Droog's Concise Guide to Islam

[Droog]

Five simple concepts you need to know about Islam, how Islamic law is shaped, and how to sift through the lies and propaganda spewed by the "moderates". I will go through the basics in this opening post, and then get specific, citing the scriptures, in following posts, as well as provide a selected glossary of terms you need to understand as well. With these tools in hand, understanding the Religion of Peace as it pertains to Western society is far more simple than the apologists make it out to be. This is the Islam that Muhammad preached, the Islam that Muhammad ruled the first Islamic state by. It is not my "version" or my "opinion".

Abrogation

To the kafur (disbelievers in Islam), the Qur'an contains many contradictions. On the one hand, there are verses that appear to promote peaceful co-existance between Muslims and kafur; on the other hand, there are extremely violent and viciously intolerant verses as well. Can a Muslim "pick and choose"? What do these contradictions mean?

To the Muslim, the Qur'an contains no contradictions. How can God contradict Himself? There are merely instances where God sent down a commandment and then at a later time changed his mind about it. This is known as abrogation. There are a few verses in the Qur'an that deal with this. See following posts for what they say.

Progressive Revelation

If God changes His mind in the Qur'an then it becomes essential to know exactly what He changed His mind about and what He replaced with what. Thus the chronology of the Qur'an becomes essential.

When you open up a Qur'an you see that it is divided into 114 surahs (chapters). There are no other divisions to it, like there is the Old and New Testament of the Bible, for example. After the first surah, which is kind of like a Lord's Prayer of Islam, all chapters are presented from longest surah ("The Cow, 286 verses) to the shortest ("Mankind", 6 verses). But to Islamic jurists, there are different periods of revelation, and two distinct tones to the commandments revealed in these respective periods.

Scholars differ on the exact chronology of the surahs. Theodore Noldeke's is the widest accepted presentation, found here (http://mindfilter.net/chronorev.html). All scholars, however, divide the surahs into Meccan and Medinan periods. With hardly an exception, all of the tolerant, peaceful verses appear in the earlier Meccan surahs. Muhammad was a wannabe prophet, in a city full of pagans, Jews, and Christians with their own accepted, established religious practices. He needed them to listen to them. The original qiblah (direction faced when praying) was towards Jerusalem, not Mecca. Muhammad had to deal with the various tauntings and abuses meted out by the people of his city, particularly the pagans who ran the city, since the kabaa was a source of wealth due to pilgrims and merchants who often stopped there as they traveled between Syria and Yemen. Thus the verses he "recieved" in Mecca were often warnings to mankind and pleas for them to listen to God's final prophet.

In Medina, Muhammad becomes powerful. His raids on Meccan caravans bring him growing wealth and prestige, and a greater following. In medieval Arabia, concepts of right and wrong were associated with victory and defeat. Those who were right were victorious; those who were wrong were defeated. Muhammad was usually victorious.

As his following grew with each military victory and his ever growing treasury, his need for Jews and Christians and pagans to hear him lessened to the point where he had no need for them at all, and in fact felt them deserving of his now powerful wrath. Thus verses towards disbelievers become increasingly vicious and hateful, ending with surah 5, which commands ALL Muslims to never take ANY Jews and Christians for friends and protectors. This follows chapter 9, which exhorts Muslims to kill the Mushrikun wherever they can be found using every method of warfare...until they pay the poll tax in humiliation recognizing the superiority of Islam. The contrast is made more clear in following posts.

Thus, when Islamic jurists view contradicting verses in the Qur'an, it is the verse from the later period that takes precedent, and again in almost all cases the peaceful verses of Mecca are abrogated by the violence of Medina. Several surahs follow the Medinan surah 2, which contains the apologists' favorite no compulsion in religion, one of which of course is the command to fight the disbelievers until they pay a discriminatory poll tax and feel humiliated. If that's not religious compulsion I don't know what is.

All knowledgable Muslims are aware of these concepts.

The Sunnah: Muhammad's Example

The Qur'an, in several verses, teaches Muslims that Muhammad was essentially a perfect person, and that his example is a good one for those who wish to meet Allah in the Hereafter. Thus Muslims value the sunnah as nearly equal in religious importance to the Qur'an. A Muslim may not practice Islam without consulting both (see HERE (http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/)).

The Sunnah clarifies alot that may be confusing or vague about the Qur'an, and is essential when dictating shari'a law. A proper fatwa must cite both the Qur'an and the sunnah. Anyone who claims there is no violence in the Qur'an is not only a liar but is also intentionally ignoring the violence and debauchery of Muhammad's example that make the violence contained therein all the more worse. I will provide an example (the examples are far too numerous to bother with) that epitomizes the relationship between the Qur'an and the sunnah in the next post.

But essentially, the sunnah allows for every conceivable act of debauchery and what we consider today to be criminality, with the exception of cannibalism. Imagine every form of crime against humanity, from pedophilia to rape to mass murder: Muhammad is guilty by way of Islam's most authentic texts.

It is no surprise that many Western "Muslims" attempt to dismiss the sunnah as part of Islam (see HERE--our friend American Muslim is a member (http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/notislam/#submitters)), as if the Qur'an by itself were an example of love and tolerance. However, historically the sunnah has been part of Islam, and is a major factor in Islam's terrible history.

Jihad

Jihad is a term that is hotly debated and widely misunderstood, even by many of today's Muslims. Does it mean "holy war"? "Struggle"? What is the difference between the lesser jihad and the greater jihad? What is the real meaning of the jihad verses in the Qur'an? Can we ignore them or relativise them? What is their proper context?

Jihad is often considered the "sixth pillar" of Islam. It comes from the Arabic verb jahada, which means "he strove". Jihad is often referred to as "struggle" or "striving" in the way of God. It can mean different things, one of which can be deemed "holy fighting", the concept of which is far more prevalent in Islamic texts than the so-called "greater" jihad.

The hadiths of Bukhari and Muslim contain entire books on jihad, and the Qur'an is littered with verses devoted to it. It's not a pretty sight. The first verse of the Qur'an that deals with jihad is 002.190, for which the Qur'an translated by Al-Hilali and Khan provides the following footnote:Al-Jihâd (holy fighting) in Allâh’s Cause (with full force of numbers and weaponry) is given the utmost importance in Islam and is one of its pillars (on which it stands). By Jihâd Islam is established, Allâh’s Word is made superior (His Word being Lâ ilaha illallâh which means none has the right to be worshipped but Allâh), and His religion (Islam) is propagated. By abandoning Jihâd (may Allâh protect us from that) Islam is destroyed and the Muslims fall into an inferior position; their honor is lost, their lands are stolen, their rule and authority vanish. Jihâd is an obligatory duty in Islam on every Muslim, and he who tries to escape from this duty, or does not in his innermost heart wish to fulfill this duty, dies with one of the qualities of a hypocrite.
I will go into scriptural detail regarding this commentary in the following posts.

Continued...

[Droog]

Islam's Historical Mainstream

I want to make this post as concise as possible, so I will not go into detail into the history of Islamic-inspired holy war throughout its entire history. Suffice it to say that Islamic jihad has killed more people than any of the world's most notorious ideologies combined. The Rightly Guided conquered Egypt to Persia; Palestine to the Caucasus. Their successors conquered all of North Africa and Spain. They pushed into France but were defeated. They conquered Asia Minor and eventually Constantinople. These were all Christian lands. They DEVESTATED India, at the time one of the three greatest civilizations in history. Tens of thousands of temples were destroyed and their remains were used to build mosques on top of their foundations. The riches stolen from India and dispersed throughout the Muslim world are impossible to put a price on.

The Crusades were the result of 450+ years of jihad against Christians.

The cruelty of the Ottoman Empire is one of the great untold--or should I say covered up--stories in history. If Islam is a religion of peace why has it ALWAYS been associated with war? Why did the first Rightly Guided caliph, Abu Bakr, make war on apostates after the death of the prophet? Why did he and his successors, particularly Umar, make perpetual war upon the neighbors of the new Islamic state? How did that state begin simply with Mecca and Medina and then, by the time all of Rightly Guided were dead, cover Egypt to Persia; Palestine to the Caucasus?

Islam is a religion that was created by 7th century bedouins for 7th century bedouins. It was not meant to be practiced in our 21st century world. The conquests undertaken by the early Muslims would have taken place without Islam, but that way of life--murder, pillage, rape--was forever preserved by the religion given to it.

The notion of a tolerant, multi-cultural, pluralistic Islam crumbles to dust upon careful examination of Islamic texts as well as an honest, unrefined, politically-incorrect look at its history. Wherever Islam has clashed with other cultures, whatever record there is of peaceful co-existance is far outweighed by the record of human tragedy.

[Mike88]

Excellent. This thread has been bookmarked...

[Droog]

Examples of Abrogation and Progressive Revelation in the Qur'an
As I mentioned earlier, the tone of Muhammad's revelations changed drastically after the hegira to Yathrib, where he established a base of power, complete with a substancial and ever-growing treasury and a consideral number of soldiers to fight at his call. Previous to this, Muhammad wished deeply for the pagans, Christians, and Jews to believe in his message and convert to Islam. He needed them. Thus, there are several verses in the Qur'an which appear to show tolerance and respect towards the People of the Book (Jews and Christians):
[016.125-126 (http://www.ummah.net/what-is-islam/quran/noble/nobe016.htm#125)] Invite (mankind) to the Way of your Lord with wisdom (i.e. with the Divine Inspiration and the Qur'ân) and fair preaching, and argue with them in a way that is better. Truly, your Lord knows best who has gone astray from His Path, and He is the Best Aware of those who are guided. And if you punish (your enemy, O you believers in the Oneness of Allâh), then punish them with the like of that with which you were afflicted. But if you endure patiently, verily, it is better for As-Sâbirin (the patient ones, etc.).
[029.046 (http://www.ummah.net/what-is-islam/quran/noble/nobe029.htm#46)] And argue not with the people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians), unless it be in (a way) that is better (with good words and in good manner, inviting them to Islâmic Monotheism with His Verses), except with such of them as do wrong, and say (to them): "We believe in that which has been revealed to us and revealed to you; our Ilâh (God) and your Ilâh (God) is One (i.e. Allâh), and to Him we have submitted."
[052.045 (http://www.ummah.net/what-is-islam/quran/noble/nobe052.htm#45)] So leave them [the disbelievers] alone till they meet their Day, in which they will sink into a fainting (with horror).
[073.010-011 (http://www.ummah.net/what-is-islam/quran/noble/nobe073.htm#10)] And be patient with what they say, and keep away from them in a good way. And leave Me Alone to deal with the beliers (those who deny My Verses, etc.), and those who are in possession of good things of life. And give them respite for a little while.
[109-001.006 (http://www.ummah.net/what-is-islam/quran/noble/nobe109.htm)] Say (O Muhammad to these Mushrikûn and Kâfirûn): "O Al-Kâfirûn (disbelievers in Allâh, in His Oneness, in His Angels, in His Books, in His Messengers, in the Day of Resurrection, and in Al-Qadar, etc.)! "I worship not that which you worship, Nor will you worship that which I worship. "And I shall not worship that which you are worshipping. Nor will you worship that which I worship. To you be your religion, and to me my religion."
This of course is in contradiction to several other verses, one in which Allah turns the Jews into apes and pigs; another, here, which warns Muslims against taking Jews and Christians as friends and allies:
[005.051 (http://www.ummah.net/what-is-islam/quran/noble/nobe005.htm#51)] O you who believe! Take not the Jews and the Christians as Auliyâ' (friends, protectors, helpers, etc.), they are but Auliyâ' to one another. And if any amongst you takes them as Auliyâ', then surely he is one of them. Verily, Allâh guides not those people who are the Zâlimûn (polytheists and wrong*doers and unjust). As those of us aware of the example of the Jews of the Banu Qurayza and the Banu Nadir know well, being one of them had become unpleasant towards the end of Muhammad's life. Indeed, anyone who is considered to have turned their backs on Islam, whether it be to make friends with Jews or Christians, or to leave Islam completely, or even to call into question a single commandment of God's, is punishable by death by Islamic law--the Word of God and the example of Muhammad:
[002.085 (http://www.ummah.net/what-is-islam/quran/noble/nobe002.htm#85)] Then do you believe in a part of the Scripture and reject the rest? Then what is the recompense of those who do so among you, except disgrace in the life of this world, and on the Day of Resurrection they shall be consigned to the most grievous torment. And Allâh is not unaware of what you do.
[002.217 (http://www.ummah.net/what-is-islam/quran/noble/nobe002.htm#217)] And they will never cease fighting you until they turn you back from your religion (Islâmic Monotheism) if they can. And whosoever of you turns back from his religion and dies as a disbeliever, then his deeds will be lost in this life and in the Hereafter, and they will be the dwellers of the Fire. They will abide therein forever.
[004.089 (http://www.ummah.net/what-is-islam/quran/noble/nobe004.htm#89)] They wish that you reject Faith, as they have rejected (Faith), and thus that you all become equal (like one another). So take not Auliyâ' (protectors or friends) from them, till they emigrate in the Way of Allâh (to Muhammad SAW). But if they turn back (from Islâm), take (hold) of them and kill them wherever you find them, and take neither Auliyâ' (protectors or friends) nor helpers from them.
[BUKHARI 009.084.064 (http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/084.sbt.html#009.084.064)] No doubt I heard Allah's Apostle saying, "During the last days there will appear some young foolish people who will say the best words but their faith will not go beyond their throats (i.e. they will have no faith) and will go out from (leave) their religion as an arrow goes out of the game. So, where-ever you find them, kill them, for who-ever kills them shall have reward on the Day of Resurrection." There are dozens of Qur'anic verse and hadith which seem to contradict the five tolerant verses quoted previously. Where does this fall into place? To understand this we must understand the concept of abrogation and then view the revelations in the (theoretical) order in which they were recieved. Abrogation, put in simple terms, means that God decided to change his mind and replaced an earlier revelation with one that is alike to it or better:
[002.106 (http://www.ummah.net/what-is-islam/quran/noble/nobe002.htm#106)] Whatever a Verse (revelation) do We ["We" being Allah referring to Himself in the royal plurality] abrogate or cause to be forgotten, We bring a better one or similar to it. Know you not that Allâh is able to do all things?
[016.101 (http://www.ummah.net/what-is-islam/quran/noble/nobe016.htm#101)] And when We change a Verse [of the Qur'ân, i.e. cancel (abrogate) its order] in place of another, and Allâh knows the best of what He sends down, they (the disbelievers) say: "You (O Muhammad SAW) are but a Muftari! (forger, liar)." Nay, but most of them know not.

Continued...

