Should You Believe In The Trinity?

[the oldtimer]

The bible is Watchtower dogma?
I have for many years now compared watchtower publications to the Bible. IMO, I would have to strongly disagree with that statement.

[DRS]

I have for many years now compared watchtower publications to the Bible. IMO, I would have to strongly disagree with that statement.

Talk to Jim I quoted the bible and he said that it was watchtower dogma

[the oldtimer]

Oh and that wisdom then had a hand in creation and was fond of the sons of men?

Do you also believe the king of tyre was really an angel in the garden?

I will repeat it slowly, WHERE DID WISDOM COME FROM??? In Pro.8, God is explaining that to us. Your statement has nothing at all to do with answering that simple question.

[the oldtimer]

Talk to Jim I quoted the bible and he said that it was watchtower dogma
Having read many of Jim's posts, I believe him to be a very humble person. Not at all street hardened. But, I have trouble thinking he meant that in the way you are using now!!!

[Angryamerican]

Of course, I disagree that Jesus ever said He was NOT God, but the fact is whatever verse you might use to give that impression will almost certainly be a verse in which Jesus was on earth AS A MAN! As I've said several times, when He was walking the earth which He Himself made, He obviously could not say He was God since He had MADE HIMSELF INTO A MAN!

But there are plenty of verses which say that Jesus WAS GOD in the beginning and that He made everything that was made, which mean He could not have been made.

Not true Dj, the writing of the nt was not written until after Jesus's death.

They were divinely inspired after jesus was back in heaven.

You don't think they were writing the nt while they walked with Christ do you ?

[Angryamerican]

The bible is Watchtower dogma?

What was that book that Tj Dj was using to try and prove their point about the trinity ?:D

[Angryamerican]

In Pro.8 God is explaining to us where wisdom comes from. Science tells us that you can not get wisdom where there is none. So, where does it come from? God, in Pro. 8, says it comes from, ME. God says, he created it. Are you saying He did not? "The God you think had to create wisdom". That statement implies that he did not, and that you know better. So tell us. Where did "wisdom" come from???? IMO, God had wisdom all along, but needed to put the explanation in terms we would understand. So, again I ask, where did wisdom come from.
I think that you already know that Pro. 8, when read in context is not talking about Jesus being created. So, no need to use that to duck the question. We, ain't buying it.

I am not sure what book you are reading but it is not from proverbs chapter 8,here i will post it again for you.

19. My fruit is better than gold-yea than fine gold- and my produce [is better] than choice silver. יט.
20. In the way of righteousness I will go, in the midst of the paths of justice. כ.
21. There is substance to give inheritance to those who love me, and I will fill their treasuries. כא.
22. The Lord acquired me at the beginning of His way, before His works of old. כב.
23. From the distant past I was enthroned, from the beginning, of those that preceded the earth. כג.
24. I was created when there were yet no deeps, when there were no fountains replete with water. כד.
25. I was created before the mountains were sunk, before the hills; כה.
26. when He had not yet made the land and the outsides and the beginning of the dust of the earth. כו.
27. When He established the heavens, there I was, when He drew a circle over the face of the deep; כז.
28. when He made the skies above firm, when He strengthened the fountains of the deep; כח.
29. when He gave the sea its boundary, and the water shall not transgress His command, when He established the foundations of the earth כט.
30. I was a nursling beside Him, and I was [His] delight every day, playing before Him at all times; ל.
31. playing in the habitable world of His earth, and [having] my delights with the children of man. לא.
32. And now, my children, hearken to me, and fortunate are those who observe my ways.

Now if you think an all knowing God had to create wisdom something is at a miss with your view.

[terri910]

It was Tuscon Jim that said "mere Watchtower dogma." And because it seems as though someone has misinterpreted TJ's post, perhaps it needs to be pointed to. Here is the actual post:
http://forums.hannity.com/showpost.php?p=55394841&postcount=22726

As you can see, DRS' post contains more than just verses from the Bible.

Tuscon Jim does not say that the Bible is "mere Watchtower dogma" but DRS' interpretation of those verses in scripture.

So the response of "Talk to Jim I quoted the bible and he said that it was watchtower dogma" does not accurately reflect your post, DRS, nor Tuscon Jim's response.

[Angryamerican]

I will repeat it slowly, WHERE DID WISDOM COME FROM??? In Pro.8, God is explaining that to us. Your statement has nothing at all to do with answering that simple question.

Wisdom comes from obeying God and his son Bingo!!!

But this wisdom was created.

[DispensationalJim]

What was that book that Tj Dj was using to try and prove their point about the trinity ?:D

It is called "The Trinity" by Edward Henry Bickersmith. I typed out and posted several pages of it about the Holy Spirit since several of you said that we had never shown The Holy Spirit to be God.

I will go back and repost if you like. I'll also check to see how many responses I got about it. I don't think there were many, but my memory seems to be failing me lately. :)

[DispensationalJim]

It was Tuscon Jim that said "mere Watchtower dogma." And because it seems as though someone has misinterpreted TJ's post, perhaps it needs to be pointed to. Here is the actual post:
http://forums.hannity.com/showpost.php?p=55394841&postcount=22726

As you can see, DRS' post contains more than just verses from the Bible.

Tuscon Jim does not say that the Bible is "mere Watchtower dogma" but DRS' interpretation of those verses in scripture.

So the response of "Talk to Jim I quoted the bible and he said that it was watchtower dogma" does not accurately reflect your post, DRS, nor Tuscon Jim's response.

Bless you, terri, for making that clear!

[terri910]

=DispensationalJim]
Of course, I disagree that Jesus ever said He was NOT God, but the fact is whatever verse you might use to give that impression will almost certainly be a verse in which Jesus was on earth AS A MAN! As I've said several times, when He was walking the earth which He Himself made, He obviously could not say He was God since He had MADE HIMSELF INTO A MAN!

But there are plenty of verses which say that Jesus WAS GOD in the beginning and that He made everything that was made, which mean He could not have been made.
Not true Dj, the writing of the nt was not written until after Jesus's death.

They were divinely inspired after jesus was back in heaven.

You don't think they were writing the nt while they walked with Christ do you ?
Angryamerican, DispensationalJim did not say that whatever NT verse you might use was written when Jesus was on earth as a man. He was saying it would be a verse in which Jesus was on earth as a man.

I see nothing within DJ's words that would lead anyone to believe he thought any of the NT, let alone any verses with Jesus speaking, was written on the spot at the time of Jesus' words.

[DRS]

I will repeat it slowly, WHERE DID WISDOM COME FROM??? In Pro.8, God is explaining that to us. Your statement has nothing at all to do with answering that simple question.

So since you answered my post asserting you believe that it is refering to literal wisdom than I guess you think the king of Tyre was also the angel in the garden

[Angryamerican]

It was Tuscon Jim that said "mere Watchtower dogma." And because it seems as though someone has misinterpreted TJ's post, perhaps it needs to be pointed to. Here is the actual post:
http://forums.hannity.com/showpost.php?p=55394841&postcount=22726

As you can see, DRS' post contains more than just verses from the Bible.

Tuscon Jim does not say that the Bible is "mere Watchtower dogma" but DRS' interpretation of those verses in scripture.

So the response of "Talk to Jim I quoted the bible and he said that it was watchtower dogma" does not accurately reflect your post, DRS, nor Tuscon Jim's response.

I disagree with you terri,that is not the first time Tj or oldtimer attacked Drs in such a fashion.

But this time it was scriptures from the bible that he called mere watch tower dogma and it offended me.

Please do not spin terri,or you will just further offend me. :confused: oops i forgot my other smiley face.

[Angryamerican]

It is called "The Trinity" by Edward Henry Bickersmith. I typed out and posted several pages of it about the Holy Spirit since several of you said that we had never shown The Holy Spirit to be God.

I will go back and repost if you like. I'll also check to see how many responses I got about it. I don't think there were many, but my memory seems to be failing me lately. :)

Oh please don't :angel:

[DispensationalJim]

Not true Dj, the writing of the nt was not written until after Jesus's death.

They were divinely inspired after jesus was back in heaven.

You don't think they were writing the nt while they walked with Christ do you ?

I'm sorry, AA, but I'm not sure of what you are trying to say.

Let me rephrase what I said before. The actual words of Jesus were quoted and written down by Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John. Jesus never actually wrote anything that we have today. Yes, it was all written by the authors of those books after Jesus went to Heaven.

I'm trying to say that the verses I believe you must use to CLAIM that Jesus said He was NOT God would have to be taken from those four books since those are where you find the RED letters, which are usually accepted as the words of Jesus.

If you have a verse from somewhere else to use, please share it.

[DRS]

It was Tuscon Jim that said "mere Watchtower dogma." And because it seems as though someone has misinterpreted TJ's post, perhaps it needs to be pointed to. Here is the actual post:
http://forums.hannity.com/showpost.php?p=55394841&postcount=22726

As you can see, DRS' post contains more than just verses from the Bible.

Tuscon Jim does not say that the Bible is "mere Watchtower dogma" but DRS' interpretation of those verses in scripture.

So the response of "Talk to Jim I quoted the bible and he said that it was watchtower dogma" does not accurately reflect your post, DRS, nor Tuscon Jim's response.


What I did post were bible verses that were to show who is actually speaking Isaiah and since DJim whom I was responding to said they were the same speaker in Isaiah and Revelation it was the bible that I quoted and nothing else

[DRS]

I'm sorry, AA, but I'm not sure of what you are trying to say.

Let me rephrase what I said before. The actual words of Jesus were quoted and written down by Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John. Jesus never actually wrote anything that we have today. Yes, it was all written by the authors of those books after Jesus went to Heaven.

I'm trying to say that the verses I believe you must use to CLAIM that Jesus said He was NOT God would have to be taken from those four books since those are where you find the RED letters, which are usually accepted as the words of Jesus.

If you have a verse from somewhere else to use, please share it.


Did the apostles write in red letters?

By the way how about the fact Jesus in heaven talks about his God in Revelation?

[Angryamerican]

Bless you, terri, for making that clear!


Yeah it was clear she was wrong.

[DispensationalJim]

[/I]

Angryamerican, DispensationalJim did not say that whatever NT verse you might use was written when Jesus was on earth as a man. He was saying it would be a verse in which Jesus was on earth as a man.

I see nothing within DJ's words that would lead anyone to believe he thought any of the NT, let alone any verses with Jesus speaking, was written on the spot at the time of Jesus' words.

Thanks again, terri.

I tried to clarify to AA, but you beat me to it. Good work! :)

[Angryamerican]

I'm sorry, AA, but I'm not sure of what you are trying to say.

Let me rephrase what I said before. The actual words of Jesus were quoted and written down by Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John. Jesus never actually wrote anything that we have today. Yes, it was all written by the authors of those books after Jesus went to Heaven.

I'm trying to say that the verses I believe you must use to CLAIM that Jesus said He was NOT God would have to be taken from those four books since those are where you find the RED letters, which are usually accepted as the words of Jesus.

If you have a verse from somewhere else to use, please share it.

So are you saying Jesus words while he was a man carried no weight ?

I have never understood that explanation respectfully of course :rolleyes:

[DRS]

3 “And to the angel of the congregation in Sar′dis write: These are the things that he says who has the seven spirits of God and the seven stars, ‘I know your deeds, that you have the name that you are alive, but you are dead. 2*Become watchful, and strengthen the things remaining that were ready to die, for I have not found your deeds fully performed before my God. 3*Therefore, continue mindful of how you have received and how you heard, and go on keeping [it], and repent. Certainly unless you wake up, I shall come as a thief, and you will not know at all at what hour I shall come upon you.
4*“‘Nevertheless, you do have a few names in Sar′dis that did not defile their outer garments, and they shall walk with me in white ones, because they are worthy. 5*He that conquers will thus be arrayed in white outer garments; and I will by no means blot out his name from the book of life, but I will make acknowledgment of his name before my Father and before his angels. 6*Let the one who has an ear hear what the spirit says to the congregations.’
7*“And to the angel of the congregation in Philadelphia write: These are the things he says who is holy, who is true, who has the key of David, who opens so that no one will shut, and shuts so that no one opens, 8*‘I know your deeds—look! I have set before you an opened door, which no one can shut—that you have a little power, and you kept my word and did not prove false to my name. 9*Look! I will give those from the synagogue of Satan who say they are Jews, and yet they are not but are lying—look! I will make them come and do obeisance before your feet and make them know I have loved you. 10*Because you kept the word about my endurance, I will also keep you from the hour of test, which is to come upon the whole inhabited earth, to put a test upon those dwelling on the earth. 11*I am coming quickly. Keep on holding fast what you have, that no one may take your crown.
12*“‘The one that conquers—I will make him a pillar in the temple of my God, and he will by no means go out [from it] anymore, and I will write upon him the name of my God and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem which descends out of heaven from my God, and that new name of mine. 13*Let the one who has an ear hear what the spirit says to the congregations.’

Are these verses in Red in other bibles?

[DispensationalJim]

Did the apostles write in red letters?

I think we can safely assume that the apostles didn't write in red letters -- unless they pricked their finger as they were writing -- :), but then again, they didn't write in English, either. The publishers of the King James many years ago thought it would be helpful to print the words of Jesus in red ink, so I'm just "spoiled" by that little "improvement" that has been in most of my KJBs. I don't think any of the other versions have done that, but I'm not positive.

[Angryamerican]

Did the apostles write in red letters?

By the way how about the fact Jesus in heaven talks about his God in Revelation?

That is just one of many leaks in the boat.:whistle:

[the oldtimer]

I am not sure what book you are reading but it is not from proverbs chapter 8,here i will post it again for you.

19. My fruit is better than gold-yea than fine gold- and my produce [is better] than choice silver. יט.
20. In the way of righteousness I will go, in the midst of the paths of justice. כ.
21. There is substance to give inheritance to those who love me, and I will fill their treasuries. כא.
22. The Lord acquired me at the beginning of His way, before His works of old. כב.
23. From the distant past I was enthroned, from the beginning, of those that preceded the earth. כג.
24. I was created when there were yet no deeps, when there were no fountains replete with water. כד.
25. I was created before the mountains were sunk, before the hills; כה.
26. when He had not yet made the land and the outsides and the beginning of the dust of the earth. כו.
27. When He established the heavens, there I was, when He drew a circle over the face of the deep; כז.
28. when He made the skies above firm, when He strengthened the fountains of the deep; כח.
29. when He gave the sea its boundary, and the water shall not transgress His command, when He established the foundations of the earth כט.
30. I was a nursling beside Him, and I was [His] delight every day, playing before Him at all times; ל.
31. playing in the habitable world of His earth, and [having] my delights with the children of man. לא.
32. And now, my children, hearken to me, and fortunate are those who observe my ways.

Now if you think an all knowing God had to create wisdom something is at a miss with your view.
You obviously did not read my post in which I said. IMO, God had wisdom all along. Meaning "forever". Since you will not answer the question of, "where do you think wisdom comes from"? Let us try this one. You have used Pro. 8 many times in the past to "PROVE" Jesus was "created". Now, you are using it to speak of "wisdom". So here is an easy question. Of which does Pro,8 speak. Jesus, or wisdom???

[terri910]

I disagree with you terri,that is not the first time Tj or oldtimer attacked Drs in such a fashion.

But this time it was scriptures from the bible that he called mere watch tower dogma and it offended me.

Please do not spin terri,or you will just further offend me. :confused:
This is not spin, Angryamerican. Just look at the words. Tell me you do not believe that trinitarians are stating merely conjecture and their opinions? Now, conjecture might not be a word I would use, since it does imply insufficient evidence -- and I figure different people require different levels of evidence. But, still, it is basically an opinion. And that is absolutely what DRS stated, and absolutely what we all state here. I figure it should be okay to remind any and everyone that a post that states someone's belief as fact, is, in fact, their belief, opinion, or interpretation.

And if you read the post I linked to you will see that DRS's last sentence in his post was his interpretation of the scripture he posted. Now, perhaps you want to argue that DRS' interpretation (his opinion) of that scripture does NOT line up with dogma espoused in the Watchtower. But I'm betting it does.

I find it difficult to believe that you actually think Tuscon Jim would claim any Bible verses as being "merely Watchtower dogma."

[DispensationalJim]

3 “And to the angel of the congregation in Sar′dis write: These are the things that he says who has the seven spirits of God and the seven stars, ‘I know your deeds, that you have the name that you are alive, but you are dead. 2*Become watchful, and strengthen the things remaining that were ready to die, for I have not found your deeds fully performed before my God. 3*Therefore, continue mindful of how you have received and how you heard, and go on keeping [it], and repent. Certainly unless you wake up, I shall come as a thief, and you will not know at all at what hour I shall come upon you.
4*“‘Nevertheless, you do have a few names in Sar′dis that did not defile their outer garments, and they shall walk with me in white ones, because they are worthy. 5*He that conquers will thus be arrayed in white outer garments; and I will by no means blot out his name from the book of life, but I will make acknowledgment of his name before my Father and before his angels. 6*Let the one who has an ear hear what the spirit says to the congregations.’
7*“And to the angel of the congregation in Philadelphia write: These are the things he says who is holy, who is true, who has the key of David, who opens so that no one will shut, and shuts so that no one opens, 8*‘I know your deeds—look! I have set before you an opened door, which no one can shut—that you have a little power, and you kept my word and did not prove false to my name. 9*Look! I will give those from the synagogue of Satan who say they are Jews, and yet they are not but are lying—look! I will make them come and do obeisance before your feet and make them know I have loved you. 10*Because you kept the word about my endurance, I will also keep you from the hour of test, which is to come upon the whole inhabited earth, to put a test upon those dwelling on the earth. 11*I am coming quickly. Keep on holding fast what you have, that no one may take your crown.
12*“‘The one that conquers—I will make him a pillar in the temple of my God, and he will by no means go out [from it] anymore, and I will write upon him the name of my God and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem which descends out of heaven from my God, and that new name of mine. 13*Let the one who has an ear hear what the spirit says to the congregations.’

Are these verses in Red in other bibles?

I do not think any other Bibles used that tool, but I'll check a few and see.

I will check those verses as soon as you tell me WHERE THEY ARE AT!! :)

[DispensationalJim]

So are you saying Jesus words while he was a man carried no weight ?

I have never understood that explanation respectfully of course :rolleyes:

I jus do not know what you are saying, AA. What explanation are you talking about?

The only way I am aware of that we can know what Jesus actually said while He was on this earth is to read THE BIBLE!!! Have you got some other source??

[Angryamerican]

You obviously did not read my post in which I said. IMO, God had wisdom all along. Meaning "forever". Since you will not answer the question of, "where do you think wisdom comes from"? Let us try this one. You have used Pro. 8 many times in the past to "PROVE" Jesus was "created". Now, you are using it to speak of "wisdom". So here is an easy question. Of which does Pro,8 speak. Jesus, or wisdom???

I did answer your question, and i will do it again,Wisdom comes from obeying Jehovah and his son Jesus.

[terri910]

I will check those verses as soon as you tell me WHERE THEY ARE AT!! :)
What a novel idea....:exclaim:

[DispensationalJim]

That is just one of many leaks in the boat.:whistle:

Am I missing something?

Are you sure you're not from another planet, AA? :)

[Angryamerican]

This is not spin, Angryamerican. Just look at the words. Tell me you do not believe that trinitarians are stating merely conjecture and their opinions? Now, conjecture might not be a word I would use, since it does imply insufficient evidence -- and I figure different people require different levels of evidence. But, still, it is basically an opinion. And that is absolutely what DRS stated, and absolutely what we all state here. I figure it should be okay to remind any and everyone that a post that states someone's belief as fact, is, in fact, their belief, opinion, or interpretation.

And if you read the post I linked to you will see that DRS's last sentence in his post was his interpretation of the scripture he posted. Now, perhaps you want to argue that DRS' interpretation (his opinion) of that scripture does NOT line up with dogma espoused in the Watchtower. But I'm betting it does.

I find it difficult to believe that you actually think Tuscon Jim would claim any Bible verses as being "merely Watchtower dogma."

Did the scriptures Drs post,did they support his view ? Enough said.

[the oldtimer]

So since you answered my post asserting you believe that it is refering to literal wisdom than I guess you think the king of Tyre was also the angel in the garden
Please explain, what does that have to do with anything we are talking about???

[terri910]

Did the scriptures Drs post,did they support his view ? Enough said.
Not quite 'enough said'.

The answer is: "Only if one interprets them the same way DRS does," Angryamerican.

[Angryamerican]

I jus do not know what you are saying, AA. What explanation are you talking about?

The only way I am aware of that we can know what Jesus actually said while He was on this earth is to read THE BIBLE!!! Have you got some other source??

No you say some scriptures meant something else to support your view while Christ was a man and on earth.

And why was Jesus still calling Jehovah his God and Father when he was back in heaven ? he was no longer a man.

[Angryamerican]

Am I missing something?

Are you sure you're not from another planet, AA? :)

Maybe you should read a little slower before posting.

[Angryamerican]

Am I missing something?

Are you sure you're not from another planet, AA? :)

Let me give you an example Dj.

On one hand you say Jesus is God, but when he was a man he was not God, So when jesus says no man has ever seen God or heard his voice at ANYTIME how can you ignore that ?

Whether God was in the form of a spirit or he was in the form of a man is he not still God ?

[terri910]

On one hand you say Jesus is God, but when he was a man he was not God...
Could you please direct me to the post where DispensationalJim said that Jesus was not God when he was a man?

This may be exactly what DJ said -- I know he and I differ on some beliefs. But I did not see it myself, and it sounds more like a misunderstanding of something a Trinitarian might have said.

[terri910]

Maybe you should read a little slower before posting.
I think this would be good advice for everyone.




She said pointedly.

[the oldtimer]

So since you answered my post asserting you believe that it is refering to literal wisdom than I guess you think the king of Tyre was also the angel in the garden
Here is another question I bet you won't answer. If not literal wisdom, of what does Prov.8 speak??

[DRS]

I do not think any other Bibles used that tool, but I'll check a few and see.

I will check those verses as soon as you tell me WHERE THEY ARE AT!! :)

I asked about Revelation did I not in post 22770 and the term my God

[DRS]

Here is another question I bet you won't answer. If not literal wisdom, of what does Prov.8 speak??

That passage is a referral to Jesus just like the passage in Ezekiel is referring to the king of Tyre refers to someone else besides the kirg of Tyre for that short duration

[Angryamerican]

Could you please direct me to the post where DispensationalJim said that Jesus was not God when he was a man?

This may be exactly what DJ said -- I know he and I differ on some beliefs. But I did not see it myself, and it sounds more like a misunderstanding of something a Trinitarian might have said.

Do you believe Jesus when he said no man has ever seen nor heard the voice of God at ANYTIME ?

[DRS]

Not quite 'enough said'.

The answer is: "Only if one interprets them the same way DRS does," Angryamerican.

DJim already stated the speaker in Isaiah and Revelation are the same so it is not a matter of me interpreting anything

[Angryamerican]

Here is another question I bet you won't answer. If not literal wisdom, of what does Prov.8 speak??


It speaks of the son of God being created before all other things being created.

[the oldtimer]

I jus do not know what you are saying, AA. What explanation are you talking about?

The only way I am aware of that we can know what Jesus actually said while He was on this earth is to read THE BIBLE!!! Have you got some other source??
IMO, that would be the watchtower.

[terri910]

DJim already stated the speaker in Isaiah and Revelation are the same so it is not a matter of me interpreting anything
Are you certain? What has DispensationalJim said in that regard?

I have a feeling there is a great deal of miscommunication going on here.

[Angryamerican]

IMO, that would be the watchtower.


No, i use the bible sorry,once again you are wrong.

But i have to admit it,i get a chuckle out of your posts.

[the oldtimer]

I did answer your question, and i will do it again,Wisdom comes from obeying Jehovah and his son Jesus.
OK, and where does the wisdom to obey God come from?

[terri910]

Do you believe Jesus when he said no man has ever seen nor heard the voice of God at ANYTIME ?
Do you always ignore requests? I asked you to locate the post where DispensationalJim said what you asserted he said.

I think it is extremely important that when we claim "So-and-so said this!" that we'd better be able to show where So-and-so actually did say it.

Are you able to provide a post of DispensationalJim's where he says Jesus was not God when he was a man? I simply want to read it for myself. (Or, if DispensationalJim would like to reply to this post and state it again, that would be fine)

[the oldtimer]

Whether God was in the form of a spirit or he was in the form of a man is he not still God ?
Logically, and within the guide lines of your belief. When was God, in the form of a man?

[Angryamerican]

Logically, and within the guide lines of your belief. When was God, in the form of a man?

He was never in the form of a man, and that is why Jesus was not God.

[Angryamerican]

OK, and where does the wisdom to obey God come from?


Already answered this.:pray:

[DRS]

Are you certain? What has DispensationalJim said in that regard?

I have a feeling there is a great deal of miscommunication going on here.

http://forums.hannity.com/showpost.php?p=55377311&postcount=22694

You can even ask DJIM if he think the speakers are the same

You could also aske him if he believes Jesus ceased being God when he came to Earth

[Angryamerican]

Do you always ignore requests? I asked you to locate the post where DispensationalJim said what you asserted he said.

I think it is extremely important that when we claim "So-and-so said this!" that we'd better be able to show where So-and-so actually did say it.

Are you able to provide a post of DispensationalJim's where he says Jesus was not God when he was a man? I simply want to read it for myself. (Or, if DispensationalJim would like to reply to this post and state it again, that would be fine)

Terri,they have said this too many times to have to prove it to you.

[Angryamerican]

Do you always ignore requests? I asked you to locate the post where DispensationalJim said what you asserted he said.

I think it is extremely important that when we claim "So-and-so said this!" that we'd better be able to show where So-and-so actually did say it.

Are you able to provide a post of DispensationalJim's where he says Jesus was not God when he was a man? I simply want to read it for myself. (Or, if DispensationalJim would like to reply to this post and state it again, that would be fine)

Ok terri,you have not read some of their posts where they state that it is because jesus was a man when he said that ?

Dj said that earlier today.

And are you gonna answer my question to you ?

[the oldtimer]

It speaks of the son of God being created before all other things being created.
AA, I have seen in your posts that when you need you say pro. 8, speaks of wisdom, then when that does not fit the context of what you are saying, you say it speaks of Jesus being created. What I am trying to establish, is which you really believe. So, all will know what you are talking about, will you please explain and then stop switching. Because double speak, conveys nothing.

[DRS]

The other interesting thing is those in heaven say Jehovah is their God in Revelation when you see this uttered 4 times Hal‧le‧lou‧i‧a′
and those heavven speaking of their God

[terri910]

Terri,they have said this too many times to have to prove it to you.
Who is this "they" you speak of?

You've mentioned DispensationalJim....who else?

And, I'm afraid that until DJ comes and confirms what you have said, your claim is suspect.

[DRS]

AA, I have seen in your posts that when you need you say pro. 8, speaks of wisdom, then when that does not fit the context of what you are saying, you say it speaks of Jesus being created. What I am trying to establish, is which you really believe. So, all will know what you are talking about, will you please explain and then stop switching. Because double speak, conveys nothing.

This passage is from Ezekiel 28 do you think this entire passage is referring to the literal king of Tyre or is part of it dealing with Satan?

10*“‘The deaths of uncircumcised ones you will die by the hand of strangers, for I myself have spoken,’ is the utterance of the Sovereign Lord Jehovah.”
11*And the word of Jehovah continued to occur to me, saying: 12*“Son of man, lift up a dirge concerning the king of Tyre, and you must say to him, ‘This is what the Sovereign Lord Jehovah has said:
“‘“You are sealing up a pattern, full of wisdom and perfect in beauty. 13*In E′den, the garden of God, you proved to be. Every precious stone was your covering, ruby, topaz and jasper; chrys′o‧lite, onyx and jade; sapphire, turquoise and emerald; and of gold was the workmanship of your settings and your sockets in you. In the day of your being created they were made ready. 14*You are the anointed cherub that is covering, and I have set you. On the holy mountain of God you proved to be. In the midst of fiery stones you walked about. 15*You were faultless in your ways from the day of your being created until unrighteousness was found in you.
16*“‘“Because of the abundance of your sales goods they filled the midst of you with violence, and you began to sin. And I shall put you as profane out of the mountain of God, and I shall destroy you, O cherub that is covering, from the midst of the fiery stones.
17*“‘“Your heart became haughty because of your beauty. You brought your wisdom to ruin on account of your beaming splendor. Onto the earth I will throw you. Before kings I will set you, [for them] to look upon you.
18*“‘“Owing to the abundance of your errors, because of the injustice of your sales goods, you have profaned your sanctuaries. And I shall bring forth a fire from the midst of you. It is what must devour you. And I shall make you ashes upon the earth before the eyes of all those seeing you. 19*As for all those knowing you among the peoples, they will certainly stare in amazement at you. Sudden terrors are what you must become, and you will be no more to time indefinite.”’”
20*And the word of Jehovah continued to occur to me, saying: 21*“Son of man, set your face toward Si′don, and prophesy against her. 22*And you must say, ‘This is what the Sovereign Lord Jehovah has said: “Here I am against you, O Si′don, and I shall certainly be glorified in the midst of you; and people will have to know that I am Jehovah when I execute acts of judgment in her and I am actually sanctified in her. 23*And I will send pestilence into her and blood into her streets. And the slain one must fall in the midst of her by the sword against her on every side; and people will have to know that I am Jehovah. 24*And no more will there prove to be to the house of Israel a malignant prickle or a painful thorn out of all those round about them, those who are treating them with scorn; and people will have to know that I am the Sovereign Lord Jehovah.”’

[terri910]

Ok terri,you have not read some of their posts where they state that it is because jesus was a man when he said that ?
I'm afraid I have no idea what the pronoun "it" refers to in your sentence above, so I cannot tell you if I have read the posts you are thinking of.

Dj said that earlier today.
Then it shouldn't take you too long to find the quote.


And are you gonna answer my question to you ?
I would have to understand the context of the conversation first. That would mean actually knowing what the people said. You haven't helped in that regard.

[the oldtimer]

Whether God was in the form of a spirit or he was in the form of a man is he not still God ?
So, you are admitting that this was an illogical statement. Something you just threw out there. Because it is one of the few things you say that I agree with.

[the oldtimer]

Already answered this.:pray:
No read it again. It is a different question. If we get wisdom from obeying God, Then where does the knowledge that we need to obey God come from?:question::question::question:

[DispensationalJim]

Let me give you an example Dj.

On one hand you say Jesus is God, but when he was a man he was not God, So when jesus says no man has ever seen God or heard his voice at ANYTIME how can you ignore that ?

Whether God was in the form of a spirit or he was in the form of a man is he not still God ?

Thank you, AA, for clarifying yourself.

My belief is based on this passage:
Phil. 2:5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
Phil. 2:6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
Phil. 2:7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
Phil. 2:8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

Now, I recall that many of you think the King James is a poor translation, so here is that passage again from The World English Bible:
Phil. 2:5 Have this in your mind, which was also in Christ Jesus,
Phil. 2:6 who, existing in the form of God, didn’t consider it robbery to be equal with God,
Phil. 2:7 but emptied himself, taking the form of a servant, being made in the likeness of men.
Phil. 2:8 And being found in human form, he humbled himself, becoming obedient to death, yes, the death of the cross.

Please notice verse 7 which says that Christ EMPTIED HIMSELF.

Now, if He WAS EXISTING IN THE FORM OF GOD, would that not mean that He WAS GOD?

But then He "emptied Himself," and "took the form of a servant, being made in the likeness of men." I checked many translations, including the New World, Douay/Rheims, and New American Bibles, and they all say "emptied Himself."

What do you think He emptied Himself of???

Here is that passage from the Weymouth translation:
Phil. 2:5 Let the same disposition be in you which was in Christ Jesus.
Phil. 2:6 Although from the beginning He had the nature of God He did not reckon His equality with God a treasure to be tightly grasped.
Phil. 2:7 Nay, He stripped Himself of His glory, and took on Him the nature of a bondservant by becoming a man like other men.
Phil. 2:8 And being recognized as truly human, He humbled Himself and even stooped to die; yes, to die on a cross.

My conclusion is that He emptied Himself of His deity because God cannot die and He knew He needed to die FOR OUR SINS. Aren't you thankful that He died for your sins? :)

[the oldtimer]

This passage is from Ezekiel 28 do you think this entire passage is referring to the literal king of Tyre or is part of it dealing with Satan?

10*“‘The deaths of uncircumcised ones you will die by the hand of strangers, for I myself have spoken,’ is the utterance of the Sovereign Lord Jehovah.”
11*And the word of Jehovah continued to occur to me, saying: 12*“Son of man, lift up a dirge concerning the king of Tyre, and you must say to him, ‘This is what the Sovereign Lord Jehovah has said:
“‘“You are sealing up a pattern, full of wisdom and perfect in beauty. 13*In E′den, the garden of God, you proved to be. Every precious stone was your covering, ruby, topaz and jasper; chrys′o‧lite, onyx and jade; sapphire, turquoise and emerald; and of gold was the workmanship of your settings and your sockets in you. In the day of your being created they were made ready. 14*You are the anointed cherub that is covering, and I have set you. On the holy mountain of God you proved to be. In the midst of fiery stones you walked about. 15*You were faultless in your ways from the day of your being created until unrighteousness was found in you.
16*“‘“Because of the abundance of your sales goods they filled the midst of you with violence, and you began to sin. And I shall put you as profane out of the mountain of God, and I shall destroy you, O cherub that is covering, from the midst of the fiery stones.
17*“‘“Your heart became haughty because of your beauty. You brought your wisdom to ruin on account of your beaming splendor. Onto the earth I will throw you. Before kings I will set you, [for them] to look upon you.
18*“‘“Owing to the abundance of your errors, because of the injustice of your sales goods, you have profaned your sanctuaries. And I shall bring forth a fire from the midst of you. It is what must devour you. And I shall make you ashes upon the earth before the eyes of all those seeing you. 19*As for all those knowing you among the peoples, they will certainly stare in amazement at you. Sudden terrors are what you must become, and you will be no more to time indefinite.”’”
20*And the word of Jehovah continued to occur to me, saying: 21*“Son of man, set your face toward Si′don, and prophesy against her. 22*And you must say, ‘This is what the Sovereign Lord Jehovah has said: “Here I am against you, O Si′don, and I shall certainly be glorified in the midst of you; and people will have to know that I am Jehovah when I execute acts of judgment in her and I am actually sanctified in her. 23*And I will send pestilence into her and blood into her streets. And the slain one must fall in the midst of her by the sword against her on every side; and people will have to know that I am Jehovah. 24*And no more will there prove to be to the house of Israel a malignant prickle or a painful thorn out of all those round about them, those who are treating them with scorn; and people will have to know that I am the Sovereign Lord Jehovah.”’
Within the confines of logic. What are you talking about:question::question::question:

[Angryamerican]

AA, I have seen in your posts that when you need you say pro. 8, speaks of wisdom, then when that does not fit the context of what you are saying, you say it speaks of Jesus being created. What I am trying to establish, is which you really believe. So, all will know what you are talking about, will you please explain and then stop switching. Because double speak, conveys nothing.

It is self explanatory if you just read it



19. My fruit is better than gold-yea than fine gold- and my produce [is better] than choice silver. יט.
20. In the way of righteousness I will go, in the midst of the paths of justice. כ.
21. There is substance to give inheritance to those who love me, and I will fill their treasuries. כא.
22. The Lord acquired me at the beginning of His way, before His works of old. כב.
23. From the distant past I was enthroned, from the beginning, of those that preceded the earth. כג.
24. I was created when there were yet no deeps, when there were no fountains replete with water. כד.
25. I was created before the mountains were sunk, before the hills; כה.
26. when He had not yet made the land and the outsides and the beginning of the dust of the earth. כו.
27. When He established the heavens, there I was, when He drew a circle over the face of the deep; כז.
28. when He made the skies above firm, when He strengthened the fountains of the deep; כח.
29. when He gave the sea its boundary, and the water shall not transgress His command, when He established the foundations of the earth כט.
30. I was a nursling beside Him, and I was [His] delight every day, playing before Him at all times; ל.
31. playing in the habitable world of His earth, and [having] my delights with the children of man. לא.
32. And now, my children, hearken to me, and fortunate are those who observe my ways. לב.
33. Hearken to discipline and become wise, and do not put it to naught. לג.
34. Fortunate is the man who listens to me to watch by my doors day by day, to watch the doorposts of my entrances. לד.
35. For he who has found me has found life, and he has obtained favor from the Lord. לה.
36. But he who sins against me robs his soul; all who hate me, love death."


Who would you say the wisdom of God is ?

Luk 11:46 And He said, Woe to you also, lawyers! For you load men with burdens grievous to be carried, and you yourselves do not touch the burdens with one of your fingers.
Luk 11:47 Woe to you! For you build the tombs of the prophets, and your fathers killed them.
Luk 11:48 Truly you bear witness that you consent to the deeds of your fathers. For they indeed killed them, and you build their tombs.
Luk 11:49 Therefore the wisdom of God also said, I will send them prophets and apostles, and some of them they shall slay and persecute,


Who would you say the wisdom of God is ?

1Co 1:24 But to them, the called-out ones, both Jews and Greeks, Christ is the power of God and the wisdom of God.

[terri910]

What I did post were bible verses that were to show who is actually speaking Isaiah and since DJim whom I was responding to said they were the same speaker in Isaiah and Revelation it was the bible that I quoted and nothing else
Just noticed this post (while trying to go back and find the post AngryAmerican claims DispensationalJim posted).

DRS, I posted a link to Tuscon Jim's reply where he quotes your post. When you say "it was the bible that I quoted and nothing else" you seem to be attempting to mislead -- surely you are not doing that. You quote the Bible....but the last sentence you give your opinion of the scriptures you have quoted. You may be able (technically) to say you "quoted" nothing else, but anyone with eyes can read that your post contained more than a quotation of verses from the Bible. Unless you are claiming that Tuscon Jim altered his quotation of your post and added a sentence that wasn't there?

[DispensationalJim]

I'm afraid I have no idea what the pronoun "it" refers to in your sentence above, so I cannot tell you if I have read the posts you are thinking of.


Then it shouldn't take you too long to find the quote.



I would have to understand the context of the conversation first. That would mean actually knowing what the people said. You haven't helped in that regard.

Dear terri, I so appreciate your efforts in trying to get AA to use quotes rather than his "recollection."

I tried to answer as clearly as I could in my last post, so I hope you can see what I believe, though it may not be in total agreement with your view.

But thanks again for your diligent efforts.

[Angryamerican]

Who is this "they" you speak of?

You've mentioned DispensationalJim....who else?

And, I'm afraid that until DJ comes and confirms what you have said, your claim is suspect.

Many trinitarians do when hit with scripture like the one i asked you about.

[Angryamerican]

So, you are admitting that this was an illogical statement. Something you just threw out there. Because it is one of the few things you say that I agree with.

Nope just trying to reason with you trinitarians.

[Angryamerican]

No read it again. It is a different question. If we get wisdom from obeying God, Then where does the knowledge that we need to obey God come from?:question::question::question:

The son of God,the messiah, the Christ, the word of God,the word,the Angel of the Lord.

[Angryamerican]

Thank you, AA, for clarifying yourself.

My belief is based on this passage:
Phil. 2:5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
Phil. 2:6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
Phil. 2:7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
Phil. 2:8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

Now, I recall that many of you think the King James is a poor translation, so here is that passage again from The World English Bible:
Phil. 2:5 Have this in your mind, which was also in Christ Jesus,
Phil. 2:6 who, existing in the form of God, didn’t consider it robbery to be equal with God,
Phil. 2:7 but emptied himself, taking the form of a servant, being made in the likeness of men.
Phil. 2:8 And being found in human form, he humbled himself, becoming obedient to death, yes, the death of the cross.

Please notice verse 7 which says that Christ EMPTIED HIMSELF.

Now, if He WAS EXISTING IN THE FORM OF GOD, would that not mean that He WAS GOD?

But then He "emptied Himself," and "took the form of a servant, being made in the likeness of men." I checked many translations, including the New World, Douay/Rheims, and New American Bibles, and they all say "emptied Himself."

What do you think He emptied Himself of???

Here is that passage from the Weymouth translation:
Phil. 2:5 Let the same disposition be in you which was in Christ Jesus.
Phil. 2:6 Although from the beginning He had the nature of God He did not reckon His equality with God a treasure to be tightly grasped.
Phil. 2:7 Nay, He stripped Himself of His glory, and took on Him the nature of a bondservant by becoming a man like other men.
Phil. 2:8 And being recognized as truly human, He humbled Himself and even stooped to die; yes, to die on a cross.

My conclusion is that He emptied Himself of His deity because God cannot die and He knew He needed to die FOR OUR SINS. Aren't you thankful that He died for your sins? :)

So jesus the man was he God ?

[Angryamerican]

Within the confines of logic. What are you talking about:question::question::question:

Read it and then answer the question.

[DRS]

Just noticed this post (while trying to go back and find the post AngryAmerican claims DispensationalJim posted).

DRS, I posted a link to Tuscon Jim's reply where he quotes your post. When you say "it was the bible that I quoted and nothing else" you seem to be attempting to mislead -- surely you are not doing that. You quote the Bible....but the last sentence you give your opinion of the scriptures you have quoted. You may be able (technically) to say you "quoted" nothing else, but anyone with eyes can read that your post contained more than a quotation of verses from the Bible. Unless you are claiming that Tuscon Jim altered his quotation of your post and added a sentence that wasn't there?

The other way to look at it, since DJim said the speaker in both cases in one and the same and Isaiah says it is Jehovah speaking then TJim could say speaking Watchtower dogma :D

[terri910]

The other way to look at it, since DJim said the speaker in both cases in one and the same and Isaiah says it is Jehovah speaking then TJim could say speaking Watchtower dogma :D
Do you often look at things in such a convoluted manner, DRS? :razz: Still, if it gets you where you want to be.....

[terri910]

Thank you, AA, for clarifying yourself.

My belief is based on this passage:
Phil. 2:5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
Phil. 2:6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
Phil. 2:7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
Phil. 2:8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

Now, I recall that many of you think the King James is a poor translation, so here is that passage again from The World English Bible:
Phil. 2:5 Have this in your mind, which was also in Christ Jesus,
Phil. 2:6 who, existing in the form of God, didn’t consider it robbery to be equal with God,
Phil. 2:7 but emptied himself, taking the form of a servant, being made in the likeness of men.
Phil. 2:8 And being found in human form, he humbled himself, becoming obedient to death, yes, the death of the cross.

Please notice verse 7 which says that Christ EMPTIED HIMSELF.

Now, if He WAS EXISTING IN THE FORM OF GOD, would that not mean that He WAS GOD?

But then He "emptied Himself," and "took the form of a servant, being made in the likeness of men." I checked many translations, including the New World, Douay/Rheims, and New American Bibles, and they all say "emptied Himself."

What do you think He emptied Himself of???

Here is that passage from the Weymouth translation:
Phil. 2:5 Let the same disposition be in you which was in Christ Jesus.
Phil. 2:6 Although from the beginning He had the nature of God He did not reckon His equality with God a treasure to be tightly grasped.
Phil. 2:7 Nay, He stripped Himself of His glory, and took on Him the nature of a bondservant by becoming a man like other men.
Phil. 2:8 And being recognized as truly human, He humbled Himself and even stooped to die; yes, to die on a cross.

My conclusion is that He emptied Himself of His deity because God cannot die and He knew He needed to die FOR OUR SINS. Aren't you thankful that He died for your sins? :)
Just so I am clear on your belief, DispensationalJim, it does appear as though you do not believe that Jesus was fully God and fully man. Is that an accurate statement or would you clarify it further for me?

[terri910]

Dear terri, I so appreciate your efforts in trying to get AA to use quotes rather than his "recollection."

I tried to answer as clearly as I could in my last post, so I hope you can see what I believe, though it may not be in total agreement with your view.

But thanks again for your diligent efforts.
Well, I did say that you and I do not always agree in our beliefs; I'm afraid I do not always remember exactly where -- and that memory lapse isn't just with you. I have more difficulty matching beliefs with names than I might have trying to match up beliefs with faces. And I'm not all THAT great at faces. :eek:

[terri910]

Many trinitarians do when hit with scripture like the one i asked you about.
Many trinitarians "do" what? Once again, your reply seems completelhy disconnected to my post that you've quoted.

[Angryamerican]

Just so I am clear on your belief, DispensationalJim, it does appear as though you do not believe that Jesus was fully God and fully man. Is that an accurate statement or would you clarify it further for me?

So you believe Jesus and God are fully God ?

I will say this, you trinitarians are consistent in creating your own terms :D

[Angryamerican]

Many trinitarians "do" what? Once again, your reply seems completelhy disconnected to my post that you've quoted.

Well it's the same question i have been asking you all day.

[terri910]

So you don't believe Jesus and God are both fully God,but i have to worn you neither of these terms appear in scriptures either.
Excuse me? What exactly in my question to DispensationalJim, asking for clarification,do you get the idea that I do not believe Jesus and God are both fully God?:confused:

And, thanks for the warning, Angryamerican. I am hardly worried that a word doesn't appear in the scripture. It is the ideas being taught that I am concerned with.

I will say this, you trinitarians are consistent in creating your own terms :D
Yes, but at least we don't create our own doctrine! :D

[terri910]

Well it's the same question i have been asking you all day.
Angryamerican, you have now reached an all time disconnect. There is not one thread of continuity in this conversation. I'm sure there is in your head, but it simply is not coming out in your posts. I want to understand what you are saying, or asking, but I just can't find any relationship between one post and the next.

[Angryamerican]

I have the same question for all of you believers that Jesus is God crowd.


How can you ration your belief with Jesus's words here?

1Jn 4:12 No one has seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwells in us, and His love is perfected in us.


Joh 5:37 And He sending Me, the Father Himself, has borne witness of Me. Neither have you heard His voice at any time nor seen His shape.

Joh 1:18 No one has seen God at any time; the Only-begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him.

[Angryamerican]

Excuse me? What exactly in my question to DispensationalJim, asking for clarification,do you get the idea that I do not believe Jesus and God are both fully God?:confused:

And, thanks for the warning, Angryamerican. I am hardly worried that a word doesn't appear in the scripture. It is the ideas being taught that I am concerned with.


Yes, but at least we don't create our own doctrine! :D

Ok then surely you have an answer for my question :D

[gpd®]

I have the same question for all of you believers that Jesus is God crowd.


How can you ration your belief with Jesus's words here?

1Jn 4:12 No one has seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwells in us, and His love is perfected in us.


Joh 5:37 And He sending Me, the Father Himself, has borne witness of Me. Neither have you heard His voice at any time nor seen His shape.

Joh 1:18 No one has seen God at any time; the Only-begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him.

I have had many bosses from middle-managers to CEO's that will get down in the mud with the workers.

They will get their hands dirty on the sales phone, they will work in the warehouse during the year end push.

Anyone looking from the outside in would never guess that they held such a high position.

In fact, they would argue, that there is no way that dude is a CEO, he is pulling orders, packing boxes, and loading UPS trucks.

My point is that I think Jesus was portraying that the future leaders of the church need to be the humblest of servants.

It is okay if you think differently, I don't.

[Angryamerican]

Angryamerican, you have now reached an all time disconnect. There is not one thread of continuity in this conversation. I'm sure there is in your head, but it simply is not coming out in your posts. I want to understand what you are saying, or asking, but I just can't find any relationship between one post and the next.


Was Jesus God ?


1Jn 4:12 No one has seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwells in us, and His love is perfected in us.


Joh 5:37 And He sending Me, the Father Himself, has borne witness of Me. Neither have you heard His voice at any time nor seen His shape.

Joh 1:18 No one has seen God at any time; the Only-begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him.

If you say he was not God, i would like for you to explain how God stop being God.

Is it not fair to say, that whether God is in the form of a man or a spirit is he not still God ?

Then if you say he is was God,how come he said no one has ever seen nor heard the voice of God at ANYTIME ?

[gpd®]

Was Jesus God ?


1Jn 4:12 No one has seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwells in us, and His love is perfected in us.


Joh 5:37 And He sending Me, the Father Himself, has borne witness of Me. Neither have you heard His voice at any time nor seen His shape.

Joh 1:18 No one has seen God at any time; the Only-begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him.

If you say he was not God, i would like for you to explain how God stop being God.

Is it not fair to say, that whether God is in the form of a man or a spirit is he not still God ?

Then if you say he is was God,how come he said no one has ever seen nor heard the voice of God at ANYTIME ?

Of course no one has ever seen God. We cannot even begin to look upon God without our glorified bodies.

The people were looking about God manifested in flesh. Big difference.

eta: He didn't stop being God, He changed our visual perception of Him.

"Blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God."

[terri910]

I have the same question for all of you believers that Jesus is God crowd.I imagine that "crowd" will give you various answers to you Jesus is not God crowd. :rolleyes:


How can you ration your belief with Jesus's words here?

1Jn 4:12 No one has seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwells in us, and His love is perfected in us. I do not believe these words are attributed to Jesus, Angryamerican. But, I do believe they are part of the inerrant word of God. And I believe they speak to the idea that Christian love confirms our knowledge of God, whose nature -- whose very being -- is love. When people "saw" Jesus' physical body here on earth, I believe they were seeing part of the nature of his full humanity. It does not necessarily mean that when one looked at the physical body that one was "seeing" his full nature as God. IMO, Jesus still revealed his nature as fully God, just as his fully human nature was obvious. Otherwise, how could He have said (and these are Jesus' words):
"If you know me, then you will also know my Father. From now on you do know him and have seen him."(John 14:7)
Jesus said to him, "Have I been with you for so long a time and you still do not know me, Philip? Whoever has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'?"{John 14:9)
"The Father and I are one."(John 10:30)


Joh 5:37 And He sending Me, the Father Himself, has borne witness of Me. Neither have you heard His voice at any time nor seen His shape.Jesus may have been saying that no one has heard the voice or seen the shape (things of a physical human nature) of God the Father. But considering who He is talking to and his next words: "and you do not have his word remaining in you, because you do not believe in the one whom he has sent." it might be that the people he is speaking to have not recognized God even as He stands there before them because they do not believe....

Joh 1:18 No one has seen God at any time; the Only-begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him.Once again, not Jesus' words (the next verse tells you this is the testimony of John). The Son, he says, has revealed the God that no one has seen. It is also said, in the very first verses of that first chapter:
1 In the beginning was the Word (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09328a.htm): and the Word (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09328a.htm) was with God (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04611a.htm): and the Word (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09328a.htm) was God (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04611a.htm).
2 The same was in the beginning with God (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04611a.htm).
3 All things were made by him: and without him was made nothing that was made.
4 In him was life: and the life was the light of men (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09580c.htm).
5 And the light shineth in darkness: and the darkness did not comprehend it.Which, as you know, we "Jesus is God crowd" believe says exactly that.

[DispensationalJim]

I have the same question for all of you believers that Jesus is God crowd.


How can you ration your belief with Jesus's words here?

1Jn 4:12 No one has seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwells in us, and His love is perfected in us.


Joh 5:37 And He sending Me, the Father Himself, has borne witness of Me. Neither have you heard His voice at any time nor seen His shape.

Joh 1:18 No one has seen God at any time; the Only-begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him.

It seems to me, AA, that you have a serious conundrum on your hands, there.

How do YOU rationalize this verse then? BTW, AA, I think "rationalize" is the word you should have used above -- look up "ration" and see.
• John 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?

=====================================

And then here is another conundrum for you, AA:

• Gen. 32:30 And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.
• Gen. 33:10 And Jacob said, Nay, I pray thee, if now I have found grace in thy sight, then receive my present at my hand: for therefore I have seen thy face, as though I had seen the face of God, and thou wast pleased with me.
• Ex. 33:11 And the LORD spake unto Moses face to face, as a man speaketh unto his friend. And he turned again into the camp: but his servant Joshua, the son of Nun, a young man, departed not out of the tabernacle.
• Ex. 24:11 And upon the nobles of the children of Israel he laid not his hand: also they saw God, and did eat and drink.
• Num. 14:14 And they will tell it to the inhabitants of this land: for they have heard that thou LORD art AMONG THIS PEOPLE, THAT THOU LORD art seen face to face, and that thy cloud standeth over them, and that thou goest before them, by day time in a pillar of a cloud, and in a pillar of fire by night.
• Deut. 5:4 The LORD talked with you face to face in the mount out of the midst of the fire,

================================

So, AA, can you "rationalize" those verses with your "No man can see God"?

[the oldtimer]

The son of God,the messiah, the Christ, the word of God,the word,the Angel of the Lord.
Again, not an answer.

[the oldtimer]

Read it and then answer the question.
You couldn't figure it out either, huh!!!!

[the oldtimer]

I have the same question for all of you believers that Jesus is God crowd.


How can you ration your belief with Jesus's words here?

1Jn 4:12 No one has seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwells in us, and His love is perfected in us.


Joh 5:37 And He sending Me, the Father Himself, has borne witness of Me. Neither have you heard His voice at any time nor seen His shape.

Joh 1:18 No one has seen God at any time; the Only-begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him.
I thought you might enjoy seeing what the context is of the verse you quote. John5. 36, "But I have greater witness than that of John: for the works which the father hath given me to finish, that same works that I do, bear witness of me, that the father hath sent me. 37: And the Father himself which hath sent me. hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape. 38: And ye have not his word abiding in you: for whom he hath sent, ye believe not. 39:
search the scriptures: for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me. 40: And ye will not come to me that ye might have life. 41. I receive not honor from men. 42: But I know you, that ye have not the love of God in you. 43: I am come in my fathers name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.
It would seem to me that you are totally ignoring the context of the passage, because what Jesus is doing is chastising those who refuse to see Him as the witness of him shows. That he is God.
IMO. You choose to believe, and follow, Charles Taze Russell, but refuse Jesus The Christ.

[terri910]

I thought you might enjoy seeing what the context is of the verse you quote. John5. 36, "But I have greater witness than that of John: for the works which the father hath given me to finish, that same works that I do, bear witness of me, that the father hath sent me. 37: And the Father himself which hath sent me. hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape. 38: And ye have not his word abiding in you: for whom he hath sent, ye believe not. 39:
search the scriptures: for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me. 40: And ye will not come to me that ye might have life. 41. I receive not honor from men. 42: But I know you, that ye have not the love of God in you. 43: I am come in my fathers name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.
It would seem to me that you are totally ignoring the context of the passage, because what Jesus is doing is chastising those who refuse to see Him as the witness of him shows. That he is God.
IMO.
Yeah, that's pretty much what I was thinking when I said:
But considering who He is talking to and his next words: "and you do not have his word remaining in you, because you do not believe in the one whom he has sent." it might be that the people he is speaking to have not recognized God even as He stands there before them because they do not believe....
Guess the Jesus is God crowd is still consistent! *L*

[DispensationalJim]

Yeah, that's pretty much what I was thinking when I said:

Guess the Jesus is God crowd is still consistent! *L*

terri, I think you and oldtimer make a great team! :)

[the oldtimer]

Terri's post reminded me of what I was looking for the other day. AA and DRS Have repeatedly used scripture to say " no one has seen God". And then, ALONG COME JESUS, and he say, John14:6 "I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father but by me. 7:( Are you ready, Here it comes!!!) If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know Him and have seen Him, And in verse 9: " Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, me Phillip? ( here it come again, AA, and DRS, better duck) he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and HOW, SAYEST THOU THEN, SHOW US THE FATHER.
I done rest my case!!!!

[terri910]

I done rest my case!!!!
Oh, eternal optimism, oldtimer! *LOL* This case will likely never be rested.

[the oldtimer]

Oh, eternal optimism, oldtimer! *LOL* This case will likely never be rested.
As long, as their are those that would rather follow the teaching of a man, rather than Gods word, sadly you are so right.

[terri910]

As long, as their are those that would rather follow the teaching of a man, rather than Gods word, sadly you are so right.
I'm quite certain, though, that every participant in this thread (unless at some point during it's history an atheist has posted) is sincerely trying to follow God's word.

[DispensationalJim]

I'm quite certain, though, that every participant in this thread (unless at some point during it's history an atheist has posted) is sincerely trying to follow God's word.
I think that is a pretty accurate assessment, terri.

Here is an old "saying" that I've heard from several preachers over the years that probably would be acceptable to almost everyone on this thread -- except our Jewish friends and the atheist(s) you mentioned.

THE SON OF GOD BECAME THE SON OF MAN SO THE SONS OF MEN COULD BECOME THE SONS OF GOD.

[Tucson Jim]

If we do what God wants us to do,would that not make us like God ?

Not really.

We're sinners.

God is not.

HUGE difference.

[Tucson Jim]

If you can show me where Jesus says he is God,or God say he is Jesus,and the Holy Spirit says the same, then yes i will no longer say the doctrine is built on assumptions.

But we do have scripture of Jesus saying he was not God.

A hollow and false criterion, as you know.

You need to consider the evidence from the WHOLE Bible not just what Jesus said.

As you also know . . .

[Tucson Jim]

Now now.:D

Cop out . . .

[Tucson Jim]

God will unite us all someday and he will even do it to the animal kingdom.


God will bring peace security and unity to all.

Some will be cast into eternal hellfire, according to the Bible.

Peace, security,Unity in Hell???

[Tucson Jim]

God knows all things,and he lets it happen for a reason. I think the big reason is to show mankind what kind of world it is without out him leading the way.

I agree.

[Tucson Jim]

There is a difference between creating and procreating.

Thank you! I agree!

Now if you could just talk to DRS . . .

[Tucson Jim]

Proverbs chapter 8.

Would an all knowing God have to create wisdom ?

Or is this the son of God here in proverbs ?

Who did God enthrone ?

20. In the way of righteousness I will go, in the midst of the paths of justice. כ.
21. There is substance to give inheritance to those who love me, and I will fill their treasuries. כא.
22. The Lord acquired me at the beginning of His way, before His works of old. כב.
23. From the distant past I was enthroned, from the beginning, of those that preceded the earth. כג.
24. I was created when there were yet no deeps, when there were no fountains replete with water. כד.
25. I was created before the mountains were sunk, before the hills;

Jesus said he was the faithful and true witness the beginning of creation by God.

Assumptions and interpretations.

Show me a verse that says God created Jesus.

[Tucson Jim]

The God you think that had to create wisdom in proverbs chapter 8?

You must have me confused with DRS. Please, try to pay attention.

[Tucson Jim]

The bible does not say God became man the prophecy was God made the messiah lower than the angels you try to say that he was God

So you make God in man's image


Nonsense.

[Tucson Jim]

The bible is Watchtower dogma?

No, the Watchtower interpretation of the Bible is Watchtower dogma.

[Tucson Jim]

Oh and that wisdom then had a hand in creation and was fond of the sons of men?

Do you also believe the king of tyre was really an angel in the garden?

Sarcasm is not very Godly DRS.

[Tucson Jim]

Talk to Jim I quoted the bible and he said that it was watchtower dogma

No, you quoted your interpretation of the Bible, and apparently, cannot tell the difference.

[Tucson Jim]

I will repeat it slowly, WHERE DID WISDOM COME FROM??? In Pro.8, God is explaining that to us. Your statement has nothing at all to do with answering that simple question.

That's a shocker!

[Tucson Jim]

Having read many of Jim's posts, I believe him to be a very humble person. Not at all street hardened. But, I have trouble thinking he meant that in the way you are using now!!!

That's because I didn't. DRS is messing with you.

[Tucson Jim]

Not true Dj, the writing of the nt was not written until after Jesus's death.

They were divinely inspired after jesus was back in heaven.

You don't think they were writing the nt while they walked with Christ do you ?

I must confess I have no idea what you are trying to show here!!

If the NT is divinely inspired, then your side loses, since the NT says Jesus is God. no matter when it was written.

[Tucson Jim]

I am not sure what book you are reading but it is not from proverbs chapter 8,here i will post it again for you.

19. My fruit is better than gold-yea than fine gold- and my produce [is better] than choice silver. יט.
20. In the way of righteousness I will go, in the midst of the paths of justice. כ.
21. There is substance to give inheritance to those who love me, and I will fill their treasuries. כא.
22. The Lord acquired me at the beginning of His way, before His works of old. כב.
23. From the distant past I was enthroned, from the beginning, of those that preceded the earth. כג.
24. I was created when there were yet no deeps, when there were no fountains replete with water. כד.
25. I was created before the mountains were sunk, before the hills; כה.
26. when He had not yet made the land and the outsides and the beginning of the dust of the earth. כו.
27. When He established the heavens, there I was, when He drew a circle over the face of the deep; כז.
28. when He made the skies above firm, when He strengthened the fountains of the deep; כח.
29. when He gave the sea its boundary, and the water shall not transgress His command, when He established the foundations of the earth כט.
30. I was a nursling beside Him, and I was [His] delight every day, playing before Him at all times; ל.
31. playing in the habitable world of His earth, and [having] my delights with the children of man. לא.
32. And now, my children, hearken to me, and fortunate are those who observe my ways.

Now if you think an all knowing God had to create wisdom something is at a miss with your view.

Point??

[Tucson Jim]

It was Tuscon Jim that said "mere Watchtower dogma." And because it seems as though someone has misinterpreted TJ's post, perhaps it needs to be pointed to. Here is the actual post:
http://forums.hannity.com/showpost.php?p=55394841&postcount=22726

As you can see, DRS' post contains more than just verses from the Bible.

Tuscon Jim does not say that the Bible is "mere Watchtower dogma" but DRS' interpretation of those verses in scripture.

So the response of "Talk to Jim I quoted the bible and he said that it was watchtower dogma" does not accurately reflect your post, DRS, nor Tuscon Jim's response.

Thank you dear Terri!! :hug:

[Tucson Jim]

It is called "The Trinity" by Edward Henry Bickersmith. I typed out and posted several pages of it about the Holy Spirit since several of you said that we had never shown The Holy Spirit to be God.

I will go back and repost if you like. I'll also check to see how many responses I got about it. I don't think there were many, but my memory seems to be failing me lately. :)

Your memory is good.

It was completely ignored by the anti-trinity crowd.

[Tucson Jim]

[/I]

Angryamerican, DispensationalJim did not say that whatever NT verse you might use was written when Jesus was on earth as a man. He was saying it would be a verse in which Jesus was on earth as a man.

I see nothing within DJ's words that would lead anyone to believe he thought any of the NT, let alone any verses with Jesus speaking, was written on the spot at the time of Jesus' words.

The voice of clarity, crying in the wilderness!

[Tucson Jim]

So since you answered my post asserting you believe that it is refering to literal wisdom than I guess you think the king of Tyre was also the angel in the garden

More sarcasm DRS? Do you think that pleases Jehovah?

[Tucson Jim]

I disagree with you terri,that is not the first time Tj or oldtimer attacked Drs in such a fashion.

:)) You have GOT to be kidding!! We "attack" DRS???

Practically every post from DRS drips with sarcasm and condescension, and you think WE are the ones attacking?

OK . . .


But this time it was scriptures from the bible that he called mere watch tower dogma and it offended me.

Please do not spin terri,or you will just further offend me. :confused: oops i forgot my other smiley face.

Please.

It was DRS' interpretation of the scriptures that constitutes Watchtower Dogma, as I made very clear.

[Tucson Jim]

Oh please don't :angel:

Yes, the truth hurts, doesn't it . . .

[Tucson Jim]

I'm sorry, AA, but I'm not sure of what you are trying to say.



I'm not sure he is either . . . :confused:

[Tucson Jim]

Yeah it was clear she was wrong.

Not really.

[Tucson Jim]

That is just one of many leaks in the boat.:whistle:

Only to those who have no clue as to what the Trinity doctrine teaches . . .

[Tucson Jim]

This is not spin, Angryamerican. Just look at the words. Tell me you do not believe that trinitarians are stating merely conjecture and their opinions? Now, conjecture might not be a word I would use, since it does imply insufficient evidence -- and I figure different people require different levels of evidence. But, still, it is basically an opinion. And that is absolutely what DRS stated, and absolutely what we all state here. I figure it should be okay to remind any and everyone that a post that states someone's belief as fact, is, in fact, their belief, opinion, or interpretation.

And if you read the post I linked to you will see that DRS's last sentence in his post was his interpretation of the scripture he posted. Now, perhaps you want to argue that DRS' interpretation (his opinion) of that scripture does NOT line up with dogma espoused in the Watchtower. But I'm betting it does.

I find it difficult to believe that you actually think Tuscon Jim would claim any Bible verses as being "merely Watchtower dogma."

I think you would be surprised at what they claim Terri . . .

[Tucson Jim]

Did the scriptures Drs post,did they support his view ?

Not in the slightest!

Enough said.

Agreed.

[Tucson Jim]

No you say some scriptures meant something else to support your view while Christ was a man and on earth.

And why was Jesus still calling Jehovah his God and Father when he was back in heaven ? he was no longer a man.

Simple.

As we have told you a thousand times, in a triune God, any person of the Trinity can be referred to as "God" by any other Person of the trinity and it is accurate.

That's the truth.

Now go ahead and spin away . . .

[Tucson Jim]

Let me give you an example Dj.

On one hand you say Jesus is God, but when he was a man he was not God,

I cannot help but think this is intentionally misrepresnting what you know is our belief because we have told you a thousand times:

Jesus is fully God and fully man. Please try to be fair and accurate when you portray our beliefs.

So when jesus says no man has ever seen God or heard his voice at ANYTIME how can you ignore that ?

We don't. He was obviously referring to God the Father.

Whether God was in the form of a spirit or he was in the form of a man is he not still God ?

Yes.

That would seem to support our view however . . .

[Tucson Jim]

Do you believe Jesus when he said no man has ever seen nor heard the voice of God at ANYTIME ?

:yawn:

[theant]

Is this a sticky? :lol:

I DO believe in The Trinity... nobody has been able to prove to me that it isn't so and through faith and study I believe.

If I am wrong I don't think God will mind that with my meager resources I made my best efforts and went wrong somewhere.

[Tucson Jim]

It speaks of the son of God being created before all other things being created.

Thanks for your OPINION.

It does not say that.

[Tucson Jim]

No, i use the bible sorry,once again you are wrong.

But i have to admit it,i get a chuckle out of your posts.

Ah, condescension again. A useful tool . . .

[Tucson Jim]

Terri,they have said this too many times to have to prove it to you.

Truly sad . . .

[Tucson Jim]

Who is this "they" you speak of?

You've mentioned DispensationalJim....who else?

And, I'm afraid that until DJ comes and confirms what you have said, your claim is suspect.

His claim is pure fantasy.

[Tucson Jim]

Many trinitarians do when hit with scripture like the one i asked you about.

:))

[Tucson Jim]

So jesus the man was he God ?

He had the nature of God and the nature of man.

He was fully God and fully man.

I know . . . it's a hard concept . . . but try to remember, we are talking about God here. He might be a little complicated . . .

[Tucson Jim]

Excuse me? What exactly in my question to DispensationalJim, asking for clarification,do you get the idea that I do not believe Jesus and God are both fully God?:confused:

And, thanks for the warning, Angryamerican. I am hardly worried that a word doesn't appear in the scripture. It is the ideas being taught that I am concerned with.


Yes, but at least we don't create our own doctrine! :D

:clap::clap::clap: Fantastic Terri!!!

So glad you are in this thread - a breath of fresh air and common sense!

I love your style - but more important, I love how you make everyone be clear about their beliefs, even Trinitarians.

God bless you for loving the truth!!!

[Tucson Jim]

Angryamerican, you have now reached an all time disconnect. There is not one thread of continuity in this conversation. I'm sure there is in your head, but it simply is not coming out in your posts. I want to understand what you are saying, or asking, but I just can't find any relationship between one post and the next.

Welcome to my world! :))

Just kidding AA - we love you!

[the oldtimer]

More sarcasm DRS? Do you think that pleases Jehovah?
Sarcasm, is that his point. I had no idea what he was trying to do, or say for that matter.

[Tucson Jim]

I have the same question for all of you believers that Jesus is God crowd.


How can you ration your belief with Jesus's words here?

1Jn 4:12 No one has seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwells in us, and His love is perfected in us.


Joh 5:37 And He sending Me, the Father Himself, has borne witness of Me. Neither have you heard His voice at any time nor seen His shape.

Joh 1:18 No one has seen God at any time; the Only-begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him.

Already answered it - Triune God, remember?

[Tucson Jim]

I have had many bosses from middle-managers to CEO's that will get down in the mud with the workers.

They will get their hands dirty on the sales phone, they will work in the warehouse during the year end push.

Anyone looking from the outside in would never guess that they held such a high position.

In fact, they would argue, that there is no way that dude is a CEO, he is pulling orders, packing boxes, and loading UPS trucks.

My point is that I think Jesus was portraying that the future leaders of the church need to be the humblest of servants.

It is okay if you think differently, I don't.

Excellent GPD! Thanks!

[Tucson Jim]

I imagine that "crowd" will give you various answers to you Jesus is not God crowd. :rolleyes:


I do not believe these words are attributed to Jesus, Angryamerican. But, I do believe they are part of the inerrant word of God. And I believe they speak to the idea that Christian love confirms our knowledge of God, whose nature -- whose very being -- is love. When people "saw" Jesus' physical body here on earth, I believe they were seeing part of the nature of his full humanity. It does not necessarily mean that when one looked at the physical body that one was "seeing" his full nature as God. IMO, Jesus still revealed his nature as fully God, just as his fully human nature was obvious. Otherwise, how could He have said (and these are Jesus' words):
(John 14:7)
{John 14:9)
(John 10:30)


Jesus may have been saying that no one has heard the voice or seen the shape (things of a physical human nature) of God the Father. But considering who He is talking to and his next words: "and you do not have his word remaining in you, because you do not believe in the one whom he has sent." it might be that the people he is speaking to have not recognized God even as He stands there before them because they do not believe....

Once again, not Jesus' words (the next verse tells you this is the testimony of John). The Son, he says, has revealed the God that no one has seen. It is also said, in the very first verses of that first chapter:
Which, as you know, we "Jesus is God crowd" believe says exactly that.

Another classic!!! Well done Terri!

[Tucson Jim]

Is this a sticky? :lol:

I DO believe in The Trinity... nobody has been able to prove to me that it isn't so and through faith and study I believe.

If I am wrong I don't think God will mind that with my meager resources I made my best efforts and went wrong somewhere.

You're not wrong . . . ;)

[Tucson Jim]

Sarcasm, is that his point. I had no idea what he was trying to do, or say for that matter.

It seemed sarcastic and at least a little smug to me. Perhaps it's a language barrier.

[the oldtimer]

No, the Watchtower interpretation of the Bible is Watchtower dogma.
That is not entirely true. The many publications they have are also considered part of Gods word, although they deny it to anyone outside the organization. They are not allowed to question pamphlets such as "should you believe in the trinity". If you recall when I posted a paragraph from it, it got dropped like a hot rock. And when I asked about what happens when a person dies, I never did get a straight answer. Because that is a part they don't want people to know, but still part of their dogma. I could go on.

[Tucson Jim]

That is not entirely true. The many publications they have are also considered part of Gods word, although they deny it to anyone outside the organization. They are not allowed to question pamphlets such as "should you believe in the trinity". If you recall when I posted a paragraph from it, it got dropped like a hot rock. And when I asked about what happens when a person dies, I never did get a straight answer. Because that is a part they don't want people to know, but still part of their dogma. I could go on.

I'm sure some of this will come up again.

[Tucson Jim]

Terri has emerged as a Defender of the Faith on this thread!!! Way to go Terri!!!

[DRS]

More sarcasm DRS? Do you think that pleases Jehovah?

Not sarcasm it is an oberservation

If you really cared what pleases Jehovah I think you do as He says and worship Him alone instead of elevating Jesus to the same plain as Him

[DRS]

Terri's post reminded me of what I was looking for the other day. AA and DRS Have repeatedly used scripture to say " no one has seen God". And then, ALONG COME JESUS, and he say, John14:6 "I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father but by me. 7:( Are you ready, Here it comes!!!) If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know Him and have seen Him, And in verse 9: " Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, me Phillip? ( here it come again, AA, and DRS, better duck) he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and HOW, SAYEST THOU THEN, SHOW US THE FATHER.
I done rest my case!!!!

Paul explains

. 3*He is the reflection of [his] glory and the exact representation of his very being, and he sustains all things by the word of his power; and after he had made a purification for our sins he sat down on the right hand of the Majesty in lofty places.

Jesus perfectly reflected his Father

John explains

. 18*No man has seen God at any time; the only-begotten god who is in the bosom [position] with the Father is the one that has explained him.

And John wrote again

12*At no time has anyone beheld God. If we continue loving one another, God remains in us and his love is made perfect in us.

[DRS]

It seems to me, AA, that you have a serious conundrum on your hands, there.

How do YOU rationalize this verse then? BTW, AA, I think "rationalize" is the word you should have used above -- look up "ration" and see.
• John 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?

=====================================

And then here is another conundrum for you, AA:

• Gen. 32:30 And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.
• Gen. 33:10 And Jacob said, Nay, I pray thee, if now I have found grace in thy sight, then receive my present at my hand: for therefore I have seen thy face, as though I had seen the face of God, and thou wast pleased with me.
• Ex. 33:11 And the LORD spake unto Moses face to face, as a man speaketh unto his friend. And he turned again into the camp: but his servant Joshua, the son of Nun, a young man, departed not out of the tabernacle.
• Ex. 24:11 And upon the nobles of the children of Israel he laid not his hand: also they saw God, and did eat and drink.
• Num. 14:14 And they will tell it to the inhabitants of this land: for they have heard that thou LORD art AMONG THIS PEOPLE, THAT THOU LORD art seen face to face, and that thy cloud standeth over them, and that thou goest before them, by day time in a pillar of a cloud, and in a pillar of fire by night.
• Deut. 5:4 The LORD talked with you face to face in the mount out of the midst of the fire,

================================

So, AA, can you "rationalize" those verses with your "No man can see God"?

Gensis is Jacob wrestling with an angel

24*Finally Jacob was left by himself. Then a man began to grapple with him until the dawn ascended. 25*When he got to see that he had not prevailed over him, then he touched the socket of his thigh joint; and the socket of Jacob’s thigh joint got out of place during his grappling with him. 26*After that he said: “Let me go, for the dawn has ascended.” To this he said: “I am not going to let you go until you first bless me.” 27*So he said to him: “What is your name?” to which he said: “Jacob.” 28*Then he said: “Your name will no longer be called Jacob but Israel, for you have contended with God and with men so that you at last prevailed.” 29*In turn Jacob inquired and said: “Tell me, please, your name.” However, he said: “Why is it that you inquire for my name?” With that he blessed him there. 30*Hence Jacob called the name of the place Pe‧ni′el, because, to quote him, “I have seen God face to face and yet my soul was delivered.”

Exodus makes the distiction between how Moses was dealt with and the rest of the nation was dealt with for we see in that same chapter

20*And he added: “You are not able to see my face, because no man may see me and yet live


Now if you think Numbers is literal then you must believe also that Jehovah was actually in amongst the people

[gpd®]

Excellent GPD! Thanks!

No, thank you for confirmation.

If Jesus is not God manifest, then His sacrifice is not perfect, and we are all for not.

[gpd®]

Terri has emerged as a Defender of the Faith on this thread!!! Way to go Terri!!!

Terri and I have had a couple of opposing discourses over the Los Angeles religious climate.

Fortunately, we were able to find agreement at the end of each one.:)

[DRS]

No, thank you for confirmation.

If Jesus is not God manifest, then His sacrifice is not perfect, and we are all for not.

Why was Adam God manifast?

Was Adam not perfect?

[gpd®]

Why was Adam God manifast?

Was Adam not perfect?

The first Adam had his own spirit, the second Adam has the Spirit of God.

1Cr 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam [was made] a quickening spirit.

This most assuredly must have been discussed already?

[DRS]

All that shows is Jesus was given the power to raise the dead

[Reeder]

Was Jesus God ?


1Jn 4:12 No one has seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwells in us, and His love is perfected in us.


Joh 5:37 And He sending Me, the Father Himself, has borne witness of Me. Neither have you heard His voice at any time nor seen His shape.

Joh 1:18 No one has seen God at any time; the Only-begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him.

If you say he was not God, i would like for you to explain how God stop being God.

Is it not fair to say, that whether God is in the form of a man or a spirit is he not still God ?

Then if you say he is was God,how come he said no one has ever seen nor heard the voice of God at ANYTIME ?


One of the many reasons I don't believe the Bible to be infallible.

Early Christian author Irenaeus wrote in A.D. 180 that this scripture should be read “For 'no man,' he says, 'hath seen God at any time,' unless 'the only-begotten Son of God, which is in the bosom of the Father, He hath declared [Him].'" (Irenaeus, "Against Heresies," (Chapter 6)) Ante-Nicene Fathers 1:427)

Interestingly, Joseph Smith's revision of the Bible agrees with Irenaeus' reading:

No man hath seen God at any time except he hath borne record of the Son...


Acts 7: 55-56

55 But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,

56 And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.


Gen. 32: 30

30 And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.


Gen. 17: 1

1 And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the Lord appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect.


1 Kgs. 9: 2

2 That the Lord appeared to Solomon the second time, as he had appeared unto him at Gibeon.



Exodus 33: 11

11 And the Lord spake unto Moses face to face, as a man speaketh unto his friend.





I could go on and on with more scripture which clearly indicates that mankind CAN see God and live.

An early Christian document called the Clementine Homilies portrays the apostle Peter as agreeing with Irenaeus' view:

For I maintain that the eyes of mortals cannot see the incorporeal form of the Father or Son, because it is illumined by exceeding great light. . . . For he who sees God cannot live. For the excess of light dissolves the flesh of him who sees; unless by the secret power of God the flesh be changed into the nature of light, so that it can see light. (Apostle Peter (claimed), "Clementine Homilies," (17:16) Ante-Nicene Fathers 8:322).

Joseph Smith revealed the same essential truth:

D&C 67: 11

11 For no man has seen God at any time in the flesh, except quickened by the Spirit of God.

[DRS]

Genesis and Exodus has been explained

Solomon is explained

5*In Gib′e‧on Jehovah appeared to Sol′o‧mon in a dream by night; and God proceeded to say: “Request what I should give you

And in Acts he sees the glory of God but not God Himself

[gpd®]

All that shows is Jesus was given the power to raise the dead

Note the word "quicken" or "quickening" in the verse on the two Adams and its use in the rest of the Bible. It is ONLY used in reference to God or the Spirit of God. Jesus' earthly body enveloped this "quickening spirit."

1Cr 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam [was made] a quickening spirit.

Psa 71:20 [Thou], which hast shewed me great and sore troubles, shalt quicken me again, and shalt bring me up again from the depths of the earth.

Psa 80:18 So will not we go back from thee: quicken us, and we will call upon thy name.

Psa 119:25 DALETH. My soul cleaveth unto the dust: quicken thou me according to thy word.

Psa 119:37 Turn away mine eyes from beholding vanity; [and] [/i]quicken thou me in thy way.[/i]

Psa 119:40 Behold, I have longed after thy precepts: quicken me in thy righteousness.

Psa 119:88 Quicken me after thy lovingkindness; so shall I keep the testimony of thy mouth.

Psa 119:107 I am afflicted very much: quicken me, O LORD, according unto thy word.

Psa 119:149 Hear my voice according unto thy lovingkindness: O LORD, quicken me according to thy judgment.

Psa 119:154 Plead my cause, and deliver me: quicken me according to thy word.

Psa 119:156 Great [are] thy tender mercies, O LORD: quicken me according to thy judgments.

Psa 119:159 Consider how I love thy precepts: quicken me, O LORD, according to thy lovingkindness.

Psa 143:11 Quicken me, O LORD, for thy name's sake: for thy righteousness' sake bring my soul out of trouble.

Rom 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

[DRS]

It says the last Adam was made that means as Jesus said God gave him that power, both to raise the dead and judge

IT was God who raised Jesus from the dead as prophesied

[DRS]

By the way checking some of those OT verse the words do not translate as quicken

[Reeder]

Genesis and Exodus has been explained

Could you point me in the right direction.


And in Acts he sees the glory of God but not God Himself


He saw Jesus standing at the right hand of the Father, which tells me that he saw the Father.

[gpd®]

By the way checking some of those OT verse the words do not translate as quicken

I use the KJV, if you don't then our discussion is moot.:)

[DRS]

I usually try to use bibles based on older manuscripts, tend to be more accurate in translation

[gpd®]

It says the last Adam was made that means as Jesus said God gave him that power, both to raise the dead and judge

IT was God who raised Jesus from the dead as prophesied

It is what I believe and nothing short of a lightning bolt from heaven will change that. God bless.

[the oldtimer]

Paul explains

. 3*He is the reflection of [his] glory and the exact representation of his very being, and he sustains all things by the word of his power; and after he had made a purification for our sins he sat down on the right hand of the Majesty in lofty places.

Jesus perfectly reflected his Father

John explains

. 18*No man has seen God at any time; the only-begotten god who is in the bosom [position] with the Father is the one that has explained him.

And John wrote again

12*At no time has anyone beheld God. If we continue loving one another, God remains in us and his love is made perfect in us.
So, logically, you cannot possibly believe that both the scripture I posted, and the ones you posted can both be true???

[DRS]

So, logically, you cannot possibly believe that both the scripture I posted, and the ones you posted can both be true???

They are both true but as I showed the term seen God in each case has an explination, be it an angel, or dealing with how God dealt with a certain one

[the oldtimer]

Gensis is Jacob wrestling with an angel

24*Finally Jacob was left by himself. Then a man began to grapple with him until the dawn ascended. 25*When he got to see that he had not prevailed over him, then he touched the socket of his thigh joint; and the socket of Jacob’s thigh joint got out of place during his grappling with him. 26*After that he said: “Let me go, for the dawn has ascended.” To this he said: “I am not going to let you go until you first bless me.” 27*So he said to him: “What is your name?” to which he said: “Jacob.” 28*Then he said: “Your name will no longer be called Jacob but Israel, for you have contended with God and with men so that you at last prevailed.” 29*In turn Jacob inquired and said: “Tell me, please, your name.” However, he said: “Why is it that you inquire for my name?” With that he blessed him there. 30*Hence Jacob called the name of the place Pe‧ni′el, because, to quote him, “I have seen God face to face and yet my soul was delivered.”

Exodus makes the distiction between how Moses was dealt with and the rest of the nation was dealt with for we see in that same chapter

20*And he added: “You are not able to see my face, because no man may see me and yet live


Now if you think Numbers is literal then you must believe also that Jehovah was actually in amongst the people
As for Gen 32:30, I notice that you "quote" Jacob using the words, "My soul was delivered". Yet, you do not point out that,that translation is from the NWT. And that would change the meaning of the passage that is translated "Life is preserved"in the other translations. If this is not a deliberate attempt to mislead, what is it? And why do you not want folks to know where the interpretation is from? The NWT

[DRS]

As for Gen 32:30, I notice that you "quote" Jacob using the words, "My soul was delivered". Yet, you do not point out that,that translation is from the NWT. And that would change the meaning of the passage that is translated "Life is preserved"in the other translations. If this is not a deliberate attempt to mislead, what is it? And why do you not want folks to know where the interpretation is from? The NWT

Because in hebrew it says soul nphsh·i

So are the others guilty misleading?

[gpd®]

bump

[the oldtimer]

Because in hebrew it says soul nphsh·i

So are the others guilty misleading?
For those who would like to look it up, in the Strongs concordance it is # 5315, and the prim. root from#5314. You will not, find the word "soul" within the primary root word. #5314. You will find it near the end of the minor meanings, in #5315. If the word In Gen. 32: 30, is translated to say, "Soul" (in the NWT)Then why is it not, translated the same in all the other places it is used in scripture?(in the NWT) IMO, it is a deliberate attempt to change the meaning of the verse to fit the dogma of those who cannot be mentioned.

[the oldtimer]

Because in hebrew it says soul nphsh·i

So are the others guilty misleading?
Sorry, I looked it up. :rolleyes::rolleyes:

[DRS]

Sorry, I looked it up. :rolleyes::rolleyes:

You have made the accustation that

נַפְשִׁי or nephesh is not translated as soul in other places I would like to see you prove that

oh here is strongs


1) soul, self, life, creature, person, appetite, mind, living being, desire, emotion, passion

a) that which breathes, the breathing substance or being, soul, the inner being of man

b) living being

c) living being (with life in the blood)

d) the man himself, self, person or individual

e) seat of the appetites

f) seat of emotions and passions

g) activity of mind

1) dubious

h) activity of the will

1) dubious

i) activity of the character

1) dubious

[DRS]

I found this interesting also relevant

Nephesh (נפש) is the Hebrew word commonly translated as soul in English. It literally means the "complete life of a being" though it is usually used in the sense of "living being" (breathing creature). The Hebrew word nephesh applies to humans, lower animals, corpses and to God Almighty (Leviticus 26:11; 26:30; Psalm 24:4; Isaiah 42:1). In some Jewish traditions, such as Chabad-Lubavitch, plants also have souls [1]. The concept of an immaterial soul separate from and surviving the body is common today but was not fully founded in ancient Hebrew beliefs[2].

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nephesh

[the oldtimer]

You have made the accustation that

נַפְשִׁי or nephesh is not translated as soul in other places I would like to see you prove that

oh here is strongs


1) soul, self, life, creature, person, appetite, mind, living being, desire, emotion, passion

a) that which breathes, the breathing substance or being, soul, the inner being of man

b) living being

c) living being (with life in the blood)

d) the man himself, self, person or individual

e) seat of the appetites

f) seat of emotions and passions

g) activity of mind

1) dubious

h) activity of the will

1) dubious

i) activity of the character

1) dubious
I noticed you moved the definition "soul' from near the bottom of the minor meanings to the top in your Strongs. Will you please tell me which translation of the Strongs Concordance, you are using so that I might follow along. Now as far as proving anything to you, I have found in the past, that even when I quote the NWT, you will not agree. To prove to all the rest of you, that what I am saying is true. Take your NWT, and look up each time the word referenced as #5315, in the Srongs is tranlated "soul" in the NWT. I need say no more. :D

[DRS]

I did not move anything that was how it came from the site I used

I looked up each time the word nephesh is used and so far it has been soul everytime

[the oldtimer]

I found this interesting also relevant

Nephesh (נפש) is the Hebrew word commonly translated as soul in English. It literally means the "complete life of a being" though it is usually used in the sense of "living being" (breathing creature). The Hebrew word nephesh applies to humans, lower animals, corpses and to God Almighty (Leviticus 26:11; 26:30; Psalm 24:4; Isaiah 42:1). In some Jewish traditions, such as Chabad-Lubavitch, plants also have souls [1]. The concept of an immaterial soul separate from and surviving the body is common today but was not fully founded in ancient Hebrew beliefs[2].

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nephesh
I see that wikipedia seems to fit what you want it to, this time. I did notice though, that It says, " It literally means the "complete life of a being" though it is, USUALLY, used in the sense of "living being (breathing creature) Which of course would not tend to fit in your translation. But, so what?

[DRS]

Because soul is life hence why the bible says man became a living soul

[the oldtimer]

I did not move anything that was how it came from the site I used

I looked up each time the word nephesh is used and so far it has been soul everytime
Sure,DRS You got to be real quick,:D:D:D
Got to go to the store.

[DRS]

Well so far of the more than 300 occurances they have been soul

[DispensationalJim]

Because soul is life hence why the bible says man became a living soul

DRS, are you familiar with the term "redundant"?

If soul is life, as you say above, then why would it be necessary to say "living soul"? Wouldn't that be redundant?

Isn't that like saying "That's de ja vou all over again"? :)

[the oldtimer]

Well so far of the more than 300 occurances they have been soul
Again, references please? By now I am sure some others have had time to check, and I think they would like to know where you are looking.

[the oldtimer]

I did not move anything that was how it came from the site I used
So why, did you not list the address of the site??

[the oldtimer]

Do I, need to go back to the store?:D:D:D

[the oldtimer]

I found this interesting also relevant

Nephesh (נפש) is the Hebrew word commonly translated as soul in English. It literally means the "complete life of a being" though it is usually used in the sense of "living being" (breathing creature). The Hebrew word nephesh applies to humans, lower animals, corpses and to God Almighty (Leviticus 26:11; 26:30; Psalm 24:4; Isaiah 42:1). In some Jewish traditions, such as Chabad-Lubavitch, plants also have souls [1]. The concept of an immaterial soul separate from and surviving the body is common today but was not fully founded in ancient Hebrew beliefs[2].

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nephesh
DRS. check this post against what you said in post#136 of the "What happens after we die" thread?

[the oldtimer]

I found this interesting also relevant

Nephesh (נפש) is the Hebrew word commonly translated as soul in English. It literally means the "complete life of a being" though it is usually used in the sense of "living being" (breathing creature). The Hebrew word nephesh applies to humans, lower animals, corpses and to God Almighty (Leviticus 26:11; 26:30; Psalm 24:4; Isaiah 42:1). In some Jewish traditions, such as Chabad-Lubavitch, plants also have souls [1]. The concept of an immaterial soul separate from and surviving the body is common today but was not fully founded in ancient Hebrew beliefs[2].

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nephesh
If the two quotes are from the same website, shouldn't the words match???

[Tucson Jim]

Not sarcasm it is an oberservation

OK.

If you really cared what pleases Jehovah I think you do as He says and worship Him alone instead of elevating Jesus to the same plain as Him

I don't have to "elevate" Jesus - He's already there!!

As far as worship, you will one day worship Jesus too. Just wait . . .

[Tucson Jim]

Terri and I have had a couple of opposing discourses over the Los Angeles religious climate.

Fortunately, we were able to find agreement at the end of each one.:)

That's good - I would hate to be on Terri's bad side!!!:eek:

[Tucson Jim]

The first Adam had his own spirit, the second Adam has the Spirit of God.

1Cr 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam [was made] a quickening spirit.

This most assuredly must have been discussed already?

I think . . . EVERYTHING has been discussed in this thread!!!

[Tucson Jim]

It says the last Adam was made that means as Jesus said God gave him that power, both to raise the dead and judge

IT was God who raised Jesus from the dead as prophesied


Jesus raised Himself also:

"Jesus answered them, " Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up."" John 2:19

[the oldtimer]

Some will bow in reverence, some will bow in fear, But, ALL WILL bow.
IMO, of course, so as not to offend.

[the oldtimer]

How, you doing TJ. I just thought I would let you know that global warming finally got this far north. Now everyone is saying ,If it is this hot in June,what will July be like. Just won't be happy.

[Tucson Jim]

Some will bow in reverence, some will bow in fear, But, ALL WILL bow.
IMO, of course, so as not to offend.

"But you, why do you judge your brother? Or you again, why do you regard your brother with contempt? For we will all stand before the judgment seat of God.

For it is written,
"AS I LIVE, SAYS THE LORD, EVERY KNEE SHALL BOW TO ME,
AND EVERY TONGUE SHALL GIVE PRAISE TO GOD."

12So then each one of us will give an account of himself to God." Rom 14:11

"so that at the name of Jesus EVERY KNEE WILL BOW, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth,

11and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. " Phil 2:10-11

[Tucson Jim]

How, you doing TJ.

I'm doin' fine oldtimer, thanks for asking! How are you?

I just thought I would let you know that global warming finally got this far north. Now everyone is saying ,If it is this hot in June,what will July be like. Just won't be happy.

It was 103 in Tucson today. Let us give praise to God for A/C!!!

How "far" up North are you and how hot is it?

[the oldtimer]

I'm doin' fine oldtimer, thanks for asking! How are you?



It was 103 in Tucson today. Let us give praise to God for A/C!!!

How "far" up North are you and how hot is it?
For you it would be, drive to Seattle, and turn left. It got up to 86, 15 degrees above normal. And we are all doing fine. Have you heard from Warrior?

[DRS]

Jesus raised Himself also:

"Jesus answered them, " Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up."" John 2:19

The I guess this woman healed herself too

Mark 5:34*He said to her: “Daughter, your faith has made you well. Go in peace, and be in good health from your grievous sickness.”


Unless in both cases it was the faith they both that made possible the miracles

Which makes sense since Jesus is called the perfector of our faith and it said to observe the faith of Jesus

[DRS]

Again, references please? By now I am sure some others have had time to check, and I think they would like to know where you are looking.

You are the one making the accusation if you have an issue bring it here, if there is an actual example

[DRS]

OK.



I don't have to "elevate" Jesus - He's already there!!

As far as worship, you will one day worship Jesus too. Just wait . . .

No I won't I worship the one Jesus calls his God

[gpd®]

I think . . . EVERYTHING has been discussed in this thread!!!

I never got a greater enjoyment than watching my Dad inviting JW followers into the house and hammering out Bible doctrine from 7pm to somewhere around 1am.

He had a propensity to just wear them out and make them say "uncle." God bless his soul.

This thread reminds me of him so much.

[DRS]

If the two quotes are from the same website, shouldn't the words match???

What does not match?

[DRS]

DRS, are you familiar with the term "redundant"?

If soul is life, as you say above, then why would it be necessary to say "living soul"? Wouldn't that be redundant?

Isn't that like saying "That's de ja vou all over again"? :)

Well then you should take that up with God since He was one the one who told Moses to write it

[DispensationalJim]

Well then you should take that up with God since He was one the one who told Moses to write it

My problem is not with what God had Moses write, DRS, it is with what you said, which was...

Because soul is life hence why the bible says man became a living soul

It appears that "soul" has many meanings and usages as was shown earlier by you yourself. If I understand that last sentence, you claimed that it only meant "life."


BTW, DRS, have you ever taken a course in English Composition? Proper use of periods, commas, semi-colons, etc. IMO would tend to make your sentences much more understandable for the rest of us, if that matters to you. :)

[the oldtimer]

I never got a greater enjoyment than watching my Dad inviting JW followers into the house and hammering out Bible doctrine from 7pm to somewhere around 1am.

He had a propensity to just wear them out and make them say "uncle." God bless his soul.

This thread reminds me of him so much.
We are not allowed to do that here.

[the oldtimer]

What does not match?
In one post you took a paragraph from the top of your reference. in the other, a paragraph from the bottom. Both seemingly agreed with your point of view, and left out the entire rest of the reference. I can only assume, that is because it did not fit your point of view.

[Tucson Jim]

For you it would be, drive to Seattle, and turn left.

If I drove North to Seattle and turned left, I would be in Puget Sound!!!

It got up to 86, 15 degrees above normal. And we are all doing fine. Have you heard from Warrior?[/QUOTE]

Glad you are doing fine.

No word from Warrior for the past few days - hope he is OK.

[Tucson Jim]

The I guess this woman healed herself too

Mark 5:34*He said to her: “Daughter, your faith has made you well. Go in peace, and be in good health from your grievous sickness.”


Unless in both cases it was the faith they both that made possible the miracles

Which makes sense since Jesus is called the perfector of our faith and it said to observe the faith of Jesus

Don't know what you are smokin'" but you should share . . . :))

It is as plain as the nose on your face - Jesus said he would raise Himself - and he did. The Father raised Him too. Three Persons - One God.

I know . . . it's complicated huh . . .

[Tucson Jim]

You are the one making the accusation if you have an issue bring it here, if there is an actual example

The "issue" is you make sweeping statements and do not give the scriptures.

Simple, really . . .

[Tucson Jim]

No I won't I worship the one Jesus calls his God

We'll see Cowboy . . .

[Tucson Jim]

I never got a greater enjoyment than watching my Dad inviting JW followers into the house and hammering out Bible doctrine from 7pm to somewhere around 1am.

He had a propensity to just wear them out and make them say "uncle." God bless his soul.

This thread reminds me of him so much.

God bless Him!! I have done the same thing!!

[Tucson Jim]

BTW, DRS, have you ever taken a course in English Composition? Proper use of periods, commas, semi-colons, etc. IMO would tend to make your sentences much more understandable for the rest of us, if that matters to you. :)

:)) I feel your pain Jim!!!

[Tucson Jim]

Hey Guys - and Gals - if any are so inclined I am facing a layoff soon. I would greatly appreciate any prayers for my future employment.

I'm older, got a few wrinkles, but I can still do a good job. Please pray I'm not unemployed so long that it hurts my family.

Please pray The Lord would direct me into the right job for me.

Thank you all in advance!

[terri910]

You will be remembered in my prayers, Tucson Jim....:pray::pray::pray:

If you are laid off, I pray that you will not only find a job, but that you will find the best job for you, one that will bring glory to the Lord and security to you and your family.

[the oldtimer]

If I drove North to Seattle and turned left, I would be in Puget Sound!!!
Ya! keep going !:D:D

No word from Warrior for the past few days - hope he is OK.Him, I do pray for every day. Got a couple of those heart issues myself. I don't worry about them, though. If the Lord, does call me I know where I am going. And it won't be the grave to wait for the resurrection. That is just when my body, will catch up with my soul.
You told DRS that he should get some english lessons, and that got me thinking maybe I should too. I only have an 8th grade education. Then a GED. Oh! that was DJ that said that.

[Tucson Jim]

You will be remembered in my prayers, Tucson Jim....:pray::pray::pray:

If you are laid off, I pray that you will not only find a job, but that you will find the best job for you, one that will bring glory to the Lord and security to you and your family.

Gonna make me cry - thank you so much Terri!

[Tucson Jim]

Ya! keep going !:D:D

Oh yeah - take the ferry!!! (I'm from Olympia, Wash originally)

Him, I do pray for every day. Got a couple of those heart issues myself. I don't worry about them, though. If the Lord, does call me I know where I am going. And it won't be the grave to wait for the resurrection. That is just when my body, will catch up with my soul.
You told DRS that he should get some english lessons, and that got me thinking maybe I should too. I only have an 8th grade education. Then a GED. Oh! that was DJ that said that.

That's funny - for a GED education, you sure seem to have a great grip on the truth - something most PhDs don't have!

[the oldtimer]

Hey Guys - and Gals - if any are so inclined I am facing a layoff soon. I would greatly appreciate any prayers for my future employment.

I'm older, got a few wrinkles, but I can still do a good job. Please pray I'm not unemployed so long that it hurts my family.

Please pray The Lord would direct me into the right job for me.

Thank you all in advance!
You are on our prayer chain!!

[Tucson Jim]

You are on our prayer chain!!

Thank you with all my heart!!! :hug:

[the oldtimer]

Oh yeah - take the ferry!!! (I'm from Olympia, Wash originally)
Ok, Cross Bainbridge Is, Cross the bridge, first road to the right.

[Tucson Jim]

Ok, Cross Bainbridge Is, Cross the bridge, first road to the right.

Got it!

I've actually been there!

Did you say it was in the 80s? Hot day for the Northwest!

[DispensationalJim]

Hey Guys - and Gals - if any are so inclined I am facing a layoff soon. I would greatly appreciate any prayers for my future employment.

I'm older, got a few wrinkles, but I can still do a good job. Please pray I'm not unemployed so long that it hurts my family.

Please pray The Lord would direct me into the right job for me.

Thank you all in advance!

We'll sure be praying, T-Jim. I really relate since I went through that in 1984 (long story).

I'll make it as brief as I can...

A GM division in Ohio closed my department (I was Graphics supervisor) and laid me off. Six years later I was still laid off but getting paid (another long story) and was hit by a van while jogging, had a fractured skull and subdural hematoma (clot on the brain). After my brain surgery (they sucked out the clot), I went home to recuperate. In a few days, the GM Division Personnel Dept. called and asked if I was going to be alright (all those hospital bills they were paying must have gotten their attention). They told me to come in when the doctors cleared me so they could update my file. When I showed up, they said they had misclassified me in the computer. Instead of my actual title of technical illustrator (my last title before being laid off), they had put me in the computer as a technician (which GM didn't need anywhere, I was told). As soon as my title was corrected in the computer, the Corvette Division here in MI called them and asked where the new illustrator came from since they had been looking for one for years! They moved me to MI and two years later offered me an early retirement (1992)!

God does work in mysterious ways!!! Praise the Lord!! :)

[Tucson Jim]

We'll sure be praying, T-Jim. I really relate since I went through that in 1984 (long story).

I'll make it as brief as I can...

A GM division in Ohio closed my department (I was Graphics supervisor) and laid me off. Six years later I was still laid off but getting paid (another long story) and was hit by a van while jogging, had a fractured skull and subdural hematoma (clot on the brain). After my brain surgery (they sucked out the clot), I went home to recuperate. In a few days, the GM Division Personnel Dept. called and asked if I was going to be alright (all those hospital bills they were paying must have gotten their attention). They told me to come in when the doctors cleared me so they could update my file. When I showed up, they said they had misclassified me in the computer. Instead of my actual title of technical illustrator (my last title before being laid off), they had put me in the computer as a technician (which GM didn't need anywhere, I was told). As soon as my title was corrected in the computer, the Corvette Division here in MI called them and asked where the new illustrator came from since they had been looking for one for years! They moved me to MI and two years later offered me an early retirement (1992)!

God does work in mysterious ways!!! Praise the Lord!! :)

A weird story Jim, but actually, it gives me some hope.

If God could work out THAT situation, perhaps mine is not hopeless!!!

[the oldtimer]

Got it!

I've actually been there!

Did you say it was in the 80s? Hot day for the Northwest!
Yup! 86

[Tucson Jim]

Yup! 86

Wow - I imagine the ER was full of heat stroke victims!

It was 103 again today here - according to my patio thermometer (in the shade)

We just stay inside in the A/C!!!

[the oldtimer]

We'll sure be praying, T-Jim. I really relate since I went through that in 1984 (long story).
I'll make it as brief as I can...
God does work in mysterious ways!!! Praise the Lord!! :)
Mine started in 1981. As a new Christian I asked God to put me in a place where he could use me. Three weeks later, I took a fall in the ballast tank of a submarine. While on light duty I was able to witness to in the shop store where I worked. After two years of operations, and light duty, the shipyard retired me. Still healing I started a handyman business. I got one answer to the add I put in the paper, and worked for that family for 3 1/2 years. They came to know Jesus, and went on to lead a group of 31 young people to the Lord. I was led to be part of a street ministry with the UGM. What I thought was to be a one time thing, turned out to be 8 1/2 years. With my work providing work and time off, just ,at the proper times. What was the most exciting, was waiting to see what God was going to do next. As I knew, and could see, I had no control over the things that happened. Pro.3:5 "Trust in the Lord with all of thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding. 6: In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths. I can't wait to hear how God is going to use you? Blessings upon you!

[gpd®]

We are not allowed to do that here.

What, invite JW followers, and hammer out Bible doctrine 'til 1am?

[the oldtimer]

Mt.28:19, Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.
To me the interesting thing about this command, is the word,"name" is singular, and then Jesus, uses 3 names. If the trinity is not real, and just an assumption, this command would not make sense

[DRS]

My problem is not with what God had Moses write, DRS, it is with what you said, which was...



It appears that "soul" has many meanings and usages as was shown earlier by you yourself. If I understand that last sentence, you claimed that it only meant "life."


BTW, DRS, have you ever taken a course in English Composition? Proper use of periods, commas, semi-colons, etc. IMO would tend to make your sentences much more understandable for the rest of us, if that matters to you. :)

I'll tell you what Jim when you can give concise answers and learn the difference between the Holy One of God and the Holy One of Israel I will make sure every post I direct at you is perfect.


Now since both man and animals are referred to as souls are you trying to say animals have something you believe lives on after death?

[DRS]

Mt.28:19, Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.
To me the interesting thing about this command, is the word,"name" is singular, and then Jesus, uses 3 names. If the trinity is not real, and just an assumption, this command would not make sense

If you said in the names then one would think that each has multiple names

[Warrior4God]

Hey Guys - and Gals - if any are so inclined I am facing a layoff soon. I would greatly appreciate any prayers for my future employment.

I'm older, got a few wrinkles, but I can still do a good job. Please pray I'm not unemployed so long that it hurts my family.

Please pray The Lord would direct me into the right job for me.

Thank you all in advance!

Just sat down with my son and prayed about this Jim and believe that when we truly cast our cares upon him he will care for us.


I believe as long as we do our best to walk Gods Path we will be on the path where abundance and blessing await.

I will keep praying for this to workout and keep a mind picture of Blessings for your family.



Mat 6:25 Therefore I say unto you, Take no thought for your life, what ye shall eat, or what ye shall drink; nor yet for your body, what ye shall put on. Is not the life more than meat, and the body than raiment?
Mat 6:26 Behold the fowls of the air: for they sow not, neither do they reap, nor gather into barns; yet your heavenly Father feedeth them. Are ye not much better than they?
Mat 6:27 Which of you by taking thought can add one cubit unto his stature?
Mat 6:28 And why take ye thought for raiment? Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow; they toil not, neither do they spin:
Mat 6:29 And yet I say unto you, That even Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these.
Mat 6:30 Wherefore, if God so clothe the grass of the field, which to day is, and to morrow is cast into the oven, shall he not much more clothe you, O ye of little faith?
Mat 6:31 Therefore take no thought, saying, What shall we eat? or, What shall we drink? or, Wherewithal shall we be clothed?
Mat 6:32 (For after all these things do the Gentiles seek:) for your heavenly Father knoweth that ye have need of all these things.
Mat 6:33 But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.
Mat 6:34 Take therefore no thought for the morrow: for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself. Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof.

[CMike11]

Jim I am sorry you are going through a tough time...

[the oldtimer]

If you said in the names then one would think that each has multiple names
But, He used the word, "name". According to trinitarian belief, the statement makes sense. Now, using a non-trinitarian belief system. What, would be the logic of the statement???

[the oldtimer]

Just sat down with my son and prayed about this Jim and believe that when we truly cast our cares upon him he will care for us.


I believe as long as we do our best to walk Gods Path we will be on the path where abundance and blessing await.

I will keep praying for this to workout and keep a mind picture of Blessings for your family.



Mat 6:25 Therefore I say unto you, Take no thought for your life, what ye shall eat, or what ye shall drink; nor yet for your body, what ye shall put on. Is not the life more than meat, and the body than raiment?
Mat 6:26 Behold the fowls of the air: for they sow not, neither do they reap, nor gather into barns; yet your heavenly Father feedeth them. Are ye not much better than they?
Mat 6:27 Which of you by taking thought can add one cubit unto his stature?
Mat 6:28 And why take ye thought for raiment? Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow; they toil not, neither do they spin:
Mat 6:29 And yet I say unto you, That even Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these.
Mat 6:30 Wherefore, if God so clothe the grass of the field, which to day is, and to morrow is cast into the oven, shall he not much more clothe you, O ye of little faith?
Mat 6:31 Therefore take no thought, saying, What shall we eat? or, What shall we drink? or, Wherewithal shall we be clothed?
Mat 6:32 (For after all these things do the Gentiles seek:) for your heavenly Father knoweth that ye have need of all these things.
Mat 6:33 But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.
Mat 6:34 Take therefore no thought for the morrow: for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself. Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof.
1. It is good, to hear from you.
2. I could not, agree with you more.:D:D:D

[DRS]

But, He used the word, "name". According to trinitarian belief, the statement makes sense. Now, using a non-trinitarian belief system. What, would be the logic of the statement???

Except the name of Almighty God is Jehovah, the name of His son is Jesus and there is no name for the spirit

It makes perfect sense to those that realize the are dedicated to God recognizing the his son as the messiah and the holy spirit as the guiding force in their life

[the oldtimer]

Except the name of Almighty God is Jehovah, the name of His son is Jesus and there is no name for the spirit

It makes perfect sense to those that realize the are dedicated to God recognizing the his son as the messiah and the holy spirit as the guiding force in their life
I must admit this is the closest you have come to, logical debate, in a long time. Now would you explain why, if the Son, and the Holy Spirit, whom are of significantly lower status,in your belief system, from the Father, would they be included in the baptismal formula????

[ralittlefield]

Hey Guys - and Gals - if any are so inclined I am facing a layoff soon. I would greatly appreciate any prayers for my future employment.

I'm older, got a few wrinkles, but I can still do a good job. Please pray I'm not unemployed so long that it hurts my family.

Please pray The Lord would direct me into the right job for me.

Thank you all in advance!

Be assured that I am so inclined! I will be praying for you.

[DispensationalJim]

I'll tell you what Jim when you can give concise answers and learn the difference between the Holy One of God and the Holy One of Israel I will make sure every post I direct at you is perfect.

DRS, please tell us how you explain these three OT verses which DIFFERENTIATE between "the LORD" and "the Holy One of Israel" by placing an "AND" between them.

• Psa. 89:18 For the LORD is OUR DEFENCE; AND THE HOLY ONE OF ISRAEL IS our king.

Let's see now, just who is THE KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS?
• 1Tim. 6:15 Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;
• Rev. 17:14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings:...
• Rev. 19:16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.

================================
• Is. 41:20 That they may see, and know, and consider, and understand together, that the hand of the LORD hath done this, and the Holy One of Israel hath created it.

Let's see now, who is the creator of all things?
• John 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
• Eph. 3:9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:
• Col. 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

=================================
• Is. 49:7 Thus saith the LORD, the Redeemer of Israel, and his Holy One, to him whom man despiseth, to him whom the nation abhorreth, to a servant of rulers, Kings shall see and arise, princes also shall worship, because of the LORD that is faithful, and the Holy One of Israel, and he shall choose thee.

Finally, let's see now, who is it that chooses us?
• John 13:18 I speak not of you all: I know whom I have chosen: but that the scripture may be fulfilled, He that eateth bread with me hath lifted up his heel against me.
• John 15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.... 19 If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.
• Rev. 17:14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.

==================================

DRS, I promise I will not hold my breath until you actually give us a "perfect post." :)

In fact, if you do ever give us a perfect post, it might just be too much for me to take, so maybe I should be hoping that you never do. :)

All seriousness aside, DRS, I do promise that if I see a perfect post with the name DRS attached to it, I will pay homage to you in large print. :)


Now since both man and animals are referred to as souls are you trying to say animals have something you believe lives on after death?

Wow, I think that is a new topic for this thread. Do you not believe, DRS, that animals go to heaven? We know there are animals in heaven, right. Where did they come from??

[Tucson Jim]

Just sat down with my son and prayed about this Jim and believe that when we truly cast our cares upon him he will care for us.


I believe as long as we do our best to walk Gods Path we will be on the path where abundance and blessing await.

I will keep praying for this to workout and keep a mind picture of Blessings for your family.



Mat 6:25 Therefore I say unto you, Take no thought for your life, what ye shall eat, or what ye shall drink; nor yet for your body, what ye shall put on. Is not the life more than meat, and the body than raiment?
Mat 6:26 Behold the fowls of the air: for they sow not, neither do they reap, nor gather into barns; yet your heavenly Father feedeth them. Are ye not much better than they?
Mat 6:27 Which of you by taking thought can add one cubit unto his stature?
Mat 6:28 And why take ye thought for raiment? Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow; they toil not, neither do they spin:
Mat 6:29 And yet I say unto you, That even Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these.
Mat 6:30 Wherefore, if God so clothe the grass of the field, which to day is, and to morrow is cast into the oven, shall he not much more clothe you, O ye of little faith?
Mat 6:31 Therefore take no thought, saying, What shall we eat? or, What shall we drink? or, Wherewithal shall we be clothed?
Mat 6:32 (For after all these things do the Gentiles seek:) for your heavenly Father knoweth that ye have need of all these things.
Mat 6:33 But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.
Mat 6:34 Take therefore no thought for the morrow: for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself. Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof.

What can I say Warrior - but thank you with all my heart!! After all we have been through - all the bad times and insults - if you can still pray for me like that it really says a lot about you my brother.

I couldn't help but think of these verses:

"The one who loves his brother abides in the Light and there is no cause for stumbling in him." 1 John 2:10

"By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother." 1 John 3:10

"And this commandment we have from Him, that the one who loves God should love his brother also." 1 John 4:21

"We know that we have passed out of death into life, because we love the brethren." 1 John 3:14a

May God bless you richly for the love you have shown to a brother in need.

I am also praying for you Warrior.

[Tucson Jim]

Jim I am sorry you are going through a tough time...

Thank you Mike, I really appreciate that.

[Tucson Jim]

Be assured that I am so inclined! I will be praying for you.

Thank you Ralph - I really need it right now. I helps a lot to know you guys are praying - so I know whatever happens, it is God's will for me and I accept that joyfully. (though I am human, with a little fear too sometimes . . .)

[DispensationalJim]

A weird story Jim, but actually, it gives me some hope.

If God could work out THAT situation, perhaps mine is not hopeless!!!

Amen, T-Jim!

One of our favorite verses for these kind of situations:
Rom. 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

[Fire Watch]

Now would you explain why, if the Son, and the Holy Spirit, whom are of significantly lower status,in your belief system, from the Father, would they be included in the baptismal formula????

;) they arent. The wording in Matthew 28:19 was changed by the Catholic church. Click >>here (http://apostolic.net/biblicalstudies/matt2819-willis.htm)<<



Furthermore, there is not one single example of anyone being baptised using the triune method anywhere in scripture. Not one.

There is a reason why we have four gospels. God inspired each writer to write the same truth from different points of view. John did not record the Great Commission, but we will look at what the others said. When we look at Mark’s account we read: Mark 16:15 Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature. 16 He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned. 17 And these signs will follow those who believe: In My name they will cast out demons; they will speak with new tongues
So we see that Mark records the command to go and baptize, but does not speak of a name in connection with baptism. However, we do see a mention of Jesus’ name in the very next verse. More importantly we need to look at how the apostles obeyed these commands which we will see in the book of Acts. But now lets look at Luke’s account: Luke 24:47 and that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in His name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. 48 And you are witnesses of these things. 49 Behold, I send the Promise of My Father upon you; but tarry in the city of Jerusalem until you are endued with power from on high.
So here we read a command to preach repentance and remission of sins, in His name (which is fulfilled in Acts 2). If we look at the preceding verse we see that the pronoun His refers to Christ. So repentance and remission of sins are to be preached in Jesus’ name! Where do we receive the remission of sins? Well, let’s look at what Jesus’ disciples did with this command: Acts 2:38 Then Peter said to them, 'Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.'
So we have three different accounts of what Jesus’ commanded His apostles at the Great Commission. Now we look at how they obeyed Jesus’ words. We should take note that Jesus died after the Passover, was buried for 3 days and was then on the earth for 40 days after the resurrection (Acts 1:3). From the Passover until Pentecost is 50 days (Pente- means 50). So only about a week transpired between Jesus commission and Peter’s sermon on Pentecost. Surely they didn’t forget His command that fast. It is also interesting that Matthew, who later wrote Matt. 28:19 was present as well (Acts 1:13). We would expect him to stand up and stop Peter if he was preaching the wrong thing! ("Hey Pete, don’t you know that Jesus said . . . ") But we don’t see that. So we need to reconcile these two facts:

Jesus said this: Matthew 28:19 Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit


They did this: Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent and be baptized, everyone of you in the name of Jesus Christ . . .

Now who would be in the best position to understand the meaning of Jesus’ words? Us, almost 2,000 years later, or His own disciples who He spoke them to. Throughout the book of Acts as we will see they routinely baptized people in Jesus’ name. And when we read the Epistles to the churches, we will find out that they too were baptized in Jesus’ name. So it is obvious that Jesus’ disciples understood the name of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost to be Jesus! NOWHERE in scripture do we find anyone being baptized using these words, only in Jesus’ name. Acts 8:12 But when they believed Philip as he preached the things concerning the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, both men and women were baptized.

Acts 8:16 For as yet He had fallen upon none of them. They had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

Acts 10:48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord.

Acts 19:5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

Acts 22:16 'And now why are you waiting? Arise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on the name of the Lord.'
So Peter, John and the rest of the disciples baptized in the Jesus’ name throughout Jerusalem, Judea and Samaria. And Paul re-baptized the believers in Ephesus in Jesus' name (19:1-5). Now let’s look at some of the other churches: Romans 6:3 Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death?

Romans 6:4 Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
The reason that we are baptized in Jesus’ name is that we are being baptized into Jesus. We are taking on his name, similar to the way a woman takes on her husband's name. We are saying that we belong to Jesus and we are identifying with Him in His death and burial. Even if God were a trinity, Jesus is the one who died for us and He is the one who the Christians at Rome were buried with. 1 Corinthians 1:13 Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul?
If we follow Paul’s train of thought, his obvious implication is "No, Christ was the one crucified for you and so you were baptized in the name of Christ" So the believers at Corinth as well as those in Rome were baptized in Jesus’ name. Galatians 3:27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

Colossians 2:11 In Him you were also circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the sins of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, 12 buried with Him in baptism, in which you also were raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead.
In addition to those in Rome, Corinth and Ephesus (as well as Jerusalem, Judea and Samaria), we see that the Christians in Colosse and those in the region of Galatia were all baptized in Jesus’ name. They would not have connected baptism so exclusively with Christ had they routinely baptized using the words "Father, Son and Holy Spirit." As I said before, the only way that we see anyone being baptized is in Jesus' name. When Jesus’ was on this earth, He baptized His disciples (John 4:1,2) and then commissioned them to go and baptize others in His name, or in His place.1 When Jesus baptized someone, He didn’t have to say "in Jesus name." He was Jesus. But when we stand in his stead, we do it in his name. Scripture tells us that whatever we do in word or deed should be done in Jesus’ name (Col. 3:17). Baptism is an act of both word and deed.

Again, history shows us that the Catholic Church changed the way that people were baptized. (http://apostolic.net/biblicalstudies/name.htm)

BRITANICA ENCYCLOPEDIA The baptismal formula was changed from the name of Jesus Christ to the words Father, Son & Holy Ghost by the Catholic Church in the Second Century. – 11th Edit., Vol. 3, ppg. 365-366.
CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA Here the Catholics acknowledged that baptism was changed by the Catholic Church. – Vol. 2, pg. 263.

[DRS]

I must admit this is the closest you have come to, logical debate, in a long time. Now would you explain why, if the Son, and the Holy Spirit, whom are of significantly lower status,in your belief system, from the Father, would they be included in the baptismal formula????

Who is the head of the congregation?

Who is anointed by Jehovah by means of holy spiritÉ

[Warrior4God]

I do not believe that there is one single verse in scripture that shows a triune God and actually just the opposite is true.

Christ is Mediator between the “One God,” and “men.” “For there is one God, and one Mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,” 1 Tim. 2:5.


Jesus not only never said that himself was God, but, on the contrary, spoke of the Father, who sent him, as God, and as the only God. “This is life eternal, that they might know Thee, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent,” John 17:3. These words were spoken by our Saviour and used in solemn prayer to “his Father and our Father.”

The head of Christ is God. “I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of every woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God,” 1 Cor. 11:3.

Christ says, “My father is greater than all,” John 10:29. Is not the father, then greater than the son?


Jesus says, in another scripture, and without any hesitation it appears, “My Father is greater than I,” John 14:28

Jesus virtually denies that he is God, when he exclaims, “Why callest thou me Good? There is none good but one, that is God,” Matt 19:17.

The Father is called the God of Christ as he is the God of Christians. “Jesus saith unto her, ….Go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father; and to my God and your God,” John 20:17

Paul declares that the Father is the one God, and there is none other. “Though there be that are called Gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,) yet to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things,” 1 Cor. 8:5- 6.

notice in the above verse that there is only one God and thats the Father(the Son or The Holy Spirit are left out)............hmmmmmmm

Jesus declares that he is not the author of his own doctrine. “My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me,” John 7:16, 17.
acknowledges his dependence on his Heavenly Father for example and direction in all his doings. “The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do,” John 5:19. “The Father loveth the Son, and showth him all things that himself doeth” John 5:20.


Jesus positively denies that he is possessed of the Divine attribute of omnipotence. “I can of mine own self do nothing,” John 5:30.

Jesus never paid his adoration to himself, the Son, nor to the Holy Ghost, as he should have done ,IMO, had the Son and the Holy Ghost been God; but always to the Father.

[DispensationalJim]

So who, dear Warrior, was Jesus in the beginning?

We know that He was a man while He walked the earth, thus he was necessarily totally dependent on and subservient to His Father, but we also know that He created the earth and everything else IN THE BEGINNING, so who was He then?

Let's ask Fire Watch about that!! OK? If Fire Watch is too busy, maybe we'll go back and dig up one of his classic posts showing that Jesus IS GOD!!

[DispensationalJim]

OK, I found one...

Oh yeah?

Jehovah

1 Almighty--Genesis 17:1
2 I AM--Exodus3:14-16
3 Rock--Psalm 18:2; 28:1
4 Horn of Salvation--Psalm 18:2
5 Shepherd--Psalm 23:1; Isaiah 40:10-11
6 King of Glory--Psalm 24:7-10
7 LightPsalm--27:1; Isaiah 60:19
8 Salvation--Psalm 27:1; Isaiah 12:2
9 Lord of lords--Psalm 136:3
10 Holy OneIsaiah--12:6
11 Lawgiver--Isaiah 33:22
12 Judge--Isaiah 33:22
13 First and Last--Isaiah 41:4; 44:6; 48:12
14 Only Savior--Isaiah 43:11; 45:21; 60:16
15 Giver of Spiritual Water--Isaiah 44:3
16 King of Israel--Isaiah 44:6
17 Only Creator--Isaiah 44:24; 45:8; 48:13
18 Only Just God--Isaiah 45:21
19 Redeemer--Isaiah 54:5; 60:16

Jesus

1. Almighty--Revelation 1:82
2. I am--John 8:
3. Rock--I Corinthians 10:4
4. Horn of Salvation--Luke 1:69
5. Good Shepherd, Great Shepherd, Chief Shepherd--Hebrews 13:20; I Peter 5:4
6. Lord of Glory--I Corinthians 2:8
7. Light--John 1:4-9; John 8:12; Revelation 21:23
8. Only Salvation--Acts 4:10-12
9. Lord of lords--Revelation 19:16
10. Holy One--Acts 2:27
11. Testator of the First Testament (the Law)--Hebrews 9:14-17
12. Judge--Micah 5:1; Acts 10:42
13. Alpha and Omega, Beginning and Ending, First and Last--Revelation 1:8; 22:13
14. Savior--Titus 2:13; 3:6
15. Giver of Living Water--John 4:10-14; 7:38-39
16. King of Israel, King of kings--John 1:49; Revelation 19:16
17. Creator of everything--John 1:3; Colossians 1:16
18. Just One--Acts 7:52
19. Redeemer--Galatians 3:13; Revelation 5:9

and more...

Name

1. Jehovah-jireh (provider)
2. Jehovah-rapha (healer)
3. Jehovah-nissi (banner, victory)
4. Jehovah-m'kaddesh (sanctifier)
5. Jehovah-shalom (peace)
6. Jehovah-sabaoth (Lord of hosts)
7. Jehovah-elyon (most high)
8. Jehovah-raah (shepherd)
9. Jehovah-hoseenu (maker)
10. Jehovah-tsidkenu (Righteousness)
11. Jehovah-shammah (present)

Compare to what was said of Jesus..

1. Provider--Hebrews 10:10-12
2. Healer--James 5:14-15
3. Victory--I Corinthians 15:57
4. Sanctifier--Ephesians 5:26
5. Peace--John 14:27
6. Lord of Hosts--James 5:4-7
7. Most High--Luke 1:32, 76, 78
8. Shepherd--John 10:11
9. Maker--John 1:3
10. Righteousness--I Corinthians 1:30
11. Ever Present One--Matthew 28:20

[Tucson Jim]

I do not believe that there is one single verse in scripture that shows a triune God and actually just the opposite is true.

Christ is Mediator between the “One God,” and “men.” “For there is one God, and one Mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,” 1 Tim. 2:5.


Jesus not only never said that himself was God, but, on the contrary, spoke of the Father, who sent him, as God, and as the only God. “This is life eternal, that they might know Thee, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent,” John 17:3. These words were spoken by our Saviour and used in solemn prayer to “his Father and our Father.”

The head of Christ is God. “I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of every woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God,” 1 Cor. 11:3.

Christ says, “My father is greater than all,” John 10:29. Is not the father, then greater than the son?


Jesus says, in another scripture, and without any hesitation it appears, “My Father is greater than I,” John 14:28

Jesus virtually denies that he is God, when he exclaims, “Why callest thou me Good? There is none good but one, that is God,” Matt 19:17.

The Father is called the God of Christ as he is the God of Christians. “Jesus saith unto her, ….Go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father; and to my God and your God,” John 20:17

Paul declares that the Father is the one God, and there is none other. “Though there be that are called Gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,) yet to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things,” 1 Cor. 8:5- 6.

notice in the above verse that there is only one God and thats the Father(the Son or The Holy Spirit are left out)............hmmmmmmm

Jesus declares that he is not the author of his own doctrine. “My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me,” John 7:16, 17.
acknowledges his dependence on his Heavenly Father for example and direction in all his doings. “The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do,” John 5:19. “The Father loveth the Son, and showth him all things that himself doeth” John 5:20.


Jesus positively denies that he is possessed of the Divine attribute of omnipotence. “I can of mine own self do nothing,” John 5:30.

Jesus never paid his adoration to himself, the Son, nor to the Holy Ghost, as he should have done ,IMO, had the Son and the Holy Ghost been God; but always to the Father.

In Christian love I tell you I believe you 1) rely too much on "logic" (despite the fact that there is nothing illogical about the trinity) and what "makes sense" to you, and 2) you absolutely refuse to take into account the fact that Jesus was in the humbled state of a man when He made the comments you have posted, and 3) your operative assumption is a Unitarian nature of God, therefore any statements showing a difference between the Father and the Son is interpreted by you to mean the trinity can't be true.

I respectfully believe you are in error on all these points.

Yet, your heart is good, you love your brothers (and sisters) who name Christ as Lord, and therefore I can do nothing else but point out where I think you are in error and then love you as a brother and pray for you, which I do.

Plus I'm just so happy you're back it's hard to debate with you!! Hope you're doing well and continue to get better!

[Tucson Jim]

OK, I found one...

This is one of my all time fav Fire Watch posts too!

[Tucson Jim]

So who, dear Warrior, was Jesus in the beginning?

We know that He was a man while He walked the earth, thus he was necessarily totally dependent on and subservient to His Father, but we also know that He created the earth and everything else IN THE BEGINNING, so who was He then?

Ooh, ooh, I know the answer!!! Pick me!!!

[Tucson Jim]

;) they arent. The wording in Matthew 28:19 was changed by the Catholic church. Click >>here (http://apostolic.net/biblicalstudies/matt2819-willis.htm)<<



Furthermore, there is not one single example of anyone being baptised using the triune method anywhere in scripture. Not one.

There is a reason why we have four gospels. God inspired each writer to write the same truth from different points of view. John did not record the Great Commission, but we will look at what the others said. When we look at Mark’s account we read: Mark 16:15 Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature. 16 He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned. 17 And these signs will follow those who believe: In My name they will cast out demons; they will speak with new tongues
So we see that Mark records the command to go and baptize, but does not speak of a name in connection with baptism. However, we do see a mention of Jesus’ name in the very next verse. More importantly we need to look at how the apostles obeyed these commands which we will see in the book of Acts. But now lets look at Luke’s account: Luke 24:47 and that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in His name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. 48 And you are witnesses of these things. 49 Behold, I send the Promise of My Father upon you; but tarry in the city of Jerusalem until you are endued with power from on high.
So here we read a command to preach repentance and remission of sins, in His name (which is fulfilled in Acts 2). If we look at the preceding verse we see that the pronoun His refers to Christ. So repentance and remission of sins are to be preached in Jesus’ name! Where do we receive the remission of sins? Well, let’s look at what Jesus’ disciples did with this command: Acts 2:38 Then Peter said to them, 'Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.'
So we have three different accounts of what Jesus’ commanded His apostles at the Great Commission. Now we look at how they obeyed Jesus’ words. We should take note that Jesus died after the Passover, was buried for 3 days and was then on the earth for 40 days after the resurrection (Acts 1:3). From the Passover until Pentecost is 50 days (Pente- means 50). So only about a week transpired between Jesus commission and Peter’s sermon on Pentecost. Surely they didn’t forget His command that fast. It is also interesting that Matthew, who later wrote Matt. 28:19 was present as well (Acts 1:13). We would expect him to stand up and stop Peter if he was preaching the wrong thing! ("Hey Pete, don’t you know that Jesus said . . . ") But we don’t see that. So we need to reconcile these two facts:

Jesus said this: Matthew 28:19 Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit


They did this: Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent and be baptized, everyone of you in the name of Jesus Christ . . .

Now who would be in the best position to understand the meaning of Jesus’ words? Us, almost 2,000 years later, or His own disciples who He spoke them to. Throughout the book of Acts as we will see they routinely baptized people in Jesus’ name. And when we read the Epistles to the churches, we will find out that they too were baptized in Jesus’ name. So it is obvious that Jesus’ disciples understood the name of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost to be Jesus! NOWHERE in scripture do we find anyone being baptized using these words, only in Jesus’ name. Acts 8:12 But when they believed Philip as he preached the things concerning the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, both men and women were baptized.

Acts 8:16 For as yet He had fallen upon none of them. They had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

Acts 10:48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord.

Acts 19:5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

Acts 22:16 'And now why are you waiting? Arise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on the name of the Lord.'
So Peter, John and the rest of the disciples baptized in the Jesus’ name throughout Jerusalem, Judea and Samaria. And Paul re-baptized the believers in Ephesus in Jesus' name (19:1-5). Now let’s look at some of the other churches: Romans 6:3 Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death?

Romans 6:4 Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
The reason that we are baptized in Jesus’ name is that we are being baptized into Jesus. We are taking on his name, similar to the way a woman takes on her husband's name. We are saying that we belong to Jesus and we are identifying with Him in His death and burial. Even if God were a trinity, Jesus is the one who died for us and He is the one who the Christians at Rome were buried with. 1 Corinthians 1:13 Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul?
If we follow Paul’s train of thought, his obvious implication is "No, Christ was the one crucified for you and so you were baptized in the name of Christ" So the believers at Corinth as well as those in Rome were baptized in Jesus’ name. Galatians 3:27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

Colossians 2:11 In Him you were also circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the sins of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, 12 buried with Him in baptism, in which you also were raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead.
In addition to those in Rome, Corinth and Ephesus (as well as Jerusalem, Judea and Samaria), we see that the Christians in Colosse and those in the region of Galatia were all baptized in Jesus’ name. They would not have connected baptism so exclusively with Christ had they routinely baptized using the words "Father, Son and Holy Spirit." As I said before, the only way that we see anyone being baptized is in Jesus' name. When Jesus’ was on this earth, He baptized His disciples (John 4:1,2) and then commissioned them to go and baptize others in His name, or in His place.1 When Jesus baptized someone, He didn’t have to say "in Jesus name." He was Jesus. But when we stand in his stead, we do it in his name. Scripture tells us that whatever we do in word or deed should be done in Jesus’ name (Col. 3:17). Baptism is an act of both word and deed.

Again, history shows us that the Catholic Church changed the way that people were baptized. (http://apostolic.net/biblicalstudies/name.htm)

BRITANICA ENCYCLOPEDIA The baptismal formula was changed from the name of Jesus Christ to the words Father, Son & Holy Ghost by the Catholic Church in the Second Century. – 11th Edit., Vol. 3, ppg. 365-366.
CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA Here the Catholics acknowledged that baptism was changed by the Catholic Church. – Vol. 2, pg. 263.


Debate Baptism in the name of Jesus with Fire Watch?

Think I'll pass . . . ;)

[terri910]

Ooh, ooh, I know the answer!!! Pick me!!!
Pick me, Mr. Kot-ter!!!
http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a355/terri910/oohooh.jpg

[Tucson Jim]

Pick me, Mr. Kot-ter!!!
http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a355/terri910/oohooh.jpg

OK, Terri, WHAT'S THE ANSWER???