Ask a Mormon

[Bigcanuck]

Oh no, I come from British Columbia Canada. Pothole can definitely mean the same thing as SF. In fact, probably even more so ( unless you are refering specifically to the Berkeley area, then it is probably equal).

Not a fan of potholes. I have a deep abiding bigotry towards accepting potholes as the norm. Either of them.

[Bigcanuck]

noelle,
I have read the first two installments of the Kingdom and the Crown. Well written and I'm just waiting for my next utah trip to pick up the third book (hopefully discounted).

Did you know there is an outlet store for Deseret Books that has a bunch of stuff on discount? Kind of like a clearing house. They had scriptures that had been ordered with names on them and then there was either a mistake on the name or they never got picked up. Get a nice set of leather bound scriptures for about half the going price. The one I found was in South Jordan if you ever are in the area.

[RayMan]

Oh no, I come from British Columbia Canada. Pothole can definitely mean the same thing as SF. In fact, probably even more so ( unless you are refering specifically to the Berkeley area, then it is probably equal).

Not a fan of potholes. I have a deep abiding bigotry towards accepting potholes as the norm. Either of them.


I am a big fan of Berkeley. My mom ran the computers for the Berkeley Police back in the '60s and I was always on my best behavior when driving or parking there because she ran all the tickets through the computer and I was NOT supposed to be there.

:)

[noelle12]

noelle,
I have read the first two installments of the Kingdom and the Crown. Well written and I'm just waiting for my next utah trip to pick up the third book (hopefully discounted).

Did you know there is an outlet store for Deseret Books that has a bunch of stuff on discount? Kind of like a clearing house. They had scriptures that had been ordered with names on them and then there was either a mistake on the name or they never got picked up. Get a nice set of leather bound scriptures for about half the going price. The one I found was in South Jordan if you ever are in the area.

I saw all of the books in paperback for 9.99 on amazon.

I don't get to Utah very often,maybe every couple of years, but I have a lot of family who live there. Most of them live north of Salt Lake City. I'll bet one of them could find some good stuff for me. The thing is that now that you can order via internet, it is so much easier to get LDS church related books and other materials. They probably have better access to discounted products, though. Thanks for the info.

[noelle12]

I'm envisioning spinning blades that pop up and out of the sprinkler heads on a timed bases. Of course, that might be a little dangerous if anyone is taking a stroll across the grass at such an unfortunate time.

That'll teach 'em to keep off my lawn!

[Old Tex]

That'll teach 'em to keep off my lawn!

We've gone from pot holes to booby traps?

Although I have hit some pot holes that I felt were booby traps.

[Old Tex]

noelle,
I have read the first two installments of the Kingdom and the Crown. Well written and I'm just waiting for my next utah trip to pick up the third book (hopefully discounted).

Did you know there is an outlet store for Deseret Books that has a bunch of stuff on discount? Kind of like a clearing house. They had scriptures that had been ordered with names on them and then there was either a mistake on the name or they never got picked up. Get a nice set of leather bound scriptures for about half the going price. The one I found was in South Jordan if you ever are in the area.

Hi Big C. I have bought a few kids books from a net site you might check out. http://www.latterdaylightbooks.com/catalog.php?Iit=2203&Ict=36

Sometimes some real bargains can be had by looking in the left column on the site and clicking on "scratch and dents". I got some $5.00 gospel story/color books for my great grand kids for $1.00 each.

[SuperD]

Firewatch it seems like you have been seeking truth all your life. the LDS believe that you shouldn't follow like sheep instead if you wonder about something you should pray about it and ask God to help you understand it. Sorry I don't remember where the scripture is that says "Seek and ye shall find Ask and it shall be given you". But I like that one. I was born a mormon but have built my own testimony through prayer. I have had many prayers answered not always the way I would want though.:)

[Old Tex]

Firewatch it seems like you have been seeking truth all your life. the LDS believe that you shouldn't follow like sheep instead if you wonder about something you should pray about it and ask God to help you understand it. Sorry I don't remember where the scripture is that says "Seek and ye shall find Ask and it shall be given you". But I like that one. I was born a mormon but have built my own testimony through prayer. I have had many prayers answered not always the way I would want though.:)

A welcome to you, SuperD. Are you the Super Dave of TV fame I saw a few years ago?

[Old Tex]

Mormons Make Their Voices Heard — Digitally

SALT LAKE CITY, Utah — In an age when the Internet has become a primary way that people communicate, three young Latter-day Saint women endeavor to discuss their faith. They don't do it in their Sunday best sitting in a church house; they do it sitting in front of a Web cam with a high-speed connection.

“We wanted to create a space where people could come to discuss religion,” one said.

“The response [to the videos] has been great. People are talking. We wanted people to talk. You don't have to agree with me, but just creating the space to talk has been beneficial.”

In an effort to create more “space for talking,” many members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints are making their voices heard digitally.

West Allen, a Church member from Las Vegas , organized an activity designed to allow young members of Mormon congregations near his home to share their beliefs on video, later to be posted online. Allen hopes the footage will have a positive impact on those that see it.

“In my mind, watching something on the Internet can be as effective as meeting face to face,” Allen said. “People can feel when something is genuine.”

Creating a forum to discuss religion is a growing phenomenon on the Internet. Like many issues before it, religion has become a topic of discussion for scholars and “YouTubers” alike.

According to a recent CNN report, approximately 79 million users watched more than three billion videos on YouTube.com, a video sharing Web site, in January of 2008. In addition, as of early April 2008, there were more than 84 million videos available for viewing on the site.

Elder M. Russell Ballard, a senior leader in the Church, emphasized, in a recent speech given on the Brigham Young University-Hawaii campus, how important it is for members to join the ongoing online conversations concerning religion.

He has also noted that Church members should express their feelings and beliefs but that they of course should not present themselves as speaking officially for the Church.

In response to Elder Ballard's remarks, many members of the Church are doing what they can to use the Internet as a tool to communicate with friends and strangers alike by creating blogs and posting materials on video sharing sites.

“My goal is to put the right information out there. I want to do what I can to dispel the misconceptions and misunderstanding concerning our faith,” says David Grow, an active

YouTuber and member of the Church. “I have received hundreds of messages from Church members and those of other faiths saying they are glad I put up the videos.”

Those posting video emphasized the key roles accuracy and authenticity play when discussing religion online.

They say that though some may not agree with all aspects of your theology, if you check your facts and share with honesty and with dignified expressions of personal belief, most people will respect that. Further, they stress the necessity for a kind of “credible openness” that is expected online.

“Speak on what you know,” Las Vegas youth leader West Allen says. “Make it personal. They [members] should share how the Church or the gospel has personally benefited them and their families.”

Many Mormons using video sharing sites are tapping into the resources available to them on the official Web pages of the Church, including the Church's newsroom website.

This article was prepared by the LDS Newsroom at lds.org.

[justamere10]

Mormons Make Their Voices Heard — Digitally

SALT LAKE CITY, Utah — In an age when the Internet has become a primary way that people communicate, three young Latter-day Saint women endeavor to discuss their faith.... This article was prepared by the LDS Newsroom at lds.org.

This is now happening a lot as more Latter-day Saints become aware of how much misinformation there is about their religious beliefs in circulation on the Internet.

Even the founder of Jet Blue Airlines has set up a foundation to help correct that misinformation. And it's one of the main topics at Mormon Sites as well.

Edited to remove link that may be contrary to this board's rules. Thanks for the tip August.

[SuperD]

No I'm not super dave but my husband is. I have a son that was on a mission in Houston a few years ago.

[Alaric]

Well, at least you are not Super Dell (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dell_Schanze).

[Fire Watch]

Firewatch it seems like you have been seeking truth all your life. the LDS believe that you shouldn't follow like sheep instead if you wonder about something you should pray about it and ask God to help you understand it. Sorry I don't remember where the scripture is that says "Seek and ye shall find Ask and it shall be given you". But I like that one. I was born a mormon but have built my own testimony through prayer. I have had many prayers answered not always the way I would want though.:)

There are 3264 posts in this thread. I have 79 of them. That is roughly .024% of the total...yet with your first post on these boards, you address me. Perhaps it's you that's seeking more truth and that is the reason you sought me out. Perhaps you're following your own belief that you shouldnt "follow like sheep". If so, congrats. The folks at the following website may be able to help more than I can. http://exmormon.org/ Good luck and God bless.

Disclaimer on the link..there may be some foul language in some of the articles found at the site.

[RayMan]

Well, at least you are not Super Dell (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dell_Schanze).


I loved SuperDave. Can you remember when he started out as a CHP officer name "Officer Judy" on the Smothers Brothers show back in '68? (I do.)

[Alaric]

So I follow FW's link, see a board, and the first thing I find is an F-bomb. Good one.

[Fire Watch]

I've searched the entire front page at that site and find no such thing.

[orbitaldecay]

Well, at least you are not Super Dell (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dell_Schanze).

That poor man...


SO PATHETIC
:)) :))

[noelle12]

Well, at least you are not Super Dell (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dell_Schanze).

I actually knew him when he was a little kid. We were in the same ward. I don't live in Utah, and don't get there too often, so I wasn't really aware of his exploits.

[HokieCougarVandal]

Ok ... back to the topics at hand.

I had a very interesting conversation with my youngest son (almost 8yr) this weekend. We were talking about the resurrection, how the spirit and body are reunited, what happens at death during the millenial reign, and so forth. He asked me if he could choose not to be resurrected, to which I responded with the patent answer of "It's a free gift to you from Jesus. Because of His resurrection, He made it possible that all who have lived on this earth will live again forever." Then I added something that made me think about what I had just said. I added, "We really don't have a choice in the matter."

So my question to all is this:
Free agency is essential to our exaltation (what happens at judgement). But when we talk of salvation (all shall be resurrected) and that all are saved (from death), it seems to me that free agency does not factor. Don't take me wrong. I am looking forward to putting on immortality. But doesn't the lack of a choice, between being resurrected and not, deny the very free agency law to which we adhere and espouse? Or will it be another choice we will have to make when the time comes?

I haven't delved into it yet (but I will soon), but I just wanted to see what you all thought about this.

[justamere10]

Ok ... back to the topics at hand.

I had a very interesting conversation with my youngest son (almost 8yr) this weekend. We were talking about the resurrection, how the spirit and body are reunited, what happens at death during the millenial reign, and so forth. He asked me if he could choose not to be resurrected, to which I responded with the patent answer of "It's a free gift to you from Jesus. Because of His resurrection, He made it possible that all who have lived on this earth will live again forever." Then I added something that made me think about what I had just said. I added, "We really don't have a choice in the matter."

So my question to all is this:
Free agency is essential to our exaltation (what happens at judgement). But when we talk of salvation (all shall be resurrected) and that all are saved (from death), it seems to me that free agency does not factor. Don't take me wrong. I am looking forward to putting on immortality. But doesn't the lack of a choice, between being resurrected and not, deny the very free agency law to which we adhere and espouse? Or will it be another choice we will have to make when the time comes?

I haven't delved into it yet (but I will soon), but I just wanted to see what you all thought about this.

Does a child have a choice not to grow up?

Some things are just part of our nature. Even though we should call upon the mountains to cover us up we will not cease to exist; and that is the pain of the damned, they know had they made right choices during their vital lifetime "second estate" they could have lived forever with God. Those who choose the right are not interested in hiding from God, they WANT to be in His presence.

Resurrection is a free gift from God, as is the nurturing milk a mother offers her child. We are all children of the same God.

[noelle12]

Ok ... back to the topics at hand.

I had a very interesting conversation with my youngest son (almost 8yr) this weekend. We were talking about the resurrection, how the spirit and body are reunited, what happens at death during the millenial reign, and so forth. He asked me if he could choose not to be resurrected, to which I responded with the patent answer of "It's a free gift to you from Jesus. Because of His resurrection, He made it possible that all who have lived on this earth will live again forever." Then I added something that made me think about what I had just said. I added, "We really don't have a choice in the matter."

So my question to all is this:
Free agency is essential to our exaltation (what happens at judgement). But when we talk of salvation (all shall be resurrected) and that all are saved (from death), it seems to me that free agency does not factor. Don't take me wrong. I am looking forward to putting on immortality. But doesn't the lack of a choice, between being resurrected and not, deny the very free agency law to which we adhere and espouse? Or will it be another choice we will have to make when the time comes?

I haven't delved into it yet (but I will soon), but I just wanted to see what you all thought about this.

May I start by saying that it is really frustrating when almost 8 year olds ask tough questions that I can't answer. Can't you stifle that creativity and independent thought? JK. Here's my thought:

There are choices and there are consequences. It seems like avoiding the resurrection is like trying to avoid the final judgment. The only people who would want to not be resurrected would be the people who have rejected the atonement of the Savior. When we decided to accept our Heavenly Father's Plan in the pre-existence, we also agreed to all of the stipulations that went along with it. They included birth, mortal life, death, and resurrection. We can't say half-way through, "I changed my mind. I didn't want to accept Heavenly Father's Plan in the pre-existence after all."

This is not LDS church doctrine, only my thoughts. I would love to hear others' opinions on this. Sounds like your almost 8 year old is a smart kid!

[CALady]

There are 3264 posts in this thread. I have 79 of them. That is roughly .024% of the total...yet with your first post on these boards, you address me. Perhaps it's you that's seeking more truth and that is the reason you sought me out. Perhaps you're following your own belief that you shouldnt "follow like sheep". If so, congrats. The folks at the following website may be able to help more than I can. http://exmormon.org/ Good luck and God bless.

Disclaimer on the link..there may be some foul language in some of the articles found at the site.

Are you serious??

Shouldn't that be reported to a mod?

[Bigcanuck]

Hi Big C. I have bought a few kids books from a net site you might check out. http://www.latterdaylightbooks.com/catalog.php?Iit=2203&Ict=36

Sometimes some real bargains can be had by looking in the left column on the site and clicking on "scratch and dents". I got some $5.00 gospel story/color books for my great grand kids for $1.00 each.

thanks Old Tex and Noelle... I will check those sites out. I love to read and it sometimes gets a little expensive buying all the lds books brand new. Love the library, but up here in BC there are few lds books (or none) in our library.

[CALady]

A site written by people with some obvious psychological issues, using foul language. No wonder you have such a distorted view of Mormons, FW.

Did you ever consider that maybe you should look at more reliable sources?

Do you make your political decisions based on sites like "Move-on.org"? Or do you realize that some people make a living out of lies and distortion and you're smart enough to avoid such sites?

[Fire Watch]

A site written by people with some obvious psychological issues, using foul language. No wonder you have such a distorted view of Mormons, FW.

Did you ever consider that maybe you should look at more reliable sources?

Do you make your political decisions based on sites like "Move-on.org"? Or do you realize that some people make a living out of lies and distortion and you're smart enough to avoid such sites?

It's a board/site with thousands of participants. The majority of whom are former Mormons...so they MUST have psychological issues according to you. No chance they simply disagree with the teachings of the LDS and wish to share their experiences and help others. I get my information from "approved" LDS sites and sites like exmormon.org, as well as observing/interacting with posters here...I'd bet my view isnt really "distorted" at all given that some things I've seen from Mormon posters here line up exactly with the way some folks at exmormon.org describe their experiences.

This post from you is exactly why sites like www.exmormon.org (http://www.exmormon.org) are needed. Mormons for the most part will blast any former Mormon that dares speak out. Posts like yours reveal why ex-Mormons need support groups IMO.

In case you didnt notice, there are no advertisements on that site. No one is "making a living" off of that site.

You've reported the link/post and me..it was ruled to be completely within the rules..so kindly stop attacking the poster and move on.

[CALady]

It's a board/site with thousands of participants. The majority of whom are former Mormons...so they MUST have psychological issues according to you. No chance they simply disagree with the teachings of the LDS and wish to share their experiences and help others. I get my information from "approved" LDS sites and sites like exmormon.org, as well as observing/interacting with posters here...I'd bet my view isnt really "distorted" at all given that some things I've seen from Mormon posters here line up exactly with the way some folks at exmormon.org describe their experiences.

This post from you is exactly why sites like www.exmormon.org (http://www.exmormon.org) are needed. Mormons for the most part will blast any former Mormon that dares speak out. Posts like yours reveal why ex-Mormons need support groups IMO.

