Should You Believe In The Trinity?

[Angryamerican]

Are you sure, AA, that the "sons of God" were angels?

John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

I think so, Job also referred to angels as sons of God. This is where i differ from the Jewish beliefs.

[Angryamerican]

Please show some sort of evidence that Lot knew they were angels.

Why did lot refer to them as lords ? Why did he bow to them ?

Gen 19:1 And there came two angels to Sodom at evening. And Lot sat in the gate of Sodom. And Lot rose up to meet them when he saw them. And he bowed himself with his face toward the ground,
Gen 19:2 and said, Behold now, my lords, please turn into your servant's house and stay all night, and wash your feet, and you shall rise up early and go your way. And they said, No, but we will stay in the street.

[lwdc]

Jesus was noted for teaching in parables and requiring His students to think.

Seldom did He make clear statements.

Paul and John both were inspired by the Holy Spirit to record that Jesus is God.

Thomas called Him "My Lord and my God".

If you chose to reject the teachings of John and Paul, and the clear statement of Thomas, then so be it.Jesus was clear about who He is too.

[ralittlefield]

Jesus was clear about who He is too.

It would seem that He was clear to the disciples.

[lwdc]

I asked ...............


"Show me where Jesus claimed being God or equal to God."


You reply with the same 2 verses I just dealt with so I guess other then those you have no foundation for your view that Jesus is equal to God,and much less saying he was God.Jesus said He is God. Everyone who heard Him knew what He was saying. Those who believe Him rightfully (according to their belief) worship Him. Those who do not believe Him rightfully (according to their belief) accuse Him of blasphemy of the highest order and deserving of death.

Jesus did not say the sort of things that you assert, things such as "my Father and Me, we think alike and got common goals", or, "before Abraham was, I am a carpenter from Nazareth."

Saying things like this is not grounds for one to be stoned.

Evidently, everyone understood what Jesus was saying... and reacted accordingly... except you.

[lwdc]

It would seem that He was clear to the disciples.and every Christian who reveres Him.

Billions of them.

[ralittlefield]

and every Christian who reveres Him.

Billions of them.

It does amaze me that someone could read passages like this one from Col 1 and come away doubting the deity of Christ.

15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him. 17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. 18 And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy. 19 For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, 20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.


(Warrior will be here shortly to tell us that this only refers to the creation of the church.)

[lwdc]

it does amaze me that someone could read passages lie this one from col 1 and come away doubting the deity of christ.

15 he is the image of the invisible god, the firstborn over all creation. 16 for by him all things were created: Things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him. 17 he is before all things, and in him all things hold together. 18 and he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy. 19 for god was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, 20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.
+1

[drmilo]

You are so not right and if you study it you will see that God never said he was I AM..................

While the Greek phrase in John does mean “I am,” ...........

the Hebrew phrase in Exodus actually means “to be” or “to become.”

In other words God is saying, “I will be what I will be.” Thus the “I am” in Exodus is actually a mistranslation of the Hebrew text, so the fact that Jesus said “I am” did not make him God.

And the greek translation of the term in Exodus (translated by Jewish rabbis in the Septuagint) is ego eimi (which means "I am") There are no words in Hebrew that mean "I am" (according to the Hebrew posters here) therefore, the closest translation from Hebrew to Greek for those words is ego eimi (I am). It is safe to assume that Jesus was not speaking greek, but Hebrew, as he was addressing the Pharasees, and thus, since there is no Hebrew for "I am" and because the Jews at the time picked up stones to stone him for claiming to be God (is claiming pre-existance reason for blasphemy) then Jesus must have said what God said in exodus.

[DispensationalJim]

And the greek translation of the term in Exodus (translated by Jewish rabbis in the Septuagint) is ego eimi (which means "I am") There are no words in Hebrew that mean "I am" (according to the Hebrew posters here) therefore, the closest translation from Hebrew to Greek for those words is ego eimi (I am). It is safe to assume that Jesus was not speaking greek, but Hebrew, as he was addressing the Pharasees, and thus, since there is no Hebrew for "I am" and because the Jews at the time picked up stones to stone him for claiming to be God (is claiming pre-existance reason for blasphemy) then Jesus must have said what God said in exodus.

Excellent explanation, dr.

[ralittlefield]

Excellent explanation, dr.

As always!

I alway enjoy reading posts by you, dr, and Tusonjim. Thanks to all three of you!

[Angryamerican]

It does amaze me that someone could read passages like this one from Col 1 and come away doubting the deity of Christ.

15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him. 17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. 18 And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy. 19 For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, 20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.


(Warrior will be here shortly to tell us that this only refers to the creation of the church.)

Is man in the image of God ?

[DRS]

About the title of "saviour," DRS... I just checked every use of the word "saviour" in my Accordance Bible program. Out of the 37 times it appears in the whole Bible, I saw only two instances where it was not speaking of God as THE Saviour or OUR Saviour.

But, the verses I quoted from Titus speak ONLY of OUR SAVIOUR. Here they are again:



Please note, DRS, that three (3) separate times, Paul calls God OUR SAVIOUR and each time, He also calls Jesus Christ OUR SAVIOUR.

How can you "get around" that FACT??

It seems quite simple to me...

JESUS CHRIST IS GOD!!

Who provided the sacrifice, God did just as Abraham provided Issac

Who did the work by displaying faith and obedience to God to make possible the saving of mankind, Jesus

Just as a servent and creation of God Adam lacked faith disobeyed and sentenced all men to to death so the scales of justice had to be balanced by another creation and servent of God who was obedient and showed faith gave all the chance to live

[Reeder]

That makes sense to me, and i feel that it could because we are so sinful.

That is why i have a problem with satan being evil and sinful, but yet God still allowed him in heaven and even in Gods presence.

I understand what you're saying, but then, Satan doesn't have a body. He is not "mortal" as we are.

[Warrior4God]

Jesus was noted for teaching in parables and requiring His students to think.

Seldom did He make clear statements.

Paul and John both were inspired by the Holy Spirit to record that Jesus is God.

Thomas called Him "My Lord and my God".

If you chose to reject the teachings of John and Paul, and the clear statement of Thomas, then so be it.

"Show me where Jesus claimed being God or equal to God."

[Warrior4God]

Jesus said He is God. Everyone who heard Him knew what He was saying. Those who believe Him rightfully (according to their belief) worship Him. Those who do not believe Him rightfully (according to their belief) accuse Him of blasphemy of the highest order and deserving of death.

Jesus did not say the sort of things that you assert, things such as "my Father and Me, we think alike and got common goals", or, "before Abraham was, I am a carpenter from Nazareth."

Saying things like this is not grounds for one to be stoned.

Evidently, everyone understood what Jesus was saying... and reacted accordingly... except you.

"Show me where Jesus claimed being God or equal to God."

[Warrior4God]

Paul and John both were inspired by the Holy Spirit to record that Jesus is God.



Where did Paul and John say "Jesus is God"


Paul and John refered to Jesus many times but never did they say"Jesus is God"

Where are those three words located?

[Warrior4God]

DJim said "I just checked every use of the word "saviour" in my Accordance Bible program. Out of the 37 times it appears in the whole Bible, I saw only two instances where it was not speaking of God as THE Saviour or OUR Saviour."




2Ki 13:5 (And the LORD gave Israel a saviour, so that they went out from under the hand of the Syrians: and the children of Israel dwelt in their tents, as beforetime.


Isa 19:20 And it shall be for a sign and for a witness unto the LORD of hosts in the land of Egypt: for they shall cry unto the LORD because of the oppressors, and he shall send them a saviour, and a great one, and he shall deliver them.

Neh 9:27 Therefore thou deliveredst them into the hand of their enemies, who vexed them: and in the time of their trouble, when they cried unto thee, thou heardest them from heaven; and according to thy manifold mercies thou gavest them saviours, who saved them out of the hand of their enemies.


Oba 1:21 And saviours shall come up on mount Zion to judge the mount of Esau; and the kingdom shall be the LORD'S.


The term “savior” is used of many people in the Bible. This is hard to see in the English versions because, when it is used of men, the translators almost always translated it as “deliverer.”............



I will post some of these that use the exact same hebrew word thats translated deliverer.

Jdg 3:9 And when the children of Israel cried unto the LORD, the LORD raised up a deliverer to the children of Israel, who delivered them, even Othniel the son of Kenaz, Caleb's younger brother.



Jdg 3:15 But when the children of Israel cried unto the LORD, the LORD raised them up a deliverer, Ehud the son of Gera, a Benjamite, a man lefthanded: and by him the children of Israel sent a present unto Eglon the king of Moab.



There are more I believe and when I have time will post them.

[ralittlefield]

Is man in the image of God ?

The Bible says that man was created in the image of God, but that has nothing to do with the passage that I posted from Col 1.


That passage says that Jesus is the image of God, then continues by crediting Him with the creation of the universe. That is a lot different than being created in the image of God.

What does the fact that we are created in God's image mean to you?

What qualities of God do we have? Jesus can give life, forgive sins, create the universe. Can we do any of that?

[ralittlefield]

Where did Paul and John say "Jesus is God"


Paul and John refered to Jesus many times but never did they say"Jesus is God"

Where are those three words located?

John 1

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.


Phil 2
6 Who, being in very nature God,


John 20

28Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.


Pretty clear language. Not hard to understand.

[lwdc]

"Show me where Jesus claimed being God or equal to God."We did.

You seemed to have missed it.

[lwdc]

"Show me where Jesus claimed being God or equal to God."Christians and Jews both know that is what He claimed.

What religion are you?

[DispensationalJim]

DJim said "I just checked every use of the word "saviour" in my Accordance Bible program. Out of the 37 times it appears in the whole Bible, I saw only two instances where it was not speaking of God as THE Saviour or OUR Saviour."




2Ki 13:5 (And the LORD gave Israel a saviour, so that they went out from under the hand of the Syrians: and the children of Israel dwelt in their tents, as beforetime.


Isa 19:20 And it shall be for a sign and for a witness unto the LORD of hosts in the land of Egypt: for they shall cry unto the LORD because of the oppressors, and he shall send them a saviour, and a great one, and he shall deliver them.

Neh 9:27 Therefore thou deliveredst them into the hand of their enemies, who vexed them: and in the time of their trouble, when they cried unto thee, thou heardest them from heaven; and according to thy manifold mercies thou gavest them saviours, who saved them out of the hand of their enemies.


Oba 1:21 And saviours shall come up on mount Zion to judge the mount of Esau; and the kingdom shall be the LORD'S.


The term “savior” is used of many people in the Bible. This is hard to see in the English versions because, when it is used of men, the translators almost always translated it as “deliverer.”............



I will post some of these that use the exact same hebrew word thats translated deliverer.

