Should You Believe In The Trinity?

[CMike11]

ruach as in spirit

Yes, I have heard of the word.

What context is the issue please?

[CMike11]

:eh: What about one?

I am sorry. I got distracted.


I mean if you are saying that jesus is the one and only god. How do you square that away with jesus praying to god.

Also, jesus he said he was the son of god. That too is a separation.

Trinity itself connotes three separate entities.

Yes, G-D has made it clear in the passages, that there is only him, and no one else?

I think there are some issues here

1) There are those that claim that he was the messiah, yet he didn't fulfill the messianic prophesies, so he can't be.

2) There are those who claim he is the one and only god. However, jesus himself separated himself from the actual god. That doesn't work either.

3) Then there are those who claim that he is another divine entity that should be worshipped. However, G-d made it abundantly clear through the passages that I posted, that there is only him and no one else. That would be contrary to what G-D said.

[ralittlefield]

I am sorry. I got distracted.


I mean if you are saying that jesus is the one and only god. How do you square that away with jesus praying to god.

Also, jesus he said he was the son of god. That too is a separation.

Trinity itself connotes three separate entities.

Yes, G-D has made it clear in the passages, that there is only him, and no one else?

I think there are some issues here

1) There are those that claim that he was the messiah, yet he didn't fulfill the messianic prophesies, so he can't be.

2) There are those who claim he is the one and only god. However, jesus himself separated himself from the actual god. That doesn't work either.

3) Then there are those who claim that he is another divine entity that should be worshipped. However, G-d made it abundantly clear through the passages that I posted, that there is only him and no one else. That would be contrary to what G-D said.


The Trinity is one entity: God/Jehovah.

That one entity is comprised of three persons: Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

[terri910]

The Trinity is one entity: God/Jehovah.

That one entity is comprised of three persons: Father, Son and Holy Spirit.What ralittlefield said.

[CMike11]

By definiton three different individuals/persons are three different entities.

I got another question.

G-D was very explicit and detailed in what he told the jewish people to do.

The five books of Moses as well as the oral law, which G-D gave to Mt Sinai for the jewish people, was very explicit and detailed.

It covered everything from what jews are supposed to eat, to exact measurements of structures G-D wanted built, to what the priests were supposed to wear and the color.

G-D went into extreme detail in the Torah.

How is it that despite all these details, and thousands of pages guiding the jews, somehow G-D forgot to mention this trinity business?

Wouldn't that be something important for the jews to know if it was true?

Did G-D forget?

G-D did make it clear as you can see from the passages that I quoted that he said that there is only him, and that it. No where did he indicate that there was anyone other than him that was divine.

You may find some vague passage and try to creatively manipulate it, but you can't find anywhere in the Torah where it's explicitly mentioned.

How did this oversight occur?:eek:

[Tucson Jim]

INCREDIBLE, T-Jim! That's a keeper.

I would suggest that everytime DRS brings up his usual attempt to compare Jesus with Moses, etc., we just pop in that response again.

Thanks for putting that together, Jim.

Thanks D-Jim. I must admit I borrowed several of these points from an earlier wonderful post on the same topic by Fire Watch, then added some points of my own and put it all in the format you see.

[Tucson Jim]

Thank you. I think I can use that in my debates as well.

You're welcome.

[Tucson Jim]

I think I am going to give DRS some ammo. Obviously I don't believe jesus was a prophet either, but he certainly wasn't a divine being.

God made it extremely clear that there can only be one. How do you reconcile this?

Exodus 8:10 Then he said, "Tomorrow." So he said, "May it be according to your word, that you may know that there is no one like the LORD our God.

Exodus 9:14 "For this time I will send all My plagues on you and your servants and your people, so that you may know that there is no one like Me in all the earth.

Deuteronomy 4:39 "Know therefore today, and take it to your heart, that the LORD, He is God in heaven above and on the earth below; there is no other.

Deuteronomy 32:12 "The LORD alone guided him, And there was no foreign god with him.

Deuteronomy 32:39 'See now that I, I am He, And there is no god besides Me; It is I who put to death and give life. I have wounded and it is I who heal, And there is no one who can deliver from My hand.

1 Samuel 2:2 "There is no one holy like the LORD, Indeed, there is no one besides You, Nor is there any rock like our God.

Isaiah 43:10 "You are My witnesses," declares the LORD, "And My servant whom I have chosen, So that you may know and believe Me And understand that I am He. Before Me there was no God formed, And there will be none after Me.

Isaiah 44:6 "Thus says the LORD, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, the LORD of hosts: 'I am the first and I am the last, And there is no God besides Me.

Isaiah 45:5 "I am the LORD, and there is no other; Besides Me there is no God. I will gird you, though you have not known Me;

And as far as relying on jesus...

Jeremiah 16

5. So says the Lord: Cursed is the man who trusts in man and makes flesh his arm, and whose heart turns away from the Lord. ה.
6. He shall be like a lone tree in the plain, and will not see when good comes, and will dwell on parched land in the desert, on salt-sodden soil that is not habitable. ו.
7. Blessed is the man who trusts in the Lord; the Lord shall be his trust. ז.
8. For he shall be like a tree planted by the water, and by a rivulet spreads its roots, and will not see when heat comes, and its leaves shall be green, and in the year of drought will not be anxious, neither shall it cease from bearing fruit.

I agree with all of that. yes, there is only One God. Amen.

[Tucson Jim]

Well if you are agreeing with the NT passages that were just posted.

Then you seem to be saying that Jesus is:

omnipresent

omniscient

To be worshipped to

Can forgive sin

Now if your saying that jesus is the same exact thing as god then how and why did jesus say that he prayed to god? Did he pray to himself?

If jesus was complaining to god why did you forsake me? How can he be the same thing as god? Was he complaining to himself.

I believe in according to your own literature jesus said god god is greater than him..

If you believe these things then to you he must be a divine being.

Yet, G-D stated numerous times, that there is nobody but him.

The nature of the One God is Triune. Persons of the Trinity have relationships with other Persons of the Trinity, but The Father Son and Spirit ARE the one God.

[Tucson Jim]

By definiton three different individuals/persons are three different entities.

I got another question.

G-D was very explicit and detailed in what he told the jewish people to do.

The five books of Moses as well as the oral law, which G-D gave to Mt Sinai for the jewish people, was very explicit and detailed.

It covered everything from what jews are supposed to eat, to exact measurements of structures G-D wanted built, to what the priests were supposed to wear and the color.

G-D went into extreme detail in the Torah.

How is it that despite all these details, and thousands of pages guiding the jews, somehow G-D forgot to mention this trinity business?

Wouldn't that be something important for the jews to know if it was true?

Did G-D forget?

G-D did make it clear as you can see from the passages that I quoted that he said that there is only him, and that it. No where did he indicate that there was anyone other than him that was divine.

You may find some vague passage and try to creatively manipulate it, but you can't find anywhere in the Torah where it's explicitly mentioned.

How did this oversight occur?:eek:

No "oversight" and of course, God cannot "forget", There is really no need to belittle the position of those who have different beliefs than you by using such language.

This is simply a matter of God's timing.

God chose to reveal His Triune nature through His Son Jesus Christ, in the fullness of time.

[terri910]

By definiton three different individuals/persons are three different entities.

Perhaps by your definition. Not by definition of the Trinity, however.

[DRS]

The Trinity is one entity: God/Jehovah.

That one entity is comprised of three persons: Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

Even though the Spirit is referred to as Jehovah's Holy Spirit

And all the prophecies showed messiah would be Jehovah's servant, whom Jehovah annointed you wish to insist it is Jehovah?

[DRS]

No "oversight" and of course, God cannot "forget", There is really no need to belittle the position of those who have different beliefs than you by using such language.

This is simply a matter of God's timing.

God chose to reveal His Triune nature through His Son Jesus Christ, in the fullness of time.

REally if that was true then how could Jesus while tell the Samaritan woman we worship what we know, if the Jews did not know God was a trinity?

[DRS]

By definiton three different individuals/persons are three different entities.

I got another question.

G-D was very explicit and detailed in what he told the jewish people to do.


G-D went into extreme detail in the Torah.

How is it that despite all these details, and thousands of pages guiding the jews, somehow G-D forgot to mention this trinity business?

Wouldn't that be something important for the jews to know if it was true?

Did G-D forget?

G-D did make it clear as you can see from the passages that I quoted that he said that there is only him, and that it. No where did he indicate that there was anyone other than him that was divine.

You may find some vague passage and try to creatively manipulate it, but you can't find anywhere in the Torah where it's explicitly mentioned.

How did this oversight occur?:eek:

God just did not have neoplatonic thought imposed on Him yet

[Tucson Jim]

Even though the Spirit is referred to as Jehovah's Holy Spirit

And all the prophecies showed messiah would be Jehovah's servant, whom Jehovah annointed you wish to insist it is Jehovah?



Absolutely!! God the Son humbled Himself and became a servant.

[DRS]

Absolutely!! God the Son humbled Himself and became a servant.

I'm sorry where do we find the term God the son in the bible?

[Tucson Jim]

REally if that was true then how could Jesus while tell the Samaritan woman we worship what we know, if the Jews did not know God was a trinity?

It's a weak argument DRS, and yet, inexplicably, you seem to love to hang your hat on it. :eh:

It doesn't say or imply the Jews knew everything about Gods nature. They "knew" what God had revealed up to that point. Which was a lot more than the Samaritans knew, true.

But He revealed more of Himself throughout Jesus' ministry, and still more of Himself as the final books of the Bible were being written. And He will, undoubtedly reveal MUCH more about Himself to those who love Him in the eternity to come.

So . . . Jesus saying the Jews "knew" Him disproves the Trinity?

Hardly.

[Tucson Jim]

God just did not have neoplatonic thought imposed on Him yet

Joking at the expense of others is rude, DRS. Did no one ever teach you that?

[DRS]

It's a weak argument DRS, and yet, inexplicably, you seem to love to hang your hat on it. :eh:

It doesn't say or imply the Jews knew everything about Gods nature. They "knew" what God had revealed up to that point. Which was a lot more than the Samaritans knew, true.

But He revealed more of Himself throughout Jesus' ministry, and still more of Himself as the final books of the Bible were being written. And He will, undoubtedly reveal MUCH more about Himself to those who love Him in the eternity to come.

So . . . Jesus saying the Jews "knew" Him disproves the Trinity?

Hardly.

As Cmike said 3 persons do not make one God

At least Jacob will admit it is a triad just like the pagan gods that surrounded the Jews, even those they grouped in three the Caananites said there was one god

[Tucson Jim]

I'm sorry where do we find the term God the son in the bible?

The same place we find the term "Jehovah's Witnesses" or "Kingdom Hall".

[DRS]

Joking at the expense of others is rude, DRS. Did no one ever teach you that?

That is not a joke, it was not until former philosephers started imposing platonic thinking on God did he become a trinity

Of course all sorts of pagan thoughts were becoming part of church doctrine then

[Tucson Jim]

As Cmike said 3 persons do not make one God

At least Jacob will admit it is a triad just like the pagan gods that surrounded the Jews, even those they grouped in three the Caananites said there was one god


Missed the point of my post entirely I see. But that's pretty normal . . . :)

[Tucson Jim]

That is not a joke, it was not until former philosephers started imposing platonic thinking on God did he become a trinity

Of course all sorts of pagan thoughts were becoming part of church doctrine then

Not a joke huh . . .:rolleyes:

[DRS]

The same place we find the term "Jehovah's Witnesses" or "Kingdom Hall".

The bible is about God you are altering God if something is needed to be known about God then it should be there in the bible like God the son

[DRS]

Missed the point of my post entirely I see. But that's pretty normal . . . :)

Like you reading the bible

If Paul believed God and Jesus were one in the same why do his letter open up with the name of both and Jesus is called lord? while the Father is called God?

[DRS]

Since the OT was the only scripture available to the bible writers and they had to prove their beliefs from them prove the trinity using the OT

It should be easy since the OT is quoted extensively

[CMike11]

No "oversight" and of course, God cannot "forget", There is really no need to belittle the position of those who have different beliefs than you by using such language.

This is simply a matter of God's timing.

God chose to reveal His Triune nature through His Son Jesus Christ, in the fullness of time.

According to G-D there is no "son". That would be a different entity/individual/being.

G-D made it clear in numerous passages that there is absolutely nobody but him.

How is it that in such explicityand detailed laws G-D gave the jewish people, he neglected to mention this trinity thing? Why? Wouldn't that be something important to share with the jewish people.

He told them what they can eat, how to treat animals, how much of bread they should eat on the shabbos, laws of divorce, and marriage.


Yet something so critical of God saying that there are more divine beings than him wasn't there. Why? Why? Why?

Here again are the passages where G-d made it clear that there was no one but him.

Exodus 8:10 Then he said, "Tomorrow." So he said, "May it be according to your word, that you may know that there is no one like the LORD our God.

Exodus 9:14 "For this time I will send all My plagues on you and your servants and your people, so that you may know that there is no one like Me in all the earth.

Deuteronomy 4:39 "Know therefore today, and take it to your heart, that the LORD, He is God in heaven above and on the earth below; there is no other.

Deuteronomy 32:12 "The LORD alone guided him, And there was no foreign god with him.

Deuteronomy 32:39 'See now that I, I am He, And there is no god besides Me; It is I who put to death and give life. I have wounded and it is I who heal, And there is no one who can deliver from My hand.

1 Samuel 2:2 "There is no one holy like the LORD, Indeed, there is no one besides You, Nor is there any rock like our God.

Isaiah 43:10 "You are My witnesses," declares the LORD, "And My servant whom I have chosen, So that you may know and believe Me And understand that I am He. Before Me there was no God formed, And there will be none after Me.

Isaiah 44:6 "Thus says the LORD, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, the LORD of hosts: 'I am the first and I am the last, And there is no God besides Me.

Isaiah 45:5 "I am the LORD, and there is no other; Besides Me there is no God. I will gird you, though you have not known Me;

[CMike11]

Perhaps by your definition. Not by definition of the Trinity, however.

Trinity by defiinition means three. G-D said there is only him. That's one.

[CMike11]

I'm sorry where do we find the term God the son in the bible?

I am not used to agreeing with DRS.

I guess in these debates the enemy of my enemy is my friend.

Why wasn't in the torah?

[kalinowski76]

God states in all those verses that were listed earlier in this thread that there is only Him. That is true, obviously. But did you ever think that God could show up at any time and in any form? He is ALL powerful and can do ANYTHING he desires.

Isaiah 19:20-21 --
It will be a sign and witness to the LORD Almighty in the land of Egypt. When they cry out to the LORD because of their oppressors, he will send them a savior and defender, and he will rescue them. 21 So the LORD will make himself known to the Egyptians, and in that day they will acknowledge the LORD. They will worship with sacrifices and grain offerings; they will make vows to the LORD and keep them.

The Savior that is being talked about is Jesus (part #2 of the Trinity), God sending a human with divine powers given by God Himself, to His Son, or, God in the flesh. He was sent to the people so that they may refocus on God and not their Earthly desires and 'false' gods and idols. Humans mostly forsaked Him, as they do now so God allowed Jesus to be placed on the cross and was sacrificed in place of ALL who forsaked the Lord.

From the crucifixion came the Spirit. For all those people that accept this (that Christ was sent by God, died on the cross and that He rose to Heaven) they will be overcome by the Spirit of God, which Jesus was, because He was part of God. I have watched people's lives (including mine) change when they accept these as truths, because of the way that the Spirit of God changes their (our) hearts.
Galatians 5

5But by faith we eagerly await through the Spirit the righteousness for which we hope. 6For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any value. The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love.

[CMike11]

G-D can do whatever he wants. However, he will not lie.

G-D would not create or have a separate divine entity.

Why? Because he said so numerous times. G-D said "There is no other".

That's it. There is only the one G-D. No other divine beings exist. 1.

And no the Isaiah passage has absolutely nothing to do with jesus.

Nothing in the Torah (five books of moses) or prophets, or any other type of jewish scripture has anything to do with jesus.

If jesus truely was a divine being sent by G-D, G-D would have said so. It wouldn't be necessarily to find things that look obscure in prophets (which is written poetically and flowerly) in order to insert your god into jewish scripture. Also, prophets is not considered as important as the five books of moses.

G-D described himself numerous, if not thousands of the times, in the Torah. Example, I am the lord your god, who has taken you out of egypt. I am hashem. Countless times, in every chapter that I can think of G-D mentions himself.

In not one passage, in thousands, that G-D ever mention that there was any divine being besides him in any form.

In fact, he stated numerous times that there is no divine being other than himself.

Did G-D lie?

[Angryamerican]

See CMike's post above. The point is, Moses was not made "God" to Pharaoh, as you maintain, but more like a Lord, one over him.




I guess you missed most of the NT where Jesus is shown as having the qualities of God, the authority of God, as meriting and receiving the worship reserved for God, and so on.:dance:

Tj, whether moses was made Lord or God to Pharaoh,what God was saying is Pharaoh is subordinate to moses, the same as Christ is subordinate to His God and Father.


I can show you where "the Angel of Jehovah" has the same things if you just look back through this thread.

[Angryamerican]

According to G-D there is no "son". That would be a different entity/individual/being.

G-D made it clear in numerous passages that there is absolutely nobody but him.

How is it that in such explicityand detailed laws G-D gave the jewish people, he neglected to mention this trinity thing? Why? Wouldn't that be something important to share with the jewish people.

He told them what they can eat, how to treat animals, how much of bread they should eat on the shabbos, laws of divorce, and marriage.


Yet something so critical of God saying that there are more divine beings than him wasn't there. Why? Why? Why?

Here again are the passages where G-d made it clear that there was no one but him.

Exodus 8:10 Then he said, "Tomorrow." So he said, "May it be according to your word, that you may know that there is no one like the LORD our God.

Exodus 9:14 "For this time I will send all My plagues on you and your servants and your people, so that you may know that there is no one like Me in all the earth.

Deuteronomy 4:39 "Know therefore today, and take it to your heart, that the LORD, He is God in heaven above and on the earth below; there is no other.

Deuteronomy 32:12 "The LORD alone guided him, And there was no foreign god with him.

Deuteronomy 32:39 'See now that I, I am He, And there is no god besides Me; It is I who put to death and give life. I have wounded and it is I who heal, And there is no one who can deliver from My hand.

1 Samuel 2:2 "There is no one holy like the LORD, Indeed, there is no one besides You, Nor is there any rock like our God.

Isaiah 43:10 "You are My witnesses," declares the LORD, "And My servant whom I have chosen, So that you may know and believe Me And understand that I am He. Before Me there was no God formed, And there will be none after Me.

Isaiah 44:6 "Thus says the LORD, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, the LORD of hosts: 'I am the first and I am the last, And there is no God besides Me.

Isaiah 45:5 "I am the LORD, and there is no other; Besides Me there is no God. I will gird you, though you have not known Me;

Hey mike,just curious why all my ot bibles say that the Angels are sons of God,but in your bible every verse just show Angels of God,why?


Job 38:7 when the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

[CMike11]

Hey mike,just curious why all my ot bibles say that the Angels are sons of God,but in your bible every verse just show Angels of God,why?


Job 38:7 when the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?



I think christians are more into the sons idea i.e. son of god.

Perhaps in judaism we want to make it clear that there is only one divine being which is G-D. Angels are only messengers.

By calling them sons of god, it kind of makes them divine beings too, when they are not. They are robots.

Judaism makes it really really really clear that we believe in only one divine being.

[Fire Watch]

According to G-D there is no "son". That would be a different entity/individual/being.

G-D made it clear in numerous passages that there is absolutely nobody but him.

How is it that in such explicityand detailed laws G-D gave the jewish people, he neglected to mention this trinity thing? Why? Wouldn't that be something important to share with the jewish people.

He told them what they can eat, how to treat animals, how much of bread they should eat on the shabbos, laws of divorce, and marriage.


Yet something so critical of God saying that there are more divine beings than him wasn't there. Why? Why? Why?

Here again are the passages where G-d made it clear that there was no one but him.

Exodus 8:10 Then he said, "Tomorrow." So he said, "May it be according to your word, that you may know that there is no one like the LORD our God.

Exodus 9:14 "For this time I will send all My plagues on you and your servants and your people, so that you may know that there is no one like Me in all the earth.

Deuteronomy 4:39 "Know therefore today, and take it to your heart, that the LORD, He is God in heaven above and on the earth below; there is no other.

Deuteronomy 32:12 "The LORD alone guided him, And there was no foreign god with him.

Deuteronomy 32:39 'See now that I, I am He, And there is no god besides Me; It is I who put to death and give life. I have wounded and it is I who heal, And there is no one who can deliver from My hand.

1 Samuel 2:2 "There is no one holy like the LORD, Indeed, there is no one besides You, Nor is there any rock like our God.

Isaiah 43:10 "You are My witnesses," declares the LORD, "And My servant whom I have chosen, So that you may know and believe Me And understand that I am He. Before Me there was no God formed, And there will be none after Me.

Isaiah 44:6 "Thus says the LORD, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, the LORD of hosts: 'I am the first and I am the last, And there is no God besides Me.

Isaiah 45:5 "I am the LORD, and there is no other; Besides Me there is no God. I will gird you, though you have not known Me;
Amen! I agree 110%

I just happen to believe Jesus is that selfsame God. No trinity of persons.

[CMike11]

Would you guys please come to some concensus :))

This is pretty frustrating.

[Angryamerican]

Would you guys please come to some concensus :))

This is pretty frustrating.

Yes, one God that has never been seen by man in any form.:lol:

[Tucson Jim]

The bible is about God you are altering God if something is needed to be known about God then it should be there in the bible like God the son

The concept is clearly there, though not the exact phrase.

Kind of like "Jehovah's Witnesses" . . .

[Tucson Jim]

Like you reading the bible

If Paul believed God and Jesus were one in the same why do his letter open up with the name of both and Jesus is called lord? while the Father is called God?

Jesus is called God in the Bible too. Not in every verse, of course, but it is there, as you well know.

[Tucson Jim]

According to G-D there is no "son". That would be a different entity/individual/being.

Only according to your Unitarian view of the nature of God. I believe the Bible teaches otherwise.

G-D made it clear in numerous passages that there is absolutely nobody but him.

I agree. There is only One God.

How is it that in such explicityand detailed laws G-D gave the jewish people, he neglected to mention this trinity thing? Why? Wouldn't that be something important to share with the jewish people.

He DID share it with the Jewish people, in His own timing. Unfortunately, most of them rejected it.

He told them what they can eat, how to treat animals, how much of bread they should eat on the shabbos, laws of divorce, and marriage.

Yet something so critical of God saying that there are more divine beings than him wasn't there. Why? Why? Why?

I don't know. It seems He told them WHAT they needed to know WHEN they needed to know it.

Who are we to question His timing of Revelation?

Will you tell Him When He ought to speak certain things to His people?

Here again are the passages where G-d made it clear that there was no one but him.

Exodus 8:10 Then he said, "Tomorrow." So he said, "May it be according to your word, that you may know that there is no one like the LORD our God.

Exodus 9:14 "For this time I will send all My plagues on you and your servants and your people, so that you may know that there is no one like Me in all the earth.

Deuteronomy 4:39 "Know therefore today, and take it to your heart, that the LORD, He is God in heaven above and on the earth below; there is no other.

Deuteronomy 32:12 "The LORD alone guided him, And there was no foreign god with him.

Deuteronomy 32:39 'See now that I, I am He, And there is no god besides Me; It is I who put to death and give life. I have wounded and it is I who heal, And there is no one who can deliver from My hand.

1 Samuel 2:2 "There is no one holy like the LORD, Indeed, there is no one besides You, Nor is there any rock like our God.

Isaiah 43:10 "You are My witnesses," declares the LORD, "And My servant whom I have chosen, So that you may know and believe Me And understand that I am He. Before Me there was no God formed, And there will be none after Me.

Isaiah 44:6 "Thus says the LORD, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, the LORD of hosts: 'I am the first and I am the last, And there is no God besides Me.

Isaiah 45:5 "I am the LORD, and there is no other; Besides Me there is no God. I will gird you, though you have not known Me;

None of these contradict the Trinity. We also believe there is only one God. We just believe He has revealed something more about His nature in the new Testament - that he is Tri-Une - three in One.

Still One, though. Don't forget that important part of this discussion.

We believe there is One God.

[Tucson Jim]

Trinity by defiinition means three. G-D said there is only him. That's one.

Inherent in the Christian concept of Trinity is "Tri-unity". Three in One, There is only One God, and His nature is Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

[Tucson Jim]

I am not used to agreeing with DRS.

I guess in these debates the enemy of my enemy is my friend.

Funny, I don't consider you my "enemy".

Why wasn't in the torah?

God's timing.

Why didn't He release the Jews from slavery in Egypt before He did?

Why didn't He do, or reveal, numerous things at different times than He actually did?

Paul speaks of this principle in Ephesians 3. I refer you to the whole chapter for context, but especially verses 3-5:

"that by revelation there was made known to me the mystery, as I wrote before in brief.

4By referring to this, when you read you can understand my insight into the mystery of Christ,

5which in other generations was not made known to the sons of men, as it has now been revealed to His holy apostles and prophets in the Spirit;" (emphasis mine, of course)

In short, God reveals WHAT He wants, WHEN He wants, TO WHOM He wants.

He's God.

He's allowed . . .

[Tucson Jim]

G-D can do whatever he wants. However, he will not lie.

G-D would not create or have a separate divine entity.

True, but I remind you - Tri-unity, separate, yet one Being. One God.

Why? Because he said so numerous times. G-D said "There is no other".

That's it. There is only the one G-D. No other divine beings exist. 1.

Exactly right - One God. That's what trinitarians believe.

And no the Isaiah passage has absolutely nothing to do with jesus.

Nothing in the Torah (five books of moses) or prophets, or any other type of jewish scripture has anything to do with jesus.

If jesus truely was a divine being sent by G-D, G-D would have said so.

With all due respect, that is merely your opinion, nothing more. In fact, you do not know what God "would" or "would not" say in any given situation. No offense, just a fact.

It wouldn't be necessarily to find things that look obscure in prophets (which is written poetically and flowerly) in order to insert your god into jewish scripture.

More opinion . . . interesting, but . . .

Also, prophets is not considered as important as the five books of moses.

By whom?

No "flowery" poetry is necessary - the New Testament says it plainly:

“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God…. No one has ever seen God, but God the One and Only, who is at the Father's side, has made him known.” – John 1:1

“Thomas said to him, ‘My Lord and my God!’” – John 20:28

"You are worthy, our Lord and God, to receive glory and honor and power, for you created all things, and by your will they were created and have their being." – Revelation 4:11 (the words of the 24 elders to Jesus).

"…Be shepherds of the church of God, which he bought with his own blood.” – Acts 20:28

“…the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ” – Titus 2:13

“…To those who through the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ have received a faith as precious as ours” – 2 Peter 1:1

G-D described himself numerous, if not thousands of the times, in the Torah. Example, I am the lord your god, who has taken you out of egypt. I am hashem. Countless times, in every chapter that I can think of G-D mentions himself.

In not one passage, in thousands, that G-D ever mention that there was any divine being besides him in any form.

In fact, he stated numerous times that there is no divine being other than himself.

Did G-D lie?

No, He cannot lie. There is truly no Being Who is God other than God.

We are not saying there is.

We are saying the Father , Son and Holy Spirit ARE the One God.

[Tucson Jim]

I think christians are more into the sons idea i.e. son of god.

Perhaps in judaism we want to make it clear that there is only one divine being which is G-D. Angels are only messengers.

By calling them sons of god, it kind of makes them divine beings too, when they are not. They are robots.

Judaism makes it really really really clear that we believe in only one divine being.

And we really, really, really believe in only One God also!

[Tucson Jim]

Amen! I agree 110%

I just happen to believe Jesus is that selfsame God. No trinity of persons.

And THAT is one of the things we love about you!

The "Jesus is God" part, I mean . . . :)

[Tucson Jim]

Would you guys please come to some concensus :))

This is pretty frustrating.

But we have . . . :)

[the oldtimer]

But we have . . . :)

Me to, I agree........:dance:

[johnjay1788]

The Didache
"After the foregoing instructions, baptize in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, in living [running] water. . . . If you have neither, pour water three times on the head, in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit" (Didache 7:1 [A.D. 70]).


Irenaeus learned from Polycarp... who was a disciple of John...

Irenaeus
"For the Church, although dispersed throughout the whole world even to the ends of the earth, has received from the apostles and from their disciples the faith in one God, the Father Almighty . . . and in one Jesus Christ, the Son of God, who became flesh for our salvation; and in the Holy Spirit" (Against Heresies 1:10:1 [A.D. 189]).


Justin Martyr
"We will prove that we worship him reasonably; for we have learned that he is the Son of the true God himself, that he holds a second place, and the Spirit of prophecy a third. For this they accuse us of madness, saying that we attribute to a crucified man a place second to the unchangeable and eternal God, the Creator of all things; but they are ignorant of the mystery which lies therein" (First Apology 13:5–6 [A.D. 151]).


Novatian
"For Scripture as much announces Christ as also God, as it announces God himself as man. It has as much described Jesus Christ to be man, as moreover it has also described Christ the Lord to be God. Because it does not set forth him to be the Son of God only, but also the son of man; nor does it only say, the son of man, but it has also been accustomed to speak of him as the Son of God. So that being of both, he is both, lest if he should be one only, he could not be the other. For as nature itself has prescribed that he must be believed to be a man who is of man, so the same nature prescribes also that he must be believed to be God who is of God. . . . Let them, therefore, who read that Jesus Christ the son of man is man, read also that this same Jesus is called also God and the Son of God" (Treatise on the Trinity 11 [A.D. 235]).


Gregory the Wonderworker
"There is one God. . . . There is a perfect Trinity, in glory and eternity and sovereignty, neither divided nor estranged. Wherefore there is nothing either created or in servitude in the Trinity; nor anything superinduced, as if at some former period it was non-existent, and at some later period it was introduced. And thus neither was the Son ever wanting to the Father, nor the Spirit to the Son; but without variation and without change, the same Trinity abides ever" (Declaration of Faith [A.D. 265]).


Augustine
"All the Catholic interpreters of the divine books of the Old and New Testaments whom I have been able to read, who wrote before me about the Trinity, which is God, intended to teach in accord with the Scriptures that the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit are of one and the same substance constituting a divine unity with an inseparable equality; and therefore there are not three gods but one God, although the Father begot the Son, and therefore he who is the Son is not the Father; and the Holy Spirit is neither the Father nor the Son but only the Spirit of the Father and of the Son, himself, too, coequal to the Father and to the Son and belonging to the unity of the Trinity" (The Trinity 1:4:7 [A.D. 408]).

[DRS]

Jesus is called God in the Bible too. Not in every verse, of course, but it is there, as you well know.

And there are others called god also in the bible, but there is no one else in the bible that this can be said about

(Psalm 83:18) That people may know that you, whose name is Jehovah, You alone are the Most High over all the earth.


Exodus 6:2*And God went on to speak to Moses and to say to him: “I am Jehovah. 3*And I used to appear to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob as God Almighty, but as respects my name Jehovah I did not make myself known to the


Now since messiah is anointed by, serves Jehovah then he is not Jehovah

[muhadeeb99]

I do not normally make comments in this religious thread. It will take me time to go through the various comments to get a feel for the posts therein. I believe I am knowledgeable in a wide variety of belief systems and cultural backgrounds.

I have been initially taught to believe in one God through a Lutheran stand point. I have since, from 45 years ago gone on to research other beliefs, but not embraced any single religion. I can not be persuaded to settle on one and that is not a challenge.

[Tucson Jim]

And there are others called god also in the bible,

And I have done my best to show you in great detail the INFINITE difference between these so-called "gods" and THE ONE who became man for our sakes. Yet you persist in equating them.

Nor have you even attempted to respond to the numerous points in my recent post showing you all the differences between Jesus and Moses.

I am sorry you are seemingly unwilling or unable to discern the infinite differences between Jesus and the other ones called "gods" in the Bible.

but there is no one else in the bible that this can be said about

(Psalm 83:18) That people may know that you, whose name is Jehovah, You alone are the Most High over all the earth.


Exodus 6:2*And God went on to speak to Moses and to say to him: “I am Jehovah. 3*And I used to appear to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob as God Almighty, but as respects my name Jehovah I did not make myself known to the

Jesus is Jehovah.


Now since messiah is anointed by, serves Jehovah then he is not Jehovah

Merely your opinion, DRS. But thanks for sharing.

[Tucson Jim]

I do not normally make comments in this religious thread. It will take me time to go through the various comments to get a feel for the posts therein. I believe I am knowledgeable in a wide variety of belief systems and cultural backgrounds.

I have been initially taught to believe in one God through a Lutheran stand point. I have since, from 45 years ago gone on to research other beliefs, but not embraced any single religion. I can not be persuaded to settle on one and that is not a challenge.

Well then, we look forward to your comments from such a wide variety of religious knowledge.

Welcome!

[DRS]

And I have done my best to show you in great detail the INFINITE difference between these so-called "gods" and THE ONE who became man for our sakes. Yet you persist in equating them.

Nor have you even attempted to respond to the numerous points in my recent post showing you all the differences between Jesus and Moses.

I am sorry you are seemingly unwilling or unable to discern the infinite differences between Jesus and the other ones called "gods" in the Bible.



Jesus is Jehovah.




Merely your opinion, DRS. But thanks for sharing.


It is my opinion that the messiah is anointed and serves Jehovah?


As I have shown you the differnces between Jehovah and Jesus

[Angryamerican]

And I have done my best to show you in great detail the INFINITE difference between these so-called "gods" and THE ONE who became man for our sakes. Yet you persist in equating them.

Nor have you even attempted to respond to the numerous points in my recent post showing you all the differences between Jesus and Moses.

I am sorry you are seemingly unwilling or unable to discern the infinite differences between Jesus and the other ones called "gods" in the Bible.



Jesus is Jehovah.




Merely your opinion, DRS. But thanks for sharing.


There is infinite differences between all who is considered greater.

Just like the differences between God and Jesus one is Almighty and one is not,one has always existed and the other has not,one was created and the other was not.

But would you not agree they are similar but not equal ?

Just like Jesus and moses, one is for sure greater than the other,but they were similar.

But remember it was Jesus that moses was speaking to and being lead by.

Jesus never claimed to be equal to God nor did moses claim to be equal to the son of God.

[CMike11]

Inherent in the Christian concept of Trinity is "Tri-unity". Three in One, There is only One God, and His nature is Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

The problem is that jesus was a separate individual being who said that:

1) He prayed to god

2) That he is subordinate to god

3) That everyone can only get to god through him

That makes an individual divine entity, not matter how you cut it.

[the oldtimer]

As it appears in the pamphlet
"Should you believe in the trinity".
"The word Trinity is not found in the Bible", (The Illustrated Bible Dictionary) Implying, that the trinity is not biblical. Very misleading IMO.

The first paragraph of the 3 page article, on the trinity in (The Illustrated Bible Dictionary) goes on to say this.

"The word Trinity is not found in the Bible, and though used by Tertullian in the last decade of the 2nd century, it did not find a place formally in the theology of the church till the 4th century. It is, however, the distinctive and all-comprehensive doctrine of the Christian faith. It makes three affirmations: That there is but one God, that the Father, the Son, and the Spirit is each a distinct Person. In this form it has become the faith of the Church since it received its first full formulation at the hands of Tertullian, Athanasius, and Augustine".

It goes on to say .
"1. Derivation

Though it is not a Biblical doctrine in the sense that any formulation of it can be found in the Bible,it can be seen to underlie the revelation of God, implicit in the OT, and explicit in the NT. By this we mean that we cannot speak confidently of the revelation of the Trinity in the OT, yet once the substance of the doctrine has been revealed in the NT, we can read back many implications of it in the OT".

[Angryamerican]

As it appears in the pamphlet
"Should you believe in the trinity".
"The word Trinity is not found in the Bible", (The Illustrated Bible Dictionary) Implying, that the trinity is not biblical. Very misleading IMO.

The first paragraph of the 3 page article, on the trinity in (The Illustrated Bible Dictionary) goes on to say this.

"The word Trinity is not found in the Bible, and though used by Tertullian in the last decade of the 2nd century, it did not find a place formally in the theology of the church till the 4th century. It is, however, the distinctive and all-comprehensive doctrine of the Christian faith. It makes three affirmations: That there is but one God, that the Father, the Son, and the Spirit is each a distinct Person. In this form it has become the faith of the Church since it received its first full formulation at the hands of Tertullian, Athanasius, and Augustine".

It goes on to say .
"1. Derivation

Though it is not a Biblical doctrine in the sense that any formulation of it can be found in the Bible,it can be seen to underlie the revelation of God, implicit in the OT, and explicit in the NT. By this we mean that we cannot speak confidently of the revelation of the Trinity in the OT, yet once the substance of the doctrine has been revealed in the NT, we can read back many implications of it in the OT".

Are you implying that the Jews for 4,000 years believed in a triune God ?

Or are you implying the Jews worshiped a God they did not know ?

Either way, the trinity doctrine did not become doctrine until almost 400 years after the death of Christ, through the nicene creed.

[the oldtimer]

Are you implying that the Jews for 4,000 years believed in a triune God ?

Or are you implying the Jews worshiped a God they did not know ?
To assume that I am making that implication, IMO, is just plain silly.

Either way, the trinity doctrine did not become doctrine until almost 400 years after the death of Christ, through the nicene creed.
Then, why is the word used by Tertullian, in the latter decades of the 2nd century.

[gpd®]

Then, why is the word used by Tertullian, in the latter decades of the 2nd century.

I either forgot or didn't know that cool factoid.

[Angryamerican]

To assume that I am making that implication, IMO, is just plain silly.


Then, why is the word used by Tertullian, in the latter decades of the 2nd century.

Did you understand what the council of nicene did ?

[Angryamerican]

To assume that I am making that implication, IMO, is just plain silly.


Then, why is the word used by Tertullian, in the latter decades of the 2nd century.

If you suggest the trinity is in the ot, than yes you are implying what i asked.

[Angryamerican]

To assume that I am making that implication, IMO, is just plain silly.


Then, why is the word used by Tertullian, in the latter decades of the 2nd century.


You answer the question you brought it up.

There was a battle going on between trinitarians and unitarians and

Emperor Constantine ordered the Fathers of the First Council of Nicaea to resolve the issue.

Now i ask you how many jews sat on that council ?

[CMike11]

To assume that I am making that implication, IMO, is just plain silly.


Then, why is the word used by Tertullian, in the latter decades of the 2nd century.

I think the Angry one asked some good questions.

[Angryamerican]

I think the Angry one asked some good questions.

Before he continues to use Tertullian as a source he might want to research who and what Tertullian was.

He had pagan parents,and some of his writings were accepted for doctrine by the catholic church.

Constantine was also a pagan that believed in a triune God from a pagan religion before converting to Christianity just like Tertullian,but this information gets ignored.

He was also seen as an apologist.

[CMike11]

I never heard of him.

Wasn't he in a Star Trek episode?

[CMike11]

There is infinite differences between all who is considered greater.

Just like the differences between God and Jesus one is Almighty and one is not,one has always existed and the other has not,one was created and the other was not.

But would you not agree they are similar but not equal ?

Just like Jesus and moses, one is for sure greater than the other,but they were similar.

But remember it was Jesus that moses was speaking to and being lead by.

Jesus never claimed to be equal to God nor did moses claim to be equal to the son of God.

Actually Moses was far more than equal to jesus, according to judaism.

[CMike11]

Jim obviously G-D can do what he wants when he wants.

However, why would he. As I stated G-D described himself perhaps thousands of times in the Torah. He was very explicit. Yet he mentioned nothing about other divine beings other than himself.

He made it extremely explicit that there is only him.

And I think that although jesus himself called himself the son of god, prayed to got, and that he is subordinate to god, that he is the same exact god as the actual G-D. It makes no sense.

Have you considered that G-D when he said that there was no one but him in any manner meant it?

[Angryamerican]

I never heard of him.

Wasn't he in a Star Trek episode?

He converted to Christianity and was considered one of the church fathers of the catholic church.

I'm not sure if my trinitarians friends know that most of their beliefs of the deity of God came from the latin brothers of the catholic church.

I know this may fall on deaf ears,but, Jesus never mentioned the trinity nor did any of his deciples nor did God ;)

That seems to be an open and shut case to me,that is only a view that came from man.

[Angryamerican]

Actually Moses was far more than equal to jesus, according to judaism.

Yeah i know that is your view, but i am a Christian :))

[Abe]

I never heard of him.

Wasn't he in a Star Trek episode?Mikey, everyone was in Star Trek, from Apollo to the US Constitution.

I'm a Trekie from way back, but my favourite absurdity was to take a Swahili word - Uhuru (Freedom), and form a feminine parallel - Uhura. Swahili is not a gender-specific language. For example: Friend (Rafiki) is the same word and it doesn't matter if you're talking about a girlfriend or a boyfriend. Using Uhura was an Anglicising of Swahili.

[Angryamerican]

Jim obviously G-D can do what he wants when he wants.

However, why would he. As I stated G-D described himself perhaps thousands of times in the Torah. He was very explicit. Yet he mentioned nothing about other divine beings other than himself.

He made it extremely explicit that there is only him.

And I think that although jesus himself called himself the son of god, prayed to got, and that he is subordinate to god, that he is the same exact god as the actual G-D. It makes no sense.

Have you considered that G-D when he said that there was no one but him in any manner meant it?

I was asked a question by one of my trinitarian friends on here that totally messed me up and caused me to doubt in Christ and Christianity.

The question was who was Christ before he came to the earth to become a man if he was not God.


It caused me to turn to jewish thought,and still could not find the answer. I was truly frustrated and confused.So i never prayed so hard in my life and still got no answer. One day i was reading my online bible,and without sounding crazy,i felt a presence like i have never felt before all my doubts disappeared i felt no concerns,it was the greatest feeling i have ever felt.

Than i started writing on this trinity thread and i was reading my online bible and i was hit with a flood of scripture showing me who Christ was.

So i was reading from both my online bible and the online chabad.org.

I wrote ten pages with responses on this thread but the strange thing was these scriptures before i guess i missed the meaning of them.

But what was so interesting was who Jesus was. i will now post from the online chabad.org. Can you tell me who is speaking here ?

21. There is substance to give inheritance to those who love me, and I will fill their treasuries. כא.
22. The Lord acquired me at the beginning of His way, before His works of old. כב.
23. From the distant past I was enthroned, from the beginning, of those that preceded the earth. כג.
24. I was created when there were yet no deeps, when there were no fountains replete with water. כד.
25. I was created before the mountains were sunk, before the hills; כה.
26. when He had not yet made the land and the outsides and the beginning of the dust of the earth. כו.
27. When He established the heavens, there I was, when He drew a circle over the face of the deep; כז.
28. when He made the skies above firm, when He strengthened the fountains of the deep; כח.
29. when He gave the sea its boundary, and the water shall not transgress His command, when He established the foundations of the earth כט.
30. I was a nursling beside Him, and I was [His] delight every day, playing before Him at all times; ל.
31. playing in the habitable world of His earth, and [having] my delights with the children of man. לא.
32. And now, my children, hearken to me, and fortunate are those who observe my ways. לב.
33. Hearken to discipline and become wise, and do not put it to naught. לג.
34. Fortunate is the man who listens to me to watch by my doors day by day, to watch the doorposts of my entrances. לד.
35. For he who has found me has found life, and he has obtained favor from the Lord. לה.
36. But he who sins against me robs his soul; all who hate me, love death."

The question i asked you the other day about why in your bible it says the Angels of God but in my bible it says sons of God. Jesus was the one and only Arch Angel Michael,the highest ranking Angel.

This is the Angel that stood up for Israel and the Angel that lead Israel and the Angel that appeared to moses in the burning bush.

And that is who is speaking in proverbs what i posted.

[CMike11]

It's talking about studying Torah, according to the Vilna Gaon (Gaon means genius. He was a big rabbi. The name means the Genius From Vilna).

Excellent question.

Angels, in judaism, are only messengers of G-D. They don't have free will. They are like robots.

Also an angel wasn't in the burning bush.

The burning bush was created by G-D so Moses had a point of reference to talk to G-D.

[CMike11]

Yeah i know that is your view, but i am a Christian :))

Yeah...I figured.

[Angryamerican]

Actually Moses was far more than equal to jesus, according to judaism.


Something else for you to consider, Here is this Angel again and Gods name is within him.

Exodus 23:20-21

20. Behold, I am sending an angel before you to guard you on the way and to bring you to the place that I have prepared. כ. הִנֵּה אָנֹכִי שֹׁלֵחַ מַלְאָךְ לְפָנֶיךָ לִשְׁמָרְךָ בַּדָּרֶךְ וְלַהֲבִיאֲךָ אֶל הַמָּקוֹם אֲשֶׁר הֲכִנֹתִי:
21. Beware of him and obey him; do not rebel against him, for he will not forgive your transgression, for My Name is within him.

[CMike11]

It's actually King Solomon speaking in Prov 18:21

[CMike11]

Something else for you to consider, Here is this Angel again and Gods name is within him.

Exodus 23:20-21

20. Behold, I am sending an angel before you to guard you on the way and to bring you to the place that I have prepared. כ. הִנֵּה אָנֹכִי שֹׁלֵחַ מַלְאָךְ לְפָנֶיךָ לִשְׁמָרְךָ בַּדָּרֶךְ וְלַהֲבִיאֲךָ אֶל הַמָּקוֹם אֲשֶׁר הֲכִנֹתִי:
21. Beware of him and obey him; do not rebel against him, for he will not forgive your transgression, for My Name is within him.

That is the angel Metatron. The numerical value of his name an that of G-D is the same 314. By numerical I mean like A=1, b=2, c=3. Then you add up the letter of the word and you have the numerical value.

Below is the Rashi on it.

for My Name is within him: [This clause] is connected to the beginning of the verse: Beware of him because My Name is associated with him. Our Sages, however, said: This is [the angel] Metatron, whose name is like the name of his Master (Sanh. 38b). The numerical value of מֵטַטְרוֹן [314] equals that of שַׁדַּי [314]. -[From Tikunei Zohar 66b]

[Angryamerican]

It's actually King Solomon speaking in Prov 18:21

So solomon was created before the mountains was ?

And he played as a nursling at his side ?

Are we to follow solomons statutes ?

And an eternal God has no beginning.

And an Almighty and all knowing God would he not already possess wisdom ?

[the oldtimer]

Did you understand what the council of nicene did ?
Of course I do! They took a doctrine that was being taught by the church, and made it official. Do you think, this was something someone thought up just for the Nicene Counsel. Why, do you seem to think that the church cannot have order in what we believe. Again, why, was it taught in the last decade of the 2nd century.

[Angryamerican]

That is the angel Metatron. The numerical value of his name an that of G-D is the same 314. By numerical I mean like A=1, b=2, c=3. Then you add up the letter of the word and you have the numerical value.

Below is the Rashi on it.

for My Name is within him: [This clause] is connected to the beginning of the verse: Beware of him because My Name is associated with him. Our Sages, however, said: This is [the angel] Metatron, whose name is like the name of his Master (Sanh. 38b). The numerical value of מֵטַטְרוֹן [314] equals that of שַׁדַּי [314]. -[From Tikunei Zohar 66b]

From my studies there is only one Arch Angel and he is the highest ranking Angel Michael.

[CMike11]

So solomon was created before the mountains was ?

And he played as a nursling at his side ?

Are we to follow solomons statutes ?

And an eternal God has no beginning.

And an Almighty and all knowing God would he not already possess wisdom ?

No it's talking about studying Torah and loving G-D.

[Angryamerican]

Of course I do! They took a doctrine that was being taught by the church, and made it official. Do you think, this was something someone thought up just for the Nicene Counsel. Why, do you seem to think that the church cannot have order in what we believe. Again, why, was it taught in the last decade of the 2nd century.

Catholics believed it that is true, before the the council made it official.

[Angryamerican]

No it's talking about studying Torah.

Nice talking to you i have to go get the kids from school.


Happy Hunting.:mrgreen:

[DRS]

As it appears in the pamphlet
"Should you believe in the trinity".
"The word Trinity is not found in the Bible", (The Illustrated Bible Dictionary) Implying, that the trinity is not biblical. Very misleading IMO.

The first paragraph of the 3 page article, on the trinity in (The Illustrated Bible Dictionary) goes on to say this.

"The word Trinity is not found in the Bible, and though used by Tertullian in the last decade of the 2nd century, it did not find a place formally in the theology of the church till the 4th century. It is, however, the distinctive and all-comprehensive doctrine of the Christian faith. It makes three affirmations: That there is but one God, that the Father, the Son, and the Spirit is each a distinct Person. In this form it has become the faith of the Church since it received its first full formulation at the hands of Tertullian, Athanasius, and Augustine".

It goes on to say .
"1. Derivation

Though it is not a Biblical doctrine in the sense that any formulation of it can be found in the Bible,it can be seen to underlie the revelation of God, implicit in the OT, and explicit in the NT. By this we mean that we cannot speak confidently of the revelation of the Trinity in the OT, yet once the substance of the doctrine has been revealed in the NT, we can read back many implications of it in the OT".


After you have imposed neoplatonic thought on the NT can you go back and try and find it

Also you have to ignore the use of god for others in the OT

[CMike11]

Nice talking to you i have to go get the kids from school.


Happy Hunting.:mrgreen:

Thank you.

My wife and I have a flu, so I am having trouble concentrating:((

[the oldtimer]

Before he continues to use Tertullian as a source he might want to research who and what Tertullian was.
I know full well who, and what, Tertuillian was. He was one of what are called the Fathers of the Church.
He had pagan parents,and some of his writings were accepted for doctrine by the catholic church.
He had pagan parents. What on earth does that have to do with anything in this post. What you are trying to do is called guilt by association, and simply an attempt to distract the readers. Shame on you! Some of His writings were accepted by the Catholic Church!!! SO, WHAT????
Constantine was also a pagan that believed in a triune God from a pagan religion before converting to Christianity just like Tertullian,but this information gets ignored.
You simply do not know,if either one was "a pagan"before they accepted Christ as their Lord and Savior, and it should very clearly make no difference what they were "BEFORE". That statement is also nothing but silly IMO.
He was also seen as an apologist.

Apologist means, "defender of the faith". And what ,did He defend the faith against?? Non- trinitarians!!!

[the oldtimer]

Catholics believed it that is true, before the the council made it official.

AA, I cannot believe it! Do you realize, that you agreed with me!!!

[the oldtimer]

After you have imposed neoplatonic thought on the NT can you go back and try and find it

Also you have to ignore the use of god for others in the OT

You, are welcome to your own opinions, but that is all they are.

[Angryamerican]

AA, I cannot believe it! Do you realize, that you agreed with me!!!

For once you said something that i agree with ;)

Now you have to ask yourself did Christ build the Catholic church ?

And if he did how come you are not Catholic ?

[Angryamerican]

No it's talking about studying Torah and loving G-D.

You see mike ,just to clarify we are saying the same thing.

You call it the Torah and i call it the word of God or the bible.

He is that word that was speaking in proverbs chapter 8.

The word in my beliefs is Jesus,God gave us his word through his son Jesus.

[CMike11]

Angry One if G-D wanted that to happen, he would have explicitly said so in the Torah.

You wouldn't have to go searching for scripture that is poetic and flowerly in order to try and insert jesus into it, where he was never intended to be.

If G-D really was into this son of god stuff, it would have been clearly stated, in the five books of Moses. In fact numerous times G-D said the opposite clearly and succinctly that there was no one else but him that is divine in any manner.

G-D went into intricate detail into just about every single matter that could effect the jews. It is inconceivable that, if true, G-D wouldn't have clearly told the jews this.

I know you are christian and you aren't going to believe this, but we are talking about jews and jewish scripture.

G-D told the jews what he wanted them to do through the Torah.

How do we know this? One way is from the passages you quoted from Proverbs 8.

[Angryamerican]

Angry One if G-D wanted that to happen, he would have explicitly said so in the Torah.

You wouldn't have to go searching for scripture that is poetic and flowerly in order to try and insert jesus into it, where he was never intended to be.

If G-D really was into this son of god stuff, it would have been clearly stated, in the five books of Moses. In fact numerous times G-D said the opposite clearly and succinctly that there was no one else but him that is divine in any manner.

G-D went into intricate detail into just about every single matter that could effect the jews. It is inconceivable that, if true, G-D wouldn't have clearly told the jews this.

I know you are christian and you aren't going to believe this, but we are talking about jews and jewish scripture.

G-D told the jews what he wanted them to do through the Torah.

How do we know this? One way is from the passages you quoted from Proverbs 8.

So no one is considered a son of God in your beliefs ?

[CMike11]

One divine being in Judaism. That's it.

Angels are messengers of G-D.

[DispensationalJim]

One divine being in Judaism. That's it.

Angels are messengers of G-D.

I'm sure this was brought up quite awhile back, but since we keep going in circles of redundancy on here, how about we do this one again, also.

• Gen. 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

As I recall, some insist that the "us" and "our" is including the angels, but I don't believe man was made in the image of angels, do you?

Maybe you can give us your understanding of the Hebrew, at least.

Thanks, Mike.

[CMike11]

Hi Jim,

As you said we keep going in circles.

It's a lesson in humility for man. G-D himself created man, however, he is including the angels, to show man that they should be humble.

[Fire Watch]

I'm sure this was brought up quite awhile back, but since we keep going in circles of redundancy on here, how about we do this one again, also.

• Gen. 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness..

http://bestsmileys.com/waving/4.gif oh oh me me me!

Reading this post might cause one to believe that you see no evidence of Christ before the incarnation. Surely that is not the case. You must be aware of the clear teaching of the eternal nature of Jesus.

Before the creation God counseled with him saying "Let us make man in our image".

Considering the strict monotheism of the Old Testament, trying to find a plurality of persons here doesnt seem logical.

We know that this passage in Genesis 1:26 cant mean that there was anyone besides God who created. Yahweh said Himself, "I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself (Not OURselves)" (Isaiah 44:24). Malachi said, "Have we not all one father? hath not one God created us?" (Malachi 2:10). Its very clear that there is only one Creator, and He is Yahweh.

Directly following God's use of plural pronouns in verse twenty-six it is said that "God created man in his own (not their) image, in the image of God created he him...." (Genesis 2:27) Clearly it was one image in which man was created. He wasnt created in two or more images.

God was speaking to angels in these passages. The grammar of these verses support this view. The grammar of Genesis 1:26 is.. God (plural) said (third person masculine singular), Let us make (first person common plural) man (singular masculine noun) in our image ("image" is a first person common plural suffix), after our likeness ("likeness" is a feminine singular noun with a first person common plural suffix)." The plural pronouns "us" and "our" must be referring to someone other than God because the verb used in connection with "God" is singular.

The very fact that God uses singular pronouns when speaking of Himself in thousands of cases causes us to question why some would try to find a plurality of persons here.


The Old Testament doesnt teach or imply a plurality of persons in the Godhead. We can satisfactorily explain all Old Testament passages used by trinitarians to teach a plurality of persons, harmonizing them with the many other passages that unequivocally teach strict monotheism. Certainly the Jews have found no difficulty in accepting all the Old Testament as God's Word and at the same time adhering to their belief in one indivisible God. From start to finish, and without contradiction, the Old Testament teaches the beautiful truth of one God...one personage that is God..not a corporate being.

[CMike11]

Show off :razz:

And strangely I agree with you.

[Fire Watch]

Show off :razz:
Not so much. Every 173.24 posts, the subject matter recycles and begins again. I dont post anything new, I simply search through my old posts, and post them again. It's great for upping your post count.

[CMike11]

:)) Good point.

[lwdc]

Not so much. Every 173.24 posts, the subject matter recycles and begins again. I dont post anything new, I simply search through my old posts, and post them again. It's great for upping your post count.Is there any member here (yet) with a six-figure post-count?

[Fire Watch]

Is there any member here (yet) with a six-figure post-count?
No. I have the highest post count on the board. tha malcontent is currently the #2 with 63,576..almost 20k behind me.

[CMike11]

Can we trade them in for dollars at some point? :whistle:

[Fire Watch]

I already have ;)

[DispensationalJim]

Hi Jim,

As you said we keep going in circles.

It's a lesson in humility for man. G-D himself created man, however, he is including the angels, to show man that they should be humble.

Speaking of humility, several of us have posted this passage many times, which IMO shows that Jesus was God, but humbled Himself and MADE HIMSELF INTO A MAN so He could die on the cross for our sins.

• Phil. 2:5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: 6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: 7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: 8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

[Tucson Jim]

The problem is that jesus was a separate individual being who said that:

1) He prayed to god

2) That he is subordinate to god

3) That everyone can only get to god through him

That makes an individual divine entity, not matter how you cut it.

No, I'm sorry, it does not, at least not in the sense of a separate god as I believe you are saying.

Tri - Une - Three in One.

Three Persons.

One God.

[Tucson Jim]

It is my opinion that the messiah is anointed and serves Jehovah?

No, it is your opinion Jesus is not Jehovah.


As I have shown you the differnces between Jehovah and Jesus

You consistently attempt to equate things that are manifestly not equal.

Like the "gods" thing.

And here, I tell you I have shown you the INFINITE differences between the so-called "gods" and Jesus and you try to equate that with the relatively minor differences we see between the the Father and the Son, differences we have explained to you numerous times in terms of the Economy of the Trinity.

Sorry, but it doesn't wash . . .

[Tucson Jim]

There is infinite differences between all who is considered greater.

Sorry, I have no idea what you are trying to say here.

Just like the differences between God and Jesus one is Almighty and one is not,one has always existed and the other has not,one was created and the other was not.

Jesus is Almighty, Eternal and Uncreated, as we have already shown countless times from the scriptures.

But would you not agree they are similar but not equal ?

No thank you Arius.

Just like Jesus and moses, one is for sure greater than the other,but they were similar.

You have GOT to be kidding! The Omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent, eternal Creator of the universe is similar to Moses?

But remember it was Jesus that moses was speaking to and being lead by.

Jesus never claimed to be equal to God nor did moses claim to be equal to the son of God.

Jesus didn't need to claim it - the Bible does that for Him.

And yes, Moses was smart enough to realize he was not God.

[Tucson Jim]

Did you understand what the council of nicene did ?

Um . . . that's "Nicea" for future reference.

[Tucson Jim]

Jim obviously G-D can do what he wants when he wants.

With a few exceptions, I agree.

However, why would he.

Not being omniscient, I don't know.

As I stated G-D described himself perhaps thousands of times in the Torah. He was very explicit. Yet he mentioned nothing about other divine beings other than himself.

We are not saying there are "other divine beings". There is only one God. It is the nature of the One God we disagree about.

He made it extremely explicit that there is only him.

A fact with which trinitarians agree - there is only One God.

And I think that although jesus himself called himself the son of god, prayed to got, and that he is subordinate to god, that he is the same exact god as the actual G-D. It makes no sense.

I know. The nature of the Eternal One is . . . difficult to comprehend. Somehow, though, I guess I am not terribly surprised by that.

Would we expect God to be . . . simple?

Have you considered that G-D when he said that there was no one but him in any manner meant it?

Of course he meant it. And I believe it.

[Finality]

...
Would we expect God to be . . . simple?
...
I, for one, would expect a god at least to be internally and logically consistent.

Saying god is too complex to understand sounds like taking the easy way out.

Complexity doesn't explain why a single god would pray to itself.

[Tucson Jim]

I, for one, would expect a god at least to be internally and logically consistent.

Please explain clearly how a triune God is not "logically consistent".

Saying god is too complex to understand sounds like taking the easy way out.

So then God is not complex, he is a simple Being . . . is that your position? Please explain.

Complexity doesn't explain why a single god would pray to itself.

No, but Triunity explains how God the Son could pray to God the Father and yet there is still only One God.

[DispensationalJim]

I, for one, would expect a god at least to be internally and logically consistent.

Saying god is too complex to understand sounds like taking the easy way out.

Complexity doesn't explain why a single god would pray to itself.

IMO, there is nothing complex about a man named Jesus, who happened to be the Son of God (or as we see it, God the Son), praying to His Holy Father.

As I posted earlier, according to Phil. 2, God the Son MADE HIMSELF INTO A MAN so He could die for our sins (since obviously God cannot die).While in the body of a man, Jesus -- who created everything in the beginning (John 1:1-3, etc.) -- was totally dependent on His heavenly Father. I see that as an incredible act of humility on His part.

=============================

Then again, I believe God did make it clear that we may not always understand His ways:
• Is. 55:8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. 9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.
• Heb. 3:10 Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways.

[CMike11]

I, for one, would expect a god at least to be internally and logically consistent.

Saying god is too complex to understand sounds like taking the easy way out.

Complexity doesn't explain why a single god would pray to itself.

+1

Person doing the praying = 1

Person being prayed too = 1

1+1=2

[CMike11]

And yes, Moses was smart enough to realize he was not God.

Respectfully, it seems that jesus wasn't.

[CMike11]

No, I'm sorry, it does not, at least not in the sense of a separate god as I believe you are saying.

Tri - Une - Three in One.

Three Persons.

One God.

Three persons are three persons.

There is no such thing as one G-D with three different persons.

At least not in the G-D that the jews know that took them out of Egypt and gave them the Torah.

And if there was G-D would have said so in the Torah. He didn't.

Your god is a different god than my G-D.

[CMike11]

Speaking of humility, several of us have posted this passage many times, which IMO shows that Jesus was God, but humbled Himself and MADE HIMSELF INTO A MAN so He could die on the cross for our sins.

• Phil. 2:5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: 6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: 7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: 8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.


G-D doesn't need to die for anyone's sins. He can wipe out anyone's sins for any reason at any time.

However, it's the struggle to avoid doing the bad thing that brings us closer to G-D. Otherwise we are like angels, robots.

[CMike11]

Please explain clearly how a triune God is not "logically consistent".



So then God is not complex, he is a simple Being . . . is that your position? Please explain.



No, but Triunity explains how God the Son could pray to God the Father and yet there is still only One God.

Not to me.

[Tucson Jim]

+1

Person doing the praying = 1

Person being prayed too = 1

1+1=2


Correct.

2 Persons, 1 God.

[Tucson Jim]

Respectfully, it seems that jesus wasn't.

Not sure if such a statement can be done "respectfully" Mike.

It's kind of like saying "Respectfully, your God is an idiot", is it not?

[Tucson Jim]

Three persons are three persons.

There is no such thing as one G-D with three different persons.

As far as you know . . .

At least not in the G-D that the jews know that took them out of Egypt and gave them the Torah.

According to your understanding, based on the revelation in the OT.

And if there was G-D would have said so in the Torah. He didn't.

Merely your opinion. Nothing more.

In fact, you have no idea what God "would have" done, or might have done, since you are not God.

Your god is a different god than my G-D.

I believe we are talking about the same God. The only true God. We simply have a different understanding of His nature.

[CMike11]

Correct.

2 Persons, 1 God.

Not in my math.

[DispensationalJim]

G-D doesn't need to die for anyone's sins. He can wipe out anyone's sins for any reason at any time.

However, it's the struggle to avoid doing the bad thing that brings us closer to G-D. Otherwise we are like angels, robots.

Apparently, Mike, you have rejected the entire New Testament, and quite a few passages in the OT, IMO.

A quick word search of the word "forgiven" in the OT shows several requirements in Leviticus and Deuteronomy which from my understanding are not being met today.

So what verses are you going by now and why do you not consider the Lev. and Duet. verses as vaild or necessary for you today?

==============================

Edited to add:

I also assume that you do not accept Isaiah 53 as a prophecy of "the suffering Saviour."

[the oldtimer]

G-D doesn't need to die for anyone's sins. He can wipe out anyone's sins for any reason at any time.

However, it's the struggle to avoid doing the bad thing that brings us closer to G-D. Otherwise we are like angels, robots.For the Jews, does it not require the blood of a spotless lamb to have your sins forgiven?

[the oldtimer]

Your god is a different god than my G-D.

Of this, I am quite sure. One God has a Begotten Son, one god has a created son, one god has no son at all. Of which, do you speak?

[CMike11]

Apparently, Mike, you have rejected the entire New Testament, and quite a few passages in the OT, IMO.

Most definetly your Testament, not my Torah.

A quick word search of the word "forgiven" in the OT shows several requirements in Leviticus and Deuteronomy which from my understanding are not being met today.

So what verses are you going by now and why do you not consider the Lev. and Duet. verses as vaild or necessary for you today?


I need to know what passages you are speaking about specifically.

If you talking about making sacrifices at the temple, the issue with that is that sacrifices could only be made by jews in the temple in jerusalem. No temple, no sacrifices.

However, jews have other ways to repent for their sins, which include remorse, and resititution.

==============================

Edited to add:

I also assume that you do not accept Isaiah 53 as a prophecy of "the suffering Saviour."


What suffering saviour?

The suffering servant is talking about Israel. Israel was called the suffering servent before clearly in Isiaiah. Also, if you look at the chapter before and after it mentions Israel as the subject.

In Isaiah prophesies are not different because of a chapter. It's one long prophesy.

[CMike11]

For the Jews, does it not require the blood of a spotless lamb to have your sins forgiven?

No, why would it?

[CMike11]

Of this, I am quite sure. One God has a Begotten Son, one god has a created son, one god has no son at all. Of which, do you speak?

The G-D that took the jews out of the land of Egypt.

That G-D said that there is no other divine being but him.

The G-D that doesn't have any other divine being/individuals/beings/persons associated with him.

My G-D.

The G-D that said what he said below.

Exodus 8:10 Then he said, "Tomorrow." So he said, "May it be according to your word, that you may know that there is no one like the LORD our God.

Exodus 9:14 "For this time I will send all My plagues on you and your servants and your people, so that you may know that there is no one like Me in all the earth.

Deuteronomy 4:39 "Know therefore today, and take it to your heart, that the LORD, He is God in heaven above and on the earth below; there is no other.

Deuteronomy 32:12 "The LORD alone guided him, And there was no foreign god with him.

Deuteronomy 32:39 'See now that I, I am He, And there is no god besides Me; It is I who put to death and give life. I have wounded and it is I who heal, And there is no one who can deliver from My hand.

1 Samuel 2:2 "There is no one holy like the LORD, Indeed, there is no one besides You, Nor is there any rock like our God.

Isaiah 43:10 "You are My witnesses," declares the LORD, "And My servant whom I have chosen, So that you may know and believe Me And understand that I am He. Before Me there was no God formed, And there will be none after Me.

Isaiah 44:6 "Thus says the LORD, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, the LORD of hosts: 'I am the first and I am the last, And there is no God besides Me.

Isaiah 45:5 "I am the LORD, and there is no other; Besides Me there is no God. I will gird you, though you have not known Me;

[Tucson Jim]

The G-D that took the jews out of the land of Egypt.

That G-D said that there is no other divine being but him.

The G-D that doesn't have any other divine being/individuals/beings/persons associated with him.

My G-D.

The G-D that said what he said below.

Exodus 8:10 Then he said, "Tomorrow." So he said, "May it be according to your word, that you may know that there is no one like the LORD our God.

Exodus 9:14 "For this time I will send all My plagues on you and your servants and your people, so that you may know that there is no one like Me in all the earth.

Deuteronomy 4:39 "Know therefore today, and take it to your heart, that the LORD, He is God in heaven above and on the earth below; there is no other.

Deuteronomy 32:12 "The LORD alone guided him, And there was no foreign god with him.

Deuteronomy 32:39 'See now that I, I am He, And there is no god besides Me; It is I who put to death and give life. I have wounded and it is I who heal, And there is no one who can deliver from My hand.

1 Samuel 2:2 "There is no one holy like the LORD, Indeed, there is no one besides You, Nor is there any rock like our God.

Isaiah 43:10 "You are My witnesses," declares the LORD, "And My servant whom I have chosen, So that you may know and believe Me And understand that I am He. Before Me there was no God formed, And there will be none after Me.

Isaiah 44:6 "Thus says the LORD, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, the LORD of hosts: 'I am the first and I am the last, And there is no God besides Me.

Isaiah 45:5 "I am the LORD, and there is no other; Besides Me there is no God. I will gird you, though you have not known Me;

Amen! That's my God!

[Finality]

Amen! That's my God!
If I invented a new religion called Finalitism, and said, "that's my god, too," what would you say?

How would you determine whether the god really was the same?

Or is it based solely on my claim?

[DRS]

No, it is your opinion Jesus is not Jehovah.







Who according prophecy anoints Jesus?

Who according to prophecy raises him from the dead?

Then there is this prophecy applied to Jesus also

*7*You have loved righteousness and you hate wickedness.
That is why God, your God, has anointed you with the oil of exultation more than your partners

SO Jesus has a God and partners and his anointed with more exulatation that his partners

[the oldtimer]

The G-D that took the jews out of the land of Egypt.

That G-D said that there is no other divine being but him.

The G-D that doesn't have any other divine being/individuals/beings/persons associated with him.

My G-D.

The G-D that said what he said below.

Exodus 8:10 Then he said, "Tomorrow." So he said, "May it be according to your word, that you may know that there is no one like the LORD our God.

Exodus 9:14 "For this time I will send all My plagues on you and your servants and your people, so that you may know that there is no one like Me in all the earth.

Deuteronomy 4:39 "Know therefore today, and take it to your heart, that the LORD, He is God in heaven above and on the earth below; there is no other.

Deuteronomy 32:12 "The LORD alone guided him, And there was no foreign god with him.

Deuteronomy 32:39 'See now that I, I am He, And there is no god besides Me; It is I who put to death and give life. I have wounded and it is I who heal, And there is no one who can deliver from My hand.

1 Samuel 2:2 "There is no one holy like the LORD, Indeed, there is no one besides You, Nor is there any rock like our God.

Isaiah 43:10 "You are My witnesses," declares the LORD, "And My servant whom I have chosen, So that you may know and believe Me And understand that I am He. Before Me there was no God formed, And there will be none after Me.

Isaiah 44:6 "Thus says the LORD, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, the LORD of hosts: 'I am the first and I am the last, And there is no God besides Me.

Isaiah 45:5 "I am the LORD, and there is no other; Besides Me there is no God. I will gird you, though you have not known Me;
That would be the God with the only begotten Son, right?

[CMike11]

That would be the God with the only begotten Son, right?

Wrong.

My religion only has one divine being.

[the oldtimer]

Wrong.

My religion only has one divine being.
Really, if you have said I missed it, I thought you were Jewish.

[DispensationalJim]

Who according prophecy anoints Jesus?

Who according to prophecy raises him from the dead?

Then there is this prophecy applied to Jesus also

*7*You have loved righteousness and you hate wickedness.
That is why God, your God, has anointed you with the oil of exultation more than your partners

SO Jesus has a God and partners and his anointed with more exulatation that his partners

Here is the verse DRS meant to show us but once again forgot to add the Book and chapter:
• Heb. 1:9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.

But he skipped over this KEY VERSE:
• Heb. 1:8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

===========================

I believe the above verses from Heb. 1 are regarding the thousand year reign spoken of in The Revelation.

Thus, I would ask this "open" question...

When Jesus is finally the KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS on this earth in His millenial Kingdom, will He be God, man, or both?

I would welcome various thoughts and opinions.

[DispensationalJim]

Wrong.

My religion only has one divine being.

In my word search of my KJV OT, I do not see the word "divine" or the word "being" associated with God at all.

Do you have some particular verses from your Torah which you are thinking of in your statement above?

[DispensationalJim]

... (snip)

I need to know what passages you are speaking about specifically.

If you talking about making sacrifices at the temple, the issue with that is that sacrifices could only be made by jews in the temple in jerusalem. No temple, no sacrifices.

However, jews have other ways to repent for their sins, which include remorse, and resititution.

==============================


What suffering saviour?

The suffering servant is talking about Israel. Israel was called the suffering servent before clearly in Isiaiah. Also, if you look at the chapter before and after it mentions Israel as the subject.

In Isaiah prophesies are not different because of a chapter. It's one long prophesy.

Yes, all of the verses I alluded to were regarding the sacrifices which plainly stated that forgiveness came through those sacrificial ordinances. And I am well aware that there is no temple and thus no sacrifices today. I spent some time in Israel a few years ago.

I would still be interested in the verses which give you the confidence to say that you can gain forgiveness as a Jew without the need for a sacrifice, etc.

============================

As you probably know, there are countless books by many highly respected theologians explaining why Is. 53 is a tremendous prophecy of the "suffering Saviour" even while also being a discussion of a "suffering Israel" as well. Many accept the idea that a prophecy can be a discussion of a present situation and a future one at the same time. I'll try to find some other examples of that tomorrow.

There are also some who say that there were Jewish commentators prior to the coming of Jesus Christ who associated Is. 53 with the coming of the Messiah. I'll see if I can find some evidence for that, too.

[CMike11]

In my word search of my KJV OT, I do not see the word "divine" or the word "being" associated with God at all.

Do you have some particular verses from your Torah which you are thinking of in your statement above?

Yup,

The G-D that said what he said below.

Exodus 8:10 Then he said, "Tomorrow." So he said, "May it be according to your word, that you may know that there is no one like the LORD our God.

Exodus 9:14 "For this time I will send all My plagues on you and your servants and your people, so that you may know that there is no one like Me in all the earth.

Deuteronomy 4:39 "Know therefore today, and take it to your heart, that the LORD, He is God in heaven above and on the earth below; there is no other.

Deuteronomy 32:12 "The LORD alone guided him, And there was no foreign god with him.

Deuteronomy 32:39 'See now that I, I am He, And there is no god besides Me; It is I who put to death and give life. I have wounded and it is I who heal, And there is no one who can deliver from My hand.

1 Samuel 2:2 "There is no one holy like the LORD, Indeed, there is no one besides You, Nor is there any rock like our God.

Isaiah 43:10 "You are My witnesses," declares the LORD, "And My servant whom I have chosen, So that you may know and believe Me And understand that I am He. Before Me there was no God formed, And there will be none after Me.

Isaiah 44:6 "Thus says the LORD, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, the LORD of hosts: 'I am the first and I am the last, And there is no God besides Me.

Isaiah 45:5 "I am the LORD, and there is no other; Besides Me there is no God. I will gird you, though you have not known Me;

[DispensationalJim]

Yup,

The G-D that said what he said below.

Exodus 8:10 Then he said, "Tomorrow." So he said, "May it be according to your word, that you may know that there is no one like the LORD our God.

Exodus 9:14 "For this time I will send all My plagues on you and your servants and your people, so that you may know that there is no one like Me in all the earth.

Deuteronomy 4:39 "Know therefore today, and take it to your heart, that the LORD, He is God in heaven above and on the earth below; there is no other.

Deuteronomy 32:12 "The LORD alone guided him, And there was no foreign god with him.

Deuteronomy 32:39 'See now that I, I am He, And there is no god besides Me; It is I who put to death and give life. I have wounded and it is I who heal, And there is no one who can deliver from My hand.

1 Samuel 2:2 "There is no one holy like the LORD, Indeed, there is no one besides You, Nor is there any rock like our God.

Isaiah 43:10 "You are My witnesses," declares the LORD, "And My servant whom I have chosen, So that you may know and believe Me And understand that I am He. Before Me there was no God formed, And there will be none after Me.

Isaiah 44:6 "Thus says the LORD, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, the LORD of hosts: 'I am the first and I am the last, And there is no God besides Me.

Isaiah 45:5 "I am the LORD, and there is no other; Besides Me there is no God. I will gird you, though you have not known Me;

Those are great verses, and, as T-Jim and others have said, we definitely agree that there is only one God, but of course we see that one God as a "trinity" because of the many New Testament verses (and even quite a few OT verses) which some on this thread reject in one way or another.

=====================

However, Mike, what I was particularly wondering about was what verses you use to support this statement of yours:

However, jews have other ways to repent for their sins, which include remorse, and resititution.

Since I was referring to two dozen or more verses from Leviticus and Deuteronomy that indicate that sins were forgiven through the sacrifices, what specific verses indicate to you that those sacrifices are not necessary today?

As a dispensationalist myself, I wonder, did Israel receive a special "dispensation" since the temple was destroyed?

[the oldtimer]

Morning DJ,

Some years back now, I was involved in street ministry. One night, as I was talking to a Jewish man, I got to see Gods light come on in the mans eyes. We were playing question and answer using Pro. 30:4.
I Asked,"Who has gone up to heaven and come down"? His reply, "God".
"Who has gathered up the wind in the hollow of his hands"? "God".
"Who has wrapped up the waters in his cloak"? "God"
"Who has established all the ends of the earth"? "God"
"What is his name"? "God"
"and the name of his Son, tell me if you know"?
For a second there was silence, then I saw his eyes change from dead, to life. I will never forget that night.
For some reason, I just felt I had to share that with you. What did I do, nothing. It was Gods word.

[Finality]

The person's son is not capitalized in the Hebrew or Catholic bibles. That's an inaccurate translation you've got yourself there.

The answer is probably Moses.

The answer being god & then Jesus falls apart in the very first question. Jesus did not go up and come down.

[CMike11]

You didn't refer to passages. You just mentioned books.

Why do I have to do all the research?


Joel 2

13. And rend your hearts and not your garments, and return to the Lord your God, for He is gracious and merciful, slow to anger, and of great kindness, and He repents of the evil. יג.

14. Whoever knows shall repent and regret, and it shall leave after it a blessing, a meal offering and a libation to the Lord your God.



Jonah 3

9. Whoever knows shall repent, and God will relent, and He will return from His burning wrath, and we will not perish. ט.

10. And God saw their deeds, that they had repented of their evil way, and the Lord relented concerning the evil that He had spoken to do to them, and He did not do it.

[CMike11]

Here are more.


http://www.answers.com/topic/repentance

Isaiah (44:22): "Return unto Me; for I have redeemed you,"

14:2 has: "Take with you words, and return to the Lord: say unto him, 'Take away all iniquity, and receive us graciously,'" and

Malachi 3:7: "'Return unto me, and I will return unto you,' says the Lord of hosts."

Even stronger is the statement by Ezekiel (33:11), "Say unto them, 'As I live,' says the Lord God, 'I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live.'"

[CMike11]

Really, if you have said I missed it, I thought you were Jewish.

I don't get it.

[DispensationalJim]

You didn't refer to passages. You just mentioned books.

Why do I have to do all the research?

Joel 2
13. And rend your hearts and not your garments, and return to the Lord your God, for He is gracious and merciful, slow to anger, and of great kindness, and He repents of the evil. יג.

14. Whoever knows shall repent and regret, and it shall leave after it a blessing, a meal offering and a libation to the Lord your God.

Jonah 3
9. Whoever knows shall repent, and God will relent, and He will return from His burning wrath, and we will not perish. ט.

10. And God saw their deeds, that they had repented of their evil way, and the Lord relented concerning the evil that He had spoken to do to them, and He did not do it.

Sorry, Mike, but I just assumed that you would know which ones I was thinking of since I did acknowledge that they were referring to the priestly sacrifices. So, as per your request, here are some of them:

* Lev. 4:20 And he shall do with the bullock as he did with the bullock for a sin offering, so shall he do with this: and the priest shall make an atonement for them, and it shall be forgiven them. ... 26 And he shall burn all his fat upon the altar, as the fat of the sacrifice of peace offerings: and the priest shall make an atonement for him as concerning his sin, and it shall be forgiven him. ... 31 And he shall take away all the fat thereof, as the fat is taken away from off the sacrifice of peace offerings; and the priest shall burn IT UPON THE ALTAR FOR A SWEET SAVOUR UNTO THE LORD; and the priest shall make an atonement for him, and it shall be forgiven him. ... 35 And he shall take away all the fat thereof, as the fat of the lamb is taken away from the sacrifice of the peace offerings; and the priest shall burn them upon the altar, according to the offerings made by fire unto the LORD: and the priest shall make an atonement for his sin that he hath committed, and it shall be forgiven him.
* Lev. 5:10 And he shall offer the second for a burnt offering, according to the manner: and the priest shall make an atonement for him for his sin which he hath sinned, and it shall be forgiven him. ...13 And the priest shall make an atonement for him as touching his sin that he hath sinned in one of these, and it shall be forgiven him: and the remnant shall be the priest’s, as a meat offering. ... 16 And he shall make amends for the harm that he hath done in the holy thing, and shall add the fifth part thereto, and give it unto the priest: and the priest shall make an atonement for him with the ram of the trespass offering, and it shall be forgiven him. ... 18 And he shall bring a ram without blemish out of the flock, with thy estimation, for a trespass offering, unto the priest: and the priest shall make an atonement for him concerning his ignorance wherein he erred and wist it not, and it shall be forgiven him.
* Lev. 6:7 And the priest shall make an atonement for him before the LORD: and it shall be forgiven him for any thing of all that he hath done in trespassing therein.
* Lev. 19:22 And the priest shall make an atonement for him with the ram of the trespass offering before the LORD for his sin which he hath done: and the sin which he hath done shall be forgiven him.
* Num. 15:25 And the priest shall make an atonement for all the congregation of the children of Israel, and it shall be forgiven them; for it is ignorance: and they shall bring their offering, a sacrifice made by fire unto the LORD, and their sin offering before the LORD, for their ignorance:

============================

So, why was a sacrifice needed in those cases to attain forgiveness, but not in the verses you quoted above? Was there a "change" in God's "program"?

Also, why is the word "forgiven" or the word "sin" not used in your verses above?

==========================

IMO, Mike, your quote of Joel 2 goes on to show that Joel is prophecying of a future time, which I think is yet to come.

Notice what Joel writes a few verses later following your quoted passage:
* Joel 2:30 And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke. 31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come. 32 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered:

You may be aware, Mike, that those verses are quoted again in the NT and are still IMO prophecy that is yet to come. :)

======================

And, Mike, as I read about Jonah, it seems to me that God was probably about to "wipe out" Ninevah as He did Sodom and Gomorrah, so He sent Jonah to preach to them to give them another chance. The verses you quoted above demonstrate that they as a group accepted the warning and repented so God would not wipe them out. But I do not see any individual forgiveness there.

And as you might guess, that is my main concern for everyone. I believe we must all make sure our sins are ALL forgiven.

Naturally, I believe Jesus Christ paid for the sins of the whole world on the cross, the ultimate and final sacrifice or atonement for sin, and thus when anyone believes in that atonement or payment, their sins are ALL forgiven.

[the oldtimer]

The person's son is not capitalized in the Hebrew or Catholic bibles. That's an inaccurate translation you've got yourself there. No, that was my mistake.

The answer is probably Moses. MNS.

The answer being god & then Jesus falls apart in the very first question. Jesus did not go up and come down.
You will note that the son does not enter the discussion until after the questions. The point is God, has a "son" in the OT.

[DRS]

Here is the verse DRS meant to show us but once again forgot to add the Book and chapter:
• Heb. 1:9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.

But he skipped over this KEY VERSE:
• Heb. 1:8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

===========================

I believe the above verses from Heb. 1 are regarding the thousand year reign spoken of in The Revelation.

Thus, I would ask this "open" question...

When Jesus is finally the KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS on this earth in His millenial Kingdom, will He be God, man, or both?

I would welcome various thoughts and opinions.


The verse I posted was the prophecy in Psalm that Paul quotes in Hebrew, so I did not skip over anything in fact I will show that verse also from Psalms that you have

6*God is your throne to time indefinite, even forever;
The scepter of your kingship is a scepter of uprightness.
*7*You have loved righteousness and you hate wickedness.
That is why God, your God, has anointed you with the oil of exultation more than your partners

[DispensationalJim]

Here are more.


http://www.answers.com/topic/repentance

Isaiah (44:22): "Return unto Me; for I have redeemed you,"

14:2 has: "Take with you words, and return to the Lord: say unto him, 'Take away all iniquity, and receive us graciously,'" and

Malachi 3:7: "'Return unto me, and I will return unto you,' says the Lord of hosts."

Even stronger is the statement by Ezekiel (33:11), "Say unto them, 'As I live,' says the Lord God, 'I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live.'"

Thanks, Mike, for that web site. I read the section on forgiveness, but found no specific way to gain permanent and total forgivenss, which I fervently believe can be found only through faith in Jesus Christ.

The verses you gave above also are not IMO specific enough to allow anyone to enjoy the individual forgiveness that I believe is possible or available through faith in Christ.

Here are a few of my favorite verses in that regard:
• Eph. 1:7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace; ... 12 ... who first trusted in Christ. 13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
• Eph. 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
• Eph. 4:32 And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ’s sake hath forgiven you.
• Col. 1:14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
• Col. 2:13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

[DispensationalJim]

Morning DJ,

Some years back now, I was involved in street ministry. One night, as I was talking to a Jewish man, I got to see Gods light come on in the mans eyes. We were playing question and answer using Pro. 30:4.
I Asked,"Who has gone up to heaven and come down"? His reply, "God".
"Who has gathered up the wind in the hollow of his hands"? "God".
"Who has wrapped up the waters in his cloak"? "God"
"Who has established all the ends of the earth"? "God"
"What is his name"? "God"
"and the name of his Son, tell me if you know"?
For a second there was silence, then I saw his eyes change from dead, to life. I will never forget that night.
For some reason, I just felt I had to share that with you. What did I do, nothing. It was Gods word.

Thanks, ot. That's a great story. I'll have to commit that passage to memory for future "opportunities."

[DispensationalJim]

Who according prophecy anoints Jesus?

Who according to prophecy raises him from the dead?

Then there is this prophecy applied to Jesus also

*7*You have loved righteousness and you hate wickedness.
That is why God, your God, has anointed you with the oil of exultation more than your partners

SO Jesus has a God and partners and his anointed with more exulatation that his partners

Here is your post again, DRS. I was pointing out the verse you did not include on this post and also trying to remind you that you NEED TO INCLUDE THE BOOK AND CHAPTER each time to show a little consideration to the rest of us, please. Thank you.

[CMike11]

============================

So, why was a sacrifice needed in those cases to attain forgiveness, but not in the verses you quoted above? Was there a "change" in God's "program"?

Also, why is the word "forgiven" or the word "sin" not used in your verses above?

==========================

IMO, Mike, your quote of Joel 2 goes on to show that Joel is prophecying of a future time, which I think is yet to come.

Notice what Joel writes a few verses later following your quoted passage:
* Joel 2:30 And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke. 31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come. 32 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered:

You may be aware, Mike, that those verses are quoted again in the NT and are still IMO prophecy that is yet to come. :)

======================

And, Mike, as I read about Jonah, it seems to me that God was probably about to "wipe out" Ninevah as He did Sodom and Gomorrah, so He sent Jonah to preach to them to give them another chance. The verses you quoted above demonstrate that they as a group accepted the warning and repented so God would not wipe them out. But I do not see any individual forgiveness there.

And as you might guess, that is my main concern for everyone. I believe we must all make sure our sins are ALL forgiven.

Naturally, I believe Jesus Christ paid for the sins of the whole world on the cross, the ultimate and final sacrifice or atonement for sin, and thus when anyone believes in that atonement or payment, their sins are ALL forgiven.

It doesn't matter. That's how jews learn what to do.

G-D is telling the jews what they need to do to be forgiven for sins. That is to repent for their sins.

[DRS]

Here is your post again, DRS. I was pointing out the verse you did not include on this post and also trying to remind you that you NEED TO INCLUDE THE BOOK AND CHAPTER each time to show a little consideration to the rest of us, please. Thank you.

I was asking who anoints messiah

Psalm 45 is quoted by Paul in Hebrews

See this is why I find it so funny when people act like the NT is totally new when in fact it quotes a lot from the OT

So the Most High God alone is the same from Genesis to Revelation and it is not Jesus

[CMike11]

Thanks, Mike, for that web site. I read the section on forgiveness, but found no specific way to gain permanent and total forgivenss, which I fervently believe can be found only through faith in Jesus Christ.

The verses you gave above also are not IMO specific enough to allow anyone to enjoy the individual forgiveness that I believe is possible or available through faith in Christ.

If you want guarantees buy a toaster.

It's up to G-D to decide what to do.

Here is how jews do it.

http://www.myjewishlearning.com/holidays/Yom_Kippur/Overview_Yom_Kippur_Theology/Repentance/SpiralingToRepentance.htm

Spiraling Towards Repentance
There are five factors in teshuvah (repentance), each of which can be a starting point for the entire process.
By Rabbi David J. Blumenthal
This piece is excerpted from "Repentance and Forgiveness," which appears in the journal Crosscurrents, and is reprinted with permission of the editors



Teshuvah [return] is the key concept in the rabbinic view of sin, repentance, and forgiveness. The tradition is not of one mind on the steps one must take to repent of one's sins. However, almost all agree that repentance requires five elements: recognition of one's sins as sins (hakarát ha-chét'), remorse (charatá), desisting from sin (azivát ha-chét'), restitution where possible (peira'ón), and confession (vidui).


"Recognition of one's sins as sins" is an act of one's intelligence and moral conscience. It involves knowing that certain actions are sinful, recognizing such actions in oneself as more than just lapses of praxis, and analyzing one's motives for sin as deeply as one can. For example, stealing from someone must be seen not only as a crime but also as a sin against another human and a violation of God's demands of us within the covenant. It also involves realizing that such acts are part of deeper patterns of relatedness and that they are motivated by some of the most profound and darkest elements in our being.



"Remorse" is a feeling. It is composed of feelings of regret, of failure to maintain one's moral standards. It may also encompass feelings of being lost or trapped, of anguish, and perhaps of despair at our own sinfulness, as well as a feeling of being alienated from God and from our own deepest spiritual roots, of having abandoned our own inner selves.



"Desisting from sin" is neither a moral-intellectual analysis nor a feeling; it is an action. It is a ceasing from sin, a desisting from the patterns of sinful action to which we have become addicted. Desisting from sin involves actually stopping the sinful action, consciously repressing thoughts and fantasies about the sinful activity, and making a firm commitment never to commit the sinful act again.



"Restitution" is the act of making good, as best one can, for any damage done. If one has stolen, one must return the object or pay compensation. If one has damaged another's reputation, one must attempt to correct the injury to the offended party.



"Confession" has two forms: ritual and personal. Ritual confession requires recitation of the liturgies of confession at their proper moments in the prayer life of the community. Personal confession requires individual confession before God as needed or inserting one's personal confession into the liturgy at designated moments. The more specific the personal confession, the better. One who follows these steps to teshuvah is called a "penitent" (chozér be-teshuvah).



The tradition is quite clear, however, that recognition of sin, remorse, restitution, and confession, if they are done without desisting from sin, do not constitute teshuvah. Without ceasing one's sinful activity, one has only arrived at the "preliminaries to teshuvah" (hirhuréi teshuvah). Actual desisting from sin is what counts.



Thus, if one desists from sinful action because one has been frightened into it, that is still teshuvah and the person is considered a penitent. For example, if a person ceases to gamble compulsively because someone threatens to beat him severely the next time he does it, such a person is considered a penitent. Or, if a person ceases to steal because he has been told he will be sent to jail the next time it happens, such a person is considered a penitent. Furthermore, if a person becomes convinced that he or she will be punished in the life-after-death and ceases sinful action on that account, this person too is considered a penitent, though this motivation for desisting is higher than the previous ones because it is a function of a larger religious worldview which considers the wrongdoing as actual sin.



Teshuvah which is rooted in fear of humans or God is called "repentance rooted in fear" (teshuvah mi-yir'á) and, while not the highest form of teshuvah, it is the core thereof. Reform of one's character through analysis of sin, remorse, restitution, and confession, when combined with the ceasing of sinful action, is called "repentance rooted in love" (teshuvah mei-ahavá). "Repentance rooted in love" is desirable but, without cessation of sin, reform of one's character is useless. Maimonides, the foremost halakhic (legal) and philosophic authority of rabbinic Judaism, lists desisting from sin as the very first step to teshuvah.



Rabbinic tradition teaches that all the steps to teshuvah are necessary. Their interrelationship is best described as a spiral which touches each of the five points, yet advances with each turn. Thus, one may begin at any point--with action, analysis, remorse, restitution, or confession. However, as one repeats the steps of teshuvah again and again, one's analysis and remorse deepen, one's restitution and commitment-to-desist become firmer, and one's confession becomes more profound. As one cycles through the five phases of teshuvah again and again, one's teshuvah becomes more earnest, more serious. At its height, one achieves "full teshuvah" (teshuvah gemurá), which would require full consciousness and action such that, given the same situation, one would refrain from the sin for which one had repented.



Sinfulness is a very deep dimension of human existence and dealing with it calls upon all our spiritual, intellectual, emotional, and moral resources--even when we recognize that ceasing to sin is the base line of repentance.



Rabbi David R. Blumenthal is Jay and Leslie Cohen Professor of Judaic Studies at

Emory University, Atlanta. His books include Facing the Abusing God: A Theology of

[CMike11]

I was asking who anoints messiah

Psalm 45 is quoted by Paul in Hebrews

See this is why I find it so funny when people act like the NT is totally new when in fact it quotes a lot from the OT

So the Most High God alone is the same from Genesis to Revelation and it is not Jesus

I'll do it?

[CMike11]

Judaism doesn't focus so much on sin.

The point is to get closer to G-D more than it is to avoid sin.

[DRS]

Judaism doesn't focus so much on sin.

The point is to get closer to G-D more than it is to avoid sin.

James 4:8*Draw close to God, and he will draw close to YOU

[the oldtimer]

If you want guarantees buy a toaster.

It's up to G-D to decide what to do.

Here is how jews do it.

http://www.myjewishlearning.com/holidays/Yom_Kippur/Overview_Yom_Kippur_Theology/Repentance/SpiralingToRepentance.htm

Spiraling Towards Repentance
There are five factors in teshuvah (repentance), each of which can be a starting point for the entire process.
By Rabbi David J. Blumenthal
This piece is excerpted from "Repentance and Forgiveness," which appears in the journal Crosscurrents, and is reprinted with permission of the editors



Teshuvah [return] is the key concept in the rabbinic view of sin, repentance, and forgiveness. The tradition is not of one mind on the steps one must take to repent of one's sins. However, almost all agree that repentance requires five elements: recognition of one's sins as sins (hakarát ha-chét'), remorse (charatá), desisting from sin (azivát ha-chét'), restitution where possible (peira'ón), and confession (vidui).


"Recognition of one's sins as sins" is an act of one's intelligence and moral conscience. It involves knowing that certain actions are sinful, recognizing such actions in oneself as more than just lapses of praxis, and analyzing one's motives for sin as deeply as one can. For example, stealing from someone must be seen not only as a crime but also as a sin against another human and a violation of God's demands of us within the covenant. It also involves realizing that such acts are part of deeper patterns of relatedness and that they are motivated by some of the most profound and darkest elements in our being.



"Remorse" is a feeling. It is composed of feelings of regret, of failure to maintain one's moral standards. It may also encompass feelings of being lost or trapped, of anguish, and perhaps of despair at our own sinfulness, as well as a feeling of being alienated from God and from our own deepest spiritual roots, of having abandoned our own inner selves.



"Desisting from sin" is neither a moral-intellectual analysis nor a feeling; it is an action. It is a ceasing from sin, a desisting from the patterns of sinful action to which we have become addicted. Desisting from sin involves actually stopping the sinful action, consciously repressing thoughts and fantasies about the sinful activity, and making a firm commitment never to commit the sinful act again.



"Restitution" is the act of making good, as best one can, for any damage done. If one has stolen, one must return the object or pay compensation. If one has damaged another's reputation, one must attempt to correct the injury to the offended party.



"Confession" has two forms: ritual and personal. Ritual confession requires recitation of the liturgies of confession at their proper moments in the prayer life of the community. Personal confession requires individual confession before God as needed or inserting one's personal confession into the liturgy at designated moments. The more specific the personal confession, the better. One who follows these steps to teshuvah is called a "penitent" (chozér be-teshuvah).



The tradition is quite clear, however, that recognition of sin, remorse, restitution, and confession, if they are done without desisting from sin, do not constitute teshuvah. Without ceasing one's sinful activity, one has only arrived at the "preliminaries to teshuvah" (hirhuréi teshuvah). Actual desisting from sin is what counts.



Thus, if one desists from sinful action because one has been frightened into it, that is still teshuvah and the person is considered a penitent. For example, if a person ceases to gamble compulsively because someone threatens to beat him severely the next time he does it, such a person is considered a penitent. Or, if a person ceases to steal because he has been told he will be sent to jail the next time it happens, such a person is considered a penitent. Furthermore, if a person becomes convinced that he or she will be punished in the life-after-death and ceases sinful action on that account, this person too is considered a penitent, though this motivation for desisting is higher than the previous ones because it is a function of a larger religious worldview which considers the wrongdoing as actual sin.



Teshuvah which is rooted in fear of humans or God is called "repentance rooted in fear" (teshuvah mi-yir'á) and, while not the highest form of teshuvah, it is the core thereof. Reform of one's character through analysis of sin, remorse, restitution, and confession, when combined with the ceasing of sinful action, is called "repentance rooted in love" (teshuvah mei-ahavá). "Repentance rooted in love" is desirable but, without cessation of sin, reform of one's character is useless. Maimonides, the foremost halakhic (legal) and philosophic authority of rabbinic Judaism, lists desisting from sin as the very first step to teshuvah.



Rabbinic tradition teaches that all the steps to teshuvah are necessary. Their interrelationship is best described as a spiral which touches each of the five points, yet advances with each turn. Thus, one may begin at any point--with action, analysis, remorse, restitution, or confession. However, as one repeats the steps of teshuvah again and again, one's analysis and remorse deepen, one's restitution and commitment-to-desist become firmer, and one's confession becomes more profound. As one cycles through the five phases of teshuvah again and again, one's teshuvah becomes more earnest, more serious. At its height, one achieves "full teshuvah" (teshuvah gemurá), which would require full consciousness and action such that, given the same situation, one would refrain from the sin for which one had repented.



Sinfulness is a very deep dimension of human existence and dealing with it calls upon all our spiritual, intellectual, emotional, and moral resources--even when we recognize that ceasing to sin is the base line of repentance.



Rabbi David R. Blumenthal is Jay and Leslie Cohen Professor of Judaic Studies at

Emory University, Atlanta. His books include Facing the Abusing God: A Theology of
That is wonderful, but, what do you do with the recurrent ongoing sin in your life??

[DispensationalJim]

It doesn't matter. That's how jews learn what to do.

G-D is telling the jews what they need to do to be forgiven for sins. That is to repent for their sins.

I think I'm seeing what you are saying. I read the long quote from Rabbi David R. Blumenthal and I thank you very much for that post. That certainly gives the type of explanation I was seeking from you.

I feel I must respond to your "If you want a guarantee, buy a toaster" comment...
I have a toaster already and I also believe I have a no-strings-attached guarantee from Jesus Christ Himself -- thank you very much -- through His special apostle, Paul, as I shared earlier. :)

[DispensationalJim]

Judaism doesn't focus so much on sin.

The point is to get closer to G-D more than it is to avoid sin.

Is there a passage of Scripture that indicates to you how many "unpardoned" sins it would take to miss the "after life"?

I assume that the Ten Commandments are a key to knowing what is and is not sin, but as I recall, we have been told by other Jews on here that Orthodox Jews actually are under 613 Commandments. True or not?

[CMike11]

Is there a passage of Scripture that indicates to you how many "unpardoned" sins it would take to miss the "after life"?

I assume that the Ten Commandments are a key to knowing what is and is not sin, but as I recall, we have been told by other Jews on here that Orthodox Jews actually are under 613 Commandments. True or not?

As are as your first question. No. That's why G-D gets the big bucks, metaphorically, so to speak.

[CMike11]

On the Day Of Attonement (Yom Kippur) there is a heavenly court.

There is an angel that acts as a defense attorney, satan acts as the prosecuting attorney, and G-D is the judge.

Then we are weighed and G-D makes the decision.

As far as the toaster analogy and guarantees. We (us jews) can't guarantee the outcome that G-D makes.

There is a sliding scale. The more knowledgeable you are about what you are supposed to do the tougher you are graded.

[Tucson Jim]

If I invented a new religion called Finalitism, and said, "that's my god, too," what would you say?

I'd say get a better name for your religion! :))

But hey, if you believe in the God of the Bible, that's a good start!

How would you determine whether the god really was the same?

From Scripture. I would compare the God you believe in to the God of the Bible.

Or is it based solely on my claim?

Not solely on your claim. Your God has to be consistent with the God of scripture.

[Tucson Jim]

Who according prophecy anoints Jesus?

Who according to prophecy raises him from the dead?

Then there is this prophecy applied to Jesus also

*7*You have loved righteousness and you hate wickedness.
That is why God, your God, has anointed you with the oil of exultation more than your partners

SO Jesus has a God and partners and his anointed with more exulatation that his partners

All perfectly consistent with the Triune God!

[Tucson Jim]

Thanks, Mike, for that web site. I read the section on forgiveness, but found no specific way to gain permanent and total forgivenss, which I fervently believe can be found only through faith in Jesus Christ.

The verses you gave above also are not IMO specific enough to allow anyone to enjoy the individual forgiveness that I believe is possible or available through faith in Christ.

Here are a few of my favorite verses in that regard:
• Eph. 1:7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace; ... 12 ... who first trusted in Christ. 13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
• Eph. 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
• Eph. 4:32 And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ’s sake hath forgiven you.
• Col. 1:14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
• Col. 2:13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

Beautiful verses! Thanks for posting them D-Jim!

[Tucson Jim]

I was asking who anoints messiah

Psalm 45 is quoted by Paul in Hebrews

See this is why I find it so funny when people act like the NT is totally new when in fact it quotes a lot from the OT

So the Most High God alone is the same from Genesis to Revelation and it is not Jesus

It is not . . . but at the same time, it is . . . :think:

[Tucson Jim]

Judaism doesn't focus so much on sin.

The point is to get closer to G-D more than it is to avoid sin.

I was just wondering what constitutes "sin" in Judaism. We all know the 10 commandments, but what else? How specific is the concept (ie. is there a "list")? Is there a concept of a sin nature?

[CMike11]

I was just wondering what constitutes "sin" in Judaism. We all know the 10 commandments, but what else? How specific is the concept (ie. is there a "list")? Is there a concept of a sin nature?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/613_Mitzvot
(Scroll down)

Wear yourself out.

[Warrior4God]

Things look like they are going good in the forum.

Was kinda out of the loop since Sunday night.


Had a pretty severe heart attack and was in the hospital since then.

They did 2 cath.'s and put a stint in and were talking about open heart but decided to do another stint or 2 in about 4 to 6 weeks.

Please pray for this ...............scared me to death.

Whew!!!!!!

Pray for this please.

Mr. Invicible does not feel invicible anymore.

Wanted to ask the whole forum in a thread but I don't think too many like me and don't know them as well as you guys...........I love you guys.

[DispensationalJim]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/613_Mitzvot
(Scroll down)

Wear yourself out.

Wow! Thanks, Mike, for that web site, which does confirm and LIST the 613 Commandments. Just Wow!

I am truly in awe -- or maybe it's shock! -- I'm not sure... :)

I have to admire anyone who can live up to that list! If you think just reading them can wear one out -- as you said above -- how about trying to keep them? Whew!!

I'll confess that the list gives me 613 more reasons to be thankful that I believe I am living in THE AGE OF GRACE! :)

[DispensationalJim]

Things look like they are going good in the forum.

Was kinda out of the loop since Sunday night.


Had a pretty severe heart attack and was in the hospital since then.

They did 2 cath.'s and put a stint in and were talking about open heart but decided to do another stint or 2 in about 4 to 6 weeks.

Please pray for this ...............scared me to death.

Whew!!!!!!

Pray for this please.

Mr. Invicible does not feel invicible anymore.

Wanted to ask the whole forum in a thread but I don't think too many like me and don't know them as well as you guys...........I love you guys.

Thank you so much, dear Warrior, for sharing that scary experience.

I will pass the word to some of our church "prayer warriors" and we'll be talking to the Lord in your behalf.

Just by way of encouragement, Warrior, we have a number of folks at our church and in the family who have had at least two or three stints in the last few years and are still quite active.

Carol's Mother (my dear Mother-in-law, who has been like a Mother to me) still pretty much keeps up her normal routine at 80 and looks great. She's had her two stints for some 5-6 years now and still works in the yard with Dad, etc..

So don't let it get you down!! We want you to stick around and continue to challenge us once in a while. :)

[lwdc]

Warrior4God I'm praying that the Lord heal you and keep you.

[Tucson Jim]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/613_Mitzvot
(Scroll down)

Wear yourself out.

Wow - I did! So, obviously, no one can keep all these commandments.

[Tucson Jim]

Things look like they are going good in the forum.

Was kinda out of the loop since Sunday night.


Had a pretty severe heart attack and was in the hospital since then.

They did 2 cath.'s and put a stint in and were talking about open heart but decided to do another stint or 2 in about 4 to 6 weeks.

Please pray for this ...............scared me to death.

Whew!!!!!!

Pray for this please.

Mr. Invicible does not feel invicible anymore.

Wanted to ask the whole forum in a thread but I don't think too many like me and don't know them as well as you guys...........I love you guys.

Warrior - I am having everyone I know pray about this. I think most people on the forum, myself included LOVE you and don't want to see anything bad happen to you.

We will be praying with all our hearts for you Brother.

Be strong! Do what the Docs tell you!

And for heavens sake, don't get in any arguments about the trinity!:))

[Tucson Jim]

Thank you so much, dear Warrior, for sharing that scary experience.

I will pass the word to some of our church "prayer warriors" and we'll be talking to the Lord in your behalf.

Just by way of encouragement, Warrior, we have a number of folks at our church and in the family who have had at least two or three stints in the last few years and are still quite active.

Carol's Mother (my dear Mother-in-law, who has been like a Mother to me) still pretty much keeps up her normal routine at 80 and looks great. She's had her two stints for some 5-6 years now and still works in the yard with Dad, etc..

So don't let it get you down!! We want you to stick around and continue to challenge us once in a while. :)

Just to add to that, My former employer, a doctor, had a stint 12 years ago and is still doing great (on a strict diet and exercise regimen though).

So hang in there Warrior.

Now is the time to fight for YOU!!

[Tucson Jim]

I started a prayer thread for you in the "Overcoming obstacles" forum.

Those are a bunch of prayer Warriors (no pun intended - well. OK, maybe a little pun . . .;).

Take heart my friend. many believers are praying for you!

Please give us updates as you are able.

[terri910]

Things look like they are going good in the forum.

Was kinda out of the loop since Sunday night.


Had a pretty severe heart attack and was in the hospital since then.

They did 2 cath.'s and put a stint in and were talking about open heart but decided to do another stint or 2 in about 4 to 6 weeks.

Please pray for this ...............scared me to death.

Whew!!!!!!

Pray for this please.

Mr. Invicible does not feel invicible anymore.

Wanted to ask the whole forum in a thread but I don't think too many like me and don't know them as well as you guys...........I love you guys.
You have my prayers, Warrior.

It has been over 6 years since my husband had his heart attack, and had a stint put it. Listen to your doctors and trust in the Lord!

[the oldtimer]

Things look like they are going good in the forum.

Was kinda out of the loop since Sunday night.


Had a pretty severe heart attack and was in the hospital since then.

They did 2 cath.'s and put a stint in and were talking about open heart but decided to do another stint or 2 in about 4 to 6 weeks.

Please pray for this ...............scared me to death.

Whew!!!!!!

Pray for this please.

Mr. Invicible does not feel invicible anymore.

Wanted to ask the whole forum in a thread but I don't think too many like me and don't know them as well as you guys...........I love you guys.
Hey Warrior,
Sorry, to hear about your heart, but rest assured the stent will do its job. I have had, one for 8 years now,and it works fine. They really are amazing, they are like a backward finger trap that we played with as kids. Only they lock open, instead of closed. My church will be praying for you as well. God bless you!

[Warrior4God]

I am in tears of thankfulness for all of your prayers and support.

Thankyou very much to all of you.

[CMike11]

Things look like they are going good in the forum.

Was kinda out of the loop since Sunday night.


Had a pretty severe heart attack and was in the hospital since then.

They did 2 cath.'s and put a stint in and were talking about open heart but decided to do another stint or 2 in about 4 to 6 weeks.

Please pray for this ...............scared me to death.

Whew!!!!!!

Pray for this please.

Mr. Invicible does not feel invicible anymore.

Wanted to ask the whole forum in a thread but I don't think too many like me and don't know them as well as you guys...........I love you guys.


Wow.

I wish you a speedy recovery Warrior.

How are you feeling today?

[CMike11]

Wow - I did! So, obviously, no one can keep all these commandments.

G-D knows we are not perfect.

The idea is the struggle to keep them is what gets us closer to G-D.

By struggle I mean fighting the evil inclination and doing what's right.

[CMike11]

Wow! Thanks, Mike, for that web site, which does confirm and LIST the 613 Commandments. Just Wow!

I am truly in awe -- or maybe it's shock! -- I'm not sure... :)

I have to admire anyone who can live up to that list! If you think just reading them can wear one out -- as you said above -- how about trying to keep them? Whew!!

I'll confess that the list gives me 613 more reasons to be thankful that I believe I am living in THE AGE OF GRACE! :)

We are not shopping around for a car, we are doing what G-D told us to do in order to get closer to him.

[Finality]

We are not shopping around for a car, we are doing what G-D told us to do in order to get closer to him.
It does give one insight into perhaps why Christianity tends to be popular, doesn't it?

I won't say that Christianity is dumbed-down at all, because I find Christianity, especially Catholicism which is what I know best, to be highly intellectual. But Christianity certain seems a lot easier than Judaism.

[DispensationalJim]

We are not shopping around for a car, we are doing what G-D told us to do in order to get closer to him.

I'm so thankful that my apostle Paul told me that I am no longer under the law, but under GRACE! (Rom. 6)

That gives me "Blessed Assurance" that I already have everlasting life because of my faith in the work Jesus Christ did on the cross.

And that gives me the greatest motivation possible to spend every waking moment trying to spread the good news to anyone who will listen that CHRIST DIED FOR OUR SINS.

[Koushi Shinigami]

Meh.

[DRS]

It does give one insight into perhaps why Christianity tends to be popular, doesn't it?

I won't say that Christianity is dumbed-down at all, because I find Christianity, especially Catholicism which is what I know best, to be highly intellectual. But Christianity certain seems a lot easier than Judaism.

How is it easier?

[DispensationalJim]

Meh.

Please forgive me, Koushi, but I have no idea what "Meh" means. :confused:

Could you kindly enlighten this old man? :)

[Finality]

How is it easier?
Christians are freed from following the Jewish laws. How can that not be easier? :mrgreen:

[CMike11]

I'm so thankful that my apostle Paul told me that I am no longer under the law, but under GRACE! (Rom. 6)

That gives me "Blessed Assurance" that I already have everlasting life because of my faith in the work Jesus Christ did on the cross.

And that gives me the greatest motivation possible to spend every waking moment trying to spread the good news to anyone who will listen that CHRIST DIED FOR OUR SINS.

As jews are mission is to do what is right, not what is necessarily easier.

[CMike11]

It does give one insight into perhaps why Christianity tends to be popular, doesn't it?

I won't say that Christianity is dumbed-down at all, because I find Christianity, especially Catholicism which is what I know best, to be highly intellectual. But Christianity certain seems a lot easier than Judaism.

I agree.

Even Hitler the worst mass murderer within recent history, if he "saw the light" and "found jesus" right before he died, according to christianity he is going to heaven.

It's different in judaism.

[Finality]

I agree.

Even Hitler the worst mass murderer within recent history, if he "saw the light" and "found jesus" right before he died, according to christianity he is going to heaven.

It's different in judaism.
Well, to be fair, I think that example would only work in certain forms of Christianity.

[CMike11]

Well, to be fair, I think that example would only work in certain forms of Christianity.

Well, let's ask.

If Hitler before his death "saw the light" and "found jesus" and became a devout christian would he go to heaven?

[DispensationalJim]

As jews are mission is to do what is right, not what is necessarily easier.

I believe a Christian has the opportunity and responsibility to always do what is right according to God's Word. "Easy" is a relative term.

IMO, as a Christian does what is right, many in society will shun and even punish such actions since often the moral standards and convictions of a Christian go against the "grain" of the "modern" liberal attitude.

As I see it, a Christian is free FROM SIN, not TO SIN.

However, this type of discussion can lead away from the Trinity discussion and toward a debate about Eternal Security, which has been covered quite well in other threads, IMO.

[Koushi Shinigami]

Please forgive me, Koushi, but I have no idea what "Meh" means. :confused:

Could you kindly enlighten this old man? :)


Google is your friend. Try looking it up.

[Tucson Jim]

G-D knows we are not perfect.

The idea is the struggle to keep them is what gets us closer to G-D.

By struggle I mean fighting the evil inclination and doing what's right.

I can appreciate that. I struggle against certain sins, but I often lose and sometimes I don't fight hard enough. Still, I take it seriously and I try. So I do appreciate the struggle you refer to.

But in my case, I fear my failures would overcome me, were it not for my faith in the salvation which comes through the sacrifice of Jesus: "For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, so that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit;" 1 Pet 3:18.

I know you don't believe that scripture but it has brought a lot of comfort to me. Hard to tell from my posts, but I am actually a very sensitive person and I believe sin and guilt would overcome me, and I would cease even trying, were it not for the confidence I have in God's forgiveness through Christ. The weight of my sin is too hard for me to bear. Thank God, through Jesus Christ, that He has borne my sin for me. It gives me strength to carry on, strength to continue the struggle you refer to.

[Tucson Jim]

We are not shopping around for a car, we are doing what G-D told us to do in order to get closer to him.

I thank Hannity and the Jewish folk on this forum. I finally think I understand your point of view.

Just attending Christian churches, I thought law-keeping was a regimented, legalistic existence.

But now I can better appreciate that you try to keep the laws out of love and respect for God, out of a desire to be closer to Him

I respect and appreciate that.

[Koushi Shinigami]

hallelujah

[Tucson Jim]

It does give one insight into perhaps why Christianity tends to be popular, doesn't it?

I won't say that Christianity is dumbed-down at all, because I find Christianity, especially Catholicism which is what I know best, to be highly intellectual. But Christianity certain seems a lot easier than Judaism.

I would dispute that.

But in any case, "easier" does not mean "wrong".

[Tucson Jim]

I'm so thankful that my apostle Paul told me that I am no longer under the law, but under GRACE! (Rom. 6)

That gives me "Blessed Assurance" that I already have everlasting life because of my faith in the work Jesus Christ did on the cross.

And that gives me the greatest motivation possible to spend every waking moment trying to spread the good news to anyone who will listen that CHRIST DIED FOR OUR SINS.

AMEN Jim!!!

[Tucson Jim]

Meh.

I'll see your Meh and raise you two :eh::eh:

[Tucson Jim]

Christians are freed from following the Jewish laws. How can that not be easier? :mrgreen:

The law of Love God with all your heart and your neighbor as yourself is easily as hard as the 613 we just read. Harder, I think.

[Tucson Jim]

I agree.

Even Hitler the worst mass murderer within recent history, if he "saw the light" and "found jesus" right before he died, according to christianity he is going to heaven.

It's different in judaism.

"Saw the light" is up to God.

Do you trust God's judgment?

[DispensationalJim]

Well, let's ask.

If Hitler before his death "saw the light" and "found jesus" and became a devout christian would he go to heaven?

How about the opposite situation? If the apostle James, for instance, lived a "perfect" life keeping all the laws and trusting in God, but right at the last moment in his life, killed someone in a weak moment, and didn't get a chance to "repent," would he go to Hell?

Just curious... which do you think would be the most or least "fair"?

[DispensationalJim]

Google is your friend. Try looking it up.

OK, I found this:

Definition of meh :.

(mē')

1. (n.) A multi-purpose response, primarily used to imply a degree of indifference. Tone of voice and circumstance often implies a meaning. Can be used when you don't want to answer an awkward or embarrassing question, or if you just plain have nothing else to say, and you want the other person to interpret the "meh" however he/she chooses. As in: Q: "What do you think of my new dress?" A: "Meh." or Q: "What do you want to do tonight?" A: "Meh."

[Tucson Jim]

Well, let's ask.

If Hitler before his death "saw the light" and "found jesus" and became a devout christian would he go to heaven?

Please don't try to reduce the faith of others to fit with your own stereotypes.

Christianity teaches that salvation is a work of God and requires genuine repentance and consequent transformation by God. Yet your statement implies a kind of "Cheap Grace", a vulgar impostor of true repentance. It implies a Hitler could cheat the judgment of God with a false, superficial profession of faith.

It doesn't work like that.

Yes, if God chose Hitler, called him, Hitler repented, gave his heart to God, was filled with the Holy Spirit, yes, He would be saved.

It could theoretically happen, but come on . . . in my faith this ultimately depends on God and requires faith on the part of Hitler.

The likelihood of either event, much less both, seems extremely remote.

Please try to at least be fair.

[dave rogers]

Of course hitler would go to heaven. Amazing grace was written by a repentent slave ship captain.

[Finality]

Please don't try to reduce the faith of others to fit with your own stereotypes.

Christianity teaches that salvation is a work of God and requires genuine repentance and consequent transformation by God. Yet your statement implies a kind of "Cheap Grace", a vulgar impostor of true repentance. It implies a Hitler could cheat the judgment of God with a false, superficial profession of faith.

It doesn't work like that.

Yes, if God chose Hitler, called him, Hitler repented, gave his heart to God, was filled with the Holy Spirit, yes, He would be saved.

It could theoretically happen, but come on . . . in my faith this ultimately depends on God and requires faith on the part of Hitler.

The likelihood of either event, much less both, seems extremely remote.

Please try to at least be fair.
This sounds like the God of Probabilities.
The law of Love God with all your heart and your neighbor as yourself is easily as hard as the 613 we just read. Harder, I think.
If you say so, dude. One rule is as hard to follow as the 613? Color me skeptical.

[DispensationalJim]

Of course hitler would go to heaven. Amazing grace was written by a repentent slave ship captain.

I think that is why Grace is called "AMAZING". :)

[Koushi Shinigami]

I'll see your Meh and raise you two :eh::eh:

Nice.

[Koushi Shinigami]

OK, I found this:

Definition of meh :.

(mē')

1. (n.) A multi-purpose response, primarily used to imply a degree of indifference. Tone of voice and circumstance often implies a meaning. Can be used when you don't want to answer an awkward or embarrassing question, or if you just plain have nothing else to say, and you want the other person to interpret the "meh" however he/she chooses. As in: Q: "What do you think of my new dress?" A: "Meh." or Q: "What do you want to do tonight?" A: "Meh."

:clap:

Remember "Can be used" doesn't mean "Is always used".

[dave rogers]

THe aphostle Paul calls himself the worst sinner. He says this to prove the point that if he can be saved, then forgivness, salvation, eternal life truly is for anyone. A terrorist, abortion doctor, liberal, the sef rightous, thieves, murderers, rapists, etc. can all be saved if they truly accept Jesus Christ as their personal saviour. Remember God says our good works are as filthy rags. If your depending on your being a good person to get to heaven, you are mistaken. After a persons pride is broken and they humble themselves before God and accept God's free gift of salvation, that person recieves the holy spirit. That person will have a brand knew desire to please God with their lives. Not from a sense of debt but from a grateful heart. Only God knows your heart at the point of salvation. Just saying the words is'nt going to work.

[Tucson Jim]

This sounds like the God of Probabilities.

I have no idea what you're talking about. :eh:

If you say so, dude. One rule is as hard to follow as the 613?

Harder. Think about it . . .

Color me skeptical.

Done.

[Tucson Jim]

Of course hitler would go to heaven. Amazing grace was written by a repentent slave ship captain.

Exactly right.

[Tucson Jim]

THe aphostle Paul calls himself the worst sinner. He says this to prove the point that if he can be saved, then forgivness, salvation, eternal life truly is for anyone. A terrorist, abortion doctor, liberal, the sef rightous, thieves, murderers, rapists, etc. can all be saved if they truly accept Jesus Christ as their personal saviour. Remember God says our good works are as filthy rags. If your depending on your being a good person to get to heaven, you are mistaken. After a persons pride is broken and they humble themselves before God and accept God's free gift of salvation, that person recieves the holy spirit. That person will have a brand knew desire to please God with their lives. Not from a sense of debt but from a grateful heart. Only God knows your heart at the point of salvation. Just saying the words is'nt going to work.

Another good one - thanks Dave!

[DispensationalJim]

This sounds like the God of Probabilities.
...
If you say so, dude. One rule is as hard to follow as the 613? Color me skeptical.

Here is one of my favorite "rules" for a Christian to live by from my apostle, Paul:
• Rom. 12:1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service. 2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

So, Finality, if you think that is easy to do, then I would encourage you to "go for it"! :)

[DRS]

Christians are freed from following the Jewish laws. How can that not be easier? :mrgreen:

Christians are told to live a simple life and a life of sacrifice

[DispensationalJim]

THe aphostle Paul calls himself the worst sinner. He says this to prove the point that if he can be saved, then forgivness, salvation, eternal life truly is for anyone. A terrorist, abortion doctor, liberal, the sef rightous, thieves, murderers, rapists, etc. can all be saved if they truly accept Jesus Christ as their personal saviour. Remember God says our good works are as filthy rags. If your depending on your being a good person to get to heaven, you are mistaken. After a persons pride is broken and they humble themselves before God and accept God's free gift of salvation, that person recieves the holy spirit. That person will have a brand knew desire to please God with their lives. Not from a sense of debt but from a grateful heart. Only God knows your heart at the point of salvation. Just saying the words is'nt going to work.

Thank you very much, dave rogers, for those great thoughts.

I love to preach about Paul. I love to remind folks that he was converted to Christ in Acts 9, but in Acts 8, he was Saul, and he was apparently in charge of the stoning of Stephen!!!

Now, just imagine if you had just authorized the murder of one of Christ's faithful followers, and then you are on your way to another town (Damascus) to arrest and imprison or possibly even kill some more of His followers, and this bright light shines down at you from Heaven, and a voice from the Lord says to you: "I am JESUS, whom thou persecutest", would you not be looking for a hole to crawl into?? Would you not assume that you are about to be fried??

But Jesus did not fry Saul! He forgave and saved Saul and showed Saul the exact same thing that Saul/Paul later taught us... GRACE!!! Thus, Paul is the perfect example of salvation by grace for us today, as he tells us repeatedly in his epistles.
• Eph. 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

=================================

Thanks again for your post, dave. Please stick around and share more with us. :)

[Finality]

Here is one of my favorite "rules" for a Christian to live by from my apostle, Paul:
• Rom. 12:1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service. 2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

So, Finality, if you think that is easy to do, then I would encourage you to "go for it"! :)
If you think that refers to something difficult, then you must have a significantly different interpretation of that than the RCC does. See, e.g., CCC § 2031.

I see that as one of the easiest.

[Finality]

Christians are told to live a simple life and a life of sacrifice
I agree, and I don't think that doing so is difficult.

[terri910]

I agree, and I don't think that doing so is difficult.
Are you a man or a woman, Finality?

[Finality]

Are you a man or a woman, Finality?
Male. Does that reveal everything about me? :mrgreen:

[terri910]

Male. Does that reveal everything about me? :mrgreen:
Well, I'm thinking that you might find living as a woman difficult, then.

Because it would be in opposition to your nature.

I don't think many people would think living a life of sacrifice is "easy." It is against our nature. There are certainly some for whom it seems to come more easily. But, trust me, it is not easy for many at all.

[DRS]

I agree, and I don't think that doing so is difficult.

Imitating Jesus in all aspects to you does not seem more difficult than following 613 commandments?


Including preaching and be willing to die rather than kill others

[CMike11]

Well, to be fair, I think that example would only work in certain forms of Christianity.

Well Finality it seems that the statement was fair.

According to christianity if Hitler "saw the light" right before he died, he would go to heaven.

Nice...

[terri910]

If you think that refers to something difficult, then you must have a significantly different interpretation of that than the RCC does.
I think you will find that happens a lot. And not just with DispensationalJim....

[DRS]

I agree.

Even Hitler the worst mass murderer within recent history, if he "saw the light" and "found jesus" right before he died, according to christianity he is going to heaven.

It's different in judaism.

No he is not going to heaven

[terri910]

No he is not going to heaven
I think I am about to learn something I didn't know about JW doctrine.

Can you tell me how you know Hitler is not in heaven?

[DRS]

THe aphostle Paul calls himself the worst sinner. He says this to prove the point that if he can be saved, then forgivness, salvation, eternal life truly is for anyone. A terrorist, abortion doctor, liberal, the sef rightous, thieves, murderers, rapists, etc. can all be saved if they truly accept Jesus Christ as their personal saviour. Remember God says our good works are as filthy rags. If your depending on your being a good person to get to heaven, you are mistaken. After a persons pride is broken and they humble themselves before God and accept God's free gift of salvation, that person recieves the holy spirit. That person will have a brand knew desire to please God with their lives. Not from a sense of debt but from a grateful heart. Only God knows your heart at the point of salvation. Just saying the words is'nt going to work.

liberal is a sin

Not sure if i ever read one must be a conservative to be saved

[DRS]

I think I am about to learn something I didn't know about JW doctrine.

Can you tell me how you know Hitler is not in heaven?

Jesus said those who were going to be in heaven were going to rule as kings and priests, Jesus made covenant with those who would be corulers

One might get a second chance in the resurrection, but if one really repented and saw the need for change they would not kill themself

Hitler also tried to say he was going to set up the 1000 year reign so he was trying to take the place of Jesus as the rightful ruler

[terri910]

...but if one really repented and saw the need for change they would not kill themself...
If there were no mitigating issues such as mental incapacity, I think you have a point with this part. And it is probably why I suspect Hitler did not go to heaven....but in the end, I still know that it is God's call. I imagine we will all have some surprises when we fully understand perfect justice.

[DRS]

If there were no mitigating issues such as mental incapacity, I think you have a point with this part. And it is probably why I suspect Hitler did not go to heaven....but in the end, I still know that it is God's call. I imagine we will all have some surprises when we fully understand perfect justice.

We are also judged by our deeds in life, Revelation speaks of scrolls being opened and our being being judged

Paul killed but in his heart he honestly though he was doing right and repented as soon as he learned otherwise and then spent the rest of his life making up for it,

Hitler was responsible for playing the part in the deaths of millions

[terri910]

We are also judged by our deeds in life, Revelation speaks of scrolls being opened and our being being judged

Paul killed but in his heart he honestly though he was doing right and repented as soon as he learned otherwise and then spent the rest of his life making up for it,

Hitler was responsible for playing the part in the deaths of millions
I think most Christians believe we are judged for our deeds in life, but either repentance or intent (according to your example of Paul) changes the ultimate outcome of that judgment, would you agree?

[the oldtimer]

Hitler also tried to say he was going to set up the 1000 year reign so he was trying to take the place of Jesus as the rightful ruler

If ,Jesus, is not God come in the flesh, and just a mere man as you have stated in the past, what difference would it make? Do you think that Hitler, would be one, of the 144,000 allowed into heaven, or would he have to spend eternity here on earth? Placing the second person, of the trinity, in charge of heaven makes sense to me. Giving,that position to a glorified man MNS.

[CMike11]

Please don't try to reduce the faith of others to fit with your own stereotypes.

Christianity teaches that salvation is a work of God and requires genuine repentance and consequent transformation by God. Yet your statement implies a kind of "Cheap Grace", a vulgar impostor of true repentance. It implies a Hitler could cheat the judgment of God with a false, superficial profession of faith.

It doesn't work like that.

Yes, if God chose Hitler, called him, Hitler repented, gave his heart to God, was filled with the Holy Spirit, yes, He would be saved.

It could theoretically happen, but come on . . . in my faith this ultimately depends on God and requires faith on the part of Hitler.

The likelihood of either event, much less both, seems extremely remote.

Please try to at least be fair.


Yanno...you may have heard David Berkowitz aka the Son Of Sam, is a born again, and selling tapes.

I believe he murdered three and wouldn't five (something like that).

He is a former jew. However, I will now speak for all the jews, and say you can have him.

In Judaism, mass murderers don't get a pass even if they "saw the light".

To get forgivenss from G-D for sins against man, you first to get forgivenss from the person you sinned against.

Hitler can never go to heaven based on judaism.

[terri910]

Yanno...you may have heard David Berkowitz aka the Son Of Sam, is a born again, and selling tapes.

I believe he murdered three and wouldn't five (something like that).

He is a former jew. However, I will now speak for all the jews, and say you can have him.

In Judaism, mass murderers don't get a pass even if they "saw the light".

To get forgivenss from G-D for sins against man, you first to get forgivenss from the person you sinned against.

Hitler can never go to heaven based on judaism.
If I understand you correctly, NO murderer would ever go to heaven, according to Judaism. Am I right? (the number of murders would not matter)

[Tucson Jim]

Here is one of my favorite "rules" for a Christian to live by from my apostle, Paul:
• Rom. 12:1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service. 2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

So, Finality, if you think that is easy to do, then I would encourage you to "go for it"! :)

:clap:

[Tucson Jim]

Christians are told to live a simple life and a life of sacrifice

But not an "easy" life . . .

[Tucson Jim]

Thank you very much, dave rogers, for those great thoughts.

I love to preach about Paul. I love to remind folks that he was converted to Christ in Acts 9, but in Acts 8, he was Saul, and he was apparently in charge of the stoning of Stephen!!!

Now, just imagine if you had just authorized the murder of one of Christ's faithful followers, and then you are on your way to another town (Damascus) to arrest and imprison or possibly even kill some more of His followers, and this bright light shines down at you from Heaven, and a voice from the Lord says to you: "I am JESUS, whom thou persecutest", would you not be looking for a hole to crawl into?? Would you not assume that you are about to be fried??

But Jesus did not fry Saul! He forgave and saved Saul and showed Saul the exact same thing that Saul/Paul later taught us... GRACE!!! Thus, Paul is the perfect example of salvation by grace for us today, as he tells us repeatedly in his epistles.
• Eph. 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

=================================

Thanks again for your post, dave. Please stick around and share more with us. :)

AMEN, AMEN and AMEN!!!

[Tucson Jim]

I agree, and I don't think that doing so is difficult.

No offense, but IMO, it sounds like you either don't understand it or haven't tried.

[Tucson Jim]

Imitating Jesus in all aspects to you does not seem more difficult than following 613 commandments?


Including preaching and be willing to die rather than kill others

Amen DRS!!

(Can't believe I'm saying that! :)))

[Tucson Jim]

Well Finality it seems that the statement was fair.

According to christianity if Hitler "saw the light" right before he died, he would go to heaven.

Nice...

Straw man . . .

And thanks for trying to be fair . . . .:rolleyes:

[Tucson Jim]

No he is not going to heaven

God? Is that you?

[Tucson Jim]

Jesus said those who were going to be in heaven were going to rule as kings and priests, Jesus made covenant with those who would be corulers

One might get a second chance in the resurrection, but if one really repented and saw the need for change they would not kill themself

Hitler also tried to say he was going to set up the 1000 year reign so he was trying to take the place of Jesus as the rightful ruler

Bottom line: You have NO IDEA of whether Hitler, or anyone else for that matter, is going to heaven.

NONE

NADA.

[Tucson Jim]

If there were no mitigating issues such as mental incapacity, I think you have a point with this part. And it is probably why I suspect Hitler did not go to heaven....but in the end, I still know that it is God's call. I imagine we will all have some surprises when we fully understand perfect justice.

Amen Terri!

[Tucson Jim]

We are also judged by our deeds in life, Revelation speaks of scrolls being opened and our being being judged

Paul killed but in his heart he honestly though he was doing right


From what I have read, Hitler thought he was doing right too, thought he was doing what is best for the human race.

and repented as soon as he learned otherwise and then spent the rest of his life making up for it,

And perhaps Hitler repented too.

You do not know.

Hitler was responsible for playing the part in the deaths of millions

So? Whoever is angry with his brother is guilty enough to go into the fiery hell.

[Tucson Jim]

Yanno...you may have heard David Berkowitz aka the Son Of Sam, is a born again, and selling tapes.

I believe he murdered three and wouldn't five (something like that).

He is a former jew. However, I will now speak for all the jews, and say you can have him.

If David Berkowitz actually repented and is a born again Believer, we will gladly take him, thank you very much!

If this is true, he is a new creation of God, transformed by God, the old things have passed away, new things have come.

I would be happy to call a truly born again ex-murderer my Brother.

And personally, I would be just as happy to have nothing at all to do with smug religionists, convinced in their own hearts they are pure, justified in their own minds by their puny works, all the while harboring hatred for for their fellow man.

"9And He also told this parable to some people who trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and viewed others with contempt:

10"Two men went up into the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector.

11"The Pharisee stood and was praying this to himself: 'God, I thank You that I am not like other people: swindlers, unjust, adulterers, or even like this tax collector.

12'I fast twice a week; I pay tithes of all that I get.'

13"But the tax collector, standing some distance away, was even unwilling to lift up his eyes to heaven, but was beating his breast, saying, 'God, be merciful to me, the sinner!'

14"I tell you, this man went to his house justified rather than the other; for everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, but he who humbles himself will be exalted." Luke 18:9-14

In Judaism, mass murderers don't get a pass even if they "saw the light".

I don't see much understanding or compassion in such a view. People can change - at least they can be changed by God. I know that from personal experience.

To get forgivenss from G-D for sins against man, you first to get forgivenss from the person you sinned against.

Hitler can never go to heaven based on judaism.

Based on the God I know, it is possible he could.

But if he did, he would be a person completely changed by God. No longer the hateful murderer we saw on earth.

[Finality]

No offense, but IMO, it sounds like you either don't understand it or haven't tried.
Are you saying that you think living a simple life in the model of Jesus is difficult?

Just because you say "no offense" doesn't mean what you write is not offensive. You have no way of knowing what I have experienced in my life.

If you are trying to live a simple and moral life, and that is hard for you, and you feel bad about it or something, then I am very sorry for you and I hope that you will do better in the future.

[Tucson Jim]

Are you saying that you think living a simple life in the model of Jesus is difficult?

No.

I'm saying it is impossible.

Just because you say "no offense" doesn't mean what you write is not offensive. You have no way of knowing what I have experienced in my life.

True. But I truly meant no offense to you. Its just that your comments suggest to me that you don't really understand the kind of life Jesus lived, or have not tried it yourself. Perhaps I am wrong.

If you are trying to live a simple and moral life, and that is hard for you, and you feel bad about it or something, then I am very sorry for you and I hope that you will do better in the future.

I wasn't talking about living a "simple and moral life". I was talking about living a life that is Christ-like. Again, it seems we are talking about two different things.

We are also way off the topic of this thread. I suggest we get back to it!

[terri910]

If you are trying to live a simple and moral life...
I don't think those were the terms used...."simple" was, but the other terms that have been used are not the same as a "moral" life.

[Finality]

I don't think those were the terms used...."simple" was, but the other terms that have been used are not the same as a "moral" life.
Fair enough.

Also, I think Jim is right that this is waaaaaay off topic. Not that such a thing ever happens around here ... :))

[terri910]

Also, I think Jim is right that this is waaaaaay off topic. Not that such a thing ever happens around here ... :))
:doh:

[Finality]

:doh:
The only problem is ... what was the topic again?

[terri910]

The only problem is ... what was the topic again?
I'll bet I can three or four persons that will be happy to get it back on track! *L*