In case you didnt notice, there are no advertisements on that site. No one is "making a living" off of that site.

You've reported the link/post and me..it was ruled to be completely within the rules..so kindly stop attacking the poster and move on.

I don't recall "attacking the poster". I questioned why anybody would read obviously distorted web sites to form their opinions. You answered the question.

I see that site in the same tone as move-on.org. Why would someone who feels they've now experienced the truth of the Gospel and be filled with the Holy Spirit use foul language? It's not a sign of God's truth in my book.

But, read it if you need that kind of reinforcement of your beliefs.

[CALady]

And honestly, I found it a rather rude response to SuperD who was just giving you their heartfelt testimony. It sounded like you felt SuperD was too stupid and blind and needed to read some "truth". It seemed like you were attacking the poster.

[Fire Watch]

Why would someone who feels they've now experienced the truth of the Gospel and be filled with the Holy Spirit use foul language? It's not a sign of God's truth in my book.
From the very top of the page at www.exmormon.org (http://www.exmormon.org)


A site for those who are


Questioning their faith in the Mormon Church


And for those who need support


As they transition their lives to


a normal life.


We are not affiliated with any religion


and we do not advocate any religion.


It isnt designed for those who "Feel they've now experienced the truth of the Gospel"..it a support site for ex-Mormons.

[CALady]

From the very top of the page at www.exmormon.org (http://www.exmormon.org)


A site for those who are


Questioning their faith in the Mormon Church


And for those who need support


As they transition their lives to


a normal life.


We are not affiliated with any religion


and we do not advocate any religion.


It isnt designed for those who "Feel they've now experienced the truth of the Gospel"..it a support site for ex-Mormons.


SuperD isn't an ex-Mormon. So I'm not sure why you felt she needed to read it. I don't think she needs a support group.

[AugustGem]

This is now happening a lot as more Latter-day Saints become aware of how much misinformation there is about their religious beliefs in circulation on the Internet.

It's one of the main topics of discussion on the LDS Cyber Missionary board:




-

Just a heads up, it is against the rules to post a link to another forum directing traffic off this board. (you may want to edit)

:)

[hillplus]

From the very top of the page at www.exmormon.org (http://www.exmormon.org)


A site for those who are


Questioning their faith in the Mormon Church


And for those who need support


As they transition their lives to


a normal life.


We are not affiliated with any religion


and we do not advocate any religion.


It isnt designed for those who "Feel they've now experienced the truth of the Gospel"..it a support site for ex-Mormons.

Love the statement NORMAL LIFE.

This would suggest that anyone who is a believing LDS is abnormal.

You are right, it is a support site for ex mormons. They have an ax to grind.

I am with CALady on this.

[RayMan]

Just a heads up, it is against the rules to post a link to another forum directing traffic off this board. (you may want to edit)

:)


You might want to edit the webpage address out of your quote also. ;)

[Old Tex]

You might want to edit the webpage address out of your quote also. ;)

Rayman,

Please allow me to use your post to make a point....

It makes one worder why links to positive sites about LDS can't be posted, but links to negative sites about LDS are OK to post?

I was banned a couple of weeks ago for posting a geneology link which was supposedly "offensive" to some here. Yet the same mod who banned me posts a link to a site which is "offensive" to some here also, yet I see no banning for that. Just sayin'.....

[scipio337]

Rayman,

Please allow me to use your post to make a point....

It makes one worder why links to positive sites about LDS can't be posted, but links to negative sites about LDS are OK to post?

I was banned a couple of weeks ago for posting a geneology link which was supposedly "offensive" to some here. Yet the same mod who banned me posts a link to a site which is "offensive" to some here also, yet I see no banning for that. Just sayin'.....Apples and rutabagas. Perhaps because one is a specifically a forum?

You posted a link after the ruling (which was later overturned). I'm sure you were fully aware of the COM you were acting out, but did anyway.

[CALady]

Apples and rutabagas. Perhaps because one is a specifically a forum?

You posted a link after the ruling (which was later overturned). I'm sure you were fully aware of the COM you were acting out, but did anyway.

What's a "COM"?

[scipio337]

What's a "COM"?Contempt of Mod (ruling)

[RayMan]

Yes, that's my understanding, too. I was just usuing your post as a "and that reminds me of".....kind of thing. It really did not address your post specifically. Sorry for any confusion.


Not a problem. ;)

[hillplus]

Apples and rutabagas. Perhaps because one is a specifically a forum?

You posted a link after the ruling (which was later overturned). I'm sure you were fully aware of the COM you were acting out, but did anyway.

So it is O.K. for a mod to post links, but not the average joe shmoe. Does not seem right. Should not the mod be held to the same standard, if not a HIGHER standard.

[scipio337]

So it is O.K. for a mod to post links, but not the average joe shmoe. Does not seem right. Should not the mod be held to the same standard, if not a HIGHER standard.No, it is OK for a mod and joe schmoe to post links to websites that do not take away traffic from this site (ie, other forums).

It is not okay for for a mod or joe schmoe to post a link to a website that a mod has perviously ruled verboten.

[Old Tex]

You posted a link after the ruling (which was later overturned). I'm sure you were fully aware of the COM you were acting out, but did anyway.

Yeah, well, you have your opinion and I have mine. So be it.

[Alaric]

It's a board/site with thousands of participants. The majority of whom are former Mormons...

Ipse Dixit.

Correction: "some of whom are former Mormons..." Some have never been Mormons.

[Alaric]

... But doesn't the lack of a choice, between being resurrected and not, deny the very free agency law to which we adhere and espouse? Or will it be another choice we will have to make when the time comes?


It was a choice, one that you made, othewise you wouldn't be here.
Everyone on Earth choose pre-mortally the resurrection offered by Christ, so they get it. The remaining choice is if they choose the exaltation, the join heirship, offered by Christ, to sit with him in his throne and partake fully of his divine nature.

[Old Tex]

I was just wondering why that particular web site was linked to inform someone of something that nobody asked for. So I was just wondering why it was posted if not to offend?

I was wondering why the ban on the posting of the genealogy site was "later overturned"? Must not have been much of an "offense" afterall.

[Fire Watch]

I was wondering why the ban on the posting of the genealogy site was "later overturned"? Must not have been much of an "offense" afterall.
It wasnt overturned. I didnt overturn my ruling, I decided to allow it with a disclaimer. There's a difference. No other Mods, despite back channeling through PM's and emails, "forced" me to change my mind or allow the link.

[scipio337]

I was wondering why the ban on the posting of the genealogy site was "later overturned"? Must not have been much of an "offense" afterall.I misspoke, it was "altered", not overturned. Just as most here have the courtesy to not repeatedly post LDS rituals or LDS handbooks, the mods ruled that if not part of an ongoing discussion, that site did violate the rules of respect.

[Fire Watch]

This thread needs to find a topic other than past ****ing contests or it's being shut down.

[CALady]

OK, sorry. I'm just confused. Perhaps you could PM me on what my offense was?

[Old Tex]

It wasnt overturned. I didnt overturn my ruling, I decided to allow it with a disclaimer. There's a difference. No other Mods, despite back channeling through PM's and emails, "forced" me to change my mind or allow the link.

I didn't say anything about why it was changed. I don't know. I was just going by what Scipio said. He knows more about what happened than I do.

[orbitaldecay]

Any LDS Artist here?

The Museum of Church History and Art has sponsored a worldwide art competition for members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints every three years since 1987. Each time, professional and amateur Latter-day Saint artists from many countries have answered the call to create new works of art on Gospel themes. Since the first competition in 1987, entries representing a worldwide range of cultural and aesthetic traditions, styles, and media have been submitted. Now, the Museum of Church History and Art extends an invitation to artists around the world to enter the Eighth International Art Competition.

http://www.lds.org/churchhistory/museum/competition/1,16118,4091-1-,00.html

Pretty exciting...

And through the link you can see previous artwork of previous competitions.

[Alaric]

Why was my post deleted? It was not directed at you FW - In fact your post did not exist when I pressed the reply button - it only ended up after yours because you posted while I was typing. Check the time stamp.

(edit typo)

[Fire Watch]

It was 1 of 12. Deal with it.

[Meriweather]

Yeah, well, you have your opinion and I have mine. So be it.

I'm feeling a little bored today, so to entertain myself, I'm going to post my thoughts for what they're worth (a haypenny--maybe).

What seems to have started the current exchange is that last night a new poster came in, and targeted, not a post, but a person who hadn't even been in this thread for over a week. SuperD seemed to suggest FireWatch's own faith was lacking in some way and that LDS might have answers. To make this more interesting, a first time poster is addressing someone who is also a moderator.

In essence FireWatch posts back, "I don't see my faith as lacking, but as you seem interested in discussing what might be lacking in people's faiths, let's first take a look at what people believe is lacking in yours." (Is anyone else thinking of the 'beam in your own eye' verse?)

Because FireWatch posted a link to a site that is hurtful to members of LDS, and because of the previous brouhaha over someone posting a link, it was taken to TTTM.

This brings me to the main point of my post. As a substitute teacher, I walk into classrooms on a daily basis and my very presence upsets the pecking order. Oh, the stories I could tell--but don't worry, I won't. I'm just saying I'm watching as FireWatch is moving through some very familiar territory to me. He suddenly has the responsibility for keeping order, and about the time he shoulders this responsibility, we are here in this very thread having (as seen by outsiders) the equivalent of a ripping good food fight. Or maybe it was a pillow fight with feathers flying and feathers being ruffled and all of that.

In any case, we were in such a state other moderators didn't even want to deal with it--we inmates were definitely in charge--and I, for one, hadn't even recognized Bedlam. (Having too much fun, I guess.)

Anyway, Lee locks us down, FireWatch comes in to restore order--and we as much say, "Isn't FireWatch one of us? Peck-peck-peck. Yes, he's very much one of us, but guess what, he is also now a moderator, and here on Hannity we back our moderators--not back-bite our moderators. It's going to be a little different, just as it is a little different when a new member joins and begins making his/her presence felt.

When one goes into a classroom, one cannot do what is best for herself, or best for the good students, or best for the behavioral problems. One must always do what one feels is best for the CLASS--even if that means individuals feel somewhat shunted aside at times. Also, no matter how hard one tries, the class is NOT going to progress identically to the way it ran before. Everyone (and I mean everyone) has to adjust.

An interesting phenomenon I observe as a substitute teacher is during long-term assignments, there is ALWAYS at least one student who feels justified in acts and words of hostility. I don't know why that is, but I long ago accepted it as fact. I don't even take it personally anymore, because there is another phenomenon that occurs: That student who was so hostile, when seeing me at a later date, ALWAYS makes a point of coming forward and telling me how much he/she missed me after I had gone--and how sorry they were for their behavior.

So, I'm just saying, FireWatch is here, he is doing the job he was assigned, and looked at through the eyes of someone who is always finding herself in a position of having to assume responsibility in an environment where everyone else already knows the ropes and each other, FireWatch is doing a more than credible job. Give him some support, and don't be the one who later will feel the need to apologize when, really, while appreciated, any apology is still a great deal too late.

[HokieCougarVandal]

It was a choice, one that you made, othewise you wouldn't be here.
Everyone on Earth choose pre-mortally the resurrection offered by Christ, so they get it. The remaining choice is if they choose the exaltation, the join heirship, offered by Christ, to sit with him in his throne and partake fully of his divine nature.
Point taken. After doing some researching, most of what I came across stated very similar to what you have ... that is the choice was made in the pre-existence. So salvation is free because of our choice made before the world was. Exaltation is still choices "in progress."

[Reeder]

Point taken. After doing some researching, most of what I came across stated very similar to what you have ... that is the choice was made in the pre-existence. So salvation is free because of our choice made before the world was. Exaltation is still choices "in progress."

Indeed.

2 Ne. 2: 4

.......for the Spirit is the same, yesterday, today, and forever. And the way is prepared from the fall of man, and salvation is free.

[Old Tex]

Indeed.

2 Ne. 2: 4

.......for the Spirit is the same, yesterday, today, and forever. And the way is prepared from the fall of man, and salvation is free.

I think that we cannot understand the value of having a body made of the "courser" elements such as the mortal body. Although it is subject to pain and death, it appears that those who gave up their first estate want one so badly that they try to occupy one when they can, even to the point of occupying those of swine as opposed to not being in one at all.

Indeed, resurrection is salvation. Salvation from the fallen mortal world, and at the proper time, salvation from the disenbodied spirit world. But because of the atonement, that's a "given" and is free to all. What our goal should be is exaltation in the Celestial Kingdom. In the end, this is really the only thing that Christ ever taught. Some were just not ready to accept it all.

[CALady]

I'm feeling a little bored today, so to entertain myself, I'm going to post my thoughts for what they're worth (a haypenny--maybe).

Maybe I missed something. But this is all I saw.

What seems to have started the current exchange is that last night a new poster came in, and targeted, not a post, but a person who hadn't even been in this thread for over a week.

New posters in threads often start with some older post. Sometimes they start reading at an earlier point and find something they want to respond to. Not realizing that the topic has moved on. I've been guilty of that myself. Although I try to minimize it.

SuperD seemed to suggest FireWatch's own faith was lacking in some way and that LDS might have answers. To make this more interesting, a first time poster is addressing someone who is also a moderator.

I'm not sure a first time poster would know who the mods are. Also, when I came in, I read SuperD's post as nothing more than her expressing her testimony. I didn't see any attack on anyone.

In essence FireWatch posts back, "I don't see my faith as lacking, but as you seem interested in discussing what might be lacking in people's faiths, let's first take a look at what people believe is lacking in yours." (Is anyone else thinking of the 'beam in your own eye' verse?)

I missed that entirely. All I saw was a link to an "ex-Mormon" site which didn't seem to fit since SuperD wasn't an ex-Mormon. Also, I was surprised why a site that has foul language in it would be linked at all. I've since learned that doing so is allowed.

Because FireWatch posted a link to a site that is hurtful to members of LDS, and because of the previous brouhaha over someone posting a link, it was taken to TTTM.

And I got a clarification and a ruling which I accepted.

This brings me to the main point of my post. As a substitute teacher, I walk into classrooms on a daily basis and my very presence upsets the pecking order. Oh, the stories I could tell--but don't worry, I won't. I'm just saying I'm watching as FireWatch is moving through some very familiar territory to me. He suddenly has the responsibility for keeping order, and about the time he shoulders this responsibility, we are here in this very thread having (as seen by outsiders) the equivalent of a ripping good food fight. Or maybe it was a pillow fight with feathers flying and feathers being ruffled and all of that.

I missed the fight. Was there a fight over the weekend?

In any case, we were in such a state other moderators didn't even want to deal with it--we inmates were definitely in charge--and I, for one, hadn't even recognized Bedlam. (Having too much fun, I guess.)

Again, I must have missed that. I didn't see any fight or posts over the weekend in this thread that seemed hostile.

Anyway, Lee locks us down, FireWatch comes in to restore order--and we as much say, "Isn't FireWatch one of us? Peck-peck-peck.

Lee locked this down?? When? Why? I missed that. Was that over the weekend?

Yes, he's very much one of us, but guess what, he is also now a moderator, and here on Hannity we back our moderators--not back-bite our moderators. It's going to be a little different, just as it is a little different when a new member joins and begins making his/her presence felt.

I didn't see anything today even directed at Firewatch after I got my clarification on his link. Although several posts were deleted, I'm still not sure why.

When one goes into a classroom,....

We're not children. Maybe that's the problem. We would just like to be treated as adults instead of "...because I said so..." as responses to honestly asked questions.

However, all of us accept the rulings of the Mods and always have.

[Alaric]

Point taken. After doing some researching, most of what I came across stated very similar to what you have ... that is the choice was made in the pre-existence. So salvation is free because of our choice made before the world was. Exaltation is still choices "in progress."

"Every knee shall bow and every tongue shall confess" has some deep implications when you consider that all men at least once accepted the plan of salvation wherein Christ is Savior, for all accecpted at least obtaining a body which would be resurrected - there will not be anyone who cannot acknowledge that He saved them from death.

[Alaric]

I think that we cannot understand the value of having a body made of the "courser" elements such as the mortal body.