Jdg 3:9 And when the children of Israel cried unto the LORD, the LORD raised up a deliverer to the children of Israel, who delivered them, even Othniel the son of Kenaz, Caleb's younger brother.



Jdg 3:15 But when the children of Israel cried unto the LORD, the LORD raised them up a deliverer, Ehud the son of Gera, a Benjamite, a man lefthanded: and by him the children of Israel sent a present unto Eglon the king of Moab.



There are more I believe and when I have time will post them.

Sorry, DRS.

I didn't think to check the word "saviourS." And, BTW, congratulations, DRS, you found BOTH of the verses that contained the word "saviours". :)

But, my point was that the Bible refers to Jesus Christ as THE SAVIOUR AND the Bible also says that GOD is THE SAVIOUR in the same epistle. Obviously, Paul had no problem with the deity of Christ. He also had no problem realizing that Jesus was a man while here on the earth.

That reminds me of an old saying: "The Son of God became the Son of Man so the sons of men could become the sons of God."

But, do you see the difference, DRS?

Anyone can be "A" saviour (small "s"), but only ONE can be THE SAVIOUR. That one is God and that one is Jesus Christ, therefore IMO that one Saviour is logically GOD THE SON!

[lucky]

So now you ask me to do your homework for you ?

I suggest you read this thread, i have put many thoughts on the issue in this thread.

How do you explain Jews now holding the same views they did then ?

I am not Jewish so you would probably have a better understanding of Jewish culture then i . But what does that have to do with my comments to you ?

Because you're quoting phrases from the Bible that are placed within a historical culture and had meanings different from the readers now days.

And no, you are not doing my homework for me. I am trying to get you to understand the basic step in interpreting Scripture. It is that, we should make every attempt to understand the Bible within the culture it was written and take into consideration their worldview or the historical situation the letter, poem, narrative, etc...... was written in.

In a thread with 15,000 post it would take a great deal of time to search for your posts. The reason I asked how you understood the culture of the NT was many, on this forum, claim special knowledge or they believe they can disprove the trustworthiness of the Bible. However, most have no idea what it means to dig deeper into God's Word by showing the proper respect for the original languages and the culture the Bible was written in. As well, the reader must take into consideration that they might be wrong when they explore the text. Remember, doctrine is a great director and a terrible task master (source unknown).

[DRS]

Sorry, DRS.

I didn't think to check the word "saviourS." And, BTW, congratulations, DRS, you found BOTH of the verses that contained the word "saviours". :)

But, my point was that the Bible refers to Jesus Christ as THE SAVIOUR AND the Bible also says that GOD is THE SAVIOUR in the same epistle. Obviously, Paul had no problem with the deity of Christ. He also had no problem realizing that Jesus was a man while here on the earth.

That reminds me of an old saying: "The Son of God became the Son of Man so the sons of men could become the sons of God."

But, do you see the difference, DRS?

Anyone can be "A" saviour (small "s"), but only ONE can be THE SAVIOUR. That one is God and that one is Jesus Christ, therefore IMO that one Saviour is logically GOD THE SON!
You seem to be really confused by the term the thinking it means something

It only means something special when there is a title be used for two people and it needs to distingush between the two

For instance John 1:1 where you have the God and God

Or Isaiah which you have quoted before

[Warrior4God]

Christians and Jews both know that is what He claimed.

What religion are you?

Christian

I am not a member of any denomination.

I have a fellowship in my home and also fellowship with another fellowship in my area and they come to mine as well at times.

[Warrior4God]

We did.

You seemed to have missed it.

I guess so..........went back and looked and still don't see where you posted verses that Jesus claimed he was God or equal to God.


I explained why I think the 2 verses you posted don't say what you think they say but you have your opinion and I have mine.

[DispensationalJim]

You seem to be really confused by the term the thinking it means something

It only means something special when there is a title be used for two people and it needs to distingush between the two

For instance John 1:1 where you have the God and God

Or Isaiah which you have quoted before

That's odd, DRS. Webster seems to think "the" has a meaning:

the: "Used before nouns, with a specifying or particularizing effect, as opposed to the indefinite or generalizing force of the indefinite article "a" or "an"..."

For example, if I say "I have THE apple", that means I have THE ONLY ONE apple under consideration. That is, there is no other apple like this apple.

The only "the" in John 1:1 (in my Bible) refers to THE Word:
• John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

I won't delve into Isaiah any more on this thread, since Mike keeps coming on and making an issue of the Jewish view of it.

[gpd®]

That's odd, DRS. Webster seems to think "the" has a meaning:

the: "Used before nouns, with a specifying or particularizing effect, as opposed to the indefinite or generalizing force of the indefinite article "a" or "an"..."

For example, if I say "I have THE apple", that means I have THE ONLY ONE apple under consideration. That is, there is no other apple like this apple.

The only "the" in John 1:1 (in my Bible) refers to THE Word:
• John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

I won't delve into Isaiah any more on this thread, since Mike keeps coming on and making an issue of the Jewish view of it.

Or as Tony Danza said in an interview:
We say "THE LASAGNA" not lasagna.

At home, "we ask who is going to cook THE TURKEY" for the holidays not, "who is going to cook turkey?"

[lwdc]

Christian

I am not a member of any denomination.
What do you mean by, "Christian"?

[DRS]

That's odd, DRS. Webster seems to think "the" has a meaning:

the: "Used before nouns, with a specifying or particularizing effect, as opposed to the indefinite or generalizing force of the indefinite article "a" or "an"..."

For example, if I say "I have THE apple", that means I have THE ONLY ONE apple under consideration. That is, there is no other apple like this apple.

The only "the" in John 1:1 (in my Bible) refers to THE Word:
• John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

I won't delve into Isaiah any more on this thread, since Mike keeps coming on and making an issue of the Jewish view of it.

You should be more honest about John 1:1 when there is ample evidence that there is a the before one instance of God in John 1:1 in the manuscripts

Secondly Jesus is the only saviour for Christians as one does not come to God THE Saviour of all including Jesus in any other name

Who made Jesus a saviour

23*From the offspring of this [man] according to his promise God has brought to Israel a savior, Jesus,

oh yeah God

[DispensationalJim]

You should be more honest about John 1:1 when there is ample evidence that there is a the before one instance of God in John 1:1 in the manuscripts

Secondly Jesus is the only saviour for Christians as one does not come to God THE Saviour of all including Jesus in any other name

Who made Jesus a saviour

23*From the offspring of this [man] according to his promise God has brought to Israel a savior, Jesus,

oh yeah God

OK, I'll be honest with you, DRS. You and a few others THINK that there should be another "the" in John 1:1. But again, to be honest, my evidence says that you are wrong.

How is that for being honest?

Show me ALL the translations that have put a "the" where YOU think it should be, please. How many are there? Two or three including the NWT? Which manuscripts have that "the" where you want it? Name them, please.

Yes, DRS, Jesus Christ is THE ONE AND ONLY SAVIOUR.

And, finally, would it be too much to ask to give the book and chapter of that final quote? Thank you very much.

[DRS]

I think until you have to quit asking for chapter and verse for quoted scriptures you should not be talking about manuscripts or translation

I can usually find any scripture so long as it was not added to a later manuscript due to the fact I read and study the bible and bible history everyday

[DRS]

Jesus by the way is not the ultimate saviour as he praye to another who could save him from death

7*In the days of his flesh [Christ] offered up supplications and also petitions to the One who was able to save him out of death, with strong outcries and tears, and he was favorably heard for his godly fear

[tracifish]

I think until you have to quit asking for chapter and verse for quoted scriptures you should not be talking about manuscripts or translation

I can usually find any scripture so long as it was not added to a later manuscript due to the fact I read and study the bible and bible history everyday

DRS,

The problem is your translation is just like an NIV, only re-worded. I suspect it is a translation of another faulty translation, translated from from a faulty set of manuscripts.

[Warrior4God]

What do you mean by, "Christian"?

I believe in Jesus Christ.


???????????????????????????????????


Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Rom 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

[lwdc]

I believe in Jesus Christ.
So?

So do people who are not Christians.

[Warrior4God]

So?

So do people who are not Christians.

ok

[lwdc]

okSo what do you mean by, "Christian"?

[DispensationalJim]

I think until you have to quit asking for chapter and verse for quoted scriptures you should not be talking about manuscripts or translation

I can usually find any scripture so long as it was not added to a later manuscript due to the fact I read and study the bible and bible history everyday

So just because you think you are too busy to take the time to give the book and chapter for everyone who might be reading your post like all the rest of us do, the rest of us must then take our own time to find the verse you quoted??? Sorry, DRS, but that just isn't very considerate IMO.

Since I believe (as you well know) that your translation is from the wrong manuscripts, it makes it tougher for me (and others, I suspect) to figure out what words have been changed in your "version" in order to find it to check context, etc.

May I ask you what is so hard for you, DRS, about giving the book and chapter for the rest of us???? Many others have asked you nicely to provide that simple info. I just don't get it...

You accuse me of not being honest, so I'll be real honest here, DRS. I think you just don't want to "waste" your time on us. You have previously admitted that you are too busy to type more carefully and edit your posts, so I guess you must not think we are important enough to warrant your spending an extra few seconds to make your posts more understandable. How's that, DRS? Honest enough?

[Warrior4God]

So what do you mean by, "Christian"?

What do you mean by Christian?


I believe in Jesus Christ my Lord and saviour,the Son of the most high GOD,the Almighty, and believe God raised him from the dead and he is the head of the one body and through him I have salvation ,redemption,sanctification,justification,righteous ness,and peace with God.
I believe he is seated at Gods right hand making intercession for me and one day will return and will meet him face to face.

I owe him my life beause he always did Gods will and he gave his life(in every aspect and part of his life) for me.

I am a Christian ....................filled with The Holy Spirit and power and I can do all things through Christ which strengthens me.

Jesus is the only man who is my Savior, my Redeemer, my Mediator, my Lord, my constant Companion, my Best Friend, my Big Brother, my Hope, my Peace, my Joy, and my shining light and example to follow in all of lifes endeavours.

He is the Lover of my souls and that is why I love him and confess him as Lord (Rom. 10:9).




I am a Christian.




Are you a Christian? and what do YOU mean by Christian?

[lwdc]

What do you mean by Christian?


I believe in Jesus Christ my Lord and saviour,the Son of the most high GOD,the Almighty, and believe God raised him from the dead and he is the head of the one body and through him I have salvation ,redemption,sanctification,justification,righteous ness,and peace with God.
I believe he is seated at Gods right hand making intercession for me and one day will return and will meet him face to face.

I owe him my life beause he always did Gods will and he gave his life(in every aspect and part of his life) for me.

I am a Christian ....................filled with The Holy Spirit and power and I can do all things through Christ which strengthens me.

