Twenty Proofs That the Church Existed Prior to Pentecost

[cbut1]

First let me say I do not know this person nor do I know anyone who does. I do not claim to agree nor disagree with what the author has written but I find it an interesting topic that I think others may enjoy participating in discussion in.



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by Pastor Greg Wilson

1. The literal meaning of the word church (ekklesia). From ek, meaning "out" and kaleo meaning "to call." Jesus called out His disciples from the disciples of John early in His public ministry, forming the church or called-out assembly (John 1:35-51).

2. Christ said He would leave His “house” on earth when He went on a “far journey” (ascended back unto heaven) (Mark 13: 31-37). The church is identified as His “house” (Heb. 3:1-6; 1 Tim. 3:15; Eph. 2:20,21; 1 Cor. 3:16). Christ ascended prior to Pentecost (Mark 16:19; Acts 1:9-11).

3. Christ spoke of His disciples as a “flock” prior to Pentecost (Luke 12:32; Matt. 26:31,32). The church is identified as the “flock” of God (Acts 20:28,29; 1 Pet. 5:2,3).

4. They preached the gospel prior to Pentecost (Mark 1:1; 3:14; Matt. 10:14; Luke 10:1-17).

5. They had Holy Spirit power prior to Pentecost (Matt. 10:5, 19,20).

6. They baptized prior to Pentecost (John 4:1,2).

7. They received the Lord’s Supper prior to Pentecost (Matt. 26:26; Luke 22:17-20; Mark 14:22-26).

8. They had an ordained ministry prior to Pentecost (Mark 3:14; cf. 1 Cor. 12:28).

9. They had church discipline prior to Pentecost (Matt. 18:15-17).

10. They had Christ as their “head” prior to Pentecost (John 13:14; cf. Eph. 1:22,23).

11. They had a membership of 120 prior to Pentecost (Acts 1:15; note, “names”).

12. They had a business meeting and elected officers prior to Pentecost (Acts 1:15-26).

13. They had a treasurer prior to Pentecost (John 13:29).

14. They “added” 3,000 on the day of Pentecost (Acts 2:41).

15. They had the “Great Commission” prior to Pentecost (Matt. 28:19,20).

16. Christ was “building” His church prior to Pentecost (Matt. 16:18).

17. They (“us”) had been in existence (“companied with us”) “from the baptism of John” (Acts 1:21,22).

18. The Bridegroom was with His Bride (the church) prior to Pentecost (John 3:29; cf. Eph. 5:22-33; 2 Cor. 11:2).

19. Christ sang in His church prior to Pentecost (Mark 14:26; in fulfillment of Psalm 22:22; see Heb. 2:12).

20. There is NO Scripture anywhere to indicate that the church began at Pentecost.

[Gospel Checker]

That's a new one. Apparently this guy doesn't even know what the church is.

[CALady]

That's a new one. Apparently this guy doesn't even know what the church is.

Or maybe he does.

[Constantine the Great]

That's a new one. Apparently this guy doesn't even know what the church is.


What do you say the Church is?

[CALady]

Which raises a question. Are the faithful Hebrews who were sanctified by the Law and lived prior to Christ's sacrifice "saved"?

I think they are.

[FoxGranadaChuck]

First let me say I do not know this person nor do I know anyone who does. I do not claim to agree nor disagree with what the author has written but I find it an interesting topic that I think others may enjoy participating in discussion in.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
by Pastor Greg Wilson

1. The literal meaning of the word church (ekklesia). From ek, meaning "out" and kaleo meaning "to call." Jesus called out His disciples from the disciples of John early in His public ministry, forming the church or called-out assembly (John 1:35-51).

2. Christ said He would leave His “house” on earth when He went on a “far journey” (ascended back unto heaven) (Mark 13: 31-37). The church is identified as His “house” (Heb. 3:1-6; 1 Tim. 3:15; Eph. 2:20,21; 1 Cor. 3:16). Christ ascended prior to Pentecost (Mark 16:19; Acts 1:9-11).

3. Christ spoke of His disciples as a “flock” prior to Pentecost (Luke 12:32; Matt. 26:31,32). The church is identified as the “flock” of God (Acts 20:28,29; 1 Pet. 5:2,3).

4. They preached the gospel prior to Pentecost (Mark 1:1; 3:14; Matt. 10:14; Luke 10:1-17).

5. They had Holy Spirit power prior to Pentecost (Matt. 10:5, 19,20).

6. They baptized prior to Pentecost (John 4:1,2).

7. They received the Lord’s Supper prior to Pentecost (Matt. 26:26; Luke 22:17-20; Mark 14:22-26).

8. They had an ordained ministry prior to Pentecost (Mark 3:14; cf. 1 Cor. 12:28).

9. They had church discipline prior to Pentecost (Matt. 18:15-17).

10. They had Christ as their “head” prior to Pentecost (John 13:14; cf. Eph. 1:22,23).

11. They had a membership of 120 prior to Pentecost (Acts 1:15; note, “names”).

12. They had a business meeting and elected officers prior to Pentecost (Acts 1:15-26).

13. They had a treasurer prior to Pentecost (John 13:29).

14. They “added” 3,000 on the day of Pentecost (Acts 2:41).

15. They had the “Great Commission” prior to Pentecost (Matt. 28:19,20).

16. Christ was “building” His church prior to Pentecost (Matt. 16:18).

17. They (“us”) had been in existence (“companied with us”) “from the baptism of John” (Acts 1:21,22).

18. The Bridegroom was with His Bride (the church) prior to Pentecost (John 3:29; cf. Eph. 5:22-33; 2 Cor. 11:2).

19. Christ sang in His church prior to Pentecost (Mark 14:26; in fulfillment of Psalm 22:22; see Heb. 2:12).

20. There is NO Scripture anywhere to indicate that the church began at Pentecost.


Pastor Wilson is right on the nose!!! :clap: :clap: :clap:

[Jíbaro]

The Church without the Holy Spirit is just an empty shell, a destitute orphan (John 14:17-18 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John%2014:17-18;&version=51;)), a helpless institution (John 14:16-17, 26, 15:26, 16:7 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John%2014:16-17,%2026,%2015:26,%2016:7;&version=49;)).

[Gospel Checker]

What do you say the Church is?


The church is the body of believers. It is one of three distict groups of people mentioned in scripture. (Jews, Gentiles, and the Church). Those who have believed in the gospel (1Cor.15:1-4) and are now indwelled by the Holy Spirit. What we know as christianity did not (could not) begin until after the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ. Christ had to ascend before He sent the Holy Spirit. This is the dispensation of grace and the gospel of salvation is that Christ died for our sins, according to the scriptures, was buried, and rose again the third day, according to the scriptures. All who hold to this faith are indwelled by the Holy Spirit and are part of the body.

[BobB]

The people are the church. Not a building! We are his people and he is our G-d.

[Jacob_Rising]

The church is the body of believers. It is one of three distict groups of people mentioned in scripture. (Jews, Gentiles, and the Church). Those who have believed in the gospel (1Cor.15:1-4) and are now indwelled by the Holy Spirit. What we know as christianity did not (could not) begin until after the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ. Christ had to ascend before He sent the Holy Spirit. This is the dispensation of grace and the gospel of salvation is that Christ died for our sins, according to the scriptures, was buried, and rose again the third day, according to the scriptures. All who hold to this faith are indwelled by the Holy Spirit and are part of the body.I'm pretty sure Constantine will assure you that the church was there before Jesus was born.

[cbut1]

That's a new one. Apparently this guy doesn't even know what the church is.



It looks to me like he discribed what the Church is in the first two points.

[cbut1]

Which raises a question. Are the faithful Hebrews who were sanctified by the Law and lived prior to Christ's sacrifice "saved"?

I think they are.



;)
Good question.

I know our Jewish friends will not agree nor see that they have ever needed to be ""saved"" but it does offer one the opportunity to explore doesn't it?

I want to follow this path a little later in the thread should it progress further but for now can we table this and see what else others bring up concerning the OP. :)

[cbut1]

Pastor Wilson is right on the nose!!! :clap: :clap: :clap:


I am glad you find it acceptable because I have not yet been able to deny any of the points he offers.

Also that is a great quote from our friend Constatine on your sigline. \/ :clap:

[cbut1]

The Church without the Holy Spirit is just an empty shell, a destitute orphan (John 14:17-18 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John%2014:17-18;&version=51;)), a helpless institution (John 14:16-17, 26, 15:26, 16:7 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John%2014:16-17,%2026,%2015:26,%2016:7;&version=49;)).

Jibaro could you please clarify what your post and comments mean. I've read the verses you offered but do not quite know in what manner you mean them to be understood.

[Warrior4God]

The Church of Christ is the body of Christ and the body of Christ began on the day of pentecost.

[CALady]

;)
Good question.

I know our Jewish friends will not agree nor see that they have ever needed to be ""saved"" but it does offer one the opportunity to explore doesn't it?

I want to follow this path a little later in the thread should it progress further but for now can we table this and see what else others bring up concerning the OP. :)

Which is why I put "saved" in quotes. But certainly, I don't want to derail your thread.

Intersting topic though.

Is the Church here equal to the body of believers?

[merryAtheist]

Granted, I don't have a dog in this fight, but I can't help pointing out that all the verses cited as evidence, in fact the whole new testament, were created long after this supposed Pentacost event. How is that evidence of anything other than mythic story-telling?

[DispensationalJim]

The Church of Christ is the body of Christ and the body of Christ began on the day of pentecost.

I believe if you'll check your Bible, Warrior, you will find that there is no mention of "the Church of Christ" at all, and the church as "the Body of Christ" is not mentioned at all until the Apostle Paul begins his ministry. That was well after Pentecost.

• Rom. 7:4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.
• 1Cor. 12:27 Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.
• Eph. 4:12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:

That is why many of us dispensationalists declare that there was a "believing remnant" --or church, as seen in Matt. 16:18 and 18:17; Acts 2:47;5:11, etc.-- composed of Jewish converts to "the gospel of the Kingdom" as preached by Jesus Himself and the twelve apostles and which became largely recognized at Pentescost.

After all, here were the apostle's orders from their leader:
• Matt. 10:5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not: 6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.

And we see that they kept that order in these verses:
• Acts 11:19 Now they which were scattered abroad upon the persecution that arose about Stephen travelled as far as Phenice, and Cyprus, and Antioch, preaching the word to none but unto the Jews only.
• Gal. 2:7 But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter; 8 (For he that wrought effectually in Peter to the apostleship of the circumcision, the same was mighty in me toward the Gentiles) 9 And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we should go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision.
• James 1:1 James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.
• 1Pet. 1:1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,

Then, there was "the Body of Christ" composed of the "believers" who placed their faith in "the gospel of the Grace of God" as taught by the Apostle of the Gentiles, Paul (after Acts 9).

[DispensationalJim]

Granted, I don't have a dog in this fight, but I can't help pointing out that all the verses cited as evidence, in fact the whole new testament, were created long after this supposed Pentacost event. How is that evidence of anything other than mythic story-telling?

Would you consider, merryAtheist, actually checking out the great volume of supporting documentation concerning the New Testament? The manuscript evidence for the books of the NT is quite well established. There are over 5,000 copies of the NT manuscripts in existence today, some less than three centuries from the "original" writings. Comparing that amazing historical evidence with the manuscript support for other ancient writings, we find the NT to stand head and shoulders above all of them.

From "The Prophecy Study Bible," we read that the book of Matthew was written in or around AD 50, less than 20 years after the resurrection. The approximate dates of the other NT books are listed in that Bible as:
Mark = AD 67
Luke = AD 60
John = AD 90
Acts = AD 62
Romans = AD 57
1Corinthians = AD 55
2Corinthians = AD 56
Galatians = AD 49
Ephesians= AD 61
Philippians = AD 62
Colossians = AD 61
1Thessalonians = AD 51
2Thessalonians = AD 51
1Timothy = AD 64
2Timothy = AD 67
Titus = AD 65
Philemon = AD 61
Hebrews = AD 68
James = AD 49
1Peter = AD 65
2Peter = AD 66
1John = AD 90
2John = AD 90
3John = AD 90
Jude = AD 68-75
The Revelation = AD 95

No doubt, there are other histories which show slightly different dates for some of the books, but even those which have others dates are still within a few years of those shown, which supports the contention that the NT was written shortly after the actual events-- certainly within the lifetime of the actual eye-witnesses.

[cbut1]

The Church of Christ is the body of Christ and the body of Christ began on the day of pentecost.

Can you offer verses that would be a counterpoint to the ones offered in the OP?

[cbut1]

Which is why I put "saved" in quotes. But certainly, I don't want to derail your thread.

Intersting topic though.

Is the Church here equal to the body of believers?

My understanding has always been that they are one and the same and have always been so. BUT not necessarily as most apply it today.

[Warrior4God]

Can you offer verses that would be a counterpoint to the ones offered in the OP?

The Greek word for “church” is ekklesia, and in Scripture it simply means a group of people called out for a purpose. In its 89 uses in the epistles written to Christians, it refers either to individual groups of Christian believers or to all Christians as a body.

1 Corinthians 10:32 lists the only three kinds of people in history, biblically speaking, and distinguishes this group of people from the other two groups: “Give none offence, neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the church of God” (KJV).

As per Ephesians 1:22 and 23, the “Church,” i.e., all Christians, is synonymous with the “Body of Christ” “And God placed all things under his [Jesus’] feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”

Virtually all Bible commentators agree with the above definitions, but not all agree upon when the Church began, that is, when the first people became “Christians.” OK, then we’d best look at what it takes to become a Christian, and Romans 10:9 is perhaps the key verse in that regard: “That if you confess with your mouth, ‘Jesus is Lord,’ and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”

That verse makes it clear that no one was “saved” by being “born again of incorruptible seed” (1 Pet. 1:23), that is, becoming a “Christian,” prior to the resurrection and subsequent ascension of Jesus Christ. Salvation has always been available ever since Adam’s sin necessitated it, but never until after Christ’s life, death, resurrection, and exaltation as “Lord” (Acts 2:37) did salvation consist of being “born again” of God’s spirit, receiving His “divine nature” (2 Pet. 1:4) and being “sealed with that holy spirit of promise” (Eph. 1:13).


It is clear that everyone who calls on the name of the Lord by confessing Jesus as Lord and believing that God raised him from the dead joins the ekklesia of those born again of God’s incorruptible seed and filled with the gift of holy spirit. It is also clear that the day of Pentecost in Acts 2 was the first time this happened. As such, it is the “birthday” of the Church, that is, its beginning.

[RayMan]

The Greek word for “church” is ekklesia, and in Scripture it simply means a group of people called out for a purpose. In its 89 uses in the epistles written to Christians, it refers either to individual groups of Christian believers or to all Christians as a body.

1 Corinthians 10:32 lists the only three kinds of people in history, biblically speaking, and distinguishes this group of people from the other two groups: “Give none offence, neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the church of God” (KJV).

As per Ephesians 1:22 and 23, the “Church,” i.e., all Christians, is synonymous with the “Body of Christ” “And God placed all things under his [Jesus’] feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”

Virtually all Bible commentators agree with the above definitions, but not all agree upon when the Church began, that is, when the first people became “Christians.” OK, then we’d best look at what it takes to become a Christian, and Romans 10:9 is perhaps the key verse in that regard: “That if you confess with your mouth, ‘Jesus is Lord,’ and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”

That verse makes it clear that no one was “saved” by being “born again of incorruptible seed” (1 Pet. 1:23), that is, becoming a “Christian,” prior to the resurrection and subsequent ascension of Jesus Christ. Salvation has always been available ever since Adam’s sin necessitated it, but never until after Christ’s life, death, resurrection, and exaltation as “Lord” (Acts 2:37) did salvation consist of being “born again” of God’s spirit, receiving His “divine nature” (2 Pet. 1:4) and being “sealed with that holy spirit of promise” (Eph. 1:13).


It is clear that everyone who calls on the name of the Lord by confessing Jesus as Lord and believing that God raised him from the dead joins the ekklesia of those born again of God’s incorruptible seed and filled with the gift of holy spirit. It is also clear that the day of Pentecost in Acts 2 was the first time this happened. As such, it is the “birthday” of the Church, that is, its beginning.


I have often wondered if the church was birthed in the upper room after the Resurrection when He breathed on them (somewhat like God breathing the breath of life into Adam in my opinion.) and said "Receive ye the Holy Ghost.

I know this idea opens the door to the infilling of the Holy Ghost as recorded in Acts 2 being viewed as an experience subsequent to the New Birth, a second work of grace as it were, but I have no problem with that. :cool:

Joh 20:19 Then the same day at evening, being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for fear of the Jews, came Jesus and stood in the midst, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.
Joh 20:20 And when he had so said, he showed unto them his hands and his side. Then were the disciples glad, when they saw the Lord.
Joh 20:21 Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you.

Joh 20:22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:

Joh 20:23 Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.
Joh 20:24 But Thomas, one of the twelve, called Didymus, was not with them when Jesus came.
Joh 20:25 The other disciples therefore said unto him, We have seen the Lord. But he said unto them, Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and thrust my hand into his side, I will not believe.

Joh 20:26 And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace, be unto you.
Joh 20:27 Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.
Joh 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.
Joh 20:29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.
Joh 20:30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
Joh 20:31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

[Warrior4God]

I have often wondered if the church was birthed in the upper room after the Resurrection when He breathed on them (somewhat like God breathing the breath of life into Adam in my opinion.) and said "Receive ye the Holy Ghost.

I know this idea opens the door to the infilling of the Holy Ghost as recorded in Acts 2 being viewed as an experience subsequent to the New Birth, a second work of grace as it were, but I have no problem with that. :cool:

Joh 20:19 Then the same day at evening, being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for fear of the Jews, came Jesus and stood in the midst, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.
Joh 20:20 And when he had so said, he showed unto them his hands and his side. Then were the disciples glad, when they saw the Lord.
Joh 20:21 Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you.

Joh 20:22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:

Joh 20:23 Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.
Joh 20:24 But Thomas, one of the twelve, called Didymus, was not with them when Jesus came.
Joh 20:25 The other disciples therefore said unto him, We have seen the Lord. But he said unto them, Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and thrust my hand into his side, I will not believe.

Joh 20:26 And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace, be unto you.
Joh 20:27 Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.
Joh 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.
Joh 20:29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.
Joh 20:30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
Joh 20:31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

Do you think when Jesus breathed on them and told the to recieve the Holy Ghost ,that he was teaching and preparing them for what was to come?(just a thought)

[Jacob_Rising]

Which raises a question. Are the faithful Hebrews who were sanctified by the Law and lived prior to Christ's sacrifice "saved"?

I think they are.I think they are all saved provided that they loved mercy, did justly and walked humbly.

The question would rather be,-- Were all of them brought out of shoel?

I think just a chosen few were releasesed, and they were seen by many witnesses in Jerusalem but I think it was only the few overcomers who were changed into a different being, while many still wait.

[RayMan]

Do you think when Jesus breathed on them and told the to recieve the Holy Ghost ,that he was teaching and preparing them for what was to come?(just a thought)

I am not prepared to be dogmatic (or even pup-matic) on whether they were born again from above in the upper room or whether Jesus was employing symbology in what He said and did there.

Years ago I heard a fellow teaching on this passage use the phrase:

"They received some sort of an anointing at this time," which seemed a bit vague to me.

My thought is that, it is after the Resurrecton, they are addressing Him as Lord in the passage and they are told to receive the Holy Ghost. On the day of Pentecost they are endued with power as Luke records the Lord saying in Luke 24.

Again, JMO, but this could shine some light onto the argument between some non-charismatics and some Pentecostal folk as concerns whether believers receive the Holy Ghost and become children of God BEFORE they are filled with the Spirit with the "evidence" (I never really like that term but people are familiar with it) of speaking in tongues.

I could be totally off the mark, or I might have something here.

[jmacvols]

First let me say I do not know this person nor do I know anyone who does. I do not claim to agree nor disagree with what the author has written but I find it an interesting topic that I think others may enjoy participating in discussion in.



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by Pastor Greg Wilson

1. The literal meaning of the word church (ekklesia). From ek, meaning "out" and kaleo meaning "to call." Jesus called out His disciples from the disciples of John early in His public ministry, forming the church or called-out assembly (John 1:35-51).

2. Christ said He would leave His “house” on earth when He went on a “far journey” (ascended back unto heaven) (Mark 13: 31-37). The church is identified as His “house” (Heb. 3:1-6; 1 Tim. 3:15; Eph. 2:20,21; 1 Cor. 3:16). Christ ascended prior to Pentecost (Mark 16:19; Acts 1:9-11).

3. Christ spoke of His disciples as a “flock” prior to Pentecost (Luke 12:32; Matt. 26:31,32). The church is identified as the “flock” of God (Acts 20:28,29; 1 Pet. 5:2,3).

4. They preached the gospel prior to Pentecost (Mark 1:1; 3:14; Matt. 10:14; Luke 10:1-17).

5. They had Holy Spirit power prior to Pentecost (Matt. 10:5, 19,20).

6. They baptized prior to Pentecost (John 4:1,2).

7. They received the Lord’s Supper prior to Pentecost (Matt. 26:26; Luke 22:17-20; Mark 14:22-26).

8. They had an ordained ministry prior to Pentecost (Mark 3:14; cf. 1 Cor. 12:28).

9. They had church discipline prior to Pentecost (Matt. 18:15-17).

10. They had Christ as their “head” prior to Pentecost (John 13:14; cf. Eph. 1:22,23).

11. They had a membership of 120 prior to Pentecost (Acts 1:15; note, “names”).

12. They had a business meeting and elected officers prior to Pentecost (Acts 1:15-26).

13. They had a treasurer prior to Pentecost (John 13:29).

14. They “added” 3,000 on the day of Pentecost (Acts 2:41).

15. They had the “Great Commission” prior to Pentecost (Matt. 28:19,20).

16. Christ was “building” His church prior to Pentecost (Matt. 16:18).

17. They (“us”) had been in existence (“companied with us”) “from the baptism of John” (Acts 1:21,22).

18. The Bridegroom was with His Bride (the church) prior to Pentecost (John 3:29; cf. Eph. 5:22-33; 2 Cor. 11:2).

19. Christ sang in His church prior to Pentecost (Mark 14:26; in fulfillment of Psalm 22:22; see Heb. 2:12).

20. There is NO Scripture anywhere to indicate that the church began at Pentecost.


--Isaiah prophecied that the Lord's House (the church/house of God-1 Tim 3:15) would begin at Zion (Jerusalem), Isa 2:1-4.
--Lk 24:47, Jesus said repentance & remission of sins would be preached beginning at Jerusalem.
--In Mark 9:1 Jesus said the kingdom of God (the church, Mt 16:18,19) would come with "power".
--Acts 1:4, the apostles were told to wait in Jerusalem for the promise of the Father, (the Holy Spirit)
--In Acts 1:8-that "power" would come after the Holy Ghost is come upon you.
--Acts 2:4, in Jerusalem, the Holy Ghost came upon them with "power" on Pentecost
--Therefore the church began in Jerusalem with the apostles when the "power" came with the Holy SPirit.

[jmacvols]

I believe if you'll check your Bible, Warrior, you will find that there is no mention of "the Church of Christ" at all,

Rom 16:16, "The churches of Christ salute you." It is a biblical term that is found in the bible, it is a term that simply shows ownership, i.e., the church belongs to Christ, it's Christ's church.


and the church as "the Body of Christ" is not mentioned at all until the Apostle Paul begins his ministry. That was well after Pentecost.


Acts 2:47, before Paul was even a Christian, the church existed, else what were they added to? This verse is the first time the church is said to exist. Prior to this in Matt, Mark, Luke & John, the church/kingdom is spoken of in future tense. After Acts 2, the church/kingdom is spoken of in present or past tense.

[DispensationalJim]

Rom 16:16, "The churches of Christ salute you." It is a biblical term that is found in the bible, it is a term that simply shows ownership, i.e., the church belongs to Christ, it's Christ's church.




Acts 2:47, before Paul was even a Christian, the church existed, else what were they added to? This verse is the first time the church is said to exist. Prior to this in Matt, Mark, Luke & John, the church/kingdom is spoken of in future tense. After Acts 2, the church/kingdom is spoken of in present or past tense.

I stand corrected, Jmac. I am right that "the church of Christ" is NEVER mentioned, but one time, "the CHURCHES of Christ" is mentioned. Please excuse the oversight.

As I have said repeatedly, there was a Jewish remnant that was saved through faith in "the gospel of the kingdom" prior to the entrance of the apostle Paul onto the scene.

The phrase "the gospel of the kingdom" is never again used after Paul begins his ministry.

The term "kingdom of God" is used all through the epistles, and obviously any believer in Christ is "in God's kingdom."

Sorry, Jmac, but "the kingdom" is spoken of several times by Paul in the future sense.
• 1Cor. 15:24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
• 2Tim. 4:1 ¶ I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;
• 2Tim. 4:18 And the Lord shall deliver me from every evil work, and will preserve me unto his heavenly kingdom: to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

But the term "body of Christ" is only used by Paul, and always in connection with the "gospel of the grace of God," so that clearly makes the "Body of Christ" distinct and separate from "the gospel of the kingdom" which the twelve preached.

IMO, that explains why there is so much disagreement on when the church started. It all depends on which "church" is being spoken of; the church of the gospel of the kingdom or the church of the gospel of the grace of God..