I'm reminded of the word of J.F.S. "For the dead had looked upon the long absence of their spirits from their bodies as a bondage. "

[Old Tex]

I'm reminded of the word of J.F.S. "For the dead had looked upon the long absence of their spirits from their bodies as a bondage. "

I think you are right. Joseph Fielding Smith had a deep understanding of the gospel of Jesus Christ. I think I read everything he wrote, along with Brigham Young, and several others of his standing. Unfortunately, most of my books from the past were ruined in one of our hurricanes and eventially fell apart.

[SuperD]

sorry I didn't mean to start anything I was remember back a was that FW said he had been in several churches before his present one and commenting. Sorry if I caused trouble by that.

[Meriweather]

sorry I didn't mean to start anything I was remember back a was that FW said he had been in several churches before his present one and commenting. Sorry if I caused trouble by that.

Don't worry about it. I'm sure we've all unknowingly stepped into a few hornet's nests. You just learned that it is wise to quote, or at least reference, a statement so that everyone can be on the same page.

Welcome, by the way. We do have a lot of fun here. I'm one of the ones who is usually having so much fun I don't even realize there is trouble brewing. (Maybe it's like being in the eye of of a hurricane!)

[AugustGem]

Rayman,

Please allow me to use your post to make a point....

It makes one worder why links to positive sites about LDS can't be posted, but links to negative sites about LDS are OK to post?

I was banned a couple of weeks ago for posting a geneology link which was supposedly "offensive" to some here. Yet the same mod who banned me posts a link to a site which is "offensive" to some here also, yet I see no banning for that. Just sayin'.....

I didnt mean it because it was pro LDS, I have never had an opinion about LDS, I just know that posting other forums is frowned upon and I didn't want him to get in trouble. I didn't think it was an offensive site. I've seen people told not to do that was all. :redface:

[justamere10]

I didnt mean it because it was pro LDS, I have never had an opinion about LDS, I just know that posting other forums is frowned upon and I didn't want him to get in trouble. I didn't think it was an offensive site. I've seen people told not to do that was all. :redface:

I think you are mixing two issues August. The Fire Watch posts yesterday were about somethng entirely different, you did not cause it. Enjoy the day.

[RayMan]

I didnt mean it because it was pro LDS, I have never had an opinion about LDS, I just know that posting other forums is frowned upon and I didn't want him to get in trouble. I didn't think it was an offensive site. I've seen people told not to do that was all. :redface:

Right back at ya AugustGem. ;)

I didn't think you were doing anything disrespectful but you were quoting the same link and I didn't want you to get into any trouble over that.

God bless you,
ray

[CALady]

Don't worry about it. I'm sure we've all unknowingly stepped into a few hornet's nests. You just learned that it is wise to quote, or at least reference, a statement so that everyone can be on the same page.

Welcome, by the way. We do have a lot of fun here. I'm one of the ones who is usually having so much fun I don't even realize there is trouble brewing. (Maybe it's like being in the eye of of a hurricane!)

So, I think we can agree that SuperD's quote wasn't some sinister plot to attack a moderator. Good.

[Meriweather]

So, I think we can agree that SuperD's quote wasn't some sinister plot to attack a moderator. Good.

Peace. Out of no where a post is made, referencing nothing, suggesting that the faith of someone else is lacking. A response is made suggesting it is the faith of the first poster that might be lacking. In my opinion the post wasn't sinister in the first place, a shot across the bow, maybe, with a return shot fired.

SuperD is not the people I see as perhaps harboring some hostility toward a moderator. Further, there is honest hostility and there is sinister. Even IF there is hostility, I certainly do not see any of the sinister variety.

[Constantine the Great]

sorry I didn't mean to start anything I was remember back a was that FW said he had been in several churches before his present one and commenting. Sorry if I caused trouble by that.

You have a join date of June 2008. How far back is "back aways"?

I've been around since April 2006 and I don't recall any FW's posts referencing him bouncing from church to church. Not that it's impossible.

[Frazzled]

You have a join date of June 2008. How far back is "back aways"?

I've been around since April 2006 and I don't recall any FW's posts referencing him bouncing from church to church. Not that it's impossible.


I believe he was referencing this:

I was raised Roman Catholic. I certainly have no "ax" to grind with Catholics. Before becoming a Oneness Pentecostal, I was a member of the Assemblies of God..a trinitarian Pentecostal organization. I have no ax to grind with them either.

[RayMan]

You have a join date of June 2008. How far back is "back aways"?

I've been around since April 2006 and I don't recall any FW's posts referencing him bouncing from church to church. Not that it's impossible.


Hi CtG,
I believe what is being referenced is FW sharing (earlier in this thread I believe) his church background growing up. Jewish grandmother, himself brought up Catholic and then going Pentecostal as an adult. I think I have that reasonably correct. Wouldn't call it bouncing myself.

[RayMan]

I believe he was referencing this:


Thanks Fraz. I was too lazy to do a search. ;)

[Fire Watch]

This thread needs to find a topic other than past ****ing contests or it's being shut down.
.

[basilisk]

Here are a few questions for some of the Mormons here:

Why is it, when a Mormon knocks on your door, that they wear those funny ID badges?

Why do they wear white shirts and ties, even when it's 110 degrees outside?

What should I say when a pair of Mormons ask me if I'm interested in learning about Jesus Christ? Should I tell them that I'm actually, um, a Christian already?

When they ask me if I want to be baptized, what do I tell them if I was already baptized and don't think I need to be again?

[Reeder]

Here are a few questions for some of the Mormons here:

Why is it, when a Mormon knocks on your door, that they wear those funny ID badges?

Obedience


Why do they wear white shirts and ties, even when it's 110 degrees outside?

Obedience


What should I say when a pair of Mormons ask me if I'm interested in learning about Jesus Christ? Should I tell them that I'm actually, um, a Christian already?

Yes, common ground is a good thing in this case.


When they ask me if I want to be baptized, what do I tell them if I was already baptized and don't think I need to be again?

If its 110 degrees outside, why not take a dunk in a nice, cool font?

[Frazzled]

Here are a few questions for some of the Mormons here:

Why is it, when a Mormon knocks on your door, that they wear those funny ID badges?

Why do they wear white shirts and ties, even when it's 110 degrees outside?

What should I say when a pair of Mormons ask me if I'm interested in learning about Jesus Christ? Should I tell them that I'm actually, um, a Christian already?

When they ask me if I want to be baptized, what do I tell them if I was already baptized and don't think I need to be again?

1 - so they can tell each other apart.

2 - they wear white ties? :eek:

3 - just smile and offer them some lemonade - (after all it's 110 outside :) )

4 - Do they ask that on the first date?

;)

[Snagglepuss]

4 - Do they ask that on the first date?

;)
As a missionary? :eek:

;)

[basilisk]

1 - so they can tell each other apart.

2 - they wear white ties? :eek:

3 - just smile and offer them some lemonade - (after all it's 110 outside :) )

4 - Do they ask that on the first date?

;)
You'd be surprised at some of the goofy ties I'm seen them wear.

I actually had to harass the missionaries for weeks just to get them to baptize me. They didn't seem to want to baptize me for some reason. Maybe it was my polygamist parents... :think:

[Meriweather]

Was the denial of priesthood to the blacks prior to 1978 inspired?:)

God is patient. God is kind.

[CALady]

Was the denial of priesthood to the blacks prior to 1978 inspired?:)

God has his own timing because God knows the hearts of men. Sometimes the hearts of men require a softening, an opening, or a good kick in the rear. Too many Americans in the 19th Century and early 20th Century had some pretty ignorant views of their fellow man.

[noelle12]

Here are a few questions for some of the Mormons here:

Why is it, when a Mormon knocks on your door, that they wear those funny ID badges?

The missionary's name-tag has two important names on it: the name of the missionary, and the name of the Savior, Jesus Christ. For the missionary it is a constant reminder to always remember who they are representing, and for the investigator it is the only thing they can use to tell the two missionaries apart.

Why do they wear white shirts and ties, even when it's 110 degrees outside?

I was a sister missionary, so I rarely wore a white shirt, and never a tie. So I don't know. :whistle:

What should I say when a pair of Mormons ask me if I'm interested in learning about Jesus Christ? Should I tell them that I'm actually, um, a Christian already?

Absolutely. It is common ground. Many of the people I contacted as a missionary were Christians, and some wanted to learn about the LDS church, and others did not. They nearly always were very respectful and kind. (Just a very few exceptions, like the guy who tried to kill me with his bike, but he was drunk, and not thinking very clearly.)

My friend served her mission in Japan, where there are not so many Christians. She told me, and I hadn't really realized it, but many of them had no understanding of Jesus Christ at all, so they had to start the teaching process with learning about Him.

When they ask me if I want to be baptized, what do I tell them if I was already baptized and don't think I need to be again?

Ask the question. Any missionary worth his/her salt wants to share, but not force.

[hillplus]

Speaking of Japan and being without the concept of a Savior, a nice story for those who have not read it:

A few years ago, when Elder Merrill J. Bateman of the Presidency of the Seventy was in Japan, the missionaries introduced him to a young Japanese brother who had just joined the Church. He was from a non-Christian background. When he met the missionaries, he was interested in the message, but he could not understand or feel the need for a Savior, and he didn’t have a witness regarding the gospel. One day the missionaries decided to show him a film about the Atonement. The young man saw the film, but still he didn’t have a witness.

“The next morning he went to work. He worked in an optician’s shop making eyeglasses. … An elderly woman came in. He remembered her coming in a few weeks before. She had broken her glasses. She needed a new pair. When she had come in earlier, she didn’t have enough money and had gone away to save more in order to purchase the new glasses. As she came in that day, she again showed him her spectacles and showed him the money that she now had. He realized that she didn’t have enough yet. Then a thought came to him: I have some money. I don’t need to tell her. I can make up the difference. So he told her the money she had was adequate, took her glasses, [and] made an appointment for her to return when he had finished making the spectacles. …

“She returned later. He had the glasses ready for her. He handed them to her, and she put them on [and exclaimed] ‘… I see. I see.’ Then she began to cry. At that point, a burning sensation began to grow within his bosom and swelled within him. He said, ‘… I understand. I understand.’ He began to cry. Out the door he ran, looking for the missionaries. When he found them, he said, ‘I see! My eyes have been opened! I know that Jesus is the Son of God. I know the stone was rolled away from the tomb and on that glorious Easter morning He arose from the dead. He can make up the difference in my life when I fall short.’

[Old Tex]

Speaking of Japan and being without the concept of a Savior, a nice story for those who have not read it:

A few years ago, when Elder Merrill J. Bateman of the Presidency of the Seventy was in Japan, the missionaries introduced him to a young Japanese brother who had just joined the Church. He was from a non-Christian background. When he met the missionaries, he was interested in the message, but he could not understand or feel the need for a Savior, and he didn’t have a witness regarding the gospel. One day the missionaries decided to show him a film about the Atonement. The young man saw the film, but still he didn’t have a witness.

“The next morning he went to work. He worked in an optician’s shop making eyeglasses. … An elderly woman came in. He remembered her coming in a few weeks before. She had broken her glasses. She needed a new pair. When she had come in earlier, she didn’t have enough money and had gone away to save more in order to purchase the new glasses. As she came in that day, she again showed him her spectacles and showed him the money that she now had. He realized that she didn’t have enough yet. Then a thought came to him: I have some money. I don’t need to tell her. I can make up the difference. So he told her the money she had was adequate, took her glasses, [and] made an appointment for her to return when he had finished making the spectacles. …

“She returned later. He had the glasses ready for her. He handed them to her, and she put them on [and exclaimed] ‘… I see. I see.’ Then she began to cry. At that point, a burning sensation began to grow within his bosom and swelled within him. He said, ‘… I understand. I understand.’ He began to cry. Out the door he ran, looking for the missionaries. When he found them, he said, ‘I see! My eyes have been opened! I know that Jesus is the Son of God. I know the stone was rolled away from the tomb and on that glorious Easter morning He arose from the dead. He can make up the difference in my life when I fall short.’

Good point, hillplus. When we do our best to follow His commandments and endure to the end, we have the promise that He will cover any shortfall on our part.

[RayMan]

Speaking of Japan and being without the concept of a Savior, a nice story for those who have not read it:

A few years ago, when Elder Merrill J. Bateman of the Presidency of the Seventy was in Japan, the missionaries introduced him to a young Japanese brother who had just joined the Church. He was from a non-Christian background. When he met the missionaries, he was interested in the message, but he could not understand or feel the need for a Savior, and he didn’t have a witness regarding the gospel. One day the missionaries decided to show him a film about the Atonement. The young man saw the film, but still he didn’t have a witness.

“The next morning he went to work. He worked in an optician’s shop making eyeglasses. … An elderly woman came in. He remembered her coming in a few weeks before. She had broken her glasses. She needed a new pair. When she had come in earlier, she didn’t have enough money and had gone away to save more in order to purchase the new glasses. As she came in that day, she again showed him her spectacles and showed him the money that she now had. He realized that she didn’t have enough yet. Then a thought came to him: I have some money. I don’t need to tell her. I can make up the difference. So he told her the money she had was adequate, took her glasses, [and] made an appointment for her to return when he had finished making the spectacles. …

“She returned later. He had the glasses ready for her. He handed them to her, and she put them on [and exclaimed] ‘… I see. I see.’ Then she began to cry. At that point, a burning sensation began to grow within his bosom and swelled within him. He said, ‘… I understand. I understand.’ He began to cry. Out the door he ran, looking for the missionaries. When he found them, he said, ‘I see! My eyes have been opened! I know that Jesus is the Son of God. I know the stone was rolled away from the tomb and on that glorious Easter morning He arose from the dead. He can make up the difference in my life when I fall short.’

A very touching testimony of God's grace.

[Old Tex]

The missionary's name-tag has two important names on it: the name of the missionary, and the name of the Savior, Jesus Christ. For the missionary it is a constant reminder to always remember who they are representing, and for the investigator it is the only thing they can use to tell the two missionaries apart.

Especially when both of their first names are "Elder".:))

[Frazzled]

2 Timothy 2:13 states: "If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny [Gk, contradict] himself." The fact that God cannot contradict Himself is why I asked if denying blacks priesthood was inspired before 1978 or not. I refuse to believe in disjunctive or contradictory revelation as coming from an eternally consistent God.:)

Why would God be contradicting Himself if it just wasn't the right time for something to happen?

[Lord Dreadmore]

who came first, god, or the man who became god and created man who became god?

[Frazzled]

It boils down to something being seen as inspired before 1978 and after 1978. This associates God with contradiction. Two opposites cannot be true. Besides, if blacks were the same as whites in the New Testament, all are said to be the same by Paul there, then, they're not being the same and becoming the same is contradictory. There's also the issue of Joseph Smith allowing the ordaining of a black man Elijah Abel to the priesthood, then, blacks are denied priesthood until 1978. God says He doesn't contradict Himself like that. Period. No offense, it's just how I see it.

The Lord doesn't contradict Himself. Just because He doesn't explain Himself, doesn't necessarily mean that there is a contradiction.

[Meriweather]

2 Timothy 2:13 states: "If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny [Gk, contradict] himself." The fact that God cannot contradict Himself is why I asked if denying blacks priesthood was inspired before 1978 or not. I refuse to believe in disjunctive or contradictory revelation as coming from an eternally consistent God.:)

This has nothing to do with God contradicting Himself, but patiently waiting for His children to learn His ways.

[Meriweather]

You're as free to accept disjunctive or contradictory revelation as I'm free to reject it. To each their own, huh? Here's what Brigham said about blacks and the priesthood: "That curse will remain upon them, and they never can hold the Priesthood or share in it until all the other descendants of Adam have received the promises and enjoyed the blessings of the Priesthood and the keys thereof. Until the last ones of the residue of Adam's children are brought up to that favourable position, the children of Cain cannot receive the first ordinances of the Priesthood. They were the first that were cursed, and they will be the last from whom the curse will be removed (Journal of Discourses, vol. 7, p. 290)." They were given the priesthood before "all the other descendants of Adam have received the promises." Now, that's disjunctive.