Jesus is the only man who is my Savior, my Redeemer, my Mediator, my Lord, my constant Companion, my Best Friend, my Big Brother, my Hope, my Peace, my Joy, and my shining light and example to follow in all of lifes endeavours.

He is the Lover of my souls and that is why I love him and confess him as Lord (Rom. 10:9).




I am a Christian.




Are you a Christian? and what do YOU mean by Christian?Christians believe in the Deity of Christ. That's why they're called Christians.

[Tucson Jim]

you are absolutely right.

If "Jesus" was meant to be so central in Judaism, G-D would have explicitly told the jews about it in the Torah.

A dangerous assumption . . .

[Tucson Jim]

I've been away but I am heartened to see this thread finally back on track!

Good job everyone!

[Tucson Jim]

Christians believe in the Deity of Christ. That's why they're called Christians.

:clap: Amen!

[DispensationalJim]

I've been away but I am heartened to see this thread finally back on track!

Good job everyone!

Great to have you back, TJim!

Yes, it is good to have the thread back... so, let's resume the debate!

[DRS]

Christians believe in the Deity of Christ. That's why they're called Christians.

Back that up biblically

[Warrior4God]

Christians believe in the Deity of Christ. That's why they're called Christians.

No thats your opinion ..........so you don't think I am Christian?

I take serious offense at your arrogance to even hint that I am not Christian.


Show me in scripture that I am not Christian because I don't believe he is God.

You are about to get my motor running.


Jesus will do the judging on this and will surely not be you now or later.

Who made you judge of what or who is the standard for a Christian.


Just because one goes to a trinitarian church or follows its creed does not make one a Christian.................Its in faith in Jesus Christ and not just what church or creed you follow.

Just because one goes to church does not a Christian make.


Your view is exactly the view that has caused division in the body in my humble opinion.

You have no right to judge.

I would never even try to guess who is not Christian without revelation from God to discern this and no matter the creed or view I will believe what anyone tells me about their profession of faith and accept them as my brother or sister and that includes you IF that is what you profess,whether you have the same view towards me.

I pray God will teach guide and reveal what humbleness is about in the body of Christ.

[Warrior4God]

:clap: Amen!



Originally Posted by lwdc
Christians believe in the Deity of Christ. That's why they're called Christians.



I thought you at least believed that I was a Christian TJim.

I am deeply saddened by this.

Jesus Christ has saved me and if you can't accept that thats fine but I know him and know what he did for me no matter what your opinion is or others who have the nerve to say I am not Christian without a single scripture to prove otherwise.


You may not like it or may not like me which seems to be the case but to all who doubt it...................

I am a believing Christian.

[lwdc]

No thats your opinion ..........so you don't think I am Christian?


Show me in scripture that I am not Christian because I don't believe he is God.

You are about to get my motor running."Christians" is not a biblical term. It is the English word to describe those who believe in the Deity of Christ.

[Snow]

No thats your opinion ..........so you don't think I am Christian?

I take serious offense at your arrogance to even hint that I am not Christian.


Show me in scripture that I am not Christian because I don't believe he is God.

You are about to get my motor running.



Let me get this straight... you are bent because you think that someone might opine that you aren't Christian.

Oh the irony.

Do you know what irony is?

[Snow]

Christians believe in the Deity of Christ. That's why they're called Christians.

What about Christ's deity do one need to believe to be Christian?

Are JW's, who, I think, believe Christ is a god but not God, Christian?

What is your authoritative source for your claims - please be specific.

[Meriweather]

Let me get this straight... you are bent because you think that someone might opine that you aren't Christian.

Oh the irony.

Do you know what irony is?

Does it often accompany bitterness?

[lwdc]

No thats your opinion ..........so you don't think I am Christian?

I take serious offense at your arrogance to even hint that I am not Christian.


Show me in scripture that I am not Christian because I don't believe he is God.

You are about to get my motor running.


Jesus will do the judging on this and will surely not be you now or later.

Who made you judge of what or who is the standard for a Christian.


Just because one goes to a trinitarian church or follows its creed does not make one a Christian.................Its in faith in Jesus Christ and not just what church or creed you follow.

Just because one goes to church does not a Christian make.


Your view is exactly the view that has caused division in the body in my humble opinion.

You have no right to judge.

I would never even try to guess who is not Christian without revelation from God to discern this and no matter the creed or view I will believe what anyone tells me about their profession of faith and accept them as my brother or sister and that includes you IF that is what you profess,whether you have the same view towards me.

I pray God will teach guide and reveal what humbleness is about in the body of Christ.Muslims believe in Jesus Christ too. They just don't think He is Deity. And they aren't Christian.

[lwdc]

What about Christ's deity do one need to believe to be Christian?

Are JW's, who, I think, believe Christ is a god but not God, Christian?

What is your authoritative source for your claims - please be specific.That's what I've been asking W4G. You should ask him too.

Thanks for dropping in, btw.

[Warrior4God]

"Christians" is not a biblical term. It is the English word to describe those who believe in the Deity of Christ.

show me where webster agrees.

Christian. A follower of Christ. So called first at Antioch (Acts 11. 26).

Act 11:26 And when he had found him, he brought him unto Antioch. And it came to pass, that a whole year they assembled themselves with the church, and taught much people. And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch.

Act 26:28 Then Agrippa said unto Paul, Almost thou persuadest me to be a Christian.

1Pe 4:16 Yet if any man suffer as a Christian, let him not be ashamed; but let him glorify God on this behalf.

It is a biblical term and one I use to describe my walk with Christ.

You seem to be good at sticking your foot in your mouth.


Definition: Christian
Christian
Adjective
1. (religion) relating to or characteristic of Christianity; "Christian rites".

2. Following the teachings or manifesting the qualities or spirit of Jesus Christ.
http://www.websters-online-dictionary.org/definition/christian



Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1) - Cite This Source - Share This
Chris·tian /ˈkrɪstʃən/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[kris-chuhn] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–adjective 1. of, pertaining to, or derived from Jesus Christ or His teachings: a Christian faith.
2. of, pertaining to, believing in, or belonging to the religion based on the teachings of Jesus Christ: Spain is a Christian country.
3. of or pertaining to Christians: many Christian deaths in the Crusades.
4. exhibiting a spirit proper to a follower of Jesus Christ; Christlike: She displayed true Christian charity.
5. decent; respectable: They gave him a good Christian burial.
6. human; not brutal; humane: Such behavior isn't Christian.
–noun 7. a person who believes in Jesus Christ; adherent of Christianity.
8. a person who exemplifies in his or her life the teachings of Christ: He died like a true Christian.
9. a member of any of certain Protestant churches, as the Disciples of Christ and the Plymouth Brethren.




American Heritage Dictionary - Cite This Source - Share This Chris·tian (krĭs'chən) Pronunciation Key
adj.
Professing belief in Jesus as Christ or following the religion based on the life and teachings of Jesus.
Relating to or derived from Jesus or Jesus's teachings.
Manifesting the qualities or spirit of Jesus; Christlike.
Relating to or characteristic of Christianity or its adherents.
Showing a loving concern for others; humane.


n.
One who professes belief in Jesus as Christ or follows the religion based on the life and teachings of Jesus.
One who lives according to the teachings of Jesus.


WordNet - Cite This Source - Share This christian

adjective
1. relating to or characteristic of Christianity; "Christian rites"
2. following the teachings or manifesting the qualities or spirit of Jesus Christ [ant: unchristian]




I can give you 100's of scripture to show where I have the AUTHORITY to call myself a Christian and do not believe you cannot nor have you any authority given to you by God to judge whether I am unless God revealed it to you.


Did God reveal this to you?


You need to take a look inside yourself and see what Christ would or say in this matter.

I have been called out before the foundations of the world to stand approved of God and not men.

[Warrior4God]

Muslims believe in Jesus Christ too. They just don't think He is Deity. And they aren't Christian.

Dude you back off NOW...........I have stated my confession of Christ Jesus as Lord and there is no scripture that says I am not because I don't think he is God.

Back OFF.

You are being disrespectful in alligning my view with that of a religion which is not Christian.


No wonder there are so many different denominations as people like you have resorted to being judge and jury of mens hearts.

What denomination are you?

This may be a telling clue to your arrogance,not sure but maybe.

[lwdc]

show me where webster agrees.

Christian. A follower of Christ. So called first at Antioch (Acts 11. 26).

Act 11:26 And when he had found him, he brought him unto Antioch. And it came to pass, that a whole year they assembled themselves with the church, and taught much people. And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch.

Act 26:28 Then Agrippa said unto Paul, Almost thou persuadest me to be a Christian.

1Pe 4:16 Yet if any man suffer as a Christian, let him not be ashamed; but let him glorify God on this behalf.

It is a biblical term and one I use to describe my walk with Christ.

You seem to be good at sticking your foot in your mouth.


Definition: Christian
Christian
Adjective
1. (religion) relating to or characteristic of Christianity; "Christian rites".

2. Following the teachings or manifesting the qualities or spirit of Jesus Christ.
http://www.websters-online-dictionary.org/definition/christian



Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1) - Cite This Source - Share This
Chris·tian /ˈkrɪstʃən/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[kris-chuhn] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–adjective 1. of, pertaining to, or derived from Jesus Christ or His teachings: a Christian faith.
2. of, pertaining to, believing in, or belonging to the religion based on the teachings of Jesus Christ: Spain is a Christian country.
3. of or pertaining to Christians: many Christian deaths in the Crusades.
4. exhibiting a spirit proper to a follower of Jesus Christ; Christlike: She displayed true Christian charity.
5. decent; respectable: They gave him a good Christian burial.
6. human; not brutal; humane: Such behavior isn't Christian.
–noun 7. a person who believes in Jesus Christ; adherent of Christianity.
8. a person who exemplifies in his or her life the teachings of Christ: He died like a true Christian.
9. a member of any of certain Protestant churches, as the Disciples of Christ and the Plymouth Brethren.




American Heritage Dictionary - Cite This Source - Share This Chris·tian (krĭs'chən) Pronunciation Key
adj.
Professing belief in Jesus as Christ or following the religion based on the life and teachings of Jesus.
Relating to or derived from Jesus or Jesus's teachings.
Manifesting the qualities or spirit of Jesus; Christlike.
Relating to or characteristic of Christianity or its adherents.
Showing a loving concern for others; humane.


n.
One who professes belief in Jesus as Christ or follows the religion based on the life and teachings of Jesus.
One who lives according to the teachings of Jesus.


WordNet - Cite This Source - Share This christian

adjective
1. relating to or characteristic of Christianity; "Christian rites"
2. following the teachings or manifesting the qualities or spirit of Jesus Christ [ant: unchristian]




I can give you 100's of scripture to show where I have the AUTHORITY to call myself a Christian and do not believe you cannot nor have you any authority given to you by God to judge whether I am unless God revealed it to you.