[Ron Jon]

I think if we are going to be honest and accurate here, it should be noted that what is being referred to as "church" or "churches" are local assemblies of Christian believers. These groups or assemblies belong to Christ and God.

[cbut1]

The Greek word for “church” is ekklesia, and in Scripture it simply means a group of people called out for a purpose. In its 89 uses in the epistles written to Christians, it refers either to individual groups of Christian believers or to all Christians as a body.

1 Corinthians 10:32 lists the only three kinds of people in history, biblically speaking, and distinguishes this group of people from the other two groups: “Give none offence, neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the church of God” (KJV).

As per Ephesians 1:22 and 23, the “Church,” i.e., all Christians, is synonymous with the “Body of Christ” “And God placed all things under his [Jesus’] feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”

Virtually all Bible commentators agree with the above definitions, but not all agree upon when the Church began, that is, when the first people became “Christians.” OK, then we’d best look at what it takes to become a Christian, and Romans 10:9 is perhaps the key verse in that regard: “That if you confess with your mouth, ‘Jesus is Lord,’ and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”

That verse makes it clear that no one was “saved” by being “born again of incorruptible seed” (1 Pet. 1:23), that is, becoming a “Christian,” prior to the resurrection and subsequent ascension of Jesus Christ. Salvation has always been available ever since Adam’s sin necessitated it, but never until after Christ’s life, death, resurrection, and exaltation as “Lord” (Acts 2:37) did salvation consist of being “born again” of God’s spirit, receiving His “divine nature” (2 Pet. 1:4) and being “sealed with that holy spirit of promise” (Eph. 1:13).


It is clear that everyone who calls on the name of the Lord by confessing Jesus as Lord and believing that God raised him from the dead joins the ekklesia of those born again of God’s incorruptible seed and filled with the gift of holy spirit. It is also clear that the day of Pentecost in Acts 2 was the first time this happened. As such, it is the “birthday” of the Church, that is, its beginning.


I remind everyone that while Christ was here He had the Holy Spirit with Him and He is the foundation of the Church and He called out 12 disciples of the many that were following John to be the first additions to His Church.

1 Christ + 1 Holy Spirit + 12 Apostles + 120 others that assembled together in the room (this is all before the day of Pentecost) + 3000 were ADDED that day (of Pentecost).

[cbut1]

I think if we are going to be honest and accurate here, it should be noted that what is being referred to as "church" or "churches" are local assemblies of Christian believers. These groups or assemblies belong to Christ and God.


I agree

[merryAtheist]

Would you consider, merryAtheist, actually checking out the great volume of supporting documentation concerning the New Testament? The manuscript evidence for the books of the NT is quite well established. There are over 5,000 copies of the NT manuscripts in existence today, some less than three centuries from the "original" writings.

All of which supports my point.

20 years is plenty of time for myth-making to occur. Ever heard of cargo-cults?

Further, it is pretty clear that early Christianity first existed solely as a cult within Judaism. The first "Christians" were really just another messianic jewish group. It wasn't until they developed the idea that Jesus was divine that they were kicked out of the synagogues and had to form their own belief community. That was the real birth of Christianity.

[DispensationalJim]

All of which supports my point.

20 years is plenty of time for myth-making to occur. Ever heard of cargo-cults?

Further, it is pretty clear that early Christianity first existed solely as a cult within Judaism. The first "Christians" were really just another messianic jewish group. It wasn't until they developed the idea that Jesus was divine that they were kicked out of the synagogues and had to form their own belief community. That was the real birth of Christianity.

Your analogy is partly correct.

As I mentioned earlier, we dispensationalists believe that Paul initiated the "church, THE BODY OF CHRIST" (as opposed to the "kingdom church" of the apostles) after his conversion FROM JUDAISM in Acts 9 about 2 years after the resurrection.

The apostles and disciples had a big problem with the idea of Saul (whose named was eventually changed to Paul) becoming a "true believer" after having been a leader of "terrorist" groups which went around rounding up followers of Christ and having them imprisoned and even killed.

Without the revelations given to Paul by Jesus Himself (Gal. 1:12 For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ. ), we believe that Christianity as it exists today would not have come to pass. Paul is the one who taught us all that "Christ died for our sins." A book written by the well known author A. N. Wilson entitled "Paul, the Mind of the Apostle" (1997, W. W. Norton & Co.) comes up with the same conclusions.

[RayMan]

Your analogy is partly correct.

As I mentioned earlier, we dispensationalists believe that Paul initiated the "church, THE BODY OF CHRIST" (as opposed to the "kingdom church" of the apostles) after his conversion FROM JUDAISM in Acts 9 about 2 years after the resurrection.

Hey Jim,
That reminds me, are you a fan of Bullinger and/or Charles Welch? I have really been blessed with their material over the past couple of years. Don't agree with them on everything (heck, I don't agree with me on everything!) but very much enjoy their work - and attitude - especially Brother Welch.

[Warrior4God]

Hey Jim,
That reminds me, are you a fan of Bullinger and/or Charles Welch? I have really been blessed with their material over the past couple of years. Don't agree with them on everything (heck, I don't agree with me on everything!) but very much enjoy their work - and attitude - especially Brother Welch.

E.W. Bullinger I have read alot of.

I use his companion Bible alot

Witness of the stars and Number in scripture are amazing works

[RayMan]

E.W. Bullinger I have read alot of.

I use his companion Bible alot

Witness of the stars and Number in scripture are amazing works

Lots of good stuff in the Companion Bible. Welch was a student and colleague of his who lived until the late '60s or early '70s. Many of his audio messages from the '50s are available online as mp3s.


http://www.charleswelch.net/audios.htm

[Warrior4God]

Lots of good stuff in the Companion Bible. Welch was a student and colleague of his who lived until the late '60s or early '70s. Many of his audio messages from the '50s are available online as mp3s.


http://www.charleswelch.net/audios.htm

Thankyou Ray I will listen to these

By the way how do you feel about the 4 crucified with Jesus that Bullinger lays out in his companion bible?

[RayMan]

Thankyou Ray I will listen to these

By the way how do you feel about the 4 crucified with Jesus that Bullinger lays out in his companion bible?

I haven't made up my mind on that yet. It would sure mess up all those churches that have a trinity of crosses on their front lawns. ;)

BTW - Welch's Resurrection series is very thought provoking.

[cbut1]

I haven't made up my mind on that yet. It would sure mess up all those churches that have a trinity of crosses on their front lawns. ;)

BTW - Welch's Resurrection series is very thought provoking.


I find Christs actual resurrection to be thought provoking enough.

[cbut1]

Your analogy is partly correct.

As I mentioned earlier, we dispensationalists believe that Paul initiated the "church, THE BODY OF CHRIST" (as opposed to the "kingdom church" of the apostles) after his conversion FROM JUDAISM in Acts 9 about 2 years after the resurrection.

The apostles and disciples had a big problem with the idea of Saul (whose named was eventually changed to Paul) becoming a "true believer" after having been a leader of "terrorist" groups which went around rounding up followers of Christ and having them imprisoned and even killed.

Without the revelations given to Paul by Jesus Himself (Gal. 1:12 For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ. ), we believe that Christianity as it exists today would not have come to pass. Paul is the one who taught us all that "Christ died for our sins." A book written by the well known author A. N. Wilson entitled "Paul, the Mind of the Apostle" (1997, W. W. Norton & Co.) comes up with the same conclusions.


All of the wrong conclusions if I was to base it upon your reference of it.

There is no such thing as two seperate Kingdoms as it appears to me your inference indicates.

[Warrior4God]

I find Christs actual resurrection to be thought provoking enough.

Do you not think on the hope?

[cbut1]

Do you not think on the hope?

Explain what you mean by that? please

[DispensationalJim]

Hey Jim,
That reminds me, are you a fan of Bullinger and/or Charles Welch? I have really been blessed with their material over the past couple of years. Don't agree with them on everything (heck, I don't agree with me on everything!) but very much enjoy their work - and attitude - especially Brother Welch.

As you say, I don't agree with everything Bullinger taught, either, but he has been considered by most to be a devout dispensationalist and "rightly divider."

I also think he was a Trinitarian, but maybe Warrior can clear that up.

I have his "Lexicon" and probably another book or two of his. I have some pastor-friends who are really into his book on numerology and one who really loved his book on the stars.

I have heard of Brother Welch, but have not read anything of his that I recall.

[DispensationalJim]

All of the wrong conclusions if I was to base it upon your reference of it.

There is no such thing as two seperate Kingdoms as it appears to me your inference indicates.

Sorry if you took my comments as simply an inference, since I really do believe there will be two kingdoms (at least until the final all-encompassing kingdom becomes a reality). I have posted many verses to support that, but its too late for that tonight.

Maybe you didn't notice, but I also believe there were at least TWO DISTINCT AND SEPARATE GOSPELS (and they are still around today!). I'll explain later.

[Warrior4God]

Explain what you mean by that? please

The hope of Christ return and the ressurection

1Pe 1:13 Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ;

1Pe 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

Heb 6:19 Which hope we have as an anchor of the soul, both sure and stedfast, and which entereth into that within the veil;


Heb 3:6 But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.

[cbut1]

The hope of Christ return and the ressurection

1Pe 1:13 Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ;

1Pe 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

Heb 6:19 Which hope we have as an anchor of the soul, both sure and stedfast, and which entereth into that within the veil;


Heb 3:6 But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.



I responded to Rayman's post # 39 with my post on # 40 and then you asked about the hope in # 42 in which caused me to ask what you ment in post # 43 leading us both to this point and honestly I don't know what we are discussing now. ;)

:shhh: Don't tell anyone but I aint big on being the brite one in my family. :mrgreen:

[cbut1]

Sorry if you took my comments as simply an inference, since I really do believe there will be two kingdoms (at least until the final all-encompassing kingdom becomes a reality). I have posted many verses to support that, but its too late for that tonight.

Maybe you didn't notice, but I also believe there were at least TWO DISTINCT AND SEPARATE GOSPELS (and they are still around today!). I'll explain later.


I did notice but I didn't want to appear too be putting words in your mouth. :D

I believe there is one Gospel and it is a Gospel of Hope and Faith and it can be found in the OT and the NT.

[RayMan]

I responded to Rayman's post # 39 with my post on # 40 and then you asked about the hope in # 42 in which caused me to ask what you ment in post # 43 leading us both to this point and honestly I don't know what we are discussing now. ;)

:shhh: Don't tell anyone but I aint big on being the brite one in my family. :mrgreen:

I'm thinking Warrior is referring to the fact that most folk with the dispensational viewpoint consider the Second Coming and subsequent Resurrection of the dead in Christ as the hope of the church in the same way other folk look forward to a pre-trib Rapture.

Just my best guess. Back in the day when I was with the Southern Baptists we considered the hope of the church to be a pre-trib Rapture and Hal Lindsey was our prophet. :mrgreen:

[RayMan]

I find Christs actual resurrection to be thought provoking enough.

It is indeed. The fact that he will be raising me from the dead at some time in the future is the icing on the cake. The hope of the Resurrection is the hope of the Church.

[cbut1]

I'm thinking Warrior is referring to the fact that most folk with the dispensational viewpoint consider the Second Coming and subsequent Resurrection of the dead in Christ as the hope of the church in the same way other folk look forward to a pre-trib Rapture.

Just my best guess. Back in the day when I was with the Southern Baptists we considered the hope of the church to be a pre-trib Rapture and Hal Lindsey was our prophet. :mrgreen:


I agree the that sharing in Christs resurrection (the first resurrection) is a hope that fills my heart. BTW it is after the Tribulation.

[RayMan]

I agree the that sharing in Christs resurrection (the first resurrection) is a hope that fills my heart. BTW it is after the Tribulation.

Re: "after the Tribulation." Didn't meant to leave the impression that I currently believe in pre-trib Rapture. I believe the Second Coming IS the Second Coming not the Third with a secret Rapture coming first and that the Resurrection occurs at that time.

[Warrior4God]

It is indeed. The fact that he will be raising me from the dead at some time in the future is the icing on the cake. The hope of the Resurrection is the hope of the Church.

I was trying to fin the resurection series by Charles Welch on the website you gave but can't fin it(am I blind)

[RayMan]

I was trying to fin the resurection series by Charles Welch on the website you gave but can't fin it(am I blind)


Here you go.
http://www.charleswelch.net/audios3.htm

[DispensationalJim]

Re: "after the Tribulation." Didn't meant to leave the impression that I currently believe in pre-trib Rapture. I believe the Second Coming IS the Second Coming not the Third with a secret Rapture coming first and that the Resurrection occurs at that time.

I am one of those who believe that the verses below must precede the Tribulation.

1Th. 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
1Th. 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
1Th. 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1Th. 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th. 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
1Th. 4:18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

===================================

We accept Paul's words regarding the wrath of God as they apply to the Body of Christ. We consider the "wrath" to be The Tribulation for Israel, so the Body of Christ will not have to go through it.

1Th. 1:10 And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.
1Th. 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ...

==================================

Since there is no indication that Jesus is actually "touching down" on the earth in the Rapture, He must necessarily be "coming back" to complete the "second portion" of the second coming later to fulfill the prophecies shown below which obviously have not yet occurred:

Zech. 14:1 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.
Zech. 14:2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
Zech. 14:3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
Zech. 14:4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
Zech. 14:5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.
Zech. 14:6 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark:
Zech. 14:7 But it shall be one day which shall be known to the LORD, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light.
Zech. 14:8 And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.
Zech. 14:9 And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.

==============================

We would all agree, I think, that the First coming of the Christ lasted about 33 years, so why would His Second coming have to be a short event?

In our understanding, the Rapture of the Body of Christ will be followed by the Great Tribulation (7 years) and THEN Christ returns to place Satan in the pit and set up His KINGDOM (the thousand year reign/millenium) which also is FOR ISRAEL, not for the Body of Christ.

[DispensationalJim]

Here you go.
http://www.charleswelch.net/audios3.htm

Thank you so much for the web site.

I have listened to a few "messages, and find him to be a strong dispensationalist. I'm sure there are a few areas with which I would disagree, but he is fascinating to listen to.

I also found a web site for Bullinger which you might find interesting:

http://www.geocities.com/thatblessedhope/plin9k

I would encourage Warrior to check it out, also.

[cbut1]

Interesting how yall are passing notes in class but are failing to address the info in the OP.

[RayMan]

Interesting how yall are passing notes in class but are failing to address the info in the OP.


:redface::redface:

[jmacvols]

I stand corrected, Jmac. I am right that "the church of Christ" is NEVER mentioned, but one time, "the CHURCHES of Christ" is mentioned. Please excuse the oversight.

As I have said repeatedly, there was a Jewish remnant that was saved through faith in "the gospel of the kingdom" prior to the entrance of the apostle Paul onto the scene.

The phrase "the gospel of the kingdom" is never again used after Paul begins his ministry.

There has nover been but one gospel, regardless of the word or phrased used to describe it. Peter preached this gospel in Acts 2:22-38, the death and rsurrection of Christ. If Paul preached anything other than what Peter did here, Paul preached a false gospel.

The term "kingdom of God" is used all through the epistles, and obviously any believer in Christ is "in God's kingdom."

God's kingdom is the church.

Sorry, Jmac, but "the kingdom" is spoken of several times by Paul in the future sense.
• 1Cor. 15:24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
• 2Tim. 4:1 ¶ I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;
• 2Tim. 4:18 And the Lord shall deliver me from every evil work, and will preserve me unto his heavenly kingdom: to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

Col 1:13 Paul said he, along with those Colossians, were in the kingdom. How could they be in the kingdom if it were still in the future? 1 COr 15:24 for example, Paul is speaking about the future coming of Christ, he is not talking about the kingdom coming in the future. In the future when Christ returns, the kingdom (church), which exist now, will be delivered up to Him.

But the term "body of Christ" is only used by Paul, and always in connection with the "gospel of the grace of God," so that clearly makes the "Body of Christ" distinct and separate from "the gospel of the kingdom" which the twelve preached.

The "body of Christ" is the church. The gospel of the kingdom is the gospel of the church.


IMO, that explains why there is so much disagreement on when the church started. It all depends on which "church" is being spoken of; the church of the gospel of the kingdom or the church of the gospel of the grace of God..

There has been but one church (body) with one gospel, the bible is plain on that. Never has been multiple churches with multiple gospels.

[RayMan]

I have often wondered if the church was birthed in the upper room after the Resurrection when He breathed on them (somewhat like God breathing the breath of life into Adam in my opinion.) and said "Receive ye the Holy Ghost.

I know this idea opens the door to the infilling of the Holy Ghost as recorded in Acts 2 being viewed as an experience subsequent to the New Birth, a second work of grace as it were, but I have no problem with that. :cool:

Joh 20:19 Then the same day at evening, being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for fear of the Jews, came Jesus and stood in the midst, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.
Joh 20:20 And when he had so said, he showed unto them his hands and his side. Then were the disciples glad, when they saw the Lord.
Joh 20:21 Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you.

Joh 20:22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:

Joh 20:23 Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.
Joh 20:24 But Thomas, one of the twelve, called Didymus, was not with them when Jesus came.
Joh 20:25 The other disciples therefore said unto him, We have seen the Lord. But he said unto them, Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and thrust my hand into his side, I will not believe.

Joh 20:26 And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace, be unto you.
Joh 20:27 Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.
Joh 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.
Joh 20:29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.
Joh 20:30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
Joh 20:31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

bump

[RayMan]

I am not prepared to be dogmatic (or even pup-matic) on whether they were born again from above in the upper room or whether Jesus was employing symbology in what He said and did there.

Years ago I heard a fellow teaching on this passage use the phrase:

"They received some sort of an anointing at this time," which seemed a bit vague to me.

My thought is that, it is after the Resurrecton, they are addressing Him as Lord in the passage and they are told to receive the Holy Ghost. On the day of Pentecost they are endued with power as Luke records the Lord saying in Luke 24.

Again, JMO, but this could shine some light onto the argument between some non-charismatics and some Pentecostal folk as concerns whether believers receive the Holy Ghost and become children of God BEFORE they are filled with the Spirit with the "evidence" (I never really like that term but people are familiar with it) of speaking in tongues.

I could be totally off the mark, or I might have something here.

bump

[MobyMule]

bump

I would agree with you rayman. A bump is sometimes necessary :)

[RayMan]

I would agree with you rayman. A bump is sometimes necessary :)

Yeah. I want to get a little buzz going on this. :cool:

[Semi-Sweet]

By Jesus' death on the cross, he did not open the way into heaven. The Tabernacle of Israel was a type of spiritual things to come. The writer of Hebrews observed that "the priests go continually into the outer tent, performing their ritual duties; but into the second only the high priest goes, and he but once a year, and not without taking blood which he offers for himself and for the errors of the people. By this the Holy Spirit indicates that the way into the sanctuary is not yet opened as long as the outer tent is still standing [which is symbolic for the present age] . . .the then-present age, the 'last days' of the former covenant. . . .But when Christ appeared as a high priest of the good things that have come, then through the greater and more perfect tent [not made with hands, that is, not of this creation] he entered once for all into the Holy Place, taking not the blood of goats and calves but His own blood, thus securing an eternal redemption" Hebrews 9:6-12. Eternal redemption had not been secured on the cross.

In His ascension, He took His blood into the Holy Place in heaven "who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without blemish to God. . ." 9:13-14. Continuing, "Therefore He is the mediator of a new covenant, so that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance, since a death has occurred which redeems them from the transgressions under the first covenant." Then and there, in presenting his sacrifice to the Father, Jesus gained redemption [forgiveness] for Israel, thus opening the way into heaven for them. Please read the text on to Verse 24: "For Christ has entered, not into a sanctuary made with hands, a copy of the true one, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God on our behalf. . .But as it is, he has appeared once for all at the end of the age to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself."

How could there have been a 'body of Christ' [church] before Christ's atoning blood purchased it?

[cbut1]

Sorry if you took my comments as simply an inference, since I really do believe there will be two kingdoms (at least until the final all-encompassing kingdom becomes a reality). I have posted many verses to support that, but its too late for that tonight.

Maybe you didn't notice, but I also believe there were at least TWO DISTINCT AND SEPARATE GOSPELS (and they are still around today!). I'll explain later.

You know there are 150 verses in the NT only, that references the KINGDOM (singular not plural) I will highlight a few.


Mat 4:23 And Jesus went about in all Galilee, teaching in their synagogues, and preaching the gospel of the kingdom, and healing all manner of disease and all manner of sickness among the people.

Mat 13:11 And he answered and said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.

Luk 12:32 Fear not, little flock; for it is your Father's good pleasure to give you the kingdom.

Luk 13:18 He said therefore, Unto what is the kingdom of God like? and whereunto shall I liken it?

Act 1:3 to whom he also showed himself alive after his passion by many proofs, appearing unto them by the space of forty days, and speaking the things concerning the kingdom of God:

Act 8:12 But when they believed Philip preaching good tidings concerning the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.

Act 14:22 confirming the souls of the disciples, exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that through many tribulations we must enter into the kingdom of God.

1Co 6:9 Or know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with men,

1Co 15:24 Then cometh the end, when he shall deliver up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have abolished all rule and all authority and power.

Eph 5:5 For this ye know of a surety, that no fornicator, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God.

2Ti 4:18 The Lord will deliver me from every evil work, and will save me unto his heavenly kingdom: to whom be the glory forever and ever. Amen.

Jas 2:5 Hearken, my beloved brethren; did not God choose them that are poor as to the world to be rich in faith, and heirs of the kingdom which he promised to them that love him?

Rev 12:10 And I heard a great voice in heaven, saying, Now is come the salvation, and the power, and the kingdom of our God, and the authority of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, who accuseth them before our God day and night.


You know Jim I cannot find one verse that speaks of Kingdoms out of all 150 references (albeit some are refering to kingdom of Man or the beast.) all of them speak in the singular tense.

[cbut1]

Warrior4God;21314091]The Greek word for “church” is ekklesia, and in Scripture it simply means a group of people called out for a purpose. In its 89 uses in the epistles written to Christians, it refers either to individual groups of Christian believers or to all Christians as a body.

If I am not mistaken that was briefly covered in the OP.


1 Corinthians 10:32 lists the only three kinds of people in history, biblically speaking, and distinguishes this group of people from the other two groups: “Give none offence, neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the church of God” (KJV).

Oh you mean the verse that goes into context with these:

1Co 10:23 All things are lawful; but not all things are expedient. All things are lawful; but not all things edify.

1Co 10:24 Let no man seek his own, but each his neighbor's good.

Kinda like the love they neighbor as thyself theme.


As per Ephesians 1:22 and 23, the “Church,” i.e., all Christians, is synonymous with the “Body of Christ” “And God placed all things under his [Jesus’] feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”

Wouldn't one who was the head of something also be the one who started it? Christ raised from the Baptismal waters and then shortly after told some meager fisherman to "come follow me I'll make you fishers of men". Christ first and followers next (a Church)


Virtually all Bible commentators agree with the above definitions, but not all agree upon when the Church began, that is, when the first people became “Christians.” OK, then we’d best look at what it takes to become a Christian, and Romans 10:9 is perhaps the key verse in that regard: “That if you confess with your mouth, ‘Jesus is Lord,’ and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”


I will quote myself below to help clear this up more difinitively.
http://forums.hannity.com/showpost.php?p=10942781&postcount=53

cbut1

From Strongs
G5546
Χριστιανός
Christianos
khris-tee-an-os'
From G5547; a Christian, that is, follower of Christ: - Christian.


Act 11:26 and when he had found him, he brought him unto Antioch. And it came to pass, that even for a whole year they were gathered together with the church, and taught much people, and that the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch.


The disciples were called Christians, those who followed Christ in all things;

From Strongs
G3101
μαθητής
mathētēs
math-ay-tes'
From G3129; a learner, that is, pupil: - disciple.



Mat 10:32 Every one therefore who shall confess me before men, him will I also confess before my Father who is in heaven.

Mat 10:33 But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father who is in heaven.

Mat 10:38 And he that doth not take his cross and follow after me, is not worthy of me.

Mat 10:39 He that findeth his life shall lose it; and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it.

Mat 16:24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man would come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

even if necessary even death.

Act 7:55 But he, being full of the Holy Spirit, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,

Act 7:56 and said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of Man standing on the right hand of God.

Act 7:57 But they cried out with a loud voice, and stopped their ears, and rushed upon him with one accord;

Act 7:58 and they cast him out of the city, and stoned him: and the witnesses laid down their garments at the feet of a young man named Saul.

Act 7:59 And they stoned Stephen, calling upon the Lord, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.

Act 7:60 And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep.

This does not include all who claim for themselves the name of a Christian.


Act 19:11 And God wrought special miracles by the hands of Paul:

Act 19:12 insomuch that unto the sick were carried away from his body handkerchiefs or aprons, and the evil spirits went out.

Act 19:13 But certain also of the strolling Jews, exorcists, took upon them to name over them that had the evil spirits the name of the Lord Jesus, saying, I adjure you by Jesus whom Paul preacheth.

Act 19:14 And there were seven sons of one Sceva, a Jew, a chief priest, who did this.

Act 19:15 And the evil spirit answered and said unto them, Jesus I know, and Paul I know, but who are ye?

