Should You Believe In The Trinity?

[DispensationalJim]

you mean where Jesus gave no consideration to taking by force something that did not belong to him?

As usual, I'll stick with the good old King James Bible regarding the passage to which you refer:
• Phil. 2:5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: 6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: 7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: 8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

[DRS]

As usual, I'll stick with the good old King James Bible regarding the passage to which you refer:
• Phil. 2:5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: 6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: 7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: 8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

You can do that and willfully ignore the fact the greek word here means to seize or take by force something not belonging to you

[DRS]

Yes. John 1:18 has two instances of God.

Back that that "the" God thing again?
You do not have a the before the first instance the fact that the second is referred as begotten god demonstrates what earlier passages showed, he was produced a the beginning of Jehovah's ways and angels were called gods also in Psalms

[DRS]

So you believe that he has to be either an angel or the Most High? I can go with that!

Angels are created beings and Col 1 says that Christ created them, so unless he created himself, he can not be an angel. So that leaves only one choice.

But as Paul also showed all things does not means all things, for instance all things are submitted to Jesus but God is not subject to Jesus. But Jesus is subject to God

And of course if we take you view then the occurence of all in connection with Jesus death leads us to the universalists view and all will live in Christ

[ralittlefield]

But as Paul also showed all things does not means all things, for instance all things are submitted to Jesus but God is not subject to Jesus. But Jesus is subject to God

And of course if we take you view then the occurence of all in connection with Jesus death leads us to the universalists view and all will live in Christ

I agree that the word all can have a limited scope, but in this case it does not.

The language used makes it clear that Jesus did in fact create all things. It does not simple state that He created all things, it emphasises that the scope of his creation is total. Everything that was created, was created by Jesus.


John 1:3
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.


Col 1:16
For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him.


So, unless Jesus created himself, he is not an angel. That still leaves you with only one choice.... He is God.

[Warrior4God]

Actually, what DRS posted puts human limits on God.

If you are comfortable saying that something is not possible with God, because it does not fit human ideas of how things should be, then go for it, and you are welcome to it. I choose not to put my limitations on God.

You lost me there.

I don't put limits on God......My God is the Father of Jesus Christ and at this point as Jesus sits at Gods right hand he is still Gods Son and a man.

God gave Jesus human limits then as he did Gods will he was GIVEN all authority and power and created the church of the one body.

Col. even lists what Jesus has created and you just need to read it.



Jesus is still a man and not God because God is not a man.



1Ti 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;


Num 23:19 God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good.


Jesus is a man,which 1 Tim. 2:5 declares.

God is Spirit, which Jesus himself declares.

I gotta go with Jesus on this one.


Joh 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

Notice that Jesus did not say that his Father was Spirit in that passage, but said God is Spirit which shows that him being flesh and blood was not Spirit which kinda blows out of the water the whole Jesus is God thing unless Jesus mispoke.

[drmilo]

You can do that and willfully ignore the fact the greek word here means to seize or take by force something not belonging to you

Actually, the King James Version DJim posted does no such thing translating the word as robbery. Robbery means to take something that does not belong to you. You seem to be misreading the passage. Christ thought it was not robbery to be equal to God. "Who, being in the form of God" (Christ was in the form of God) "thought it not robbery to be equal to God" (he did not have to take by force (steal, or rob) equality with God because he was already in the form of God)

[ralittlefield]

You lost me there.

I don't put limits on God......My God is the Father of Jesus Christ and at this point as Jesus sits at Gods right hand he is still Gods Son and a man.

God gave Jesus human limits then as he did Gods will he was GIVEN all authority and power and created the church of the one body.

Col. even lists what Jesus has created and you just need to read it.

You say Jesus was a man, yet you admit that he created the things listed in Col 1.

Do you really believe that a man could create those things?

John 1 says that he created all things that were created.



Jesus is still a man and not God because God is not a man.



1Ti 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;


Num 23:19 God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good.


Jesus is a man,which 1 Tim. 2:5 declares.

God is Spirit, which Jesus himself declares.

I gotta go with Jesus on this one.


Joh 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

I go with Jesus on this one also.

He is shown in Phil 2 to be God who took the nature of a servant and took the form of a man.

Thomas call Jesus "his God" . I not only go with Jesus, I go with the whole bible.

[drmilo]

Col. even lists what Jesus has created and you just need to read it.


Would you call what col. lists a limited list?

Let's see, it says he created all things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible. How is that limiting him to only creating certain things?

[ralittlefield]

Actually, the King James Version DJim posted does no such thing translating the word as robbery. Robbery means to take something that does not belong to you. You seem to be misreading the passage. Christ thought it was not robbery to be equal to God. "Who, being in the form of God" (Christ was in the form of God) "thought it not robbery to be equal to God" (he did not have to take by force (steal, or rob) equality with God because he was already in the form of God)

That is a good point.

Since he thought it not robbery, obviously he thought that equality with God was rightly his.

[Warrior4God]

Would you call what col. lists a limited list?

Let's see, it says he created all things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible. How is that limiting him to only creating certain things?

I am not calling it anything but reading whats written and E.W. Bullinger notes in his book on figures of speech,it is the figure encircling.

[Warrior4God]

Actually, the King James Version DJim posted does no such thing translating the word as robbery. Robbery means to take something that does not belong to you. You seem to be misreading the passage. Christ thought it was not robbery to be equal to God. "Who, being in the form of God" (Christ was in the form of God) "thought it not robbery to be equal to God" (he did not have to take by force (steal, or rob) equality with God because he was already in the form of God)

You can say that all you want but does not change what it really is saying..............

(ASV) who, existing in the form of God, counted not the being on an equality with God a thing to be grasped,

(ESV) who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped,

Thank God someone translated it right where the KJV destroyed the truth of it and you can look at the greek words and see that KJV blew it.

Sorry DJim.

[Warrior4God]

You say Jesus was a man, yet you admit that he created the things listed in Col 1.




Yup I admit that God gave Jesus the power and authority.

Yup

[CMike11]

Yup I admit that God gave Jesus the power and authority.

Yup

So you believe Jesus and G-D are separate?

[Warrior4God]

John 1 says that he created all things that were created.


Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.
Joh 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.


verse 2 says the same (logos=Word) was in the beginning with God and then goes on in verse 3 to say All things were made by him(God); and without him(God) was not any thing made that was made.

There were no puncuations or verses used it all flowed together and IMO verse 2 and 3 could have and in fact should have been 1 verse.

You can read it any way you want but it is refering to God doing the creating the way it reads.

[Warrior4God]

So you believe Jesus and G-D are separate?

Yes they are only one in purpose.

Jesus was and is a man........not God.

IMO to make God or any part of God into his creation (a man) is blasphemy.

Just my view and people see it differently.

[ralittlefield]

Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.
Joh 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.


verse 2 says the same (logos=Word) was in the beginning with God and then goes on in verse 3 to say All things were made by him(God); and without him(God) was not any thing made that was made.

There were no puncuations or verses used it all flowed together and IMO verse 2 and 3 could have and in fact should have been 1 verse.

You can read it any way you want but it is refering to God doing the creating the way it reads.

Do you really believe that is how it reads? I have trouble believing that you are being serious here.

[ralittlefield]

You can say that all you want but does not change what it really is saying..............

(ASV) who, existing in the form of God, counted not the being on an equality with God a thing to be grasped,

(ESV) who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped,

Thank God someone translated it right where the KJV destroyed the truth of it and you can look at the greek words and see that KJV blew it.

Sorry DJim.

Warrior, I think that you just shot yourself in the foot. You have made our point for us.

Both of those versions say that Jesus did not count (or consider) equality with God something to be grasped (or held on to, or kept).

The passage continuse to say that He gave up equality with God and became a servant.

7 but made himself nothing,
taking the very nature of a servant,
being made in human likeness

[ralittlefield]

Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.
Joh 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

verse 2 says the same (logos=Word) was in the beginning with God and then goes on in verse 3 to say All things were made by him(God); and without him(God) was not any thing made that was made.

There were no puncuations or verses used it all flowed together and IMO verse 2 and 3 could have and in fact should have been 1 verse.

You can read it any way you want but it is refering to God doing the creating the way it reads.

Earlier tonight you said




Col. even lists what Jesus has created and you just need to read it.

So what is your position?

Do you believe that God created all things, or do you believe that Jesus created the things in Col 1?

[Warrior4God]

Do you really believe that is how it reads? I have trouble believing that you are being serious here.

Don't be so biased when you read.

I believe you have been so indoctrinated as to what it says you can't believe any other view is right.

Just how I see many verses you use to try to support Jesus being God when Jesus himself made it clear that his God is my God.

Jesus did not claim being God and did not imply it because he knew the only ONE true God sent him.

[Warrior4God]

Earlier tonight you said




So what is your position?

Do you believe that God created all things, or do you believe that Jesus created the things in Col 1?

You need to go back and read..........reading whats written is not hard.........here is whats written and what he was creating since he was resurrected...........

whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
Col 1:17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

[DispensationalJim]

You can say that all you want but does not change what it really is saying..............

(ASV) who, existing in the form of God, counted not the being on an equality with God a thing to be grasped,

(ESV) who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped,

Thank God someone translated it right where the KJV destroyed the truth of it and you can look at the greek words and see that KJV blew it.

Sorry DJim.

My dear Warrior,
Could I ask a big favor of you?

Could you please post for us a comparison between the Wescott and Hort Greek text (basis for the ASV and the ESV) of Phil.2:6 and the Textus Receptus Greek text (basis for the KJB) of Phil. 2:6?

If they are not exactly the same, then could you please explain to us (and maybe to yourself) how those differences could affect the translation into English of the ASV, ESV, and the KJB?

[Warrior4God]

I go with Jesus on this one also.



Show Jesus's words where he claimed being God.

Lets go with Jesus and show where he said he was God

[drmilo]

I am not calling it anything but reading whats written and E.W. Bullinger notes in his book on figures of speech,it is the figure encircling.

Still, what is encircled? "all things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible..."

Not only are the thrones, principalities, etc encircled, but encircled by the all things ... all things is ALL THINGS.

[drmilo]

You can say that all you want but does not change what it really is saying..............

(ASV) who, existing in the form of God, counted not the being on an equality with God a thing to be grasped,

(ESV) who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped,

Thank God someone translated it right where the KJV destroyed the truth of it and you can look at the greek words and see that KJV blew it.

Sorry DJim.

I have looked at the greek in an interlinear and I agree with the KJV version. As DRS pointed out, the greek does intone something "taken by force" or "robbery." Where DRS is wrong is in not understanding that Christ thought it was not robbery to be equal with God (because he already deemed himself equal with God, because he knew he was/is God.)

I think "something to be grasped" is a little clumsy.

[drmilo]

Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.
Joh 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.


verse 2 says the same (logos=Word) was in the beginning with God and then goes on in verse 3 to say All things were made by him(God); and without him(God) was not any thing made that was made.

There were no puncuations or verses used it all flowed together and IMO verse 2 and 3 could have and in fact should have been 1 verse.

You can read it any way you want but it is refering to God doing the creating the way it reads.


Um... no. And I'll tell you why. You are taking a prepositional phrase and making it the subject of the rest of the sentence. The subject is the actor in the verse, not the object in the prepositional phrase. The subject is "the same" or the Word. There is nothing in the way these verses are written (either separate or as one) that leads one to believe that the subeject of verse 3 is not the same as the subject of verse 2. In fact, "the Word" is ths subject of verses 1-5.

[DRS]

I agree that the word all can have a limited scope, but in this case it does not.

The language used makes it clear that Jesus did in fact create all things. It does not simple state that He created all things, it emphasises that the scope of his creation is total. Everything that was created, was created by Jesus.


John 1:3
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.


Col 1:16
For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him.


So, unless Jesus created himself, he is not an angel. That still leaves you with only one choice.... He is God.

Not really since pretrinitatin writings apply Proverbs8:22-31 to Jesus as the one whom Jehovah created as the beginning of His ways

[DispensationalJim]

Not really since pretrinitatin writings apply Proverbs8:22-31 to Jesus as the one whom Jehovah created as the beginning of His ways

Please give us a break, DRS. You have been shown by several of the posters on here several times that Prov. 8 is NOT speaking about Jesus. Must we go through this all again???

Ralittlefield's logic is sound and IMO you do not have a "leg to stand on."

[Reeder]

Show Jesus's words where he claimed being God.

Lets go with Jesus and show where he said he was God

You wouldn't believe it if I showed you...

[DRS]

Please give us a break, DRS. You have been shown by several of the posters on here several times that Prov. 8 is NOT speaking about Jesus. Must we go through this all again???

Ralittlefield's logic is sound and IMO you do not have a "leg to stand on."

No you have not shown anything as you have failed to show that the congregator is also a female, you borrowed the same old tired arguement that has been proven wrong by scholars

The arguement you have goes back to men such as Justin Martyr who also believed this was referring to Jesus

[DRS]

Chapter LXI—Wisdom is begotten of the Father, as fire from fire.
“I shall give you another testimony, my friends,” said I, “from the Scriptures, that God begat before all creatures a Beginning,21672167 Or, “in the beginning, before all creatures.” [Justin’s reference to Josh. i. 13–15 deserves special consideration; for he supposes that the true Joshua (Jesus) was the substance, and the true “captain of salvation,” of whom this one was but a shadow (Heb. iv. 8, margin), type, and pledge. See cap. lxii.] [who was] a certain rational power [proceeding] from Himself, who is called by the Holy Spirit, now the Glory of the Lord, now the Son, again Wisdom, again an Angel, then God, and then Lord and Logos; and on another occasion He calls Himself Captain, when He appeared in human form to Joshua the son of Nave (Nun). For He can be called by all those names, since He ministers to the Father’s will, and since He was begotten of the Father by an act of will;21682168 The act of will or volition is on the part of the Father. just as we see21692169 Or, “Do we not see,” etc. happening among ourselves: for when we give out some word, we beget the word; yet not by abscission, so as to lessen the word21702170 The word, λόγος translated “word,” means both the thinking power or reason which produces ideas and the expression of these ideas. And Justin passes here from the one meaning to the other. When we utter a thought, the utterance of it does not diminish the power of thought in us, though in one sense the thought has gone away from us. [which remains] in us, when we give it out: and just as we see also happening in the case of a fire, which is not lessened when it has kindled [another], but remains the same; and that which has been kindled by it likewise appears to exist by itself, not diminishing that from which it was kindled. The Word of Wisdom, who is Himself this God begotten of the Father of all things, and Word, and Wisdom, and Power, and the Glory of the Begetter, will bear evidence to me, when He speaks by Solomon the following: ‘If I shall declare to you what happens daily, I shall call to mind events from everlasting, and review them. The Lord made me the 228 beginning of His ways for His works. From everlasting He established me in the beginning, before He had made the earth, and before He had made the deeps, before the springs of the waters had issued forth, before the mountains had been established. Before all the hills He begets me. God made the country, and the desert, and the highest inhabited places under the sky. When He made ready the heavens, I was along with Him, and when He set up His throne on the winds: when He made the high clouds strong, and the springs of the deep safe, when He made the foundations of the earth, I was with Him arranging. I was that in which He rejoiced; daily and at all times I delighted in His countenance, because He delighted in the finishing of the habitable world, and delighted in the sons of men. Now, therefore, O son, hear me. Blessed is the man who shall listen to me, and the mortal who shall keep my ways, watching21712171 The mss. of Justin read “sleeping,” but this is regarded as the mistake of some careless transcriber. daily at my doors, observing the posts of my ingoings. For my outgoings are the outgoings of life, and [my] will has been prepared by the Lord. But they who sin against me, trespass against their own souls; and they who hate me love death.’21722172 Prov. viii. 21 ff.
http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf01.viii.iv.lxi.html

[Reeder]

I got lost in that gigantic paragraph and gave up....

[DRS]

it is too bad because he talks about Jesus being present in the Ot and the titles he had including this passage in Joshua

13*And it came about when Joshua happened to be by Jer′i‧cho that he proceeded to raise his eyes and look, and there there was a man standing in front of him with his drawn sword in his hand. So Joshua walked up to him and said to him: “Are you for us or for our adversaries?” 14*To this he said: “No, but I—as prince of the army of Jehovah I have now come.” With that Joshua fell on his face to the earth and prostrated himself and said to him: “What is my lord saying to his servant?” 15*In turn the prince of the army of Jehovah said to Joshua: “Draw your sandals from off your feet, because the place on which you are standing is holy.” At once Joshua did so.

[ralittlefield]

it is too bad because he talks about Jesus being present in the Ot and the titles he had including this passage in Joshua

13*And it came about when Joshua happened to be by Jer′i‧cho that he proceeded to raise his eyes and look, and there there was a man standing in front of him with his drawn sword in his hand. So Joshua walked up to him and said to him: “Are you for us or for our adversaries?” 14*To this he said: “No, but I—as prince of the army of Jehovah I have now come.” With that Joshua fell on his face to the earth and prostrated himself and said to him: “What is my lord saying to his servant?” 15*In turn the prince of the army of Jehovah said to Joshua: “Draw your sandals from off your feet, because the place on which you are standing is holy.” At once Joshua did so.

I believe that there are appearances of Jesus in the Old Testament. I do not know if this is one or not. I would sooner think that this is an angel.

What makes you think it is Christ?

[Warrior4God]

I have looked at the greek in an interlinear and I agree with the KJV version. As DRS pointed out, the greek does intone something "taken by force" or "robbery." Where DRS is wrong is in not understanding that Christ thought it was not robbery to be equal with God (because he already deemed himself equal with God, because he knew he was/is God.)

I think "something to be grasped" is a little clumsy.

Ok

[Warrior4God]

Still, what is encircled? "all things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible..."

Not only are the thrones, principalities, etc encircled, but encircled by the all things ... all things is ALL THINGS.

Ok.

[Warrior4God]

I must be getting weary of all this and probably should place my energy towards study and prayer as we have reached a crossroad in this country.

Gods Will in my opinion is that this nation will decline to ready the end.

Could be wrong but I believe this nation is certainly not the apple of his eye.

May Gods Will be done and may we turn to God and not this country for our sufficiency.

[DispensationalJim]

May Gods Will be done and may we turn to God and not this country for our sufficiency.

AMEN, Warrior!

[DispensationalJim]

I got lost in that gigantic paragraph and gave up....

Ditto...

[drmilo]

I must be getting weary of all this and probably should place my energy towards study and prayer as we have reached a crossroad in this country.

Gods Will in my opinion is that this nation will decline to ready the end.

Could be wrong but I believe this nation is certainly not the apple of his eye.

May Gods Will be done and may we turn to God and not this country for our sufficiency.

Amen.

On this day, I weep for America.

(Or should i say Amerika?)

[DRS]

I believe that there are appearances of Jesus in the Old Testament. I do not know if this is one or not. I would sooner think that this is an angel.

What makes you think it is Christ?

If yiou read Martyrs' words above he explain it beautifully

[Warrior4God]

You wouldn't believe it if I showed you...


I believe the words Jesus spoke so show me.

[Warrior4God]

Still waiting.

[ralittlefield]

I believe the words Jesus spoke so show me.

“I tell you the truth,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I am!”

I and the Father are one.

Don’t you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?

[Reeder]

I believe the words Jesus spoke so show me.

You wouldn't believe they were Jesus' words.

[Fire Watch]

I have looked at the greek in an interlinear and I agree with the KJV version. As DRS pointed out, the greek does intone something "taken by force" or "robbery." Where DRS is wrong is in not understanding that Christ thought it was not robbery to be equal with God (because he already deemed himself equal with God, because he knew he was/is God.)

I think "something to be grasped" is a little clumsy.
I've posted this about 10 times so far in this thread..and around and around we go..

Here's the Greek.

hos huparcho en morphe theos hegeomai ou harpagmos einai isos theos

Literally translated..Who being in the form of /in the external appearance of God, thought/considered/deemed/accounted it not the act of seizing/robbery, to be equal, in quantity or quality with God.


(Jesus) being in the form of /in the external appearance of God, thought/considered/deemed/accounted it not(didnt consider it to be)the act of seizing/robbery, to be equal, in quantity or quality with God.

Jesus, being in the form of God, didn't consider it to be robbery, or an act of seizing, to be equal with God.

[RayMan]

You wouldn't believe they were Jesus' words.

Good point. ;)

[drmilo]

I've posted this about 10 times so far in this thread..and around and around we go..

Here's the Greek.

hos huparcho en morphe theos hegeomai ou harpagmos einai isos theos

Literally translated..Who being in the form of /in the external appearance of God, thought/considered/deemed/accounted it not the act of seizing/robbery, to be equal, in quantity or quality with God.


(Jesus) being in the form of /in the external appearance of God, thought/considered/deemed/accounted it not(didnt consider it to be)the act of seizing/robbery, to be equal, in quantity or quality with God.

Jesus, being in the form of God, didn't consider it to be robbery, or an act of seizing, to be equal with God.

Isn't that what I said?

[Warrior4God]

“I tell you the truth,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I am!”

I and the Father are one.

Don’t you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?

I have shown you at least 5 times where that "I AM" is not saying I am God .

The second has been shown to you also and as Jesus is one with God so are we when we are in fellowship.

The last one is a bad stretch because Jesus is not the Father so Jesus was not saying he was God because he is certainly not the Father.

Do you think that Jesus is the Father?

still waiting

[ralittlefield]

I have shown you at least 5 times where that "I AM" is not saying I am God .

The second has been shown to you also and as Jesus is one with God so are we when we are in fellowship.


still waiting

Like Reeder said, even when shown, you do not believe. You reject what Jesus says, and instead turn to the creeds of men.

Where is the Warrior who said this:

Amen and Amen...............

That is why I still find myself posting here.

Listen don't take this wrong Ya'll.

IMO eloquent corruption is so vividly visible in all the eloquent catch phrases and words that are so not eloquently in scripture but mans eloquent words.

Like..........trinity, incarnation, dual nature of Christ,that God co-equally exists in three persons,God the Son,...............in fact people felt they needed to write things like the nicean creed because so many thoughts and words people were using were not Biblical.


I have an Idea..............Just stick to Gods Word and forgets creeds of men that are all so eloquent.

I like letting the bible interpert itself.


Jesus made the statements that I posted above.

Thomas called Jesus "his God".

We are told in Phil that he was in the form of God and took the form of a man.

John calls him God.

We are told that he is the creator.

But you accept the teaching of men that these verses don't mean what they say. Go figure.

[Warrior4God]

I've posted this about 10 times so far in this thread..and around and around we go..

Here's the Greek.

hos huparcho en morphe theos hegeomai ou harpagmos einai isos theos

Literally translated..Who being in the form of /in the external appearance of God, thought/considered/deemed/accounted it not the act of seizing/robbery, to be equal, in quantity or quality with God.


(Jesus) being in the form of /in the external appearance of God, thought/considered/deemed/accounted it not(didnt consider it to be)the act of seizing/robbery, to be equal, in quantity or quality with God.

Jesus, being in the form of God, didn't consider it to be robbery, or an act of seizing, to be equal with God.

I think you are very wrong and heres why.

The verse prior to the verse in question says...........

Php 2:5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:


Do you think that God wants us to think we are equal to God?

I don't think so.

This is why your translation is wrong.

who, existing in the form of God, counted not the being on an equality with God a thing to be grasped,


You can post your OPINION 10 more times but still your view will NEVER fit the context.


Thats my opinion and mine fits the context where yours needs to skip a verse to fit.

[ralittlefield]

I think you are very wrong and heres why.

The verse prior to the verse in question says...........

Php 2:5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:


Do you think that God wants us to think we are equal to God?

I don't think so.

This is why your translation is wrong.

who, existing in the form of God, counted not the being on an equality with God a thing to be grasped,

The mind that we are to have is one of humillity.

That is what the passage is about. Christ was willing to give up what he had a right to. We are to be willing to do the same.

I am surprised that you do not see that.

[Warrior4God]

The mind that we are to have is one of humillity.

That is what the passage is about. Christ was willing to give up what he had a right to. We are to be willing to do the same.

I am surprised that you do not see that.

Gotta disagree .........

The verse we are discussing is within the context.

Php 2:5 Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus,
Php 2:6 who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped,






Who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped,

[Warrior4God]

The mind that we are to have is one of humillity.

That is what the passage is about. Christ was willing to give up what he had a right to. We are to be willing to do the same.

I am surprised that you do not see that.

I see that but I do not skip a verse to see that ,which you do.

[God is My Rock]

Like Reeder said, even when shown, you do not believe. You reject what Jesus says, and instead turn to the creeds of men.

Where is the Warrior who said this:



I like letting the bible interpert itself.


Jesus made the statements that I posted above.

Thomas called Jesus "his God".

We are told in Phil that he was in the form of God and took the form of a man.

John calls him God.

We are told that he is the creator.

But you accept the teaching of men that these verses don't mean what they say. Go figure.

Now re read all of the Gospel of John,

After Jesus has his big "before Abraham was I am" moment look at the entire rest of the gospel, and how his disciples act towards him, what they call him, etc....

The notion that he had just blatantly declared himself to be God does not wash.

There is no protest from his disciples. There is no clarification, there is no falling flat on my face in fear, there are no claims of blasphemy, etc....

At best there is the Thomas comment which the greek for god, has repeatedly and repeatedly been shown to have more than just "almighty GOD" as its definition.

But the ENTIRE rest of the gospel becomes unbelievable. The single most radical new concept of a triune God, which the then jewish community considered a blasphemous idea gets ZERO talk time by the entire Gospel (as well as the other 3).

[God is My Rock]

I see that but I do not skip a verse to see that ,which you do.

Hey my friend, how are you?

[DRS]

I've posted this about 10 times so far in this thread..and around and around we go..

Here's the Greek.

hos huparcho en morphe theos hegeomai ou harpagmos einai isos theos

Literally translated..Who being in the form of /in the external appearance of God, thought/considered/deemed/accounted it not the act of seizing/robbery, to be equal, in quantity or quality with God.


(Jesus) being in the form of /in the external appearance of God, thought/considered/deemed/accounted it not(didnt consider it to be)the act of seizing/robbery, to be equal, in quantity or quality with God.

Jesus, being in the form of God, didn't consider it to be robbery, or an act of seizing, to be equal with God.

see it is when the it is inserted it changes the verse

Who in form of God deemed not snatching equality with God

[ralittlefield]

Now re read all of the Gospel of John,

After Jesus has his big "before Abraham was I am" moment look at the entire rest of the gospel, and how his disciples act towards him, what they call him, etc....

The notion that he had just blatantly declared himself to be God does not wash.

There is no protest from his disciples. There is no clarification, there is no falling flat on my face in fear, there are no claims of blasphemy, etc....

At best there is the Thomas comment which the greek for god, has repeatedly and repeatedly been shown to have more than just "almighty GOD" as its definition.

But the ENTIRE rest of the gospel becomes unbelievable. The single most radical new concept of a triune God, which the then jewish community considered a blasphemous idea gets ZERO talk time by the entire Gospel (as well as the other 3).

John opens the gospel with a claim of deity for The Word.

Do you really believe that Thomas, a devote Jew, would call anyone except Jehovah "MY GOD"?

[ralittlefield]

Gotta disagree .........

The verse we are discussing is within the context.

Php 2:5 Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus,
Php 2:6 who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped,






Who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped,

If you do not believe that the context of that passage is humility, and that Christ is an example of humility because he was willing to give up something that he had a right to, then I, with all due respect, ask you to reread that passage with an open mind. I suggest you pay particular attention to these verses:

3 Do nothing out of selfish ambition or vain conceit, but in humility consider others better than yourselves. 4 Each of you should look not only to your own interests, but also to the interests of others.
5 Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus:

[Fire Watch]

Isn't that what I said?
lol..yep, me too..about a dozen times. This is thread of redundancy thread.

[drmilo]

I think you are very wrong and heres why.

The verse prior to the verse in question says...........

Php 2:5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:


Do you think that God wants us to think we are equal to God?

I don't think so.

This is why your translation is wrong.

who, existing in the form of God, counted not the being on an equality with God a thing to be grasped,


You can post your OPINION 10 more times but still your view will NEVER fit the context.


Thats my opinion and mine fits the context where yours needs to skip a verse to fit.


Just how does verse 5 not fit the context? "Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus:" You should have the same attitude as Jesus. "Who being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God, but instead, made himself of no reputation..." Even though he was great (in fact, the greatest being) he humbled himself to serve others. That is the context. It is saying that we need to be humble, just like Jesus was humble. It further says that Jesus is God, and it is not "robbery" for Jesus to claim equality with God, but instead of doing that, he humbled himself, and made himself into a servant.

[Warrior4God]

Hey my friend, how are you?

Doing pretty OK.

Trying to get people to keep verses in the context is hard to do when they don't want to.

Thats why God had his Word written so we could not err if we look at the whole picture.

Pulling a verse from here and there to form a doctrine gets many many denominations and thats what has happened.

To be honest if I was not in the minority I would have cause to worry.

Mat 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
Mat 7:14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

[ralittlefield]

Doing pretty OK.

Trying to get people to keep verses in the context is hard to do when they don't want to.

Thats why God had his Word written so we could not err if we look at the whole picture.

Pulling a verse from here and there to form a doctrine gets many many denominations and thats what has happened.

To be honest if I was not in the minority I would have cause to worry.

Mat 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
Mat 7:14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.


Warrior,

Perhaps I am not understanding what you are saying.

Please tell me what you think the context of this passage is:

If you have any encouragement from being united with Christ, if any comfort from his love, if any fellowship with the Spirit, if any tenderness and compassion, 2 then make my joy complete by being like-minded, having the same love, being one in spirit and purpose. 3 Do nothing out of selfish ambition or vain conceit, but in humility consider others better than yourselves. 4 Each of you should look not only to your own interests, but also to the interests of others.
5 Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus:

6 Who, being in very nature God,
did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,
7 but made himself nothing,
taking the very nature of a servant,
being made in human likeness.
8 And being found in appearance as a man,
he humbled himself
and became obedient to death—
even death on a cross!
9 Therefore God exalted him to the highest place
and gave him the name that is above every name,
10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.
Shining as Stars .

[Warrior4God]

Warrior,

Perhaps I am not understanding what you are saying.

Please tell me what you think the context of this passage is:

If you have any encouragement from being united with Christ, if any comfort from his love, if any fellowship with the Spirit, if any tenderness and compassion, 2 then make my joy complete by being like-minded, having the same love, being one in spirit and purpose. 3 Do nothing out of selfish ambition or vain conceit, but in humility consider others better than yourselves. 4 Each of you should look not only to your own interests, but also to the interests of others.
5 Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus:

6 Who, being in very nature God,
did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,
7 but made himself nothing,
taking the very nature of a servant,
being made in human likeness.
8 And being found in appearance as a man,
he humbled himself
and became obedient to death—
even death on a cross!
9 Therefore God exalted him to the highest place
and gave him the name that is above every name,
10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.
Shining as Stars .

IMO The way you and drmilo and FW see verse 6 does not fit the context and the way the verse is written in your post fits the context and what Jesus said in the gospels............

Jesus did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,


Jesus never spoke anything close to being equal with God or he would have sinned and then he could not be the messiah.


FW says he has posted 10 times about this and IMO he has been wrong 10 times and however many times you and drmilo post on it then IMO you are wrong as well.

I can't change what I believe is wrong and I was not the one that brought this verse up 10 times ............Ya'll did.


FW keeps posting the translation with the word "it" in the translation which changes the whole verse and there is no corresponding greek word for "it".

That is not how you translate with accuracy.............you can't add words just because you THINK it fits.

Thats fitting your belief into whats written and one little word changes everything.

[ralittlefield]

Doing pretty OK.

Trying to get people to keep verses in the context is hard to do when they don't want to.

Thats why God had his Word written so we could not err if we look at the whole picture.

Pulling a verse from here and there to form a doctrine gets many many denominations and thats what has happened.

To be honest if I was not in the minority I would have cause to worry.

Mat 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
Mat 7:14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

I would say that if being in the majority causes you to worry, then you have cause for concern.

There are far more people in this world who agree with you on the Trinity and deity of Christ, than who agree with me.

[ralittlefield]

IMO The way you and drmilo and FW see verse 6 does not fit the context and the way the verse is written in your post fits the context and what Jesus said in the gospels............

Jesus did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,


Jesus never spoke anything close to being equal with God or he would have sinned and then he could not be the messiah.


FW says he has posted 10 times about this and IMO he has been wrong 10 times and however many times you and drmilo post on it then IMO you are wrong as well.

I can't change what I believe is wrong and I was not the one that brought this verse up 10 times ............Ya'll did.

But you did not answer my question.

What do you see as the context?

[Warrior4God]

I would say that if being in the majority causes you to worry, then you have cause for concern.

There are far more people in this world who agree with you on the Trinity and deity of Christ, than who agree with me.

You know what I mean as it pertains to christians.

I did not and do not want to post the verses that deal with this so accurately as you will think its disrespectful and may get a ban.

I know a certain mod does not like me and would not take much so I must be careful.

My account has been messed up for a longggggggg time and asked at least twice for help with it and got nowhere.

I can't add color or size of fonts or insert a link within a word or even add a smiley unless I type the code in.

But its all good.


I have no problem with anyone on here and take things in stride but I know I must walk carefully

[ralittlefield]

IMO The way you and drmilo and FW see verse 6 does not fit the context and the way the verse is written in your post fits the context and what Jesus said in the gospels............

Jesus did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,


Jesus never spoke anything close to being equal with God or he would have sinned and then he could not be the messiah.


FW says he has posted 10 times about this and IMO he has been wrong 10 times and however many times you and drmilo post on it then IMO you are wrong as well.

I can't change what I believe is wrong and I was not the one that brought this verse up 10 times ............Ya'll did.


FW keeps posting the translation with the word "it" in the translation which changes the whole verse and there is no corresponding greek word for "it".

That is not how you translate with accuracy.............you can't add words just because you THINK it fits.

Thats fitting your belief into whats written and one little word changes everything.

Do you agree that this passage is teaching about humility?

[Warrior4God]

Do you agree that this passage is teaching about humility?

In part,yes,and so much more.

[DRS]

John opens the gospel with a claim of deity for The Word.

Do you really believe that Thomas, a devote Jew, would call anyone except Jehovah "MY GOD"?

When Jehovah told Moses he would be God to Aaron and pharoah does this make him the ultimate being?

In John there is a difference bettween the two instances of God in John 1:1

In John Jesus tells the women we worship what we know, and calls his God the God of Mary also he does not say he is the God of anyone

[pauljasonh]

The trinity is not biblical, you cannot find that word in the bible anywhere. But christianity has become, for centuries, the religion of false doctrines. The trinity is just another example of man's desires usurping the bible and good studying. Someone find the verse that says "God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit". I'll give you a million dollars to find it anywhere in scripture. The challenge is to find those words or the word trinity. I'll give 5 million dollars if you find the word trinity in scripture.

'These people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me. They worship me in vain; their teachings are but rules taught by men.' - Matt 15

[Warrior4God]

The trinity is not biblical, you cannot find that word in the bible anywhere. But christianity has become, for centuries, the religion of false doctrines. The trinity is just another example of man's desires usurping the bible and good studying. Someone find the verse that says "God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit". I'll give you a million dollars to find it anywhere in scripture. The challenge is to find those words or the word trinity. I'll give 5 million dollars if you find the word trinity in scripture.

'These people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me. They worship me in vain; their teachings are but rules taught by men.' - Matt 15

But.......but..........but..........

Awe heck, you win..........the trinity is NOT Biblical or scriptural.

That was easy.......time to start a new thread.

[ralittlefield]

When Jehovah told Moses he would be God to Aaron and pharoah does this make him the ultimate being?

In John there is a difference bettween the two instances of God in John 1:1

In John Jesus tells the women we worship what we know, and calls his God the God of Mary also he does not say he is the God of anyone

God never told Moses that he (Moses)would be God(Jehovah) to Aaron and pharaoh, and you know it.

Where did either Aaron or pharaoh ever acknowledge Moses as God. It never happened.


I believe that there is a huge difference in God telling Moses that He would make Moses a powerful person to pharaoh, and Thomas, a devote Jew, looking at Jesus and declaring that Jesus was his God.

He did not say that Jesus was a god. He said that Jesus was his God.

Thomas knew what he was saying, and the Holy Spirit inspired John to record it.

[ralittlefield]

The trinity is not biblical, you cannot find that word in the bible anywhere. But christianity has become, for centuries, the religion of false doctrines. The trinity is just another example of man's desires usurping the bible and good studying. Someone find the verse that says "God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit". I'll give you a million dollars to find it anywhere in scripture. The challenge is to find those words or the word trinity. I'll give 5 million dollars if you find the word trinity in scripture.

'These people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me. They worship me in vain; their teachings are but rules taught by men.' - Matt 15


Welcome to the forum!


Do you believe that every word that is not in the bible is "not biblical"? That would make a lot of words in our language not biblical.

[ralittlefield]

In part,yes,and so much more.

Please elaborate.

[God is My Rock]

John opens the gospel with a claim of deity for The Word.

Do you really believe that Thomas, a devote Jew, would call anyone except Jehovah "MY GOD"?

If that was what he said, probably not, but that is not what he said.

At least be honest, tell everyone here on this thread ALL of the possible defintions for the word theos.

We will start there

[God is My Rock]

Warrior,

Perhaps I am not understanding what you are saying.

Please tell me what you think the context of this passage is:

If you have any encouragement from being united with Christ, if any comfort from his love, if any fellowship with the Spirit, if any tenderness and compassion, 2 then make my joy complete by being like-minded, having the same love, being one in spirit and purpose. 3 Do nothing out of selfish ambition or vain conceit, but in humility consider others better than yourselves. 4 Each of you should look not only to your own interests, but also to the interests of others.
5 Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus:

6 Who, being in very nature God,
did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,
7 but made himself nothing,
taking the very nature of a servant,
being made in human likeness.
8 And being found in appearance as a man,
he humbled himself
and became obedient to death—
even death on a cross!
9 Therefore God exalted him to the highest place
and gave him the name that is above every name,
10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.
Shining as Stars .

Out of curiousity how does verse 9 fit into what you are saying?

9 Therefore God exalted him to the highest place
and gave him the name that is above every name,


God exalted the flesh?

God exalted the second person of the trinity?


This makes no sense whatsoever.......

[Warrior4God]

God never told Moses that he (Moses)would be God(Jehovah) to Aaron and pharaoh, and you know it.

Where did either Aaron or pharaoh ever acknowledge Moses as God. It never happened.


I believe that there is a huge difference in God telling Moses that He would make Moses a powerful person to pharaoh, and Thomas, a devote Jew, looking at Jesus and declaring that Jesus was his God.

He did not say that Jesus was a god. He said that Jesus was his God.

Thomas knew what he was saying, and the Holy Spirit inspired John to record it.

Oh brother.

God inspired Jesus to declare his subjection and that he was NOT equal to God in the same gospel.

Jesus even said that the works he did we can do also and greater works as well.

I wanna tell ya folks...........we ain't gonna do more then God.

Time for a little logic.

[ralittlefield]

In part,yes,and so much more.

I look forward to hearing what the context of this passage is.

[DispensationalJim]

Out of curiousity how does verse 9 fit into what you are saying?

9 Therefore God exalted him to the highest place
and gave him the name that is above every name,


God exalted the flesh?

God exalted the second person of the trinity?


This makes no sense whatsoever.......

Phil. 2:5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
Phil. 2:6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
Phil. 2:7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
Phil. 2:8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
Phil. 2:9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:

So there are the facts:
1. Jesus was IN THE FORM OF GOD
2. Jesus then MADE HIMSELF INTO A MAN.
3. Following the death (FOR OUR SINS), burial, and resurrection of THE MAN, JESUS, God the Father exalted Him to His previous position.

So where is the problem???

[DispensationalJim]

The trinity is not biblical, you cannot find that word in the bible anywhere. But christianity has become, for centuries, the religion of false doctrines. The trinity is just another example of man's desires usurping the bible and good studying. Someone find the verse that says "God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit". I'll give you a million dollars to find it anywhere in scripture. The challenge is to find those words or the word trinity. I'll give 5 million dollars if you find the word trinity in scripture.

'These people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me. They worship me in vain; their teachings are but rules taught by men.' - Matt 15

Here are just a couple of passages that are cloae enough for me:

• Heb. 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; ... 8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

• 1John 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. 8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.

I just quoted Phil. 2:5-9 showing Jesus to be God and John 1:1-3,14 also makes it quite clear as many others have already mentioned.

Of course, if you want to play the "that King James Bible is a bad translation" game, there is another thread for that: (http://forums.hannity.com/showthread.php?t=1082611)

As ralittlefield already mentioned, there are plenty of words and phrases that many use commonly as Biblical terms which are not in the Bible, including "Bible" or "biblical," "Christianity," "scriptural," "rapture" or "second coming," etc., etc...

[DRS]

Everything you posted has been shown to either be inserted or a matter of translation or mistranslation

There is nothing in the bible that questions the fact that Jehovah is the most high God

Now which one of these is Jehovah

Father Son or holy spirit

[DRS]

God never told Moses that he (Moses)would be God(Jehovah) to Aaron and pharaoh, and you know it.

Where did either Aaron or pharaoh ever acknowledge Moses as God. It never happened.


I believe that there is a huge difference in God telling Moses that He would make Moses a powerful person to pharaoh, and Thomas, a devote Jew, looking at Jesus and declaring that Jesus was his God.

He did not say that Jesus was a god. He said that Jesus was his God.

Thomas knew what he was saying, and the Holy Spirit inspired John to record it.


Jehovah never told Jesus he would be Jehovh

In reality looking at the greek he calls Jesus the god of him

Which the Almighty inspired Isaiah to prophecy would happen


Are you trying to say Jesus was not a powerful person given authority like Moses

[God is My Rock]

Phil. 2:5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
Phil. 2:6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
Phil. 2:7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
Phil. 2:8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
Phil. 2:9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:

So there are the facts:
1. Jesus was IN THE FORM OF GOD
2. Jesus then MADE HIMSELF INTO A MAN.
3. Following the death (FOR OUR SINS), burial, and resurrection of THE MAN, JESUS, God the Father exalted Him to His previous position.

So where is the problem???


The word "form" (greek "morphe")

1) the form by which a person or thing strikes the vision

2) external appearance





And according to Vine's:



The true meaning of morphe in the expression 'form of God' is confirmed by its recurrence in the corresponding phrase, 'form of a servant.' It is universally admitted that the two phrases are directly antithetical, and that 'form' must therefore have the same sense in both." *
[* From Gillford, "The Incarnation," pp. 16, 19, 39.]


Was Jesus literally a servant?

Was Jesus a man without complete knowledge of God?

Was Jesus a servant who did not have the full power of God?

Was Jesus a servant without the knowledge of God?


The answer is that Jesus took on the "form" of a servant, but was not literally a servant.

That was his appearance ..... - see defintion above

If he literally was a servant, then he would not have the ability to save anyone, let alone himself.

And applying the reasoning above, then just in the same way, Jesus was in the form of God, yet not literally God.

[DispensationalJim]

...
Was Jesus literally a servant?

Was Jesus a man without complete knowledge of God?

Was Jesus a servant who did not have the full power of God?

Was Jesus a servant without the knowledge of God?


The answer is that Jesus took on the "form" of a servant, but was not literally a servant.

That was his appearance ..... - see defintion above

If he literally was a servant, then he would not have the ability to save anyone, let alone himself.

And applying the reasoning above, then just in the same way, Jesus was in the form of God, yet not literally God.

That is strictly opinion... Vine's and yours.

You asked: Was Jesus literally a servant?
My response: Absolutely.
• Matt. 20:26 But it shall not be so among you: but whosoever will be great among you, let him be your minister;... 28 Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.
• Matt. 23:11 But he that is greatest among you shall be your servant.

• Mark 10:43 But so shall it not be among you: but whosoever will be great among you, shall be your minister: 44 And whosoever of you will be the chiefest, shall be servant of all. 45 For even the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.

• Rom. 15:8 Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers:
==========================

You asked: Was Jesus a man without complete knowledge of God?
My response: IMO, when Jesus, God the Son, the Creator of ALL things, made Himself into a "fetus" and placed Himself in the womb of Mary, He "limited" Himself as a "being" and did not have complete knowledge until He grew up.
• Luke 2:40 And the child (Jesus) grew, and waxed strong in spirit, filled with wisdom: and the grace of God was upon him.

============================

You asked: Was Jesus a servant who did not have the full power of God?
My response: Yes, until He grew up, the same as above...

============================

You asked: Was Jesus a servant without the knowledge of God?
My response: Yes, unil He grew up, just as above...

=============================


You wrote: The answer is that Jesus took on the "form" of a servant, but was not literally a servant.
That was his appearance ..... - see defintion above

My response: He was literally a minister and/or servant until He rose again and returned to His glory in Heaven.

=============================

You wrote: If he literally was a servant, then he would not have the ability to save anyone, let alone himself.
And applying the reasoning above, then just in the same way, Jesus was in the form of God, yet not literally God.[/QUOTE]

My response: IMO, that is not sound reasoning.

In order for God to die for our sins, He had to become a real man, since God cannot die.

As a man, He died and fulfilled the prohecies made of Him. including those of Isaiah 53.

[God is My Rock]

That is strictly opinion... Vine's and yours.

You asked: Was Jesus literally a servant?
My response: Absolutely.
• Matt. 20:26 But it shall not be so among you: but whosoever will be great among you, let him be your minister;... 28 Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.
• Matt. 23:11 But he that is greatest among you shall be your servant.

• Mark 10:43 But so shall it not be among you: but whosoever will be great among you, shall be your minister: 44 And whosoever of you will be the chiefest, shall be servant of all. 45 For even the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.

• Rom. 15:8 Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers:
==========================

You asked: Was Jesus a man without complete knowledge of God?
My response: IMO, when Jesus, God the Son, the Creator of ALL things, made Himself into a "fetus" and placed Himself in the womb of Mary, He "limited" Himself as a "being" and did not have complete knowledge until He grew up.
• Luke 2:40 And the child (Jesus) grew, and waxed strong in spirit, filled with wisdom: and the grace of God was upon him.

============================

You asked: Was Jesus a servant who did not have the full power of God?
My response: Yes, until He grew up, the same as above...

============================

You asked: Was Jesus a servant without the knowledge of God?
My response: Yes, unil He grew up, just as above...

=============================


You wrote: The answer is that Jesus took on the "form" of a servant, but was not literally a servant.
That was his appearance ..... - see defintion above

My response: He was literally a minister and/or servant until He rose again and returned to His glory in Heaven.

=============================

You wrote: If he literally was a servant, then he would not have the ability to save anyone, let alone himself.
And applying the reasoning above, then just in the same way, Jesus was in the form of God, yet not literally God

My response: IMO, that is not sound reasoning.

In order for God to die for our sins, He had to become a real man, since God cannot die.

As a man, He died and fulfilled the prohecies made of Him. including those of Isaiah 53.

My entire point you apparently missed.

Would you call anyone you know as being equal to Jesus while he was on earth?

I wouldn't.

Because he was not literally as insignificant as we are.

He just took on the form of insignificance.

[ralittlefield]

The word "form" (greek "morphe")

1) the form by which a person or thing strikes the vision

2) external appearance





And according to Vine's:



The true meaning of morphe in the expression 'form of God' is confirmed by its recurrence in the corresponding phrase, 'form of a servant.' It is universally admitted that the two phrases are directly antithetical, and that 'form' must therefore have the same sense in both." *
[* From Gillford, "The Incarnation," pp. 16, 19, 39.]


Was Jesus literally a servant?

Was Jesus a man without complete knowledge of God?

Was Jesus a servant who did not have the full power of God?

Was Jesus a servant without the knowledge of God?


The answer is that Jesus took on the "form" of a servant, but was not literally a servant.

That was his appearance ..... - see defintion above

If he literally was a servant, then he would not have the ability to save anyone, let alone himself.

And applying the reasoning above, then just in the same way, Jesus was in the form of God, yet not literally God.

Yes, Jesus was literally a servant. He came to serve us. One who serves is a servant. He had the attitude of a servant. That is what this passage tells. That does not mean that he was powerless. It also does not mean that He was not God. It in no way means that he could not accomplish the mission that he came for.

[ralittlefield]

In part,yes,and so much more.

Do you agree that in this passage Jesus is an example of humility?

If so, in what way? What does this passage say Jesus did that is an example of humility?

[ralittlefield]

My entire point you apparently missed.

Would you call anyone you know as being equal to Jesus while he was on earth?

I wouldn't.

Because he was not literally as insignificant as we are.

He just took on the form of insignificance.

Luke 2:52 tells us that Jesus grew in wisdom. So, in that sense, yes, I believe that there were people equal to Jesus while he was on earth.

[DispensationalJim]

My entire point you apparently missed.

Would you call anyone you know as being equal to Jesus while he was on earth?

I wouldn't.

Because he was not literally as insignificant as we are.

He just took on the form of insignificance.

No, Rock, I don't think I missed your point, but I think you may have missed mine.

Maybe I wasn't clear enough, so I'll try a different approach.

No one could ever be like Jesus, since he was The Creator of ALL things, was prophesied of all through the OT, was virgin born, lived a perfect life, and then DIED FOR OUR SINS, rose again the third day, and ascended up to Heaven to be our mediator.

But, I may disagree with many Trinitarians when I say that I do not believe Jesus was equal to God while He was here on the earth. Again, I believe He LIMITED HIMSELF while He was a man until after he resumed His position in Heaven. For instance, I believe He voluntarily gave up His "God the Son" characteristics such as omniscience, omnipotence, and omnipresence. In His final three years on earth, He showed some amazing powers, but they seemed to me to be a very limited display.

Yet, didn't He say this to His apostles?
• John 14:12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

Does that mean that they were greater than Jesus?

Not to my thinking. IMO, He was referring mostly to the books they would write through the inspiration of His Holy Spirit which would tell THE ENTIRE WORLD all about His life, death, and resurrection.

[Michelle]

The Bible doesn't specifically use the word Trinity, but it really doesn't have to since it has done much more to define the terms we have summed up with the word, Trinity.

Omnipotent -
1.almighty or infinite in power, as God.2.having very great or unlimited authority or power.
God defines this as Himself in the first book of Genesis to the last book of Revelations as the Creator of all things.

Transcendent -
1. Theology. (of the Deity) transcending the universe, time, etc.
God defines being able to interact with the world, which we come to understand as a spiritual influence within it. God sends forth his spirit in numerous examples within the Bible.

Immanent -
1. Theology. (of the Deity) indwelling the universe, time, etc.
2. remaining within; indwelling; inherent
3. Philosophy. (of a mental act) taking place within the mind of the subject and having no effect outside of it.
God describes Jesus as His son, who came into the world and dwelt among us.

So, you have God the Father, who stands outside of time, before time, existing in the perpetual now, unbound by the constraints of the universe.

Then you have God the Holy Spirit, who is able to transcend the limitations of time and interact with any phase of creation.

Finally, God the Son, who became man and dwelled within a human body, becoming both God and man, in the flesh. Jesus is an ordinary human with a supernatural mind and abilities, which is God Himself.

That's how I've always been taught the Trinity. I don't understand how there are no examples of this in the Bible. Just because it doesn't literally use the word Trinity, doesn't mean, at least to me, that these aren't the truths of the Christian faith. It very much is what Christians believe.

[ralittlefield]

Do you agree that in this passage Jesus is an example of humility?

If so, in what way? What does this passage say Jesus did that is an example of humility?

I'm still hoping that Warrior will address this.

[ralittlefield]

The word "form" (greek "morphe")

1) the form by which a person or thing strikes the vision

2) external appearance





And according to Vine's:



The true meaning of morphe in the expression 'form of God' is confirmed by its recurrence in the corresponding phrase, 'form of a servant.' It is universally admitted that the two phrases are directly antithetical, and that 'form' must therefore have the same sense in both." *
[* From Gillford, "The Incarnation," pp. 16, 19, 39.]


Was Jesus literally a servant?

Was Jesus a man without complete knowledge of God?

Was Jesus a servant who did not have the full power of God?

Was Jesus a servant without the knowledge of God?


The answer is that Jesus took on the "form" of a servant, but was not literally a servant.

That was his appearance ..... - see defintion above

If he literally was a servant, then he would not have the ability to save anyone, let alone himself.

And applying the reasoning above, then just in the same way, Jesus was in the form of God, yet not literally God.

Jesus came to serve mankind, so yes he was literally a servant.

By your logic above, we can conclude from the passage in Phil 2, that he is also literally God.

That is what makes Jesus an example of humility in this passage.

He lowered himself to serve us.

From God to servant. What humility!

[Angryamerican]

Jesus came to serve mankind, so yes he was literally a servant.

By your logic above, we can conclude from the passage in Phil 2, that he is also literally God.

That is what makes Jesus an example of humility in this passage.

He lowered himself to serve us.

From God to servant. What humility!

What is the purpose of angels then ? with your reasoning.

[Angryamerican]

Jesus came to serve mankind, so yes he was literally a servant.

By your logic above, we can conclude from the passage in Phil 2, that he is also literally God.

That is what makes Jesus an example of humility in this passage.

He lowered himself to serve us.

From God to servant. What humility!

I have actually done a study on the word servant in the bible, not once, have i ever seen the word tied, to God being a servant.

If Jesus was God ,how come God was never referred to as a servant ?

[Mikko]

Enough already!!!! Believe in the trinity, or don't believe in it. It's an anthropogenic doctrine anyway. Believe what you want; God doesn't give a flip. Put this thread to rest-the topic has been beaten to death. :mad::)

[Michelle]

Enough already!!!! Believe in the trinity, or don't believe in it. It's an anthropogenic doctrine anyway. Believe what you want; God doesn't give a flip. Put this thread to rest-the topic has been beaten to death. :mad::)

Or you could just skip this thread and stop speaking for God.

[ralittlefield]

What is the purpose of angels then ? with your reasoning.

Angels are God's messengers.

They certainly are not the savior of mankind.

Christ is the savior of mankind. That is the service that he provided. That make him a servant. That also is in agreement with Phil 2.

[ralittlefield]

I have actually done a study on the word servant in the bible, not once, have i ever seen the word tied, to God being a servant.

If Jesus was God ,how come God was never referred to as a servant ?

He was. It is in Phil 2. That is what this whole exchange has been about.

[terri910]

Enough already!!!!
You have the choice to not open the thread, Mikko. When you make that decision -- voila!!! -- it actually IS "enough already."

[Angryamerican]

He was. It is in Phil 2. That is what this whole exchange has been about.

Was God considered a servant when he delivered Israel from egypt ?

Who serves who ?
Exo 32:13 Remember Abraham, Isaac, and Israel, Your servants, to whom You swore by Your own self, and said to them, I will multiply your seed as the stars of the heavens, and all this land that I have spoken of will I give to your seed, and they shall inherit it forever.

Was not God a saviour then ?

[DRS]

Angels are God's messengers.

They certainly are not the savior of mankind.

Christ is the savior of mankind. That is the service that he provided. That make him a servant. That also is in agreement with Phil 2.

You know why there are so many holes in the trinity doctrine, first off translation issues

Secondly OT

Moses and judges and angels called God

Judges called saviours

Jehovah alone is Most High, there is only one Jehovah and Jesus is not Jehovah

[ralittlefield]

You know why there are so many holes in the trinity doctrine, first off translation issues

Secondly OT

Moses and judges and angels called God

Judges called saviours

Jehovah alone is Most High, there is only one Jehovah and Jesus is not Jehovah

Why do you keep bringing up this old argument? Just to keep the thread alive?

There is a big difference in being called a god, and being God. In fact 1 Cor 8:5 addresses this very thing.

Mosses, judges, and angels are never attributed with qualities of Jehovah, but Jesus is. Jesus is the Creator, Giver of life, Judge, and can forgive sin.

Others are so-called gods, but what have they done that can be compared to Jesus?

When did anyone call Mosses, a judge or an angel his God? Thomas called Jesus exactly that. He said that Jesus was his God.

[DRS]

Why do you keep bringing up this old argument? Just to keep the thread alive?

There is a big difference in being called a god, and being God. In fact 1 Cor 8:5 addresses this very thing.

Mosses, judges, and angels are never attributed with qualities of Jehovah, but Jesus is. Jesus is the Creator, Giver of life, Judge, and can forgive sin.

Others are so-called gods, but what have they done that can be compared to Jesus?

When did anyone call Mosses, a judge or an angel his God? Thomas called Jesus exactly that. He said that Jesus was his God.


Who gave Jesus the authority to judge?

Seeing as his disciples were told they would judge with him does this make them God too?


Thomas said the God of him, just as Moses was made God to pharoah and Aaron

Seeing as things were created through Jesus then much like when Eve said she created a man with the help of Jehovah

[ralittlefield]

Who gave Jesus the authority to judge?

Seeing as his disciples were told they would judge with him does this make them God too?


Thomas said the God of him, just as Moses was made God to pharoah and Aaron

Seeing as things were created through Jesus then much like when Eve said she created a man with the help of Jehovah


My point is that there is no comparison between the people you mention and Jesus. Do you believe that you have made a real point here? Do you really believe that Eve giving birth is a real comparison to Jesus' creation of the universe?

You persist in bringing this "other god" thing up, and I really do not get your point. There really is no comparison between these other "so-called gods" and Jesus.

[DRS]

My point is that there is no comparison between the people you mention and Jesus. Do you believe that you have made a real point here? Do you really believe that Eve giving birth is a real comparison to Jesus' creation of the universe?

You persist in bringing this "other god" thing up, and I really do not get your point. There really is no comparison between these other "so-called gods" and Jesus.

For serioubible readers the prefigurements in the OT hold a lot of weight

Even your worship of Jesus is prefigured in the idolatry of the copper serpant

The attempts to stone Jesus and even his death were seen in the prophets of the OT

[God is My Rock]

My point is that there is no comparison between the people you mention and Jesus. Do you believe that you have made a real point here? Do you really believe that Eve giving birth is a real comparison to Jesus' creation of the universe?

You persist in bringing this "other god" thing up, and I really do not get your point. There really is no comparison between these other "so-called gods" and Jesus.

Unless I somehow missed it, I am still waiting for you to post all of the possible definitions for the greek word theos. If I did miss it, my apologies.

If I didn't please humor me and all others.

I just want to see if you can even type the other definitions, or if your denial extends that far.

[ralittlefield]

Unless I somehow missed it, I am still waiting for you to post all of the possible definitions for the greek word theos. If I did miss it, my apologies.

If I didn't please humor me and all others.

I just want to see if you can even type the other definitions, or if your denial extends that far.



I have never argued that theos must mean only Jehovah.

I realize that it has broader meanings.

You may be trained in the Greek language, but I am not. So I will admit that I likely do not know all of the possible definitions for the Greek word theos.

If you would like to see them typed out, please do so. Then pick the one that you feel fits Jesus.

My point is that Jesus' actions and attributes put him in a much different class of being than any other being called a god.

Jesus is not an angel, because he created angels.

We know that Jesus was not always a man because we are told that he became flesh, became a man.

Thomas called Jesus his God. A remarkable statement indeed from a devote Jew!

Jesus is eternal. He was with God in the beginning.

[Tucson Jim]

You know why there are so many holes in the trinity doctrine . . .


So then, you admit it is a "Holy" doctrine. I agree.

[Tucson Jim]

Why do you keep bringing up this old argument? Just to keep the thread alive?

There is a big difference in being called a god, and being God. In fact 1 Cor 8:5 addresses this very thing.

Mosses, judges, and angels are never attributed with qualities of Jehovah, but Jesus is. Jesus is the Creator, Giver of life, Judge, and can forgive sin.

Others are so-called gods, but what have they done that can be compared to Jesus?

When did anyone call Mosses, a judge or an angel his God? Thomas called Jesus exactly that. He said that Jesus was his God.

Amen Brother - Preach it!

[Tucson Jim]

My point is that there is no comparison between the people you mention and Jesus. Do you believe that you have made a real point here? Do you really believe that Eve giving birth is a real comparison to Jesus' creation of the universe?

You persist in bringing this "other god" thing up, and I really do not get your point. There really is no comparison between these other "so-called gods" and Jesus.

Yes . . . I cannot recall ever getting a straight answer on how Jesus could be "a god" but not be a false god when there's only one true God - outside of Trinity and Oneness.

[God is My Rock]

I have never argued that theos must mean only Jehovah.

I realize that it has broader meanings.

You may be trained in the Greek language, but I am not. So I will admit that I likely do not know all of the possible definitions for the Greek word theos.

If you would like to see them typed out, please do so. Then pick the one that you feel fits Jesus.

My point is that Jesus' actions and attributes put him in a much different class of being than any other being called a god.

Jesus is not an angel, because he created angels.

We know that Jesus was not always a man because we are told that he became flesh, became a man.

Thomas called Jesus his God. A remarkable statement indeed from a devote Jew!

Jesus is eternal. He was with God in the beginning.

Actually Thomas knew the story that Jesus had repeatedly told him.

Matthew 28:18
Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.

Luke 4:6
And he said to him, "I will give you all their authority and splendor, for it has been given to me, and I can give it to anyone I want to.

John 17:2
"Father, the time has come. Glorify your Son, that your Son may glorify you. For you granted him authority over all people that he might give eternal life to all those you have given him.



And also



John 13:13

13"You call me 'Teacher' and 'Lord,' and rightly so, for that is what I am.


Thus

My Lord and My God.


My Lord -- because as Jesus said, that is what he was, and here Thomas is acknowledging the truth of Jesus' word.

My God -- giving glory to God, and again acknowledging that what Jesus' had claimed about God was true, and could be trusted.

Thomas' faith in God, through the words and teaching of Christ had just been realized. They were not mere fantasy.


And lastly while it does not address Thomas directly, Jesus then tells Mary

John 20:17

'I am returning to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.' "



Jesus' words make absolutely no sense if we use an improper application of the word theos, upon Jesus.

[Tucson Jim]

Actually Thomas knew the story that Jesus had repeatedly told him.

Matthew 28:18
Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.

Luke 4:6
And he said to him, "I will give you all their authority and splendor, for it has been given to me, and I can give it to anyone I want to.

John 17:2
"Father, the time has come. Glorify your Son, that your Son may glorify you. For you granted him authority over all people that he might give eternal life to all those you have given him.



And also



John 13:13

13"You call me 'Teacher' and 'Lord,' and rightly so, for that is what I am.


Thus

My Lord and My God.


My Lord -- because as Jesus said, that is what he was, and here Thomas is acknowledging the truth of Jesus' word.

My God -- giving glory to God, and again acknowledging that what Jesus' had claimed about God was true, and could be trusted.

Thomas' faith in God, through the words and teaching of Christ had just been realized. They were not mere fantasy.


And lastly while it does not address Thomas directly, Jesus then tells Mary

John 20:17

'I am returning to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.' "



Jesus' words make absolutely no sense if we use an improper application of the word theos, upon Jesus.

See "Incarnation", "economy of the Trinity", didtinction between "nature" and "role".

We've been through this many times.

But good to see ya GMR!

[Tucson Jim]

The Bible doesn't specifically use the word Trinity, but it really doesn't have to since it has done much more to define the terms we have summed up with the word, Trinity.

Omnipotent -
1.almighty or infinite in power, as God.2.having very great or unlimited authority or power.
God defines this as Himself in the first book of Genesis to the last book of Revelations as the Creator of all things.

Transcendent -
1. Theology. (of the Deity) transcending the universe, time, etc.
God defines being able to interact with the world, which we come to understand as a spiritual influence within it. God sends forth his spirit in numerous examples within the Bible.

Immanent -
1. Theology. (of the Deity) indwelling the universe, time, etc.
2. remaining within; indwelling; inherent
3. Philosophy. (of a mental act) taking place within the mind of the subject and having no effect outside of it.
God describes Jesus as His son, who came into the world and dwelt among us.

So, you have God the Father, who stands outside of time, before time, existing in the perpetual now, unbound by the constraints of the universe.

Then you have God the Holy Spirit, who is able to transcend the limitations of time and interact with any phase of creation.

Finally, God the Son, who became man and dwelled within a human body, becoming both God and man, in the flesh. Jesus is an ordinary human with a supernatural mind and abilities, which is God Himself.

That's how I've always been taught the Trinity. I don't understand how there are no examples of this in the Bible. Just because it doesn't literally use the word Trinity, doesn't mean, at least to me, that these aren't the truths of the Christian faith. It very much is what Christians believe.

Excellent Michelle! :clap:

[Tucson Jim]

Enough already!!!! Believe in the trinity, or don't believe in it. It's an anthropogenic doctrine anyway. Believe what you want; God doesn't give a flip. Put this thread to rest-the topic has been beaten to death. :mad::)

:)) Mikko - you KNOW this is just going to make us want to keep on and on and on . . . :twisted:

[Tucson Jim]

Angels are God's messengers.

They certainly are not the savior of mankind.

Christ is the savior of mankind. That is the service that he provided. That make him a servant. That also is in agreement with Phil 2.

So logical and reasonable . . . but I fear you waste your breath (or fingertips!) . . .

[Tucson Jim]

Everything you posted has been shown to either be inserted or a matter of translation or mistranslation

There is nothing in the bible that questions the fact that Jehovah is the most high God

Now which one of these is Jehovah

Father Son or holy spirit

Each is Jehovah.

But then, you already knew that, didn't you DRS?

[Tucson Jim]

But as Paul also showed all things does not means all things, for instance all things are submitted to Jesus but God is not subject to Jesus.

All things does mean all things in this case, since the point is reiterated in John 1:3 so it cannot be twisted:

"And without Him was nothing made that has been made."

Jesus made "all things" and . . . "No thing" was made without Jesus.

Isn't it great the way the Bible guards against assigning arbitrary meanings to important passages such as this?

[Tucson Jim]

Jesus by his faith made it possible for God to raise him up, just the faith of the women made it possible for her to be healed

It was prophesied Jehovah would raise him and He did

Too bad you assume there are three persons who are Almighty God and have to impose that on scripture even though it ends up contradicting all prophecy

Too bad you assume the teachings of men supersede the plain words of scripture.

[Tucson Jim]

You are right, if the trinity is true and Biblical, then it should appear consistently throughout the Bible. The fact is, it does. The concept of the trinity is all thoughout the Bible even though you won't find the word "Trinity" used. Call it whatever you want, it is the concept that matters. Hope this helps.

Indded it does! Thank you!

[Tucson Jim]

The deity of Christ has been given a lot of attention in this thread, as it should, but the discussion of the Holy Spirit has been scant.

What does the bible say about the Holy Spirit?

First, the bible presents Him as a person, not just an influence or force from God.

Second, the bible presents Him as deity, not just a mere person.

Thoughts?

If the Deity of Christ is rejected, I don't see the point.

[Tucson Jim]

Agreed.

To me, this event show's John God. The Father's voice is present, yet the Father is invisible; the Spirit is present, descending from heaven (like a dove); and the Son is present. To me, this is God revealing his triune self to John, that he may know that he must decrease as Jesus increases.

That's what it means to me too drmilo.

[Warrior4God]

So then, you admit it is a "Holy" doctrine. I agree.

Hey Tjim where ya been?

Good to see you............had been worried a bit and have been praying for you.

The fiesty and the hardheaded thread for believers has the one who holds the title of most harheadedness is back.

Welcome back my brother in Christ who is our risen Lord and returning Saviour.

[Warrior4God]

I'm still hoping that Warrior will address this.

Not sure what you wish me to adress.

As Gods Son ,Jesus ,IMO, had every right to place himself above others but humbled himself and served rather then be served.

He did not look upon what his needs were but looked to meet the needs of those around him.


The whole passage of Philippians is pointing at what we should think and Jesus was that example of how we should think and walk.

The passage is distorted by many to make the subject be about God becoming man which is NOT what its about when all the context of the book is taken into account.


The way Jesus walked is WHY God exalted Jesus.

If Jesus were God then he could not be exalted.

How could you be any more exalted then God?

I can't believe how the beauty of the passage is turned into a whole different theme then is so vivid and clear in the passage.


I wish you could read whats written there and not inject your doctrine into it to try to prove something that the passage is not AT ALL doing or about.


Php 1:10 That ye may approve things that are excellent; that ye may be sincere and without offence till the day of Christ;
Php 1:11 Being filled with the fruits of righteousness, which are by Jesus Christ, unto the glory and praise of God.

same book..........staying in context.

Who gets the glory and praise?

God.............not Jesus.


Shall we look into praise and where we praise God and where we praise Jesus?

Post the verses where we are to praise Jesus and why.


We can look at glory after that if you wish.....but lets look at praise first.

Have never looked at this before so I am looking forward to what is shown in scripture.

[Warrior4God]

After the blind man recieved sight he praised God (not Jesus)


Luk 18:43 And immediately he received his sight, and followed him, glorifying God: and all the people, when they saw it, gave praise unto God.

He followed Jesus but praised God.


1Co 4:5 Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God.



Eph 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
Eph 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
Eph 1:6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

Heb 13:15 By him therefore let us offer the sacrifice of praise to God continually, that is, the fruit of our lips giving thanks to his name.

Seems to be a clear and accurate pattern of praise to God.

Still studying this though.

There may be praise to Jesus as well but have found nothing yet.

[Warrior4God]

The one true God sent Jesus.


Joh 7:28 Then cried Jesus in the temple as he taught, saying, Ye both know me, and ye know whence I am: and I am not come of myself, but he that sent me is true, whom ye know not.


Joh 7:29 But I know him: for I am from him, and he hath sent me.

Joh 8:18 I am one that bear witness of myself, and the Father that sent me beareth witness of me.

Joh 8:26 I have many things to say and to judge of you: but he that sent me is true; and I speak to the world those things which I have heard of him.


Joh 8:29 And he that sent me is with me: the Father hath not left me alone; for I do always those things that please him.

Joh 8:42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.


Joh 9:4 I must work the works of him that sent me, while it is day: the night cometh, when no man can work.

Joh 12:44 Jesus cried and said, He that believeth on me, believeth not on me, but on him that sent me.


Joh 12:49 For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.

Looks like another pattern here as well,but,lets continuue..........

Joh 13:16 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord; neither he that is sent greater than he that sent him.

Ouch for the Jesus is God crowd..........but lets continue...........


Joh 14:24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.

Joh 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

Jesus spoke by revelation from God and I believe there can be no doubt that Christ has a God and therefore the God who sent him is the one true God and Jesus did his will.


Thank God Jesus knew his place (which was not equal to God).........I wish men who made doctrines contrary to what Jesus knew would see that Jesus knew more then they do on the matter.

[Tucson Jim]

Hey Tjim where ya been?

Good to see you............had been worried a bit and have been praying for you.

The fiesty and the hardheaded thread for believers has the one who holds the title of most harheadedness is back.

Welcome back my brother in Christ who is our risen Lord and returning Saviour.

Humble thanks for your prayers Brother - they are much coveted, appreciated and needed!

I have been totally slammed at work, been working 7 days a week, often until the wee hours. I am perpetually behind, exhausted, upset, hence my absence from the RF. It's slowing down a little now, so hopefully the crunch is over.

As for hardheadedness, I appreciate the compliment, but must defer to the true Champion in that area - the Warrior4God!

I see the thread rumbles on, with the same arguments over and over. It begins to seem possible that we could actually argue this for all eternity.

Anyway, thank you again for the warm welcome my brother and friend.

[DispensationalJim]

Humble thanks for your prayers Brother - they are much coveted, appreciated and needed!

I have been totally slammed at work, been working 7 days a week, often until the wee hours. I am perpetually behind, exhausted, upset, hence my absence from the RF. It's slowing down a little now, so hopefully the crunch is over.

As for hardheadedness, I appreciate the compliment, but must defer to the true Champion in that area - the Warrior4God!

I see the thread rumbles on, with the same arguments over and over. It begins to seem possible that we could actually argue this for all eternity.

Anyway, thank you again for the warm welcome my brother and friend.

I actually agree with Warrior about being concerned about your absence on this thread.

So glad you're back, T-Jim. Hope the "crunch" is over for you, too.

Of course, I agree with you, T-Jim, about who wins the most hard-headed award. (ooops, where did the winking smiley go?)

[HardHammer]

Enough already!!!! Believe in the trinity, or don't believe in it. It's an anthropogenic doctrine anyway. Believe what you want; God doesn't give a flip. Put this thread to rest-the topic has been beaten to death. :mad::)

Spoken like a true liberalistic secular progressive. :clap:

[Warrior4God]

Humble thanks for your prayers Brother - they are much coveted, appreciated and needed!

I have been totally slammed at work, been working 7 days a week, often until the wee hours. I am perpetually behind, exhausted, upset, hence my absence from the RF. It's slowing down a little now, so hopefully the crunch is over.

As for hardheadedness, I appreciate the compliment, but must defer to the true Champion in that area - the Warrior4God!

I see the thread rumbles on, with the same arguments over and over. It begins to seem possible that we could actually argue this for all eternity.

Anyway, thank you again for the warm welcome my brother and friend.

I will continue to pray for your strength and peace while you work.


What do you do for work?

[Tucson Jim]

I will continue to pray for your strength and peace while you work.


What do you do for work?

I am an auditor for medical facilities. Contract work - and we suddenly have a whole lotta contracts!

Good for business - bad for sanity, health, home life, etc.

[ralittlefield]

I am an auditor for medical facilities. Contract work - and we suddenly have a whole lotta contracts!

Good for business - bad for sanity, health, home life, etc.

We sure are glad to see you back!

I am glad your bussiness is doing well, butI do not envy your schedule. I hope that it is temporary.

Welcome back and do take care of yourself!

[DRS]

Yes . . . I cannot recall ever getting a straight answer on how Jesus could be "a god" but not be a false god when there's only one true God - outside of Trinity and Oneness.

Or maybe you do not understand the usuage of the word god, since it is also used on Moses, judges in Israel and angels

[DRS]

Too bad you assume the teachings of men supersede the plain words of scripture.

Show me that plan scripture that says there are three persons that are Almighty God

There are scriptures that plainly state Jehovah alone is Most High, and Jehovah is one

[DRS]

All things does mean all things in this case, since the point is reiterated in John 1:3 so it cannot be twisted:

"And without Him was nothing made that has been made."

Jesus made "all things" and . . . "No thing" was made without Jesus.

Isn't it great the way the Bible guards against assigning arbitrary meanings to important passages such as this?

Did Jesus create you or did your parents procreate you?

3Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made

Interesting the NIV says through him, which conincides nicely with alms 8;22-31 whcih after showing his creation which concides with his being called the beginning of creation has him helping in creation

[ralittlefield]

Did Jesus create you or did your parents procreate you?

3Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made

Interesting the NIV says through him, which conincides nicely with alms 8;22-31 whcih after showing his creation which concides with his being called the beginning of creation has him helping in creation


Please try to say on subject.

This exchange is in reference to Col 1 and the point that Jesus created all things including angels.

All things, in this passage, does in fact mean ALL THINGS which includes angels. Therefore Jesus is not an angel.

[DRS]

Please try to say on subject.

This exchange is in reference to Col 1 and the point that Jesus created all things including angels.

All things, in this passage, does in fact mean ALL THINGS which includes angels. Therefore Jesus is not an angel.

It is on subject, the bible from beginning to end does not change in message and the the one and only Almighty is the same from beginning to end

Others being referred to as gods is the same beginning to end

[ralittlefield]

It is on subject, the bible from beginning to end does not change in message and the the one and only Almighty is the same from beginning to end

Others being referred to as gods is the same beginning to end

Okay, let's narrow it a little to Col 1, and what that verse teaches about what Jesus created and whether his creation included angels.

Do you believe that passage indicates that Jesus created angels?

If not, on what basis do you exclude them?

You may want to consider John 1:3 as you ponder this.

[DispensationalJim]

It is on subject, the bible from beginning to end does not change in message and the the one and only Almighty is the same from beginning to end

Others being referred to as gods is the same beginning to end

Please allow me to take exception to your statement, DRS.

I think we all should be able to agree that God has changed His "program" many times throughout His Word. I would call them "dispensations."

Of course, God's love and faithfulness have never changed, but IMO He has not given out the exact same "message" all throughout the Scriptures.

In the OT, the "gospel" was not that "Christ died for our sins." You could say that the prophecies foretold of a coming "Messiah" but IMO Israel did not understand the entire "story" there. Even when Christ walked the earth, the twelve did not understand that Christ would die and rise again, let alone that He would died for their sins.
• Luke 18:31 Then he took unto him the twelve, and said unto them, Behold, we go up to Jerusalem, and all things that are written by the prophets concerning the Son of man shall be accomplished. 32 For he shall be delivered unto the Gentiles, and shall be mocked, and spitefully entreated, and spitted on: 33 And they shall scourge him, and put him to death: and the third day he shall rise again. 34 And they understood none of these things: and this saying was hid from them, neither knew they the things which were spoken.

The good news for Adam and Eve was found in Gen. 3:15, but just how well they understood that prophecy is not clear to me.
• Gen. 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

What was Noah's "gospel"?
• Gen. 6:8 But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD. ...
• Gen. 7:1 And the LORD said unto Noah, Come thou and all thy house into the ark; for thee have I seen righteous before me in this generation.

But, did Noah know that "Christ died for his sins"? I don't think so.

We could go through all the various "dispensations" and see different messages given by God in each special circumstance. Israel was given circumcision, animal sacrifices, the Ark of the Covenant, etc., etc... In fact, our Jewish friends here on Hannity have mentioned many times that they were given 613 Commandments, not just the famous Ten.

=========================

Many of you know that I believe there were at least two gospels given in the NT, so I won't bother going through that concept here.

So, DRS, please tell us exactly which one single "message" you feel is found from the beginning to the end of the Scriptures. Remember, I already mentioned that God's love and faithfulness are found consistently throughout, but IMO that love and faithfulness have been extended in many different ways.

[Warrior4God]

I think we all should be able to agree that God has changed His "program" many times throughout His Word. I would call them "dispensations."




DJim I think the whole "program" for God was from the beginning all about Jesus and what will be at the end.........everything was done to that end and that end will be Gods Will as it was from the beginning.

Different administrations to accomplish the goal.


Eph 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ:
Eph 1:4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blemish before him in love:
Eph 1:5 having foreordained us unto adoption as sons through Jesus Christ unto himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
Eph 1:6 to the praise of the glory of his grace, which he freely bestowed on us in the Beloved:
Eph 1:7 in whom we have our redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace,
Eph 1:8 which he made to abound toward us in all wisdom and prudence,
Eph 1:9 making known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he purposed in him
Eph 1:10 unto a dispensation of the fulness of the times, to sum up all things in Christ, the things in the heavens, and the things upon the earth; in him, I say,
Eph 1:11 in whom also we were made a heritage, having been foreordained according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his will;
Eph 1:12 to the end that we should be unto the praise of his glory, we who had before hoped in Christ:

[tracifish]

I have requested for this thread to be "stickied". If you would like this to be a sticky thread, please add your input over here: http://forums.hannity.com/showthread.php?p=42768461#post42768461

[terri910]

No point in it, IMO.

The repeated postings keep it on the first page.

[DispensationalJim]

DJim I think the whole "program" for God was from the beginning all about Jesus and what will be at the end.........everything was done to that end and that end will be Gods Will as it was from the beginning.

Different administrations to accomplish the goal.


Eph 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ:
Eph 1:4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blemish before him in love:
Eph 1:5 having foreordained us unto adoption as sons through Jesus Christ unto himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
Eph 1:6 to the praise of the glory of his grace, which he freely bestowed on us in the Beloved:
Eph 1:7 in whom we have our redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace,
Eph 1:8 which he made to abound toward us in all wisdom and prudence,
Eph 1:9 making known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he purposed in him
Eph 1:10 unto a dispensation of the fulness of the times, to sum up all things in Christ, the things in the heavens, and the things upon the earth; in him, I say,
Eph 1:11 in whom also we were made a heritage, having been foreordained according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his will;
Eph 1:12 to the end that we should be unto the praise of his glory, we who had before hoped in Christ:

I think you put that nicely, Warrior...

Most theologians consider the definition of a dispensation to be an administration, so to that "end", I agree.

[DispensationalJim]

I have requested for this thread to be "stickied". If you would like this to be a sticky thread, please add your input over here: http://forums.hannity.com/showthread.php?p=42768461#post42768461

It might be a good idea, traci, but I don't know what a "sticky thread" is... :confused:

I keep this thread (and a few others) in my "favorites" group, so its always there whenever I want to check on it.

Glad to have you showing such interest in it, though. :)

[Tucson Jim]

We sure are glad to see you back!

I am glad your bussiness is doing well, butI do not envy your schedule. I hope that it is temporary.

Welcome back and do take care of yourself!

Thanks ralittlefield! I'm "kinda back" for now. Hopefully it will ease up soon and I can be "all back". I miss you guys! (and Gals!)

[Tucson Jim]

Or maybe you do not understand the usuage of the word god, since it is also used on Moses, judges in Israel and angels

Actually I think I do . . . and Jesus is "God", not "a god".

[Tucson Jim]

Show me that plan scripture that says there are three persons that are Almighty God

There are scriptures that plainly state Jehovah alone is Most High, and Jehovah is one

:)) We have shown you numerous scriptures that Jesus is God! You simply refuse to believe what the scriptures say about Him.

Your loss, my friend.

[Tucson Jim]

Did Jesus create you or did your parents procreate you?

3Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made

Interesting the NIV says through him, which conincides nicely with alms 8;22-31 whcih after showing his creation which concides with his being called the beginning of creation has him helping in creation

None of this spin changes one iota the fact that Jesus created ALL things.

Without Him was nothing made that has been made.

That's what the scriptures say.

Jesus is the Creator. Jesus is God.

[Angryamerican]

I have never argued that theos must mean only Jehovah.

I realize that it has broader meanings.

You may be trained in the Greek language, but I am not. So I will admit that I likely do not know all of the possible definitions for the Greek word theos.

If you would like to see them typed out, please do so. Then pick the one that you feel fits Jesus.

My point is that Jesus' actions and attributes put him in a much different class of being than any other being called a god.

Jesus is not an angel, because he created angels.

We know that Jesus was not always a man because we are told that he became flesh, became a man.

Thomas called Jesus his God. A remarkable statement indeed from a devote Jew!

Jesus is eternal. He was with God in the beginning.

I was waiting on your answer about whether God was a saviour and a servant when he freed Israel from bondage ?

[God is My Rock]

See "Incarnation", "economy of the Trinity", didtinction between "nature" and "role".

We've been through this many times.

But good to see ya GMR!

All of which are man made explanations to try to explain what is written in scripture.

None of these concepts are stated in scripture, and at the best can only be forced upon the words themselves.


Jesus incarnation or not was,is, will be the Son of God, for him at any point to claim that he had a God, makes no sense whatsoever, especially if he had been telling people (like trinitarians would like us to believe) that he WAS GOD.


Again this is the single most radical breach with Israel, the notion that God was a Triune being, and that Jesus was God in the flesh. And yet, Jesus and the Gospels give it ZERO explanation time.


Either it is not true, or if true, means nothing to salvation.

Good to see you as well. :)

[Angryamerican]

Okay, let's narrow it a little to Col 1, and what that verse teaches about what Jesus created and whether his creation included angels.

Do you believe that passage indicates that Jesus created angels?

If not, on what basis do you exclude them?

You may want to consider John 1:3 as you ponder this.

Because in job, we see the angels present at the beginning of creation.

Job 38:4 Where were you when I laid the foundations of the earth? Tell if you have understanding!
Job 38:5 Who has set its measurements, for you know? Or who has stretched the line on it?
Job 38:6 On what are its bases sunk, or who cast its cornerstone,
Job 38:7 when the morning stars sang together and all the sons of God shouted for joy?
Job 38:8 Or who shut up the sea with doors, when it broke forth as it came from the womb?
Job 38:9 When I made the clouds its robe, and darkness its navel-band,

[DRS]

None of this spin changes one iota the fact that Jesus created ALL things.

Without Him was nothing made that has been made.

That's what the scriptures say.

Jesus is the Creator. Jesus is God.

It is not spin

Jesus create you?

Did Jesus create Cain?

Did Jesus as the beginning of creation create himself?

Does all mean all?

if it does then trettep is right and univeralism is the way to go

[ralittlefield]

Was God considered a servant when he delivered Israel from egypt ?

Who serves who ?
Exo 32:13 Remember Abraham, Isaac, and Israel, Your servants, to whom You swore by Your own self, and said to them, I will multiply your seed as the stars of the heavens, and all this land that I have spoken of will I give to your seed, and they shall inherit it forever.

Was not God a saviour then ?

Philip 2 says that Jesus had the form of God and took the form of a servant.

Jesus spent his earthy life ministering to humanity, you are asking about one instance where God helped the nation of Israel, frankly, I do not consider that a fair comparison, nor do I see what difference the answer would make. Philp 2 says what it says. Jesus had the form of God, in a display of humility, did not hold on to that, but took the form of a servant.

[ralittlefield]

Because in job, we see the angels present at the beginning of creation.

Job 38:4 Where were you when I laid the foundations of the earth? Tell if you have understanding!
Job 38:5 Who has set its measurements, for you know? Or who has stretched the line on it?
Job 38:6 On what are its bases sunk, or who cast its cornerstone,
Job 38:7 when the morning stars sang together and all the sons of God shouted for joy?
Job 38:8 Or who shut up the sea with doors, when it broke forth as it came from the womb?
Job 38:9 When I made the clouds its robe, and darkness its navel-band,

I do not see how this indicates that Jesus did not create the angels.

It simply says that the angels (morning stars and sons of God) sang together and shouted for joy. That in no way prevents Jesus from being their creator.

They may or may not have been created before the earth was given its form, but it makes no difference. They are created being and are included in Col 1.

16 For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him.

[ralittlefield]

It is not spin

Jesus create you?

Did Jesus create Cain?

Did Jesus as the beginning of creation create himself?

Does all mean all?

if it does then trettep is right and univeralism is the way to go

All does sometimes mean all.

In this case it does.

According to John 1:3 everything that was created, was created by Jesus. Col 1 agrees with that. That being the case, Jesus can not be a created being. He is the Creator, not a creation.

[Angryamerican]

Philip 2 says that Jesus had the form of God and took the form of a servant.

Jesus spent his earthy life ministering to humanity, you are asking about one instance where God helped the nation of Israel, frankly, I do not consider that a fair comparison, nor do I see what difference the answer would make. Philp 2 says what it says. Jesus had the form of God, in a display of humility, did not hold on to that, but took the form of a servant.

Yes man and angels are servants. Yes form can also mean likeness correct ?

[Angryamerican]

I do not see how this indicates that Jesus did not create the angels.

It simply says that the angels (morning stars and sons of God) sang together and shouted for joy. That in no way prevents Jesus from being their creator.

They may or may not have been created before the earth was given its form, but it makes no difference. They are created being and are included in Col 1.

16 For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him.

If you read this whole chapter it clearly points to God Almighty the creator of all things. They were created because of his will.

Rev 4:11 Worthy art thou, our Lord and our God, to receive the glory and the honour and the power: for thou didst create all things, and because of thy will they were, and were created.

They were created through Jesus.

Col 1:16 for in him were all things created, in the heavens and upon the earth, things visible and things invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers; all things have been created through him, and unto him;

Who is the beginning of creation ? The faithful and true witness is Jesus.

Rev 3:14 And to the angel of the church in Laodicea write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God:

[ralittlefield]

If you read this whole chapter it clearly points to God Almighty the creator of all things. They were created because of his will.

Rev 4:11 Worthy art thou, our Lord and our God, to receive the glory and the honour and the power: for thou didst create all things, and because of thy will they were, and were created.

They were created through Jesus.

Col 1:16 for in him were all things created, in the heavens and upon the earth, things visible and things invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers; all things have been created through him, and unto him;

Who is the beginning of creation ? The faithful and true witness is Jesus.

Rev 3:14 And to the angel of the church in Laodicea write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God:


Did you once say that you do not accept the New Testament as scripture?

Just want to know where you are coming from, it seems like you are agreeing with DRS that Jesus is an angel. Is that what you believe?

[Angryamerican]

Did you once say that you do not accept the New Testament as scripture?

Just want to know where you are coming from, it seems like you are agreeing with DRS that Jesus is an angel. Is that what you believe?

I am going back and forth on the nt, not sure where i will be ,only time will tell. My biggest problem with the nt, is that it seems to contradict things in the ot which i have posted in great length. I see little differences, from version to version ,and that also concerns me.

Yes i do believe, from studying the nt, that it seems that Jesus was a created being ,and yes i think he was an angel. Not totally sure on it though. If the Jesus story is true, The book of revelation describes a mighty angel that kicked satan out of heaven. Well i believe it was gonna be christ ,that was gonna remove satan from heaven,just one more reason to think that michael could have been christ.

There are other beings mentioned in heaven ,but not sure if that wasnt just a metaphor. There was no mention of angels being created, so i have to assume, they existed before all other things were created, as we read in the book of job.

I believe God created all things through Christ, and thats why i believe Christ is the only begotten son of God. Because Christ was the only thing that was actually created by God,that is recorded in the word of God.

Yes i believe Christ created all things ,except God his Father, and he did it according to Gods will.That is why it says all things were created through Christ. God willed it ,and Christ did it.

[DRS]

All does sometimes mean all.

In this case it does.

According to John 1:3 everything that was created, was created by Jesus. Col 1 agrees with that. That being the case, Jesus can not be a created being. He is the Creator, not a creation.

So when it refers to Jesus all means all and when it refers to Jesus god means Almighty

Yet the written word of God shows otherwise where all does not always mean all and god does not always refer to the Almighty

[Mikko]

It is not spin

Jesus create you?

Did Jesus create Cain?

Did Jesus as the beginning of creation create himself?

Does all mean all?

if it does then trettep is right and univeralism is the way to goWhat trettep espouses is not true universalism. True universalism is, indeed, the way to go.:)

[ralittlefield]

So when it refers to Jesus all means all and when it refers to Jesus god means Almighty

Yet the written word of God shows otherwise where all does not always mean all and god does not always refer to the Almighty

Yes. When speaking of what was created by Jesus all does mean all.

What else could the language used in John 1:3 mean?

3All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

That seems like pretty clear language to me.

All sometimes has a limited meaning, but not in reference to Jesus creation. John 1:3 makes it clear. If it was created, Jesus created it. That includes angels. So unless angels are eternal and not created, Jesus created them and therefore can not be an angel.

[ralittlefield]

It is not spin

Jesus create you?

Did Jesus create Cain?

Did Jesus as the beginning of creation create himself?

Does all mean all?

if it does then trettep is right and univeralism is the way to go

You do know that procreation is not the same as creation, right?

[Warrior4God]

Yes. When speaking of what was created by Jesus all does mean all.

What else could the language used in John 1:3 mean?

3All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

That seems like pretty clear language to me.

All sometimes has a limited meaning, but not in reference to Jesus creation. John 1:3 makes it clear. If it was created, Jesus created it. That includes angels. So unless angels are eternal and not created, Jesus created them and therefore can not be an angel.

John 1:3 does not say Jesus in the verse.

Thats your guess at best.


logos is translated many ways and Jesus is not a very good translation.
just looked again and logos is still not translated Jesus.
But carry on

[ralittlefield]

John 1:3 does not say Jesus in it.


Jesus as Gods Word became flesh as in what Gods purpose and plan (His Word) became flesh and does not say he created all things.

logos in any and all definitions are about words ans speech etc.

Jesus is called the Word in this passage. In other passages He is called the Light of the world, the way, the Truth and the Life. Just because the dictionary does not define these words as Jesus is not an indication that they can not and are not used to indicate Jesus. So the definition of Logos does not matter.

If you read this passage and forget what people have told you about the definition of Logos, letting other passages of the bible help you to interpret this passage, I believe that it will be clear to you that The Word is Jesus.

The references to being the light of men in verse 4 is reminiscent of Jesus.

As are the references to John the Baptist in the verses that follow.

As is verse 11 which tells about his being rejected by his own.

For the first verses of this Gospel (Good news about Jesus), this account of Jesus' life, to be speaking of anything but Jesus just is not logical to me.

[Warrior4God]

Jesus is called the Word in this passage. In other passages He is called the Light of the world, the way, the Truth and the Life. Just because the dictionary does not define these words as Jesus is not an indication that they can not and are not used to indicate Jesus. So the definition of Logos does not matter.

If you read this passage and forget what people have told you about the definition of Logos, letting other passages of the bible help you to interpret this passage, I believe that it will be clear to you that The Word is Jesus.

The references to being the light of men in verse 4 is reminiscent of Jesus.

As are the references to John the Baptist in the verses that follow.

As is verse 11 which tells about his being rejected by his own.

For the first verses of this Gospel (Good news about Jesus), this account of Jesus' life, to be speaking of anything but Jesus just is not logical to me.

Ok.........its not logical to YOU.

We get the word logic from logos but not Jesus.


I understand where you are coming from but I still believe and would believe that logos is Gods plan even if I was a trinitarian.

I am not going to spin what the word logos means no matter what stance I would have.

Too much at stake to interpret this any other way IMO.

You have your opinion on this and we differ greatly.

If I err I must err on the side of logic.

[ralittlefield]

John 1:3 does not say Jesus in the verse.

Thats your guess at best.


logos is translated many ways and Jesus is not a very good translation.
just looked again and logos is still not translated Jesus.
But carry on


Neither are way, thruth, life, or light translated Jesus, but Jesus is called all of those things. Am I not right?

[Constantine the Great]

Ok.........its not logical to YOU.

We get the word logic from logos but not Jesus.


I understand where you are coming from but I still believe and would believe that logos is Gods plan even if I was a trinitarian.

I am not going to spin what the word logos means no matter what stance I would have.

Too much at stake to interpret this any other way IMO.

You have your opinion on this and we differ greatly.

If I err I must err on the side of logic.


Well, your post would make sense if we just read JOhn 1:1 without reading the rest of John. However, let'[s expound shall we?

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2He was with God in the beginning.

3Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4In him was life, and that life was the light of men. 5The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood[a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John%201&version=31#fen-NIV-26040a)] it.
6There came a man who was sent from God; his name was John. 7He came as a witness to testify concerning that light, so that through him all men might believe. 8He himself was not the light; he came only as a witness to the light. 9The true light that gives light to every man was coming into the world.[b (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John%201&version=31#fen-NIV-26044b)] 10He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him


Repeatedlyt the logos is referred to as Him, and Him being the light, and the light not being understood, and John being a witness to Him. Who is the Him being referred to in here as the Logos? C'mon, intellectual honesty dictates you asnwer that the Logos refers to Christ. No other answer is even remotely possible.

[DispensationalJim]

Well, your post would make sense if we just read JOhn 1:1 without reading the rest of John. However, let'[s expound shall we?

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2He was with God in the beginning.

3Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4In him was life, and that life was the light of men. 5The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood[a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John%201&version=31#fen-NIV-26040a)] it.
6There came a man who was sent from God; his name was John. 7He came as a witness to testify concerning that light, so that through him all men might believe. 8He himself was not the light; he came only as a witness to the light. 9The true light that gives light to every man was coming into the world.[b (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John%201&version=31#fen-NIV-26044b)] 10He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him


Repeatedlyt the logos is referred to as Him, and Him being the light, and the light not being understood, and John being a witness to Him. Who is the Him being referred to in here as the Logos? C'mon, intellectual honesty dictates you asnwer that the Logos refers to Christ. No other answer is even remotely possible.

Excellent logic, IMO, Constantine!

[Mikko]

Well, your post would make sense if we just read JOhn 1:1 without reading the rest of John. However, let'[s expound shall we?

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2He was with God in the beginning.

3Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4In him was life, and that life was the light of men. 5The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood[a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John%201&version=31#fen-NIV-26040a)] it.
6There came a man who was sent from God; his name was John. 7He came as a witness to testify concerning that light, so that through him all men might believe. 8He himself was not the light; he came only as a witness to the light. 9The true light that gives light to every man was coming into the world.[b (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John%201&version=31#fen-NIV-26044b)] 10He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him


Repeatedlyt the logos is referred to as Him, and Him being the light, and the light not being understood, and John being a witness to Him. Who is the Him being referred to in here as the Logos? C'mon, intellectual honesty dictates you asnwer that the Logos refers to Christ. No other answer is even remotely possible.
Very gnostic.:)

[Mikko]

BTW, this is a zombie thread if ever there was one.:)

[DRS]

You do know that procreation is not the same as creation, right?

To procreate means to produce ro bring into being

To create means to bring into being

But anyways all you are doing is getting away from the word all

Were you created by Jesus or were you procreated by your parents

If it is your parents then all does not mean all yet again

[ralittlefield]

To procreate means to produce ro bring into being

To create means to bring into being

But anyways all you are doing is getting away from the word all

Were you created by Jesus or were you procreated by your parents

If it is your parents then all does not mean all yet again

Jesus created all that was created.

After his creation, people reproduced, they did not create.

Plants, animals, fish and people reproduce, they do not create.

[gpd®]

BTW, this is a zombie thread if ever there was one.:)

3 zombies or 1 zombie with three distinct and separate personalities or personages?

[Koushi Shinigami]

Post number 15925

[Reeder]

Close the thread.......

[ralittlefield]

Last one out turn off the lights.

[DispensationalJim]

Last one out turn off the lights.

Is there an easy way to "preserve it" for posterity or future reference?

Maybe someone should publish it as a book!

[God is My Rock]

Is there an easy way to "preserve it" for posterity or future reference?

Maybe someone should publish it as a book!

That is an awesome idea!!!!!!!!!!!

[Gem]

The question was.
Should you believe in the trinity?

I do not know about others but I do not believe in the trinity.

I find no scriptures to bear it out.

[Gem]

John 1: 1-5, 14.

The word which was in the beginning, and was God, becamse flesh. Jesus Christ is the Living Word of God.

[DispensationalJim]

That is an awesome idea!!!!!!!!!!!

Any suggestions for a title?? Maybe "THE TRINITY -- for and against"? :)

[Mikko]

John 1: 1-5, 14.

The word which was in the beginning, and was God, becamse flesh. Jesus Christ is the Living Word of God.
According to whom?

[DispensationalJim]

The question was.
Should you believe in the trinity?

I do not know about others but I do not believe in the trinity.

I find no scriptures to bear it out.

Hey, Gem, glad to have you join us here.

I've been following the "Isaiah 53" thread and saw your posts there, which I thought made some good points, but as a couple of people mentioned to you, you need to be careful about your comments ABOUT other posters.

FireWatch (a Moderator) is watching. (BTW, he is a very well spoken "Oneness" believer, so you definitely don't want to get him upset with you) :angel:

[DRS]

Jesus created all that was created.

After his creation, people reproduced, they did not create.

Plants, animals, fish and people reproduce, they do not create.

Jesus did not create himself

Proverbs 8:22-31 shows the creation of someone who then goes on to beside God working in creation, which sounds like the one through whom things were created

Hence y in Revelation he is called the beginning of creation

[DispensationalJim]

Jesus did not create himself

Proverbs 8:22-31 shows the creation of someone who then goes on to beside God working in creation, which sounds like the one through whom things were created

Hence y in Revelation he is called the beginning of creation

DRS, why do you insist on continuing to bring up Prov. 8 as a reference to Jesus when many of us have shown repeatedly that it just ain't about Jesus? It is about a WOMAN named Wisdom, for goodness sake! Are you suggesting that Jesus was a woman?

• Prov. 8:1 Doth not wisdom cry? and understanding put forth her voice? 2 She standeth in the top of high places, by the way in the places of the paths. 3 She crieth at the gates, at the entry of the city, at the coming in at the doors.
...
• Prov. 8:22 The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old. 23 I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was.

If you replace "possessed me" with "possessed wisdom" it makes complete sense. Certainly God the Father possessed wisdom in the beginning.

=========================

In The Revelation, Jesus is the "beginning of creation" because He began it by actually doing the creating.

Here are the verses about "the beginning":
• Rev. 1:8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.
• Rev. 3:14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;
• Rev. 21:6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.
• Rev. 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. 13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. ... 16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.

Yep, that is Jesus, THE LORD!

[DRS]

As I have shown you before the whole she thing si moot as the as the word for congregator is also feminine but refers to Solomon

And our jewish friends here have also explained gender issues to you


Now if you atuallyt look up the hebrew word you would see it was something that had to be gotten ro brought forth, no something you have already and it would not be an attribute as you see wisdom doing work, in creation.

as for Revelation you have two problems first it is the Revelation God gave to Jesus

Then we have what the bible actually says vs. what you want to believe

14And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God

Jesus is the beginning of creation Proverbs describes and Revaltion confirms it

[God is My Rock]

Any suggestions for a title?? Maybe "THE TRINITY -- for and against"? :)

"The Rantings and Ravings of God's Chosen" ?

Just kidding...........

:lol:

[Gem]

Should You Believe in the Trinity?

Is It Clearly a Bible Teaching?



IF THE Trinity were true, it should be clearly and consistently presented in the Bible. Why? Because, as the apostles affirmed, the Bible is God's revelation of himself to mankind. And since we need to know God to worship him acceptably, the Bible should be clear in telling us just who he is.

First-century believers accepted the Scriptures as the authentic revelation of God. It was the basis for their beliefs, the final authority. For example, when the apostle Paul preached to people in the city of Beroea, "they received the word with the greatest eagerness of mind, carefully examining the Scriptures daily as to whether these things were so."—Acts 17:10, 11.

What did prominent men of God at that time use as their authority? Acts 17:2, 3 tells us: "According to Paul's custom . . . he reasoned with them from the Scriptures, explaining and proving by references [from the Scriptures]."

Jesus himself set the example in using the Scriptures as the basis for his teaching, repeatedly saying: "It is written." "He interpreted to them things pertaining to himself in all the Scriptures."—Matthew 4:4, 7; Luke 24:27.

Thus Jesus, Paul, and first-century believers used the Scriptures as the foundation for their teaching. They knew that "all Scripture is inspired of God and beneficial for teaching, for reproving, for setting things straight, for disciplining in righteousness, that the man of God may be fully competent, completely equipped for every good work."—2 Timothy 3:16, 17; see also 1 Corinthians 4:6; 1 Thessalonians 2:13; 2 Peter 1:20, 21.

Since the Bible can 'set things straight,' it should clearly reveal information about a matter as fundamental as the Trinity is claimed to be. But do theologians and historians themselves say that it is clearly a Bible teaching?

"Trinity" in the Bible?




A PROTESTANT publication states: "The word Trinity is not found in the Bible . . . It did not find a place formally in the theology of the church till the 4th century." (The Illustrated Bible Dictionary) And a Catholic authority says that the Trinity "is not . . . directly and immediately [the] word of God."—New Catholic Encyclopedia.

The Catholic Encyclopedia also comments: "In Scripture there is as yet no single term by which the Three Divine Persons are denoted together. The word [tri'as] (of which the Latin trinitas is a translation) is first found in Theophilus of Antioch about A. D. 180. . . . Shortly afterwards it appears in its Latin form of trinitas in Tertullian."

However, this is no proof in itself that Tertullian taught the Trinity. The Catholic work Trinitas—A Theological Encyclopedia of the Holy Trinity, for example, notes that some of Tertullian's words were later used by others to describe the Trinity. Then it cautions: "But hasty conclusions cannot be drawn from usage, for he does not apply the words to Trinitarian theology."

Testimony of the Hebrew Scriptures




WHILE the word "Trinity" is not found in the Bible, is at least the idea of the Trinity taught clearly in it? For instance, what do the Hebrew Scriptures ("Old Testament") reveal?

The Encyclopedia of Religion admits: "Theologians today are in agreement that the Hebrew Bible does not contain a doctrine of the Trinity." And the New Catholic Encyclopedia also says: "The doctrine of the Holy Trinity is not taught in the O[ld] T[estament]."

Similarly, in his book The Triune God, Jesuit Edmund Fortman admits: "The Old Testament . . . tells us nothing explicitly or by necessary implication of a Triune God who is Father, Son and Holy Spirit. . . . There is no evidence that any sacred writer even suspected the existence of a [Trinity] within the Godhead. . . . Even to see in [the "Old Testament"] suggestions or foreshadowings or 'veiled signs' of the trinity of persons, is to go beyond the words and intent of the sacred writers."—Italics ours.

An examination of the Hebrew Scriptures themselves will bear out these comments. Thus, there is no clear teaching of a Trinity in the first 39 books of the Bible that make up the true canon of the inspired Hebrew Scriptures.

Testimony of the Greek Scriptures




WELL, then, do the Christian Greek Scriptures ("New Testament") speak clearly of a Trinity?

The Encyclopedia of Religion says: "Theologians agree that the New Testament also does not contain an explicit doctrine of the Trinity."

Jesuit Fortman states: "The New Testament writers . . . give us no formal or formulated doctrine of the Trinity, no explicit teaching that in one God there are three co-equal divine persons. . . . Nowhere do we find any trinitarian doctrine of three distinct subjects of divine life and activity in the same Godhead."

The New Encyclopædia Britannica observes: "Neither the word Trinity nor the explicit doctrine appears in the New Testament."

Bernhard Lohse says in A Short History of Christian Doctrine: "As far as the New Testament is concerned, one does not find in it an actual doctrine of the Trinity."

The New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology similarly states: "The N[ew] T[estament] does not contain the developed doctrine of the Trinity. 'The Bible lacks the express declaration that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are of equal essence' [said Protestant theologian Karl Barth]."

Yale University professor E. Washburn Hopkins affirmed: "To Jesus and Paul the doctrine of the trinity was apparently unknown; . . . they say nothing about it."—Origin and Evolution of Religion.

Historian Arthur Weigall notes: "Jesus Christ never mentioned such a phenomenon, and nowhere in the New Testament does the word 'Trinity' appear. The idea was only adopted by the Church three hundred years after the death of our Lord."—The Paganism in Our Christianity.

Thus, neither the 39 books of the Hebrew Scriptures nor the canon of 27 inspired books of the Christian Greek Scriptures provide any clear teaching of the Trinity.

Taught by Early Christians?




DID the early Christians teach the Trinity? Note the following comments by historians and theologians:

"Primitive Christianity did not have an explicit doctrine of the Trinity such as was subsequently elaborated in the creeds."—The New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology.

"The early Christians, however, did not at first think of applying the [Trinity] idea to their own faith. They paid their devotions to God the Father and to Jesus Christ, the Son of God, and they recognised the . . . Holy Spirit; but there was no thought of these three being an actual Trinity, co-equal and united in One."—The Paganism in Our Christianity.

"At first the Christian faith was not Trinitarian . . . It was not so in the apostolic and sub-apostolic ages, as reflected in the N[ew] T[estament] and other early Christian writings."—Encyclopædia of Religion and Ethics.

"The formulation 'one God in three Persons' was not solidly established, certainly not fully assimilated into Christian life and its profession of faith, prior to the end of the 4th century. . . . Among the Apostolic Fathers, there had been nothing even remotely approaching such a mentality or perspective."—New Catholic Encyclopedia.

What the Ante-Nicene Fathers Taught




THE ante-Nicene Fathers were acknowledged to have been leading religious teachers in the early centuries after Christ's birth. What they taught is of interest.



Irenaeus, who died about 200 C.E., said that the prehuman Jesus had a separate existence from God and was inferior to him. He showed that Jesus is not equal to the "One true and only God," who is "supreme over all, and besides whom there is no other."

Clement of Alexandria, who died about 215 C.E., called Jesus in his prehuman existence "a creature" but called God "the uncreated and imperishable and only true God." He said that the Son "is next to the only omnipotent Father" but not equal to him.

Tertullian, who died about 230 C.E., taught the supremacy of God. He observed: "The Father is different from the Son (another), as he is greater; as he who begets is different from him who is begotten; he who sends, different from him who is sent." He also said: "There was a time when the Son was not. . . . Before all things, God was alone."

Hippolytus, who died about 235 C.E., said that God is "the one God, the first and the only One, the Maker and Lord of all," who "had nothing co-eval [of equal age] with him . . . But he was One, alone by himself; who, willing it, called into being what had no being before," such as the created prehuman Jesus.

"There is no evidence that any sacred writer even suspected the existence of a [Trinity] within the Godhead."—The Triune God


Origen, who died about 250 C.E., said that "the Father and Son are two substances . . . two things as to their essence," and that "compared with the Father, [the Son] is a very small light."

Summing up the historical evidence, Alvan Lamson says in The Church of the First Three Centuries: "The modern popular doctrine of the Trinity . . . derives no support from the language of Justin [Martyr]: and this observation may be extended to all the ante-Nicene Fathers; that is, to all Christian writers for three centuries after the birth of Christ. It is true, they speak of the Father, Son, and . . . holy Spirit, but not as co-equal, not as one numerical essence, not as Three in One, in any sense now admitted by Trinitarians. The very reverse is the fact."

Thus, the testimony of the Bible and of history makes clear that the Trinity was unknown throughout Biblical times and for several centuries thereafter.Comments?

A wonderful job you did here, very true.

[Gem]

I believe that you have mentioned in another post that you attend a Pentecostal Church. So do I (an Assembly of God). So you have probably heard that the "Jesus only" teaching was something that used to be taught in some Pentecostal circles.

I have heard that William Branham was one of these teachers/preachers, and that they used the Gospel of John chapter 1 out of context a lot. 1)"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.2)Hec was in the Beginning with God. 3) All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made.........14)And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father". So, to me, it seems that this text indicates a certain distinction between the Father and the Son. And at the same time, an inseparable unity.

And when Jesus told His disciples that He would be with them "even to the end of the age", He knew that He would be ascending to the Father. So how would He be with them? If the Holy Ghost is with them, Jesus is with them also. He promised that He would send the Spirit. Acts 2 is an account of the Day of Pentecost experience. Again, there is a distinction between the Son and the Spirit. And at the same time, an inseparable unity.

I have heard that the Trinity of God bears some similarities to the Trinity of Man. A man (or woman) has three parts; a body, a soul, and a spirit. In this comparison, the Father is compared to the soul because His will is sovereign. The Son is compared to the body, because he physically does the will of the Father. The remaining comparison (Spirit) is obvious.

I don't know if this comparison is totally valid, but it makes sense to me. And I know that the Word "Trinity" is not in the Bible. But I can't think of a more scripturally valid way to teach about the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. All three are for real. And inseparable..

I think if you would check out the history of the Assembly Of God Church you will find that at one time in their history they were
Oneness Pentecostal at one time as well.

[Gem]

If we really want to know why not forget what we think, forget what our "religion" teaches and go right to God's Word. Lets start at John 1.
In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God. So the Word is with God and Is God.

The Word became flesh and dwelt among us. This is Jesus. So the Word which is God, becomes flesh and is called Jesus. This is immanuel. God with us which Isa 9:6 foretold. Therefore Jesus is God come in the flesh.

So is this what the Bible says?

Yes that is what the scriptures say.

[Constantine the Great]

I think if you would check out the history of the Assembly Of God Church you will find that at one time in their history they were
Oneness Pentecostal at one time as well.



Good to know they eventually saw the light.

[Warrior4God]

Funny how people keep saying .................

enough already and is this thread still going? etc.

Yup the debate is still going and going.

I wonder what side of the debate the energizer bunny is on?

Wait the aliens took the little guy,maybe thats who started this trinity thing.

kidding ya'll(kinda sorta)..........still kidding.


Good morning and God Bless you all and pray that you can have a great season of love and fellowship as the holidays seem to have come upon us already.

[Koushi Shinigami]

Any suggestions for a title?? Maybe "THE TRINITY -- for and against"? :)

How about "Don't Read This Book"?

[Tucson Jim]

Funny how people keep saying .................

enough already and is this thread still going? etc.

Yup the debate is still going and going.



Seems to me it's mostly people who do not participate much in the thread who say that . . .

[Tucson Jim]

How about "Don't Read This Book"?

If you feel that way, why waste everyone's time, including your own, by posting in this thread?

[Tucson Jim]

Yes that is what the scriptures say.

and so . . .??

[Koushi Shinigami]

If you feel that way, why waste everyone's time, including your own, by posting in this thread?

Why not?

[Tucson Jim]

Jesus did not create himself

Correct. he is eternal, uncreated. he is God.

Proverbs 8:22-31 shows the creation of someone who then goes on to beside God working in creation, which sounds like the one through whom things were created

Then why does God say "I stretched out the heavens "by Myself" and "all alone"?

[Tucson Jim]

Why not?

Nothing better to do than waste your time in a thread you feel is not worth reading?

Kinda sad . . .

[Koushi Shinigami]

Nothing better to do than waste your time in a thread you feel is not worth reading?

Kinda sad . . .

'Tis, isn't it.

[Tucson Jim]

'Tis, isn't it.

:)) So how ya doin' Koushi? I haven't sparred with you in a while. Hope you are well.

[Koushi Shinigami]

:)) So how ya doin' Koushi? I haven't sparred with you in a while. Hope you are well.

Nope. Not well at all.

[Tucson Jim]

Nope. Not well at all.


What's wrong?

[DRS]

Correct. he is eternal, uncreated. he is God.



Then why does God say "I stretched out the heavens "by Myself" and "all alone"?

God is never called the beginning of creation where as Jesus

The bible also uses the expression "Jehovah himself" is also used in the building of Israel, did He do it by Himself or did he decree and others do it?

[DispensationalJim]

Originally Posted by HisServant
If we really want to know why not forget what we think, forget what our "religion" teaches and go right to God's Word. Lets start at John 1. In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God. So the Word is with God and Is God.

The Word became flesh and dwelt among us. This is Jesus. So the Word which is God, becomes flesh and is called Jesus. This is immanuel. God with us which Isa 9:6 foretold. Therefore Jesus is God come in the flesh.

So is this what the Bible says?

Yes that is what the scriptures say.

Forgive me, Gem, but you are confusing me. You seemed to agree with the post of HisServant shown above, but earlier, you also seemed to approve of the OP, which was definitely disapproving of The Trinity. Following your long quote of Tater, you said:
"A wonderful job you did here, very true."

So, Gem, could you please explain?

[Angryamerican]

Originally Posted by HisServant
If we really want to know why not forget what we think, forget what our "religion" teaches and go right to God's Word. Lets start at John 1. In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God. So the Word is with God and Is God.

The Word became flesh and dwelt among us. This is Jesus. So the Word which is God, becomes flesh and is called Jesus. This is immanuel. God with us which Isa 9:6 foretold. Therefore Jesus is God come in the flesh.

So is this what the Bible says?



Forgive me, Gem, but you are confusing me. You seemed to agree with the post of HisServant shown above, but earlier, you also seemed to approve of the OP, which was definitely disapproving of The Trinity. Following your long quote of Tater, you said:
"A wonderful job you did here, very true."

So, Gem, could you please explain?

Why not the ot ?

Deu 6:4 Hear, O Israel: the LORD our God is one LORD:

Exo 9:14 For I will this time send all my plagues upon thine heart, and upon thy servants, and upon thy people; that thou mayest know that there is none like me in all the earth.

Isa 46:9 Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me;

Num 23:19 God is not a man, that he should lie; Neither the son of man, that he should repent: Hath he said, and shall he not do it? Or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?

Joh 10:29 My Father who gave them to me is greater than all, and no one is able to pluck them out of My Father's hand.

Joh 14:28 You have heard how I said to you, I go away and I am coming to you again. If you loved Me, you would rejoice because I said, I go to the Father, for My Father is greater than I.

Seems pretty clear to me.

[DispensationalJim]

Why not the ot ?

...
Seems pretty clear to me.

I think you need to reread my post, AA. I was not discussing the "OT" (Old Testament), but the "OP" (the "Original Post" of this thread by Tater). I was commenting that Gem seemed to approve of two opposite views, one for the Trinity and one against the Trinity.

Sorry if I confused anyone. I hope that helps clarify what I was trying to say...

[DRS]

Just a question was Jesus tried or tested by evil means?

[Angryamerican]

I think you need to reread my post, AA. I was not discussing the "OT" (Old Testament), but the "OP" (the "Original Post" of this thread by Tater). I was commenting that Gem seemed to approve of two opposite views, one for the Trinity and one against the Trinity.

Sorry if I confused anyone. I hope that helps clarify what I was trying to say...

No you didn't confuse me, but you wanted to start in Gods word, where it supports your view. And we all know there is controversy over the verse you posted. And the verses i posted, there is no controversy.

[God is My Rock]

Funny how people keep saying .................

enough already and is this thread still going? etc.

Yup the debate is still going and going.

I wonder what side of the debate the energizer bunny is on?

Wait the aliens took the little guy,maybe thats who started this trinity thing.

kidding ya'll(kinda sorta)..........still kidding.


Good morning and God Bless you all and pray that you can have a great season of love and fellowship as the holidays seem to have come upon us already.

Just for fun, I went and started reading the posts from the beginning.

I did not realize Warrior, that you were one of the first posters!!!!!

There really is some good stuff, any how I think I might bump some old stuff as it strikes me.

Blessings to you all, God's peace be with you and your families.

May we see our lives as God's see them, and with the awareness of each and eveything person, relationship, breath, heartbeat, that He has given us, may we be truly thankful.

[DispensationalJim]

No you didn't confuse me, but you wanted to start in Gods word, where it supports your view. And we all know there is controversy over the verse you posted. And the verses i posted, there is no controversy.

Now I'm confused, AA... what verse did I post?

I think you were looking at the verse HisServant posted (John 1:1). I guess I should have made the quote more obvious. I just put quotes around it.

Of course, several have shown that John 1:1 is only controversial in the eyes of those who will not accept the deity of Christ. :)

[DispensationalJim]

...
Blessings to you all, God's peace be with you and your families.

May we see our lives as God's see them, and with the awareness of each and eveything person, relationship, breath, heartbeat, that He has given us, may we be truly thankful.

Thanks, Rock! Same to you. Here's my favorite "thanksgiving" passages:

• Eph. 5:18 ... but be filled with the Spirit; 19 Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord; 20 Giving thanks always for all things unto God and the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ;

• Col. 3:16 Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord. 17 And whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God and the Father by him.

Please notice that being filled with the Spirit and filled with the Word Of Christ bring exactly the same results! Isn't that amazing?!

PS, I think those passages are also supportive of the deity of Christ!

[DRS]

Now I'm confused, AA... what verse did I post?

I think you were looking at the verse HisServant posted (John 1:1). I guess I should have made the quote more obvious. I just put quotes around it.

Of course, several have shown that John 1:1 is only controversial in the eyes of those who will not accept the deity of Christ. :)

Of course no one who engages in the worship of the beginning of creation does not see a problem of omitting words in translation to try and prove the there are two people who are God

[ralittlefield]

Just a question was Jesus tried or tested by evil means?

I'm not sure what you are getting at.

Satan's motive was wrong (evil), but the means (method) he used was not evil.

Same with the religious leaders. They had evil motives, but asking questions is not in of its self evil. Does that answer your question?

[God is My Rock]

The trinity however widely used by most doctrines within denominations never existed before 325ad and is based on a few mistranslated or misinterpreted scripture and has no basis or solid foundation unless you add other books into the bible you will not see it.

In fact the beauty of Christ being the second Adam is incredible
had Jesus been God then we are still awaiting the messiah

Its easy for God to walk perfect and no miracle about God raising himself who was dead 3 days??

God was dead? if he was dead who raised him
The bible is not some mystery we just accept it is truth because the mystery has been revealed1. God is all wise, but Jesus grew in wisdom.

Luke 2:52
And Jesus grew in wisdom and stature, and in favor with God and men.

Hebrews 5:8 and 9
(8) Although he was a son, he learned obedience from what he suffered
(9) and, once made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him.
2. God has limitless knowledge, but Jesus had limited knowledge.

Mark 13:32 (RVS)
“But of that day or that hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.

3. God is, and always has been, perfect, but Jesus needed to attain perfection through his suffering.

Hebrews 2:10
In bringing many sons to glory, it was fitting that God, for whom and through whom everything exists, should make the author of their salvation perfect through suffering.

4. Jesus received holy spirit at his baptism. If Jesus were God and the holy spirit were God, then God would have been anointed with God by God. What purpose would this have served? We know why people are anointed, but what power could God give to Himself? Jesus was given the gift of holy spirit, the same gift he now gives to believers today.

Mark 1:9-11
(9) At that time Jesus came from Nazareth in Galilee and was baptized by John in the Jordan.
(10) As Jesus was coming up out of the water, he saw heaven being torn open and the Spirit descending on him like a dove.
(11) And a voice came from heaven: “You are my son, whom I love; with you I am well pleased.”

5. God cannot be tempted, but Jesus was tempted in every way just as we are.

James 1:13 (RSV)
Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am tempted by God”; for God cannot be tempted with evil and He himself tempts no one;

Hebrews 4:15
For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are—yet was without sin.

6. God does not need to be strengthened, but Jesus did.

Luke 22:43 and 44
(43) An angel from heaven appeared to him and strengthened him.
(44) And being in anguish, he prayed more earnestly, and his sweat was like drops of blood falling to the ground.

7. God cannot die. Scripture tells us that God is “immortal,” which means “not subject to death,” but Jesus died.

Romans 1:22 and 23
(22) Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools
(23) and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles.

8. Jesus is not ashamed to call us his “brothers,” because we have the same Father he does. The Bible teaches that we are “brothers” of Jesus and “sons of God.” Scripture never says or even infers that we are “brothers of God.”

Hebrews 2:10 and 11
(10) In bringing many sons to glory, it was fitting that God, for whom and through whom everything exists, should make the author of their salvation perfect through suffering.
(11) Both the one who makes men holy and those who are made holy are of the same family. So Jesus is not ashamed to call them brothers.

9. We are commissioned to do “greater works” than Jesus. This would be absurd if Jesus were God, because then we disciples would be commissioned to do greater works than God does.

John 14:12 (KJV)
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

10. Scripture says that God is spirit; yet even after his resurrection Jesus said of himself that he was not a spirit, but flesh and bone.

John 4:23
God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in spirit and in truth.

Luke 24:39 (KJV)
Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

11. The Bible says that God is not a man, but Jesus is very plainly called a man many times in Scripture.

Numbers 23:19a
God is not a man, that he should lie, nor a son of man, that he should change his mind….

John 8:39 and 40
(39) “…If you were Abraham’s children,” said Jesus, “then you would do the things Abraham did.
(40) As it is, you are determined to kill me, a man who has told you the truth that I heard from God….

Acts 2:22
“Men of Israel, listen to this: Jesus of Nazareth was a man accredited by God to you by miracles, wonders and signs, which God did among you through him, as you yourselves know.

Acts 17:31
For He has set a day when He will judge the world with justice by the man He has appointed. He has given proof of this to all men by raising him from the dead.”

1 Timothy 2:5
For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,

12. Jesus is called the “son of God” more than 50 times in the Bible. Not once is he called “God the Son.”

13. God and Jesus have two separate and distinct wills. If Jesus were God, then his will would always be the same as God’s. Scripture tells us that it wasn’t.

Luke 22:39-42
(39) Jesus went out as usual to the Mount of Olives, and his disciples followed him.
(40) On reaching the place, he said to them, “Pray that you will not fall into temptation.”
(41) He withdrew about a stone’s throw beyond them, knelt down and prayed,
(42) “Father, if you are willing, take this cup from me; yet not my will, but yours be done.”

14. It is important to Jesus for us to know who he is, just as it was important for him to know who his disciples thought he was almost 2,000 years ago.

Matthew 16:13-17
(13) When Jesus came to the region of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, “Who do people say the Son of Man is?”
(14) They replied, “Some say John the Baptist; others say Elijah; and still others, Jeremiah or one of the prophets.”
(15) “But what about you?” he asked. “Who do you say I am?”
(16) Simon Peter answered, “You are the Christ, the son of the living God.”
(17) Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven.

15. God has no mother. Jesus did have a mother.

Nehemiah 9:5a
And the Levites-Jeshua, Kadmiel, Bani, Hashabneiah, Sherebiah, Hodiah, Shebaniah and Pethahiah-said: “Stand up and praise the LORD your God, who is from everlasting to everlasting.”

John 2:1-3
(1) On the third day a wedding took place at Cana in Galilee. Jesus' mother was there,
(2) and Jesus and his disciples had also been invited to the wedding.
(3) When the wine was gone, Jesus' mother said to him, “They have no more wine.”

Who do you say he is?

Good Post!!!!!

Hebrews 5: 7-10

Is actually a VERY Good few verses to ponder

[lawandorder]

A wonderful job you did here, very true.

It's pretty simple. ONE God, ONE son, ONE spirit. 'thout shalt not have any other gods before me". .............ONE God, .....no other God, gods. Jesus is the SON of God, not God. ONE!

[DRS]

I'm not sure what you are getting at.

Satan's motive was wrong (evil), but the means (method) he used was not evil.

Same with the religious leaders. They had evil motives, but asking questions is not in of its self evil. Does that answer your question?

It is not evil to ask one to disobey what is written and put God to the test?

It is not evil to beat a man and torture him to death in an effort to get him to recent his faith?

[ralittlefield]

It is not evil to ask one to disobey what is written and put God to the test?

It is not evil to beat a man and torture him to death in an effort to get him to recent his faith?

I'm sure that you have a point, but I'm afraid that I don't know what it is.

[Warrior4God]

Good Post!!!!!

Hebrews 5: 7-10

Is actually a VERY Good few verses to ponder

You had me go back and read some from the beginning of the thread too.

I am amazed at the logic of one God and that one God sent his Son who is subject to that one true God.

[DRS]

I'm sure that you have a point, but I'm afraid that I don't know what it is.

Are those thing evil?

[ralittlefield]

You had me go back and read some from the beginning of the thread too.

I am amazed at the logic of one God and that one God sent his Son who is subject to that one true God.

What does it mean to be The Son of God?


Not an adopted son like us, but THE SON OF GOD?


I do not understand how God's Son can be less than God.

[Koushi Shinigami]

:whistle:

[ralittlefield]

Are those thing evil?

I still do not know where you are going.

[ralittlefield]

:whistle:

Hi.

[Koushi Shinigami]

Howdy.

[DRS]

I still do not know where you are going.

It is a simple question was it evil the way Jesus was tested

[ralittlefield]

It's pretty simple. ONE God, ONE son, ONE spirit. 'thout shalt not have any other gods before me". .............ONE God, .....no other God, gods. Jesus is the SON of God, not God. ONE!

Really?

John thought He was God (John 1:1)

He was Thomas' God (John 20:28)

[Warrior4God]

Really?

John thought He was God (John 1:1)

He was Thomas' God (John 20:28)

Beat those verses to death why don't you.

I have shown you why I believe your assumption as it pertains to those verses come up short.

You can't hang a doctrine upon a few verses here and there when the majority of scripture contradicts your view.

[ralittlefield]

Beat those verses to death why don't you.

I have shown you why I believe your assumption as it pertains to those verses come up short.

You can't hang a doctrine upon a few verses here and there when the majority of scripture contradicts your view.

All you have to say is that Jesus is the Son of God, and that is suposed to make me belive that He is not God?

If the Son of God is not God, what is he? A super human? An angel?

[Warrior4God]

All you have to say is that Jesus is the Son of God, and that is suposed to make me belive that He is not God?

If the Son of God is not God, what is he? A super human? An angel?

Jesus is the most amazing man that ever lived and he is pretty super in what he did for me.

He is NOT an angel.

He is,was and always will be a man.


1Ti 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

[ralittlefield]

Jesus is the most amazing man that ever lived and he is pretty super in what he did for me.

He is NOT an angel.

He is,was and always will be a man.


1Ti 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

Happy Thanksgiving Warrior! We do have much to be thankful for, do we not?

May God bless you and yours.

I know that you do not like the word incarnation, so I won't use it in this post. :)

I do have to wonder what you think John meant when he said the Word became flesh?

Was Jesus a man when He was with the Father before the world began, or did he become a man when He "became flesh"?

I have a hard time imagining a man existing before the world began.

John 17
5 And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.

Was it just a "plan of God" that had glory with the Father? How does a plan have glory?

Jesus is a man. Jesus is The Son of God. I agree with you on those points.

I believe that the Word who spoke the universe into existence is the Jesus of Philippians 2 who gave up the form of God and took the form of a servant.

At that point God the Son could say "the Father is greater than I". He could say that He does his Father's will. I do not believe His saying those things is an indication that He is not God. I do not get this belief from commentaries or websites. I get it from the bible.

[Warrior4God]

Happy Thanksgiving Warrior! We do have much to be thankful for, do we not?

May God bless you and yours.

I know that you do not like the word incarnation, so I won't use it in this post. :)

I do have to wonder what you think John meant when he said the Word became flesh?

Was Jesus a man when He was with the Father before the world began, or did he become a man when He "became flesh"?

I have a hard time imagining a man existing before the world began.

John 17
5 And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.

Was it just a "plan of God" that had glory with the Father? How does a plan have glory?

Jesus is a man. Jesus is The Son of God. I agree with you on those points.

I believe that the Word who spoke the universe into existence is the Jesus of Philippians 2 who gave up the form of God and took the form of a servant.

At that point God the Son could say "the Father is greater than I". He could say that He does his Father's will. I do not believe His saying those things is an indication that He is not God. I do not get this belief from commentaries or websites. I get it from the bible.

Happy Thanksgiving to you too!!!!!


My whole take on The Word(logos=words of God=Gods Words becoming a reality ) becoming flesh is that Gods purpose and plan(His Word in the OT became a reality.

I know you don't agree but I know if I was to ever come to the same view as you(which I doubt given all evidence)I would still believe my view on John 1 to be correct.


We were called out before the foundations of the world,right?
That means you and I were also in Gods plan.
That does not mean we were there.

My view on Jesus being with God in the beginning is ...........

1. It is possible but still believe he was created by God and had a beginning.

2. Doubt very seriously he created anything but what he has authority over at this point and thats the church and things that pertain to it.

There are more views I was going to post but felt there was no point because it gets away from this subject a bit.

I know you think me foolish but...............
If I am right and you know there is that possibility how ever so slight in your mind............none of it matters at the wonderful day Christ returns.

I know you see the scriptures you post as proof but you do know that EVERY verse you post has an answer.

You also know that every verse I post is also in your mind as being the man part of Jesus and not the God part.

My point is in all honesty that if I err I will err on the side of not making a God out of man so as to not blaspheme the One True God.

I pray that IF you are wrong or IF I am wrong,God will not hold that to our account.

I truly do pray this.

I pray this for Oneness as well.

One thing I am not sure of is whether Jesus was here before he was born..........God will show me this I just know it in my heart because my view is to know God and all things that pertain to him and care not if I am right or wrong in my own mind.

I pray that all who post here know that I love my Father and want to know and do his will and love my Lord Jesus Christ who deserves more glory and praise then anything in and under heaven.

[Warrior4God]

Happy Thanksgiving Warrior! We do have much to be thankful for, do we not?



Yes we do have much to be thankful for.

I am very very thankful that men like you stand for God in these times and not give in to the evil that surrounds us.

There are great and honest men who post here and around the world that stand in the gap for God and pray and speak for God to defend their faith and wives and children and deserve honor and praise from their brothers and sisters in Christ.

You are truly Gods best.

[HardHammer]

Jesus is the most amazing man that ever lived and he is pretty super in what he did for me.

He is NOT an angel.

He is,was and always will be a man.


1Ti 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

But was His Life and teachings more important than the substitutionary sacrafice He made for us? His Glory is what removes us from the sin of this world. Was it adequate for just a man to be sacraficed, or did The Father require more than a just a man?

I believe The Father sacraficed a piece of Himself in order to protect and save those who were incapable of saving themselves as a result of their disobedience.

Ephesians 2:4-10 (New King James Version)

4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.


Having received The Fathers Will in FULL and fulfilled it Perfectly, Jesus was indeed God on earth. The Father delt directly with mankind before, and almost destroyed them all as a direct result of their wickedness. Jesus was sent by the Father, to represent Him in ALL His Glory, yet foolish man again rejected Gods Will for them, just as many reject WHO Jesus was and is today.

[DRS]

Really?

John thought He was God (John 1:1)

He was Thomas' God (John 20:28)

why do you ignore the other verses from John

1:18*No man has seen God at any time; the only-begotten god who is in the bosom [position] with the Father is the one that has explained him.

Or all those verses in chapter 1 where he is called the lamb of God

Or this from chapter 20

16*Jesus said to her: “Mary!” Upon turning around, she said to him, in Hebrew: “Rab‧bo′ni!” (which means “Teacher!”) 17*Jesus said to her: “Stop clinging to me. For I have not yet ascended to the Father. But be on your way to my brothers and say to them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and YOUR Father and to my God and YOUR God.’”

[DRS]

It is a simple question was it evil the way Jesus was tested

Bump for Ralph

[ralittlefield]

Happy Thanksgiving to you too!!!!!


My whole take on The Word(logos=words of God=Gods Words becoming a reality ) becoming flesh is that Gods purpose and plan(His Word in the OT became a reality.

I know you don't agree but I know if I was to ever come to the same view as you(which I doubt given all evidence)I would still believe my view on John 1 to be correct.

Verse 6 of John 1 tells us that John the Baptist came to testify of the that Light.

That Light is the Light of the preceeding verse, also in those verses called The Word. This, to me, clearly identifies The Word as Jesus, since we know that John came to testify of Jesus.


We were called out before the foundations of the world,right?
That means you and I were also in Gods plan.
That does not mean we were there.

Exactly! We were not there. But Jesus says that He was. John 17:5 says that He was.



My view on Jesus being with God in the beginning is ...........

1. It is possible but still believe he was created by God and had a beginning.

2. Doubt very seriously he created anything but what he has authority over at this point and thats the church and things that pertain to it.

There are more views I was going to post but felt there was no point because it gets away from this subject a bit.

I know you think me foolish but...............
If I am right and you know there is that possibility how ever so slight in your mind............none of it matters at the wonderful day Christ returns.

I know you see the scriptures you post as proof but you do know that EVERY verse you post has an answer.

You also know that every verse I post is also in your mind as being the man part of Jesus and not the God part.

My point is in all honesty that if I err I will err on the side of not making a God out of man so as to not blaspheme the One True God.

I pray that IF you are wrong or IF I am wrong,God will not hold that to our account.

I truly do pray this.

I pray this for Oneness as well.

One thing I am not sure of is whether Jesus was here before he was born..........God will show me this I just know it in my heart because my view is to know God and all things that pertain to him and care not if I am right or wrong in my own mind.

I pray that all who post here know that I love my Father and want to know and do his will and love my Lord Jesus Christ who deserves more glory and praise then anything in and under heaven.

Perhaps it does not matter what we believe about Jesus. I do not know.

I do know that Eph 4:18 indicates that some are separated from the life of God because of what they believe. So I also (as do you) take this subject very seriously.

[ralittlefield]

why do you ignore the other verses from John

1:18*No man has seen God at any time; the only-begotten god who is in the bosom [position] with the Father is the one that has explained him.

Or all those verses in chapter 1 where he is called the lamb of God

Or this from chapter 20

16*Jesus said to her: “Mary!” Upon turning around, she said to him, in Hebrew: “Rab‧bo′ni!” (which means “Teacher!”) 17*Jesus said to her: “Stop clinging to me. For I have not yet ascended to the Father. But be on your way to my brothers and say to them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and YOUR Father and to my God and YOUR God.’”

I do not ignore them. I just do not see how they are in conflict with the doctrine of the Trinity.

[ralittlefield]

Bump for Ralph

I don't mean to be rude, but I need to know where you are going before I agree to follow.

[DRS]

I don't mean to be rude, but I need to know where you are going before I agree to follow.

It is a simple question

[DRS]

I do not ignore them. I just do not see how they are in conflict with the doctrine of the Trinity.

To bad the trinity does conflict with the bible and such verses

[Angryamerican]

Now I'm confused, AA... what verse did I post?

I think you were looking at the verse HisServant posted (John 1:1). I guess I should have made the quote more obvious. I just put quotes around it.

Of course, several have shown that John 1:1 is only controversial in the eyes of those who will not accept the deity of Christ. :)

Many object because it was wrong.

[Angryamerican]

It's pretty simple. ONE God, ONE son, ONE spirit. 'thout shalt not have any other gods before me". .............ONE God, .....no other God, gods. Jesus is the SON of God, not God. ONE!

Sounds like three to me.

[Angryamerican]

What does it mean to be The Son of God?


Not an adopted son like us, but THE SON OF GOD?


I do not understand how God's Son can be less than God.

So you believe there is two Gods ?

[Angryamerican]

Jesus is the most amazing man that ever lived and he is pretty super in what he did for me.

He is NOT an angel.

He is,was and always will be a man.


1Ti 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

Interesting warrior, but what about this scripture ?

Joh 17:5 And now Father, glorify Me with Yourself with the glory which I had with You before the world was.

And who was God speaking to here ?

Gen 1:26 And God said, Let Us make man in Our image, after Our likeness. And let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the heavens, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over all the creepers creeping on the earth.

[ralittlefield]

Interesting warrior, but what about this scripture ?

Joh 17:5 And now Father, glorify Me with Yourself with the glory which I had with You before the world was.

And who was God speaking to here ?

Gen 1:26 And God said, Let Us make man in Our image, after Our likeness. And let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the heavens, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over all the creepers creeping on the earth.

I believe that it is the Triune God in both verses.

[Angryamerican]

I believe that it is the Triune God in both verses.

So God was talking to himself ?

[Angryamerican]

I believe that it is the Triune God in both verses.

What roles, do each person of the trinity have ?

The father is God,The son is the mediator between man and God,What is the Holy Spirit ?

[lawandorder]

But there is only ONE God................He has a son, and a comforter, the Holy Spirit. Yes, that is three, but not three in one being.