Did God reveal this to you?


You need to take a look inside yourself and see what Christ would or say in this matter.

I have been called out before the foundations of the world to stand approved of God and not men.That's fabulous, W4G.

WTG.

[lwdc]

Dude you back off NOW...........I have stated my confession of Christ Jesus as Lord and there is no scripture that says I am not because I don't think he is God.

Back OFF.

You are being disrespectful in alligning my view with that of a religion which is not Christian.


No wonder there are so many different denominations as people like you have resorted to being judge and jury of mens hearts.

What denomination are you?

This may be a telling clue to your arrogance,not sure but maybe.Muslims believe in Jesus Christ. So do Jews. So did the Romans. So what?

None of them believe He is Deity.

[Warrior4God]

Let me get this straight... you are bent because you think that someone might opine that you aren't Christian.

Oh the irony.

Do you know what irony is?

Make your point.

I am defending my profession as a Christian and take issue with a person judging what the Word of God has said concerning me.

Is it your view that I am wrong?

[Warrior4God]

Muslims believe in Jesus Christ. So do Jews. So did the Romans. So what?

None of them believe He is Deity.

None of them call him Lord.

[God is My Rock]

Make your point.

I am defending my profession as a Christian and take issue with a person judging what the Word of God has said concerning me.

Is it your view that I am wrong?

Unfortunately, Snow has a point, who cares whether someone else thinks you are a christian?

What does matter is your testimony.

I believe in your relationship with Jesus Christ.

Jesus and God both know that none of us have all the answers.

What they care about is who is your Lord, who do you love and follow. Who do you place your trust and salvation in.

Who is the author of salvation, and who the path for that salvation.

In the strictest of terms, we all agree on these principles.

[God is My Rock]

None of them call him Lord.

Take heart my brother.


God's peace unto you.

[Warrior4God]

Not sure why this bothers me so much............maybe its the fact that unity was being seen in this thread and now it appears to diminish.
Maybe its the fact that Christ gave his life for me and God called me into the family and I have spent over 35 years standing on the promises of Christ my Lord.


I enjoyed this when we could debate as Christians but when you no longer view me that way I need no longer participate.


God bless you all in the name of Christ Jesus my Lord.


I would truly like to know by EVERYONE in this thread the answer to one question..................


Do you view me as a Christian and your brother in Christ?


I am over being upset over this and would like an honest answer by everyone.

please.............I will think no less of any of you for truthfully answering.before I leave you all with this once great debate.

[lwdc]

None of them call him Lord.Irrelevant.


A squire calls a knight "Lord".
A serf calls his lessor "Lord".
A tenant calls his the property owner "Land-lord".
Every member of every pagan royal court calls the king, "Lord".

NONE of the above are deities, let alone Deity.

[Meriweather]

Not sure why this bothers me so much............maybe its the fact that unity was being seen in this thread and now it appears to diminish.
Maybe its the fact that Christ gave his life for me and God called me into the family and I have spent over 35 years standing on the promises of Christ my Lord.


I enjoyed this when we could debate as Christians but when you no longer view me that way I need no longer participate.


God bless you all in the name of Christ Jesus my Lord.


I would truly like to know by EVERYONE in this thread the answer to one question..................


Do you view me as a Christian and your brother in Christ?


I am over being upset over this and would like an honest answer by everyone.

please.............I will think no less of any of you for truthfully answering.before I leave you all with this once great debate.

Warrior, I don't know you well enough to even remember your denomination. My definition of a Christian is one who follows the teachings and ways of Christ. Above all, a Christian is one who professes to be Christian.

We all have different beliefs, and as another thread reminded me recently, we cannot all be right. However, what we all can be are seekers of the truth.

[Warrior4God]

Irrelevant.


A squire calls a knight "Lord".
A serf calls his lessor "Lord".
A tenant calls his the property owner "Land-lord".
Every member of every pagan royal court calls the king, "Lord".

NONE of the above are deities, let alone Deity.

You made your point..........but YOU know what I mean.

Just drop it please.

[lwdc]

You made your point..........but YOU know what I mean.

Just drop it please.No, I'm sorry, but I really don't know what you mean.

Whatever it is, I'd be happy to drop it. No problem.

[God is My Rock]

Irrelevant.


A squire calls a knight "Lord".
A serf calls his lessor "Lord".
A tenant calls his the property owner "Land-lord".
Every member of every pagan royal court calls the king, "Lord".

NONE of the above are deities, let alone Deity.

Not sure who you think you are, but you IMO are in danger of blaspheming the Holy Spirit.

Who do you think you are exactly to question someone else's salvation?

Where in scripture does it explicitly say that the definition of the word Christian is tied in any way to the Trinity, or stating that Jesus is God?

Shame on you.

[God is My Rock]

Not sure why this bothers me so much............maybe its the fact that unity was being seen in this thread and now it appears to diminish.
Maybe its the fact that Christ gave his life for me and God called me into the family and I have spent over 35 years standing on the promises of Christ my Lord.


I enjoyed this when we could debate as Christians but when you no longer view me that way I need no longer participate.


God bless you all in the name of Christ Jesus my Lord.


I would truly like to know by EVERYONE in this thread the answer to one question..................


Do you view me as a Christian and your brother in Christ?


I am over being upset over this and would like an honest answer by everyone.

please.............I will think no less of any of you for truthfully answering.before I leave you all with this once great debate.

Don't be that way!!!!!!

You'll have to change your name!!!!

And runawaywarrior4God just doesn't have the same ring to it. :)

As I stated before I believe you are a Christian.

[lwdc]

Not sure who you think you are, but you IMO are in danger of blaspheming the Holy Spirit.

Who do you think you are exactly to question someone else's salvation?

Where in scripture does it explicitly say that the definition of the word Christian is tied in any way to the Trinity, or stating that Jesus is God?

Shame on you.You're making allegations that about me that are false. Go back and read everything I've written in this thread. Then accuse me with proof.

I expect better from you than that, GiMR.

[lwdc]

Not sure who you think you are, but you IMO are in danger of blaspheming the Holy Spirit.

Who do you think you are exactly to question someone else's salvation?

Where in scripture does it explicitly say that the definition of the word Christian is tied in any way to the Trinity, or stating that Jesus is God?

Shame on you.Furthermore, read Proverbs 26:17. Learn it.

[God is My Rock]

You're making allegations that about me that are false. Go back and read everything I've written in this thread. Then accuse me with proof.

I expect better from you than that, GiMR.

Is Warrior a Christian or not?

[lwdc]

Is Warrior a Crhistian or not?Why do you ask me?

That's not for me to answer now, is it?

[lwdc]

GiMR, I suggest that you go back and read all that has transpired in this thread.

And don't forget Proverbs 26:17.

[God is My Rock]

Furthermore, read Proverbs 26:17. Learn it.

Warrior is my Brother.....

I believe he is a Christian.

No where does it say in the Bible to not aid your brother or defend him.

This is where you are supposed to ask Warrior for forgiveness, and all is well, instead of lecturing yet another brother on the fine points of the words of the Bible.

The Spirit, Learn it.

[DRS]

"Christians" is not a biblical term. It is the English word to describe those who believe in the Deity of Christ.

interesting Acts 11: 26*and, after he found him, he brought him to Antioch. It thus came about that for a whole year they gathered together with them in the congregation and taught quite a crowd, and it was first in Antioch that the disciples were by divine providence called Christians

so it seems both statements by you are wrong now

[lwdc]

Warrior is my Brother.....

I believe he is a Christian.

No where does it say in the Bible to not aid your brother or defend him.

This is where you are supposed to ask Warrior for forgiveness, and all is well, instead of lecturing yet another brother on the fine points of the words of the Bible.

The Spirit, Learn it.I have no issues with what you and W4G believe. I don't care. I made no lecture in this thread.

This is where you find any of my posts in this thread for which an apology is in order. There are none. I invite you to search.

[God is My Rock]

Christians believe in the Deity of Christ. That's why they're called Christians.

Right here, this is an untruth.

I went back and re-read in case I had missed something.

But I didn't it appears.

For the record I agree with Warrior that Jesus is not God.

And here we go, this is what the thread is about, not "Does Warrior agree with my/our definition of what the word 'christian' means"

To then imply that Warrior is not a Christian, by your above definition, then questions his salvation, and by default the work of the Spirit within him.

You then, are by default, questioning the Spirit at work within him.

You not I, are treading on thin ice. (Spiritually)

[lwdc]

interesting Acts 11: 26*and, after he found him, he brought him to Antioch. It thus came about that for a whole year they gathered together with them in the congregation and taught quite a crowd, and it was first in Antioch that the disciples were by divine providence called Christians

so it seems both statements by you are wrong now"Christian" is an English word. I'm not wrong about that.

Granted, it is based on the Greek Χριστιανός which is a cognate.

But "Christian" is an English word. You're free to argue about it if you wish. But I think that would be rather petty.

[God is My Rock]

I have no issues with what you and W4G believe. I don't care. I made no lecture in this thread.

This is where you find any of my posts in this thread for which an apology is in order. There are none. I invite you to search.

See my previous post.

[lwdc]

Right here, this is an untruth.

I went back and re-read in case I had missed something.

But I didn't it appears.

For the record I agree with Warrior that Jesus is not God.Thank you for going back and reading what has been posted. That's more like the form I've seen from you in the past, GiMR.

And here we go, this is what the thread is about, not "Does Warrior agree with my/our definition of what the word 'christian' means"

To then imply that Warrior is not a Christian, by your above definition, then questions his salvation, and by default the work of the Spirit within him.I don't care what he thinks.

I don't care what you think.

I asked him what he meant by the word "Christian". I told him what I thought is meant by the word "Christian". We're each entitled to our own opinions. I made no accusation. He got bent out of shape.

Not my problem.

You then, are by default, questioning the Spirit at work within him.

You not I, are treading on thin ice. (Spiritually)YOU are no judge of such matters, just as I am not either. Remove the plank from your eye... brother.

[JenT]

Wait...so this thread is about whether or not Jesus is Deity?

I thought it was between Oneness and Trinity, both believing in Deity.

You're saying one can be "Christian" and think Jesus was just a man? I never thought of that.

But how does that work? Because if you believe Christ is just a teacher, how would that make you a Christian, it wouldn't change you internally would it?

[JenT]

Not sure why this bothers me so much............maybe its the fact that unity was being seen in this thread and now it appears to diminish.
Maybe its the fact that Christ gave his life for me and God called me into the family and I have spent over 35 years standing on the promises of Christ my Lord.


I enjoyed this when we could debate as Christians but when you no longer view me that way I need no longer participate.


God bless you all in the name of Christ Jesus my Lord.