Wouldn't you say that was Brigham's belief centered upon the beliefs and knowledge of his day? Is Brigham allowed human error, to grow in understanding?

As I said in my first post to you, God is patient, God is kind. He waits for us to get it right, and He forgives us.

But I digress. It's been thirty years since LDS changed their policy about blacks and the priesthood. You bring this up now because you wish to . . . .?

[Frazzled]

Here's what Brigham said about blacks and the priesthood: "That curse will remain upon them, and they never can hold the Priesthood or share in it until all the other descendants of Adam have received the promises and enjoyed the blessings of the Priesthood and the keys thereof. Until the last ones of the residue of Adam's children are brought up to that favourable position, the children of Cain cannot receive the first ordinances of the Priesthood. They were the first that were cursed, and they will be the last from whom the curse will be removed (Journal of Discourses, vol. 7, p. 290)." They were given the priesthood before "all the other descendants of Adam have received the promises." Now, that's disjunctive. You're as free to accept disjunctive or contradictory revelation as I'm free to reject it. To each their own, huh?

So was this a question, or just the building of a platform so that you could make your grand pronouncement?

[Alaric]

Was the denial of priesthood to the blacks prior to 1978 inspired?:)

This is my personal opinion.

I don't think that the denial of the priesthood was inspired. I do think that the extension of the priesthood to all men was inspired.

There are documented instances where Joseph Smith ordained black men to the priesthood. This was when the US still practiced slavery - Smith was a vocal abolitionist (which got him into trouble in Missouri). Some of the notable ordained men are Elijah Abel, who was ordained a seventy (a high office in the priesthood), Enoch Abel, Elijah's son, Walker Lewis, an Elder who was a founder of the American Abolitionist Society, Green Flake, who led one of the advance parties into the Salt Lake Valley ahead of Brigham Young, William McCarry, and Joe Ball, who was Presiding Elder of the church in Boston. There were others, but these are the ones who played notable parts in early LDS history. McCarry broke ranks with the church and recruited a group of followers to follow him and some historians have suggested that he may have fomented racial tensions when he sought an ugly confrontation with church leadership - For better or worse, McCarry became another of the notable figures in the US religious history of the Great Plains.

Many people in the USA in the 1840s, perhaps even a majority, believed that the black man was inferior and we still have people around who are not over it. Its wrong, but that's how it was and I don't see any need to apologize for history because it is what it is and its best to look history straight in the face. Early converts to the church had their own prejudices, and the church found some rapid initial growth in states that were slave states. Some time after the McCarry incident the priesthood ban was put in place in 1848 - though those who had been ordained kept their priesthood. Similar attitudes were manifest in Protestantism by virtue of segregation of the congregations and even separate seminaries for ministers to obtain their credentials.

The LDS church has a lay priesthood and does not segregate its congregations. It never has. Again, this is only my opinion, but I don't think that public attitudes both in and out of the church would have let the church undo the ban before the civil rights era. Imagine the public uproar if in 1920 a black man were given the priesthood and a position of authority in an unsegregated congregation. Critics of the church would have accused "them dayum Marminz of making white girls confess their lurid sins to a black Bishop" and within the church attitudes wouldn't have been much better either. I'm not saying it was right or wrong, I didn’t live then, just saying that is what I think it was.

Men are vagarious creatures and sometimes God leaves them to their weaknesses until they ask him, which is what happened. A few LDS church presidents brought up the topic of removing the ban, but in the church nothing is done without the unanimous consensus of the First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve. Church President David O McKay felt it was time and pressed for it but didn't get a consensus. At the time segregation was still the norm and the civil rights movement was in its infancy. Spencer W. Kimball was inspired to again press for it, and this time after much prayer on the part of the First Presidency and the Twelve everyone was in agreement. Bruce R. McConkie of the Twelve at that time had made past statements that the ban would never be lifted and had preached about the mark of cain, the pre-mortal valiancy of the black man, etc. Afterwards he said that whatever he said on the subject was wrong, that God had revealed to him that he was wrong and had given him correct knowledge on the subject. That was thirty years ago this week. The mark of Cain doctrine and statements about pre-mortal valiancy have been refuted.

Even though I have referenced historical events and known facts, this is only my opinion. I am well aware that in formulating an opinion facts can be tendiciously assembled and arranged, but from many conversations I’m inclined to think that there are quite a few Mormons who think similarly, but there are also many others who have a different opinion.

[RayMan]

So was this a question, or just the building of a platform so that you could make your grand pronouncement?

Cue Emperor's Death March....now.

As long as we are about it let's talk about racism amongt Baptists, Catholics and Pentecostals a hundred years ago... Sheesh.

[Meriweather]

Cue Emperor's Death March....now.

As long as we are about it let's talk about racism amongt Baptists, Catholics and Pentecostals a hundred years ago... Sheesh.


You may be on to something. Didn't Fire Watch tell us to start a new contest? Should it be who was the most racist or who was the least racist?

[Alaric]

Here's what Brigham said about blacks and the priesthood: "That curse will remain upon them, and they never can hold the Priesthood or share in it until all the other descendants of Adam have received the promises and enjoyed the blessings of the Priesthood and the keys thereof. Until the last ones of the residue of Adam's children are brought up to that favourable position, the children of Cain cannot receive the first ordinances of the Priesthood. They were the first that were cursed, and they will be the last from whom the curse will be removed (Journal of Discourses, vol. 7, p. 290)." They were given the priesthood before "all the other descendants of Adam have received the promises." Now, that's disjunctive. You're as free to accept disjunctive or contradictory revelation as I'm free to reject it. To each their own, huh?

Yep. Brigham Young said that. And the Church has said that is wrong. So what of it? Will you grant us the right to define what we believe? Or are do you wish to usurp that for yourself?

Tell me your religion I'll bet that I can find something someone said that was wrong.

[RayMan]

Tell me your religion I'll bet that I can find something someone said that was wrong.


No! That's shocking!

You mean, people are people? :cool:

[Frazzled]

No! That's shocking!

You mean, people are people? :cool:

...unless they're sheeple.....:cool:

[RayMan]

...unless they're sheeple.....:cool:

Reminds me. I get the definite feeling you ain't a sheeple. I admire that. ;)

[Frazzled]

Reminds me. I get the definite feeling you ain't a sheeple. I admire that. ;)

Awwh :hug:


......thanks, Ray & back at ya!

[noelle12]

...unless they're sheeple.....:cool:

As the official spokesman for sheeple everywhere, I'd like to say that sheeple are people too. :razz:

[Alaric]

Is that She-ple, or Sheep-le? ;)

[RayMan]

Is that She-ple, or Sheep-le? ;)

Picky, picky, picky...

[noelle12]

Is that She-ple, or Sheep-le? ;)

or sheople?

[Frazzled]

Is that She-ple, or Sheep-le? ;)

:think: I think I'm offended by the notion of she-ple ..........


.....but I'm sure that you in no way meant that as an implication that members of the female population are compliant and easily lead.............right? ;)

[HokieCougarVandal]

As the official spokesman for sheeple everywhere, I'd like to say that sheeple are people too. :razz:

New Wierd Al parody (off of Depeche Mode) ... Sheeple are sheeple
:mrgreen:

Anyone want to venture the lyrics?

[RayMan]

New Wierd Al parody (off of Depeche Mode) ... Sheeple are sheeple
:mrgreen:

Anyone want to venture the lyrics?

No, but I am reminded of Goat-Boy from SNL. "Who remembers the Eighties? I-I-I -do...."

[Alaric]

:think: I think I'm offended by the notion of she-ple ..........


.....but I'm sure that you in no way meant that as an implication that members of the female population are compliant and easily lead.............right? ;)

Let me disabuse you of that notion with an introduction to my wife. She's a strong-willed beautiful well idgumakated woman who is a leader.

[RayMan]

Let me disabuse you of that notion with an introduction to my wife. She's a strong-willed beautiful well idgumakated woman who is a leader.

You only say that because she slapped you upside the head after reading Fraz's post. :mrgreen:

[Alaric]

You only say that because she slapped you upside the head after reading Fraz's post. :mrgreen:

She stole my keyboard...

But I agree with all of it though. Tomorrow is her b-day. Fourty-one and still turning heads. The other day she was at the grocery store and didn't have her wedding band on. She got asked out.

[RayMan]

She stole my keyboard...

But I agree with all of it though. Tomorrow is her b-day. Fourty-one and still turning heads. The other day she was at the grocery store and didn't have her wedding band on. She got asked out.

Now that's the kind of wife to be married to. Assuming she told the guy no...:mrgreen:

[Meriweather]

She stole my keyboard...

But I agree with all of it though. Tomorrow is her b-day. Fourty-one and still turning heads. The other day she was at the grocery store and didn't have her wedding band on. She got asked out.

Wish her many happy returns from all of us, and I hope both of you have a happy day.

[Old Tex]

It boils down to something being seen as inspired before 1978 and after 1978. This associates God with contradiction. Two opposites cannot be true. Besides, if blacks were the same as whites in the New Testament, all are said to be the same by Paul there, then, they're not being the same and becoming the same is contradictory. There's also the issue of Joseph Smith allowing the ordaining of a black man Elijah Abel to the priesthood, then, blacks are denied priesthood until 1978. God says He doesn't contradict Himself like that. Period. No offense, it's just how I see it.

So what is your point, jade? That was thirty years ago. Why are you complaining to us? What do you want anybody on the forum to do about it? Are you also unhappy that Christ gave His apostles instructions that the Jews only was to receive the gospel until He later instructed that the gentiles could receive it. Was that a contradiction?

Edited to add: Here's a link to what blacks in the LDS Church think about it. They are the voices that count.
http://deseretnews.com:80/article/1,5143,700233139,00.html

[CALady]

So what's the topic for today?

Why does Jade think that the only people in the entire world who were racists were some early Mormons? Does he not know his history?

[Snagglepuss]

So what's the topic for today?I nominate 'Rhubarb' as the topic.....I've been craving a nice slice of strawberry/rhubarb pie lately. :mrgreen:

[Frazzled]

So, who exactly was the person that tasted a piece of raw rhubarb and thought, "sure, if I just cook this up with lots of sugar, it'll taste fine...."?

[Snagglepuss]

So, who exactly was the person that tasted a piece of raw rhubarb and thought, "sure, if I just cook this up with lots of sugar, it'll taste fine...."?I don't know, but I am grateful for their perserverance. :)

Now the real question is, who ate spinach, under any conditions, and thought 'Hmmm....yep, I think this is fit for human consumption."?

[CALady]

So, who exactly was the person that tasted a piece of raw rhubarb and thought, "sure, if I just cook this up with lots of sugar, it'll taste fine...."?

:))

It's awful stuff.

[RayMan]

I nominate 'Rhubarb' as the topic.....I've been craving a nice slice of strawberry/rhubarb pie lately. :mrgreen:

Hey Snaggs, how prophetic of you. I am sure we will be having rhubarb today. ;)

Rhubarb
1. Any of several plants of the genus Rheum, especially R. rhabarbarum, having long green or reddish acidic leafstalks that are edible when sweetened and cooked. Also called pie plant.

2. The dried, bitter-tasting rhizome and roots of Rheum palmatum or R. officinale of eastern Asia, used as a laxative.

3. Informal. A quarrel, fight, or heated discussion.

http://www.answers.com/topic/rhubarb

[Snagglepuss]

Hey Snaggs, how prophetic of you. I am sure we will be having rhubarb today. ;)
Going by the underlined portion of your quote, I'm not sure if you're capable of that kind of 'rhubarb'. ;)

[CALady]

Hey Snaggs, how prophetic of you. I am sure we will be having rhubarb today. ;)

Hey, I used to love Rhubarb, then I saw the light. Or tasted it... :rolleyes:

[RayMan]

Going by the underlined portion of your quote, I'm not sure if you're capable of that kind of 'rhubarb'. ;)

My wife and kids will testify to my "rhubarbish" tendencies. Not so much the past couple of years though, thank God!

[RayMan]

Hey, I used to love Rhubarb, then I saw the light. Or tasted it... :rolleyes:


I don't think there's enough Splenda in California to make a rhubarb pie I would actually enjoy eating.

[Snagglepuss]

Of course, I could also go for a slice of Lemon Meringue too, if that fits others palates more.

A nice Chocolate Silk would be excellent as well...... :drool:

[RayMan]

Homemade Coconut Cream from's Nation's. Now that's a piece of pie.

CA, you capisce Nation's? Best hamburgers and pies in the Bay Area.

[Meriweather]

So, who exactly was the person that tasted a piece of raw rhubarb and thought, "sure, if I just cook this up with lots of sugar, it'll taste fine...."?


Now be fair. Look at a stalk of celery and then look at a stalk of rhubarb. The rhubarb definitely looks good enough to eat. I like it cooked with a minimal of sugar, though.

[Meriweather]

Homemade Coconut Cream from's Nation's. Now that's a piece of pie.

CA, you capisce Nation's? Best hamburgers and pies in the Bay Area.

Nope, go south for your pies. Bourbon Pecan, Buttermilk Pecan, Apricot-Walnut, to name three of my favorites. I got all these recipes while I was living in Texas.

[CALady]

Homemade Coconut Cream from's Nation's. Now that's a piece of pie.

CA, you capisce Nation's? Best hamburgers and pies in the Bay Area.

Nations? Yes, I have to keep my husband from automatically turning into the parking lot when he sees one. I lived on them in college.

[RayMan]

Nations? Yes, I have to keep my husband from automatically turning into the parking lot when he sees one. I lived on them in college.


When I was little I can remember going to the original one in San Pablo. It was a whole in the wall perched on a traffic triangle where S.P. Dam Rd and San Pablo Ave meet. It would only seat about six people at the counter.

When they enlarged back about 20 years ago they kept the old diner as a separate room so you can still order and eat back there if you want. Cheeseburger with grilled onions, fries and strawberry shake from Nation's will put me into a food coma for hours.

And they even serve a Garden Burger that my vegetarian kids like!

[Jabber]

Homemade Coconut Cream from's Nation's. Now that's a piece of pie.

CA, you capisce Nation's? Best hamburgers and pies in the Bay Area.

RayMan, I'll meet you at Nation's for lunch....I'll buy the pie. BTW, my grandma made the best Rhubarb/Strawberry pie, so sweety but still tangy...M-m-m-m-m-m-m

[Snagglepuss]

For burgers, I'm a big fan of the Crown Burgers franchise along the Wasatch Front. Particularly their Pastrami burger! MMMmmmMMmmmmMmmmmm!

[RayMan]

RayMan, I'll meet you at Nation's for lunch....I'll buy the pie. BTW, my grandma made the best Rhubarb/Strawberry pie, so sweety but still tangy...M-m-m-m-m-m-m

We're on.

In my younger days I would eat my meal and then order half of a Coconut Cream pie to take home to "the family."

I was living alone at the time.;)

[Jabber]

We're on.

In my younger days I would eat my meal and then order half of a Coconut Cream pie to take home to "the family."

I was living alone at the time.;)At one time....me too. But if I tried now I'd buy stock in Peptobismol first....

[RayMan]

At one time....me too. But if I tried now I'd buy stock in Peptobismol first....

Gas-X Thin Strips have become my new best friend.

[Bigcanuck]

wife made rhubarb, strawberry crumble last night with pure cream on top. Man that was good.

[basilisk]

Have any Mormons here actually ever had lime green jello with shredded carrots at an official church activity? Just curious. The only time I've ever had it was at an activity with the polygamists.

[Snagglepuss]

Have any Mormons here actually ever had lime green jello with shredded carrots at an official church activity? Just curious. The only time I've ever had it was at an activity with the polygamists.I avoid green jello like the plague, and anyone that would put carrots into any jello is clearly apostate. ;)

[RayMan]

Have any Mormons here actually ever had lime green jello with shredded carrots at an official church activity? Just curious. The only time I've ever had it was at an activity with the polygamists.

Wow! So that means that Southern Baptists are polygamists, 'cuz when I was S.B. back in my teens we always had green jello with shredded carrots. That and the pink stuff.

[Old Tex]

So, who exactly was the person that tasted a piece of raw rhubarb and thought, "sure, if I just cook this up with lots of sugar, it'll taste fine...."?

