HBO's "Big Love"..

[Fire Watch]

I had no idea what this show was about until I caught an episode last night..about half way through.

LDS'ers..what do you think about it? Does is accurately reflect the lives of some of the off-shoot sects of Mormonism? Or do you not know/care?

HBO's Big Love Home Page: Click Here (http://www.hbo.com/biglove/)

[CALady]

I had no idea what this show was about until I caught an episode last night..about half way through.

LDS'ers..what do you think about it? Does is accurately reflect the lives of some of the off-shoot sects of Mormonism? Or do you not know/care?

I don't know anyone in an "off-shoot" sect so I really don't have a clue about these people, and honestly, I don't really care. They may as well call themselves "Peanut Heads" as "Mormons" since that's about as meaningful.

[Fire Watch]

Other than the polygamy aspect..what about them causes so much vitriol from mainstream LDS'ers?

[CALady]

Other than the polygamy aspect..what about them causes so much vitriol from mainstream LDS'ers?

When that show started the LDS Church made a statement saying the show didn't clearly identify these people as non-LDS. They even set the show in SLC, I believe, adding to the blurring of the line.

I'm not really aware of any vitriol. Just a concern that this show adds to misrepresentations and confusion, and probably does so on purpose. Why would they do that?

[Fire Watch]

I dunno. It's kind of interesting though..I got into it a bit.

They're obviously not LDS, but they are Mormon right?

[MrCapitalism]

I think its currently the best show on TV personally, but then again, I'm not a mormon.

[Fire Watch]

I think its currently the best show on TV personally, but then again, I'm not a mormon.
No way.. Man vs Wild is the best, hands down. Man vs. Wild home page..click here (http://dsc.discovery.com/fansites/manvswild/manvswild.html)

[Seeker]

I dunno. It's kind of interesting though..I got into it a bit.

They're obviously not LDS, but they are Mormon right?

No they are not. Many have never even been LDS (or Mormon). Practicing polygamy will get you excommunicated, making you a former Mormon.

[Fire Watch]

No they are not. Many have never even been LDS (or Mormon). Practicing polygamy will get you excommunicated, making you a former Mormon.
Only according to the LDS standards though right? Is it the LDS contention that one cannot be Mormon without being LDS?

[tulsatech]

When that show started the LDS Church made a statement saying the show didn't clearly identify these people as non-LDS. They even set the show in SLC, I believe, adding to the blurring of the line.

I'm not really aware of any vitriol. Just a concern that this show adds to misrepresentations and confusion, and probably does so on purpose. Why would they do that?Ahh, now come on CALady, it's all about unity and ecumenicism. They believe in God, Jesus, the Book of Mormon, Joseph Smith and Brigham Young, so why wouldn't you want them to call themselves "Mormons"? Why on earth would someone who likes to stress similarities among Christians not want to do the same thing with other Mormons?

[tulsatech]

Only according to the LDS standards though right? Is it the LDS contention that one cannot be Mormon without being LDS?That's like saying you cannot be a "Christian" without being a "Baptist" or "Oneness Pentecostal" or some other Christian denomination.

[CALady]

Ahh, now come on CALady, it's all about unity and ecumenicism. They believe in God, Jesus, the Book of Mormon, Joseph Smith and Brigham Young, so why wouldn't you want them to call themselves "Mormons"? Why on earth would someone who likes to stress similarities among Christians not want to do the same thing with other Mormons?

So some guys in New Jersey decide to call themselves "Roman Catholic" and practice abortions and the real "Roman Catholic" church is not allowed to clarify that these guys in New Jersey are not members of the real "Roman Catholic" church?

Get a grip.

[tulsatech]

So some guys in New Jersey decide to call themselves "Roman Catholic" and practice abortions and the real "Roman Catholic" church is not allowed to clarify that these guys in New Jersey are not members of the real "Roman Catholic" church?

Get a grip.Funny how that same argument has been used with regards to who can call themselves a "Christian". Thanks for proving my point.

[CALady]

Funny how that same argument has been used with regards to who can call themselves a "Christian". Thanks for proving my point.

No, "Christian" is a broad term identifying followers of Jesus Christ to distinguish them from followers of Mohammed or Buddah or nobody.

"Roman Catholic", "Methodist", "Lutheran", etc. are organizations with documented membership. One is not a "Roman Catholic" unless one is an accepted member of that organized church. If the guys in New Jersey decide to call themselves "Roman Catholics" then the Vatican has the right to clarify that these guys are not members and do not represent the "Roman Catholic" church.

Again, get a grip.

[Fire Watch]

So some guys in New Jersey decide to call themselves "Roman Catholic" and practice abortions and the real "Roman Catholic" church is not allowed to clarify that these guys in New Jersey are not members of the real "Roman Catholic" church?
I dont think these folks call themselves LDS though do they? They claim to be Mormon followers though. There are several sects of Baptist, Lutherans, Methodists, Pentecostals, ect..yet all fall under the Christian banner.

[tulsatech]

No, "Christian" is a broad term identifying followers of Jesus Christ to distinguish them from followers of Mohammed or Buddah or nobody.

"Roman Catholic", "Methodist", "Lutheran", etc. are organizations with documented membership. One is not a "Roman Catholic" unless one is an accepted member of that organized church. If the guys in New Jersey decide to call themselves "Roman Catholics" then the Vatican has the right to clarify that these guys are not members and do not represent the "Roman Catholic" church.

Again, get a grip.And I hope you realize that "Mormon" or to use the broader term "Mormonism" would also be a "broad term identifying followers of" Joseph Smith, who believe in the divine authenticity of the Book of Mormon, latter-day prophets, etc. You might even call them restorationists but not all "restorationists" necessarily believe Joseph Smith was called by God. My point being that just because you slap a label on your lapel does not make you what you claim to be (I think we are in agreement on that point).

Christianity in general terms is a huge umbrella. Clearly it is different from other world religions such as Islam and Judaism. Yet, beneath this umbrella you will find other large groups which have denominations below them. For instance, Catholicism has it's denominations, Protestants have their denominations, Restorationists have their denominations and in a smaller scale Mormonism has it's denominations. Like it or not, as Mormonism continues to grow (and not just your particular Church) the term "Mormon" will be applied to anyone who chooses to wear that label (whether they are "LDS" or not).

ETA: Now I understand that you don't consider these other "Mormons" as true Denominations and you probably view them more as Apostates (assuming they broke off from the LDS church). However, I hope you can see that people who left traditional Christian churches to join the LDS faith (or some other "Mormon" group) are also viewed as "apostates" since traditional Christians view them as having "left the faith" i.e. apostate. I am not saying this in a vitriolic manner, just using the correct meaning of the word "apostate".

[terri910]

I don't know anyone in an "off-shoot" sect so I really don't have a clue about these people, and honestly, I don't really care.
I have actually met some polygamists! :eek:

We were in Baja California, Mexico, and had arranged to go to dinner with some friends that now live there...and this other family happened to be in the area and came to dinner, too.

Our mutual friends asked the fellow about his other wife and the fellow said she was back home in Utah waiting for baby #something-or-other to arrive, and I thought he was joking....but as the evening and the conversation progressed, we realized that it was no joke. I do not remember the fellow's name (my husband might; he's much better remembering names) but our friend told us they were part of a polygamist family that is rather well-known (or, perhaps infamous is a better word) in Utah.

The polygamists didn't make a big deal of it; it was obviously just life-as-usual for them. I just wished we'd figured out it was for real earlier....maybe I'd have asked a few questions!

Anyway....I like Big Love...but I happen to like Bill Paxton (met him at a party! *L*). I think they are pretty clear that the polygamist sect is NOT a part of the LDS Church. In fact, one of the recurring themes is one of them having to hide their polygamy from the neighbors, co-workers, etc. I couldn't tell you if there is any purposeful attempt to make Mormons look bad.

Interesting trivia: Bruce Dern, who I believe played Bill Paxton's character's father, is the grandson of a former Utah governor....so he feels he has a sort of affinity for the part.

[tulsatech]

I've never been much of a Bill Paxton fan. I don't know what it is about him. Maybe it's his mannerisms or tone of voice, but I always have a hard time seeing his character because his personality blocks my view. But then, maybe he's not really a method actor. :think:

[MobyMule]

I have not seen it since I don't get HBO. I'm not really concerned about it. It has given me some opprotunity to talk about what I as an LDS believe and practice so I guess it has it's positives.

Mormon Shmormon I don't really care what they call themselves I don't let those kind of things bother me.

[SarahG]

No they are not. Many have never even been LDS (or Mormon). Practicing polygamy will get you excommunicated, making you a former Mormon.

In the show, they are hiding the fact that they are polygimists. They even have a faction where some of them live in a big commune and if they see a car coming, the women gather up the kids and go down into shelters so nobody will see them.

The main characters in the show live in the suburbs. You can see three videos here on what it was like in the beginning if you like:

http://www.hbo.com/biglove/

[supreme_war_Pig]

I dont think these folks call themselves LDS though do they? They claim to be Mormon followers though. There are several sects of Baptist, Lutherans, Methodists, Pentecostals, ect..yet all fall under the Christian banner.


-They follow the teachings of Joseph Smith and Brigham Young, which are pretty much the identifying characteristics of Morrmons. However, they are an offshoot of the church, in that plural marriage was abandoned over 100 years ago.
-To your original question: the depiction of the compound (great wealth at the center, poverty at the edge, isolation, control in the name of god, prairie garb, etc) is spot on.
-The depiction of Bill's 4 families is pretty rosy. There may be polygamists in the city living that well, but let's face it: their lifestyle is upper middle class, polygamists or not.

[tulsatech]

-They follow the teachings of Joseph Smith and Brigham Young, which are pretty much the identifying characteristics of Morrmons. However, they are an offshoot of the church, in that plural marriage was abandoned over 100 years ago.
-To your original question: the depiction of the compound (great wealth at the center, poverty at the edge, isolation, control in the name of god, prairie garb, etc) is spot on.
-The depiction of Bill's 4 families is pretty rosy. There may be polygamists in the city living that well, but let's face it: their lifestyle is upper middle class, polygamists or not.I'd say you'd have to be pretty well off and/or extremely financially stable to support that many wives and children. I haven't seen the show, but do the wives also work or do they stay at home and take care of all the children? I can see an advantage to the family unit if some of the wives worked and brought in additional income.

[Fire Watch]

-The depiction of Bill's 4 families is pretty rosy. There may be polygamists in the city living that well, but let's face it: their lifestyle is upper middle class, polygamists or not.
I saw a documentary not long ago about a Mormon offshoot sect, polygamist, that lived in a community by themselves..the majority of the houses were 15-20,000 sq ft and larger..they supported themselves, the community did everything from building the houses on up.

[scipio337]

No way.. Man vs Wild is the best, hands down. Man vs. Wild home page..click here (http://dsc.discovery.com/fansites/manvswild/manvswild.html)No way. Grylls has an entire filming crew with him.

I prefer Survivorman.

[Fire Watch]

No way. Grylls has an entire filming crew with him.

Well, someone has to document his badness. I hear Chuck Norris watches and takes notes.

[tulsatech]

Well, someone has to document his badness. I hear Chuck Norris watches and takes notes.Besides fish, what else does he eat raw?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gRTIkj5HF90&NR=1

[terri910]

[quote=supreme_war_Pig;9193000-The depiction of Bill's 4 families is pretty rosy. There may be polygamists in the city living that well, but let's face it: their lifestyle is upper middle class, polygamists or not.[/quote]
Four families?

Something tells me I've missed some vital episodes! Last time I watched, he only had three wives (listen to me..."only" three wives! *L*).

But, yeah, I wish our family lived as well-to-do as his three! But, then, we don't own a large home supply chain, like he does!

[terri910]

I saw a documentary not long ago about a Mormon offshoot sect, polygamist, that lived in a community by themselves..the majority of the houses were 15-20,000 sq ft and larger..they supported themselves, the community did everything from building the houses on up.
But Bil Paxton's character's family doesn't live off on their own. They live in an upscale suburban neighborhood....they just have three separate homes that connect by having no fences in their back yards....and a common swimming pool. I should think it would be much easier to make it work if you isolated yourself to a "commune" type situation.

[tulsatech]

But Bil Paxton's character's family doesn't live off on their own. They live in an upscale suburban neighborhood....they just have three separate homes that connect by having no fences in their back yards....and a common swimming pool. I should think it would be much easier to make it work if you isolated yourself to a "commune" type situation.
I wonder what the mortgage is on those "upscale suburban" homes. $250k, $350k, higher? And he had 3? :faints:

[coMITTed]

And I hope you realize that "Mormon" or to use the broader term "Mormonism" would also be a "broad term identifying followers of" Joseph Smith, who believe in the divine authenticity of the Book of Mormon, latter-day prophets, etc. You might even call them restorationists but not all "restorationists" necessarily believe Joseph Smith was called by God. My point being that just because you slap a label on your lapel does not make you what you claim to be (I think we are in agreement on that point).

Christianity in general terms is a huge umbrella. Clearly it is different from other world religions such as Islam and Judaism. Yet, beneath this umbrella you will find other large groups which have denominations below them. For instance, Catholicism has it's denominations, Protestants have their denominations, Restorationists have their denominations and in a smaller scale Mormonism has it's denominations. Like it or not, as Mormonism continues to grow (and not just your particular Church) the term "Mormon" will be applied to anyone who chooses to wear that label (whether they are "LDS" or not).

ETA: Now I understand that you don't consider these other "Mormons" as true Denominations and you probably view them more as Apostates (assuming they broke off from the LDS church). However, I hope you can see that people who left traditional Christian churches to join the LDS faith (or some other "Mormon" group) are also viewed as "apostates" since traditional Christians view them as having "left the faith" i.e. apostate. I am not saying this in a vitriolic manner, just using the correct meaning of the word "apostate".

How many times do we have to go through this? :rolleyes: The term "Mormon" is a nickname for members of the LDS Church--not offshoots, not polygamist sects, not people who believe the BOM but won't commit to baptism (I'm not including people who can't be baptized, for whatever reason, here--only those who can but won't). If I decided I wanted to be a Baptist but wanted to retain my belief in the BOM and refused baptism into the Baptist church, I certainly wouldn't be considered a Baptist to those who actually are no matter how vehemently I declared myself as such, now would I?