[Droog]

Indeed, all of the violent jihad verses appear while Muhammad was in Medina. Surah 9 (113th) arrives just before surah 5, and chapters 2 (91st), 3 (97th), 4 (100th), and 8 (95th), among the more disturbing chapters, all appear towards the end of Muhammad's life. Take note of the contrast:


[002.193 (http://www.ummah.net/what-is-islam/quran/noble/nobe002.htm#193)] And fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief and worshipping of others along with Allâh) and (all and every kind of) worship is for Allâh (alone).
[003.151-152 (http://www.ummah.net/what-is-islam/quran/noble/nobe003.htm#151)] We shall cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve, because they joined others in worship with Allâh, for which He had sent no authority; their abode will be the Fire, and evil is the abode of the unjust. And Allâh did indeed fulfil His Promise to you when you were killing them (your enemy) by His permission.
[004.101 (http://www.ummah.net/what-is-islam/quran/noble/nobe004.htm#101)] Surely the disbelievers are ever unto you open enemies.
[004.089 (http://www.ummah.net/what-is-islam/quran/noble/nobe004.htm#89)] They wish that you reject Faith, as they have rejected (Faith), and thus that you all become equal (like one another). So take not Auliyâ' (protectors or friends) from them, till they emigrate in the Way of Allâh (to Muhammad SAW). But if they turn back (from Islâm), take (hold) of them and kill them wherever you find them, and take neither Auliyâ' (protectors or friends) nor helpers from them.
[005.033-034 (http://www.ummah.net/what-is-islam/quran/noble/nobe005.htm#33)] The recompense of those who wage war against Allâh and His messenger and strive to make mischief in the land is only that they shall be killed or crucified or their hands and their feet be cut off on opposite sides, or be exiled from the land. That is their disgrace in this world, and a great torment is theirs in the hereafter. Except for those who (having fled away and then) came back (as Muslims) with repentence before they fall into your power; in that case, know that Allâh is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.
[005.051 (http://www.ummah.net/what-is-islam/quran/noble/nobe005.htm#51)] O you who believe! Take not the Jews and the Christians as Auliyâ' (friends, protectors, helpers), they are but Auliyâ' of each other. And if any amongst you takes them (as Auliyâ'), then surely, he is one of them. Verily, Allâh guides not those people who are Zâlimûn (unjust).
[005.060 (http://www.ummah.net/what-is-islam/quran/noble/nobe005.htm#60)] Say (O Muhammad SAW to the people of the Scripture): "Shall I inform you of something worse than that, regarding the recompense from Allâh: those (Jews) who incurred the Curse of Allâh and His Wrath, those of whom He transformed into monkeys and swines.
[008.012-013 (http://www.ummah.net/what-is-islam/quran/noble/nobe008.htm#12)] (Remember) when your Lord revealed to the angels, "Verily, I am with you, so keep firm those who have believed. I will cast terror into the hearts of those who have disbelieved, so strike off their heads and strike off all their fingertips and toes. This is because they defied and disobeyed Allâh and His Messenger. And whoever defies and disobeys Allâh and His Messenger, then verily, Allâh is severe in punishment.
[008.012-013 (http://www.ummah.net/what-is-islam/quran/noble/nobe008.htm#39)] And fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief and polytheism: i.e. worshipping others besides Allâh) and the religion (worship) will all be for Allâh Alone . But if they cease (worshipping others besides Allâh), then certainly, Allâh is All-Seer of what they do.
[008.022 (http://www.ummah.net/what-is-islam/quran/noble/nobe008.htm#22)] Verily! The worst of (moving) living creatures with Allâh are the deaf and the dumb, those who understand not (i.e. the disbelievers).
[009.005 (http://www.ummah.net/what-is-islam/quran/noble/nobe009.htm#5)] Then when the sacred months have past, kill the [i]Mushrikûn (idolators, polytheists, disbelievers in the Oneness of Allâh, pagans) wherever you find them, and capture them and besiege them, and lie in wait for them in every ambush. But if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practise regular charity, then open the way for them. Verily Allâh is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.
[009.014 (http://www.ummah.net/what-is-islam/quran/noble/nobe009.htm#14)] Fight them, Allâh will punish them by your hands and bring them to disgrace, and assist you against them and heal the hearts of a believing people.
[009.073 (http://www.ummah.net/what-is-islam/quran/noble/nobe009.htm#73)] O Prophet! Strive against the disbelievers and the hypocrites! Be harsh with them; and their abode is hell, and evil is the destination.
Thus the rare tolerant verses found in the Qur'an were all replaced, or abrogated, by the myriad, frequent violent, hateful verses revealed at later dates, and it is these later verses which Muslim scholars throughout history have taken to be the authority. Again, it is important to note that individual Muslims, by their own ability to reason, have the power to decide for themselves how to interpret Islamic doctrine. Many of them, particularly in the West, may not even be aware of abrogation, or recognize its importance. They may think that where the Qur'an contradicts itself, the Muslim is free to choose which idea to latch onto. The point is, as always, that what we in the West consider to be the "extreme" or "radical" interpretation is only extreme or radical in contrast with our own Western sense of morality; it is still a correct way of looking at it, and, with the example of Muhammad's life in mind, probably the most accurate. It is not extreme at all, not when taken in context with scripture.

[Droog]

As promised earlier, I'll go into the scriptural basis for the commentary on verse 2.190 in my Qur'an. I'll quote verse 2.190, as well as re-quote the commentary:[002.190 (http://www.ummah.net/what-is-islam/quran/noble/nobe002.htm#190)] And fight in the Way of Allâh* those who fight you, but transgress not the limits. Truly, Allâh likes not the transgressors.Al-Jihâd (holy fighting) in Allâh’s Cause (with full force of numbers and weaponry) is given the utmost importance in Islam and is one of its pillars (on which it stands). By Jihâd Islam is established, Allâh’s Word is made superior (His Word being Lâ ilaha illallâh which means none has the right to be worshipped but Allâh), and His religion (Islam) is propagated. By abandoning Jihâd (may Allâh protect us from that) Islam is destroyed and the Muslims fall into an inferior position; their honor is lost, their lands are stolen, their rule and authority vanish. Jihâd is an obligatory duty in Islam on every Muslim, and he who tries to escape from this duty, or does not in his innermost heart wish to fulfill this duty, dies with one of the qualities of a hypocrite.
is what's known as tafsir, or Qur'anic commentary, which provides the Muslim with the proper interpretation and context of Qur'anic verse. Since Al-Hilali and Khan could easily be dismissed as extreme, radical, or just plain wrong by someone who is not aware of Islamic scripture (or is lying through his teeth), let's provide our own context to that footnote by quoting directly from the Qur'an and the hadith and using our own common sense. Al-Hilali and Khan tell us that By Jihâd Islam is established, Allâh’s Word is made superior, and His religion (Islam) is propagated. This sentence is of utmost importance and is pivotal to Islam.

First, there are two verses in the Qur'an which basically say the same thing: Fight the disbelievers until only Allah is worshipped:

[002.193 (http://www.ummah.net/what-is-islam/quran/noble/nobe002.htm#193)] And fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief and worshipping of others along with Allâh) and (all and every kind of) worship is for Allâh (alone).

[008.039 (http://www.ummah.net/what-is-islam/quran/noble/nobe008.htm#39)] And fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief and polytheism: i.e. worshipping others besides Allâh) and the religion (worship) will all be for Allâh Alone . But if they cease (worshipping others besides Allâh), then certainly, Allâh is All-Seer of what they do. Those familiar with the various English interpretations may have noticed that the term fitnah is a source of confusion. Of the four available (that I have seen) interpretations of the Qur'an online--Marmaduke Mohammad Pickthall, M. H. Shakir, Yusuf Ali, and Dr. Muhammad Taqi-ud-Din Al-Hilali & Dr. Muhammad Muhsin Khan--only the Al-Hilali/Khan Qur'an leaves the Arabic term fitnah in the verse and adds their own interpretation. Compare and contrast:
KHAN/AL-HILALI (http://www.ummah.net/what-is-islam/quran/noble/nobe008.htm#39) And fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief and polytheism: i.e. worshipping others besides Allâh) and the religion (worship) will all be for Allâh Alone [in the whole of the world]. But if they cease (worshipping others besides Allâh), then certainly, Allâh is All-Seer of what they do.
YUSUF ALI (http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/008.qmt.html#008.039) And fight them on until there is no more tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in Allah altogether and everywhere; but if they cease, verily Allah doth see all that they do.
PICKTHAL (http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/008.qmt.html#008.039) And fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is all for Allah. But if they cease, then lo! Allah is Seer of what they do.
SHAKIR (http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/008.qmt.html#008.039) And fight with them until there is no more persecution and religion should be only for Allah; but if they desist, then surely Allah sees what they do.
Obviously Yusuf Ali, Pickthal and Shakir translate fitnah to mean tumult, oppression, and persecution, whereas Khan/Al-Hilali interpret it to mean disbelief and polytheism: i.e. worshipping others besides Allâh. This is important, because one translation shows a commandment that declares anyone who does not worship Allah an enemy that must be fought against, while the other three make it seem as though Allah orders Muslims to fight only those who persecute or oppress them. Which is correct? And how does Islam define 'persecution' and 'oppression'?

Interpretations of verse are not always trustworthy. Muslim interpreters and propagandists have the luxury of knowing that the vast majority of Westerners cannot read or speak Arabic, thus they are free to decieve us as they will. Fortunately for us, the Khan/Hilali Qur'an often intermixes Arabic terminology where they apparently feel the English translation is inappropriate or inadequate, and these terms often provide insight where other translations confuse. So we focus on source of the confusion, the Arabic word fitnah. According to T.S. Hughes' Dictionary of Islam, fitnah is defined as sedition (http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=sedition) (incitement of resistance to or insurrection against lawful authority); strife (http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=strife) (bitter sometimes violent conflict or dissension); commotion (http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=commotion) (a condition of civil unrest or insurrection), a term specially used for those wars and commotions which shall precede the Resurrection.[LINK (http://answering-islam.org.uk/Books/Hughes/f.htm#fitan)]

This suggests that fitnah represents a challenge to lawful authority--Allah's authority--and has nothing to do with persecution or oppression, unless you view it from Allah's point of view, which suggests that not recognizing His authority and hindering others from the Truth is persecution inandof itself.

Further, if this commandment is merely a call to self-defense, then why does Allah order Muslims to fight disbelievers until Islam is the only religion left standing? Two out of the four translations say specifically that Islam must reign supreme throughout the whole of the world; altogether and everywhere. There is no room for negotiation or an alternative end to the hostilities, except of course that any surviving disbelievers repent and convert to Islam. Indeed, the Qur'an and the tradition firmly establishes that there are only three choices disbelievers face: death, subjugation and humiliation, or conversion:
[009.029 (http://www.ummah.net/what-is-islam/quran/noble/nobe009.htm#29)] Fight against those who (1) believe not in Allâh, (2) nor in the Last Day, (3) nor forbid that which hath been forbidden by Allâh and His Messenger, (4) nor acknowledge the religion of Truth (Islam), (even if they are) of the People of the Scripture (Jews and Christians), until they pay the [i]Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.
[MUSLIM 019.4294 (http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/muslim/019.smt.html#019.4294)] It has been reported from Sulaiman b. Buraid through his father that when the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) appointed anyone as leader of an army or detachment he would especially exhort him to fear Allah and to be good to the Muslims who were with him. He would say: Fight in the name of Allah and in the way of Allah. Fight against those who disbelieve in Allah... When you meet your enemies who are polytheists, invite them to three courses of action. If they respond to any one of these, you also accept it and withold yourself from doing them any harm. Invite them to (accept) Islam; if they respond to you, accept it from them and desist from fighting against them. Then invite them to migrate from their lands to the land of Muhairs and inform them that, if they do so, they shall have all the privileges and obligations of the Muhajirs. If they refuse to migrate, tell them that they will have the status of Bedouin Muilims and will be subjected to the Commands of Allah like other Muslims, but they will not get any share from the spoils of war or Fai' except when they actually fight with the Muslims (against the disbelievers). If they refuse to accept Islam, demand from them the Jizya. If they agree to pay, accept it from them and hold off your hands. If they refuse to pay the tax, seek Allah's help and fight them.
Continued...

[Droog]

As also mentioned, I will provide an example of how Qu'ranic mandates are solidified by the sunnah. With regards to verses 2.193 and 8.39, the following hadith goes hand in glove:
Allah's apostle said, "I have been ordered (by Allah) to fight against the people until they testify that Lâ ilaha illallâh wa Anna Muhammad-ur-Rasûl Allâh (none has the right to be worshipped but Allah and that Muhammad is Allah's Apostle), and offer the prayers perfectly and give the obligatory charity, so if they perform all that, then they save their lives and property from me except for Islamic laws and then their reckoning (accounts) will be done by Allâh." [LINK (http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/002.sbt.html#001.002.024)]
This is one of the most well-attested traditions of the prophet. Bukhari quotes Muhammad as saying this 5 times; Muslim 3 times, and Abu Dawud once, all through different chains of narration. This means that either Muhammad said it often or to many people or both. Several traditions tell us of a man who came to the Prophet and asked, "A man fights for war booty; another fights for fame and a third fights for showing off; which of them fights in Allah's Cause?" The Prophet said, "He who fights that Allah's Word (i.e. Islam) should be superior, fights in Allah's Cause."[LINK] Clearly the word "fight" is taken to mean "wage war", as Muhammad refers to the way disbelievers can "save their lives and property" from him. We're not talking about "fight" as in "fight global poverty" or "fight against bigotry." And again, we are reminded that Muhammad did not err, nor was he guided by human emotions or desires; he served God faithfully and is a "beautiful pattern to follow for him who hopes in (the Meeting with) Allah." These verses in particular establish Islam's goal of global domination: NO ONE has the right to be worshipped but Allah, and Muslims have been ordered by Allah to fight the disbelievers until the people testify that there is no God but Allah and that Muhammad is the apostle of God.

[Gengar]

Thank you SO much Droog.

[jimmytheclaw]

how about writing a politically incorrect guide?

[Droog]

Thank you SO much Droog.Not a problem. Most of that I've already written before, so it's more like a summary.

By the way, I mentioned verse 2.190, the first verse of the Qur'an related to jihad and thus why the footnote provided was attached to it. This is actually a favorite of jihad apologists and deniers, since it states:...transgress not the limits. Truly, Allâh likes not the transgressors.
But I also spoke of abrogation, and although surah 2 was given towards the end of Muhammad's life (chronologically # 91 accoding to Noldeke), it was still abrogated by verse 36 of surah 9 (chronologically #113):...fight against the Mushrikûn (polytheists, pagans, idolaters, disbelievers in the Oneness of Allâh) collectively, as they fight against you collectively.
This suggests that the Mushrikun (I love that name by the way) commit an act of war simply by refusing to obey Allah and His apostle, since it states that they fight against Islam collectively and thus must be collectively fought against. No one is innocent.

[Droog]

how about writing a politically incorrect guide?Robert Spencer got me beat.

He's a little bit more knowledgable than me ;), although I still think he is too political in his assessments of Islam, particularly with regards to those Muslims trying to reform Islam.

He encourages those people; I condemn them. Islam is not reformable. Reforming Islam is like reforming the Ku Klux Klan.

[KAOSKTRL]

transgress not the limits. Truly, Allâh likes not the transgressors

As for those limits they are.
Dont kill women , You will need them to rape,
Dont kill children, you will need them to be slaves.
Dont kill priest and rabbis , you will them to tease.
Oh a dont kill the old, they are old.

[Droog]

Pretty much, yeah.

And don't forget the jizyah.

[Loyal American]

Robert Spencer got me beat.

He's a little bit more knowledgable than me ;), although I still think he is too political in his assessments of Islam, particularly with regards to those Muslims trying to reform Islam.

He encourages those people; I condemn them. Islam is not reformable. Reforming Islam is like reforming the Ku Klux Klan.



First, thanks for this thread Droog!

My son just gave me Spencer's new book today. Soooooooo, I need to be
careful? He is too political in his Politicially Incorrect Guide????? :eek: :think: :eek: :think: :eek: :think: :eek: :think:

[Droog]

No, he's dead-on when it comes to jihad and where it comes from (the Qur'an and the sunnah).

He just, for whatever reason, has hope for a reform movement that can cleanse jihad from Islam, even though it's one of the pillars upon which Islam stands.

Tough pill for Muslims to swallow.

And they won't.

Ever.

[RadarCat]

Thank you for posting your consise guide to Islam, Droog.

I have downloaded this thread to my hard drive so I'll still have it when this forum decides to not archive it for the public any more.

RadarCat

[Loyal American]

No, he's dead-on when it comes to jihad and where it comes from (the Qur'an and the sunnah).

He just, for whatever reason, has hope for a reform movement that can cleanse jihad from Islam, even though it's one of the pillars upon which Islam stands.

Tough pill for Muslims to swallow.

And they won't.

Ever.



Okay, I am seeing already what you are suggesting in Spencer's book but ya know -what is the solution Droog? If one doesn't hold out some "hope" for reform where does it leave us? I agree with you, it is no doubt FALSE hope but the alternatives are SCARY!!!!!!!!! It is sooooo depressing to think there
can't be an answer, or a happy ending to such a sick (I can't even call it a
religion anymore). I do understand why everyone wants to bring it to a conclusion that is positive. Once you understand the problems - you want to
fix it. I can understand the "hope" thing, can't you?

[Droog]

The alternative is either kill them all or keep them out of our civilization and cut them off economically and politically like we did the Soviets until they realize that Islam is killing them and they concentrate their minds on something that will benefit them and the rest of civilization.

You notice I say "civilization". I mean non-Muslim civilization. The dar al-Harb. In this conflict we have to view ourselves as a civilization, not individual nations, because ultimately that is how Islam sees us. We as Americans are targetted, but the ultimate goal is the complete elimination of the dar al-Harb.

Something has to happen politically to convince China and Russia and France and the whole world to stop dealing with them. That will probably mean inventing a new method of producing energy that doesn't involve oil.

It's going to take a massive effort on the part of non-Muslim nations. We could halt immigration and travel from those countries, but if others don't cooperate, not only will Islam infest and kill whatever culture it implants itself in, but Islamic nations like Iran will soon have nukes and the ability to deliver them, and France is a nuclear armed nation being overwhelmed by exploding Muslim birthrates and birthrates of the indigionous French population that is less than the death rate.

These are all my own solutions, but for the time being the best thing to do is inform as many people as possible so the discussion expands from just a few people on a message board to the talking heads discussing it on nationally-televised programs like O'Reilly and HnC. We'll find a solution when we're all aware.

Let's start there.

Read this post:

http://hannity.com/forum/showthread.php?t=16302

[Loyal American]

Wow, are your solutions going to be in that book you are writing?

[Loyal American]

Droog, I think our leaders know the real deal, no matter what anyone says. President, Pope.....so on. It is the political correct thing that keeps us from
doing some of your solutions now. I guess I can't figure out the timing of all
this, feeling like the leaders need to be doing more NOW!

[Droog]

If they know about Islam's true nature they should simpy say nothing. I understand the need for political expediency--at this point in time for the president to say Islam is really a religion of war would have disasterous implications across the entire political spectrum.

Educating the masses has to be grass roots. When a president can say something like that and not be destroyed politically, then we'll have arrived.

[ELCO14]

Droog- very informative read. Thank you for posting it. I have it saved so I can reread it.

We need to keep this on the first page.

[American Muslim]

Numbers 31:31-40 (King James Version)
King James Version (KJV)


31: And Moses and Eleazar the priest did as the LORD commanded Moses.