Act 19:16 And the man in whom the evil spirit was leaped on them, and mastered both of them, and prevailed against them, so that they fled out of that house naked and wounded.

Act 19:17 And this became known to all, both Jews and Greeks, that dwelt at Ephesus; and fear fell upon them all, and the name of the Lord Jesus was magnified.

Act 19:18 Many also of them that had believed came, confessing, and declaring their deeds.

The demon knew Christ and even acknowledged Paul; but the ones proclaiming to be disciples and claiming power in His name the demon could see that they were imposters and powerless. In their pride and arrogance of claiming something that they weren't truely a part of comes their shame and humiliation. Christ makes a similar type of statement.


Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father who is in heaven.

Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy by thy name, and by thy name cast out demons, and by thy name do many mighty works?

Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Remember He said He would not deny those who did not deny Him. By mankinds own actions; even though with their mouths they claim Christ, with their actions they deny Him and are therfore not His disciple and further not a Christian.

To be a Christian one must confess Christ and humble themselves before Him and submit to His calling, being Baptised (as He was) into His Baptism placing one into His Body/Church that He established upon Himself while here on earth. When He ascended leaving the promise of His Spirit to be sent to them as the Church were His Spirit is to guide them unto all knowledge of Christ and His Kingdom. Keeping His commandments of {Love God with all your mind body and soul} and {your neighbor as yourself}. It is a whole life commitment not just a one time claim!



May God bless the Truth of these Words by convicting all who are seeking to truely know Your Son and live their life for Him without disception and selfishness.

Didn't those men who were called as Apostles before He was even crucified do all of the above?



That verse makes it clear that no one was “saved” by being “born again of incorruptible seed” (1 Pet. 1:23), that is, becoming a “Christian,” prior to the resurrection and subsequent ascension of Jesus Christ. Salvation has always been available ever since Adam’s sin necessitated it, but never until after Christ’s life, death, resurrection, and exaltation as “Lord” (Acts 2:37) did salvation consist of being “born again” of God’s spirit, receiving His “divine nature” (2 Pet. 1:4) and being “sealed with that holy spirit of promise” (Eph. 1:13).

Ok here is a born again thingy, saved and born again you equate to being the same? Accepting Christ as the Grace of God, as the Son of God, as the Author and finisher of our Faith, as the Savior of mankind, as the Sacrificial LAmb of God; is not the same as being Born Again. Those who use the term use it out of context look at; 1Pe 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to his great mercy begat us again unto a living hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, What he is saying is that we again have a living hope like Adam did before he sinned, it is the Hope that is Born again in this life not the man, until a very specific time yet to be made known to mankind.

[cbut1]

Warrior4God
It is clear that everyone who calls on the name of the Lord by confessing Jesus as Lord and believing that God raised him from the dead joins the ekklesia of those born again of God’s incorruptible seed and filled with the gift of holy spirit. It is also clear that the day of Pentecost in Acts 2 was the first time this happened. As such, it is the “birthday” of the Church, that is, its beginning.


No it is interpreted that way by those who wish to soften the order that God has established in His Son. Christ was here and He was sinless, He also in order to fulfill all righteousness was Baptised (being the Chief cornerstone) as He arose from His Baptism the Spirit came upon Him and Stayed with Him. Christ the Head of the Church filled with the Holy Spirit then gathered men unto Him, while with them He assembled with them many times for the purpose of guiding and instructing them, He also gave them limited power over illness and such. He then at the end told them He needed to go so that He could send the Holy Spirit back to them (see the Holy Spirit was with them in Him) after He arose from the grave He restated the same basic idea and then a few short days later it came to pass. On that day (the day of Pentecost) 3000 were Added to the Church that already existed.

G4369
προστίθημι

prostithēmi

pros-tith'-ay-mee

From G4314 and G5087; to place additionally, that is, lay beside, annex, repeat: - add, again, give more, increase, lay unto, proceed further, speak to any more.


Act 2:41 They then that received his word were baptized: and there were added unto them in that day about three thousand souls.

41 οι μεν ουν ασμενως αποδεξαμενοι τον λογον αυτου εβαπτισθησαν9 και προσετεθησαν τη ημερα εκεινη ψυχαι ωσει τρισχιλιαι


You cannot mess with the Greek language to make it say anything other than added, in addition to, an increase of, you cannot add to something that did not previously exist.

[DispensationalJim]

You know there are 150 verses in the NT only, that references the KINGDOM (singular not plural) I will highlight a few.

You know Jim I cannot find one verse that speaks of Kingdoms out of all 150 references (albeit some are refering to kingdom of Man or the beast.) all of them speak in the singular tense.

Then, cbut1, would you not differentiate between the different types or kinds of kingdoms?
1. The "kingdom of God" is found 69 times in the NT.
2. The "kingdom of Heaven" is found 32 times in the NT.
3. The word "kingdom" then must be by itself without a qualifier about 50 times in the NT.
4. The "kingdom of Israel" is found 3 times in the OT.
5. The word "kingdom" is found 342 times in the Bible, thus it is used 192 times in the OT.

I would liken that to the many different gospels in the NT.
1. The gospel of the kingdom
2. The gospel of the grace of God
3. The gospel of the circumcision
4. The gospel of the uncircumcision
5. The gospel of the Son
6. The gospel of Christ
7. "Another" gospel
8. The gospel of your salvation
9. The gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ
10. The gospel of the blessed God
11. The everlasting gospel
12. Paul's gospel

Would you acknowledge that they are not all the same gospel?

[Constantine the Great]

I'm pretty sure Constantine will assure you that the church was there before Jesus was born.

Are you sniffing glue again? How about you don't speak for me? In fact, since you like Hebrew writings and teachings so much, read my sig line and take it to heart.

[Constantine the Great]

The church is the body of believers. It is one of three distict groups of people mentioned in scripture. (Jews, Gentiles, and the Church). Those who have believed in the gospel (1Cor.15:1-4) and are now indwelled by the Holy Spirit. What we know as christianity did not (could not) begin until after the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ. Christ had to ascend before He sent the Holy Spirit. This is the dispensation of grace and the gospel of salvation is that Christ died for our sins, according to the scriptures, was buried, and rose again the third day, according to the scriptures. All who hold to this faith are indwelled by the Holy Spirit and are part of the body.

You don't think those believers existed before Christ's crucifixion and resurrection? The Apostles weren't believers? How about those who believed in Christ during His ministry on earth?

Ekklesia is Greek and means "to call out". This is what Christ did when chosing the Apostles and calling the faithful to God. He called them out and asked them to come forward to Him in faith. Christ was building His Church from teh time He called on His Apostles.

[cbut1]

Then, cbut1, would you not differentiate between the different types or kinds of kingdoms?
1. The "kingdom of God" is found 69 times in the NT.
2. The "kingdom of Heaven" is found 32 times in the NT.
3. The word "kingdom" then must be by itself without a qualifier about 50 times in the NT.
4. The "kingdom of Israel" is found 3 times in the OT.
5. The word "kingdom" is found 342 times in the Bible, thus it is used 192 times in the OT.

I would liken that to the many different gospels in the NT.
1. The gospel of the kingdom
2. The gospel of the grace of God
3. The gospel of the circumcision
4. The gospel of the uncircumcision
5. The gospel of the Son
6. The gospel of Christ
7. "Another" gospel
8. The gospel of your salvation
9. The gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ
10. The gospel of the blessed God
11. The everlasting gospel
12. Paul's gospel

Would you acknowledge that they are not all the same gospel?


God established one Kingdom (the garden of Eden) on this earth when He created it man gave that Kingdom over to Satan, Christ redeemed that Kingdom back from Satan. All things that were then will be again, it is One Kingdom that God, Christ, and the Apostles all speak about.

[cbut1]

You don't think those believers existed before Christ's crucifixion and resurrection? The Apostles weren't believers? How about those who believed in Christ during His ministry on earth?

Ekklesia is Greek and means "to call out". This is what Christ did when chosing the Apostles and calling the faithful to God. He called them out and asked them to come forward to Him in faith. Christ was building His Church from teh time He called on His Apostles.

Exactly and the thing that makes an assembly acceptable is its legitamacy, many times when we read of the ekklesia it is in the context of a lawfully called out assembly.

[cbut1]

Then, cbut1, would you not differentiate between the different types or kinds of kingdoms?
1. The "kingdom of God" is found 69 times in the NT.
2. The "kingdom of Heaven" is found 32 times in the NT.
3. The word "kingdom" then must be by itself without a qualifier about 50 times in the NT.
4. The "kingdom of Israel" is found 3 times in the OT.
5. The word "kingdom" is found 342 times in the Bible, thus it is used 192 times in the OT.

I would liken that to the many different gospels in the NT.
1. The gospel of the kingdom
2. The gospel of the grace of God
3. The gospel of the circumcision
4. The gospel of the uncircumcision
5. The gospel of the Son
6. The gospel of Christ
7. "Another" gospel
8. The gospel of your salvation
9. The gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ
10. The gospel of the blessed God
11. The everlasting gospel
12. Paul's gospel

Would you acknowledge that they are not all the same gospel?


Look Jim if Christ is striving for His Kingdom and God is striving for His Kingdom what happens when the followers of one Kingdom decide to change midstream? Wouldn't the efforts be more harmonious when they are striving for the same Kingdom? Remember Christ said I and the Father are one they did not contradict each other they did not undermine each other they had one goal and that was to take back / buy back the Kingdom that man sold to sin. From the OT to the NT the Gospel (good news) has always been the same, a redeemer would come and do away with the seperation / death man has follwed apart from God.

1Pe 1:10 Concerning which salvation the prophets sought and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:

1Pe 1:11 searching what time or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did point unto, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glories that should follow them.

1Pe 1:12 To whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto you, did they minister these things, which now have been announced unto you through them that preached the gospel unto you by the Holy Spirit sent forth from heaven; which things angel desire to look into.


The Prophets (OT) sought to know the Grace (Christ) / good news that was to come and it was revealed unto them that it was comming to you (NT). In the OT they looked forward to the good news that a redeemer was comming.

Heb 11:8 By faith Abraham, when he was called, obeyed to go out unto a place which he was to receive for an inheritance; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.

Heb 11:9 By faith he became a sojourner in the land of promise, as in a land not his own, dwelling in tents, with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise:

Heb 11:10 for he looked for the city which hath the foundations, whose builder and maker is God.



Heb 11:13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them and greeted them from afar, and having confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.


Abraham he had hope for the future he looked forward to a city who's builder and maker is God, don't you look forward to the same? I do

Check this out at the end of the chapter.


Heb 11:39 And these all, having had witness borne to them through their faith, received not the promise,

Heb 11:40 God having provided some better thing concerning us, that apart from us they should not be made perfect.


They all of faith (the OT people) hath not recieved the promise of the good news that apart from us (the NT people) they should not be made perfect. With the one same redeemer of mankind in the one same Kingdom of God.

[DispensationalJim]

Look Jim if Christ is striving for His Kingdom and God is striving for His Kingdom what happens when the followers of one Kingdom decide to change midstream? Wouldn't the efforts be more harmonious when they are striving for the same Kingdom? Remember Christ said I and the Father are one they did not contradict each other they did not undermine each other they had one goal and that was to take back / buy back the Kingdom that man sold to sin. From the OT to the NT the Gospel (good news) has always been the same, a redeemer would come and do away with the seperation / death man has follwed apart from God.

1Pe 1:10 Concerning which salvation the prophets sought and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:

1Pe 1:11 searching what time or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did point unto, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glories that should follow them.

1Pe 1:12 To whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto you, did they minister these things, which now have been announced unto you through them that preached the gospel unto you by the Holy Spirit sent forth from heaven; which things angel desire to look into.


The Prophets (OT) sought to know the Grace (Christ) / good news that was to come and it was revealed unto them that it was comming to you (NT). In the OT they looked forward to the good news that a redeemer was comming.

Heb 11:8 By faith Abraham, when he was called, obeyed to go out unto a place which he was to receive for an inheritance; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.

Heb 11:9 By faith he became a sojourner in the land of promise, as in a land not his own, dwelling in tents, with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise:

Heb 11:10 for he looked for the city which hath the foundations, whose builder and maker is God.



Heb 11:13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them and greeted them from afar, and having confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.


Abraham he had hope for the future he looked forward to a city who's builder and maker is God, don't you look forward to the same? I do

Check this out at the end of the chapter.


Heb 11:39 And these all, having had witness borne to them through their faith, received not the promise,

Heb 11:40 God having provided some better thing concerning us, that apart from us they should not be made perfect.


They all of faith (the OT people) hath not recieved the promise of the good news that apart from us (the NT people) they should not be made perfect. With the one same redeemer of mankind in the one same Kingdom of God.

So, cbut1, you reject dispensationalism completely? Do you believe THE kingdom is here now? Do you reject the idea of the Tribulation and the thousand year (millenial) reign?

[Warrior4God]

No it is interpreted that way by those who wish to soften the order that God has established in His Son. Christ was here and He was sinless, He also in order to fulfill all righteousness was Baptised (being the Chief cornerstone) as He arose from His Baptism the Spirit came upon Him and Stayed with Him. Christ the Head of the Church filled with the Holy Spirit then gathered men unto Him, while with them He assembled with them many times for the purpose of guiding and instructing them, He also gave them limited power over illness and such. He then at the end told them He needed to go so that He could send the Holy Spirit back to them (see the Holy Spirit was with them in Him) after He arose from the grave He restated the same basic idea and then a few short days later it came to pass. On that day (the day of Pentecost) 3000 were Added to the Church that already existed.

G4369
προστίθημι

prostithēmi

pros-tith'-ay-mee

From G4314 and G5087; to place additionally, that is, lay beside, annex, repeat: - add, again, give more, increase, lay unto, proceed further, speak to any more.


Act 2:41 They then that received his word were baptized: and there were added unto them in that day about three thousand souls.

41 οι μεν ουν ασμενως αποδεξαμενοι τον λογον αυτου εβαπτισθησαν9 και προσετεθησαν τη ημερα εκεινη ψυχαι ωσει τρισχιλιαι


You cannot mess with the Greek language to make it say anything other than added, in addition to, an increase of, you cannot add to something that did not previously exist.

On the day of pentecost they recieved the Holy Spirit and were born again that day then Peter preached THEN 3000 were added.

Days earlier Peter was behind closed doors for fear of the Jews then after recieving the gift of Holy Spirit then something happened,he got boldness...............

Act 2:14 But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words:

Act 2:23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:

Days earlier he was hiding from these men that he now tells to listen up gets in their face and tells them they by wicked hands crucified and ha slain the Lord Jesus.

What change Peter? The same Peter that denied the Lord 3 times and then was behind close doors for fear of the men he was standing up to.

The Apostles were called out and chosen before Pentecost thats true, but the body of called out believers who were the body of Christ started at Pentecost.

[Jacob_Rising]

Are you sniffing glue again? How about you don't speak for me? In fact, since you like Hebrew writings and teachings so much, read my sig line and take it to heart.
I could have swore we had a conversation a while back how you were saying that the church went back before Jesus.

Wasn't the church there before?

[Jacob_Rising]

Here's just a lovely quote from the Catholic church by Martin J. Scott { Things Catholics are asked about}

'' Nowere in the bible is it stated that worship should be changed from Saterday to Sunday. The fact is that the church was in existance for several centuries before the bible was given to the world. The church made the bible, the bible did not make the church......This same church, by the same divine authority, taught the doctrine of purgatory long before the bible was made. We have, therefore, the same authority for Purgatory as we have for sunday.''

[Chucky]

So, other than this guy defining "The Church" in a particular way to "prove" it existed prior to Pentecost, is there a point? Is this guy just trying to be "controversial" to show he's smarter than some caricatured "traditionalists"?

How about we say "The Church has ALWAYS existed"? Why? Because "God is The Church" (from a certain point of view) and God has ALWAYS existed.

And what would that prove? - aside from coming up with a "clever" definition in order to make some point about God being without beginning and humble Mankind coming later (for example).
John 7:37-39
On the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried out, saying, “If anyone thirsts, let him come to Me and drink. He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water.” But this He spoke concerning the Spirit, whom those believing in Him would receive; for the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.
So, to respond to the OP - sure, the Holy Spirit was active prior to Pentecost, with plenty of evidence in both the old and new testaments. etc. etc. etc. But the common "traditional" birth of The Church is Pentecost because that was when 'the Holy Spirit was given' (and you can then define "given").

I see no issue that required this guy to "set things straight". It struck me like the JWs "proving" John the Baptist isn't in heaven because Jesus said (Matthew 11:11) that "the least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he (JtB)". "God's been active for a long time, therefore The Church has been around a long time". Uh, so what?

[cbut1]

So, cbut1, you reject dispensationalism completely? Do you believe THE kingdom is here now? Do you reject the idea of the Tribulation and the thousand year (millenial) reign?


As I understand dispensationalism yes. I do always allow for room for my understanding to improve or change as I learn and grow.

No the Kingdom is not here now because Satan is still the master of this world.

The tribulation is yet to come as well as the millenial/Kingdom reign which will procede the tribulation.

[cbut1]

On the day of pentecost they recieved the Holy Spirit and were born again that day then Peter preached THEN 3000 were added.

Days earlier Peter was behind closed doors for fear of the Jews then after recieving the gift of Holy Spirit then something happened,he got boldness...............

Act 2:14 But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words:

Act 2:23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:

Days earlier he was hiding from these men that he now tells to listen up gets in their face and tells them they by wicked hands crucified and ha slain the Lord Jesus.

What change Peter? The same Peter that denied the Lord 3 times and then was behind close doors for fear of the men he was standing up to.

The Apostles were called out and chosen before Pentecost thats true, but the body of called out believers who were the body of Christ started at Pentecost.



You can't have it both ways either they were called out before Pentecost or they weren't and you said both but you also provided the definition of ekklesia.

Warrior4God;21314091]The Greek word for “church” is ekklesia, and in Scripture it simply means a group of people called out for a purpose. In its 89 uses in the epistles written to Christians, it refers either to individual groups of Christian believers or to all Christians as a body.

Those Apostles were called out for a purpose and they were taught directly from Christ and the Holy Spirit. Don't forget Christ also said in:

Mat 18:20 For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.

These same men that Christ called out from the shores of their fishing villages were assembled together in Jerusalem with 120 others before the day of Pentecost and told by Christ to wait there.

That according to the definition that you even provided of your own free will constitutes a ekklesia/Church. They were just not empowered yet by the Holy Spirit to move forward in the things Christ told them to do (great commision stuff, go teach Baptise teach) until He sent upon them the Holy Spirit.

[cbut1]

So, other than this guy defining "The Church" in a particular way to "prove" it existed prior to Pentecost, is there a point? Is this guy just trying to be "controversial" to show he's smarter than some caricatured "traditionalists"?

How about we say "The Church has ALWAYS existed"? Why? Because "God is The Church" (from a certain point of view) and God has ALWAYS existed.

And what would that prove? - aside from coming up with a "clever" definition in order to make some point about God being without beginning and humble Mankind coming later (for example).

So, to respond to the OP - sure, the Holy Spirit was active prior to Pentecost, with plenty of evidence in both the old and new testaments. etc. etc. etc. But the common "traditional" birth of The Church is Pentecost because that was when 'the Holy Spirit was given' (and you can then define "given").

I see no issue that required this guy to "set things straight". It struck me like the JWs "proving" John the Baptist isn't in heaven because Jesus said (Matthew 11:11) that "the least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he (JtB)". "God's been active for a long time, therefore The Church has been around a long time". Uh, so what?


That is the portion of interest to me and my caution to you is to not forget that Christ had the Holy Spirit come upon Him after His Baptism and it was with Him the whole time He was here.

[Constantine the Great]

I could have swore we had a conversation a while back how you were saying that the church went back before Jesus.

Wasn't the church there before?

I never said there was a Christian Church prior to Christ.

[DispensationalJim]

As I understand dispensationalism yes. I do always allow for room for my understanding to improve or change as I learn and grow.

No the Kingdom is not here now because Satan is still the master of this world.

The tribulation is yet to come as well as the millenial/Kingdom reign which will procede the tribulation.

Thank you for that response. I say AMEN!

[Chucky]

That is the portion of interest to me and my caution to you is to not forget that Christ had the Holy Spirit come upon Him after His Baptism and it was with Him the whole time He was here.Exactly - the Holy Spirit was upon various individuals throughout the bible, but traditionally it is when the Holy Spirit is given at Pentecost that "The Church" is said to have begun. This ties in with Paul calling all Christians part of the "royal priesthood" - our singular High Priest is Jesus, but we are all members of the priestly tribe.

My question was that, although the stuff quoted in the OP is "correct", what's the point?

[Semi-Sweet]

Exactly - the Holy Spirit was upon various individuals throughout the bible, but traditionally it is when the Holy Spirit is given at Pentecost that "The Church" is said to have begun. This ties in with Paul calling all Christians part of the "royal priesthood" - our singular High Priest is Jesus, but we are all members of the priestly tribe.

My question was that, although the stuff quoted in the OP is "correct", what's the point?

Because. . . . . .If you are a Baptist, this would mean that when John baptized Jesus he made him a Baptist and the Baptist Church started then and there and the Baptist Church would be the first Church.

Right?. . . . . . . .:cool:

[RayMan]

Because. . . . . .If you are a Baptist, this would mean that when John baptized Jesus he made him a Baptist and the Baptist Church started then and there and the Baptist Church would be the first Church.

Right?. . . . . . . .:cool:


That is not too far off from what I was taught as a Southern Baptist 30 something years ago. ;)

[Chucky]

Because. . . . . .If you are a Baptist, this would mean that when John baptized Jesus he made him a Baptist and the Baptist Church started then and there and the Baptist Church would be the first Church.

Right?. . . . . . . .:cool:So Baptists put the start of The Church at Jesus' baptism? cool, hadn't heard that one.

Of course, John wasn't the first to baptise, though. Historically, we're told that the Jews did have a version of 'baptism unto repentance' prior to Jesus. Plus there's that fellow who "baptised" himself seven times in the Jordan to be cleansed per the prophet's direction, and the parallels of Noah being 'baptised' through the flood waters, and the nation of Israel being "baptised" as they passed through the Red Sea, etc. - all to say that the model of baptism has been around for quite some time.

[buflineks]

Because. . . . . .If you are a Baptist, this would mean that when John baptized Jesus he made him a Baptist and the Baptist Church started then and there and the Baptist Church would be the first Church.

Right?. . . . . . . .:cool:


Funny considering that the Baptist church was started by John Smyth in the 17th century after he couldn't put up with the puritans and the mennonites.

[PaleoPaul]

Funny considering that the Baptist church was started by John Smyth in the 17th century after he couldn't put up with the puritans and the mennonites.
bUt yo rung!!! da trail uf blood sez so!!!

[buflineks]

bUt yo rung!!! da trail uf blood sez so!!!

of course, how silly of me to disregard that brillant work of fiction in favor of serious academic historical fact.

Bad buf.
:doh:

[Warrior4God]

You can't have it both ways either they were called out before Pentecost or they weren't and you said both but you also provided the definition of ekklesia.



Those Apostles were called out for a purpose and they were taught directly from Christ and the Holy Spirit. Don't forget Christ also said in:

Mat 18:20 For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.

These same men that Christ called out from the shores of their fishing villages were assembled together in Jerusalem with 120 others before the day of Pentecost and told by Christ to wait there.

That according to the definition that you even provided of your own free will constitutes a ekklesia/Church. They were just not empowered yet by the Holy Spirit to move forward in the things Christ told them to do (great commision stuff, go teach Baptise teach) until He sent upon them the Holy Spirit.

I think you are missing my point.

No one had salvation through Christ prior to Pentecost.

If anyone could be Christs body before pentecost it seems it would be saying that the blood of Jesus Christ and the death and resurection were for nothing.

Being called out as the disciples were prior to Pentecost means IMO that Christ was laying the foundation for that which was to come.

I think one of us is misunderstaning what the other is saying because I thought I was agreeing with you.
Now I am confused cbut.

[RayMan]

I think one of us is misunderstaning what the other is saying because I thought I was agreeing with you.
Now I am confused cbut.

Yeah, that'll happen around here. :mrgreen:

[cbut1]

Because. . . . . .If you are a Baptist, this would mean that when John baptized Jesus he made him a Baptist and the Baptist Church started then and there and the Baptist Church would be the first Church.

Right?. . . . . . . .:cool:

No!

That would be a lazy uninformed conclusion from those Baptist unwilling to educate themselves on their history. The attributed name of Baptist didn't come around until the 1600's before that many of our ancestors were labeled as ana-Baptist and before that numerous names based upon the prominent leader that was getting into hot water by the state promoted religious organization of the day.

That though is for another thread.

[cbut1]

So Baptists put the start of The Church at Jesus' baptism? cool, hadn't heard that one.

Of course, John wasn't the first to baptise, though. Historically, we're told that the Jews did have a version of 'baptism unto repentance' prior to Jesus. Plus there's that fellow who "baptised" himself seven times in the Jordan to be cleansed per the prophet's direction, and the parallels of Noah being 'baptised' through the flood waters, and the nation of Israel being "baptised" as they passed through the Red Sea, etc. - all to say that the model of baptism has been around for quite some time.