Calady is right--Christianity is a broader umbrella encompassing all followers of Christ. You can't worship Buddha as God and call yourself a Christian, now can you? Mormonism is a very specific brand of Christianity, it is absolutely and exclusively synonymous with being LDS, and it in no way involves polygamy or any other practice that has been forbidden and/or discontinued.

Big Love is a show that is using confusion and misinformation in order to produce provacative programming and garner big viewer turnouts and high ratings. It might be subtle, but they are well aware of what they are doing, I can assure you.

[terri910]

Big Love is a show that is using confusion and misinformation in order to produce provacative programming and garner big viewer turnouts and high ratings. It might be subtle, but they are well aware of what they are doing, I can assure you.
I'm interested in what things in the show you believe is using confusion and misinformation to get ratings.

There were real specific things that were cited when Dan Brown's The Da Vinci Code came out. I've watched the show (not religiously -- no pun intended -- just whenever I happen to be awake and the show is on) and really have not seen all that much about LDS....everything I've seen truly does center on the beliefs of the polygamists. Maybe it's just because I know enough about the LDS Church from my Mormon friends here at Hannity, but I've never thought any of that was about the LDS Church.

[PaleoPaul]

MrC said:

I think its currently the best show on TV personally, but then again, I'm not a mormon.
Nip/Tuck dude...Nip/Tuck.

[coMITTed]

I'm interested in what things in the show you believe is using confusion and misinformation to get ratings.

There were real specific things that were cited when Dan Brown's The Da Vinci Code came out. I've watched the show (not religiously -- no pun intended -- just whenever I happen to be awake and the show is on) and really have not seen all that much about LDS....everything I've seen truly does center on the beliefs of the polygamists. Maybe it's just because I know enough about the LDS Church from my Mormon friends here at Hannity, but I've never thought any of that was about the LDS Church.

The key there is that you know enough about the Church to know that the characters of Big Love and their TV beliefs are not in any way affiliated with it. There are far more people out there who don't know this, or they may be told otherwise by friends/family/preachers, and then they see a show like Big Love, and it "confirms" their misunderstandings.

[coMITTed]

MrC said:


Nip/Tuck dude...Nip/Tuck.

No way, man. Lost rules!

[kaziah]

MrC said:


Nip/Tuck dude...Nip/Tuck.

Agreed! The next season should be interesting.

[Old Tex]

Well, someone has to document his badness. I hear Chuck Norris watches and takes notes.

Ever time I see Chuck Norris, I think of Homer Simpson. Maybe it's the four day beard.

[Harmonious]

No way.. Man vs Wild is the best, hands down. Man vs. Wild home page..click here (http://dsc.discovery.com/fansites/manvswild/manvswild.html)
No, CSI: Miami is the best.

[SarahG]

I wonder what the mortgage is on those "upscale suburban" homes. $250k, $350k, higher? And he had 3? :faints:

In the show, Henrickson owns a small chain of successful retail stores. He can afford it.

[Andrew_980]

My only issue with polygamy is that it is often linked to welfare, i say if you can support them all (like hefner) then good for you but i hate couples with a single child leeching off our taxes.

[terri910]

The key there is that you know enough about the Church to know that the characters of Big Love and their TV beliefs are not in any way affiliated with it. There are far more people out there who don't know this, or they may be told otherwise by friends/family/preachers, and then they see a show like Big Love, and it "confirms" their misunderstandings.
Faint comfort, perhaps, but at least they aren't actually trying to present it as the LDS Church (like Dan Brown did with the Catholic Church), even if some people mistake it for that.

And, of course, you'll get people telling you "it's only fiction" and that you're over-reacting and being silly, blah, blah, blah.

But I understand what you're saying, because us Catholics have been there.

[coMITTed]

Faint comfort, perhaps, but at least they aren't actually trying to present it as the LDS Church (like Dan Brown did with the Catholic Church), even if some people mistake it for that.

And, of course, you'll get people telling you "it's only fiction" and that you're over-reacting and being silly, blah, blah, blah.

But I understand what you're saying, because us Catholics have been there.

Yeah, I remember reading the Code thinking what an awesome story it was at first. Then it occured to me how much anti-Catholic sentiment it contained and it didn't seem very fair at all. But I think it was simultaneously targeting Christianity in general, b/c most Christians accept the Nicene creed as doctrine.

I suppose if anyone knows what it's like to be (mis)represented in today's media/entertainment industry, it's the Catholics alright.

[rory]

How many times do we have to go through this? :rolleyes: The term "Mormon" is a nickname for members of the LDS Church--not offshoots, not polygamist sects, not people who believe the BOM but won't commit to baptism (I'm not including people who can't be baptized, for whatever reason, here--only those who can but won't). If I decided I wanted to be a Baptist but wanted to retain my belief in the BOM and refused baptism into the Baptist church, I certainly wouldn't be considered a Baptist to those who actually are no matter how vehemently I declared myself as such, now would I?

Calady is right--Christianity is a broader umbrella encompassing all followers of Christ. You can't worship Buddha as God and call yourself a Christian, now can you? Mormonism is a very specific brand of Christianity, it is absolutely and exclusively synonymous with being LDS, and it in no way involves polygamy or any other practice that has been forbidden and/or discontinued.

Big Love is a show that is using confusion and misinformation in order to produce provacative programming and garner big viewer turnouts and high ratings. It might be subtle, but they are well aware of what they are doing, I can assure you.
There are a lot of followers of the Book of Mormon, some are pretty scary and do practice polygamy, some like the Community of Christ are pretty mainstream with 1/4 million members.
One thing most of them have in common is that they say they are the true followers of Joseph Smith.
There are some pretty rich businessmen in Utah that have accumulated a lot of money, some have become policemen, lawyers, doctors and other type professionals which you wouldn't know were polygamists.
Some of the things these people do are just creepy, not too glamorous at all but some things that I have seen in the show are somewhat authentic.
I used to spend time in Utah and knew a few polygamists.
The LDS Church goes to great lengths to seperate themselves from these folks and they don't condone that lifestyle at all anymore but they can't just treat the subject as they never had anything to do with it.

[Ron Jon]

There are a lot of followers of the Book of Mormon, some are pretty scary and do practice polygamy, some like the Community of Christ are pretty mainstream with 1/4 million members.
One thing most of them have in common is that they say they are the true followers of Joseph Smith.
There are some pretty rich businessmen in Utah that have accumulated a lot of money, some have become policemen, lawyers, doctors and other type professionals which you wouldn't know were polygamists.
Some of the things these people do are just creepy, not too glamorous at all but some things that I have seen in the show are somewhat authentic.
I used to spend time in Utah and knew a few polygamists.
The LDS Church goes to great lengths to seperate themselves from these folks and they don't condone that lifestyle at all anymore but they can't just treat the subject as they never had anything to do with it.Anyone who believes in the Book of Mormon is a "Mormon" as far as I'm concerned. But I can understand why comitted wouldn't want to be associated with those other Mormon groups since it does cause some confusion over the whole which church is the "only true church" claim.

[kaziah]

How many times do we have to go through this? :rolleyes: The term "Mormon" is a nickname for members of the LDS Church--not offshoots, not polygamist sects, not people who believe the BOM but won't commit to baptism.

Any person that believes in the BoM or belongs to a church that claims its roots came from Joseph Smith knows this. Originally, the saints did not like this nickname at all.

[kaziah]

There are a lot of followers of the Book of Mormon, some are pretty scary and do practice polygamy, some like the Community of Christ are pretty mainstream with 1/4 million members.

That is a misleading statement. It could lead people to believe that some in the CoC practice polygamy, which the church would not tolerate. If there are any than it is w/o the church knowing it.

[Ron Jon]

Any person that believes in the BoM or belongs to a church that claims its roots came from Joseph Smith knows this. Originally, the saints did not like this nickname at all.Excuse me Kaziah, but the followers of Brigham Young do not have a monopoly on the name "Mormon". Anyone who believes in the book of Mormon can call themselves a "Mormon" if they want. And besides, the name "Mormon" was used by non-Mormons to describe the people who believed in this book.

[kaziah]

Excuse me Kaziah, but the followers of Brigham Young do not have a monopoly on the name "Mormon". Anyone who believes in the book of Mormon can call themselves a "Mormon" if they want. And besides, the name "Mormon" was used by non-Mormons to describe the people who believed in this book.


I'm well aware of the history of the nickname. And what I meant was that any believer in the BoM or a member of a church that claims its roots came from Smith agree that the term 'mormon' describes the LDS church, not any of the others.

You can view it any way you want. I'm just telling you what people in those faiths actually think.

[Ron Jon]

I'm well aware of the history of the nickname. And what I meant was that any believer in the BoM or a member of a church that claims its roots came from Smith agree that the term 'mormon' describes the LDS church, not any of the others.

You can view it any way you want. I'm just telling you what people in those faiths actually think.Are you a "Mormon"?

[kaziah]

By your definition, not mine.

[Ron Jon]

By your definition, not mine.So you believe in the Book of Mormon. So why would you not want to be called a "Mormon"? If you don't accept that description of what you believe, then tell me what church you are a member of. Do you believe Joseph Smith was a prophet of God?

[AmericanCitizen]

from what I gather from my LDS friends, there are basically three branches of LDS.....the LDS, the FLDS (?fundamental LDS) and the RLDS (?reformed LDS) and the polygamists are in the FLDS branch, and mostly live up in St George area in Utah. My LDS friends don't know any polygamists and are adamant that the LDS church does not condone polygamy, but mainstream America thinks polygamy and Mormonism are one in the same.

[kaziah]

So you believe in the Book of Mormon. So why would you not want to be called a "Mormon"? If you don't accept that description of what you believe, then tell me what church you are a member of. Do you believe Joseph Smith was a prophet of God?

I guess I could understand being called that if the BoM was the only source of scripture that I believe it, excluding the bible, but it isn't. Yes, I believe he was a prophet. I'm fundamental RLDS.

[kaziah]

RLDS actually stands for Reorganized not reformed. If there is a Reformed LDS I would be interested in hearing about them.

[Ron Jon]

I guess I could understand being called that if the BoM was the only source of scripture that I believe it, excluding the bible, but it isn't. Yes, I believe he was a prophet. I'm fundamental RLDS.Is that the same as the Community of Christ?

[kaziah]

from what I gather from my LDS friends, there are basically three branches of LDS.....the LDS, the FLDS (?fundamental LDS) and the RLDS (?reformed LDS) and the polygamists are in the FLDS branch, and mostly live up in St George area in Utah.

These are the ones I can think of off the top of my head that claims roots to Smith;

LDS, FLDS, FRLDS or restoration RLDS, CoC, Remnant Church, Hedrikites

Thats all I can think of right now.

[Ron Jon]

from what I gather from my LDS friends, there are basically three branches of LDS.....the LDS, the FLDS (?fundamental LDS) and the RLDS (?reformed LDS) and the polygamists are in the FLDS branch, and mostly live up in St George area in Utah. My LDS friends don't know any polygamists and are adamant that the LDS church does not condone polygamy, but mainstream America thinks polygamy and Mormonism are one in the same.Have you ever read the Mormon scriptures known as the Doctrine & Covenants? If you haven't please feel free to read Section 132 which is in their current edition.

http://scriptures.lds.org/en/dc/132

And then tell me they don't "condone polygamy".

[kaziah]

Is that the same as the Community of Christ?

No.

[rory]

That is a misleading statement. It could lead people to believe that some in the CoC practice polygamy, which the church would not tolerate. If there are any than it is w/o the church knowing it.
It could also lead them to think they are pretty mainstream like I meant it.

[kaziah]

Have you ever read the Mormon scriptures known as the Doctrine & Covenants? If you haven't please feel free to read Section 132 which is in their current edition.

http://scriptures.lds.org/en/dc/132

And then tell me they don't "condone polygamy".

There must be an update, a later section, because that was done away with in 1871, if I remember right.

[Ron Jon]

These are the ones I can think of off the top of my head that claims roots to Smith;

LDS, FLDS, FRLDS or restoration RLDS, CoC, Remnant Church, Hedrikites

Thats all I can think of right now.http://www.mormondenominations.com/forum/ may help.

[kaziah]

It could also lead them to think they are pretty mainstream like I meant it.

Yes, they are but have nothing to do with polygamy. I just didn't want people to read your statement and take it the worng way.

[kaziah]

http://www.mormondenominations.com/forum/ may help.


Can't believe I forgot the Church of Christ, which we all call the Temple Lot Church.

[Ron Jon]

There must be an update, a later section, because that was done away with in 1871, if I remember right.
I never said it wasn't "done away with". Rather, I was talking about how the doctrine is still contained within their own "scriptures" and that it has never been removed. They may not condone the current practice of polygamy, but they seem to approve of it when it was practiced by the early Latter-day Saints in the 19th century.

[kaziah]

I never said it wasn't "done away with". Rather, I was talking about how the doctrine is still contained within their own "scriptures" and that it has never been removed. They may not condone the current practice of polygamy, but they seem to approve of it when it was practiced by the early Latter-day Saints in the 19th century.

And my understanding is, any LDS members in here correct me if I am wrong, they believe it will be reinstated some day.

[Ron Jon]

No.Thanks for the clarification. Were the FRLDS associated with the RLDS prior to the renaming of the RLDS church to Community of Christ?

[kaziah]

Thanks for the clarification. Were the FRLDS associated with the RLDS prior to the renaming of the RLDS church to Community of Christ?

Most left in 1984 when they made it doctrine at world conference to ordain women into the priesthood. Many did leave after the name change, though.

[Ron Jon]

Most left in 1984 when they made it doctrine at world conference to ordain women into the priesthood. Many did leave after the name change, though.Does your church have an official website yet? I'd like to learn more about it.

[kaziah]

Does your church have an official website yet? I'd like to learn more about it.

No, all the fundamental (or restoration) branches are independent so there isn't a president or a headquarters to do stuff like that.

[Ron Jon]

No, all the fundamental (or restoration) branches are independent so there isn't a president or a headquarters to do stuff like that.That's interesting. Seems to be a departure from the original church Joseph Smith founded. If each branch is independent of the others then how do you trace your line of authority back to Joseph Smith?

[kaziah]

That's interesting. Seems to be a departure from the original church Joseph Smith founded. If each branch is independent of the others then how do you trace your line of authority back to Joseph Smith?