32: And the booty, being the rest of the prey which the men of war had caught, was six hundred thousand and seventy thousand and five thousand sheep,

33: And threescore and twelve thousand beeves,

34: And threescore and one thousand asses,

35: And thirty and two thousand persons in all, of women that had not known man by lying with him.

36: And the half, which was the portion of them that went out to war, was in number three hundred thousand and seven and thirty thousand and five hundred sheep:

37: And the LORD'S tribute of the sheep was six hundred and threescore and fifteen.

38: And the beeves were thirty and six thousand; of which the LORD'S tribute was threescore and twelve.

39: And the asses were thirty thousand and five hundred; of which the LORD'S tribute was threescore and one.

40: And the persons were sixteen thousand; of which the LORD'S tribute was thirty and two persons.


THE Religion of peace ?

[Loyal American]

Well, hi there AM! :rolleyes:

[American Muslim]

Well, hi there AM! :rolleyes:

Hello Barbara...

[KAOSKTRL]

21 entries found for irrelevant.
Main Entry: irrelevant
Part of Speech: adjective
Definition: unnecessary
Synonyms: extraneous, foreign, garbage, immaterial, impertinent, inapplicable, inapposite, inappropriate, inapropos, inapt, inconsequent, inconsequential, insignificant, not germane, outside, pointless, remote, trivial, unapt, unconnected, unimportant, unrelated, without reference

[American Muslim]

21 entries found for irrelevant.
Main Entry: irrelevant
Part of Speech: adjective
Definition: unnecessary
Synonyms: extraneous, foreign, garbage, immaterial, impertinent, inapplicable, inapposite, inappropriate, inapropos, inapt, inconsequent, inconsequential, insignificant, not germane, outside, pointless, remote, trivial, unapt, unconnected, unimportant, unrelated, without reference


That's exactly how I feel when you bring some fabricated Hadiths that clearly contradict the Quran.

[wiley8425]

That's exactly how I feel when you bring some fabricated Hadiths that clearly contradict the Quran.

There may be hope for you yet.






Nah.

[KAOSKTRL]

That's exactly how I feel when you bring some fabricated Hadiths that clearly contradict the Quran.
I really couldnt care less how you feel at any time.
you have know idea what is in the Quran so your opinion about Islam is irrelevent.

[wiley8425]

I really couldnt care less how you feel at any time.
you have know idea what is in the Quran so your opinion about Islam is irrelevent.

Hey, if she wants to feel irrelevant, who's to stop her?

[wwrwtw]

Hey, if she wants to feel irrelevant, who's to stop her?
Being an Islamic female she is probably used to it

[Rhonda]

Droog deserves a medal for this!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Thank you Droog, I know how hard it is to put something like this together and thank you for being concise :hug: :flag:

[Sneaky SF Dude]

Being an Islamic female she is probably used to it
That one's going to leave a mark. Won't be able to see it though - burkha and all...

[Rhonda]

AM,

I challenge you to quote some of the NEW Covenent, but I suppose, they will teach you to NEVER do that for it would show the world who the truth about who Jesus is and why He came and even died for you. Christianity is peace, the old Tesament was what we were delivered from. I dare you to read the New testement!!!! We were not called Christians for centuries, find the word Christian in the old testament and I will eat my computer. It speaks of the Annointed One, the Messiah, who will come to save the world. The Bible can always be put to the test and pass, but neither the quran nor hadith or whatever text the mnuslims read can have any real context, just chaos and murder and mahem, intensly confusing and loves to keep its people ignorant, of the truth about Islam and its prophet.

[jimmytheclaw]

Well, Drooog, it was informative, albeit I wouldn't say consise. Islam looks like the opposite of Christianity. They were supposed to be peaceful and went to violent while the Jews fleeing Egypt were told to retake and conquer the lands promised to Abraham. Often leaving none alive. The new covenant brought with it a new and more forgiving approach to life. Love replaces violence in Christ, violence replaces peace in Islam.
That's concise.
Now will we be getting this at Borders or Barnes and Noble next week? Reading it here was hurting my eyes!


speaking of barnes and nobles i just got my politically incorrect guide to islam and the crusades today. very good read so far

[Droog]

That's exactly how I feel when you bring some fabricated Hadiths that clearly contradict the Quran.Why would devout Muslims fabricate hadiths?

[KAOSKTRL]

They must not have been muslims ,
shes a muslim and she will show them how its done.

[Droog]

:))

[Droog]

This woman is some seriously DEEP denial.

[Namaste]

Haven't read it. I will when I have more time. Although I think a concise guide to Islam by a Muslim scholar might be more informative.

[Droog]

Do you mean scholars of Islam who are also Muslims, or simply scholars who study Islam?

If you mean scholars of Islam who are also Muslims, they would be believers and, by necessity, apologists.

*EDIT*

But if you're looking for scholars who are Muslims, would you consider former Muslims?

If so I recommend Ibn Warraq's Why I am Not a Muslim.

[scipio337]

Droog, can I prepurchase a copy?

[Loyal American]

Droog, can I prepurchase a copy?


LOL......I asked that awhile back, we have to wait!
Wonder if Droog will have to live in an undisclosed place
once his book comes out like Spencer?

Will he still be able to post here! :think:

[Droog]

When it's done.

The first two chapters were easy because I know the scripture pretty well.

Now I'm getting into history which takes a lot more research. Waiting for a rare Bat Ye'oir book to come in the mail so I can get started again, hoping there's some good documentation on the Muslim invasion and occupation of Spain. But my library has almost doubled in the past 6 months.

I should just pitch a tent outside the library of congress.

[Loyal American]

Droog, can I prepurchase a copy?


Wait, are you talking about the book Droog is writing? I sometimes get
confused! (LOL) :confused: :think:

[Droog]

LOL......I asked that awhile back, we have to wait!
Wonder if Droog will have to live in an undisclosed place
once his book comes out like Spencer?

Will he still be able to post here! :think:I will probably publish it under a pseudonym.

Though it probably won't be "Droog".

[wiley8425]

I will probably publish it under a pseudonym.

Though it probably won't be "Droog".

Careful. I can see the calls pouring in to the ACLU already...

[Loyal American]

I will probably publish it under a pseudonym.

Though it probably won't be "Droog".


I hope you can give us a heads-up so we can all
run out and buy it.

I promise I won't tell who you really are! :silenced:

Just so you don't get so famous that you forget about
posting to us! :cry:

[Radioflyer]

Numbers 31:31-40 (King James Version)
King James Version (KJV)


31: And Moses and Eleazar the priest did as the LORD commanded Moses.

32: And the booty, being the rest of the prey which the men of war had caught, was six hundred thousand and seventy thousand and five thousand sheep,

33: And threescore and twelve thousand beeves,

34: And threescore and one thousand asses,

35: And thirty and two thousand persons in all, of women that had not known man by lying with him.

36: And the half, which was the portion of them that went out to war, was in number three hundred thousand and seven and thirty thousand and five hundred sheep:

37: And the LORD'S tribute of the sheep was six hundred and threescore and fifteen.

38: And the beeves were thirty and six thousand; of which the LORD'S tribute was threescore and twelve.

39: And the asses were thirty thousand and five hundred; of which the LORD'S tribute was threescore and one.

40: And the persons were sixteen thousand; of which the LORD'S tribute was thirty and two persons.

THE Religion of peace ? Yes. A religion of justice too. Same reason Sodom and Gomorrah received justice.

[Droog]

HAHA I just checked my email and Amazon tells me my book has shipped.

Decline of Eastern Christianity Under Islam by Bat Ye'or.

Only waited like 4 months for this freaking book.

[Loyal American]

HAHA I just checked my email and Amazon tells me my book has shipped.

Decline of Eastern Christianity Under Islam by Bat Ye'or.

Only waited like 4 months for this freaking book.



Well, get busy reading and writing, we are all waiting!! ;)

[Droog]

I spoke of a brief survey of Islamic doctrine to get an idea of true Islam in another thread.

Here it is. Take ten to fifteen minutes to read it. This is how jihad is born. And again, this is a concise, brief survey. In reality it's actually much, much worse.

[Rhonda]

I spoke of a brief survey of Islamic doctrine to get an idea of true Islam in another thread.

Here it is. Take ten to fifteen minutes to read it. This is how jihad is born. And again, this is a concise, brief survey. In reality it's actually much, much worse.

Bump

[Droog]

buMp

[Rhonda]

I will probably publish it under a pseudonym.

Though it probably won't be "Droog".

Just make sure you let me know Droog. I can't wait! But I guess I must.

[thr3]

Interesting thread.
Bump.

[Rhonda]

Interesting thread.
Bump.

Droog is an interesting guy :D :flag:

[Droog]

You love me...you REALLY love me!!

For the time being, I have all the references and sources I need. So it's just a lot of reading and note-taking.

At least until I get through the 'jihad throughout history' chapter, which I'd say is half done. At which time I will begin writing on jihad's fifth column in the west, which will require several more books as well as countless internet articles. Then I'll get into shari'a law, which is the end result of Islam's final victory if we allow it. That chapter may be more simple.

****ing ugh. I hope it's worth it in the end--not that I make any money off of it, which was never the point. I don't expect a high demand for it and thus I don't expect to make money. I just hope that people who are not already totally converted to my message read it. I don't want to preach to the choir, although I still hope you'll buy it so that when you're spreading the message you'll be better informed. I feel like I'm really starting to come into my own among the more well-known Islamic scholars, though definitely nowhere near their prestige.

Maybe by the time I'm done. OK I'm drunk and I'm rambling. :))

[opsyscw]

Have the peace loving Islams put a price on your head for telling the truth yet Droog?

[Droog]

No not that I know of.

[wwrwtw]

Breaking News!!!! Fatwa Issued Against Droog!!!

[Droog]

Bring 'em on!

[KAOSKTRL]

I wanna fatwa

[wiley8425]

I wanna fatwa

I got your fatwa right here, pal. *makes crude gesture* :razz:

[wwrwtw]

I wanna fatwa
You have had one for a long time....didn;t they send you a copy?

[Rhonda]

You have had one for a long time....didn;t they send you a copy?


Its true, I got a copy of KAOSKTRLs fatwa, I'll forward it to him :cool:

[Loyal American]

LOL, what has this thread turned into the "Relax, let your hair down, don't be frustrated thread?"

[Droog]

Ye'or's book is just overflowing with knowledge. I will probably have to read it twice just to take it all in.

Wow.

[Loyal American]

Well, tell us something new....... :think:

[RadarCat]

You love me...you REALLY love me!!

For the time being, I have all the references and sources I need. So it's just a lot of reading and note-taking.

At least until I get through the 'jihad throughout history' chapter, which I'd say is half done. At which time I will begin writing on jihad's fifth column in the west, which will require several more books as well as countless internet articles. Then I'll get into shari'a law, which is the end result of Islam's final victory if we allow it. That chapter may be more simple.

****ing ugh. I hope it's worth it in the end--not that I make any money off of it, which was never the point. I don't expect a high demand for it and thus I don't expect to make money. I just hope that people who are not already totally converted to my message read it. I don't want to preach to the choir, although I still hope you'll buy it so that when you're spreading the message you'll be better informed. I feel like I'm really starting to come into my own among the more well-known Islamic scholars, though definitely nowhere near their prestige.

Maybe by the time I'm done. OK I'm drunk and I'm rambling. :))
Droog,

If you don't expect to make money from your book, perhaps you should consider turning it in as a Ph.D. thesis somewhere.

You definitely have the brains to teach at a good university somewhere.

RadarCat, B.A., M.Sc.

[Droog]

I don't know how long a typical Ph.D. thesis is, but I expect my book to be around 300-400 pages.

I appreciate the compliment though. The purpose of the book is to educate, and even if it only reaches a few dozen or hundred people, whatever, if there are that many who really read what it says and believe in it enough to pass it on with urgency, then that's a contribution to this war effort that I'll be satisfied with.

[jimmytheclaw]

I don't know how long a typical Ph.D. thesis is, but I expect my book to be around 300-400 pages.

I appreciate the compliment though. The purpose of the book is to educate, and even if it only reaches a few dozen or hundred people, whatever, if there are that many who really read what it says and believe in it enough to pass it on with urgency, then that's a contribution to this war effort that I'll be satisfied with.

will the author be listed as Droog the Mushrikun

[Droog]

I'll think of something creative.

Probably Ibn ("son of") something.

What's the Islamic words for ape?

Maybe I'll call myself a son of an ape just to **** them off. :))

[Loyal American]

I'll think of something creative.

Probably Ibn ("son of") something.

What's the Islamic words for ape?

Maybe I'll call myself a son of an ape just to **** them off. :))


How about something with "pork" in it if ya really want to
get their attention?

[rhetorician]

Hey, add "rabid pork-eating dingo." Question: I like your "concise guide." I've been trying to read the Koran for ages but don't have a lot of time for it and am no where near as far along in organizing my perceptions of it. Have you got a website with the same info. on it? Something that would help educate us "igner't" Christian-types? "Know thy enemy"?

[wiley8425]

Son of Apes. Indian name: Dances with pork bellies.

[wwrwtw]

My Droog file is now 41 pages long...:)

[Droog]

Hey, add "rabid pork-eating dingo." Question: I like your "concise guide." I've been trying to read the Koran for ages but don't have a lot of time for it and am no where near as far along in organizing my perceptions of it. Have you got a website with the same info. on it? Something that would help educate us "igner't" Christian-types? "Know thy enemy"?http://mindfilter.net/

KAOS' site is better:

http://www.kafirnation.com/portal/index.asp

If you're a Christian you'll really like Answering Islam:

http://www.answering-islam.org/

[rhetorician]

Thanks! :) :)

[rhetorician]

PS: can I cite your stuff when the issue comes up in my classroom?

[Droog]

Please do.

I just put this guide up on my website, after editing it slightly:

http://mindfilter.net/conciseguide.html

Knock 'em dead.

[BA-DA-BING!"]

Please do.

I just put this guide up on my website, after editing it slightly:

http://mindfilter.net/conciseguide.html

Knock 'em dead.



Awesome job Droog.

I really admire your tenacity on said subject.

I bet one day we will get to see you and hear you speak on Sean's show.

[Loyal American]

Wish he could be an advisor to the President!

[Droog]

Grass roots, Barbara.

Grass roots. ;)

[wiley8425]

Awesome job Droog.

I really admire your tenacity on said subject.

I bet one day we will get to see you and hear you speak on Sean's show.

If the board moderators are any indication, this isn't a subject Sean is going to touch any time soon.

[Droog]

If the board moderators are any indication, this isn't a subject Sean is going to touch any time soon.Like I said, it has to be grass roots. I'm not sure if I were Sean that I'd talk about it right now either. His lifestyle and his family are at stake.

OK so that's not very principled, but sometimes there's a difference between irrationality and courage. You need to know which battles to pick and when to fight them. If Sean speaks out about Islam in today's climate he's ruined.

Spreading the word lies squarely on the shoulders of people like us, people who don't have vultures flying over our heads looking to eat our carcasses if we slip up--the average joes. Sure we have the leaders, like Spencer and Trifkovic, Ye'or and Warraq. But right now their voices aren't taken seriously because they aren't marketable. That's a really messed up way of looking at the American political landscape, but I think it's also accurate.

A time will come when enough of us will be aware and involved that people like Sean can say something and have the backing of popular support. IOW he won't lose advertisers, and jihadist fronts like CAIR won't be able to seriously demand he be fired.

It's a long, uphill battle, but we have one big ally on our side: the jihadists themselves. As long as they keep killing peoples' eyes will continue to open and the climate becomes more acceptable to open, mainstream criticism of the Islamic religion and its responsibility for the violence committed by the jihadists.

[BA-DA-BING!"]

If the board moderators are any indication, this isn't a subject Sean is going to touch any time soon.

OK but don't you think Droog has a way of speaking the truth about islam that would not be viewed as hate speech by Sean's audience, advertiser's etc.?

Why do you think the majority in this country (once they would hear the truth about islam and its book the Qu'ran) would not support Sean?

I am concerned this grass roots effort will get off the ground when it is too late.

[wiley8425]

OK but don't you think Droog has a way of speaking the truth about islam that would not be viewed as hate speech by Sean's audience, advertiser's etc.?

Audience, maybe. Advertisers are a different story. If they think they're going to lose ratings, they're going to drop it like a hot potato. They're targetting everybody, alienating "Muslims", as well as anyone else who might perceive it as "hate speech" would go against their goal of generating revenue (in their eyes.)



Why do you think the majority in this country (once they would hear the truth about islam and its book the Qu'ran) would not support Sean?

I am concerned this grass roots effort will get off the ground when it is too late.

The majority in this country still accept whatever is fed to them from the MSM. Until the idea that Islam isn't about "Peace and Tolerance" is a popular one, anyone who speaks up about it faces the wrath of the ACLU/CAIR/and a flurry of other groups. If there was popular support for this idea, their powers would be limited a great deal. As it stands, anyone who criticizes Islam is either labeled a "racist" or a "bigot" by the ignorant masses and the Muslim apologists/collaberators.