I would truly like to know by EVERYONE in this thread the answer to one question..................


Do you view me as a Christian and your brother in Christ?


I am over being upset over this and would like an honest answer by everyone.

please.............I will think no less of any of you for truthfully answering.before I leave you all with this once great debate.

(just saw this)

Please don't go Warrior, I just never heard of this before :hug:

[hillplus]

Not sure why this bothers me so much............maybe its the fact that unity was being seen in this thread and now it appears to diminish.
Maybe its the fact that Christ gave his life for me and God called me into the family and I have spent over 35 years standing on the promises of Christ my Lord.


I enjoyed this when we could debate as Christians but when you no longer view me that way I need no longer participate.


God bless you all in the name of Christ Jesus my Lord.


I would truly like to know by EVERYONE in this thread the answer to one question..................


Do you view me as a Christian and your brother in Christ?


I am over being upset over this and would like an honest answer by everyone.

please.............I will think no less of any of you for truthfully answering.before I leave you all with this once great debate.


You don't need the approval of anyone on here. I, for one will never suggest that someone is not a Christian. I know how it feels.

[lwdc]

you don't need the approval of anyone on here. I, for one will never suggest that someone is not a christian. I know how it feels.+1

[God is My Rock]

Thank you for going back and reading what has been posted. That's more like the form I've seen from you in the past, GiMR.

I don't care what he thinks.

I don't care what you think.

I asked him what he meant by the word "Christian". I told him what I thought is meant by the word "Christian". We're each entitled to our own opinions. I made no accusation. He got bent out of shape.

Not my problem.

YOU are no judge of such matters, just as I am not either. Remove the plank from your eye... brother.

The Lord knows that I have my faults, of which I do grieve. But when you make a statement like you did, that "Christians" believe In the deity of Christ, You have to realize how someone like Warrior would understand that definition.

I myself would have probably ignored it, but who knows what kind of day or week Warrior may be having? What if your reckless comment just sent your brother over the edge?

[God is My Rock]

Wait...so this thread is about whether or not Jesus is Deity?

I thought it was between Oneness and Trinity, both believing in Deity.

You're saying one can be "Christian" and think Jesus was just a man? I never thought of that.

But how does that work? Because if you believe Christ is just a teacher, how would that make you a Christian, it wouldn't change you internally would it?

Warrior holds a slightly different viewpoint on this than myself, but the short answer for both of us is one that lies somewhere between Jesus not being "just a teacher" and not being God.

Neither of us holds to a plurality of Gods either.

Jesus is what he said

"I am God's Son."

[lwdc]

The Lord knows that I have my faults, of which I do grieve. But when you make a statement like you did, that "Christians" believe In the deity of Christ, You have to realize how someone like Warrior would understand that definition.

I myself would have probably ignored it, but who knows what kind of day or week Warrior may be having? What if your reckless comment just sent your brother over the edge?I believe that Christians believe in the deity of Christ. That's what I believe.


If what I believe sends W4G over the edge, that's his problem. He really shouldn't care what I believe, just as I don't care what he believes.

[Warrior4God]

Don't be that way!!!!!!

You'll have to change your name!!!!

And runawaywarrior4God just doesn't have the same ring to it. :)

As I stated before I believe you are a Christian.

Thankyou brother

I am curious how others view it.

[Warrior4God]

I believe that Christians believe in the deity of Christ. That's what I believe.




Prove that with scripture or you are just following man made doctrine.


You need to back it up with scripture or just admit your wrong or that you would rather follow men rather then Gods Word.

I mean no disrespect but put up or shutup as they say.


I will be glad to debate this before I back off from this thread.

I'm ready and waiting to show from scripture and see what you got scripturally.

Actually maybe I should start a new thread to keep this one from being derailed for the rest who remain.

[lwdc]

Prove that with scripture or you are just following man made doctrine.


You need to back it up with scripture or just admit your wrong or that you would rather follow men rather then Gods Word.

I mean no disrespect but put up or shutup as they say.


I will be glad to debate this before I back off from this thread.

I'm ready and waiting to show from scripture and see what you got scripturally.

Actually maybe I should start a new thread to keep this one from being derailed for the rest who remain.I thought you wanted to drop this whole discussion. You said:
Just drop it please.And I agreed to do so.

If you want to keep this up, then it's probably a good idea if you start a new thread.

[drmilo]

Wait...so this thread is about whether or not Jesus is Deity?

I thought it was between Oneness and Trinity, both believing in Deity.

You're saying one can be "Christian" and think Jesus was just a man? I never thought of that.

But how does that work? Because if you believe Christ is just a teacher, how would that make you a Christian, it wouldn't change you internally would it?

The thread has more beliefs in it than just Oneness and Trinity. There is the JW belief presented -- that Jesus is the Archangel Michael -- there is the unitarian/quasi-unitarian belief that Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of God, but only a man and not God; there is the belief that Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of God, but not God and more than man, and of course there is the Oneness, the Trinity, the LDS who all believe in the deity of Jesus: Oneness believing Jesus is a manifestation of the Father incarnated on earth, that the Son is a result of the incarnation; Trinity that three persons exist in the One Being called God; and LDS (which I am still kind of confused on their belief in Jesus as deity and not the same being as God the Father...)

Anyway, to answer Warrior's question, I count you among my Christian brothers. As long as you profess Jesus as the Messiah, the author of salvation, and you practice the teachings and follow his ministry, I consider you a Christian, even if I disagree with you on his nature....

I think we do need to focus on some of the things we agree upon every so often in this thread, especially when it gets too heated ... it will help to keep civility in our disagreements....

[drmilo]

I believe that Christians believe in the deity of Christ. That's what I believe.


If what I believe sends W4G over the edge, that's his problem. He really shouldn't care what I believe, just as I don't care what he believes.

I think that, if you would have prefaced your previous comment with how you prefaced it here, Warrior would not have taken offense. You asked him what he believed a Christian was. He asked you what you meant by that question. You told him a Christian believes in the Deity of Christ. Warrior, who does not believe in the Deity of Christ, but still considers himself a Christian, knowing that you knew he did not believe in the deity of Christ, assumed you were saying he was not a Christian. If you would have said, "I define Christian as a believer in the Deity of Christ, how doyou define it?" I believe this entire incident could have been avoided. Warrior did go into detail what he believes makes him a Christian.

[lwdc]

I think that, if you would have prefaced your previous comment with how you prefaced it here, Warrior would not have taken offense. You asked him what he believed a Christian was. He asked you what you meant by that question. You told him a Christian believes in the Deity of Christ. Warrior, who does not believe in the Deity of Christ, but still considers himself a Christian, knowing that you knew he did not believe in the deity of Christ, assumed you were saying he was not a Christian. If you would have said, "I define Christian as a believer in the Deity of Christ, how doyou define it?" I believe this entire incident could have been avoided. Warrior did go into detail what he believes makes him a Christian.Everything I state in here are my own beliefs. I can offer no more than my own opinions in here.

I think W4G would have flown off the handle no matter how I expressed my opinion. I agree that I could have phrased expression of my beliefs differently, but I don't think that would have prevented W4G from going off the deep end. That's just my opinion.

[Warrior4God]

The thread has more beliefs in it than just Oneness and Trinity. There is the JW belief presented -- that Jesus is the Archangel Michael -- there is the unitarian/quasi-unitarian belief that Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of God, but only a man and not God; there is the belief that Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of God, but not God and more than man, and of course there is the Oneness, the Trinity, the LDS who all believe in the deity of Jesus: Oneness believing Jesus is a manifestation of the Father incarnated on earth, that the Son is a result of the incarnation; Trinity that three persons exist in the One Being called God; and LDS (which I am still kind of confused on their belief in Jesus as deity and not the same being as God the Father...)

Anyway, to answer Warrior's question, I count you among my Christian brothers. As long as you profess Jesus as the Messiah, the author of salvation, and you practice the teachings and follow his ministry, I consider you a Christian, even if I disagree with you on his nature....

I think we do need to focus on some of the things we agree upon every so often in this thread, especially when it gets too heated ... it will help to keep civility in our disagreements....

Well said as usual

[Warrior4God]

Everything I state in here are my own beliefs. I can offer no more than my own opinions in here.

I think W4G would have flown off the handle no matter how I expressed my opinion. I agree that I could have phrased expression of my beliefs differently, but I don't think that would have prevented W4G from going off the deep end. That's just my opinion.

I don't fly off the handle easily if you would go back and read.

I spend many of my posts promoting unity and find your posts causing division too often.

[lwdc]

I don't fly off the handle easily if you would go back and read.

I spend many of my posts promoting unity and find your posts causing division too often.You flew off the handle because of posts which you find "divisive". Not me.

I don't care. You are who you are.

[Snow]

That's what I've been asking W4G. You should ask him too.

Thanks for dropping in, btw.

In the other thread you are complaining, incessantly, that Warrior won't answer your questions but you refused to answer questions yourself?

Oh.

[Snow]

Make your point.

I am defending my profession as a Christian and take issue with a person judging what the Word of God has said concerning me.

Is it your view that I am wrong?

My view is that you are or have been a regular denigrator of The Church of Jesus Christ, but act all atwitter when someone questions your beliefs.

That's irony.

[lwdc]

In the other thread you are complaining, incessantly, that Warrior won't answer your questions but you refused to answer questions yourself?

Oh.I answered his question early on. Here:
http://forums.hannity.com/showpost.php?p=37590161&postcount=15292

I complained that he kept changing the subject incessantly, which he did.

[Snow]

I believe that Christians believe in the deity of Christ. That's what I believe.


I think you are just making that up. You may believe it but God has never said He agrees with you.

[Snow]

I answered his question early on. Here:
http://forums.hannity.com/showpost.php?p=37590161&postcount=15292

I complained that he kept changing the subject incessantly, which he did.

You've missed the point. You refused to answer MY questions.

[lwdc]

I think you are just making that up. You may believe it but God has never said He agrees with you.It's what I believe, in any case.

Whether I'm right or wrong is a different matter, and I'd be happy to engage you in civil discussion about it. I could change my opinion.

But as far as what I currently believe, you cannot dispute.

[Snow]

It's what I believe, in any case.

Whether I'm right or wrong is a different matter, and I'd be happy to engage you in civil discussion about it. I could change my opinion.

But as far as what I currently believe, you cannot dispute.

If you had simply been offering your opinion that would be one thing. What you have been doing instead is stating your opinion as a factual matter. Again - what authoritative source do you offer for your claims... other than that's what you think?

[lwdc]

If you had simply been offering your opinion that would be one thing. What you have been doing instead is stating your opinion as a factual matter. Again - what authoritative source do you offer for your claims... other than that's what you think?It is, and has been, my opinion.

Are you happy now?

Shall I say it again?

[Snow]

It is, and has been, my opinion.