Looong story. Part of it is that when branches split from the CoC the CoC locked the church doors so people who wouldn't follow them had no place to attend. They were scattered for a time but pretty much all own their own buildings now. Also, when we split there was no longer a headquarters, president or prophet for us because they followed the CoC. According to what Smith taught, the president and prophet comes through the line of lineage, a Smith. All members can, trace their baptism and ordination back to Smith. Meaning Smith baptized/ordained so & so, then that person baptized/ordained so & so, etc. Not to mention, that it was Smith's son, Joseph III, that reorganized the church (RLDS) in 1860.

[kaziah]

Anyway, we've gotten way off topic. I'm off to bed. Have a good night, Ron Jon.

[Ron Jon]

According to what Smith taught, the president and prophet comes through the line of lineage, a Smith. All members can, trace their baptism and ordination back to Smith. Meaning Smith baptized/ordained so & so, then that person baptized/ordained so & so, etc. Not to mention, that it was Smith's son, Joseph III, that reorganized the church (RLDS) in 1860.My understanding is that currently there are no more male descendants of Joseph Smith Jr. So, if your church is without a prophet/president to lead it, what do you do? Who holds the "keys" or fulness of the priesthood authority? Are they lost and are in need of a new restoration?

[Ron Jon]

Anyway, we've gotten way off topic. I'm off to bed. Have a good night, Ron Jon.Good night, sorry to keep you up so late.

[KimYoungHo]

LDS'ers..what do you think about it? Does is accurately reflect the lives of some of the off-shoot sects of Mormonism? Or do you not know/care?


I have no idea if it accurately reflects their lives or not. I've heard rumors that some polygamists think parts of the show are laughable while other parts are on target. As to which is which, you would have to ask them.

As far as the show itself goes, I watch it. I haven't found anything in the subject material to take major umbrage with. It could do without the occasionaly nudity, which ruins the show for syndication, TBS will never pick it up like it did with Sex and the City. They could of course edit it, but as often as not redacting it will delete key plot points.

[coMITTed]

I have no idea if it accurately reflects their lives or not. I've heard rumors that some polygamists think parts of the show are laughable while other parts are on target. As to which is which, you would have to ask them.

As far as the show itself goes, I watch it. I haven't found anything in the subject material to take major umbrage with. It could do without the occasionaly nudity, which ruins the show for syndication, TBS will never pick it up like it did with Sex and the City. They could of course edit it, but as often as not redacting it will delete key plot points.

I dunno 'bout that. Sex and the City gets edited on TBS to the point where episodes are all but unrecognizable with many key plot points done away with for time and editings' sakes.

[KimYoungHo]

I'd say you'd have to be pretty well off and/or extremely financially stable to support that many wives and children. I haven't seen the show, but do the wives also work or do they stay at home and take care of all the children? I can see an advantage to the family unit if some of the wives worked and brought in additional income.

As the show Big Love progressed the first wife went to work, which caused some contention with the second wife.

In 19th century polygamous families it was not at all unusual to have some wives working professionally and others working at home. In the latter 19th century Utah had a large per capita quantity of female doctors and lawyers and compared to the rest of the country had a generally better educated female population (much to the consternation of some who thought otherwise, expecially since the result was that Utah was a leader in the women's suffrage movement). It was not at all unusual for one wife to head off to the schools of the East while the husbandsd and other wife stayed home to tend to the family. As a result SOME (not all) families amassed considerable wealth. Those who capitalized on the economic opportunities it afforded did very well.

Most, but not all, modern polygamists are for the most part the opposite. The women are usually discouraged from higher education and the lifstyle is secretive. Money is short and conditions are very hard. Only the core leaders have any wealth at all. One modern polygamous group called the Kingston clan is well known for capitalizing on the economic opportunities. Its also developed its own infamy for the all controlling nature of its leaders.



ETA a humorous if not slightly lubricious quip: One day while we were discussing how hard it must have been to practice polygamy one of my LDS cow-orkers made the comment "I would sure hate to have to live the principle of polygamy, but I sure wouldn't mind practicing it."

[KimYoungHo]

On the question of what makes a Mormon:

Many of my fellow LDS would limit it to members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. Now I would agree that "The Mormon Church" is the same thing as "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints" and that a fundamentalist Mormon is a member of the "Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints" because they follow the fundamental church by embracing continuing revelation. But does a Mormon have to be a member of The Mormon Church, ie, the LDS church?

See, a member of the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (FLDS) would take issue with my reason why a member of the LDS church is a fundamentalist while a member of the FLDS is not a fundamentalist, despite the name.

It was insinuated that a Mormon would have to believe in the Book of Mormon. But I know LDS members who believe it to be historical and others who believe it to be alegorical. Both can be called Mormons. Members of the Community of Christ Church are followers of Joseph Smith and some of them take the Book of Mormon litterally and others take it figuratively. The CoC is the second largest of the various sects of Mormonism, but it believes in a triune godhead (which some EVs will say makes it non-Mormon - go figgure). Some CoC members don't idenfity with being Mormon, some do.

There are litterally hundreds of off shoots of Mormonism. Only a handful are of any size, notably (in order of approximate size), LDS, CoC, The Church of Jesus Christ Bickertonite, FLDS - polygamist, RLDS (reformed from a break with the CoC, United Apostolic Brotherhood - polygamous, Church of Christ Temple Lot.

It any of them want to call their faith mormonism thats fine with me, just make the distinction between it and 'The Mormon Church' because that is almost universally associated with the LDS church.

Next post I'll post a list of them all. Its too long for this post.

[KimYoungHo]

Here is a list of them all. Its long but it gives you an idea.
Pure Church of Christ (Wyman Clark) 1831
John Noah 1831
The Independent Church 1832
Church of Christ (Ezra Booth) 1836
Church of Christ (Warren Parrish) 1837
Isaac Russell 1838
The Church of Jesus Christ, the Bride, The Lamb’s Wife (Hinkle) 1840
Oliver Olney 1842
Church of Christ (Hyrum Page) 1842
Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (F. G. Bishop) 1842?
True Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (Law, Foster, Higbee) 1844
Church of Christ (Chubby) 1840’s
Church of Christ/Church of Jesus Christ of the Children of Zion (Sidney Rigdon) 1844
Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (Emmett) 1844?
John E. Page 1844
Church of Christ (Stoddard, Rich, Bump) 1845
Indian Mormon 1846
Church of Christ ( W. McLellin, D. Whitmer) 1847
*Church of Christ (D. Whitmer) 1875
Samuel James, George M. Hinkle 1847
Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (William Smith) 1847
Congregation of Jehovah’s Presbytery of Zion (Thompson 1848
Church of Christ (Brewster) 1848
Lorenzo D. Oatman 1848
Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (Wright) 1849
Austin Cowles 1849
Samuel C. Brown 1849
Elijah Schwackhammer 1849
The Bride, The Lamb’s Wife or Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (Syfritt) 1850
Moses R. Norris 1851
Church of Christ (Aldrich) 1851
George Hickenlooper 1854
Church of Christ (Brooks) 1850’s
The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (Strang) 1844
Reuben Miller 1846
Church of Christ ( Aaron Smith) 1846
Increase M. VanDeusen 1847
Church of the Messiah (Adams) 1861
Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (Strangite)(Albert Norman Ketchum) 1924
Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (Strangite) (Drew) 1952
Holy Church of Jesus Christ (Caffiaux) 1964
House of Ephraim and House of Manasseh of the Church of Jesus
Christ of Latter Day Saints (Sheppard) 1970
The True Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (Roberts) 1974
Marriage Counseling Group 1978
Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (Hajicek) ?
Strangite Believers in Pennsylvania ?
The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Brigham Young) 1847
George Miller 1847
Arnold Potter 1850
Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (Gibson) 1861
Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints or Church of the First Born (Morris) 1861
The Prophet Cainen or Church of Jesus Christ of the Most High God (Williams) 1862
Morrisite Group (Livingston) 1864
William Davis 1861
Church of Zion (Godbe) 1868
Church of the First Born (Dove) 1874
Barnet Moses Giles 1875
Church of Jesus Christ of the Saints of the Most High God (Guhl) 1870’s
Church of Jesus Christ of the Saints of the Most High God (James) 1884
Church of Jesus Christ of the Saints of the Most High God (Thompson) 1888
Priesthood Groups (Fundamentalists) 1890
James Brighouse 1887
John Koyle 1894
Church of the First Born (Israel Dennis) 1895
Josiah Hickman 1900
Lars Peterson 1900
Nathaniel Baldwin 1903
Samuel Eastman 1904
John Tanner Clark 1905
Hannah Sorenson 1906
United Order of Equality (Peterson) 1909
Moses Gudmendsen 1918
Paul Feil 1928
LDS Depression Movement 1930
Davis County Co-op Society (Kingston) 1935
The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, Third Convention (Paez) 1936
The Church of Jesus Christ of Israel ( Sherwood) 1936
Church of Jesus of Latter Day Saints (Margarito Bautista) 1936
Benjamin T. LaBaron 1938
Order of Aaron (Glendinning) 1943
Church of Freedom of Latter Day Saints 1950’s
Zion’s Order of the Sons of Levi (Kilgore) 1951
Annalee Skarin 1952
The Church of the Firstborn of the Fulness of Times (Joel F. LeBaron) 1955
The Church of the Firstborn (Ross W. LeBaron) 1955
United Outcasts of Israel, American Indian Restoration
Enterprises, Praetorian Press (Pratt) 1958
Perfected Church of Jesus Christ of Immaculate Latter Day Saints (Conway) 1958
Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (Forsgren) 1960
Paul Solem 1960
Church of Jesus Christ (Goldman) 1960’s
Divine Word Foundation (Hans N. VonKorber) 1965
Bruce David Longo 1965
LDS Scripture Researchers/Believe God Society (Lloyd) 1965
The Church of the Body and of the Spirit of Jesus Christ (Powers) 1965
United Order of the Saints of Guadeloupe (Gamiette) 1966
United Order of the Family of Christ (Desmond) 1966
Split from Zion’s Order of the Sons of Levi (Taylor) 1969
Homosexual Church of Jesus Christ, Denver, Colorado 1972
Latter Day Saints Church (Park) 1972
The Church of the Lamb of God (Ervil M. LaBaron) 1972
The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (Krupenia) 1972
The New Jerusalem Group (Kathryn Carter) 1972
The Watchmen on the Towers of Latter Day Israel (Braun) 1973
Monte Scovill 1973
Church of Jesus Christ in Solemn Assembly (Alexander Joseph) 1974
Evangelical Church of Christ, Church of the New Covenant in Christ (Bryant) 1974
Split from Zion’s Order of the Sons of Levi (Kilgore 1975
Affirmation 1975
Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (Simons) 1975
Church of the Firstborn of the Fulness of Times (Wakeham 1975
Church of the Firstborn of the Fulness of Times ( Alma LeBaron) 1976
Aaronic Order Break-off 1977
Christ’s Church, Inc. (Peterson) 1978
Church of Jesus Christ (Bulla) 1978
The Restorers or School of the Prophets (Crossfield) 1979
Zion’s First International Church (LeeAnn Walker) 1980
The Free Will Mormon Church (Coleman) 1980
Aryan Christian Church (Hayden, Idaho) 1980
Church of Jesus Christ (Mora) 1981
Sons Ahman Israel (David Israel) 1981
Samoan LDS Church, New Zealand 1981
The Millennial Church of Jesus Christ (Evoniuk) 1981
Peyote Way Church of God (Trujillo) 1981?
The Church of Jesus Christ of the Saints in Zion (Thackston) 1982
The Church of Jesus Christ of the Saints in Zion (Asay) 1984
Break from the Church of Jesus Christ in Solemn Assembly 1984
The Company or The Sisterhood (Arvin Shreeve) 1984
Lafferty Group (Ron and Dan Lafferty) 1984
Work of Better Truth (Peterson) 1984
Gilbert Jordan 1985
Church of Jesus Christ of All Latter-day Saints or
Restoration Church of Jesus Christ (Feliz) 1985
Church of Christ of Latter-day Saints (Madison) 1985
Church of Christ the Firstborn of the Fulness of Times (Widmar) 1985
Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints Fundamentalists (Wright Family) 1985?
School of the Prophets (Archie Dean Wood) 1986
Mormon Fundamentalists, England (Munn) 1986?
The Ensign Corporation (Miller) 1986
Church of Jesus Christ Omnipotent 1987
Community of Zion, Central Utah Division (Miner) ?
LeRoy Wilson ?
Alonzo Langford ?
Church of the First Born, General Assembly ?
The Church of Jesus Christ (Cutler) 1953
Church of Jesus Christ (Fletcher) 1953
The Restored Church of Jesus Christ (Walton) 1979
The Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints 1851
Henry Harrison Deam 1854
The Church of Christ, the Order of Zion (Zahnd) 1918
The Church of Jesus Christ (Williams) 1925
World Redemption (Fuller) 1969
Church of Jesus Christ Restored (King) 1970
Loyal Opposition (Liggett) 1970
New Jerusalem Church of Jesus Christ (Fuller) 1976
Church of Christ Restored (Fishel) 1976
True Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (Toney) 1980
Church of the Restoration or Churches of Christ in Zion (Chambers) 1981
Joseph T. Long 1983
Lamanite Ministries for Christ or New Covenant Ministries for Christ 1984
Restoration Branches Movement 1984
Church of Jesus Christ, the Lamb of God (Abramson) 1985
Church of Jesus Christ, Zion’s Branch (Cato) 1986
Church of Christ (Clark) 1986
Independent Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (Warren) 1986
Native Indian Church ?
The Church of Jesus Christ (Bickerton) 1862
George Barnes 1873
Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ (Wright) 1907
Primitive Church of Jesus Christ (Caldwell) 1914
Church of Christ (Temple Lot) (Hedrick 1863
Church of Christ, Independent, Informal, (Wipper) 1927
The Church of Christ (Fetting) 1929
Church of Christ (Ely) 1929
Church of Christ (Humphrey) 1929
Church of Christ (Trapp) 1930
Church of Christ (Restored) (DeWolf) 1936
Church of Christ (E.E. Long and Nerren) 1936
Church of Christ (Hilgendorf) 1942
The Church of Christ with the Elijah Message (Draves) 1946
Floyd Denham Group ?
Church of Christ (Pauline Han****) 1946
Antarctica Development Interests or the New American’s Mount Zion (Leabo) 1955
Church of Christ (E.E. Long) 1960
Church of Christ (Leighton-Floyd, Burt) 1965
Church of Christ at Zion’s Retreat (Hall) 1973
The Church of Israel (Gayman) 1973
Stephen Brown 1979
Break from the Church of Christ (Han****) (in Michigan) 1973
Church of Christ With the Elijah Message (Rogers) 1975
The Church of Christ, Restored Gospel 1929
Then reorganized again in 1985
The True and Living Church of Jesus Christ of Saint of the Last Days
(James Harmston) 1994
Fraternity of Preparation ?