I think that (unsuspectingly on your part) you have just hit a BINGO when it comes to a portion of Baptist doctrine. In each case it was those who faithful and were being preserved/delivered/saved from one thing to another thing. Noah and His family being saved from Gods Wrath and delivered to a new beginning, Israel saved from Egypt and delivered to the Promised Land, are all foundational teachings that we as Baptist hold. For us it is the OT version of the NT Church. God chose one people by faith and blood as a nation to be His and they were commited by covenant agreement to example His Will and Majesty unto the rest of the world. It is now in the NT age a people (from many nations and places) who by faith commit in covenant to example Christ and His Majesty as the Son of God unto the rest of the world.

[cbut1]

Funny considering that the Baptist church was started by John Smyth in the 17th century after he couldn't put up with the puritans and the mennonites.


My friend that would not be your understanding if you were more clear on our doctrine concerning Baptism and Authority; which Mr. Smyth violated both.

[cbut1]

bUt yo rung!!! da trail uf blood sez so!!!


Buf knows that I have never in these threads promoted that the trail of blood is all authoritative.

Nice try though and BTW don't insult my intelligence :naughty: I read hibily jus fin. ;)

[cbut1]

of course, how silly of me to disregard that brillant work of fiction in favor of serious academic historical fact.

Bad buf.
:doh:


Oh BTW before you disappeared for a year you and I did touch on the subject of a few quotes in the Trail of Blood that you said were forgeries, I asked you to help me verify that and poof you were gone. So when your ready I would greatly appreciate your help concerning that endeavor.

[buflineks]

My friend that would not be your understanding if you were more clear on our doctrine concerning Baptism and Authority; which Mr. Smyth violated both.

cbut,

In a few weeks, I would like in a academic atmosphere to start a thread with you to address these things.

Purely in the intrest as to seeing your sources and listening to your thesis.

Right now I'm in the middle of a paper on Nathanael Greene, and I just downloaded an 11 page document on the Roman Army that I must digest, summerize and give a 15 min. lecture on for my Roman Republic Class.

So I don't have the time.

But I promise you, I will be around, and we will discuss this in the proper manner, and perhaps spread a little education around.


Pax mei amicus

[cbut1]

I think you are missing my point.

No one had salvation through Christ prior to Pentecost.

If anyone could be Christs body before pentecost it seems it would be saying that the blood of Jesus Christ and the death and resurection were for nothing.

Being called out as the disciples were prior to Pentecost means IMO that Christ was laying the foundation for that which was to come.

I think one of us is misunderstaning what the other is saying because I thought I was agreeing with you.
Now I am confused cbut.


That happens from time to time, confusion I mean. :)


The disciples were under the NT covenant by faith through their Baptism which was depicting the sacrifice and resurrection of Christ to come (establishing the foundation with Him as the Chief Cornerstone). When it did come they then understood what that all meant and continued to teach its importance, oh and notice that they didn't have to be saved after His death to be His!

[cbut1]

cbut,

In a few weeks, I would like in a academic atmosphere to start a thread with you to address these things.

Purely in the intrest as to seeing your sources and listening to your thesis.

Right now I'm in the middle of a paper on Nathanael Greene, and I just downloaded an 11 page document on the Roman Army that I must digest, summerize and give a 15 min. lecture on for my Roman Republic Class.

So I don't have the time.

But I promise you, I will be around, and we will discuss this in the proper manner, and perhaps spread a little education around.


Pax mei amicus


Nathanael Greene the Great American Revolutionary Patriot or some low podunc local cowboy. ;)

[Polkfan]

A nitpick: ekklesia doesn't mean church.

[RayMan]

A nitpick: ekklesia doesn't mean church.

I don't think it's a nitpick. We need to get that sort of thing straight. Thanks.

[cbut1]

A nitpick: ekklesia doesn't mean church.

Your correct but I also addressed this at least once in this thread it is what has been translated by others to mean that and most who talk about these subjects accept the term Church, there is alternatives that re readily accepted also. Assembly, congregation, gathering, gathering of called out believers.

Nitpick if you wish but please try and further the discussion not sidetrack it.

[buflineks]

Oh BTW before you disappeared for a year you and I did touch on the subject of a few quotes in the Trail of Blood that you said were forgeries, I asked you to help me verify that and poof you were gone. So when your ready I would greatly appreciate your help concerning that endeavor.

If I remember correctly we were talking about Stanislaus Hosius and the quotes from his works, right?

this next week I'll be up on the WSU electronic library loan. I will look for his works and let you know what I find.

[Semi-Sweet]

So Baptists put the start of The Church at Jesus' baptism? cool, hadn't heard that one.

Of course, John wasn't the first to baptise, though. Historically, we're told that the Jews did have a version of 'baptism unto repentance' prior to Jesus. Plus there's that fellow who "baptised" himself seven times in the Jordan to be cleansed per the prophet's direction, and the parallels of Noah being 'baptised' through the flood waters, and the nation of Israel being "baptised" as they passed through the Red Sea, etc. - all to say that the model of baptism has been around for quite some time.

Right, baptism was not new to the Jews. :cool:

[cbut1]

bump

[Jewell]

The Christian Church was founded in Israel by Jesus Christ.[3] Its birth place was Jerusalem. The authority for this Jewish sect was presented by the Apostles in the Gospels and Epistles. All of the Apostles were Jewish. All of the first converts were Jewish. On the day of Pentecost only Jews were present in the upper room.[4] For the next ten years until Acts 10 only Jewish individuals were added to the Church. Then in this chapter the door to the Gentiles was opened.[5] From this moment on the Christian Church consisted of both Jews and Gentiles. Gentiles were expected to conform in faith and practice to the same teachings of Jesus and the Apostles that Jews had followed for ten years. Messianic Judaism had expanded beyond the borders of Israel with the conversion of the Apostle Paul and his missionary trips into Asia. The Church at no time in the first century was looked upon as a Gentile religion. The Gentile members were considered joint heirs and fellowcitizens of the same Kingdom of God the Jews enjoyed. Apostle Paul tells us the middle wall was torn down between Jew and Gentile and there was now one body[6]

[cbut1]

The Christian Church was founded in Israel by Jesus Christ.[3] Its birth place was Jerusalem. The authority for this Jewish sect was presented by the Apostles in the Gospels and Epistles. All of the Apostles were Jewish. All of the first converts were Jewish. On the day of Pentecost only Jews were present in the upper room.[4] For the next ten years until Acts 10 only Jewish individuals were added to the Church. Then in this chapter the door to the Gentiles was opened.[5] From this moment on the Christian Church consisted of both Jews and Gentiles. Gentiles were expected to conform in faith and practice to the same teachings of Jesus and the Apostles that Jews had followed for ten years. Messianic Judaism had expanded beyond the borders of Israel with the conversion of the Apostle Paul and his missionary trips into Asia. The Church at no time in the first century was looked upon as a Gentile religion. The Gentile members were considered joint heirs and fellowcitizens of the same Kingdom of God the Jews enjoyed. Apostle Paul tells us the middle wall was torn down between Jew and Gentile and there was now one body[6]


Is this what you believe or is this just a cut and paste job?

[DispensationalJim]

Right, baptism was not new to the Jews. :cool:

Amen! Even dear Vir Doctus has confirmed that water cleansing (or baptism) was a ritual of the Jewish believers in the OT, so they were quite familiar with that practice when John the Baptist and the twelve began to practice it.

But I have a completely different take on when the church began. Actually, I should say when the church, THE BODY OF CHRIST, started. I believe Christ established a church which was composed of Jewish believers (or the "Jewish remnant") before He died, based on the famous passage in Matthew 16.

However, AFTER CHRIST DIED, ROSE AGAIN, AND ASCENDED TO HEAVEN, Jesus personally gave Paul a special "calling" and thus the new church, THE BODY OF CHRIST (1Cor. 12:27), began after Acts 9, when Saul was converted and became Paul, "the apostle of the Gentiles" (Rom. 11:13). Paul was the one who began teaching about the "Body of Christ" (never before mentioned by anyone in the Bible - see Rom. 16:25), the new "dispensation of the Age of Grace" (Eph. 3:2), and the concept of salvation by "GRACE ALONE THROUGH FAITH ALONE IN CHRIST ALONE" (Eph. 2:8,9) based on faith in the fact that "CHRIST DIED FOR OUR SINS" (1Cor. 15:1-4).

Paul also was the one who began teaching that there was now no difference between the Jew and the Gentile (Rom. 10:12). I believe the "Age of Grace" will end at the Rapture of the Body of Christ in the clouds (1Thess. 4).

Further, I believe that the Jewish remnant church will be renewed following The rapture, and after The Great Tribulation when Christ returns to the earth (Zeck. 14:4) to establish His Kingdom for 1,000 years (Matt. 19:28; Rev. 12:10).

[cbut1]

bump for new participation

[cbut1]

bump

[Koushi Shinigami]

Not interested.

[RayMan]

Is this what you believe or is this just a cut and paste job?

Quite possibly both.

Hey Jewell.

Just responded to a ten month old post, didn't I?

[cbut1]

I thought that with all the newbies here looking for info they would find this interesting.

[hben]

Which raises a question. Are the faithful Hebrews who were sanctified by the Law and lived prior to Christ's sacrifice "saved"?

I think they are.

They would be saved if they believed God, because that is what is counted for righteousness for Abraham as well as for Peter and Paul.

[Gem]

I believe that happened because the Jews had to be preached to first, there was no Gentiles there. nothing but Jews.

Alos on the day of pentecost there was only Jews there on that day as well. that is why so many got the Holy Ghost on the day of pentecost, it was only to the Jews first.

[Gem]

I am not prepared to be dogmatic (or even pup-matic) on whether they were born again from above in the upper room or whether Jesus was employing symbology in what He said and did there.

Years ago I heard a fellow teaching on this passage use the phrase:

"They received some sort of an anointing at this time," which seemed a bit vague to me.

My thought is that, it is after the Resurrecton, they are addressing Him as Lord in the passage and they are told to receive the Holy Ghost. On the day of Pentecost they are endued with power as Luke records the Lord saying in Luke 24.

Again, JMO, but this could shine some light onto the argument between some non-charismatics and some Pentecostal folk as concerns whether believers receive the Holy Ghost and become children of God BEFORE they are filled with the Spirit with the "evidence" (I never really like that term but people are familiar with it) of speaking in tongues.

I could be totally off the mark, or I might have something here.

I have seen people get the Holy Ghost first, but to seal it they have to get baptized as well.

Everyone I ever seen that got the Holy Ghost first always got baptized the same night.

[Gem]

I am not prepared to be dogmatic (or even pup-matic) on whether they were born again from above in the upper room or whether Jesus was employing symbology in what He said and did there.

Years ago I heard a fellow teaching on this passage use the phrase:

"They received some sort of an anointing at this time," which seemed a bit vague to me.

My thought is that, it is after the Resurrecton, they are addressing Him as Lord in the passage and they are told to receive the Holy Ghost. On the day of Pentecost they are endued with power as Luke records the Lord saying in Luke 24.

Again, JMO, but this could shine some light onto the argument between some non-charismatics and some Pentecostal folk as concerns whether believers receive the Holy Ghost and become children of God BEFORE they are filled with the Spirit with the "evidence" (I never really like that term but people are familiar with it) of speaking in tongues.

I could be totally off the mark, or I might have something here.

I do not think anyone can get the Holy Ghost and not speak in tongues when they get it. I have seen a lot of people get the Holy ghost and they all spoke in tongues when they got it .

There is only one spirit you get when you get saved. that would be the Holy Ghost. I know of no other spirit.

[Koushi Shinigami]

They would be saved if they believed God, because that is what is counted for righteousness for Abraham as well as for Peter and Paul.

Seems that would be the requirement for everyone today as well.

[Gem]

The Christian Church was founded in Israel by Jesus Christ.[3] Its birth place was Jerusalem. The authority for this Jewish sect was presented by the Apostles in the Gospels and Epistles. All of the Apostles were Jewish. All of the first converts were Jewish. On the day of Pentecost only Jews were present in the upper room.[4] For the next ten years until Acts 10 only Jewish individuals were added to the Church. Then in this chapter the door to the Gentiles was opened.[5] From this moment on the Christian Church consisted of both Jews and Gentiles. Gentiles were expected to conform in faith and practice to the same teachings of Jesus and the Apostles that Jews had followed for ten years. Messianic Judaism had expanded beyond the borders of Israel with the conversion of the Apostle Paul and his missionary trips into Asia. The Church at no time in the first century was looked upon as a Gentile religion. The Gentile members were considered joint heirs and fellowcitizens of the same Kingdom of God the Jews enjoyed. Apostle Paul tells us the middle wall was torn down between Jew and Gentile and there was now one body[6]

I fully agree with this as well.
and pleased to meet you Jewel :hug:

[cbut1]

I do not think anyone can get the Holy Ghost and not speak in tongues when they get it. I have seen a lot of people get the Holy ghost and they all spoke in tongues when they got it .

There is only one spirit you get when you get saved. that would be the Holy Ghost. I know of no other spirit.

What do you mean by speak in tongues?

[Gem]

The church is the body of believers. It is one of three distict groups of people mentioned in scripture. (Jews, Gentiles, and the Church). Those who have believed in the gospel (1Cor.15:1-4) and are now indwelled by the Holy Spirit. What we know as christianity did not (could not) begin until after the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ. Christ had to ascend before He sent the Holy Spirit. This is the dispensation of grace and the gospel of salvation is that Christ died for our sins, according to the scriptures, was buried, and rose again the third day, according to the scriptures. All who hold to this faith are indwelled by the Holy Spirit and are part of the body.

I agree with you on this because before the Holy Ghost came God
talked with them in the old testament or sent His angels.
Nothing is impossable with God. He can become what He wants when He wants. He even took on human flesh. :dance:

[Gem]

What do you mean by speak in tongues?



My version of tongues is God speaking through you when you get the Holy Ghost.

[cbut1]

My version of tongues is God speaking through you when you get the Holy Ghost.

What do you mean then by get the Holy Ghost?

Do you go chase him down and capture him?

Do you call him over and ambush him?

Does he almost magically appear at your behest?

What do you mean?


I for one do not claim that I have the capacity to get the Holy Ghost because I am still a sinner in a fleshly coruptable body and the Holy Spirit is un-corruptable and righteous and cannot dwell inside of me.

[cbut1]

I agree with you on this because before the Holy Ghost came God
talked with them in the old testament or sent His angels.
Nothing is impossable with God. He can become what He wants when He wants. He even took on human flesh. :dance:

Bold is mine


That is a biblically incorrect statement.

[Fire Watch]

What do you mean then by get the Holy Ghost?

Do you go chase him down and capture him?

Do you call him over and ambush him?

Does he almost magically appear at your behest?

What do you mean? Boy, can we say snarky?


I for one do not claim that I have the capacity to get the Holy Ghost because I am still a sinner in a fleshly coruptable body and the Holy Spirit is un-corruptable and righteous and cannot dwell inside of me.
It would seem that Paul disagree's with you.

1 Corinthians 6:19

What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?

Galatians 2:20

I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the lifewhich I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me

In the book of Acts, we also see many example of believers being filled with the Holy Ghost. Here is but one.

Acts 2

4. And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

If in Acts we see believers FILLED with the Holy Ghost, and in Corinthians we find out that our body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, then it would seem that your claim that "(one can) not claim that (one has) the capacity to get the Holy Ghost because (one is) still a sinner in a fleshly coruptable body and the Holy Spirit is un-corruptable and righteous and cannot dwell inside of (one)," is simply incorrect according to scripture.

[Fire Watch]

I agree with you on this because before the Holy Ghost came God
talked with them in the old testament or sent His angels.
Nothing is impossable with God. He can become what He wants when He wants. He even took on human flesh. :dance:
Bold is mine


That is a biblically incorrect statement.

Not according to Jesus it isn't.

Matthew 19:26

But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.

So again, if according to Jesus, "with God, all things are possible", that would in fact prove Gem's statement out, that "Nothing is impossible with God"

[cbut1]

Not according to Jesus it isn't.

Matthew 19:26

But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.

So again, if according to Jesus, "with God, all things are possible", that would in fact prove Gem's statement out, that "Nothing is impossible with God"


Oh come on Rick you should know by now that I don't jump without knowing where I am going to land. :D

Tit 1:2 in hope of eternal life, which God, who cannot lie, promised before times eternal;

Heb 6:18 that by two immutable things, in which it is impossible for God to lie, we may have a strong encouragement, who have fled for refuge to lay hold of the hope set before us:

It is impossible for God to lie so biblical fact shows that not all things are possible.

[cbut1]

Boy, can we say snarky?



It would seem that Paul disagree's with you.

1 Corinthians 6:19

What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?

Galatians 2:20

I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the lifewhich I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me

In the book of Acts, we also see many example of believers being filled with the Holy Ghost. Here is but one.

Acts 2

4. And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

If in Acts we see believers FILLED with the Holy Ghost, and in Corinthians we find out that our body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, then it would seem that your claim that "(one can) not claim that (one has) the capacity to get the Holy Ghost because (one is) still a sinner in a fleshly coruptable body and the Holy Spirit is un-corruptable and righteous and cannot dwell inside of (one)," is simply incorrect according to scripture.

Paul is speaking to the assembled Church and they are the body in which he is reffering.

1Co 1:1 Paul, called to be an apostle of Jesus Christ through the will of God, and Sosthenes our brother,

1Co 1:2 unto the church of God which is at Corinth, even them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that call upon the name of our Lord Jesus Christ in every place, their Lord and ours:

The same with Galatians:

Gal 1:1 Paul, an apostle (not from men, neither through man, but through Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead),

Gal 1:2 and all the brethren that are with me, unto the churches of Galatia:


Also with those in Acts

Act 2:1 And when the day of Pentecost was now come, they were all together in one place.

They Who?

Act 1:3 to whom he also showed himself alive after his passion by many proofs, appearing unto them by the space of forty days, and speaking the things concerning the kingdom of God:

Act 1:4 and, being assembled together with them, he charged them not to depart from Jerusalem, but to wait for the promise of the Father, which, said he, ye heard from me:

Act 1:13 And when they were come in, they went up into the upper chamber, where they were abiding; both Peter and John and James and Andrew, Philip and Thomas, Bartholomew and Matthew, James the son of Alphaeus, and Simon the Zealot, and Judas the son of James.

Act 1:14 These all with one accord continued stedfastly in prayer, with the women, and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with his brethren.

The Jerusalem assembly (Church)

Many take the verses just the way you did and apply them to individuals but the reality is context shows that it was a assembled body of believers that was being spoken to. Christ gave His Spirit to the Church because it is His body here on earth.

[mgifford]

Which raises a question. Are the faithful Hebrews who were sanctified by the Law and lived prior to Christ's sacrifice "saved"?

I think they are.

Abraham believed (had faith) and it was accounted unto him for "righteousness". Jews who had faith, trusted in God's words were "saved on credit", in hopes of the future. IOW, it's similar to a credit card that one may use. He doesn't have to pay now, because at a later date, the Messiah will come and pay the price.

When Christ was crucified He went into the depths of "paradise" and defeated the devil and his angels forever. Abe and the rest were then taken with Him to Heaven ", The bill for their sins were paid.

BTW, without that faith that Abe had they aren't saved whatsoever.

[mgifford]

The Church without the Holy Spirit is just an empty shell, a destitute orphan (John 14:17-18 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John%2014:17-18;&version=51;)), a helpless institution (John 14:16-17, 26, 15:26, 16:7 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John%2014:16-17,%2026,%2015:26,%2016:7;&version=49;)).

Fact is that at all times in the OT and NT one of the "godhead" was here on earth with us. God walked in the cool of the day with Adam, Jesus was here to build his church, then the HS was/is here since.

[Meriweather]

Many take the verses just the way you did and apply them to individuals but the reality is context shows that it was a assembled body of believers that was being spoken to. Christ gave His Spirit to the Church because it is His body here on earth.

I'm not understanding, or am puzzled by a couple of things in your above statement.

First there is the question of how Christ gives the Holy Spirit to the Church without giving it to individuals; isn't it individuals who make up the Church?

Second, how do you apply scripture that names specific individuals as being filled with the Holy Spirit?

Acts 4:8 - Peter, filled with the Holy Spirit, answered them...
Acts 6:5 - Stephen, a man full of faith and of the Holy Spirit...
Acts 8:29 - The Spirit said to Philip...
Acts 11:24 - Barnabas...a good man, full of the Holy Holy Spirit...

[Quantrill]

To cbut1

As to point 1. in the list , yes "ekklesia" means "called out ones". It can refer to any group. But the Church is a specific body, and the "ekklesia" which make up that body must have the Holy Spirit as that is the uniting factor.

That Holy Spirit, which unites, did not come to indwell man until the day of Pentacost. It was here before, yes. It could come on man in power. It could dwell them temporarily, but it would leave also. It could come to dwell in man only after the blood of Jesus Christ was shed. Then the body, or temple, could be declared clean by God, making the way possible for the Holy Spirit to dwell.

So, I say the Church has a distinct begining. That being the day of Pentacost.

Quantrill

[mgifford]

To cbut1

As to point 1. in the list , yes "ekklesia" means "called out ones". It can refer to any group. But the Church is a specific body, and the "ekklesia" which make up that body must have the Holy Spirit as that is the uniting factor.

That Holy Spirit, which unites, did not come to indwell man until the day of Pentacost. It was here before, yes. It could come on man in power. It could dwell them temporarily, but it would leave also. It could come to dwell in man only after the blood of Jesus Christ was shed. Then the body, or temple, could be declared clean by God, making the way possible for the Holy Spirit to dwell.

So, I say the Church has a distinct begining. That being the day of Pentacost.

Quantrill

Sorry but, God the "Holy Spirit" isn't an it!

[Meriweather]

The, Holy Spirit is God, And He Is A Gentleman.
As called God Ac 5:3,4.
As joined with the Father and the Son in the baptismal formula Mt 28:19.
As eternal Heb 9:14.
As Author of the new birth Joh 3:5,6; 1Jn 5:4.
As raising Christ from the dead Ac 2:24; 1Pe 3:18; Heb 13:20; Ro 1:4.
As Comforter of the Church Ac 9:31; 2Co 1:3.
As sanctifying the Church Eze 37:28; Ro 15:16.

Thanks, mgifford--but my questions and puzzlement remain about the statement of the Holy Spirit being given to the Church as opposed to individuals.

[mgifford]

Thanks, mgifford--but my questions and puzzlement remain about the statement of the Holy Spirit being given to the Church as opposed to individuals.

Thank you, I'll delete!

[Meriweather]

Thank you, I'll delete!

No need to delete--besides, I quoted them so they will continue to be seen (for all eternity!). I enjoyed reading through the passages. I am just saying I still don't understand, and I need further explanation.

[Quantrill]

To Meriweather

Of course you are right. A common mistake by me. No disrespect intended.

Quantrill


To cbut1

Concerning point 2 of the list, the term "house" in Mark 13:34 is used in the parable. Its part of the parable story.

"House" is used to identify the Church in Scripture. But it is also used to identify Israel. See Eze.45:6-20. In Heb. 3:5-6 you see both the Church and Israel addressed as "house". So you have to determine which house is addressed.

The subject prior in Mark 13:24-37 is the 2nd coming when Christ comes to the earth. This would not be to the Church as the Church is called out at the rapture. Thus if one wanted to make the term "house" fit either the Church or Israel, here it would be Israel.

But, I think trying to make "house" fit either is stretching the parable.

Quantrill

[5thIDSoldier]

The church is the body of believers. It is one of three distict groups of people mentioned in scripture. (Jews, Gentiles, and the Church). Those who have believed in the gospel (1Cor.15:1-4) and are now indwelled by the Holy Spirit. What we know as christianity did not (could not) begin until after the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ. Christ had to ascend before He sent the Holy Spirit. This is the dispensation of grace and the gospel of salvation is that Christ died for our sins, according to the scriptures, was buried, and rose again the third day, according to the scriptures. All who hold to this faith are indwelled by the Holy Spirit and are part of the body.

One small point for you to chew on: The Holy Spirit descended upon Christ at his Baptism, long prior to his crucifixion.

At Pentecost 3,000 believers were "added to" the church, indicating a prior existance.


Acts 2:41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.


They were added to the disciples in the church, which had already started.

[5thIDSoldier]

Which raises a question. Are the faithful Hebrews who were sanctified by the Law and lived prior to Christ's sacrifice "saved"?

I think they are.

Me too.

They went to Paradise upon thier death. Not heaven..there is a difference.

[Koushi Shinigami]

I for one do not claim that I have the capacity to get the Holy Ghost because I am still a sinner in a fleshly coruptable body and the Holy Spirit is un-corruptable and righteous and cannot dwell inside of me.

So who does enter into and take up residence in the heart of a Christian when they are 'saved'.

[cbut1]

I'm not understanding, or am puzzled by a couple of things in your above statement.

First there is the question of how Christ gives the Holy Spirit to the Church without giving it to individuals; isn't it individuals who make up the Church?

Second, how do you apply scripture that names specific individuals as being filled with the Holy Spirit?

Acts 4:8 - Peter, filled with the Holy Spirit, answered them...
Acts 6:5 - Stephen, a man full of faith and of the Holy Spirit...
Acts 8:29 - The Spirit said to Philip...
Acts 11:24 - Barnabas...a good man, full of the Holy Holy Spirit...


