This is SERIOUSLY messed up.

[FatRepublican]

http://board.hondasociety.com/showthread.php?t=38461&page=1&pp=30

Read the first three pages of that thread to see what I'm talking about.

After that is pretty much just a bunch of people cursing and yelling, so beware if you decide to venture further than page three.

Some people do not deserve to breath my air.

[Lera]

holy ****

did you click on the links on page 3...OMG

[Lera]

http://msnbc.msn.com/id/10479896/ Here is the story.

[FatRepublican]

Indeed.

That woman is horrible.

[Lera]

I didn't know what to expect as I was reading it. Then when I clicked on the link and read it...I too was in shock like most of the posters were.

[JenyEliza]

Wow...that really IS messed up. She almost pulled it off on that message board...had 'em all believing she was the poor grieving widow until this poster found a bunch of dirt on her:

http://board.hondasociety.com/showpost.php?p=1339257&postcount=75


Marine wife accused of poisoning husband ]Woman charged with first-degree murder for financial gain
The Associated Press
Updated: 11:07 a.m. ET Dec. 15, 2005

SAN DIEGO - Cynthia Sommer didn’t fit the role of a grieving Marine widow.

Shortly after her husband died suddenly, she hosted boisterous parties at her home on the base. Authorities say she showed Marine wives her newly enhanced breasts — paid for with her husband’s life insurance policy. And within two months, she had taken up with another man.
Military investigators say Sommer wanted a life that was out of her reach as a mother of four working at a Subway restaurant and married to a strict Marine — and she allegedly poisoned her husband with arsenic to get it.

Sommer, 32, is in a Palm Beach County, Fla. jail fighting extradition back to San Diego. She is charged with first-degree murder for financial gain, a special circumstance that could carry the death penalty. The San Diego County district attorney’s office has not yet decided whether to seek it, prosecutor Laura Gunn said.

Sommer’s Florida attorney, Robert Gentile, did not return a message left seeking comment Wednesday. Her next court hearing is scheduled for Jan. 4 in Florida.

High arsenic levels
Marine Sgt. Todd Sommer, 23, died in February 2002 in his home at Marine Corps Air Station Miramar in San Diego. His death initially was ruled a heart attack, but tests of his liver later found levels of arsenic 1,020 times above normal, court documents show. Arsenic is a colorless and usually tasteless poison that causes stomach distress followed by death.

Following a lengthy investigation by military and civilian authorities, the San Diego County Medical Examiner concluded in October 2005 that the cause of death was acute arsenic poisoning.

Only his wife had the motive or the close access to poison him, Navy Criminal Investigative Service agent Rob Terwilliger said in a court statement filed last month seeking a warrant for Cynthia Sommer’s arrest.

According to the statement, Todd Sommer began showing symptoms of arsenic poisoning on Feb. 8, 2002 — 10 days before he died. That day, his wife visited a plastic surgeon’s office and inquired about breast augmentation, authorities say.

It was a $5,400 surgery that her household income would not allow, according to Terwilliger’s statement. A credit check showed she had more than $23,000 in debt, Navy investigators found.

Big payment
But Todd Sommer’s death left his widow a $250,000 lump-sum payment from his servicemember’s life insurance policy as well as a $6,000 death gratuity, according to Terwilliger. She also was entitled to receive $1,871 a month from the Department of Veterans Affairs.

“Cindy’s excuse for the lifestyle she started living after (her husband) died was that he was very strict, he didn’t like for her to go out partying, staying out with friends,” said former Marine Brent Applebee, who told military investigators the widow showed him her still-taped up breasts.

“Todd also didn’t want her to get her breasts enlarged, so I think that she was living out the fantasy life she really wanted.”

Two weeks before her husband’s death, Cynthia Sommer paid $16.95 for an Internet dating service, authorities say.

During an 2001 investigation of child neglect-abuse, she allegedly told a North Carolina caseworker, “I have four kids. It isn’t like I could leave them and go anywhere. No one wants to baby-sit four kids.”

[Lera]

incredible huh Jeny? Just goes to show you how research is a good thing.

[FatRepublican]

Actually that thread was from 2002 and somebody just bumped it a few days ago after putting two and two together.

[Lera]

There are crazy people online. Once, on another site two people pretended to be married, they laid all their personal life out there for all to read. Then one day she post that her husband blew his brains out. Every one rallied to her side giving her sympathy. After a week of this I was very suspious and did some checking. The town she stated she lived in, the restaurant they owned, all were bogus! No news artical of any kind, no police reports either. I actually called two police departments. All bogus. When I called her on it, the other posters turned on me so, that is when I left and never went back.

[JenyEliza]

Wow....

http://www.kfmb.com/features/crimefighters/story.php?id=31675#


Miramar Widow Revealed All In Web Site Postings
Last Updated:
12-22-05 at 1:53PM
An attorney representing the widow of a Miramar Marine charged with murder says his client did not poison her husband with arsenic.

WARNING: This story is sexually graphic. Intended for mature audiences only.

Cynthia Sommer is charged with poisoning her husband on base at Miramar, and then cashing in on his life insurance policy. As part of the investigation, prosecutors discovered pictures of Sommer and her husband posted on the internet.

The pornographic photos are posted on an adult Web site under a username “lifesatrip7”, belonging to Cynthia Sommer, according to court documents. They show Sommer engaged in graphic sex acts with her husband, Miramar Marine Sergeant Todd Sommer – the same man she is now accused of poisoning to death with arsenic. “Open Minded Couple Looking For Fun” the caption on the Web site reads.

Three weeks ago, police arrested Sommer in Florida and charged her with poisoning her husband inside their home at the Miramar Marine base back in February 2002.

Sommer’s attorney says there’s no way Sommer murdered her husband.

“These allegations she categorically and emphatically denies, and looks forward to vindicating herself when all the evidence comes out,” defense attorney Steve Cohen said.

Three days after her husband died, Cynthia Sommer started posting details on a different internet site.

"Todd died during the night..." she wrote. "...we were asleep in bed and a cause of death isn't yet determined... we're waiting for the toxicology report to come back."

Those lab tests finally did come back a year later. They showed arsenic in Todd Sommer’s liver – 1,000 times the normal level.

By then, Cynthia Sommer had cashed in on a $250,000 life insurance policy and spent $5,400 for breast implants, according to court documents.

Sommer soon met another Miramar Marine named Ross Ritter, and moved in with him in Florida along with her four children. Those children are now living with relatives.

“She’s very upset… she hasn’t been able to see her children,” Cohen explained. “She is very concerned about them as well as her future.”

But court records show Cynthia Sommer has not been the best of mothers in the years since her husband died. She pleaded guilty to child neglect charges in 2003 after her kids, ages 3 to 11 at the time, were found home alone by Sheriff’s deputies at 10 p.m. at night.

According to the report, the children had not eaten dinner and deputies found “…ants crawling on the counter top…” and "...nothing but condiments and 10 beers..." in the refrigerator. The kids were watching TV in a bedroom with "...open beer bottles on the headboard within reach of the kids." And the bed "...smelled like urine," according to the report.

A judge sentenced Sommer to probation, and she lost custody of her children for several months. Now she’s fighting extradition back to San Diego on the murder charges.

“We decided to fight extradition, which means we’re not waiving it, and fighting the reasons that she should be brought to California,” Cohen said.

Sommer will be back in court in Florida on January 4. It could be weeks before she appears in a San Diego courtroom. The district attorney will then decide whether to seek the death penalty on special circumstances of murder by poison and murder for financial gain.

[Lera]

damn, just damn

[esanton]

wow, that is insane!

[Zell Miller Repub]

That's amazing that someone would remember that thread 3 or 4 years back on a forum and then bump it when they found out what happened. There's probably some evidence value there.

That woman only highlights there's some sick assed people in this world that put money before everything. She'll probably be out sooner than later because the jury will feel sorry for the kids without a "mother". My thought is that they'd be far better off without her around to remind them.

[Lera]

Cynthia Sommer was in court Wednesday for an extradition hearing.

Wednesday morning's extradition hearing was anti climactic because an extradition warrant signed by California's governor has yet to arrive.

So the extradition proceeding was postponed. so a delay

[mysticbeauty_nbeast]

Now hold up a minute...I read the first several pages of that link provided in the OP. Her husband, that she is now charged with murdering, had an online web site that showed them both in active sex positons..propastitoning outsiders! I am sure he was a great guy...but he is hardly a Saint!

As far as his death in February 2002...and a tox report not being made available or determined until October 2005...hmmmmm can you say fishy? Something is just not right with the whole scenerio. It just doesn't take that long to provide a full tox screen on anyone...including the recently deceased.

And I just know I am going to eat this later...but ya know what...how someone greives, or spends their money in grief..may not look rationale...but who in the heck is rational when someone dies? Would it have made her mother teresa had she given the money to research, or to a chairity? Would make no sense seeing as she has four children to support. I don't know..something about this, the time line and the facts that are not in evidence just stinks from here to high heaven.

If she did it, the law will catch up with her...but if she didn't..then they most certainly have some big time explaining to do! Just my two cents anyway...:rolleyes:

[gdoane]

Dang. I left out a rule against making posts to get sympathy for committing first degree murder.

Oh well. I guess banning is a moot point after that anyway.

[terri910]

The cops in Florida banned her behind!

[Supernova]

Now hold up a minute...I read the first several pages of that link provided in the OP. Her husband, that she is now charged with murdering, had an online web site that showed them both in active sex positons..propastitoning outsiders! I am sure he was a great guy...but he is hardly a Saint!
I understood it to be her site. Not his. He might not have even known about it.

[FatRepublican]

I understood it to be her site. Not his. He might not have even known about it.

That's the way I read it as well.

As a matter of fact, I think it was after he perished...

[mysticbeauty_nbeast]

I understood it to be her site. Not his. He might not have even known about it.

I understood they were 'both' pictured there...so either way...he had to have participated somehow to get those pics right?
Look, she may be guilty as sin..she may be innocent....just not enough information to make a decision one way or the other. and the time line is really off...I mean, why would a tox screen take so long? Are there many tox screens..and they finally got the result they were after? Heck, I don't know...the whole story sounds fishy at best.
The law has a funny way of slowly but surely weeding out the truth...one way or the other, it will be resolved.

[Lera]

I did see a picture on that thread I thought was funny. Let me share it with you all. *laughing*

[FatRepublican]

I did see a picture on that thread I thought was funny. Let me share it with you all. *laughing*

That ol' boy's hungry

[Lera]

That he is... Peta would love that picture.

[FatRepublican]

I understood they were 'both' pictured there...so either way...he had to have participated somehow to get those pics right?


He didn't have to give her authorization to post pics on a website.

Especially since he was dead.

The were pics taken together while he was alive (obviously) and she posted them on an adult website trying to get a hookup.

[Lera]

sometimes things are just forgotten about. Files misplaced, maybe it was just the LAB it was sent to was very busy, and other cases way ahead of this one. Maybe after it was sent to the lab it sat in refrigeration forgotten about...it happens.

[Supernova]

I understood they were 'both' pictured there...so either way...he had to have participated somehow to get those pics right?
Look, she may be guilty as sin..she may be innocent....just not enough information to make a decision one way or the other. and the time line is really off...I mean, why would a tox screen take so long? Are there many tox screens..and they finally got the result they were after? Heck, I don't know...the whole story sounds fishy at best.
The law has a funny way of slowly but surely weeding out the truth...one way or the other, it will be resolved.
After reading a few articles about this case, I got the impression he wasn't the type who would allow those kind of pics to be posted on the web.

“Cindy’s excuse for the lifestyle she started living after (her husband) died was that he was very strict, he didn’t like for her to go out partying, staying out with friends,” said former Marine Brent Applebee, who told military investigators the widow showed him her still-taped up breasts.

“Todd also didn’t want her to get her breasts enlarged, so I think that she was living out the fantasy life she really wanted.”

I could be wrong.

[JenyEliza]

sometimes things are just forgotten about. Files misplaced, maybe it was just the LAB it was sent to was very busy, and other cases way ahead of this one. Maybe after it was sent to the lab it sat in refrigeration forgotten about...it happens.

Let's not also forget that this young man was a Marine and he died on base. Which means the military was responsible for a good part of the investigation, and they probably aren't as well equipped for that kind of thing as a civilian investigative unit.

Also, the coroner originally thought he'd died of a heart attack. That was the original cause of death listed. I'm guessing that *his* family pressed the issue because they just didn't believe that to be the case. Especially given how his "widow" behaved after his death.

It is MHO, that after some time had elapsed and with continued pressure from the family that lead the investigators to look more closely at the toxicology and tissue samples to see if there was something more to his death than a simple heart attack (which is rather rare in an otherwise very healthy, fit 23 year old young man, and Marine's are nothing if not VERY fit people).

Just my opinion...but I could be wrong.

Jen

[JenyEliza]

After reading a few articles about this case, I got the impression he wasn't the type who would allow those kind of pics to be posted on the web.



I could be wrong.

I don't think you're wrong. This Marine doesn't seem the type to be posting porn-style pictures of his wife online.

I'm fairly confident those postings came after his death.

[mysticbeauty_nbeast]

Let's not also forget that this young man was a Marine and he died on base. Which means the military was responsible for a good part of the investigation, and they probably aren't as well equipped for that kind of thing as a civilian investigative unit.

Also, the coroner originally thought he'd died of a heart attack. That was the original cause of death listed. I'm guessing that *his* family pressed the issue because they just didn't believe that to be the case. Especially given how his "widow" behaved after his death.

It is MHO, that after some time had elapsed and with continued pressure from the family that lead the investigators to look more closely at the toxicology and tissue samples to see if there was something more to his death than a simple heart attack (which is rather rare in an otherwise very healthy, fit 23 year old young man, and Marine's are nothing if not VERY fit people).

Just my opinion...but I could be wrong.

Jen

I have much more faith in Military Medical facilities and doctors within the military then that. But say your right...why on earth then would the family wait so darn long? I mean, if it were my son...and his widow was 'ho'ing' out..I would darn well want it looked into a lot sooner then 3 years later! Do you see what I mean though? Something, they are not telling us, is involved in this story. It's not that I believe she is completely innocent...as I don't know. The young man/marine however, sounds like a all around great guy..and could very well have some foul play involved here. Either way..I just wish there was clearer information on the case. To me, it just doesn't match up as far as facts, per time line, and what happened in between the two. I hope they resolve it quickly...I just don't like to make snap judgments one way or the other, until I have more facts...I know..I am weird that way..
Thanks for the food for thought Jen..as always appreciated!

[mysticbeauty_nbeast]

Oh yeah...I knew I was forgetting something...

regardless of when this poor young man died/murdered, would have put the pictures of he and his wife on the net is simply irrelevant in my view.

He still thought it ok to take those pictures of he and his wife during an intimate moment! Lord only knows what can happen with pictures like that!

That was more what I was referring too here within the topic of pictures. Just to risky to ever do IMO..and definitely does not make him perfect if he made a poor judgment such as this one. What she then did..or what all of you are alleging she did..is beyond disgusting IMO!!!

[JenyEliza]

I have much more faith in Military Medical facilities and doctors within the military then that. But say your right...why on earth then would the family wait so darn long? I mean, if it were my son...and his widow was 'ho'ing' out..I would darn well want it looked into a lot sooner then 3 years later! Do you see what I mean though? Something, they are not telling us, is involved in this story. It's not that I believe she is completely innocent...as I don't know. The young man/marine however, sounds like a all around great guy..and could very well have some foul play involved here. Either way..I just wish there was clearer information on the case. To me, it just doesn't match up as far as facts, per time line, and what happened in between the two. I hope they resolve it quickly...I just don't like to make snap judgments one way or the other, until I have more facts...I know..I am weird that way..
Thanks for the food for thought Jen..as always appreciated!

Have you ever worked with *any* investigative unit with regards to the murder of a loved one or someone you are close to?

As someone who has, I can tell you that things don't move quickly. It's not like TV or the movies. Prosecutors, detectives, police officers...they all like to dot their i's and cross their t's.

Why don't you check out this site and get a close up view of what happens after someone is murdered.

http://www.murdervictims.com/

The message board where family members post:
http://murdervictims.proboards18.com/

I fully believe it could have taken 18-36 months for the investigators to gather enough evidence to make an air-tight case against this "widow". Prosecutors are very reluctant to press charges against someone without hard evidence they can present in court and get a conviction. They're especially hesitant to arrest and press felony murder charges against a "young, grieving widow" with 4 children, unless they have ALL of their ducks in a row.

Additionally, it is very possible the investigators and prosecutor were giving the "grieving widow" plenty of rope upon which she would hang herself. And it seems, she has.

Check out the links I posted....get a feel for what those families go through to get the investigators to move more quickly--or even to listen to them at all.

Then come back and tell me what you think. I'd be interested in your thoughts after reading the message board for the surviving family members.

Jen



____________

[Hadassah]

As far as his death in February 2002...and a tox report not being made available or determined until October 2005...hmmmmm can you say fishy? Something is just not right with the whole scenerio. It just doesn't take that long to provide a full tox screen on anyone...including the recently deceased.





I read all of the links posted on page 3 in the link the OP provided, and one of the stories said that investigators had "just recently tested his tissues" for arsenic and came back with something like 1,000 times the norm. It didn't take them 3 years to get the results back, it took them almost 3 years to check for arsenic in the first place. I'll go get the links.

[Hadassah]

http://msnbc.msn.com/id/10479896/

http://www.kfmb.com/features/crimefighters/story.php?id=33386

http://www.kfmb.com/features/crimefighters/story.php?id=31082


This is from the third link: Investigators recently tested organ tissue from Todd Sommer’s body and found 1,000 times the normal levels of arsenic in his liver. Now, Cynthia Sommer is sitting in a Florida jail facing murder charges.

[mysticbeauty_nbeast]

Have you ever worked with *any* investigative unit with regards to the murder of a loved one or someone you are close to?

As someone who has, I can tell you that things don't move quickly. It's not like TV or the movies. Prosecutors, detectives, police officers...they all like to dot their i's and cross their t's.

Why don't you check out this site and get a close up view of what happens after someone is murdered.

http://www.murdervictims.com/

The message board where family members post:
http://murdervictims.proboards18.com/

I fully believe it could have taken 18-36 months for the investigators to gather enough evidence to make an air-tight case against this "widow". Prosecutors are very reluctant to press charges against someone without hard evidence they can present in court and get a conviction. They're especially hesitant to arrest and press felony murder charges against a "young, grieving widow" with 4 children, unless they have ALL of their ducks in a row.

Additionally, it is very possible the investigators and prosecutor were giving the "grieving widow" plenty of rope upon which she would hang herself. And it seems, she has.

Check out the links I posted....get a feel for what those families go through to get the investigators to move more quickly--or even to listen to them at all.

Then come back and tell me what you think. I'd be interested in your thoughts after reading the message board for the surviving family members.

Jen



____________

I personally have not had to deal with that very personal or intimate tragedy...but I have walked through it so to speak with very near and dear friends of ours. You are correct that murder investigations do move slowly...to slowly imo sometimes..but is understandable...but three years Jen for a tox screen? That is what is really throwing me here.
Look, he is 23, healthy, active, no disease present in his history. Having assisted in autopsies personally..honey we check for everything...right then an there. That is the puzzle..believe me, had the levels been what the Oct. 05 tox screen showed..it also would have shown in the Feb. 02! It is possible that someone did a very sloppy job..but even in the sloppy job of an autopsy..does not excuse or to say that the lab is also sloppy. I am sure you see what I am baffled over. I hope they resolve the case, for all parties involved...it is painful enough to loose someone you love..and even harder to wait for the justice one may seek. I just don'[t want to jump to conclusions without more facts.

[JenyEliza]

Oh yeah...I knew I was forgetting something...

regardless of when this poor young man died/murdered, would have put the pictures of he and his wife on the net is simply irrelevant in my view.

He still thought it ok to take those pictures of he and his wife during an intimate moment! Lord only knows what can happen with pictures like that!

That was more what I was referring too here within the topic of pictures. Just to risky to ever do IMO..and definitely does not make him perfect if he made a poor judgment such as this one. What she then did..or what all of you are alleging she did..is beyond disgusting IMO!!!

I think it goes without saying that his young man had pretty poor judgement--look what and who he married. An already divorced woman with 3 children who was 10+ years older than him, who worked in a sub sandwhich shop. Seems fairly clear she was looking for a meal ticket for herself and her kids when she found this young, gullible Marine to latch onto. After marrying him, she found being a military family didn't support herself or her children in the manner to which she would have liked to become accustomed and the husband became an inconvenience who stood in the way of a large insurance payoff.

Of course, "love" is blind and he was young and "in love". I suppose that hindsight is 20/20, and now that we can look back on these facts, its really easy for me to say all of this. Unfortunately, he's still as dead as he was the day he died, and now she's going to have to become accustomed to a completely different way of life--if she gets to keep hers at all.

I believe that the particulars of this case and the special circumstances involved (killing someone for an insurance pay off for instance) warrant a death penalty trial for this young lady, according to the laws of the State of California.

I'd be willing to bet she wishes she could take it all back...but it's too late for that now.

Jen

[jeepers]

I don't think that it's a snap judgement when there is the presence of a lethal level of arsenic. Then the only question to answer is, who would want this man dead?

Not like 20 year olds drop dead from natural causes very often.

[mysticbeauty_nbeast]

I read all of the links posted on page 3 in the link the OP provided, and one of the stories said that investigators had "just recently tested his tissues" for arsenic and came back with something like 1,000 times the norm. It didn't take them 3 years to get the results back, it took them almost 3 years to check for arsenic in the first place. I'll go get the links.

As did I, and then the article posted there as well on the woman who is charged with murder.
Look, I'm not arguing with you...but they most certainly in a death such as this, do a full toxicology screen; among many other tests and tissue samples for a check of a myriad of things..such as disease, radiation exposure, lead poisoning, bites such as bugs, snakes etc...everything and anything that may help explain why the person died. That would for anyone whose death required a autopsy. It is just standard medical practice and procedure..private, county or military.
But ya know, I just don't want to jump to conclusions on any one side here, until more details of the case are released. Is that so wrong? if she is guilty, then she will get her just desserts..if she is not guilty of the crime as charged, then that too will come out. It is a sad case...either way you look at it. His family grieves for a son, the kids who became attached grieve for the loss of a Father. It is just sad the pain that this incident has caused.

[JenyEliza]

I personally have not had to deal with that very personal or intimate tragedy...but I have walked through it so to speak with very near and dear friends of ours. You are correct that murder investigations do move slowly...to slowly imo sometimes..but is understandable...but three years Jen for a tox screen? That is what is really throwing me here.
Look, he is 23, healthy, active, no disease present in his history. Having assisted in autopsies personally..honey we check for everything...right then an there. That is the puzzle..believe me, had the levels been what the Oct. 05 tox screen showed..it also would have shown in the Feb. 02! It is possible that someone did a very sloppy job..but even in the sloppy job of an autopsy..does not excuse or to say that the lab is also sloppy. I am sure you see what I am baffled over. I hope they resolve the case, for all parties involved...it is painful enough to loose someone you love..and even harder to wait for the justice one may seek. I just don'[t want to jump to conclusions without more facts.

Here in GA we had a similar "black widow" case that went unsolved for YEARS...and the "black widow" went on to kill yet a second man before it was solved. In fact, had it not been for her second victim, she'd have never been caught at all.

She poisoned both husbands with anti-freeze. They ended up digging up the first husband to take tissue samples to confirm his death was from poisoning, rather than the original cause listed. The first husband was a POLICE OFFICER...and it still took YEARS and lots and lots of pushing from his family, because they just didn't accept that she'd had nothing to do with it.

Here's a google search on that case: http://news.google.com/news?hl=en&ned=us&q=Lynn+Turner+%2B+murder&btnG=Search+News

And a very recent article on this case: http://www.11alive.com/news/news_article.aspx?storyid=74468

I still say it's not just possible, but probable, that similar prodding from this young man's family is the only reason this case was solved at all. And sometimes it DOES take years to reopen a case and get things done.

Jen

[Arya]

It's bad enough that she murdered her husband, but to behave as she did, and to prey upon the sympathies of others is beyond words for me.

I believe in Karma-that everything you do comes back to you. The degree of selfishness that she has is enormous, IMO. Not only premeditated murder, but to flaunt it while preying upon the sympathies of others is just vile.

I can understand the time it has taken for the evidences to collect/be made public. I can only imagine what his family members have gone through, are experiencing, and will have to further endure in the future.

I hope they get full justice-and this bitch gets what she deserves. Sorry everyone, but this story really ticks me off. I really cannot stand shallow, selfish people like this who will murder for money, and behave the way that she did, with absolutely no regard to anyone else.

:evil: :evil: :evil:

[mysticbeauty_nbeast]

I don't think that it's a snap judgement when there is the presence of a lethal level of arsenic. Then the only question to answer is, who would want this man dead?

Not like 20 year olds drop dead from natural causes very often.

Good point Jeepers..
That is just me..I don't like to make hasty judgments without more facts in evidence. I know, not popular...but hey..what can I say? I'm weird ok?

Like I stated before..if the woman charged did this..then she will pay for what she did. And rightfully so! How anyone can kill another human being is beyond me..especially if done for a few dollars. Just sick!

If she didn't do it, that too will come out. Will be exonerated to a point..with the exception of her behavior post death of her husband. Either way, the case is in good hands.

Just find it odd that the tests (full tox screen) where either not done at all..which will be a lawsuit in itself..as well as the time frame of three years before the tox screen was either done again, or done correctly to show cause of death. I mean, they must have known it wasn't heart..that would have been conclusively shown in the initial autopsy right? So what on earth did they put on his death certificate?
Personally I would just like a few more answers prior to putting nails in the coffin of the accused.

[jeepers]

Understanding a sociopath is a bad thing.

[Hadassah]

As did I, and then the article posted there as well on the woman who is charged with murder.
Look, I'm not arguing with you...but they most certainly in a death such as this, do a full toxicology screen; among many other tests and tissue samples for a check of a myriad of things..such as disease, radiation exposure, lead poisoning, bites such as bugs, snakes etc...everything and anything that may help explain why the person died. That would for anyone whose death required a autopsy. It is just standard medical practice and procedure..private, county or military.
But ya know, I just don't want to jump to conclusions on any one side here, until more details of the case are released. Is that so wrong? if she is guilty, then she will get her just desserts..if she is not guilty of the crime as charged, then that too will come out. It is a sad case...either way you look at it. His family grieves for a son, the kids who became attached grieve for the loss of a Father. It is just sad the pain that this incident has caused.

You're not arguing with me. I am not sure what is SOP in autopsies, esp. ones that occur in people who die suddenly "for no reason". Yes, I know the basics, but I was not aware that they check for things like arsenic.

But, this is not the first time I have heard of things like this happening----a few years later, the autopsy is redone or they check for something that was not done in the original autopsy, at the behest of the family---and viola! The SO is arrested for murder. I read about another one just recently where the wife used antifreeze to kill her husband. It took a while there, too. They had to recheck the hubby's body there, too.

[Sidestreamer]

Holy ****. Burn the witch.

[mysticbeauty_nbeast]

Here in GA we had a similar "black widow" case that went unsolved for YEARS...and the "black widow" went on to kill yet a second man before it was solved. In fact, had it not been for her second victim, she'd have never been caught at all.

She poisoned both husbands with anti-freeze. They ended up digging up the first husband to take tissue samples to confirm his death was from poisoning, rather than the original cause listed. The first husband was a POLICE OFFICER...and it still took YEARS and lots and lots of pushing from his family, because they just didn't accept that she'd had nothing to do with it.

Here's a google search on that case: http://news.google.com/news?hl=en&ned=us&q=Lynn+Turner+%2B+murder&btnG=Search+News

And a very recent article on this case: http://www.11alive.com/news/news_article.aspx?storyid=74468

I still say it's not just possible, but probable, that similar prodding from this young man's family is the only reason this case was solved at all. And sometimes it DOES take years to reopen a case and get things done.

Jen

Absolutely correct..and I think I remember that case on the news! But it should have never taken years..it never should have even gone to closed case! That is my point! I would think with levels like that, unless they had a monkey doing all the lab and autopsy work..no one could have missed it!