It's better than eating crow without any sugar.:mrgreen:

[bluebird]

Have any Mormons here actually ever had lime green jello with shredded carrots at an official church activity? Just curious. The only time I've ever had it was at an activity with the polygamists.

I don't know that I had it at a church activity, but my mom used to make jello with carrots in it all the time when I was little. She doesn't do that anymore. Personally, I didn't mind. I thought it was pretty good.

[hillplus]

Have any Mormons here actually ever had lime green jello with shredded carrots at an official church activity? Just curious. The only time I've ever had it was at an activity with the polygamists.


gross,and more gross!

[Reeder]

gross,and more gross!

+ infinity X 10

[Gaby77]

Have any Mormons here actually ever had lime green jello with shredded carrots at an official church activity? Just curious. The only time I've ever had it was at an activity with the polygamists.

Actually, my personal experience is that the entire jello thing is more a Utah, than a Mormon thing.

[Reeder]

Isaiah 11:10 states: "And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious." Plainly, God had intended Gentiles to become Christians all along.

Agreed.


Okay, the Mormons intended the Negro to get the priesthood AFTER all of Adam's descendants have received it not before as the earlier quote I cited shows (see Journal of Discourses, vol. 7, p. 290) but, all of Adam's descendants hadn't received it before the Negro was given the priesthood.

Get over it. The JoD is not doctrine. "The Mormons" did not intend "the Negro" to get the priesthood AFTER all of Adam's descendants had received it. I'm a Mormon, and I never intended that. And besides that, it is God's will that is done, not mine, and not any other "Mormon's."


Besides, if whites and blacks were alike to God during the New Testament era, then, the denial of priesthood to blacks would be a denial of that alikeness.

Then please, by all means explain to me why so many white "Christians" denied blacks from even entering into their churches. Why did so many white "Christians" make the blacks sit in the backs of buses, and pick up their food at the back door of restaurants? Please explain to me why so many white "Christians" had black slaves? If "whites and blacks were alike to God during the New Testament era," then what on earth happened to "God's people?"


Lastly, saying God treats blacks like whites in the New Testament, Joseph allowed them to be ordained in the original movement, and that God all of a sudden without precedent (the highly questionable book of Abraham that scholars call "nonsense from beginning to end" being the source for that denial) makes no sense and denies God's eternal consistency.

Scholars? Hmmmm, I wonder how many "scholars" call the Bible "nonsense from beginning to end?" Now where was that mote?


God intended to let Gentiles have the gospel during New Testament times all along but,
the Mormon's approach to such amounts to suddenly kicking the Gentiles out and reinstating them later and that's wrong and makes God unreliable and untrustworthy. That's my objection.:)

Huh? The Mormons "kicked the Gentiles out?" Pretty amazing Church considering 300,000 converts join each year and neither blacks, nor gentiles were allowed to join. Who, may I ask, was joining the church if "gentiles were kicked out?"

[Reeder]

I'm glad you agree with my Isaiah verse. Protestants did deny at one time fellowship and ordinations to blacks but, I fail to see how I'm accountable for that nonsense.

Pot......Kettle......:think:


Where the "kicked the Gentiles out" is concerned, it was a metaphor to get the point across only and I in no way intended to say the Mormons actually did that. Obviously, my raising the issue is angering so, I'll stop posting to this particular thread on this topic.:)

Its frustrating that so many people attempt to discredit the LDS Church by using old quotes from the JoD, which is NOT considered official "doctrine." Thank you for discontinuing your participation on this particular topic.

[Christian Voter]

the Mormons intended the Negro to get the priesthood AFTER all of Adam's descendants have received it
This is a little naive, since scripture (I'm not sure where) says that few of the world's people will believe. Clearly, all of the world's non-white (and can we assume non-muslim too?) people could not be priesthood holders.
Another point: all of Adam's descendants includes blacks.

[Christian Voter]

Personally, I don't object to honest questions, it's only the questions that have no purpose in discussion, only to argue and disagree; those serve no purpose.
I like the verse in Isaiah, referring to the latter days - now.
God intended to let Gentiles have the gospel during New Testament times all along but, the Mormon's approach to such amounts to suddenly kicking the Gentiles out and reinstating them later and that's wrong and makes God unreliable and untrustworthy. I don't understand what you're saying here. The gentiles are the people that we (LDS) are trying to reach with the message of the Gospel.
I just think that any discussion of blacks having the priesthood have no honest purpose, because it is in the past. It has no place in a question about the doctrine, today.

[jasan22]

Actually, my personal experience is that the entire jello thing is more a Utah, than a Mormon thing.

It was at every potluck dinner I went to growing up, in Idaho. I tease my kids about making it and making them eat it. :sick:

[CALady]

Point taken. Additional apologies are extended if such are needed or wanted.:)

No apology necessary. We just wondered why you brought it up is all as we're not sure what it has to do with anything.

[CALady]

Actually, my personal experience is that the entire jello thing is more a Utah, than a Mormon thing.

I think it's more a 1950's thing. I've noticed that Utah is usually a few decades behind on some fashions. At least, in smaller towns, not SLC.

But that's just my personal experience.

[Christian Voter]

What I am trying to say to jade is, you're new here, and I want you to feel welcome, and not tell you what to say or not to say. We all appreciate consideration and courtesy. I think you are trying to do that.

[Old Tex]

Isaiah 11:10 states: "And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious." Plainly, God had intended Gentiles to become Christians all along. Okay, the Mormons intended the Negro to get the priesthood AFTER all of Adam's descendants have received it not before as the earlier quote I cited shows (see Journal of Discourses, vol. 7, p. 290) but, all of Adam's descendants hadn't received it before the Negro was given the priesthood. Besides, if whites and blacks were alike to God during the New Testament era, then, the denial of priesthood to blacks would be a denial of that alikeness. Lastly, saying God treats blacks like whites in the New Testament, Joseph allowed them to be ordained in the original Mormon movement, and that God all of a sudden without precedent (the highly questionable book of Abraham that scholars call "nonsense from beginning to end" being the source for that denial) makes no sense and denies God's eternal consistency. God intended to let Gentiles have the gospel during New Testament times all along but, the Mormon's approach to such amounts to suddenly kicking the Gentiles out and reinstating them later and that's wrong and makes God unreliable and untrustworthy. That's my objection.:)

Your objection is noted and recorded. Got any more gripes about Mormons? Are you a member of some religious group? I think that I asked you that before, but I don't recall your responding. If so, do they all feel the same way that you do about the LDS Church?

Did you know that membership into the LDS Church has been open to anyone since it's begining, even while other churches were segregated, right up until a few years ago? What do you make of that?

Do you believe that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints holds the Priesthood of God as they claim, or do you think it is a fraudulent claim? If you think that it is fraudulent, then why are you so keen on the blacks being ordained to it. It seems to me that if your concern was really about the welfare of the blacks, instead of about your own feelings about the LDS Church, that you would be in favor of them not being defrauded.

[Fire Watch]

I'm glad you agree with my Isaiah verse. Protestants did deny at one time fellowship and ordinations to blacks but, I fail to see how I'm accountable for that nonsense.
Then how in the heck do you have the nerve to try and hold the LDS to standards that you arent willing to meet?

[RayMan]

Then how in the heck do you have the nerve to try and hold the LDS to standards that you arent willing to meet?

I was wondering that myself. I am looking forward to jade's answer.

[noelle12]

I was at girls camp all day yesterday, so I missed the whole rhubarb conversation/debate, so I hope I'm not too late to add my .02. My first exposure to rhubarb was when a neighbor lady made my family a apple/rhubarb pie. It was really good. I wouldn't care for a rhubarb pie on its own, though. I like a little added tanginess, but not exclusive tanginess.

[hillplus]

I was at girls camp all day yesterday, so I missed the whole rhubarb conversation/debate, so I hope I'm not too late to add my .02. My first exposure to rhubarb was when a neighbor lady made my family a apple/rhubarb pie. It was really good. I wouldn't care for a rhubarb pie on its own, though. I like a little added tanginess, but not exclusive tanginess.

Then you just add vanilla ice cream! ;)

[basilisk]

I was at girls camp all day yesterday, so I missed the whole rhubarb conversation/debate, so I hope I'm not too late to add my .02. My first exposure to rhubarb was when a neighbor lady made my family a apple/rhubarb pie. It was really good. I wouldn't care for a rhubarb pie on its own, though. I like a little added tanginess, but not exclusive tanginess.
I see we've gotten off topic from the green jello subject. :wall:

[Meriweather]

I see we've gotten off topic from the green jello subject. :wall:


Sorry. I'll make amends. Anyone ever put red rhubarb into green jello?

[CALady]

Sorry. I'll make amends. Anyone ever put red rhubarb into green jello?

OK, now you've done it..

:sick:

[Meriweather]

OK, now you've done it..

:sick:


Ooops, sorry. I just happen to like green jello (no carrots, please), and I like rhubarb. I've never combined the two, before. . . .but if I become curious enough. . . .well, let's just say it's not out of the question. :mrgreen:

[noelle12]

Then you just add vanilla ice cream! ;)

ooh, that does have a certain appeal. I too am a big fan of ice cream. Hopefully I am not such a fan that I become too big of a fan.

We had a (failed) triple crown party last Saturday, and one of my friends made homemade root beer. Smelled great, tasted great, too bad no triple crown. We finished off the root beer by making root beer floats.

[Old Tex]

ooh, that does have a certain appeal. I too am a big fan of ice cream. Hopefully I am not such a fan that I become too big of a fan.

We had a (failed) triple crown party last Saturday, and one of my friends made homemade root beer. Smelled great, tasted great, too bad no triple crown. We finished off the root beer by making root beer floats.

Several years ago I went to the Young Women's Summer Camp to take care of some kind of maintainence on something. I don't remember what, but I remember that one of my grand daughters (who was attending camp that year) had to meet me at the edge of the area they had set up and she would have to shout something like "Male in the camp", and when I left she would shout, "Male leaving the camp".

This so tickled her that when the camp was over and she came home (she was living with us) she would continue to announce my movements in the house. She was a little pest. Now she is 23 years old and will be getting married in September. They grow up so fast. Take the time to enjoy your little one as she grows.

[noelle12]

Several years ago I went to the Young Women's Summer Camp to take care of some kind of maintainence on something. I don't remember what, but I remember that one of my grand daughters (who was attending camp that year) had to meet me at the edge of the area they had set up and she would have to shout something like "Male in the camp", and when I left she would shout, "Male leaving the camp".

This so tickled her that when the camp was over and she came home (she was living with us) she would continue to announce my movements in the house. She was a little pest. Now she is 23 years old and will be getting married in September. They grow up so fast. Take the time to enjoy your little one as she grows.

This was my first girls camp since I participated as a young woman. I was recently called as 2nd counselor in the young women's program. I couldn't go for the whole week this time, though it would have been fun. The only thing I really accomplished there yesterday was teaching the girls how to build a fire. They realized that lighting napkins and paper towels on fire does not then ignite a log. What a shock! So I taught them the right way to do it, then threatened them if any more paper towels were used to start a campfire I would make them do push ups when they got back.

I really liked girls camp back in the day, and I had a lot of fun hanging out with the girls yesterday.

[mrcuff]

Isaiah 11:10 states: "And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious." Plainly, God had intended Gentiles to become Christians all along. Okay, the Mormons intended the Negro to get the priesthood AFTER all of Adam's descendants have received it not before as the earlier quote I cited shows (see Journal of Discourses, vol. 7, p. 290) but, all of Adam's descendants hadn't received it before the Negro was given the priesthood. Besides, if whites and blacks were alike to God during the New Testament era, then, the denial of priesthood to blacks would be a denial of that alikeness. Lastly, saying God treats blacks like whites in the New Testament, Joseph allowed them to be ordained in the original Mormon movement, and that God all of a sudden without precedent (the highly questionable book of Abraham that scholars call "nonsense from beginning to end" being the source for that denial) makes no sense and denies God's eternal consistency. God intended to let Gentiles have the gospel during New Testament times all along but, the Mormon's approach to such amounts to suddenly kicking the Gentiles out and reinstating them later and that's wrong and makes God unreliable and untrustworthy. That's my objection.:)

The beauty of our Church is found in our belief in modern revelation. As others have stated, the JD is not considred canonical by the LDS. However, the revelation extending the Priesthood to all worthy males is scripture. There is a great deal that has not been revealed to us, and many LDS authorities have speculated about things that have not been explicitly revealed. It might have been better not to have done so. (It just adds fuel to the anti-LDS fire). But who am I to second-guess someone who obviously knows more than I?

[SuperD]

I nominate 'Rhubarb' as the topic.....I've been craving a nice slice of strawberry/rhubarb pie lately. :mrgreen:

rhubarb crunch is the best! Especially with rasberries.

[Meriweather]

rhubarb crunch is the best! Especially with rasberries.

Another wonderfully tart fruit: Gooseberries!

[noelle12]

rhubarb crunch is the best! Especially with rasberries.

how do you make rhubarb crunch? Sounds enticing.

[noelle12]

Another wonderfully tart fruit: Gooseberries!

I've never had gooseberries before. I'm not sure if I have ever even seen them in real life.

[Old Tex]

I've never had gooseberries before. I'm not sure if I have ever even seen them in real life.


That's those little white things that roll around the yard honking and hissing all day. Good Night! :))

[basilisk]

That's those little white things that roll around the yard honking and hissing all day. Good Night! :))
Gooseberries are actually what they leave behind. Kind of like dingleberries.

[Snagglepuss]

Hmmmm....we've gone from rhubarb to green jello to dingleberries. Logical progression of thought, I suppose.....

[Reeder]

Hmmmm....we've gone from rhubarb to green jello to dingleberries. Logical progression of thought, I suppose.....

Dingleberries???? :)) :)) :)) Tell me it aint so!! :))

[Meriweather]

Dingleberries???? :)) :)) :)) Tell me it aint so!! :))

Is everyone having a crappy morning today?

[Reeder]

Is everyone having a crappy morning today?

:))

[RayMan]

Is everyone having a crappy morning today?



Pretty much. All the servers for the S.F. office I am network admin at in S.F. are located in Cedar Rapids. They are dry because they are o the 4th floor but the water in the streets there is 5 feet deep and there is no power so everyone here in S.F. has the day off but me because I am working with some of our Linux guys in Boston to try and get some things going here locally so people can come back to work on Monday and actually be able to do something besides surf the internet.

Got a webex setup for the Boston guy. I can hear his key clicks over the phone while I walk the commands appear in the Linxus terminal box hooked up to my monitor. How exciting!!!

[Reeder]

Pretty much. All the servers for the S.F. office I am network admin at in S.F. are located in Cedar Rapids. They are dry because they are o the 4th floor but the water in the streets there is 5 feet deep and there is no power so everyone here in S.F. has the day off but me because I am working with some of our Linux guys in Boston to try and get some things going here locally so people can come back to work on Monday and actually be able to do something besides surf the internet.

Got a webex setup for the Boston guy. I can hear his key clicks over the phone while I walk the commands appear in the Linxus terminal box hooked up to my monitor. How exciting!!!

I think you just broke your own "run-on-sentence" record, RayMan.

[CALady]

Pretty much. All the servers for the S.F. office I am network admin at in S.F. are located in Cedar Rapids. They are dry because they are o the 4th floor but the water in the streets there is 5 feet deep and there is no power so everyone here in S.F. has the day off but me because I am working with some of our Linux guys in Boston to try and get some things going here locally so people can come back to work on Monday and actually be able to do something besides surf the internet.

Got a webex setup for the Boston guy. I can hear his key clicks over the phone while I walk the commands appear in the Linxus terminal box hooked up to my monitor. How exciting!!!

I'd love to get back to SF. Are you guys hiring? :))

[Frazzled]

I think you just broke your own "run-on-sentence" record, RayMan.

...he's excited! :)

[RayMan]

I think you just broke your own "run-on-sentence" record, RayMan.


It's possible. I studied under Jack Hayford. :whistle:

[RayMan]

I'd love to get back to SF. Are you guys hiring? :))


Let's see. We have had our numbers whacked from 200 two years ago to 50 a year ago to 23 today. I don't see any hiring happening in the near future but I will keep you in mind. Unless you are a Network Admin, in which case, forget it. I ain't giving up my gig.