It is a difficult thing to answer because it has been a long held belief by many and even many in my own faith. The premise is here; God, Christ, Holy Spirit are all Holy and Righteous so much so that Christ when dyiing on the cross God turned away from Him for the sin that He bore. So how is it that the actuall Holy Spirit can abide inside a man even if he is saved he is still a sinner and God cannot abide sin. I propose those verses to be speaking about how those mens spirit was conformed of turned to be in harmony with the Holy Spirit.

Rom 8:16 The Spirit himself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are children of God:

Heb 10:14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

Heb 10:15 And the Holy Spirit also beareth witness to us; for after he hath said,

Heb 10:16 This is the covenant that I will make with them After those days, saith the Lord: I will put my laws on their heart, And upon their mind also will I write them; then saith he,

Rom 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God, sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

Rom 8:4 that the ordinance of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Rom 8:5 For they that are after the flesh mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
Rom 8:6 For the mind of the flesh is death; but the mind of the Spirit is life and peace:

Rom 8:7 because the mind of the flesh is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can it be:

Rom 8:8 and they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you. But if any man hath not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

Rom 8:10 And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the spirit is life because of righteousness.

Rom 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwelleth in you, he that raised up Christ Jesus from the dead shall give life also to your mortal bodies through his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

Rom 8:12 So then, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh:

Rom 8:13 for if ye live after the flesh, ye must die; but if by the Spirit ye put to death the deeds of the body, ye shall live.


Notice again he is speaking to the assembly as a whole and he is saying that as you learn to put away the flesh in your life and live by the spirit of mind and heart that is Christ then in like manner as Christ was raised so shall we. For it is His Spirit that beareth witness with our spirit that we are His.

Your children are a testimony to you regarding this Meri. Your children are intelligent, loving, gentle, patient, and thoughtful (according to the testimony you have shared with us) how did they get that way? I know they don't just come by it for no man ever has despite what Mikko and Koushi would like all to believe. :hug: No they come by it because they have you inside them (not literally) but in essence and teaching and maturity. Your laws are written upon their hearts and they reflect your being. In like manner we are to reflect Christ having the same Spirit (mindset heart persona) about us as He does, just as He does His Father.

Heb 1:1 In many ways and in various ways of old, God spoke to the fathers in the prophets;

Heb 1:2 in these last days He spoke to us in the Son, whom He appointed heir of all; through whom He indeed made the ages;

Heb 1:3 who being the shining splendor of His glory, and the express image of His essence, and upholding all things by the Word of His power, having made purification of our sins through Himself, He sat down on the right of the Majesty on high

[cbut1]

To cbut1

As to point 1. in the list , yes "ekklesia" means "called out ones". It can refer to any group. But the Church is a specific body, and the "ekklesia" which make up that body must have the Holy Spirit as that is the uniting factor.

That Holy Spirit, which unites, did not come to indwell man until the day of Pentacost. It was here before, yes. It could come on man in power. It could dwell them temporarily, but it would leave also. It could come to dwell in man only after the blood of Jesus Christ was shed. Then the body, or temple, could be declared clean by God, making the way possible for the Holy Spirit to dwell.

So, I say the Church has a distinct begining. That being the day of Pentacost.

Quantrill

Forget not that the Holy Spirit came upon Christ at His Baptism and STAYED with Him. So while He was here so was the Spirit with man and He called out men to Himself.

[cbut1]

To Meriweather

Of course you are right. A common mistake by me. No disrespect intended.

Quantrill


To cbut1

Concerning point 2 of the list, the term "house" in Mark 13:34 is used in the parable. Its part of the parable story.

"House" is used to identify the Church in Scripture. But it is also used to identify Israel. See Eze.45:6-20. In Heb. 3:5-6 you see both the Church and Israel addressed as "house". So you have to determine which house is addressed.

The subject prior in Mark 13:24-37 is the 2nd coming when Christ comes to the earth. This would not be to the Church as the Church is called out at the rapture. Thus if one wanted to make the term "house" fit either the Church or Israel, here it would be Israel.

But, I think trying to make "house" fit either is stretching the parable.

Quantrill


Bold is mine

Try again, no such thing as a rapture in scripture at least not in such a way as you imply.

[RayMan]

Bold is mine

Try again, no such thing as a rapture in scripture at least not in such a way as you imply.

Cbut1 and myself in perfect harmony on a doctrinal issue. This is probably a sign of the Apocalypse.

Merry Christmas cbut. Hope you and your household had a lovely holiday.

[Koushi Shinigami]

Cbut1 and myself in perfect harmony on a doctrinal issue. This is probably a sign of the Apocalypse.


.

Thought I heard hoofbeats...

[RayMan]

Thought I heard hoofbeats...

I got dibs on the black horse. I really need to lose some of this holiday weight.

[Koushi Shinigami]

I got dibs on the black horse. I really need to lose some of this holiday weight.

Of course, Clint Eastwood has dibs on the pale horse...

[Quantrill]

To cbut1

Jesus Christ was and is the Son of God. Therefore He is in a different category altogether than fallen man.

However, as I said before, the Holy Spirit would come upon those during the time of the Old Testament. And at the baptism of Christ we are told the Holy Spirit came "upon" Him.

And, though the four gospels are located in the New Testament, it is Old Testament ground that they are on.


Quantrill

[Quantrill]

To cbut1

Concerning the "rapture", you say "Try again". Why? is yours the final word on the subject. I doubt it.

So, no need to "try again". I am confident in that what I said is correct.

But, pertaining to the "house" in the parable it really wouldn't matter. What matters is that house can stand for Israel or the Church.

Quantrill

[Fire Watch]

Oh come on Rick you should know by now that I don't jump without knowing where I am going to land. :D

Tit 1:2 in hope of eternal life, which God, who cannot lie, promised before times eternal;

Heb 6:18 that by two immutable things, in which it is impossible for God to lie, we may have a strong encouragement, who have fled for refuge to lay hold of the hope set before us:

It is impossible for God to lie so biblical fact shows that not all things are possible.
So, is Jesus then a liar for stating the opposite?

[cbut1]

So, is Jesus then a liar for stating the opposite?

LOL :lol:

No He definatly wasn't but the two are speaking about different contexts. God cannot lie! God can do all things! are both absolute truths in their proper contexts. God did once ask and send a lieing spirit to accomplish a task against a rebellious King. God Himself did not Lie.

[Jacob_Rising]

First let me say I do not know this person nor do I know anyone who does. I do not claim to agree nor disagree with what the author has written but I find it an interesting topic that I think others may enjoy participating in discussion in.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
by Pastor Greg Wilson

1. The literal meaning of the word church (ekklesia). From ek, meaning "out" and kaleo meaning "to call." Jesus called out His disciples from the disciples of John early in His public ministry, forming the church or called-out assembly (John 1:35-51).

2. Christ said He would leave His “house” on earth when He went on a “far journey” (ascended back unto heaven) (Mark 13: 31-37). The church is identified as His “house” (Heb. 3:1-6; 1 Tim. 3:15; Eph. 2:20,21; 1 Cor. 3:16). Christ ascended prior to Pentecost (Mark 16:19; Acts 1:9-11).

3. Christ spoke of His disciples as a “flock” prior to Pentecost (Luke 12:32; Matt. 26:31,32). The church is identified as the “flock” of God (Acts 20:28,29; 1 Pet. 5:2,3).

4. They preached the gospel prior to Pentecost (Mark 1:1; 3:14; Matt. 10:14; Luke 10:1-17).

5. They had Holy Spirit power prior to Pentecost (Matt. 10:5, 19,20).

6. They baptized prior to Pentecost (John 4:1,2).

7. They received the Lord’s Supper prior to Pentecost (Matt. 26:26; Luke 22:17-20; Mark 14:22-26).

8. They had an ordained ministry prior to Pentecost (Mark 3:14; cf. 1 Cor. 12:28).

9. They had church discipline prior to Pentecost (Matt. 18:15-17).

10. They had Christ as their “head” prior to Pentecost (John 13:14; cf. Eph. 1:22,23).

11. They had a membership of 120 prior to Pentecost (Acts 1:15; note, “names”).

12. They had a business meeting and elected officers prior to Pentecost (Acts 1:15-26).

13. They had a treasurer prior to Pentecost (John 13:29).

14. They “added” 3,000 on the day of Pentecost (Acts 2:41).

15. They had the “Great Commission” prior to Pentecost (Matt. 28:19,20).

16. Christ was “building” His church prior to Pentecost (Matt. 16:18).

17. They (“us”) had been in existence (“companied with us”) “from the baptism of John” (Acts 1:21,22).

18. The Bridegroom was with His Bride (the church) prior to Pentecost (John 3:29; cf. Eph. 5:22-33; 2 Cor. 11:2).

19. Christ sang in His church prior to Pentecost (Mark 14:26; in fulfillment of Psalm 22:22; see Heb. 2:12).

20. There is NO Scripture anywhere to indicate that the church began at Pentecost.I don't understand the question.

The church as people call it has been around since people first believed in a God.

It's the temple, it didn't change into something else when Jesus came along.

[cbut1]

To cbut1

Jesus Christ was and is the Son of God. Therefore He is in a different category altogether than fallen man.

However, as I said before, the Holy Spirit would come upon those during the time of the Old Testament. And at the baptism of Christ we are told the Holy Spirit came "upon" Him.

And, though the four gospels are located in the New Testament, it is Old Testament ground that they are on.


Quantrill


OK lets walk through this then.

Christ found it necessary to be Baptised so as to fulfill all righteousness. At that time the Holy Spirit came upon Him and stayed with Him. Then He began calling men unto Him to be fishers of men. He then instructed those men in all things pertaining unto the Father. Finally in His last instruction personally to them He said wait here and I will send what was promised unto you.

During this journey He was asked by followers of John.

Mat 9:14 Then come to him the disciples of John, saying, Why do we and the Pharisees fast oft, but thy disciples fast not?

Mat 9:15 And Jesus said unto them, Can the sons of the bridechamber mourn, as long as the bridegroom is with them? but the days will come, when the bridegroom shall be taken away from them, and then will they fast.

Everything needful to the Bride is present with the Bridegroom even the espousal ring (Holy Spirit).

[cbut1]

I don't understand the question.

The church as people call it has been around since people first believed in a God.

It's the temple, it didn't change into something else when Jesus came along.

:dance:

[cbut1]

Meri did I help or add confusion?

[Meriweather]

Meri did I help or add confusion?

You seem to be saying that the Holy Spirit was present in individuals in the early Church, but no more? Now it is the Church entity itself that is of the Holy Spirit?

Another question: Do Baptists believe individuals can have an individual relationship with God?

(I would say I'm still in the learning stage and therefore confused as to what you are explaining.)

[Quantrill]

To cbut1

Christs baptism by John was with water. The Holy Spirit coming upon Jesus was not the work of the Holy Spirit in making one body of Jew and Gentile. It came upon Him in power as it did other Old Testament prophets. Except He recieved the fullnes of the Spirit and not just in part.

The blood has to be shed to cleans the body for the temple to habitable by that Holy Spirit. Jesus Christ must first ascend and be glorified before the Holy Spirit can be sent, which would be a new thing in that it will be the Spirit of the glorified Christ. John 7:38, 39

The bridegroom of Matt 9 speaks to Israels relationship to God. See Isaiah 61:10 and 62:5.

Quantrill

[baysidetrey]

[QUOTE]Amen! Even dear Vir Doctus has confirmed that water cleansing (or baptism) was a ritual of the Jewish believers in the OT, so they were quite familiar with that practice when John the Baptist and the twelve began to practice it
Not exactly true. Jewish baptism under the old law was for flesh purification (physical). John's baptism was unto repentence/remision of sins (Acts 19:4). Christian baptism is for the remission of sins (Acts 2:38) (Spiritual) IMO. And BTW, Paul did baptize gentiles Acts 16:33.

[cbut1]

You seem to be saying that the Holy Spirit was present in individuals in the early Church, but no more? Now it is the Church entity itself that is of the Holy Spirit?

Another question: Do Baptists believe individuals can have an individual relationship with God?

(I would say I'm still in the learning stage and therefore confused as to what you are explaining.)

What I am saying is that it is our internal Spirit that takes on the likeness of the Holy Spirit as we grow and mature in Christ. The Holy Spirit was given to the Church as a whole thus affecting us as individuals. If we leave the Church can we carry the Holy Spirit off into our debauchery? No we cannot, becuase it is Holy and Righteous yet we can still leave the Church and die in that seperated condition.

[RayMan]

What I am saying is that it is our internal Spirit that takes on the likeness of the Holy Spirit as we grow and mature in Christ. The Holy Spirit was given to the Church as a whole thus affecting us as individuals. If we leave the Church can we carry the Holy Spirit off into our debauchery? No we cannot, becuase it is Holy and Righteous yet we can still leave the Church and die in that seperated condition.

A Baptist referring to the Holy Ghost as "it?" I'm shocked.

[Meriweather]

What I am saying is that it is our internal Spirit that takes on the likeness of the Holy Spirit as we grow and mature in Christ. The Holy Spirit was given to the Church as a whole thus affecting us as individuals. If we leave the Church can we carry the Holy Spirit off into our debauchery? No we cannot, becuase it is Holy and Righteous yet we can still leave the Church and die in that seperated condition.

While not debating that our own spirit grows more Christ-like as we grow and mature, I would also add that the Holy Spirit is independent of this. What is cold but the absence of heat, or darkness but the absence of light? To me, debauchery seems more like the absence of the Spirit--evil cannot exist with the Spirit.

So yes, I believe we can be filled with the Holy Spirit. I would tend to disagree with those who would state that the Holy Spirit's presence is marked by certain manifestations. Perhaps sometimes, yes--but I would not say always.

[Quantrill]

To cbut1

I disagree with your statement that we become like the Holy Spirit and that we can leave the Church and the Holy Spirit doesn't go with us, leaving us in a separated from God condition.

Your spirit is born again. Your very spirit is of God. Not something the Holy Spirit comes and goes from. The Christian is the Church. He cannot leave. The Holy Spirit of God goes where you go. You are of God.

You can quench and grieve the Holy Spirit, but the Holy Spirit will never leave the believer. The believer will never be separated from God as you incate.

Quantrill

[Gem]

What do you mean then by get the Holy Ghost?

Do you go chase him down and capture him? .

No I did not chase Him down and capture Him.
------------------------------------------------
Do you call him over and ambush him?

No I did not call Him and ambush Him.
------------------------------------------
Does he almost magically appear at your behest?

No He did not.
------------------

What do you mean?


I for one do not claim that I have the capacity to get the Holy Ghost because I am still a sinner in a fleshly coruptable body and the Holy Spirit is un-corruptable and righteous and cannot dwell inside of me.

Cbut
You said you was a minister or pastor which ever it was.
By these questions you are asking me here is right out stupid.

I am a lot older than you young man, and have been living for God for years. Show some respect, quit talking to me like I am a child or dumb or something, and quit asking dumb questions like a child would.

If you do not get the Holy Ghost inside you then you are in a lot of trouble when the rapture comes. If the rapture comes today and you do not have the Holy Ghost inside your heart , you will go nowhere. you need to get real with God, thats what you need to do.

Allso , when you actually get down to real buisness and do some real praying and ask God to forgive you of your sins and really really mean it and really want the Holy ghost God will give it to you, He fills your heart with it.

And I saw another thread where you said you speak in tongues.
How can you speak in tongues unless God is inside you ? It cannot be done and be the real thing. you hear me Cbut. It cannot be done and be real if you do not have the Holy ghost inside you.

You talk like you know everything there is to know about God, well son, let me tell you that you have a long way to go yet.

My advice to you is to really get serious with God and really take the bible as His word and quit trying to change it by putting your twist on it.

Quit trying to change the way Gods word is writen in the bible.
and take it for what it says.
Cause that is exactly what you are doing.

If you will read the book of Acts you will see that all of the
Apostles got the Holy ghost inside them and spake in another tongue when they did it.

Its all through the book of acts.

God has all His gifts for you if you would really get down to buisness with Him and do what He says to do.

Do you understand that Cbut ? You can get all the gifts of the spirit if you really want them.

[Gem]

Re: "after the Tribulation." Didn't meant to leave the impression that I currently believe in pre-trib Rapture. I believe the Second Coming IS the Second Coming not the Third with a secret Rapture coming first and that the Resurrection occurs at that time.

You are right on the mark with this one RayMan . :hug:

[Gem]

Do you think when Jesus breathed on them and told the to recieve the Holy Ghost ,that he was teaching and preparing them for what was to come?(just a thought)

This is right Warrior4God.

And this happened on the day of pentecost. :hug:

[Gem]

I am one of those who believe that the verses below must precede the Tribulation.

1Th. 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
1Th. 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
1Th. 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1Th. 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th. 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
1Th. 4:18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

===================================

We accept Paul's words regarding the wrath of God as they apply to the Body of Christ. We consider the "wrath" to be The Tribulation for Israel, so the Body of Christ will not have to go through it.

1Th. 1:10 And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.
1Th. 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ...

==================================

Since there is no indication that Jesus is actually "touching down" on the earth in the Rapture, He must necessarily be "coming back" to complete the "second portion" of the second coming later to fulfill the prophecies shown below which obviously have not yet occurred:

Zech. 14:1 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.
Zech. 14:2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
Zech. 14:3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
Zech. 14:4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
Zech. 14:5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.
Zech. 14:6 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark:
Zech. 14:7 But it shall be one day which shall be known to the LORD, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light.
Zech. 14:8 And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.
Zech. 14:9 And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.

==============================

We would all agree, I think, that the First coming of the Christ lasted about 33 years, so why would His Second coming have to be a short event?

In our understanding, the Rapture of the Body of Christ will be followed by the Great Tribulation (7 years) and THEN Christ returns to place Satan in the pit and set up His KINGDOM (the thousand year reign/millenium) which also is FOR ISRAEL, not for the Body of Christ.

This is the way it will be Despensational Jim.
The rapture which will take the Lords bride home to be with Him for ever and ever. This is the reason you need the Holy Ghost inside you.

And if you are not in this group then there is something you did not do right in your walk with Jesus.

[Gem]

By Jesus' death on the cross, he did not open the way into heaven. The Tabernacle of Israel was a type of spiritual things to come. The writer of Hebrews observed that "the priests go continually into the outer tent, performing their ritual duties; but into the second only the high priest goes, and he but once a year, and not without taking blood which he offers for himself and for the errors of the people. By this the Holy Spirit indicates that the way into the sanctuary is not yet opened as long as the outer tent is still standing [which is symbolic for the present age] . . .the then-present age, the 'last days' of the former covenant. . . .But when Christ appeared as a high priest of the good things that have come, then through the greater and more perfect tent [not made with hands, that is, not of this creation] he entered once for all into the Holy Place, taking not the blood of goats and calves but His own blood, thus securing an eternal redemption" Hebrews 9:6-12. Eternal redemption had not been secured on the cross.

In His ascension, He took His blood into the Holy Place in heaven "who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without blemish to God. . ." 9:13-14. Continuing, "Therefore He is the mediator of a new covenant, so that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance, since a death has occurred which redeems them from the transgressions under the first covenant." Then and there, in presenting his sacrifice to the Father, Jesus gained redemption [forgiveness] for Israel, thus opening the way into heaven for them. Please read the text on to Verse 24: "For Christ has entered, not into a sanctuary made with hands, a copy of the true one, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God on our behalf. . .But as it is, he has appeared once for all at the end of the age to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself."

How could there have been a 'body of Christ' [church] before Christ's atoning blood purchased it?

There could not have been Semi-Sweet .

[Semi-Sweet]

What I am saying is that it is our internal Spirit that takes on the likeness of the Holy Spirit as we grow and mature in Christ. The Holy Spirit was given to the Church as a whole thus affecting us as individuals. If we leave the Church can we carry the Holy Spirit off into our debauchery? No we cannot, becuase it is Holy and Righteous yet we can still leave the Church and die in that seperated condition.

I am looking at these verses in 1 Thes. 5:19 "Do not quench the Spirit." vs 20, "Do not despise the words of prophets." Phillips offers this rendering: "Never damp the fire of the Spirit, and never despise what is spoken in the name of the Lord." The exercise of God-given gifts must not be discouraged. Water is not to be poured on the flames of the Spirit. Spirit directed messages are not to be taken lightly.

1 Cor. 12:7, Paul says "To each is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good." If these are "miraculous" gifts or "inherent" abilities given us individually, either kind would be of the Spirit.

1 Cor 4:7, "What have you that you did not receive?". . . .If you received it, why do you boast as if it were not a gift?" Speaking to individuals.

I believe that it is important that we use the endowment given us and to encourage the exercise of the abilities given to others, being careful not to 'quench' the Spirit.

[Gem]

Boy, can we say snarky?



It would seem that Paul disagree's with you.

1 Corinthians 6:19

What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?

Galatians 2:20

I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the lifewhich I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me

In the book of Acts, we also see many example of believers being filled with the Holy Ghost. Here is but one.

Acts 2

4. And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

If in Acts we see believers FILLED with the Holy Ghost, and in Corinthians we find out that our body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, then it would seem that your claim that "(one can) not claim that (one has) the capacity to get the Holy Ghost because (one is) still a sinner in a fleshly coruptable body and the Holy Spirit is un-corruptable and righteous and cannot dwell inside of (one)," is simply incorrect according to scripture.

Thanks Fire Watch.

And you are very correct on this . I could not have said it better myself. :hug:

[Gem]

Boy, can we say snarky?



It would seem that Paul disagree's with you.

1 Corinthians 6:19

What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?

Galatians 2:20

I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the lifewhich I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me

In the book of Acts, we also see many example of believers being filled with the Holy Ghost. Here is but one.

Acts 2

4. And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

If in Acts we see believers FILLED with the Holy Ghost, and in Corinthians we find out that our body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, then it would seem that your claim that "(one can) not claim that (one has) the capacity to get the Holy Ghost because (one is) still a sinner in a fleshly coruptable body and the Holy Spirit is un-corruptable and righteous and cannot dwell inside of (one)," is simply incorrect according to scripture.

Thanks again Fire Watch.
Glad to see someone agree with me . :hug:

[Gem]

Cbut,
If God really wanted to lie He could.
After all, who could stop Him.

All things is possable with God and nothing is impossable with Him.

And you know as well we was not talking about God telling a lie.

[Gem]

I'm not understanding, or am puzzled by a couple of things in your above statement.

First there is the question of how Christ gives the Holy Spirit to the Church without giving it to individuals; isn't it individuals who make up the Church?

Second, how do you apply scripture that names specific individuals as being filled with the Holy Spirit?

Acts 4:8 - Peter, filled with the Holy Spirit, answered them...
Acts 6:5 - Stephen, a man full of faith and of the Holy Spirit...
Acts 8:29 - The Spirit said to Philip...
Acts 11:24 - Barnabas...a good man, full of the Holy Holy Spirit...

You are correct Meriweather . All of these was filled with the Holy ghost which is the Holy spirit. No one can make nothing else of it no matter how hard they try.

[Koushi Shinigami]

1 Thes. 5:19 "Do not quench the Spirit." ....



Water is not to be poured on the flames of the Spirit.


Hmmmm. :think: A verse in favor of sprinkling over dunking, perhaps?

[Semi-Sweet]

Hmmmm. :think: A verse in favor of sprinkling over dunking, perhaps?

Baptism and baptize comes from the Greek root bapto which means to dip. Hmmm

Three times baptism of the Holy Spirit is referred to as a pouring out of the Holy Spirit. Its falling in such a manner looks more like sprinkling than immersion. . . .Hmmm :think:

[Koushi Shinigami]

I can dip my hand in a bowl of water. Doesn't make me wet all over.

[Semi-Sweet]

I can dip my hand in a bowl of water. Doesn't make me wet all over.

No it doesn't. To dip more literally means to put a vessel into a liquid in order to lift some out. We have accepted a modification to make it mean 'to plunge', 'immerse', or 'submerge.' From Scripture examples, IMO, baptism can mean: pouring, sprinkling, washing, or anointing as well as dipping.

[Koushi Shinigami]

No it doesn't. To dip more literally means to put a vessel into a liquid in order to lift some out. We have accepted a modification to make it mean 'to plunge', 'immerse', or 'submerge.' From Scripture examples, IMO, baptism can mean: pouring, sprinkling, washing, or anointing as well as dipping.

Brings to mind the story of Achilles.

[Semi-Sweet]

Brings to mind the story of Achilles.

It does. . .

[Gem]

I want to say sorry for getting a little hot here at the Things Cbut said to me.

Talking to me like i was a child.

[cbut1]

While not debating that our own spirit grows more Christ-like as we grow and mature, I would also add that the Holy Spirit is independent of this. What is cold but the absence of heat, or darkness but the absence of light? To me, debauchery seems more like the absence of the Spirit--evil cannot exist with the Spirit.

So yes, I believe we can be filled with the Holy Spirit. I would tend to disagree with those who would state that the Holy Spirit's presence is marked by certain manifestations. Perhaps sometimes, yes--but I would not say always.


Bold is mine

Would you agree that mankind is comprised of Mind, Body, & Spirit? I think I know you well enough now to assume you to answer Yes.

The when one gets the Holy Spirit as GEM has termed it does mankind now have Mind, Body, Spirit, Holy Spirit. Or is it possibly to concieve that the Spirit within us takes on a similar nature to that of the Holy Spirit in much the same way our mind and bodies are to emmulate Christ?

