Should You Believe In The Trinity?

[Tater]

Should You Believe in the Trinity?

Is It Clearly a Bible Teaching?



IF THE Trinity were true, it should be clearly and consistently presented in the Bible. Why? Because, as the apostles affirmed, the Bible is God's revelation of himself to mankind. And since we need to know God to worship him acceptably, the Bible should be clear in telling us just who he is.

First-century believers accepted the Scriptures as the authentic revelation of God. It was the basis for their beliefs, the final authority. For example, when the apostle Paul preached to people in the city of Beroea, "they received the word with the greatest eagerness of mind, carefully examining the Scriptures daily as to whether these things were so."—Acts 17:10, 11.

What did prominent men of God at that time use as their authority? Acts 17:2, 3 tells us: "According to Paul's custom . . . he reasoned with them from the Scriptures, explaining and proving by references [from the Scriptures]."

Jesus himself set the example in using the Scriptures as the basis for his teaching, repeatedly saying: "It is written." "He interpreted to them things pertaining to himself in all the Scriptures."—Matthew 4:4, 7; Luke 24:27.

Thus Jesus, Paul, and first-century believers used the Scriptures as the foundation for their teaching. They knew that "all Scripture is inspired of God and beneficial for teaching, for reproving, for setting things straight, for disciplining in righteousness, that the man of God may be fully competent, completely equipped for every good work."—2 Timothy 3:16, 17; see also 1 Corinthians 4:6; 1 Thessalonians 2:13; 2 Peter 1:20, 21.

Since the Bible can 'set things straight,' it should clearly reveal information about a matter as fundamental as the Trinity is claimed to be. But do theologians and historians themselves say that it is clearly a Bible teaching?

"Trinity" in the Bible?




A PROTESTANT publication states: "The word Trinity is not found in the Bible . . . It did not find a place formally in the theology of the church till the 4th century." (The Illustrated Bible Dictionary) And a Catholic authority says that the Trinity "is not . . . directly and immediately [the] word of God."—New Catholic Encyclopedia.

The Catholic Encyclopedia also comments: "In Scripture there is as yet no single term by which the Three Divine Persons are denoted together. The word [tri'as] (of which the Latin trinitas is a translation) is first found in Theophilus of Antioch about A. D. 180. . . . Shortly afterwards it appears in its Latin form of trinitas in Tertullian."

However, this is no proof in itself that Tertullian taught the Trinity. The Catholic work Trinitas—A Theological Encyclopedia of the Holy Trinity, for example, notes that some of Tertullian's words were later used by others to describe the Trinity. Then it cautions: "But hasty conclusions cannot be drawn from usage, for he does not apply the words to Trinitarian theology."

Testimony of the Hebrew Scriptures




WHILE the word "Trinity" is not found in the Bible, is at least the idea of the Trinity taught clearly in it? For instance, what do the Hebrew Scriptures ("Old Testament") reveal?

The Encyclopedia of Religion admits: "Theologians today are in agreement that the Hebrew Bible does not contain a doctrine of the Trinity." And the New Catholic Encyclopedia also says: "The doctrine of the Holy Trinity is not taught in the O[ld] T[estament]."

Similarly, in his book The Triune God, Jesuit Edmund Fortman admits: "The Old Testament . . . tells us nothing explicitly or by necessary implication of a Triune God who is Father, Son and Holy Spirit. . . . There is no evidence that any sacred writer even suspected the existence of a [Trinity] within the Godhead. . . . Even to see in [the "Old Testament"] suggestions or foreshadowings or 'veiled signs' of the trinity of persons, is to go beyond the words and intent of the sacred writers."—Italics ours.

An examination of the Hebrew Scriptures themselves will bear out these comments. Thus, there is no clear teaching of a Trinity in the first 39 books of the Bible that make up the true canon of the inspired Hebrew Scriptures.

Testimony of the Greek Scriptures




WELL, then, do the Christian Greek Scriptures ("New Testament") speak clearly of a Trinity?

The Encyclopedia of Religion says: "Theologians agree that the New Testament also does not contain an explicit doctrine of the Trinity."

Jesuit Fortman states: "The New Testament writers . . . give us no formal or formulated doctrine of the Trinity, no explicit teaching that in one God there are three co-equal divine persons. . . . Nowhere do we find any trinitarian doctrine of three distinct subjects of divine life and activity in the same Godhead."

The New Encyclopædia Britannica observes: "Neither the word Trinity nor the explicit doctrine appears in the New Testament."

Bernhard Lohse says in A Short History of Christian Doctrine: "As far as the New Testament is concerned, one does not find in it an actual doctrine of the Trinity."

The New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology similarly states: "The N[ew] T[estament] does not contain the developed doctrine of the Trinity. 'The Bible lacks the express declaration that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are of equal essence' [said Protestant theologian Karl Barth]."

Yale University professor E. Washburn Hopkins affirmed: "To Jesus and Paul the doctrine of the trinity was apparently unknown; . . . they say nothing about it."—Origin and Evolution of Religion.

Historian Arthur Weigall notes: "Jesus Christ never mentioned such a phenomenon, and nowhere in the New Testament does the word 'Trinity' appear. The idea was only adopted by the Church three hundred years after the death of our Lord."—The Paganism in Our Christianity.

Thus, neither the 39 books of the Hebrew Scriptures nor the canon of 27 inspired books of the Christian Greek Scriptures provide any clear teaching of the Trinity.

Taught by Early Christians?




DID the early Christians teach the Trinity? Note the following comments by historians and theologians:

"Primitive Christianity did not have an explicit doctrine of the Trinity such as was subsequently elaborated in the creeds."—The New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology.

"The early Christians, however, did not at first think of applying the [Trinity] idea to their own faith. They paid their devotions to God the Father and to Jesus Christ, the Son of God, and they recognised the . . . Holy Spirit; but there was no thought of these three being an actual Trinity, co-equal and united in One."—The Paganism in Our Christianity.

"At first the Christian faith was not Trinitarian . . . It was not so in the apostolic and sub-apostolic ages, as reflected in the N[ew] T[estament] and other early Christian writings."—Encyclopædia of Religion and Ethics.

"The formulation 'one God in three Persons' was not solidly established, certainly not fully assimilated into Christian life and its profession of faith, prior to the end of the 4th century. . . . Among the Apostolic Fathers, there had been nothing even remotely approaching such a mentality or perspective."—New Catholic Encyclopedia.

What the Ante-Nicene Fathers Taught




THE ante-Nicene Fathers were acknowledged to have been leading religious teachers in the early centuries after Christ's birth. What they taught is of interest.



Irenaeus, who died about 200 C.E., said that the prehuman Jesus had a separate existence from God and was inferior to him. He showed that Jesus is not equal to the "One true and only God," who is "supreme over all, and besides whom there is no other."

Clement of Alexandria, who died about 215 C.E., called Jesus in his prehuman existence "a creature" but called God "the uncreated and imperishable and only true God." He said that the Son "is next to the only omnipotent Father" but not equal to him.

Tertullian, who died about 230 C.E., taught the supremacy of God. He observed: "The Father is different from the Son (another), as he is greater; as he who begets is different from him who is begotten; he who sends, different from him who is sent." He also said: "There was a time when the Son was not. . . . Before all things, God was alone."

Hippolytus, who died about 235 C.E., said that God is "the one God, the first and the only One, the Maker and Lord of all," who "had nothing co-eval [of equal age] with him . . . But he was One, alone by himself; who, willing it, called into being what had no being before," such as the created prehuman Jesus.

"There is no evidence that any sacred writer even suspected the existence of a [Trinity] within the Godhead."—The Triune God


Origen, who died about 250 C.E., said that "the Father and Son are two substances . . . two things as to their essence," and that "compared with the Father, [the Son] is a very small light."

Summing up the historical evidence, Alvan Lamson says in The Church of the First Three Centuries: "The modern popular doctrine of the Trinity . . . derives no support from the language of Justin [Martyr]: and this observation may be extended to all the ante-Nicene Fathers; that is, to all Christian writers for three centuries after the birth of Christ. It is true, they speak of the Father, Son, and . . . holy Spirit, but not as co-equal, not as one numerical essence, not as Three in One, in any sense now admitted by Trinitarians. The very reverse is the fact."

Thus, the testimony of the Bible and of history makes clear that the Trinity was unknown throughout Biblical times and for several centuries thereafter.Comments?

[Hadassah]

Wow. I see so much that is taken out of context that I don't even know where to begin.

[Rhonda]

I do believe in the Trinity....I need not read anything except the Bible to get that..and faith that has been given me by the Holy Spirit...

[10thAmendment]

If I recall, the idea of the Trinity aspect of God was thought of by ancient church historian Tertullian (http://www.tertullian.org). But given the word Trinity doesn't appear anywhere in the Bible, when Trinity discussions come up, I claim my Romans 14 "protections" and avoid Trinity discussions.

God bless you if you do believe in the Trinity aspect of God.
God bless you if you don't believe in the Trinity aspect of God.

[CALady]

John 3:16 ... whosoever believeth in Him shall...

It doesn't say whosoever believeth and can recite a precise definition of the Trinity shall...

[prisonchaplain]

John 3:16 ... whosoever believeth in Him shall...

It doesn't say whosoever believeth and can recite a precise definition of the Trinity shall...

You've broached a question--a narrow, but crucial one--that I have grappled with for some time now: How wrong can we be about God and still be reconciled to him?

Do we have to believe in the Trinity? Do we have to believe in hell? How about predestination? Do we have to be water baptized? If so, how?

To throw out the big example: My church has a set of 16 fundamental doctrines. Four of these we call "cardinal doctrines." In a recent comparison study I did with the Articles of Faith of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, I found that we differ on just about every one of those doctrines. And yet, by and large we live and vote the same. We practice most of the same spiritual disciplines. We offer worship to the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. And, according to Barna, 40% of LDS would lay came to being born again, based on an evangelical Christian definition of the term.

To throw out a small example: The United Pentecostal Church agrees with me on probably 15 of the 16 teachings. Yet, the one we differ on is a "cardinal" doctrine. Socially, politically, and spiritually, we'd likely be identical.

I frankly don't have the answers. I know God wants us to be as right as we can be. He wants us to "contend" for truth. He does not abide "false teaching." Yet, Jesus said to leave the tares with the wheat. He told his disciples, one informed that others were teaching in his name, that if they are not against us, leave them alone.

So, I share what God has revealed to me, listen to what others have to say, try to live my life as Jesus would have me to, and pray that God get the glory for my successes, and that his mercy cover my stumblings.

[ROBERTENEAL]

You've broached a question--a narrow, but crucial one--that I have grappled with for some time now: How wrong can we be about God and still be reconciled to him?

Do we have to believe in the Trinity? Do we have to believe in hell? How about predestination? Do we have to be water baptized? If so, how?

To throw out the big example: My church has a set of 16 fundamental doctrines. Four of these we call "cardinal doctrines." In a recent comparison study I did with the Articles of Faith of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, I found that we differ on just about every one of those doctrines. And yet, by and large we live and vote the same. We practice most of the same spiritual disciplines. We offer worship to the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. And, according to Barna, 40% of LDS would lay came to being born again, based on an evangelical Christian definition of the term.

To throw out a small example: The United Pentecostal Church agrees with me on probably 15 of the 16 teachings. Yet, the one we differ on is a "cardinal" doctrine. Socially, politically, and spiritually, we'd likely be identical.

I frankly don't have the answers. I know God wants us to be as right as we can be. He wants us to "contend" for truth. He does not abide "false teaching." Yet, Jesus said to leave the tares with the wheat. He told his disciples, one informed that others were teaching in his name, that if they are not against us, leave them alone.

So, I share what God has revealed to me, listen to what others have to say, try to live my life as Jesus would have me to, and pray that God get the glory for my successes, and that his mercy cover my stumblings.

I believe that you have mentioned in another post that you attend a Pentecostal Church. So do I (an Assembly of God). So you have probably heard that the "Jesus only" teaching was something that used to be taught in some Pentecostal circles.

I have heard that William Branham was one of these teachers/preachers, and that they used the Gospel of John chapter 1 out of context a lot. 1)"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.2)Hec was in the Beginning with God. 3) All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made.........14)And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father". So, to me, it seems that this text indicates a certain distinction between the Father and the Son. And at the same time, an inseparable unity.

And when Jesus told His disciples that He would be with them "even to the end of the age", He knew that He would be ascending to the Father. So how would He be with them? If the Holy Ghost is with them, Jesus is with them also. He promised that He would send the Spirit. Acts 2 is an account of the Day of Pentecost experience. Again, there is a distinction between the Son and the Spirit. And at the same time, an inseparable unity.

I have heard that the Trinity of God bears some similarities to the Trinity of Man. A man (or woman) has three parts; a body, a soul, and a spirit. In this comparison, the Father is compared to the soul because His will is sovereign. The Son is compared to the body, because he physically does the will of the Father. The remaining comparison (Spirit) is obvious.

I don't know if this comparison is totally valid, but it makes sense to me. And I know that the Word "Trinity" is not in the Bible. But I can't think of a more scripturally valid way to teach about the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. All three are for real. And inseparable..

[prisonchaplain]

I believe that you have mentioned in another post that you attend a Pentecostal Church. So do I (an Assembly of God).

Let's just say Robert agrees with all 16 of our fundamental doctrines, all four of our cardinal doctrines, and has the same last name. :angel: :angel: :D :D :D

[blazer]

Yes, I very much believe in the Father the Son and The Holy Ghost!

[Snow]

Wow. I see so much that is taken out of context that I don't even know where to begin.

So you're not going to begin at all?

[Snow]

You've broached a question--a narrow, but crucial one--that I have grappled with for some time now: How wrong can we be about God and still be reconciled to him?

Do we have to believe in the Trinity? Do we have to believe in hell? How about predestination?

Salvation via correct understanding of doctrine? Hmmm.

[Fire Watch]

Ok Tater, you've told us what you dont believe, so now please tell us what you do.

[Fire Watch]

Salvation via correct understanding of doctrine? Hmmm.
Why pick and choose some little snippet of his post to try and start an argument over something he really didn't imply? You totally ignore the following statement by PC which would end your argument before it began...

So, I share what God has revealed to me, listen to what others have to say, try to live my life as Jesus would have me to, and pray that God get the glory for my successes, and that his mercy cover my stumblings.

[MPK]

You are correct here. The Trinity is a false religious teaching that dishonors the creator. It is NOT taught in the scriptures. Jehovah is the almighty, Jesus Christ is his son and the holy spirit is Jehovahs active force that he uses to accomplish his will.

[HisServant]

You are correct here. The Trinity is a false religious teaching that dishonors the creator. It is NOT taught in the scriptures. Jehovah is the almighty, Jesus Christ is his son and the holy spirit is Jehovahs active force that he uses to accomplish his will.

If we really want to know why not forget what we think, forget what our "religion" teaches and go right to God's Word. Lets start at John 1.
In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God. So the Word is with God and Is God.

The Word became flesh and dwelt among us. This is Jesus. So the Word which is God, becomes flesh and is called Jesus. This is immanuel. God with us which Isa 9:6 foretold. Therefore Jesus is God come in the flesh.

So is this what the Bible says?

[Iessaioi]

Should You Believe in the Trinity?

Is It Clearly a Bible Teaching?

Comments?Yes, plagiarism is just as bad as bearing false witness. Which is exactly what you've done. Do two wrongs make a right? Do you think that the ends justify the means?

You are a plagiarist and apparently are incapable of independent thought! Why don't you come up with your own logical arguments rather than copy them verbatim from the Watchtower's website? You are pathetic.

http://watchtower.org/e/ti/article_03.htm

"Copyright © 2006 Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society of Pennsylvania. All rights reserved."
http://watchtower.org/copyright.htm

[Iessaioi]

What? No response from Tater? What's the matter Tater, what are you? Just a one hit wonder?

[Snow]

Why pick and choose some little snippet of his post to try and start an argument over something he really didn't imply? You totally ignore the following statement by PC which would end your argument before it began...

The good chaplain and I have been having this conversation or something similar off and on for a long time (from another board before I invited him over). Trust me, he isn't offended and will soon offer up a thoughtful and more in-depth response (that I'll probably still disagree with).

[Snow]

I know the day is early but I am seeing almost a complete lack of support for the concept of the trinity in the scriptures and early christianity.

Since the idea is so foundational to much of modern christianity, why do you suppose that no NT author thought it worth mentioning clearly?

[Fire Watch]

I know the day is early but I am seeing almost a complete lack of support for the concept of the trinity in the scriptures and early christianity.

Since the idea is so foundational to much of modern christianity, why do you suppose that no NT author thought it worth mentioning clearly?
You're speaking my language..lol.

[Warrior4God]

Wow. I see so much that is taken out of context that I don't even know where to begin.

begin

[Warrior4God]

If we really want to know why not forget what we think, forget what our "religion" teaches and go right to God's Word. Lets start at John 1.
In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God. So the Word is with God and Is God.

The Word became flesh and dwelt among us. This is Jesus. So the Word which is God, becomes flesh and is called Jesus. This is immanuel. God with us which Isa 9:6 foretold. Therefore Jesus is God come in the flesh.

So is this what the Bible says?

John 1:1
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. (NIV)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


1. It is imperative that the serious student of the Bible come to a basic understanding of logos, which is translated as “Word” in John 1:1. Most Trinitarians believe that the word logos refers directly to Jesus Christ, so in most versions of John logos is capitalized and translated “Word” (some versions even write “Jesus Christ” in John 1:1). However, a study of the Greek word logos shows that it occurs more than 300 times in the New Testament, and in both the NIV and the KJV it is capitalized only 7 times (and even those versions disagree on exactly when to capitalize it). When a word that occurs more than 300 times is capitalized fewer than 10 times, it is obvious that when to capitalize and when not to capitalize is a translators’ decision based on their particular understanding of Scripture.

As it is used throughout Scripture, logos has a very wide range of meanings along two basic lines of thought. One is the mind and products of the mind like “reason,” (thus “logic” is related to logos) and the other is the expression of that reason as a “word,” “saying,” “command” etc. The Bible itself demonstrates the wide range of meaning logos has, and some of the ways it is translated in Scripture are: account, appearance, book, command, conversation, eloquence, flattery, grievance, heard, instruction, matter, message, ministry, news, proposal, question, reason, reasonable, reply, report, rule, rumor, said, say, saying, sentence, speaker, speaking, speech, stories, story, talk, talking, teaching, testimony, thing, things, this, truths, what, why, word and words.

Any good Greek lexicon will also show this wide range of meaning
http://www.biblicalunitarian.com/modules.php?name=Content&pa=showpage&pid=85

the very same Chapter says no man hath seen God

[Warrior4God]

You're speaking my language..lol.

Rick likes this stuff:D

[Warrior4God]

I know the day is early but I am seeing almost a complete lack of support for the concept of the trinity in the scriptures and early christianity.

Since the idea is so foundational to much of modern christianity, why do you suppose that no NT author thought it worth mentioning clearly?

What denomination are you?

[MPK]

If we really want to know why not forget what we think, forget what our "religion" teaches and go right to God's Word. Lets start at John 1.
In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God. So the Word is with God and Is God.

The Word became flesh and dwelt among us. This is Jesus. So the Word which is God, becomes flesh and is called Jesus. This is immanuel. God with us which Isa 9:6 foretold. Therefore Jesus is God come in the flesh.

So is this what the Bible says?

No, this is not what the Bible teaches. John 1:1 says "In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was a God." You cannot be with someone and at the same time be that person.
Jesus is the SON of God not God himself. Jesus is refered to as a God because aside from his father Jehovah there is no other individual with more power than him. He is refered to as the "only-begotten" God.
Jesus is therefore a God in the flesh not the Almighty God, that term is only reserved for his father Jehovah who Jesus is subject to.

[Warrior4God]

The trinity however widely used by most doctrines within denominations never existed before 325ad and is based on a few mistranslated or misinterpreted scripture and has no basis or solid foundation unless you add other books into the bible you will not see it.

In fact the beauty of Christ being the second Adam is incredible
had Jesus been God then we are still awaiting the messiah

Its easy for God to walk perfect and no miracle about God raising himself who was dead 3 days??

God was dead? if he was dead who raised him
The bible is not some mystery we just accept it is truth because the mystery has been revealed1. God is all wise, but Jesus grew in wisdom.

Luke 2:52
And Jesus grew in wisdom and stature, and in favor with God and men.

Hebrews 5:8 and 9
(8) Although he was a son, he learned obedience from what he suffered
(9) and, once made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him.

2. God has limitless knowledge, but Jesus had limited knowledge.

Mark 13:32 (RVS)
“But of that day or that hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.

3. God is, and always has been, perfect, but Jesus needed to attain perfection through his suffering.

Hebrews 2:10
In bringing many sons to glory, it was fitting that God, for whom and through whom everything exists, should make the author of their salvation perfect through suffering.

4. Jesus received holy spirit at his baptism. If Jesus were God and the holy spirit were God, then God would have been anointed with God by God. What purpose would this have served? We know why people are anointed, but what power could God give to Himself? Jesus was given the gift of holy spirit, the same gift he now gives to believers today.

Mark 1:9-11
(9) At that time Jesus came from Nazareth in Galilee and was baptized by John in the Jordan.
(10) As Jesus was coming up out of the water, he saw heaven being torn open and the Spirit descending on him like a dove.
(11) And a voice came from heaven: “You are my son, whom I love; with you I am well pleased.”

5. God cannot be tempted, but Jesus was tempted in every way just as we are.

James 1:13 (RSV)
Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am tempted by God”; for God cannot be tempted with evil and He himself tempts no one;

Hebrews 4:15
For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are—yet was without sin.

6. God does not need to be strengthened, but Jesus did.

Luke 22:43 and 44
(43) An angel from heaven appeared to him and strengthened him.
(44) And being in anguish, he prayed more earnestly, and his sweat was like drops of blood falling to the ground.

7. God cannot die. Scripture tells us that God is “immortal,” which means “not subject to death,” but Jesus died.

Romans 1:22 and 23
(22) Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools
(23) and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles.

8. Jesus is not ashamed to call us his “brothers,” because we have the same Father he does. The Bible teaches that we are “brothers” of Jesus and “sons of God.” Scripture never says or even infers that we are “brothers of God.”

Hebrews 2:10 and 11
(10) In bringing many sons to glory, it was fitting that God, for whom and through whom everything exists, should make the author of their salvation perfect through suffering.
(11) Both the one who makes men holy and those who are made holy are of the same family. So Jesus is not ashamed to call them brothers.

9. We are commissioned to do “greater works” than Jesus. This would be absurd if Jesus were God, because then we disciples would be commissioned to do greater works than God does.

John 14:12 (KJV)
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

10. Scripture says that God is spirit; yet even after his resurrection Jesus said of himself that he was not a spirit, but flesh and bone.

John 4:23
God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in spirit and in truth.

Luke 24:39 (KJV)
Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

11. The Bible says that God is not a man, but Jesus is very plainly called a man many times in Scripture.

Numbers 23:19a
God is not a man, that he should lie, nor a son of man, that he should change his mind….

John 8:39 and 40
(39) “…If you were Abraham’s children,” said Jesus, “then you would do the things Abraham did.
(40) As it is, you are determined to kill me, a man who has told you the truth that I heard from God….

Acts 2:22
“Men of Israel, listen to this: Jesus of Nazareth was a man accredited by God to you by miracles, wonders and signs, which God did among you through him, as you yourselves know.

Acts 17:31
For He has set a day when He will judge the world with justice by the man He has appointed. He has given proof of this to all men by raising him from the dead.”

1 Timothy 2:5
For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,

12. Jesus is called the “son of God” more than 50 times in the Bible. Not once is he called “God the Son.”

13. God and Jesus have two separate and distinct wills. If Jesus were God, then his will would always be the same as God’s. Scripture tells us that it wasn’t.

Luke 22:39-42
(39) Jesus went out as usual to the Mount of Olives, and his disciples followed him.
(40) On reaching the place, he said to them, “Pray that you will not fall into temptation.”
(41) He withdrew about a stone’s throw beyond them, knelt down and prayed,
(42) “Father, if you are willing, take this cup from me; yet not my will, but yours be done.”

14. It is important to Jesus for us to know who he is, just as it was important for him to know who his disciples thought he was almost 2,000 years ago.

Matthew 16:13-17
(13) When Jesus came to the region of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, “Who do people say the Son of Man is?”
(14) They replied, “Some say John the Baptist; others say Elijah; and still others, Jeremiah or one of the prophets.”
(15) “But what about you?” he asked. “Who do you say I am?”
(16) Simon Peter answered, “You are the Christ, the son of the living God.”
(17) Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven.

15. God has no mother. Jesus did have a mother.

Nehemiah 9:5a
And the Levites-Jeshua, Kadmiel, Bani, Hashabneiah, Sherebiah, Hodiah, Shebaniah and Pethahiah-said: “Stand up and praise the LORD your God, who is from everlasting to everlasting.”

John 2:1-3
(1) On the third day a wedding took place at Cana in Galilee. Jesus' mother was there,
(2) and Jesus and his disciples had also been invited to the wedding.
(3) When the wine was gone, Jesus' mother said to him, “They have no more wine.”

Who do you say he is?

[Fire Watch]

No, this is not what the Bible teaches. John 1:1 says "In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was a God." You cannot be with someone and at the same time be that person.
Jesus is the SON of God not God himself. Jesus is refered to as a God because aside from his father Jehovah there is no other individual with more power than him. He is refered to as the "only-begotten" God.
Jesus is therefore a God in the flesh not the Almighty God, that term is only reserved for his father Jehovah who Jesus is subject to.
Oh yeah?

Jehovah

1 Almighty--Genesis 17:1
2 I AM--Exodus3:14-16
3 Rock--Psalm 18:2; 28:1
4 Horn of Salvation--Psalm 18:2
5 Shepherd--Psalm 23:1; Isaiah 40:10-11
6 King of Glory--Psalm 24:7-10
7 LightPsalm--27:1; Isaiah 60:19
8 Salvation--Psalm 27:1; Isaiah 12:2
9 Lord of lords--Psalm 136:3
10 Holy OneIsaiah--12:6
11 Lawgiver--Isaiah 33:22
12 Judge--Isaiah 33:22
13 First and Last--Isaiah 41:4; 44:6; 48:12
14 Only Savior--Isaiah 43:11; 45:21; 60:16
15 Giver of Spiritual Water--Isaiah 44:3
16 King of Israel--Isaiah 44:6
17 Only Creator--Isaiah 44:24; 45:8; 48:13
18 Only Just God--Isaiah 45:21
19 Redeemer--Isaiah 54:5; 60:16

Jesus

1. Almighty--Revelation 1:82
2. I am--John 8:
3. Rock--I Corinthians 10:4
4. Horn of Salvation--Luke 1:69
5. Good Shepherd, Great Shepherd, Chief Shepherd--Hebrews 13:20; I Peter 5:4
6. Lord of Glory--I Corinthians 2:8
7. Light--John 1:4-9; John 8:12; Revelation 21:23
8. Only Salvation--Acts 4:10-12
9. Lord of lords--Revelation 19:16
10. Holy One--Acts 2:27
11. Testator of the First Testament (the Law)--Hebrews 9:14-17
12. Judge--Micah 5:1; Acts 10:42
13. Alpha and Omega, Beginning and Ending, First and Last--Revelation 1:8; 22:13
14. Savior--Titus 2:13; 3:6
15. Giver of Living Water--John 4:10-14; 7:38-39
16. King of Israel, King of kings--John 1:49; Revelation 19:16
17. Creator of everything--John 1:3; Colossians 1:16
18. Just One--Acts 7:52
19. Redeemer--Galatians 3:13; Revelation 5:9

and more...

Name

1. Jehovah-jireh (provider)
2. Jehovah-rapha (healer)
3. Jehovah-nissi (banner, victory)
4. Jehovah-m'kaddesh (sanctifier)
5. Jehovah-shalom (peace)
6. Jehovah-sabaoth (Lord of hosts)
7. Jehovah-elyon (most high)
8. Jehovah-raah (shepherd)
9. Jehovah-hoseenu (maker)
10. Jehovah-tsidkenu (Righteousness)
11. Jehovah-shammah (present)

Compare to what was said of Jesus..

1. Provider--Hebrews 10:10-12
2. Healer--James 5:14-15
3. Victory--I Corinthians 15:57
4. Sanctifier--Ephesians 5:26
5. Peace--John 14:27
6. Lord of Hosts--James 5:4-7
7. Most High--Luke 1:32, 76, 78
8. Shepherd--John 10:11
9. Maker--John 1:3
10. Righteousness--I Corinthians 1:30
11. Ever Present One--Matthew 28:20

[Warrior4God]

Oh yeah?

Jehovah

1 Almighty--Genesis 17:1
2 I AM--Exodus3:14-16
3 Rock--Psalm 18:2; 28:1
4 Horn of Salvation--Psalm 18:2
5 Shepherd--Psalm 23:1; Isaiah 40:10-11
6 King of Glory--Psalm 24:7-10
7 LightPsalm--27:1; Isaiah 60:19
8 Salvation--Psalm 27:1; Isaiah 12:2
9 Lord of lords--Psalm 136:3
10 Holy OneIsaiah--12:6
11 Lawgiver--Isaiah 33:22
12 Judge--Isaiah 33:22
13 First and Last--Isaiah 41:4; 44:6; 48:12
14 Only Savior--Isaiah 43:11; 45:21; 60:16
15 Giver of Spiritual Water--Isaiah 44:3
16 King of Israel--Isaiah 44:6
17 Only Creator--Isaiah 44:24; 45:8; 48:13
18 Only Just God--Isaiah 45:21
19 Redeemer--Isaiah 54:5; 60:16

Jesus

1. Almighty--Revelation 1:82
2. I am--John 8:
3. Rock--I Corinthians 10:4
4. Horn of Salvation--Luke 1:69
5. Good Shepherd, Great Shepherd, Chief Shepherd--Hebrews 13:20; I Peter 5:4
6. Lord of Glory--I Corinthians 2:8
7. Light--John 1:4-9; John 8:12; Revelation 21:23
8. Only Salvation--Acts 4:10-12
9. Lord of lords--Revelation 19:16
10. Holy One--Acts 2:27
11. Testator of the First Testament (the Law)--Hebrews 9:14-17
12. Judge--Micah 5:1; Acts 10:42
13. Alpha and Omega, Beginning and Ending, First and Last--Revelation 1:8; 22:13
14. Savior--Titus 2:13; 3:6
15. Giver of Living Water--John 4:10-14; 7:38-39
16. King of Israel, King of kings--John 1:49; Revelation 19:16
17. Creator of everything--John 1:3; Colossians 1:16
18. Just One--Acts 7:52
19. Redeemer--Galatians 3:13; Revelation 5:9

and more...

Name

1. Jehovah-jireh (provider)
2. Jehovah-rapha (healer)
3. Jehovah-nissi (banner, victory)
4. Jehovah-m'kaddesh (sanctifier)
5. Jehovah-shalom (peace)
6. Jehovah-sabaoth (Lord of hosts)
7. Jehovah-elyon (most high)
8. Jehovah-raah (shepherd)
9. Jehovah-hoseenu (maker)
10. Jehovah-tsidkenu (Righteousness)
11. Jehovah-shammah (present)

Compare to what was said of Jesus..

1. Provider--Hebrews 10:10-12
2. Healer--James 5:14-15
3. Victory--I Corinthians 15:57
4. Sanctifier--Ephesians 5:26
5. Peace--John 14:27
6. Lord of Hosts--James 5:4-7
7. Most High--Luke 1:32, 76, 78
8. Shepherd--John 10:11
9. Maker--John 1:3
10. Righteousness--I Corinthians 1:30
11. Ever Present One--Matthew 28:20

Yes very beautiful is the Word of God
Now show me where Jesus Christ says anything other then being the Son of God .Because there are in the New Testament seventeen passages, wherein the Father is styled one or only God, while there is not a single passage in which the Son is so styled.

Because there are 320 passages in which the Father is absolutely, and by way of eminence, called God; while there is not one in which the Son is thus called.

Because there are 105 passages in which the Father is denominated God, with peculiarly high titles and epithets, whereas the Son is not once denominated.

Because there are 90 passages wherein it is declared that all prayers and praises ought to be offered to Him, and that everything ought to be ultimately directed to his honor and glory; while of the Son no such declaration is ever made.

Because of 1,300 passages in the New Testament wherein the word God is mentioned, not one necessarily implies the existence of more than one person in the Godhead, or that this one is any other than the Father.

Because the passages wherein the Son is declared, positively, or by clearest implication, to be subordinate to the Father, deriving his being from Him, receiving from Him his divine power, and acting in all things wholly according to His will, are in number above 300.

Because, in a word, the supremacy of the Father, and the inferiority of the Son, is the simple, unembarrassed, and current doctrine of the Bible; whereas, that of their equality or identity is clothed in mystery, encumbered with difficulties, and dependent, at the best, upon few passages for support.

[DRS]

Rick your cutting and pasting is not different then the OP, there has been much discussion on some the verses you have posted for example Exodus 3:14

[Fire Watch]

Rick you your cutting and pasting is not different then the OP, there has been much discussion on some the verses you have posted for example Exodus 3:14
There is no cutting and pasting here. I resent your accusation. Now, if you want to get to the scripture posted, let's begin. If you want to discuss copy and paste jobs, perhaps you should talk to your friend Warrior above.

[Hadassah]

begin

Now I feel like I need to salute! ;) :mrgreen:

Seriously though, I just saw your post and I will respond to the OP. It just won't be today. I have to leave for work in about 20 minutes.

[Warrior4God]

Now I feel like I need to salute! ;) :mrgreen:

Seriously though, I just saw your post and I will respond to the OP. It just won't be today. I have to leave for work in about 20 minutes.

awww I was expecting you to begin is all wasnt meaning to sound like i was telling you or anything forgive me:pray:

[Tater]

Oh my......I created this thread last night and read all the posts just now.Wow.Well,as to my being accused of being a pleigarist,yes,I quoted from watchtower.org,the only official site for Jehovah's Witnesses,which I am proud to be.All of our literature and information is available for everyone to use and try and reach people.The article that I quoted from puts everything much more eloquently than I can in my own words.I simply wanted a clear,concise explanation of what I believe to be seen by all people interested in studying what the BIBLE says about matters,just to get the ball rolling.All of my responses here on out will be in my words.Other than the guy who wanted to start a fight over this,everyone of you seem very intelligent and I am really enjoying reading all of your thoughts.Now that that's out of the way...

[Hadassah]

awww I was expecting you to begin is all wasnt meaning to sound like i was telling you or anything forgive me:pray:

I was teasing you, that's all. That's why I put the wink and big smile afterwards. There's nothing to forgive you for. It's all good.

8 more minutes before I have to leave for work, UGH!

[Hadassah]

Oh my......I created this thread last night and read all the posts just now.Wow.Well,as to my being accused of being a pleigarist,yes,I quoted from watchtower.org,the only official site for Jehovah's Witnesses,which I am proud to be.All of our literature and information is available for everyone to use and try and reach people.The article that I quoted from puts everything much more eloquently than I can in my own words.I simply wanted a clear,concise explanation of what I believe to be seen by all people interested in studying what the BIBLE says about matters,just to get the ball rolling.All of my responses here on out will be in my words.Other than the guy who wanted to start a fight over this,everyone of you seem very intelligent and I am really enjoying reading all of your thoughts.Now that that's out of the way...

when you quote from a website, just post the link to it, that's all. Just as you would give the name and author of a book you quoted. :D

[Iessaioi]

Oh my......I created this thread last night and read all the posts just now.Wow.Well,as to my being accused of being a pleigarist,yes,I quoted from watchtower.org,the only official site for Jehovah's Witnesses,which I am proud to be.All of our literature and information is available for everyone to use and try and reach people.The article that I quoted from puts everything much more eloquently than I can in my own words.I simply wanted a clear,concise explanation of what I believe to be seen by all people interested in studying what the BIBLE says about matters,just to get the ball rolling.All of my responses here on out will be in my words.Other than the guy who wanted to start a fight over this,everyone of you seem very intelligent and I am really enjoying reading all of your thoughts.Now that that's out of the way...So, you think I'm not intelligent because I accused you of plagiarism (and rightfully so)? Look, I don't have a problem with people quoting from the web, just do the honest thing and give credit where credit is due. If you're going to quote from the Watchtower's website, then copy/paste the website address from where you are getting your information. Otherwise, you ARE breaking copyright law.

[Warrior4God]

There is no cutting and pasting here. I resent your accusation. Now, if you want to get to the scripture posted, let's begin. If you want to discuss copy and paste jobs, perhaps you should talk to your friend Warrior above.

I will be sure to give adress if I cut and paste I was typing from a few differents points of view above
but will be happy to give you a site that can shed some light to all who wish

[Tater]

John 3:16 ... whosoever believeth in Him shall...

It doesn't say whosoever believeth and can recite a precise definition of the Trinity shall...


James 2:19-You believe there is one God,do you?You are doing quite well.And yet the demons believe and shudder.

vs.24-You see that a man is to be declared righteous by works,and not by faith alone.

vs.26-Faith without works is dead.

Matthew 7:21-23-Not everyone saying to me,'Lord,Lord',will enter into the Kingdom of the heavens,but the one doing the will of my father who is in the heavens will.Many will say to me in that day,'Lord,Lord,did we not prophesy in your name,and expel demons in your name,and perform many powerful works in your name?'And yet then I will confess to them:I never knew you!Get away from me you workers of lawlessness.

[Warrior4God]

I have spent 30 years wrestling with the trinity doctrine spent most of them researching aspects of it wanting nothing more then the truth of who Jesus Christ was.being told 30 years ago I was of the devil if I did not accept it it was just a mystery..I didnt buy that

[Tater]

So, you think I'm not intelligent because I accused you of plagiarism (and rightfully so)? Look, I don't have a problem with people quoting from the web, just do the honest thing and give credit where credit is due. If you're going to quote from the Watchtower's website, then copy/paste the website address from where you are getting your information. Otherwise, you ARE breaking copyright law.

I apologize for the insult,and I agree.I'll be sure to do that in the future.

[Iessaioi]

James 2:19-You believe there is one God,do you?You are doing quite well.And yet the demons believe and shudder.

vs.24-You see that a man is to be declared righteous by works,and not by faith alone.

vs.26-Faith without works is dead.

Matthew 7:21-23-Not everyone saying to me,'Lord,Lord',will enter into the Kingdom of the heavens,but the one doing the will of my father who is in the heavens will.Many will say to me in that day,'Lord,Lord,did we not prophesy in your name,and expel demons in your name,and perform many powerful works in your name?'And yet then I will confess to them:I never knew you!Get away from me you workers of lawlessness.If you are a Jehovah's Witness, you have no heavenly hope. So what do you care about who will and who won't enter heaven?

[Fire Watch]

If you are a Jehovah's Witness, you have no heavenly hope. So what do you care about who will and who won't enter heaven?
You should probably tone it down. You may be in violation of this forums respect policy which can be found here (http://hannity.com/forum/showthread.php?t=68516). If found in violation of the special rules of this forum, you can be banned.

[Iessaioi]

You should probably tone it down. You may be in violation of this forums respect policy which can be found here (http://hannity.com/forum/showthread.php?t=68516). If found in violation of the special rules of this forum, you can be banned.Unless he is part of the 144,000 then what I said is true. These Jehovah's Witnesses know exactly what I'm alluding to and I am not breaking the forum rules of respect.

[Tater]

If you are a Jehovah's Witness, you have no heavenly hope. So what do you care about who will and who won't enter heaven?


I am not a member of the 144,000.But why do I care?Jesus commissioned all of his followers to preach and teach the truth to others.Did he discriminate against those who have a heavenly hope and those who have the earthly hope?

[Iessaioi]

I agree 100 percent.And if the idea of a Trinity is fundamental,what about Hellfire and eternal suffering and the immortality of the soul?The scriptures people use to back these up are only mentioned in passing in the Scriptures.Wouldn't Jesus of all people have emphasized "Don't go to church and you'll burn for eternity?"Ahhh, yes. And let's not forget the unbiblical prohibition of blood transfusions. Yes, a modern medical marvel that literally saves millions. And yet, the Watchtower (a man made organization) prohibits it. Why?

[Iessaioi]

I am not a member of the 144,000.But why do I care?Jesus commissioned all of his followers to preach and teach the truth to others.Did he discriminate against those who have a heavenly hope and those who have the earthly hope?So you admit that you don't believe you are going to heaven? You admit that you are not born-again? You believe you are "commissioned . . . to preach and teach the truth to others"? Then speak plainly and truthfully sir.

[Free_Thinker]

I'm not sure whether or not believing in the Trinity has anything to do with being saved from sinning. If believing in the trinity helps one to keep God's commandments, then I see no harm in it. However, if believing in the Trinity is about worshiping three gods, then I might see a problem with breaking the first commandment.

Considering the Trinity can not be understood by man, then I see no reason for me to believe in it

I see one God, his begotten son, and our communication with God. I see three completely different things where there is no confusion about what they are. I understand them perfectly. When one needs to make all three of these be equal to God, then I could very easily see how it would become rather complicated and hard to understand.

:flag:

[Tater]

Well,that is a topic for another day,a new thread I will be more than happy to start.I realized my last remark,that you quoted,was way off topic and needed threads of their own,hence the deletion.But just as a quick reply,Christians are commanded to "abstain from blood."If your doctor told you to abstain from alcohol,would you inject it in your body?Sure,the procedure saves millions of lives,but look at the large amount of harm it does as well.And bloodless surgery is becoming a mainstream procedure,and let's face it,a surgeon who can perform with no blood loss as opposed to one who loses pints of it?No thanks,and no thanks to the diseases that may be contained in blood.But please wait on further arguments until I can start a thread just for this.

[Iessaioi]

I look forward to your new thread.

[DRS]

If you are a Jehovah's Witness, you have no heavenly hope. So what do you care about who will and who won't enter heaven?

Why do you say that?

[Tater]

So you admit that you don't believe you are going to heaven? You admit that you are not born-again? You believe you are "commissioned . . . to preach and teach the truth to others"? Then speak plainly and truthfully sir.

Think about it-what was the original purpose for mankind?In Genesis,are we told that humans would live,die,then go somewhere else?NO.We were originally meant to live forever here on earth and populate it.I have an earthly hope.The whole theme of the bible is God's Kingdom and it ending wickedness and ruling over man on a Paradise earth.

[Warrior4God]

The Athanasian Creed
read carefully to note not believing this keeps one from eternal life
This is a Latin creed used by the Western Church, unknown to the Eastern Church until the 12th century. It is generally accepted that the Athanasian Creed was not written by Athanasius (who died in 373), but was probably composed in southern France during the fifth century. It is worthy of note that this creed not only helped establish the Trinity as “orthodox doctrine,” but it made belief in it a requirement for salvation and anathematized those who reject it, as will be evident in the text that follows:
The Athanasian Creed

Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the Catholic Faith. Which Faith except everyone do keep whole and undefiled, without doubt he will perish everlastingly. And the Catholic faith is this: That we worship One God in Trinity and Trinity in Unity, neither confounding the Persons, nor dividing the Substance.

For there is one Person of the Father, another of the Son, another of the Holy Ghost. But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, is all one, the Glory equal, the Majesty co-eternal. Such as the Father is, such is the Son, and such is the Holy Ghost. The Father uncreate, the Son uncreate, and the Holy Spirit uncreate.

The Father incomprehensible, the Son incomprehensible, the Holy Ghost incomprehensible. The Father eternal, the Son eternal, and the Holy Ghost eternal. And yet they are not three eternals but one eternal. As also there are not three incomprehensibles, nor three uncreated, but one uncreated, and one incomprehensible. So likewise the Father is Almighty, the Son Almighty, and the Holy Ghost Almighty. And yet they are not three Almighties but one Almighty.

So the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Ghost is God. And yet they are not three Gods, but one God. So likewise the Father is Lord, the Son Lord, and the Holy Ghost Lord. And yet not three Lords, but one Lord. For like as we are compelled by the Christian verity to acknowledge every Person by himself to be both God and Lord, So are we forbidden by the Catholic Religion, to say, There be three Gods, or three Lords.

The Father is made of none, neither created nor begotten. The Son is of the Father alone, not made, nor created, but begotten. The Holy Ghost is of the Father and of the Son, neither made, nor created, nor begotten, but proceeding. So there is one Father, not three Fathers; one Son, not three Sons; one Holy Ghost, not three Holy Ghosts. And in this Trinity none is afore, or after other; none is greater, or less than another; But the whole three Persons are co-eternal together and co-equal. So that in all things, as is aforesaid, the Unity in Trinity and the Trinity in Unity is to be worshiped. He therefore that will be saved must thus think of the Trinity.

Furthermore, it is necessary to everlasting salvation that he also believe rightly the Incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ. For the right Faith is, that we believe and confess, that our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is God and Man; God, of the Substance of the Father, begotten before the worlds; and Man, of the Substance of his Mother, born in the world; Perfect God and perfect Man, of a reasonable soul and human flesh subsisting; Equal to the Father, as touching His Godhead; and inferior to the Father, as touching his Manhood. Who although he be God and Man, yet he is not two, but one Christ; One, not by conversion of the Godhead into flesh, but by taking of the Manhood into God; One altogether; not by confusion of Substance, but by unity of Person.

For as the reasonable soul and flesh is one man, so God and Man is one Christ; Who suffered for our salvation, descended into hell, rose again the third day from the dead. He ascended into heaven, he sitteth on the right hand of the Father, God Almighty, from whence he shall come to judge the quick and the dead. At whose coming all men shall rise again with their bodies and shall give account for their own works. And they that have done good shall go into life everlasting; and they that have done evil into everlasting fire. This is the Catholic Faith, which except a man believe faithfully, he cannot be saved.

There has never been one piece of literature or writing IMHO that is more wrong in light of Gods Word sure some truth is there but it says opposite in many places then what Jesus said......Im sticking with Jesus on this one


http://www.biblicalunitarian.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=65

[Iessaioi]

Why do you say that?Well, unless things have changed, when I was being taught by a nice JW couple, I was told that our hope was in the New Earth (Paradise Earth) and that only the 144,000 would be in heaven with Jehovah. Was I taught wrong?

[Warrior4God]

Let me make clear I am not a follower of LDS
I would be classified as a non denominational Christian if I was to classify myself

[Iessaioi]

Think about it-what was the original purpose for mankind?In Genesis,are we told that humans would live,die,then go somewhere else?NO.We were originally meant to live forever here on earth and populate it.I have an earthly hope.The whole theme of the bible is God's Kingdom and it ending wickedness and ruling over man on a Paradise earth.Thank you. I appreciate your candor and for agreeing with me.

[DRS]

Well, unless things have changed, when I was being taught by a nice JW couple, I was told that our hope was in the New Earth (Paradise Earth) and that only the 144,000 would be in heaven with Jehovah. Was I taught wrong?

No, so we believe some go to heaven and others live here on the Earth.

[Iessaioi]

Let me make clear I am not a follower of LDS
I would be classified as a non denominational Christian if I was to classify myselfThat's funny, you struck me as a Jehovah's Witness. How do you feel about blood transfusions?

[Iessaioi]

No, so we believe some go to heaven and others live here on the Earth.Please, only "some"? Let's speak in terms of "majority" and "minority". Do you believe the majority of those, who are not destroyed, will be recreated on Paradise Earth and the minority (144,000) will be in heaven? Or the other way around?

[DRS]

Ahhh, yes. And let's not forget the unbiblical prohibition of blood transfusions. Yes, a modern medical marvel that literally saves millions. And yet, the Watchtower (a man made organization) prohibits it. Why?

You mean the three scriptures found in the bible on abstaining from blood?

You know the role blood has played throughtout the bible and in the redeption for mankind right?

[Warrior4God]

That's funny, you struck me as a Jehovah's Witness. How do you feel about blood transfusions?

If I need blood for anything

FILLERUP WITH HI TEST

[DRS]

Please, only "some"? Let's speak in terms of "majority" and "minority". Do you believe the majority of those, who are not destroyed, will be recreated on Paradise Earth and the minority (144,000) will be in heaven? Or the other way around?

144,000 is a minority.

What is their role in heaven?

[Iessaioi]

You mean the three scriptures found in the bible on abstaining from blood?

You know the role blood has played throughtout the bible and in the redeption for mankind right?I believe Tater is going to create a new thread on this subject. We can discuss it there if you'd like. But I will say that when the Bible talks about "abstaining" from blood it is always talking about eating or drinking it. It never talks about blood transfusions.

[Iessaioi]

144,000 is a minority.

What is their role in heaven?Ruling with Christ?

[Tater]

I believe Tater is going to create a new thread on this subject. We can discuss it there if you'd like. But I will say that when the Bible talks about "abstaining" from blood it is always talking about eating or drinking it. It never talks about blood transfusions.

There were no blood tranfusions in Jesus' time.But if there were?I believe it would be included.People who cannot eat are fed by IV.Blood of any kind,I believe,should never be ingested,by any means.

[DRS]

Ruling with Christ?

Right co rulers and priests.

Now inside the nation of Israel was everyone ruling, or was there a class who served in this role as priest and a family line for kingship?

[Warrior4God]

The Trinity

What Is It And Where Did It Come From?


The debate over the Trinity started relatively late in Christian history. It was not until the fourth century that many theologians and bishops began to argue over the identity of Christ. Many, who would not believe in the deity of Christ were burned as heretics and their souls damned by the Church. Even today those who deny the Trinity are considered heretical or involved in a cult. Many times they are told that they are not even saved because they deny the deity of Christ. It is no wonder that with so much social persecution very few people actually take the time to consider the doctrine of the Trinity and the implications that it carries.

Before looking to deeply into the Trinity it is crucial that we know what is implied when we use the term in Christian circles. Keep in mind that even today, just as in its formative years, there is much disagreement about the exact way that God manifests Himself, but here is the “official” Church position on the nature of God:

God is one “essence” who manifests Himself as three “persons”: The Father, The Son, and The Holy Ghost. These three beings are all co-eternal, co-equal, and incomprehensible. They are all God and yet there are not three Gods but one God.

In 325 A.D. Constantine, the emperor of Rome called together a council so as to decide, once and for all, the identity of Christ. He saw that his kingdom was being torn apart by this issue, and he was attempting to bring some agreement and peace within the Christian faith as he was now beginning to adhere to it and get his empire to do the same. Little did he understand the importance of doctrine and just how much it would mean to these men that Scripture not be compromised for the sake of agreement.

The bishops were very torn regarding the identity of Christ and were essentially split into two groups. There were those who believed Jesus to be God (and relied mostly on confusing logic, supported by very little scripture) and those who believed Jesus to be the begotten Son of God, our divine Savior. The first group wanted to go so far as to say that Jesus was God but the latter felt there was simply not enough compelling biblical evidence to dictate such a belief.

It was Constantine who finally decided the issue by trying to help both sides come to a agreement. The non-biblical term he used was homoousia, which is a Greek term that means “of the same substance.” In this way those who wanted to see Jesus as God could be satisfied by interpreting this idea to mean that he was God and those who wanted to see Jesus as begotten from God could interpret this to mean that he was born of God, and as such, shared many of the same likenesses of God but was not God Himself.

This compromise, however, would lead into later doctrines with devastating implications to the Christian faith, and would give Athanasius, a than zealot priest, the room he needed to begin to promote his own agenda. In fact it was Athanasius who was primarily responsible for promoting the idea of the Trinity and enforcing it with violence, threats, and blatant disregard for his peers. He himself was a man with a violent temper, and no tolerance for those who disagreed with him, including the emperor himself. When Bishop Alexander, the bishop of Alexandria died he was quick to move in and claim the position for himself. Alexandria, originally founded by Alexander the Great, was a powerhouse in the Roman Empire. It was a city of great political influence, and great economical status. The Bishop of Alexandria was considered by many to be the most powerful of all the bishops.

Athanasius’ career is plagued by accusations of excessive force and violence, even against the clergy. He was brought before the councils and the emperor on several occasions for charges of destroying sacred church objects, burning down the houses of rival priests, and brutalizing priests. He often had his opponents excommunicated and anathematized, beaten and intimidated, kidnapped, imprisoned, and exiled. He was charged with an assortment of crimes, including bribery, theft, extortion, sacrilege, treason, and murder, and he was exiled no less than five times. [1] Yet even in his exile he continued to work tirelessly in order to secure himself a position within the church so that he could continue to promote his doctrine.

an exerpt from this site

http://www.biblicalunitarian.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=23

[Iessaioi]

There were no blood tranfusions in Jesus' time.But if there were?I believe it would be included.People who cannot eat are fed by IV.Blood of any kind,I believe,should never be ingested,by any means.I thought you were going to create a new thread?

[Iessaioi]

Right co rulers and priests.

Now inside the nation of Israel was everyone ruling, or was there a class who served in this role as priest and a family line for kingship?The Levites? And within that group were the sons of Aaron.

[Tater]

I thought you were going to create a new thread?


Sorry.I'll work on it now.:)

[DRS]

The Levites? And within that group were the sons of Aaron.

So out of the whole nation of Israel only the Levites served as priests.

And only the family of David was going to serve as king after the rejection of Saul.

But this did not keep the entire nation of Israel from being God's people, just some had duties in the promised land, and others were freer to enjoy the land.

Same in God's kingdom, some will rule and serve in the heavenly temple while others will enjoy the Earth, which is promised to the meek.

[Iessaioi]

So out of the whole nation of Israel only the Levites served as priests.

And only the family of David was going to serve as king after the rejection of Saul.

But this did not keep the entire nation of Israel from being God's people, just some had duties in the promised land, and others were freer to enjoy the land.

Same in God's kingdom, some will rule and serve in the heavenly temple while others will enjoy the Earth, which is promised to the meek.Ok DRS, but was this God's original plan? If I'm not mistaken, weren't the children of Israel supposed to be a nation of priests? And rather than have an earthly king (which they asked for) wasn't God supposed to be their King? If you know your OT history, then you should know this already.

[Tater]

So out of the whole nation of Israel only the Levites served as priests.

And only the family of David was going to serve as king after the rejection of Saul.

But this did not keep the entire nation of Israel from being God's people, just some had duties in the promised land, and others were freer to enjoy the land.

Same in God's kingdom, some will rule and serve in the heavenly temple while others will enjoy the Earth, which is promised to the meek.


You put things very well.Thanks for your help and input.:)

[DRS]

Ok DRS, but was this God's original plan? If I'm not mistaken, weren't the children of Israel supposed to be a nation of priests? And rather than have an earthly king (which they asked for) wasn't God supposed to be their King? If you know your OT history, then you should know this already.

God set up a visible example for mankind to see and a way to provide the Messiah and redeem mankind.

God told Israel they would reject Him as king, but since many of Jesus first followers were Jewish they some did in fact become a nation of kings and priests.

[Iessaioi]

God set up a visible example for mankind to see and a way to provide the Messiah and redeem mankind.

God told Israel they would reject Him as king, but since many of Jesus first followers were Jewish they some did in fact become a nation of kings and priests.Ok, but you are missing the point. WHY? Why did God seperate from among the Hebrew tribes the Levites? What was the catalyst? There had to be a reason. Go back and read your OT history if you really want to know the answer. Also, why did God give them a king? Especially since it was His original design that He (Jehovah) be their King.

[Warrior4God]

Ok DRS, but was this God's original plan? If I'm not mistaken, weren't the children of Israel supposed to be a nation of priests? And rather than have an earthly king (which they asked for) wasn't God supposed to be their King? If you know your OT history, then you should know this already.

Gods whole plan from Genesis to revelation was for mankind to be redeemed and that redeemer was the messiah The king of Kings the Lord Jesus Christ
Man in his ever so wonderful self never listened to God.Gods plan was not to have the children of Israel rome in the wilderness for 40 years but they did because they would not listen and believe

[Iessaioi]

Gods whole plan from Genesis to revelation was for mankind to be redeemed and that redeemer was the messiah The king of Kings the Lord Jesus Christ
Man in his ever so wonderful self never listened to God.Gods plan was not to have the children of Israel rome in the wilderness for 40 years but they did because they would not listen and believeExactly! Everything that happened was a result of something the Israelites did wrong. Had they listened and obeyed God from the start, there wouldn't be any Levitical Priesthood. They wouldn't have needed an earthly king and they (all Israel) would have been a nation of priests. They would have been the ones to spread God's Gospel to the rest of the world.

[DRS]

Ok, but you are missing the point. WHY? Why did God seperate from among the Hebrew tribes the Levites? What was the catalyst? There had to be a reason. Go back and read your OT history if you really want to know the answer. Also, why did God give them a king? Especially since it was His original design that He (Jehovah) be their King.

What was done with Israel was to give the physical (seen) example. Everything that happened with Israel was to serve as an example.

The plan for Jesus and for heavenly corulers has been there since Adam sinned. Genesis 3:15

[DRS]

Exactly! Everything that happened was a result of something the Israelites did wrong. Had they listened and obeyed God from the start, there wouldn't be any Levitical Priesthood. They wouldn't have needed an earthly king and they (all Israel) would have been a nation of priests. They would have been the ones to spread God's Gospel to the rest of the world.

Israel was going to fail, and God knew this He told them they would ask for a king and what is happening now was prophecied in Deuteronomy 28

[ralittlefield]

John 3:16 ... whosoever believeth in Him shall...

It doesn't say whosoever believeth and can recite a precise definition of the Trinity shall...

Yes, but when John wrote that I believe that when he said "Him", he was thinking Trinity. ;)


Remember how John started his book, the word was both with God, and was God.

John was not a polytheist. He believed in one true God.


(Yes, I know only two are mentioned here, but you know what I am saying.)

[Iessaioi]

What was done with Israel was to give the physical (seen) example. Everything that happened with Israel was to serve as an example.

The plan for Jesus and for heavenly corulers has been there since Adam sinned. Genesis 3:15If only that were true. Let's test your Biblical knowledge. Who was Israel's first king and under what circumstances was he chosen. In other words "why was he chosen"?

Secondly, who were the first priests and why were they chosen?

[Iessaioi]

Israel was going to fail, and God knew this He told them they would ask for a king and what is happening now was prophecied in Deuteronomy 28So they didn't have a choice? Funny, I thought you believed in Free Will? You sound like someone who believes in Predestination. Are you saying they were predestined to fail?

[DRS]

So they didn't have a choice? Funny, I thought you believed in Free Will? You sound like someone who believes in Predestination. Are you saying they were predestined to fail?

No they had a choice but God knew they would fall down and God knew what was going to happen.

He told them they would want a king did He not?

[DRS]

If only that were true. Let's test your Biblical knowledge. Who was Israel's first king and under what circumstances was he chosen. In other words "why was he chosen"?

Secondly, who were the first priests and why were they chosen?

First king Saul, the people asked for a king like the nations around them, he was shy but tall and handsome pleasing to the people.

Aaron and his sons served as high priests first, Aarons rod was the one that had buds showing he was God's choice.

[Iessaioi]

No they had a choice but God knew they would fall down and God knew what was going to happen.

He told them they would want a king did He not?You tell me. All I remember is that He was supposed to be their King before they started whining for an earthly king because all the other nations had one. Just like little children who whine and complain because the neighbor kids have something they want.

[Iessaioi]

First king Saul, the people asked for a king like the nations around them, he was shy but tall and handsome pleasing to the people.

Aaron and his sons served as high priests first, Aarons rod was the one that had buds showing he was God's choice.Yes, both are true. However, it was because of their lack of faith and trust in the Lord which caused these two things to happen. They had so many signs and miracles from God that they didn't even need "faith" (like we do today) because they actually saw these things happen. They actually heard the voice of God and yet they couldn't be faithful to Him. Just think how different things might have turned out had they only trusted in Jehovah rather than trusting in the arm of flesh.

[MPK]

Oh yeah?

Jehovah

1 Almighty--Genesis 17:1
2 I AM--Exodus3:14-16
3 Rock--Psalm 18:2; 28:1
4 Horn of Salvation--Psalm 18:2
5 Shepherd--Psalm 23:1; Isaiah 40:10-11
6 King of Glory--Psalm 24:7-10
7 LightPsalm--27:1; Isaiah 60:19
8 Salvation--Psalm 27:1; Isaiah 12:2
9 Lord of lords--Psalm 136:3
10 Holy OneIsaiah--12:6
11 Lawgiver--Isaiah 33:22
12 Judge--Isaiah 33:22
13 First and Last--Isaiah 41:4; 44:6; 48:12
14 Only Savior--Isaiah 43:11; 45:21; 60:16
15 Giver of Spiritual Water--Isaiah 44:3
16 King of Israel--Isaiah 44:6
17 Only Creator--Isaiah 44:24; 45:8; 48:13
18 Only Just God--Isaiah 45:21
19 Redeemer--Isaiah 54:5; 60:16

Jesus

1. Almighty--Revelation 1:82
2. I am--John 8:
3. Rock--I Corinthians 10:4
4. Horn of Salvation--Luke 1:69
5. Good Shepherd, Great Shepherd, Chief Shepherd--Hebrews 13:20; I Peter 5:4
6. Lord of Glory--I Corinthians 2:8
7. Light--John 1:4-9; John 8:12; Revelation 21:23
8. Only Salvation--Acts 4:10-12
9. Lord of lords--Revelation 19:16
10. Holy One--Acts 2:27
11. Testator of the First Testament (the Law)--Hebrews 9:14-17
12. Judge--Micah 5:1; Acts 10:42
13. Alpha and Omega, Beginning and Ending, First and Last--Revelation 1:8; 22:13
14. Savior--Titus 2:13; 3:6
15. Giver of Living Water--John 4:10-14; 7:38-39
16. King of Israel, King of kings--John 1:49; Revelation 19:16
17. Creator of everything--John 1:3; Colossians 1:16
18. Just One--Acts 7:52
19. Redeemer--Galatians 3:13; Revelation 5:9

and more...

Name

1. Jehovah-jireh (provider)
2. Jehovah-rapha (healer)
3. Jehovah-nissi (banner, victory)
4. Jehovah-m'kaddesh (sanctifier)
5. Jehovah-shalom (peace)
6. Jehovah-sabaoth (Lord of hosts)
7. Jehovah-elyon (most high)
8. Jehovah-raah (shepherd)
9. Jehovah-hoseenu (maker)
10. Jehovah-tsidkenu (Righteousness)
11. Jehovah-shammah (present)

Compare to what was said of Jesus..

1. Provider--Hebrews 10:10-12
2. Healer--James 5:14-15
3. Victory--I Corinthians 15:57
4. Sanctifier--Ephesians 5:26
5. Peace--John 14:27
6. Lord of Hosts--James 5:4-7
7. Most High--Luke 1:32, 76, 78
8. Shepherd--John 10:11
9. Maker--John 1:3
10. Righteousness--I Corinthians 1:30
11. Ever Present One--Matthew 28:20

And your point was what exactly?

[Fire Watch]

And your point was what exactly?
That the Bible shows them to be one and the same.

[DRS]

That the Bible shows them to be one and the same.

Really, when the bible says this mean everlasting life their taking in knowledge of you the only true God and of the one who you sent forth Jesus Christ it is the same person?

When God loved the whole world so much He gave His only begotten son, they are the same person?

[MPK]

That the Bible shows them to be one and the same.

Where does it show that?

[Fire Watch]

Where does it show that?
How can Jehova be the Almighty, I AM, King of Glory, Lord of lords, Holy One, First and Last, Only Savior, Only Creator and the Only Just God if Jesus was said the be those things also? Quite simply because Jesus IS God.

[Fire Watch]

MPK, if Jesus isnt God, explain the following;

Isaiah 52:6 "Therefore my people shall know my name: therefore they shall know in that day that I am he that doth speak; behold, it is I" . Yet we know that Jesus is the One that declared the Father, manifested the Father's name, and declared the Father's name (John 1:18; 17:6; 17:26). Jesus declared the LORD's name (Psalm 22:22; Hebrews 2:12).

Zechariah 11:4, "the LORD my God" said, "So they weighed for my price thirty pieces of silver." In Zechariah 12:10 Jehovah stated, "They shall look upon me whom they have pierced." Of course, it was Jesus who was sold for thirty pieces of silver and who was pierced (Matthew 26:14-16; John 19:34). Zechariah 12:8 says with reference to the Messiah, "the house of David shall be as God." Zechariah also wrote, "The LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee" and describes Him battling against many nations and stepping foot on the Mount of Olives (Zechariah 14:3-5).. we know Jesus is the one coming back to the Mount of Olives as King of kings and Lord of lords to war against the nations (Acts 1:9-12; I Timothy 6:14-16; Revelation 19:11-16).

Revelation 22:6 says, "the Lord God of the holy prophets sent his angel" to John, but verse 16 says, "I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you."

[Warrior4God]

How can Jehova be the Almighty, I AM, King of Glory, Lord of lords, Holy One, First and Last, Only Savior, Only Creator and the Only Just God if Jesus was said the be those things also? Quite simply because Jesus IS God.

2 places I see and have posted these before and got no response that comes close to being any thing but spin
say point blank that no man has seen God at any time
how is this?
there are 100s of scripture that shows who Christ is
Jesus Christ knew who he was but I guess men are smarter then Gods Son when he says
Mark 10:18
And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.
Matthew 19:17
And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

Luke 18:19
And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? none is good, save one, that is, God.

[Fire Watch]

2 places I see and have posted these before and got no response that comes close to being any thing but spin
say point blank that no man has seen God at any time
how is this?
there are 100s of scripture that shows who Christ is
Jesus Christ knew who he was but I guess men are smarter then Gods Son when he says
Mark 10:18
And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.
Matthew 19:17
And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

Luke 18:19
And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? none is good, save one, that is, God.
Its quite simple when you realize and understand that he is fully God and fully man. Now answer my last post.

[Warrior4God]

Its quite simple when you realize and understand that he is fully God and fully man. Now answer my last post.

Some of what you posted is true some are not I wont respond to any without you posting the scripture and we can deal with them 1 by 1

LOL you love this stuff dont ya
I left a post on your rickalodeon saying you were a nut....I bet you and I are alot alike Im a nut of the first degree and ugly to boot found a woman that overlooks ugly was married 25 years yesterday

[Warrior4God]

will try to respond but need to run soon

[Phredderikk]

I believe that the Nicene-Constantinopolitan Creed of 325 and 391 AD tells what we must confess if we hold to the teachings of the true Church:

† I believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible.

And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all worlds; God of God, Light of Light, very God of very God; begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father, by whom all things were made.

Who, for us men for our salvation, came down from heaven, and was incarnate by the Holy Spirit of the virgin Mary, and was made man; and was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate; He suffered and was buried; and the third day He rose again, according to the Scriptures; and ascended into heaven, and sits on the right hand of the Father; and He shall come again, with glory, to judge the quick and the dead; whose kingdom shall have no end.

And I believe in the Holy Ghost, the Lord and Giver of Life; who proceeds from the Father; who with the Father and the Son together is worshipped and glorified; who spoke by the prophets.

And I believe one holy catholic and apostolic Church. I acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins; and I look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come. Amen. †

[Fire Watch]

Some of what you posted is true some are not I wont respond to any without you posting the scripture and we can deal with them 1 by 1I have already.


Jehovah

1 Almighty--Genesis 17:1
2 I AM--Exodus3:14-16
3 Rock--Psalm 18:2; 28:1
4 Horn of Salvation--Psalm 18:2
5 Shepherd--Psalm 23:1; Isaiah 40:10-11
6 King of Glory--Psalm 24:7-10
7 LightPsalm--27:1; Isaiah 60:19
8 Salvation--Psalm 27:1; Isaiah 12:2
9 Lord of lords--Psalm 136:3
10 Holy OneIsaiah--12:6
11 Lawgiver--Isaiah 33:22
12 Judge--Isaiah 33:22
13 First and Last--Isaiah 41:4; 44:6; 48:12
14 Only Savior--Isaiah 43:11; 45:21; 60:16
15 Giver of Spiritual Water--Isaiah 44:3
16 King of Israel--Isaiah 44:6
17 Only Creator--Isaiah 44:24; 45:8; 48:13
18 Only Just God--Isaiah 45:21
19 Redeemer--Isaiah 54:5; 60:16

Jesus

1. Almighty--Revelation 1:82
2. I am--John 8:
3. Rock--I Corinthians 10:4
4. Horn of Salvation--Luke 1:69
5. Good Shepherd, Great Shepherd, Chief Shepherd--Hebrews 13:20; I Peter 5:4
6. Lord of Glory--I Corinthians 2:8
7. Light--John 1:4-9; John 8:12; Revelation 21:23
8. Only Salvation--Acts 4:10-12
9. Lord of lords--Revelation 19:16
10. Holy One--Acts 2:27
11. Testator of the First Testament (the Law)--Hebrews 9:14-17
12. Judge--Micah 5:1; Acts 10:42
13. Alpha and Omega, Beginning and Ending, First and Last--Revelation 1:8; 22:13
14. Savior--Titus 2:13; 3:6
15. Giver of Living Water--John 4:10-14; 7:38-39
16. King of Israel, King of kings--John 1:49; Revelation 19:16
17. Creator of everything--John 1:3; Colossians 1:16
18. Just One--Acts 7:52
19. Redeemer--Galatians 3:13; Revelation 5:9

and more...

Name

1. Jehovah-jireh (provider)
2. Jehovah-rapha (healer)
3. Jehovah-nissi (banner, victory)
4. Jehovah-m'kaddesh (sanctifier)
5. Jehovah-shalom (peace)
6. Jehovah-sabaoth (Lord of hosts)
7. Jehovah-elyon (most high)
8. Jehovah-raah (shepherd)
9. Jehovah-hoseenu (maker)
10. Jehovah-tsidkenu (Righteousness)
11. Jehovah-shammah (present)

Compare to what was said of Jesus..

1. Provider--Hebrews 10:10-12
2. Healer--James 5:14-15
3. Victory--I Corinthians 15:57
4. Sanctifier--Ephesians 5:26
5. Peace--John 14:27
6. Lord of Hosts--James 5:4-7
7. Most High--Luke 1:32, 76, 78
8. Shepherd--John 10:11
9. Maker--John 1:3
10. Righteousness--I Corinthians 1:30
11. Ever Present One--Matthew 28:20

[Warrior4God]

I believe that the Nicene-Constantinopolitan Creed of 325 and 391 AD tells what we must confess if we hold to the teachings of the true Church:

† I believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible.

And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all worlds; God of God, Light of Light, very God of very God; begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father, by whom all things were made.

Who, for us men for our salvation, came down from heaven, and was incarnate by the Holy Spirit of the virgin Mary, and was made man; and was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate; He suffered and was buried; and the third day He rose again, according to the Scriptures; and ascended into heaven, and sits on the right hand of the Father; and He shall come again, with glory, to judge the quick and the dead; whose kingdom shall have no end.

And I believe in the Holy Ghost, the Lord and Giver of Life; who proceeds from the Father; who with the Father and the Son together is worshipped and glorified; who spoke by the prophets.

And I believe one holy catholic and apostolic Church. I acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins; and I look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come. Amen. †

that creed means nothing to me and was written by men

[Warrior4God]

. As it is written in the KJV, there is no Trinitarian inference in the verse.

2. There are versions such as the NIV and NASB, however, that are translated from a different textual family than the King James Version, and they read “God” instead of “Son.”

NIV: “No one has ever seen God, but God the One and Only, who is at the Father’s side, has made him known.”

NASB: “No man has seen God at any time; the only begotten God, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him.”

John 17:5
And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began. (NIv)


1. There is no question that Jesus “existed” before the world began. But did he exist literally as a person or in God’s foreknowledge, “in the mind of God?” Both Christ and the corporate be in the Body of Christ, the Church, existed in God’s foreknowledge before being alive. Christ was the “logos,” the “plan” of God from the beginning, and he became flesh only when he was conceived. It is Trinitarian bias that causes people to read an actual physical existence into this verse rather than a figurative existence in the mind of God. When 2 Timothy 1:9 says that each Christian was given grace “before the beginning of time,” no one tries to prove that we were actually alive with God back then. Everyone acknowledges that we were “in the mind of God,” i.e., in God’s foreknowledge. The same is true of Jesus Christ. His glory was “with the Father” before the world began, and in John 17:5 he prayed that it would come into manifestation.which makes me think of this verse
Revelation 3:14
And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God
He was the beginning of Gods creation

[Warrior4God]

The way Jesus Christ thought,lived and breathed was the way he was by birth with many of the attributes associated with his Father many if not most or all of the names listed are not identical IMHO for example King of Kings,Lord of Lords,redeemer,good shepard etc.
He was the Son of God and has by all rights and authority the right to speak for God and reflect the nature of his Father who sent him

You know one thing we can agree on is the hope

Jesus Christ will gather us together one day and what a day that will be
and all of this world and what we think will be nothing and we shall live in his presence forever
trinity or no trinity as long as we believe

[Phredderikk]

Should You Believe in the Trinity?

Is It Clearly a Bible Teaching?



IF THE Trinity were true, it should be clearly and consistently presented in the Bible. Why? Because, as the apostles affirmed, the Bible is God's revelation of himself to mankind. And since we need to know God to worship him acceptably, the Bible should be clear in telling us just who he is.

First-century believers accepted the Scriptures as the authentic revelation of God. It was the basis for their beliefs, the final authority. For example, when the apostle Paul preached to people in the city of Beroea, "they received the word with the greatest eagerness of mind, carefully examining the Scriptures daily as to whether these things were so."—Acts 17:10, 11.

What did prominent men of God at that time use as their authority? Acts 17:2, 3 tells us: "According to Paul's custom . . . he reasoned with them from the Scriptures, explaining and proving by references [from the Scriptures]."

Jesus himself set the example in using the Scriptures as the basis for his teaching, repeatedly saying: "It is written." "He interpreted to them things pertaining to himself in all the Scriptures."—Matthew 4:4, 7; Luke 24:27.

Thus Jesus, Paul, and first-century believers used the Scriptures as the foundation for their teaching. They knew that "all Scripture is inspired of God and beneficial for teaching, for reproving, for setting things straight, for disciplining in righteousness, that the man of God may be fully competent, completely equipped for every good work."—2 Timothy 3:16, 17; see also 1 Corinthians 4:6; 1 Thessalonians 2:13; 2 Peter 1:20, 21.

Since the Bible can 'set things straight,' it should clearly reveal information about a matter as fundamental as the Trinity is claimed to be. But do theologians and historians themselves say that it is clearly a Bible teaching?

"Trinity" in the Bible?




A PROTESTANT publication states: "The word Trinity is not found in the Bible . . . It did not find a place formally in the theology of the church till the 4th century." (The Illustrated Bible Dictionary) And a Catholic authority says that the Trinity "is not . . . directly and immediately [the] word of God."—New Catholic Encyclopedia.

The Catholic Encyclopedia also comments: "In Scripture there is as yet no single term by which the Three Divine Persons are denoted together. The word [tri'as] (of which the Latin trinitas is a translation) is first found in Theophilus of Antioch about A. D. 180. . . . Shortly afterwards it appears in its Latin form of trinitas in Tertullian."

However, this is no proof in itself that Tertullian taught the Trinity. The Catholic work Trinitas—A Theological Encyclopedia of the Holy Trinity, for example, notes that some of Tertullian's words were later used by others to describe the Trinity. Then it cautions: "But hasty conclusions cannot be drawn from usage, for he does not apply the words to Trinitarian theology."

Testimony of the Hebrew Scriptures




WHILE the word "Trinity" is not found in the Bible, is at least the idea of the Trinity taught clearly in it? For instance, what do the Hebrew Scriptures ("Old Testament") reveal?

The Encyclopedia of Religion admits: "Theologians today are in agreement that the Hebrew Bible does not contain a doctrine of the Trinity." And the New Catholic Encyclopedia also says: "The doctrine of the Holy Trinity is not taught in the O[ld] T[estament]."

Similarly, in his book The Triune God, Jesuit Edmund Fortman admits: "The Old Testament . . . tells us nothing explicitly or by necessary implication of a Triune God who is Father, Son and Holy Spirit. . . . There is no evidence that any sacred writer even suspected the existence of a [Trinity] within the Godhead. . . . Even to see in [the "Old Testament"] suggestions or foreshadowings or 'veiled signs' of the trinity of persons, is to go beyond the words and intent of the sacred writers."—Italics ours.

An examination of the Hebrew Scriptures themselves will bear out these comments. Thus, there is no clear teaching of a Trinity in the first 39 books of the Bible that make up the true canon of the inspired Hebrew Scriptures.

Testimony of the Greek Scriptures




WELL, then, do the Christian Greek Scriptures ("New Testament") speak clearly of a Trinity?

The Encyclopedia of Religion says: "Theologians agree that the New Testament also does not contain an explicit doctrine of the Trinity."

Jesuit Fortman states: "The New Testament writers . . . give us no formal or formulated doctrine of the Trinity, no explicit teaching that in one God there are three co-equal divine persons. . . . Nowhere do we find any trinitarian doctrine of three distinct subjects of divine life and activity in the same Godhead."

The New Encyclopædia Britannica observes: "Neither the word Trinity nor the explicit doctrine appears in the New Testament."

Bernhard Lohse says in A Short History of Christian Doctrine: "As far as the New Testament is concerned, one does not find in it an actual doctrine of the Trinity."

The New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology similarly states: "The N[ew] T[estament] does not contain the developed doctrine of the Trinity. 'The Bible lacks the express declaration that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are of equal essence' [said Protestant theologian Karl Barth]."

Yale University professor E. Washburn Hopkins affirmed: "To Jesus and Paul the doctrine of the trinity was apparently unknown; . . . they say nothing about it."—Origin and Evolution of Religion.

Historian Arthur Weigall notes: "Jesus Christ never mentioned such a phenomenon, and nowhere in the New Testament does the word 'Trinity' appear. The idea was only adopted by the Church three hundred years after the death of our Lord."—The Paganism in Our Christianity.

Thus, neither the 39 books of the Hebrew Scriptures nor the canon of 27 inspired books of the Christian Greek Scriptures provide any clear teaching of the Trinity.

Taught by Early Christians?




DID the early Christians teach the Trinity? Note the following comments by historians and theologians:

"Primitive Christianity did not have an explicit doctrine of the Trinity such as was subsequently elaborated in the creeds."—The New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology.

"The early Christians, however, did not at first think of applying the [Trinity] idea to their own faith. They paid their devotions to God the Father and to Jesus Christ, the Son of God, and they recognised the . . . Holy Spirit; but there was no thought of these three being an actual Trinity, co-equal and united in One."—The Paganism in Our Christianity.

"At first the Christian faith was not Trinitarian . . . It was not so in the apostolic and sub-apostolic ages, as reflected in the N[ew] T[estament] and other early Christian writings."—Encyclopædia of Religion and Ethics.

"The formulation 'one God in three Persons' was not solidly established, certainly not fully assimilated into Christian life and its profession of faith, prior to the end of the 4th century. . . . Among the Apostolic Fathers, there had been nothing even remotely approaching such a mentality or perspective."—New Catholic Encyclopedia.

What the Ante-Nicene Fathers Taught




THE ante-Nicene Fathers were acknowledged to have been leading religious teachers in the early centuries after Christ's birth. What they taught is of interest.



Irenaeus, who died about 200 C.E., said that the prehuman Jesus had a separate existence from God and was inferior to him. He showed that Jesus is not equal to the "One true and only God," who is "supreme over all, and besides whom there is no other."

Clement of Alexandria, who died about 215 C.E., called Jesus in his prehuman existence "a creature" but called God "the uncreated and imperishable and only true God." He said that the Son "is next to the only omnipotent Father" but not equal to him.

Tertullian, who died about 230 C.E., taught the supremacy of God. He observed: "The Father is different from the Son (another), as he is greater; as he who begets is different from him who is begotten; he who sends, different from him who is sent." He also said: "There was a time when the Son was not. . . . Before all things, God was alone."

Hippolytus, who died about 235 C.E., said that God is "the one God, the first and the only One, the Maker and Lord of all," who "had nothing co-eval [of equal age] with him . . . But he was One, alone by himself; who, willing it, called into being what had no being before," such as the created prehuman Jesus.

"There is no evidence that any sacred writer even suspected the existence of a [Trinity] within the Godhead."—The Triune God


Origen, who died about 250 C.E., said that "the Father and Son are two substances . . . two things as to their essence," and that "compared with the Father, [the Son] is a very small light."

Summing up the historical evidence, Alvan Lamson says in The Church of the First Three Centuries: "The modern popular doctrine of the Trinity . . . derives no support from the language of Justin [Martyr]: and this observation may be extended to all the ante-Nicene Fathers; that is, to all Christian writers for three centuries after the birth of Christ. It is true, they speak of the Father, Son, and . . . holy Spirit, but not as co-equal, not as one numerical essence, not as Three in One, in any sense now admitted by Trinitarians. The very reverse is the fact."

Thus, the testimony of the Bible and of history makes clear that the Trinity was unknown throughout Biblical times and for several centuries thereafter.Comments?

This post should contain a sign that says "Keep away from fire" .... it is so full of straw that even a spark (of truth) will burn it up in the blink of an eye...

[Warrior4God]

This post should contain a sign that says "Keep away from fire" .... it is so full of straw that even a spark (of truth) will burn it up in the blink of an eye...

The post he posted was in fact accurate in most places

[MPK]

How can Jehova be the Almighty, I AM, King of Glory, Lord of lords, Holy One, First and Last, Only Savior, Only Creator and the Only Just God if Jesus was said the be those things also? Quite simply because Jesus IS God.

Show me the verse where it says Jesus is the Almighty and the most high over all the earth.

[ralittlefield]

Show me the verse where it says Jesus is the Almighty and the most high over all the earth.

Eph 1

9 And he made known to us the mystery of his will according to his good pleasure, which he purposed in Christ, 10 to be put into effect when the times will have reached their fulfillment—to bring all things in heaven and on earth together under one head, even Christ.

[prisonchaplain]

Salvation via correct understanding of doctrine? Hmmm.

We ought to know who it is we worship, no?

[prisonchaplain]

You are correct here. The Trinity is a false religious teaching that dishonors the creator. It is NOT taught in the scriptures. Jehovah is the almighty, Jesus Christ is his son and the holy spirit is Jehovahs active force that he uses to accomplish his will.

If Jesus is truly Jehovah's only begotten son, then would he not be what Jehovah is?

If the Holy Spirit is merely a moniker for describing Jehovah's power, why would the biblical writers simply not speak of Jehovah moving/acting in power? Why put out this whole separate title?

[MPK]

Eph 1

9 And he made known to us the mystery of his will according to his good pleasure, which he purposed in Christ, 10 to be put into effect when the times will have reached their fulfillment—to bring all things in heaven and on earth together under one head, even Christ.

This does not answer the question. Again, Show me the verse where it says Jesus is the Almighty and the most high over all the earth. For example notice here in Psalm 83:18 it says " That people may know that you whose name is JEHOVAH, you ALONE are the most high over ALL the earth."

[prisonchaplain]

The good chaplain and I have been having this conversation or something similar off and on for a long time (from another board before I invited him over). Trust me, he isn't offended and will soon offer up a thoughtful and more in-depth response (that I'll probably still disagree with).

Why do you call me good, only God is ... nah, better not steal Jesus' line! :D

Snow my thoughtful response is pretty much what Recon mentioned--though I'll add what I've said before: I do not know how wrong we can be and still be truly reconciled? Neither you nor I are Universalists. LDS theology does indeed make room for all sincere religious people. Buddhists, Muslims, and Christians will all be judged by their works and hearts.

On the other hand, some fundamentalists don't reckon you'll get through the pearly gates unless you dress right, and keep your women's faces unpainted.

Jesus says He's the only way, so, at minimum, I will do my best to bring his message to all who will listen. God is just and merciful, and he's called us to spread the word. So, that's what I do. I'll thankfully leave the assessing of souls in his capable hands.

[prisonchaplain]

I know the day is early but I am seeing almost a complete lack of support for the concept of the trinity in the scriptures and early christianity.

Since the idea is so foundational to much of modern christianity, why do you suppose that no NT author thought it worth mentioning clearly?

Serious heresies related to the nature of God did not arise for a couple hundred years. Detailed teachings (creeds/articles of faith) developed in response.

[MPK]

If Jesus is truly Jehovah's only begotten son, then would he not be what Jehovah is?

If the Holy Spirit is merely a moniker for describing Jehovah's power, why would the biblical writers simply not speak of Jehovah moving/acting in power? Why put out this whole separate title?

1- Jesus is an exact representation of his father but still not the father. To make it a little more clear, at one time, Jesus did not exist. Jesus had a beginning, he was created. Jehovah was not created therefore Jesus could not be what Jehovah is.

2- There are plenty of verses that deal with Jehovah acting in power for example, In Exodus the ninth chapter, the 23rd verse, it says: “And Moses stretched forth his rod toward heaven: and Jehovah sent thunder and hail, and fire ran down unto the earth; and Jehovah rained hail upon the land of Egypt.” (AS) Jehovah’s voice was heard and felt in his expression of wrath upon man and beast and field. He uses his Holy Spirit to accomplish his will.
His servants can ask for Holy Spirit to help them accomplish his will such as the preaching of the good news of his kingdom that is being done today by more than 6 million witnesses worldwide in fulfillment of Matthew 24:14.

[Warrior4God]

Why do you call me good, only God is ... nah, better not steal Jesus' line! :D

Snow my thoughtful response is pretty much what Recon mentioned--though I'll add what I've said before: I do not know how wrong we can be and still be truly reconciled? Neither you nor I are Universalists. LDS theology does indeed make room for all sincere religious people. Buddhists, Muslims, and Christians will all be judged by their works and hearts.

On the other hand, some fundamentalists don't reckon you'll get through the pearly gates unless you dress right, and keep your women's faces unpainted.

Jesus says He's the only way, so, at minimum, I will do my best to bring his message to all who will listen. God is just and merciful, and he's called us to spread the word. So, that's what I do. I'll thankfully leave the assessing of souls in his capable hands.
I know God is a God that looks at the heart......thinking of David even though he made mistakes he was a man after Gods own heart..
What Jesus Christ accomplished is bigger then we all can percieve with human minds and even with his spirit, it is so big ,bigger then any church creed or denomination.
I am thankful for people like you who seek the truth and Love Gods people and it shows

[DRS]

If Jesus is truly Jehovah's only begotten son, then would he not be what Jehovah is?

If the Holy Spirit is merely a moniker for describing Jehovah's power, why would the biblical writers simply not speak of Jehovah moving/acting in power? Why put out this whole separate title?

Because Jehovah is without beginning.

You mean like it does in Genesis when it says God's active force was moving to and fro over the Earth?

[DRS]

Eph 1

9 And he made known to us the mystery of his will according to his good pleasure, which he purposed in Christ, 10 to be put into effect when the times will have reached their fulfillment—to bring all things in heaven and on earth together under one head, even Christ.

What does Psalm 83:18 say?

Why is Jesus called son of the Most High God twice in the Nt?

[ralittlefield]

What does Psalm 83:18 say?


Why is Jesus called son of the Most High God twice in the Nt?

Psalm 83:18 says nothing to disprove the Trinity.

Son of God is a title, it does not indicate that Jesus had an origin. John 1:1 say that He was with God in the beginning.

Who did Thomas say was his God in John 20:28
Answer = Jesus

How many Gods are there according to Deut 6:4
answer = one

According to 1 Cor 8:4-6 what kind of gods are all other gods?
answer = false gods

[DRS]

Psalm 83:18 says nothing to disprove the Trinity.

Son of God is a title, it does not indicate that Jesus had an origin. John 1:1 say that He was with God in the beginning.

Who did Thomas say was his God in John 20:28
Answer = Jesus

How many Gods are there according to Deut 6:4
answer = one

According to 1 Cor 8:4-6 what kind of gods are all other gods?
answer = false gods

Since Jesus was the first creation he was the beginning, God has no beginning but Jesus has a beginning.

So whne God said I am making you god to pharaoh He was telling him I will make you a false god?

Do you think there are more than one menaing to God, and that this term that has been applied to angels and judges that act in Jehovah's behalf could be what Thomas was referring to?

[Warrior4God]

Psalm 83:18 says nothing to disprove the Trinity.

Son of God is a title, it does not indicate that Jesus had an origin. John 1:1 say that He was with God in the beginning.

Who did Thomas say was his God in John 20:28
Answer = Jesus

How many Gods are there according to Deut 6:4
answer = one

According to 1 Cor 8:4-6 what kind of gods are all other gods?
answer = false gods

Son of God is ablsolutely not just a title it declares who he is,and he did have a beginning
Revelation 3:14
And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;

John 20:28
And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God. (KJV)

1. Jesus never referred to himself as “God” in the absolute sense, so what precedent then did Thomas have for calling Jesus “my God”? The Greek language uses the word theos, (“God” or “god”) with a broader meaning than is customary today. In the Greek language and in the culture of the day, “GOD” (all early manuscripts of the Bible were written in all capital letters) was a descriptive title applied to a range of authorities, including the Roman governor (Acts 12:22), and even the Devil (2 Cor. 4:4). It was used of someone with divine authority. It was not limited to its absolute sense as a personal name for the supreme Deity as we use it today.

[Warrior4God]

According to 1 Cor 8:4-6 what kind of gods are all other gods?
answer = false gods

You said it not me

[Fire Watch]

Son of God is ablsolutely not just a title it declares who he is,and he did have a beginning
Revelation 3:14
And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;

John 20:28
And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God. (KJV)

1. Jesus never referred to himself as “God” in the absolute sense, so what precedent then did Thomas have for calling Jesus “my God”? The Greek language uses the word theos, (“God” or “god”) with a broader meaning than is customary today. In the Greek language and in the culture of the day, “GOD” (all early manuscripts of the Bible were written in all capital letters) was a descriptive title applied to a range of authorities, including the Roman governor (Acts 12:22), and even the Devil (2 Cor. 4:4). It was used of someone with divine authority. It was not limited to its absolute sense as a personal name for the supreme Deity as we use it today. Weak argument at best...let's read..

Revelation 1 (http://bibleresources.bible.com/passagesearchresults.php?passage1=rev+1&passage2=&passage3=&passage4=&passage5=&version1=9&version2=0&version3=0&version4=0&version5=0&Submit.x=55&Submit.y=9)
1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,

11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last:

12 And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks;

13 And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.

14 His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire;

15 And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters.

16 And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength.

17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:

How do we know for a certainty that this entire chapter refers to Jesus???..the clincher is in verse 18.

18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

[Warrior4God]

Weak argument at best...let's read..

Revelation 1 (http://bibleresources.bible.com/passagesearchresults.php?passage1=rev+1&passage2=&passage3=&passage4=&passage5=&version1=9&version2=0&version3=0&version4=0&version5=0&Submit.x=55&Submit.y=9)
1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,

11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last:

12 And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks;

13 And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.

14 His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire;

15 And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters.

16 And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength.

17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:

How do we know for a certainty that this entire chapter refers to Jesus???..the clincher is in verse 18.

18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

Well of course and agree
Revelation 1:8
“I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, “who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty.” (NIV)

1. These words apply to God, not to Christ. The one, “who is, and who was and who is to come” is clearly identified from the context. Revelation 1:4 and 5 reads: “Grace and peace to you from him who is, and who was, and who is to come, and from the seven spirits before his throne, AND from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth.” The separation between “the one who was, is and is to come” and Christ can be clearly seen. The one “who is, and who was and who is to come” is God.

2. This verse is made slightly more ambiguous in the KJV because the word “God” is left out of the Greek text from which the KJV was translated. Nevertheless, modern textual research shows conclusively that it should be included, and modern versions do include the word “God.”

3. Because of the phrase, “the Alpha and the Omega,” many feel this verse refers to Christ. However, a study of the occurrences of the phrase indicates that the title “Alpha and Omega” applies to both God and Christ. Scholars are not completely sure what the phrase “the Alpha and the Omega” means. It cannot be strictly literal, because neither God nor Christ is a Greek letter. Lenski concludes, “It is fruitless to search Jewish and pagan literature for the source of something that resembles this name Alpha and Omega. Nowhere is a person, to say nothing of a divine Person, called ‘Alpha and Omega,’ or in Hebrew, ‘Aleph and Tau.’

[prisonchaplain]

Let me just say that this is a great string. We have LDS, Oneness, Jehovah's Witnesses, and various Trinitarians intelligently and respectfully discussing the nature of God. Kudos to us. I'm frankly still somewhere in the mid-60s or so, and will respond to interesting posts as I am able.

[Fire Watch]

Well of course and agree
Revelation 1:8
“I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, “who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty.” (NIV)

1. These words apply to God, not to Christ. The one, “who is, and who was and who is to come” is clearly identified from the context. Revelation 1:4 and 5 reads: “Grace and peace to you from him who is, and who was, and who is to come, and from the seven spirits before his throne, AND from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth.” The separation between “the one who was, is and is to come” and Christ can be clearly seen. The one “who is, and who was and who is to come” is God.


Who is the person speaking? It's made clear in verse 18, Jesus. There is no separation.

The last chapter of Revelation describes God and the Lamb in the singular (Revelation 22:3-4) and identifies the Lord God of the holy prophets as Jesus (Revelation 22:6, 16). These references tell us that Jesus is the God of eternity and that He will appear with His glorified human body (the Lamb) throughout eternity. God's glory will be the light for the New Jerusalem as it shines through the glorified body of Jesus (Revelation 21:23). These closing chapters of the Book of Revelation describes how God will reveal (unveil) Himself in all His glory to everyone forever. They tell us that Jesus is the everlasting God and that Jesus will reveal Himself as God throughout eternity...that brings us back to Revelation 1:1 "The Revelation of Jesus Christ," putting it all together we realize that the book is indeed the revelation of Jesus Christ.

[Warrior4God]

Who is the person speaking? It's made clear in verse 18, Jesus. There is no separation.

The last chapter of Revelation describes God and the Lamb in the singular (Revelation 22:3-4) and identifies the Lord God of the holy prophets as Jesus (Revelation 22:6, 16). These references tell us that Jesus is the God of eternity and that He will appear with His glorified human body (the Lamb) throughout eternity. God's glory will be the light for the New Jerusalem as it shines through the glorified body of Jesus (Revelation 21:23). These closing chapters of the Book of Revelation describes how God will reveal (unveil) Himself in all His glory to everyone forever. They tell us that Jesus is the everlasting God and that Jesus will reveal Himself as God throughout eternity...that brings us back to Revelation 1:1 "The Revelation of Jesus Christ," putting it all together we realize that the book is indeed the revelation of Jesus Christ.
As I said I agree but alpha and Omega is not any proof of anything
Jesus Christ was the Son of God we as Christians are sons of God that in no way makes me God or Jesus Christ although I am part of his body

[Warrior4God]

Mark 13:32 (RVS)
“But of that day or that hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father
God is omnipotent this verse states that but Jesus was not

[Fire Watch]

As I said I agree but alpha and Omega is not any proof of anything
Jesus Christ was the Son of God we as Christians are sons of God that in no way makes me God or Jesus Christ although I am part of his body

W4G, even the Jewish opponents of Jesus realized that Jesus claimed to be God..Jesus said Abraham rejoiced to see His day. When the Jews asked how this could be, Jesus replied, "Before Abraham was, I am." The Jews immediately recognized that He claimed to be I AM - the name by which Jehovah had identified Himself in Exodus 3:14 - so they took up stones to kill Him for blasphemy (John 8:56-59). When Jesus said, "I and my Father are one," the Jews sought to stone him for blasphemy, because He being a man made Himself God the Father (John 10:30-33). They sought to kill Him when He said the Father was in Him, again because He was claiming to be the Father (John 10:38-39). When Jesus forgave a palsied man of His sins, the Jews thought He had blasphemed because they knew that only God could forgive sin (Isaiah 43:25). Jesus, knowing their thoughts, healed the man; thereby showing His divine power and proving His deity (Luke 5:20-26). The Jews were right in believing that there was one God, in believing that only God could forgive sin, and in understanding that Jesus claimed to be God.

Only God should receive worship (Exodus 20:1-5; 34:14), yet Jesus received worship on many occasions and will receive worship from all creation (Luke 24:52; Philippians 2:10; Hebrews 1:6). Only God can forgive sin (Isaiah 43:25), yet Jesus has power to forgive sin (Mark 2:5). God receives the spirits of men (Ecclesiastes 12:7), yet Jesus received the spirit of Stephen (Acts 7:59). God is the preparer of heaven (Hebrews 11:10), yet Jesus is the preparer of heaven (John 14:3). W4G, searching the scriptures we find that Jesus has all the attributes and prerogatives that belong to God alone...Jesus is everything that the Bible describes God to be. He has all the attributes, and characteristics of God Himself. To put it simply, everything that God is Jesus is. Jesus is the one God. There is no better way to sum it all up than to say with what Apostle Paul said about Jesus, "For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him" (Colossians 2:9-10).

[Warrior4God]

lets go back to my last post........ how is that possible....... and please lets adress 1 verse at a time

[Fire Watch]

Mark 13:32 (RVS)
“But of that day or that hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father
God is omnipotent this verse states that but Jesus was not

It's kinda like the internet. All web-sites have web-servers that run 24-hours a day, which keep the multitudes of sites available for all to access. When your computer accesses the internet, it does not intuitively know all the web-sites that our out there on the web. Only specific sites will be "known" to your computer—those that you type the address to, even though all web-sites are available through the internet.

The 24-hour servers which contain all web-sites can be compared to Jesus’ divine nature. He was fully divine, with all that this entails. Yet He could only access the information that the Father gave Him. Jesus gained this information through communion with the Father, much like we type in the domain name of a web-site to access specific information. Although the divine mind/will was always in Jesus because He was God, Jesus was not self-conscious of the divine mind/will. It was in Jesus, but was inactive (latent). If Jesus was to know anything about the mind/will of God, it had to be accessed from without. Just as the information on the internet cannot be known by the computer unless it is revealed, likewise the mind/will of God was only known by Jesus through revelation.

[prisonchaplain]

The Trinity

an exerpt from this site

http://www.biblicalunitarian.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=23

Not the most unbiased site you could have found. It would be most natural for unitarians to bemoan the treatment of the heretical bishop of Alexandra, and to smear the name of one of the main thinkers behind the trinitatarian creeds. Without doing an indepth analysis, I would argue that even if 95% of the facts of the article are true, the conclusions MAY not be.

[Warrior4God]

It's kinda like the internet. All web-sites have web-servers that run 24-hours a day, which keep the multitudes of sites available for all to access. When your computer accesses the internet, it does not intuitively know all the web-sites that our out there on the web. Only specific sites will be "known" to your computer—those that you type the address to, even though all web-sites are available through the internet.

The 24-hour servers which contain all web-sites can be compared to Jesus’ divine nature. He was fully divine, with all that this entails. Yet He could only access the information that the Father gave Him. Jesus gained this information through communion with the Father, much like we type in the domain name of a web-site to access specific information. Although the divine mind/will was always in Jesus because He was God, Jesus was not self-conscious of the divine mind/will. It was in Jesus, but was inactive (latent). If Jesus was to know anything about the mind/will of God, it had to be accessed from without. Just as the information on the internet cannot be known by the computer unless it is revealed, likewise the mind/will of God was only known by Jesus through revelation.

great analogy i gotta say
I hope you dont think that I am here just to argue because really I am not

with that said your analogy fits better with Jesus Christ being in total subjection to the one who sent him and his information was from the sender
One thing I have realized is that our points of view on who Jesus Christ is will not change it seems but there may be others who even though taught the trinity in church may inside their heart and spirit know it doesnt fit which was where I was for many many years in organized religion seeing only a few verses here and there that I have found misunderstood and many many more showing that Jesus Christ was subject to his Father and all his power and authority was from him

[prisonchaplain]

1- Jesus is an exact representation of his father but still not the father. To make it a little more clear, at one time, Jesus did not exist. Jesus had a beginning, he was created. Jehovah was not created therefore Jesus could not be what Jehovah is.

I would suggest that if Jesus is truly the only begotten Son of God, that He is the same nature as Jehovah, and therefore, is eternal.

2- There are plenty of verses that deal with Jehovah acting in power for example, In Exodus the ninth chapter, the 23rd verse, it says: “And Moses stretched forth his rod toward heaven: and Jehovah sent thunder and hail, and fire ran down unto the earth; and Jehovah rained hail upon the land of Egypt.” (AS) Jehovah’s voice was heard and felt in his expression of wrath upon man and beast and field. He uses his Holy Spirit to accomplish his will.
His servants can ask for Holy Spirit to help them accomplish his will such as the preaching of the good news of his kingdom that is being done today by more than 6 million witnesses worldwide in fulfillment of Matthew 24:14.

I still do not understand why this being of the Holy Spirit, who is described in terms of personality, of volition, etc., would need to be used, if "it" merely represents Jehovah's power.

[Warrior4God]

Let us just thank God we are Christians and part of the body of Christ and he is our Lord and head of the church
I truly do want nothing more than to do Gods will and I am sure you do as well

[prisonchaplain]

Because Jehovah is without beginning.

If Jesus is the only begotten Son of God, then He too is without beginning.

You mean like it does in Genesis when it says God's active force was moving to and fro over the Earth?

Strange, I thought it said that God's Spirit moved over the face of the earth.

[prisonchaplain]

Since Jesus was the first creation he was the beginning, God has no beginning but Jesus has a beginning.

Jesus is not the first one created. He is the firstborn (meaning honored one) over all creation. He has the rights of the the firstborn (i.e. like those that Esau sold for a bowl of lentils). The context of the passage in which Jesus is called the firstborn over all creation is one in which He is given much honor and glory.

Do you think there are more than one menaing to God, and that this term that has been applied to angels and judges that act in Jehovah's behalf could be what Thomas was referring to?

My sense was that Thomas was worshipping Jesus--and that He received such as his due.

[prisonchaplain]

Son of God is ablsolutely not just a title it declares who he is,and he did have a beginning
Revelation 3:14
And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;

Jesus did begin all creation. He was the source of it. Note that the Contemporary English Version even translates it that way: I am the one called Amen! I am the faithful and true witness and the source of God's creation. Listen to what I say.

[Warrior4God]

Not the most unbiased site you could have found. It would be most natural for unitarians to bemoan the treatment of the heretical bishop of Alexandra, and to smear the name of one of the main thinkers behind the trinitatarian creeds. Without doing an indepth analysis, I would argue that even if 95% of the facts of the article are true, the conclusions MAY not be.

The site is not a pro trinity site
I do not adhere to all the things they believe but based on that which I have examined there find most of it true and any history of the trinity found there I found to be fact based on some catholic sites and a few others

do you think any pro trinity site would be unbiased?? honestly

[Warrior4God]

Can anyone post a site for me that is unbiased for or against the trinity

[prisonchaplain]

The site is not a pro trinity site
I do not adhere to all the things they believe but based on that which I have examined there find most of it true and any history of the trinity found there I found to be fact based on some catholic sites and a few others

do you think any pro trinity site would be unbiased?? honestly

Honestly, there are Trinitarian sites that would be reasonably academic. The bias would come in the analysis, not the choice of content. Reputable discussions of history generally include the best of various interpretations, followed by a discussion in which the author points out the main strengths and weaknesses, and then argues his/her conclusions. There are plenty of Trinitarian sites where you would find that level of discussion.

[prisonchaplain]

Can anyone post a site for me that is unbiased for or against the trinity

Here's one that looks objective, though it was flag for weak citation.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trinity

[Warrior4God]

Jesus did begin all creation. He was the source of it. Note that the Contemporary English Version even translates it that way: I am the one called Amen! I am the faithful and true witness and the source of God's creation. Listen to what I say.

That translation makes my point on misunderstood verses.........the word in greek is the same as in John 1:1 and not accurately translated as source the greek word arche
trinitarians translate it one way one time and another way when it fits their doctrine????...........is that rightly dividing the Word?

I would rather be wrong then to mistranslate Gods Word wrong

I will be the first to say I dont know the Word like I should but have spent alot of years in trinitarian organizations and knew in my heart Jesus Christ was the Son of God and the only explanation they could come up with in the end when I went to them in tears because I felt God was showing me but the church must be right and wanted help..they could only say you cant understand it just accept it

[Warrior4God]

Here's one that looks objective, though it was flag for weak citation.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trinity

I have seen the site and found alot of the history of the trinity there that the other site I posted confirmed
I realize I am in the minority on my belief but heck so was Paul and Peter

[Warrior4God]

There are times I feel that everyone here is out to prove me wrong as if I was out to demean them somehow

honest I love you all for your stand for God and his word
I wish you could see my heart for God and for you I believe Gods word to be his will for man if you think that not to be the case I cant help that but you know what
I have prayed for each one on here individually and thats the truth

each person I have encountered here I pray will continue to stand
prayer works and ask for your prayers for me and hope you just just sit here and argue to make what you believe right and me wrong

Do you pray here? honestly answer yourself

[prisonchaplain]

That translation makes my point on misunderstood verses.........the word in greek is the same as in John 1:1 and not accurately translated as source the greek word arche
trinitarians translate it one way one time and another way when it fits their doctrine????...........is that rightly dividing the Word? I would rather be wrong then to mistranslate Gods Word wrong

I'm not sure I understand your John 1:1 reference. Furthermore, I guarantee you that even a couple years of Koine Greek study does not qualify one to condemn the translators of God's Word for not rightly dividing it. So, I'm not qualified to discuss the details of the translation. I just pointed out that reputable language scholars agree with my understanding that Jesus was the source of creation, not the first created being.

I will be the first to say I dont know the Word like I should but have spent alot of years in trinitarian organizations and knew in my heart Jesus Christ was the Son of God and the only explanation they could come up with in the end when I went to them in tears because I felt God was showing me but the church must be right and wanted help..they could only say you cant understand it just accept it

On the one hand, I can say the Trinity is not hard to grasp. The Father is God. The Son is God. The Holy Spirit is God. There is only one God. So, these three persons are the one true and living God.

On the other hand, there absolutely is a realm of mystery and not knowing when it comes to God and his kingdom. His nature is far above our nature. His ways are not our ways. We are not privy to the future, as He is. My willingness to move ahead with him, in spite of not knowing all the details, is called faith.

Faith is not blind, but neither is it always clearcut.

[Warrior4God]

I'm not sure I understand your John 1:1 reference. Furthermore, I guarantee you that even a couple years of Koine Greek study does not qualify one to condemn the translators of God's Word for not rightly dividing it. So, I'm not qualified to discuss the details of the translation. I just pointed out that reputable language scholars agree with my understanding that Jesus was the source of creation, not the first created being.


.
Yes they agree with your opinion so of course If the same word for beginning in John 1:1 is translated as source in another verse and no place else as long as it fits the belief is ok to you?
You dont need to be a Dr. of theology to know a definition does not fit unless somehow what you believe justifies it. God did not leave rightly dividing his Word to scholars he left it on your shoulders and mine so IMHO he gives you and I the right and obligation to do so

[HisServant]

There are times I feel that everyone here is out to prove me wrong as if I was out to demean them somehow

honest I love you all for your stand for God and his word
I wish you could see my heart for God and for you I believe Gods word to be his will for man if you think that not to be the case I cant help that but you know what
I have prayed for each one on here individually and thats the truth

each person I have encountered here I pray will continue to stand
prayer works and ask for your prayers for me and hope you just just sit here and argue to make what you believe right and me wrong

Do you pray here? honestly answer yourself

Thank you for your prayers. I know I could use them.

Can you tell me what your point to all of this is however?
I have gotten a bit lost. Are you saying christians should not believe in the Trinity?

[Warrior4God]

Thank you for your prayers. I know I could use them.

Can you tell me what your point to all of this is however?
I have gotten a bit lost. Are you saying christians should not believe in the Trinity?

I am simply saying that I believe Jesus Christ to be Gods only begotten Son
and that all those who believe Jesus is not the Son, but God himself that it seems to contradict what Gods Word and what Jesus Christ spoke concerning himself as never once calling himself God in the flesh and was always subject to his Father who sent him

[HisServant]

I am simply saying that I believe Jesus Christ to be Gods only begotten Son
and that all those who believe Jesus is not the Son, but God himself that it seems to contradict what Gods Word and what Jesus Christ spoke concerning himself as never once calling himself God in the flesh and was always subject to his Father who sent him

Thanks I understand your point.
I do believe in the Trinity. I believe in God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit. But I don't believe that Jesus is God the Father.

[DRS]

If Jesus is the only begotten Son of God, then He too is without beginning.

No because in order for Jesus to be fathered there was a time when he wasn't.




Strange, I thought it said that God's Spirit moved over the face of the earth.

Right is called force or spirit, because it is not a person.

[HisServant]

No because in order for Jesus to be fathered there was a time when he wasn't.






Right is called force or spirit, because it is not a person.

Actually the "Logos" was not "fathered" the way man fathers a child.
He always existed with the Father. But Jesus was Fathered by God when He became a man. Thus Jesus is Immanuel God with us.

The Holy Spirit is a person. Otherwise could you grieve Him? could He teach? could He talk? could He guide? or could He be lied to?

[DRS]

Actually the "Logos" was not "fathered" the way man fathers a child.
He always existed with the Father. But Jesus was Fathered by God when He became a man. Thus Jesus is Immanuel God with us.

The Holy Spirit is a person. Otherwise could you grieve Him? could He teach? could He talk? could He guide? or could He be lied to?

Then how do you explain Proverbs 8:22*“Jehovah himself produced me as the beginning of his way, the earliest of his achievements of long ago. 23*From time indefinite I was installed, from the start, from times earlier than the earth. 24*When there were no watery deeps I was brought forth as with labor pains, when there were no springs heavily charged with water. 25*Before the mountains themselves had been settled down, ahead of the hills, I was brought forth as with labor pains, 26*when as yet he had not made the earth and the open spaces and the first part of the dust masses of the productive land. 27*When he prepared the heavens I was there; when he decreed a circle upon the face of the watery deep, 28*when he made firm the cloud masses above, when he caused the fountains of the watery deep to be strong, 29*when he set for the sea his decree that the waters themselves should not pass beyond his order, when he decreed the foundations of the earth, 30*then I came to be beside him as a master worker, and I came to be the one he was specially fond of day by day, I being glad before him all the time, 31*being glad at the productive land of his earth, and the things I was fond of were with the sons of men

The Holy Spirit is a person. Otherwise could you grieve Him? could He teach? could He talk? could He guide? or could He be lied to?


The spirit is referred to as a force also in the bible, now we use language that assigns persona to parts of us all the time, for instance my heart cries out. You are playing false to you nature.

Throughout the bible every person of importance has a name, there is no name for the holy spirit, it is always seen as obeject, a dove, tongues of fire.

[Jacob_Rising]

You are correct here. The Trinity is a false religious teaching that dishonors the creator. It is NOT taught in the scriptures. Jehovah is the almighty, Jesus Christ is his son and the holy spirit is Jehovahs active force that he uses to accomplish his will.It's taught all over the scriptures but the scriptures are written to Jews and not everyone gets all the meaning.

The Temple on Earth symbolises the temple in heaven, it's in 3 sections and mankind is, it has 3 festivals that pertain to the 3 visitations from God.

Most all the stories have the trinity taught in them.


3 players in the garden, 3 sons of Adam, 3 sons of Noah and even Jacob can be laid out in 3 ways, both Tribal and geogical, The nOrthern Kingdom the southern kingdom and Jerusalem in the middle with a bit of Benjamin in both Kingdoms.

It represents the struggle in the womb of Rebeka, with Jacob and Esau struggling, good and evil within themselves.but Jacob became Israel after he struggled with God and that's the third player.

We have it in Passover, Pentacost and Sukkot.

It is in fact, the way, but the way is broad, It is the truth within the Holy place and the Life in the Holy of Holies.

When Jacob put on the skins of his brother Easu it just showed that they always represented 1 person but out of the two person's, one struggles to conquer, just as our flesh struggles the spirit.

The trinity is the Body, soul and spirit


The Northern Kingdom belongs to the suffering Messiah Ben Yoseph while the Southern Kingdom of Judah represents the Jews.

David beuilt Jerusalem between the two kingdom and Benjamin is a part of Both.

The struggle between good and evil rages within everyone, but only few will be counted Jerusalem.

[Iessaioi]

Since Jesus was the first creation he was the beginning, God has no beginning but Jesus has a beginning.

So whne God said I am making you god to pharaoh He was telling him I will make you a false god?

Do you think there are more than one menaing to God, and that this term that has been applied to angels and judges that act in Jehovah's behalf could be what Thomas was referring to?Where in the Bible does it say Jesus was God's first creation?

No, Thomas was not referring to Jesus as a false god nor as simply a messenger of God. His use of the phrase "my Lord and my God" was an act of worship. If Jesus was just an angel or messenger of God, then he should never have accepted any form of worship.

[Iessaioi]

Son of God is ablsolutely not just a title it declares who he is,and he did have a beginning
Revelation 3:14
And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;I noticed you went to the original Greek in the verse below. Maybe you should do the same for the verse above. Jesus, being the "beginning of the creation of God" does not mean he was the first created. Rather, it is simply saying that he is the origin. Revelation also refers to Jesus as the Alpha and Omega, Beginning and End. So does this mean Jesus is the end of God's creation? Or does it make more sense that Jesus is the author and finisher of our faith. Jesus is the origin and consummation of creation. If Jesus were just a mere creation then how do you explain Colossians 1:16?

"For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:"

How could a mere created being create all things in both heaven and earth?

John 20:28
And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God. (KJV)

1. Jesus never referred to himself as “God” in the absolute sense, so what precedent then did Thomas have for calling Jesus “my God”? The Greek language uses the word theos, (“God” or “god”) with a broader meaning than is customary today. In the Greek language and in the culture of the day, “GOD” (all early manuscripts of the Bible were written in all capital letters) was a descriptive title applied to a range of authorities, including the Roman governor (Acts 12:22), and even the Devil (2 Cor. 4:4). It was used of someone with divine authority. It was not limited to its absolute sense as a personal name for the supreme Deity as we use it today.So you admit that Jesus held divine authority? Do you believe the devil held divine authority?

[prisonchaplain]

No because in order for Jesus to be fathered there was a time when he wasn't.

Then, if we rely on logic, we have an impasse. The begotten child must be what his parent is. Yet, a child must begin. Unless...if the Father is eternal in nature, then his child would be too.


Right is called force or spirit, because it is not a person.

So, in your world, a spirit is not a person?

[CALady]

Yes, but when John wrote that I believe that when he said "Him", he was thinking Trinity. ;)


Remember how John started his book, the word was both with God, and was God.

John was not a polytheist. He believed in one true God.


(Yes, I know only two are mentioned here, but you know what I am saying.)

So someone who repents and prays in the name of Jesus Christ, who "believes" in Him as their savior, isn't good enough?

Do you know this person's heart? Do you really think that this sincere Christian would be in the group who cry "Lord! Lord!" and yet the Savior says "I don't know you because you have an incorrect view of the Trinity."

Seriously?

I believe that someone who goes around claiming "I know the Trinity and you don't! YOU are condemned because you don't have MY understanding of this doctrine!" is more likely to be the one surprised when Jesus says "I don't know you."

That attitude is missing the point of the Gospel entirely, IMHO.

[CALady]

We ought to know who it is we worship, no?

Yes, but to what degree of understanding? Does the Nicene Creed really make it more clear? Or is it simply an attempt to describe something that no one can describe? Can anyone truly understand the nature of God? Or is the child's faith in Jesus really all that's required?

Actually, I think you agree with me on this.

As for having the "correct" view of Jesus, don't we all perceive Him in a rather unique manner? We each experience Him in a very personal way, within all our personal biases. Neither of us could describe what a cloud looks like in exactly the same way, but we can agree we're talking about a cloud, not a rock.

[CALady]

Let me just say that this is a great string. We have LDS, Oneness, Jehovah's Witnesses, and various Trinitarians intelligently and respectfully discussing the nature of God. Kudos to us. I'm frankly still somewhere in the mid-60s or so, and will respond to interesting posts as I am able.

Hmm... I haven't really seen any discussions from LDS here other than Snow and I making brief responses. ;)

[ralittlefield]

So someone who repents and prays in the name of Jesus Christ, who "believes" in Him as their savior, isn't good enough?

Do you know this person's heart? Do you really think that this sincere Christian would be in the group who cry "Lord! Lord!" and yet the Savior says "I don't know you because you have an incorrect view of the Trinity."

Seriously?

I believe that someone who goes around claiming "I know the Trinity and you don't! YOU are condemned because you don't have MY understanding of this doctrine!" is more likely to be the one surprised when Jesus says "I don't know you."

That attitude is missing the point of the Gospel entirely, IMHO.

Wow! Did you ever read a lot into my post!

Do you really think that I was saying all of that?

Let me be clear. I am perfectly willing to leave all of that up to God.

That does not mean that I do not have an opinion, based on my understanding of what the Bible says, of who God is.


BTW
If I tell you that the court will fine you for speeding on the highway, does that make me as judgemental as you have painted me in your post?

Laws are disputed all the time, that doe not mean that we can not have an opinion of how the courts will react.

[CALady]

Wow! Did you ever read a lot into my post!

Do you really think that I was saying all of that?

Let me be clear. I am perfectly willing to leave all of that up to God.

That does not mean that I do not have an opinion, based on my understanding of what the Bible says, of who God is.


BTW
If I tell you that the court will fine you for speeding on the highway, does that make me as judgemental as you have painted me in your post?

Laws are disputed all the time, that doe not mean that we can not have an opinion of how the courts will react.


Sorry, I may have been reading other comments into your post.

[DRS]

Then, if we rely on logic, we have an impasse. The begotten child must be what his parent is. Yet, a child must begin. Unless...if the Father is eternal in nature, then his child would be too.

God created all things including the matter needed to create the Earth does this mean the Earth is eternal and without beginning?



So, in your world, a spirit is not a person?

Spirit had two menings, first it can refer to a persons body, ir angels have spirit bodies. Or it can refer to the motivating force in a person. ie he or she has good team spirit.

[Renegade56]

Justin Martyr: "...the Father of the universe has a Son; who being the logos and First-begotten is also God" (First Apology 63:15).
Irenaeus: (referencing Jesus) "...in order that to Christ Jesus, our Lord, and God, and Savior, and King, according to the will of the invisible Father, . . ." (Against Heresies I, x, 1).
Clement of Alexandria: "Both as God and as man, the Lord renders us every kind of help and service. As God He forgives sin, as man He educates us to avoid sin completely" (Christ the Educator, chapter 3.1). In addition, "Our educator, O children, resembles His Father, God, whose son He is. He is without sin, without blame, without passion of soul, God immaculate in form of man accomplishing His Father's will" (Christ the Educator Chapter 2:4).
Tertullian: "...the only God has also a Son, his Word who has proceeded from himself, by whom all things were made and without whom nothing has been made: that this was sent by the Father into the virgin and was born of her both man and God. Son of Man, Son of God, ..." (Against Praxeas, 2).
Hippolytus: "And the blessed John in the testimony of his gospel, gives us an account of this economy and acknowledges this word as God, when he says, 'In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God and the Word was God.' If then the Word was with God and was also God, what follows? Would one say that he speaks of two Gods? I shall not indeed speak of two Gods, but of one; of two persons however, and of a third economy, the grace of the Holy Ghost" (Against the Heresy of One Noetus. 14).
Origen: (with regard to John 1:1) "...the arrangement of the sentences might be thought to indicate an order; we have first, 'in the beginning was the Word,' then 'And the Word was with God,' and thirdly, 'and the Word was God,' so that it might be seen that the Word being with God makes Him God" (Commentary on John, Book 2, Chapter 1).
Not only in these instances, but also throughout their writings the ante-Nicene fathers strongly defend the deity of Christ.
:D

[DRS]

I noticed you went to the original Greek in the verse below. Maybe you should do the same for the verse above. Jesus, being the "beginning of the creation of God" does not mean he was the first created. Rather, it is simply saying that he is the origin. Revelation also refers to Jesus as the Alpha and Omega, Beginning and End. So does this mean Jesus is the end of God's creation? Or does it make more sense that Jesus is the author and finisher of our faith. Jesus is the origin and consummation of creation. If Jesus were just a mere creation then how do you explain Colossians 1:16?

"For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:"

How could a mere created being create all things in both heaven and earth?

So you admit that Jesus held divine authority? Do you believe the devil held divine authority?

Colossians is quite easily understood in light of Proverbs 8:22-31 and John 1:3.

Remeber in Revelation there are 4 speakers 1 A revelation by Jesus Christ, which God gave him, to show his slaves the things that must shortly take place. And he sent forth his angel and presented [it] in signs through him to his slave John, 2*who bore witness to the word God gave and to the witness Jesus Christ gave, even to all the things he saw. 3*Happy is he who reads aloud and those who hear the words of this prophecy, and who observe the things written in it; for the appointed time is near

[DRS]

Where in the Bible does it say Jesus was God's first creation?

No, Thomas was not referring to Jesus as a false god nor as simply a messenger of God. His use of the phrase "my Lord and my God" was an act of worship. If Jesus was just an angel or messenger of God, then he should never have accepted any form of worship.

22*“Jehovah himself produced me as the beginning of his way, the earliest of his achievements of long ago. 23*From time indefinite I was installed, from the start, from times earlier than the earth. 24*When there were no watery deeps I was brought forth as with labor pains, when there were no springs heavily charged with water. 25*Before the mountains themselves had been settled down, ahead of the hills, I was brought forth as with labor pains, 26*when as yet he had not made the earth and the open spaces and the first part of the dust masses of the productive land. 27*When he prepared the heavens I was there; when he decreed a circle upon the face of the watery deep, 28*when he made firm the cloud masses above, when he caused the fountains of the watery deep to be strong, 29*when he set for the sea his decree that the waters themselves should not pass beyond his order, when he decreed the foundations of the earth, 30*then I came to be beside him as a master worker, and I came to be the one he was specially fond of day by day, I being glad before him all the time, 31*being glad at the productive land of his earth, and the things I was fond of were with the sons of men

Thomas was a Jew was he not?

[Gospel Checker]

The bottom line is that there is only one Jesus Christ and if you don't know who He is, then you have a different gospel.

[DRS]

The bottom line is that there is only one Jesus Christ and if you don't know who He is, then you have a different gospel.

Right Jesus the apostle, high priest and mediator between God and man.

[HisServant]

Then how do you explain Proverbs 8:22*“Jehovah himself produced me as the beginning of his way, the earliest of his achievements of long ago. 23*From time indefinite I was installed, from the start, from times earlier than the earth. 24*When there were no watery deeps I was brought forth as with labor pains, when there were no springs heavily charged with water. 25*Before the mountains themselves had been settled down, ahead of the hills, I was brought forth as with labor pains, 26*when as yet he had not made the earth and the open spaces and the first part of the dust masses of the productive land. 27*When he prepared the heavens I was there; when he decreed a circle upon the face of the watery deep, 28*when he made firm the cloud masses above, when he caused the fountains of the watery deep to be strong, 29*when he set for the sea his decree that the waters themselves should not pass beyond his order, when he decreed the foundations of the earth, 30*then I came to be beside him as a master worker, and I came to be the one he was specially fond of day by day, I being glad before him all the time, 31*being glad at the productive land of his earth, and the things I was fond of were with the sons of men




The spirit is referred to as a force also in the bible, now we use language that assigns persona to parts of us all the time, for instance my heart cries out. You are playing false to you nature.

Throughout the bible every person of importance has a name, there is no name for the holy spirit, it is always seen as obeject, a dove, tongues of fire.

We went through this already. Read verse 1 of Prov 8. The chapter is talking about Wisdom not Jesus. This is known as keeping things in context.

No name? I always called Him Holy Spirit. Spirit Of God. God the Holy Spirit.
Jesus calls Him "Comforter", "Spirit of All Truth", "Helper".

[DRS]

We went through this already. Read verse 1 of Prov 8. The chapter is talking about Wisdom not Jesus. This is known as keeping things in context.

No name? I always called Him Holy Spirit. Spirit Of God. God the Holy Spirit.
Jesus calls Him "Comforter", "Spirit of All Truth", "Helper".

So did wisdom create?

Was widom beside Goad as a master worker? Colossians say this is Jesus, and Paul refers to Jesus as the wisdom of God.

No name everyone has a name not a title.

[Gospel Checker]

Right Jesus the apostle, high priest and mediator between God and man.


See what I mean? :D

[HisServant]

Right Jesus the apostle, high priest and mediator between God and man.

Where in scripture is He called apostle?

He is:
JESUS Son of God.
Jesus the Lamb that takes away the sin of the word.
Jesus the alpha and omega.
Jesus the Way, The Truth and the Life.

[DRS]

JESUS Son of God.

That is another title for him.

[DRS]

See what I mean? :D

Apparently I left out son of God.

[HisServant]

So did wisdom create?

Was widom beside Goad as a master worker? Colossians say this is Jesus, and Paul refers to Jesus as the wisdom of God.

No name everyone has a name not a title.

I hope God had wisdom in creating and did not check it at the door.

Chapter and verse please.

Just your opinion.

Jesus never said I'll send you a force. He said I'll send you another comforter.

[HisServant]

Apparently I left out son of God.

My friend there are a lot of things you leave out.

[DRS]

My friend there are a lot of things you leave out.

No there is not, those are other titles or roles Jesus has.

[DRS]

I hope God had wisdom in creating and did not check it at the door.

Chapter and verse please.

Just your opinion.

Jesus never said I'll send you a force. He said I'll send you another comforter.

1 Corinthains 1:22

Actually it is well known that the passage in Provebs refers to Jesus.

Also with regards the Holy Spirit John 20:22*And after he said this he blew upon them and said to them: “Receive holy spirit

[rhet 2]

No man has seen the Creator except through the Son.

And, if you have seen the Son, then you have seen the Father.

Since I seek peace with the Creator/Judge, I have only one way to get there -- through the Son.

And that makes the Trinity a very real reality.

[rhet 2]

I hope God had wisdom in creating and did not check it at the door.

Chapter and verse please.

Just your opinion.

Jesus never said I'll send you a force. He said I'll send you another comforter.

Truth.

[DRS]

No man has seen the Creator except through the Son.

And, if you have seen the Son, then you have seen the Father.

Since I seek peace with the Creator/Judge, I have only one way to get there -- through the Son.

And that makes the Trinity a very real reality.

The bible says no man has seen God at anytime, the son explained him.

[rhet 2]

The bible says no man has seen God at anytime, the son explained him.

Then how do you explain Moses on Mt. Sinai? Must have been the Son explaining the Law and God to him, too, huh?

[DRS]

Then how do you explain Moses on Mt. Sinai? Must have been the Son explaining the Law and God to him, too, huh?

37*“This is the Moses that said to the sons of Israel, ‘God will raise up for YOU from among YOUR brothers a prophet like me.’ 38*This is he that came to be among the congregation in the wilderness with the angel that spoke to him on Mount Si′nai and with our forefathers, and he received living sacred pronouncements to give YOU. 39*To him our forefathers refused to become obedient, but they thrust him aside and in their hearts they turned back to Egypt, 40*saying to Aaron, ‘Make gods for us to go ahead of us. For this Moses, who led us out of the land of Egypt, we do not know what has happened to him.’ 41*So they made a calf in those days and brought up a sacrifice to the idol and began to enjoy themselves in the works of their hands. 42*So God turned and handed them over to render sacred service to the army of heaven, just as it is written in the book of the prophets, ‘It was not to me that YOU offered victims and sacrifices for forty years in the wilderness, was it, O house of Israel? 43*But it was the tent of Mo′loch and the star of the god Re′phan that YOU took up, the figures which YOU made to worship them. Consequently I will deport YOU beyond Babylon.’

[prisonchaplain]

So someone who repents and prays in the name of Jesus Christ, who "believes" in Him as their savior, isn't good enough?

Do you know this person's heart? Do you really think that this sincere Christian would be in the group who cry "Lord! Lord!" and yet the Savior says "I don't know you because you have an incorrect view of the Trinity."

Seriously?

I believe that someone who goes around claiming "I know the Trinity and you don't! YOU are condemned because you don't have MY understanding of this doctrine!" is more likely to be the one surprised when Jesus says "I don't know you."

That attitude is missing the point of the Gospel entirely, IMHO.

Of course, the extreme of this argument is that doctrine does not matter. We know that it does. We are told to contend for the truth, to reject false teaching, to cast away the teachings of the Nicolatians, to reject the "Super Apostles," as Paul calls his critics. Timothy is told to study so he can rightly divide the Word of God.

So, in the effort to denounce the harshness of theological idolatry, let us yet embrace the rigorous pursuit of spiritual truth. Part of knowing God is reflecting him, but another part is indeed aprehending Him.

[prisonchaplain]

Yes, but to what degree of understanding? Does the Nicene Creed really make it more clear? Or is it simply an attempt to describe something that no one can describe? Can anyone truly understand the nature of God? Or is the child's faith in Jesus really all that's required?

Actually, I think you agree with me on this.

Yes and no. As we mature we put away childish things. It's sweet when a six year prays for candy. It's foolishness when an adult does so. Likewise, as we grow in knowledge, studying doctrine about the nature of God is most worthwhile. The creeds represent the wisdom of those "called to be teachers." So, they are fruitful--much as you might find the texts of General Conference speeches.

As for having the "correct" view of Jesus, don't we all perceive Him in a rather unique manner? We each experience Him in a very personal way, within all our personal biases. Neither of us could describe what a cloud looks like in exactly the same way, but we can agree we're talking about a cloud, not a rock.

There is personal knowing and there is knowing about. Christians ought to pursue both.

[prisonchaplain]

Hmm... I haven't really seen any discussions from LDS here other than Snow and I making brief responses. ;)

What about the poster with the Reagan avatar?

[rhet 2]

Of course, the extreme of this argument is that doctrine does not matter. We know that it does. We are told to contend for the truth, to reject false teaching, to cast away the teachings of the Nicolatians, to reject the "Super Apostles," as Paul calls his critics. Timothy is told to study so he can rightly divide the Word of God.

So, in the effort to denounce the harshness of theological idolatry, let us yet embrace the rigorous pursuit of spiritual truth. Part of knowing God is reflecting him, but another part is indeed aprehending Him.

It is necessary that we be as Sardis -- and fight to keep our doctrines pure, our hearts fixed on truth and not in following after false prophets, yes.

[Harmonious]

Testimony of the Hebrew Scriptures




WHILE the word "Trinity" is not found in the Bible, is at least the idea of the Trinity taught clearly in it? For instance, what do the Hebrew Scriptures ("Old Testament") reveal?

The Encyclopedia of Religion admits: "Theologians today are in agreement that the Hebrew Bible does not contain a doctrine of the Trinity." And the New Catholic Encyclopedia also says: "The doctrine of the Holy Trinity is not taught in the O[ld] T[estament]."

Similarly, in his book The Triune God, Jesuit Edmund Fortman admits: "The Old Testament . . . tells us nothing explicitly or by necessary implication of a Triune God who is Father, Son and Holy Spirit. . . . There is no evidence that any sacred writer even suspected the existence of a [Trinity] within the Godhead. . . . Even to see in [the "Old Testament"] suggestions or foreshadowings or 'veiled signs' of the trinity of persons, is to go beyond the words and intent of the sacred writers."—Italics ours.

An examination of the Hebrew Scriptures themselves will bear out these comments. Thus, there is no clear teaching of a Trinity in the first 39 books of the Bible that make up the true canon of the inspired Hebrew Scriptures.Hooray! We can agree completely on this one!

[prisonchaplain]

God created all things including the matter needed to create the Earth does this mean the Earth is eternal and without beginning?

Actually, it was Jesus who created all things.

The Supremacy of Christ: Colossians 1:15-17

15He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him. 17He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.

Spirit had two menings, first it can refer to a persons body, ir angels have spirit bodies. Or it can refer to the motivating force in a person. ie he or she has good team spirit.

The whole idea of a holy (sacred, pure, clean) 'motivating force' strikes me as odd.

[Harmonious]

Actually, it was Jesus who created all things.

But you and I can disagree about that one. Really and truly.

[prisonchaplain]

But you and I can disagree about that one. Really and truly.

Yes, and there is probably no halfway meeting point, or compromise possible, either. :angel:

[Warrior4God]

Yes, and there is probably no halfway meeting point, or compromise possible, either. :angel:

I enjoy how you respond to everyone
what denomination are you?

[Hadassah]

Now I feel like I need to salute! ;) :mrgreen:

Seriously though, I just saw your post and I will respond to the OP. It just won't be today. I have to leave for work in about 20 minutes.

Warrior4God, I know I said I'd respond, but I have had so much come up in the last couple days that I haven't had time. But it looks as if others have done a good job doing what I had planned on doing anyway.

[DRS]

Actually, it was Jesus who created all things.

The Supremacy of Christ: Colossians 1:15-17

15He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him. 17He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.



The whole idea of a holy (sacred, pure, clean) 'motivating force' strikes me as odd.

Colossians does not cancel out Proverbs 8, it backs it up, Proverbs 8 shows him beside God as a master worker.

[Warrior4God]

Warrior4God, I know I said I'd respond, but I have had so much come up in the last couple days that I haven't had time. But it looks as if others have done a good job doing what I had planned on doing anyway.

thats coolaroozie:cool:

[DRS]

So, in the effort to denounce the harshness of theological idolatry, let us yet embrace the rigorous pursuit of spiritual truth.

It is intersting you talk about idolatry, because I see what happening with Jesus being the same as what happened with the copper serpant. God had the serpant made so all looking to it would get saved from the bites. This was to prefigure Jesus.

The Jews ended making the serpant the main object of their worship and ignored Jehovah, the same seems to happen with Jesus.

[Warrior4God]

It is intersting you talk about idolatry, because I see what happening with Jesus being the same as what happened with the copper serpant. God had the serpant made so all looking to it would get saved from the bites. This was to prefigure Jesus.

The Jews ended making the serpant the main object of their worship and ignored Jehovah, the same seems to happen with Jesus.

thats interesting I need to look into that first I ever heard that

[DRS]

thats interesting I need to look into that first I ever heard that

Numbers 21 Now the Ca′naan·ite the king of A′rad, who dwelt in the Neg′eb, got to hear that Israel had come by the way of Ath′a·rim, and he began to fight with Israel and carry away some of them as captives. 2*Consequently Israel made a vow to Jehovah and said: “If you will without fail give this people into my hand, I shall also certainly devote their cities to destruction.” 3*So Jehovah listened to Israel’s voice and gave the Ca′naan·ites over; and they devoted them and their cities to destruction. Hence they called the name of the place Hor′mah.

4*While they continued trekking from Mount Hor by the way of the Red Sea to go around the land of E′dom, the soul of the people began tiring out because of the way. 5*And the people kept speaking against God and Moses: “Why have YOU brought us up out of Egypt to die in the wilderness? For there is no bread and no water, and our soul has come to abhor the contemptible bread.” 6*So Jehovah sent poisonous serpents among the people, and they kept biting the people, so that many people of Israel died.

7*Finally the people came to Moses and said: “We have sinned, because we have spoken against Jehovah and against you. Intercede with Jehovah that he may remove the serpents from upon us.” And Moses went interceding in behalf of the people. 8*Then Jehovah said to Moses: “Make for yourself a fiery snake and place it upon a signal pole. And it must occur that when anyone has been bitten, he then has to look at it and so must keep alive.” 9*Moses at once made a serpent of copper and placed it upon the signal pole; and it did occur that if a serpent had bitten a man and he gazed at the copper serpent, he then kept alive

2 Kings 18 And it came about in the third year of Ho·she′a the son of E′lah the king of Israel that Hez·e·ki′ah the son of A′haz the king of Judah became king. 2*Twenty-five years old he happened to be when he began to reign, and for twenty-nine years he reigned in Jerusalem. And his mother’s name was A′bi the daughter of Zech·a·ri′ah. 3*And he continued to do what was right in Jehovah’s eyes, according to all that David his forefather had done. 4*He it was that removed the high places and broke the sacred pillars to pieces and cut down the sacred pole and crushed to pieces the copper serpent that Moses had made; for down to those days the sons of Israel had continually been making sacrificial smoke to it, and it used to be called the copper serpent-idol.

John 3:13*Moreover, no man has ascended into heaven but he that descended from heaven, the Son of man. 14*And just as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so the Son of man must be lifted up, 15*that everyone believing in him may have everlasting life

Hope this helps

[Harmonious]

It is intersting you talk about idolatry, because I see what happening with Jesus being the same as what happened with the copper serpant. God had the serpant made so all looking to it would get saved from the bites. This was to prefigure Jesus.

The Jews ended making the serpant the main object of their worship and ignored Jehovah, the same seems to happen with Jesus.Jews are not supposed to worship anything but God. Note - it was a GOOD idea that Hezekiah melted the copper serpent down.

Now, I'm not saying that Jews killed Jesus, but when you take into consideration the fact that in Egypt, Jews were supposed to have goats, Egyptian gods, tied up inside their houses for 5 days before they slaughtered the goats and put their blood on the doorposts...

Jews have killed false gods before. It's what we are supposed to do. Jesus wasn't one of them, but he wasn't considered a god in his lifetime, either.

But there is a commentary that was hidden for centuries, as Jews were afraid of what the Christian censors might have said, that said that if Jesus proclaimed that he was a god, then it was right and fitting for the Jews to kill him, and all false gods should be dispatched so easily.

[HisServant]

The bible says no man has seen God at anytime, the son explained him.

I think one of the problems we have is you keep talking about the human Jesus and forgetting that He was the LOGOS. As such He has seen God the Father since He came from the Father. And He is the express image of the Father. So man has seen God at anytime except the Son is a very true statement.

As far as 1 cor 1:22 I have read it 4 times and have no idea how this says Jesus is an Apostle or nor does it call Jesus wisdom.

[DRS]

Jews are not supposed to worship anything but God. Note - it was a GOOD idea that Hezekiah melted the copper serpent down.

Now, I'm not saying that Jews killed Jesus, but when you take into consideration the fact that in Egypt, Jews were supposed to have goats, Egyptian gods, tied up inside their houses for 5 days before they slaughtered the goats and put their blood on the doorposts...

Jews have killed false gods before. It's what we are supposed to do. Jesus wasn't one of them, but he wasn't considered a god in his lifetime, either.

But there is a commentary that was hidden for centuries, as Jews were afraid of what the Christian censors might have said, that said that if Jesus proclaimed that he was a god, then it was right and fitting for the Jews to kill him, and all false gods should be dispatched so easily.


Jesus never asked to be worshipped, He prayed that God name be glorified, never sought glory for himself.

God knows what the human inclination is, why do you think He Moses bones were never found?

[HisServant]

37*“This is the Moses that said to the sons of Israel, ‘God will raise up for YOU from among YOUR brothers a prophet like me.’ 38*This is he that came to be among the congregation in the wilderness with the angel that spoke to him on Mount Si′nai and with our forefathers, and he received living sacred pronouncements to give YOU. 39*To him our forefathers refused to become obedient, but they thrust him aside and in their hearts they turned back to Egypt, 40*saying to Aaron, ‘Make gods for us to go ahead of us. For this Moses, who led us out of the land of Egypt, we do not know what has happened to him.’ 41*So they made a calf in those days and brought up a sacrifice to the idol and began to enjoy themselves in the works of their hands. 42*So God turned and handed them over to render sacred service to the army of heaven, just as it is written in the book of the prophets, ‘It was not to me that YOU offered victims and sacrifices for forty years in the wilderness, was it, O house of Israel? 43*But it was the tent of Mo′loch and the star of the god Re′phan that YOU took up, the figures which YOU made to worship them. Consequently I will deport YOU beyond Babylon.’
This is no where in the Bible.

[mom4conservatives]

I just found this thread and alll I have to say is without the trinity and without the Gospel you have nothing.

[DRS]

I think one of the problems we have is you keep talking about the human Jesus and forgetting that He was the LOGOS. As such He has seen God the Father since He came from the Father. And He is the express image of the Father. So man has seen God at anytime except the Son is a very true statement.

As far as 1 cor 1:22 I have read it 4 times and have no idea how this says Jesus is an Apostle or nor does it call Jesus wisdom.

22*For both the Jews ask for signs and the Greeks look for wisdom; 23*but we preach Christ impaled, to the Jews a cause for stumbling but to the nations foolishness; 24*however, to those who are the called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God

Apostle is in Hebrews

3 Consequently, holy brothers, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the apostle and high priest whom we confess—Jesus. 2*He was faithful to the One that made him such, as Moses was also in all the house of that One

[Harmonious]

Jesus never asked to be worshipped, He prayed that God name be glorified, never sought glory for himself.

God knows what the human inclination is, why do you think He Moses bones were never found?

God is good, and God knew that hiding Moses' grave was a very good decision.

It is close to Passover. Tonight is the first of Nissan!

I have a tendency to think along these lines.

[DRS]

This is no where in the Bible.

Acts 7

[HisServant]

22*For both the Jews ask for signs and the Greeks look for wisdom; 23*but we preach Christ impaled, to the Jews a cause for stumbling but to the nations foolishness; 24*however, to those who are the called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God

Apostle is in Hebrews

3 Consequently, holy brothers, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the apostle and high priest whom we confess—Jesus. 2*He was faithful to the One that made him such, as Moses was also in all the house of that One

please quote chapter and verse. Thank you.

[prisonchaplain]

I enjoy how you respond to everyone
what denomination are you?

Assemblies of God

[prisonchaplain]

Colossians does not cancel out Proverbs 8, it backs it up, Proverbs 8 shows him beside God as a master worker.

You did catch the part about all things not only being made by Jesus, but also FOR Jesus?

[prisonchaplain]

It is intersting you talk about idolatry, because I see what happening with Jesus being the same as what happened with the copper serpant. God had the serpant made so all looking to it would get saved from the bites. This was to prefigure Jesus.

The Jews ended making the serpant the main object of their worship and ignored Jehovah, the same seems to happen with Jesus.

I think you have captured the primary dilineation between your organization and Christianity: We worship Jesus and you really don't. You love him, and embrace his teachings. But, you do not worship him. So, in essence, your faith is something between Judaism and Christianity. In some ways similar to (not the same) as Islam--honoring Jesus, but loathe to worship him.

[prisonchaplain]

Jews are not supposed to worship anything but God. Note - it was a GOOD idea that Hezekiah melted the copper serpent down.

Now, I'm not saying that Jews killed Jesus, but when you take into consideration the fact that in Egypt, Jews were supposed to have goats, Egyptian gods, tied up inside their houses for 5 days before they slaughtered the goats and put their blood on the doorposts...

Jews have killed false gods before. It's what we are supposed to do. Jesus wasn't one of them, but he wasn't considered a god in his lifetime, either.

But there is a commentary that was hidden for centuries, as Jews were afraid of what the Christian censors might have said, that said that if Jesus proclaimed that he was a god, then it was right and fitting for the Jews to kill him, and all false gods should be dispatched so easily.

I'll give you my reaction to that commentary: It makes total sense. If Jesus was not the Son of God, then He was a blasphemer. In John 8, the teachers of the law basically ask Jesus who he thinks he is. He responds that Abraham was glad to see his day. They respond that he's looking awfully young to be talking about Abraham. Jesus says, "Before Abraham was, I AM."

The crowd immediately pick up stones to kill him. They understand that He has claimed to be Jehovah God. They do not believe him, and so judge him a blasphemer. The reaction is to be expected.

(Of course, we Christians believed that the crowd got it wrong--that He was who he claimed to be.)

[MPK]

I think you have captured the primary dilineation between your organization and Christianity: We worship Jesus and you really don't. You love him, and embrace his teachings. But, you do not worship him. So, in essence, your faith is something between Judaism and Christianity. In some ways similar to (not the same) as Islam--honoring Jesus, but loathe to worship him.

Actually Jehovahs Witnesses ARE true christians. Jehovahs witnesses worship the god that Jesus worships, that of course would be his father Jehovah. A christian is a follower of Christ and his teachings. Mainstream so called christians do not follow Christs' teachings.

[lucky]

Should You Believe in the Trinity?

Is It Clearly a Bible Teaching?



IF THE Trinity were true, it should be clearly and consistently presented in the Bible. Why? Because, as the apostles affirmed, the Bible is God's revelation of himself to mankind. And since we need to know God to worship him acceptably, the Bible should be clear in telling us just who he is.

First-century believers accepted the Scriptures as the authentic revelation of God. It was the basis for their beliefs, the final authority. For example, when the apostle Paul preached to people in the city of Beroea, "they received the word with the greatest eagerness of mind, carefully examining the Scriptures daily as to whether these things were so."—Acts 17:10, 11.

What did prominent men of God at that time use as their authority? Acts 17:2, 3 tells us: "According to Paul's custom . . . he reasoned with them from the Scriptures, explaining and proving by references [from the Scriptures]."

Jesus himself set the example in using the Scriptures as the basis for his teaching, repeatedly saying: "It is written." "He interpreted to them things pertaining to himself in all the Scriptures."—Matthew 4:4, 7; Luke 24:27.

Thus Jesus, Paul, and first-century believers used the Scriptures as the foundation for their teaching. They knew that "all Scripture is inspired of God and beneficial for teaching, for reproving, for setting things straight, for disciplining in righteousness, that the man of God may be fully competent, completely equipped for every good work."—2 Timothy 3:16, 17; see also 1 Corinthians 4:6; 1 Thessalonians 2:13; 2 Peter 1:20, 21.

Since the Bible can 'set things straight,' it should clearly reveal information about a matter as fundamental as the Trinity is claimed to be. But do theologians and historians themselves say that it is clearly a Bible teaching?

"Trinity" in the Bible?




A PROTESTANT publication states: "The word Trinity is not found in the Bible . . . It did not find a place formally in the theology of the church till the 4th century." (The Illustrated Bible Dictionary) And a Catholic authority says that the Trinity "is not . . . directly and immediately [the] word of God."—New Catholic Encyclopedia.

The Catholic Encyclopedia also comments: "In Scripture there is as yet no single term by which the Three Divine Persons are denoted together. The word [tri'as] (of which the Latin trinitas is a translation) is first found in Theophilus of Antioch about A. D. 180. . . . Shortly afterwards it appears in its Latin form of trinitas in Tertullian."

However, this is no proof in itself that Tertullian taught the Trinity. The Catholic work Trinitas—A Theological Encyclopedia of the Holy Trinity, for example, notes that some of Tertullian's words were later used by others to describe the Trinity. Then it cautions: "But hasty conclusions cannot be drawn from usage, for he does not apply the words to Trinitarian theology."

Testimony of the Hebrew Scriptures




WHILE the word "Trinity" is not found in the Bible, is at least the idea of the Trinity taught clearly in it? For instance, what do the Hebrew Scriptures ("Old Testament") reveal?

The Encyclopedia of Religion admits: "Theologians today are in agreement that the Hebrew Bible does not contain a doctrine of the Trinity." And the New Catholic Encyclopedia also says: "The doctrine of the Holy Trinity is not taught in the O[ld] T[estament]."

Similarly, in his book The Triune God, Jesuit Edmund Fortman admits: "The Old Testament . . . tells us nothing explicitly or by necessary implication of a Triune God who is Father, Son and Holy Spirit. . . . There is no evidence that any sacred writer even suspected the existence of a [Trinity] within the Godhead. . . . Even to see in [the "Old Testament"] suggestions or foreshadowings or 'veiled signs' of the trinity of persons, is to go beyond the words and intent of the sacred writers."—Italics ours.

An examination of the Hebrew Scriptures themselves will bear out these comments. Thus, there is no clear teaching of a Trinity in the first 39 books of the Bible that make up the true canon of the inspired Hebrew Scriptures.

Testimony of the Greek Scriptures




WELL, then, do the Christian Greek Scriptures ("New Testament") speak clearly of a Trinity?

The Encyclopedia of Religion says: "Theologians agree that the New Testament also does not contain an explicit doctrine of the Trinity."

Jesuit Fortman states: "The New Testament writers . . . give us no formal or formulated doctrine of the Trinity, no explicit teaching that in one God there are three co-equal divine persons. . . . Nowhere do we find any trinitarian doctrine of three distinct subjects of divine life and activity in the same Godhead."

The New Encyclopædia Britannica observes: "Neither the word Trinity nor the explicit doctrine appears in the New Testament."

Bernhard Lohse says in A Short History of Christian Doctrine: "As far as the New Testament is concerned, one does not find in it an actual doctrine of the Trinity."

The New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology similarly states: "The N[ew] T[estament] does not contain the developed doctrine of the Trinity. 'The Bible lacks the express declaration that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are of equal essence' [said Protestant theologian Karl Barth]."

Yale University professor E. Washburn Hopkins affirmed: "To Jesus and Paul the doctrine of the trinity was apparently unknown; . . . they say nothing about it."—Origin and Evolution of Religion.

Historian Arthur Weigall notes: "Jesus Christ never mentioned such a phenomenon, and nowhere in the New Testament does the word 'Trinity' appear. The idea was only adopted by the Church three hundred years after the death of our Lord."—The Paganism in Our Christianity.

Thus, neither the 39 books of the Hebrew Scriptures nor the canon of 27 inspired books of the Christian Greek Scriptures provide any clear teaching of the Trinity.

Taught by Early Christians?




DID the early Christians teach the Trinity? Note the following comments by historians and theologians:

"Primitive Christianity did not have an explicit doctrine of the Trinity such as was subsequently elaborated in the creeds."—The New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology.

"The early Christians, however, did not at first think of applying the [Trinity] idea to their own faith. They paid their devotions to God the Father and to Jesus Christ, the Son of God, and they recognised the . . . Holy Spirit; but there was no thought of these three being an actual Trinity, co-equal and united in One."—The Paganism in Our Christianity.

"At first the Christian faith was not Trinitarian . . . It was not so in the apostolic and sub-apostolic ages, as reflected in the N[ew] T[estament] and other early Christian writings."—Encyclopædia of Religion and Ethics.

"The formulation 'one God in three Persons' was not solidly established, certainly not fully assimilated into Christian life and its profession of faith, prior to the end of the 4th century. . . . Among the Apostolic Fathers, there had been nothing even remotely approaching such a mentality or perspective."—New Catholic Encyclopedia.

What the Ante-Nicene Fathers Taught




THE ante-Nicene Fathers were acknowledged to have been leading religious teachers in the early centuries after Christ's birth. What they taught is of interest.



Irenaeus, who died about 200 C.E., said that the prehuman Jesus had a separate existence from God and was inferior to him. He showed that Jesus is not equal to the "One true and only God," who is "supreme over all, and besides whom there is no other."

Clement of Alexandria, who died about 215 C.E., called Jesus in his prehuman existence "a creature" but called God "the uncreated and imperishable and only true God." He said that the Son "is next to the only omnipotent Father" but not equal to him.

Tertullian, who died about 230 C.E., taught the supremacy of God. He observed: "The Father is different from the Son (another), as he is greater; as he who begets is different from him who is begotten; he who sends, different from him who is sent." He also said: "There was a time when the Son was not. . . . Before all things, God was alone."

Hippolytus, who died about 235 C.E., said that God is "the one God, the first and the only One, the Maker and Lord of all," who "had nothing co-eval [of equal age] with him . . . But he was One, alone by himself; who, willing it, called into being what had no being before," such as the created prehuman Jesus.

"There is no evidence that any sacred writer even suspected the existence of a [Trinity] within the Godhead."—The Triune God


Origen, who died about 250 C.E., said that "the Father and Son are two substances . . . two things as to their essence," and that "compared with the Father, [the Son] is a very small light."

Summing up the historical evidence, Alvan Lamson says in The Church of the First Three Centuries: "The modern popular doctrine of the Trinity . . . derives no support from the language of Justin [Martyr]: and this observation may be extended to all the ante-Nicene Fathers; that is, to all Christian writers for three centuries after the birth of Christ. It is true, they speak of the Father, Son, and . . . holy Spirit, but not as co-equal, not as one numerical essence, not as Three in One, in any sense now admitted by Trinitarians. The very reverse is the fact."

Thus, the testimony of the Bible and of history makes clear that the Trinity was unknown throughout Biblical times and for several centuries thereafter.Comments?
The Watch Tower doesn't really offer anything else, do they?

Have you ever read these quotes in full context? :rolleyes:

[DRS]

You did catch the part about all things not only being made by Jesus, but also FOR Jesus?

Did not Jesus say the Father is the giver of every good gift?

What better gift than to give purpose and the power to create to His first creation.

[HisServant]

Actually Jehovahs Witnesses ARE true christians. Jehovahs witnesses worship the god that Jesus worships, that of course would be his father Jehovah. A christian is a follower of Christ and his teachings. Mainstream so called christians do not follow Christs' teachings.

Seems to me to be a total contradiction.
The Bible is Clear that we are to be followers of Jesus.
A christian is a follower of Christ. That is what we are called to be. Jesus told us to follow him. We are not told to be a follower of Jehovah or a witness of Jehovah. We are told to serve and worship Jehovah, but be a follower of Jesus since He is the ONLY WAY, TRUTH and LIFE. You can't even approach God without Jesus. So IMO Christianity is mainstream we follow christ. Everyone else do not follow His teachings.

[DRS]

I think you have captured the primary dilineation between your organization and Christianity: We worship Jesus and you really don't. You love him, and embrace his teachings. But, you do not worship him. So, in essence, your faith is something between Judaism and Christianity. In some ways similar to (not the same) as Islam--honoring Jesus, but loathe to worship him.

When the devil ask Jesus for an act of worship Jesus quotes Deuteronomy 6:. 13*Jehovah your God you should fear, and him you should serve, and by his name you should swear.

[DRS]

Seems to me to be a total contradiction.
The Bible is Clear that we are to be followers of Jesus.
A christian is a follower of Christ. That is what we are called to be. Jesus told us to follow him. We are not told to be a follower of Jehovah or a witness of Jehovah. We are told to serve and worship Jehovah, but be a follower of Jesus since He is the ONLY WAY, TRUTH and LIFE. You can't even approach God without Jesus. So IMO Christianity is mainstream we follow christ. Everyone else do not follow His teachings.

What are the teachings of Jesus?

[HisServant]

Did not Jesus say the Father is the giver of every good gift?

What better gift than to give purpose and the power to create to His first creation.

You still do not get it. The Logos always existed with the Father. Then He became flesh and dwelt among us. God with us, Immanuel. He is not a created being like you and I that at one time did not exist.

[DRS]

You still do not get it. The Logos always existed with the Father. Then He became flesh and dwelt among us. God with us, Immanuel. He is not a created being like you and I that at one time did not exist.

Peoverbs 8 proves that Jesus did not always exist, the fact that John 1 saysJesus was with God in the beginning shows there was a time he was not. If it had said before the beginning Jesus had been with Him then you may have a point.

[Fire Watch]

Peoverbs 8 proves that Jesus did not always exist, the fact that John 1 saysJesus was with God in the beginning shows there was a time he was not. If it had said before the beginning Jesus had been with Him then you may have a point.
John also says "and the word (Jesus) WAS God".

Jhn 1:1 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Jhn&chapter=1&verse=1&version=kjv#1)In the beginning was the Word (Jesus), and the Word (Jesus) was with God, and the Word (Jesus) was God.


John 8:58 (http://bibleresources.bible.com/passagesearchresults.php?passage1=John+8:58&version=9)
Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

I am...not I was...He exists outside of time..only one does that...God.

[DRS]

John also says "and the word (Jesus) WAS God".

Jhn 1:1 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Jhn&chapter=1&verse=1&version=kjv#1)In the beginning was the Word (Jesus), and the Word (Jesus) was with God, and the Word (Jesus) was God.


John 8:58 (http://bibleresources.bible.com/passagesearchresults.php?passage1=John+8:58&version=9)
Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

I am...not I was...He exists outside of time..only one does that...God.

Who is the God of John 1:1

God never identifies Himself as I am.

Elohim or God is applied to others does this make them The God also?

[Fire Watch]

Who is the God of John 1:1

God never identifies Himself as I am.

Yeah, gonna have to disagree with you yet again Daniel.

Exodus 3:14 (http://bibleresources.bible.com/passagesearchresults.php?passage1=Exodus+3:13-14&version=9)


13 And Moses said unto God, Behold, when I come unto the children of Israel, and shall say unto them, The God of your fathers hath sent me unto you; and they shall say to me, What is his name? what shall I say unto them?

14And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.

[DRS]

Yeah, gonna have to disagree with you yet again Daniel.

Exodus 3:14 (http://bibleresources.bible.com/passagesearchresults.php?passage1=Exodus+3:14&version=9)
And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.






Have you missed where it has been shown this is mistranslated?

[Fire Watch]

Have you missed where it has been shown this is mistranslated?
According to whom? The NWT and WTS?

[DRS]

According to whom? The NWT and WTS?

Jews

They have all said it is I will or I shall be be just as it is translated in Exodus 3:12

[Fire Watch]

Sorry, the Jews knew exactly what Jesus was saying when he said "before Abraham was, I am", and they tried to stone him for it.

[DRS]

Sorry, the Jews knew exactly what Jesus was saying when he said "before Abraham was, I am", and they tried to stone him for it.

Yeah for claiming prehuman existence, if being killed by the Jews made one God then there are some OT prophets you have to consider too.

Verse 54 Jesus clearly shows he is not the God of the Jews.

[Harmonious]

Sorry, the Jews knew exactly what Jesus was saying when he said "before Abraham was, I am", and they tried to stone him for it.
The Jews knew exactly what Jesus CLAIMED to be, and they tried to stone him for it.

[Harmonious]

I'll give you my reaction to that commentary: It makes total sense. If Jesus was not the Son of God, then He was a blasphemer. In John 8, the teachers of the law basically ask Jesus who he thinks he is. He responds that Abraham was glad to see his day. They respond that he's looking awfully young to be talking about Abraham. Jesus says, "Before Abraham was, I AM."

The crowd immediately pick up stones to kill him. They understand that He has claimed to be Jehovah God. They do not believe him, and so judge him a blasphemer. The reaction is to be expected.

(Of course, we Christians believed that the crowd got it wrong--that He was who he claimed to be.)Works for me.

However, even blasphemers normally get a trial.

[Fire Watch]

The Jews knew exactly what Jesus CLAIMED to be, and they tried to stone him for it.
Thank you.

[Harmonious]

But God's name is "I Will Be that I Will Be," Rick.

And Jesus isn't Him.

[HisServant]

Yeah for claiming prehuman existence, if being killed by the Jews made one God then there are some OT prophets you have to consider too.

Verse 54 Jesus clearly shows he is not the God of the Jews.

There is no Jewish law I know of that would stone someone for claiming to have a prehuman existence. This does not make sense.

Even Harmonious agrees I think with the fact that Jesus was making such a claim, even if he does not agree with the validity of the claim.

[Fire Watch]

But God's name is "I Will Be that I Will Be," Rick.
I understand that and agree. My point was that Jehova did identify himself as "I Am"..and Jesus applied that to himself, and the Jews knew exactly what he was claiming.

And Jesus isn't Him. And of course I disagree..lol.

[Haplo]

Yes, I very much believe in the Father the Son and The Holy Ghost!This is a minor thing I've wondered about. Why do some say 'holy spirit' and others say 'holy ghost'? They are often used interchangably but not always.

[Renegade56]

This is a minor thing I've wondered about. Why do some say 'holy spirit' and others say 'holy ghost'? They are often used interchangably but not always.

That has nothing to do with anything.

[Harmonious]

There is no Jewish law I know of that would stone someone for claiming to have a prehuman existence. This does not make sense.

Even Harmonious agrees I think with the fact that Jesus was making such a claim, even if he does not agree with the validity of the claim.
Yes - I believe that a person claiming to be God, or prehuman existance, would have been attributed to insanity rather than anything. Unless he was talking about the existance of souls, which have been around long before the actual people they inhabit.

But if people started believing a person was God, that is a problem. I don't know how many Christians understand how big a problem Jews would have if Jews would believe in the "divinity" of Jesus.

[HisServant]

Yes - I believe that a person claiming to be God, or prehuman existance, would have been attributed to insanity rather than anything. Unless he was talking about the existance of souls, which have been around long before the actual people they inhabit.

But if people started believing a person was God, that is a problem. I don't know how many Christians understand how big a problem Jews would have if Jews would believe in the "divinity" of Jesus.

Thanks.
Just curious, what if what Jesus claimed were true? What if He indeed was Emmanuel, God with Us. The I AM.?

[Haplo]

That has nothing to do with anything.Just curious

[Haplo]

Thanks.
Just curious, what if what Jesus claimed were true? What if He indeed was Emmanuel, God with Us. The I AM.?From my limited understanding of Judaism, I'd suggest it'd make God a liar. Or at the least several writers of the Old Testament would be liars.

[rhet 2]

Yes - I believe that a person claiming to be God, or prehuman existance, would have been attributed to insanity rather than anything. Unless he was talking about the existance of souls, which have been around long before the actual people they inhabit.

But if people started believing a person was God, that is a problem. I don't know how many Christians understand how big a problem Jews would have if Jews would believe in the "divinity" of Jesus.

But why should not the LORD who led Israel out of Egypt and placed David on the throne and swore that the throne of David should be everlasting not create for Himself a physical body so that He could personally sit on that throne and rule the earth directly and personally for the rest of eternity?

If that was His intention all along, who of us shall stop Him or say Him nay? What G-d chooses to do is surely what should be -- and can be-- done.

You know my heart: I truely yearn for the Temple -- and the throne of David -- to be restored. And, if the LORD takes to Himself the seed of David and personally restores both, then surely that is the greatest blessing of all, the direct and personal and immediate governance of the LORD of All Life, without human intermediaries getting between us and Him, so that we, too, like Moses, may look upon the Face of the LORD and live, kneel at His feet and shout hossanahs in His very presence, even, oh greatest delight of all, walk with Him in the evening in the Garden.

If He is omnipresent and omnipotent and omniscient -- and He surely is-- then He is not bound up and limited to His throne in heaven but able and willing to be both enthroned in the heavens and enthroned in the Ark of the Covenant and enthroned in Jerusalem at one and the same time. Without limits. Without restraints. Able to do all that He chooses to do.

This is NOT the same thing as carving a chunk of stone and calling that which is not eternal and not omnipotent and not omnipresent "god" -- it is seeking the very Face of the Eternal ONE, looking for Him, personally and immediately and directly, to rule over the universe He created, to be literally Emmanuel, God With Us.

There is only the ONE who is worthy of our love and our obedience and our worship -- the ONE who walked with Adam in the Garden, the ONE who blessed Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, the ONE who revealed Himself to Moses.

The greatest tragedy in the entire history of mankind is when Adam and Eve hid themselves from their Creator, unable to look upon Him face to Face out of shame. In this, they lost the greatest blessing of all -- the companionship of the Almighty. This is what has been restored through Christ: a literal, personal, one-on-one relationship with the ONE, and I yearn for the day when I, too, can literally, physically, walk into the throne room of the LORD and hear His voice with my own ears, look upon His face, and bow down in awe before Him. There is no joy, no peace, no happiness in this world -- nothing is worth having without that promise, that hope. The very definition of "life" and "death" is to be present with the LORD or eternally separated from His Being.

[DRS]

The Jews knew exactly what Jesus CLAIMED to be, and they tried to stone him for it.

Jesus calimed to be the son of God, never calimed to be God, in verse 54 of the verse quoted Jesus say his Father is their God.

[DRS]

Thanks.
Just curious, what if what Jesus claimed were true? What if He indeed was Emmanuel, God with Us. The I AM.?

Do you know what Micah means?

Do you know what Jonah means?

Noah?

Do you know what Jesus means?

A person's name did not reflect what they were.

[HisServant]

From my limited understanding of Judaism, I'd suggest it'd make God a liar. Or at the least several writers of the Old Testament would be liars.

Why would that be?

[DRS]

I understand that and agree. My point was that Jehova did identify himself as "I Am"..and Jesus applied that to himself, and the Jews knew exactly what he was claiming.

And of course I disagree..lol.

Jehovah never identifies Himself as I am.

Given the contect and the fact that Jesus just a couple of sentences earlier said His Father was their God, he was dicussing his prehuman existence, remember Abraham was being discussed.

[DRS]

Why would that be?

No man may see God's face and live.

[HisServant]

Do you know what Micah means?

Do you know what Jonah means?

Noah?

Do you know what Jesus means?

A person's name did not reflect what they were.

Actually at times it did. And at times they were named because of an event or because the parents went through something. In the case of Jesus He is the Savior of the World.

[DRS]

Actually at times it did. And at times they were named because of an event or because the parents went through something. In the case of Jesus He is the Savior of the World.

Jesus means Jehovah Is Salvation

Jesus Christ is not the first person in the bible called Jesus.

by Jonah means dove, do you believe he was a dove?

[HisServant]

Jehovah never identifies Himself as I am.

Given the contect and the fact that Jesus just a couple of sentences earlier said His Father was their God, he was dicussing his prehuman existence, remember Abraham was being discussed.

I will type slow perhaps this will help.
In the Beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God....... The Word became flesh and dwelt among us. This Logos who is God is now Jesus in the Flesh. Immanuel. God with us. So when Jesus says before Abraham was I AM. It is true. For before Abraham was the Logos who is God was with the Father who is God. In Case you missed it I will say it again. Jesus is the human Logos who always existed with God and is God therefore, before Abraham was 'I AM'. The endless Timeless one.

[DRS]

I will type slow perhaps this will help.
In the Beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God....... The Word became flesh and dwelt among us. This Logos who is God is now Jesus in the Flesh. Immanuel. God with us. So when Jesus says before Abraham was I AM. It is true. For before Abraham was the Logos who is God was with the Father who is God. In Case you missed it I will say it again. Jesus is the human Logos who always existed with God and is God therefore, before Abraham was 'I AM'. The endless Timeless one.


Jesus is the beginning, not before the beginning.


Jesus quite clearly he is not self existent, as I hear I judge, I came not to do my will but the will of Him that sent me. With regards to the day or the hour no one knows except the Father. All authoriy has been given me.

when you typed slowly did it help you?

[HisServant]

Jesus means Jehovah Is Salvation

Jesus Christ is not the first person in the bible called Jesus.

by Jonah means dove, do you believe he was a dove?

He is the only one called Immanuel. He is the only one born or a virgin. He is the only one of whom God said "This is my Son in Whom I am well pleased". He is the only one of whom it is said "behold the Lamb of God who takes away the sin or the world". He is the only one who died for you and me.

Got this from baby names on line: The name Jonah has two different images: an old-fashioned, deeply religious do-gooder, or a rugged, free-spirited outdoorsman--a fisherman or birdwatcher, perhaps.

[Haplo]

Why would that be?In the old testament god is shown as a single unique being. It is always "I" not "us" or "we". Nowhere in jewish scripture is god shown to be other then a spirit without a body. Then there's the messianic prophecies that indicate the messiah will be a fully mortal man with no god aspect other then being very moral.

[HisServant]

Jesus is the beginning, not before the beginning.


Jesus quite clearly he is not self existent, as I hear I judge, I came not to do my will but the will of Him that sent me. With regards to the day or the hour no one knows except the Father. All authoriy has been given me.

when you typed slowly did it help you?

Again as Jesus the Human He had a beginning and was not self existent we agree.

As Logos He always was with God. John does not say in the beginning God created the Logos. The way it reads is: IN the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and was God.

[DRS]

He is the only one called Immanuel. He is the only one born or a virgin. He is the only one of whom God said "This is my Son in Whom I am well pleased". He is the only one of whom it is said "behold the Lamb of God who takes away the sin or the world". He is the only one who died for you and me.

Got this from baby names on line: The name Jonah has two different images: an old-fashioned, deeply religious do-gooder, or a rugged, free-spirited outdoorsman--a fisherman or birdwatcher, perhaps.

Trying looking jonah in a biblical dictionary.

Many people are name Immanuel now.

So God this is my son, not this me.

The lamb of God not God the lamb.

[Haplo]

He is the only one called Immanuel. He is the only one born or a virgin. He is the only one of whom God said "This is my Son in Whom I am well pleased". He is the only one of whom it is said "behold the Lamb of God who takes away the sin or the world". He is the only one who died for you and me.

Got this from baby names on line: The name Jonah has two different images: an old-fashioned, deeply religious do-gooder, or a rugged, free-spirited outdoorsman--a fisherman or birdwatcher, perhaps.
Actualy Isreal collectively is called God's first born long before Jesus showed up. Then there's all the teachings that say human sacrifice is forbidden. Why would god in the flesh do that which he has commanded to be forbidden?

[HisServant]

In the old testament god is shown as a single unique being. It is always "I" not "us" or "we". Nowhere in jewish scripture is god shown to be other then a spirit without a body. Then there's the messianic prophecies that indicate the messiah will be a fully mortal man with no god aspect other then being very moral.

Thats interesting because Genesis says let us make man in our image.
Elohim is plural.
and Immanuel means God with us - which was the prophecy.

So is scripture wrong or man?