[CALady]

Let's see. We have had our numbers whacked from 200 two years ago to 50 a year ago to 23 today. I don't see any hiring happening in the near future but I will keep you in mind. Unless you are a Network Admin, in which case, forget it. I ain't giving up my gig.

Yeah, that's how it's been everywhere.

Network stuff drives me batty... so don't worry. ;)

[RayMan]

Yeah, that's how it's been everywhere.

Network stuff drives me batty... so don't worry. ;)


Unix makes my brain hurt.

[Reeder]

Unix makes my brain hurt.

And Linux?

[RayMan]

And Linux?

I like Ubuntu.

The guy from Boston is doing telnet into this Red Hat box from a webex to a XP box on my desk. I am hopping onto the GUI on the linux box from time to time when I can do something to facilitate what he's doing.

[Frazzled]

:)) I like it when I turn on the computer and everything just magically works!

...thanks to all you computer people :clap:

[CALady]

:)) I like it when I turn on the computer and everything just magically works!

...thanks to all you computer people :clap:

You must own a Mac then. ;)

[Frazzled]

You must own a Mac then. ;)

:doh:


..............no, but since we're converting to vista, we have about 500 IT guys standing by .....

[CALady]

:doh:


..............no, but since we're converting to vista, we have about 500 IT guys standing by .....

You'll need them.... :))

[Snagglepuss]

:doh:


..............no, but since we're converting to vista, we have about 500 IT guys standing by .....

I am particularly grateful that our CEO has explicitly stated that there are no plans in the foreseeable future to ever upgrade to Vista. :clap:

[CALady]

I am particularly grateful that our CEO has explicitly stated that there are no plans in the foreseeable future to ever upgrade to Vista. :clap:

We're still on Windows 2000.... so we won't be on Vista until 2015...

[RayMan]

:doh:


..............no, but since we're converting to vista, we have about 500 IT guys standing by .....

You are going to miss XP so much. In fact, you are going to miss having a computer that actually boots up and lets you do stuff.

[RayMan]

I am particularly grateful that our CEO has explicitly stated that there are no plans in the foreseeable future to ever upgrade to Vista. :clap:


Good for you CEO. My company has about 250 people in I.T. Not a one of us will support Vista. It is banned for life.

[Reeder]

My new computer runs Vista. I actually like it. I've heard, however, that a Vista "upgrade" is as buggy as all getup.

[CALady]

My new computer runs Vista. I actually like it. I've heard, however, that a Vista "upgrade" is as buggy as all getup.

I have Vista on my home PC. It periodically wipes out my network connections, for no good reason.

It is pretty though.

[Old Tex]

Gooseberries are actually what they leave behind. Kind of like dingleberries.

For the record......I did not go past gooseberries.

[Old Tex]

Is everyone having a crappy morning today?

If so, maybe it's because the world ended yesterday.

[RayMan]

If so, maybe it's because the world ended yesterday.


I hate when that happens.

[Old Tex]

Pretty much. All the servers for the S.F. office I am network admin at in S.F. are located in Cedar Rapids. They are dry because they are o the 4th floor but the water in the streets there is 5 feet deep and there is no power so everyone here in S.F. has the day off but me because I am working with some of our Linux guys in Boston to try and get some things going here locally so people can come back to work on Monday and actually be able to do something besides surf the internet.

Got a webex setup for the Boston guy. I can hear his key clicks over the phone while I walk the commands appear in the Linxus terminal box hooked up to my monitor. How exciting!!!

Yes, but is your X box up and working?

[RayMan]

Yes, but is your X box up and working?


I wish. All I got for recreation is the RF and it's kinda quiet today.

[CALady]

I wish. All I got for recreation is the RF and it's kinda quiet today.

We could start a big fight and see how long it takes us to be banned. :))

[Frazzled]

You are going to miss XP so much. In fact, you are going to miss having a computer that actually boots up and lets you do stuff.


:((

....don't tell anyone, but a guy in my office quietly buying up all the IBM T-series ThinkPads on Ebay....I think they're going to be his backup plan.

[Snagglepuss]

If so, maybe it's because the world ended yesterday.Queue REM.....

[Old Tex]

We could start a big fight and see how long it takes us to be banned. :))

I would like to, but my wife is back from the doctor and we are going to resume putting up some dry foodstuffs in quart jars this afternoon. Last night we did a bunch of red beans, flour, powdered milk, quick oats, and something else I don't remember.

Today we are going to do macaroni, speghetti, sugar, cake mix, rice, and mmmmm....choclate pudding. Put it in a wide mouth quart jar, pull a vacuum on it, write a date on it, put it on a shelf, and rotate it. This is the easiest system I've tried so far.

Yes dear, I'm coming. Did you get all the heavy stuff put on the table yet?

[basilisk]

My new computer runs Vista. I actually like it. I've heard, however, that a Vista "upgrade" is as buggy as all getup.
Your version of Vista is buggy, too. You just don't realize how bad it is.

[Reeder]

Your version of Vista is buggy, too. You just don't realize how bad it is.


I haven't come across any problems, yet. The one thing that really bothers me about Vista is how many times it asks me if I'm "sure" thats what I want to do.

"Are you sure?"

Yes.

"Are you absolutely sure?"

Yes

"I'm not feeling it, so I'll ask again....are you sure?"

etc., etc.

[basilisk]

I haven't come across any problems, yet. The one thing that really bothers me about Vista is how many times it asks me if I'm "sure" thats what I want to do.

"Are you sure?"

Yes.

"Are you absolutely sure?"

Yes

"I'm not feeling it, so I'll ask again....are you sure?"

etc., etc.
Funny thing about computers...you don't always know it when they're broken. You don't always know it when someone else is in control, either.

[RayMan]

We could start a big fight and see how long it takes us to be banned. :))

Nah. I tried that a couple days ago. Didn't work. FW just came by and told me to knock it off.

:silenced::silenced:

Finally got off the conf call with the guys in Boston. I am a fully qualified DBA and Linux admin after working with them all day.

My daughter's High School Graduation is tonight. Looking forward to that.

[Mormons Are Christian]

Mormons are not Creedal Christians. However, they do believe in the Jesus Christ of the New Testament:

The Church of Jesus Christ (LDS) is often accused by Evangelical pastors of not believing in Christ and, therefore, not being a Christian religion. This article http://mormonsarechristian.blogspot.com/ helps to clarify such misconceptions by examining early Christianity's comprehension of baptism, the Godhead, the deity of Jesus Christ and His Atonement.

The Church of Jesus Christ (LDS) adheres more closely to First Century Christianity and the New Testament than any other denomination. For example, Harper’s Bible Dictionary entry on the Trinity says “the formal doctrine of the Trinity as it was defined by the great church councils of the fourth and fifth centuries is not to be found in the New Testament.”


One Baptist blogger stated “99 percent of the members of his Baptist church believe in the Mormon (and Early Christian) view of the Trinity. It is the preachers who insist on the Nicene Creed definition.” It seems to me the reason the pastors denigrate the Church of Jesus Christ (LDS) is to protect their flock (and their livelihood).
Further reading; http://jesuschrist.lds.org/SonOfGod/eng/

[noelle12]

If so, maybe it's because the world ended yesterday.

Again?

[CALady]

Mormons are not Creedal Christians. However, they do believe in the Jesus Christ of the New Testament:

The Church of Jesus Christ (LDS) is often accused by Evangelical pastors of not believing in Christ and, therefore, not being a Christian religion. This article http://mormonsarechristian.blogspot.com/ helps to clarify such misconceptions by examining early Christianity's comprehension of baptism, the Godhead, the deity of Jesus Christ and His Atonement.

The Church of Jesus Christ (LDS) adheres more closely to First Century Christianity and the New Testament than any other denomination. For example, Harper’s Bible Dictionary entry on the Trinity says “the formal doctrine of the Trinity as it was defined by the great church councils of the fourth and fifth centuries is not to be found in the New Testament.”


One Baptist blogger stated “99 percent of the members of his Baptist church believe in the Mormon (and Early Christian) view of the Trinity. It is the preachers who insist on the Nicene Creed definition.” It seems to me the reason the pastors denigrate the Church of Jesus Christ (LDS) is to protect their flock (and their livelihood).
Further reading; http://jesuschrist.lds.org/SonOfGod/eng/

Welcome to the Forum, MaC.

Before someone else notices, you might want to frame all that in "in my opinion" because some people don't like statements that claim "such and such is true" when it's something that really comes down to faith and opinion.

[basilisk]

Welcome to the Forum, MaC.

Before someone else notices, you might want to frame all that in "in my opinion" because some people don't like statements that claim "such and such is true" when it's something that really comes down to faith and opinion.
It's an opinion forum. No one, not even the moderators, has a right to not be offended. I just stick to the TOS and I don't have much in the way of problems.

[DarthBush]

why do mormons continue to knock at my door even though i politely answered the door several times and informed them that I'm a born again christian????

[CID_0687]

why do mormons continue to knock at my door even though i politely answered the door several times and informed them that I'm a born again christian????
The two little Mormon kids that come to my house don't bother me as much as the Jehovah's Witnesses...But I do have to hand it to both of them, they're persistent.

[DarthBush]

The two little Mormon kids that come to my house don't bother me as much as the Jehovah's Witnesses...But I do have to hand it to both of them, they're persistent.


That's the one thing I give LDS and JW credit for..

Door to door witnessing is a powerful tool.

Even though i disagree with their messages, I respect the fact they're pounding away, on the street, meeting people instead of waiting for them to come visit their church..

Its something i would like to see change in the Protestant denominations.

[DarthBush]

Welcome to the Forum, MaC.

Before someone else notices, you might want to frame all that in "in my opinion" because some people don't like statements that claim "such and such is true" when it's something that really comes down to faith and opinion.

Stating an opinion within the TOS is perfectly fine.

being offended by said opinion is not the Posters fault..

I would offer the person making the opinion post it in a way that's not respectful..

/offsoapbox

[CID_0687]

That's the one thing I give LDS and JW credit for..

Door to door witnessing is a powerful tool.

Even though i disagree with their messages, I respect the fact they're pounding away, on the street, meeting people instead of waiting for them to come visit their church..

Its something i would like to see change in the Protestant denominations.
Agreed. We could all learn from them on that.

[mrcuff]

why do mormons continue to knock at my door even though i politely answered the door several times and informed them that I'm a born again christian????

Mormon missionaries often rotate to another area, and another missionary rotates in to take his (or her) place. I would venture to say that it is not the same missionaries who continue to knock on your door. Admittedly, we do not tend to keep records of the doors we have knocked on.

Also, I think that we are secretly hoping that you change your mind, and that sometime in the future you might be open to listen to the missionaries. It happens on occasion that a person changes his/her mind. We want to be there if and when that happens.

Please be patient with us. We really don't mean to be rude. We are sincere in our efforts, just as you are sincere in your beliefs. I hope that, even if you don't change your mind, that we can still find some common ground and learn to respect our differences.

[DarthBush]

Mormon missionaries often rotate to another area, and another missionary rotates in to take his (or her) place. I would venture to say that it is not the same missionaries who continue to knock on your door. Admittedly, we do not tend to keep records of the doors we have knocked on.

Its 3 sets of folks ... maybe you guys should start logging a journal? ;)


Also, I think that we are secretly hoping that you change your mind, and that sometime in the future you might be open to listen to the missionaries. It happens on occasion that a person changes his/her mind. We want to be there if and when that happens.

Why do they always ask me if "have i prayed about becoming a mormon?" Just curious.

I usually say "For the same reason why i dont pray about becoming a woman" ;)





Please be patient with us. We really don't mean to be rude. We are sincere in our efforts, just as you are sincere in your beliefs. I hope that, even if you don't change your mind, that we can still find some common ground and learn to respect our differences.


Oh, i dont really mind at all. I find Mormons to be the nices, sincere people around. Good salt of the earth people..
They're wrong but good people... ;)


Btw, I'm an evangelical christian. My only requirement (my beliefs) is that you believe and accept jesus christ as your savior. If we agree on that, then we're cool as Fonzi..

Everything else is fodder for debate...

[mrcuff]

My only requirement (my beliefs) is that you believe and accept jesus christ as your savior. If we agree on that, then we're cool as Fonzi..



I do, I do, I double do.

[DarthBush]

I do, I do, I double do.

Then we have no problems... You go and be a happy mormon..

;)

[SuperD]

how do you make rhubarb crunch? Sounds enticing.

My mother made it a lot like apple crisp only she used rhubarb for the apples and raseberries. It was always great with either ice cream or cream fresh off the milk.

[noelle12]

My only requirement (my beliefs) is that you believe and accept Jesus Christ as your Savior. If we agree on that, then we're cool as Fonzi . . .

I cannot believe that there is an active LDS person in the world who does not accept Jesus Christ as the Savior. It is an absolute, fundamental, core belief of the LDS church. The very name of the church is the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

I'm with you DB. Jesus Christ and His divine role of Savior of the world is the most important thing. If all of Christendom would see each other as brothers and sisters in Christ, and not squabble about all of the other stuff, I think we as a group would be able to have more influence on the rest of the world. Who wants to follow the example of people who are insulting or criticizing each other?

Don't get me wrong, I think that there are some important things among "the other stuff," but our common belief in Jesus Christ and His divinity should bring us together more. I am glad that both here on this forum, as well as in our various communities there are many people of different faiths who do work together. I would like this positive message to be heard more, while the antagonistic elements get heard from less.

[justamere10]

I cannot believe that there is an active LDS person in the world who does not accept Jesus Christ as the Savior. It is an absolute, fundamental, core belief of the LDS church. The very name of the church is the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

I'm with you DB. Jesus Christ and His divine role of Savior of the world is the most important thing. If all of Christendom would see each other as brothers and sisters in Christ, and not squabble about all of the other stuff, I think we as a group would be able to have more influence on the rest of the world. Who wants to follow the example of people who are insulting or criticizing each other?

Don't get me wrong, I think that there are some important things among "the other stuff," but our common belief in Jesus Christ and His divinity should bring us together more. I am glad that both here on this forum, as well as in our various communities there are many people of different faiths who do work together. I would like this positive message to be heard more, while the antagonistic elements get heard from less.

I totally agree with your statement:

"If all of Christendom would see each other as brothers and sisters in Christ, and not squabble about all of the other stuff, I think we as a group would be able to have more influence on the rest of the world."

I think it's way past time to ignore the scholars and pastors who puffed up in their learning (they're not all that way) proudly quibble about how many angels can dance on the head of a pin. I think it's way past time for the grassroots of ALL Christian denominations to BOLDLY and respectfully declare Jesus Christ, His atonement and resurrection, and the wondrous walk He walked...

Live right examples and teach the principle of repentance and faith in the Savior to every person on earth and we'll be doing as He asks us to do in our time. That's the urgent message every Christian must tell regardless of denomination or the persuasions of pastors who separate and divide even fellow followers of Jesus Christ if their living seems threatened (they're not all that way.)

We must declare the Christian walk and gather all of His sheep who will come before there arrives the prophesied separation of the wicked from the righteous, and those on His left hand are irretrievably lost from our generation.

There is great power in Christianity to peacefully change the world, but only when we LIVE the way our Master taught us we must and cease to argue amongst each other over differences of opinion and biblical interpretation. Does your denomination have more light than mine? Does mine have more light than yours? Wonderful, we'll shine those lights TOGETHER and create a single ONE that cannot be ignored anywhere in the world...

That's how I see our present task and calling as fellow followers of Jesus Christ in these wicked last days before His glorious Second Coming.

[Old Tex]

why do mormons continue to knock at my door even though i politely answered the door several times and informed them that I'm a born again christian????

You are one of the lucky ones, getting all those chances to hear what they have to say.

[Mikko]

why do mormons continue to knock at my door even though i politely answered the door several times and informed them that I'm a born again christian????
Why do "mainstream" Christians have extensive missionary ministries, including door-to-door ones? They want to convert you, dude. A young lady LDS missionary approached my wife and me today in a proselytization attempt. We very nicely told her that our spiritual needs were already met, and she was quite gracious about it. It was a pleasant encounter.