[cbut1]

To cbut1

I disagree with your statement that we become like the Holy Spirit and that we can leave the Church and the Holy Spirit doesn't go with us, leaving us in a separated from God condition.

Your spirit is born again. Your very spirit is of God. Not something the Holy Spirit comes and goes from. The Christian is the Church. He cannot leave. The Holy Spirit of God goes where you go. You are of God.

You can quench and grieve the Holy Spirit, but the Holy Spirit will never leave the believer. The believer will never be separated from God as you incate.

Quantrill

Bold is mine


Really now.

Have you not heard of being a reprobate?

2Co 13:5 Try your own selves, whether ye are in the faith; prove your own selves. Or know ye not as to your own selves, that Jesus Christ is in you? unless indeed ye be reprobate.

Ok so a reprobate does not have Christ in him.

2Ti 3:8 And even as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also withstand the truth. Men corrupted in mind, reprobate concerning the faith.

Tit 1:13 This testimony is true. For which cause reprove them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith,

Tit 1:14 not giving heed to Jewish fables, and commandments of men who turn away from the truth.

Tit 1:15 To the pure all things are pure: but to them that are defiled and unbelieving nothing is pure; but both their mind and their conscience are defiled.

Tit 1:16 They profess that they know God; but by their works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.


Each one of these examples are dealing with those who were part of the Faith but have been given over to a reprobate state. As such according to what you just shared the Holy Spirit within them is now also reprobate: I think not!

[cbut1]

Cbut
You said you was a minister or pastor which ever it was.
By these questions you are asking me here is right out stupid.

I am a lot older than you young man, and have been living for God for years. Show some respect, quit talking to me like I am a child or dumb or something, and quit asking dumb questions like a child would.

If you do not get the Holy Ghost inside you then you are in a lot of trouble when the rapture comes. If the rapture comes today and you do not have the Holy Ghost inside your heart , you will go nowhere. you need to get real with God, thats what you need to do.

Allso , when you actually get down to real buisness and do some real praying and ask God to forgive you of your sins and really really mean it and really want the Holy ghost God will give it to you, He fills your heart with it.

And I saw another thread where you said you speak in tongues.
How can you speak in tongues unless God is inside you ? It cannot be done and be the real thing. you hear me Cbut. It cannot be done and be real if you do not have the Holy ghost inside you.

You talk like you know everything there is to know about God, well son, let me tell you that you have a long way to go yet.

My advice to you is to really get serious with God and really take the bible as His word and quit trying to change it by putting your twist on it.

Quit trying to change the way Gods word is writen in the bible.
and take it for what it says.
Cause that is exactly what you are doing.

If you will read the book of Acts you will see that all of the
Apostles got the Holy ghost inside them and spake in another tongue when they did it.

Its all through the book of acts.

God has all His gifts for you if you would really get down to buisness with Him and do what He says to do.

Do you understand that Cbut ? You can get all the gifts of the spirit if you really want them.


I don't know how old you are nor do I really care for it changes not what I said or asked; they were valid questions seeking clarity on your comments. Either offer the clarity asked or don't it is a free country and forum you know.

Yes I am a Preacher but not a Pastor yet it will be done in Gods timetable not mine.

I am fully aware of the gifts that are right there for the asking for one who is in Christ, the Holy Spirit does empower the faithful to accomplish much in this world all for the Glory of God.

Yes I speak in tongues (Greek, Spanish, a little French, an occasional German word in the mix just for kicks) I do not speak incoherant gibberish.



Ok so the Holy Ghost is inside of me, must He move over to make room for Christ also?

2Co 13:5 Try your own selves, whether ye are in the faith; prove your own selves. Or know ye not as to your own selves, that Jesus Christ is in you? unless indeed ye be reprobate.

Now I either have 5 aspects of what make up a human being (Mind, Body, Spirit, with additions of the Holy Spirit and Christ) all living inside of me. Or it is as I said that it is figurative language describing taking on the characteristics of the Holy Spirit and of Christ and exampling them out towards others.

My Children bear mine and my wifes characteristics they have us inside of them but not literally it is through the things that we write upon their hearts. As they grow and mature they will become more like us in many ways.

[cbut1]

Cbut,
If God really wanted to lie He could.
After all, who could stop Him.

All things is possable with God and nothing is impossable with Him.

And you know as well we was not talking about God telling a lie.

So now your saying Gods Word is wrong; this after your chastisment towards me being incorrect.

:think:

[cbut1]

No it doesn't. To dip more literally means to put a vessel into a liquid in order to lift some out. We have accepted a modification to make it mean 'to plunge', 'immerse', or 'submerge.' From Scripture examples, IMO, baptism can mean: pouring, sprinkling, washing, or anointing as well as dipping.

You have certainly accepted a modification of something.


βαπτίζω
baptizō
bap-tid'-zo

From a derivative of G911; to make whelmed (that is, fully wet); used only (in the New Testament) of ceremonial ablution, especially (technically) of the ordinance of Christian baptism: - baptist, baptize, wash.


G911
βάπτω
baptō
bap'-to
A primary verb; to whelm, that is, cover wholly with a fluid; in the New Testament only in a qualified or specific sense, that is, (literally) to moisten (a part of one’s person), or (by implication) to stain (as with dye): - dip.

[cbut1]

I want to say sorry for getting a little hot here at the Things Cbut said to me.

Talking to me like i was a child.

I asked you questions I did not say things to you, both are very different approaches of communication. I wanted your continued participation so that a productive conversation could be attained and enjoyed. I have been here in this forum for nearly 3 yrs now and enjoy a solid and peacful reputation with many. Ask around they will not be shy about it. Firewatch who you thanked for agreeing with you a little bit back has never once complained to me about anything I have posted. He is a Moderator and he would know if I was crossing a line.

Also if you ask Meri or Koushi they will confirm that my goal is never to put someone down it is only to challenge with scripture concepts that many of us hold to but yet most cannot prove with scripture.

[Quantrill]

To cut1

Your examples only prove my point. These people in the Scriptures you cited were never saved. They never had the Holy Spirit. They were never part of the Church, the Body of Christ. You will have them in every group of believers.

Your statement that the Holy Spirit is reprobate is not mine. Its yours. I never said it or indicated it.

Quantrill

[Quantrill]

To cbut1

Concerning point number 3 of the original list, just like there are different "houses" as in point 2, so there are different categories of sheep.

Matt. 10:6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

John 10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice;and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

Here you have two folds, two groups of believers. The believers of Israel. And the yet future believers of the Church. The verses given trying to prove point number 3 will be the sheep of Israel. Thus no proof at all that the Church existed at that time.

Quantrill

[Quantrill]

To cbut1

Concerning point number 4 of the original list, as with different houses, and sheep, you also have a different gospel. The gospel the list alludes to in Mark 1, Matt.10, and Luke 10, is not the gospel of grace preached by the Church. It is the gospel of the kingdom. Addrerssed specifically to Israel.

The gospel of the kingdom is "repent and be baptized". The gospel of Grace, for the Church, pertains to the identity of Jesus Christ and His work in His death, burial, and resurrection. See Matt. 3:1 and Matt. 16: 13-18, and 1Cor15: 1-4.

Which means the preaching of the gospel in point 4 is no proof that the Church existed prior to Pentacost.


Quantrill

[Meriweather]

Bold is mine

Would you agree that mankind is comprised of Mind, Body, & Spirit? I think I know you well enough now to assume you to answer Yes.

The when one gets the Holy Spirit as GEM has termed it does mankind now have Mind, Body, Spirit, Holy Spirit. Or is it possibly to concieve that the Spirit within us takes on a similar nature to that of the Holy Spirit in much the same way our mind and bodies are to emmulate Christ?

I may be beginning to grasp what you are saying. It seems to me what you describe about the Spirit within us taking on a similar nature as when we emulate Christ, you are stating (more or less) that our own spirit has been influenced by the Holy Spirit. This can be compared with us being influenced by stories of heroes--or the heroics of loved ones. Our own spirits are inspired and they grow and expand due to this influence. Yes, I see this.

However, I suggest that in order for my own spirit to be influenced to its utmost, it requires the actual presence of the Holy Spirit. The teachings and examples of Jesus have greatly influenced me, and I endeavor to emulate/incorporate Jesus' words and teachings in my own life. If I did not have these words and teachings, then I would have nothing to emulate, correct?

Nor do I need to have my Bible constantly in my hand for Jesus' influence to dwell within me. In the same way, I would argue that I do not need the Holy Spirit's continual Presence within me to be influenced. Let's take a look at John 3:8.

The wind blows where it wills, and you can hear the sound it makes, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes; so it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit.

I distinguish the Presence of the Holy Spirit from the influence of the Holy Spirit. It seems to me that you are describing leading a Spirit-filled life. That's fine, but I still believe that it took the Presence of the Spirit to prompt me into working on living a Spirit filled life. Do you see the distinction I am trying to describe?

I would guess my own thinking lies somewhere in between of what you are saying and what Gem and Fire Watch are explaining?

[Meriweather]

I asked you questions I did not say things to you, both are very different approaches of communication. I wanted your continued participation so that a productive conversation could be attained and enjoyed. I have been here in this forum for nearly 3 yrs now and enjoy a solid and peacful reputation with many. Ask around they will not be shy about it. Firewatch who you thanked for agreeing with you a little bit back has never once complained to me about anything I have posted. He is a Moderator and he would know if I was crossing a line.

Also if you ask Meri or Koushi they will confirm that my goal is never to put someone down it is only to challenge with scripture concepts that many of us hold to but yet most cannot prove with scripture.


I am happy to confirm this, Gem. What I saw in the post cbut1 made to you was invitation to further discourse. cbut1 is always civil and polite and it is never his intention to put down anyone. Like the rest of us, he enjoys discussing scripture and his beliefs. He is also wonderful about listening to other perspectives.

[Semi-Sweet]

You have certainly accepted a modification of something.


βαπτίζω
baptizō
bap-tid'-zo

From a derivative of G911; to make whelmed (that is, fully wet); used only (in the New Testament) of ceremonial ablution, especially (technically) of the ordinance of Christian baptism: - baptist, baptize, wash.


G911
βάπτω
baptō
bap'-to
A primary verb; to whelm, that is, cover wholly with a fluid; in the New Testament only in a qualified or specific sense, that is, (literally) to moisten (a part of one’s person), or (by implication) to stain (as with dye): - dip.

Words evolve. The current usage of a term may not convey the thought of the original word from which it developed. To ascertain the present-day sense of words, going back to their root meanings.

We all must worship God. Agreed. In many passages the word worship is rendered from proskuneo whose root meaning is to kiss toward. So the root word specifies the essential form of our approach to God as kissing toward God. Do we kiss toward God, or do we substitute some other method in our effort to worship Him?

Baptism and baptize come from the Greek root 'bapto' which means 'to dip'. So, that real meaning is undeniable by anyone who respects the authority of the Lord expressed in the Scriptures. Or is it?

When it comes to baptism, we have clung to the original root connotation of dipping and have resisted modification of the meaning of the word. The literal form has been kept sacred so that the meaning must always be to dip.

On the other hand, we have accepted some adaptation. To dip more literally means to put a vessel into a liquid in order to lift some out. We have accepted a modification to make it mean to plunge, immerse, or submerge. But those are literal meanings.

Does baptism have only a literal meaning of dipping, or could it be that time and usage had developed another more general connotation?

[Quantrill]

To cbut1

As to number 5 of the original list, this is the same power the Holy Spirit provided for those prophets under the Old Testament. As said before, though written in the New Testament, we are still on Old Testament ground.

This power of the Holy Spirit is not the same as the indwelling Holy Spirit of the Church, which was possible only after Pentacost.

Quantrill

[cbut1]

I may be beginning to grasp what you are saying. It seems to me what you describe about the Spirit within us taking on a similar nature as when we emulate Christ, you are stating (more or less) that our own spirit has been influenced by the Holy Spirit. This can be compared with us being influenced by stories of heroes--or the heroics of loved ones. Our own spirits are inspired and they grow and expand due to this influence. Yes, I see this.

However, I suggest that in order for my own spirit to be influenced to its utmost, it requires the actual presence of the Holy Spirit. The teachings and examples of Jesus have greatly influenced me, and I endeavor to emulate/incorporate Jesus' words and teachings in my own life. If I did not have these words and teachings, then I would have nothing to emulate, correct?

Nor do I need to have my Bible constantly in my hand for Jesus' influence to dwell within me. In the same way, I would argue that I do not need the Holy Spirit's continual Presence within me to be influenced. Let's take a look at John 3:8.

The wind blows where it wills, and you can hear the sound it makes, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes; so it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit.

I distinguish the Presence of the Holy Spirit from the influence of the Holy Spirit. It seems to me that you are describing leading a Spirit-filled life. That's fine, but I still believe that it took the Presence of the Spirit to prompt me into working on living a Spirit filled life. Do you see the distinction I am trying to describe?

I would guess my own thinking lies somewhere in between of what you are saying and what Gem and Fire Watch are explaining?

Yes my dear friend you are beginning to grasp what I am saying. Althought you seem to think that I am excluding the presence of the Holy Spirit when in fact I am not I am only saying that it's presence is not contained within us literally. Take Israel for example they had the Holy Spirit in the form of a cloud by day and fire by night guiding them and directing there every step in life. Everyone in Israel was directly affected by the Holy Spirit but they did not contain the Holy Spirit within themselves.

Another example is King Saul he was chosen by God to lead Israel and at one point he rebelled against God now if the Holy Spirit was in him did he lead the Holy Spirit to participate in sin? Surely not; so could it be that it was King Sauls spirit that turned from God and as such God removed the leadership of the Holy Spirit (as can be exampled seen with Samuel not talking to King Saul).

[cbut1]

Words evolve. The current usage of a term may not convey the thought of the original word from which it developed. To ascertain the present-day sense of words, going back to their root meanings.

We all must worship God. Agreed. In many passages the word worship is rendered from proskuneo whose root meaning is to kiss toward. So the root word specifies the essential form of our approach to God as kissing toward God. Do we kiss toward God, or do we substitute some other method in our effort to worship Him?

Baptism and baptize come from the Greek root 'bapto' which means 'to dip'. So, that real meaning is undeniable by anyone who respects the authority of the Lord expressed in the Scriptures. Or is it?

When it comes to baptism, we have clung to the original root connotation of dipping and have resisted modification of the meaning of the word. The literal form has been kept sacred so that the meaning must always be to dip.

On the other hand, we have accepted some adaptation. To dip more literally means to put a vessel into a liquid in order to lift some out. We have accepted a modification to make it mean to plunge, immerse, or submerge. But those are literal meanings.

Does baptism have only a literal meaning of dipping, or could it be that time and usage had developed another more general connotation?


Bold is mine

Only by those who wish to do things there way.

[Quantrill]

To cbut1

As to number 6 on the original list, this baptism was a baptism of water and not the Holy Spirit. This baptism was of repentance and for the kingdom of God preached by John the Baptist, then Jesus, then the disciples.

It offers no indication of the Church begining before Pentacost.

Quantrill

[cbut1]

To cut1

Your examples only prove my point. These people in the Scriptures you cited were never saved. They never had the Holy Spirit. They were never part of the Church, the Body of Christ. You will have them in every group of believers.

Your statement that the Holy Spirit is reprobate is not mine. Its yours. I never said it or indicated it.

Quantrill



You miss the point that these men listed (not Jannes and Jambres but the men they are similar to) are men that are counted as being a part of the faith. How can one be counted as being part of the faith yet not be saved. Answer they cannot, therefor they must have professed Christ as their saviour at some point and then turned away from Him.

2Ti 3:8 And even as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also withstand the truth. Men corrupted in mind, reprobate concerning the faith.

2Ti 3:9 But they shall proceed no further. For their folly shall be evident unto all men, as theirs also came to be.


Paul is comparing men in the Church in His day to the folly and foolishness of Jannes and Jambres trying to withstand against Moses. It is a comparison that is being drawn up here.

[Quantrill]

To cbut1

No, I did not miss your point. You are wrong in your point. There is no indication that these reprobates were ever saved. Just because they are reprobate concerning the faith, that faith which is Christian, does not mean they ever exercised faith.

Just as the example Paul gives of Jannes and Jambres. Religious, yes. Of God? Not at all. Reprobate concerning the true faith. And in the last days, 2Tim. 3:1-8, this will be common among men.

These reprobates may well be within Christianity functioning. But they are not saved and have not the Spirit of God in them.

Quantrill

[cbut1]

To cbut1

No, I did not miss your point. You are wrong in your point. There is no indication that these reprobates were ever saved. Just because they are reprobate concerning the faith, that faith which is Christian, does not mean they ever exercised faith.

Just as the example Paul gives of Jannes and Jambres. Religious, yes. Of God? Not at all. Reprobate concerning the true faith. And in the last days, 2Tim. 3:1-8, this will be common among men.

These reprobates may well be within Christianity functioning. But they are not saved and have not the Spirit of God in them.

Quantrill


Bold is mine

There is no way on Gods Green earth that you can make this claim. Salvation is between God and man when one confesses that Christ is the Son of God with a repentant heart it is a done deal. If one walks away after having done so then they will face a serious problem in the judgement. For have you not read what is written by Peter and then yet again by Jude.

2Pe 2:1 But there arose false prophets also among the people, as among you also there shall be false teachers, who shall privily bring in destructive heresies, denying even the Master that bought them, bringing upon themselves swift destruction.



2Pe 2:4 For if God spared not angels when they sinned, but cast them down to hell, and committed them to pits of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;

2Pe 2:5 and spared not the ancient world, but preserved Noah with seven others, a preacher of righteousness, when he brought a flood upon the world of the ungodly;

2Pe 2:6 and turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, having made them an example unto those that should live ungodly;


Jud 1:5 Now I desire to put you in remembrance, though ye know all things once for all, that the Lord, having saved a people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not.

Jud 1:6 And angels that kept not their own principality, but left their proper habitation, he hath kept in everlasting bonds under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

Jud 1:7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities about them, having in like manner with these given themselves over to fornication and gone after strange flesh, are set forth as an example, suffering the punishment of eternal fire.

Jud 1:8 Yet in like manner these also in their dreamings defile the flesh, and set at nought dominion, and rail at dignities.

Jud 1:10 But these rail at whatsoever things they know not: and what they understand naturally, like the creatures without reason, in these things are they destroyed.

Jud 1:11 Woe unto them! For they went in the way of Cain, and ran riotously in the error of Balaam for hire, and perished in the gainsaying of Korah.

Jud 1:12 These are they who are hidden rocks in your love-feasts when they feast with you, shepherds that without fear feed themselves; clouds without water, carried along by winds; autumn leaves without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots;




2Pe 2:20 For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein and overcome, the last state is become worse with them than the first.

2Pe 2:21 For it were better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after knowing it, to turn back from the holy commandment delivered unto them.


These verses are all speaking of men who were part of the Houshold of faith and yet turned from that faith in much the same way as Sodom and Gomorrah, Cain, Korah, and Balaam. Yet you say these men were not saved well my new friend that is a bold assertion that you cannot support by scripture.

[cbut1]

I am happy to confirm this, Gem. What I saw in the post cbut1 made to you was invitation to further discourse. cbut1 is always civil and polite and it is never his intention to put down anyone. Like the rest of us, he enjoys discussing scripture and his beliefs. He is also wonderful about listening to other perspectives.

Thank you my dear friend.

It is always good to have newbies join us so as to broaden our diversity of thought. It is also somewhat frustrating to meet newbies because for those of us that have been here for some time we have garnered a goodly relationship nearly akin to family, and newbies just don't know that until some time passes. Oh well those are the growing pains aren't they. :D

[Quantrill]

To cbut1

None of those you mention are of the household of faith. So I can certainly make this claim.

Concerning 2Peter 2:1, The Lord paid the price for all. That doesn't mean all are saved. It specifically states, " denying the Lord". Thus no salvation here.

Concerning 2Peter 2:4, Angels are a different category all together. No salvation offered. No salvation to lose. No Holy Spirit indwelling angels.

Concerning 2Peter 2:5-6, All who died in the flood of Noah were non-believers. All who died in Sodom and Gomorrah were non-believers.

Concerning Judges 1:5, Yes the Lord did save a people out of Egypt, that being Israel. He also destroyed those mixed with them that were not believers. The mixed multitude.

Concerning 2nd Peter 2:20-22, These are those who have escaped the pollutions of the world by knowledge and identifying with the people of God. They knew but did not take it. Not by faith. They are clean on the outside but not on the inside. Given the opportunity, they return as a dog to its vomit, and the sow to the mire.

Note, the dog is still a dog. The Sow still a sow. No change in nature.

There is none here that were saved and had the Holy Spirit to loose.

Quantrill

[cbut1]

To cbut1

None of those you mention are of the household of faith. So I can certainly make this claim.

Concerning 2Peter 2:1, The Lord paid the price for all. That doesn't mean all are saved. It specifically states, " denying the Lord". Thus no salvation here.

Concerning 2Peter 2:4, Angels are a different category all together. No salvation offered. No salvation to lose. No Holy Spirit indwelling angels.

Concerning 2Peter 2:5-6, All who died in the flood of Noah were non-believers. All who died in Sodom and Gomorrah were non-believers.

Concerning Judges 1:5, Yes the Lord did save a people out of Egypt, that being Israel. He also destroyed those mixed with them that were not believers. The mixed multitude.

Concerning 2nd Peter 2:20-22, These are those who have escaped the pollutions of the world by knowledge and identifying with the people of God. They knew but did not take it. Not by faith. They are clean on the outside but not on the inside. Given the opportunity, they return as a dog to its vomit, and the sow to the mire.

Note, the dog is still a dog. The Sow still a sow. No change in nature.

There is none here that were saved and had the Holy Spirit to loose.

Quantrill



You seem to have an inability to actually read what is right in front of you, Peter is comparing men in the Faith who have turned and behaved in a manner such as the ones named.

2Pe 2:20 For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein and overcome, the last state is become worse with them than the first.


Those are speaking of men who have been saved. Then they have turned away from the salvation (notice I did not say they lost their salvation) they did recieve, to again turn unto the worldly lusts and perversions. It is a frightful thing to fall into the hands of God.

[Quantrill]

To cbut1

No, I have no problem reading the passage. As I explained, knowlege does not save. These are those of self reformation. They identify with the believing yet they themselves do not believe.

There was no change in the nature. The dog returns to his vomit. The dog is still a dog. The pig returns to the mire. The pig is still a pig. These were dogs even when they were cleaned up. These were swine even when they were clean from the world. This is not a picture of one who is saved.

Yes, I agree, it is a fightful thing to fall into the hands of God, in judgement.

Quantrill

[xxthexxinvinciblexxone]

The church did exist before the day of pentecost! Remember, Jesus gave the Great Comission while he was still on earth (before the day of pentecost.) If the church began on the day of pentecost, then the church would not have a commision.

[Quantrill]

To xxthexxinviciblexxone

Just becasue the Great commission was given prior to Pentacost doesn't mean it was not for the Church. Neither does it mean the Church was in existance when it was given.

The people and structure were in place, yes, for the Church to begin. But the Church could not begin until its life element, the Holy Spirit, was sent to indwell. Thus they are commanded to "wait for the promise of the Father". Acts 1:4

Quantrill

[Quantrill]

To cbut1

Concerning point number 7 of the original list, the Lords Supper was instituted to be observed in Christs absence. "Do this in remembrance of Me". It was for the Church yet future.

Just as Christ promised in Matt. 16 that He would build His Church, future, so He does. Once the rejection by Israel has set in you will see instances where Jesus establishes a structure in preparation for the Church. Such as this Lords Supper. Such as Church discipline in Matt 18.

This is a transitional stage. Many who are Israel, would become the Church. The disciples who followed Christ and preached the Kingdom to Israel, would now make up the building blocks for the Church. Thus, in this transitional stage when Israel has rejected and the Church is yet future, structure and people are prepared for the Church.

Preparation for the future Church does not mean it exists at that time.


Quantrill

[cbut1]

Quantrill

I have offered scripture to support everything that I have stated and you have offered nothing but your opinion with no support, so if you want to be taken serious offer support for your statements.

[Quantrill]

To cbut1

Not quite. You have given Scriptures with your opinion of what they say. To which I diasagree and have explained why I disagree.

In other words the Scriptures you are using don't say what you say they are saying.

If you want to address any certain one, address it. I will respond.

Quantrill

[Meriweather]

Yes my dear friend you are beginning to grasp what I am saying. Althought you seem to think that I am excluding the presence of the Holy Spirit when in fact I am not I am only saying that it's presence is not contained within us literally. Take Israel for example they had the Holy Spirit in the form of a cloud by day and fire by night guiding them and directing there every step in life. Everyone in Israel was directly affected by the Holy Spirit but they did not contain the Holy Spirit within themselves.

No, I did not think you were excluding the presence of the Spirit; rather I was attempting to distinguish the presence of the Spirit from the influence of the Spirit, so that I might better understand the discussion. Since I think I'm now in the same, general ballpark as the rest of you, then we can take another look at scripture. I'm remembering verses that describe the presence of the Holy Spirit:

Filled with the Holy Spirit...
The Spirit overshadowed them...
The Spirt came upon them...
In the presence of the Lord...