INDEPENDENTS
Hubert John Archambault
Clark E. Callear
D.T. Chapman
Francis M. Darter
Charlotte Elam / Catherine Pico
Gilbert A. Fulton,Jr
George T. Harrison
C.J. Hunt
Paul Johnson
Price W. Johnson
Thomas John Jordan
Ogden Kraut
O. E. LaPoint
Gladys Barr Lloyd
Joseph Luff
B.L. McKim
D.J. Morgan
Ernest W. Ninnis
Arch S. Reynolds
Henry W. Richards
David A. Richardson
James R. Snell
Lawrence Ritchie Stubbs
C.A. Swenson
Dalton A. Tiffin
Samuel Wood
James Elmer Yates

Divergent Paths of the Restoration Steven L. Shields

[kaziah]

I wonder what the churches are that are listed as a man's name (George Barnes 1873 & Stephen Brown 1979) in your first list.

[kaziah]

RLDS (reformed from a break with the CoC....

We aren't really reformed, we just didn't go along with the changes the CoC made. We stayed the same and didn't follow the heads of the church.

[kaziah]

kimyoungho,

The list of independents, what is that supposed to mean exactly? I'm wondering because Joseph Luff is on the list and he was a big part of the RLDS, not an independent himself or of a off-shoot.

[kaziah]

And, are all thos churches listed with the exact same name supposed to actually be different churches from one another?

[Old Tex]

Since the conversation on this thread had turned to plural marriage, and the LDS Church is always the one that gets "lumps" (usually from the evangelical folks) when iplural marriage is brought up, I'm pasting in something below that I ran across this morning. I am considering using it to set up a new thread and seeing where it goes. It says in the article that "Christian Polygamy is not Mormon Polygamy"", but I'm not sure just what that means.
-----------------------

The Christian Polygamy "Movement"

The coming together of conservative, evanglical, Scripture-based Christians, from so many different denominational backgrounds, has formed into a real social "movement", unto now directly seeking to bring the Scriptural truth of Christian Polygamy to the Churches.

It is profoundly significant that this is mostly all with and by conservative Christians. (Christian Polygamy is not Mormon Polygamy.) That is, because of this significant fact that this is with and by conservative Christians, Christian Polygamy can not be dismissed as if merely libertine or as if only a matter of "tolerance" dogma of liberal denominations of Christianity. Indeed, that significant fact demonstrates the genuine reality that Christian Polygamy is clearly only a matter of believing the Scriptures, believing what the Scriptures actually say and have always actually said...

And that's why and how Christian Polygamy has become a growing and unstoppable social "movement".


http://www.christianpolygamy.info/movement/

[Steve Rogers]

great show.. started watching it last year. It does a good job of exposing the pros and cons within a family engaged in the practice without being judgemental. It is very judgemental of the Colorado city type compounds though.

[Sanity]

Big Love is a show that is using confusion and misinformation in order to produce provacative programming and garner big viewer turnouts and high ratings. It might be subtle, but they are well aware of what they are doing, I can assure you.

Have you actually seen the show? The series is very clear on showing that these families are not members of LDS church. There is nothing misleading towards the church. And HBO doesn't attempt to be subtle. Watch "Angels In America" sometime and tell me if those aren't actual Mormon garments that the characters are wearing.

HBO recently did two small specials for the show where they interview a few polygamists along with John Lewellyn, Dorothy Allred Solomon and Marianne Watson.

Having watched the series from the beginning, I can honestly say nothing from the show has cast a negative light on the LDS church. It's simply a show about a polygamist family living in the modern world.

[KimYoungHo]

I wonder what the churches are that are listed as a man's name (George Barnes 1873 & Stephen Brown 1979) in your first list.

The list was taken from Divergent Paths of the Restoration by Steven L. Shields as noted in the note at the end of the list. I admit that there are several on the list that I am entirely unfamiliar with. The ones listed under individual men are groups or congregations that split from some branch of mormonism or another - not all adopted a name and not every branch on the list exists now, many of them faded away. In the absence of an organizational name they are listed under the name of the man who they followed. These are notable break offs, not individuals or groups of two or three who left.

[Polkfan]

No they are not. Many have never even been LDS (or Mormon). Practicing polygamy will get you excommunicated, making you a former Mormon.

Only because the feds forced Mormons to stop multiple marriage as a requirement for statehood.

[coMITTed]

Only because the feds forced Mormons to stop multiple marriage as a requirement for statehood.

Not true. The feds didn't force the Church to do anything. Statehood was stipulated upon the renouncement of polygamy, but if it had been God's will, I'm sure the Church could have happily continued with the practice in the Utah Territory. For whatever reason, the time and need for polygamy had passed, statehood was more important for the progress of Church and its members, and the practice was rescended. Families who were still living in polygamous relationships were sent to Mexico and Canada where they could live without being torn apart, but the performance of new plural marriages ceased and desisted upon penalty of excommunication.

[Polkfan]

O please. They just happen to decide polygamy wasn't the way to go when they were told they had to choose between polygamy and statehood? They chose political quickness over the feel-good route.

[HokieCougarVandal]

Yeah, that's what it was. They decided to get into the politcal game over their established "routine" because they saw how beneficial it would be to have the US government look out for their interests.:)) :)) :))

[Fire Watch]

Season 1 is on HBO On Demand.

[LoneStarHero]

HBO sort of missed the boat on timing with the Texas compound thing.

Is there anything good on HBO now?

The John Adams series is over and Bill Maher is off until August. There has to be something redeeming before August.

[PaleoPaul]

I've watched a bit.

The main character's a pretty cool actor and the plot's kinda entertaining, so its ok to watch from time to time.

[Fire Watch]

HBO sort of missed the boat on timing with the Texas compound thing.
Maybe not, the new season doesnt start for a while..it may be factored into the writting.

[Fire Watch]

This season is very interesting.

I have a question I want to pose to the LDS members regarding homosexuals and marriage that stems from last weeks episode.

[Ron Jon]

I've never seen the show (cuz I ain't got cable). Is it available on DVD?

[Gem]

Isn't this kind of life against the laws of the land ?


I mean, a man having more than one wife at a time.

[noelle12]

This season is very interesting.

I have a question I want to pose to the LDS members regarding homosexuals and marriage that stems from last weeks episode.

I've never seen the show.

I was reading some earlier posts in this thread, and was thinking about the question posed regarding non-LDS believers of the Book of Mormon being referred to as Mormons. It is an interesting question. We LDS have been specifically instructed by our leaders in Salt Lake City to not refer to ourselves as Mormons. It's a pretty hard habit to break, though. My only real concern about it, and it is pretty minor really, is most people think of Mormons as LDS, and when another religious group is referred to as Mormons, it can be confusing to people who are not familiar with the issue. It leads to people having incorrect understandings about the LDS church.

[Ron Jon]

I've never seen the show.

I was reading some earlier posts in this thread, and was thinking about the question posed regarding non-LDS believers of the Book of Mormon being referred to as Mormons. It is an interesting question. We LDS have been specifically instructed by our leaders in Salt Lake City to not refer to ourselves as Mormons. It's a pretty hard habit to break, though. My only real concern about it, and it is pretty minor really, is most people think of Mormons as LDS, and when another religious group is referred to as Mormons, it can be confusing to people who are not familiar with the issue. It leads to people having incorrect understandings about the LDS church.See, that's the thing. We (non-LDS Christians) don't have a monopoly on the word "Christian". So, we can't stop you from using that word to describe yourselves. By the same token, The LDS Church (HQ'd in SLC) doesn't have a monopoly on the word "Mormon" and therefore can't stop people from referring to believers in the Book of Mormon as "Mormons" (or for that matter as "LDS" since I'm sure they consider themselves "Latter Day Saints" in the general sense) even though they may not be officially members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints HQ'd in SLC, Utah.

[noelle12]

See, that's the thing. We (non-LDS Christians) don't have a monopoly on the word "Christian". So, we can't stop you from using that word to describe yourselves. By the same token, The LDS Church (HQ'd in SLC) doesn't have a monopoly on the word "Mormon" and therefore can't stop people from referring to believers in the Book of Mormon as "Mormons" (or for that matter as "LDS" since I'm sure they consider themselves "Latter Day Saints" in the general sense) even though they may not be officially members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints HQ'd in SLC, Utah.

Remember how I said that we (LDS) have been instructed by our leaders in SLC to not refer to ourselves as Mormons?

[Ron Jon]

That's one of the problems with the word "Christian". It doesn't really accurately describe what a "follower of Christ" really is. A "Moonie" can claim to be a "Christian". A Jehovah's Witness can claim to be a "Christian". A Mormon can claim to be a "Christian". And yet, none of the above mentioned groups believe the same thing about God and Christ. So, how can you all be "followers of Christ"?

[noelle12]

That's one of the problems with the word "Christian". It doesn't really accurately describe what a "follower of Christ" really is. A "Moonie" can claim to be a "Christian". A Jehovah's Witness can claim to be a "Christian". A Mormon can claim to be a "Christian". And yet, none of the above mentioned groups believe the same thing about God and Christ. So, how can you all be "followers of Christ"?

A mystery for the ages.

[Ron Jon]

Remember how I said that we (LDS) have been instructed by our leaders in SLC to not refer to ourselves as Mormons?I haven't seen a LDS commercial in awhile, but I do remember they had the little subtitle that said "this message brought to you by the Mormons". Or something to that affect. I guess they don't do that anymore?

[noelle12]

I haven't seen a LDS commercial in awhile, but I do remember they had the little subtitle that said "this message brought to you by the Mormons". Or something to that affect. I guess they don't do that anymore?

I couldn't say for sure. Like I said before, it is a hard habit to break.

[Ron Jon]

I couldn't say for sure. Like I said before, it is a hard habit to break.
Sung to the tune "Hard Habit to Break"? :mrgreen:

[Snagglepuss]

So are you going to ask your question FW?

[gpd®]

This season is very interesting.

I have a question I want to pose to the LDS members regarding homosexuals and marriage that stems from last weeks episode.

I saw that episode, interesting practice if true. Gays somewhat forced to marry straight people to assure their salvation.

[Fire Watch]

I've never seen the show (cuz I ain't got cable). Is it available on DVD?
I'm not sure. You can find it online though.

[Fire Watch]

So are you going to ask your question FW?
Gimme a minute..wasnt online. Was spending time with the kids before coming in to work...isnt it about....time? ;)

[Fire Watch]

This season is very interesting.

I have a question I want to pose to the LDS members regarding homosexuals and marriage that stems from last weeks episode.


Ok, so the unmarried teen daughter of the main character (the polygamist) is pregnant. To her credit, she decides to put the child up for adoption instead of abortion.

She finds an LDS family looking to adopt through an online service..and agrees to do a "meet and greet" with the couple to get to know them, feel them out, ect.

During the meeting, the husband reveals that he is a homosexual, and infers that the LDS church encouraged him to marry. He states that he is a non-practicing homosexual, but is as "gay as gay can be".

My question is this. Is this an accurate portrayal of a common practice? Is this in fact something that the LDS church encourages...homosexuals marrying heterosexuals. Is it encouraged for male homosexuals as well as women? To what end?

[Snagglepuss]

Gimme a minute..wasnt online. Was spending time with the kids before coming in to work...isnt it about....time? ;):)) Nicely played!

Still though, I would have figured you would have asked your question in the post stating you wanted to ask a question. But that's just me. ;)

[Snagglepuss]

Ok, so the unmarried teen daughter of the main character (the polygamist) is pregnant. To her credit, she decides to put the child up for adoption instead of abortion.

She finds an LDS family looking to adopt through an online service..and agrees to do a "meet and greet" with the couple to get to know them, feel them out, ect.

During the meeting, the husband reveals that he is a homosexual, and infers that the LDS church encouraged him to marry. He states that he is a non-practicing homosexual, but is as "gay as gay can be".

My question is this. Is this an accurate portrayal of a common practice? Is this in fact something that the LDS church encourages...homosexuals marrying heterosexuals. Is it encouraged for male homosexuals as well as women? To what end?I'll look for the article stating as much, but no, this is not an encouraged practice. Sounds to me like HBO is trying to cash in on the sensationalism surrounding prop 8 and looking to try and give the Church a black eye in the process.

Am I saying that some well-meaning bishop somewhere has never made such an encouragement? Nope. But I am saying that the practice is actually discouraged by the General Authorities of the Church.

[Fire Watch]

:)) Nicely played!

Still though, I would have figured you would have asked your question in the post stating you wanted to ask a question. But that's just me. ;)
Didnt have the time when I posted that. I simply posted that to place this back on my radar and to remind myself to ask the question.

[Fire Watch]

I'll look for the article stating as much, but no, this is not an encouraged practice. Sounds to me like HBO is trying to cash in on the sensationalism surrounding prop 8 and looking to try and give the Church a black eye in the process.

Am I saying that some well-meaning bishop somewhere has never made such an encouragement? Nope. But I am saying that the practice is actually discouraged by the General Authorities of the Church.
I believe these were filmed before that whole issue, but I could be wrong. It however wouldnt suprise me in the least if this was simply typical Hollywood stupidity.

[Snagglepuss]

Still looking for a specific article, but in the meantime, here is a quote from President Hinckley...

Marriage should not be viewed as a therapeutic step to solve problems such as homosexual inclinations or practices, which first should clearly be overcome with a firm and fixed determination never to slip to such practices again.

http://lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?vgnextoid=2354fccf2b7db010VgnVCM1000004d 82620aRCRD&sourceId=969567700817b010VgnVCM1000004d82620a____

[Fire Watch]

Still looking for a specific article, but in the meantime, here is a quote from President Hinckley...



http://lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?vgnextoid=2354fccf2b7db010VgnVCM1000004d 82620aRCRD&sourceId=969567700817b010VgnVCM1000004d82620a____
Good position imo. Thanks.

[Snagglepuss]

Okay, here's the article I was thinking about. This is Elder Oaks, fielding questions about Same-Gender attractions. I've included the pertinent question in the quote...

PUBLIC AFFAIRS: Is heterosexual marriage ever an option for those with homosexual feelings?

ELDER OAKS: We are sometimes asked about whether marriage is a remedy for these feelings that we have been talking about. President Hinckley, faced with the fact that apparently some had believed it to be a remedy, and perhaps that some Church leaders had even counseled marriage as the remedy for these feelings, made this statement: “Marriage should not be viewed as a therapeutic step to solve problems such as homosexual inclinations or practices.” To me that means that we are not going to stand still to put at risk daughters of God who would enter into such marriages under false pretenses or under a cloud unknown to them. Persons who have this kind of challenge that they cannot control could not enter marriage in good faith.

On the other hand, persons who have cleansed themselves of any transgression and who have shown their ability to deal with these feelings or inclinations and put them in the background, and feel a great attraction for a daughter of God and therefore desire to enter marriage and have children and enjoy the blessings of eternity — that’s a situation when marriage would be appropriate.

http://newsroom.lds.org/ldsnewsroom/eng/public-issues/same-gender-attraction

[Fire Watch]

Okay, here's the article I was thinking about. This is Elder Oaks, fielding questions about Same-Gender attractions. I've included the pertinent question in the quote...



http://newsroom.lds.org/ldsnewsroom/eng/public-issues/same-gender-attraction

I believe the 2nd paragraph is probably what they jumped off of for the script..

"On the other hand, persons who have cleansed themselves of any transgression and who have shown their ability to deal with these feelings or inclinations and put them in the background, and feel a great attraction for a daughter of God and therefore desire to enter marriage and have children and enjoy the blessings of eternity — that’s a situation when marriage would be appropriate."

This couple were (on the surface anyway) a loving..if not somewhat strange couple. If he hadnt said he was gay, you probably wouldnt have known. He expressed his undying love and devotion for his wife, yet referred to his SSA (same sex attraction) as if it were a bum foot, a stutter, or some other minor quirk. They married willingly, and obviously desired to have children..just not through reproduction.

So it seemed he had A). cleansed himself of any transgression B.) had shown his ability to deal with these feelings or inclinations and put them in the background, and C.) felt a great attraction for a daughter of God and therefore desire to enter marriage and have children and enjoy the blessings of eternity.

Given the limited information, in this situation, do you think your church would believe this marriage to be appropriate?

[Snagglepuss]

I believe the 2nd paragraph is probably what they jumped off of for the script..

"On the other hand, persons who have cleansed themselves of any transgression and who have shown their ability to deal with these feelings or inclinations and put them in the background, and feel a great attraction for a daughter of God and therefore desire to enter marriage and have children and enjoy the blessings of eternity — that’s a situation when marriage would be appropriate."

This couple were (on the surface anyway) a loving..if not somewhat strange couple. If he hadnt said he was gay, you probably wouldnt have known. He expressed his undying love and devotion for his wife, yet referred to his SSA (same sex attraction) as if it were a bum foot, a stutter, or some other minor quirk. They married willingly, and obviously desired to have children..just not through reproduction.

So it seemed he had A). cleansed himself of any transgression B.) had shown his ability to deal with these feelings or inclinations and put them in the background, and C.) felt a great attraction for a daughter of God and therefore desire to enter marriage and have children and enjoy the blessings of eternity.

Given the limited information, in this situation, do you think your church would believe this marriage to be appropriate?No. The reason I say this is that the man still identifies himself as gay. This indicates that he still feels same-sex attraction, and thus he cannot honestly give himself fully to his wife.

[Fire Watch]

I agree. Thanks.

[MobyMule]

No. The reason I say this is that the man still identifies himself as gay. This indicates that he still feels same-sex attraction, and thus he cannot honestly give himself fully to his wife.

I agree with that.

[shinyranger]

I was visiting my wife at her work for lunch one day. A co-worker of hers came in and asked her about polygamy while we were sitting there, citing "Big Love" as his source. He knew that she is a "Mormon" and didn't make the distinction between LDS and polygamists.

The average viewer with a cursory knowledge of the LDS Church does not know the difference. She explained the situation to him and he understood but he was puzzled as to why the producers of the show would not make the distinction a bit more clear.

Couple this with the inane comments by Tom Hanks (producer of "Big Love" and vocal opposer of Prop 8) a few weeks back and my opinion, based on this encounter, is that "Big Love" is a just another way to try and tear down the LDS Church.

[Fire Watch]

The whole show is centered around the contentious relationship between the polygamists and their LDS families who vehemently oppose their lifestyle. I dont know how much more clear HBO could make it. Even a casual viewer..one who has only seen even a single episode couldnt miss that fact.

[shinyranger]

It may be clear to *you* because you have experience with LDS members from this board (or other interactions). My experience was that the portrayal is not great enough for the average viewer to know the difference. The co-worker asked us if we practice polygamy as a direct result of watching that show.

The whole show is produced by someone who has an agenda...
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,480167,00.html
He later "apologized" because he got nailed on it, but the underlying motivations and bias that prompted the original comment still remain. I can't believe that there is no ulterior motive for having this show on television other than strictly for entertainment.

[pictor]

It's odd that I have never seen this show, considering I have no moral issues whatsoever with multiple marriage on the assumption all members of the union are given equal worth and value. Unfortunately, this is not the case with all the polygamy cases that make the news, but the fact they are making the news is one indicator of their disfunction.

For the other polygamous families out there, and I know several (with the understanding that polygamy means multiple spouses, not multiple wives), they get on with their lives and sharing a household and are otherwise sufficiently normal as to be not news worthy.

Therefore....I have to ask myself why the heck have I not watched this show yet. I guess I am worried it will be a poor example of functional polygamy (it's TV drama, of *course* it will be disfunctional....it'd be boring otherwise).

Maybe I have to check it out after all.

[Fire Watch]

It may be clear to *you* because you have experience with LDS members from this board (or other interactions). My experience was that the portrayal is not great enough for the average viewer to know the difference. The co-worker asked us if we practice polygamy as a direct result of watching that show.

Have you seen the show? A single episode? One would have to be visually impaired and watching with the mute button on not to understand it.

The WHOLE premise of the show is the polygamist family hiding their lifestyle from their LDS neighbors, co-workers, and friends, struggling with their LDS family, while trying to appear "normal" living in Salt Lake City, in an all LDS neighborhood.

The family is in constant struggle against the "prophet" of the polygamist sect, who is facing criminal charges stemming from forcing underage women to marry...the "prophet" is also the father of one of the lead character's wives.

Unless the "average" viewer in your opinion is completely and utterly stupid..they realize that the overwhelming majority of LDS Mormons do not live on compounds in the wilderness, dress like it's 1835, have multiple wives, and try to murder their detractors.

If that is your opinion of the "average" viewer, then I suggest that it is you, not the average viewer that needs to be enlightened.

[gpd®]

Have you seen the show? A single episode? One would have to be visually impaired and watching with the mute button on not to understand it.

The WHOLE premise of the show is the polygamist family hiding their lifestyle from their LDS neighbors, co-workers, and friends, struggling with their LDS family, while trying to appear "normal" living in Salt Lake City, in an all LDS neighborhood.

The family is in constant struggle against the "prophet" of the polygamist sect, who is facing criminal charges stemming from forcing underage women to marry...the "prophet" is also the father of one of the lead character's wives.

Unless the "average" viewer in your opinion is completely and utterly stupid..they realize that the overwhelming majority of LDS Mormons do not live on compounds in the wilderness, dress like it's 1835, have multiple wives, and try to murder their detractors.

If that is your opinion of the "average" viewer, then I suggest that it is you, not the average viewer that needs to be enlightened.

And I may add as an "average" viewer, it is known to all the fans of the show I talk to that they are living "the principle" which they make very clear on the show is not and LDS practice and is extremely unacceptable to every LDS member they come in contract with even though several characters "tolerate" it.

[terri910]

The WHOLE premise of the show is the polygamist family hiding their lifestyle from their LDS neighbors, co-workers, and friends, struggling with their LDS family, while trying to appear "normal" living in Salt Lake City, in an all LDS neighborhood.

Yup.

[Mikko]

I dunno. It's kind of interesting though..I got into it a bit.

They're obviously not LDS, but they are Mormon right?
"Mormon" is a name applied to LDS by "gentiles," so I don't think they are any more "Mormon" than any other group.:)

[Snow]

I dunno. It's kind of interesting though..I got into it a bit.

They're obviously not LDS, but they are Mormon right?

They're Mormon in the same sense as a non-Pentecostal who calls themselves Pentecostal is Pentecostal.

[MobyMule]

Maybe MINO's?

[Fire Watch]

They're Mormon in the same sense as a non-Pentecostal who calls themselves Pentecostal is Pentecostal.
Care to cite an example of a non-Pentecostal calling themselves Pentecostal? I cant think of any. There are various religious groups that refer to themselves as Pentecostal...it doesnt change what I believe, or offend me in anyway.

There are scores of religious groups that call themselves Mormons..does that change what you believe? Why does it offend you that they call themselves Mormon? They most likely believe you to be as wrong as you believe them to be. Why dont they have the same right to label themselves as they wish that you enjoy?

[RayMan]

Care to cite an example of a non-Pentecostal calling themselves Pentecostal? I cant think of any. There are various religious groups that refer to themselves as Pentecostal...it doesnt change what I believe, or offend me in anyway.

There are scores of religious groups that call themselves Mormons..does that change what you believe? Why does it offend you that they call themselves Mormon? They most likely believe you to be as wrong as you believe them to be. Why dont they have the same right to label themselves as they wish that you enjoy?



I've been a Pentecostal for over thirty years now. Never have come across or even heard of any non-Pentecostal group calling themselves Pentecostal.

[Fire Watch]

I've been a Pentecostal for over thirty years now. Never have come across or even heard of any non-Pentecostal group calling themselves Pentecostal.
And you're a different flavor Pentecostal than I am. We disagree on several major doctrinal issues..yet I have no issue with you calling yourself Pentecostal..and I cant imagine you having any problem with my church calling itself The United Pentecostal Church International.

[Snagglepuss]

And around and around we go....

For the record, I don't care what anyone calls themselves. They can say they're Mormons, Buddhists, Moonies, or Martians for all I care. What I take exception to is when the hack media fails to clearly distinguish between the specific groups, whether though ignorance, laziness, or a direct attempt to blur the lines in the name of sensationalism. I'm not pointing to any specific incident, and in all fairness, it is my feeling that the media has actually gotten a bit better at not doing this. But misconceptions about the LDS church still exist, and when the media exacerbates those misconceptions, it definitely annoys me.

[MobyMule]

And around and around we go....

For the record, I don't care what anyone calls themselves. They can say their Mormons, Buddhists, Moonies, or Martians for all I care. What I take exception to is when the hack media fails to clearly distinguish between the specific groups, whether though ignorance, laziness, or a direct attempt to blur the lines in the name of sensationalism. I'm not pointing to any specific incident, and in all fairness, it is my feeling that the media has actually gotten a bit better at not doing this. But misconceptions about the LDS church still exist, and when the media exacerbates those misconceptions, it definitely annoys me.

I think that is a fair statement.

[RayMan]

And you're a different flavor Pentecostal than I am. We disagree on several major doctrinal issues..yet I have no issue with you calling yourself Pentecostal..and I cant imagine you having any problem with my church calling itself The United Pentecostal Church International.


Nope. UPC folk are good folk in my book anyday.

[RayMan]

And around and around we go....

For the record, I don't care what anyone calls themselves. They can say they're Mormons, Buddhists, Moonies, or Martians for all I care. What I take exception to is when the hack media fails to clearly distinguish between the specific groups, whether though ignorance, laziness, or a direct attempt to blur the lines in the name of sensationalism. I'm not pointing to any specific incident, and in all fairness, it is my feeling that the media has actually gotten a bit better at not doing this. But misconceptions about the LDS church still exist, and when the media exacerbates those misconceptions, it definitely annoys me.
Sounds reasonable to me. I get ticked off when people insinuate that all Pentecostals play with poisonous snakes.

[Snagglepuss]

Sounds reasonable to me. I get ticked off when people insinuate that all Pentecostals play with poisonous snakes.
As you should when people are misrepresenting your beliefs.

[RayMan]

As you should when people are misrepresenting your beliefs.

No argument from me there. It is one thing to disagree with someone's religious beliefs and a whole different ball of wax to misrepresent those beliefs.

[gpd®]

They're Mormon in the same sense as a non-Pentecostal who calls themselves Pentecostal is Pentecostal.

I am going to jump on this wagon and say that I used to be anti-Pentecostal when I was a Catholic. I never met anyone who called them selves a Pentecostal who wasn't.

Now that I've been Pentecostal for 15 years, I still haven't met anyone who calls themselves a Pentecostal who isn't.

It is a very tough badge to wear and much responsibility comes with it so many people avoid calling themselves that.

Why call yourself a congressman, senator, or president of the United States when you aren't?

[Fire Watch]

Sounds reasonable to me. I get ticked off when people insinuate that all Pentecostals play with poisonous snakes.
Exactly..when everyone knows it's just you.

[RayMan]

Exactly..when everyone knows it's just you.

CID Fed-Exed a couple of rattlers and a cottonmouth out to me. I've been practicing daily.

[gpd®]

As you should when people are misrepresenting your beliefs.

Once again, I've seen no insinuations in the show that they call themselves Mormons. They call themselves "followers of the principle."

[Snagglepuss]

Once again, I've seen no insinuations in the show that they call themselves Mormons. They call themselves "followers of the principle."And I made no allusions that the show tried to call the polygamist family Mormon, nor would I care if they did. Now if they tried to imply they were LDS, that would be a different story, but I'm not suggesting they are doing that either. My comment was more of a general statement about misrepresentation, stemming from the slight tangent that the thread went on, rather than any attempt at an indictment of the show.

[gpd®]

And I made no allusions that the show tried to call the polygamist family Mormon, nor would I care if they did. Now if they tried to imply they were LDS, that would be a different story, but I'm not suggesting they are doing that either. My comment was more of a general statement about misrepresentation, stemming from the slight tangent that the thread went on, rather than any attempt at an indictment of the show.

Which leads us back to the question, are gay people asked or made to marry straight people in the LDS in order to have a chance of eternal salvation?

This was how I interpreted the scene in the last episode.

[gpd®]

CID Fed-Exed a couple of rattlers and a cottonmouth out to me. I've been practicing daily.

I'm down here doing the "poison" thing. Wanna come by for a drink before you hit D-land?;)

[Snagglepuss]

Which leads us back to the question, are gay people asked or made to marry straight people in the LDS in order to have a chance of eternal salvation?

This was how I interpreted the scene in the last episode.I'm pretty sure I already answered that.

No.

[RayMan]

You did. GPD was all caught up figuring out his bowling average for this week and missed it.

[RayMan]

I'm down here doing the "poison" thing. Wanna come by for a drink before you hit D-land?;)

That might actually be possible. I will pm you.

[gpd®]

You did. GPD was all caught up figuring out his bowling average for this week and missed it.

Thanks for the cover Ray and thanks to Snags, don't know how I missed that post.

(BTW, I bowled well but we only won one game this week. My teamies had a bad week.)

[roger teekell]

I think its currently the best show on TV personally, but then again, I'm not a mormon.

2-12-09...4:23pm....

Me and MrCapitalism AGREE on something...

I love this show...

So many GREAT plot lines going on at the same time!!

[gpd®]

2-12-09...4:23pm....

Me and MrCapitalism AGREE on something...

I love this show...

So many GREAT plot lines going on at the same time!!

Sometimes I think too many, but the acting ensemble is par excellence.

What a great and contrasting show to pick up the slack for the horrible exit of the Sopranos.

[roger teekell]

Sometimes I think too many, but the acting ensemble is par excellence.

What a great and contrasting show to pick up the slack for the horrible exit of the Sopranos.

Extremely well casted indeed...

BTW..I met one of the "Sopranos" cast members last night..

He's playing in "Tony and Tina's wedding" at Planet Hollywood..

Can't rmember his name...I think he played the gay guy..

[terri910]

Due to making some changes in our cable service, I haven't seen any current episodes....is Bruce Dern still in the cast?

[Fire Watch]

Due to making some changes in our cable service, I haven't seen any current episodes....is Bruce Dern still in the cast?
Yes he is. He almost wasnt..you'll have to watch to find out why ;)

You can find the episodes online.

[rory]

Have you seen the show? A single episode? One would have to be visually impaired and watching with the mute button on not to understand it.

The WHOLE premise of the show is the polygamist family hiding their lifestyle from their LDS neighbors, co-workers, and friends, struggling with their LDS family, while trying to appear "normal" living in Salt Lake City, in an all LDS neighborhood.

The family is in constant struggle against the "prophet" of the polygamist sect, who is facing criminal charges stemming from forcing underage women to marry...the "prophet" is also the father of one of the lead character's wives.

Unless the "average" viewer in your opinion is completely and utterly stupid..they realize that the overwhelming majority of LDS Mormons do not live on compounds in the wilderness, dress like it's 1835, have multiple wives, and try to murder their detractors.

If that is your opinion of the "average" viewer, then I suggest that it is you, not the average viewer that needs to be enlightened.
I lived in Utah and knew polygamists, for the most part they are easy to pick out. Most LDS people know who is in their ward (area, neighborhood) and who is or isn't LDS. They know what business's are owned or run by polygamist's and for the most part it is live and let live.
Usually they just want to be left alone, but there are some very scary people and they do some pretty scary things, especially to their own family. In the Salt Lake valley I find it a little hard to believe that a polygamist family would last more than about three days before almost everyone around them knew they were.

[terri910]

Yes he is. He almost wasnt..you'll have to watch to find out why ;)

You can find the episodes online.I'll have to check out viewing the episodes online!

I think Bruce Dern is an amazing actor -- a national treasure as far as character actors go. I've met him more than a few times, but remember one party where he and Bill Paxton were both there. Big Love had not aired, yet, and I knew Bill Paxton more from "Titanic"...*LOL*....

[noelle12]

I lived in Utah and knew polygamists, for the most part they are easy to pick out. Most LDS people know who is in their ward (area, neighborhood) and who is or isn't LDS. They know what business's are owned or run by polygamist's and for the most part it is live and let live.
Usually they just want to be left alone, but there are some very scary people and they do some pretty scary things, especially to their own family. In the Salt Lake valley I find it a little hard to believe that a polygamist family would last more than about three days before almost everyone around them knew they were.

Are you trying to imply that everything I see on TV is not 100% true and accurate? I'm shocked!

[PaleoPaul]

Since I don't get HBO, I have to rely on the online episodes.

Big Love is great! So what if its accurate or inaccurate or whatever...

It's one of the best concepts put on cable TV these days.

[Fire Watch]

What can you say about the latest episode except wow :eek:

[Theranna]

I adore this show. This season has me with my mouth wide open in shock all the time. And this episode was just... WOW!!!

[gpd®]

I adore this show. This season has me with my mouth wide open in shock all the time. And this episode was just... WOW!!!

Dittos!

[gpd®]

What can you say about the latest episode except wow :eek:

I wonder what that deal was with the veils and the white outfits and all the reciting of ritualistic verses or something.

[Fire Watch]

LDS Temple ceremony.

It's apparently caused some controversy.

http://www.abc4.com/content/about_4/links_numbers/story/HBO-releases-statements-on-controversial-Big-Love/57lLD5LNYEeRbFCm6M8sDw.cspx

SALT LAKE CITY (ABC 4 News) – HBO says it isn't trying to offend Mormon families with this week’s episode of Big Love.

Many in the LDS church are upset about this Sunday's upcoming episode, which reportedly will depict a sacred LDS temple ceremony.

In a statement released Tuesday to the Associated Press, HBO executives apologized, but said the endowment ceremony is a critical part of the story line.

The network says they screened the scene for accuracy with an adviser who is "familiar" with temple ceremonies.


Statement from HBO

"We know that the writers/executive producers of the series have gone to great lengths to be respectful and accurate in portraying the endowment ceremony. That ceremony is an important part of this year's storyline. Obviously, it was not our intention to do anything disrespectful to the church. To those who may be offended, we offer our sincere apology. It should also be noted that throughout the series' three-year run, the writer/executive producers have made abundantly clear the distinction between the LDS church and those extreme fringe groups who practice polygamy. "

Statement from Big Love creators Mark V. Olsen and Will Scheffer

"In approaching the dramatization of the endowment ceremony, we knew we had a responsibility to be completely accurate and to show the ceremony in the proper context and with respect. We therefore took great pains to depict the ceremony with the dignity and reverence it is due. This approach is entirely evident in the scene portrayed in this episode and certainly reflected in Jeanne Tripplehorn's beautiful and moving performance as she faces losing the Church she loved so much. In order to assure the accuracy of the ceremony, it was thoroughly vetted by an adviser who is familiar with temple practices and rituals. This consultant was actually on the set throughout the filming of the scenes to make sure every detail was correct."

[Reeder]

LDS Temple ceremony.

It's apparently caused some controversy.

http://www.abc4.com/content/about_4/links_numbers/story/HBO-releases-statements-on-controversial-Big-Love/57lLD5LNYEeRbFCm6M8sDw.cspx

SALT LAKE CITY (ABC 4 News) – HBO says it isn't trying to offend Mormon families with this week’s episode of Big Love.

Many in the LDS church are upset about this Sunday's upcoming episode, which reportedly will depict a sacred LDS temple ceremony.

In a statement released Tuesday to the Associated Press, HBO executives apologized, but said the endowment ceremony is a critical part of the story line.

The network says they screened the scene for accuracy with an adviser who is "familiar" with temple ceremonies.


Statement from HBO

"We know that the writers/executive producers of the series have gone to great lengths to be respectful and accurate in portraying the endowment ceremony. That ceremony is an important part of this year's storyline. Obviously, it was not our intention to do anything disrespectful to the church. To those who may be offended, we offer our sincere apology. It should also be noted that throughout the series' three-year run, the writer/executive producers have made abundantly clear the distinction between the LDS church and those extreme fringe groups who practice polygamy. "

Statement from Big Love creators Mark V. Olsen and Will Scheffer

"In approaching the dramatization of the endowment ceremony, we knew we had a responsibility to be completely accurate and to show the ceremony in the proper context and with respect. We therefore took great pains to depict the ceremony with the dignity and reverence it is due. This approach is entirely evident in the scene portrayed in this episode and certainly reflected in Jeanne Tripplehorn's beautiful and moving performance as she faces losing the Church she loved so much. In order to assure the accuracy of the ceremony, it was thoroughly vetted by an adviser who is familiar with temple practices and rituals. This consultant was actually on the set throughout the filming of the scenes to make sure every detail was correct."



The LDS Church's response:

http://newsroom.lds.org/ldsnewsroom/eng/commentary/the-publicity-dilemma

[gpd®]

The LDS Church's response:

http://newsroom.lds.org/ldsnewsroom/eng/commentary/the-publicity-dilemma

Peaceful response. Sounds like we are all accepting the Constitutional right to portray through the media different lifestyles as we interpret them.

I never liked the way Pentecostals are displayed. I personally don't start protesting or anything. Looks like the LDS is going to take it in stride. Kudos.

[HokieCougarVandal]

LDS Temple ceremony.

It's apparently caused some controversy.

http://www.abc4.com/content/about_4/links_numbers/story/HBO-releases-statements-on-controversial-Big-Love/57lLD5LNYEeRbFCm6M8sDw.cspx

SALT LAKE CITY (ABC 4 News) – HBO says it isn't trying to offend Mormon families with this week’s episode of Big Love.

Many in the LDS church are upset about this Sunday's upcoming episode, which reportedly will depict a sacred LDS temple ceremony.

In a statement released Tuesday to the Associated Press, HBO executives apologized, but said the endowment ceremony is a critical part of the story line.

The network says they screened the scene for accuracy with an adviser who is "familiar" with temple ceremonies.


Statement from HBO

"We know that the writers/executive producers of the series have gone to great lengths to be respectful and accurate in portraying the endowment ceremony. That ceremony is an important part of this year's storyline. Obviously, it was not our intention to do anything disrespectful to the church. To those who may be offended, we offer our sincere apology. It should also be noted that throughout the series' three-year run, the writer/executive producers have made abundantly clear the distinction between the LDS church and those extreme fringe groups who practice polygamy. "

Statement from Big Love creators Mark V. Olsen and Will Scheffer

"In approaching the dramatization of the endowment ceremony, we knew we had a responsibility to be completely accurate and to show the ceremony in the proper context and with respect. We therefore took great pains to depict the ceremony with the dignity and reverence it is due. This approach is entirely evident in the scene portrayed in this episode and certainly reflected in Jeanne Tripplehorn's beautiful and moving performance as she faces losing the Church she loved so much. In order to assure the accuracy of the ceremony, it was thoroughly vetted by an adviser who is familiar with temple practices and rituals. This consultant was actually on the set throughout the filming of the scenes to make sure every detail was correct."



Curiously, I have these questions (not directed to you FW ... just general):
1. "...the endowment ceremony is a critical part of the story line."
How? In what context would the endowment ceremony be critical? Being LDS and having gone through this many times, I can't fathom (for myself) how this ceremony would be critical. IMO, nothing lends itself to the world.

2. "We know that the writers/executive producers of the series have gone to great lengths to be respectful and accurate in portraying the endowment ceremony."
How is it being respectful when you show something that (I know) has been asked to not be shown outside the temple?

3. "It should also be noted that throughout the series' three-year run, the writer/executive producers have made abundantly clear the distinction between the LDS church and those extreme fringe groups who practice polygamy."
I'm confused then. How would a fringe group, who do not enter LDS temples, know every detail about an LDS endowment ceremony in the temple?

4. "We therefore took great pains to depict the ceremony with the dignity and reverence it is due."
IF there was any amount of dignity and reverence ... refer to question #2.

5. "In order to assure the accuracy of the ceremony, it was thoroughly vetted by an adviser who is familiar with temple practices and rituals. This consultant was actually on the set throughout the filming of the scenes to make sure every detail was correct."
If this consultant was making sure every detail was correct, then one can conclude that this consultant is a current practicing temple LDS as we are asked not to discuss these matters outside the temple. If one is not current, does that not make their information old/invalid?

[Fire Watch]

Those questions cant be answered by any other means than watching the series. I cant recap for you 3 yrs worth of plot leading up to this point. Suffice it to say, they are correct in saying it was a critical part of the story line.

[gpd®]

Those questions cant be answered by any other means than watching the series. I cant recap for you 3 yrs worth of plot leading up to this point. Suffice it to say, they are correct in saying it was a critical part of the story line.

I've seen every episode more than twice now for three seasons. It took this thread to understand the importance of that scene. Thanks Sean Hannity Forums.

[Snagglepuss]

All I can say is I'm glad so many God-fearing folks find displays of utter disrespect to another religion so entertaining.

[Fire Watch]

Well, Snow before he was banned found some HBO documentaries about Pentecostals immensely entertaining. If memory serves, I believe he ate a time out for his joyous musings. We all (different faiths) take our lumps. That's life.

[gpd®]

The main character is trying to find her way back on the path of churchdom.

She obviously missed to spirituality of certain rituals by her joy of being back in the temple, granted she may have not been worthy. Not unlike portraying a Catholic killer ganster who receives communion at their daughter's wedding.

As an outsider, I don't see it as disrespectful. Maybe I am in the minority.

[Snagglepuss]

Well, Snow before he was banned found some HBO documentaries about Pentecostals immensely entertaining. If memory serves, I believe he ate a time out for his joyous musings. We all (different faiths) take our lumps. That's life.

I am not Snow, and I have never watched a show such as you describe. But hey, if you're comfortable with the philosophy of "Do unto others what you think they've done to you" then more power to you. That's not the road for me though.

[Koushi Shinigami]

Meh. I Don't watch the show. I Don't find it entertaining. I couldn't comment on if it is degrading to the LDS faith or not.

I think I've watched maybe 1.5 episodes. It's about a guy who's a polygamist, right? So it's a horror series?

[Fire Watch]

I am not Snow, and I have never watched a show such as you describe. But hey, if you're comfortable with the philosophy of "Do unto others what you think they've done to you" then more power to you. That's not the road for me though.

Well, in a way..it is the road for you. You realize how incredibly offensive baptism by proxy is to many folks..yet I doubt you'll stop the practice. So I guess it's all relative right?

If the show were about Pentecostals, I'd still watch it.

I choose not to be offended by Hollywood. It's make believe. It's entertainment.

[Snagglepuss]

Well, in a way..it is the road for you. You realize how incredibly offensive baptism by proxy is to many folks..yet I doubt you'll stop the practice. So I guess it's all relative right?Unless you believe you've been commanded by God to watch Big Love, the comparison doesn't really apply.


If the show were about Pentecostals, I'd still watch it. Cool....at least you're consistent. So am I. And I do not choose to watch shows that intentionally mock other religions.


I choose not to be offended by Hollywood. It's make believe. It's entertainment.If the ceremony was depicted with the accuracy that HBO bragged about, then there is nothing make believe about it. But you knew that when you posted the above, so....

[hillplus]

I've seen every episode more than twice now for three seasons. It took this thread to understand the importance of that scene. Thanks Sean Hannity Forums.

Very interesting comment :think:

Multiple viewings and still needed this thread to 'understand the importance of that scene?'

[supreme_war_Pig]

The main character is trying to find her way back on the path of churchdom.

She obviously missed to spirituality of certain rituals by her joy of being back in the temple, granted she may have not been worthy. Not unlike portraying a Catholic killer ganster who receives communion at their daughter's wedding.

As an outsider, I don't see it as disrespectful. Maybe I am in the minority.

Nah...she knew she was gonna be excommunicated, so she wanted the ritual one last time to feel close to God and her church before that happened. Remember, in her polygamist situation, there is no formal church. Her husband is head of the families, and is also the spiritual leader.

[supreme_war_Pig]

Cool....at least you're consistent. So am I. And I do not choose to watch shows that intentionally mock other religions.


I'm sorry Snag, but is it your contention that the show is 'mocking' the LDS? The Polygamists? Both? Because if that is your position, I respectfully disagree. The depiction of the ceremony may have been a blunder, but I would not view it as mockery.

[Snagglepuss]

I'm sorry Snag, but is it your contention that the show is 'mocking' the LDS? The Polygamists? Both? Because if that is your position, I respectfully disagree. The depiction of the ceremony may have been a blunder, but I would not view it as mockery.
You are free to that opinion. I am free to mine.

[supreme_war_Pig]

You are free to that opinion. I am free to mine.

Well of course. May I ask: what is it that is/has been mockery? The whole thing, or is there something specific?

[gpd®]

Well of course. May I ask: what is it that is/has been mockery? The whole thing, or is there something specific?

I am also asking kindly the same. I have no beef against the LDS. I have some very wonderful LDS friends and would like to know what is considered offensive.

[gpd®]

Very interesting comment :think:

Multiple viewings and still needed this thread to 'understand the importance of that scene?'

Yeeeessssss. I have no clues to LDS rituals but am completely open to learning.

Jesus said, "blessed are the meek." I have learned that to mean the "teachable."

[Snagglepuss]

Well of course. May I ask: what is it that is/has been mockery? The whole thing, or is there something specific?The depiction of our sacred temple ordinances, despite knowing how we feel about that. That is the mockery.

[supreme_war_Pig]

The depiction of our sacred temple ordinances, despite knowing how we feel about that. That is the mockery.

I see. Thank you. And I would agree that showing that was probably a blunder.

[gpd®]

The depiction of our sacred temple ordinances, despite knowing how we feel about that. That is the mockery.

WADR, is that similar to making cartoon depictions of Mohammed? Just simply prohibited? (Not inferring that the LDS people react the same.)

I am guessing some rituals are only for the totally enlightened, I haven't seem that in Pentecostalism yet.

If it is the same, then yes, I agree it should have been left out. Pentecostals on the other hand aren't prohibitive about any of our understandings or Holy Spirit led practices.

[AeroEngineer]

I like the show.

It's been getting a little far-fetched recently, but its very original and entertaining. HBO usually doesn't disappoint, though.

[Snagglepuss]

WADR, is that similar to making cartoon depictions of Mohammed? Just simply prohibited? (Not inferring that the LDS people react the same.)

I am guessing some rituals are only for the totally enlightened, I haven't seem that in Pentecostalism yet.

If it is the same, then yes, I agree it should have been left out. Pentecostals on the other hand aren't prohibitive about any of our understandings or Holy Spirit led practices.
I'm not sure what WADR means, but I will attempt answer to what I believe you are asking.

Members of the LDS church feel so strongly about the ordinances that are performed in the temples that we don't even discuss them among ourselves (other than in generalities) outside of the temples. We believe that they are so sacred, so integral to our relationship with God, that the only place that discussing them with the proper reverence for them is possible is within the walls of our temples, and we make sacred promises not to do so.

I realize that others are under no such constraints, but that is how we feel about them. The producers and writers of Big Love knew full well how we feel on this subject, but they decided to write a story line that took the show in that direction anyways. And to be honest, if the show was really supposed to be about a non-LDS polygamist family, then I truly can't see any reason that they would have to air sacred ordinances pertaining solely to the LDS church, other than to mock us, regardless of their claims to the contrary.

[Fire Watch]

I understand your feelings about the ceremonies and ordinances. However, I fail to see how it can be offensive unless you actually watch it, and see it yourself and witness the portrayal.

The scene was an integral part of the story line..and again, I'd have to copy/paste the entire seasons transcript at least to explain why.

As far as the ordinances not being accurately portrayed, I'd have to say they were pretty accurate.

There is a site online where a person, who is "active" in the LDS church has posted videos that they secretly made of the ordinances taking place at the SLC Temple. This person has a current Temple recommend (as of Nov. 08 I believe), and tapes the entire process, from the point of driving into the Temple's parking. Obviously this person isn't truly worthy,from an LDS perspective of holding a Temple recommend. Of course I've never actually witnessed the ordinances first hand, but from seeing these videos online, I can say the HBO portrayal was accurate in comparison.

[Snagglepuss]

I understand your feelings about the ceremonies and ordinances. However, I fail to see ....
I have no doubt of that.

That being said, being incapable of empathizing does not mean the offence and disrespect is not real.

[I am the Eggman]

The depiction of our sacred temple ordinances, despite knowing how we feel about that. That is the mockery.
I've followed the show from the beginning and really love it. I tend to take the religious aspects they portray with a grain of salt, but the acting and writing are top notch.

I don't know if the the details of the ceremony they showed were accurate or not, but I thought what they did show was beautiful, touching, and pretty cool, as religious rituals go. I think they'd have had a hard time showing the depth of and scope of loss that Barb was facing without it, but you never know.

That scene, probably more than any other, piqued my interest in the LDS (not that I'd convert or anything), so it might even have an unintended (by the producers) positive effect that actually benefits the LDS.

Having said that, would you really expect hollywood or the media to respect anyone's beliefs or wishes other than their own?

[Fire Watch]

It's over. I'll take your word for it that you meant no insult. I've deleted my post.

[Snagglepuss]

It's over. I'll take your word for it that you meant no insult. I've deleted my post.Thank you. I appreciate the fact that you are accepting my word for it. I shall return the favor and delete the posts in response to the ones you deleted.

[noelle12]

To lighten the mood a little, I'm going to share something I read on a blog today.

The LDS church, in retaliation, plans to show "Turner and Hooch" in its entirety. That'll show Tom Hanks!

Obviously a joke, at least it made me laugh

[Constantine the Great]

I realize that others are under no such constraints, but that is how we feel about them. The producers and writers of Big Love knew full well how we feel on this subject, but they decided to write a story line that took the show in that direction anyways. And to be honest, if the show was really supposed to be about a non-LDS polygamist family, then I truly can't see any reason that they would have to air sacred ordinances pertaining solely to the LDS church, other than to mock us, regardless of their claims to the contrary.

Or, since those groups who continue to practice polygamy consider themselves to be "true mormons", and were once part of the LDS faith at some point in time, continue to use the same temple ordinances that the official LDS church uses.

[Snagglepuss]

Or, since those groups who continue to practice polygamy consider themselves to be "true mormons", and were once part of the LDS faith at some point in time, continue to use the same temple ordinances that the official LDS church uses.It is my understanding that they don't. However even if they did, my understanding that the story takes place in an LDS temple makes your point moot, wouldn't you say?

[gpd®]

FWIW--

WADR=With All Due Respect.

[page017]

I am a mormon, and I've also seen all of the episodes of Big Love, right up until last weeks episode. I didn't watch it to see for myself, I can't imagine ever watching it. I've only been in the church for a little over a year, before that I was a Roman Catholic. I really can't think of any comparison that could happen to the RC church that would be comprable to the way that the last episode feels inappropriate to me. Maybe it would be like having a hidden camera inside the confessional and turning the footage into a tv show. Or having the conclave video taped as they are selecting a new Pope. Some things are just so sacred and personal, you just don't use them for entertainment.

I can accept that Big Love is entertainment, and isn't meant to be a real depiction of the LDS church, or a real depiction of LDS fundamentalists. And for the most part, that's been pretty clear. This season has seen them use more and more LDS storylines, and portraying the actual LDS church in a less and less flattering manner. Plus you have Tom Hanks calling Mormon's unAmerican, so that might make it harder to accept that negative depictions of the church are purely for entertainment.

The way Mormons are shown on the show is nothing like the real life LDS communitiy I am a part of. There's no good role model of what church members are actually like. The closest is the Hendrickson's across the street neighbor. Barb's sister and her hunsband are underhanded villians, and they have hinted that church leaders are supporting his scheme to hide the truth. Then you had the episode where the family went to pagent, which involved a lot of LDS content, some of that out of context.

So, we cancelled our HBO suscription. We didn't really want to. I don't think it's my place really to tell HBO what they can and cannot put on their show. But it's a premium service. We pay extra for HBO each month, it's not like it's one out of 200 other channels thats in a package deal. I don't know what HBO could do to make it right, like I said, I don't think they should have to edit their content for me, but maybe show a documentary of what the LDS community is actually like. Maybe they could broadcast General Conference, and let fans of Big Love actually see church leaders speak and find out what the church is really all about.

[RayMan]

I've followed the show from the beginning and really love it. I tend to take the religious aspects they portray with a grain of salt, but the acting and writing are top notch.

I don't know if the the details of the ceremony they showed were accurate or not, but I thought what they did show was beautiful, touching, and pretty cool, as religious rituals go. I think they'd have had a hard time showing the depth of and scope of loss that Barb was facing without it, but you never know.

That scene, probably more than any other, piqued my interest in the LDS (not that I'd convert or anything), so it might even have an unintended (by the producers) positive effect that actually benefits the LDS.

Having said that, would you really expect hollywood or the media to respect anyone's beliefs or wishes other than their own?

An excellent point.

[I am the Eggman]

[/b][/size]
An excellent point.
Thank you, sir.

[noelle12]

I am a Mormon, and I've also seen all of the episodes of Big Love, right up until last weeks episode. I didn't watch it to see for myself, I can't imagine ever watching it. I've only been in the church for a little over a year, before that I was a Roman Catholic. I really can't think of any comparison that could happen to the RC church that would be comparable to the way that the last episode feels inappropriate to me. Maybe it would be like having a hidden camera inside the confessional and turning the footage into a tv show. Or having the conclave video taped as they are selecting a new Pope. Some things are just so sacred and personal, you just don't use them for entertainment.

I can accept that Big Love is entertainment, and isn't meant to be a real depiction of the LDS church, or a real depiction of LDS fundamentalists. And for the most part, that's been pretty clear. This season has seen them use more and more LDS story lines, and portraying the actual LDS church in a less and less flattering manner. Plus you have Tom Hanks calling Mormon's unAmerican, so that might make it harder to accept that negative depictions of the church are purely for entertainment.

The way Mormons are shown on the show is nothing like the real life LDS community I am a part of. There's no good role model of what church members are actually like. The closest is the Hendrickson's across the street neighbor. Barb's sister and her husband are underhanded villains, and they have hinted that church leaders are supporting his scheme to hide the truth. Then you had the episode where the family went to pageant, which involved a lot of LDS content, some of that out of context.

So, we canceled our HBO subscription. We didn't really want to. I don't think it's my place really to tell HBO what they can and cannot put on their show. But it's a premium service. We pay extra for HBO each month, it's not like it's one out of 200 other channels that's in a package deal. I don't know what HBO could do to make it right, like I said, I don't think they should have to edit their content for me, but maybe show a documentary of what the LDS community is actually like. Maybe they could broadcast General Conference, and let fans of Big Love actually see church leaders speak and find out what the church is really all about.

Good post.

[Constantine the Great]

It is my understanding that they don't. However even if they did, my understanding that the story takes place in an LDS temple makes your point moot, wouldn't you say?no, it reinforces my point. The "F" in Flds stands for something; Fundamentalist. As in they believe they are the only ones who are totally true to the mormn teachings and Joseph Smith.

[page017]

no, it reinforces my point. The "F" in Flds stands for something; Fundamentalist. As in they believe they are the only ones who are totally true to the mormn teachings and Joseph Smith.

That's actually not quiet true either. Joseph Smith also taught the Articles of Faith as being the code for what a follower of his should do. And article 12 says " We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law. "

It's kind of an interesting catch 22 there. At the time Joseph Smith practiced plural marriage, it wasn't illegal. When it became illegal, the church instructed it's members not to do it anymore. Fundamentalists knowingly break the law, which goes against the teachings of Jospeh Smith.

[Frazzled]

<snip>...... Some things are just so sacred and personal, you just don't use them for entertainment.
.....<snip>

nicely said

[rory]

I am a mormon, and I've also seen all of the episodes of Big Love, right up until last weeks episode. I didn't watch it to see for myself, I can't imagine ever watching it. I've only been in the church for a little over a year, before that I was a Roman Catholic. I really can't think of any comparison that could happen to the RC church that would be comprable to the way that the last episode feels inappropriate to me. Maybe it would be like having a hidden camera inside the confessional and turning the footage into a tv show. Or having the conclave video taped as they are selecting a new Pope. Some things are just so sacred and personal, you just don't use them for entertainment.