Are you happy now?

Shall I say it again?

Is your opinion that a Christian is one who accepts the deity of Christ based on anything other that that's what you want to believe?

[Warrior4God]

My view is that you are or have been a regular denigrator of The Church of Jesus Christ, but act all atwitter when someone questions your beliefs.

That's irony.

Show exactly where I have been a denigrator of The Church of Jesus Christ on a regular basis.



That accusation should be proved.

You can't just say anything you want without proof and have any credibility.

[DRS]

"Christian" is an English word. I'm not wrong about that.

Granted, it is based on the Greek Χριστιανός which is a cognate.

But "Christian" is an English word. You're free to argue about it if you wish. But I think that would be rather petty.


Well then using you arguement then the word God is not found in the bible either as it is an English word

[God is My Rock]

The thread has more beliefs in it than just Oneness and Trinity. There is the JW belief presented -- that Jesus is the Archangel Michael -- there is the unitarian/quasi-unitarian belief that Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of God, but only a man and not God; there is the belief that Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of God, but not God and more than man, and of course there is the Oneness, the Trinity, the LDS who all believe in the deity of Jesus: Oneness believing Jesus is a manifestation of the Father incarnated on earth, that the Son is a result of the incarnation; Trinity that three persons exist in the One Being called God; and LDS (which I am still kind of confused on their belief in Jesus as deity and not the same being as God the Father...)

Anyway, to answer Warrior's question, I count you among my Christian brothers. As long as you profess Jesus as the Messiah, the author of salvation, and you practice the teachings and follow his ministry, I consider you a Christian, even if I disagree with you on his nature....

I think we do need to focus on some of the things we agree upon every so often in this thread, especially when it gets too heated ... it will help to keep civility in our disagreements....

Good Form!!!!!

And Amen

[lwdc]

Is your opinion that a Christian is one who accepts the deity of Christ based on anything other that that's what you want to believe?It is based on beliefs of the generations of people who believe in the Deity of Christ, myself notwithstanding, for whatever that's worth.

[God is My Rock]

It is based on beliefs of the generations of people who believe in the Deity of Christ, myself notwithstanding, for whatever that's worth.

While on the one hand, I technically agree with what you have stated.

The songs that are sung, the sermons that are given, the creeds that are repeated, all agree with what you have stated.

You believe what you believe.

I guess my point anyhow is, You and I both know what "man" says makes a "christian" a "christian" ; but what does G-d think?

Can you definitively prove through scripture, that G-d says, "To be a christian, you must believe that Jesus is G-d" ?

[Snow]

It is based on beliefs of the generations of people who believe in the Deity of Christ, myself notwithstanding, for whatever that's worth.

Well - I agree with you but short of some authoritative source for the belief, it can't be claimed as anything more than an opinion, not necessarily any better or worse than other opinions.

If you cared to, you could make, and perhaps you have, a strong or airtight case for Christ's deity from the scriptures, but as for being a Christian - a follower of Christ - no such doctrinal test exists.

[Snow]

Show exactly where I have been a denigrator of The Church of Jesus Christ on a regular basis.



That accusation should be proved.

You can't just say anything you want without proof and have any credibility.

I'd like to see your face as you type that.

[lwdc]

If you cared to, you could make, and perhaps you have, a strong or airtight case for Christ's deity from the scriptures, but as for being a Christian - a follower of Christ - no such doctrinal test exists.Exactly.

[kso721]

I do believe in the Trinity....I need not read anything except the Bible to get that..and faith that has been given me by the Holy Spirit...

I bet you believe the world is only two thousand years old too.

[Constantine the Great]

I bet you believe the world is only two thousand years old too.

Perhaps you should study that which you hope to bash. Even YEC's don't believe the earth is 2000 years old and not all Christians are YEC's. Placing ignorance on display is not very wise.

[God is My Rock]

Perhaps you should study that which you hope to bash. Even YEC's don't believe the earth is 2000 years old and not all Christians are YEC's. Placing ignorance on display is not very wise.

I think this is someone just having a bad day/life, and is lookin for a fight.............

[Constantine the Great]

I think this is someone just having a bad day/life, and is lookin for a fight.............

Most likely. A perfect candidate to teach God's message of salvation. Someone who "doesn't get it". Perfect opportunity.

[Warrior4God]

I'd like to see your face as you type that.

Originally Posted by Warrior4God
Show exactly where I have been a denigrator of The Church of Jesus Christ on a regular basis.



That accusation should be proved.

You can't just say anything you want without proof and have any credibility.


Can't do it?

I would like to see your face as you read this.


Not sure why we always butt heads but you sure seem have it out for me to the point of false statements about me.

Why?

[Snow]

I do believe in the Trinity....I need not read anything except the Bible to get that..and faith that has been given me by the Holy Spirit...

I doubt that is true.

Where in the bible did you get that the Father, Son and Holy Ghost are of one ontological essence? (as called for in the doctrine of the Trinity).

I'd love to see some biblical source for that belief.

[Snow]

Originally Posted by Warrior4God
Show exactly where I have been a denigrator of The Church of Jesus Christ on a regular basis.



That accusation should be proved.

You can't just say anything you want without proof and have any credibility.


Can't do it?

I would like to see your face as you read this.


Not sure why we always butt heads but you sure seem have it out for me to the point of false statements about me.

Why?

If you want to claim that you and I didn't have numerous discussions last year where you were very antagonistic to LDS doctrines and beliefs, that's alright by me. Go right ahead.

[Warrior4God]

If you want to claim that you and I didn't have numerous discussions last year where you were very antagonistic to LDS doctrines and beliefs, that's alright by me. Go right ahead.

I have NEVER had an antagonistic view towards LDS doctrines or beliefs snow.


I have never got into a debate about the views of your faith.

I have had discussions with you on the flood and 6 day creation and thats it.

I don't even know if those are your churches views or just yours.

I know very very little about LDS to even debate much less be antagonistic.

Your dead wrong.

Show me where or you are just making stuff up.

You have made a false claim and you can't backit up........That I know fore sure.


You have me mistaken for someone else.

[Angryamerican]

I understand what you're saying, but then, Satan doesn't have a body. He is not "mortal" as we are.

But how do we know he don't have a body ?

[Reeder]

But how do we know he don't have a body ?

Because Adam was the first to receive a body, and yet, Satan was tempting him in the garden. Do you believe that Satan possessed a body at that time? Surely he wasn't a mortal son of Adam, right? Certainly Satan was on the earth then, and is still upon the earth now. Do you believe he has a body now? Has he been alive all this time?

LDS theology has always taught that Satan and those who followed him in the pre-mortal life were denied physical bodies.

[Angryamerican]

The Bible says that man was created in the image of God, but that has nothing to do with the passage that I posted from Col 1.


That passage says that Jesus is the image of God, then continues by crediting Him with the creation of the universe. That is a lot different than being created in the image of God.

What does the fact that we are created in God's image mean to you?

What qualities of God do we have? Jesus can give life, forgive sins, create the universe. Can we do any of that?

Only in your opinion . Angels have been given the ability to do great things , That proves nothing. oh and they to, were created in the image of God as well.

[Angryamerican]

Christians and Jews both know that is what He claimed.

What religion are you?

No True Jew would make that claim.

[Angryamerican]

Because you're quoting phrases from the Bible that are placed within a historical culture and had meanings different from the readers now days.

And no, you are not doing my homework for me. I am trying to get you to understand the basic step in interpreting Scripture. It is that, we should make every attempt to understand the Bible within the culture it was written and take into consideration their worldview or the historical situation the letter, poem, narrative, etc...... was written in.

In a thread with 15,000 post it would take a great deal of time to search for your posts. The reason I asked how you understood the culture of the NT was many, on this forum, claim special knowledge or they believe they can disprove the trustworthiness of the Bible. However, most have no idea what it means to dig deeper into God's Word by showing the proper respect for the original languages and the culture the Bible was written in. As well, the reader must take into consideration that they might be wrong when they explore the text. Remember, doctrine is a great director and a terrible task master (source unknown).

Agreed

[God is My Rock]

Agreed

Yes, and yet, I cannot believe that "TRUTH" can be limited or disguised to such a degree as culture, etc... as to be lost.

What is the point?

I mean history, no matter who has written it, has proven to be untrustworthy as well, with outside motives coloring it.

Either the Bible is different, from all of the other writings of man, or it is all rather pointless.

[Angryamerican]

DRS,

The problem is your translation is just like an NIV, only re-worded. I suspect it is a translation of another faulty translation, translated from from a faulty set of manuscripts.

Really can you tell us a translation that isn't biased or have zero mistakes?

[Angryamerican]

Because Adam was the first to receive a body, and yet, Satan was tempting him in the garden. Do you believe that Satan possessed a body at that time? Surely he wasn't a mortal son of Adam, right? Certainly Satan was on the earth then, and is still upon the earth now. Do you believe he has a body now? Has he been alive all this time?

LDS theology has always taught that Satan and those who followed him in the pre-mortal life were denied physical bodies.

How do you know that was satan if he wasn't named ?

[lwdc]

No True Jew would make that claim.Jews most certainly make that claim. That is the grounds for which Jesus is legitimately accused of blasphemy of the highest order.

[Fire Watch]

No True Jew would make that claim.
Several Jews on these forums have verified this claim. I guess you should do some more research.

[ralittlefield]

Only in your opinion . Angels have been given the ability to do great things , That proves nothing. oh and they to, were created in the image of God as well.

It is not only my opinion. It is correctly understanding the language used.

Col 1 says that Christ is the image of God. The passage continues by crediting Him with the creation of the universe. (Who is credited with creation in Gen?)

We, on the other hand are said to be created in the image of God. Does that mean that we are able to create a universe? No, of course not.

Being the image of God is much different that having some of the traits of God.

[toserve]

Gen. 1:26; Gen. 3:22; Isa. 6:3, 8; Isa. 11:2, 3; Isa. 42:1 Matt. 12:18. Isa. 48:16; Isa. 61:1 [Luke 4:18.] Isa. 61:2, 3; Isa. 63:9, 10; Matt. 1:18, 20; Matt. 3:11 Mark 1:8; Luke 3:16. Matt. 12:28; Matt. 28:19; Luke 1:35; Luke 3:22 Matt. 3:16. Luke 4:1, 14; John 1:32, 33; John 3:34, 35; John 7:39; John 14:16, 17, 26; John 15:26; John 16:7, 13–15; John 20:22; Acts 1:2, 4, 5; Acts 2:33; Acts 10:36–38; Rom. 1:3, 4; Rom. 8:9–11, 26, 27; 1 Cor. 2:10, 11; 1 Cor. 6:19; 1 Cor. 8:6; 1 Cor. 12:3–6; 2 Cor. 1:21, 22 2 Cor. 5:5. 2 cor. 3:17; 2 Cor. 13:14; Gal. 4:4, 6; Phil. 1:19; Col. 2:2; 2 Thess. 2:13, 14, 16; 1 Tim. 3:16; Tit. 3:4–6; Heb. 9:14; 1 Pet. 1:2; 1 Pet. 3:18; 1 John 5:6, 7; Rev. 4:8

[Snow]

I have NEVER had an antagonistic view towards LDS doctrines or beliefs snow.