I am cautious to speak for Gem or Fire Watch, but I have no reason to believe what the are describing is something on the order of multiple personalities--only in this case, multiple spirits--their own and that of the Holy Spirit. On the other hand, nor would I say 'influence' adequately describes being filled, overshadowed, in the presence, or having the Spirit come upon them.

[Quantrill]

To cbut1

As to point 8 of the original list, just because there are ordained ministries prior to Pentacost, doesn't mean the church existed.

All ministries of priests , prophets, Levites, etc, were ordained. But they were not the Church. At the begining of Christs earthly ministry, the emphasis was the gospel of the Kingdom being preached to Israel. Thus the ordination or authority to preach that was not due, from, or for the Church which did not exist. Thus Mark 3:14 does not speak to the Church.

1Cor.12 does speak to the Church. The Holy Spirit has come, indwelt men, and given gift ministries.

Quantrill

[cbut1]

No, I did not think you were excluding the presence of the Spirit; rather I was attempting to distinguish the presence of the Spirit from the influence of the Spirit, so that I might better understand the discussion. Since I think I'm now in the same, general ballpark as the rest of you, then we can take another look at scripture. I'm remembering verses that describe the presence of the Holy Spirit:

Filled with the Holy Spirit...
The Spirit overshadowed them...
The Spirt came upon them...
In the presence of the Lord...

I am cautious to speak for Gem or Fire Watch, but I have no reason to believe what the are describing is something on the order of multiple personalities--only in this case, multiple spirits--their own and that of the Holy Spirit. On the other hand, nor would I say 'influence' adequately describes being filled, overshadowed, in the presence, or having the Spirit come upon them.


Bold is mine

You may be right concerning them and that is why I am trying to figure their concept more clearly. I have known people who say that they literally have the Holy Spirit contained inside of them and if that is the case it is very contradictory to scripture. When in scripture it does use the words (such as you listed) it is speaking in a figurative way as to be describing a harmonious nature or characteristic.

[Fire Watch]

Bold is mine

You may be right concerning them and that is why I am trying to figure their concept more clearly. I have known people who say that they literally have the Holy Spirit contained inside of them and if that is the case it is very contradictory to scripture. When in scripture it does use the words (such as you listed) it is speaking in a figurative way as to be describing a harmonious nature or characteristic.
NO one has stated they have the Holy Ghost "contained" inside them. God is a qualitative being, not a quantitative being.

I have show scriptural proof that our bodies ARE the temple of the Holy Ghost, that the Holy Ghost DOES dwell in those that have recieved him.

Your assertion that it is contradictory to scripture is false. It may be contradictory to your opinion, but that's all it is..opinion and eisegesis.

Just because you have yet to experience it doesnt make it false...perhaps your lack of the experience is a direct result of your lack of understanding and belief..so you therefore mold scripture to fit your personal experience.

I for one do not claim that I have the capacity to get the Holy Ghost because I am still a sinner in a fleshly coruptable body and the Holy Spirit is un-corruptable and righteous and cannot dwell inside of me.
It would seem that Paul disagree's with you.

1 Corinthians 6:19

What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?

Galatians 2:20

I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the lifewhich I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me

In the book of Acts, we also see many example of believers being filled with the Holy Ghost. Here is but one.

Acts 2

4. And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

If in Acts we see believers FILLED with the Holy Ghost, and in Corinthians we find out that our body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, then it would seem that your claim that "(one can) not claim that (one has) the capacity to get the Holy Ghost because (one is) still a sinner in a fleshly coruptable body and the Holy Spirit is un-corruptable and righteous and cannot dwell inside of (one)," is simply incorrect according to scripture.


Your previous response to this is inadequate as all it is is pure eisegesis to mold scripture around your belief. You toss out clear statements to twist them into fitting your preconceived ideas.

Paul is speaking to the assembled Church and they are the body in which he is reffering.

1Co 1:1 Paul, called to be an apostle of Jesus Christ through the will of God, and Sosthenes our brother,

1Co 1:2 unto the church of God which is at Corinth, even them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that call upon the name of our Lord Jesus Christ in every place, their Lord and ours:

The same with Galatians:

Gal 1:1 Paul, an apostle (not from men, neither through man, but through Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead),

Gal 1:2 and all the brethren that are with me, unto the churches of Galatia:


Also with those in Acts

Act 2:1 And when the day of Pentecost was now come, they were all together in one place.

They Who?

Act 1:3 to whom he also showed himself alive after his passion by many proofs, appearing unto them by the space of forty days, and speaking the things concerning the kingdom of God:

Act 1:4 and, being assembled together with them, he charged them not to depart from Jerusalem, but to wait for the promise of the Father, which, said he, ye heard from me:

Act 1:13 And when they were come in, they went up into the upper chamber, where they were abiding; both Peter and John and James and Andrew, Philip and Thomas, Bartholomew and Matthew, James the son of Alphaeus, and Simon the Zealot, and Judas the son of James.

Act 1:14 These all with one accord continued stedfastly in prayer, with the women, and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with his brethren.

The Jerusalem assembly (Church)

Many take the verses just the way you did and apply them to individuals but the reality is context shows that it was a assembled body of believers that was being spoken to. Christ gave His Spirit to the Church because it is His body here on earth.

These statements you've provided were provided to congregations, but also to the individuals within those congregations. The scriptures I provided were meant to be taken personally, as an individual..

1 Corinthians 6:19

What? know ye(singular, personal, individual) not that your (singular personal) body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you,(singular, personal, individual) which ye ( singular, personal, individual) have of God, and ye (singular, personal, individual)are not your(singular, personal, individual) own?

Galatians 2:20

I (singular, personal, individual) have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I (singular, personal, individual) who live, but Christ lives in me (singular, personal, individual); and the lifewhich I(singular, personal, individual) now live in the flesh I (singular, personal, individual) live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me (singular, personal, individual) and gave Himself for me (singular, personal, individual)

Acts 2

4. And they were all (individuals) filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them (individuals) utterance.

[Fire Watch]

Another example is King Saul he was chosen by God to lead Israel and at one point he rebelled against God now if the Holy Spirit was in him did he lead the Holy Spirit to participate in sin? Surely not; so could it be that it was King Sauls spirit that turned from God and as such God removed the leadership of the Holy Spirit (as can be exampled seen with Samuel not talking to King Saul).

King Saul was an OT King. He lived under the law, not under grace. He lived before the Holy Ghost was poured out on the day of Pentecost. The gift of the Holy Ghost is a New Covenant experience.

I for the life of me cant figure out why Christians cannot distinguish the difference between OT and NT soteriology.

Why was there no command to be filled with the Holy Ghost until the book of Acts?

Acts 2:38

Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

It's because the Holy Ghost was not yet to sent.

John 14:16 (http://bibleresources.bible.com/passagesearchresults.php?passage1=John+14:16&version=9)
And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

John 14:26 (http://bibleresources.bible.com/passagesearchresults.php?passage1=John+14:26&version=9)
But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name,

John 15:26 (http://bibleresources.bible.com/passagesearchresults.php?passage1=John+15:26&version=9)
But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you

John 16:7 (http://bibleresources.bible.com/passagesearchresults.php?passage1=John+16:7&version=9)
Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

[Meriweather]

NO one has stated they have the Holy Ghost "contained" inside them. God is a qualitative being, not a quantitative being.

I have show scriptural proof that our bodies ARE the temple of the Holy Ghost, that the Holy Ghost DOES dwell in those that have recieved him.

Your assertion that it is contradictory to scripture is false. It may be contradictory to your opinion, but that's all it is..opinion and eisegesis.

Just because you have yet to experience it doesnt make it false...perhaps your lack of the experience is a direct result of your lack of understanding and belief..so you therefore mold scripture to fit your personal experience.


Perhaps where all our differences occur lies in what each of us means by having the Holy Spirit dwell in those who have received him. Everyone here is speaking of One God, correct, and understands God transcends the limitations of dwelling within a person?

The question also arises whether we have all experienced the same thing. For example, when CID and I were discussing this, the outpouring of the Spirit within him was manifested in speaking in Tongues; I understand much the same happened with you.

Yet with me, the manifestation was pretty much the direct opposite--I was speechless, because silence and saying nothing at all, said it best, said it (for me) in the most perfect way possible. That's why at the beginning, I was of the mind that what CID had experienced was different than what I had. As time (and discussion) went on I had to reconsider.

As cbut1 says, and you agree, it is not an additional spirit dwelling within--yet it is a great deal more than an 'influence', too. You say 'qualitative.' Well, yes, but that doesn't quite describe it, either, but maybe it's as close as we can get.

cbut1, perhaps consider flow or diffusion of the Holy Spirit within one's soul or inner being? Something greater than influence.

[Fire Watch]

As cbut1 says, and you agree, it is not an additional spirit dwelling within--
No, I certainly do not agree.

The Holy Ghost IS an additional spirit. The spirit of God. That spirit however is qualitative, not quantitative.

I explained this difference in another thread.

God is fully God no matter where He is. Its not possible for there to be more of God in one place than in another..or for only a part of God to be in one place but not another..or for more of God to dwell in one person than in another. This is because God is a qualitative being, not a quantitative being. God is of a divine quality, not a divine quantity. God is a Spirit and cannot be measured.

For something to possess the fullness of something in the material world demands that it possess all of the material substance. For the fullness of the coffee in a coffee pot to be in my cup requires that every drop of coffee fit in my cup. If all the coffee wonnt fit, the cup cant be said to contain the fullness of the coffee. Why? Its because coffee is a quantitative substance. God however, isnt a quantitative being, and therefore cant be measured like coffee. As a qualitative and omnipresent being God is everywhere..and everywhere God is..He's in His fullness.

The spirit of God does dwell in me, but I cannot contain God.

[Meriweather]

No, I certainly do not agree.

Okay, then I'm still having to work at understanding what you are explaining.

The Holy Ghost IS an additional spirit. The spirit of God. That spirit however is qualitative, not quantitative.

I explained this difference in another thread.

God is fully God no matter where He is. Its not possible for there to be more of God in one place than in another..or for only a part of God to be in one place but not another..or for more of God to dwell in one person than in another. This is because God is a qualitative being, not a quantitative being. God is of a divine quality, not a divine quantity. God is a Spirit and cannot be measured.

For something to possess the fullness of something in the material world demands that it possess all of the material substance. For the fullness of the coffee in a coffee pot to be in my cup requires that every drop of coffee fit in my cup. If all the coffee wonnt fit, the cup cant be said to contain the fullness of the coffee. Why? Its because coffee is a quantitative substance. God however, isnt a quantitative being, and therefore cant be measured like coffee. As a qualitative and omnipresent being God is everywhere..and everywhere God is..He's in His fullness.

The spirit of God does dwell in me, but I cannot contain God.

I cannot contain God, either, which is why my thoughts take me along this pathway:

In God I live and move and have my being. I don't so much think in terms of God residing in me, but me residing in God. Thinking in terms of God residing in me is a shift of perspective for me, and at the moment I suppose I'm feeling a little unbalanced by the shift in thought.

With your coffee analogy, it occurs to me that there the flavor in the coffee cup holds the exact same flavor as that in the coffee pot. The amounts might be different, but the flavor is exactly the same. (I don't know where I'm going with that, just that the thought occurred to me.)

[cbut1]

No, I certainly do not agree.

The Holy Ghost IS an additional spirit. The spirit of God. That spirit however is qualitative, not quantitative.

I explained this difference in another thread.



The spirit of God does dwell in me, but I cannot contain God.



Yeah see I think that is where my difficulty resides.

I do have an awakening within me of the Spirit but is it my Spirit maturing to be the reflection of the Holy Spirit or is it the Holy Spirit and my own Spirit is just sitting on the sideline in observance. Knowing or being humble enough to know that although I have the Lord as my Savior I am still in this corruptable body I cannot fathom how Gods Spirit is directly within me. I can see clearly that Gods Spirit is in the un-corruptable body of Christ and as I am a part of that it is more me in Him then Him in me.

[Quantrill]

To cbut1

As to number 9 of the original list of 20, these passages in Matt. 18:15-20 do speak to the Church, but it is yet future at this time. It concerns discipline and the authority to discipline. The language of the "binding and loosing" in vs.18 is the same as that in 16:19. And there it clearly states that the Church Christ is speaking of is yet future. "shall build"

Which is why, at that time, in 16:20, Christ told them not to tell anyone who He is. Whereas we who are of the Church, that is our very message.

Also, in 18:19, Christ promised to be in the midst of where any two or more are gathered, for this purpose of discipline. This will not be possible until after the resurrection and coming of the Holy Spirit.

So, though Church disipline is spoken of here prior to Pentacost, the Church does not yet exist.

Quantrill

[cbut1]

NO one has stated they have the Holy Ghost "contained" inside them. God is a qualitative being, not a quantitative being.

I have show scriptural proof that our bodies ARE the temple of the Holy Ghost, that the Holy Ghost DOES dwell in those that have recieved him.

Your assertion that it is contradictory to scripture is false. It may be contradictory to your opinion, but that's all it is..opinion and eisegesis.

Just because you have yet to experience it doesnt make it false...perhaps your lack of the experience is a direct result of your lack of understanding and belief..so you therefore mold scripture to fit your personal experience.


It would seem that Paul disagree's with you.

1 Corinthians 6:19

What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?

Galatians 2:20

I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the lifewhich I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me

In the book of Acts, we also see many example of believers being filled with the Holy Ghost. Here is but one.

Acts 2

4. And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

If in Acts we see believers FILLED with the Holy Ghost, and in Corinthians we find out that our body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, then it would seem that your claim that "(one can) not claim that (one has) the capacity to get the Holy Ghost because (one is) still a sinner in a fleshly coruptable body and the Holy Spirit is un-corruptable and righteous and cannot dwell inside of (one)," is simply incorrect according to scripture.


Your previous response to this is inadequate as all it is is pure eisegesis to mold scripture around your belief. You toss out clear statements to twist them into fitting your preconceived ideas.



These statements you've provided were provided to congregations, but also to the individuals within those congregations. The scriptures I provided were meant to be taken personally, as an individual..

1 Corinthians 6:19

What? know ye(singular, personal, individual) not that your (singular personal) body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you,(singular, personal, individual) which ye ( singular, personal, individual) have of God, and ye (singular, personal, individual)are not your(singular, personal, individual) own?

Galatians 2:20

I (singular, personal, individual) have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I (singular, personal, individual) who live, but Christ lives in me (singular, personal, individual); and the lifewhich I(singular, personal, individual) now live in the flesh I (singular, personal, individual) live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me (singular, personal, individual) and gave Himself for me (singular, personal, individual)

Acts 2

4. And they were all (individuals) filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them (individuals) utterance.



To break a bad piece of news to you but the word "Ye" is always plural it is never singular personal! The word "you" can be either plural or singular and context tells us which one is to be applied.

ye1   /yi/ [yee],

–pronoun 1. Archaic (except in some elevated or ecclesiastical prose), Literary, or British Dialect.

a. (used nominatively as the plural of thou, esp. in rhetorical, didactic, or poetic contexts, in addressing a group of persons or things): O ye of little faith; ye brooks and hills.

b. (used nominatively for the second person singular, esp. in polite address): Do ye not know me?

c. (used objectively in the second person singular or plural): I have something to tell ye. Arise, the enemy is upon ye!

[Quantrill]

To cbut1

As to number 10 of the oringinal list of 20, there is nothing in John 13:14 to indicate Christ is head of the Church. Lord and Master, yes, but nothing said about being the head of the Church.

In Ephesians 1:22-23 Jesus Christ most definitely is the Head of the Church. "...and gave him to be the head over all things to the church."

But look how and when He became the Head. Eph. 1:20 "Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places."

Christ is the Head of the Church only after He is risen and set at the right hand of God. The Holy Spirit would come down at Pentacost, after Christs ascencion. There was no Church until Christ rose and the Holy Spirit came down.

Quantrill

[Fire Watch]

To break a bad piece of news to you but the word "Ye" is always plural it is never singular personal! The word "you" can be either plural or singular and context tells us which one is to be applied.

ye1   /yi/ [yee],

–pronoun 1. Archaic (except in some elevated or ecclesiastical prose), Literary, or British Dialect.

a. (used nominatively as the plural of thou, esp. in rhetorical, didactic, or poetic contexts, in addressing a group of persons or things): O ye of little faith; ye brooks and hills.

b. (used nominatively for the second person singular, esp. in polite address): Do ye not know me?

c. (used objectively in the second person singular or plural): I have something to tell ye. Arise, the enemy is upon ye!

You do realize that "ye" is neither Aramaic, or Greek right? The context is quite clear.

http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=1Cr&c=6&v=19&t=KJV#conc/19

[Meriweather]

To break a bad piece of news to you but the word "Ye" is always plural it is never singular personal! The word "you" can be either plural or singular and context tells us which one is to be applied.

ye1   /yi/ [yee],

–pronoun 1. Archaic (except in some elevated or ecclesiastical prose), Literary, or British Dialect.

a. (used nominatively as the plural of thou, esp. in rhetorical, didactic, or poetic contexts, in addressing a group of persons or things): O ye of little faith; ye brooks and hills.

b. (used nominatively for the second person singular, esp. in polite address): Do ye not know me?

c. (used objectively in the second person singular or plural): I have something to tell ye. Arise, the enemy is upon ye!

I've been reflecting on this.

Perhaps. "Ye" may refer to the collective you, but the individual is part of the collective. The church does gather together, but we also go forth into separate lives and separate tasks.

I don't think you are saying the Spirit is only present when church members are gathered together or are working together?

The problem I have with Fire Watch's position of God's qualitative presence is that by definition God's Spirit would put mine into a total eclipse--which I see as negating free will.

The problem I have with your position is that "Influence" does not begin to describe the Presence of the Spirit. Influence is not Presence.

I've considered the scriptures you have both provided....Perhaps I need to reflect upon them further. There is still a piece that's missing. At least for me.

[Quantrill]

To cbut1

Concerning point number 11 of the original 20, these 120 in Acts 1 are not the Church at this time. Its only hours away from when they will, but they do not have the Holy Spirit at this time.

Concerning point number 12 of the 20, as these 120 are not the Church yet, neither is this a business meeting of the Church. Their purpose is to choose one to replace Judas Iscariot. Note their method of choosing. They used the lot. Acts 1:26.

The lot was a legitimate Old Testament method in determining the will of God. Pro.16:33. And it was legetimate for them to use here as they did not have the Holy Spirit.

Though the Church was just a chapter away from its begining, here in Acts 1 it has not started yet.

Quantrill

[cbut1]

You do realize that "ye" is neither Aramaic, or Greek right? The context is quite clear.

http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=1Cr&c=6&v=19&t=KJV#conc/19

Yes I do know but as your very own link provides evidence for what I have said which is Ye is always plural.

http://www.blueletterbible.org/search/translationResults.cfm?Criteria=know+ye&t=KJV

1Cr 6:19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost [which is] in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?

With that in mind I offer a possible understanding of this scripture.

1Cr 6:19 What? know ye (ya'll / you all) not that your body (assembly) is the temple of the Holy Ghost [which is] in you (either you individually or you all as a collective), which ye (ya'll) have of God, and ye (ya'll) are not your (ya'lls / your individual) own?

Now as I understand or percieve this verse and others like it to be saying is that Paul is telling them that all of you here (in Corinth) are the assembled Temple of God. Which the Holy Spirit abides in as gift from God and that which you do is not of your own.

See the Holy Spirit was sent yes as a Comforter but also to lead the Church in all the things Christ had taught them. If you look at it it isn't very different from how it was during the time of Israel deliverence from Egypt and enterence into the Promised land. The Spirit of God dwelt in the tabernacle and aaffected all the lives of Israel (in their midst) but it didn't dwell in a corruptable habitation of flesh man. Yet it did dwell in a consecrated vessel that God designed, well in the NT Christ is that vessel and His Church is where the Spirit of God dwells.

[Gem]

Okay, then I'm still having to work at understanding what you are explaining.



I cannot contain God, either, which is why my thoughts take me along this pathway:

In God I live and move and have my being. I don't so much think in terms of God residing in me, but me residing in God. Thinking in terms of God residing in me is a shift of perspective for me, and at the moment I suppose I'm feeling a little unbalanced by the shift in thought.

With your coffee analogy, it occurs to me that there the flavor in the coffee cup holds the exact same flavor as that in the coffee pot. The amounts might be different, but the flavor is exactly the same. (I don't know where I'm going with that, just that the thought occurred to me.)

There is no way that anyone could hold all of Gods spirit, you would explode. God is to hudge and to powerfull .

God gives you enough of the Holy Ghost to get you through and to serve Him. In Romans 8: 9- we find that if we do not have the spirit of Christ ( Holy Ghost ) inside of us we are none of His.
The Holy Ghost leads us, guides us, and directs us.

the Holy ghost is our teacher. John 14: 26. He is to bring all things to our remembrance and open our understanding of the word of God. It also refreshes us and gives us rest. IS 28: 11-12.

It is also to reveal things to come unto us, John 16: 13.
Many times He reveals hidden dangers to us and shows us in advance things that are coming to pass there is protection for His children. He also gives us power to witness, Acts 1: 8.


The greatest reason of all for receiving the holy Ghost is that we may be resurrected at His coming, Romans 8: 11. The hope of every Christian is to be resurrected to meet christ in the air.
but if His Spirit does not dwell in us, there will be nothing to quicken our mortal bodies to go meet Christ in the air when He comes to take us home to live with Him.

There is going to be a rapture of Gods people. and you will need the Holy ghost to make that flight to meet Jesus in the air.

The Holy ghost gives you power to do differant things .
The Holy ghost is the comforter.He gives us comfornt, meaning
that He sooths us in distress and sorrows; ease the misery of our grief; brings consolation and hope; gives us aid in time of trouble; encourages us;

you can compare receiving the Holy Ghost to a light bulb and a socket. the electricity is there all the time. You can't see it, but it is there. There will never be any light in that bulb until you turn on the switch. You see God wants to do more than just remove our sins; He wants to fill that empty space with His own spirit to give us power in our lives to overcome the devil, the world, and our own carnal nature.

You could not serve God the way He wants you to without the Holy Ghost.

God talks to you through the Holy ghost. He also talks to the people in the church through the Holy ghost.

God has differant kinds of gifts He wants us to have and He gives us , but without the Holy ghost inside you , you could not receive or use these gifts that God gives us.

The gifts are,
1- The gift of tongues.
2- The gift of Interpretation of tongues.
3- The gift of Prophecy
4- The gift of Healing
5- The gift of Disernment , discerning of spirits

This is just a few of the gifts God gives to use through the Holy ghost.

I my self have the gift of Prophecy and the gift of Discernment.

[Fire Watch]

Yes I do know but as your very own link provides evidence for what I have said which is Ye is always plural.

http://www.blueletterbible.org/search/translationResults.cfm?Criteria=know+ye&t=KJV

1Cr 6:19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost [which is] in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?

With that in mind I offer a possible understanding of this scripture.

1Cr 6:19 What? know ye (ya'll / you all) not that your body (assembly) is the temple of the Holy Ghost [which is] in you (either you individually or you all as a collective), which ye (ya'll) have of God, and ye (ya'll) are not your (ya'lls / your individual) own?

I simply fail to comprehend hwo someone can read it that way. Even if the "ye" were meant as a "y'all", which I do not believe it was...it would still read..."What? Dont you all know that your (individual) body is the temple of the Holy Ghost..ect. Especially given the context of all the other examples cited.

[Gem]

So now your saying Gods Word is wrong; this after your chastisment towards me being incorrect.

:think:

NOT SAYING GOD'S WORD IS WRONG.

God is God , all power nothing less.

but, if He really wanted to lie He could. Who is powerfull enough to stop Him from doing what ever He wanted to do. No One is.

but He wont because He is a righteous God, and Lying is not in Him.

[Gem]

I asked you questions I did not say things to you, both are very different approaches of communication. I wanted your continued participation so that a productive conversation could be attained and enjoyed. I have been here in this forum for nearly 3 yrs now and enjoy a solid and peacful reputation with many. Ask around they will not be shy about it. Firewatch who you thanked for agreeing with you a little bit back has never once complained to me about anything I have posted. He is a Moderator and he would know if I was crossing a line.

Also if you ask Meri or Koushi they will confirm that my goal is never to put someone down it is only to challenge with scripture concepts that many of us hold to but yet most cannot prove with scripture.

You were being a little snarky, like Firewatch was saying.
But I forgive you .

[Gem]

It is a difficult thing to answer because it has been a long held belief by many and even many in my own faith. The premise is here; God, Christ, Holy Spirit are all Holy and Righteous so much so that Christ when dyiing on the cross God turned away from Him for the sin that He bore. So how is it that the actuall Holy Spirit can abide inside a man even if he is saved he is still a sinner and God cannot abide sin. I propose those verses to be speaking about how those mens spirit was conformed of turned to be in harmony with the Holy Spirit.

Rom 8:16 The Spirit himself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are children of God:

Heb 10:14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

Heb 10:15 And the Holy Spirit also beareth witness to us; for after he hath said,

Heb 10:16 This is the covenant that I will make with them After those days, saith the Lord: I will put my laws on their heart, And upon their mind also will I write them; then saith he,

Rom 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God, sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

Rom 8:4 that the ordinance of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Rom 8:5 For they that are after the flesh mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
Rom 8:6 For the mind of the flesh is death; but the mind of the Spirit is life and peace:

Rom 8:7 because the mind of the flesh is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can it be:

Rom 8:8 and they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you. But if any man hath not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

Rom 8:10 And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the spirit is life because of righteousness.