I couldn't agree more in that when these Black Widows kill for money, they are no better then the sludgy slime that feeds the puss, that feeds the mucous that makes up the pond scum! I most definitely do not advocate for the woman if that is what she did.
I am more sitting here scratching my head to understand why in the first darn place someone didn't actually look at the darn Tox report! I mean this is standard OP! Honest! Has been for years as far as I know..and I'm not a newbie to the subject matter. I am saying that if the Feb. 02 tox screen showed that kind of levels..she would have been hooked and booked by March 02! or at the very least, they would have kept way close tabs on her, while they built the case!
I'm looking more for clarification in why that didn't happen..why the long time frame that made the families suffering even longer. Anything else she did is just gross..but not where my need for clarification lies.

[Hadassah]

As did I, and then the article posted there as well on the woman who is charged with murder.
Look, I'm not arguing with you...but they most certainly in a death such as this, do a full toxicology screen; among many other tests and tissue samples for a check of a myriad of things..such as disease, radiation exposure, lead poisoning, bites such as bugs, snakes etc...everything and anything that may help explain why the person died. That would for anyone whose death required a autopsy. It is just standard medical practice and procedure..private, county or military.
But ya know, I just don't want to jump to conclusions on any one side here, until more details of the case are released. Is that so wrong? if she is guilty, then she will get her just desserts..if she is not guilty of the crime as charged, then that too will come out. It is a sad case...either way you look at it. His family grieves for a son, the kids who became attached grieve for the loss of a Father. It is just sad the pain that this incident has caused.


Now this is what a good debate is about. People posting what they know and their opinions without rancor.

Hell, no, it's not wrong to want to know more details. That is the way I am, too. Unfortunately, though, it doesn't surprise me that things took so long, and that is why I posted what I did, to answer your question.

[jeepers]

The question is, what are the run of the mill tests done on a body during a military autopsy?

I don't know the answer to that one.

One thing that I do know that is similiar with both live patients for whom a diagnosis is unknown and for dead bodies is that 'everything' is not automatically tested for. Too time consuming and expensive. They need a 'reason' to do that.

Example, if someone was killed by being hit by a train, they might do a drug screen but would they test for heavy metals? I doubt it.

Knowing what the results of the original autopsy was would be helpful in answering your questions. Because I wouldn't automatically assume that the 'tox screen' would include poisons. In a hospital, a tox screen is looking for the presence of alcohol, and both legal and illegal drugs. I wonder if the nomenclature is different? Tox screens come in different flavours. The most common is the one that I described.

[Hadassah]

Absolutely correct..and I think I remember that case on the news! But it should have never taken years..it never should have even gone to closed case! That is my point! I would think with levels like that, unless they had a monkey doing all the lab and autopsy work..no one could have missed it!

I couldn't agree more in that when these Black Widows kill for money, they are no better then the sludgy slime that feeds the puss, that feeds the mucous that makes up the pond scum! I most definitely do not advocate for the woman if that is what she did.
I am more sitting here scratching my head to understand why in the first darn place someone didn't actually look at the darn Tox report! I mean this is standard OP! Honest! Has been for years as far as I know..and I'm not a newbie to the subject matter. I am saying that if the Feb. 02 tox screen showed that kind of levels..she would have been hooked and booked by March 02! or at the very least, they would have kept way close tabs on her, while they built the case!
I'm looking more for clarification in why that didn't happen..why the long time frame that made the families suffering even longer. Anything else she did is just gross..but not where my need for clarification lies.

Since you have had experience in assisting with autopsies, is the protocol the same in all autopsies in the country or do they vary state to state, like nursing practice?

[JenyEliza]

Absolutely correct..and I think I remember that case on the news! But it should have never taken years..it never should have even gone to closed case! That is my point! I would think with levels like that, unless they had a monkey doing all the lab and autopsy work..no one could have missed it!

You would think that with the first decedent being a POLICE OFFICER, that his death would have been completely and thoroughly investigated--including full Toxicology. However, they didn't even bother with toxicology with him. It wasn't until the second guy, a FIREFIGHTER, turned up dead in eerily similar circumstances that anyone did the math and said "this isn't right" and took a closer look. They had to DIG UP the first husband to get tissue samples to test. Good damned thing his family hadn't had him cremated. :eek:

If that can happen to a POLICE OFFICER and a FIREFIGHTER...why not to a Marine as well?

You're right...in all three cases, toxicology should have been done STAT and the death certicificates should NEVER have been signed by the coroner without those results, since all three men were young, healthy and in excellent shape--there should have been no reason to accept "natural death" without fully looking at EVERYTHING first.

I couldn't agree more in that when these Black Widows kill for money, they are no better then the sludgy slime that feeds the puss, that feeds the mucous that makes up the pond scum! I most definitely do not advocate for the woman if that is what she did.

Yep. Those "black widows" disgusting. They are fleas on amoebas on rats. Worst of the worst womanhood has to offer this world. I have NO tolerance for them and the heartache and pain the cause everyone around them.

I am more sitting here scratching my head to understand why in the first darn place someone didn't actually look at the darn Tox report! I mean this is standard OP! Honest! Has been for years as far as I know..and I'm not a newbie to the subject matter.

I am too. And you know those families are too. And I do believe you know the subject matter, but I think you're very professional and used to things being done the *right way*, when that is not always the case in other parts of the country, kwim? Maybe that is why you're having such a hard time accepting the probability that someone just really dropped the ball in this Marine's case. In fact, I'm guessing that's exactly why. You're a professional who isn't used to dealing with incompentance.

I am saying that if the Feb. 02 tox screen showed that kind of levels..she would have been hooked and booked by March 02! or at the very least, they would have kept way close tabs on her, while they built the case!

I think they did keep a close eye one her, even though they didn't arrest her right off the bat. They took their time building the case, but they didn't take her off the radar. She killed her husband in San Diego, but she was arrested in the FL. Keys. Someone involved in the investigation kept tabs on where she was and what she was doing....while they built that case.

I'm looking more for clarification in why that didn't happen..why the long time frame that made the families suffering even longer. Anything else she did is just gross..but not where my need for clarification lies.

I don't have confirmed answers about the "whys"--only my hunches and suspicions, and that's pretty much all we have to go on right now. The rest we will have to wait and find out as more information is released.

Jen

[Supernova]

It's my understanding that many chemicals/poisons/compounds require special test to detect. They basically have to be looking for that particular type of chemical/poison/compound in order to detect it.
If arsenic is a compound that requires special testing, it might explain the long delay. They may not have tested for it until after they became suspicious of the wifes behavior and thought to look for the arsenic.

Just a thought.

[mysticbeauty_nbeast]

You're not arguing with me. I am not sure what is SOP in autopsies, esp. ones that occur in people who die suddenly "for no reason". Yes, I know the basics, but I was not aware that they check for things like arsenic.

But, this is not the first time I have heard of things like this happening----a few years later, the autopsy is redone or they check for something that was not done in the original autopsy, at the behest of the family---and viola! The SO is arrested for murder. I read about another one just recently where the wife used antifreeze to kill her husband. It took a while there, too. They had to recheck the hubby's body there, too.

Your correct in that things like this have happened many times before..and yes the family must constantly badger the police investigators in re-opening or investigating further into those cases.

Medical and criminal investigative units have been on the look out and made it SOp for this type of poisoning so to speak, since the early 90's in any and all deaths that are not natural causes. They check for everything...over dose of Insulin..which has happened..and yes, will kill you, Windex..which will kill you at .50 parts per million..about 50cc's or so, anti-freeze..which will kill in .1 parts per million or less then 15cc! They check for cleaners..they check for all types of bites...they check for lead..via external or internal..(think of paint..many have gone to jail for poisoning their spouses..then it comes out they (the spouse) had shaved off the old paint off of something that contained lethal levels of lead, and repainted it..Meantime, they have taken in all that lead in the old paint via the nose!..It has happened!)

Toxicology is not just for illicit drugs anymore..they check for anything and everything..including elevated levels of those found natural in the body..like Magnesium..which can put you into an instant heart attack at high levels.

Arsenic..which is a naturally occurring mineral on our planet, is also now checked for, as it is one of the highest natural killers of almost all living things. It is found in all types of pesticides and even in basic chemistry sets...!!! So, with our modern day abilities..it just baffles me why they drug this out so long! I mean, they could have had this all wrapped up and had her serving time, by now! Or at the very least, been able to determine at the time, what had killed him, and rounded up their suspects.

There either is more to this story then they are putting out there..or someone made one huge boo-boo in the first place!

[Supernova]

Succinylcholine is a good example of a drug that requires special testing to detect.
It wasn't until investigators suspected a Dr. of using succinylcholine to kill his wife was a test even developed. It's a drug they won't find unless they are looking for it.

[mysticbeauty_nbeast]

It's my understanding that many chemicals/poisons/compounds require special test to detect. They basically have to be looking for that particular type of chemical/poison/compound in order to detect it.
If arsenic is a compound that requires special testing, it might explain the long delay. They may not have tested for it until after they became suspicious of the wifes behavior and thought to look for the arsenic.

Just a thought.

I understand what you are saying Fudd, I do. However, Arsenic and it's many cases of poisioning, have now become SOP for tox screens. So have many other elements that did not used to be SOP. Like Windex, Anti-Freeze..etc.etc.etc.
His death was most definitely not from natural causes..which I remember reading from the article..but they also said it might be a heart issue, then scrapped that idea after the autopsy. So exactly what did they think happened to this healthy young man? Someone did some pretty shoddy work here..and could have saved the family a lot of grief and a lot of pain.

[mysticbeauty_nbeast]

The question is, what are the run of the mill tests done on a body during a military autopsy?

I don't know the answer to that one.

One thing that I do know that is similiar with both live patients for whom a diagnosis is unknown and for dead bodies is that 'everything' is not automatically tested for. Too time consuming and expensive. They need a 'reason' to do that.

Example, if someone was killed by being hit by a train, they might do a drug screen but would they test for heavy metals? I doubt it.

Knowing what the results of the original autopsy was would be helpful in answering your questions. Because I wouldn't automatically assume that the 'tox screen' would include poisons. In a hospital, a tox screen is looking for the presence of alcohol, and both legal and illegal drugs. I wonder if the nomenclature is different? Tox screens come in different flavours. The most common is the one that I described.

Your correct..ordering up a chem 7 or chem 21 or a full RBC/WBC or even CBC for a patient is allot different then say an autopsy on a young healthy male of 23, with no disease process evident in history or tissues.

Now unlike a hospital patient..where a base line is present with regular blood work..and autopsy does not have that advantage. I know I have not been in the field itself for over ten years..but when I left..SOP was to check for all toxins present..with the exception of fine toxins that can be introduced into the body. (Like Fudd posted...fine toxins such as this must have probable cause to assume they had been introduced into the patients system, and killed them.) Things that did not used to be common, like arsenic or floor cleaner, or Windex, or even lead..have now become common place within a death and it's consequential autopsy, within a Full Toxicology Screen. Illicit drugs, like in a floor patient having a tox screen ordered, is going to show a similar, but lessened field of the full tox screen.

[Supernova]

I understand what you are saying Fudd, I do. However, Arsenic and it's many cases of poisioning, have now become SOP for tox screens. So have many other elements that did not used to be SOP. Like Windex, Anti-Freeze..etc.etc.etc.
His death was most definitely not from natural causes..which I remember reading from the article..but they also said it might be a heart issue, then scrapped that idea after the autopsy. So exactly what did they think happened to this healthy young man? Someone did some pretty shoddy work here..and could have saved the family a lot of grief and a lot of pain.
I understand what you're saying and I have the same questions. I was just trying to come up with some ideas that might explain the delay.

I read that the initial autopsy report ruled that he died of a heart attack. I suspect there must have been a reason for that.
Does arsenic damage the heart where it can be mistaken for a heart attack?
Did the investigators request the test that found the high arsenic levels? If so, when did they request the test? Why did they request the test?

There sure are a lot of unanswered questions. It will be interesting to see how this case plays out.

[mysticbeauty_nbeast]

Since you have had experience in assisting with autopsies, is the protocol the same in all autopsies in the country or do they vary state to state, like nursing practice?

Ya know...that I am not sure of Hadassah....but very good question. Very well could be that in Florida..it is not SOP. It is somewhere in my head though...that along all my years, within the medical field..that anything labeled suspicious..or illicit, or even strong suspicion of dirty deeds, warranted what we call a full tox screen. But maybe Florida has a different standard?...good question though! Should be SOP in this day in age..with so many attempting it.

Like mothers who have Munchausen Syndrome (either with or without Proxy) use everyday household items to 'keep' their kids sick. Pesticides, lawn fertilizer, Anti-freeze, Insulin, etc etc etc. Since that is not a locality issue, and is a personal issue, it was my understanding that under the title Suspicious Death, UnNatural Death or UnTimely death, which each requires an autopsy..that automatically those known substances are immediately checked for.

[mysticbeauty_nbeast]

I understand what you're saying and I have the same questions. I was just trying to come up with some ideas that might explain the delay.

I read that the initial autopsy report ruled that he died of a heart attack. I suspect there must have been a reason for that.
Does arsenic damage the heart where it can be mistaken for a heart attack?
Did the investigators request the test that found the high arsenic levels? If so, when did they request the test? Why did they request the test?

There sure are a lot of unanswered questions. It will be interesting to see how this case plays out.

It was my understanding at first as well, that they had claimed heart issues. However, within the autopsy, it was ruled out; or so that was my understanding...I could have misunderstood that part. That is why I asked what on earth was placed on his Death Certificate?
As far as Arsenic slowly or rapidly depleting the muscle of the heart..(which is some of the strongest tissue in the body) is in two camps. Like any muscle tissue, it is subject to deterioration just like any other part of the body. There are in fact however, to determine if the tissue involved is deteriorating from a disease process...like sclerosis of the liver...or if it is intended..like piercing wounds or broken bones that perforate the tissue..or if it is from a substance introduced into the tissue, like drugs, etc.
He would have to be exposed..or poisoned over a long period of time to show any real damage to the heart. If he smoked..then at first blush only, it could be passed off as a trigger...or if he had ingested a substance that weakened the heart tissue, they would have attributed that fact to it, not arsenic.
But that is why the Tox panel and screen is so very critical and vital for all involved!
I too hope we get our answers...and you ask some pretty good questions yourself. I hope they give a better detailed account of what happened here, and why. I would, for one, want to make sure the right party got put away for this number one..and number two, use it to launch a better system for autopsy's and results for the community at large.

[JenyEliza]

Ya know...that I am not sure of Hadassah....but very good question. Very well could be that in Florida..it is not SOP. It is somewhere in my head though...that along all my years, within the medical field..that anything labeled suspicious..or illicit, or even strong suspicion of dirty deeds, warranted what we call a full tox screen. But maybe Florida has a different standard?...good question though! Should be SOP in this day in age..with so many attempting it.

Why would Florida have anything to do with this man's autopsy? He died at a Marine base called Miramar near San Diego, CA.

Like mothers who have Munchausen Syndrome (either with or without Proxy) use everyday household items to 'keep' their kids sick. Pesticides, lawn fertilizer, Anti-freeze, Insulin, etc etc etc. Since that is not a locality issue, and is a personal issue, it was my understanding that under the title Suspicious Death, UnNatural Death or UnTimely death, which each requires an autopsy..that automatically those known substances are immediately checked for.

IMHO, Munchausen by Proxy is a voo-doo diagnosis/science and a suspicious (to me) label to hang on someone.

These days there are an awful lot of parents being labeled with that diagnosis and jailed for killing or harming their child, when in fact they didn't do anything to harm their child at all.

CPS agencies are famous for pushing the MBP diagnosis and having parents arrested when a child/family under their supervision appears to be abused, neglected or mistreated and they, nor the medical community, can pin down the exact cause of a child's chronic illnesses.

That's not to say that I don't believe there *are* people who actually do have MBP, but I just don't think it's nearly as prevalent as CPS and some doctors would have us believe.

My personal feeling is that it is an over-used catch-all that allows CPS social workers and doctors feel like they're helping children and doing their jobs--in the absence of a good, hard and fast diagnosis for the child's medical problems. Those who are in the position of making these judgements about parents and destroying lives and families with arrest warrants and foster homes should proceed cautiously with using the MBP diagnosis.

Just my .02 on that, which has absolutely nothing to do with the OP or the current topic at hand. ;) :D

[mysticbeauty_nbeast]

You would think that with the first decedent being a POLICE OFFICER, that his death would have been completely and thoroughly investigated--including full Toxicology. However, they didn't even bother with toxicology with him. It wasn't until the second guy, a FIREFIGHTER, turned up dead in eerily similar circumstances that anyone did the math and said "this isn't right" and took a closer look. They had to DIG UP the first husband to get tissue samples to test. Good damned thing his family hadn't had him cremated. :eek:

If that can happen to a POLICE OFFICER and a FIREFIGHTER...why not to a Marine as well?

You're right...in all three cases, toxicology should have been done STAT and the death certicificates should NEVER have been signed by the coroner without those results, since all three men were young, healthy and in excellent shape--there should have been no reason to accept "natural death" without fully looking at EVERYTHING first.



Yep. Those "black widows" disgusting. They are fleas on amoebas on rats. Worst of the worst womanhood has to offer this world. I have NO tolerance for them and the heartache and pain the cause everyone around them.



I am too. And you know those families are too. And I do believe you know the subject matter, but I think you're very professional and used to things being done the *right way*, when that is not always the case in other parts of the country, kwim? Maybe that is why you're having such a hard time accepting the probability that someone just really dropped the ball in this Marine's case. In fact, I'm guessing that's exactly why. You're a professional who isn't used to dealing with incompentance.



I think they did keep a close eye one her, even though they didn't arrest her right off the bat. They took their time building the case, but they didn't take her off the radar. She killed her husband in San Diego, but she was arrested in the FL. Keys. Someone involved in the investigation kept tabs on where she was and what she was doing....while they built that case.



I don't have confirmed answers about the "whys"--only my hunches and suspicions, and that's pretty much all we have to go on right now. The rest we will have to wait and find out as more information is released.

Jen


Jen-
I think that what you propose here could be right. How sad is that? I have had the great honor and pleasure of working with some of our States finest surgeons and doctors. Later on in my career, I was blessed to have worked within part of the legal system as it applied to the County/State Jail system. In this, I learned the connection that can exist between the two fields.

I found it fascinating..well I still do; how someone could have dropped the ball...unless it was prior to the early 1990's when the rash of cases demanded to have the tox screen scope widened?..could be the only discrepancy I can think of as it applies to this subject.
There is just no excuse in today's climate of legalities and medicine not to cover all the basics, especially in cases where foul play may be the key!
Interesting post..and I appreciate the good thinking points you brought to the posts.

[mysticbeauty_nbeast]

Why would Florida have anything to do with this man's autopsy? He died at a Marine base called Miramar near San Diego, CA.

It was done in Diego then? Dear Lord...they should have known better then. I was born and raised in So.Cal..but live in No. Cal for the past twenty years. Yeah, I know the city, very well in-fact. Shame on them...shame!



IMHO, Munchhausen by Proxy is a voo-doo diagnosis/science and a suspicious (to me) label to hang on someone.

These days there are an awful lot of parents being labeled with that diagnosis and jailed for killing or harming their child, when in fact they didn't do anything to harm their child at all.

There are documented cases..though Like you, I believe them to be less prevalent then doctors or CPS wish us to believe. Either way, it is still sick. I gave it as a reason however, or one of the many reason's that tox screens in autopsy's have been widened..along with the rash of poison cases that cause death/sever illness.

CPS agencies are famous for pushing the MBP diagnosis and having parents arrested when a child/family under their supervision appears to be abused, neglected or mistreated and they, nor the medical community, can pin down the exact cause of a child's chronic illnesses.

That's not to say that I don't believe there *are* people who actually do have MBP, but I just don't think it's nearly as prevalent as CPS and some doctors would have us believe.

My personal feeling is that it is an over-used catch-all that allows CPS social workers and doctors feel like they're helping children and doing their jobs--in the absence of a good, hard and fast diagnosis for the child's medical problems. Those who are in the position of making these judgements about parents and destroying lives and families with arrest warrants and foster homes should proceed cautiously with using the MBP diagnosis.

Just my .02 on that, which has absolutely nothing to do with the OP or the current topic at hand. ;) :D

Oh don't even get me started on CPS....some good people work there with good intentions..and that is all I can say...as everything else is not as nice I can assure you. I agree as well that the dx is used far to much. It is used against parents, when in fact a genetic disorder is to blame..that no one had tested for. When no explanation can be reached..it must be, according to CPS and medical staff, that the parents have a hand in the foul play. However, it does prove out how I think...to much of this has gone on...I would like to know the facts..and unlike CPS or lazy doctors, before I jump to conclusions. Hopefully both of our questions will be answered over the next few weeks.

[Supernova]

I just found out how they test for arsenic.

Marsh test
Related: Chemistry

method for the detection of arsenic , so sensitive that it can be used to detect minute amounts of arsenic in foods (the residue of fruit spray) or in stomach contents. The sample is placed in a flask with arsenic-free zinc and sulfuric acid. Arsine gas (also hydrogen) forms and is led through a drying tube to a hard glass tube in which it is heated. The arsenic is deposited as a “mirror” just beyond the heated area and on any cold surface held in the burning gas emanating from the jet. Antimony gives a similar test, but the deposit is insoluble in sodium hypochlorite, whereas arsenic will dissolve. The test was named for its inventor, the English chemist James Marsh.
http://www.encyclopedia.com/html/M/Marshtes.asp

I remember seeing this being done on an episode of Forensic Files. :)

[mysticbeauty_nbeast]

I just found out how they test for arsenic.


http://www.encyclopedia.com/html/M/Marshtes.asp

I remember seeing this being done on an episode of Forensic Files. :)

That's good information to have. Thank you for posting it Fudd. I have never worked in labratory..nor am I a doctor...but still, great info!

[jeepers]

Your correct..ordering up a chem 7 or chem 21 or a full RBC/WBC or even CBC for a patient is allot different then say an autopsy on a young healthy male of 23, with no disease process evident in history or tissues.

Now unlike a hospital patient..where a base line is present with regular blood work..and autopsy does not have that advantage. I know I have not been in the field itself for over ten years..but when I left..SOP was to check for all toxins present..with the exception of fine toxins that can be introduced into the body. (Like Fudd posted...fine toxins such as this must have probable cause to assume they had been introduced into the patients system, and killed them.) Things that did not used to be common, like arsenic or floor cleaner, or Windex, or even lead..have now become common place within a death and it's consequential autopsy, within a Full Toxicology Screen. Illicit drugs, like in a floor patient having a tox screen ordered, is going to show a similar, but lessened field of the full tox screen.

I wouldn't assume that a patient has baseline labs. Patients can come into the ER in distress with no baseline at all. Or a skimpy baseline (like a CBC without a differential, etc.) A chem 7 but not a 20. And Tox Screens are definitely not done on every patient admitted.

If they did the gross physical examination and thought t hat they had come up with a 'reason' for a cause of death, there wouldn't be any impetus to go further.

Or perhaps, they were overloaded that week, didn't see any obvious first signs of foul play when they should have, and just dropped the ball. Or (e) all of the above, kwim?

When talking about a government system, I would always assume that someone screwed up.

[Hadassah]

I wonder if there's a way to find out what standard operating procedure is in autopsies? (except in Cal., mystic has done a good job with that)I would love to know if they vary state to state, military to civilian.

Just to throw something out there---it is SOP here in NY, at least, to do autopsies on unattended deaths, esp. children. However, I did take care of a little boy with a fatal genetic disease, who died, at home, with mom. He was in his room, sleeping, she was cooking dinner, or taking a shower----something like that. She went to check on him and found him dead. The hospital wanted an autopsy done because it was an unattended death, but, luckily, his pulmonary doctor and his pediatrician were there and convinced the hospital to not do it. They basically said, "Look at his charts. We know why he died!"

So, my point is, maybe when they think they know, they don't do everything they are supposed to. There's no reason to, as in the case of this little boy.

[mysticbeauty_nbeast]

If anything this thread has brought up a very important topic, that for the most part has been ignored by legislative bodies. I do believe it should be SOP, on any suspicious death, to commence with a through autopsy and blood panel/tox screen. What is considered a suspicious death is any death that occurs with a 0-70 year old person. Natural causes still need to be determined as well, unless it can be predetermined by a hospital stay for a disease process. All autopsy's, unless fought against in a court of law, legally must take place to determine cause of death.
The money issue was also brought up; However, if we look at money and how much is spent in one investigation of one person at any given time; the money that would be saved from time on cases, detective work, exhuming bodies, family pain and suffering and grief...along with the media frenzy...it just all makes sense to do it right the first time. Saving tax payers thousands of dollars each year.
However, making a procedure SOP, would only cover private/county entities. I do not believe any legislative body can control what a military installation does or does not do in any of it's departments, when it comes to the day to day running of any department. Good question though...good brain candy to think on.

[snagswolf]

What a freaky story!

Actually, my antenna would go up seeing a widow posting on a message board three days after her husband's death.

Doesn't a person have more important things to think about at a time like that?

[JenyEliza]

What a freaky story!

Actually, my antenna would go up seeing a widow posting on a message board three days after her husband's death.

Doesn't a person have more important things to think about at a time like that?

One would think so. :eek:

I know I wouldn't be posting 3 days after losing my husband (if I had one, that is). ;)

_________

[justpourthecoffee]

On February 18, 2002 , Cindy Sommer's husband, Sgt. Todd Sommer, USMC, died following a brief illness. Cause of death listed on autopsy was cardiac arrhythmia, etiology unknown. His heart was later labeled "morphologically normal", which is quite plausible in the presence of an arrhythmia.

NCIS launched an investigation into Todd's death in May of 2003. Cindy was arrested for murder in 2005.

Despite: claims by investigators that the tape recorder used in the initial interview with Cindy “broke” and they reconstructed the interview from memory; babysitter testimony that conflicts with that of first responders and telephone records; and countless lab discrepancies including breaks in chain of evidence, no quality controls, and defense expert testimony that the results of the AFIP heavy metals testing were inconsistent with arsenic poisoning; Cindy Sommer was found guilty in January 2007 of murder by arsenic poisoning for financial gain.

The scientific evidence does not support death by arsenic poisoning. There is no evidence Todd Sommer was murdered.

http://www.cynthiasommerdefense.com/

[moda]

On February 18, 2002 , Cindy Sommer's husband, Sgt. Todd Sommer, USMC, died following a brief illness. Cause of death listed on autopsy was cardiac arrhythmia, etiology unknown. His heart was later labeled "morphologically normal", which is quite plausible in the presence of an arrhythmia.

NCIS launched an investigation into Todd's death in May of 2003. Cindy was arrested for murder in 2005.

Despite: claims by investigators that the tape recorder used in the initial interview with Cindy “broke” and they reconstructed the interview from memory; babysitter testimony that conflicts with that of first responders and telephone records; and countless lab discrepancies including breaks in chain of evidence, no quality controls, and defense expert testimony that the results of the AFIP heavy metals testing were inconsistent with arsenic poisoning; Cindy Sommer was found guilty in January 2007 of murder by arsenic poisoning for financial gain.

The scientific evidence does not support death by arsenic poisoning. There is no evidence Todd Sommer was murdered.

http://www.cynthiasommerdefense.com/


Thanks, coffee. People need to be reminded about this.

[Hadassah]

On February 18, 2002 , Cindy Sommer's husband, Sgt. Todd Sommer, USMC, died following a brief illness. Cause of death listed on autopsy was cardiac arrhythmia, etiology unknown. His heart was later labeled "morphologically normal", which is quite plausible in the presence of an arrhythmia.

NCIS launched an investigation into Todd's death in May of 2003. Cindy was arrested for murder in 2005.

Despite: claims by investigators that the tape recorder used in the initial interview with Cindy “broke” and they reconstructed the interview from memory; babysitter testimony that conflicts with that of first responders and telephone records; and countless lab discrepancies including breaks in chain of evidence, no quality controls, and defense expert testimony that the results of the AFIP heavy metals testing were inconsistent with arsenic poisoning; Cindy Sommer was found guilty in January 2007 of murder by arsenic poisoning for financial gain.

The scientific evidence does not support death by arsenic poisoning. There is no evidence Todd Sommer was murdered.

http://www.cynthiasommerdefense.com/



I used to think she was guilty as sin. However, after watching a program about this (48 Hours, I think), I'm not so sure anymore.