I can accept that Big Love is entertainment, and isn't meant to be a real depiction of the LDS church, or a real depiction of LDS fundamentalists. And for the most part, that's been pretty clear. This season has seen them use more and more LDS storylines, and portraying the actual LDS church in a less and less flattering manner. Plus you have Tom Hanks calling Mormon's unAmerican, so that might make it harder to accept that negative depictions of the church are purely for entertainment.

The way Mormons are shown on the show is nothing like the real life LDS communitiy I am a part of. There's no good role model of what church members are actually like. The closest is the Hendrickson's across the street neighbor. Barb's sister and her hunsband are underhanded villians, and they have hinted that church leaders are supporting his scheme to hide the truth. Then you had the episode where the family went to pagent, which involved a lot of LDS content, some of that out of context.

So, we cancelled our HBO suscription. We didn't really want to. I don't think it's my place really to tell HBO what they can and cannot put on their show. But it's a premium service. We pay extra for HBO each month, it's not like it's one out of 200 other channels thats in a package deal. I don't know what HBO could do to make it right, like I said, I don't think they should have to edit their content for me, but maybe show a documentary of what the LDS community is actually like. Maybe they could broadcast General Conference, and let fans of Big Love actually see church leaders speak and find out what the church is really all about.

The LDS church has sent millions of missionaries to all corners of the Earth to true to preach the gospel of Joseph Smith, why do they get hung up on the portrayal of some things yet not of others.
Sacred ceremonies are one thing but how do they reconcile the fact that they want to spread the word yet keep certain things out of the publics eye.
I also wonder if the LDS folks here could possibly understand the feelings of gays that feel the same way about their ability to be married or have some of the same rights as straight Americans in that area. I wonder if they know what baptism for the dead when it includes Holocaust victims might be pretty sacred to Jews that don't like the practice. How about the practicing Mormons that follow the teachings of Joseph Smith and Brigham Young of polygamy, don't you think they may feel cheated and betrayed by their LDS cousins that no longer practice polygamy.
Who is to say that Warren Jeffs is any whackier than how the world perceived Joseph Smith to be.
The bottom line is it's easy to be offended right up to the time you offend somebody else, think.

[hillplus]

The LDS church has sent millions of missionaries to all corners of the Earth to true to preach the gospel of Joseph Smith, ......

Just gotta correct you here, they preach the gospel of Jesus Christ, not Joseph Smith ;)

[rory]

Just gotta correct you here, they preach the gospel of Jesus Christ, not Joseph Smith ;)
Millions and millions of people on the planet would disagree, but if you believe then you believe Joseph Smith was a true prophet.

[MobyMule]

Oh was there something going on? :)

[Fire Watch]

Yeah, the season finale. Pretty good..a major character got whacked. Pretty good build up for next season.

[hillplus]

Millions and millions of people on the planet would disagree, but if you believe then you believe Joseph Smith was a true prophet.



This is what they preach:

http://jesuschrist.lds.org/SonOfGod/eng/?cid=wpats1

[MobyMule]

Yeah, the season finale. Pretty good..a major character got whacked. Pretty good build up for next season.

Can't be as good as Battlestar Galactica. :)

[RayMan]

Personally, I still don't know who shot JR.

[Reeder]

I also wonder if the LDS folks here could possibly understand the feelings of gays that feel the same way about their ability to be married or have some of the same rights as straight Americans in that area.

Wanting to redifine marriage is not synonymous with wanting equal rights.


I wonder if they know what baptism for the dead when it includes Holocaust victims might be pretty sacred to Jews that don't like the practice.

Assuming I'm understanding your grammar, the LDS Church has asked its members NOT to perform proxy ordinances on Holocaust victims.


How about the practicing Mormons that follow the teachings of Joseph Smith and Brigham Young of polygamy, don't you think they may feel cheated and betrayed by their LDS cousins that no longer practice polygamy.


The Prophet asked members of the Church to stop practicing polygamy in 1890. If certain members of the Church feel that the Prophet was in the wrong, then perhaps they should take the case to God.


Who is to say that Warren Jeffs is any whackier than how the world perceived Joseph Smith to be.

Perception is irrelevant. Who cares what the world thinks? What matters is truth. The question you should be asking is "who is to say that Warren Jeffs isn't preaching the truth?" - or "who is to say that Joseph Smith wasn't preaching the truth?" That is up to each individual to discover for himself/herself.

[Ron Jon]

That's actually not quiet true either. Joseph Smith also taught the Articles of Faith as being the code for what a follower of his should do. And article 12 says " We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law. "

It's kind of an interesting catch 22 there. At the time Joseph Smith practiced plural marriage, it wasn't illegal. When it became illegal, the church instructed it's members not to do it anymore. Fundamentalists knowingly break the law, which goes against the teachings of Jospeh Smith.With all due respect, Joseph Smith practiced polygamy in Nauvoo, IL and at THAT time it was illegal. I'm not sure where you are getting your information that it was not illegal, because that simply is not correct.

I'm going to repost an earlier (almost a year ago) message from this forum about this topic.

""Sec 121. Bigamy consists in the having of two wives or two husbands at one and the same time, knowing that the former husband or wife is still alive. If any person or persons within this State, being married, or who shall hereafter marry, do at any time marry any person or persons, the former husband or wife being alive, the person so offending shall, on conviction thereof, be punished by a fine, not exceeding one thousand dollars, and imprisoned in the penitentiary, not exceeding two years. It shall not be necessary to prove either of the said marriages by the register or certificate thereof, or other record evidence; but the same may be proved by such evidence as is admissible to prove a marriage in other cases, and when such second marriage shall have taken place without this state, cohabitation in this state after such second marriage shall be deemed the commission of the crime of bigamy, and the trial in such case may take place in the county where such cohabitation shall have occurred."
Revised Laws of Illinois, 1833, p.198-99

I will simply say that it is a common MISconception that Polygamy, Polyginy or Bigamy was not illegal in the United States. When in reality, most States in the early 19th century did have anti-bigamy laws in place. Now whether or not they were enforced, is another matter.

An interesting article on the question "what if?"
http://www.religionlink.org/tip_040329b.php

[Ron Jon]

The Prophet asked members of the Church to stop practicing polygamy in 1890. If certain members of the Church feel that the Prophet was in the wrong, then perhaps they should take the case to God.I'm not going to get into a debate with you over this, but when the Manifesto was issued, LDS leaders did NOT suddenly STOP practicing polygamy. It took time. I hardly expect anyone to believe these men suddenly abandoned their wives and children! No. That would be unthinkable. Many LDS leaders were imprisoned because of polygamy. But I think those who continued the practice (even in secret) did so for the well-being and welfare of their families. Think about it, what would you do in that situation?

[RayMan]

I'm not going to get into a debate with you over this, but when the Manifesto was issued, LDS leaders did NOT suddenly STOP practicing polygamy. It took time. I hardly expect anyone to believe these men suddenly abandoned their wives and children! No. That would be unthinkable. Many LDS leaders were imprisoned because of polygamy. But I think those who continued the practice (even in secret) did so for the well-being and welfare of their families. Think about it, what would you do in that situation?


I am woefully ignorant of the facts of the matter, but I would assume that the idea would have been, "no more polygamy, from this date forward."

It has never occurred to me that the husbands would kick out all but one of their wives and the children she had borne. That would be just flat cruel, IMO.

So Reeder,
How about a link on the subject?

[Fire Watch]

Or how about a change of subject? Or how about taking this debate to another thread?

[RayMan]

I'm good. Reeder can just pm me a link.

[Ron Jon]

Or how about a change of subject? Or how about taking this debate to another thread?I don't have HBO, so I have to watch the recorded episodes. So, this last episode was the season finale you say? When does the next season start?

[Alaric]

I am woefully ignorant of the facts of the matter, but I would assume that the idea would have been, "no more polygamy, from this date forward."

It has never occurred to me that the husbands would kick out all but one of their wives and the children she had borne. That would be just flat cruel, IMO.

So Reeder,
How about a link on the subject?

The polygamy train was a very difficult one to stop. There was unfortunately quite a bit of confusion over the first manifesto where Woodruff declared since the law had been upheld as constitutional it was his intent to have the church submit to the law, did that mean that there would be no more polygamy in the USA but it was OK in countries where it was legal, or did that mean that there would be no more polygamy anywhere? The church issued a second manifesto clarifying that all new polygamous marriages were forbidden in the church everywhere. Between the two manifestos there were several polygamous marriages made in Canada, Mexico, and one on an ocean liner in international waters.

But you are right, no one asked any man to abandon a wife and his children by her. But by the middle of the first decade of the 20th century the church was excommunicating those who entered into new marriages, even excommunicated two of its own Apostles. That was for entering into new polygamous marriages. The church didn't start automatic excommunication of anyone who was polygamous until the 1940's, after all those who were polygamous before 1890 had passed on.

[gpd®]

Personally, I still don't know who shot JR.

Pssst, it was Maggie Simpson.

[mrcuff]

With all due respect, Joseph Smith practiced polygamy in Nauvoo, IL and at THAT time it was illegal. I'm not sure where you are getting your information that it was not illegal, because that simply is not correct.

I'm going to repost an earlier (almost a year ago) message from this forum about this topic.

""Sec 121. Bigamy consists in the having of two wives or two husbands at one and the same time, knowing that the former husband or wife is still alive. If any person or persons within this State, being married, or who shall hereafter marry, do at any time marry any person or persons, the former husband or wife being alive, the person so offending shall, on conviction thereof, be punished by a fine, not exceeding one thousand dollars, and imprisoned in the penitentiary, not exceeding two years. It shall not be necessary to prove either of the said marriages by the register or certificate thereof, or other record evidence; but the same may be proved by such evidence as is admissible to prove a marriage in other cases, and when such second marriage shall have taken place without this state, cohabitation in this state after such second marriage shall be deemed the commission of the crime of bigamy, and the trial in such case may take place in the county where such cohabitation shall have occurred."
Revised Laws of Illinois, 1833, p.198-99

I will simply say that it is a common MISconception that Polygamy, Polyginy or Bigamy was not illegal in the United States. When in reality, most States in the early 19th century did have anti-bigamy laws in place. Now whether or not they were enforced, is another matter.

An interesting article on the question "what if?"
http://www.religionlink.org/tip_040329b.php

What you state here is correct. But what happens when a state passes a law that is unconstitutional? Do you obey the state law or do you follow the constitution? It became part of US law when the Edmunds-Tucker Act was formally adopted, ending all controversy on the subject.

[captusa]

The polygamy train was a very difficult one to stop. There was unfortunately quite a bit of confusion over the first manifesto where Woodruff declared since the law had been upheld as constitutional it was his intent to have the church submit to the law, did that mean that there would be no more polygamy in the USA but it was OK in countries where it was legal, or did that mean that there would be no more polygamy anywhere? The church issued a second manifesto clarifying that all new polygamous marriages were forbidden in the church everywhere. Between the two manifestos there were several polygamous marriages made in Canada, Mexico, and one on an ocean liner in international waters.

But you are right, no one asked any man to abandon a wife and his children by her. But by the middle of the first decade of the 20th century the church was excommunicating those who entered into new marriages, even excommunicated two of its own Apostles. That was for entering into new polygamous marriages. The church didn't start automatic excommunication of anyone who was polygamous until the 1940's, after all those who were polygamous before 1890 had passed on.

I am not completely positive on this but I was informed that Utah's acceptance into the Union involved the state forbidding polygamy.
If that is true then Utah is the only state that cannot legalize polygamy since marriage is not defined in the Constitution the 10th Amendment leaves that decision to the states.

[Fire Watch]

Or how about a change of subject? Or how about taking this debate to another thread?
.

[Alaric]

I am not completely positive on this but I was informed that Utah's acceptance into the Union involved the state forbidding polygamy.
If that is true then Utah is the only state that cannot legalize polygamy since marriage is not defined in the Constitution the 10th Amendment leaves that decision to the states.

You are correct in that it was a condition of acceptance that Utah write it into its constitution. However Utah is not the only state to have had that condition applied. The constitutions of the last few western states, Utah, Arizona, Nevada, Idaho, (and I think New Mexico, but not 100% sure on that) all had marriage definition clauses before acceptance into the union.



edit
note: I'm not quite sure how this line of discussion is off topic, when I look at the opening posts of this thread and see questions about how LDS feel about it I just don't see how the topic can be discussed in a historical vacuum. Historical context is everything, particularly when the current story line of the show deals with the so called "woodruff letter" purported to be from the President of the Church at the time that the Church discontinued the practice of polygamy. The woodruff letter is a fictional letter created by the script writers as a plot device which supposedly states that the church never intended to do away with the practice. Thus any historical information about that time period is completely germane to the subject.

[Ron Jon]

So, episode 10 was the last episode of this season. I'm really surprised they killed off Harry Stanton's character. Or maybe they just want you to think he's dead. :think:

[Missy2]

I guess I could understand being called that if the BoM was the only source of scripture that I believe it, excluding the bible, but it isn't. Yes, I believe he was a prophet. I'm fundamental RLDS.

Kaziah,

Do you identify (or call) yourself "Morman"?

I don't know many FRLDS or RLDS, but the ones I've met always seem to refer to themselves by something other than "Morman". The only ones I've met who use the phrase "Morman" are LDS.

Just wondering...the ones I've met seem to go to great lengths to distinguish themselves from the original "LDS". But I've never known any of them well enough to actually ask.

[Ron Jon]

Kaziah,

Do you identify (or call) yourself "Morman"?

I don't know many FRLDS or RLDS, but the ones I've met always seem to refer to themselves by something other than "Morman". The only ones I've met who use the phrase "Morman" are LDS.

Just wondering...the ones I've met seem to go to great lengths to distinguish themselves from the original "LDS". But I've never known any of them well enough to actually ask.I don't know any LDS members who refer to themselves as "MormAn". Although I have heard them called "Mormons" before. ;)

[Bob_Da_Builder]

I'm LDS and I enjoy the show.

[Missy2]

I don't know any LDS members who refer to themselves as "MormAn". Although I have heard them called "Mormons" before. ;)

:)):)):)):)):redface::redface::redface:

The REALLY bad thing about that is....I ARE ONE!

(Note to self....do NOT take cold medication and then try to type ever again!)

[RayMan]

:)):)):)):)):redface::redface::redface:

The REALLY bad thing about that is....I ARE ONE!

(Note to self....do NOT take cold medication and then try to type ever again!)

Wow. You MorMaids really can't handle your medication. :mrgreen: