Should You Believe In The Trinity? [Archive] - Page 96

Angryamerican

July 19th, 2009, 2:39 pm

That capitalization of God is just convention. When you write God, you just mean "the Christian god." Capitalized God doesn't have any special meaning to anyone else in the world. It's like when Jews write g-d, G-d, or G-D. It's a convention they use to talk about their god. That's all.

The word God is used in every religion,but there is only one God.

That is why his name is so important.

Exo 3:15 And God said to Moses again, You shall say this to the sons of Israel, Jehovah, the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you. This is My name forever, and this is My memorial from generation to generation.

Exo 9:16 And for this reason I have made you stand, in order to cause you to see My power, and in order to declare My name in all the land.

Exo 20:24 You shall make an altar of earth for Me, and you shall sacrifice your burnt offerings and your peace offerings on it, your sheep and your cattle. In every place in which I cause My name to be remembered, I will come to you and will bless you.

Lev 19:12 And you shall not swear by My name to a falsehood; nor shall you pollute the name of your God; I am Jehovah.

Num 6:27 So they shall put My name on the sons of Israel, and I Myself will bless them.

2Sa 7:13 He shall build a house for My Name, and I shall establish the throne of his kingdom forever.

1Ki 5:5 And, behold, I am commanding a house to be built to the name of Jehovah my God, as Jehovah spoke to my father David, saying, Your son whom I will appoint in your place on your throne, he shall build the house for My name.

Psa 91:14 Because He has set His love on Me, therefore I will deliver Him; I will set Him on high because He has known My name.

Isa 29:23 But when he sees his children in his midst, the work of My hands, they shall sanctify My name. They shall sanctify the Holy One of Jacob, and shall fear the God of Israel.

Isa 42:8 I am Jehovah; that is My name; and I will not give My glory to another, nor My praise to engraved images.

REALLY PAY ATTENTION TO THIS ONE!!

Isa 52:5 So then what is to Me here, declares Jehovah? For My people is taken for nothing; those ruling howl, declares Jehovah. And My name is continually despised, every day

Psa 83:18 And let them know Your name is Jehovah, that You alone are the Most High over all the earth.

Are you seeing how important Gods name is not the title Lord or God ?

the oldtimer

July 19th, 2009, 2:54 pm

Ah.

So, in essence, you have two different translations, even though they are primarily the same thing (well... as far as the Torah part goes).
I have never sat down and compared them, so I really can't answer that.

ralittlefield

July 19th, 2009, 5:02 pm

How do you define "one worthy of worship"? What makes a being worthy of worship?

For me, it is the one who created me.

Harmonious

July 19th, 2009, 7:23 pm

I have never sat down and compared them, so I really can't answer that.
Well... You have said that the Torah said one thing, but the Tanach said something else. Therefore, since the the books are the same (except that the Tanach has more of them) and they said different things, it occurs to me that they were different translations.

Could you tell me which translations they are?

DispensationalJim

July 19th, 2009, 7:29 pm

But you still have a problem though and i notice you left out the third person.

But Jesus who you claim to be God said this.

Joh 5:37 And the Father, the One sending Me, has Himself borne witness concerning Me. You have neither heard His voice at any time, nor have you seen His form.

Do you disagree with Jesus?

I concentrated on the Third Person some weeks ago, and basically got ignored. Shall I repost all those quotes from the book entitled "The Trinity" about the Holy Spirit being God?

Once again, AA, you are using a passage (John 5:37) where Jesus is speaking as a man who was the Creator of the worlds but then became a man in order to die for our sins.

To me, it is quite simple:
NO ONE HAS SEEN GOD THE FATHER but MANY HAVE SEEN GOD THE SON (JESUS).

DRS

July 19th, 2009, 7:31 pm

So then there were two gods then in your view

Angryamerican

July 19th, 2009, 7:39 pm

I concentrated on the Third Person some weeks ago, and basically got ignored. Shall I repost all those quotes from the book entitled "The Trinity" about the Holy Spirit being God?

Once again, AA, you are using a passage (John 5:37) where Jesus is speaking as a man who was the Creator of the worlds but then became a man in order to die for our sins.

To me, it is quite simple:
NO ONE HAS SEEN GOD THE FATHER but MANY HAVE SEEN GOD THE SON (JESUS).

Please forgive me for being blunt Dj ,but it sounds like a contradiction.

A simple question i have for you that i have asked before,can God stop being God ?

Or is he God no matter the form ?

Dj one more,can God die ?

DispensationalJim

July 19th, 2009, 8:08 pm

Okay...I am looking at the passage

Isaiah 44:6 "Thus says the LORD, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, the LORD of hosts: 'I am the first and I am the last, And there is no God besides Me.

:think:

Where exactly does it say that?

I see nothing about a son. I see G-D clearly say that there is no one else but him.

May I break that verse down a bit?

First we have "the LORD, the King of Israel."

Then, we have "AND his redeemer, the LORD of hosts."

It looks to me like they are speaking together (that is, in unison) as they both say:
'I am the first and I am the last, And there is no God besides Me.

=================================

There are several other verses which are similarly showing two different persons yet one God:
• Psa. 89:18 For the LORD is OUR DEFENCE; AND THE HOLY ONE OF ISRAEL IS our king.
• Is. 41:20 ... that the hand of the LORD hath done this, and the Holy One of Israel hath created it.
• Is. 49:7 Thus saith the LORD, the Redeemer of Israel, and his Holy One, to him whom man despiseth, to him whom the nation abhorreth ... because of the LORD that is faithful, and the Holy One of Israel, and he shall choose thee.
• Is. 55:5 ... because of the LORD thy God, and for the Holy One of Israel; for he hath glorified thee.
• Is. 60:9 ... , unto the name of the LORD thy God, and to the Holy One of Israel, because he hath glorified thee.
• Hab. 3:3 God came from Teman, and the Holy One from mount Paran. Selah. His glory covered the heavens, and the earth was full of his praise.

===============================

And who is the Holy One?
• Is. 30:15 For thus saith the Lord GOD, the Holy One of Israel;
• Is. 43:3 For I am the LORD thy God, the Holy One of Israel, thy Saviour:
• Is. 43:14 Thus saith the LORD, your redeemer, the Holy One of Israel;
• Is. 47:4 As for our redeemer, the LORD of hosts is his name, the Holy One of Israel.
• Is. 48:17 Thus saith the LORD, thy Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel; I am the LORD thy God
• Ezek. 39:7 ...and the heathen shall know that I am the LORD, the Holy One in Israel.

===============================

There are also many, many verses which show that Jesus Christ is THE Saviour and THE Redeemer and THE Holy One, so IMO that points us to HIm as God the Son.

Maybe I'm just muddying the waters for you, Mike, but I hope not. :)

DispensationalJim

July 19th, 2009, 8:34 pm

Please forgive me for being blunt Dj ,but it sounds like a contradiction.

A simple question i have for you that i have asked before,can God stop being God ?

Or is he God no matter the form ?

Dj one more,can God die ?

IMO, AA, that is like asking if God can make a rock so heavy He cannot lift it.

My personal belief is that God can manifest HIMSELF in many forms, and I believe that Phil. 2 is quite clear:
• Phil. 2:5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: 6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: 7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: 8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

============================

And then, here are some verses to ponder:
• Ex. 15:3 The LORD is A MAN OF WAR: THE LORD is his name.
• Ex. 33:11 And the LORD spake unto Moses face to face, as a man speaketh unto his friend.
• Is. 42:13 The LORD shall go forth as a mighty man, he shall stir up jealousy like a man of war: he shall cry, yea, roar; he shall prevail against his enemies.
• Psa. 2:7 I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee. 8 Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession. ... 11 Serve the LORD with fear, and rejoice with trembling. 12 Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish from the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all they that put their trust in him.

the oldtimer

July 20th, 2009, 12:14 am

Well... You have said that the Torah said one thing, but the Tanach said something else. Therefore, since the the books are the same (except that the Tanach has more of them) and they said different things, it occurs to me that they were different translations.

Could you tell me which translations they are?
If you tell me what the verses were I will look them up. You have got me wondering now!
The Torah, was published by the Jewish publication society of America. It says according to the Masoretic text.
The Tanahk was by the, Hebrew publishing Company, New York 1973
translated by Isaac Leeser

Harmonious

July 20th, 2009, 1:44 am

If you tell me what the verses were I will look them up. You have got me wondering now!
The Torah, was published by the Jewish publication society of America. It says according to the Masoretic text.
The Tanahk was by the, Hebrew publishing Company, New York 1973
translated by Isaac Leeser
No, no. We're good. I just wanted to know the translations. Now I know.

Thanks!

Finality

July 20th, 2009, 2:52 am

Correct to a point.

Do you consider Angels having the powers and being as Holy as they are after all they stand before God,to be godlike ?
I can only answer from a mythological point of view. If you are talking about the kind of angels Christians believe in, then yes I think they are godlike. If you are talking about the kinds of angels Jews believe in, then no I think they are not godlike.

I have no personal belief in angels, so I cannot answer your question directly. Could there be some beings like Christian angels or Jewish angels with godlike powers? I suppose. I don't know. I have no reason to believe they exist. If they did, then I would probably not think they were godlike, but rather just very powerful.

Finality

July 20th, 2009, 3:03 am

The word God is used in every religion,but there is only one God.

That is why his name is so important.
You see, we are not so far off. You believe that nobody else's god exists, and I believe that nobody else's god exists and that your god does not exist.

However, that leads to a different result, where the name of any given god is not so important, except when discussing specific theologies. Even then, the name isn't important as except as the means for effective discourse.
...
REALLY PAY ATTENTION TO THIS ONE!!

Isa 52:5 So then what is to Me here, declares Jehovah? For My people is taken for nothing; those ruling howl, declares Jehovah. And My name is continually despised, every day
...
What's so special about that one? That's talking about the Jewish god, not the Christian god. Are all of those Me's and My's capitalized in Hebrew? My Isaiah says this:
"5 But now, what am I to do here? says the LORD. My people have been taken away without redress; their rulers make a boast of it, says the LORD; all the day my name is constantly reviled.
"6 Therefore on that day my people shall know my renown, that it is I who have foretold it. Here I am!"
LORD is all-caps, but the me's and my's are not.
Are you seeing how important Gods name is not the title Lord or God ?
No. I'm afraid not. When you write "God," that has no more meaning to me than god. It would be more meaningful to me if you wrote, "my god," or the "Christian god," but I'm not here to tell you how to write. I'm content just giving another perspective.

Angryamerican

July 20th, 2009, 10:54 am

You see, we are not so far off. You believe that nobody else's god exists, and I believe that nobody else's god exists and that your god does not exist.

However, that leads to a different result, where the name of any given god is not so important, except when discussing specific theologies. Even then, the name isn't important as except as the means for effective discourse.

What's so special about that one? That's talking about the Jewish god, not the Christian god. Are all of those Me's and My's capitalized in Hebrew? My Isaiah says this:
"5 But now, what am I to do here? says the LORD. My people have been taken away without redress; their rulers make a boast of it, says the LORD; all the day my name is constantly reviled.
"6 Therefore on that day my people shall know my renown, that it is I who have foretold it. Here I am!"
LORD is all-caps, but the me's and my's are not.

No. I'm afraid not. When you write "God," that has no more meaning to me than god. It would be more meaningful to me if you wrote, "my god," or the "Christian god," but I'm not here to tell you how to write. I'm content just giving another perspective.

How are you declaring the name of God if you use just a title ?

The word God can be used in any religion,but when the name of the God that you believe in is used there is no doubt who you believe in and who you are trying to bring people to.

Not sure who or what you believe in,but for me there is no Christian God,i worship the God of the ot or the tanach.

Look, bottom line, jews believe as they do about Angels not having free will and using Gods name because of philosophy that has been handed down through tradition.

The jewish people can't show these two views are supported by scripture.

Angryamerican

July 20th, 2009, 10:57 am

I can only answer from a mythological point of view. If you are talking about the kind of angels Christians believe in, then yes I think they are godlike. If you are talking about the kinds of angels Jews believe in, then no I think they are not godlike.

I have no personal belief in angels, so I cannot answer your question directly. Could there be some beings like Christian angels or Jewish angels with godlike powers? I suppose. I don't know. I have no reason to believe they exist. If they did, then I would probably not think they were godlike, but rather just very powerful.

Being powerful and possessing supernatural powers is that not a trait of God ?

CMike11

July 20th, 2009, 11:11 am

"Originally Posted by CMike11
Okay...I am looking at the passage

Isaiah 44:6 "Thus says the LORD, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, the LORD of hosts: 'I am the first and I am the last, And there is no God besides Me.

Where exactly does it say that?"

I see nothing about a son. I see G-D clearly say that there is no one else but him. May I break that verse down a bit?

First we have "the LORD, the King of Israel."

Then, we have "AND his redeemer, the LORD of hosts."

It looks to me like they are speaking together (that is, in unison) as they both say:
'I am the first and I am the last, And there is no God besides Me.

I really dont' want to get into a semantics disucssion, but...

"Thus says the LORD, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, the LORD of hosts:

The passage says "Thus says the Lord". Then it says who the Lord is. The Lord is the King of Israel, and his Redeemer. He is the Lord of hosts. These are descriptions of the Lord.

'I am the first and I am the last, And there is no God besides Me. "

Pretty clear. It doesn't say *we* it says "I". "I" is singular.

The other versus do not show more than one being either. They are descriptions and attributes of one G-D. I think "I am the first and I am the last, And there is no G-D besides me" makes it crystal clear.

===============================

There are also many, many verses which show that Jesus Christ is THE Saviour and THE Redeemer and THE Holy One, so IMO that points us to HIm as God the Son.

There is? Could you please show from anywhere in the Torah, where jesus is clearly mentioned? G-D went into explicit detail in thousands of thousands of words and passages telling jews what jews need to know. Yet, not once, is jesus, the whole son concept, or anything else christian is ever mentioned. Why is that?

Could it be because jesus has absolutely nothing to do with judaism? That is the actual answer.

In fact, just the opposite, G-D told the jews in numerous passages that there is only him. Anything else is considered idol worship and is a big major el grande no no.

Maybe I'm just muddying the waters for you, Mike, but I hope not. :)

You are in no way muddying the waters. You are just trying to show something that can't be shown except by using extreme creativity.

Angryamerican

July 20th, 2009, 11:26 am

"Originally Posted by CMike11
Okay...I am looking at the passage

Isaiah 44:6 "Thus says the LORD, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, the LORD of hosts: 'I am the first and I am the last, And there is no God besides Me.

Where exactly does it say that?"

I see nothing about a son. I see G-D clearly say that there is no one else but him.

I really dont' want to get into a semantics disucssion, but...

"Thus says the LORD, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, the LORD of hosts:

The passage says "Thus says the Lord". Then it says who the Lord is. The Lord is the King of Israel, and his Redeemer. He is the Lord of hosts. These are descriptions of the Lord.

'I am the first and I am the last, And there is no God besides Me. "

Pretty clear. It doesn't say *we* it says "I". "I" is singular.

The other versus do not show more than one being either. They are descriptions and attributes of one G-D. I think "I am the first and I am the last, And there is no G-D besides me" makes it crystal clear.

There is? Could you please show from anywhere in the Torah, where jesus is clearly mentioned? G-D went into explicit detail in thousands of thousands of words and passages telling jews what jews need to know. Yet, not once, is jesus, the whole son concept, or anything else christian is ever mentioned. Why is that?

Could it be because jesus has absolutely nothing to do with judaism? That is the actual answer.

In fact, just the opposite, G-D told the jews in numerous passages that there is only him. Anything else is considered idol worship and is a big major el grande no no.

You are in no way muddying the waters. You are just trying to show something that can't be shown except by using extreme creativity.

Any god worshiped other then the Almighty would be worshiping a false god.

Finality

July 20th, 2009, 4:52 pm

How are you declaring the name of God if you use just a title ?

The word God can be used in any religion,but when the name of the God that you believe in is used there is no doubt who you believe in and who you are trying to bring people to.

Not sure who or what you believe in,but for me there is no Christian God,i worship the God of the ot or the tanach.

Look, bottom line, jews believe as they do about Angels not having free will and using Gods name because of philosophy that has been handed down through tradition.

The jewish people can't show these two views are supported by scripture.
Jews do not practice sola scriptura, so why would they need to support every belief from their scripture alone?

The Jews around here will tend to say, and I tend to agree with them, that you can only do one of these two mutually exclusive things:

1) Worship the god of the Tanach
OR
2) Worship Jesus as a god

There's nothing wrong with Christians not worshiping the god of Israel. Why would anyone think that followers of one religion should worship the god of another religion?

Look, it's easy to be objective about this. Do Christians worship in the practice and tradition of the Tanach? If they do not, then they do not worship the god of the Tanach. They worship a different god with different requirements.

Finality

July 20th, 2009, 4:59 pm

Being powerful and possessing supernatural powers is that not a trait of God ?
The supernatural does not exist. If it exists, then it is natural, by definition.

These powers you imagine (or that I imagine you imagine) are no different than the powers of the gods of any other religion or culture, at least in the aggregate. Particulars may vary. How do I differentiate?

Being powerful is not a trait limited to gods, unless you perhaps have a non-standard meaning. Human rulers are powerful. Explosives are powerful. Some animals are powerful in their way. The forces of nature are powerful. These are not traits of god.

CMike11

July 20th, 2009, 5:35 pm

Any god worshiped other then the Almighty would be worshiping a false god.

Yes?

CMike11

July 20th, 2009, 5:36 pm

Jews do not practice sola scriptura, so why would they need to support every belief from their scripture alone?

The Jews around here will tend to say, and I tend to agree with them, that you can only do one of these two mutually exclusive things:

1) Worship the god of the Tanach
OR
2) Worship Jesus as a god

There's nothing wrong with Christians not worshiping the god of Israel. Why would anyone think that followers of one religion should worship the god of another religion?

Look, it's easy to be objective about this. Do Christians worship in the practice and tradition of the Tanach? If they do not, then they do not worship the god of the Tanach. They worship a different god with different requirements.

I agree with that.

DispensationalJim

July 21st, 2009, 9:38 am

I really dont' want to get into a semantics disucssion, but...

"Thus says the LORD, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, the LORD of hosts:

The passage says "Thus says the Lord". Then it says who the Lord is. The Lord is the King of Israel, and his Redeemer. He is the Lord of hosts. These are descriptions of the Lord.

'I am the first and I am the last, And there is no God besides Me. "

Pretty clear. It doesn't say *we* it says "I". "I" is singular.

The other versus do not show more than one being either. They are descriptions and attributes of one G-D. I think "I am the first and I am the last, And there is no G-D besides me" makes it crystal clear.

Who is "his Redeemer"? My New Testament tells me that Jesus Christ is THE Redeemer. And these Old Testament verses IMO are speaking of the coming of Christ:
• Job 19:25 For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth:
• Is. 59:20 And the Redeemer shall come to Zion, and unto them that turn from transgression in Jacob, saith the LORD.

As you surely know, Mike, we believe in ONE GOD, yet we believe He exists in three persons, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit just as an egg exists in three parts but is still just one egg.

I will concede that Is. 44:8 uses "I am the last" but that is the ONLY place it is found:
• Is. 44:6 Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.

But in The Revelation, it says:
• Rev. 1:11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last:
• Rev. 1:17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:
• Rev. 2:8 And unto the angel of the church in Smyrna write; These things saith the first and the last, which was dead, and is alive;
• Rev. 22:13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.

However, since that phrase ("I am the first and I am the last") is used only once in the entire Bible, that IMO makes it an exception. The phrase "I am the first and the last" is used 4 times as shown above and applies to Jesus Christ.

=================================

But I still say these OT verses show two distinct and separate persons:
• Psa. 89:18 For the LORD is OUR DEFENCE; AND THE HOLY ONE OF ISRAEL IS our king.
• Is. 41:20 ... that the hand of the LORD hath done this, and the Holy One of Israel hath created it.
• Is. 49:7 Thus saith the LORD, the Redeemer of Israel, and his Holy One, to him whom man despiseth, to him whom the nation abhorreth ... because of the LORD that is faithful, and the Holy One of Israel, and he shall choose thee.
• Is. 55:5 ... because of the LORD thy God, and for the Holy One of Israel; for he hath glorified thee.
• Is. 60:9 ... , unto the name of the LORD thy God, and to the Holy One of Israel, because he hath glorified thee.
• Hab. 3:3 God came from Teman, and the Holy One from mount Paran. Selah. His glory covered the heavens, and the earth was full of his praise.

Yes, semantics is very important, so if you can show why the "and" is there and yet means one person, maybe you can "persuade" me to go along with your view on that.

There is? Could you please show from anywhere in the Torah, where jesus is clearly mentioned? G-D went into explicit detail in thousands of thousands of words and passages telling jews what jews need to know. Yet, not once, is jesus, the whole son concept, or anything else christian is ever mentioned. Why is that?

I know we have been down this road several times, but I'll gladly quote a few of the more popular verses again:
• Gen. 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.
• 1Chr. 17:13 I will be his father, and he shall be my son: and I will not take my mercy away from him, as I took it from him that was before thee: 14 But I will settle him in mine house and in my kingdom for ever: and his throne shall be established for evermore.
• Psa. 8:6 Thou madest him to have dominion over the works of thy hands; thou hast put all things under his feet:
• Psa. 110:1 The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.
• Is. 7:14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.
• Is. 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

If needed, I will supply the New Testament fulfillment verses, also.

And here are a few verses I gave to AA:
• Ex. 15:3 The LORD is A MAN OF WAR: THE LORD is his name.
• Ex. 33:11 And the LORD spake unto Moses face to face, as a man speaketh unto his friend.
• Is. 42:13 The LORD shall go forth as a mighty man, he shall stir up jealousy like a man of war: he shall cry, yea, roar; he shall prevail against his enemies.
• Psa. 2:7 I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee. 8 Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession. ... 11 Serve the LORD with fear, and rejoice with trembling. 12 Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish from the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all they that put their trust in him.

Oh, and I noticed this verse about His Spirit, too:
• Is. 48:16 Come ye near unto me, hear ye this; I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, there am I: and now the Lord GOD, and his Spirit, hath sent me.

Could it be because jesus has absolutely nothing to do with judaism? That is the actual answer.

In fact, just the opposite, G-D told the jews in numerous passages that there is only him. Anything else is considered idol worship and is a big major el grande no no.

In the New Testament, we find the words "mystery" and "secret" used often to IMO explain why some things were not as clear in the Old Testament as they became in the New. But even in the OT, the word "secret" is used often:

• Job 15:8 Hast thou heard the secret of God? and dost thou restrain wisdom to thyself?
• Job 29:4 As I was in the days of my youth, when the secret of God was upon my tabernacle;
• Psa. 25:14 The secret of the LORD is with them that fear him; and he will shew them his covenant.
• Psa. 27:5 For in the time of trouble he shall hide me in his pavilion: in the secret of his tabernacle shall he hide me; he shall set me up upon a rock.
• Psa. 91:1 He that dwelleth in the secret place of the most High shall abide under the shadow of the Almighty.
• Dan. 2:22 He revealeth the deep and secret things: he knoweth what IS in the darkness, and the light dwelleth with him

You are in no way muddying the waters. You are just trying to show something that can't be shown except by using extreme creativity.

Aw shucks, Mike, I'm not THAT creative to have written the New Testament. :)

DRS

July 21st, 2009, 9:44 am

No Jim just confuses those whom Jehovah uses for salvation who can rightly be called saviours because of their actions with the fact that there is no salvation possible without Jehovah.

Just as the Jews decided to take the copper serpent that Jehovah used to save people from death and turn it into a object of worship so to it has happened with Jesus.

DispensationalJim

July 21st, 2009, 9:47 am

...
Not sure who or what you believe in,but for me there is no Christian God,i worship the God of the ot or the tanach.

Look, bottom line, jews believe as they do about Angels not having free will and using Gods name because of philosophy that has been handed down through tradition.

The jewish people can't show these two views are supported by scripture.

Ahhhh, AA, it would appear to me that you have now finally clarified the reason you cannot accept the reasoning behind the Trinity. You don't believe in the the New Testament, do you? Thus, I am assuming that you don't believe in Christ as THE Savior, either.

And yet you also reject the Jewish understanding of the Old Testament, don't you?

Is that a fair assessment, AA?

So what DO you believe? I'm really curious... :)

CMike11

July 21st, 2009, 10:13 am

Who is "his Redeemer"? My New Testament tells me that Jesus Christ is THE Redeemer. And these Old Testament verses IMO are speaking of the coming of Christ:
• Job 19:25 For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth:
• Is. 59:20 And the Redeemer shall come to Zion, and unto them that turn from transgression in Jacob, saith the LORD.

As you surely know, Mike, we believe in ONE GOD, yet we believe He exists in three persons, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit just as an egg exists in three parts but is still just one egg.

I will concede that Is. 44:8 uses "I am the last" but that is the ONLY place it is found:
• Is. 44:6 Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.

But in The Revelation, it says:
• Rev. 1:11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last:
• Rev. 1:17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:
• Rev. 2:8 And unto the angel of the church in Smyrna write; These things saith the first and the last, which was dead, and is alive;
• Rev. 22:13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.

However, since that phrase ("I am the first and I am the last") is used only once in the entire Bible, that IMO makes it an exception. The phrase "I am the first and the last" is used 4 times as shown above and applies to Jesus Christ.

=================================

But I still say these OT verses show two distinct and separate persons:
• Psa. 89:18 For the LORD is OUR DEFENCE; AND THE HOLY ONE OF ISRAEL IS our king.
• Is. 41:20 ... that the hand of the LORD hath done this, and the Holy One of Israel hath created it.
• Is. 49:7 Thus saith the LORD, the Redeemer of Israel, and his Holy One, to him whom man despiseth, to him whom the nation abhorreth ... because of the LORD that is faithful, and the Holy One of Israel, and he shall choose thee.
• Is. 55:5 ... because of the LORD thy God, and for the Holy One of Israel; for he hath glorified thee.
• Is. 60:9 ... , unto the name of the LORD thy God, and to the Holy One of Israel, because he hath glorified thee.
• Hab. 3:3 God came from Teman, and the Holy One from mount Paran. Selah. His glory covered the heavens, and the earth was full of his praise.

Yes, semantics is very important, so if you can show why the "and" is there and yet means one person, maybe you can "persuade" me to go along with your view on that.

I know we have been down this road several times, but I'll gladly quote a few of the more popular verses again:
• Gen. 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.
• 1Chr. 17:13 I will be his father, and he shall be my son: and I will not take my mercy away from him, as I took it from him that was before thee: 14 But I will settle him in mine house and in my kingdom for ever: and his throne shall be established for evermore.
• Psa. 8:6 Thou madest him to have dominion over the works of thy hands; thou hast put all things under his feet:
• Psa. 110:1 The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.
• Is. 7:14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.
• Is. 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

If needed, I will supply the New Testament fulfillment verses, also.

And here are a few verses I gave to AA:
• Ex. 15:3 The LORD is A MAN OF WAR: THE LORD is his name.
• Ex. 33:11 And the LORD spake unto Moses face to face, as a man speaketh unto his friend.
• Is. 42:13 The LORD shall go forth as a mighty man, he shall stir up jealousy like a man of war: he shall cry, yea, roar; he shall prevail against his enemies.
• Psa. 2:7 I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee. 8 Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession. ... 11 Serve the LORD with fear, and rejoice with trembling. 12 Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish from the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all they that put their trust in him.

Oh, and I noticed this verse about His Spirit, too:
• Is. 48:16 Come ye near unto me, hear ye this; I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, there am I: and now the Lord GOD, and his Spirit, hath sent me.

In the New Testament, we find the words "mystery" and "secret" used often to IMO explain why some things were not as clear in the Old Testament as they became in the New. But even in the OT, the word "secret" is used often:

• Job 15:8 Hast thou heard the secret of God? and dost thou restrain wisdom to thyself?
• Job 29:4 As I was in the days of my youth, when the secret of God was upon my tabernacle;
• Psa. 25:14 The secret of the LORD is with them that fear him; and he will shew them his covenant.
• Psa. 27:5 For in the time of trouble he shall hide me in his pavilion: in the secret of his tabernacle shall he hide me; he shall set me up upon a rock.
• Psa. 91:1 He that dwelleth in the secret place of the most High shall abide under the shadow of the Almighty.
• Dan. 2:22 He revealeth the deep and secret things: he knoweth what IS in the darkness, and the light dwelleth with him

Aw shucks, Mike, I'm not THAT creative to have written the New Testament. :)

Yeah...they are passages in the Torah. Now, once again, could you please show one passage in the Torah that clearly mentions your jesus theory or christianity?

Just one please? Thank you.

As far as your egg analogy. One part of egg doesn't say it prays to another part of the egg. One part of the egg doesn't say you have to pray through my part to get to this part.

Jesus is clearly a separate individual.

The Redeemer in the pasage is clearly G-D. He is the one and only Redeemer. As he says he is the first and he is the last, and there is no other.

Angryamerican

July 21st, 2009, 10:57 am

Ahhhh, AA, it would appear to me that you have now finally clarified the reason you cannot accept the reasoning behind the Trinity. You don't believe in the the New Testament, do you? Thus, I am assuming that you don't believe in Christ as THE Savior, either.

And yet you also reject the Jewish understanding of the Old Testament, don't you?

Is that a fair assessment, AA?

So what DO you believe? I'm really curious... :)

I have made my views perfectly clear.

I was close to accepting judaism,until i looked more in to what they believed,but i could not get around the idea that we were not to use Gods name,or that no one really knows Gods name.

Their view on angels i feel is wrong just my opinion.

It caused me to study many hours on who Jesus really was ,and i have no doubts now who Jesus was before coming to the earth.

At this point i attend a non denominational church with the family,but am looking in to other churches that are close to my beliefs.

Angryamerican

July 21st, 2009, 10:59 am

Yeah...they are passages in the Torah. Now, once again, could you please show one passage in the Torah that clearly mentions your jesus theory or christianity?

Just one please? Thank you.

As far as your egg analogy. One part of egg doesn't say it prays to another part of the egg. One part of the egg doesn't say you have to pray through my part to get to this part.

Jesus is clearly a separate individual.

The Redeemer in the pasage is clearly G-D. He is the one and only Redeemer. As he is says he is the first and he is the last, and there is no other.

+1 see mike we can agree ;)

DispensationalJim

July 21st, 2009, 4:49 pm

I have made my views perfectly clear.

I was close to accepting judaism,until i looked more in to what they believed,but i could not get around the idea that we were not to use Gods name,or that no one really knows Gods name.

Their view on angels i feel is wrong just my opinion.

It caused me to study many hours on who Jesus really was ,and i have no doubts now who Jesus was before coming to the earth.

At this point i attend a non denominational church with the family,but am looking in to other churches that are close to my beliefs.

Yes, I recall that you accepted the JW theory that Jesus was the Archangel Michael, but I thought that was rather well disproven.

But, the key IMO is, "Do you believe that Jesus Christ died for your sins?

DispensationalJim

July 21st, 2009, 4:54 pm

Yeah...they are passages in the Torah. Now, once again, could you please show one passage in the Torah that clearly mentions your jesus theory or christianity?

Just one please? Thank you.

As far as your egg analogy. One part of egg doesn't say it prays to another part of the egg. One part of the egg doesn't say you have to pray through my part to get to this part.

Jesus is clearly a separate individual.

The Redeemer in the pasage is clearly G-D. He is the one and only Redeemer. As he is says he is the first and he is the last, and there is no other.

Since you obviously reject the New Testament, Mike, which quotes dozens and dozens of Old Testament verses and gives the fuifillment as accomplished by Christ Himself, there is no way that we can ever come to any kind of agreement on the topic of who Christ is, so I believe we must ultimately agree to disagree agreeably.

Koushi Shinigami

July 21st, 2009, 5:25 pm

Since you obviously reject the New Testament, Mike, which quotes dozens and dozens of Old Testament verses and gives the fuifillment as accomplished by Christ Himself, there is no way that we can ever come to any kind of agreement on the topic of who Christ is, so I believe we must ultimately agree to disagree agreeably.

So the answer to CMike's question is "No.".

CMike11

July 21st, 2009, 6:55 pm

So the answer to CMike's question is "No.".

It seems so.

Koushi Shinigami

July 21st, 2009, 6:58 pm

It seems so.

Ayup. You would think he'd want to save all that typing.... :whistle:

CMike11

July 21st, 2009, 7:02 pm

Ayup. You would think he'd want to save all that typing.... :whistle:

:)) That was funny.

DispensationalJim

July 21st, 2009, 8:09 pm

Yeah...they are passages in the Torah. Now, once again, could you please show one passage in the Torah that clearly mentions your jesus theory or christianity?

Just one please? Thank you.

I already supplied several verses which in the opinion of billions of believers clearly speak of the Messiah (or Christ), but again, since you do not accept the New Testament, you will probably never accept the prophetical verses I gave as being about Jesus.

I do concede that the name of "Jesus" is apparently not found in the English translations of the Old Testament, which IMO does not mean that He is not actually there, but I showed in the previously posted verses that the "Son" IS mentioned and a review of this complete thread would show many other verses -- which I did not post -- that believers do consider to be very clear references to Him -- but are naturally dismissed by Jewish theologians.

In fact, my "Prophecy Study Bible" (Tim LaHaye) lists some 300 OT verses which are considered prophetical of the "first coming" of the Christ along with their NT fulfillments. Then there are another 300+ OT verses which are counted as prophetical of the "second coming" of the Christ, which I think most fundamentalists believe will come to pass in the future. Many of those verses are I understand accepted by Jewish believers as being about the Messiah, and since many feel they have not yet been fulfilled, those of the Jewish faith reject the notion of Jesus being the Messiah.

So once more I say, it would seem that we are at a stale-mate.

BTW, I have met many "ex-Jews" who are now avid believers in Christ, but I also recall that some of them were actually declared "dead" by their families, so I can imagine that there might be a number of "closet" believers among the Jewish familes, too.

DispensationalJim

July 21st, 2009, 8:14 pm

Ayup. You would think he'd want to save all that typing.... :whistle:

I count it a privilege in this wonderful country to still have the freedom to express my strongly held views about the Bible and my Saviour on this forum, and while I am a terrible typist, I am "retired" and do not mind taking some of my time to share those views, which a few folks on here have actually found to be helpful.

So its worth it in my book. :)

CMike11

July 21st, 2009, 8:38 pm

Koushi Shinigami

July 21st, 2009, 9:06 pm

I count it a privilege in this wonderful country to still have the freedom to express my strongly held views about the Bible and my Saviour on this forum, and while I am a terrible typist, I am "retired" and do not mind taking some of my time to share those views,

So as long as you get to hit your talking points, you're happy.

which a few folks on here have actually found to be helpful.

Not me.

DRS

July 21st, 2009, 9:52 pm

Koushi Shinigami

July 21st, 2009, 9:57 pm

Jesus fulfilled many prophecies, including time table lineage and works.

Were you able to get out of Egypt by listening to someone other than Moses?
Could you get to the promised land and take possesion of it by following anyone else than Moses and than Joshua.

As for aspects of Christianity yes they are prophecied about, the new covenant, the fact the covenant was only going to be open to the Jews for a period of time, and the work Christians would do.

We christians like to say that a lot. Don't we? :rolleyes:

DRS

July 21st, 2009, 10:08 pm

We can because it is true, it is not like we had anything to do with it.

DispensationalJim

July 21st, 2009, 10:17 pm

So as long as you get to hit your talking points, you're happy.

Not me.

Well, Koushi, I'm not surprised that you don't think I'm helpful. You seem to have that kind of attitude...

I have spent almost every waking hour of my life trying to be helpful to others, but then some folks just don't think they ever need any help, especially when the help might come from one of those silly Bible believers.

So I wish you all the best, Koushi...

DispensationalJim

July 21st, 2009, 11:03 pm

Oh, the messiah is definetly in the Torah.

Do you have one passage that clearly points to jesus or christianity.

Do you have one passage that shows that you are supposed to pray to the messiah?

Do you have one passage that shows that you can only get to G-D via the mesisah?

Do you have any passage that clearly supports christianity from the Torah?

And yes it is most sad that some jews have abandoned their G-D known to the jews...that is very sad.

Are the answers to my questions no?

Here is a favorite passage to show what the "Messiah" did for us:
Is. 53:1 Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed?
Is. 53:2 For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him.
Is. 53:3 He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.
Is. 53:4 ¶ Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.
Is. 53:5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.
Is. 53:6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
Is. 53:7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.
Is. 53:8 He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.
Is. 53:9 And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.
Is. 53:10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.
Is. 53:11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.
Is. 53:12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

============================

There are obviously many commentaries on this passage.

But here is one entitled "Isaiah 53:How Do the Rabbis Interpret This?"
http://www.hearnow.org/isa_com.html

Koushi Shinigami

July 22nd, 2009, 7:58 am

Well, Koushi, I'm not surprised that you don't think I'm helpful. You seem to have that kind of attitude...

To thine own self be true.

I have spent almost every waking hour of my life trying to be helpful to others, but then some folks just don't think they ever need any help, especially when the help might come from one of those silly Bible believers.

You name too large of a group.

And your implication that I reject God and Jesus is wrong. There is simply too little in what you describe as "dispensationalism" that I agree with, for me to accept it as a dogma that I will follow. You have helped me in one way though. I'm now considering ripping all of Paul's works out of my bible.

DispensationalJim

July 22nd, 2009, 8:35 am

To thine own self be true.

You name too large of a group.

And your implication that I reject God and Jesus is wrong. There is simply too little in what you describe as "dispensationalism" that I agree with, for me to accept it as a dogma that I will follow. You have helped me in one way though. I'm now considering ripping all of Paul's works out of my bible.

As you say, Koushi, "to thine own self be true."

I don't think I implied that you reject God and Jesus. You have indicated in the past a rather thorough knowledge of Catholicism (at least IMO you seemed to be acquainted with "Catholic terminolgy" -- that is, words and expressions that most "protestants" I know don't normally use) so I have guessed that you had at some point in your life become a "disgruntled" Catholic, but maybe I'm way off base on that. You seem to feel that I am way off base on many things. :)

And I'm sorry if I have "turned you off" on Paul. The doctrine of "Pauline dispensationalism" changed my life and put me on a renewed mission to preach the Gospel of Jesus Christ to anyone who would listen.

Here are two passages from Paul that did it for me:
• Rom. 12:1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service. 2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.
• Gal. 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

If those words don't motivate someone to live for Christ, I can't imagine what more it would take...

Koushi Shinigami

July 22nd, 2009, 8:43 am

but maybe I'm way off base on that.

Ayup.

If those words don't motivate someone to live for Christ, I can't imagine what more it would take...

Meh, This one speaks to me more.

John8: 12Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.

CMike11

July 22nd, 2009, 9:04 am

Here is a favorite passage to show what the "Messiah" did for us:
Is. 53:1 Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed?
Is. 53:2 For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him.
Is. 53:3 He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.
Is. 53:4 ¶ Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.
Is. 53:5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.
Is. 53:6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
Is. 53:7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.
Is. 53:8 He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.
Is. 53:9 And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.
Is. 53:10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.
Is. 53:11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.
Is. 53:12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

============================

There are obviously many commentaries on this passage.

But here is one entitled "Isaiah 53:How Do the Rabbis Interpret This?"
http://www.hearnow.org/isa_com.html

The subject of Isaiah 53 is Israel, it has nothing to do with the messiah.

I asked a straight question, could you please give me a straight answer.

Can you give any passage from the Torah where the christianity theory is clearly mentioned?

I am not talking about mentioning the messiah. The messiah is a jewish concept. The making him into your god and worshipping him is a chrisitan one.

DispensationalJim

July 22nd, 2009, 10:06 am

The subject of Isaiah 53 is Israel, it has nothing to do with the messiah.

I asked a straight question, could you please give me a straight answer.

Can you give any passage from the Torah where the christianity theory is clearly mentioned?

I am not talking about mentioning the messiah. The messiah is a jewish concept. The making him into your god and worshipping him is a chrisitan one.

I thought Is. 53 was a pretty straight answer. There were many rabbis on the web site I listed following the quote who stated that their view was that Is. 53 was about the Messiah. I have seen other comments from more current Jewish sources, also. If you wish, I will try to find them for you.

Thus, as I see it, it is YOUR OPINION, Mike, that Isaiah 53 is ONLY about Israel. No doubt, you can give some of your favorite authorities to support your opinion, so that would be fine. Now, I will grant you that there are some prophecies about the Messiah that even Christian theologians concede can also be taken as speaking about Israel, as well, so maybe that is where our disagreement goes to.

The Messiah is IMO simply a Bible concept. But naturally, the Jewish faithful were the ones who carefully copied and preserved the Torah/Tanach, so I am extremely grateful for that.

As I re-read Isaiah 53, I can see almost every Christian doctrine that I hold dear. The web site I listed actually goes into some of them, so just to make it easy for everyone, I will put those comments on my next post.

DispensationalJim

July 22nd, 2009, 10:09 am

From this web site:
http://www.hearnow.org/isa_com.html

====================================

"Isaiah 53:How Do the Rabbis Interpret This?

Rabbi Moses Alschech(1508-1600) says:
"Our Rabbis with one voice accept and affirm the opinion that the prophet is speaking of the Messiah, and we shall ourselves also adhere to the same view."

Abrabanel (1437-1508) said earlier:
"This is also the opinion of our own learned men in the majority of their Midrashim."

Rabbi Yafeth Ben Ali ( second half of the 10th Century):
"As for myself, I am inclined to regard it as alluding to the Messiah."

Abraham Farissol ( 1451- 1526) says:
"In this chapter there seem to be considerable resemblances and allusions to the work of the Christian Messiah and to the events which are asserted to have happened to Him, so that no other prophecy is to be found the gist and subject of which can be so immediately applied to Him."

Targum Jonathan ( 4th Century ) gives the introduction on Isa. 52:13:
"Behold, my servant the Messiah..."

Gersonides (1288-1344) on Deut. 18:18:
"In fact Messiah is such a prophet, as it is stated in the Midrasch on the verse,'Behold, my servant shall prosper...' (Isa. 52:13)."

Midrash Tanchuma:
"He was more exalted than Abraham, more extolled than Mose, higher than the archangels" (Isa.52:13).

Yalkut Schimeon ( ascribed to Rabbi Simeon Kara, 12th Century ) says on Zech.4:7:
"He ( the king Messiah ) is greater than the patriarchs, as it is said, 'My servant shall be high, and lifted up, and lofty exceedingly' (Isa. 52:13)."

Maimonides (1135-12O4) wrote to Rabbi Jacob Alfajumi:
"Likewise said Isaiah that He (Messiah) would appear without acknowledging a father or mother: 'He grew up before him as a tender plant and as a root out of a dry ground' etc. (Isa.53:2)."

Tanchuma:
"Rabbi Nachman says: ,The Word MAN in the passage, 'Every man a head of the house of his father' (Num.1,4), refers to the Messiah, the son of David, as it is written, 'Behold the man whose name is Zemach'(the Branch) where Jonathan interprets,'Behold the man Messiah' (Zech.6:12); and so it is said,'A man of pains and known to sickness' (Isa.53:3)."

Talmud Sanhedrin (98b):
"Messiah ...what is his name? The Rabbis say,'The leprous one'; those of the house of the Rabbi (Jehuda Hanassi, the author of the Mishna, 135-200) say: 'Cholaja' (The sickly), for it says, 'Surely he has borne our sicknesses' etc. (Isa.53,4)."

Pesiqta Rabbati (ca.845)on Isa. 61,10:
"The world-fathers (patriarchs) will one day in the month of Nisan arise and say to (the Messiah): 'Ephraim, our righteous Anointed, although we are your grandparents, yet you are greater than we, for you have borne the sins of our children, as it says: 'But surely he has borne our sicknesses and carried our pains; yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God and afflicted. But he was pierced because of our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was laid upon him and through his wounds we are healed'(Isa.53,4-5)."

Rabbi Simeon Ben Jochai (2.Century), Zohar,, part II, page 212a and III, page 218a, Amsterdam Ed.):
"There is in the garden of Eden a palace called : 'The palace of the sons of sickness, <, this palace the Messiah enters, and summons every sickness, every pain, and every chastisement of Israel: they all come and rest upon Him. And were it not that He had thus lightened them off Israel, and taken them upon Himself, there had been no man able to bear Israels chastisement for the transgression of the law; this is that which is written, 'Surely our sicknesses he has carried' Isa.53,4).- As they tell Him (the Messiah) of the misery of Israel in their captivity, and of those wicked ones among them who are not attentive to know their Lord, He lifts up His voice and weeps for their wickedness; and so it is written,'He was wounded for our transgressions' (Isa.53,5). Midrash (on Ruth 2,14): "He is speaking of the King Messiah - 'Come hither', i.e.">Draw near to the throne<; 'eat of the bread', i.e.>, The bread of the kingdom.' This refers to the chastisements<, as it is said, 'But he was wounded for our transgressions, bruised for our iniquities' (Isa.53,5). Rabbi Elijah de Vidas (16.Century) :
"The meaning of 'He was wounded for our transgressions, bruised for our iniquities' is, that since the Messiah bears our iniquities which produce the ef fect of His being bruised, it follows that whoever will not admit that Messiah thus suffers for our iniquities must endure and suffer for them himself."

Siphre:
"Rabbi Jose the Galilean said, 'Come and learn the merits of the King Messiah and the reward of the Just - from the first man who received but one commandment, a prohibition, and transgressed it. Consider how many deaths were inflicted upon himself, upon his own generation, and upon those who followed them, till the end of all generations. Which attribute is greater, the attribute of goodness, or the attribute of vengeance?'- He answered, 'The attribute of goodness is greater, and the attribute of vengeance is the less.' - 'How much more then, will the King Messiah, who endures affliction and pains for the transgressions (as it is written, 'He was wounded,'etc.), justify all generations. This is the meaning of the word, 'And the LORD made the iniquity of us all to meet upon Him' (Isa.53:6)."

Rabbi Eleazer Kalir (9.Century) wrote the following Musaf Prayer:
"Our righteous Messiah has departed from us. Horror has seized us and we have no one to justify us. He has borne our transgressions and the yoke of our iniquities, and is wounded because of our transgressions. He bore our sins upon His shoulders that we may find pardon for our iniquity. We shall be healed by His wounds, at the time when the Eternal will recreate Him a new creature. Oh bring Him up from the circle of the earth, raise Him up from Seir, that we may hear Him the second time."

Rabbi Moses, 'The Preacher'(11. Century) wrote in his commentary on Genesis (page 660):
"From the beginning God has made a covenant with the Messiah and told Him,'My righteous Messiah, those who are entrusted to you, their sins will bring you into a heavy yoke'..And He answered, 'I gladly accept all these agonies in order that not one of Israel should be lost.' Immediately, the Messiah accepted all agonies with love, as it is written: 'He was oppressed and he was afflicted'."

Pesiqta (on Isa. 61:10):
"Great oppressions were laid upon You, as it says: 'By oppression and judgement he was taken away; but who considered in his time, that he was cut off out of the land of the living, that he was stricken because of the sins of our children' (Isa.53:8), as it says:'But the LORD has laid on him the guild of us all'(Isa.53:6)."

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Brith Hachadasha (The New Testament) gives the following references to Isaiah 53:

Isaiah 53:1
-"Even after he had done so many miraculous signs in their presence, they still would not believe in him. This was to fulfill the word of Isaiah the prophet: 'LORD, who has believed our message and to whom has the arm of the LORD been revealed?'" (John 12:37&38).

Isaiah 53:1
-"But not all the Israelites accepted the good news. For Isaiah says, "LORD, who has believed our message?" - Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word of God" (Rom.10:16&17).

Isaiah 53:4
-"He healed all the sick. This was to fulfill what was spoken through the prophet Isaiah: 'He took our infirmities' and carried our diseases' (Matth. 8:16&17)."

Isaiah 53:5-6
-"He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, so that we might die to sins and live for righteousness; by his wounds you have been healed. For you were like sheep going astray, but now you have returned to the Shepherd and Overseer of your souls" (1 Peter 2:24&25).

Isaiah 53:7-8
-"The passage of the Scripture which he reads was this: "He was led like a sheep to the slaughter, and as a lamb before the shearer is silent, so he did not open his mouth. In his humiliation he was deprived of justice. Who can speak of his descendants? For his life was taken from the earth<. The eunuch asked Philip, "Tell me, please, who is the prophet talking about, himself or someone else?" Then Philip began with that very passage of Scripture and told him the good news about Jesus." (Acts 8,32-35).

Isaiah 53:9
-"He committed no sin, and no deceit was found in his mouth" (1 Peter 2:22).

Isaiah 53:7-8
-"The passage of the Scripture which he read was this: He was led like a sheep to the slaughter, and as a lamb before the shearer is silent, so he did not open his mouth. In his humiliation he was deprived of justice. Who can speak of his descendants? For his life was taken from the earth.' The eunuch asked Philip, "Tell me, please, who is the prophet talking about, himself or someone else?" Then Philip began with that very passage of Scripture and told him the good news about Jesus" (Acts 8:32-35).

Isaiah 53:9
-"He committed no sin, and no deceit was found in his mouth" (1 Peter 2:22).

Isaiah 53:12
-"It is written: 'And he was numbered with the transgressors'; and I tell you that this must be fulfilled in me. Yes, what is written about me is reaching fulfillment" (Luke 22:37).

Isaiah 53:12
-"They crucified two robbers with him, one on his right and one on his left. And the Scripture was fulfilled, which says: 'And he was numbered with the transgressors" (Mark 15:27 & 28)

! would like to extend a special thanks to Alexander N. Benner who contributed this information."

===============================

DispensationalJim

July 22nd, 2009, 10:20 am

...
Meh, This one speaks to me more.

John8: 12Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.

I certainly concede that is a wonderful quote.

But how about these words from Paul:
• 2Cor. 4:6 For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.
• 2Tim. 1:9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began, 10 But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:

And here are the words Jesus spoke to Paul when He anointed him to preach the gospel:
• Acts 26:14 And when we were all fallen to the earth, I heard a voice speaking unto me, and saying in the Hebrew tongue, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? it is hard for thee to kick against the ******. 15 And I said, Who art thou, Lord? And he said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest. 16 But rise, and stand upon thy feet: for I have appeared unto thee for this purpose, to make thee a minister and a witness both of these things which thou hast seen, and of those things in the which I will appear unto thee; 17 Delivering thee from the people, and from the Gentiles, unto whom now I send thee, 18 To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.

Since you especially appreciate the words of Jesus Himself, those are some that I think you should add to your "favorites" list.

Koushi Shinigami

July 22nd, 2009, 10:35 am

I certainly concede that is a wonderful quote.

Thank you.

But how about these words from Paul:

What about them? They're from Paul. :shrug:

CMike11

July 22nd, 2009, 11:18 am

CMike11

July 22nd, 2009, 11:23 am

http://www.jewsforjudaism.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=313:isaiah-53&catid=72:scriptural-studies&Itemid=228

A. PRELIMINARY ISSUES

Jesus' own disciples didn't view Isaiah 53 as a messianic prophecy. For example, after Peter identifies Jesus as the Messiah (Matt. 16:16), he is informed that Jesus will be killed (Matt. 16:21). His response: "God forbid it, lord! This shall never happen to you" (Matt. 16:22). See, also, Mk. 9:31-32; Mk. 16:10-11; Jn. 20:9. Even Jesus didn't see Isaiah 53 as crucial to his messianic claims - why else did he call the Jews children of the devil for not believing in him before the alleged resurrection (Jn. 8:39-47)? And why did he later request that God "remove this cup from me" (Mk. 14:36) - didn't he know that a "removal of the cup" would violate the gentile understanding of Isaiah 53?

And third, even if we accept the gentile Christian interpretation of Isaiah 53, where is it indicated (either in Isaiah 53 or anywhere else in our Jewish Scriptures) that you must believe in this "Messiah" to get the benefits?

B. CONTEXT
Since any portion of Scripture is only understood properly when viewed in the context of God's revelation as a whole, some additional study will be helpful before you "tackle" Isaiah 53.

Look at the setting in which Isaiah 53 occurs. Earlier on in Isaiah, God had predicted exile and calamity for the Jewish people. Chapter 53, however, occurs in the midst of Isaiah's "Messages of Consolation", which tell of the restoration of Israel to a position of prominence and a vindication of their status as God's chosen people. In chapter 52, for example, Israel is described as "oppressed without cause" (v.4) and "taken away" (v.5), yet God promises a brighter future ahead, one in which Israel will again prosper and be redeemed in the sight of all the nations (v.1-3, 8-12).
Chapter 54 further elaborates upon the redemption which awaits the nation of Israel. Following immediately after chapter 53's promise of a reward for God's servant in return for all of its suffering (53:10-12), chapter 54 describes an unequivocally joyous fate for the Jewish people. Speaking clearly of the Jewish people and their exalted status (even according to all Christian commentaries), chapter 54 ends as follows: "`This is the heritage of the servants of the L-rd and their vindication is from Me,' declares the L-rd."
C. ISAIAH 53
]In the original Hebrew texts, there are no chapter divisions, and Jew and Christian alike agree that chapter 53 is actually a continuation of the prophecy which begins at 52:13. Accordingly, our analysis must begin at that verse[/COLOR]
52:13 "Behold, My servant will prosper." Israel in the singular is called God's servant throughout Isaiah, both explicitly (Isa. 41:8-9; 44:1-2; 45:4; 48:20; 49:3) and implicitly (Isa. 42:19-20; 43:10) - the Messiah is not. Other references to Israel as God's servant include Jer. 30:10 (note that in Jer. 30:17, the servant Israel is regarded by the nations as an outcast, forsaken by God, as in Isa. 53:4); Jer. 46:27-28; Ps. 136:22; Lk. 1:54. ALSO: Given the Christian view that Jesus is God, is God His own servant?
52:15 - 53:1 "So shall he (the servant) startle many nations, the kings will stand speechless; For that which had not been told them they shall see and that which they had not heard shall they ponder. Who would believe what we have heard?" Quite clearly, the nations and their kings will be amazed at what happens to the "servant of the L-rd," and they will say "who would believe what we have heard?". 52:15 tells us explicitly that it is the nations of the world, the gentiles, who are doing the talking in Isaiah 53. See, also, Micah 7:12-17, which speaks of the nations' astonishment when the Jewish people again blossom in the Messianic age.

53:1 "And to whom has the arm of the L-rd been revealed?" In Isaiah, and throughout our Scriptures, God's "arm" refers to the physical redemption of the Jewish people from the oppression of other nations (see, e.g., Isa. 52:8-12; Isa. 63:12; Deut. 4:34; Deut. 7:19; Ps. 44:3).

53:3 "Despised and rejected of men." While this is clearly applicable to Israel (see Isa. 60:15; Ps. 44:13-14), it cannot be reconciled with the New Testament account of Jesus, a man who was supposedly "praised by all" (Lk. 4:14-15) and followed by multitudes (Matt. 4:25), who would later acclaim him as a prophet upon his triumphal entry into Jerusalem (Matt. 21:9-11). Even as he was taken to be crucified, a multitude bemoaned his fate (Lk. 23:27). Jesus had to be taken by stealth, as the rulers feared "a riot of the people" (Mk. 14:1-2).

53:3 "A man of pains and acquainted with disease." Israel's adversities are frequently likened to sickness - see, e.g., Isa. 1:5-6; Jer. 10:19; Jer 30:12.
53:4 "Surely our diseases he carried and our pains he bore." In Matt. 8:17, this is correctly translated, and said to be literally (not spiritually) fulfilled in Jesus' healing of the sick, a reading inconsistent with the Christian mistranslation of 53:4 itself.

53:4 "Yet we ourselves esteemed him stricken, smitten of G- D and afflicted." See Jer. 30:17 - of God's servant Israel (30:10), it is said by the nations, "It is Zion; no one cares for her."

53:5 "But he was wounded from (NOTE: not for) our transgressions, he was crushed from (AGAIN: not for) our iniquities." Whereas the nations had thought the Servant (Israel) was undergoing Divine retribution for its sins (53:4), they now realize that the Servant's sufferings stemmed from their actions and sinfulness. This theme is further developed throughout our Jewish Scriptures - see, e.g., Jer. 50:7; Jer. 10:25. ALSO: Note that the Messiah "shall not fail nor be crushed till he has set the right in the earth" (Isa. 42:4).

53:7 "He was oppressed and he was afflicted, yet he did not open his mouth. Like a lamb that is led to slaughter, and like a sheep that is silent before its shearers, so he did not open his mouth." Note that in the prior chapter (Isa. 52), Israel is said to have been oppressed and taken away without cause (52:4-5). A similar theme is developed in Psalm 44, wherein King David speaks of Israel's faithfulness even in the face of gentile oppression (44:17- 18) and describes Israel as "sheep to be slaughtered" in the midst of the unfaithful gentile nations (44:22,11).

Regarding the claim that Jesus "did not open his mouth" when faced with oppression and affliction, see Matt. 27:46, Jn. 18:23, 36-37.

53:8 "From dominion and judgement he was taken away." Note the correct translation of the Hebrew. The Christians are forced to mistranslate, since - by Jesus' own testimony - he never had any rights to rulership or judgement, at least not on the "first coming." See, e.g., Jn. 3:17; Jn. 8:15; Jn. 12:47; Jn. 18:36.

53:8 "He was cut off out of the land of the living."

53:9 "His grave was assigned with wicked men." See Ez. 37:11-14, wherein Israelis described as "cut off" and God promises to open its "graves" and bring Israel back into its own land. Other examples of figurative deaths include Ex. 10:17; 2 Sam. 9:8; 2 Sam. 16:9.

53:8 "From my peoples' sins, there was injury to them." Here the Prophet makes absolutely clear, to anyone familiar with Biblical Hebrew, that the oppressed Servant is a collective Servant, not a single individual. The Hebrew word "lamoh", when used in our Scriptures, always means "to them" never "to him" and may be found, for example, in Psalm 99:7 - "They kept his testimonies, and the statute that He gave to them."

53:9 "And with the rich in his deaths." Perhaps King James should have changed the original Hebrew, which again makes clear that we are dealing with a collective Servant, i.e., Israel, which will "come to life" when the exile ends (Ez. 37:14).

53:9 "He had done no violence." See Matt. 21:12; Mk. 11:15-16; Lk. 19:45; Lk. 19:27; Matt. 10:34 and Lk. 12:51; then judge for yourself whether this passage is truly consistent with the New Testament account of Jesus.

53:10 "He shall see his seed." The Hebrew word for "seed", used in this verse, always refers to physical descendants in our Jewish Scriptures. See, e.g., Gen. 12:7; Gen. 15:13; Gen. 46:6; Ex. 28:43. A different word, generally translated as "sons", is used to refer to spiritual descendants (see Deut. 14:1, e.g.).

53:10 "He will prolong his days." Not only did Jesus die young, but how could the days be prolonged of someone who is alleged to be God?
53:11 "With his knowledge the righteous one, my Servant, will cause many to be just." Note again the correct translation: the Servant will cause many to be just, he will not "justify the many." The Jewish mission is to serve as a "light to the nations" which will ultimately lead the world to a knowledge of the one true God, this both by example (Deut. 4:5-8; Zech. 8:23) and by instructing the nations in God's Law (Isa. 2:3-4; Micah 4:2-3).

53:12 "Therefore, I will divide a portion to him with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the mighty." If Jesus is God, does the idea of reward have any meaning? Is it not rather the Jewish people - who righteously bore the sins of the world and yet remained faithful to God (Ps. 44) - who will be rewarded, and this in the manner described more fully in Isaiah chapters 52 and 54?

DispensationalJim

July 22nd, 2009, 11:28 am

Thank you.

What about them? They're from Paul. :shrug:

But what about the words of Jesus spoken to Paul in Acts 26? Are you suggesting that Jesus did not say them?

And since you apparently prefer the words of Jesus ONLY, how do you like these?

• Matt. 18:6 But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea. ... 29 And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell. 30 And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.

Or maybe you like these words of Jesus better:
• Luke 18:22 Now when Jesus heard these things, he said unto him, Yet lackest thou one thing: sell all that thou hast, and distribute unto the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me.

• Mark 8:34 And when he had called the people unto him with his disciples also, he said unto them, Whosoever will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

There are many more like that, but I think those make the point that Jesus had a very special ministry. And to whom was he ministering?
Here are more words from Jesus Himself:
• Matt. 15:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
• Matt. 10:5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not: 6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. 7 And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.

Even Paul (I know, ugh) realized this:
• Rom. 15:8 Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision (the nation of Israel) for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers:

But THE GOOD NEWS is that Paul realized this:
• Rom. 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
• Rom. 8:32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?
• 1Cor. 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
• 2Cor. 5:14 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead: 15 And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again. ....19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
• 1Tim. 1:15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.

I am so thankful that Jesus Christ Himself called Paul to be "the apostle of the Gentiles."

Koushi Shinigami

July 22nd, 2009, 11:36 am

But what about the words of Jesus spoken to Paul in Acts 26?

Don't care. :shrug: They were to Paul.

Are you suggesting that Jesus did not say them?

No. He said them.

To Paul.

And since you apparently prefer the words of Jesus ONLY, how do you like these?

Wouldn't those actually be the words of the author(s) of Matthew, Mark, and Luke?

I am so thankful that Jesus Christ Himself called Paul to be "the apostle of the Gentiles."

It would have been nice had Jesus Christ Himself chosen a better apostle to go to the Gentiles. I guess we got the leftovers.

DispensationalJim

July 22nd, 2009, 12:22 pm

Don't care. :shrug: They were to Paul.

No. He said them.

To Paul.

Wouldn't those actually be the words of the author(s) of Matthew, Mark, and Luke?

It would have been nice had Jesus Christ Himself chosen a better apostle to go to the Gentiles. I guess we got the leftovers.

Wow, Koushi... are you accusing Jesus of making a poor choice in picking Paul, who many Bible students believe was a leader of the Pharisees?

Do you think Jesus made poor choices in His twelve apostles, too? I can just imagine you thinking: "That Judas guy didn't work out too well, did he?" But, of course, Jesus knew exactly what Judas would do and actually told him to "go and do it," since that was the "secret" plan all along (oh, but we found that out from Paul, so I guess that doesn't count).

But here is what Paul said anyway just for the other readers, whether you want to consider it or not:
• 1Cor. 2:6 Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought: 7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory: 8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

And regarding the words of Jesus in Matthew through John, those guys were there when He spoke them, so they were quoting directly from "the horse's mouth".

Koushi Shinigami

July 22nd, 2009, 12:28 pm

Wow, Koushi... are you accusing Jesus of making a poor choice in picking Paul,

Yup.

who many Bible students believe was a leader of the Pharisees?

Yeah. Jesus had such good dealings with them. :rolleyes:

Do you think Jesus made poor choices in His twelve apostles, too? I can just imagine you thinking: "That Judas guy didn't work out too well, did he?" But, of course, Jesus knew exactly what Judas would do and actually told him to "go and do it," since that was the "secret" plan all along (oh, but we found that out from Paul, so I guess that doesn't count).

Hanging up there I'll bet He thought "Now that Judas, that was a GREAT idea. :rolleyes: "

And regarding the words of Jesus in Matthew through John, those guys were there when He spoke them, so they were quoting directly from "the horse's mouth".

Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John all wrote their own books?

DispensationalJim

July 22nd, 2009, 12:31 pm

I love to actually the context before it was massacred by the propogandists.

Isaiah 53 is clearly talking about Israel. It was one long prophesy. In the chapter right before it and after it, it clearly mentions Israel.

First, Mike, I want to thank you for providing that web site.

I have skimmed over it just to get the general "jist" of it, but I promise to read it VERY CAREFULLY later so I can respond more "intelligently" (which may be a word you don't use in the same sentence with a "fundamentalist". :)

DispensationalJim

July 22nd, 2009, 12:38 pm

Yup.

Yeah. Jesus had such good dealings with them. :rolleyes:

Hanging up there I'll bet He thought "Now that Judas, that was a GREAT idea. :rolleyes: "

Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John all wrote their own books?

So, why would you follow any words of Jesus if you think He made such bad choices in His apostles?

You are correct that the apostles did not seem to keep up with what Jesus was trying to tell them, but there is good reason for Jesus not making things "crystal clear" as I mentioned in my previous post. If He had gone around telling people He was God and that he would die for their sins, Satan would not have had Him killed (at least according to Paul -- oh, no, not him again!)
• 1Cor. 2:6 Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought: 7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory: 8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

OK, Koushi, you can roll those eyes some more... :)

Edited to add: Yes, Koushi, according to MOST theologians, Matthew and Mark wrote their own books. Luke wrote his book and also wrote the Book of Acts. John wrote his book, and also wrote the epistles of 1John, 2John, 3John and The Revelation. Peter wrote two epistles, Jude (Jesus half-brother) wrote one epistle, and James wrote one epistle. Last, but not least (in my book, anyway), Paul wrote 13 epistles (Romans - Philemon). As far as I am concerned, no one knows for sure who wrote Hebrews, but I do not believe Paul wrote it.

Koushi Shinigami

July 22nd, 2009, 2:03 pm

So, why would you follow any words of Jesus if you think He made such bad choices in His apostles?

All great leaders have made mistakes in some of their choices of subordinates.

You

<snip>

:)

Meh.

Edited to add: Yes, Koushi, according to MOST theologians, Matthew and Mark wrote their own books. Luke wrote his book and also wrote the Book of Acts. John wrote his book, and also wrote the epistles of 1John, 2John, 3John and The Revelation. Peter wrote two epistles, Jude (Jesus half-brother) wrote one epistle, and James wrote one epistle. Last, but not least (in my book, anyway), Paul wrote 13 epistles (Romans - Philemon). As far as I am concerned, no one knows for sure who wrote Hebrews, but I do not believe Paul wrote it.

Good. That should cut down your required reading quite a bit, to just 13. Less for you to lug around as well.

CMike11

July 22nd, 2009, 2:29 pm

First, Mike, I want to thank you for providing that web site.

I have skimmed over it just to get the general "jist" of it, but I promise to read it VERY CAREFULLY later so I can respond more "intelligently" (which may be a word you don't use in the same sentence with a "fundamentalist". :)

Thank you Jim.

DispensationalJim

July 22nd, 2009, 3:37 pm

All great leaders have made mistakes in some of their choices of subordinates.

Meh.

Good. That should cut down your required reading quite a bit, to just 13. Less for you to lug around as well.

I imagine this may mystify you, Koushi, but we dispensationalists LOVE to study all the other books of our King James Bibles for many reasons, but mainly because we believe God gave us every book and because we believe every word in every book. But of course we always come back to "What Did Paul Say."

Just in case you have missed it, Paul said this (which is quoted rather often on this forum):
• 2Tim. 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

You may recall the "W.W.J.D.?" (What Would Jesus Do?) stickers (and bracelets, etc.) that were so popular a few years ago. Some of my buddies in the Grace Churches made up shirts and hats that have "W. W. P. D.?" (What Would Paul Do?").

When I would see one of those "W.W.J.D.?" stickers, I would say, "He would walk on water or raise someone from the dead." At least, with the "W. W. P. D.?" I have a little better chance of "keeping up with Paul." He even called himself the "chief of sinners" so I think I can relate to Paul's struggles a little more than to those of The Saviour. :)

Koushi Shinigami

July 22nd, 2009, 3:46 pm

I imagine this may mystify you, Koushi, but we dispensationalists LOVE to study all the other books of our King James Bibles for many reasons, but mainly because we believe God gave us every book and because we believe every word in every book.

Nothing mystical about it. You've plenty of tspare time on your hands.

But of course we always come back to "What Did Paul Say."

Doesn't seem to be a healthy fixation to me.

Just in case you have missed it, Paul said

Don't care.

You may recall the "W.W.J.D.?" (What Would Jesus Do?) stickers (and bracelets, etc.) that were so popular a few years ago. Some of my buddies in the Grace Churches made up shirts and hats that have "W. W. P. D.?" (What Would Paul Do?").

When I would see one of those "W.W.J.D.?" stickers, I would say, "He would walk on water or raise someone from the dead." At least, with the "W. W. P. D.?" I have a little better chance of "keeping up with Paul." He even called himself the "chief of sinners" so I think I can relate to Paul's struggles a little more than to those of The Saviour. :)

So it's ok to take the easy way out? I really think one should be following Jesus and not a mere mortal man.

BTW, Where did Jesus command us to walk on water or raise the dead? Where did Jesus command us to do anything that would be impossible for us to do?

DispensationalJim

July 22nd, 2009, 6:17 pm

So it's ok to take the easy way out? I really think one should be following Jesus and not a mere mortal man.

BTW, Where did Jesus command us to walk on water or raise the dead? Where did Jesus command us to do anything that would be impossible for us to do?

I am following Christ, but through Paul...
• 1Cor. 11:1 Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ.

I already gave you some verses from His words which I highly doubt that you are following. Here they are again:
• Matt. 18:6 But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea. ... 29 And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell. 30 And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.

• Luke 18:22 Now when Jesus heard these things, he said unto him, Yet lackest thou one thing: sell all that thou hast, and distribute unto the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me.

• Mark 8:34 And when he had called the people unto him with his disciples also, he said unto them, Whosoever will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

So, Koushi, are you following those verses? Please tell us when you began cutting off your fingers, plucking out your eyes, etc...

Finality

July 22nd, 2009, 6:22 pm

I am following Christ, but through Paul...
• 1Cor. 11:1 Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ.

I already gave you some verses from His words which I highly doubt that you are following. Here they are again:
• Matt. 18:6 But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea. ... 29 And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell. 30 And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.

• Luke 18:22 Now when Jesus heard these things, he said unto him, Yet lackest thou one thing: sell all that thou hast, and distribute unto the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me.

• Mark 8:34 And when he had called the people unto him with his disciples also, he said unto them, Whosoever will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

So, Koushi, are you following those verses? Please tell us when you began cutting off your fingers, plucking out your eyes, etc...
Out of curiosity, how does a body part offend its owner? Do body parts have will or intent of their own?

DRS

July 22nd, 2009, 6:35 pm

Out of curiosity, how does a body part offend its owner? Do body parts have will or intent of their own?

It doesn't the greek is snare or stumble

DispensationalJim

July 22nd, 2009, 10:34 pm

Out of curiosity, how does a body part offend its owner? Do body parts have will or intent of their own?

Forgive me, Finality. I should have given a little more context, as below:
• Matt. 5:27 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery: 28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart. 29 And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell. 30 And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.

Now, with that context added, it is easy to see that the right eye offended the body by lusting after a woman.

I agree that we are all ultimately responsible for whatever we allow our body parts to do, but please permit me to use a sadly too common problem as an example:

My parents were alcoholics and my mom was a chain-smoker. They seemed to have little control over those addictions. These days many psychiatrists, etc. call alcoholism a "disease" so they IMO sort of take away the responsibility. They even consider "sexual addiction" as a "disease" in some clinics. Some "experts" have stated that second hand smoke is by far the greatest cause of S.I.D.S. (Sudden Infant Death Syndrome). I was told my older brother died of S.I.D.S. in 1936. I and my 3 sisters all were 3 lb. premies born at 7 months, and all of us have had various breathing problems throughout our lives.

Thus, the debate goes to whether the act of getting drunk or committing adultery or "killing" someone with second hand smoke is a sin or "just" a sympton of a disease.

If you have a "disease" of alcoholism and your hand constantly grabs a bottle and sticks it in your mouth, would it be better to cut it off or not? If you are constantly eyeing the girls and then "going after them" would it be better to pluck out your eye?

Maybe we should start another thread about this...

Koushi Shinigami

July 23rd, 2009, 8:18 am

I am following Christ, but through Paul...

You have an intercessor between you and Christ? Sounds rather Catholic.

• 1Cor. 11:1 Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ.

Sounds like Paul is taking away from Christ. BAD Paul. :naughty:

I already gave you some verses from His words which I highly doubt that you are following. Here they are again:
• Matt. 18:6 But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea. ... 29 And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell. 30 And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.

Are you really going with a literal translation of that passage? Ok then, in answer to your question, I've never been offended by any part of my body, so I have had no need to cut off any hands or gouge out any eyes. Although, there was this tonsil once... and a few ingrown toenails.... :think:

• Luke 18:22 Now when Jesus heard these things, he said unto him, Yet lackest thou one thing: sell all that thou hast, and distribute unto the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me.

• Mark 8:34 And when he had called the people unto him with his disciples also, he said unto them, Whosoever will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

I'm still working on this one:

36"Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?" 37Jesus replied: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.'[a] 38This is the first and greatest commandment. 39And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' [B]40All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."

The last part covers everything else.

So, Koushi, are you following those verses? Please tell us when you began cutting off your fingers, plucking out your eyes, etc...

Nice try Jim.

Koushi Shinigami

July 23rd, 2009, 8:26 am

Forgive me, Finality. I should have given a little more context, as below:
• Matt. 5:27 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery: 28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart. 29 And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell. 30 And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.

Now, with that context added, it is easy to see that the right eye offended the body by lusting after a woman.

I agree that we are all ultimately responsible for whatever we allow our body parts to do, but please permit me to use a sadly too common problem as an example:

My parents were alcoholics and my mom was a chain-smoker. They seemed to have little control over those addictions. These days many psychiatrists, etc. call alcoholism a "disease" so they IMO sort of take away the responsibility. They even consider "sexual addiction" as a "disease" in some clinics. Some "experts" have stated that second hand smoke is by far the greatest cause of S.I.D.S. (Sudden Infant Death Syndrome). I was told my older brother died of S.I.D.S. in 1936. I and my 3 sisters all were 3 lb. premies born at 7 months, and all of us have had various breathing problems throughout our lives.

I had a similar environment growing up. My dad chain smoked from the day my sisters and I were born till long after we all left home. None of us have had any health issues that could be attributed to 'second hand smoke'.

Thus, the debate goes to whether the act of getting drunk or committing adultery or "killing" someone with second hand smoke is a sin or "just" a sympton of a disease.

If you have a "disease" of alcoholism and your hand constantly grabs a bottle and sticks it in your mouth, would it be better to cut it off or not? If you are constantly eyeing the girls and then "going after them" would it be better to pluck out your eye?

Maybe we should start another thread about this...

Wow. You should contact all the *-anon programs and let them know you can reduce their 12 step lists to just one. :rolleyes:

Cut off the hand of an alchoholic and you have a one handed alchoholic.

Gouge out the eyes of a philanderer and you have a blind philanderer. Take the recent case in New York. Elliot Spitzer had full eyesight and chased high priced hookers. He gets bounced out of office and his blind Lt Governor moves up. The man is blind, so according to you, Jim, he should be the model of the faithful husband. Within days of taking office, Patterson announces he has had several affairs. Guess the blind thing didn't work so well to keep him faithful.

Point being, chopping off an appendage will not make someone change their behaviour. The hand does not make someone an alchoholic. The mind does. Untill the mind and the behaviours within are addressed, no improvement can happen. Kinda shoots a bunch of holes in reading Luke 18:22 literally.

HardHammer

July 23rd, 2009, 9:57 am

Point being, chopping off an appendage will not make someone change their behaviour. The hand does not make someone an alchoholic. The mind does. Untill the mind and the behaviours within are addressed, no improvement can happen. Kinda shoots a bunch of holes in reading Luke 18:22 literally.

Interesting, when they chop of a thieves hand in Saudi Arabia I suspect it changes the behavior of the thief quite dramatically. Next time they chop off the other hand, the 3rd time they kill them. So, does the behavior change, I would have to say yes, eventually it changes forever.

You should ask a one handed Saudi if he thinks it's ok to steal...

Koushi Shinigami

July 23rd, 2009, 10:03 am

Interesting, when they chop of a thieves hand in Saudi Arabia I suspect it changes the behavior of the thief quite dramatically. Next time they chop off the other hand, the 3rd time they kill them. So, does the behavior change, I would have to say yes, eventually it changes forever.

You should ask a one handed Saudi if he thinks it's ok to steal...

We're going to base this on your suspicions? Why don't you bring in some data.

The fact that they have a second and third consequence indicates that the first punishment does not give changed behaviour in 100% of the cases.

DispensationalJim

July 23rd, 2009, 12:55 pm

Cut off the hand of an alchoholic and you have a one handed alchoholic.

Gouge out the eyes of a philanderer and you have a blind philanderer. Take the recent case in New York. Elliot Spitzer had full eyesight and chased high priced hookers. He gets bounced out of office and his blind Lt Governor moves up. The man is blind, so according to you, Jim, he should be the model of the faithful husband. Within days of taking office, Patterson announces he has had several affairs. Guess the blind thing didn't work so well to keep him faithful.

Point being, chopping off an appendage will not make someone change their behaviour. The hand does not make someone an alchoholic. The mind does. Untill the mind and the behaviours within are addressed, no improvement can happen. Kinda shoots a bunch of holes in reading Luke 18:22 literally.

I agree with you, Koushi!

But I was just trying to show that trying to follow the words of Jesus Christ Himself literally could be quite a task, maybe even impossible. Like this, for instance:
• Matt. 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

Especially if you put it with this one:
• Matt. 19:21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.

====================================

But, IMO, Paul gives us the solution by pointing us directly to Christ and His payment for our sins:
• Rom. 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
• 1Cor. 15:3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; 4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
• Eph. 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
• 2Cor. 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

So that this verse reflects what happens when we are IN CHRIST:
• 2Cor. 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

Thus, by faith we receive HIS RIGHTEOUSNESS:
• Rom. 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: ... 25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; ... 26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

In fact, His righteousness is a FREE GIFT!
• Rom. 4:22 And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness.
• Rom. 5:17 For if by one man’s offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.) 18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

Thank you, LORD Jesus!

Koushi Shinigami

July 23rd, 2009, 1:45 pm

I agree with you, Koushi!

Yippee ki yay.

But I was just trying to show that trying to follow the words of Jesus Christ Himself literally could be quite a task, maybe even impossible.

I never said anything about following all of Jesus' words literally. You brought in that red herring.

But, IMO, Paul

Once again. Don't care.

James 2:20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead?[

DispensationalJim

July 23rd, 2009, 2:43 pm

.

James 2:20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead?[

I'll see your "works" verse and raise you one... (I'm not a card player, but I've heard that phrase used on TV -- and I once stayed at a Holiday Inn, too)...
• Eph. 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Koushi, since you keep bringing up the Jewish program (James agreed to go to the Jews with his "gospel of the kingdom"), maybe you can tell us what good things you have done for the "spreading of the kingdom"... I for one would love to hear what your "ministry" is these days -- besides aggravating us fundamentalists, that is... :)

Koushi Shinigami

July 23rd, 2009, 3:05 pm

We each have our calling.

Your Ephesians quote looks to me like it's calling us to do the good works God wants us to do.

DispensationalJim

July 23rd, 2009, 4:29 pm

We each have our calling.

Your Ephesians quote looks to me like it's calling us to do the good works God wants us to do.

That sounds exactly right to me, Koushi.

Now IMO we all need to make sure we know just what He has told us to do TODAY in this present AGE OF GRACE! :)

Of course, that's where I believe issues like "rightly dividing the word of truth" and "sola Scriptura" and "eternal security" etc., etc. come into play, so I guess the debate goes on...

Thank you, BTW, Koushi, for actually reading a quote from Paul. I imagine it was unpleasant for you, but I thank you for suffering through it. :)

Koushi Shinigami

July 23rd, 2009, 4:37 pm

That sounds exactly right to me, Koushi.

Now IMO we all need to make sure we know just what He has told us to do TODAY in this present AGE OF GRACE! :)

Of course, that's where I believe issues like "rightly dividing the word of truth" and "sola Scriptura" and "eternal security" etc., etc. come into play, so I guess the debate goes on...

That's simple. It never changes. No 'division' needed. :rolleyes:

As Vir always says. "Division sucks."

Thank you, BTW, Koushi, for actually reading a quote from Paul. I imagine it was unpleasant for you, but I thank you for suffering through it. :)

Meh.

DispensationalJim

July 23rd, 2009, 6:34 pm

That's simple. It never changes. No 'division' needed. :rolleyes:

As Vir always says. "Division sucks."

Well, if it never changes, then just tell us what it is, please...

ralittlefield

July 24th, 2009, 5:57 am

Many verses discredit the Trinity, but I've found this one to be the nail in the coffin 1 Corinthians 11:3 (http://rds.yahoo.com/_ylt=A0geu..OImlKAF8BLCVXNyoA;_ylu=X3oDMTByamlqaW9 mBHNlYwNzcgRwb3MDMwRjb2xvA2FjMgR2dGlkAw--/SIG=11q2eb9v5/EXP=1248490510/**http%3a//bible.cc/1_corinthians/11-3.htm)

But I want you to understand that Christ is the head of every man, and the man is the head of a woman, and God is the head of Christ.

(http://rds.yahoo.com/_ylt=A0geu..OImlKAF8BLCVXNyoA;_ylu=X3oDMTByamlqaW9 mBHNlYwNzcgRwb3MDMwRjb2xvA2FjMgR2dGlkAw--/SIG=11q2eb9v5/EXP=1248490510/**http%3a//bible.cc/1_corinthians/11-3.htm)

Please elaborate.

I do not see how that disproves the trinity.

DRS

July 24th, 2009, 8:16 am

Please elaborate.

I do not see how that disproves the trinity.

There is only one God right weel apparently God is the head of Jesus and since God is the head of Jesus Jesus is not God

Koushi Shinigami

July 24th, 2009, 8:43 am

Well, if it never changes, then just tell us what it is, please...

It's in the book. Look it up.

DispensationalJim

July 24th, 2009, 11:43 am

It's in the book. Look it up.

Thanks for the heart-warming willingness to help us, Koushi.

Actually, I'm guessing you don't know the answer, or you would be thrilled to give it to all of us. As you know, I've been reading (and diligently studying) "THE BOOK" for over 50 years, and I'm sure my answer is much different than yours. Why do you suppose that is? Is it an IQ thing, or what?

I'll post my answer later today, since you're apparently not willing to summarize the answer to what God wants us to do TODAY in this PRESENT AGE OF GRACE.

Koushi Shinigami

July 24th, 2009, 1:26 pm

Thanks for the heart-warming willingness to help us, Koushi.

Anytime.

Actually, I'm guessing you don't know the answer, or you would be thrilled to give it to all of us.

Go ahead. Won't be the fist time you guess wrong.

As you know, I've been reading (and diligently studying) "THE BOOK" for over 50 years,

That is something about which you should have a lot of pride. But whom are you trying to impress? It does nothing for me.

and I'm sure my answer is much different than yours.

Of this I am certain.

Why do you suppose that is? Is it an IQ thing, or what?

IDK. You tell me.

I'll post my answer later today, since you're apparently not willing to summarize the answer to what God wants us to do TODAY in this PRESENT AGE OF GRACE.

I can summarize it in one Word. I look forward to seeing what you come up with.

DispensationalJim

July 24th, 2009, 1:48 pm

I can summarize it in one Word. I look forward to seeing what you come up with.

Here is one of my tracts which I pass out at the Nursing Homes and Missions, etc.:

==============================================

Why do I need to be saved?

Our one and only apostle for this Age of Grace, Paul (see Romans 11:13, 1Corinthians 4:16; 11:1; etc.), tells us this:

• Romans 3:23: “For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God”

• Romans 6:23: “For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.”

So how can I be saved?

God uses the apostle Paul to tell us how to be saved:

• 1 Corinthians 15:1: “...I declare unto you THE GOSPEL which I preached unto you... 2 By which also YE ARE SAVED...”

The apostle of the Gentiles, Paul, continues:

• 1Corinthians 15:3-4: “For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that
CHRIST DIED FOR OUR SINS according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures”

• Romans 5:8-10: “But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, CHRIST DIED FOR US. Much more then, being NOW justified by his blood, WE SHALL BE SAVED from wrath through him.

Paul explains that salvation is a present possession:

• Romans. 5:1: Therefore being justified BY FAITH, we HAVE peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ: ... 11 And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom WE HAVE NOW received the atonement.”

• 1Corinthians 2:12 Now we HAVE RECEIVED ... the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are FREELY GIVEN TO US OF GOD.

• 1Corinthians 6:19 What? know ye not that your body IS the temple of the Holy Ghost which IS IN YOU, which ye HAVE of God, and ye are not your own?
• Ephesians 1:7 In whom we HAVE redemption THROUGH HIS BLOOD, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace; ... 11 In whom also we HAVE obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

But, don’t we have to do our part to be saved?
God tells us repeatedly that we CANNOT do anything to earn salvation except believe in Christ.

• Romans 4:4-5: “Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith IS counted for righteousness;”

• Romans 11:6: “And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work;”

And one of the best known passages from the apostle Paul in the Bible:

• Ephesians 2:8-9: “ For BY GRACE ARE YE SAVED THROUGH FAITH; and that not of yourselves: it is the GIFT of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.”

So just by believing in Christ, we ARE saved?

Absolutely! The Bible makes it clear:

• Ephesians 1:13: “In whom (Christ) ye also TRUSTED, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye WERE sealed with that holy Spirit of promise...”

And God tells us exactly how we ARE made righteous in this present Age of Grace.

• Romans 3:24-25 says: “Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins...”

• Romans 4:4-5: “Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith IS counted for righteousness;”

• 2 Corinthians 5:21: “For he (God the Father) hath made him (God the Son) to be SIN FOR US, who (Jesus) knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.”

========================================

DispensationalJim

July 24th, 2009, 1:49 pm

I can summarize it in one Word. ...

Please do...

Koushi Shinigami

July 24th, 2009, 2:20 pm

Here is one of my tracts which I pass out at the Nursing Homes and Missions, etc.:

Meh. I'd much rather see you explain it in your own words without cherry picking from other people's work.

Koushi Shinigami

July 24th, 2009, 2:21 pm

Please do...

Sure.

<SNIP> summarize the answer to what God wants us to do TODAY in this PRESENT AGE OF GRACE.

Love.

DRS

July 24th, 2009, 3:29 pm

Hey Jim since you have been studying the book for 50 years tell me how you can came to the conclusion people can say Jesus is wrong, he is not the messiah and say they can choose their path are going to enjoy blessings?

Koushi Shinigami

July 24th, 2009, 3:34 pm

DRS

July 24th, 2009, 3:38 pm

Something about division.

I do not think division was encourage as Jesus prayed his followers be one and he as he Father were one.

Of course I am always wondering for those who hold the view the Jews are all good with God, why did He send Jesus to the Jews first and what of the first converts?

DispensationalJim

July 24th, 2009, 4:51 pm

Meh. I'd much rather see you explain it in your own words without cherry picking from other people's work.

I much prefer letting God speak through His Holy Word, but in my own words, I would say that God the Father wants us to trust in/believe in His Son and the completed payment Christ made on the cross for all of our sins.

Once an individual has trusted in Christ, he/she is immediately baptized and sealed by the Holy Spirit into the Body of Christ, thus gaining eternal life in heaven.

Once a person is in Christ, they then should read God's Holy Word (the Bible) and pray to the Lord to find out what their specific assignments will be.

In my own case, I saw what a special position was given to Paul and determined that he had the most pertinent information and guidance for the believer for today, so I chose to especially study his epistles, while also regularly checking out all of the Bible for "the rest of the story."

Is that enough, Koushi, or should I continue? I've got a meeting to attend, so I'll try to get back soon.

===================================

I would also add a comment on your one word answer, "Love." That word can be "interpreted" many ways, but basically in the Greek there are three forms of the word. One speaks of brotherly love (phileo), one speaks of sexual love (eros), and one speaks of God's Love (agape). That last one (and of course the best One) is sometimes translated as "Charity" in the King James.

Love is a great motivator, but it can sadly be taken so many ways as already mentioned.

So I would say that we all need to study and learn how God loves and then live like that.

Koushi Shinigami

July 24th, 2009, 5:02 pm

I much prefer letting God speak through His Holy Word, but in my own words, I would say that God the Father wants us to trust in/believe in His Son and the completed payment Christ made on the cross for all of our sins.

Once an individual has trusted in Christ, he/she is immediately baptized and sealed by the Holy Spirit into the Body of Christ, thus gaining eternal life in heaven.

Once a person is in Christ, they then should read God's Holy Word (the Bible) and pray to the Lord to find out what their specific assignments will be.

In my own case, I saw what a special position was given to Paul and determined that he had the most pertinent information and guidance for the believer for today, so I chose to especially study his epistles, while also regularly checking out all of the Bible for "the rest of the story."

Is that enough, Koushi, or should I continue? I've got a meeting to attend, so I'll try to get back soon.

===================================

I would also add a comment on your one word answer, "Love." That word can be "interpreted" many ways, but basically in the Greek there are three forms of the word. One speaks of brotherly love (phileo), one speaks of sexual love (eros), and one speaks of God's Love (agape). That last one (and of course the best One) is sometimes translated as "Charity" in the King James.

Love is a great motivator, but it can sadly be taken so many ways as already mentioned.

So I would say that we all need to study and learn how God loves and then live like that.

The word 'love' is not unique in that. As a matter of fact, English in general is a very poor means of communicating ideas in a clear, precise manner. But as it is what we are using at the moment, we do the best we can.

Funny, you list all those things that a believer must do. Jesus simply said to love God and to love you fellow man. The guide he gave for loving others was to do so as you love yourself. He also said from these two things, all else comes.

Twist it or complicate it any way you want. It still comes down to love.

Of course, it wasn't Paul who said or wrote that. So I guess according to your dogma, those two commandments don't apply to us, and we are not to do them. :rolleyes:

DispensationalJim

July 24th, 2009, 10:09 pm

The word 'love' is not unique in that. As a matter of fact, English in general is a very poor means of communicating ideas in a clear, precise manner. But as it is what we are using at the moment, we do the best we can.

Funny, you list all those things that a believer must do. Jesus simply said to love God and to love you fellow man. The guide he gave for loving others was to do so as you love yourself. He also said from these two things, all else comes.

Twist it or complicate it any way you want. It still comes down to love.

Of course, it wasn't Paul who said or wrote that. So I guess according to your dogma, those two commandments don't apply to us, and we are not to do them. :rolleyes:

Beg your pardon, Koushi, I guess you haven't been reading Paul much, so look what he said:
• Rom. 13:1 Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God. 2 Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation. 3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same: 4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil. 5 Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake. 6 For for this cause pay ye tribute also: for they are God’s ministers, attending continually upon this very thing. 7 Render therefore to all their dues: tribute to whom tribute is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honour to whom honour. 8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law. 9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law. 11 And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed. 12 The night is far spent, the day is at hand: let us therefore cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armour of light. 13 Let us walk honestly, as in the day; not in rioting and drunkenness, not in chambering and wantonness, not in strife and envying. 14 But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof.

Are you surprised, Koushi, that Paul would actually quote some words of Jesus? I think Paul quoted the Old Testament in almost every chapter he wrote.

Edited to add:
Here are some verses you should really appreciate from Paul about LOVE:
• Rom. 5:5 And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.
• Rom. 8:39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
• Rom. 8:35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
• 2Cor. 5:14 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead:
• 2Cor. 13:14 The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Ghost, be with you all. Amen.
• Eph. 3:19 And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God
• 2Th. 3:5 And the Lord direct your hearts into the love of God, and into the patient waiting for Christ.
• Titus 3:4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,

Finality

July 25th, 2009, 2:56 am

...
Why do I need to be saved?

Our one and only apostle for this Age of Grace, Paul (see Romans 11:13, 1Corinthians 4:16; 11:1; etc.), tells us this:

• Romans 3:23: “For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God”

• Romans 6:23: “For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.”
...
From reading that, I still don't know why or from what I need to be saved. Is that the opener? It seems like the reader already has to know the Christian lingo to even understand what the heck it's talking about.

DispensationalJim

July 25th, 2009, 7:38 am

From reading that, I still don't know why or from what I need to be saved. Is that the opener? It seems like the reader already has to know the Christian lingo to even understand what the heck it's talking about.

Sorry if that isn't clear enough for you, Finality, but those two verses are the "beginning" of what is often called "The Roman Road to Salvation" by evangelicals.
• Romans 3:23: “For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God”
• Romans 6:23: “For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.”

Most of us evangelicals think that the "death" there is a spiritual death, which means that the sinner whose sins have not been paid for will ultimately wind up in Hell and we as "preachers" often feel a need to "get a person lost before we can get them saved." In other words, we must convince them that we all are sinners, that we have all done things that God does not want us to do, and that none of uys are "good enough" to get into heaven.

I guess if people do not realize that they are sinners, then maybe we would have to list the Ten Commandments first, but do you really think most folks are unaware of their "sinful tendencies"?

And I also think that most people have heard of Billy Graham and other well known preachers who have been using those two verses to explain our need to be saved for at least the last 50 years in America and around the world (especially since TV came along). And of course Paul -- the apostle of the Gentiles -- was preaching it 2000 years ago.

Maybe you have a better way of "getting people lost" so they understand more clearly.

If so, I'm willing to consider it. :)

DRS

July 25th, 2009, 7:44 am

Or it can be simply sin and death and by death I mean you die

All die even those who were serving God faithfully died.

ralittlefield

July 25th, 2009, 8:04 am

Or it can be simply sin and death and by death I mean you die

All die even those who were serving God faithfully died.

Some will die twice.

DRS

July 25th, 2009, 8:07 am

Some will die twice.

Yep the second time when Satan is released and then it will be once and for all

DispensationalJim

July 25th, 2009, 9:21 am

Or it can be simply sin and death and by death I mean you die

All die even those who were serving God faithfully died.

Unless the Rapture occurs first... oh, that's right, DRS, you don't believe in the Rapture, do you?

And you also do not believe in a literal Hell, right? Of course, that would be for another thread.

DRS

July 25th, 2009, 9:26 am

Unless the Rapture occurs first... oh, that's right, DRS, you don't believe in the Rapture, do you?

And you also do not believe in a literal Hell, right? Of course, that would be for another thread.

Do not believe in either as neither are scriptural

ralittlefield

July 25th, 2009, 9:33 am

Do not believe in either as neither are scriptural

What do you believe that this passage is saying if it is not the rapture?

1 thess 4
13 Brothers, we do not want you to be ignorant about those who fall asleep, or to grieve like the rest of men, who have no hope. 14 We believe that Jesus died and rose again and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. 15 According to the Lord’s own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. 18 Therefore encourage each other with these words.

DRS

July 25th, 2009, 9:38 am

What do you believe that this passage is saying if it is not the rapture?

1 thess 4
13 Brothers, we do not want you to be ignorant about those who fall asleep, or to grieve like the rest of men, who have no hope. 14 We believe that Jesus died and rose again and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. 15 According to the Lord’s own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. 18 Therefore encourage each other with these words.

So we get from that scripture that those who were dead were not in heaven yet, we see the dead are raised first then those who are alive will eventually get the same reward.

The dead had to await the return where as those who die during his prescence get raised immediately

ralittlefield

July 25th, 2009, 9:45 am

So we get from that scripture that those who were dead were not in heaven yet, we see the dead are raised first then those who are alive will eventually get the same reward.

The dead had to await the return where as those who die during his prescence get raised immediately

I believe verse 17 speaks of the rapture of living saints.

DRS

July 25th, 2009, 9:50 am

Can you show me someone who went to heaven without dying first?

If Jesus had to suffer and die why would anyone think the slaves of the master would get any different treatment

ralittlefield

July 25th, 2009, 10:02 am

Can you show me someone who went to heaven without dying first?

If Jesus had to suffer and die why would anyone think the slaves of the master would get any different treatment

I do not believe anyone has....yet. It will happen at the rapture. See verse 17 in the passage that I posted.

DRS

July 25th, 2009, 10:16 am

I do not believe anyone has....yet. It will happen at the rapture. See verse 17 in the passage that I posted.

1 Corinthians 15:50*However, this I say, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit God’s kingdom, neither does corruption inherit incorruption

Jesus had to die and be raised to incorruption or immortatlity

ralittlefield

July 25th, 2009, 10:20 am

1 Corinthians 15:50*However, this I say, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit God’s kingdom, neither does corruption inherit incorruption

Jesus had to die and be raised to incorruption or immortatlity

What do you believe this verse means?

17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.

It sounds very much like how I understand the rapture.

DRS

July 25th, 2009, 11:00 am

They will get their reward immediately unlike those who were asleep in death awaiting his presence

ralittlefield

July 25th, 2009, 11:43 am

They will get their reward immediately unlike those who were asleep in death awaiting his presence

What does "caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air" mean?

DRS

July 25th, 2009, 11:49 am

What does "caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air" mean?

You will get your reward also

DispensationalJim

July 25th, 2009, 2:15 pm

What do you believe this verse means?

17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.

It sounds very much like how I understand the rapture.

And, Ralph, it sounds like it is not the same as when Jesus comes back to set up His Kingdom:
• Zech. 14:1 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.
Zech. 14:2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
Zech. 14:3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
Zech. 14:4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
Zech. 14:5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.
Zech. 14:6 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark:
Zech. 14:7 But it shall be one day which shall be known to the LORD, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light.
Zech. 14:8 And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.
Zech. 14:9 And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.

Edited to add:
• 2Pet. 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
• Rev. 17:14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.
• Rev. 19:16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.

So there is a Rapture (catching up) where Jesus comes and meets us in the air and takes us (the Body of Christ) to heaven.

Then there is The Second Coming when Christ shall set His feet on the Mount of Olives and then set up His Kingdom ON THE EARTH.

wesley wickline

July 25th, 2009, 3:00 pm

we must begin with the truth witch is YAHWEH is the Father and it is he we must call upon and he only.

ralittlefield

July 25th, 2009, 5:24 pm

You will get your reward also

I am not sure if you are not being serious, or if you are not being honest here.

It seems that you have completely ignored what the text says.

How do you get "You will get your reward also" from a verse that says we will be "caught up in the clouds" with Jesus?

I agree that being with Jesus will be a reward, but being taken alive to be with Jesus is what the rapture is.

I believe that this verse describes the rapture.

ralittlefield

July 25th, 2009, 5:26 pm

And, Ralph, it sounds like it is not the same as when Jesus comes back to set up His Kingdom:
• Zech. 14:1 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.
Zech. 14:2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
Zech. 14:3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
Zech. 14:4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
Zech. 14:5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.
Zech. 14:6 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark:
Zech. 14:7 But it shall be one day which shall be known to the LORD, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light.
Zech. 14:8 And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.
Zech. 14:9 And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.

Edited to add:
• 2Pet. 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
• Rev. 17:14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.
• Rev. 19:16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.

So there is a Rapture (catching up) where Jesus comes and meets us in the air and takes us (the Body of Christ) to heaven.

Then there is The Second Coming when Christ shall set His feet on the Mount of Olives and then set up His Kingdom ON THE EARTH.

Yes, they sound like different events.

ralittlefield

July 25th, 2009, 5:28 pm

we must begin with the truth witch is YAHWEH is the Father and it is he we must call upon and he only.

Is the truth witch a good witch or an evil witch?

(Sorry, I could not help myself)

Finality

July 26th, 2009, 1:06 am

Sorry if that isn't clear enough for you, Finality, but those two verses are the "beginning" of what is often called "The Roman Road to Salvation" by evangelicals.
• Romans 3:23: “For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God”
• Romans 6:23: “For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.”

Most of us evangelicals think that the "death" there is a spiritual death, which means that the sinner whose sins have not been paid for will ultimately wind up in Hell and we as "preachers" often feel a need to "get a person lost before we can get them saved." In other words, we must convince them that we all are sinners, that we have all done things that God does not want us to do, and that none of uys are "good enough" to get into heaven.

I guess if people do not realize that they are sinners, then maybe we would have to list the Ten Commandments first, but do you really think most folks are unaware of their "sinful tendencies"?

And I also think that most people have heard of Billy Graham and other well known preachers who have been using those two verses to explain our need to be saved for at least the last 50 years in America and around the world (especially since TV came along). And of course Paul -- the apostle of the Gentiles -- was preaching it 2000 years ago.

Maybe you have a better way of "getting people lost" so they understand more clearly.

If so, I'm willing to consider it. :)
I have no suggestions, as I am not a believer and wouldn't want to offer you ill advice.

The concept of getting people lost to teach them something is all together foreign to me. I would not want to lead someone astray or confuse them if I was trying to teach them something I thought was truth.

Also, unless the message is primarily for Christians already, I think it assumes way too much about the audience. Graham or no Graham; Paul or no Paul.

DispensationalJim

July 26th, 2009, 8:35 am

I have no suggestions, as I am not a believer and wouldn't want to offer you ill advice.

The concept of getting people lost to teach them something is all together foreign to me. I would not want to lead someone astray or confuse them if I was trying to teach them something I thought was truth.

Also, unless the message is primarily for Christians already, I think it assumes way too much about the audience. Graham or no Graham; Paul or no Paul.

The concept that "all are sinners" and need a means of gaining forgiveness is a "parallel" truth found all through the Scriptures, but since many (maybe even most) do not consult the Bible for their guidance, then the idea is to show them that they do need a Savior -- that is, THE Saviour -- who has already paid for all those sins.

I'm not sure what you mean when you say that the message "assumes way too much about the audience." What do you think we are assuming?

DRS

July 26th, 2009, 8:51 am

I am not sure if you are not being serious, or if you are not being honest here.

It seems that you have completely ignored what the text says.

How do you get "You will get your reward also" from a verse that says we will be "caught up in the clouds" with Jesus?

I agree that being with Jesus will be a reward, but being taken alive to be with Jesus is what the rapture is.

I believe that this verse describes the rapture.

It means that those who he was writing to would get their reward but it would not be before those who were alseep in death awaiting his prescence, but unlike them, they would not have not wait because once the prescence started they would get it right away.

ralittlefield

July 26th, 2009, 9:02 am

It means that those who he was writing to would get their reward but it would not be before those who were alseep in death awaiting his prescence, but unlike them, they would not have not wait because once the prescence started they would get it right away.

I understand what you are saying, I just don't see how you get it from the way the text is written.

DRS

July 26th, 2009, 9:09 am

Because I look at everything else that is written regarding those who are being written about there.

ralittlefield

July 26th, 2009, 9:12 am

Because I look at everything else that is written regarding those who are being written about there.

But your conclussion is not in agreement with this text.

So perhaps you misunderstand some of the other things that you are reading?

DRS

July 26th, 2009, 9:21 am

But your conclussion is not in agreement with this text.

So perhaps you misunderstand some of the other things that you are reading?

No conclusion does not agree with what you decided to take from that one text, the question is does you view of that text agree with the rest of the written word?

DispensationalJim

July 26th, 2009, 10:56 pm

I didn't see any response from DRS about this scenerio which I posted last week:

And, Ralph, it sounds like it is not the same as when Jesus comes back to set up His Kingdom:
• Zech. 14:1 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.
Zech. 14:2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
Zech. 14:3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
Zech. 14:4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
Zech. 14:5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.
Zech. 14:6 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark:
Zech. 14:7 But it shall be one day which shall be known to the LORD, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light.
Zech. 14:8 And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.
Zech. 14:9 And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.

Edited to add:
• 2Pet. 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
• Rev. 17:14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.
• Rev. 19:16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.

So there is a Rapture (catching up -- as presented in 1Thess. 4) where Jesus comes and meets us in the air and takes us (the Body of Christ) to heaven.

Then there is The Second Coming (as shown above) when Christ shall set His feet on the Mount of Olives and then set up His Kingdom ON THE EARTH.

I don't see how anyone could construe those two very different events to be the same thing.

Any comments, DRS?

Finality

July 26th, 2009, 11:53 pm

...
I'm not sure what you mean when you say that the message "assumes way too much about the audience." What do you think we are assuming?
What Christians mean by sin, which is not what most other religions mean when they talk about transgressing divine law.

What σωτηρία (salvation) means to Christians in the first place.

Why anyone would need σωτηρία.

What 'glory of God' means. (I think that's what it said; I didn't go back and look for sure.)

What 'wages of sin' means.

Why death is not biological death (eventually, at least, if not instantaneous). In some societies, transgressing divine law is punished by execution, for example.

I think the primary assumption is, the reader knows who the authority is who is saying these things. Unless the reader would pick it up with a predisposition to take any old written word as 'gospel truth' (so to speak, no pun intended, I swear), there is nothing that lays a foundation for compelling the reader to accept any of it as truth.

I guess that's why I say that [edit: unless] the reader already understands the Christian meaning, which would necessarily mean that they've been more than cursorily exposed to Christianity, then the reader isn't going to get it.

This, of course, comes with the caveat that it's all my opinion and nothing more. Who knows, maybe I am way off? I have some substantial experience with intercultural communication, but I am by no means an expert.

DRS

July 27th, 2009, 8:10 am

I didn't see any response from DRS about this scenerio which I posted last week:

I don't see how anyone could construe those two very different events to be the same thing.

Any comments, DRS?

Funny Jesus gave us the sign of his prescence and we see it being fulfilled and yet there has been no rapture.

Koushi Shinigami

July 27th, 2009, 8:45 am

Beg your pardon, Koushi, I guess you haven't been reading Paul much, so look what he said:

Since Paul reiterated what Jesus said, you can now follow it?

Are you surprised, Koushi, that Paul would actually quote some words of Jesus? I think Paul quoted the Old Testament in almost every chapter he wrote.

I wasn't aware that the person of Jesus was directly quoted anywhere in the Old Testament. Please show me where the Old Testament has the words "Jesus said..."

DispensationalJim

July 27th, 2009, 7:18 pm

Funny Jesus gave us the sign of his prescence and we see it being fulfilled and yet there has been no rapture.

Please reveal the "sign" to us, DRS, since I guess a whole lot of us missed it.

DRS

July 27th, 2009, 7:23 pm

Please reveal the "sign" to us, DRS, since I guess a whole lot of us missed it.

Matthew 24:3*While he was sitting upon the Mount of Olives, the disciples approached him privately, saying: “Tell us, When will these things be, and what will be the sign of your presence and of the conclusion of the system of things?” 4*And in answer Jesus said to them: “Look out that nobody misleads YOU; 5*for many will come on the basis of my name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and will mislead many. 6*YOU are going to hear of wars and reports of wars; see that YOU are not terrified. For these things must take place, but the end is not yet. 7*“For nation will rise against nation and kingdom against kingdom, and there will be food shortages and earthquakes in one place after another. 8*All these things are a beginning of pangs of distress. 9*“Then people will deliver YOU up to tribulation and will kill YOU, and YOU will be objects of hatred by all the nations on account of my name. 10*Then, also, many will be stumbled and will betray one another and will hate one another. 11*And many false prophets will arise and mislead many; 12*and because of the increasing of lawlessness the love of the greater number will cool off. 13*But he that has endured to the end is the one that will be saved. 14*And this good news of the kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations; and then the end will come.

DispensationalJim

July 27th, 2009, 7:30 pm

Since Paul reiterated what Jesus said, you can now follow it?

Yes, as I have said, I will follow Paul as he follows Christ (1Cor. 11:1, etc.). Since Jesus was "under the law" in that dispensation, but Paul said we are under Grace in the dispensation of the Age of Grace...
• Rom. 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law. 15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.

I wasn't aware that the person of Jesus was directly quoted anywhere in the Old Testament. Please show me where the Old Testament has the words "Jesus said..."

Please forgive me, Koushi. I worded that very poorly. I did not mean to imply that Paul was quoting Jesus from the OT. I was just trying to point out that Paul quoted from the words of Jesus AND also from many of the other writers in the NT and in the OT.

DispensationalJim

July 27th, 2009, 7:50 pm

Matthew 24:3*While he was sitting upon the Mount of Olives, the disciples approached him privately, saying: “Tell us, When will these things be, and what will be the sign of your presence and of the conclusion of the system of things?” 4*And in answer Jesus said to them: “Look out that nobody misleads YOU; 5*for many will come on the basis of my name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and will mislead many. 6*YOU are going to hear of wars and reports of wars; see that YOU are not terrified. For these things must take place, but the end is not yet. 7*“For nation will rise against nation and kingdom against kingdom, and there will be food shortages and earthquakes in one place after another. 8*All these things are a beginning of pangs of distress. 9*“Then people will deliver YOU up to tribulation and will kill YOU, and YOU will be objects of hatred by all the nations on account of my name. 10*Then, also, many will be stumbled and will betray one another and will hate one another. 11*And many false prophets will arise and mislead many; 12*and because of the increasing of lawlessness the love of the greater number will cool off. 13*But he that has endured to the end is the one that will be saved. 14*And this good news of the kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations; and then the end will come.

So, DRS, exactly when did He come? I see a lot in that passage that IMO is yet to occur, not to mention the other signs you didn't quote that IMO have not happened yet, like here:
• Matt. 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place,...

and here...
• Matt. 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

So when was the sun darkened and all that other stuff? And when was the Abomination of Desolation? I sure must have missed that, too.

I think Peter was looking for all that, too:
• 2Pet. 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

And, BTW, I have read some books on the "preterist" view which I totally disagree with. So we need some serious historical facts here to support your claim.

DRS

July 27th, 2009, 8:01 pm

Many of those things are happening now which is the sign of his prescence.

The opening of all the seals in Revelation which correspond with this has not happened yet

DispensationalJim

July 27th, 2009, 11:17 pm

Many of those things are happening now which is the sign of his prescence.

The opening of all the seals in Revelation which correspond with this has not happened yet

I'm not saying that I don't believe you, DRS, but could you give us even just a little hint of some actual evidence, please?

==================================

If the LORD is present today in this world, where is He? And where are the twelve apostles? These verses don't seem to be fulfilled yet, do they?
• Jer. 3:17 At that time they shall call Jerusalem the throne of the LORD; and all the nations shall be gathered unto it, to the name of the LORD, to Jerusalem:...
• Matt. 19:28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
• Zech. 14:4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
• Zech. 14:16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.
• 1Tim. 6:14 That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukeable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ: 15 Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;
• Rev. 17:14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings:...
• Rev. 19:13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. ... 16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.

I believe the apostles probably had some of those first four quotes in mind when they asked Jesus this:
• Acts 1:6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel? 7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.

===================================

So come on, DRS, fill us in on some specific events to prove that His "presence" is here on the earth.

DRS

July 28th, 2009, 8:54 am

Angryamerican

July 28th, 2009, 11:39 am

Yes, I recall that you accepted the JW theory that Jesus was the Archangel Michael, but I thought that was rather well disproven.

But, the key IMO is, "Do you believe that Jesus Christ died for your sins?

I have to disagree with you,i did not get my view about Michael from JW's.

That view came to me through a very long study of the Angel of the LORD and Michael the Arch Angel.

I have spent a long time on the ot and it is very clear that Jesus was Michael before coming to the earth and taking the form of a man.

Disproven how ?:confused:

Yes Jesus did die for our sins.

Angryamerican

July 28th, 2009, 11:47 am

Angryamerican

July 28th, 2009, 11:50 am

Here is a favorite passage to show what the "Messiah" did for us:
Is. 53:1 Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed?
Is. 53:2 For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him.
Is. 53:3 He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.
Is. 53:4 ¶ Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.
Is. 53:5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.
Is. 53:6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
Is. 53:7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.
Is. 53:8 He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.
Is. 53:9 And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.
Is. 53:10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.
Is. 53:11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.
Is. 53:12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

============================

There are obviously many commentaries on this passage.

But here is one entitled "Isaiah 53:How Do the Rabbis Interpret This?"
http://www.hearnow.org/isa_com.html

Oh wait till you see the spin on this post Dj ,great post.

Angryamerican

July 28th, 2009, 11:55 am

I love to actually the context before it was massacred by the propogandists.

Isaiah 53 is clearly talking about Israel. It was one long prophesy. In the chapter right before it and after it, it clearly mentions Israel.

Israel was wounded for our transgressions ?

Isa 53:5 But He was wounded for our transgressions; He was bruised for our iniquities; the chastisement of our peace was upon Him; and with His wounds we ourselves are healed.

Angryamerican

July 28th, 2009, 12:01 pm

All great leaders have made mistakes in some of their choices of subordinates.

Meh.

Good. That should cut down your required reading quite a bit, to just 13. Less for you to lug around as well.

I have to disagree with you,Jesus knew exactly what he was doing and had his reasons for doing so otherwise he could not accomplish what he was suppose to accomplish.

Angryamerican

July 28th, 2009, 12:04 pm

We're going to base this on your suspicions? Why don't you bring in some data.

The fact that they have a second and third consequence indicates that the first punishment does not give changed behaviour in 100% of the cases.

You have liberal written all over you. :D

Angryamerican

July 28th, 2009, 12:07 pm

Please elaborate.

I do not see how that disproves the trinity.

How can one be greater or the head of the other if they are both God,very simple isn't it?

Angryamerican

July 28th, 2009, 12:12 pm

Angryamerican

July 28th, 2009, 12:13 pm

Can you show me someone who went to heaven without dying first?

If Jesus had to suffer and die why would anyone think the slaves of the master would get any different treatment

Very good point Daniel.

Angryamerican

July 28th, 2009, 12:20 pm

Please reveal the "sign" to us, DRS, since I guess a whole lot of us missed it.

Read signs of the time Dj in mat mark luke and john.:D

Koushi Shinigami

July 28th, 2009, 1:06 pm

You have liberal written all over you. :D

:)) :)) :)) :)) :)) :)) :))

Nope. A liberal would have said, 'since there is recividism, then the punishment must not work, so do away with punishment entirely'.

I look at it this way, take someone who steals -- for whatever reason -- chop off a hand, what good, honest labor are they now good for? By crippling them, are you now forcing them to continue to steal in order to survive?

If we're going to mutilate criminals, why not chop off the part of the body that caused them to steal? Hint, it ain't the hand. And the French invented a great tool to do it with. You'd save them a lot of suffering that way.

:razz:

Angryamerican

July 28th, 2009, 1:15 pm

:)) :)) :)) :)) :)) :)) :))

Nope. A liberal would have said, 'since there is recividism, then the punishment must not work, so do away with punishment entirely'.

I look at it this way, take someone who steals -- for whatever reason -- chop off a hand, what good, honest labor are they now good for? By crippling them, are you now forcing them to continue to steal in order to survive?

If we're going to mutilate criminals, why not chop off the part of the body that caused them to steal? Hint, it ain't the hand. And the French invented a great tool to do it with. You'd save them a lot of suffering that way.

:razz:

I am very sorry i realize how offensive of a judgment that was Whew!!:D

Koushi Shinigami

July 28th, 2009, 1:22 pm

I am very sorry i realize how offensive of a judgment that was Whew!!:D

30 lashes with a wet noodle.

Angryamerican

July 28th, 2009, 1:33 pm

I'm not entirely sure, but I believe Ezekiel went into without dying.

No man has ever entered heaven accept through a vision.

DispensationalJim

July 28th, 2009, 6:02 pm

I have to disagree with you,i did not get my view about Michael from JW's.

That view came to me through a very long study of the Angel of the LORD and Michael the Arch Angel.

I have spent a long time on the ot and it is very clear that Jesus was Michael before coming to the earth and taking the form of a man.

Disproven how ?:confused:

Yes Jesus did die for our sins.

I don't know of any other "group" that teaches that, and I also have done some long studies of the angels and did not come to that conclusion at all.

When I have more time, I'll dig up some of the posts done way back on this thread which IMO "disproved" that "theory."

I am thrilled that you acknowledge that "Christ died for our sins." :)

DispensationalJim

July 28th, 2009, 6:09 pm

We have seen the oubreak of WW1, followed by foodshortage and then we sew the Spanish flu and it has been going on non stop now for the last 95 years without any let up. In fact it has been getting worse.

Paul gave us wrote about what we would be seeing

2 Timothy 3:3 But know this, that in the last days critical times hard to deal with will be here. 2*For men will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, self-assuming, haughty, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, disloyal, 3*having no natural affection, not open to any agreement, slanderers, without self-control, fierce, without love of goodness, 4*betrayers, headstrong, puffed up [with pride], lovers of pleasures rather than lovers of God, 5*having a form of godly devotion but proving false to its power; and from these turn away

You can go into threads thoughout this board and see this all the time.

But I would like some specific fulfillments of specific verses that PROVE that Jesus is now reigning in this world as promised. I just don't see it...

For instance, show me where and when ANY of this happened, especially the highlighted portions:
• Is. 11:1 And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots:
Is. 11:2 And the spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD;
Is. 11:3 And shall make him of quick understanding in the fear of the LORD: and he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes, neither reprove after the hearing of his ears:
Is. 11:4 But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked.
Is. 11:5 And righteousness shall be the girdle of his loins, and faithfulness the girdle of his reins.
Is. 11:6 The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them.
Is. 11:7 And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox.
Is. 11:8 And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice’ den.
Is. 11:9 They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea.
Is. 11:10 ¶ And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious.
Is. 11:11 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall set his hand again the second time to recover the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria, and from Egypt, and from Pathros, and from Cush, and from Elam, and from Shinar, and from Hamath, and from the islands of the sea.
Is. 11:12 And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth.
Is. 11:13 The envy also of Ephraim shall depart, and the adversaries of Judah shall be cut off: Ephraim shall not envy Judah, and Judah shall not vex Ephraim.
Is. 11:14 But they shall fly upon the shoulders of the Philistines toward the west; they shall spoil them of the east together: they shall lay their hand upon Edom and Moab; and the children of Ammon shall obey them.
Is. 11:15 And the LORD shall utterly destroy the tongue of the Egyptian sea; and with his mighty wind shall he shake his hand over the river, and shall smite it in the seven streams, and make men go over dryshod.
Is. 11:16 And there shall be an highway for the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria; like as it was to Israel in the day that he came up out of the land of Egypt.

DispensationalJim

July 28th, 2009, 6:13 pm

No man has ever entered heaven accept through a vision.

Here is one:
• 2Kings 2:1 And it came to pass, when the LORD would take up Elijah into heaven by a whirlwind, that Elijah went with Elisha from Gilgal.
2Kings 2:2 And Elijah said unto Elisha, Tarry here, I pray thee; for the LORD hath sent me to Bethel. And Elisha said unto him, As the LORD liveth, and as thy soul liveth, I will not leave thee. So they went down to Bethel.
2Kings 2:3 And the sons of the prophets that were at Bethel came forth to Elisha, and said unto him, Knowest thou that the LORD will take away thy master from thy head to day? And he said, Yea, I know it; hold ye your peace.
2Kings 2:4 And Elijah said unto him, Elisha, tarry here, I pray thee; for the LORD hath sent me to Jericho. And he said, As the LORD liveth, and as thy soul liveth, I will not leave thee. So they came to Jericho.
2Kings 2:5 And the sons of the prophets that were at Jericho came to Elisha, and said unto him, Knowest thou that the LORD will take away thy master from thy head to day? And he answered, Yea, I know it; hold ye your peace.
2Kings 2:6 And Elijah said unto him, Tarry, I pray thee, here; for the LORD hath sent me to Jordan. And he said, As the LORD liveth, and as thy soul liveth, I will not leave thee. And they two went on.
2Kings 2:7 And fifty men of the sons of the prophets went, and stood to view afar off: and they two stood by Jordan.
2Kings 2:8 And Elijah took his mantle, and wrapped it together, and smote the waters, and they were divided hither and thither, so that they two went over on dry ground.
2Kings 2:9 ¶ And it came to pass, when they were gone over, that Elijah said unto Elisha, Ask what I shall do for thee, before I be taken away from thee. And Elisha said, I pray thee, let a double portion of thy spirit be upon me.
2Kings 2:10 And he said, Thou hast asked a hard thing: nevertheless, if thou see me when I am taken from thee, it shall be so unto thee; but if not, it shall not be so.
2Kings 2:11 And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.
2Kings 2:12 And Elisha saw it, and he cried, My father, my father, the chariot of Israel, and the horsemen thereof. And he saw him no more: and he took hold of his own clothes, and rent them in two pieces.
2Kings 2:13 ¶ He took up also the mantle of Elijah that fell from him, and went back, and stood by the bank of Jordan;

DispensationalJim

July 28th, 2009, 6:15 pm

Read signs of the time Dj in mat mark luke and john.:D

"Been there, done that, and bought the T-shirt" as they say, but still don't see any fulfillment of the coming Kingdom.

DRS

July 28th, 2009, 6:24 pm

DRS

July 28th, 2009, 6:25 pm

What were the first things Jesus was going to do when he begun to rule?

DispensationalJim

July 28th, 2009, 7:19 pm

Elijah did not go to heaven there is a letter from him years later

John 3:13*Moreover, no man has ascended into heaven but he that descended from heaven, the Son of man.

Seems no one went into heaven

DRS, could you please give some evidence to support the "timing" of that letter from Elijah?

And how do you then explain the passage from 2Kings 2? Does it say somewhere that it was a vision?

DRS

July 28th, 2009, 7:30 pm

DRS, could you please give some evidence to support the "timing" of that letter from Elijah?

And how do you then explain the passage from 2Kings 2? Does it say somewhere that it was a vision?

Heavens also refers to atmosphere

Elijah ascends during the rule of Jehoram in Israel by this time the kingdom was split in 2nd Chronicles we see a letter to king
King Jehoram of Judah

Elijah had served in Israel and this was not Elishas territory and we Elijah in Judah

DispensationalJim

July 28th, 2009, 7:37 pm

What were the first things Jesus was going to do when he begun to rule?

• Matt. 25:31 ¶ When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
Matt. 25:32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
Matt. 25:33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
Matt. 25:34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

Did this happen yet, DRS?

DispensationalJim

July 28th, 2009, 7:39 pm

Heavens also refers to atmosphere

Elijah ascends during the rule of Jehoram in Israel by this time the kingdom was split in 2nd Chronicles we see a letter to king
King Jehoram of Judah

Elijah had served in Israel and this was not Elishas territory and we Elijah in Judah

Sorry, that is a little too vague for me, DRS. Could you give some specific verses, please?

DRS

July 28th, 2009, 7:40 pm

• Matt. 25:31 ¶ When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
Matt. 25:32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
Matt. 25:33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
Matt. 25:34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

Did this happen yet, DRS?

First thing that happens

(Revelation 12:1-17) And a great sign was seen in heaven, a woman arrayed with the sun, and the moon was beneath her feet, and on her head was a crown of twelve stars, 2*and she was pregnant. And she cries out in her pains and in her agony to give birth. 3*And another sign was seen in heaven, and, look! a great fiery-colored dragon, with seven heads and ten horns and upon its heads seven diadems; 4*and its tail drags a third of the stars of heaven, and it hurled them down to the earth. And the dragon kept standing before the woman who was about to give birth, that, when she did give birth, it might devour her child. 5*And she gave birth to a son, a male, who is to shepherd all the nations with an iron rod. And her child was caught away to God and to his throne. 6*And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place prepared by God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and sixty days. 7*And war broke out in heaven: Mi′cha‧el and his angels battled with the dragon, and the dragon and its angels battled 8*but it did not prevail, neither was a place found for them any longer in heaven. 9*So down the great dragon was hurled, the original serpent, the one called Devil and Satan, who is misleading the entire inhabited earth; he was hurled down to the earth, and his angels were hurled down with him. 10*And I heard a loud voice in heaven say: “Now have come to pass the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God and the authority of his Christ, because the accuser of our brothers has been hurled down, who accuses them day and night before our God! 11*And they conquered him because of the blood of the Lamb and because of the word of their witnessing, and they did not love their souls even in the face of death. 12*On this account be glad, YOU heavens and YOU who reside in them! Woe for the earth and for the sea, because the Devil has come down to YOU, having great anger, knowing he has a short period of time.”

Birth of the kingdom, the devil is cast from heaven and woe is pronounced for the Earth

DispensationalJim

July 28th, 2009, 11:31 pm

First thing that happens

(Revelation 12:1-17) And a great sign was seen in heaven, a woman arrayed with the sun, and the moon was beneath her feet, and on her head was a crown of twelve stars, 2*and she was pregnant. And she cries out in her pains and in her agony to give birth. 3*And another sign was seen in heaven, and, look! a great fiery-colored dragon, with seven heads and ten horns and upon its heads seven diadems; 4*and its tail drags a third of the stars of heaven, and it hurled them down to the earth. And the dragon kept standing before the woman who was about to give birth, that, when she did give birth, it might devour her child. 5*And she gave birth to a son, a male, who is to shepherd all the nations with an iron rod. And her child was caught away to God and to his throne. 6*And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place prepared by God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and sixty days. 7*And war broke out in heaven: Mi′cha‧el and his angels battled with the dragon, and the dragon and its angels battled 8*but it did not prevail, neither was a place found for them any longer in heaven. 9*So down the great dragon was hurled, the original serpent, the one called Devil and Satan, who is misleading the entire inhabited earth; he was hurled down to the earth, and his angels were hurled down with him. 10*And I heard a loud voice in heaven say: “Now have come to pass the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God and the authority of his Christ, because the accuser of our brothers has been hurled down, who accuses them day and night before our God! 11*And they conquered him because of the blood of the Lamb and because of the word of their witnessing, and they did not love their souls even in the face of death. 12*On this account be glad, YOU heavens and YOU who reside in them! Woe for the earth and for the sea, because the Devil has come down to YOU, having great anger, knowing he has a short period of time.”

Birth of the kingdom, the devil is cast from heaven and woe is pronounced for the Earth

Wow, DRS, IMO you just "muddied the waters" some more.

Let me see if I have this right... In Rev. 12, Satan is cast out of Heaven, and he comes down to the earth and you claim that the Kingdom is then born???

And yet, for at least seven more years (over the next 7 chapters of The Book of The Revelation, chapters 13-19), there is Great Tribulation on the earth -- as Daniel and Jesus promised -- because Satan (the Dragon) and the Beast and the False Prophet are running loose over the earth and the angels are pouring out the wrath of God. And yet you say that is the birth of the kingdom?

======================================

In chapter 20, Satan and his gang are finally thrown into the Lake of Fire for a thousand years. Then IMO the kingdom for Israel is born:
• Rev. 20:1 ¶ And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
Rev. 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
Rev. 20:3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

This IMO is a picture of the beginning of the Kingdom:
Rev. 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them (remember Matt. 18:28?), and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Rev. 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
Rev. 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
Rev. 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
Rev. 20:8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
Rev. 20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
Rev. 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
Rev. 20:11 ¶ And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
Rev. 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Rev. 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
Rev. 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev. 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

So, we have just seen a FINAL JUDGEMENT and the end of the thousand years reign.

======================================

But, then I see the final "forever" Kingdom begin in Rev. 21:
• Rev. 21:1 ¶ And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
Rev. 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
Rev. 21:3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
Rev. 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
Rev. 21:5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
Rev. 21:6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.
Rev. 21:7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.
Rev. 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death...

===============================

Then we see the ultimate ending in Rev. 22:
• Rev. 22:1 ¶ And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.
Rev. 22:2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.
Rev. 22:3 And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him:
Rev. 22:4 And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads.
Rev. 22:5 And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever. ...

THE END... OR MAYBE WE SHOULD SAY, "THE BEGINNING!" :)

ralittlefield

July 29th, 2009, 5:36 am

There is only one God right weel apparently God is the head of Jesus and since God is the head of Jesus Jesus is not God

I disagree.

I see no reason why members of the Trinity could not allow one member to be head.

DRS

July 29th, 2009, 10:58 am

I disagree.

I see no reason why members of the Trinity could not allow one member to be head.

If one is allowing another then there is more than one Almighty and it ignores the fact the Father submits things to the son but is not Himself submitted to the son but the son is submitted to the Father

DRS

July 29th, 2009, 11:00 am

Wow, DRS, IMO you just "muddied the waters" some more.

Let me see if I have this right... In Rev. 12, Satan is cast out of Heaven, and he comes down to the earth and you claim that the Kingdom is then born???

Not here on Earth just in heaven

DRS

July 29th, 2009, 11:01 am

In chapter 20, Satan and his gang are finally thrown into the Lake of Fire for a thousand years. Then IMO the kingdom for Israel is born:
• Rev. 20:1 ¶ And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
Rev. 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
Rev. 20:3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

Not into the lake of fire yet, just imprisoned, that means the 1000 years without his influence on the Earth and the Earth gets to start enjoying the benefits of the kingdom.

Satan is released again after the 1000 years another period of testing and then he is destroyed by being cast into the lake of fire.

ralittlefield

July 29th, 2009, 11:08 am

If one is allowing another then there is more than one Almighty and it ignores the fact the Father submits things to the son but is not Himself submitted to the son but the son is submitted to the Father

Not so.

Three totally equal people can form a group, and appoint one as head. They are equal and can make and/or change that decision.

Why can it not be so with the Trinity?

DRS

July 29th, 2009, 11:16 am

Not so.

Three totally equal people can form a group, and appoint one as head. They are equal and can make and/or change that decision.

Why can it not be so with the Trinity?

So you are back to three persons who are God

Now you are saying God is a committee

DispensationalJim

July 29th, 2009, 4:44 pm

Not into the lake of fire yet, just imprisoned, that means the 1000 years without his influence on the Earth and the Earth gets to start enjoying the benefits of the kingdom.

Satan is released again after the 1000 years another period of testing and then he is destroyed by being cast into the lake of fire.

How can Satan and his angels be "imprisoned" in the Lake of Fire for 1000 years, and then be "destroyed" by the same Lake of Fire? Where do you find those words? I don't see them in any translation.

But I do see this verse in every translation, even in the New World (JW) translation!
• Rev. 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

DispensationalJim

July 29th, 2009, 4:52 pm

Your premise is corrupt, spiritually speaking; no one allows the Father to do anything. The Father is the head of the Son, not by election, but because He is the most high God and Supreme Authority. How do I know God is the Head and most high?...

The Trinity doctrine must be removed from the Church, because Scripture points to a hierarchy.

Thank you for your opinion, Feet2. We have covered and dealt with all of the verses you cited several times in this thread and showed that your conclusion is invalid, so if you don't have time to "catch up" on this long thread, we'll dig some of those answers up for you since -- as we see it -- you are absolutely incorrect.

And, BTW, using the word "corrupt" associated with our beliefs might get you in trouble on here. Just a fair warning. One of the moderators defintely believes Jesus is God Almighty, so you might want to "tone down" your rhetoric a tad. :)

DRS

July 29th, 2009, 5:44 pm

How can Satan and his angels be "imprisoned" in the Lake of Fire for 1000 years, and then be "destroyed" by the same Lake of Fire? Where do you find those words? I don't see them in any translation.

But I do see this verse in every translation, even in the New World (JW) translation!
• Rev. 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

They are not imprisoned in a lake of fire, they are put in an abyss.

20 And I saw an angel coming down out of heaven with the key of the abyss and a great chain in his hand. 2*And he seized the dragon, the original serpent, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years. 3*And he hurled him into the abyss and shut [it] and sealed [it] over him, that he might not mislead the nations anymore until the thousand years were ended. After these things he must be let loose for a little while.

Then he is released after the 1000 years then destroyed.

ralittlefield

July 29th, 2009, 7:02 pm

So you are back to three persons who are God

Now you are saying God is a committee

Yes, three persons who are one God.

DRS

July 29th, 2009, 8:02 pm

Yes, three persons who are one God.

A triad who make up your god got it.

DispensationalJim

July 29th, 2009, 9:13 pm

They are not imprisoned in a lake of fire, they are put in an abyss.

20 And I saw an angel coming down out of heaven with the key of the abyss and a great chain in his hand. 2*And he seized the dragon, the original serpent, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years. 3*And he hurled him into the abyss and shut [it] and sealed [it] over him, that he might not mislead the nations anymore until the thousand years were ended. After these things he must be let loose for a little while.

Then he is released after the 1000 years then destroyed.

My Bible says "the bottomless pit" but I still have a problem with your theory.
• Rev. 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
Rev. 19:21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.
Rev. 20:1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
Rev. 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
Rev. 20:3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

Then we come to the verse I previously quoted:
• Rev. 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Now, DRS, if they (the beast and the false prophet) were destroyed as you suggest, how can they still be there 1000 years later? And how can they be tormented day and night FOREVER AND EVER???

And I still can't find where and when they are destroyed. Please show me the word destroyed somewhere in that passage.

DRS

July 30th, 2009, 9:58 am

My Bible says "the bottomless pit" but I still have a problem with your theory.
• Rev. 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
Rev. 19:21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.
Rev. 20:1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
Rev. 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
Rev. 20:3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

Then we come to the verse I previously quoted:
• Rev. 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Now, DRS, if they (the beast and the false prophet) were destroyed as you suggest, how can they still be there 1000 years later? And how can they be tormented day and night FOREVER AND EVER???

And I still can't find where and when they are destroyed. Please show me the word destroyed somewhere in that passage.

Satan is not the wild beast or the false prophet these are symbolic of tools used by Satan, they symbolize world governments and false religion. They are destroyed but for the rest of time we can read of their demise.

Jude 7*So too Sod′om and Go‧mor′rah and the cities about them, after they in the same manner as the foregoing ones had committed fornication excessively and gone out after flesh for unnatural use, are placed before [us] as a [warning] example by undergoing the judicial punishment of everlasting fire.

These cities are not still burning but will still read of their burning and the judgement God brought against them.

DispensationalJim

July 30th, 2009, 6:59 pm

Satan is not the wild beast or the false prophet these are symbolic of tools used by Satan, they symbolize world governments and false religion. They are destroyed but for the rest of time we can read of their demise.

Jude 7*So too Sod′om and Go‧mor′rah and the cities about them, after they in the same manner as the foregoing ones had committed fornication excessively and gone out after flesh for unnatural use, are placed before [us] as a [warning] example by undergoing the judicial punishment of everlasting fire.

These cities are not still burning but will still read of their burning and the judgement God brought against them.

Once again, DRS, please give us some evidence that the beast and the false prophet are symbolic rather than literal beings, just as we know the great dragon was revealed to be Satan himself in Rev. 12:9.

And I believe your comparison of the burning of Sodom and Gomorrah to the burning of the Lake of Fire falls short, but I'm out of time so I'll get back to you more on that.

DispensationalJim

July 30th, 2009, 7:03 pm

I cannot say someone's thinking is corrupt, but if I am invalid, then my position is corrupted. You and the moderator should not be so sensitive, because one of the many connotations for the word corrupt includes to alter from the original or correct form or version. So I think I have use the word appropriately and therefore continue to believe that those that support Jesus is God is corrupt, changing the original version of Jesus from an Emissary that is subjected to the Most High God to being God. As far as the warning, it is also corrupt, because it is your misinterpretation of the word corrupt that caused you to warn me.

Again, the premise is corrupt. Jesus was sent into the world. Who can order God around, sending Him where he wants Him to go? No one! To believe God is allowed to do something or can be sent is a corruption of Scripture, which then leads into a corrupted belief, changed from its original.

Once again, we have dealt with all of that on this thread, but you apparently haven't read it all, so when we have time, we will deal with what I consider to be errors in your understanding of who God is, etc..

I assume you do not believe John 1:1, Phil. 2:5-9, etc. as Jesus is presented in most Bibles.

DRS

July 30th, 2009, 7:08 pm

Once again, DRS, please give us some evidence that the beast and the false prophet are symbolic rather than literal beings, just as we know the great dragon was revealed to be Satan himself in Rev. 12:9.

And I believe your comparison of the burning of Sodom and Gomorrah to the burning of the Lake of Fire falls short, but I'm out of time so I'll get back to you more on that.

What do the wild beasts picture in Daniel

In Revelation 13:11 is the lamb really a lamb

DRS

July 30th, 2009, 7:09 pm

Once again, we have dealt with all of that on this thread, but you apparently haven't read it all, so when we have time, we will deal with what I consider to be errors in your understanding of who God is, etc..

I assume you do not believe John 1:1, Phil. 2:5-9, etc. as Jesus is presented in most Bibles.

If you can ignore the tranlsational issues there then anyone should feel free to ignore posts

DispensationalJim

July 30th, 2009, 8:58 pm

If you can ignore the tranlsational issues there then anyone should feel free to ignore posts

Just because I disagree with your conclusions about the manuscript evidence does not mean I have ignored the translational issue. I have taken great effort to investigate the various claims concerning the Vaticanus and Sanaiticus texts from which most of the "modern" NT versions were taken, and I determined that IMO they were corrupted. I have given web sites to support that determination, but IMO you have ignored them.

DispensationalJim

July 30th, 2009, 9:22 pm

What do the wild beasts picture in Daniel

In Revelation 13:11 is the lamb really a lamb

• Dan. 7:17 These great beasts, which are four, ARE FOUR KINGS, WHICH shall arise out of the earth.

• Dan. 7:24 And the ten horns out of this kingdom ARE TEN KINGS THAT shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.

Daniel gets very specific (and IMO quite literal) in such verses as these:
• Dan. 8:20 The ram which thou sawest having TWO HORNS ARE the kings of Media and Persia. 21 And the rough goat IS THE KING OF GRECIA: AND THE GREAT HORN THAT IS BETWEEN HIS EYES IS the first king.

=============================

There is no actual lamb in this verse, only a beast that is "like a lamb."
• Rev. 13:11 And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.

Maybe you meant something else...

However, the "Lamb of God" is a title given of course to the Saviour of the World, Jesus Christ.
• John 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

In a very real sense, Jesus became the sacrificial lamb for all of our sins:
• Rev. 5:12 Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.
• Rev. 7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
• Rev. 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
• Rev. 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
• Rev. 17:14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.
• Rev. 21:14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb. ... 22 And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it. 23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.
• Rev. 22:1 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb. ... 3 And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him:

DispensationalJim

July 31st, 2009, 2:23 am

Is this a trick?
2 Cor. 4:4 – "Christ who is the image of God."
Colossians 1:1 – "He (Jesus) is the image of the invisible God."

And now Philippians 2:6, from the Complete Jewish Bible, "Though he was in the form of God.

If Christ is in the image of God, or as your evidence states, form of God, then how can Christ be the original, if he is the image of, or form of God, then he was "created", molded, shaped, made in the image of, formed, from the blueprint which is the Most High God.

Think of Plato's forms and the Allegory of the Cave. The men see a shadow and they call the shadow a name, for example, "I see a book on the wall." No, what they see is a shadow. Same principle when it comes to this idea about Christ being God; men read about Christ. a form of God, and say they see God, No! They see an image of God, but not God. God is the original form from where all humans are derived from; He's the original, and the rest of us humans, including Christ, spawn from the original.

God is unchangeable, but the verse you offered speaks of several changes: but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men.Since men cannot look upon God, who is unchangeable, then His presence amongst men would of rendered judgement against men and condemned us all, so he sent a form of God, one made in his image and formed in his likeness...

Remember the verse, Let us make man in Our image, the use of the word "us" do not give a clue that there's more than one, yet since most Christians are not polytheistic, then it is difficult to conclude that there are three Gods, one of which is, by committee, the head of the others. Trinitarians always say, "Three-Persons in one," but since we are talking about God, let us say, Three Gods in one. They don't say it because it is evidence that their viewpoint is polytheistic.

I haven't had time to look up the past posts, so let me say "off the top of my head" that in the first place you have "mis-used" the definition of the VERB of the word "form," instead of as a noum, which was IMO its use in those verses. IMO, as a noun, "form" would be defiined as an "external appearance..." and as a noun, "image" would be a "mirrored representation...", so I think you need to rethink that view by using the proper definitions.

Secondly, if Jesus was "in the form of God" in His external appearance, and He was not a man -- since He then MADE HIMSELF INTO A MAN -- so what was He before He became a man? DRS and AA insist He was the Angel Michael, but we have been over that many times, and it just can't work IMO.

Thirdly, since Jesus MADE EVERYTHING THAT WAS MADE IN THE BEGINNING (according to John 1:3,10; Eph. 3:9; Col. 1:16;Heb. 1:2,8;Rev. 4:11, etc.) then how could He be anyone other than God? And as has been mentioned many times on here, since He created EVERYTHING THAT WAS MADE, how could He Himself have been created? Do we not all agree that God could not create Himself?

To give you some more to think about, here is a list from Fire Watch (the moderator I mentioned) of the characteristics of Jesus and God which just happen to match nicely.

=========================================

Jehovah

1 Almighty--Genesis 17:1
2 I AM--Exodus3:14-16
3 Rock--Psalm 18:2; 28:1
4 Horn of Salvation--Psalm 18:2
5 Shepherd--Psalm 23:1; Isaiah 40:10-11
6 King of Glory--Psalm 24:7-10
7 LightPsalm--27:1; Isaiah 60:19
8 Salvation--Psalm 27:1; Isaiah 12:2
9 Lord of lords--Psalm 136:3
10 Holy OneIsaiah--12:6
11 Lawgiver--Isaiah 33:22
12 Judge--Isaiah 33:22
13 First and Last--Isaiah 41:4; 44:6; 48:12
14 Only Savior--Isaiah 43:11; 45:21; 60:16
15 Giver of Spiritual Water--Isaiah 44:3
16 King of Israel--Isaiah 44:6
17 Only Creator--Isaiah 44:24; 45:8; 48:13
18 Only Just God--Isaiah 45:21
19 Redeemer--Isaiah 54:5; 60:16

Jesus

1. Almighty--Revelation 1:8
2. I am--John 8:
3. Rock--I Corinthians 10:4
4. Horn of Salvation--Luke 1:69
5. Good Shepherd, Great Shepherd, Chief Shepherd--Hebrews 13:20; I Peter 5:4
6. Lord of Glory--I Corinthians 2:8
7. Light--John 1:4-9; John 8:12; Revelation 21:23
8. Only Salvation--Acts 4:10-12
9. Lord of lords--Revelation 19:16
10. Holy One--Acts 2:27
11. Testator of the First Testament (the Law)--Hebrews 9:14-17
12. Judge--Micah 5:1; Acts 10:42
13. Alpha and Omega, Beginning and Ending, First and Last--Revelation 1:8; 22:13
14. Savior--Titus 2:13; 3:6
15. Giver of Living Water--John 4:10-14; 7:38-39
16. King of Israel, King of kings--John 1:49; Revelation 19:16
17. Creator of everything--John 1:3; Colossians 1:16
18. Just One--Acts 7:52
19. Redeemer--Galatians 3:13; Revelation 5:9

and more...

Name

1. Jehovah-jireh (provider)
2. Jehovah-rapha (healer)
3. Jehovah-nissi (banner, victory)
4. Jehovah-m'kaddesh (sanctifier)
5. Jehovah-shalom (peace)
6. Jehovah-sabaoth (Lord of hosts)
7. Jehovah-elyon (most high)
8. Jehovah-raah (shepherd)
9. Jehovah-hoseenu (maker)
10. Jehovah-tsidkenu (Righteousness)
11. Jehovah-shammah (present)

Compare to what was said of Jesus..

1. Provider--Hebrews 10:10-12
2. Healer--James 5:14-15
3. Victory--I Corinthians 15:57
4. Sanctifier--Ephesians 5:26
5. Peace--John 14:27
6. Lord of Hosts--James 5:4-7
7. Most High--Luke 1:32, 76, 78
8. Shepherd--John 10:11
9. Maker--John 1:3
10. Righteousness--I Corinthians 1:30
11. Ever Present One--Matthew 28:20

===================================

I need to call it a night... Good night, all.

DRS

July 31st, 2009, 8:05 am

Why do you ignore the fact that others are called saviours in the OT

Jesus is never called the Almighty

DRS

July 31st, 2009, 8:08 am

• Dan. 7:17 These great beasts, which are four, ARE FOUR KINGS, WHICH shall arise out of the earth.

• Dan. 7:24 And the ten horns out of this kingdom ARE TEN KINGS THAT shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.

Daniel gets very specific (and IMO quite literal) in such verses as these:
• Dan. 8:20 The ram which thou sawest having TWO HORNS ARE the kings of Media and Persia. 21 And the rough goat IS THE KING OF GRECIA: AND THE GREAT HORN THAT IS BETWEEN HIS EYES IS the first king.

=============================

There is no actual lamb in this verse, only a beast that is "like a lamb."
• Rev. 13:11 And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.

Maybe you meant something else...

However, the "Lamb of God" is a title given of course to the Saviour of the World, Jesus Christ.
• John 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

In a very real sense, Jesus became the sacrificial lamb for all of our sins:
• Rev. 5:12 Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.
• Rev. 7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
• Rev. 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
• Rev. 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
• Rev. 17:14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.
• Rev. 21:14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb. ... 22 And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it. 23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.
• Rev. 22:1 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb. ... 3 And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him:

So wild beasts are governments, so what you see already there in the fire symbolizes the very things man has set up to rule one another. which will never happen again.

That one that stands up and looks like the lamb is the false prophet. it tries to look like and act like that which God sent but as you can see from reading it is not.

DispensationalJim

July 31st, 2009, 8:28 am

Why do you ignore the fact that others are called saviours in the OT

Jesus is never called the Almighty

Why, DRS, do you continue to ignore the word "THE" which is found with the word "Saviour" when it refers to Jesus Christ (and to God, BTW):

• Is. 45:15 Verily thou art a God that hidest thyself, O God of Israel, the Saviour.
• John 4:42 And said unto the woman, Now we believe, not because of thy saying: for we have heard him ourselves, and know that this is indeed the Christ, the Saviour of the world.
• Eph. 5:23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.
• Phil. 3:20 For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ:
• 1Tim. 4:10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.
• 1John 4:14 And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world.

==================================

And, as we have said repeatedly, Jesus is THE Alpha and Omega, and He is called THE Almighty here:
• Rev. 1:8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

Must we show the evidence that Jesus is THE Alpha and Omega again?

DispensationalJim

July 31st, 2009, 8:37 am

So wild beasts are governments, so what you see already there in the fire symbolizes the very things man has set up to rule one another. which will never happen again.

That one that stands up and looks like the lamb is the false prophet. it tries to look like and act like that which God sent but as you can see from reading it is not.

Where does it say "governments"? As I see it, it says that EACH beast is a SPECIFIC KING of a SPECIFIC country, in other words, it is a SPECIFIC PERSON.

The one that was "like a lamb" also "spake as a dragon" and IMO was also a SPECIFIC PERSON, was it not?
• Rev. 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

DRS

July 31st, 2009, 8:49 am

Why, DRS, do you continue to ignore the word "THE" which is found with the word "Saviour" when it refers to Jesus Christ (and to God, BTW):

• Is. 45:15 Verily thou art a God that hidest thyself, O God of Israel, the Saviour.
• John 4:42 And said unto the woman, Now we believe, not because of thy saying: for we have heard him ourselves, and know that this is indeed the Christ, the Saviour of the world.
• Eph. 5:23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.
• Phil. 3:20 For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ:
• 1Tim. 4:10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.
• 1John 4:14 And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world.

==================================

And, as we have said repeatedly, Jesus is THE Alpha and Omega, and He is called THE Almighty here:
• Rev. 1:8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

Must we show the evidence that Jesus is THE Alpha and Omega again?

Nehemiah 9:27*For this you gave them into the hand of their adversaries, who kept causing them distress; but in the time of their distress they would cry out to you, and you yourself would hear from the very heavens; and in accord with your abundant mercy you would give them saviors who would save them out of the hand of their adversaries.
2 Kings 13:. 5*Consequently Jehovah gave Israel a savior, so that they came out from under the hand of Syria, and the sons of Israel continued to dwell in their homes as formerly

Judges 3:9*And the sons of Israel began to call to Jehovah for aid. Then Jehovah raised a savior up for the sons of Israel that he might save them, Oth′ni‧el the son of Ke′naz, the younger brother of Ca′leb
15*And the sons of Israel began to call to Jehovah for aid. So Jehovah raised up for them a savior, E′hud the son of Ge′ra, a Ben′ja‧mite, a left-handed man. In time the sons of Israel sent tribute by his hand to Eg′lon the king of Mo′ab.

So we see like Jesus there are those who God uses as saviours so that they to rightly can be called saviours.

The person I see speaking in Revelation 1:8 is the Almighty, the person who gave Jesus the Revelation

1 A revelation by Jesus Christ, which God gave him, to show his slaves the things that must shortly take place. And he sent forth his angel and presented [it] in signs through him to his slave John, 2*who bore witness to the word God gave and to the witness Jesus Christ gave, even to all the things he saw. 3*Happy is he who reads aloud and those who hear the words of this prophecy, and who observe the things written in it; for the appointed time is near.

DispensationalJim

July 31st, 2009, 10:41 am

Nehemiah 9:27*For this you gave them into the hand of their adversaries, who kept causing them distress; but in the time of their distress they would cry out to you, and you yourself would hear from the very heavens; and in accord with your abundant mercy you would give them saviors who would save them out of the hand of their adversaries.
2 Kings 13:. 5*Consequently Jehovah gave Israel a savior, so that they came out from under the hand of Syria, and the sons of Israel continued to dwell in their homes as formerly

Judges 3:9*And the sons of Israel began to call to Jehovah for aid. Then Jehovah raised a savior up for the sons of Israel that he might save them, Oth′ni‧el the son of Ke′naz, the younger brother of Ca′leb
15*And the sons of Israel began to call to Jehovah for aid. So Jehovah raised up for them a savior, E′hud the son of Ge′ra, a Ben′ja‧mite, a left-handed man. In time the sons of Israel sent tribute by his hand to Eg′lon the king of Mo′ab.

So we see like Jesus there are those who God uses as saviours so that they to rightly can be called saviours.

But, DRS, none of those "saviours" are like Jesus. That, IMO, is an insult to THE ONE AND ONLY SAVIOUR who is Jesus Christ. That is like comparing Jesus, the Saviour, to a relief pitcher in a baseball game who comes into the game to try to "save" it. That pitcher is not paying for anyone's sins as Jesus paid for the sins of the world, so there is actually no valid comparison.

In the OT, there were many who worshipped "other gods" but none of those other gods was THE GOD.

As I said before, THE GOD is THE SAVIOUR. The word "the" represents "one and only one."

The person I see speaking in Revelation 1:8 is the Almighty, the person who gave Jesus the Revelation

1 A revelation by Jesus Christ, which God gave him, to show his slaves the things that must shortly take place. And he sent forth his angel and presented [it] in signs through him to his slave John, 2*who bore witness to the word God gave and to the witness Jesus Christ gave, even to all the things he saw. 3*Happy is he who reads aloud and those who hear the words of this prophecy, and who observe the things written in it; for the appointed time is near.

OK, DRS, here we go again:

First, WHO IS "THE FIRST AND THE LAST"??
• Rev. 1:8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.
• Rev. 1:11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last:...
• Rev. 1:18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.
• Rev. 2:8 And unto the angel of the church in Smyrna write; These things saith the first and the last, which was dead, and is alive;
• Rev. 21:6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.
• Rev. 22:13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.

Those verses speak of "THE first and the last," therefore there is only ONE.

In Rev. 1:11 and 22:13, "THE first and the last" IS Alpha and Omega.

In Rev. 1:8, "THE Alpha and Omega" IS THE ALMIGHTY.

In Rev. 1:18 and 2:8 "THE first and the last" WAS DEAD and is alive.

Who else could that possibly be speaking of but JESUS CHRIST??

DRS

July 31st, 2009, 4:46 pm

But, DRS, none of those "saviours" are like Jesus. That, IMO, is an insult to THE ONE AND ONLY SAVIOUR who is Jesus Christ. That is like comparing Jesus, the Saviour, to a relief pitcher in a baseball game who comes into the game to try to "save" it. That pitcher is not paying for anyone's sins as Jesus paid for the sins of the world, so there is actually no valid comparison.

In the OT, there were many who worshipped "other gods" but none of those other gods was THE GOD.

As I said before, THE GOD is THE SAVIOUR. The word "the" represents "one and only one."

OK, DRS, here we go again:

First, WHO IS "THE FIRST AND THE LAST"??
• Rev. 1:8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.
• Rev. 1:11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last:...
• Rev. 1:18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.
• Rev. 2:8 And unto the angel of the church in Smyrna write; These things saith the first and the last, which was dead, and is alive;
• Rev. 21:6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.
• Rev. 22:13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.

Those verses speak of "THE first and the last," therefore there is only ONE.

In Rev. 1:11 and 22:13, "THE first and the last" IS Alpha and Omega.

In Rev. 1:8, "THE Alpha and Omega" IS THE ALMIGHTY.

In Rev. 1:18 and 2:8 "THE first and the last" WAS DEAD and is alive.

Who else could that possibly be speaking of but JESUS CHRIST??

Take your feelings of insult up with God who had the OT prefigurments. I know you like to treat the bible like the OT and NT are two different books but it does not work that way.

Revelation 1:11*saying: “What you see write in a scroll and send it to the seven congregations, in Eph′e‧sus and in Smyr′na and in Per′ga‧mum and in Thy‧a‧ti′ra and in Sar′dis and in Philadelphia and in La‧o‧di‧ce′a

Jesus the first one raised from the dead to heavenly life by God and will be the last since the rest are raised by Jesus.

DispensationalJim

July 31st, 2009, 5:53 pm

So you are saying God was "in the form of God"? This does not make any sense...The Bible is not confusing!

Trinitarians and their irrational equations, rationale:

God, in the form of God, raised himself from the dead (so God died...) and then God sat at God's right hand; and then comes the end, when death is defeated, God subjects Himself to Himself. Trinitarians, do you really believe this?

Trinitarians, this is absolute foolishness...

For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man is God. I Timothy 2:5

Mark 13:32. But of that day and hour knoweth no man; no, not the angels which are in heaven; NEITHER GOD; but the GOD only.

John 17:3. This is life eternal, that they might know THEE, THE ONLY TRUE GOD and GOD whom thou hast sent.

"I came not to do mine own will." Trinitarians, is Christ a deceiver, or is there a possibility that your understanding of God is corrupt?

God came not to do God's own will.

We can joust over verbs and nouns all day, but sense/logic is irrefutable.

Please, Feet, have you not been paying attention?

I quoted this before, but you seemed to miss the implications of it.

Phil. 2:5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
Phil. 2:6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
Phil. 2:7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
Phil. 2:8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

So God the Son MADE HIMSELF INTO A MAN. Actually, I like to point out that He obviously made Himself into a little embryo and placed Himself in the womb of Mary, who He also created.

While He was walking the earth, Jesus was IMO not "fully God" (though some Trinitarians say that He was fully God while on earth), but He most definitely was FULLY MAN. He was clearly no longer omniscient, omnipotent, or omnipresent as God is. In other words, He willingly and lovingly GAVE UP His "Godness" and thus, He did not have knowledge of everything, but had to learn and grow as a human being. I believe He became totally subservient to and dependent on His Holy Father.
• Luke 2:52 And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favour with God and man.

...but thankfully, He was then able to die FOR OUR SINS.

Once He returned to the very Heaven He Himself created, I believe He resumed His position as God the Son but also took on the new responsibility of "MEDIATOR" between God and man, since He was now the ultimate "God-man."

DispensationalJim

July 31st, 2009, 5:59 pm

Take your feelings of insult up with God who had the OT prefigurments. I know you like to treat the bible like the OT and NT are two different books but it does not work that way.

Revelation 1:11*saying: “What you see write in a scroll and send it to the seven congregations, in Eph′e‧sus and in Smyr′na and in Per′ga‧mum and in Thy‧a‧ti′ra and in Sar′dis and in Philadelphia and in La‧o‧di‧ce′a

Jesus the first one raised from the dead to heavenly life by God and will be the last since the rest are raised by Jesus.

So, DRS, in your opinion, Jesus Christ is not THE SAVIOUR OF THE WORLD?

And actually, as a dispensationalist, I believe Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John are still technically part of the Old Testament since they are still under the Law. Acts is IMO a "transitional" book between the Old and the New, which changes at Acts 9 when Saul is tranformed into Paul,THE apostle of the Gentiles who begins teaching about the dispensation of the Age of Grace in which we are "no longer under the Law" (Rom. 6:14-15). Then, Hebrews begins what I prefer to call the Hebrew epistles which warn the Jewish remnant of the coming Tribulation and their Kingdom.

DRS

July 31st, 2009, 6:05 pm

Jesus is God means of salvation so Jesus can be called the saviour of the word since God is using him.

Much like your view on God you are entitles to your opinions

DRS

July 31st, 2009, 6:54 pm

"I believe he resumed", in other words, your guessing. You do not have to do that...the Bible is clear.

What is your initial feeling when you read the following, DRS and Trinitarians:

God, in the form of God, raised himself from the dead (so God died...) and then God sat at God's right hand; and then comes the end, when death is defeated, God subjects Himself to Himself.

Because this is what you want non-Trinitarians to believe. I re-hash this because I do not think it was posed this way, so again, for the Trinity to be true, then that illogical statement abovementioned is logical, right?

I am not a trinitarian and in order to accept the trinity you have to ignore the OT prefigurments like Abraham offering up Issac an dyou have to ignore vast amounts of scriptures.

DispensationalJim

August 1st, 2009, 9:46 pm

Jesus is God means of salvation so Jesus can be called the saviour of the word since God is using him.

Much like your view on God you are entitles to your opinions

But, DRS, I am asking if Jesus is your Saviour?

Not only CAN Jesus be "called the saviour," as you so graciously put it, DRS, but we know absolutely for sure from Scripture that JESUS CHRIST IS THE ONE AND ONLY SAVIOUR OF THE WORLD!

Once again, here are some verses which you apparently ignored previously:
• John 4:42 And said unto the woman, Now we believe, not because of thy saying: for we have heard him ourselves, and know that this is indeed the Christ, THE Saviour of the world.
• Phil. 3:20 For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for THE Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ:
• 1Tim. 4:10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is THE Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.
• 1John 4:14 And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be THE Saviour of the world.

=================================

I am so grateful, DRS, that I am allowed to have my opinion about God and the Bible, just as I concede to you that you also have that same "right." :)

DRS

August 2nd, 2009, 9:47 am

I noiced something there is no definite article in 1 Timothy 4:10 before the word saviour.

Yes Jesus is the means by which God is saving the world

DispensationalJim

August 2nd, 2009, 3:51 pm

I noiced something there is no definite article in 1 Timothy 4:10 before the word saviour.

Yes Jesus is the means by which God is saving the world

Is that in the Wescott and Hort Greek text or the Textus receptus Greek text? Can you show us all some evidence, please? But, then again, we know that context determines many of the translations, doesn't it?

OK, DRS, you say Jesus is the "means." So do you concede that Jesus is YOUR SAVIOUR? If He is not, then how, pray tell, are you going to be saved? Oh, that's right, you don't believe in Hell, so what would you need be saved from? :)

DRS

August 2nd, 2009, 4:33 pm

Is that in the Wescott and Hort Greek text or the Textus receptus Greek text? Can you show us all some evidence, please? But, then again, we know that context determines many of the translations, doesn't it?

OK, DRS, you say Jesus is the "means." So do you concede that Jesus is YOUR SAVIOUR? If He is not, then how, pray tell, are you going to be saved? Oh, that's right, you don't believe in Hell, so what would you need be saved from? :)

Oldest less likely to be corrupt manuscripts, and it is not a matter of context there is no ho(the) there.

Now seems convient you want to dwell on the word the but ignore the fact in John 1:1 it does not say the word was the God but it does say the word was with the God.

What did God tell Adam they would suffer if they disobeyed?

The wages sin pays is what?

DispensationalJim

August 2nd, 2009, 9:17 pm

Oldest less likely to be corrupt manuscripts, and it is not a matter of context there is no ho(the) there.

Now seems convient you want to dwell on the word the but ignore the fact in John 1:1 it does not say the word was the God but it does say the word was with the God.

What did God tell Adam they would suffer if they disobeyed?

The wages sin pays is what?

Yeah, sure, DRS, since the so-called "oldest" copies were -- according to historians -- found in waste baskets, you think they are less likely to be corrupt?

Once again, please give us some evidence of the "ho." Show us the Greek text and also show us which Greek manuscript it came from.

Please tell us what verses you are thinking of specifically regarding Adam, etc.

I'm sure in that last statement, DRS, you are referring to this verse:
• Rom. 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

We should probably start a thread about Hell, but IMO the verse above is speaking of SPIRITUAL DEATH, which is what I believe Adam experienced.

Here are a few verses about Hell:
• Matt. 5:22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.
• Matt. 23:33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?
• Mark 9:43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:... 45 And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
• 2Pet. 2:4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;
etc., etc...

DRS

August 2nd, 2009, 9:32 pm

I guess Josiah should have had them throw out the copy of the law when they found it since it was not kept all pristine.

So you do not think Adam started dying the day he ate the fruit

You know gehenna was right?

DispensationalJim

August 3rd, 2009, 9:27 am

I guess Josiah should have had them throw out the copy of the law when they found it since it was not kept all pristine.

The law was given to the people of Israel, and they were required to keep it. But God revealed to the apostle Paul that we are no longer under the law:
• Rom. 3:19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
• Rom. 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace. 15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid. .
• Gal. 3:23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
• Gal. 4:4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law, 5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.
• Gal. 5:18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

So you do not think Adam started dying the day he ate the fruit

Yes, DRS, I agree that had Adam not eaten of the fruit, he would not have died physically or spiritually.

You know gehenna was right?

I am quite aware of the Greek words which translate to the English word "hell." It still doesn't prove there is no literal hell IMO.

DRS

August 3rd, 2009, 9:43 am

DispensationalJim

August 3rd, 2009, 11:03 am

I was talking about the copy of the law the one written by the hand of Moses, that copy was found during a clean.

Would you have diregarded that too?

When did God create hell?

Why does you god feel the need to torture people forever for disobeying for a few years?

Why is the justice in that?

That god is nothing like the God of the bible.

DRS - I wish you would be more considerate and careful in your typing.

I still do not know what you are talking about with that "copy of the law" written by Moses. Just give me a Bible reference, please, and maybe I can get your point.

This thread seems to have become a DRS vs DJ about hell, but here goes.

The concept of hell goes way back...
• Job 11:8 It is as high as heaven; what canst thou do? deeper than hell; what canst thou know?
• Deut. 32:22 For a fire is kindled in mine anger, and shall burn unto the lowest hell, and shall consume the earth with her increase, and set on fire the foundations of the mountains.
• Psa. 9:17 The wicked shall be turned into hell, and all the nations that forget God.
• Psa. 86:13 For great is thy mercy toward me: and thou hast delivered my soul from the lowest hell.
• Psa. 116:3 The sorrows of death compassed me, and the pains of hell gat hold upon me: I found trouble and sorrow.

etc., etc.

As I recall, God created hell for the fallen angels and the Devil, but I haven't found the verse for that yet.

As far as God being a just God, why did He have the Israelites kill entire "nations" of people, including the women and children?

DRS

August 3rd, 2009, 12:32 pm

You know Jim I wish you knew your bible better so I did not have to dig stuff out for you like this

2 Chronicles 34:8*And in the eighteenth year of his reigning, when he had cleansed the land and the house, he sent Sha′phan the son of Az‧a‧li′ah and Ma‧a‧sei′ah the chief of the city and Jo′ah the son of Jo′a‧haz the recorder to repair the house of Jehovah his God. 9*And they proceeded to come to Hil‧ki′ah the high priest and give the money that was being brought to the house of God, which the Levites the doorkeepers had gathered from the hand of Ma‧nas′seh and E′phra‧im and from all the rest of Israel and from all Judah and Benjamin and the inhabitants of Jerusalem. 10*Then they put [it] into the hand of the doers of the work that were appointed over the house of Jehovah. In turn the doers of the work who were active in the house of Jehovah applied it to mending and repairing the house. 11*So they gave it to the craftsmen and the builders to buy hewn stones and timbers for clamps and to build with beams the houses that the kings of Judah had brought to ruin.
12*And the men were acting in faithfulness in the work; and over them there were appointed Ja′hath and O‧ba‧di′ah the Levites, from the sons of Me‧rar′i, and Zech‧a‧ri′ah and Me‧shul′lam, from the sons of the Ko′hath‧ites, to act as overseers. And the Levites, each of whom was expert with the instruments of song, 13*were over the burden bearers, and the overseers of all the doers of the work for the different services; and from the Levites there were secretaries and officers and gatekeepers.
14*Now while they were bringing out the money that was being brought to the house of Jehovah, Hil‧ki′ah the priest found the book of Jehovah’s law by the hand of Moses. 15*So Hil‧ki′ah answered and said to Sha′phan the secretary: “The very book of the law I have found in the house of Jehovah.” With that Hil‧ki′ah gave the book to Sha′phan. 16*Then Sha′phan brought the book to the king and replied further to the king, saying: “All that has been put in the hand of your servants they are doing. 17*And they pour out the money that is found in the house of Jehovah and put it in the hand of the appointed men and into the hand of the doers of the work.” 18*And Sha′phan the secretary went on to report to the king, saying: “There is a book that Hil‧ki′ah the priest gave me.” And Sha′phan began to read out of it before the king.

Okay Job was Sheol which was the common grave the place Job prayed to go to. In fact the Hebrew word used each time is Sheol the common grave.

Sheol is not your greek version of hell.

Were not women used to lead Israel into sin?

Children have always come under their actions of their parents since Adam and Eve. But just like the Abel there were those who aknowledgded God and were spared such as Rahab and the Gibeonites.

There is not scripture that shows God creating hell because this imaginary place of eternal punishment was never created, it symbolizes ever lasting destruction.

DispensationalJim

August 3rd, 2009, 3:22 pm

You know Jim I wish you knew your bible better so I did not have to dig stuff out for you like this

2 Chronicles 34:8*And in the eighteenth year of his reigning, when he had cleansed the land and the house, he sent Sha′phan the son of Az‧a‧li′ah and Ma‧a‧sei′ah the chief of the city and Jo′ah the son of Jo′a‧haz the recorder to repair the house of Jehovah his God. 9*And they proceeded to come to Hil‧ki′ah the high priest and give the money that was being brought to the house of God, which the Levites the doorkeepers had gathered from the hand of Ma‧nas′seh and E′phra‧im and from all the rest of Israel and from all Judah and Benjamin and the inhabitants of Jerusalem. 10*Then they put [it] into the hand of the doers of the work that were appointed over the house of Jehovah. In turn the doers of the work who were active in the house of Jehovah applied it to mending and repairing the house. 11*So they gave it to the craftsmen and the builders to buy hewn stones and timbers for clamps and to build with beams the houses that the kings of Judah had brought to ruin.
12*And the men were acting in faithfulness in the work; and over them there were appointed Ja′hath and O‧ba‧di′ah the Levites, from the sons of Me‧rar′i, and Zech‧a‧ri′ah and Me‧shul′lam, from the sons of the Ko′hath‧ites, to act as overseers. And the Levites, each of whom was expert with the instruments of song, 13*were over the burden bearers, and the overseers of all the doers of the work for the different services; and from the Levites there were secretaries and officers and gatekeepers.
14*Now while they were bringing out the money that was being brought to the house of Jehovah, Hil‧ki′ah the priest found the book of Jehovah’s law by the hand of Moses. 15*So Hil‧ki′ah answered and said to Sha′phan the secretary: “The very book of the law I have found in the house of Jehovah.” With that Hil‧ki′ah gave the book to Sha′phan. 16*Then Sha′phan brought the book to the king and replied further to the king, saying: “All that has been put in the hand of your servants they are doing. 17*And they pour out the money that is found in the house of Jehovah and put it in the hand of the appointed men and into the hand of the doers of the work.” 18*And Sha′phan the secretary went on to report to the king, saying: “There is a book that Hil‧ki′ah the priest gave me.” And Sha′phan began to read out of it before the king.

Thank you for finally supplying the actual verses to which you were referring. I certainly hope you didn't strain yourself in all that work. :)

I did recall that there was a time when they found some of Moses' writings, but I did not have time to search for it, so thank you for your help. Since you always use the NWT, my King James search program doesn't usually match up with the words you are using, so that is why I ask for you to simply give me a reference since you brought it up.

Okay Job was Sheol which was the common grave the place Job prayed to go to. In fact the Hebrew word used each time is Sheol the common grave.

Sheol is not your greek version of hell.

Job was Sheol??? You probably meant to say that Job probably originally used the Hebrew word "sheol" which signifies "the unseen state" and was translated in many English Bibles as Hell.

Hell in the NT is usually either from the Greek word "gehenna" signifying "the place of torment" or from the Greek word "hades" signifying "the unseen world" but was translated often into the English word "Hell."

Were not women used to lead Israel into sin?

Children have always come under their actions of their parents since Adam and Eve. But just like the Abel there were those who aknowledgded God and were spared such as Rahab and the Gibeonites.

So, what was your point here?

There is not scripture that shows God creating hell because this imaginary place of eternal punishment was never created, it symbolizes ever lasting destruction.
And so when was the Lake of Fire created??

DRS

August 3rd, 2009, 4:14 pm

I am sure my strain in posting a scripture is much less then any strain it would be on your part to have read it.

Job prayed to go to sheol

You tried to make the God of the bible sound all vindictive like your god. See the problem is you do not seem to understand that God does not torture people. He is just

The lake of fire is symbolic that is why you see symbolic things there, it means they will be destroyed.

DispensationalJim

August 3rd, 2009, 10:20 pm

I am sure my strain in posting a scripture is much less then any strain it would be on your part to have read it.

No strain. i just appreciate when you do actually give us the verse you are speaking about so we don't have to hunt for it or guess. For a 70 year old, many say my memory is excellent, but i know it "ain't what it used to be" and I will be the first to admit that I don't have the entire Bible memorized.

So if you would just tell us what verse you are referencing whenever you can, I'm sure we would all be very grateful. :)

Job prayed to go to sheol

"Sheol" does not appear in my King James, but in the American Standard Version of 1901, it lists these verses from Job with "sheol" in them:
*Job 7:9 As the cloud is consumed and vanisheth away, So he that goeth down to Sheol shall come up no more.
* Job 14:13 Oh that thou wouldest hide me in Sheol, That thou wouldest keep me secret, until thy wrath be past, That thou wouldest appoint me a set time, and remember me!
* Job 17:13 If I look for Sheol as my house; If I have spread my couch in the darkness;... 16 It shall go down to the bars of Sheol, When once there is rest in the dust.
* Job 21:13 They spend their days in prosperity, And in a moment they go down to Sheol.
* Job 24:19 Drought and heat consume the snow waters: So doth Sheol those that have sinned.
* Job 26:6 Sheol is naked before God, And Abaddon hath no covering.

As I mentioned before, my Topical Bible says "sheol" signifies "the unseen state," so "sheol" works for me just as "Hell" works for me.

You tried to make the God of the bible sould all vindictive like you god.

Sorry, DRS, but I don't get what you are saying in that statement. Could you please fix it so I can understand it?

I have said many times that I am a terrible typist. But on this post alone, I corrected at least 20 typos. Why can't you correct one or two every so often just to show that you care about people knowing what you are trying to say.

See the problem is you do not seem to understand that God does not torture people. He is just

People go to Hell for rejecting God's Son as their Saviour, so IMO they make their choice and thus they must pay the price. If there is no Hell, then why would they need to worry about living in sin, etc. if "when its over its over"?

The lake of fire is symbolic that is why you see symbolic things there, it means they will be destroyed.

Here are the "Lake of Fire" verses again:
• Rev. 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
• Rev. 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. ... 14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Please try to prove to me that those verses are symbolic. Thank you.

I don't see the word "destroyed" anywhere there. The word "destroyed" is used once in The Book of The Revelation as shown below, so the translators knew about that word, but did not use it in regard to Hell.
• Rev. 8:9 And the third part of the creatures which were in the sea, and had life, died; and the third part of the ships were destroyed.

DRS

August 4th, 2009, 6:59 am

DispensationalJim

August 4th, 2009, 8:04 am

See you need hell to scare people into not doing things?

God just does not reward those who carry on in sin, he just rewards those who do His will.

What do you see there?
Oh yes the symbolic wild beast and false prophet and you see death and hades there too. All symbolic.

Just more opinion, with no evidence. Let's move back to the subject of the thread...

I'm going to repost Fire Watch's fine comparison of Jesus and Jehovah again with all the complete verses ASAP.

DispensationalJim

August 4th, 2009, 9:09 am

A COMPARISON BETWEEN JEHOVAH AND JESUS
(originally posted by Fire Watch with references only)

======================================

PART ONE

JEHOVAH

1)JEHOVAH, THE ALMIGHTY--Gen. 17:1 And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the LORD appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect.

2)JEHOVAH, THE I AM--Ex. 3:14 And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you. 15 And God said moreover unto Moses, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, The LORD God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, hath sent me unto you: this is my name for ever, and this is my memorial unto all generations. 16 Go, and gather the elders of Israel together, and say unto them, The LORD God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, of Isaac, and of Jacob, appeared unto me, saying, I have surely visited you, and seen that which is done to you in Egypt:

3)JEHOVAH, THE ROCK--Psa. 18:2 The LORD is MY ROCK, AND MY FORTRESS, AND MY DELIVERER; MY GOD, MY STRENGTH, IN WHOM I WILL TRUST; MY BUCKLER, AND THE HORN OF MY SALVATION, AND my high tower. ... 28:1 Unto thee will I cry, O LORD my rock; be not silent to me: lest, if thou be silent to me, I become like them that go down into the pit.

4)JEHOVAH, THE HORN OF SALVATION--Psa. 18:2 The LORD is MY ROCK, AND MY FORTRESS, AND MY DELIVERER; MY GOD, MY STRENGTH, IN WHOM I WILL TRUST; MY BUCKLER, AND THE HORN OF MY SALVATION, AND my high tower.

5)JEHOBAH, THE SHEPHERD -- Psa. 23:1 The LORD is my shepherd; I shall not want.
Is. 40:10 Behold, the Lord GOD will come with strong hand, and his arm shall rule for him: behold, his reward is with him, and his work before him.
Is. 40:11 He shall feed his flock like a shepherd: he shall gather the lambs with his arm, and carry them in his bosom, and shall gently lead those that are with young.

6)JEOHVAH, THE KING OF GLORY --Psa. 24:7 Lift up your heads, O ye gates; and be ye lift up, ye everlasting doors; and the King of glory shall come in. 8 Who is this King of glory? The LORD strong and mighty, the LORD mighty in battle. 9 Lift up your heads, O ye gates; even lift them up, ye everlasting doors; and the King of glory shall come in. 10 Who is this King of glory? The LORD of hosts, he is the King of glory. Selah.

7)JEHOVAH, THE LIGHT--Psa. 27:1 The LORD is MY LIGHT AND MY SALVATION; WHOM SHALL I FEAR? THE LORD is the strength of my life; of whom shall I be afraid?
Is. 60:19 The sun shall be no more thy light by day; neither for brightness shall the moon give light unto thee: but the LORD shall be unto thee an everlasting light, and thy God thy glory.

8)JEHOVAH, MY SALVATION--Psa. 27:1 The LORD is MY LIGHT AND MY SALVATION; WHOM SHALL I FEAR? THE LORD is the strength of my life; of whom shall I be afraid?
Is. 12:2 Behold, God is my salvation; I will trust, and not be afraid: for the LORD JEHOVAH is my strength and my song; he also is become my salvation.

9)JEHOVAH, THE LORD OF LORDS--Psa. 136:3 O give thanks to the Lord of lords: for his mercy endureth for ever.

10)JEHOVAH, THE HOLY ONE --Is. 12:6 Cry out and shout, thou inhabitant of Zion: for great is the Holy One of Israel in the midst of thee.

11)JEHOVAH, THE LAW GIVER--Is. 33:22 For the LORD is OUR JUDGE, THE LORD is OUR LAWGIVER, THE LORD is our king; he will save us.

12)JEHOVAH, OUR JUDGE--Is. 33:22 For the LORD is OUR JUDGE, THE LORD is OUR LAWGIVER, THE LORD is our king; he will save us.

13)JEHOVAH, THE FIRST AND THE LAST--Is. 41:4 Who hath wrought and done it, calling the generations from the beginning? I the LORD, the first, and with the last; I am he. ... 6 They helped every one his neighbour; and every one said to his brother, Be of good courage.
Is. 48:12 Hearken unto me, O Jacob and Israel, my called; I am he; I am the first, I also am the last.

14)JEHOVAH, THE ONLY SAVIOUR--Is. 43:11 I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.
Is. 45:21 Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me.
Is. 60:16 Thou shalt also suck the milk of the Gentiles, and shalt suck the breast of kings: and thou shalt know that I the LORD am thy Saviour and thy Redeemer, the mighty One of Jacob.

15)JEHOVAH, THE GIVER OF SPIRITUAL WATER--Is. 44:3 For I will pour water upon him that is thirsty, and floods upon the dry ground: I will pour my spirit upon thy seed, and my blessing upon thine offspring:

16)JEHOVAH, THE KING OF ISRAEL--Is. 44:6 Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.

17)JEHOVAH, THE ONLY CREATOR--Is. 44:24 Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;
Is. 45:8 Drop down, ye heavens, from above, and let the skies pour down righteousness: let the earth open, and let them bring forth salvation, and let righteousness spring up together; I the LORD have created it.
Is. 48:13 Mine hand also hath laid the foundation of the earth, and my right hand hath spanned the heavens: when I call unto them, they stand up together.

18)JEHOVAH, THE ONLY JUST GOD--Is. 45:21 Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me.

19)JEHOVAH, THY REDEEMER--Is. 54:5 For thy Maker is thine husband; the LORD of hosts is his name; and thy Redeemer the Holy One of Israel; The God of the whole earth shall he be called.
Is. 60:16 Thou shalt also suck the milk of the Gentiles, and shalt suck the breast of kings: and thou shalt know that I the LORD am thy Saviour and thy Redeemer, the mighty One of Jacob.

================================

PART TWO, JESUS, TO FOLLOW

DispensationalJim

August 4th, 2009, 9:10 am

PART TWOJESUS

1)JESUS, THE ALMIGHTY --Rev. 1:8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

2)JESUS, THE I AM--John 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

3)JESUS, THE ROCK--1Cor. 10:4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

4)JESUS, THE HORN OF SALVATION--Luke 1:69 And hath raised up an horn of salvation for us in the house of his servant David;

5)JESUS, THE Good Shepherd, Great Shepherd, Chief Shepherd--John 10:11 I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep. ...14 I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.
Heb. 13:20 Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant,
1Pet. 5:4 And when the chief Shepherd shall appear, ye shall receive a crown of glory that fadeth not away.

6)JESUS, THE LORD OF GLORY--1Cor. 2:8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

7)JESUS, THE LIGHT--John 1:4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men. 5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not. ... 9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.
John 8:12 Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.
Rev. 21:23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.

8)JESUS, THE ONLY SALVATION--Acts 4:10 ... by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole. ...12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

9)JESUS, THE LORD OF LORDS--1Tim. 6:14 ... until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ: 15 Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;
Rev. 17:14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings:
Rev. 19:13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. ...16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.

10)JESUS, THE HOLY ONE--Acts 2:27 Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

11)JESUS, THE Testator of the First Testament (the Law)--Heb. 9:14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God? 15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance. 16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator. 17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.

12)JESUS, THE JUDGE--Micah 5:1; Acts 10:42

13)JESUS, THE Alpha and Omega, Beginning and Ending, First and Last--Revelation 1:8; 22:13

14)JESUS, THE SAVIOUR--Titus 2:13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
Titus 3:6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;

15)JESUS, THE Giver of Living Water--John 4:10 Jesus answered and said unto her, If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink; thou wouldest have asked of him, and he would have given thee living water.... 13 Jesus answered and said unto her, Whosoever drinketh of this water shall thirst again: 14 But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.
John 7:38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. 39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

16) JESUS, THE King of Israel, King of kings--John 1:49 Nathanael answered and saith unto him, Rabbi, thou art the Son of God; thou art the King of Israel.
Rev. 19:16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.

17) JESUS, THE Creator of everything--John 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. ... 10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
Col. 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

18) JESUS, THE JUST ONE--Acts 7:52 Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers:

19) JESUS, OUR REDEEMER--Gal. 3:13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:
Rev. 5:9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

Angryamerican

August 4th, 2009, 9:38 am

I disagree.

I see no reason why members of the Trinity could not allow one member to be head.

They can't be coequal if one is ahead of another.

Angryamerican

August 4th, 2009, 9:42 am

Not so.

Three totally equal people can form a group, and appoint one as head. They are equal and can make and/or change that decision.

Why can it not be so with the Trinity?

It's very simple really, you are using your own philosophy and reasoning versus what scripture testifies.

DispensationalJim

August 4th, 2009, 9:46 am

It's very simple really, you are using your own philosophy and reasoning versus what scripture testifies.

Yep, it's very simple alright. The Bible says that "Jesus is God" and we believe it and you don't!

As I recall, AA, you have indicated many times that you doubt the New Testament, so that places your view of Jesus in a different dimension than ours -- IMO.

Angryamerican

August 4th, 2009, 9:50 am

Angryamerican

August 4th, 2009, 9:57 am

Just more opinion, with no evidence. Let's move back to the subject of the thread...

I'm going to repost Fire Watch's fine comparison of Jesus and Jehovah again with all the complete verses ASAP.

Dj, wild beast and false prophet and death and hades theses things are not symbolic?:eh:

Angryamerican

August 4th, 2009, 10:01 am

DRS

August 4th, 2009, 10:14 am

Hey Jim give me a verse whenre it says clearly Jesus is the Almighty

I can show so many verses that clearly show Jesus is not Jehovah and yet these is not one that shows he is.

There are verses that refer to Jesus as being created by God.

Explain Psalm 110:1 or Isaiah 61 any who things Jesus is Jehovha

gpd®

August 4th, 2009, 12:38 pm

gpd®

August 4th, 2009, 12:43 pm

Titus 2:13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;

DRS

August 4th, 2009, 2:11 pm

John 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.

So you can not explain how Jesus can be Jehovah in light of those verses

DRS

August 4th, 2009, 2:15 pm

Titus 2:13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;

Missed some other verses

4*However, when the kindness and the love for man on the part of our Savior, God, was manifested, 5*owing to no works in righteousness that we had performed, but according to his mercy he saved us through the bath that brought us to life and through the making of us new by holy spirit. 6*This [spirit] he poured out richly upon us through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7*that, after being declared righteous by virtue of the undeserved kindness of that one, we might become heirs according to a hope of everlasting life.

gpd®

August 4th, 2009, 2:15 pm

So you can not explain how Jesus can be Jehovah in light of those verses

You just said to give you a verse, not to explain it.:)

DRS

August 4th, 2009, 2:26 pm

You just said to give you a verse, not to explain it.:)

That does not say Jesus is Jehovah or that Jesus is the Almighty

It is like this

Exodus 7 Consequently Jehovah said to Moses: “See, I have made you God to Phar′aoh, and Aaron your own brother will become your prophet

gpd®

August 4th, 2009, 2:29 pm

I understand this is rehash, but hey, that's how we learn.

God never changes.
Malachi 3:6 For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.

Jesus never changes.
Hebrews 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.

gpd®

August 4th, 2009, 2:33 pm

So you can not explain how Jesus can be Jehovah in light of those verses

Strong's G2316 - theos

θεός

Usage — God 1320, god 13, godly 3, God-ward + 4214 2, misc 5

gpd®

August 4th, 2009, 2:36 pm

That does not say Jesus is Jehovah or that Jesus is the Almighty

It is like this

Exodus 7 Consequently Jehovah said to Moses: “See, I have made you God to Phar′aoh, and Aaron your own brother will become your prophet

Note: "a god." Not god as with Thomas and Titus.

I believe the Hebrew translation in Exodus mostly meant "godly" as its usage.

gpd®

August 4th, 2009, 2:38 pm

gpd®

August 4th, 2009, 2:38 pm

Jesus is the only Saviour.

...the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world. 1 John 4:14

...our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. II Peter 3:18

...God and our Saviour Jesus Christ. II Peter 1:1

...the Christ, the Saviour of the world. John 4:42

...the Lord Jesus Christ our Saviour. Titus 1:4

a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord. Luke 2:11

Neither is there salvation in any other (than Jesus): for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.
--Acts 4:12

...salvation... is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.
--2 Timothy 2:10

...captain of their salvation [Jesus] perfect through sufferings.
-- Heb 2:10

[Jesus]...author of eternal salvation...
-- Heb 5:9

(thanks to Jesus-is-Lord.com)

the oldtimer

August 4th, 2009, 3:55 pm

So shall i whip out the comparisons of Christ and The Angel Of The LORD again.
Rev. 1:5 KJV, For unto which of the angels said He at any time, thou art my Son, this day I have begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a father, and He shall be to me a Son?
The answer to these questions is obviously, NONE. and on the fact of just this one verse alone, the insistence that Jesus, was Micheal, is nothing short of just plain silly, IMO

gpd®

August 4th, 2009, 4:06 pm

Rev. 1:5 KJV, For unto which of the angels said He at any time, thou art my Son, this day I have begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a father, and He shall be to me a Son?
The answer to these questions is obviously, NONE. and on the fact of just this one verse alone, the insistence that Jesus, was Micheal, is nothing short of just plain silly, IMO

I found it interesting to also find that verse in Psalms

[T]he LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee. Psalms 2:7

Angryamerican

August 4th, 2009, 4:19 pm

Strong's G2316 - theos

θεός

Usage — God 1320, god 13, godly 3, God-ward + 4214 2, misc 5

So how the word god is used there does it imply Almighty or Jehovah ?

Angryamerican

August 4th, 2009, 4:34 pm

God is the only Saviour.

"I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour." Isaiah 43:11

To the only wise God our Saviour... Jude 1:12

God our Saviour. Titus 2:10

...we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour. I Timothy 4:10

God my Saviour. Luke 1:47

Yes,God is our savior through Christ.

So it is ok for Jesus to be referenced as our savior.

20. Behold, I send an Angel before you to keep you in the way and to bring you into the place which I have prepared.
21. Beware of Him and obey His voice; do not provoke Him, for He will not pardon your transgressions; for My name is in Him. Exodus 23:20-21

So, this Angel has God's name. He has the name of Jehovah or Yahweh (YHWH) because God's name is in Him.

Now Paul just comes out with it and tells us that this Angel is Jesus!

1. Moreover, brethren, I do not want you to be unaware that all our fathers were under the cloud, all passed through the sea,
2. all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea,
3. all ate the same spiritual food,
4. and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them, and that Rock was Christ. 1 Corinthians 10:1-4.

That Rock was Christ. Who is Paul talking about? Let's go to Exodus and find specifically who it is that Paul is referring to, because I have always thought that the angel led them. He didn't follow the camp of Israel, did He?

19. And the Angel of God, who went before the camp of Israel, moved and went behind them; and the pillar of cloud went from before them and stood behind them.
20. So it came between the camp of the Egyptians and the camp of Israel. Thus it was a cloud and darkness to the one, and it gave light by night to the other, so that the one did not come near the other all that night.
21. Then Moses stretched out his hand over the sea; and the Lord caused the sea to go back by a strong east wind all that night, and made the sea into dry land, and the waters were divided.
22. So the children of Israel went into the midst of the sea on the dry ground, and the waters were a wall to them on their right hand and on their left.
23. And the Egyptians pursued and went after them into the midst of the sea, all PharaohÕs horses, his chariots, and his horsemen.
24. Now it came to pass, in the morning watch, that the Lord looked down upon the army of the Egyptians through the pillar of fire and cloud, and He troubled the army of the Egyptians. Exodus 14:19-24.

Paul in 1 Corinthians 10 is specifically speaking of the crossing of the red sea and of that cloud where God was. So Paul identifies Him as Jesus. Now in Exodus, we see that it is the Angel of God who is in the cloud that went behind to go between the camp of Israel and the Egyptians.

So Paul is clearly saying that the Angel of God is Jesus. When the LORD looks down and causes trouble for the Egyptians, we now know that it was Jesus who did these things because He has God's name in Him.

Isaiah adds to this thought by saying that the Angel of His Presence has saved, redeemed, and carried Israel all throughout the days of old. Isaiah says that this angel became their Savior!

7. I will mention the lovingkindnesses of the LORD And the praises of the LORD, According to all that the LORD has bestowed on us, And the great goodness toward the house of Israel, Which He has bestowed on them according to His mercies, According to the multitude of His lovingkindnesses.
8. For He said, "Surely they are My people, Children who will not lie." So He became their Savior.
9. In all their affliction He was afflicted, And the Angel of His Presence saved them; In His love and in His pity He redeemed them; And He bore them and carried them All the days of old. Isaiah 63:7-9

So the angel that has The Father's name in Him, who is also called the Angel of His Presence has always been the Savior of Israel all through the days of old. He has saved, redeemed, and carried them. It is no wonder that Paul identifies Him as being Christ.

These things about the Angel of God help to confirm that it has always been Jesus all along who has led God's people, even through all the days of old.

18. No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him. John 1:18

It has been Jesus all along who has lead God's people! And He has been identified as the Angel of God and the Angel of His Presence.

Angryamerican

August 4th, 2009, 4:36 pm

Rev. 1:5 KJV, For unto which of the angels said He at any time, thou art my Son, this day I have begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a father, and He shall be to me a Son?
The answer to these questions is obviously, NONE. and on the fact of just this one verse alone, the insistence that Jesus, was Micheal, is nothing short of just plain silly, IMO

Michael is the Angel he did that with, but after he became the Christ.

gpd®

August 4th, 2009, 4:42 pm

So how the word god is used there does it imply Almighty or Jehovah ?

According to Vine's interpretation of the use of "Theos" in John 20:28

Hence the word was appropriated by Jews and retained by Christians to denote "the one true God." In the Sept. theos translates (with few exceptions) the Hebrew words Elohim and Jehovah, the former indicating His power and preeminence, the latter His unoriginated, immutable, eternal and self-sustained existence.

gpd®

August 4th, 2009, 4:48 pm

That Rock was Christ. Who is Paul talking about? Let's go to Exodus and find specifically who it is that Paul is referring to, because I have always thought that the angel led them. He didn't follow the camp of Israel, did He?

Paul also made ample implications that Jesus is God.

"And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: GOD was manifest in the FLESH, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, BELIEVED ON in the world, RECEIVED UP into glory."

--1 Timothy 3:16

"For in [Jesus] dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily."

-- Colossians 2:9

"...CHRIST JESUS...being in the FORM OF GOD, thought it not robbery to be EQUAL WITH GOD: But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross."

--Philippians 2:5-8

DispensationalJim

August 4th, 2009, 4:49 pm

A repeat for AA:

OK, DRS, here we go again:

First, WHO IS "THE FIRST AND THE LAST"??
• Rev. 1:8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.
• Rev. 1:11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last:...
• Rev. 1:18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.
• Rev. 2:8 And unto the angel of the church in Smyrna write; These things saith the first and the last, which was dead, and is alive;
• Rev. 21:6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.
• Rev. 22:13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.

Those verses speak of "THE first and the last," therefore there is only ONE.

In Rev. 1:11 and 22:13, "THE first and the last" IS "THE Alpha and Omega."

In Rev. 1:8, "THE Alpha and Omega" IS THE ALMIGHTY.

In Rev. 1:18 and 2:8 "THE first and the last" WAS DEAD and is alive.

Who else could that possibly be speaking of but JESUS CHRIST??

gpd®

August 4th, 2009, 4:51 pm

Hi D-Jim,

Just having some fun in your absence, hope you don't mind.;)

Angryamerican

August 4th, 2009, 4:59 pm

According to Vine's interpretation of the use of "Theos" in John 20:28

Nope look at your definition again,i don't trust to many peoples opinions when it comes to these matters to many let their views and or agendas get in the way.

Angryamerican

August 4th, 2009, 5:00 pm

Paul also made ample implications that Jesus is God.

Godhead means divine or you can use the word god.

Angryamerican

August 4th, 2009, 5:02 pm

A repeat for AA:

I do know what this means to you,but for the sake of disputing over it i explained this before take it or leave it your choice.

Angryamerican

August 4th, 2009, 5:04 pm

Hi D-Jim,

Just having some fun in your absence, hope you don't mind.;)

My friend Dj needs all the help he can get :D ;)

gpd®

August 4th, 2009, 5:05 pm

Godhead means divine or you can use the word god.

My Greek dictionary says more.

Godhead
theotēs

1) deity

a) the state of being God, Godhead

gpd®

August 4th, 2009, 5:07 pm

Nope look at your definition again,i don't trust to many peoples opinions when it comes to these matters to many let their views and or agendas get in the way.

If you disagree with Vine's because of their agenda, that is your prerogative.

I am sure they feel conversely.:)

Angryamerican

August 4th, 2009, 5:08 pm

That is not what my Greek dictionary says.

How bout this Greek.

G2304
θεῖος
theios
thi'-os
From G2316; godlike (neuter as noun, divinity): - divine, godhead.Act 17:29 Forasmuch thenG3767 as we areG5225 the offspringG1085 of God,G2316 we oughtG3784 notG3756 to thinkG3543 that theG3588 GodheadG2304 isG1511 like untoG3664 gold,G5557 orG2228 silver,G696 orG2228 stone,G3037 gravenG5480 by artG5078 andG2532 man'sG444 device.G1761

Angryamerican

August 4th, 2009, 5:12 pm

If you disagree with Vine's because of their agenda, that is your prerogative.

I am sure they feel conversely.:)

One word of warning, be careful when someone gives you an opinion on what something means,check it out and make sure.

That is why we have so many different religions and beliefs on the very same scriptures.

gpd®

August 4th, 2009, 5:16 pm

How bout this Greek.

G2304
θεῖος
theios
thi'-os
From G2316; godlike (neuter as noun, divinity): - divine, godhead.Act 17:29 Forasmuch thenG3767 as we areG5225 the offspringG1085 of God,G2316 we oughtG3784 notG3756 to thinkG3543 that theG3588 GodheadG2304 isG1511 like untoG3664 gold,G5557 orG2228 silver,G696 orG2228 stone,G3037 gravenG5480 by artG5078 andG2532 man'sG444 device.G1761

Thayer's Lexicon: θεότης, the state of being God.

gpd®

August 4th, 2009, 5:19 pm

Trench's Synonyms:

ii. θειότης, θεότης.

Neither of these words occurs more than once in the N. T.; θειότης only at Rom. 1:20 (and once in the Apocrypha, Wisd. 18:9); θεότης at Col. 2:9. We have rendered both by ‘Godhead;’ yet they must not be regarded as identical in meaning, nor even as two different forms of the same word, which in process of time have separated off from one another, and acquired different shades of significance. On the contrary, there is a real distinction between them, and one which grounds itself on their different derivations; θεότης being from Θεός, and θειότης, not from τὸ θεῖον, which is nearly though not quite equivalent to Θεός, but from the adjective θεῖος.

Comparing the two passages where they severally occur, we shall at once perceive the fitness of the employment of one word in one, of the other in the other. In the first (Rom. 1:20) St. Paul is declaring how much of God may be known from the revelation of Himself which He has made in nature, from those vestiges of Himself which men may everywhere trace in the world around them. Yet it is not the personal God whom any man may learn to know by these aids: He can be known only by the revelation of Himself in his Son; but only his divine attributes, his majesty and glory. This Theophylact feels, who on Romans 1:20 gives μεγαλειότης as equivalent to θειότης; and it is not to be doubted that St. Paul uses this vaguer, more abstract, and less personal word, just because he would affirm that men may know God’s power and majesty, his θεῖα δύναμις (2 Pet. 1:3), from his works; but would not imply that they may know Himself from these, or from anything short of the revelation of his Eternal Word.1 Motives not dissimilar induce him to use τὸ θεῖον rather than ὁ θεός in addressing the Athenians on Mars’ Hill (Acts 17:29).

But in the second passage (Col. 2:9) St. Paul is declaring that in the Son there dwells all the fulness of absolute Godhead; they were no mere rays of divine glory which gilded Him, lighting up his person for a season and with a splendour not his own; but He was, and is, absolute and perfect God; and the Apostle uses θεότης to express this essential and personal Godhead of the Son; in the words of Augustine (De Civ. Dei, vii. 1): ‘Status ejus qui sit Deus.’ Thus Beza rightly: ‘Non dicit: τὴν θειότητα, i.e. divinitatem, sed τὴν θεότητα, i.e. deitatem, ut magis etiam expresse loquatur; . . . ἡ θειότης attributa videtur potius quam naturam ipsam declarare.’ And Bengel: ‘Non modo divinae virtutes, sed ipsa divina natura.’ De Wette has sought to express the distinction in his German translation, rendering θειότης by ‘Göttlichkeit,’ and θεότης by ‘Gottheit.’

There have not been wanting those who have denied that any such distinction was intended by St. Paul; and they rest this denial on the assumption that no such difference between the forces of the two words can be satisfactorily made out. But, even supposing that such a difference could not be shown in classical Greek, this of itself would be in no way decisive on the matter. The Gospel of Christ might for all this put into words, and again draw out from them, new forces, evolve latent distinctions, which those who hitherto employed the words may not have required, but which had become necessary now. And that this distinction between ‘deity’ and ‘divinity,’ if I may use these words to represent severally θεότης and θειότης, is one which would be strongly felt, and which therefore would seek its utterance in Christian theology, of this we have signal proof in the fact that the Latin Christian writers were not satisfied with ‘divinitas,’ which they found ready to their hand in the writings of Cicero and others; and which they sometimes were content to use (see Piper, Theol. Stud. u. Krit. 1875, p. 79 sqq.); but themselves coined ‘deitas’ as the only adequate Latin representative of the Greek θεότης. We have Augustine’s express testimony to the fact (De Civ. Dei, vii. 1). ‘Hanc divinitatem, vel ut sic dixerim deitatem; nam et hoc verbo uti jam nostros non piget, ut de Graeco expressius transferant id quod illi θεότητα appellant, &c.;’ cf. x. 1, 2. But not to urge this, nor yet the different etymologies of the words, that one is τὸ εἰναί τινα θεόν, the other τὸ εἰναί τινα [or τι] θεῖον, which so clearly point to this difference in their meanings, examples, so far as they can be adduced, go to support the same. Both θεότης and θειότης, as in general the abstract words in every language, are of late introduction; and one of them, θεότης, is extremely rare. Indeed, only two examples of it from classical Greek have hitherto been brought, forward, one from Lucian (Icarom. 9); the other from Plutarch (De Def. Orac. 10): οὕτως ἐκ μὲν ἀνθρώπων εἰς ἥρωας, ἐκ δὲ ἡρώων εἰς δαίμονας, αἱ βελτίονες ψυχαὶ τὴν μεταβολὴν λαμβάνουσιν. ἐκ δὲ δαιμόνων ὀλίγαι μὲν ἔτι χρόνῳ πολλῷ δι᾽ ἀρετῆς καθαρθεῖσαι παντάπασι θεότητος μετέσχον: but to these a third, that also from Plutarch (De Isid. et Osir. 22), may be added. In all of these it expresses, in agreement with the view here asserted, Godhead in the absolute sense, or at all events in as absolute a sense as the heathen could conceive it. Θειότης is a very much commoner word; and its employment everywhere bears out the distinction here drawn. There is ever a manifestation of the divine, of some divine attributes, in that to which θειότης is attributed, but never absolute essential Deity. Thus Lucian (De Cal. 17) attributes θειότης to Hephaestion, when after his death Alexander would have raised him to the rank of a god; and Plutarch speaks of the θειότης τῆς ψυχῆς, De Plac. Phil. v. 1; cf. De Is. et Os. 2; Sull. 6; with various other passages to the like effect.

It may be observed, in conclusion, that whether this distinction was intended, as I am fully persuaded it was, by St. Paul or not, it established itself firmly in the later theological language of the Church—the Greek Fathers using never θειότης, but always θεότης, as alone adequately expressing the essential Godhead of the Three several Persons in the Holy Trinity.