Most people suffer from the "Political Correctness" and "all religions are equal but different" philosophy. But like Droog says, enough attacks happen, more people will open their eyes and see what's really going on. There will always be sheep, though.

Just look at all the posts on this board alone where any criticism of Islam is met with the word "racist," even though Muslims are not and have never been a race of people. That speaks for itself.

[BA-DA-BING!"]

His lifestyle and his family are at stake.


Huge problem right here. If people dare to publicly speak the truth about islam, then they are faced with family threats and the possibility of being fired. Not right.

This grass roots effort is moving way too slow for me Droog. The truth needs to be common public knowledge now, right now, before this political ideology makes its way any further into this country.

How can we speed up this grass roots effort on a more massive scale? Say for example, a documentary kind of like the idiot Michael Moore's documentary 9-11 except this documentary would be truthful.

Or do we have to wait for the next attack and then the next and then the next and then maybe this country will wake up?

No - this can't be the only way.

[Droog]

I actually think the race-baiters in these discussions have largely been silenced. There's too much of an effort being made to understand Islam to dismiss as bigotry or ignorance. Ignorance does not require this type of effort.

New posters will always come and go, but they will either be silenced by authoritative knowledge or they will accept the truth outright.

I think the climate was a lot more hostile for us a year ago or longer.

[BA-DA-BING!"]

Audience, maybe. Advertisers are a different story. If they think they're going to lose ratings, they're going to drop it like a hot potato. They're targetting everybody, alienating "Muslims", as well as anyone else who might perceive it as "hate speech" would go against their goal of generating revenue (in their eyes.)



The majority in this country still accept whatever is fed to them from the MSM. Until the idea that Islam isn't about "Peace and Tolerance" is a popular one, anyone who speaks up about it faces the wrath of the ACLU/CAIR/and a flurry of other groups. If there was popular support for this idea, their powers would be limited a great deal. As it stands, anyone who criticizes Islam is either labeled a "racist" or a "bigot" by the ignorant masses and the Muslim apologists/collaberators.

Most people suffer from the "Political Correctness" and "all religions are equal but different" philosophy. But like Droog says, enough attacks happen, more people will open their eyes and see what's really going on. There will always be sheep, though.

Just look at all the posts on this board alone where any criticism of Islam is met with the word "racist," even though Muslims are not and have never been a race of people. That speaks for itself.


You are absolutely right.

I just do not want to wait like a sitting dumb duck for the next attack(s) before this country wakes up. It angers me that speaking the truth somehow can be labeled as racist. That is not right.

And as far as the advertisers, how would they lose ratings? I bet the topic would get huge ratings especially when this so called "religion of peace" is exposed for what it truly is - "the religion of peace when everyone submits". Do you believe people would turn off their sets because the truth about islam, this political ideology, was finally unveiled?

I guess I do not understand how speaking the truth would cause any problems unless of course the truth ruins some well thought out plans of a very dangerous political ideology - islam.

Whatever happened to free speech especially if it is truthful?

[Droog]

Huge problem right here. If people dare to publicly speak the truth about islam, then they are faced with family threats and the possibility of being fired. Not right.

This grass roots effort is moving way too slow for me Droog. The truth needs to be common public knowledge now, right now, before this political ideology makes its way any further into this country.

How can we speed up this grass roots effort on a more massive scale? Say for example, a documentary kind of like the idiot Michael Moore's documentary 9-11 except this documentary would be truthful.

Or do we have to wait for the next attack and then the next and then the next and then maybe this country will wake up?

No - this can't be the only way.Speak to people you feel trust you, and open a dialogue. When I write the conclusion to my book, I am going to tell readers not to contact their representatives about what they read in the book. I'm going to tell them to tell their friends, family, and co-workers.

I think alot of people are angered by terrorism/jihad, but their PC-sensibilities get in their way. They think it's terrible but no different than what Christians have done through the centuries. Open the dialogue and explain to them that violence is not a part of Christianity, but it's an integral part of Islam.

Make sure you're familiar with the scripture, though. I have the ear of alot of co-workers and family and friends because I can whip out the scripture relavent to any issue affecting us regarding Islam today right off the top of my head. Everything the jihadists do is acceptable in Islam, and you need to be able to explain why. Explain why it's OK to cut off the heads of your captives--talk about the Banu Qurayza. That's just one example. Explain verse 5.51 to show why the people Zarqawi kills are not really Muslims.

Go to my archives and read about how martydom is not only allowed by Islam but a sacred honor. Read about how the writings of Bin Laden are wholly in-tune with Islam.

You can't just "know" that jihad is a core tenet of Islam, you have to be able to explain it, because peoples' first instincts are going to be to think you're a Christian extremist or a bigot. That takes a lot of effort, and IMO there are few issues as important to the future well-being of our nation.

[BA-DA-BING!"]

Speak to people you feel trust you, and open a dialogue. When I write the conclusion to my book, I am going to tell readers not to contact their representatives about what they read in the book. I'm going to tell them to tell their friends, family, and co-workers.

I think alot of people are angered by terrorism/jihad, but their PC-sensibilities get in their way. They think it's terrible but no different than what Christians have done through the centuries. Open the dialogue and explain to them that violence is not a part of Christianity, but it's an integral part of Islam.

Make sure you're familiar with the scripture, though. I have the ear of alot of co-workers and family and friends because I can whip out the scripture relavent to any issue affecting us regarding Islam today right off the top of my head. Everything the jihadists do is acceptable in Islam, and you need to be able to explain why. Explain why it's OK to cut off the heads of your captives--talk about the Banu Qurayza. That's just one example. Explain verse 5.51 to show why the people Zarqawi kills are not really Muslims.

Go to my archives and read about how martydom is not only allowed by Islam but a sacred honor. Read about how the writings of Bin Laden are wholly in-tune with Islam.

You can't just "know" that jihad is a core tenet of Islam, you have to be able to explain it, because peoples' first instincts are going to be to think you're a Christian extremist or a bigot. That takes a lot of effort, and IMO there are few issues as important to the future well-being of our nation.


I hear you Droog. I really do. And I will try my best. I am afraid working individually is not going to get the job done.

The process is so slow yet organizations like CAIR are making headway in this country at a record pace - using our own laws against us. It is almost like we have to speak in whispers.

All I am saying is there are extremely talented and smart people on this forum. It would be great if we could put our heads together and come up with ideas to push this grass roots effort forward.

[DedJester]

Indeed, all of the violent jihad verses appear while Muhammad was in Medina. Surah 9 (113th) arrives just before surah 5, and chapters 2 (91st), 3 (97th), 4 (100th), and 8 (95th), among the more disturbing chapters, all appear towards the end of Muhammad's life. Take note of the contrast:


[002.193 (http://www.ummah.net/what-is-islam/quran/noble/nobe002.htm#193)] And fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief and worshipping of others along with Allâh) and (all and every kind of) worship is for Allâh (alone).
[003.151-152 (http://www.ummah.net/what-is-islam/quran/noble/nobe003.htm#151)] We shall cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve, because they joined others in worship with Allâh, for which He had sent no authority; their abode will be the Fire, and evil is the abode of the unjust. And Allâh did indeed fulfil His Promise to you when you were killing them (your enemy) by His permission.
[004.101 (http://www.ummah.net/what-is-islam/quran/noble/nobe004.htm#101)] Surely the disbelievers are ever unto you open enemies.
[004.089 (http://www.ummah.net/what-is-islam/quran/noble/nobe004.htm#89)] They wish that you reject Faith, as they have rejected (Faith), and thus that you all become equal (like one another). So take not Auliyâ' (protectors or friends) from them, till they emigrate in the Way of Allâh (to Muhammad SAW). But if they turn back (from Islâm), take (hold) of them and kill them wherever you find them, and take neither Auliyâ' (protectors or friends) nor helpers from them.
[005.033-034 (http://www.ummah.net/what-is-islam/quran/noble/nobe005.htm#33)] The recompense of those who wage war against Allâh and His messenger and strive to make mischief in the land is only that they shall be killed or crucified or their hands and their feet be cut off on opposite sides, or be exiled from the land. That is their disgrace in this world, and a great torment is theirs in the hereafter. Except for those who (having fled away and then) came back (as Muslims) with repentence before they fall into your power; in that case, know that Allâh is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.
[005.051 (http://www.ummah.net/what-is-islam/quran/noble/nobe005.htm#51)] O you who believe! Take not the Jews and the Christians as Auliyâ' (friends, protectors, helpers), they are but Auliyâ' of each other. And if any amongst you takes them (as Auliyâ'), then surely, he is one of them. Verily, Allâh guides not those people who are Zâlimûn (unjust).
[005.060 (http://www.ummah.net/what-is-islam/quran/noble/nobe005.htm#60)] Say (O Muhammad SAW to the people of the Scripture): "Shall I inform you of something worse than that, regarding the recompense from Allâh: those (Jews) who incurred the Curse of Allâh and His Wrath, those of whom He transformed into monkeys and swines.
[008.012-013 (http://www.ummah.net/what-is-islam/quran/noble/nobe008.htm#12)] (Remember) when your Lord revealed to the angels, "Verily, I am with you, so keep firm those who have believed. I will cast terror into the hearts of those who have disbelieved, so strike off their heads and strike off all their fingertips and toes. This is because they defied and disobeyed Allâh and His Messenger. And whoever defies and disobeys Allâh and His Messenger, then verily, Allâh is severe in punishment.
[008.012-013 (http://www.ummah.net/what-is-islam/quran/noble/nobe008.htm#39)] And fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief and polytheism: i.e. worshipping others besides Allâh) and the religion (worship) will all be for Allâh Alone . But if they cease (worshipping others besides Allâh), then certainly, Allâh is All-Seer of what they do.
[008.022 (http://www.ummah.net/what-is-islam/quran/noble/nobe008.htm#22)] Verily! The worst of (moving) living creatures with Allâh are the deaf and the dumb, those who understand not (i.e. the disbelievers).
[009.005 (http://www.ummah.net/what-is-islam/quran/noble/nobe009.htm#5)] Then when the sacred months have past, kill the [i]Mushrikûn (idolators, polytheists, disbelievers in the Oneness of Allâh, pagans) wherever you find them, and capture them and besiege them, and lie in wait for them in every ambush. But if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practise regular charity, then open the way for them. Verily Allâh is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.
[009.014 (http://www.ummah.net/what-is-islam/quran/noble/nobe009.htm#14)] Fight them, Allâh will punish them by your hands and bring them to disgrace, and assist you against them and heal the hearts of a believing people.
[009.073 (http://www.ummah.net/what-is-islam/quran/noble/nobe009.htm#73)] O Prophet! Strive against the disbelievers and the hypocrites! Be harsh with them; and their abode is hell, and evil is the destination.
Thus the rare tolerant verses found in the Qur'an were all replaced, or abrogated, by the myriad, frequent violent, hateful verses revealed at later dates, and it is these later verses which Muslim scholars throughout history have taken to be the authority. Again, it is important to note that individual Muslims, by their own ability to reason, have the power to decide for themselves how to interpret Islamic doctrine. Many of them, particularly in the West, may not even be aware of abrogation, or recognize its importance. They may think that where the Qur'an contradicts itself, the Muslim is free to choose which idea to latch onto. The point is, as always, that what we in the West consider to be the "extreme" or "radical" interpretation is only extreme or radical in contrast with our own Western sense of morality; it is still a correct way of looking at it, and, with the example of Muhammad's life in mind, probably the most accurate. It is not extreme at all, not when taken in context with scripture.




This view has recently been reinforced in Iraq with Abu Musab al-Zarqawi calling for a "all-out war" on Shiite Muslims, Iraqi troops and the government(Foxnews.com).

[mekaniker]

The Sunnah: Muhammad's Example

The Qur'an, in several verses, teaches Muslims that Muhammad was essentially a perfect person, and that his example is a good one for those who wish to meet Allah in the Hereafter. Thus Muslims value the sunnah as nearly equal in religious importance to the Qur'an. A Muslim may not practice Islam without consulting both (see HERE (http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/)).

The Sunnah clarifies alot that may be confusing or vague about the Qur'an, and is essential when dictating shari'a law. A proper fatwa must cite both the Qur'an and the sunnah. Anyone who claims there is no violence in the Qur'an is not only a liar but is also intentionally ignoring the violence and debauchery of Muhammad's example that make the violence contained therein all the more worse. I will provide an example (the examples are far too numerous to bother with) that epitomizes the relationship between the Qur'an and the sunnah in the next post.

But essentially, the sunnah allows for every conceivable act of debauchery and what we consider today to be criminality, with the exception of cannibalism. Imagine every form of crime against humanity, from pedophilia to rape to mass murder: Muhammad is guilty by way of Islam's most authentic texts.

It is no surprise that many Western "Muslims" attempt to dismiss the sunnah as part of Islam (see HERE--our friend American Muslim is a member (http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/notislam/#submitters)), as if the Qur'an by itself were an example of love and tolerance. However, historically the sunnah has been part of Islam, and is a major factor in Islam's terrible history.


Excellent post. It makes what is going on in the middle east much more understandable.

I was wondering if you had some examples of debauchery from the Sunnah. (If I missed the post, please let me know of the number).

Is Rushdie's book "Satanic Verses" a good read?

[KAOSKTRL]

Unreadable he should be killed for writting such a bad book

[Droog]

I heard the book is actually terrible.

I cited specific examples in the online version of this guide.

http://mindfilter.net/conciseguide.html

Rape, pedophilia, assassination of dissenters and critics, mass murder, ethnic cleansing...all of it is acceptable because Muhammad did it.

[KAOSKTRL]

http://www.hannity.com/forum/showpost.php?p=786762&postcount=3

[Droog]

Did I forget the glossary? :whistle:

[KAOSKTRL]

I would do it myself if I could orginize
my thoughts in any meaningfull way.
Im to old for this game.

[Loyal American]

Nope, can't find a glossary any place! ;)

[jimmytheclaw]

Excellent post. It makes what is going on in the middle east much more understandable.

I was wondering if you had some examples of debauchery from the Sunnah. (If I missed the post, please let me know of the number).

Is Rushdie's book "Satanic Verses" a good read?


not really i never finished it. but after 9/11 i read a bunch of books and realised rushdie took the koranic verses called the satanic verses and satired them. wish i still had it i lost it back in 93.

[Droog]

bump

[Droog]

Mindfilter is down and I think I'm just gonna let it die, being that I barely do anything with it.

I'll move what was there to my free space at Comcast. For now here's the link to this guide:

http://home.comcast.net/~deep_kemical/mindfilter/conciseguide.html

[jimmytheclaw]

Mindfilter is down and I think I'm just gonna let it die, being that I barely do anything with it.

I'll move what was there to my free space at Comcast. For now here's the link to this guide:

http://home.comcast.net/~deep_kemical/mindfilter/conciseguide.html

the other two links worked fine

[Droog]

I love how my webhost puts "ACCOUNT FOR DOMAIN MINDFILTER.NET HAS BEEN SUSPENDED" in BIG FREAKING BOLD LETTERS, instead of something discreet like "page cannot be displayed" or something.

[Loyal American]

What, they cancelled you.....confused?

[Loyal American]

Why isn't Droog's new link working for me? I get this page can not be displayed.

[arrtee]

Wow! Excellent work, Droog! I just finished Spencer's book last night, and am now inspired to read more on the subject. I agree with you on your recommendations, and I think that the "War on Terror" is really a "War defending against Islamic Jihad" - of which terror is just one of their tactics.

What a horrible belief system - can't even call it a religion.

And it really is telling that people who write bad things about it, or speak against it, fear for their lives.

Wish the whole belief system had stayed where it belonged - in the 7th century.

Keep up the good work!!

[wwrwtw]

WELCOME to the forum arrtee! :)

[Loyal American]

Wow! Excellent work, Droog! I just finished Spencer's book last night, and am now inspired to read more on the subject. I agree with you on your recommendations, and I think that the "War on Terror" is really a "War defending against Islamic Jihad" - of which terror is just one of their tactics.

What a horrible belief system - can't even call it a religion.

And it really is telling that people who write bad things about it, or speak against it, fear for their lives.

Wish the whole belief system had stayed where it belonged - in the 7th century.

Keep up the good work!!


Well, WELCOME to Hannity's my friend! :hug:

[Loyal American]

Droog, got the links from the other thread, all is good. Got worried because I don't have everything I want into folders yet. THANK YOU!

[arrtee]

WELCOME to the forum arrtee! :)

Thanks!

[arrtee]

Well, WELCOME to Hannity's my friend! :hug:

Thanks! I've been lurking for about a month now, but I plan to participate more in the future... :cool:

[Droog]

Welcome to the Dar al-Harb, Arrtee. Thanks for the compliments.

[TonyMeltoni]

Robert Spencer got me beat.

He's a little bit more knowledgable than me ;), although I still think he is too political in his assessments of Islam, particularly with regards to those Muslims trying to reform Islam.

He encourages those people; I condemn them. Islam is not reformable. Reforming Islam is like reforming the Ku Klux Klan.

I've also read Spencer's book. It was an eye opener to say the least. I also agree that he's too political in his assessments. It was a good read though. I really enjoyed his debunking of the PC version of the Crusades as an act of aggression.

[jimmytheclaw]

I've also read Spencer's book. It was an eye opener to say the least. I also agree that he's too political in his assessments. It was a good read though. I really enjoyed his debunking of the PC version of the Crusades as an act of aggression.

i'm on chapter 4 or 5 most of the stuff in it ive read about on the web in the past 4 years. otherwise i think its good for someone as a beginner book on the subjects. i think my next book will be that one by bosom.

[TonyMeltoni]

i'm on chapter 4 or 5 most of the stuff in it ive read about on the web in the past 4 years. otherwise i think its good for someone as a beginner book on the subjects. i think my next book will be that one by bosom.

Yeah that's pretty much where I considered my level of knowledge at the beginner level when I started reading the book. It definately made me want to learn more about the subject. It was a wake up call for me.

[Droog]

Tony~

Just understand that people are not going to take you seriously because you read a book. Religious equality is so ingrained in our collective cultural consciousness that many people will think you're a sick bigot for even criticising Islam. You need to be fully armed with facts before you go speaking out about Islam.

That takes effort. No book by Spencer or Trifkovic or whoever is going to cover the entire scope of Islamic jurisprudence. It is vast and it is disturbing. A good 6 months of vigorous study and you'll be able to prove that virtually everything the jihadists do is justified by their scriptures, from rape to beheading prisoners, etc.

That takes a strong commitment but I believe the issue is important enough to learn about and teach. Our leaders, even if they know what we know, are never going to speak out openly about Islam until enough of us are willing to accept the truth. That job lies with people like you and me.

I hope you'll take this seriously and I, KAOS, and others will be here to help you with anything you need. But the best way to learn is to dive into the subject and try to prove us wrong.

That's what I did. The truth was too overwhelming, too obvious.

Good luck.

[arrtee]

I hope you'll take this seriously and I, KAOS, and others will be here to help you with anything you need. But the best way to learn is to dive into the subject and try to prove us wrong.

That's what I did. The truth was too overwhelming, too obvious.

Good luck.

Droog - that's what I'm interested in now - learning as much as I can about Islam. I gathered from reading these threads that either you or KAOS started off your studies to prove the critics wrong. Is that correct?

I had another question too, from today's news. It seems that not only are the Muslims as a whole on jihad against the West, but they have some serious internecine conflict as well between the Sunnis and Shi'ites. What is the cause of this conflict, and does it offer us hope for our struggle against Islamic Jihad?

[KAOSKTRL]

I started out to understand how Islam had been hijacked and twisted with specifics ,
I think Droog started out to prove me right or wrong one way or the other when I would shut up about what I found.

No unfortunaly the schizim does not includ any debate of what to do with infidels
That debate was settled at aqaba

[Droog]

The schizm between Sunni and Shi'ite has nothing to do with the fundamental practices of Islam. It's simply over who should be in charge in an Islamic state, and correct me if I'm wrong because I'm not 100% sure about that.

In Iraq, the difference is more fundamental today, because you have Shi'ites giving aid and comfort to Jews and Christians (ie. the coalition forces), and that, according to Qur'an 5.51, means they are no longer Muslims and gives the Sunnis the right to kill them.

But overall they are the same. Their difference is with each other, not on how they view us. We are all unclean descendants of apes and pigs.

[RadarCat]

Islam is the deadly enemy of the civilized countries of the continents of North America, South America, Europe and Australia.

It is my opinion that the counties of these four continents should immediately disallow any further immigration of Muslims to their countries.

RadarCat

[crux]

The schizm between Sunni and Shi'ite has nothing to do with the fundamental practices of Islam. It's simply over who should be in charge in an Islamic state, and correct me if I'm wrong because I'm not 100% sure about that.

In Iraq, the difference is more fundamental today, because you have Shi'ites giving aid and comfort to Jews and Christians (ie. the coalition forces), and that, according to Qur'an 5.51, means they are no longer Muslims and gives the Sunnis the right to kill them.

But overall they are the same. Their difference is with each other, not on how they view us. We are all unclean descendants of apes and pigs.

It has to do with with the blood line of Ali.

I thought this was death cult and you had it nailed down.

[crux]

Even I know that , must have been my experience sans bartender with an amazon gift certificate.

[crux]

The schizm between Sunni and Shi'ite has nothing to do with the fundamental practices of Islam. It's simply over who should be in charge in an Islamic state, and correct me if I'm wrong because I'm not 100% sure about that.

In Iraq, the difference is more fundamental today, because you have Shi'ites giving aid and comfort to Jews and Christians (ie. the coalition forces), and that, according to Qur'an 5.51, means they are no longer Muslims and gives the Sunnis the right to kill them.

But overall they are the same. Their difference is with each other, not on how they view us. We are all unclean descendants of apes and pigs.

Unbeleivable, you beter start from from scratch, you miss a fundamental pont. I was going to say you sound just like "them" but even "them" don't miss that point. Good luck homeboy

[Droog]

It has to do with with the blood line of Ali. Yes and that had to do with who should have been the rulers of the Islamic state, like I said.

I don't know what your problem is homeboy but if you have something to say then say it. If you think I'm wrong about Islam in general then prove it.

And you're going to have to do a little better than defining the differences between Shi'ite and Sunni, as if it matters in the overall context; as if it changes what's written in the Qur'an or changes the life of Muhammad the humanitarian that all Muslims are required to emulate.

Is their something you have to say, or are you just being an *******?

[Droog]

As I bump this up I want to make a brief mockery out of Crux's unprovoked, three-post hissy fit yesterday over the fact that I wasn't sure of the difference between Sunni and Shi'ite Islam. I said:The schizm between Sunni and Shi'ite has nothing to do with the fundamental practices of Islam. It's simply over who should be in charge in an Islamic state, and correct me if I'm wrong because I'm not 100% sure about that.Not only did I not assert that I knew what I was talking about, but without getting into specific details over which sect thought which bloodline was the rightful heir to the caliphate (which hasn't existed for nearly 100 years, BTW), my statement was correct.

Shi'a is short for Shi'áte Ali, a follower of Ali ibn Abu Talib, the prophet Muhammad's cousin, his son-in-law, and the father of Muhammad's only descendants. Shi'a Muslims believe that Ali should have followed Muhammad as the direct successor and leader of the Muslims. Sunni Muslims believe that Abu Bakr, the first caliph to hold power after Muhammad, held his office legitimately.

A fundamental argument that I make is, I do not comment or pass judgement on individual Muslims. Their actions mean nothing to me without the context of their scriptures. There is no difference between a Shi'a Qur'an and a Sunni Qur'an. In fact there is only one Qur'an. There are not Shi'a traditions of the prophet (sunnah), nor are their Sunni prophetic traditions. There is only one sunnah. Fundamentally, the Qur'an and the sunnah are all there is to Islam. All forms of Islamic jurisprudence are taken from these two sources.

So pardon me if I could give a rat's ass about the differences between Shi'a and Sunni Muslims; I cared so much that I've never bothered to take the 30 seconds it took me to look it up before some buffoon tried to prove his intellectual superiority by mocking me for a statement that was true anyway.

I study the Qur'an and the sunnah, and none of the 14 volumes of Islamic scripture I own were purchased from Amazon.

I did happen to buy a few dozen history books from there over the past year, though I never thought I'd actually be mocked for bothering to educate myself.

And here I thought only liberals didn't read. Good stuff, Crux. Proud of ya.

[RadarCat]

The alternative is either kill them all or keep them out of our civilization and cut them off economically and politically like we did the Soviets until they realize that Islam is killing them and they concentrate their minds on something that will benefit them and the rest of civilization.

You notice I say "civilization". I mean non-Muslim civilization. The dar al-Harb. In this conflict we have to view ourselves as a civilization, not individual nations, because ultimately that is how Islam sees us. We as Americans are targetted, but the ultimate goal is the complete elimination of the dar al-Harb.

Something has to happen politically to convince China and Russia and France and the whole world to stop dealing with them. That will probably mean inventing a new method of producing energy that doesn't involve oil.

It's going to take a massive effort on the part of non-Muslim nations. We could halt immigration and travel from those countries, but if others don't cooperate, not only will Islam infest and kill whatever culture it implants itself in, but Islamic nations like Iran will soon have nukes and the ability to deliver them, and France is a nuclear armed nation being overwhelmed by exploding Muslim birthrates and birthrates of the indigionous French population that is less than the death rate.

These are all my own solutions, but for the time being the best thing to do is inform as many people as possible so the discussion expands from just a few people on a message board to the talking heads discussing it on nationally-televised programs like O'Reilly and HnC. We'll find a solution when we're all aware.

Let's start there.

Read this post:

http://hannity.com/forum/showthread.php?t=16302
Droog,

I hope you get a chance to personally instruct politicians, such as Colorado Congressman Tom Tancredo and Massachusetts Governor Mitt Romney on the evils of Islam and how the countries of the world must deal with it.

Maybe you could send them some emails . . .

In fact, I think our President, Vice President and especially our Secretary of State need your superior knowledge.

RadarCat

[Droog]

Politicians will recieve this knowledge when the political climate in America allows them to. Do you really think Bush thinks Islam is a religion of peace? Do you think that of all the conservatives he has advising him--and granted, not all of his advisors are conservative--not a single one of them has pointed out to him that the terrorists are the real Muslims?

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure that out.

But the average American--average Westerner, really--is a complete dolt. They don't read. They don't study. They watch reality TV, which is the furthest thing from reality as you can get--probably why they can't get enough of it. If Bush spoke out about Islam he'd be finished. The scandal would destroy his presidency, and it's not even a year into the second term.

The only thing I can do is educate the average American--those willing to listen--and encourage them to put forth the effort to become at least a minimal authority on the subject and then spread that knowledge to others. I think that's happening, albeit slowly. People are starting to wake up.

But the majority of Americans have cultural and religious equality embedded into their own cultural identity. Moral and cultural relativism is an old habit that dies hard. But if we're able to continue to erode it, as it erodes away politicians will realize that it's more politically expediant to condemn Islam than it is to protect it.

Then we will have won.

[Droog]

And again I thank you for your compliments and encouragement. More people are starting to listen and that's extremely heartening.

[Droog]

Crux...?

[crux]

Crux...?

I have heard the Koran cannot be interpreted from you and others and there is no moderate Muslims. The split in Shia and Sunni among other splits shows that there is intepratation. I have had a long career in the military and security industry the Marines just one stint. I have been in Africa, ME and SE Asia I have seen first hand that there is intpertation of the Koran and it runs the spectrum. Wether you call those people Muslims or not scripturally or not doesn't matter to them or me.

There are Muslims who have risked their lives for this country. 0
You fall into the academic trap by reading and not seeing your subject matter. You should take some trips to some of the muslim countries in this world and see if any of them can even read and all the illeterate do is interpetI wish you luck on your book but to say that the Koran can only be read one way isn't accurate. What I have seen mostly from you is the Sunni fundamentalist take which is only part of it. I take issue you sell it as the whole

But religion is not my game, you want to read a book and tell me what I have seen with my own eyes isn't true then so be it.

BTW: I tried taking a more civil approach with you and tried to breach the subject 4 or 5 times , but you responding by snidely showing me picture of the twin towers exploding. I was on a plane 2 weeks later because of that and am now retired as a result of that plane ride. I don't need you to tell me what this war is about

[Droog]

The Shi'a and Sunni split, as I just showed you, has nothing to do with the Qur'an or the sunnah. It changes nothing about how either of them are "interpreted". The split happened because some Muslims thought Ali was the rightful successor to the Islamic state after Muhammad died, and the Sunnis though Abu Bakr was the rightful successor.

Being that the split took place after the prophet died, that means the Qur'an was completed. There is nothing in the Qur'an about who the Caliphate belonged to after Muhammad died.

And, as I've shown by this topic, there are different ways Muslims can choose to interpret the texts, but the manner in which Muhammad intended Islam to be followed--the Islam he ruled by--is as clear as day. It's well documented, well constructed. I don't care how many Muslims you've met--it changes nothing about what's in the text. It does nothing to change the fact that the terrorists are the truly devout.

And good people who happen to be Muslims are finding their faith all the time. A couple of them blew themselves up on the London subway a few months ago. One of them was a schoolteacher. Nobody could believe they would do such a thing.

Watch your back.

[crux]

The Shi'a and Sunni split, as I just showed you, has nothing to do with the Qur'an or the sunnah. It changes nothing about how either of them are "interpreted". The split happened because some Muslims thought Ali was the rightful successor to the Islamic state after Muhammad died, and the Sunnis though Abu Bakr was the rightful successor.

Being that the split took place after the prophet died, that means the Qur'an was completed. There is nothing in the Qur'an about who the Caliphate belonged to after Muhammad died.

And, as I've shown by this topic, there are different ways Muslims can choose to interpret the texts, but the manner in which Muhammad intended Islam to be followed--the Islam he ruled by--is as clear as day. It's well documented, well constructed. I don't care how many Muslims you've met--it changes nothing about what's in the text. It does nothing to change the fact that the terrorists are the truly devout.

And good people who happen to be Muslims are finding their faith all the time. A couple of them blew themselves up on the London subway a few months ago. One of them was a schoolteacher. Nobody could believe they would do such a thing.

Watch your back.

I have had my six covered before by the same members of the death cult. I'll take it under advisement.

I leave your to your academics

[Droog]

And by the way:

I respect and honor and thank you for your service.

That said, this is a debate forum. If you don't want people telling you what this war is about, stay away from it. Just because you served doesn't make you an authority on social science or geo-politics.

It was not my intent for the discourse between us to take this direction.

[Droog]

I have had my six covered before by the same members of the death cult. I'll take it under advisement. Fortunately for you one of them was not a sargeant named Akhbar.

[crux]

Fortunately for you one of them was not a sargeant named Akhbar.

And forunately for you , most them didn't believe the same intepration you are spilling. There are many other 9/11's that didn't happen because of good muslims that saved buildings and terrorist attacks. To you all their all bad even the ones who have given info and action that have saved this country more 9/11's. I understand, I am clear on your view. You sound just like the ones you criticize

[Loyal American]

Sloooooooow down, please!

[Loyal American]

You both are right and seeing the others views won't make yours weaker or
more right. I can't stand to see you fighting when both just have a desire to education and make things better. Try to find a common ground with all this!

:think: :think: :think: :think: :think: :think:

[Droog]

And forunately for you , most them didn't believe the same intepration you are spilling. There are many other 9/11's that didn't happen because of good muslims that saved buildings and terrorist attacks. To you all their all bad even the ones who have given info and action that have saved this country more 9/11's. I understand, I am clear on your view. You sound just like the ones you criticizeSo if a Klan member stopped other Klan members from blowing up a black church, that means that some Klan members are good people, even if they still subscribe to an ideology of hate and murder?

You're viewing Islam based on the actions of individuals. Whether you realize it or not, that's the same as the people who criticize Islam based solely on the actions of terrorists. Individuals mean nothing. It's been proven that hate and murder--jihad--are at Islam's core. Nothing any Muslim does can ever change that.

[crux]

So if a Klan member stopped other Klan members from blowing up a black church, that means that some Klan members are good people, even if they still subscribe to an ideology of hate and murder?

You're viewing Islam based on the actions of individuals. Whether you realize it or not, that's the same as the people who criticize Islam based solely on the actions of terrorists. Individuals mean nothing. It's been proven that hate and murder--jihad--are at Islam's core. Nothing any Muslim does can ever change that.

And what you are doing is the same as terrorist actions represent the whole population. As in strict interpration is representative of the whole belief spectrum of muslims We aren't talking about the KKK or Nazism although me and you have both thrown around the anaology

Individuals mean everything, I guess that's where we differ. You rubbed me the wrong way with the twin towers picture, but I don't dislike or even disagree with you wholesale on your points. I just think the brush you sweep is broad. I don't want to fight with you but I think you walk a fine line of justifying your war scripturally just like the Islamic scholars do. They are fighting a holy war, I am not.

I'll leave it there, I am interested in what you write but I think you walk very close to becoming those we fight

[Droog]

And what you are doing is the same as terrorist actions represent the whole population.Absolutely not. My analysis of Islam has nothing to do with terrorists, except for the fact that terrorists who are Muslims are trying to kill me using their faith as a reason for it. That fact in turn spurned me to decide whether they were twisting their religion around to suit other purposes, or are they waging jihad as a true tenet of the faith as they say it is. What you are reading from me is the result of over a year's worth of study. If you've read the opening post you see that jihad is a core tenet of the faith that cannot be ignored, nor, if you read the text, is it open to any interpretation. The terrorists aren't mere terrorists: they're Muslims obeying Allah's order to wage jihad until His Word and Religion reign supreme. Don't blame me for coming to that conclusion, blame Muhammad. This is his religion and this is how he practiced it. If it weren't for the sunnah, which is basically a biography of his life, and if it were not for the fact that God in the Qur'an says he was an unerring individual and a beautiful example to follow for Muslims who hope to spend eternity in paradise, your view of Islam and the views of Muslims who do not believe in jihad would hold more value. As it turns out, Muhammad was a man who in modern times would be considered a war criminal of the worst order. This a man who Muslims hold as a model for all mankind for all time.

The individuals mean nothing. Otherwise I'd have every right to condemn Islam based solely on the actions of the terrorists, and Christians would be accountable for their crimes even though there is nothing in Christian scripture that quantifies them. Only the texts matter. Otherwise anyone can claim they have a right to murder in the name of god and nobody would question whether or not that person has the right. Why can we condemn those who say god teaches them to hate but we're supposed to support those who say god teaches them to love, without looking at what GOD actually has to say about it? Shouldn't God's opinion be the one that matters? Where is the scripture that teaches Muslims to love? I can quote verse after verse that teaches them to hate.

This is why I give no credit to peaceful Muslims any more than I'd give credit to a Nazi that doesn't hate Jews. They still subscribe to a hateful ideology with a long, cruel and established history, and that makes them either totally ignorant of their own faith or two-faced liars. We cannot hope for peaceful co-existance between Islam and the rest of the world, because historically such existance has NEVER manifested. The jihad you see today is the same jihad that began 1400 years ago, it has never ceased or paused, nor will it ever. It is part of Islam's historical mainstream. Wherever Islam has clashed with other cultures, there has been murder, bloodshed, and slavery.

[crux]

What you are reading from me is over 25 years of counterterrorism and 10 to 15 in muslim countries If you want to fight the war on their definition of their battle and battle lines go ahead. I aprecciate the brush. But wether the individual means anything to you or Islam isn't clear from your posts. I assume you and Islam both don't
We are talking past each other. I know you do good work with your research, keep the good work up. When the holy war starts... call us

[Droog]

I'm calling you now. The holy war started 1400 years ago. The scriptures would mean alot less if there weren't one thousand four hundred years of history to go with it.

Islam is a religion created by a morally-bankrupt 7th century bedouin for morally-bankrupt 7th century bedouins. It has no value in modern post-enlightenment civilization, and in fact is polar opposite to the concept of "civilization" in the first place.

This is why most people in Muslim lands still live and act like morally bankrupt 7th century bedouins. Any sense of modernity was either given to them, as in their oil technology and thus oil wealth, or stolen by them, as in their concepts of mathematics and philosophy, never conceived by them but taken credit by them.

[crux]

I'm calling you now. The holy war started 1400 years ago. The scriptures would mean alot less if there weren't one thousand four hundred years of history to go with it.

Islam is a religion created by a morally-bankrupt 7th century bedouin for morally-bankrupt 7th century bedouins. It has no value in modern post-enlightenment civilization, and in fact is polar opposite to the concept of "civilization" in the first place.

This is why most people in Muslim lands still live and act like morally bankrupt 7th century bedouins. Any sense of modernity was either given to them, as in their oil technology and thus oil wealth, or stolen by them, as in their concepts of mathematics and philosophy, never conceived by them but taken credit by them.

That is scirpture, no it's society and we already acting on it

[crux]

Give me the scripture part, since it is your bible

[Droog]

It's not my Bible.

I'm not Christian.

Incidentally, have you been drinking?

Your last 2 posts were completely incoherent.

[jimmytheclaw]

I'm calling you now. The holy war started 1400 years ago. The scriptures would mean alot less if there weren't one thousand four hundred years of history to go with it.

Islam is a religion created by a morally-bankrupt 7th century bedouin for morally-bankrupt 7th century bedouins. It has no value in modern post-enlightenment civilization, and in fact is polar opposite to the concept of "civilization" in the first place.

This is why most people in Muslim lands still live and act like morally bankrupt 7th century bedouins. Any sense of modernity was either given to them, as in their oil technology and thus oil wealth, or stolen by them, as in their concepts of mathematics and philosophy, never conceived by them but taken credit by them.

That is scirpture, no it's society and we already acting on it

i think you misunderstood droog he was referring to islamic scripture. all of bin ladens fatwas against the west that ive read were all based on islamic scripture and the traditions of his prophet mohammed. i do however agree with you that there is a large segment of the mohammedan world that are non-violent and pro-western however they dont seem to have ant basis scripturally for their beliefs. a good example is on sharia and how its practised read this for an example on sharia http://frontpagemagazine.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=19670 this is an interesting debate you and droog have going (been there vs read about it) keep it up so far you both have good points.

[BA-DA-BING!"]

So if a Klan member stopped other Klan members from blowing up a black church, that means that some Klan members are good people, even if they still subscribe to an ideology of hate and murder?

You're viewing Islam based on the actions of individuals. Whether you realize it or not, that's the same as the people who criticize Islam based solely on the actions of terrorists. Individuals mean nothing. It's been proven that hate and murder--jihad--are at Islam's core. Nothing any Muslim does can ever change that.


Great, great analogy Droog. You drive the point home. An excellent example.

[Droog]

The scriptural reason for the backwardness of Muslim society is the Qur'anic mandate that there is no authority higher than Allah's and no example better than Muhammad's.

This is why a cleric in Saudi Arabia issued a fatwa claiming the Earth is flat because the Qur'an says it's flat, and that anyone who says otherwise doesn't believe in God--ie is an apostate, who are put to death in many Islamic nations as per Muhammad's command that anyone who changes his Islamic religion must be killed.

Everything a Muslim needs to survive is found in the Qur'an and the sunnah. If they are true of faith, Allah will provide for them and help them to be victorious over the disbelievers.

That's what the scripture says. That's why they're still backwards and useless.

[rhetorician]

The scriptural reason for the backwardness of Muslim society is the Qur'anic mandate that there is no authority higher than Allah's and no example better than Muhammad's.

This is why a cleric in Saudi Arabia issued a fatwa claiming the Earth is flat because the Qur'an says it's flat, and that anyone who says otherwise doesn't believe in God--ie is an apostate, who are put to death in many Islamic nations as per Muhammad's command that anyone who changes his Islamic religion must be killed.

Everything a Muslim needs to survive is found in the Qur'an and the sunnah. If they are true of faith, Allah will provide for them and help them to be victorious over the disbelievers.

That's what the scripture says. That's why they're still backwards and useless.

My husband worked in Saudia Arabia and Egypt for two years and had to use their people for common labor. He says it drove him crazy because they do things like deliberately make a wall crooked--to try to get it straight is to try to be like Allah, which is a major sin.

[Droog]

I forgot to mention the fatwa I mentioned was issued in 1993.

[The Bos'un]

Droog, thank you for the guide. Man, has this forum been an eye opening education.

[The Bos'un]

By the way, I have not been able to open the strand, Terror can not be Islamic I keep getting the error that the page cannot be displayed. I seem to have no problem with any other strand, thread, or website, only American Muslim's strand, Terror can not be Islamic. Is anyone else having a problem and is there a work around for it?

[arrtee]

By the way, I have not been able to open the strand, Terror can not be Islamic I keep getting the error that the page cannot be displayed. I seem to have no problem with any other strand, thread, or website, only American Muslim's strand, Terror can not be Islamic. Is anyone else having a problem and is there a work around for it?

I was just able to get into that thread, so I don't know why you can't...

http://www.hannity.com/forum/showthread.php?t=23067

[rhetorician]

By the way, I have not been able to open the strand, Terror can not be Islamic I keep getting the error that the page cannot be displayed. I seem to have no problem with any other strand, thread, or website, only American Muslim's strand, Terror can not be Islamic. Is anyone else having a problem and is there a work around for it?

Yeah, I've got the same problem.

[Droog]

I can't believe people are still arguing with that fraud.

Notice how her only contribution to this thread was to quote OT verse in the Bible?

One trick pony...

[rhetorician]

I was just able to get into that thread, so I don't know why you can't...

http://www.hannity.com/forum/showthread.php?t=23067

Got the exact same "Page Cannot Be Displayed" even when clicking on your inserted url.

[Loyal American]

Bos, it opens for me too, have you been blocked from the thread?

[rhetorician]

Bos, it opens for me too, have you been blocked from the thread?

I don't know. How would I find out if I've been blocked? Have I said something that deserved to be blocked? Help!

[rhetorician]

Please tell me I'm not the idiot you're talking about. My insecurities are showing--insufficiently developed ego-base? Mom dropped me on my head once too often? Budcar's contagious?

[wwrwtw]

If Bos is on threaded mode instead of linear mode he may not be able to open the thread as it is so long

[Loyal American]

It is working for me! Maybe we need to start a part "II"

[rhetorician]

[QUOTE=crux]

i think you misunderstood droog he was referring to islamic scripture. all of bin ladens fatwas against the west that ive read were all based on islamic scripture and the traditions of his prophet mohammed. i do however agree with you that there is a large segment of the mohammedan world that are non-violent and pro-western however they dont seem to have ant basis scripturally for their beliefs. a good example is on sharia and how its practised read this for an example on sharia http://frontpagemagazine.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=19670 this is an interesting debate you and droog have going (been there vs read about it) keep it up so far you both have good points.

The main problem I have with Joe Muslim Average guys is that they is not permitted to challenge his imams--if the imam says slice your throat, and they don't, they get whacked instead and they're promised eternal hellfire and damnation, right along with you. How can you break through that kind of superstitious mind-numbing "obey or else" dogma?

[Droog]

You can't. It's the Word of God.

You break through it by convincing them being a Muslim is a stupid idea.

[rhetorician]

I was just able to get into that thread, so I don't know why you can't...

http://www.hannity.com/forum/showthread.php?t=23067

It worked. I went to Display Mode and shifted to linear--in like a breeze.

[rhetorician]

You can't. It's the Word of God.

You break through it by convincing them being a Muslim is a stupid idea.

Yeah--guarenteed to get them fried by the God of Abraham!

[Loyal American]

You can't. It's the Word of God.

You break through it by convincing them being a Muslim is a stupid idea.


This is good advise Droog. The best place to start, IMO, is with Muhammad. They need to see who he really was first.

[The Bos'un]

I got in when I switched to linear display. How come it did not work on threat and hybrid modes? I was blocked from day one, but, may have gotten in on linear before. I cannot remember. This has been a real eyeopener for me and I suffer from information overload every so often. So much to learn here. To all of you who responded, thank you. To those of you who were going to respond, thanks.

Hope I never trip over my feet hard enought to get banned from anything. Try to be as diplomatic as possible, even when dealing with dyed in the wool appeasers and apologists and liberal tolerance kumby ya "ists."

[AbeLinkin]

Excellent. This thread has been bookmarked...I take it Droog told you exactly what you wanted to hear.

[republicanprincess]

I take it Droog told you exactly what you wanted to hear.

The truth is generally considered a good thing to hear, Abe.

[tulsatech]

Please do.

I just put this guide up on my website, after editing it slightly:

http://mindfilter.net/conciseguide.html

Knock 'em dead.When I click on your link it says "Site has been suspended". What's up with that?

[Critical Bill]

When I click on your link it says "Site has been suspended". What's up with that?Try:
http://home.comcast.net/~deep_kemical/mindfilter/conciseguide.html

[Droog]

I take it Droog told you exactly what you wanted to hear.If it's not the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, prove it.

Otherwise be gone. Your snide, insignificant comments are boring.

[Droog]

Incidentally, anyone interested in where I draw my conclusions on Islam from, this is a list of all the books on Islam or related to Islam that currently sit on my bookshelf:

First, the scripture:


Holy Qur'an; Translated by Muhammad Taqi-ud-Din Al-Hilali; Muhammad Muhsin Khan
Sahih Muslim (4 volumes)
Tafsir Ibn Kathir (first 8 out of the 10 volumes)
Sirat Rasul Allah; Ibn Ishaq
The rest:

Blight of Asia; George Horton
Clash of Civilizations; Samuel Huntington
Concise History of the Crusades; Thomas F Madden
The Crusades Through Arab Eyes; Amin Maalouf
The Decline of Eastern Christianity Under Islam; Bat Ye'or
Dictionary of Islam; T.S. Hughes
A History of Christianity; Paul Johnson
A History of Israel; Howard Zachar
Islam and Dhimmitude: Where Civilizations Collide; Bat Ye'or
The Middle East; Bernard Lewis
Muhammad; Maxime Rodinson
Murders on the Nile; J Bowyers Bell
The Myth of Islamic Tolerance; Edited by Robert Spencer;
Onward Muslim Soldiers; Robert Spencer
Oxford History of India; V.A. Smith
The Quest for the Historical Muhammad; Edited by Ibn Warraq
Resource Wars; Michael T Klare
The Sword of the Prophet; Srdja Trifkovik
Why I am Not a Muslim; Ibn Warraq

[Droog]

Not a bad way to spend several hundred dollars. ;)

[Loyal American]

Droog, in all those books did you run into any thing new on Muhammad and Aisha......I mean anything we haven't used a hundred times in the BIG thread?
I am doing a little search on that right now.

[Loyal American]

Something on how old she was when they married (besides the Hadith)?

[Droog]

The hadith and sira are the only sources of Aisha's marriage to Muhammad.

They are the only sources on the origins of Islam and Muhammad's life and times. Rodinson's book goes into it but, again, his book is based entirely on the sunnah--mostly Sirat Rasul Allah.

[AbeLinkin]

When I click on your link it says "Site has been suspended". What's up with that?Perhaps the ISP pulled down Steve Curtin's site because of the hate posted there. Or perhaps he couldn't afford the 5 bucks a month hosting fee.

[arrtee]

Not a bad way to spend several hundred dollars. ;)

Droog - thanks for the list of books...

[Droog]

Perhaps the ISP pulled down Steve Curtin's site because of the hate posted there. Or perhaps he couldn't afford the 5 bucks a month hosting fee.Once again, *********, put up or shut up. Prove what I wrote is hateful, which would mean it has to be untrue, or be quiet.

[Droog]

Punk-ass...

[Charliemike]

Al-Jihâd (holy fighting) in Allâh’s Cause (with full force of numbers and weaponry) is given the utmost importance in Islam and is one of its pillars (on which it stands). By Jihâd Islam is established, Allâh’s Word is made superior (His Word being Lâ ilaha illallâh which means none has the right to be worshipped but Allâh), and His religion (Islam) is propagated. By abandoning Jihâd (may Allâh protect us from that) Islam is destroyed and the Muslims fall into an inferior position; their honor is lost, their lands are stolen, their rule and authority vanish. Jihâd is an obligatory duty in Islam on every Muslim, and he who tries to escape from this duty, or does not in his innermost heart wish to fulfill this duty, dies with one of the qualities of a hypocrite.


There you go again Droog telling us what they believe and what it says in the book of Evil they Worship. Go to your Room!...LOL

[Droog]

Yes I didn't know that truth is hate speech. I need to be put over someone's knee.

Preferably a petite female from the Gulf Coast. ;)

[BA-DA-BING!"]

Once again, *********, put up or shut up. Prove what I wrote is hateful, which would mean it has to be untrue, or be quiet.

Droog, did you grow up in Northern Jersey? My spouse uses that term all the time.

[RadarCat]

The scriptural reason for the backwardness of Muslim society is the Qur'anic mandate that there is no authority higher than Allah's and no example better than Muhammad's.

This is why a cleric in Saudi Arabia issued a fatwa claiming the Earth is flat because the Qur'an says it's flat, and that anyone who says otherwise doesn't believe in God--ie is an apostate, who are put to death in many Islamic nations as per Muhammad's command that anyone who changes his Islamic religion must be killed.

Everything a Muslim needs to survive is found in the Qur'an and the sunnah. If they are true of faith, Allah will provide for them and help them to be victorious over the disbelievers.

That's what the scripture says. That's why they're still backwards and useless.
That medieval cleric in Saudi Arabia who issued a fatwa claiming the Earth is flat is going to get the surprise of his ignorant backward life if Iran succeeds in manufacturing and testing their Shahab 4 missile for supposedly launching space satellites.

According to a U.S. National Intelligence Estimate, Iran could choose to develop space launch vehicles as a technical base for intermediate and intercontinental-range missiles, "without risking the potential political and economic costs of a long-range missile test."

The National Council of Resistance of Iran (NCRI), a consortium of Iranian opposition groups, claims that Iran has already successfully tested the Shahab 4. This would have occurred in May and August 2002 at a missile firing range south of Semnan. According to the NCRI, Iran assembles the Shahab 4 at the Hemat Industrial complex, a plant that belongs to the Revolutionary Guard Corps and that is located on the Damavand Tehran Highway. The NCRI asserts that the missile has a range of up to 2,000 km and can carry a 1,500 kg warhead.

I wonder how this retarded pinhead cleric explains satellite television?

What a typical tiny useless Islamic mind.

RadarCat

[Charliemike]

I have always been amazed.

Lets see, you point out what it says in the Quran and the beliefs taught By the Mullahs and you are a Bigot. Point out that Islam has always conquered by the Sword and you are culturally insensitive. Complain about Islam in the Schools and you are attacked. Suggest that we kick their butts and protect ourselves and they will ask why you can’t talk to them first. Defend yourself from there attack and you are a murderer.



On the other hand Place a Christian religious symbol in Urine and you are an artist. Attack Christians at every turn and you are educated. Believe that you came from a pool of soup and you are knowledgeable. Demand the removal of every mention of the Judah Christian God and you are a hero.



In the end many will hear. Depart from me you worker of inequity I never knew you.

[rhetorician]

I have always been amazed.

Lets see, you point out what it says in the Quran and the beliefs taught By the Mullahs and you are a Bigot. Point out that Islam has always conquered by the Sword and you are culturally insensitive. Complain about Islam in the Schools and you are attacked. Suggest that we kick their butts and protect ourselves and they will ask why you can’t talk to them first. Defend yourself from there attack and you are a murderer.



On the other hand Place a Christian religious symbol in Urine and you are an artist. Attack Christians at every turn and you are educated. Believe that you came from a pool of soup and you are knowledgeable. Demand the removal of every mention of the Judah Christian God and you are a hero.



In the end many will hear. Depart from me you worker of inequity I never knew you.

:clap: You said it, brother mine. Sometimes, I sure get tired of getting kicked around because I believe in God and try to be kind, loving, generous, wise, and as much like Christ as I can be. I know I don't succeed, but I sure don't feel like I deserve some of the boot-stomping I have to take, either. Thanks for the defense! :hug:

[rhetorician]

That medieval cleric in Saudi Arabia who issued a fatwa claiming the Earth is flat is going to get the surprise of his ignorant backward life if Iran succeeds in manufacturing and testing their Shahab 4 missile for supposedly launching space satellites.

According to a U.S. National Intelligence Estimate, Iran could choose to develop space launch vehicles as a technical base for intermediate and intercontinental-range missiles, "without risking the potential political and economic costs of a long-range missile test."

The National Council of Resistance of Iran (NCRI), a consortium of Iranian opposition groups, claims that Iran has already successfully tested the Shahab 4. This would have occurred in May and August 2002 at a missile firing range south of Semnan. According to the NCRI, Iran assembles the Shahab 4 at the Hemat Industrial complex, a plant that belongs to the Revolutionary Guard Corps and that is located on the Damavand Tehran Highway. The NCRI asserts that the missile has a range of up to 2,000 km and can carry a 1,500 kg warhead.

I wonder how this retarded pinhead cleric explains satellite television?

What a typical tiny useless Islamic mind.

RadarCat

Yeah! :clap: and I'm sure getting ready to stomp some other pinheads in Tehran.

[rhetorician]

Yes I didn't know that truth is hate speech. I need to be put over someone's knee.

Preferably a petite female from the Gulf Coast. ;)

Sorry, no can do. But would a cookie from Grandma help? :)) :hug:

[rhetorician]

Once again, *********, put up or shut up. Prove what I wrote is hateful, which would mean it has to be untrue, or be quiet.

God, if that site was hate speech, give me more of it! Sic 'em Droog!

[KAOSKTRL]

Two timer

[republicanprincess]

Yes I didn't know that truth is hate speech. I need to be put over someone's knee.

Preferably a petite female from the Gulf Coast. ;)

You're a bad boy, droog. :naughty: Sounds like that petite female might have good cause to put you over her knee. ;)

[rhetorician]

Two timer

Oops! :cry: Didn't know that was bad.

[Droog]

You're a bad boy, droog. :naughty: Sounds like that petite female might have good cause to put you over her knee. ;)http://home.comcast.net/%7Edeep_kemical/smilies/mean.gif

[RadarCat]

I don't know how long a typical Ph.D. thesis is, but I expect my book to be around 300-400 pages.

I appreciate the compliment though. The purpose of the book is to educate, and even if it only reaches a few dozen or hundred people, whatever, if there are that many who really read what it says and believe in it enough to pass it on with urgency, then that's a contribution to this war effort that I'll be satisfied with.
Perhaps you should consider sending a complimentary copy each to President Bush, Vice-President Cheney and Colorado Congressman Tom Tancredo.

RadarCat

[Droog]

buMp

[wwrwtw]

bump for the new apologist

[Lord Dreadmore]

this should be a sticky, lord knows it wont ever be but holy **** how blind and apologetic can some people be. they actually have to shut down half of their brain just to say some of the things they say when apologizing for the trash on the kitchen floor. just clean the damn mess!

[wwrwtw]

time to bump this baby up again for the aplogists

[Radioflyer]

Five simple concepts you need to know about Islam, how Islamic law is shaped, and how to sift through the lies and propaganda spewed by the "moderates". I will go through the basics in this opening post, and then get specific, citing the scriptures, in following posts, as well as provide a selected glossary of terms you need to understand as well. With these tools in hand, understanding the Religion of Peace as it pertains to Western society is far more simple than the apologists make it out to be. This is the Islam that Muhammad preached, the Islam that Muhammad ruled the first Islamic state by. It is not my "version" or my "opinion".

Abrogation

To the kafur (disbelievers in Islam), the Qur'an contains many contradictions. On the one hand, there are verses that appear to promote peaceful co-existance between Muslims and kafur; on the other hand, there are extremely violent and viciously intolerant verses as well. Can a Muslim "pick and choose"? What do these contradictions mean?

To the Muslim, the Qur'an contains no contradictions. How can God contradict Himself? There are merely instances where God sent down a commandment and then at a later time changed his mind about it. This is known as abrogation. There are a few verses in the Qur'an that deal with this. See following posts for what they say.

Progressive Revelation

If God changes His mind in the Qur'an then it becomes essential to know exactly what He changed His mind about and what He replaced with what. Thus the chronology of the Qur'an becomes essential.

When you open up a Qur'an you see that it is divided into 114 surahs (chapters). There are no other divisions to it, like there is the Old and New Testament of the Bible, for example. After the first surah, which is kind of like a Lord's Prayer of Islam, all chapters are presented from longest surah ("The Cow, 286 verses) to the shortest ("Mankind", 6 verses). But to Islamic jurists, there are different periods of revelation, and two distinct tones to the commandments revealed in these respective periods.

Scholars differ on the exact chronology of the surahs. Theodore Noldeke's is the widest accepted presentation, found here (http://mindfilter.net/chronorev.html). All scholars, however, divide the surahs into Meccan and Medinan periods. With hardly an exception, all of the tolerant, peaceful verses appear in the earlier Meccan surahs. Muhammad was a wannabe prophet, in a city full of pagans, Jews, and Christians with their own accepted, established religious practices. He needed them to listen to them. The original qiblah (direction faced when praying) was towards Jerusalem, not Mecca. Muhammad had to deal with the various tauntings and abuses meted out by the people of his city, particularly the pagans who ran the city, since the kabaa was a source of wealth due to pilgrims and merchants who often stopped there as they traveled between Syria and Yemen. Thus the verses he "recieved" in Mecca were often warnings to mankind and pleas for them to listen to God's final prophet.

In Medina, Muhammad becomes powerful. His raids on Meccan caravans bring him growing wealth and prestige, and a greater following. In medieval Arabia, concepts of right and wrong were associated with victory and defeat. Those who were right were victorious; those who were wrong were defeated. Muhammad was usually victorious.

As his following grew with each military victory and his ever growing treasury, his need for Jews and Christians and pagans to hear him lessened to the point where he had no need for them at all, and in fact felt them deserving of his now powerful wrath. Thus verses towards disbelievers become increasingly vicious and hateful, ending with surah 5, which commands ALL Muslims to never take ANY Jews and Christians for friends and protectors. This follows chapter 9, which exhorts Muslims to kill the Mushrikun wherever they can be found using every method of warfare...until they pay the poll tax in humiliation recognizing the superiority of Islam. The contrast is made more clear in following posts.

Thus, when Islamic jurists view contradicting verses in the Qur'an, it is the verse from the later period that takes precedent, and again in almost all cases the peaceful verses of Mecca are abrogated by the violence of Medina. Several surahs follow the Medinan surah 2, which contains the apologists' favorite no compulsion in religion, one of which of course is the command to fight the disbelievers until they pay a discriminatory poll tax and feel humiliated. If that's not religious compulsion I don't know what is.

All knowledgable Muslims are aware of these concepts.

The Sunnah: Muhammad's Example

The Qur'an, in several verses, teaches Muslims that Muhammad was essentially a perfect person, and that his example is a good one for those who wish to meet Allah in the Hereafter. Thus Muslims value the sunnah as nearly equal in religious importance to the Qur'an. A Muslim may not practice Islam without consulting both (see HERE (http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/)).

The Sunnah clarifies alot that may be confusing or vague about the Qur'an, and is essential when dictating shari'a law. A proper fatwa must cite both the Qur'an and the sunnah. Anyone who claims there is no violence in the Qur'an is not only a liar but is also intentionally ignoring the violence and debauchery of Muhammad's example that make the violence contained therein all the more worse. I will provide an example (the examples are far too numerous to bother with) that epitomizes the relationship between the Qur'an and the sunnah in the next post.

But essentially, the sunnah allows for every conceivable act of debauchery and what we consider today to be criminality, with the exception of cannibalism. Imagine every form of crime against humanity, from pedophilia to rape to mass murder: Muhammad is guilty by way of Islam's most authentic texts.

It is no surprise that many Western "Muslims" attempt to dismiss the sunnah as part of Islam (see HERE--our friend American Muslim is a member (http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/notislam/#submitters)), as if the Qur'an by itself were an example of love and tolerance. However, historically the sunnah has been part of Islam, and is a major factor in Islam's terrible history.

Jihad

Jihad is a term that is hotly debated and widely misunderstood, even by many of today's Muslims. Does it mean "holy war"? "Struggle"? What is the difference between the lesser jihad and the greater jihad? What is the real meaning of the jihad verses in the Qur'an? Can we ignore them or relativise them? What is their proper context?

Jihad is often considered the "sixth pillar" of Islam. It comes from the Arabic verb jahada, which means "he strove". Jihad is often referred to as "struggle" or "striving" in the way of God. It can mean different things, one of which can be deemed "holy fighting", the concept of which is far more prevalent in Islamic texts than the so-called "greater" jihad.

The hadiths of Bukhari and Muslim contain entire books on jihad, and the Qur'an is littered with verses devoted to it. It's not a pretty sight. The first verse of the Qur'an that deals with jihad is 002.190, for which the Qur'an translated by Al-Hilali and Khan provides the following footnote:Al-Jihâd (holy fighting) in Allâh’s Cause (with full force of numbers and weaponry) is given the utmost importance in Islam and is one of its pillars (on which it stands). By Jihâd Islam is established, Allâh’s Word is made superior (His Word being Lâ ilaha illallâh which means none has the right to be worshipped but Allâh), and His religion (Islam) is propagated. By abandoning Jihâd (may Allâh protect us from that) Islam is destroyed and the Muslims fall into an inferior position; their honor is lost, their lands are stolen, their rule and authority vanish. Jihâd is an obligatory duty in Islam on every Muslim, and he who tries to escape from this duty, or does not in his innermost heart wish to fulfill this duty, dies with one of the qualities of a hypocrite.
I will go into scriptural detail regarding this commentary in the following posts.

Continued...Ditto.

[Loyal American]

time to bump this baby up again for the aplogists

I love this thread and when you think about it we have a lot more on this board.............if people would just read them! :rolleyes:

[Lord Dreadmore]

bump

[Whitehorse]

Very good information & analysis. In the Christian Bible, the New Testament is the fulfillment of the Old Testament. Looking @ the Koran from beginning to end, it seems the fulfillment can be fairly bloody. I'm sure there are "moderate muslims" out there who just want to live their lives & not obliterate anyone, but those who aren't must be stopped.

[Landsknecht]

Wow! Thanks for bumping this up. There are a few apologists here at work who are going to look like they found a great big turd in their coffee cups this morning. :twisted: (evil laugh):twisted:

[sgtmac_46]

Numbers 31:31-40 (King James Version)
King James Version (KJV)


31: And Moses and Eleazar the priest did as the LORD commanded Moses.

32: And the booty, being the rest of the prey which the men of war had caught, was six hundred thousand and seventy thousand and five thousand sheep,

33: And threescore and twelve thousand beeves,

34: And threescore and one thousand asses,

35: And thirty and two thousand persons in all, of women that had not known man by lying with him.

36: And the half, which was the portion of them that went out to war, was in number three hundred thousand and seven and thirty thousand and five hundred sheep:

37: And the LORD'S tribute of the sheep was six hundred and threescore and fifteen.

38: And the beeves were thirty and six thousand; of which the LORD'S tribute was threescore and twelve.

39: And the asses were thirty thousand and five hundred; of which the LORD'S tribute was threescore and one.

40: And the persons were sixteen thousand; of which the LORD'S tribute was thirty and two persons.


THE Religion of peace ? And if Jews and Christians were CURRENTLY killing millions in the name of those versus.....you might have a point. The reality is, however, that Islam is at war with the SECULAR western world, AND Hinduism, AND Buddhism, AND Atheism, AND Christianity, AND pretty much the rest of the world.

[Droog]

Blast from the past. Wow.

[Landsknecht]

When you leave golden apples lying about someone is bound to pick one up from time to time.

[Lord Dreadmore]

Wow! Thanks for bumping this up. There are a few apologists here at work who are going to look like they found a great big turd in their coffee cups this morning. :twisted: (evil laugh):twisted:

rip em a new one

[Lexecon]

Wow Droog, I had never seen this. Quite excellent, and the points on abrogation always bear repeating.

Where is this housed NOW? Just here? I'd love to post this sometime, only with your permission. Great, great work. Proud just to be posting with you.

[Droog]

I believe I reworked it a little and changed the title to The Five Pillars of Jihad.

http://geocities.com/ibniblis/fivepillarsofjihad.html

[Gengar]

Droog, sorry if I missed any mention in your work, but you might also want to bring up the 4 schools of Sunni Islam jurisprudence (Maliki/Hanbali/Shafi'i/Hanafu)and what they teach about Jihad...

The following is from the Hanafi school, straight out of the Hidaya, which is readily available at Amazon.com:

It is not lawful to make war upon any people who have never before been called to the faith, without previously requiring them to embrace it, because the Prophet so instructed his commanders, directing them to call the infidels to the faith, and also because the people will hence perceive that they are attacked for the sake of religion, and not for the sake of taking their property, or making slaves of their children, and on this consideration it is possible that they may be induced to agree to the call, in order to save themselves from the troubles of war... If the infidels, upon receiving the call, neither consent to it nor agree to pay capitation tax, it is then incumbent on the Muslims to call upon God for assistance, and to make war upon them, because God is the assistant of those who serve Him, and the destroyer of his enemies, the infidels, and it is necessary to implore His aid upon every occasion, the Prophet moreover, commands us so to do.

[Droog]

Classical Muslim Treatises on Jihad

This analysis of Islamic text with regards to jihad is mostly drawn from my own studies and conclusions. Apologists would certainly (and perhaps correctly) question my credentials to render such judgements on Islamic jurisprudence, even though I have access to more than enough scripture to educate myself on my own. But throughout history the most reknowned and venerable minds of all schools of Islamic thought have also agreed on the meaning of jihad.

The best and most damning example is that of Al-Ghazali (1058-1111 C.E.), for two reasons. First, he was a Sufi, a sect of Islam that, because of their poetry and so-called mysticism, is often given as an example of enlightened Islam. Second, he is widely recognized as the second-most important Muslim ever to live, next to Muhammad himself. Of jihad Al-Ghazali says:
...[O]ne must go on jihad (ie., warlike razzias or raids) at least once a year...If a person of the ahl-kitab [People of the book--Jews and Christians, typically] is enslaved, his marriage is [automatically] revoked...One may cut down their trees...One must destroy their useless books. Jihadists may take as booty whatever they decide...they may steal as much food as they need...

[On the dhimmis subjected by jihad]

...[T]he dhimmi is obliged not to mention Allah or His Apostle...Jews, Christians, and Majains must pay the jizya [poll tax on non-Muslims]...on offering up the jizya, the dhimmi must hang his head while the official takes hold of his beard and hits [the dhimmi] on the protruberant bone beneath his ear [ie., the mandible]...They are not permitted to ostentaniously display their wine or church bells...their houses may not be higher than a Muslim's, no matter how low that is. The dhimmi may not ride an elegant horse or mule; he may ride a donkey only if the saddle[-work] is of wood. He may not walk on the good part of the road. They [the dhimmis] have to wear [an identifying] patch [on their clothing], even women, and even in the [public] baths...[dhimmis] must hold their tongue.
One of the most notorious Muslim jurists of all time, Ibn Taymiyya, widely dismissed by apologists as an "extremist", was a Sufi jurist, and held similar views on jihad:
The penalties that the shari'a has introduced for those who disobey God and his messenger are of two kinds: the punishment of those who are under the sway [of the imam], both individuals and collectivities, as has been mentioned before [in the chapter on criminal law], and, secondly, the punishment of recalcitrant groups, such as those that can only be brought under the sway of the imam by a decisive fight. That then is the jihad against the disbelievers (kafr), the enemies of God and His Messenger, Peace be upon him, and has not responded to it, must be fought, "until there is no persecution and the religion is God's entirely.
The Hidayah of Shaikh Burhanuddin (1135-1196 CE), represents the Hanafi school of thought. Burhanuddin's view of jihad:
It is not lawful to make war upon any people who have never before been called to the faith, without previously requiring them to embrace it, because the Prophet so instructed his commanders, directing them to call the infidels to the faith, and also because the people will hence perceive that they are attacked for the sake of religion, and not for the sake of taking their property, or making slaves of their children, and on this consideration it is possible that they may be induced to agree to the call, in order to save themselves from the troubles of war ... If the infidels, upon receiving the call, neither consent to it nor agree to pay capitation tax, it is then incumbent on the Muslims to call upon God for assistance, and to make war upon them, because God is the assistant of those who serve Him, and the destroyer of His enemies, the infidels, and it is necessary to implore His aid upon every occasion; the Prophet, moreover, commands us so to do.
Al-Mawardi (978-1058 C.E.), a Shafi'i and one of the most famous Islamic minds of the middle ages, discusses jihad in his al-Ahkam as-Sultaniyyah (Laws of Islamic Governance):
The amirate of jihad is particularly concerned with fighting the mushrikûn. This section deals with the direction of war. The mushrikûn of Dar al-Harb (the arena of battle) are of two types:

First, those whom the call of Islam has reached, but they have refused it and have taken up arms. The amir of the army has the option of fighting them in one of two ways, that is in accordance with what he judges to be in the best interest of the Muslims and most harmful to the mushrikûn; the first, to harry them from their houses and to inflict damage on them day and night, by fighting and burning, or else to declare war and combat them in ranks; Second, those whom the invitation to Islam has not reached, although such persons are few nowadays since Allah has made manifest the call of his Messenger - unless there are people to the east and extreme east, or to the west, of whom we have no knowledge, beyond the Turks and Romans we are fighting; it is forbidden us to initiate an attack on the mushrikûn while they are unawares or at night, that is, it is forbidden to kill them, use fire against them or begin to attack before explaining the invitation to Islam to them, informing them of the miracles of the Prophet and making plain proofs so as to encourage acceptance on their part; if they still refuse to accept after this, war is waged against them and they are treated as those whom the call has reached.
Averroes, or Ibn Rushd, was an Andalusian-Arab philosopher and physician, a Maliki master of philosophy and Islamic law and author of the Bidayat al-Mujtahid. In it, he offers the following rulings on jihad:
Par. 1. The legal qualification (hukm) of this activity and the persons obliged to take part in it

Scholars agree that the jihad is a collective not a personal obligation. According to the majority of scholars, the compulsory nature of the jihad is founded on [K 2:216]: "Fighting is prescribed for you, though it is distasteful to you." That this obligation is a collective and not a personal one, i.e., that the obligation, when it can be properly carried out by a limited number of individuals, is cancelled for the remaining Muslims, is founded on [K9:112]: "It is not for the believers to march out all together..." The obligation to participate in the jihad applies to adult free men who have the means at their disposal to go to war and who are healthy, that is, not suffering from chronic diseases. There is absolutely no controversy about the latter restriction, because of [K 48:17]: "There is no blame upon the blind, or upon the lame, or upon the sick," and because of [K 9:91]: "No blame rests upon the frail or upon the sick or upon those who find nothing to contribute."

Par. 2. The Enemy

Scholars agree that all polytheists should be fought. This is founded on [K 8:39]: "Fight them until there is no persecution and the religion is entirely Allah's."

Par. 3. The damage allowed to be inflicted upon the different categories of enemies

Damage inflicted upon the enemy may consist in damage to his property, injury to his person or violation of his personal liberty, i.e., that he is made a slave and is appropriated. This may be done, according to the Consensus (ijma), to all polytheists: men, women, young and old, important and unimportant ... Most scholars are agreed that, in his dealing with captives, various policies are open to the Imam [head of the Islamic state, caliph]. He may pardon them, kill them, or release them either on ransom or as dhimmi [non-Muslim subject of the Islamic state], in which latter case the released captive is obliged to pay the poll tax [jizyah].
Ibn Khaldun (1332-1395 C.E), also a Maliki, described by Islamic scholar Bernard Lewis as surely the greatest of all Arab historians, is the author of The Muqaddimah, which laid down the foundations of several fields of Islamic knowledge, including philosophy, history, sociology, and economics. In it he speaks of the importance of jihad:
In the Muslim community, the holy war is a religious duty, because of the universalism of the (Muslim) mission and (the obligation to) convert everybody to Islam either by persuasion or by force. Therefore, caliphate and royal authority are united (in Islam), so that the person in charge can devote the available strength to both of them (religion and politics) at the same time. The other religious groups did not have a universal mission, and the holy war was not a religious duty to them, save only for purposes of defense. It has thus come about that the person in charge of religious affairs (in other religious groups) is not concerned with power politics at all. (Among them), royal authority comes to those who have it, by accident and in some way that has nothing to do with religion. It comes to them as the necessary result of group feeling, which by its very nature seeks to obtain royal authority, as we have mentioned before, and not because they are under obligation to gain power over other nations, as is the case with Islam. They are merely required to establish their religion among their own (people).
As mentioned, the fact that there are several different sects of Islam is often given as a deflection against the universal definition of jihad. However, all schools of Islamic thought are unanimous on the definition of jihad - even the mystical sect of Sufism, as highlighted above by the writings of Al-Ghazali. There are of course other differences between the sects of Islam, but these are of little consequence to the mushrikûn of Dar al-Harb. http://geocities.com/ibniblis/jihad

[Gengar]

Ok good. ;)

[Lord Dreadmore]

Droog, sorry if I missed any mention in your work, but you might also want to bring up the 4 schools of Sunni Islam jurisprudence (Maliki/Hanbali/Shafi'i/Hanafu)and what they teach about Jihad...

The following is from the Hanafi school, straight out of the Hidaya, which is readily available at Amazon.com:

It is not lawful to make war upon any people who have never before been called to the faith, without previously requiring them to embrace it, because the Prophet so instructed his commanders, directing them to call the infidels to the faith, and also because the people will hence perceive that they are attacked for the sake of religion, and not for the sake of taking their property, or making slaves of their children, and on this consideration it is possible that they may be induced to agree to the call, in order to save themselves from the troubles of war... If the infidels, upon receiving the call, neither consent to it nor agree to pay capitation tax, it is then incumbent on the Muslims to call upon God for assistance, and to make war upon them, because God is the assistant of those who serve Him, and the destroyer of his enemies, the infidels, and it is necessary to implore His aid upon every occasion, the Prophet moreover, commands us so to do.

notice it does not say "the extremists, or the radicals, or the terrorists?"

good find

[Landsknecht]

I'll never forget. BUMP!

[Lord Dreadmore]

bump

[colorado]

Quote:
It is not lawful to make war upon any people who have never before been called to the faith, without previously requiring them to embrace it, because the Prophet so instructed his commanders, directing them to call the infidels to the faith, and also because the people will hence perceive that they are attacked for the sake of religion, and not for the sake of taking their property, or making slaves of their children, and on this consideration it is possible that they may be induced to agree to the call, in order to save themselves from the troubles of war... If the infidels, upon receiving the call, neither consent to it nor agree to pay capitation tax, it is then incumbent on the Muslims to call upon God for assistance, and to make war upon them, because God is the assistant of those who serve Him, and the destroyer of his enemies, the infidels, and it is necessary to implore His aid upon every occasion, the Prophet moreover, commands us so to do.


Excellent thread Droog, one of the best I have read concerning islam.

The yellow parts in the quote appears to me to be the words of satan, not the Lord.

Which I honestly believe islam is all about anyway.

I knew nothing of the koran or islam until 911, then began a study.

You have laid it out just as I have read it.

In fact the koran speaks directly in opposition of the Words of God, found from Moses and the 10 Commandments, to the Words of Jesus Christ and the Apostles.

Therefore I have concluded the entire book is Anti-Christ.

[The Bos'un]

As-Salāmu `Alaykum (السلام عليكم)

I think it is time to dust off the books and gather round the table to discuss this again.

Salām ( سلام ),

Peace, Bosun

[The Bos'un]

here is a good thread, Mark23. This is how we used to discuss the topic....

[Rhonda]

here is a good thread, Mark23. This is how we used to discuss the topic....

That was the good old days..*sigh*

[mark23]

here is a good thread, Mark23. This is how we used to discuss the topic....

Thanks.

[cfinstr]

Wonderful thread from the past. Droog and long time fellow Crusader, KAOSKTRL.

A good and still timely read, what with the HOMIE of the imperialist islamics sitting in the White House.

[The Bos'un]

Bless them all. Don't forget ww and so many others.

http://ts2.images.live.com/images/thumbnail.aspx?q=587121888137&id=1d392d365da724ca95e0378644e9338d

[Loyal American]

here is a good thread, Mark23. This is how we used to discuss the topic....
Yes and we can't forget 'American Muslim's' thread!
Blahahahaha!

[The Bos'un]

Where did AM go, anyway? I have not heard from her in a looooong time. Remember when AM said that I could not begin to understand the Qur'an because I was not an Arabic speaker. I think it was something that the Qur'an could not be translated and that the true meaning of the religion of peace was lost in the other languages........

And least we not forget Abdur. He never did answer most of my questions. We did have some lively discussions, back then, didn't we?

[Loyal American]

Where did AM go, anyway? I have not heard from her in a looooong time. Remember when AM said that I could not begin to understand the Qur'an because I was not an Arabic speaker. I think it was something that the Qur'an could not be translated and that the true meaning of the religion of peace was lost in the other languages........
I reported her for COH a loooong time ago, she went bye-bye!
Yes, we need to speak Arabic to understand the Qur'an and remember the Hadith just isn't important! LOL!

And least we not forget Abdur. He never did answer most of my questions. We did have some lively discussions, back then, didn't we?Now I haven't seen him in a long time but you know he's spot on with all his posting and we are just WRONG! .......:lol:

[wwrwtw]

ahhhh..the old days.
Good times

[Loyal American]

ahhhh..the old days.
Good timesSheeesh, I was just telling Rhonda the other day how much I miss you and KAOS!

How you doin'? :hug:

[The Bos'un]

I thought AM just left out of frustation for us infidels... And Abdur, wonder when he will start posting again?

[wwrwtw]

Sheeesh, I was just telling Rhonda the other day how much I miss you and KAOS!

How you doin'? :hug:

:hug:
I am doing great! KAOS is great, too.

How about you? How are things with you?

[Loyal American]

:hug:
I am doing great! KAOS is great, too.

How about you? How are things with you?Things are just fine here! It's almost 1am and I get up with the chickens so it's way past my bedtime! ;) I miss the good ol' US of A a lot! :(

You have to come see us more often and maybe KAOS could ask the mods to come back too! This is still the best forum around for getting the news out! We could have a reunion! :mrgreen:

[Droog]

I wish jihad were the biggest problem we face these days, but I believe America will die by her own sword long before we face the sword of Islam. The jihadists can just sit and watch the show.

[Rhonda]

ahhhh..the old days.
Good times

Hey lady..good to see you! :hug:

[Rhonda]

I thought AM just left out of frustation for us infidels... And Abdur, wonder when he will start posting again?


I guess he is busy :mrgreen:

[The Bos'un]

I wonder where? ;)

[The Bos'un]

ww my friend, great to hear from you again.... :hug:

[The Bos'un]

Yep, they are sitting around chuckling on how we are imploding. One has to wonder how they knew we would implode. Bin Laden alluded to our pending doom and Zawahiri has said as much.

Now they sit back and wait to manipulate the pieces...

[wwrwtw]

I wish jihad were the biggest problem we face these days, but I believe America will die by her own sword long before we face the sword of Islam. The jihadists can just sit and watch the show.

Sad but true, Droog.

[wwrwtw]

Hey lady..good to see you! :hug:

:hug: Hiya Woman

[wwrwtw]

ww my friend, great to hear from you again.... :hug:

:hug: Hiya Bos'un

My, you have really come a long way. Keep up the good fight buddy

[Rhonda]

I wish jihad were the biggest problem we face these days, but I believe America will die by her own sword long before we face the sword of Islam. The jihadists can just sit and watch the show.


Yeah iit is kind of like a criminal taking the first shot, and then the doctor that is suppose to care for the patient decides that the patient needs euthanized

[The Bos'un]

Courtesy of MEMRI (http://memri.org/bin/articles.cgi?Page=archives&Area=ia&ID=IA38707)

‘The Battle... Is Economic Rather than Military' – An Economically Oriented Concept of Jihad Emerges in Islamist Discourse
By: E. Alshech. *

Introduction

The concept of jihad, dating back to the earliest stages of Islam, has always been open to various interpretations. Since Islamic sources define jihad in very broad terms, Muslims have, throughout Islamic history, been able to transform and extend its meaning according to their specific perceptions and needs. This document focuses on a concept of jihad that has been emerging for some time in Islamist discourse, as is evident in Islamist forums and websites. In this permutation, jihad is perceived as being aimed primarily at undermining the Western economy, particularly the U.S. economy, with the ultimate goal of bringing about the total collapse of the West. [1] (http://memri.org/bin/articles.cgi?Page=archives&Area=ia&ID=IA38707#_edn1) In practical terms, this concept of jihad does not pose an immediate and substantial danger to Western economy. However, it nonetheless merits attention, since it represents a broadening of the boundaries of jihad, and widens the circle of people who can potentially be involved in jihadist activity.

"The Destruction of Its Economy Will Cause the U.S. to... Disappear Like the Soviet Union"

Islamist websites rarely engage in comprehensive theoretical discussions about the overall goals of global jihad. However, postings on this topic that occasionally appear on Islamist forums provide crucial insight into the Islamists' understanding of their struggle against the West. For example, an article posted on www.alhesbah.org (http://www.alhesbah.org/) in 2003, by an individual named Abu Mus'ab, stated that the key to defeating the U.S. is to weaken its economy: "No reasonable person can deny the United States' military, economic and technological power... [However, both the U.S.'s] technological research and its military forces depend on the economy. [Consequently,] the destruction of its economy will cause the U.S. to disintegrate, collapse, and disappear, just like the Soviet Union. [2] (http://memri.org/bin/articles.cgi?Page=archives&Area=ia&ID=IA38707#_edn2) Therefore, studying America's economy is [even more crucial] than examining its military forces..." [3] (http://memri.org/bin/articles.cgi?Page=archives&Area=ia&ID=IA38707#_edn3)

"The Primary Goal of [Al-Qaeda's] War Against America... Is to Defeat it Economically"

A similar point was made in another article on www.alhesbah.org (http://www.alhesbah.org/), titled "Al-Qaeda's Battle Is an Economic [Battle] - Not a Military One," posted in 2005 by an individual named Abu Mus'ab Al-Najdi. The article stated that "the primary goal of [Al-Qaeda's] war against America... is to defeat it economically. Anything that causes losses to its economy we regard as a step towards victory. Accordingly, the criterion for absolute victory is not [just] a military defeat [of the enemy]... but [a military defeat] which indirectly affects the economy, [for example by] causing economists to lose confidence in [America's] ability to protect its... trade ." [4] (http://memri.org/bin/articles.cgi?Page=archives&Area=ia&ID=IA38707#_edn4)

The article mentioned the 9/11 attacks as an example. The important question, it said, "is not... how many infidels died [in these attacks]... but the effect they had on the [American] economy... The [9/11] attack was successful by every standard, [since] the U.S. is still reeling from its [economic] impact... [5] (http://memri.org/bin/articles.cgi?Page=archives&Area=ia&ID=IA38707#_edn5) One [therefore] hopes that those who take interest in our struggle against America... will embrace this strategy without reservation. [We can] shorten the duration of the battle... by focusing all our strength on purely economic targets... [Unfortunately,] many people regard these [targets] as worthless... It would be a mistake for these youths to retain this simplistic understanding of the nature of the battle."

The article also stated that Al-Qaeda's attacks on U.S. troops in Iraq constitute a crucial component of its economic war against America: "The [I]mujahideen prevented the American enemy from obtaining a large share of Iraq's oil. [By laying their hands on this oil,] the Americans hoped to temporarily alleviate the [economic] damage caused by the 9/11 attacks, until they could gain complete control over the [entire] oil [market]. [The U.S.] now controls two-thirds [of Iraq's oil], and it hopes to gain control over the rest when it finishes its [political maneuvers] in Iraq." It will be shown below that blocking the West's access to major oil resources is a crucial component of the Islamists' perception of their economic war on the West.
They are just sitting back watching the draining of the swamp of the "great satan" and the west.

[Rhonda]

I miss LordDreadmore too

[The Bos'un]

I have not chatted with LD for a while. Yes I miss him, too.

[cfinstr]

It is nice to hear that "Many W's" is doing well as is KAOS. Hi.

cfinstr

[The Bos'un]

Droog, you are right.

http://ts4.images.live.com/images/thumbnail.aspx?q=577840492195&id=bdc67074f1c290b470ab1ef1c87be772"If destruction be our lot, we must ourselves be its author and finisher. As a nation of freemen, we must live through all time, or die by suicide." – Abraham Lincoln

[Rhonda]

Bump for the nooby apologists, and a big HI to my old friends, I miss you all :hug: