to identify themselves as to which group they belong?


Check out this thread.


http://forums.hannity.com/showthread.php?t=561041

[justamere10]

I am enjoying this thread very much. As someone who, while not being new to the forums, isn't exactly an Old Timer either, it is sometimes difficult to me to identify who is and who is not LDS, Catholic, etc. Of course, some of that is apparent by the nature of people's comments, statements, questions, etc., but not always. If it isn't too much to ask, and if this falls within the guidelines and rules of the forum, would people be willing to identify themselves as to which group they belong? If you've already done so, I apologize for asking again. I want to comment on so many things in this thread, but I am trying to read through them all so as not to repeat others' questions or answers! I'm up to page 24 of 100 something, I believe. ;) Thanks again!

I'm LDS.

[bamboobrother]

I'm LDS......can I assume the same of you??

You are, in fact, correct in that assumtion....

[bamboobrother]

Thank you!

[noelle12]

I am enjoying this thread very much. As someone who, while not being new to the forums, isn't exactly an Old Timer either, it is sometimes difficult to me to identify who is and who is not LDS, Catholic, etc. Of course, some of that is apparent by the nature of people's comments, statements, questions, etc., but not always. If it isn't too much to ask, and if this falls within the guidelines and rules of the forum, would people be willing to identify themselves as to which group they belong? If you've already done so, I apologize for asking again. I want to comment on so many things in this thread, but I am trying to read through them all so as not to repeat others' questions or answers! I'm up to page 24 of 100 something, I believe. ;) Thanks again!

I am LDS.

I look forward to your additions. I think this thread could use some fresh perspective.

[hillplus]

I am LDS. New to Hannity, I post occasionally. I am often entertained by fellow posters, sometimes frustrated.
I am female. Most of the time I am thought to be male, default thought, I guess.

[Old Tex]

I am old, retired, LDS, and born in Texas.

[bamboobrother]

First, thanks to all of you who told me a little about your beliefs. That helps me a lot. I have posted a number of times, though it has been a while since I've had the time to give the forums serious consideration. As I now have more time to devote to that pursuit, please allow me to give a little background as to who I am and what some of my beliefs are. For those of you who may remember some of this information from long ago, I apologize. I also wanted to comment a little on Joseph Smith and others as it seems to fit a lot of what has been gone over in this long and lovely thread.

I wanted to begin by talking a little about the imperfections of Joseph Smith.

A great majority of members of the LDS faith, in my opinion, wrongly choose not to have an open dialogue about Joseph Smith, his foibles, and the problems as well as inconsistencies with the LDS church's past. On the one hand, I can understand why church leaders wish to steer people away from such lines of discourse. Why challenge people's faith by looking at things in the church's not-so-distant beginnings that may prove inconsistant with what they've been raised to believe? I contend...why not?

Perhaps it is due to the fact that I grew up Catholic in a nearly 100% LDS community that makes me question and explore, but it is because of the church's less than perfect past (especially with regards to Joseph Smith) and not in spite of it that I am attracted to the church. It drives me to distraction when so many members of the LDS church place Joseph Smith on a pedestal that is all but unreachable to lay members. Granted, he did remarkable things. I am sure that there are few out there who would disagree that he changed the world with his actions. Whether or not you consider those changes good or bad is up to you, but create change he did. He once said that "my name should be had for good and evil among all nations."

This has been a theme for me throughout my spiritual journey. When people ask me to what religion I belong, I often jokingly tell them that I am a Catholic Mormon with Buddhist tendencies. I have always been drawn to what I can relate. This is true of Siddhartha, Mohammed, Mother Theresa, Thomas Merton, Moses, Aaron, Lot, Joseph Smith, and the list goes on and on. Not one person that I have mentioned was perfect, and they should not be treated as such. With the exception of one, I cannot relate to someone so far above me as to render them untouchable. That one exception is Jesus Christ. But then again (and also my opinion), he was and is the Son of God.

When I study the lives of the prophets, including Joseph Smith, and I find that they did outrageous things that, in some cases, completly fly in the face of God's commandments, it does little to challenge my faith. On the contrary, it strengthens it. So many prophets of old did alarmingly immoral acts. A lot of these have been discussed in this thread ad infinim. So many of them lied, cheated, and commited acts of burgle. I am not saying that I have done any of these things (then again, I am not saying that I haven't), but I can relate to them. These men and women were all human. They all had cause for repentance. They were all loved by God for who they were, despite their actions. I am certainly not condoning immoral and illegal acts...far from it. But I am also not running from the truth. If the LDS church is true (or contains elements of truth) as I believe it to be, then there is no cause for sticking its past in the back of a dark closet. Let it out...let people learn from the past and make their own choices. Brigham Young once said (and I am sorry that I do not have a direct quote) that people with no prior knowledge of the church can go on an honest quest for truth, searching anywhere in the world and among any teachings, and, if they do so with honest hearts and intent, they will eventually be led to the church. Now I do not doubt that many of you out there wholeheartedly disagree with that notion, and that is ok. The point is that he wasn't afraid to let people find out for themselves. Also (and I've mentioned this in an earlier post, but it merits further mention), Joseph Smith once said, "The things of God are of deep import; and time and experience and careful and ponderous and solemn thoughts can only find them out. Thy mind, 0 man, if thou wilt lead a soul unto salvation, must stretch as high as the utmost heavens and search into and contemplate the darkest abyss and the broad expanse of eternity—thou must commune with God..." I love this statement. I have always flirted with the abyss. I am most comfortable there. I only wish more members of my faith (and others for that matter) would feel as comfortable.

I have more to say on a trend I've noticed among both LDS as well as non-LDS scholars to start digging into the past, but I have said enough already. If you've made it to this portion of the post, I commend you. I am sorry if I am too long winded. I look forward to all of your comments and thoughts.

[noelle12]

I wanted to begin by talking a little about the imperfections of Joseph Smith.


I think Joseph Smith would be the first to admit his imperfections.

Doctrine and Covenants Section 10 (http://scriptures.lds.org/en/dc/10) contains a very strong chastisement of Joseph Smith. If he wanted people to think he did not have flaws, he probably would not have included this section.

Verses 1 and 2 are as follows:

1 Now, behold, I say unto you, that because you delivered up those writings which you had power given unto you to translate by the means of the Urim and Thummim, into the hands of a wicked man, you have lost them.
2 And you also lost your gift at the same time, and your mind became darkened.

[bamboobrother]

I think Joseph Smith would be the first to admit his imperfections.

I agree with you 100%. This is one of the things that endears me to Joseph Smith. He wasn't one to try to say he was something that he was not. The more I have read of his personal writings and conversations with contemporaries, both supporters as well as critics, the more I have come to respect and love him as a person as well as a prophet.

[justamere10]

I agree with you 100%. This is one of the things that endears me to Joseph Smith. He wasn't one to try to say he was something that he was not. The more I have read of his personal writings and conversations with contemporaries, both supporters as well as critics, the more I have come to respect and love him as a person as well as a prophet.

That was my experience too the first time I read the entire Documentary History of the Church. Joseph was God's chosen Prophet of the Restoration, but still a man.

There's hope for me yet. :-)

[hillplus]

I think Joseph Smith would be the first to admit his imperfections.



I grew up in the church and when I began my search for my own testimony as all must do, I had a real hard time with Joseph Smith. This partly stems from my antagonistic father who chose to share with me all of the negative stuff he could find about J.S.
I actually had a firm testimony of the Book of Mormon long before I believed in J.S. as a prophet. I know, strange, since you can't have one without the other.
Maybe people become defensive in regards to J.S. because he is held in such contempt by so many people. I will not tell you the nasty jabs and jokes I have heard. Fulfills prophecy. His name is most certainly spoken of for good and evil.

[Ephraimsdaughter]

It is only non-Mormons who expect Joseph Smith to be "perfect" because that is their view of anyone who is a prophet. Joseph never said he was perfect, never said he was sinless. In fact he Bible says that if one were to say they have no sin then the truth is not in them [see 1 John 1:8].

[mrcuff]

... it is sometimes difficult to me to identify who is and who is not LDS, Catholic, etc. Of course, some of that is apparent by the nature of people's comments, statements, questions, etc., but not always. If it isn't too much to ask, and if this falls within the guidelines and rules of the forum, would people be willing to identify themselves as to which group they belong?

LDS from birth. Maternal and paternal ancestors crossed the plains. Oldish. Mission to Guatemala-El Salvador.

[Ephraimsdaughter]

I am enjoying this thread very much. As someone who, while not being new to the forums, isn't exactly an Old Timer either, it is sometimes difficult to me to identify who is and who is not LDS, Catholic, etc. Of course, some of that is apparent by the nature of people's comments, statements, questions, etc., but not always. If it isn't too much to ask, and if this falls within the guidelines and rules of the forum, would people be willing to identify themselves as to which group they belong? If you've already done so, I apologize for asking again... Thanks again!

I am new to this site. I am an LDS convert of 28 years.

[Old Tex]

I wanted to begin by talking a little about the imperfections of Joseph Smith.



You will have to do without me on this subject. I have heard all that I want to hear on this. I went to complete acceptance long ago. Sure, he was human and never claimed to be free from imperfections, but I see no point on dwelling on them.

[Old Tex]

I am new to this site. I am an LDS convert of 28 years.

Welcome to the discussions, daughter.

[37818]

Explain eternal matter. And how your gods are subject to it.

I believe anything in existence is NOT God. And [it is my belief] I know Existence is God Himself. And it is very simple, if Existence (Jehovah) is not God there is no God.

[Old Tex]

Explain eternal matter. And how your gods are subject to it.

I believe anything in existence is NOT God. And [it is my belief] I know Existence is God Himself. And it is very simple, if Existence (Jehovah) is not God there is no God.

1. Describe eternal matter.

2. Who or what are "my gods" that you speak of?

3. Above you say that "Existence is God Himself", and you also say that "anything in existence is NOT God".

I'm having a problem understanding just what you are talking about. Can you elaborate?

[hillplus]

Explain eternal matter. And how your gods are subject to it.

I believe anything in existence is NOT God. And [it is my belief] I know Existence is God Himself. And it is very simple, if Existence (Jehovah) is not God there is no God.

I am with Old Tex, not really grasping what you are saying.

[37818]

1. Describe eternal matter.
I thought this was to ask a Mormon? www.mormonwiki.org/Creation


2. Who or what are "my gods" that you speak of?Is it not true that Mormons believe, God the Father, the Son of God are not the same god? And is there not the teaching held of exultation? The ablity to become a god as God became God?


3. Above you say that "Existence is God Himself", and you also say that "anything in existence is NOT God".

I'm having a problem understanding just what you are talking about. Can you elaborate?Existence accounts for everthing in existence. God's name "Jehovah" means "Existence." The ancient Hebrews worshiped "Existence" as God. Anything which has to exist in existence is NOT God.

[hillplus]

I thought this was to ask a Mormon? www.mormonwiki.org/Creation

Is it not true that Mormons believe, God the Father, the Son of God are not the same god? And is there not the teaching held of exultation? The ablity to become a god as God became God?

Existence accounts for everthing in existence. God's name "Jehovah" means "Existence." The ancient Hebrews worshiped "Existence" as God. Anything which has to exist in existence is NOT God.

I will try to answer the parts of the questions that I understand. We believe that matter is eternal, yes. This fits in nicely with the laws of science stating that matter can neither be created nor destroyed.

LDS people do believe in Eternal progression and that we can one day become like our Father. Are we not commanded to be perfect even as our Father is perfect? When God comes again, will we not be like Him? Are we not the sons and daughters of God? what does that mean?

God the Father and His son Jesus Christ and the Holy Ghost are one in purpose, part of the same Godhead, they are not the same essence.

Don't understand what you are saying in your third paragraph.

[oldtimer]

I wanted to begin by talking a little about the imperfections of Joseph Smith.

A great majority of members of the LDS faith, in my opinion, wrongly choose not to have an open dialogue about Joseph Smith, his foibles, .......why not?It is easy to discuss others imperfections. The question is can we can honestly discuss our own imperfections before we judge others? For many, we cannot. I believe I am guilty as I charge many to be.

Joseph Smith was just a man. A man that God called to do a specific thing at a specific time for a specific purpose. Joseph Smith like Adam, Moses, Elijah, John the Baptist, Peter and all other prophets was not perfect.

[37818]

If you were to explain the difference between the evangelical christians view of the Godhead and the LDS virew. What would you explain?

[hillplus]

If you were to explain the difference between the evangelical christians view of the Godhead and the LDS virew. What would you explain?

I am not an evangelical and will not attempt to explain their beliefs. I can say that LDS do not believe in the Nicaean trinity concept.

[hillplus]

It is easy to discuss others imperfections. The question is can we can honestly discuss our own imperfections before we judge others? For many, we cannot. I believe I am guilty as I charge many to be.

Joseph Smith was just a man. A man that God called to do a specific thing at a specific time for a specific purpose. Joseph Smith like Adam, Moses, Elijah, John the Baptist, Peter and all other prophets was not perfect.

Agreed. What wonderful things God can do with the small and simple things of this world. He chooses fishermen and farmboys to be His servants.

[37818]

LDS people do believe in Eternal progression and that we can one day become like our Father. Are we not commanded to be perfect even as our Father is perfect? When God comes again, will we not be like Him? Are we not the sons and daughters of God? what does that mean?Evangelical Christians believe when the Lord Jesus Christ returns (1 John 3:2) those who now have eternal life (1 John 5:9-13) will be like Him with a changed immortal body (1 Corinthians 15:51-53.)



Don't understand what you are saying in your third paragraph.
The third paragraph:
Existence accounts for everthing in existence. God's name "Jehovah" means "Existence." The ancient Hebrews worshiped "Existence" as God. Anything which has to exist in existence is NOT God.

". . . the LORD God made the earth and the heavens, . . ." Jehovah Elohem - LORD is the translation given for God's name. Sometime tranliterated as Jehovah for Yehwah. But not translated. Translated means "the existent One" that is "Existence" as the Person.

Isaiah wrote God saying, ". . . know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me. I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour." -- Isaiah 43:10, 11.

Things which are dependant upon Existence (the LORD) to exist are not God - whether they be called gods or not. (1 Corinthians 8:5, 6.)

[oldtimer]

If you were to explain the difference between the evangelical christians view of the Godhead and the LDS virew. What would you explain?I cannot comment on Evangelical Christians as I am not an Evangelical Christians. If I was to tell you what they believed that might give you a wrong impression of what they believed.

As for LDS, we believe God the Eternal Father is a loving, kind and patient God. He loves each one of us very much and is working to help us to return to him. This applies to all his children, no matter how bad the sin. Nevertheless, there are laws that govern who can return to God the Father who gave us life. This is why God the Father sent his Son, Jesus Christ to atone for our sins so we may be forgiven, upon the conditions of a true and abiding faith. God the Father rules the universe and has sent his Son to teach us, and atone for our sins; He has also sent the Holy Ghost to teach us spirit to spirit. Thus with Jesus and the Holy Ghost, we have two witnesses that God lives and loves us. Combined with the words of the prophets, we can feel God’s love if we but come in humility.

To make it shorter, LDS believe God the Father, Jesus Christ and the Holy Ghost are three separate beings. God the Father and His son Jesus Christ have glorified and perfected bodies of flesh and bone, but the Holy Ghost is a personage of Spirit, not having a body.

[Ephraimsdaughter]

If you were to explain the difference between the evangelical christians view of the Godhead and the LDS virew. What would you explain?

Evangelical
The Trinity is a very important doctrine within Christianity. It is the correct view of the Godhead and needs to be affirmed by Christians. The Trinity is the doctrine that there is only one God in all creation, all time, and all places. The Trinity is not three substances but three persons existing simultaneously, which are the one essence. These person's are not separate from the essence, they subsist in it. Nor are there three essences that would make them three God's. God is tri-une as persons but in nature one God. As Athanasius coined the phrase "not dividing the substance nor confusing the persons."


LDS
We believe in God the Father, in His Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost, but we believe that they are three distinct Beings who are one in purpose and intent, perfectly united to comprise one Godhead, but not "consubstantial" (made of one essence or substance, not being physically distinct). We believe that Christ literally resurrected and has a tangible body of both matter and spirit which He allowed his disciples to feel and see, proving that He was not spirit alone but had flesh and bone (Luke 24:36-43). We believe that the Father looks like the Son and that we are literally created in God's image (Gen. 1:26,27; Gen. 5:1-3). In short, we reject much of the philosophical or metaphysical statements of the Trinitarian creeds

[SuperD]

I was born and raised LDS but also have studied to find my own testimony. I have enjoyed reading the biographies of many of the churches early leaders. There faith is inspiring. some of my ancesters came over to Utah in the wagon trains and handcart companies. I am not sure that I could have been as strong as they are but I find the trials they went through inspiring. I have tried to keep them in mind as I go through my own trials. When my son died I thought back to many of the people who lost loved ones and tried to remember that at least I got to get to know him. Brigham Young studied and prayed for 3 years before he joined the church. I think alot of them did a lot of praying and studying before just getting babtized. I believe that you should find something out for yourself. Prayer always works for me. I have had many prayers answered not always the way I would like but answered just the same.

[utmom]

I am enjoying this thread very much. As someone who, while not being new to the forums, isn't exactly an Old Timer either, it is sometimes difficult to me to identify who is and who is not LDS, Catholic, etc. Of course, some of that is apparent by the nature of people's comments, statements, questions, etc., but not always. If it isn't too much to ask, and if this falls within the guidelines and rules of the forum, would people be willing to identify themselves as to which group they belong? If you've already done so, I apologize for asking again. I want to comment on so many things in this thread, but I am trying to read through them all so as not to repeat others' questions or answers! I'm up to page 24 of 100 something, I believe. ;) Thanks again!

I'm jumping in at your post - page 405. I am a convert to the LDS faith (19 yrs now). I was raised Catholic. I have posted a little on here before but find that Old Tex & others usually state my beliefs very well (probably better than I myself will do here!). As for JS being perfect - no one is perfect (besides Jesus). I found that the truthfulness of the gospel spoke to me without really knowing a lot about JS life past his translation of the Book of Mormon. When I read & prayed about the Book of Mormon I just KNEW. Over the years I have had this knowledge reconfirmed numerous times. Any & all the church prophets have made their contributions to the church, but they are still human and had/have made mistakes in their life.

[oldtimer]

I'm jumping in at your post - page 405. I am a convert to the LDS faith (19 yrs now). I was raised Catholic. I have posted a little on here before but find that Old Tex & others usually state my beliefs very well (probably better than I myself will do here!). As for JS being perfect - no one is perfect (besides Jesus). I found that the truthfulness of the gospel spoke to me without really knowing a lot about JS life past his translation of the Book of Mormon. When I read & prayed about the Book of Mormon I just KNEW. Over the years I have had this knowledge reconfirmed numerous times. Any & all the church prophets have made their contributions to the church, but they are still human and had/have made mistakes in their life.I am a convert from Southern Baptist Convention. In the south I see a lot of Mormons who were former Baptists and Catholics. From Texas to Virginia; and Kentucky to Florida there are about a million Mormons and a vast majority are converts. (Correct my numbers if needed folks.)

[Old Tex]

I thought this was to ask a Mormon?


Someone will attempt to answer a question that is asked in a manner that is understandable.

[Old Tex]

Things which are dependant upon Existence (the LORD) to exist are not God - whether they be called gods or not. (1 Corinthians 8:5, 6.)

Do you think that this is what LDS believe? That they become independent of God?

[noelle12]

I am a convert from Southern Baptist Convention. In the south I see a lot of Mormons who were former Baptists and Catholics. From Texas to Virginia; and Kentucky to Florida there are about a million Mormons and a vast majority are converts. (Correct my numbers if needed folks.)

Or in my case, I am a lifelong Mormon, but a convert to the South.:dance:

[Reeder]

Did y'all see the Ensign this month?......Elder Ballard has published an article about sharing the gospel using the internet. If you haven't read it, I would highly recommend it.

[justamere10]

Did y'all see the Ensign this month?......Elder Ballard has published an article about sharing the gospel using the internet. If you haven't read it, I would highly recommend it.

I'm aware of two boards discussing this very thing. One board called LDS1 is specific for LDS "cyber missionaries." The other organization called CTR1 is oriented towards an ecumenical Christian discussion of cyber missionary work.

I'd post a link to each but it is my understanding that links to other boards are not allowed on Hannity. Correct me if I'm wrong...

[Reeder]

I'm aware of two boards discussing this very thing. One board called LDS1 is specific for LDS "cyber missionaries." The other organization called CTR1 is oriented towards an ecumenical Christian discussion of cyber missionary work.

I'd post a link to each but it is my understanding that links to other boards are not allowed on Hannity. Correct me if I'm wrong...

Thats correct. Anything that will pull traffic away from Hannity.com is against the rules of the forum.

[Daniel95-9]

So...is it true that mormons believe they will, at some point...each inherit a planet to be god over?

[Reeder]

So...is it true that mormons believe they will, at some point...each inherit a planet to be god over?

We can become like God.

Doctrine & Covanents Section 76

50 And again we bear record—for we saw and heard, and this is the testimony of the gospel of Christ concerning them who shall come forth in the resurrection of the just—

51 They are they who received the testimony of Jesus, and believed on his name and were baptized after the manner of his burial, being buried in the water in his name, and this according to the commandment which he has given—

52 That by keeping the commandments they might be washed and cleansed from all their sins, and receive the Holy Spirit by the laying on of the hands of him who is ordained and sealed unto this power;

53 And who overcome by faith, and are sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise, which the Father sheds forth upon all those who are just and true.

54 They are they who are the church of the Firstborn.

55 They are they into whose hands the Father has given all things—

56 They are they who are priests and kings, who have received of his fulness, and of his glory;

57 And are priests of the Most High, after the order of Melchizedek, which was after the order of Enoch, which was after the order of the Only Begotten Son.

58 Wherefore, as it is written, they are gods, even the sons of God—

59 Wherefore, all things are theirs, whether life or death, or things present, or things to come, all are theirs and they are Christ’s, and Christ is God’s.

60 And they shall overcome all things.

61 Wherefore, let no man glory in man, but rather let him glory in God, who shall subdue all enemies under his feet.

62 These shall dwell in the presence of God and his Christ forever and ever.

63 These are they whom he shall bring with him, when he shall come in the clouds of heaven to reign on the earth over his people.

64 These are they who shall have part in the first resurrection.

65 These are they who shall come forth in the resurrection of the just.

66 These are they who are come unto Mount Zion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly place, the holiest of all.

67 These are they who have come to an innumerable company of angels, to the general assembly and church of Enoch, and of the Firstborn.

68 These are they whose names are written in heaven, where God and Christ are the judge of all.

69 These are they who are just men made perfect through Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, who wrought out this perfect atonement through the shedding of his own blood.

70 These are they whose bodies are celestial, whose glory is that of the sun, even the glory of God, the highest of all, whose glory the sun of the firmament is written of as being typical.


Doctrine & Covanents 132

15 Therefore, if a man marry him a wife in the world, and he marry her not by me nor by my word, and he covenant with her so long as he is in the world and she with him, their covenant and marriage are not of force when they are dead, and when they are out of the world; therefore, they are not bound by any law when they are out of the world.

16 Therefore, when they are out of the world they neither marry nor are given in marriage; but are appointed angels in heaven, which angels are ministering servants, to minister for those who are worthy of a far more, and an exceeding, and an eternal weight of glory.

17 For these angels did not abide my law; therefore, they cannot be enlarged, but remain separately and singly, without exaltation, in their saved condition, to all eternity; and from henceforth are not gods, but are angels of God forever and ever.


Doctrine & Covanents 131

1 In the celestial glory there are three heavens or degrees;

2 And in order to obtain the highest, a man must enter into this order of the priesthood [meaning the new and everlasting covenant of marriage];

3 And if he does not, he cannot obtain it.

4 He may enter into the other, but that is the end of his kingdom; he cannot have an increase.



Becoming like God could very well mean developing attributes, knowlege, and power as He has. Although He will always be our God, and we will never rise above Him in any sense of the word, it is very plausible to believe that we will be able to be in a similar position that He is in now. After all, He is our teacher - we are His children. Students and children often grow to become much like their parents and/or mentors.

"Inheriting a planet to be god over" is nothing more than speculation, as it is not found anywhere in the LDS canon of scripture. However, it is very plausible that we will also be able to create "worlds without end," just as God has done.

That is not, however, what our focus should be on. We should focus our lives on following the example of our Savior, Jesus Christ. By believing in Him as the Great Mediator, and the Savior of mankind, and by keeping His commandments in all things and enduring to the end, we are accomplishing God's will. His work and glory are to "bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man." (Moses 1:39)

[hillplus]

Did y'all see the Ensign this month?......Elder Ballard has published an article about sharing the gospel using the internet. If you haven't read it, I would highly recommend it.

I enjoyed the article. Two things in particular.
Stand firmly and speak with faith.
Also, A soft answer turneth away wrath, but grevous words stir up anger.

I think the atmosphere here is generally amiable, I am often very embarrassed on other sites at the hate that members spew out.

Had to add this line
Remember who you are. My mother said this to me and I say it to my kids.

[Reeder]

Had to add this line
Remember who you are. My mother said this to me and I say it to my kids.

I think Mufasa coined that phrase. :mrgreen:

[Daniel95-9]

Thanks for the reply Reeder.

Who is Joseph Smith, and why is he important?

[Reeder]

Thanks for the reply Reeder.

Who is Joseph Smith, and why is he important?

You mean you don't know?.........:think: :)

[Daniel95-9]

Correct.

[Old Tex]

We can become like God.

Doctrine & Covanents Section 76

50 And again we bear record—for we saw and heard, and this is the testimony of the gospel of Christ concerning them who shall come forth in the resurrection of the just—

51 They are they who received the testimony of Jesus, and believed on his name and were baptized after the manner of his burial, being buried in the water in his name, and this according to the commandment which he has given—

52 That by keeping the commandments they might be washed and cleansed from all their sins, and receive the Holy Spirit by the laying on of the hands of him who is ordained and sealed unto this power;

53 And who overcome by faith, and are sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise, which the Father sheds forth upon all those who are just and true.

54 They are they who are the church of the Firstborn.

55 They are they into whose hands the Father has given all things—

56 They are they who are priests and kings, who have received of his fulness, and of his glory;

57 And are priests of the Most High, after the order of Melchizedek, which was after the order of Enoch, which was after the order of the Only Begotten Son.

58 Wherefore, as it is written, they are gods, even the sons of God—

59 Wherefore, all things are theirs, whether life or death, or things present, or things to come, all are theirs and they are Christ’s, and Christ is God’s.

60 And they shall overcome all things.

61 Wherefore, let no man glory in man, but rather let him glory in God, who shall subdue all enemies under his feet.

62 These shall dwell in the presence of God and his Christ forever and ever.

63 These are they whom he shall bring with him, when he shall come in the clouds of heaven to reign on the earth over his people.

64 These are they who shall have part in the first resurrection.

65 These are they who shall come forth in the resurrection of the just.

66 These are they who are come unto Mount Zion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly place, the holiest of all.

67 These are they who have come to an innumerable company of angels, to the general assembly and church of Enoch, and of the Firstborn.

68 These are they whose names are written in heaven, where God and Christ are the judge of all.

69 These are they who are just men made perfect through Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, who wrought out this perfect atonement through the shedding of his own blood.

70 These are they whose bodies are celestial, whose glory is that of the sun, even the glory of God, the highest of all, whose glory the sun of the firmament is written of as being typical.


Doctrine & Covanents 132

15 Therefore, if a man marry him a wife in the world, and he marry her not by me nor by my word, and he covenant with her so long as he is in the world and she with him, their covenant and marriage are not of force when they are dead, and when they are out of the world; therefore, they are not bound by any law when they are out of the world.

16 Therefore, when they are out of the world they neither marry nor are given in marriage; but are appointed angels in heaven, which angels are ministering servants, to minister for those who are worthy of a far more, and an exceeding, and an eternal weight of glory.

17 For these angels did not abide my law; therefore, they cannot be enlarged, but remain separately and singly, without exaltation, in their saved condition, to all eternity; and from henceforth are not gods, but are angels of God forever and ever.


Doctrine & Covanents 131

1 In the celestial glory there are three heavens or degrees;

2 And in order to obtain the highest, a man must enter into this order of the priesthood [meaning the new and everlasting covenant of marriage];

3 And if he does not, he cannot obtain it.

4 He may enter into the other, but that is the end of his kingdom; he cannot have an increase.



Becoming like God could very well mean developing attributes, knowlege, and power as He has. Although He will always be our God, and we will never rise above Him in any sense of the word, it is very plausible to believe that we will be able to be in a similar position that He is in now. After all, He is our teacher - we are His children. Students and children often grow to become much like their parents and/or mentors.

"Inheriting a planet to be god over" is nothing more than speculation, as it is not found anywhere in the LDS canon of scripture. However, it is very plausible that we will also be able to create "worlds without end," just as God has done.

That is not, however, what our focus should be on. We should focus our lives on following the example of our Savior, Jesus Christ. By believing in Him as the Great Mediator, and the Savior of mankind, and by keeping His commandments in all things and enduring to the end, we are accomplishing God's will. His work and glory are to "bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man." (Moses 1:39)

Reeder.....Thanks for your summary above. In my opinion, it is very good response to the question that was asked. Anyone here will get a better understanding of the LDS understanding of "heaven" by reading it slowly and letting the words soak in.

[Old Tex]

Correct.

Here is a brief account of who Joseph Smith was and what he did.

http://scriptures.lds.org/js_h/1

[Old Tex]

I'm aware of two boards discussing this very thing. One board called LDS1 is specific for LDS "cyber missionaries." The other organization called CTR1 is oriented towards an ecumenical Christian discussion of cyber missionary work.

I'd post a link to each but it is my understanding that links to other boards are not allowed on Hannity. Correct me if I'm wrong...

I have taken a look at both of them and either one (or both) seems to me that they would fit what Elder Ballard was talking about.

[hillplus]

I think Mufasa coined that phrase. :mrgreen:

Unlikely, considering my age and the fact that Mufasa has only been around since the mid 90's. You may be a young pup. I, unfortunately am not. :lol:

I suspect the statement "remember who you are" has been around a long time.
It's good advice. My mom always said it as I was on my out the door, especially before a date.

[noelle12]

Thanks for the reply Reeder.

Who is Joseph Smith, and why is he important?

I hope that you have read the link that Reeder provided, and if so I would like to add why I believe that Joseph Smith is important.

After many centuries of reduced communication between God and man, Joseph Smith was called to be a prophet of God. I say reduced communication because while there were no prophets, I believe that there were many inspired men and women who followed spiritual promptings that originated with God, and did many good and important things that lead to an environment where God could restore the fullness of His gospel.

[noelle12]

I enjoyed the article. Two things in particular.
Stand firmly and speak with faith.
Also, A soft answer turneth away wrath, but grevous words stir up anger.

I think the atmosphere here is generally amiable, I am often very embarrassed on other sites at the hate that members spew out.

Had to add this line
Remember who you are. My mother said this to me and I say it to my kids.

I agree with you Hillplus. I thought those two points were the most important:
Stand firmly and speak with faith.
Also, A soft answer turneth away wrath, but grievous words stir up anger.

[Reeder]

Unlikely, considering my age and the fact that Mufasa has only been around since the mid 90's. You may be a young pup. I, unfortunately am not. :lol:

I suspect the statement "remember who you are" has been around a long time.
It's good advice. My mom always said it as I was on my out the door, especially before a date.


Nope, it was Mufasa! :mrgreen:

[oldtimer]

Or in my case, I am a lifelong Mormon, but a convert to the South.:dance:Welcome convert. We welcome all, unless they disrespect the south. We may joke with our 'Yankee' friends about not being from the south, but that is mostly a joke against ourselves. This should be evident when we call people from Nevada a Yankee.

[Frazzled]

Welcome convert. We welcome all, unless they disrespect the south. We may joke with our 'Yankee' friends about not being from the south, but that is mostly a joke against ourselves. This should be evident when we call people from Nevada a Yankee.

Hey :neutral:

I claim dual citizenship :mrgreen:

[Old Tex]

I claim dual citizenship :mrgreen:

From different talks I read from the late 1800s I got the impression that South Utah (St. George area) was known all over the state as "Dixie". Probably still is.

[noelle12]

Welcome convert. We welcome all, unless they disrespect the south. We may joke with our 'Yankee' friends about not being from the south, but that is mostly a joke against ourselves. This should be evident when we call people from Nevada a Yankee.

I love it here.

[oldtimer]

From different talks I read from the late 1800s I got the impression that South Utah (St. George area) was known all over the state as "Dixie". Probably still is.It was settled by some converts from the south. Brigham Young asked them to grow cotton, and they did; but later the farming for cotton was ended.

[CALady]

An honest question, Reeder, or any LDS, for that matter:

if we are all Spirit Children, what is the difference between me and Christ? Are there any ontological differences, or is he Christ and I'm what I am just because he is older, and has "progressed" further?

Jesus is different in that He is the only begotten son of the Father. The rest of us have earthly fathers. Otherwise, we don't believe there are any other ontological differences, which is how Jesus didn't require two natures at opposition with each other. He had one nature. We have the same nature, but very immature. We believe we have the potential - we are also children of God - to be far more than we are. But Jesus is our Lord of Lords and King of Kings and our example, our inspiration, our Savior.

[oldtimer]

Hey :neutral:

I claim dual citizenship :mrgreen:Ooops.... my appologies.... hehehe.... :)

[bamboobrother]

It is easy to discuss others imperfections. The question is can we can honestly discuss our own imperfections before we judge others?

I think, in the case of Old Tex and Oldtimer, that you are missunderstanding what my intentions are from my post. (Please forgive me if, in turn, I am missunderstanding your comments.) By stating that I believe Joseph Smith had imperfections, I am not trying to stir up any contention about whether or not he is a prophet. On the contrary, I believe very strongly that he is and was a prophet of God. The very fact that he was NOT perfect has always strengthened my faith in him as a prophet. I, too, fully committed myself to that believe long ago.

[justamere10]

From different talks I read from the late 1800s I got the impression that South Utah (St. George area) was known all over the state as "Dixie". Probably still is.

There is a huge white sign high on a mountain side overlooking the St. George Temple that is lit at night. Another sign painted in white is on the red cliffs below Pioneer Park. Both signs are just one proud word: "DIXIE".

Dixie College that is!

St. George was and is the winter home of many people from Salt Lake City. Even Brigham Young had a home in St. George. St. George has always been known as Utah's Dixie.

It's the perfect retirement location for Latter-day Saints, known to be the second safest city of its size in all the USA. I don't think you could ever live further than about six or seven blocks from an LDS meetinghouse in St. George, some are side by side just a few yards apart.

Long before I ever heard of the Mormons, a teen-ager wearing an Air Force uniform, I memorized a scripture. If I still have it right, it goes something like this:

"I will lift up mine eyes unto the hills from whence cometh my help."

It doesn't matter which direction you face in St. George, you are looking at a mountain.

Those things are some of the reasons why I too am living on a 'mountain' in beautiful St. George, Utah. :-)

[noelle12]

There is a huge white sign high on a mountain side overlooking the St. George Temple that is lit at night. Another sign painted in white is on the red cliffs below Pioneer Park. Both signs are just one proud word: "DIXIE".

Dixie College that is!

St. George was and is the winter home of many people from Salt Lake City. Even Brigham Young had a home in St. George. St. George has always been known as Utah's Dixie.

It's the perfect retirement location for Latter-day Saints, known to be the second safest city of its size in all the USA. I don't think you could ever live further than about six or seven blocks from an LDS meetinghouse in St. George, some are side by side just a few yards apart.

Long before I ever heard of the Mormons, a teen-ager wearing an Air Force uniform, I memorized a scripture. If I still have it right, it goes something like this:

"I will lift up mine eyes unto the hills from whence cometh my help."

It doesn't matter which direction you face in St. George, you are looking at a mountain.

Those things are some of the reasons why I too am living on a 'mountain' in beautiful St. George, Utah. :-)

Two of my brothers went to Dixie College. They both really liked it. I was at BYU and went down there for a long weekend in the middle of winter. It was nice enjoying an outdoor pool in February.

[justamere10]

Two of my brothers went to Dixie College. They both really liked it. I was at BYU and went down there for a long weekend in the middle of winter. It was nice enjoying an outdoor pool in February.

That and fifteen or so golf courses in short sleeves many of the afternoons. We're only a hundred miles from Las Vegas, but of course that has no appeal to Latter-day Saints. Except we have a whole lot of stakes, and a beautiful temple there...

[Frazzled]

That and fifteen or so golf courses in short sleeves many of the afternoons. We're only a hundred miles from Las Vegas, but of course that has no appeal to Latter-day Saints. Except we have a whole lot of stakes, and a beautiful temple there...

Hey now......:naughty:

[RayMan]

Hey now......:naughty:

Viva Las Frazzled.

[utmom]

I am a convert from Southern Baptist Convention. In the south I see a lot of Mormons who were former Baptists and Catholics. From Texas to Virginia; and Kentucky to Florida there are about a million Mormons and a vast majority are converts. (Correct my numbers if needed folks.)

When we lived in Texas the Southern Baptists seemed to believe all Mormons had horns (I love that one) and had multiple wives. There are a lot of Mormons in the south & the numbers grow all the time. When we moved to Dallas our area had 2 wards - 5 years later we had split into 2 stakes and had 7 wards.

[justamere10]

Hey now......:naughty:

Oops, you must be from Vegas. I did say "beautiful" temple. :-)

I overnight in Vegas often if I have an early flight next day, leave the car at Excalibur. It beats the poor connections flying from St. George until our new airport is finished. And I like Vegas actually, the slots don't appeal so it's never a struggle.

[Frazzled]

Oops, you must be from Vegas. I did say "beautiful" temple. :-)

I overnight in Vegas often if I have an early flight next day, leave the car at Excalibur. It beats the poor connections flying from St. George until our new airport is finished. And I like Vegas actually, the slots don't appeal so it's never a struggle.

Well, Vegas is like a lot of places...... you'll find what you're looking for ;)

(Oh, and I'm a Dixie Rebel, too!)

[utmom]

"I will lift up mine eyes unto the hills from whence cometh my help."

It doesn't matter which direction you face in St. George, you are looking at a mountain.

Those things are some of the reasons why I too am living on a 'mountain' in beautiful St. George, Utah. :-)

Psalms 121 I believe :)
St George is really pretty. We drove through there about a month ago on the way to Vegas (Kenny Chesney!!!).

[bamboobrother]

We're only a hundred miles from Las Vegas, but of course that has no appeal to Latter-day Saints.

I'll add my own "hey now..." As an active Latter-Day Saint who not only lives with my wife and children in Las Vegas, but works every day as the concierge manager in a major hotel, I don't think it's so bad! LOL. I'm only joking. There is a lot about this city that is terrifying actually. You do, indeed, find what you are looking for. I don't want to live here forever, that's for sure, but it isn't bad for now. Weather is nice....

[justamere10]

I'll add my own "hey now..." As an active Latter-Day Saint who not only lives with my wife and children in Las Vegas, but works every day as the concierge manager in a major hotel, I don't think it's so bad! LOL. I'm only joking. There is a lot about this city that is terrifying actually. You do, indeed, find what you are looking for. I don't want to live here forever, that's for sure, but it isn't bad for now. Weather is nice....

Weather is nice if you like 108 degrees of course. :-)

Actually, I do.

[Frazzled]

Viva Las Frazzled.

http://i291.photobucket.com/albums/ll319/FrazzledK/smilies/smiley_emoticons_stars_elvis.gif

Me and Elvis!

[bamboobrother]

Weather is nice if you like 108 degrees of course. :-)

Actually, I do.

And how did you know today's temperature? Are you here now? *looks around* :D

The other day my 6 year old daughter said to me while we were driving..."Dad, if I melt do I still have to take a bath tonight?"

In all seriousness though, I think that this city has done a lot to focus my religious beliefs. I think it had to. I have been a lot of places around the world, and yet I have never encountered a city that is more polar opposite than this one.

[justamere10]

And how did you know today's temperature? Are you here now? *looks around* :D

The other day my 6 year old daughter said to me while we were driving..."Dad, if I melt do I still have to take a bath tonight?"

In all seriousness though, I think that this city has done a lot to focus my religious beliefs. I think it had to. I have been a lot of places around the world, and yet I have never encountered a city that is more polar opposite than this one.

I returned from a trip a few days ago. It was 70 where I came back from and 108 in Vegas. Nice to thaw out.

My wife and I served a senior mission in Macau, China. A lot of execs from the casino business stopped in to our sacrament meetings, a few stayed there on business several weeks.

I was asked by LDS leaders if I thought the rapidly expanding casino environment in Macau was compatible with the Church. I said "Las Vegas" and nary another word was spoken.

The LDS Church of course frowns on gambling, but the entertainment industry attracts a whole lot of people needing jobs, and a whole of people often means a whole lot of LDS. So, it seems to work out.

[Frazzled]

.....and considering that Las Vegas was actually settled by mormon pioneers makes the whole situation even funnier!

[mrcuff]

I'll add my own "hey now..." As an active Latter-Day Saint who not only lives with my wife and children in Las Vegas, but works every day as the concierge manager in a major hotel, I don't think it's so bad! LOL. I'm only joking. ........Weather is nice....

I'm in the Anthem Stake in Henderson.......... and............I moved here because of the weather, not in spite of it. I hope that people who bad-mouth the weather in Vegas also take time to complain about chipping the ice off windshields, tracking mud into the car and house, shoveling the sidewalk, rusty cars from the salt on the roads, and my favorite...........getting the toddler all dressed in multiple layers of clothing to go play in the snow when they say, "I hafta go bafroom".:angel:

[justamere10]

.....and considering that Las Vegas was actually settled by mormon pioneers makes the whole situation even funnier!

It was great until the 'family' arrived. But then, Mormons are family oriented. :-)

[noelle12]

I'm in the Anthem Stake in Henderson.......... and............I moved here because of the weather, not in spite of it. I hope that people who bad-mouth the weather in Vegas also take time to complain about chipping the ice off windshields, tracking mud into the car and house, shoveling the sidewalk, rusty cars from the salt on the roads, and my favorite...........getting the toddler all dressed in multiple layers of clothing to go play in the snow when they say, "I hafta go bafroom".:angel:

I made a commitment to never complain about the heat and humidity in the summer. That leaves me free to whine and complain with impunity in the winter. I don't start complaining until about February. That's when I'm done with winter, even though winter isn't done with me.

[coMITTed]

We're only a hundred miles from Las Vegas, but of course that has no appeal to Latter-day Saints.

Four words: Double-double animal style :) (head tilted back, small string of drool dangling from open mouth, a la Homer Simpson. . .aaaaaaaggggggggggllllllllllooooooooollllllllllll! )

[bamboobrother]

I'm in the Anthem Stake in Henderson..........

In Summerlin here....

[justamere10]

Four words: Double-double animal style :) (head tilted back, small string of drool dangling from open mouth, a la Homer Simpson. . .aaaaaaaggggggggggllllllllllooooooooollllllllllll! )


I don't recognize those sounds. Star Wars new talk??

You neglected to include the qualifer:

"Except we have a whole lot of stakes, and a beautiful temple there..."

For whatever reasons, Lost Wages is a popular place for Latter-day Saints to reside. Almost as popular as St. George, Utah...

[noelle12]

I have been through Vegas a few times, but I have never been to Vegas.

[The Infamous Din]

I haven't read this whole thread yet, so forgive me if my question is a repeat.

If Jesus Christ is merely the God of This World, which sound suspiciously like another character in the Bible, and if there are other Gods of other worlds, then what did John mean by "only begotten son." KJV.

I'm pretty sure that if we are to inherit our own worlds in the future, Jesus is still the FIRST of many brothers and that He does inherit the throne of the Most High God as prophesied. He and the Father and the Spirit are One and have authority over all of Creation.

BTW: I just watched the series The Work and the Glory. It's well done. I did notice parallels in the story with that of other movements. As to which church is right, I'd agree that none of them are. We work out our salvation with Christ.

God left many questions unanswered so that we would have something to discuss until He returns. Let's just keep those discussions polite. hehe.

[Old Tex]

If Jesus Christ is merely the God of This World, which sound suspiciously like another character in the Bible, and if there are other Gods of other worlds, then what did John mean by "only begotten son." KJV.

While all others on this earth have a mortal body produced by mortal parents, Jesus Christ's mortal body was by way of a mortal mother (Mary) and God the Father. Thus Christ, being begotten by God the Father, was His only begotten Son in the flesh on this earth.

[The Infamous Din]

Ok. That's a good start. I guess that in your theory, our world has a unigue salvation plan. What about the "FIRST" part?

[Old Tex]

As to which church is right, I'd agree that none of them are. We work out our salvation with Christ.

After much study and prayer, I arrived at the conclusion that if the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is not the true church, then the true church does not, at this time, exist upon this earth.

[The Infamous Din]

The true church is made up of the true followers of Christ, which do not answer to any other shepard. You will know them by their fruits, not by their affiliations.

[CALady]

I haven't read this whole thread yet, so forgive me if my question is a repeat.

If Jesus Christ is merely the God of This World, which sound suspiciously like another character in the Bible, and if there are other Gods of other worlds, then what did John mean by "only begotten son." KJV.

Can you tell me where you found us saying "Jesus Christ is merely the God of This World"? I think there's some confusion there.

I'm pretty sure that if we are to inherit our own worlds in the future, Jesus is still the FIRST of many brothers and that He does inherit the throne of the Most High God as prophesied. He and the Father and the Spirit are One and have authority over all of Creation.

"Inherit our own worlds" is speculation. Nobody knows what Heaven will be like. All we claim to "know" is that we are joint heirs with Christ. What that means is up for speculation.

We also know that Jesus is now and always will be God, Our King of Kings and Lord of Lords. We may be brothers and sisters but Jesus is God.

BTW: I just watched the series The Work and the Glory. It's well done. I did notice parallels in the story with that of other movements. As to which church is right, I'd agree that none of them are. We work out our salvation with Christ.

I found the book series to be enjoyable and moving and a nice way to learn church history, albeit somewhat sanitized.

But yes, most religious movements start with the desire to search for truth and a dissatisfaction with existing institutions. And I agree, we all still, one way or another, work out our salvation with Christ.

God left many questions unanswered so that we would have something to discuss until He returns. Let's just keep those discussions polite. hehe.

I believe God reveals truth to those who seek it, and withholds it from those who are not sincere. Just IMHO. And I agree. All these discussions between people who have faith in Christ should be done with respect for fellow brothers and sisters.

[CALady]

The true church is made up of the true followers of Christ, which do not answer to any other shepard. You will know them by their fruits, not by their affiliations.

We agree. Church membership means nothing other than fellowship. Salvation is between Christ and the individual.

[The Infamous Din]

CALady, with all due respect, my questions were worded in such a way as to be understood by Mormons.

[The Infamous Din]

I'm glad we agree on that part.

[CALady]

CALady, with all due respect, my questions were worded in such a way as to be understood by Mormons.

Sorry?

I'm Mormon.

[The Infamous Din]

I took note of the similarity between Janet Reno and Joshua Steed.

[CALady]

I took note of the similarity between Janet Reno and Joshua Steed.

You lost me.

[The Infamous Din]

CALady,

You're Mormon? My mistake then. I apologize.

[Mikko]

I haven't read this whole thread yet, so forgive me if my question is a repeat.

If Jesus Christ is merely the God of This World, which sound suspiciously like another character in the Bible, and if there are other Gods of other worlds, then what did John mean by "only begotten son." KJV.

I'm pretty sure that if we are to inherit our own worlds in the future, Jesus is still the FIRST of many brothers and that He does inherit the throne of the Most High God as prophesied. He and the Father and the Spirit are One and have authority over all of Creation.

BTW: I just watched the series The Work and the Glory. It's well done. I did notice parallels in the story with that of other movements. As to which church is right, I'd agree that none of them are. We work out our salvation with Christ.

God left many questions unanswered so that we would have something to discuss until He returns. Let's just keep those discussions polite. hehe.
Howdy, stranger!:)

[CALady]

CALady,

You're Mormon? My mistake then. I apologize.

No biggie.

So, did you want to discuss the questions you raised?

[The Infamous Din]

Hey Mikko, long time no ttl.

[The Infamous Din]

Sure, CALady,

Lay it on me.

[CALady]

Sure, CALady,

Lay it on me.

http://forums.hannity.com/showpost.php?p=31024781&postcount=4136

[Mikko]

Hey Mikko, long time no ttl.
Correct, whatever "ttl" means.:eh::)

[The Infamous Din]

ttl is an old and very low level technological acronym refering firstly to a teletype signal and then later and more generally to the standard transmission protocol of typed messages.

[Old Tex]

I'm pretty sure that if we are to inherit our own worlds in the future, Jesus is still the FIRST of many brothers and that He does inherit the throne of the Most High God as prophesied. He and the Father and the Spirit are One and have authority over all of Creation.


I don't know about if anyone will "inherit our own worlds". I only know that the scriptures say that some will be joint heirs with Jesus Christ and will inherit "all that the Father hath". I understand that to mean that whatever one receives, it will always remain within the "jurisdiction" of God the Father.

The scriptures also say that Christ was the firstborn (in the spirit) of the Father, and the only begotten (in mortality) and that He had the power to perform the Atonement for all the rest so that upon certain conditions their own sin might be forgiven. No other individual could do this, so it is as the scriptures state that there is "no other name under heaven whereby man may be saved" from his present situation and even exaltated in the next life.

[The Infamous Din]

http://forums.hannity.com/showpost.php?p=31024781&postcount=4136


I'm quite certain that God reveals truth to all who are sincere, but He does so in such a way that we remain humbled by the fact that we still do not know everything.

[CALady]

I'm quite certain that God reveals truth to all who are sincere, but He does so in such a way that we remain humbled by the fact that we still do not know everything.

No disagreement there.

[The Infamous Din]

I don't know about if anyone will "inherit our own worlds". I only know that the scriptures say that some will be joint heirs with Jesus Christ and will inherit "all that the Father hath". I understand that to mean that whatever one receives, it will always remain within the "jurisdiction" of God the Father.

The scriptures also say that Christ was the firstborn (in the spirit) of the Father, and the only begotten (in mortality) and that He had the power to perform the Atonement for all the rest so that upon certain conditions their own sin might be forgiven. No other individual could do this, so it is as the scriptures state that there is "no other name under heaven whereby man may be saved" from his present situation and even exaltated in the next life.

We agree on much.

[The Infamous Din]

I'd love to have a world to play with though. Not so much as a leader, but as a builder. I'm tinkering with creating a video game engine to practice on. hehe.

[Old Tex]

CALady, with all due respect, my questions were worded in such a way as to be understood by Mormons.

Din, I think if you continue that you will find the CAlady is a quite knowledgeable Mormon.

[The Infamous Din]

I did respond too quickly to CALady, at first, but then I apologized for that.

[CALady]

Din, I think if you continue that you will find the CAlady is a quite knowledgeable Mormon.

Thanks, but I'm way behind you.

I notice that some people ask questions of us by making an assumption first, then ask a question about the assumption. When the assumption itself isn't quite what we believe, it's hard to go further in the discussion.

[The Infamous Din]

Thanks, but I'm way behind you.

I notice that some people ask questions of us by making an assumption first, then ask a question about the assumption. When the assumption itself isn't quite what we believe, it's hard to go further in the discussion.

A premise is not always an assumption - in the casual sense of the word.

[CALady]

A premise is not always an assumption - in the casual sense of the word.

When one puts forth a premise which is an assumption, they are basically the same thing. Which is why I questioned your assumptions (or the premise of your questions) because those need to be clarified first before we can understand each other.

[The Infamous Din]

Are Mormons generally guarded against the deception involving the AntiChrist that is to come?

If a mighty being comes from space (or another dimension, or a modern virgin birth) and declares himself to be the Messiah or of the blood line of the Messiah, would the Mormons accept him as such and take his mark?

Perhaps he leads a mighty angelic army - or runs for President - and has secret knowledge, speaking it with authority. How would Mormons handle the situation?

As I predicted in some of my early posts, many are being prepared to believe that the Messiah could be cloned from blood assumed to be that of Jesus Christ or bread(sp?) from haughty Eurpoean stock that claims to be His descendents.

[Old Tex]

I'd love to have a world to play with though. Not so much as a leader, but as a builder. I'm tinkering with creating a video game engine to practice on. hehe.

If this is your concept of what LDS believe, then I can see that you are so far off that you have no idea of what LDS talk about. Have fun with your video game.

[Old Tex]

Are Mormons generally guarded against the deception involving the AntiChrist that is to come?

If a mighty being comes from space (or another dimension, or a modern virgin birth) and declares himself to be the Messiah or of the blood line of the Messiah, would the Mormons accept him as such and take his mark?

Perhaps he leads a mighty angelic army - or runs for President - and has secret knowledge, speaking it with authority. How would Mormons handle the situation?

As I predicted in some of my early posts, many are being prepared to believe that the Messiah could be cloned from blood assumed to be that of Jesus Christ or bread from haughty Eurpoean stock that claims to be His descendents.

You have played too many video games.

[The Infamous Din]

That's a serious question. Many false Christs have come and gone and I'm just asking how Mormons are girded against such deceptions.

Do you have a teaching on this matter? The Bible clearly states that Satan comes as an angel of light, so my question is not so fanciful as your post implies.

Perhaps you have already given me the answer...

[Old Tex]

That's a serious question. Many false Christs have come and gone and I'm just asking how Mormons are girded against such deceptions.

Do you have a teaching on this matter? The Bible clearly states that Satan comes as an angel of light, so my question is not so fanciful as your post implies.

LDS have a living prophet and the Holy Ghost. As long as they are personally in tune with both they have no worries.

[The Infamous Din]

Like the Pope? That sounds a bit tenuous - especially if what is said about the Mountain Meadow thing has any truth to it.

[The Infamous Din]

Two thirds of mankind will be deceived. I do you a service to raise the issue before that happens.

[noelle12]

Like the Pope? That sounds a bit tenuous - especially if what is said about the Mountain Meadow thing has any truth to it.

What does this comment refer to?

[Old Tex]

Two thirds of mankind will be deceived. I do you a service to raise the issue before that happens.

Perhaps two thirds are already deceived.

[NJConservative]

What does this comment refer to?

He's referring to an incident that happened during the Utah War.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utah_War

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mountain_Meadows_massacre

Much ado about nothing (as an accusation against the LDS church), unless you're a conspiracy theorist ;)

[SuperD]

Are Mormons generally guarded against the deception involving the AntiChrist that is to come?

If a mighty being comes from space (or another dimension, or a modern virgin birth) and declares himself to be the Messiah or of the blood line of the Messiah, would the Mormons accept him as such and take his mark?

Perhaps he leads a mighty angelic army - or runs for President - and has secret knowledge, speaking it with authority. How would Mormons handle the situation?

As I predicted in some of my early posts, many are being prepared to believe that the Messiah could be cloned from blood assumed to be that of Jesus Christ or bread(sp?) from haughty Eurpoean stock that claims to be His descendents.

We have been taught to follow the prophet but we also can listen to the spirit ourselves. there are ways that you can tell the difference between an angel of light for real and an angel of satan. Also the scriptures tells us how and what to look for in Christ second coming. If we follow the signs and pray for the spirit we will know.

[noelle12]

He's referring to an incident that happened during the Utah War.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utah_War

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mountain_Meadows_massacre

Much ado about nothing (as an accusation against the LDS church), unless you're a conspiracy theorist ;)

I understand about the Mountain Meadows Massacre, but I don't know what previous post he is referencing.

Like the Pope? That sounds a bit tenuous - especially if what is said about the Mountain Meadow thing has any truth to it.

In the Ensign (the official LDS magazine) there was a very good article about the Mountain Meadows Massacre in September 2007. Here is a link to that article (http://www.lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?vgnextoid=2354fccf2b7db010VgnVCM1000004d 82620aRCRD&locale=0&sourceId=1c234dc029133110VgnVCM100000176f620a____&locale=0).

[Old Tex]

What does this comment refer to?

You mean the one about the Pope? I wondered about that one myself.

[noelle12]

You mean the one about the Pope? I wondered about that one myself.

Yeah, I missed the flow of that conversation.

[Uk4Duke]

I have heard stories of how some Mormons have been excommunicatedor thrownout of the church bacause they do not believe the history in the Book of Mormons such as the Jaredites. As a Baptist if they had to throw out every Chirstian who did not belieive all the history in the Bible, we might be a problem.

Saw the story and it reminded me of the stories or rumors I have heard. I have no idea if it is true or not.

[noelle12]

I have heard stories of how some Mormons have been excommunicated or thrown out of the church because they do not believe the history in the Book of Mormons such as the Jaredites. As a Baptist if they had to throw out every Christian who did not believe all the history in the Bible, we might be a problem.

Saw the story and it reminded me of the stories or rumors I have heard. I have no idea if it is true or not.

It sure does not sound true. Where did you hear that from?

[scipio337]

It sure does not sound true. Where did you hear that from?Thomas W. Murphy and Simon Southerton are two examples. I'm not sure if Murphy was ever "disciplied" for his criticism of Lamanite/DNA connections.

I think what The Infamous Din was trying to say is that Catholics also claim the Pope is guided by the Holy Spirit, and that the MMM is an example of "living prophets" being misguided.

[CALady]

Thomas W. Murphy and Simon Southerton are two examples. I'm not sure if Murphy was ever "disciplied" for his criticism of Lamanite/DNA connections.

There would have to be more to the "story" than just saying someone didn't quite believe the Jaradites existed. One would have to be teaching and spreading doctrine that is counter to the church.

I think what The Infamous Din was trying to say is that Catholics also claim the Pope is guided by the Holy Spirit, and that the MMM is an example of "living prophets" being misguided.

Which is yet another wrong assumption. He seems to be full of them. The MMM has nothing to do with "living prophets". It was a reaction - and a poor reaction - to fear and persecution by people living remotely and who felt vulnerable to attack. The Prophet Brigham Young tried to stop them. But they didn't have cell phones in those days.

[CALady]

I have heard stories of how some Mormons have been excommunicatedor thrownout of the church bacause they do not believe the history in the Book of Mormons such as the Jaredites. As a Baptist if they had to throw out every Chirstian who did not belieive all the history in the Bible, we might be a problem.

Saw the story and it reminded me of the stories or rumors I have heard. I have no idea if it is true or not.

Do Baptists even have an excommunication practice? I know they "disfellowship" members for various reasons. If a Baptist started teaching Sunday School and telling kids that baptism wasn't important, or that St. Paul had it all wrong, that person would certainly be talked to. If they persisted and started Bible Studies to teach this, I'm pretty sure the church would disfellowship them.

[scipio337]

There would have to be more to the "story" than just saying someone didn't quite believe the Jaradites existed. One would have to be teaching and spreading doctrine that is counter to the church.True enough.



Which is yet another wrong assumption. He seems to be full of them. The MMM has nothing to do with "living prophets". It was a reaction - and a poor reaction - to fear and persecution by people living remotely and who felt vulnerable to attack. The Prophet Brigham Young tried to stop them. But they didn't have cell phones in those days.Yes, but I would say there was action by Brigham Young (declaring martial law, predictions of a "seven year seige) that only contributed to that environment of fear.


Not just my opinion, but those of some LDS, as well.

For his part, Brigham Young’s actions and inflammatory, violent
language—acceptable as they might have been for a private citizen, though
questionable for a religious leader—were wholly inappropriate for a man
who was a federally sworn and paid territorial governor, Indian superintendent,
and militia commander.45 For example, Young’s five-week absence
from Utah during April–May 1857 with a large entourage to visit
Fort Limhi in southern Oregon Territory (now Idaho) without notification
to the U.S. Secretary of State, Oregon’s governor, or the superintendent
of Indian affairs for Washington-Oregon was a Church-motivated
mission sharply in conflict with his civil responsibilities. Feeling and acting
the way he did, I believe that Young should have resigned his federal
positions rather than exploit them financially while attacking U.S. Army
units and allowing killings to take place uninvestigated, let alone unpunished.
In accepting a governor’s commission and taking the oath of office to uphold the Constitution, Brigham Young had tacitly accepted the responsibility to serve the interests of the federal government. He should
have done so or resigned, not used the office for other, unrelated ends.

http://www.dialoguejournal.com/excerpts/4001.pdf

Granted, I'm not blaming Brigham Young for the incident, but as The Infamous Din pointed out, it may be an example of a "living prophet" not being "guided".

[CALady]

True enough.



Yes, but I would say there was action by Brigham Young (declaring martial law, predictions of a "seven year seige) that only contributed to that environment of fear.


Not just my opinion, but those of some LDS, as well.



http://www.dialoguejournal.com/excerpts/4001.pdf

Granted, I'm not blaming Brigham Young for the incident, but as The Infamous Din pointed out, it may be an example of a "living prophet" not being "guided".

Declaring martial law and fearing a seven year seige were reasonable responses at the time given the circumstances. These people were fleeing an extermination order. I think an "environment of fear" might be understandable.

As it turned out, things calmed down once the Saints were isolated in the Utah Territory. Which is what was predicted all along. They found the peace that was predicted, in the west.

[CALady]

Reminds me of a song...

We'll find the place which God for us prepared,
Far away in the west.
Where none shall come to hurt or make afraid;
There the Saints will be blessed.
We'll make the air with music ring,
Shout praises to our God and King,
Above the rest, these words we'll tell,
'All is well! All is well!'

A song written by pioneers on the trail, for whom not much at all was well at the time.

[scipio337]

Declaring martial law and fearing a seven year seige were reasonable responses at the time given the circumstances. These people were fleeing an extermination order. I think an "environment of fear" might be understandable.

As it turned out, things calmed down once the Saints were isolated in the Utah Territory. Which is what was predicted all along. They found the peace that was predicted, in the west.I forgot why I stopped posting in LDS threads for a while. The faith, and its leaders, are above critisism, to all but a few.

[CALady]

I forgot why I stopped posting in LDS threads for a while. The faith, and its leaders, are above critisism, to all but a few.

Excuse me? What did I write that isn't verifiable history?

[noelle12]

I forgot why I stopped posting in LDS threads for a while. The faith, and its leaders, are above criticism, to all but a few.

Did you read the link to the article in the official LDS church magazine regarding the Mountain Meadows Massacre? There is plenty of criticism in it. I'll re-post it here. (Click here.) (http://www.lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?vgnextoid=2354fccf2b7db010VgnVCM1000004d 82620aRCRD&locale=0&sourceId=1c234dc029133110VgnVCM100000176f620a____&locale=0)

[CALady]

Did you read the link to the article in the official LDS church magazine regarding the Mountain Meadows Massacre? There is plenty of criticism in it. I'll re-post it here. (Click here.) (http://www.lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?vgnextoid=2354fccf2b7db010VgnVCM1000004d 82620aRCRD&locale=0&sourceId=1c234dc029133110VgnVCM100000176f620a____&locale=0)

I guess we're just supposed to assume every incorrect assumption about our Church is automatically "true" since we're supposed to take "criticism" without question.

It brings to mind how the left views compromise. It's not compromise unless you agree with them 100%.

[noelle12]

I forgot why I stopped posting in LDS threads for a while. The faith, and its leaders, are above criticism, to all but a few.

I don't criticize the faith (by which I mean the teachings of the LDS church) because I believe them to be the word of God, and as such I don't think they are worthy of criticism. I don't criticize the leaders (or at least I try not to) because they are normal, imperfect people (like me) and I understand that they are doing their best (as am I) to serve God to the best of their ability. I don't see a need to try to find every single flaw and weakness that they have. I know they are there, just as mine are.

Jesus said in Matthew 7:1-5
1 Judge not, that ye be not judged.
2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.
3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother’s eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?
4 Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye?
5 Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother’s eye.

[Reeder]

I don't criticize the faith (by which I mean the teachings of the LDS church) because I believe them to be the word of God, and as such I don't think they are worthy of criticism. I don't criticize the leaders (or at least I try not to) because they are normal, imperfect people (like me) and I understand that they are doing their best (as am I) to serve God to the best of their ability. I don't see a need to try to find every single flaw and weakness that they have. I know they are there, just as mine are.

Jesus said in Matthew 7:1-5
1 Judge not, that ye be not judged.
2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.
3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother’s eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?
4 Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye?
5 Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother’s eye.

Excellent post!

[scipio337]

I don't criticize the faith (by which I mean the teachings of the LDS church) because I believe them to be the word of God, and as such I don't think they are worthy of criticism. I don't criticize the leaders (or at least I try not to) because they are normal, imperfect people (like me) and I understand that they are doing their best (as am I) to serve God to the best of their ability. I don't see a need to try to find every single flaw and weakness that they have. I know they are there, just as mine are.

Jesus said in Matthew 7:1-5
1 Judge not, that ye be not judged.
2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.
3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother’s eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?
4 Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye?
5 Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother’s eye.You probably should have stopped with the article that claimed that Young could have handled the situation better.

Have a good one.

[CALady]

You probably should have stopped with the article that claimed that Young could have handled the situation better.

Sure he could have. Is that all you wanted to hear?

Have a good one.

[noelle12]

You probably should have stopped with the article that claimed that Young could have handled the situation better.

Have a good one.

I was just trying to express my own view of criticism, and why, perhaps, LDS people are (hopefully) slow to criticize their leaders. Did I say something wrong?

[CALady]

I was just trying to express my own view of criticism, and why, perhaps, LDS people are (hopefully) slow to criticize their leaders. Did I say something wrong?

It wasn't you. It was me. I didn't give the required response.

[noelle12]

It wasn't you. It was me. I didn't give the required response.

:naughty:shame on you!:)

[CALady]

:naughty:shame on you!:)

I know. I should have prefaced my comment with "although BY is not perfect and made some poor decisions..." before saying that some of what was going on at the time was understandable. But some people don't want the whole picture, I guess.

[CALady]

Also, I would think that someone who believes the Pope is the head of the Church would understand the humanity of the man despite his calling.

[noelle12]

It wasn't you. It was me. I didn't give the required response.

Actually I think scipio337 was talking to me because he quoted my post. It seemed like he didn't like my comment about why I avoid criticism of the LDS church's faith and leaders. I could be wrong, though.

[CALady]

I've never rationalized misdeeds by Popes.

http://embruns.net/logbook/images/chris-crocker.jpg


Leave Brigham alone!

I've never rationalized misdeeds of Prophets. We're even.

Giving historical context to a complex situation is not rationalization. It's education.

[noelle12]

http://embruns.net/logbook/images/chris-crocker.jpg


Leave Brigham alone!

Okay, that's kind of funny. Not really accurate, but funny.

[CALady]

Actually I think scipio337 was talking to me because he quoted my post. It seemed like he didn't like my comment about why I avoid criticism of the LDS church's faith and leaders. I could be wrong, though.

Your comment was clear and obvious to anyone of faith. Why should one be expected to "criticize" your own faith? The whole premise is that you have faith in it's truth.

That doesn't mean we turn off our brain and stop thinking critically. It simply means that one shouldn't expect someone of faith to cow-tow to opponents who wish to characterize that faith always in a negative light.

I don't expect Catholics to agree to all criticism of the Pope and the RCC. I expect them to understand their faith in historical context, and some do. But I never expect them to agree out-of-hand with every critical, negative characterization that pops up.

[Reeder]

Your comment was clear and obvious to anyone of faith. Why should one be expected to "criticize" your own faith? The whole premise is that you have faith in it's truth.

That doesn't mean we turn off our brain and stop thinking critically. It simply means that one shouldn't expect someone of faith to cow-tow to opponents who wish to characterize that faith always in a negative light.

I don't expect Catholics to agree to all criticism of the Pope and the RCC. I expect them to understand their faith in historical context, and some do. But I never expect them to agree out-of-hand with every critical, negative characterization that pops up.

Amen sista Christian! And.......is that really a picture of you in scip's post? :D

[CALady]

Amen sista Christian! And.......is that really a picture of you in scip's post? :D

Is it meant to be?

I missed that.

[Reeder]

Is it meant to be?

I missed that.

:D

I have no idea.

[CALady]

It's a misunderstanding of "critical thinking" to assume that to have credibility, one must be constantly negative or critical. That's not what critical thinking means.

If, in this thread, to have credibility, we must agree with every negative comment without any other perspective, than someone is expecting the unreasonable, if not the irrational.

[RayMan]

It's a misunderstanding of "critical thinking" to assume that to have credibility, one must be constantly negative or critical. That's not what critical thinking means.

If, in this thread, to have credibility, we must agree with every negative comment without any other perspective, than someone is expecting the unreasonable, if not the irrational.

There you go being all reasonable again. You've obviously been hanging out with Reeder too much.

[noelle12]

Is it meant to be?

I missed that.

It's a picture of that person who cried "Leave Brittney alone" on (I think) youtube.

[CALady]

It's a picture of that person who cried "Leave Brittney alone" on (I think) youtube.

Yes, I recognized who it was. I just missed that it was supposed to be me.

I guess I had better expectations of Scipio than that.

[noelle12]

Yes, I recognized who it was. I just missed that it was supposed to be me.

I guess I had better expectations of Scipio than that.

I think he was poking fun at the perception he has that we (LDS folks) are overzealous in protecting our leaders from any criticism. I don't think he was targeting you specifically.

[Reeder]

Yes, I recognized who it was. I just missed that it was supposed to be me.

I guess I had better expectations of Scipio than that.


I think Noelle is right. I was actually half-kidding when I asked if that was supposed to be you. I'm sure it also represents me. Yuck!! :)

[noelle12]

I think Noelle is right. I was actually half-kidding when I asked if that was supposed to be you. I'm sure it also represents me. Yuck!! :)

Sometimes I am so reasonable I drive myself crazy!:cool:

[CALady]

It doesn't matter who Scipio was targeting, if anyone. The reference was still disgusting and unworthy of any intelligent discussion. Thus, I thought it beneath him.

[Bigcanuck]

Oh man... the baptist tracts are making it up to Canada now.

I was over to dinner at another members house and the people that come in to clean the house dropped of a pamphlet called " The Mormon Mystique".

Part of it was entitled "How to witness to Mormons"

The very first line in it was "Don't witness to the missionaries"

Also, I found this one interesting... " Be firm but not overbearing... the mormons respect authority".

Any comments?

[noelle12]

Oh man... the baptist tracts are making it up to Canada now.

I was over to dinner at another members house and the people that come in to clean the house dropped of a pamphlet called " The Mormon Mystique".

Part of it was entitled "How to witness to Mormons"

The very first line in it was "Don't witness to the missionaries"

Also, I found this one interesting... " Be firm but not overbearing... the mormons respect authority".

Any comments?

Why not witness to missionaries?

[Bigcanuck]

AS we saw on the recent caldendar put out by a now excommunicated member, they are pretty big and strong.

They didn't give a reason... I guess because the success rate is probably close to zero.

[scipio337]

It doesn't matter who Scipio was targeting, if anyone. The reference was still disgusting and unworthy of any intelligent discussion. Thus, I thought it beneath him.Which is why I deleted it.

The exceprt I provided was from Dialogue, a journal of Mormon thought. Any intelligent discussion is able to recognize both sides of an argument.

I think I'll stay out of this thread, and for previous mentioned reasons, others as well.

Have a great day, all!

[The Infamous Din]

Thomas W. Murphy and Simon Southerton are two examples. I'm not sure if Murphy was ever "disciplied" for his criticism of Lamanite/DNA connections.

I think what The Infamous Din was trying to say is that Catholics also claim the Pope is guided by the Holy Spirit, and that the MMM is an example of "living prophets" being misguided.

You got me right. That's exactly what I was saying.

There's a movie out about the Mountain Meadow Massacre, but I watched it with my bias detector engaged. You'll notice that, in my post, I softened my reference to the incident because I intended it to be a nudge to those who are already familiar with it - without embarrassing them.

As to the question of which "early posts" I referred to, they've long since rolled into the bit bucket, but Old Tex has been around long enough to have read them. I respect Old Tex even if our exchange seemed a bit oppositional.

[The Infamous Din]

We have been taught to follow the prophet but we also can listen to the spirit ourselves. there are ways that you can tell the difference between an angel of light for real and an angel of satan. Also the scriptures tells us how and what to look for in Christ second coming. If we follow the signs and pray for the spirit we will know.

Thanks for taking my question seriously. Keep your guard up. That's my message about the coming deception. We need to prepare ourselves and hone our scriptural discernment.

Examine the tactics of the enemy. Koresh is an easy place to start. See how he mislead his flock and set them up to be slaughtered by an all too willing secular force.

Notice that the Dragon makes war on the Saints through both deception and violence. This pattern was established long before it was documented in Revelation and continues to this day. Satan plays people against each other. He uses everyone who isn't on guard.

See how the New World Order is constricting around us. See how those on the "left" are pitted against those on the "right" and vice versa. Criminals beget tyrany and tyrany incites criminality. One rebellious individual is as useful as the next, regardless of what colors they are wearing.

They've got us surrounded, which makes them sitting ducks. (: ))

[hillplus]

I forgot why I stopped posting in LDS threads for a while. The faith, and its leaders, are above critisism, to all but a few.

Above criticism? Ha. You know better than that. There is abundant criticism even here at Hannity , let alone off Hannity. Some of it comes from your mouth.

Are we not allowed defend or explain?? Not put things into context? What do you want us to say? "Oops, you are right, Joseph and Brigham weren't perfect, let me hand in my resignation to the Bishop today." Those who believe should be allowed to defend.

I wouldn't ever think to criticize the present Pope or past ones. If I look for flaws, I will find them. I choose to look for the good.

[The Infamous Din]

Above criticism? Ha. You know better than that. There is abundant criticism even here at Hannity , let alone off Hannity. Some of it comes from your mouth.

Are we not allowed defend or explain?? Not put things into context? What do you want us to say? "Oops, you are right, Joseph and Brigham weren't perfect, let me hand in my resignation to the Bishop today." Those who believe should be allowed to defend.

I wouldn't ever think to criticize the present Pope or past ones. If I look for flaws, I will find them. I choose to look for the good.

I would criticize the Popes, past and present, but carefully. I look for the truth. The truth is always good, albeit hard, at times, to see or to take. The truth must never be subordinated to social acceptability. Sadly, it usually is.

[noelle12]

Which is why I deleted it.

The excerpt I provided was from Dialogue, a journal of Mormon thought. Any intelligent discussion is able to recognize both sides of an argument.

I think I'll stay out of this thread, and for previous mentioned reasons, others as well.

Have a great day, all!

I wish you wouldn't go. I would have liked to get your feedback on my post regarding why I do not criticize the LDS faith and its leaders. It seemed like you didn't like it, but didn't say why.

[noelle12]

You got me right. That's exactly what I was saying.

There's a movie out about the Mountain Meadow Massacre, but I watched it with my bias detector engaged. You'll notice that, in my post, I softened my reference to the incident because I intended it to be a nudge to those who are already familiar with it - without embarrassing them.

As to the question of which "early posts" I referred to, they've long since rolled into the bit bucket, but Old Tex has been around long enough to have read them. I respect Old Tex even if our exchange seemed a bit oppositional.

Did you read the article regarding the Mountain Meadows Massacre that I linked to?

[The Infamous Din]

Did you read the article regarding the Mountain Meadows Massacre that I linked to?

I'll give it a fair and discerning examination - as I did with the movies I referenced in this thread.

[hillplus]

I would criticize the Popes, past and present, but carefully. I look for the truth. The truth is always good, albeit hard, at times, to see or to take. The truth must never be subordinated to social acceptability. Sadly, it usually is.

Truth is a funny thing. For example, in fifty years, who do you think will have a more accurate truth in their history books, The Chinese or the Tibetans?

[noelle12]

I'll give it a fair and discerning examination - as I did with the movies I referenced in this thread.

I look forward to hearing (reading) your impression of the article.

[The Infamous Din]

Truth is a funny thing. For example, in fifty years, who do you think will have a more accurate truth in their history books, The Chinese or the Tibetans?

I try to stay objective, as best I can. This ties in to my earlier post in which I exhort people to stay vigilant against deception.

[The Infamous Din]

Thanks for taking my question seriously. Keep your guard up. That's my message about the coming deception. We need to prepare ourselves and hone our scriptural discernment.

Examine the tactics of the enemy. Koresh is an easy place to start. See how he mislead his flock and set them up to be slaughtered by an all too willing secular force.

Notice that the Dragon makes war on the Saints through both deception and violence. This pattern was established long before it was documented in Revelation and continues to this day. Satan plays people against each other. He uses everyone who isn't on guard.

See how the New World Order is constricting around us. See how those on the "left" are pitted against those on the "right" and vice versa. Criminals beget tyrany and tyrany incites criminality. One rebellious individual is as useful as the next, regardless of what colors they are wearing.

They've got us surrounded, which makes them sitting ducks. (: ))

Ah, here it is. Even now, the beast is rising from the sea.

[hillplus]

I look forward to hearing (reading) your impression of the article.

I hadn't read the article since it was first printed. It is quite painful to read.

Of course, an entire religion shouldn't be condemned because of the actions of a few.

[hillplus]

I try to stay objective, as best I can. This ties in to my earlier post in which I exhort people to stay vigilant against deception.

I agree that we need to vigilant. The Holy Ghost is the final arbiter of truth.

I don't believe that humans are capable of being truly objective. We carry too much baggage. imho

[Old Tex]

There's a movie out about the Mountain Meadow Massacre, but I watched it with my bias detector engaged.

I presume that you mean the one with John Voit? Evidently a lot of people had their bias detector engaged. It's producer tried for six months to get enough theaters to run it to make a profit and then it lost money and quickly dived into a black hole.

[The Infamous Din]

I agree that we need to vigilant. The Holy Ghost is the final arbiter of truth.

I don't believe that humans are capable of being truly objective. We carry too much baggage. imho

It's something to strive for. We can't resign to letting someone else make our decisions for us. We won't be able to say, "Well, that's the way I was raised," on Judgement Day.

[The Infamous Din]

I presume that you mean the one with John Voit? Evidently a lot of people had their bias detector engaged. It's producer tried for six months to get enough theaters to run it to make a profit and then it lost money and quickly dived into a black hole.

That's the one. I watched it the day after I watched the series, "The Work and the Glory."

Tone of voice is a dead give away. I don't dismiss the movie entirely, though. I think my use of the phrase, "if there's any truth to..." was a fair way to make my point.

[CALady]

Which is why I deleted it.

The exceprt I provided was from Dialogue, a journal of Mormon thought. Any intelligent discussion is able to recognize both sides of an argument.

I think I'll stay out of this thread, and for previous mentioned reasons, others as well.

Have a great day, all!

Thank you for editing your post. I figured it was beneath you.

You have no need to not post in this or any other thread. I assume you understand that people will not always agree with you and I'm sure you're capable of dealing with that.

As for an "excerpt". What excerpt? Did I miss something?

And of course, there are always different perspectives to any historical event. I'm sure you realize that all I was doing was putting some history into it's context, not denying any facts. Context is often critical to understanding history, and I'm sure you agree with that.

[Old Tex]

I watched it the day after I watched the series, "The Work and the Glory."

Where did you watch the series, "The Work and the Glory"?

[CALady]

That's the one. I watched it the day after I watched the series, "The Work and the Glory."

Tone of voice is a dead give away. I don't dismiss the movie entirely, though. I think my use of the phrase, "if there's any truth to..." was a fair way to make my point.

I'm still missing your "point" on that one.

"If" your point is that prophets are imperfect, then we agree. They are still men although with a particular calling and responsibility.

"If" your point is that we are incredibly gullible people, then I'll just assume you don't know many Mormons in real life.

[noelle12]

I hadn't read the article since it was first printed. It is quite painful to read.

Of course, an entire religion shouldn't be condemned because of the actions of a few.

I agree, it was a painful read. While I am not an avid student of the Mountain Meadows Massacre, the article did seem pretty truthful and unbiased.

[The Infamous Din]

Where did you watch the series, "The Work and the Glory"?

I rented the DVD's from my local video store. I saw the same tendencies highlighted in the series that were at work in the non-denominational church I used to attend.

Once you recognize how people operate, you start seeing it everywhere. Attitudes are like out-of-state license plates. Once you start pointing them out, they're everywhere. hehe.

The characteristics that the actor playing Joseph Smith used to convey "spirituality" were the same ones that some of my fellow Christians used to pursuade each other that they were more spiritual than those other "so-called" Christians. Certain mannerisms, like glassy eyed gazes and vocal modulations are staple manipulations.

"Speaking in love" should not be construed to be "speaking in a loving tone that makes the girls swoon." hehe. "Listening in love" is also a nice thing to do.

[CALady]

I rented the DVD's from my local video store. I saw the same tendencies highlighted in the series that were at work in the non-denominational church I used to attend.

Once you recognize how people operate, you start seeing it everywhere. Attitudes are like out-of-state license plates. Once you start pointing them out, they're everywhere. hehe.

The characteristics that the actor playing Joseph Smith used to convey "spirituality" were the same ones that some of my fellow Christians used to pursuade each other that they were more spiritual than those other "so-called" Christians. Certain mannerisms, like glassy eyed gazes and vocal modulations are a staple manipulations.

"Speaking in love" should not be construed to be "speaking in a loving tone that makes the girls swoon." hehe. "Listening in love" is also a nice thing to do.

You realize that in that series, an actor played Joseph Smith, right?

[The Infamous Din]

You realize that in that series, an actor played Joseph Smith, right?

I believe I stated that clearly in my post. It was part of my point.

[CALady]

I believe I stated that clearly in my post. It was part of my point.

Oh, I thought you were saying the real Joseph Smith was the one making girls swoon.

With all due respect to Gerald Lund, the whole style of the books was reminiscent of one of those Romance Novels. I think it has to be understood in that context.

[CALady]

And I think the movie representation was even more Romantic, if that's possible.

[noelle12]

I rented the DVD's from my local video store. I saw the same tendencies highlighted in the series that were at work in the non-denominational church I used to attend.

Once you recognize how people operate, you start seeing it everywhere. Attitudes are like out-of-state license plates. Once you start pointing them out, they're everywhere. hehe.

The characteristics that the actor playing Joseph Smith used to convey "spirituality" were the same ones that some of my fellow Christians used to pursuade each other that they were more spiritual than those other "so-called" Christians. Certain mannerisms, like glassy eyed gazes and vocal modulations are staple manipulations.

"Speaking in love" should not be construed to be "speaking in a loving tone that makes the girls swoon." hehe. "Listening in love" is also a nice thing to do.

I find that generally when books are made into movies, the movies are never quite as good as the books.

Still, I am a pretty easy audience, and I generally find pleasure in even decent movies.

I found "The Work and the Glory" series to be helpful to learn about early LDS church history, and to be easily read by even younger readers.

If you want a pretty good read, there is a 3 book series called "Fishers of Men" by the same author. I liked that series even better than "The Work and the Glory."

[The Infamous Din]

Oh, I thought you were saying the real Joseph Smith was the one making girls swoon.

With all due respect to Gerald Lund, the whole style of the books was reminiscent of one of those Romance Novels. I think it has to be understood in that context.

I wouldn't know if Mr Smith made the girls swoon, but from what I've seen, I wouldn't presume that he didn't. Just look at which Presidents get the "women's vote." hehe.

[CALady]

I wouldn't know if Mr Smith made the girls swoon, but from what I've seen, I wouldn't presume that he didn't. Just look at which Presidents get the "women's vote." hehe.

There might be a point there if the President of the Church were elected by the members.

But, he's elected by a bunch of old men. ;)

[The Infamous Din]

Women tend to make their power plays covertly. It's called, "plausible deniability."

[The Infamous Din]

I would criticize the Popes, past and present, but carefully. I look for the truth. The truth is always good, albeit hard, at times, to see or to take. The truth must never be subordinated to social acceptability. Sadly, it usually is.


http://forums.hannity.com/showthread.php?t=740131

See. I'm true to my word.

[Old Tex]

Oh man... the baptist tracts are making it up to Canada now.

I was over to dinner at another members house and the people that come in to clean the house dropped of a pamphlet called " The Mormon Mystique".

Part of it was entitled "How to witness to Mormons"

The very first line in it was "Don't witness to the missionaries"

Also, I found this one interesting... " Be firm but not overbearing... the mormons respect authority".

Any comments?

Did the pamphlets have their publisher listed on them? Is it any wonder that good Baptist people believe what is written in them? As a former Baptist myself, I know how closed minded the ones I knew were. Too bad. It's an attitude of "I'm saved, and I'm not interested in hearing anything other than what my preacher says."

[Fire Watch]

As a former Baptist myself, I know how closed minded most of them are. Too bad. It's an attitude of "I'm saved, and I'm not interested in hearing anything other than what my preacher says."
Wow. What a rude, condescending, and disrespectful statement. I'll leave this one to another mod however.

[RayMan]

Did the pamphlets have their publisher listed on them? Is it any wonder that good Baptist people believe what is written in them? As a former Baptist myself, I know how closed minded most of them are. Too bad. It's an attitude of "I'm saved, and I'm not interested in hearing anything other than what my preacher says."

In modified form that probably applies to just about any religious group. Once someone has made their mind up what they believe they tend not to care much about what any other group teaches.

Case in point, some LDS folk almost never venture outside of the "Ask a Mormon" thread.

[Old Tex]

Wow. What a rude, condescending, and disrespectful statement. I'll leave this one to another mod however.

I don't think my comment was either. I mearly stated my expeirence. Most of my friends were in the Baptist church I attended many years ago and that's the way that they thought, including me. Don't try to blow this up into something that it's not. You haven't seen the anti-mormon pamphlets that were printed by the Southern Baptist Convention that I have. I'm just glad that I decided to look into things for myself before believing what they said.

[hben]

Wow. What a rude, condescending, and disrespectful statement. I'll leave this one to another mod however.

Fire Watch, as a Baptist minister, I don't appreciate this post at all. Do I need to go to someone besides you or has it already been reported?

As a former Baptist myself, I know how closed minded most of them are. Too bad. It's an attitude of "I'm saved, and I'm not interested in hearing anything other than what my preacher says."

[Fire Watch]

Fire Watch, I don't appreciate this post at all. Do I need to go to someone besides you or has it already been reported?
It has not been reported. I however wont be handling the compliant.

[hillplus]

Fire Watch, as a Baptist minister, I don't appreciate this post at all. Do I need to go to someone besides you or has it already been reported?

Old Tex probably should have said some instead of many. He seems to be generally kind. He speaks from his experience as a former Baptist.

[Snagglepuss]

O.T., I am sure you did not mean it to come off that way, but I can see both hben's and FW's point of view. If someone were to say "As a former Mormon myself, I know how closed minded most of them are" I would not be shocked to see some of us upset by that. For the sake of polite discourse, would you please consider rewording your statement? :pray:

[The Infamous Din]

We've all seen bullheadedness in our time. OldTex is merely pointing out an example of it, so let's just go thick skinned on this one, shall we?

OldTex is ok in my book.

[Frazzled]

O.T., I am sure you did not mean it to come off that way, but I can see both hben's and FW's point of view. If someone were to say "As a former Mormon myself, I know how closed minded most of them are" I would not be shocked to see some of us upset by that. For the sake of polite discourse, would you please consider rewording your statement? :pray:

I agree that anyone of us would take offense if the roles were reverse, but does this kind of statement really constitute a reportable offense? That seems a bit like overkill for something that could just be worked out in the thread.

[hben]

It has not been reported. I however wont be handling the compliant.

Fair enough, thanks.

[Snagglepuss]

In modified form that probably applies to just about any religious group. Once someone has made their mind up what they believe they tend not to care much about what any other group teaches.

Case in point, some LDS folk almost never venture outside of the "Ask a Mormon" thread.I will agree with the premise of this statement, though in all fairness, the "case in point" is not entirely iron-clad. I'm not saying there may not be some truth to it, but the lack of posting in a thread does not necessarily = the lack of interest. For instance, I often read threads outside of this one but do not post for a wide variety of reasons. It may be that I did not feel I had anything worth adding. What I would have said may have already been far more eloquently put. Or perhaps I felt I really didn't know enough about the topic to discuss it intelligently. Once in a rare while, I even feel that the topic is simply too charged for me to say anything without risking incivility.

I hope this isn't coming off as adversarial against you Ray....I have tons of respect for you. I just wanted to point out that there are other reasons for not posting in other topics than disinterest. :hug:

[hben]

O.T., I am sure you did not mean it to come off that way, but I can see both hben's and FW's point of view. If someone were to say "As a former Mormon myself, I know how closed minded most of them are" I would not be shocked to see some of us upset by that. For the sake of polite discourse, would you please consider rewording your statement? :pray:

I have posted things before without putting much thought into my posts, but I think we all can do better. I know I am trying harder to think of how I come across to those of other faiths.

[Snagglepuss]

I agree that anyone of us would take offense if the roles were reverse, but does this kind of statement really constitute a reportable offense? That seems a bit like overkill for something that could just be worked out in the thread.I agree...that's why I'm trying to work it out in the thread before it ends up in the TTTM. :D

[RayMan]

I will agree with the premise of this statement, though in all fairness, the "case in point" is not entirely iron-clad. I'm not saying there may not be some truth to it, but the lack of posting in a thread does not necessarily = the lack of interest. For instance, I often read threads outside of this one but do not post for a wide variety of reasons. It may be that I did not feel I had anything worth adding. What I would have said may have already been far more eloquently put. Or perhaps I felt I really didn't know enough about the topic to discuss it intelligently. Once in a rare while, I even feel that the topic is simply too charged for me to say anything without risking incivility.

I hope this isn't coming off as adversarial against you Ray....I have tons of respect for you. I just wanted to point out that there are other reasons for not posting in other topics than disinterest. :hug:

No worries. You correctly point out that the fact of not posting in a thread does not necessarily imply a lack of interest. I almost never post in the evo or atheist threads but I peruse them on a regular basis.

[Old Tex]

Fire Watch, as a Baptist minister, I don't appreciate this post at all. Do I need to go to someone besides you or has it already been reported?


Ever read the pamphlet intitled "The Menace of Mormonism"? On the back it said "Printed by the Sunday School Board of the Southern Baptist Convention". It was distributed by preachers of Baptist churches that were affiliated with the Southern Baptist Convention.

Then another one I remembers was called "The Mormon Puzzle" that was distributed by the Southern Baptist Convention when they held their meeting in Salt Lake City a few years ago. It too was full of much "misinformation".

According to another poster this same kind of pamphlet is now being distributed in Canada.

So hben, you don't appreciate me commenting on a true personal expierence of mine? I also do not appreciate an organization like the SBC distributing the rubbish they are. Are you going to defend their actions?