[Old Tex]

I have Vista on my home PC. It periodically wipes out my network connections, for no good reason.

It is pretty though.

When I upgraded to XP I got quite unhappy with having to find and install new drivers for some of my "old" software. Then I had to download some "firmware" and burn it in to my printer to make it work. No, I don't think that I will change anything until I decide to buy a new computer.

[Christian Voter]

Why do "mainstream" Christians have extensive missionary ministries, including door-to-door ones? They want to convert you, dude. A young lady LDS missionary approached my wife and me today in a proselytation attempt. We very nicely told her that our spiritual needs were already met, and she was quite gracious about it. It was a pleasant encounter.

Okay, but did you tell her that your spiritual needs are met through an online forum discussion?
:))
(joking)

[Christian Voter]

Extensive missionary efforts are for the purpose of sharing the gospel.

[Mikko]

Extensive missionary efforts are for the purpose of sharing the gospel.
And turning non-Christians into Christians, or Christians of one type into Christians of another type. There would be no sharing of the Gospel if that weren't the aim.

[Eagle]

Why is it that LDS claim that there is historical evidence for the "peoples" mentioned in the book of mormon. as of to date there is no evidence to coincide with the "book" that none of these people have ever existed nor have the civilizations hhhhmmmmm further more a prominent member of the LDS who was an archeologist with a ph.D set out to prove what the "prophet" smith said about the North American Indians, that they were the lost tribe of Israel.
Well after much study and scientific research and DNA evidence he approached the "elders" of the LDS and told them with out a doubt............that there is absolutely no possible way that the North American Indian tribes were of any Israelite heritage (or Hebrew) that their DNA matched that of what other scientists have said they are of ASIAN heritage. Well for this mans much hard work and time and effort the board of "elders" chose to reward this man with>>>>EXCOMMUNICATION<<<<< from their church. What does the Old testament teach about false prophets KJV Deuteronomy18:22----
Brigham Young in Journal of Discoures 13:271(July 24, 1870): Who can tell us of the inhabitants of this little planet that shines of an evening, called the Moon?... When you inquire about the inhabitants of that sphere you find that the most learned are as ignorant in regard to them as the most ignorant of their fellows. So it is with regard to the inhabitants of the sun. Do you think it is inhabited? No question of it; it was not made in vain. It was made to give light to those who dwell upon it, and to other planets; and so will this earth when it is celestialized....
-------Joseph Smith, Jr., on January 4, 1883 had this to say "And now I am prepared to say by the authority of Jesus Christ, that not many years shall pass away before the United States shall present such a scene of bloodshed as has not a parallel in the history of our nation; pestilence, hail, famine and earthquake will sweep the wicked of this generation from off the face of the land, to open and prepare the way for the return of the lost tribe of Israel from the North Country....therefore, "Fear God, and give glory to Him, for the hour of His judgement is come." ....there are those now living upon this earth whose eyes shall not be closed in death until they see all these things, which I have spoken, fulfilled (History of the Church 1:315-16; Teachings, pages 17-18). ----so are these people still alive that would make them 125 years old and did these happen? I don't think so...

Need I bring more factual evidence to light. These are the very words of the LDS prophets..... Not outside gentile lies to attack the mormon church, goverment agencies or hateful media aligned to bring Joseph Smith and his "glasslooking" to a bad character of sort. This is just a small piece of historical evidence presented here. As for the angels nephi and moroni ....Galations 1: 8-9 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than which we have preached unto you let him be accursed. 9.. As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have recieved, let him be accursed...

And could you please show us in the Bible that Lucifer an ANGEL (Angel of Light) a created being is the brother of Jesus Christ born in the flesh by a Virgin and that he was conceived by the Holy Spirit (Mary did not have sexual relations with God a resurrected physical man as the mormons claim) or is the position of the LDS an allegorical stance of interpretation and therefore cannot be tested by historical evidence. or will this to be realigned to fit other flaws of the LDS theology that have been brought to light by simple truth.
Just simple Questions???

[coMITTed]

Why is it that LDS claim that there is historical evidence for the "peoples" mentioned in the book of mormon. as of to date there is no evidence to coincide with the "book" that none of these people have ever existed nor have the civilizations hhhhmmmmm further more a prominent member of the LDS who was an archeologist with a ph.D set out to prove what the "prophet" smith said about the North American Indians, that they were the lost tribe of Israel.
Well after much study and scientific research and DNA evidence he approached the "elders" of the LDS and told them with out a doubt............that there is absolutely no possible way that the North American Indian tribes were of any Israelite heritage (or Hebrew) that their DNA matched that of what other scientists have said they are of ASIAN heritage. Well for this mans much hard work and time and effort the board of "elders" chose to reward this man with>>>>EXCOMMUNICATION<<<<< from their church. What does the Old testament teach about false prophets KJV Deuteronomy18:22----
Brigham Young in Journal of Discoures 13:271(July 24, 1870): Who can tell us of the inhabitants of this little planet that shines of an evening, called the Moon?... When you inquire about the inhabitants of that sphere you find that the most learned are as ignorant in regard to them as the most ignorant of their fellows. So it is with regard to the inhabitants of the sun. Do you think it is inhabited? No question of it; it was not made in vain. It was made to give light to those who dwell upon it, and to other planets; and so will this earth when it is celestialized....
-------Joseph Smith, Jr., on January 4, 1883 had this to say "And now I am prepared to say by the authority of Jesus Christ, that not many years shall pass away before the United States shall present such a scene of bloodshed as has not a parallel in the history of our nation; pestilence, hail, famine and earthquake will sweep the wicked of this generation from off the face of the land, to open and prepare the way for the return of the lost tribe of Israel from the North Country....therefore, "Fear God, and give glory to Him, for the hour of His judgement is come." ....there are those now living upon this earth whose eyes shall not be closed in death until they see all these things, which I have spoken, fulfilled (History of the Church 1:315-16; Teachings, pages 17-18). ----so are these people still alive that would make them 125 years old and did these happen? I don't think so...

Need I bring more factual evidence to light. These are the very words of the LDS prophets..... Not outside gentile lies to attack the mormon church, goverment agencies or hateful media aligned to bring Joseph Smith and his "glasslooking" to a bad character of sort. This is just a small piece of historical evidence presented here. As for the angels nephi and moroni ....Galations 1: 8-9 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than which we have preached unto you let him be accursed. 9.. As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have recieved, let him be accursed...

And could you please show us in the Bible that Lucifer an ANGEL (Angel of Light) a created being is the brother of Jesus Christ born in the flesh by a Virgin and that he was conceived by the Holy Spirit (Mary did not have sexual relations with God a resurrected physical man as the mormons claim) or is the position of the LDS an allegorical stance of interpretation and therefore cannot be tested by historical evidence. or will this to be realigned to fit other flaws of the LDS theology that have been brought to light by simple truth.
Just simple Questions???

Wow, how original! You must be the very FIRST person to ever scour the JoD, picking out random quotes out of context, posing these EXACT cunundrums on these forums based on the lies you found at some anti-website or whatever your preacher told you in your "25 Easy Ways to Debunk the Mormon Faith" class at your local church. Whatever shall we LDS do now? Well, the cat's out of the bag--we believe in false prophets and worship Satan :rolleyes:. Guess we better just all pack up now and call it a day!

[mrcuff]

Why is it that LDS claim that there is historical evidence for the "peoples" mentioned in the book of mormon. as of to date there is no evidence to coincide with the "book" that none of these people have ever existed nor have the civilizations hhhhmmmmm further more a prominent member of the LDS who was an archeologist with a ph.D set out to prove what the "prophet" smith said about the North American Indians, that they were the lost tribe of Israel.
Well after much study and scientific research and DNA evidence he approached the "elders" of the LDS and told them with out a doubt............that there is absolutely no possible way that the North American Indian tribes were of any Israelite heritage (or Hebrew) that their DNA matched that of what other scientists have said they are of ASIAN heritage. Well for this mans much hard work and time and effort the board of "elders" chose to reward this man with>>>>EXCOMMUNICATION<<<<< from their church. What does the Old testament teach about false prophets KJV Deuteronomy18:22----
Brigham Young in Journal of Discoures 13:271(July 24, 1870): Who can tell us of the inhabitants of this little planet that shines of an evening, called the Moon?... When you inquire about the inhabitants of that sphere you find that the most learned are as ignorant in regard to them as the most ignorant of their fellows. So it is with regard to the inhabitants of the sun. Do you think it is inhabited? No question of it; it was not made in vain. It was made to give light to those who dwell upon it, and to other planets; and so will this earth when it is celestialized....
-------Joseph Smith, Jr., on January 4, 1883 had this to say "And now I am prepared to say by the authority of Jesus Christ, that not many years shall pass away before the United States shall present such a scene of bloodshed as has not a parallel in the history of our nation; pestilence, hail, famine and earthquake will sweep the wicked of this generation from off the face of the land, to open and prepare the way for the return of the lost tribe of Israel from the North Country....therefore, "Fear God, and give glory to Him, for the hour of His judgement is come." ....there are those now living upon this earth whose eyes shall not be closed in death until they see all these things, which I have spoken, fulfilled (History of the Church 1:315-16; Teachings, pages 17-18). ----so are these people still alive that would make them 125 years old and did these happen? I don't think so...

Need I bring more factual evidence to light. These are the very words of the LDS prophets..... Not outside gentile lies to attack the mormon church, goverment agencies or hateful media aligned to bring Joseph Smith and his "glasslooking" to a bad character of sort. This is just a small piece of historical evidence presented here. As for the angels nephi and moroni ....Galations 1: 8-9 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than which we have preached unto you let him be accursed. 9.. As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have recieved, let him be accursed...

And could you please show us in the Bible that Lucifer an ANGEL (Angel of Light) a created being is the brother of Jesus Christ born in the flesh by a Virgin and that he was conceived by the Holy Spirit (Mary did not have sexual relations with God a resurrected physical man as the mormons claim) or is the position of the LDS an allegorical stance of interpretation and therefore cannot be tested by historical evidence. or will this to be realigned to fit other flaws of the LDS theology that have been brought to light by simple truth.
Just simple Questions???

There is just too much information in this one post. If you expect any dialogue at all, I suggest that you ask one question at a time, rather than use the 'shotgun' approach, which is the typical approach that critics of the Church use. There are answers to these questions, but until you get a little more pithy, you might not get many takers. Just a suggestion.

[mrcuff]

Wow, how original! You must be the very FIRST person to ever scour the JoD, picking out random quotes out of context, posing these EXACT cunundrums on these forums based on the lies you found at some anti-website or whatever your preacher told you in your "25 Easy Ways to Debunk the Mormon Faith" class at your local church. Whatever shall we LDS do now? Well, the cat's out of the bag--we believe in false prophets and worship Satan :rolleyes:. Guess we better just all pack up now and call it a day!

I rest my case.

[mrcuff]

-------Joseph Smith, Jr., on January 4, 1883 had this to say...

We might take you more seriously if you get your facts straight........Considering the Prophet died in 1844.

[orbitaldecay]

We might take you more seriously if you get your facts straight........Considering the Prophet died in 1844.

:))

I missed that.

[Eagle]

Sorry for the typo it was 1833 and that would make those people alot older that should be alive today to witness Smiths prophecy being fulfilled oh... around 175 years old.... so where are these people. hidden somewhere? hahahhha
You think my typo was funny.
I think it is hilarious that that was the only thing you found wrong with my post other than IT WAS to much info. and that you could not discredit the information or the words of that which Young & Smith spoke because they are straight out of The Mormon teachings not made up.

And further more that was the typical hostel response when the truth is spoken or a falsehood is uncovered. Gentlemen, the history of the LDS speaks for itself and it was all written down by your prophets.
So when someone asks the simple Question: Hey, why is it that the prophesy that Smith guy spoke in the authority of Jesus Christ ..........
why has it not been fulflled yet?

You guys get all defensive.:wall:

Or what about the inhabitants of the moon or the sun where are they?
You guys get upset.
It is what YOUR prophets taught........ simply dug up from a history of the LDS burying what they are ashamed of and do not want the public to know or potential converts to know.

So did you guys let that archeologist fellow back in the church?

KJV Deuteronomy 18:22 <that truth then..... still applys today as truth. So please lets stop the dissimulation.

[Old Tex]

I received the below message today. I thought I would share it.
It is said to be a copy of an editorial in a Santa Clarita California
newspaper by Paul Allen. It didn't have a date on it. I don't know
how recent it is.

Old Tex
==========================================


MICROSOFT FOUNDER, NFL OWNER, PAUL ALLEN, SPEAKS OUT ON MORMONS

Paul Allen is the owner of the Seattle Seahawks, the ones who played
the Pittsburgh Steelers for the Super Bowl a few years ago. He is also
the owner of the Portland Trail Blazers NBA basketball team and is co-
partner with Bill Gates in Microsoft.


"I have heard and seen enough!

I have lived in the West all my life. I have worked around them.
They have worked for me and I for them. When I was young, I dated
their daughters. When I got married they came to my wedding. Now
that I have daughters of my own, some of their boys have dated my
daughters. I would be privileged if one of them were to be my
son-in-law.

I'm talking about the Mormons.

They are some of the most honest, hardworking people I have ever
known. They are spiritual, probably more than most other so-called
religious people I have encountered. They study the Bible and teach
from it as much as any Christian church ever has. They serve their
religion without pay in every conceivable capacity.

Not one of their leaders, teachers, counselors, Bishops or music
directors receive one dime for the hours of labor they put in.

The Mormons have a non-paid ministry - a fact that is not generally
known. I have heard many times from the pulpits of others how evil
and non-Christian they are and that they will not go to heaven. I
decided recently to attend one of their services near my home to see
for myself.

What a surprise!

What I heard and saw was just the opposite from what the religious
ministers of the day were telling me. I found a very simple service
with no fanfare. I found a people with a great sense of humor and a
well-balanced spiritual side. There was no loud music. Just a simple
service, with the members themselves giving the several short
sermons.

They urge their youth to be morally clean and live a good life.
They teach the gospel of Christ, as they understand it. The name of
their church is 'The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day-Saints.
Does that sound like a non-Christian church to you? I asked them
many questions about what they teach and why.

I got answers that in most cases were from the New Testament.
Their ideas and doctrines did not seem too far fetched for my
understanding. When I read their 'Book of Mormon' I was also
very surprised to find just the opposite from what I had been
told I would find.

Then I went to another church's pastor to ask him some of the same
questions about doctrine. To my surprise, when he found out that I
was in some way investigating the Mormons, he became hostile. He
referred to them as a non-Christian cult.

I received what sounded to me like evil propaganda against those
people. He stated bluntly that they were not Christian and that
they did not fit into the Christian mold.

He also told me that they don't really believe the Bible. He gave me
a pile of anti-Mormon literature. He began to rant that the Mormons
were not telling me the truth about what they stand for. He didn't
want to hear anything good about them.

At first I was surprised and then again, I wasn't. I began to wonder.

I have never known of a cult that supports the Boy Scouts of America.
According to the Boy Scouts, over a third of all the Boy Scout
troops in the United States are Mormon.

What cult do you know of that has a welfare system second to none in
this country? They have farms, canneries and cattle ranches to help
take care of the unfortunate ones who might be down and out and in
need of a little help.

The Mormon Church has donated millions to welfare causes around
the world without a word of credit. They have donated thousands
to help rebuild Baptist churches that were burned a few years ago.
They have donated tons of medical supplies to countries ravaged
by earthquakes.

You never see them on TV begging for money. What cult do you know
that instills in its members to obey the law, pay their taxes, serve
in the military if asked and be a good Christia n by living high
moral standards?

Did you know that hundreds of thousands of Mormon youth get up
before high school starts in the morning to attend a religious training
class? They have basketball and softball leagues and supervised
youth dances every month.

They are recruited by the FBI, the State Department and every police
department in the country, because they are Trustworthy. They are
taught not to drink nor take drugs. They are in the Secret Service -
those who protect the President.

They serve in high leadership positions from both parties in Congress
and in the US Senate, and have been governors of several states
other than Utah. They serve with distinction and honor.

If you have Mormons living near, you will probably find them to be
your best friends and neighbors. They are Christians who try to live
what they preach. They are not perfect and they are the first to admit
this.

I have known some of them who could not live their religion,
just like many of us. The rhetoric which is spread around against
them is nothing more than evil propaganda founded in untruths.
(Others) had successfully demonized them to the point that the general
public has no idea what they actually believe and teach. If you
really want to know the truth, go see for yourself. You also will be
surprised.

When I first moved here some 25 years ago there were five Mormon wards
in Santa Clarita, Calif. Now there are 15. They must be doing
something right."

[Eagle]

:doh:And has the thought occurred to you that I may be an ex-mormon?
:whistle:

[noelle12]

:doh:And has the thought occurred to you that I may be an ex-mormon?
:whistle:

yes.

[noelle12]

I received the below message today. I thought I would share it.
It is said to be a copy of an editorial in a Santa Clarita California
newspaper by Paul Allen. It didn't have a date on it. I don't know
how recent it is.

Old Tex
==========================================


MICROSOFT FOUNDER, NFL OWNER, PAUL ALLEN, SPEAKS OUT ON MORMONS

Paul Allen is the owner of the Seattle Seahawks, the ones who played
the Pittsburgh Steelers for the Super Bowl a few years ago. He is also
the owner of the Portland Trail Blazers NBA basketball team and is co-
partner with Bill Gates in Microsoft.


"I have heard and seen enough!

I have lived in the West all my life. I have worked around them.
They have worked for me and I for them. When I was young, I dated
their daughters. When I got married they came to my wedding. Now
that I have daughters of my own, some of their boys have dated my
daughters. I would be privileged if one of them were to be my
son-in-law.

I'm talking about the Mormons.

They are some of the most honest, hardworking people I have ever
known. They are spiritual, probably more than most other so-called
religious people I have encountered. They study the Bible and teach
from it as much as any Christian church ever has. They serve their
religion without pay in every conceivable capacity.

Not one of their leaders, teachers, counselors, Bishops or music
directors receive one dime for the hours of labor they put in.

The Mormons have a non-paid ministry - a fact that is not generally
known. I have heard many times from the pulpits of others how evil
and non-Christian they are and that they will not go to heaven. I
decided recently to attend one of their services near my home to see
for myself.

What a surprise!

What I heard and saw was just the opposite from what the religious
ministers of the day were telling me. I found a very simple service
with no fanfare. I found a people with a great sense of humor and a
well-balanced spiritual side. There was no loud music. Just a simple
service, with the members themselves giving the several short
sermons.

They urge their youth to be morally clean and live a good life.
They teach the gospel of Christ, as they understand it. The name of
their church is 'The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day-Saints.
Does that sound like a non-Christian church to you? I asked them
many questions about what they teach and why.

I got answers that in most cases were from the New Testament.
Their ideas and doctrines did not seem too far fetched for my
understanding. When I read their 'Book of Mormon' I was also
very surprised to find just the opposite from what I had been
told I would find.

Then I went to another church's pastor to ask him some of the same
questions about doctrine. To my surprise, when he found out that I
was in some way investigating the Mormons, he became hostile. He
referred to them as a non-Christian cult.

I received what sounded to me like evil propaganda against those
people. He stated bluntly that they were not Christian and that
they did not fit into the Christian mold.

He also told me that they don't really believe the Bible. He gave me
a pile of anti-Mormon literature. He began to rant that the Mormons
were not telling me the truth about what they stand for. He didn't
want to hear anything good about them.

At first I was surprised and then again, I wasn't. I began to wonder.

I have never known of a cult that supports the Boy Scouts of America.
According to the Boy Scouts, over a third of all the Boy Scout
troops in the United States are Mormon.

What cult do you know of that has a welfare system second to none in
this country? They have farms, canneries and cattle ranches to help
take care of the unfortunate ones who might be down and out and in
need of a little help.

The Mormon Church has donated millions to welfare causes around
the world without a word of credit. They have donated thousands
to help rebuild Baptist churches that were burned a few years ago.
They have donated tons of medical supplies to countries ravaged
by earthquakes.

You never see them on TV begging for money. What cult do you know
that instills in its members to obey the law, pay their taxes, serve
in the military if asked and be a good Christia n by living high
moral standards?

Did you know that hundreds of thousands of Mormon youth get up
before high school starts in the morning to attend a religious training
class? They have basketball and softball leagues and supervised
youth dances every month.

They are recruited by the FBI, the State Department and every police
department in the country, because they are Trustworthy. They are
taught not to drink nor take drugs. They are in the Secret Service -
those who protect the President.

They serve in high leadership positions from both parties in Congress
and in the US Senate, and have been governors of several states
other than Utah. They serve with distinction and honor.

If you have Mormons living near, you will probably find them to be
your best friends and neighbors. They are Christians who try to live
what they preach. They are not perfect and they are the first to admit
this.

I have known some of them who could not live their religion,
just like many of us. The rhetoric which is spread around against
them is nothing more than evil propaganda founded in untruths.
(Others) had successfully demonized them to the point that the general
public has no idea what they actually believe and teach. If you
really want to know the truth, go see for yourself. You also will be
surprised.

When I first moved here some 25 years ago there were five Mormon wards
in Santa Clarita, Calif. Now there are 15. They must be doing
something right."

This letter was in fact written, but not by

Paul Allen is the owner of the Seattle Seahawks, the ones who played
the Pittsburgh Steelers for the Super Bowl a few years ago. He is also
the owner of the Portland Trail Blazers NBA basketball team and is co-
partner with Bill Gates in Microsoft.

just a regular guy, member of the community named Paul Allen. It was published on 24 November 2000. This information is according to snopes.com

[coMITTed]

:doh:And has the thought occurred to you that I may be an ex-mormon?
:whistle:

Wait for it, drumroll, dramatic pause. . .



















SHOCKER! :rolleyes:

[DarthBush]

can one of you good mormons explain the whole sacred burning in the bosom?

I enjoy hearing anything that remotely relates to Bosoms

[Reeder]

can one of you good mormons explain the whole sacred burning in the bosom?

I enjoy hearing anything that remotely relates to Bosoms

:))

[hillplus]

can one of you good mormons explain the whole sacred burning in the bosom?

I enjoy hearing anything that remotely relates to Bosoms

It's simply one of many ways to describe the witness of the Holy Spirit.

[Reeder]

Sorry for the typo it was 1833 and that would make those people alot older that should be alive today to witness Smiths prophecy being fulfilled oh... around 175 years old.... so where are these people. hidden somewhere? hahahhha
You think my typo was funny.

One word for ya, pal: Hypocrite

You search through website after website declaring the "Mormon" faith to be false and full of errors, yet you look past the only Book that you hold to be the sacred Word of God. Take a look at Matthew 24. Christ is prophesying in these verses:

Mathew Chapter 24

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:

33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.

34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.



Whoa!! Hold the cart! What did He just say? THIS GENERATION....????? But that would make them like 2,000 years old now, right? But you MUST be right, Joseph Smith's prophecy makes him a false prophet since those of HIS generation would now be 175 years old.

175 years ----------> 2,000 years........which one is more "wrong" according to you? :rolleyes:, :rolleyes:, and :rolleyes:




I think it is hilarious that that was the only thing you found wrong with my post other than IT WAS to much info. and that you could not discredit the information or the words of that which Young & Smith spoke because they are straight out of The Mormon teachings not made up.

The JoD is not doctrine. You're new here, so I'll just leave it at that.


And further more that was the typical hostel response when the truth is spoken or a falsehood is uncovered. Gentlemen, the history of the LDS speaks for itself and it was all written down by your prophets.

Yeah, some of it was written down by our Prophets. So. Whats your point?


So when someone asks the simple Question: Hey, why is it that the prophesy that Smith guy spoke in the authority of Jesus Christ ..........
why has it not been fulflled yet?

Perhaps its the same reason why Jesus Christ Himself prophesied that "this generation shall not pass, till ALL these things be fulfilled."

If you can explain that one, then I'll explain the other.


You guys get all defensive.:wall:

I have a feeling you're about to do the same.


Or what about the inhabitants of the moon or the sun where are they?

Easy, I don't believe there are inhabitants on the moon, or sun. Atleast not mortal, tangible, physical beings. That was Brigham Young's opinion. Its not doctrine. I thought an "ex-Mormon" would know that.


You guys get upset.

I read the responses to your post by some of the LDS members here. I didn't see anyone getting upset. I guess you must be the type who automatically assumes that all LDS members get upset over everything. Its drilled into your head, and you will never believe otherwise.


It is what YOUR prophets taught........ simply dug up from a history of the LDS burying what they are ashamed of and do not want the public to know or potential converts to know.

Buried? Really? I've read all of those quotes before. How did I read them if they were buried? No one is hiding anything. I'm not ashamed that Brigham Young talked about people living on the moon. It makes no difference to me. I still believe he was called of God to be a Prophet during the latter half of the 19th century.


So did you guys let that archeologist fellow back in the church?

There are many, many scholars and scientists who will go to their graves believing that there is no afterlife, and that the Bible is full of many errors. Oh, and they'll tell you that they can prove it, too. Does that destroy your faith?


KJV Deuteronomy 18:22 <that truth then..... still applys today as truth. So please lets stop the dissimulation.

So......are you saying that Jesus Christ was a false prophet? Oops. You might want to rethink that statement.

[orbitaldecay]

Why is it that LDS claim that there is historical evidence for the "peoples" mentioned in the book of mormon. as of to date there is no evidence to coincide with the "book" that none of these people have ever existed nor have the civilizations hhhhmmmmm further more a prominent member of the LDS who was an archeologist with a ph.D set out to prove what the "prophet" smith said about the North American Indians, that they were the lost tribe of Israel.
Well after much study and scientific research and DNA evidence he approached the "elders" of the LDS and told them with out a doubt............that there is absolutely no possible way that the North American Indian tribes were of any Israelite heritage (or Hebrew) that their DNA matched that of what other scientists have said they are of ASIAN heritage. Well for this mans much hard work and time and effort the board of "elders" chose to reward this man with>>>>EXCOMMUNICATION<<<<< from their church. What does the Old testament teach about false prophets KJV Deuteronomy18:22----

Prove to me that Christ rose form the dead three days after his death, Noah built an ark, Moses split the Red Sea, etc. Attacking us from "scientifically speaking, your church is wrong" gives you no leg to stand on either. But I think we both understand the importance of Faith in the Gospel of Jesus Christ.


Brigham Young in Journal of Discoures 13:271(July 24, 1870): Who can tell us of the inhabitants of this little planet that shines of an evening, called the Moon?... When you inquire about the inhabitants of that sphere you find that the most learned are as ignorant in regard to them as the most ignorant of their fellows. So it is with regard to the inhabitants of the sun. Do you think it is inhabited? No question of it; it was not made in vain. It was made to give light to those who dwell upon it, and to other planets; and so will this earth when it is celestialized....

Yes Brigham's quote in JoD is, of course, not doctrine of church. JoD is not doctrine because many parts of it are not first hand accounts. So I'm not entirely sure that was the context of BY's quote. If it was... so what? It has been said on this very forum many times that just because we call him a prophet of God, doesn't mean we think he was sinless and perfect.

-------Joseph Smith, Jr., on January 4, 1883 had this to say "And now I am prepared to say by the authority of Jesus Christ, that not many years shall pass away before the United States shall present such a scene of bloodshed as has not a parallel in the history of our nation; pestilence, hail, famine and earthquake will sweep the wicked of this generation from off the face of the land, to open and prepare the way for the return of the lost tribe of Israel from the North Country....therefore, "Fear God, and give glory to Him, for the hour of His judgement is come." ....there are those now living upon this earth whose eyes shall not be closed in death until they see all these things, which I have spoken, fulfilled (History of the Church 1:315-16; Teachings, pages 17-18). ----so are these people still alive that would make them 125 years old and did these happen? I don't think so...

Another Jod quote applies to the above. The "..." (ellipsis) hurts your reliability of the context of the quote.

As for the "that not many years shall pass away before the United States shall present such a scene of bloodshed as has not a parallel in the history of our nation".

27 years later, the Civil War? Anybody? :whistle:

Need I bring more factual evidence to light. These are the very words of the LDS prophets..... Not outside gentile lies to attack the mormon church, goverment agencies or hateful media aligned to bring Joseph Smith and his "glasslooking" to a bad character of sort. This is just a small piece of historical evidence presented here. As for the angels nephi and moroni ....Galations 1: 8-9 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than which we have preached unto you let him be accursed. 9.. As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have recieved, let him be accursed...


I saw not one piece of "historical evidence", no citation, nothing. You'll find that many LDS aren't going to quit the LDS Church just because of your words. (that is your purpose of the previous posts?)

And could you please show us in the Bible that Lucifer an ANGEL (Angel of Light)
a created being is the brother of Jesus Christ We could show you a lot of things in the Bible but you wouldn't believe us. :rolleyes:


born in the flesh by a Virgin and that he was conceived by the Holy Spirit (Mary did not have sexual relations with God a resurrected physical man as the mormons claim)

As Mormons claim? The above is not a doctrine of our church. Nice try though.

or is the position of the LDS an allegorical stance of interpretation and therefore cannot be tested by historical evidence. or will this to be realigned to fit other flaws of the LDS theology that have been brought to light by simple truth.
Just simple Questions???

Okay...

Like MrCuff said, let's try to take on one issue at a time. Your shotgun approach is at best, annoying. But we will be happy to answer your questions (one at a time).

[MobyMule]

Reeder I had to laugh on that one. Good catch.

[Reeder]

Reeder I had to laugh on that one. Good catch.

It makes it obvious that people like that don't pay attention to their own Bible. Yet they are willing to take the time to search out websites about why the "Mormon" Church is false.

It makes me wonder what their ultimate intentions are......to become more Christ-like, or to try and tear down others' beliefs.

[scipio337]

Prove to me that Christ rose form the dead three days after his death, Noah built an ark, Moses split the Red Sea, etc. Attacking us from "scientifically speaking, your church is wrong" gives you no leg to stand on either. But I think we both understand the importance of Faith in the Gospel of Jesus Christ.


Why is this line of thinking always thrown out as a defense? One is ancient history and a subjective faith. You don't have to believe in the historical veracity of The Flood to be Jewish or Christian.

The BOM is different in that regard. It relies, ultimately, on Joseph Smith receiving this record of "ancient peoples" who, by most historians, did not exist.

[hillplus]

Do Mormons believe Mary Magdalene and Jesus were married? If so, then, what about John 19:25-27, KJV: "Now there stood by the cross of Jesus his mother, and his mother's sister, Mary the wife of Cleophas, and Mary Magdalene. When Jesus therefore saw his mother, and the disciple standing by, whom he loved, he saith unto his mother, Woman, behold thy son! Then saith he to the disciple, Behold thy mother! And from that hour that disciple took her unto his own home"? Why did Jesus fail to provide for Magdalene after his death? One would think that his failure to provide for Magdalene after his death would mean that he wasn't married to her. It's either that or Jesus was a rotten husband. Take your pick!:)

There is not enough evidence either way. It doesn't matter. There is NO official (or unofficial) statement one way or another. Complete non issue.

[HokieCougarVandal]

Why is this line of thinking always thrown out as a defense? One is ancient history and a subjective faith. You don't have to believe in the historical veracity of The Flood to be Jewish or Christian.

The BOM is different in that regard. It relies, ultimately, on Joseph Smith receiving this record of "ancient peoples" who, by most historians, did not exist.
Wha...?
You don't have to believe in the historical veracity of The Flood to be Jewish or Christian.
Veracity:
–noun, plural -ties for 4. 1. habitual observance of truth in speech or statement; truthfulness: He was not noted for his veracity.
2. conformity to truth or fact; accuracy: to question the veracity of his account.
3. correctness or accuracy, as of the senses or of a scientific instrument.
4. something veracious; a truth.

So why are so many willing to place their spiritual lives in something that isn't historically accurate? And then why do some of these same people berate the BoM because of their perceived lack of its historical accuracy?:think:

[HokieCougarVandal]

There is not enough evidence either way. It doesn't matter. There is NO official (or unofficial) statement one way or another. Complete non issue.
What them said.

If it doesn't affect your salvation, do you really need to know in this life?