Rom 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwelleth in you, he that raised up Christ Jesus from the dead shall give life also to your mortal bodies through his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

Rom 8:12 So then, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh:

Rom 8:13 for if ye live after the flesh, ye must die; but if by the Spirit ye put to death the deeds of the body, ye shall live.


Notice again he is speaking to the assembly as a whole and he is saying that as you learn to put away the flesh in your life and live by the spirit of mind and heart that is Christ then in like manner as Christ was raised so shall we. For it is His Spirit that beareth witness with our spirit that we are His.

Your children are a testimony to you regarding this Meri. Your children are intelligent, loving, gentle, patient, and thoughtful (according to the testimony you have shared with us) how did they get that way? I know they don't just come by it for no man ever has despite what Mikko and Koushi would like all to believe. :hug: No they come by it because they have you inside them (not literally) but in essence and teaching and maturity. Your laws are written upon their hearts and they reflect your being. In like manner we are to reflect Christ having the same Spirit (mindset heart persona) about us as He does, just as He does His Father.

Heb 1:1 In many ways and in various ways of old, God spoke to the fathers in the prophets;

Heb 1:2 in these last days He spoke to us in the Son, whom He appointed heir of all; through whom He indeed made the ages;

Heb 1:3 who being the shining splendor of His glory, and the express image of His essence, and upholding all things by the Word of His power, having made purification of our sins through Himself, He sat down on the right of the Majesty on high

God did not turn away from Jesus because of the sin He bore.
Thats the reason Jesus came in the flesh was to take on the sins of the world so every human would have a chance to be saved.

[Meriweather]

There is no way that anyone could hold all of Gods spirit, you would explode. God is to hudge and to powerfull .

God gives you enough of the Holy Ghost to get you through and to serve Him. In Romans 8: 9- we find that if we do not have the spirit of Christ ( Holy Ghost ) inside of us we are none of His.
The Holy Ghost leads us, guides us, and directs us.

the Holy ghost is our teacher. John 14: 26. He is to bring all things to our remembrance and open our understanding of the word of God. It also refreshes us and gives us rest. IS 28: 11-12.

It is also to reveal things to come unto us, John 16: 13.
Many times He reveals hidden dangers to us and shows us in advance things that are coming to pass there is protection for His children. He also gives us power to witness, Acts 1: 8.

I understand the quantitative part, and I'm not thinking in terms of holding ALL of God's spirit.

The greatest reason of all for receiving the holy Ghost is that we may be resurrected at His coming, Romans 8: 11. The hope of every Christian is to be resurrected to meet christ in the air.
but if His Spirit does not dwell in us, there will be nothing to quicken our mortal bodies to go meet Christ in the air when He comes to take us home to live with Him.

There is going to be a rapture of Gods people. and you will need the Holy ghost to make that flight to meet Jesus in the air.

I do not agree with this interpretation called rapture.

The Holy ghost gives you power to do differant things .
The Holy ghost is the comforter.He gives us comfornt, meaning
that He sooths us in distress and sorrows; ease the misery of our grief; brings consolation and hope; gives us aid in time of trouble; encourages us;

you can compare receiving the Holy Ghost to a light bulb and a socket. the electricity is there all the time. You can't see it, but it is there. There will never be any light in that bulb until you turn on the switch. You see God wants to do more than just remove our sins; He wants to fill that empty space with His own spirit to give us power in our lives to overcome the devil, the world, and our own carnal nature.

You could not serve God the way He wants you to without the Holy Ghost.

God talks to you through the Holy ghost. He also talks to the people in the church through the Holy ghost.

Receiving the Holy Spirit? It's like flipping a switch? I cannot serve God the way He wants without the Holy Spirit?

I'm not relating to any of this.

God has differant kinds of gifts He wants us to have and He gives us , but without the Holy ghost inside you , you could not receive or use these gifts that God gives us.

The gifts are,
1- The gift of tongues.
2- The gift of Interpretation of tongues.
3- The gift of Prophecy
4- The gift of Healing
5- The gift of Disernment , discerning of spirits

This is just a few of the gifts God gives to use through the Holy ghost.

I have none of these.

I my self have the gift of Prophecy and the gift of Discernment.

You are very blessed, then.

[Meriweather]

You were being a little snarky, like Firewatch was saying.
But I forgive you .


cbut1, if that was snarky, you need lessons. At least one of my posts have been elevated to vile, so I appear to be imminently qualified. ;)

[Gem]

cbut1, if that was snarky, you need lessons. At least one of my posts have been elevated to vile, so I appear to be imminently qualified. ;)



:hug:

[Quantrill]

To cbut 1

As to point 13 of the list of 20, to say Judas Iscariot was treasurer of the Church simply assumes the 12 disciples were the Church. Judas Iscariot was the treasurer of the 12 disciples only, not the Church.

As to point 14 of the 20, Yes. The 3OOO were part of the Church. Acts 2:47 But you will see that Pentacost has arrived, the Holy Spirit has come. The Church has begun. Acts 2:1

As to point 15 of the 20, the Great Commission was gvien between the Resurrection and the coming of the Holy Spirit. Though everything and everyone was in place for the Church to begin, it had not yet started. Thus they were to wait until the coming of the Spirit before they went out with this message. Acts 1:4

Quantrill

[Quantrill]

To cbut1

Concerning point 16 of the original 20, the verse in Matt. 16:18 says, "...upon this rock I will build my church;....". "Will" build. Future. Not "am building". The Church is not there.

Concerning point 17 of the 20, nothing here proves the Church is in existance. As said before under point 12, it was just a choosing of one to replace Judas Iscariot. This is only true if the assumption is already made that the 12 disciples are in the Church.

Concerning point 18 of the 20, the bridegroom, Jesus, in John 3:39, is present but nothing is said of the Church which is a bride. So, nothing here to indicate the Church has begun.

Quantrill

[trettep]

The Church would comprise all the chosen of God. Even David and Moses are of the Church that is founded on Christ.

Paul

[Quantrill]

To cbut1

Concerning point 19 of the original 20, that Hebrews 2:12 identifies Psalms 22:22 to the Church is undeniable. But it does not identifiy it with the hymn sung by the Lord, and the disciples at the Last Supper.

When you look at Psalms 22 you will see the crucifixtion taking place in the verses preceeding 22. Then you have Christ singing among His brethren the Church. Crucifixtion first, singing with the Church later. At the time of the Lords Supper Jesus had not yet been crucified.

Of course the disciples at the Last Supper would soon be part of the Church. But not until the Holy Spirit comes to form that new body of believers.

Quantrill

[Quantrill]

To cbut1

As to point 20 of the original list of 20, yes there is Scripture that indicates the Church began at Pentacost.

1Cor.12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, ....

Col. 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the begining, the firstborn from the dead;....

Eph. 1:20-23 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places...And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over allthings to the church, Which is his body,....

To be a member of the body of Christ, the Church, you have to be baptized into it by the Holy Spirit. This is that same Spirit that raised Christ from the dead and set Him at the right hand of God.

That same Spirit that raised Christ and dwells in Christ, raised those who believe and dwells in them also. The church. The Head is in the heavens and the body on the earth. In unity by that Holy Spirit.

There can be no Church until the Holy Spirit comes at Pentacost to do that work.

Quantrill

[trettep]

To cbut1

As to point 20 of the original list of 20, yes there is Scripture that indicates the Church began at Pentacost.

1Cor.12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, ....

Col. 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the begining, the firstborn from the dead;....

Eph. 1:20-23 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places...And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over allthings to the church, Which is his body,....

To be a member of the body of Christ, the Church, you have to be baptized into it by the Holy Spirit. This is that same Spirit that raised Christ from the dead and set Him at the right hand of God.

That same Spirit that raised Christ and dwells in Christ, raised those who believe and dwells in them also. The church. The Head is in the heavens and the body on the earth. In unity by that Holy Spirit.

There can be no Church until the Holy Spirit comes at Pentacost to do that work.

Quantrill

All the Prophets had the Spirit, long before Pentacost.

Act 7:38 This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:

Paul

[Quantrill]

To Trettep

The Holy Spirit prior to Pentacost could come upon the prophets in power to perform certain tasks. He could then just as easily leave. The Holy Spirit did not indwell and form that new body of believers, the Body of Christ, until Pentacost.

The word "church" can speak to any group of people. The "church" in the wilderness was not the "Body of Christ".

Quantrill

[cbut1]

To Trettep

The Holy Spirit prior to Pentacost could come upon the prophets in power to perform certain tasks. He could then just as easily leave. The Holy Spirit did not indwell and form that new body of believers, the Body of Christ, until Pentacost.

The word "church" can speak to any group of people. The "church" in the wilderness was not the "Body of Christ".

Quantrill


The word Church CANNOT speak to any group of people. The word is specific in its meaning:

ἐκκλησία
ekklēsia
ek-klay-see'-ah

From a compound of G1537 and a derivative of G2564; a calling out, that is, (concretely) a popular meeting, especially a religious congregation (Jewish synagogue, or Christian community of members on earth or saints in heaven or both): - assembly, church.


It is a called out people and for it to be lawful it has to be a specific calling out such as one can see in the example here in:

Act 19:35 And when the townclerk had quieted the multitude, he saith, Ye men of Ephesus, what man is there who knoweth not that the city of the Ephesians is temple-keeper of the great Diana, and of the image which fell down from Jupiter?

Act 19:36 Seeing then that these things cannot be gainsaid, ye ought to be quiet, and to do nothing rash.

Act 19:37 For ye have brought hither these men, who are neither robbers of temples nor blasphemers of our goddess.

Act 19:38 If therefore Demetrius, and the craftsmen that are with him, have a matter against any man, the courts are open, and there are proconsuls: let them accuse one another.

Act 19:39 But if ye seek anything about other matters, it shall be settled in the regular assembly.

Act 19:40 For indeed we are in danger to be accused concerning this day's riot, there being no cause for it: and as touching it we shall not be able to give account of this concourse.

Act 19:41 And when he had thus spoken, he dismissed the assembly.


This assembly (ekklesia) gathered together in an un-lawful manner and when it was quieted down enough for one to point that out they dispersed. Christs ekklesia is a Lawfully called out assembly and it started when He gathered men unto Himself by the seashore. He is the head the Spirit was with Him and He called men unto Himself (the Body) these are facts and cannot be denied.

[Quantrill]

Yes, the word "church" speaks to a group of people called or gathered for a specific purpose. But, as I said, it can be any group of people. Just because the word "ekklesia" is used, does not mean it speaks to the Church which is the Body of Christ.

You present "facts" you say cannot be denied. But I do deny them when you say they represent the Church started when Christ called the disciples.

As I have answered all of your 20 so called proofs.


Quantrill

[Vradic]

First let me say I do not know this person nor do I know anyone who does. I do not claim to agree nor disagree with what the author has written but I find it an interesting topic that I think others may enjoy participating in discussion in.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
by Pastor Greg Wilson

<...clip...>
20. There is NO Scripture anywhere to indicate that the church began at Pentecost.

To disprove the last first: This is Peter speaking...
Act 11:12 "The Spirit told me to go with them without misgivings. These six brethren also went with me and we entered the man's house.
Act 11:13 "And he reported to us how he had seen the angel standing in his house, and saying, 'Send to Joppa and have Simon, who is also called Peter, brought here;
Act 11:14 and he will speak words to you by which you will be saved, you and all your household.'
Act 11:15 "And as I began to speak, the Holy Spirit fell upon them just as {He did} upon us at the beginning.
Act 11:16 "And I remembered the word of the Lord, how He used to say, 'John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.'

Peter clearly says the instance of the Holy Spirit falling on them when they spoke with languages they didn't study was "the beginning". This happened on the day of Pentecost. What could this possibly have begun, if not the Church as the body of Christ?

I do think it's good, however, to have pointed out that the term translated "church" is really more of a gathered assembly than a separate incorporated entity. All Christians have been called to Christ, and have answered the call. After than, any congregation of Christians is an assembly, or "church". In between, there is no organizational structure, according to the Biblical record.

[cbut1]

Mat 3:15 But Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffereth him.

Mat 3:16 And Jesus when he was baptized, went up straightway from the water: and lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending as a dove, and coming upon him;

Mat 3:17 and lo, a voice out of the heavens, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.


All parties present are John the Baptist (the one with the authority from God), Christ, the Holy Spirit, and The Father.

Mat 4:17 From that time began Jesus to preach, and to say, Repent ye; for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

Mat 4:18 And walking by the sea of Galilee, he saw two brethren, Simon who is called Peter, and Andrew his brother, casting a net into the sea; for they were fishers.

Mat 4:19 And he saith unto them, Come ye after me, and I will make you fishers of men.

Mat 4:20 And they straightway left the nets, and followed him.

Mat 4:21 And going on from thence he saw two other brethren, James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother, in the boat with Zebedee their father, mending their nets; and he called them.

Mat 4:22 And they straightway left the boat and their father, and followed him.

Mat 4:23 And Jesus went about in all Galilee, teaching in their synagogues, and preaching the gospel of the kingdom, and healing all manner of disease and all manner of sickness among the people.


Ok so Now we have Christ the Head of the Church present with the authority to fulfill all righteousness conferred upon Him through Baptism and the Holy Spirit abiding with Him all of this is pleasing God the Father. Then Christ calls men unto Him and continues to teach and heal.

Joh 16:1 These things have I spoken unto you, that ye should not be caused to stumble.

Joh 16:2 They shall put you out of the synagogues: yea, the hour cometh, that whosoever killeth you shall think that he offereth service unto God.

Joh 16:3 And these things will they do, because they have not known the Father, nor me.

Joh 16:4 But these things have I spoken unto you, that when their hour is come, ye may remember them, how that I told you. And these things I said not unto you from the beginning, because I was with you.

Joh 16:5 But now I go unto him that sent me; and none of you asketh me, Whither goest thou?

Joh 16:6 But because I have spoken these things unto you, sorrow hath filled your heart.

Joh 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth: It is expedient for you that I go away; for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I go, I will send him unto you.

Joh 16:8 And he, when he is come, will convict the world in respect of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

Joh 16:9 of sin, because they believe not on me;

Joh 16:10 of righteousness, because I go to the Father, and ye behold me no more;

Joh 16:11 of judgment, because the prince of this world hath been judged.

Joh 16:12 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.

Joh 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he shall guide you into all the truth: for he shall not speak from himself; but what things soever he shall hear, these shall he speak: and he shall declare unto you the things that are to come.


Ok so Christ isand has been teaching His disciples mnany things and now he is teaching them more about His soon departure. He is only telling them now that they are going to be Comforted by the Comforter that He is going to send. The reason He is only now telling them is because He was with them from the beginning. When the Comforter comes he will lead them to remember all that He has taught them and to guide them, yet they must wait for the Comforter before they act.

Act 1:3 to whom he also showed himself alive after his passion by many proofs, appearing unto them by the space of forty days, and speaking the things concerning the kingdom of God:

Act 1:4 and, being assembled together with them, he charged them not to depart from Jerusalem, but to wait for the promise of the Father, which, said he, ye heard from me:

Act 1:12 Then returned they unto Jerusalem from the mount called Olivet, which is nigh unto Jerusalem, a Sabbath day's journey off.

Act 1:13 And when they were come in, they went up into the upper chamber, where they were abiding; both Peter and John and James and Andrew, Philip and Thomas, Bartholomew and Matthew, James the son of Alphaeus, and Simon the Zealot, and Judas the son of James.

Act 1:14 These all with one accord continued stedfastly in prayer, with the women, and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with his brethren.

So they were assembled together by Christs instruction to wait in Jerusalem for the Promise.

Act 2:1 And when the day of Pentecost was now come, they were all together in one place.

Act 2:2 And suddenly there came from heaven a sound as of the rushing of a mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.

Act 2:3 And there appeared unto them tongues parting asunder, like as of fire; and it sat upon each one of them.

Act 2:4 And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

Being assembled as they were instructed by Christ before the day of Pentecost then the big day arrives and they were still assembled as Christ instructed. The Holy Spirit comes upon the whole group of them (yes as individuals but it was as they were assembled together as one Body) The body being the NT Temple of God is now dwelt in by the Holy Spirit affecting all those in the assembly as they witnessed to those outside of the assembly. Now here comes the little kicker.

Act 2:37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and the rest of the apostles, Brethren, what shall we do?

Act 2:38 And Peter said unto them, Repent ye, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ unto the remission of your sins; and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Act 2:39 For to you is the promise, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call unto him.

Act 2:40 And with many other words he testified, and exhorted them, saying, Save yourselves from this crooked generation.

Act 2:41 They then that received his word were baptized: and there were added unto them in that day about three thousand souls.


You cannot add to something that just happened now can you? No you add to something that had prior existence. Notice how many times Christ just in the fw selected verse called out men and assembled them unto Himself, That is the Chief Cornerstone in action my friends.

[Gem]

Mat 3:15 But Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffereth him.

Mat 3:16 And Jesus when he was baptized, went up straightway from the water: and lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending as a dove, and coming upon him;

Mat 3:17 and lo, a voice out of the heavens, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.


All parties present are John the Baptist (the one with the authority from God), Christ, the Holy Spirit, and The Father.

Mat 4:17 From that time began Jesus to preach, and to say, Repent ye; for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

Mat 4:18 And walking by the sea of Galilee, he saw two brethren, Simon who is called Peter, and Andrew his brother, casting a net into the sea; for they were fishers.

Mat 4:19 And he saith unto them, Come ye after me, and I will make you fishers of men.

Mat 4:20 And they straightway left the nets, and followed him.

Mat 4:21 And going on from thence he saw two other brethren, James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother, in the boat with Zebedee their father, mending their nets; and he called them.

Mat 4:22 And they straightway left the boat and their father, and followed him.

Mat 4:23 And Jesus went about in all Galilee, teaching in their synagogues, and preaching the gospel of the kingdom, and healing all manner of disease and all manner of sickness among the people.


Ok so Now we have Christ the Head of the Church present with the authority to fulfill all righteousness conferred upon Him through Baptism and the Holy Spirit abiding with Him all of this is pleasing God the Father. Then Christ calls men unto Him and continues to teach and heal.

Joh 16:1 These things have I spoken unto you, that ye should not be caused to stumble.

Joh 16:2 They shall put you out of the synagogues: yea, the hour cometh, that whosoever killeth you shall think that he offereth service unto God.

Joh 16:3 And these things will they do, because they have not known the Father, nor me.

Joh 16:4 But these things have I spoken unto you, that when their hour is come, ye may remember them, how that I told you. And these things I said not unto you from the beginning, because I was with you.

Joh 16:5 But now I go unto him that sent me; and none of you asketh me, Whither goest thou?

Joh 16:6 But because I have spoken these things unto you, sorrow hath filled your heart.

Joh 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth: It is expedient for you that I go away; for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I go, I will send him unto you.

Joh 16:8 And he, when he is come, will convict the world in respect of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

Joh 16:9 of sin, because they believe not on me;

Joh 16:10 of righteousness, because I go to the Father, and ye behold me no more;

Joh 16:11 of judgment, because the prince of this world hath been judged.

Joh 16:12 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.

Joh 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he shall guide you into all the truth: for he shall not speak from himself; but what things soever he shall hear, these shall he speak: and he shall declare unto you the things that are to come.


Ok so Christ isand has been teaching His disciples mnany things and now he is teaching them more about His soon departure. He is only telling them now that they are going to be Comforted by the Comforter that He is going to send. The reason He is only now telling them is because He was with them from the beginning. When the Comforter comes he will lead them to remember all that He has taught them and to guide them, yet they must wait for the Comforter before they act.

Act 1:3 to whom he also showed himself alive after his passion by many proofs, appearing unto them by the space of forty days, and speaking the things concerning the kingdom of God:

Act 1:4 and, being assembled together with them, he charged them not to depart from Jerusalem, but to wait for the promise of the Father, which, said he, ye heard from me:

Act 1:12 Then returned they unto Jerusalem from the mount called Olivet, which is nigh unto Jerusalem, a Sabbath day's journey off.

Act 1:13 And when they were come in, they went up into the upper chamber, where they were abiding; both Peter and John and James and Andrew, Philip and Thomas, Bartholomew and Matthew, James the son of Alphaeus, and Simon the Zealot, and Judas the son of James.

Act 1:14 These all with one accord continued stedfastly in prayer, with the women, and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with his brethren.

So they were assembled together by Christs instruction to wait in Jerusalem for the Promise.

Act 2:1 And when the day of Pentecost was now come, they were all together in one place.

Act 2:2 And suddenly there came from heaven a sound as of the rushing of a mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.

Act 2:3 And there appeared unto them tongues parting asunder, like as of fire; and it sat upon each one of them.

Act 2:4 And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

Being assembled as they were instructed by Christ before the day of Pentecost then the big day arrives and they were still assembled as Christ instructed. The Holy Spirit comes upon the whole group of them (yes as individuals but it was as they were assembled together as one Body) The body being the NT Temple of God is now dwelt in by the Holy Spirit affecting all those in the assembly as they witnessed to those outside of the assembly. Now here comes the little kicker.

Act 2:37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and the rest of the apostles, Brethren, what shall we do?

Act 2:38 And Peter said unto them, Repent ye, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ unto the remission of your sins; and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Act 2:39 For to you is the promise, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call unto him.

Act 2:40 And with many other words he testified, and exhorted them, saying, Save yourselves from this crooked generation.

Act 2:41 They then that received his word were baptized: and there were added unto them in that day about three thousand souls.


You cannot add to something that just happened now can you? No you add to something that had prior existence. Notice how many times Christ just in the fw selected verse called out men and assembled them unto Himself, That is the Chief Cornerstone in action my friends.

---------------------------------------------------------------
CbutI
I know you were not talking to me here in this thread.
but this thread does give me a chance to explain to you what happens to you when you get the Holy ghost.

This is what happened to me when I got filled with the Holy ghost.
This is what I was trying to tell you before. I did not have to ambush it to get it, or catch it , if your heart is right with God and you want it bad enough, it just happens to you. Thats is all I was trying to say to you.



Acts 2: 4-
And they were all filled ( not on but was filled up ) with the Holy Spirit as the Spirit gave the utterance.

This was not a languish that they learned in school or any where else. this is a languish from God as evidence that you have received the Holy ghost.

[gpd®]

Oh come on you guys, everyone knows the church started in 1907 on Azusa St. in Los Angeles......j/k,j/k,j/k

[Quantrill]

To cbut1

I will answer your last statement only as all others have already been addressed.

Concerning the 3000 added to the Church, these were not the first in the Church. The disciples were first indwelt by the Holy Spirit. Acts 2:1 " And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place."

Acts 2:4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost,... This is the disciples now part of the Church.

Then Peter preaches to other Jews. Acts 2:22 " Ye men of Israel..."

Then the 3000 were added. Acts 2:41.

The 3000 were added to the disciples.

Quantrill

[cbut1]

---------------------------------------------------------------
CbutI
I know you were not talking to me here in this thread.
but this thread does give me a chance to explain to you what happens to you when you get the Holy ghost.

This is what happened to me when I got filled with the Holy ghost.
This is what I was trying to tell you before. I did not have to ambush it to get it, or catch it , if your heart is right with God and you want it bad enough, it just happens to you. Thats is all I was trying to say to you.



Acts 2: 4-
And they were all filled ( not on but was filled up ) with the Holy Spirit as the Spirit gave the utterance.

This was not a languish that they learned in school or any where else. this is a languish from God as evidence that you have received the Holy ghost.






First I understand what is being said and I do have a testimony of Salvation which you could read in the Share Your Testimony thread.

http://forums.hannity.com/showpost.php?p=27414491&postcount=9

As far as the rest goes I think we have offered our perspectives and it is incumbant upon those curious enough to know the truth to ask God to allow His Spirit to lead them to the answers.

[Meriweather]

First I understand what is being said and I do have a testimony of Salvation which you could read in the Share Your Testimony thread.

http://forums.hannity.com/showpost.php?p=27414491&postcount=9

As far as the rest goes I think we have offered our perspectives and it is incumbant upon those curious enough to know the truth to ask God to allow His Spirit to lead them to the answers.

For me, it brought about some interesting reflections. It seems I can relate more easily to scriptures that phrase it as the Holy Spirit coming upon one, what I began thinking of as the Presence of the Holy Spirit. In another thread CID helped clarify my thinking on the Holy Spirit dwelling within--and used conscience as an example of the Spirit's presence. That is when I could relate more to Fire Watch's two spirits being present in one--our own and the Holy Spirit.

There is no denying, however, that as you say, cbut1, the Holy Spirit has had a definite influence on my own spirit--that it is my own spirit, which has been so greatly influenced by the Holy Spirit, that acts--not the Holy Spirit Himself.

[Meriweather]

My final conclusion is that my original way of thinking about it describes it more accurately than being filled with the Holy Spirit or being influenced by the Holy Spirit. That original, and continued way of thinking is,

In God we live, and move, and have our being. This most accurately describes everything: The Holy Spirit coming upon one (Presence); that our very being is therefore diffused (filled) by the Holy Spirit's presence; which is a tremendous influence of one's self and one's life.

[cbut1]

Amen