I have never got into a debate about the views of your faith.

I have had discussions with you on the flood and 6 day creation and thats it.

I don't even know if those are your churches views or just yours.

I know very very little about LDS to even debate much less be antagonistic.

Your dead wrong.

Show me where or you are just making stuff up.

You have made a false claim and you can't backit up........That I know fore sure.


You have me mistaken for someone else.

In as much as I can only search back 20 pages of your posts, I have to defer to your characterization and apologize if I have misstated your history.

I'm sorry.

[Harmonious]

No True Jew would make that claim.If it makes you feel better, here is a better way to think about this.

Jews have no problem believing that Jesus CLAIMED to be God. We have a problem BELIEVING his claim.

[Angryamerican]

Several Jews on these forums have verified this claim. I guess you should do some more research.

Your definition of a jew is different then mine. No real jew would accept a man claiming to be God .They would also reject the notion of 3=1.:)):mrgreen:

[Angryamerican]

If it makes you feel better, here is a better way to think about this.

Jews have no problem believing that Jesus CLAIMED to be God. We have a problem BELIEVING his claim.

Thank you.

[Angryamerican]

Jews most certainly make that claim. That is the grounds for which Jesus is legitimately accused of blasphemy of the highest order.

You try and prove your point in a book the jews today don't accept ?

I have heard some jews say IF jesus existed he would have been guilty of blasphemy. They are not saying that he existed.

[lwdc]

You try and prove your point in a book the jews today don't accept ?

I have heard some jews say IF jesus existed he would have been guilty of blasphemy. They are not saying that he existed.They know the Nazarene existed. His claims are a different matter altogether.

[Angryamerican]

They know the Nazarene existed. His claims are a different matter altogether.

That is not what i heard.

What is your evidence that Jesus existed ?not really saying he didn't ever walk the earth.

[lwdc]

What is your evidence that Jesus existed ?not really saying he didn't ever walk the earth.There are other threads that are intended for discussion of that question. This one really isn't.

[Angryamerican]

There are other threads that are intended for discussion of that question. This one really isn't.

You made a claim i just asked you to prove it. Do you want to point to a thread, that proves that Jesus was a man and existed when the nt said he did ?

[lwdc]

You made a claim i just asked you to prove it. Do you want to point to a thread, that proves that Jesus was a man and existed when the nt said he did ?Here are a couple of threads on that topic:

http://forums.hannity.com/showthread.php?t=247987
http://forums.hannity.com/showthread.php?t=231598

Have a ball.

[CMike11]

As was said in "Cool Hand Luke," what we have heeerrrreeeee is a failure to communicate.

I think all LW was saying was that Christians and Jews both believe that Jesus CLAIMED to be the son of god.

Jews don't believe Jesus' claim, Christians do.

[CMike11]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1fuDDqU6n4o&feature=related

[lwdc]

As was said in "Cool Hand Luke," what we have heeerrrreeeee is a failure to communicate.

I think all LW was saying was that Christians and Jews both believe that Jesus CLAIMED to be the son of god.

Jews don't believe Jesus' claim, Christians do.
Yes, that's what I said.

As an aside, Paul Newman, great actor. I also liked him in Butch Cassidy, The Hustler, The Color of Money, so many good ones. May he rest in peace.

Meanwhile, back to the topic of the thread...

[CMike11]

Yes, that's what I said.

As an aside, Paul Newman, great actor. I also liked him in Butch Cassidy, The Hustler, The Color of Money, so many good ones. May he rest in peace.

Meanwhile, back to the topic of the thread...

I didn't even say you were misguided this time :))

[JenT]

What IS the topic because this seems like a fascinating thread.

I just scrolled three or four pages (20 posts each) and I"m not sure which one it is

[RayMan]

What IS the topic because this seems like a fascinating thread.

I just scrolled three or four pages (20 posts each) and I"m not sure which one it is


This thread has a topic? Wow, that is so cool.

[JenT]

This thread has a topic? Wow, that is so cool.

RayMan...(Looking deep into your eyes, searching them)...

Remember when Tom Cruise shouted at Jack Nicholson "I WANT THE TRUTH" remember that? Well I can handle the truth...

Have you been assigned to keep me out of trouble?

Cause you're really good at it.

[RayMan]

RayMan...(Looking deep into your eyes, searching them)...

Remember when Tom Cruise shouted at Jack Nicholson "I WANT THE TRUTH" remember that? Well I can handle the truth...

Have you been assigned to keep me out of trouble?

Cause you're really good at it.

CID and me. "We're on a mission from God."

[JenT]

CID and me. "We're on a mission from God."

:)) I KNEW IT! Every time I sit down to get into some meat, you two make me laugh milk through my nose!

and THANK YOU for the RETURN of my RayMan!

[Tucson Jim]

Originally Posted by lwdc
Christians believe in the Deity of Christ. That's why they're called Christians.



I thought you at least believed that I was a Christian TJim.

I am deeply saddened by this.

Jesus Christ has saved me and if you can't accept that thats fine but I know him and know what he did for me no matter what your opinion is or others who have the nerve to say I am not Christian without a single scripture to prove otherwise.


You may not like it or may not like me which seems to be the case but to all who doubt it...................

I am a believing Christian.

Warrior, you know we have been through this many times before. I have never said, nor will I say, you are not a Christian.

I guess I just appreciated the directness of lwdc's comment and it's affirmation of my beliefs.

No slam against you was intended.

[Warrior4God]

Warrior, you know we have been through this many times before. I have never said, nor will I say, you are not a Christian.

I guess I just appreciated the directness of lwdc's comment and it's affirmation of my beliefs.

No slam against you was intended.

Thanks Jim.

God bless you.

First time I ever got a bit touchy huh?

[Tucson Jim]

Perhaps you should study that which you hope to bash. Even YEC's don't believe the earth is 2000 years old and not all Christians are YEC's. Placing ignorance on display is not very wise.

But an all-too-common occurrence . . . :))

[Tucson Jim]

Thanks Jim.

God bless you.

First time I ever got a bit touchy huh?

Yeah . . . :whistle: ;)

[Tucson Jim]

Thanks Jim.

God bless you.

First time I ever got a bit touchy huh?

Warrior, you KNOW you are one of my favorites in the trinity thread.

You're not actually going to leave because of one comment are you??

[Fire Watch]

Your definition of a jew is different then mine. No real jew would accept a man claiming to be God .They would also reject the notion of 3=1.:)):mrgreen:

I have no doubt that we disagree on the definition of many many words.

Many Jews accepted Jesus for who he was. The Apostles come to mind.

If you, after all this time still believe me to be a Trinitarian..it's no wonder you're so confused about so many other issues.

[CMike11]

I have no doubt that we disagree on the definition of many many words.

Many Jews accepted Jesus for who he was. The Apostles come to mind.

If you, after all this time still believe me to be a Trinitarian..it's no wonder you're so confused about so many other issues.

The way I see it, more like the person he claimed to be.

[Fire Watch]

The way I see it, more like the person he claimed to be.
Same thing IMO ;)

[JenT]

The way I see it, more like the person he claimed to be.

You see Christ as God now CMike?

Am I reading this wrong?

[Warrior4God]

Warrior, you KNOW you are one of my favorites in the trinity thread.

You're not actually going to leave because of one comment are you??

I was just making sure some things that were said about me were put to rest before I backed off.

Its not just one comment really its just that when it gets to the point that anger comes into play its time to back off.

Know what I mean?

I have so much respect for you Jim and believe you are a great man of God.

[CMike11]

You see Christ as God now CMike?

Am I reading this wrong?

Yup, I am now a born again.

Just kidding.

Fire Watch stated that the apostles saw Jesus" for who he was". Implying that he was the son of god.

I stated that the apostles saw jesus for who he "claimed" to be.

In other words, I am stating that he was not the son of god, although he "claimed" to be the son of god.

Fire Watch then stated that the apostles seeing jesus who he claimed to be and who he was, is the same thing.

I disagree.

I believe, that he claimed to be the son of god, but he was not.

He was just a mortal human being.

[Angryamerican]

I have no doubt that we disagree on the definition of many many words.

Many Jews accepted Jesus for who he was. The Apostles come to mind.

If you, after all this time still believe me to be a Trinitarian..it's no wonder you're so confused about so many other issues.

There are so many beliefs about Jesus, It's kinda hard to remember what every member is.

But i'm sure you don't believe Jesus to be the actual son of God. You like many believe him to be God.

[JenT]

The way I see it, more like the person he claimed to be.

mmmmnnnnnope, I think you admitted right here, He is "like the person He claimed to be"

That would be God :)

Too late CMike, can't go back now!

[Angryamerican]

Yup, I am now a born again.

Just kidding.

Fire Watch stated that the apostles saw Jesus" for who he was". Implying that he was the son of god.

I stated that the apostles saw jesus for who he "claimed" to be.

In other words, I am stating that he was not the son of god, although he "claimed" to be the son of god.

Fire Watch then stated that the apostles seeing jesus who he claimed to be and who he was, is the same thing.

I disagree.

I believe, that he claimed to be the son of god, but he was not.

He was just a mortal human being.

Finally, You see it my way :mrgreen:

[Tucson Jim]

I was just making sure some things that were said about me were put to rest before I backed off.

I hope you never "back off"! And I know you won't because I believe you have a passion for knowing who God is - A passion for knowing God. That is what drives you in this thread. And I believe the only ones who truly have such a passion are children of God.

Its not just one comment really its just that when it gets to the point that anger comes into play its time to back off.

Know what I mean?

True. I have had to do that myself once or twice . . . ;)

I have so much respect for you Jim and believe you are a great man of God.

And I feel the same about you Warrior.

We believe differently about the Trinity but I bet we come up on the same side of most other theological issues.

But more than that, despite (or perhaps because of!) your sometimes fiery rhetoric, I believe you truly love God and your fellow man. I see the tender side of you come out more often lately. Your frequent calls for unity show me that you love your brothers and sisters in Christ. And I can't help but think of 1 John 3:11;14a:

"For this is the message that ye heard from the beginning, that we should love one another. We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren."

[Tucson Jim]

There are so many beliefs about Jesus, It's kinda hard to remember what every member is.


Yeah - let's see, in the "Jesus is God and there is only one God" group, there are exactly 2 beliefs - Trinity and Oneness.

So hard to remember . . . :))

I'm just razzin' you AA, don't get mad. I couldn't resist!

[Tucson Jim]

<snip>

I believe, that he claimed to be the son of god, but he was not.

He was just a mortal human being.

Yep, "just a mortal human being" Who healed the blind, deaf and sick, walked on water, raised the dead, and raised Himself from the dead!

Just a man? Hardly!

[CMike11]

mmmmnnnnnope, I think you admitted right here, He is "like the person He claimed to be"

That would be God :)

Too late CMike, can't go back now!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SnO9Jyz82Ps


What I was saying, responding to FW's comment, is that the apostates saw him for what he "claimed" to be. FW stated that they saw him for what he was. Obviously, if the apostates didn't believe what he claimed to be they wouldn't have been following him around.

I do not accept that he was the son of god, therefore, I was disagreeing with what FW said.

He seemed to understand what I wrote.:rolleyes:

[CMike11]

Yep, "just a mortal human being" Who healed the blind, deaf and sick, walked on water, raised the dead, and raised Himself from the dead!

Just a man? Hardly!

I do not believe those things happened.

If he was indeed the Jewish messiah, he would have fulfilled the messianic prophesies.

Once again, there were

1) Rebuilding the temple in jerusalem, which would stand forever. Shortly after Jesus died, the 2nd one was destroyed.

2) Bringing all the jews to Israel where they would stay forever

3) World peace

4) All the nations worshipping one G-D.

None of these things happened. ALL must have been happened for him to be considered the messiah.

Jesus went further and made himself a divine being. That is as far from Judaism as you can get.

If he was a divine being he couldn't have been executed on the cross. I also don't believe that he was able to be killed because he let himself be killed.

No where in any jewish scripture does it say that G-D can be killed in any way.

Also, the messiah will only be a mortal man.

The most important tenent in Judaism is the worship of only one G-D. That includes no G-D in separate parts too.

[CMike11]

Yeah - let's see, in the "Jesus is God and there is only one God" group, there are exactly 2 beliefs - Trinity and Oneness.

So hard to remember . . . :))

I'm just razzin' you AA, don't get mad. I couldn't resist!

According to Christian beliefs based on the scripture posted here Jesus prayed to G-D.

Therefore 1+1=2

[hillplus]

.....

Also, the messiah will only be a mortal man....



I had never heard this before this forum. Where does it say this?

[Koushi Shinigami]

:neutral:

[DRS]

Yep, "just a mortal human being" Who healed the blind, deaf and sick, walked on water, raised the dead, and raised Himself from the dead!

Just a man? Hardly!

Who raised him from the dead

Acts 4:8*Then Peter, filled with holy spirit, said to them:

“Rulers of the people and older men, 9*if we are this day being examined, on the basis of a good deed to an ailing man, as to by whom this man has been made well, 10*let it be known to all of YOU and to all the people of Israel, that in the name of Jesus Christ the Naz‧a‧rene′, whom YOU impaled but whom God raised up from the dead, by this one does this man stand here sound in front of YOU. 11*This is ‘the stone that was treated by YOU builders as of no account that has become the head of the corner.’

[CMike11]

Who raised him from the dead

Acts 4:8*Then Peter, filled with holy spirit, said to them:

“Rulers of the people and older men, 9*if we are this day being examined, on the basis of a good deed to an ailing man, as to by whom this man has been made well, 10*let it be known to all of YOU and to all the people of Israel, that in the name of Jesus Christ the Naz‧a‧rene′, whom YOU impaled but whom God raised up from the dead, by this one does this man stand here sound in front of YOU. 11*This is ‘the stone that was treated by YOU builders as of no account that has become the head of the corner.’

No one, he stayed dead.

[Tucson Jim]

According to Christian beliefs based on the scripture posted here Jesus prayed to G-D.

Therefore 1+1=2

Not really.

God the Son prayed to God the Father. 1 X 1 = 1.

The supposed issue you raise is not a problem for a Triune Being.

[Tucson Jim]

:neutral:

Upping your post count Koushi? :razz:

[CMike11]

Not really.

God the Son prayed to God the Father. 1 X 1 = 1.

The supposed issue you raise is not a problem for a Triune Being.

Yeah, but we are adding not multiplying.

[Tucson Jim]

Who raised him from the dead

Acts 4:8*Then Peter, filled with holy spirit, said to them:

“Rulers of the people and older men, 9*if we are this day being examined, on the basis of a good deed to an ailing man, as to by whom this man has been made well, 10*let it be known to all of YOU and to all the people of Israel, that in the name of Jesus Christ the Naz‧a‧rene′, whom YOU impaled but whom God raised up from the dead, by this one does this man stand here sound in front of YOU. 11*This is ‘the stone that was treated by YOU builders as of no account that has become the head of the corner.’

Then how do you, with your Unitarian belief system, reconcile this?

"Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.

20Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?

21But he spake of the temple of his body. " John 2:19-21

Jesus said He would raise Himself from the dead.

Not a problem for Trinitarians or Oneness.

A BIG problem for you.

[Tucson Jim]

Yeah, but we are adding not multiplying.

:))

It's still not a problem for a Triune Being.

[Tucson Jim]

No one, he stayed dead.

Lots of witnesses and the Word of God say different.

[CMike11]

Then how do you, with your Unitarian belief system, reconcile this?

"Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.

20Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?

21But he spake of the temple of his body. " John 2:19-21

Jesus said He would raise Himself from the dead.

Not a problem for Trinitarians or Oneness.

A BIG problem for you.

No problem at all.

It really doesn't concern me what Jesus said.

What does concern me is the the actual prophesy that G-D made as stated in Ezekiel which that the messiah will rebuild the temple (the actual temple in jerusalem) and it will stand "forever".

If Jesus thinks he is a temple that is fine for him, however, it has nothing to do with the prophesy.

The probem you have is that Jesus in no way fulfilled the prophesies that must be fulfilled for the messiah to be the messiah.

Ezekiel 37
http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/16135/jewish/Chapter-37.htm


26. And I will form a covenant of peace for them, an everlasting covenant shall be with them; and I will establish them and I will multiply them, and I will place My Sanctuary in their midst forever.

27. And My dwelling place shall be over them, and I will be to them for a God, and they shall be to Me as a people.

28. And the nations shall know that I am the Lord, Who sanctifies Israel, when My Sanctuary is in their midst forever."


Below are the rest of the prophesies
http://jewsforjudaism.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=374&Itemid=234


First of all, he must be Jewish - "...you may appoint a king over you, whom the L-rd your G-d shall choose: one from among your brethren shall you set as king over you." (Deuteronomy 17:15)

He must be a member of the tribe of Judah - "The staff shall not depart from Judah, nor the sceptre from between his feet..." (Genesis 49:10)

To be a member of the tribe of Judah, the person must have a biological father who is a member of the tribe of Judah.

He must be a direct male descendant of King David and King Solomon, his son - "And when your days (David) are fulfilled, and you shall sleep with your fathers, I will set up your seed after you, who shall issue from your bowels, and I will establish his kingdom. He shall build a house for my name, and I will make firm the throne of his kingdom forever..." (2 Samuel 7:12 - 13)

The genealogy of the New Testament is inconsistent. While it gives two accounts of the genealogy of Joseph, it states clearly that he is not the biological father of Jesus. One of the genealogies is through Nathan and not Solomon altogether!

He must gather the Jewish people from exile and return them to Israel -"And he shall set up a banner for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth." (Isaiah 11:12)

Are all Jews living in Israel? Have all Jews EVER lived in Israel since the time of Jesus?

He must rebuild the Temple in Jerusalem - "...and I will set my sanctuary in their midst forever and my tabernacle shall be with them.." (Ezekiel 37:26 - 27)

At last check, there is NO Temple in Jerusalem. And worse, it was shortly after Jesus died that the Temple was DESTROYED! Just the opposite of this prophecy!

He will rule at a time of world-wide peace - "...they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning hooks; nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war anymore." (Micah 4:3)

Have you seen a newspaper lately? Are we living in a state of complete world peace? Has there ever been peace since the time of Jesus?

He will rule at a time when the Jewish people will observe G-d's commandments - "My servant David shall be king over them; and they shall all have one shepherd. They shall follow My ordinances and be careful to observe My statutes." (Ezekiel 37:24)

The Torah is the Jewish guide to life, and its commandments are the ones referred to here. Do all Jews observe all the commandments? Christianity, in fact, often discourages observance of the commandments in Torah, in complete opposition to this prophecy.

He will rule at a time when all people will come to acknowledge and serve one G-d - "And it shall come to pass that from one new moon to another and from one Sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before Me, says the L-rd" (Isaiah 66:23)

there are still millions if not billions of people in the world today who adhere to paganistic and polytheistic religions. It is clear that we have not yet seen this period of human history unfold.

All of these criteria are best stated in the book of Ezekiel Chapter 37 verses 24-28:

And David my servant shall be king over them; and they shall all have one shepherd. they shall also follow My judgments and observe My statutes, and do them. And they shall dwell in the land that I have given to Yaakov my servant, in which your fathers have dwelt and they shall dwell there, they and their children, and their children's children forever; and my servant David shall be their prince forever. Moreover, I will make a covenant of peace with them, it shall be an everlasting covenant with them, which I will give them; and I will multiply them and I will set my sanctuary in the midst of them forevermore. And my tabernacle shall be with them: and I will be their G-d and they will be my people. Then the nations shall know that I am the L-rd who sanctifies Israel, when My sanctuary will be in the midst of them forevermore.

If an individual fails to fulfill even one of these conditions, then he cannot be "The Messiah." A careful analysis of these criteria shows us that to date, no one has fulfilled every condition.

[DispensationalJim]

Well, I see CMike is taking us back to the Messiah thread again.

So, one simple question for CMike, then...

How come you can accept Isaiah 11:12 and 88:23 as being about the Messiah, but Isaiah 53 is not?

I know you keep saying it's CONTEXT, CONTEXT, CONTEXT, but it just seems inconsistant to me.

[DispensationalJim]

Then how do you, with your Unitarian belief system, reconcile this?

"Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.

20Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?

21But he spake of the temple of his body. " John 2:19-21

Jesus said He would raise Himself from the dead.

Not a problem for Trinitarians or Oneness.

A BIG problem for you.

Amen, TJim!

[CMike11]

Well, I see CMike is taking us back to the Messiah thread again.

So, one simple question for CMike, then...

How come you can accept Isaiah 11:12 and 88:23 as being about the Messiah, but Isaiah 53 is not?

I know you keep saying it's CONTEXT, CONTEXT, CONTEXT, but it just seems inconsistant to me.

You lost me, Isaiah only goes up to 66?

[Tucson Jim]

No problem at all.

It really doesn't concern me what Jesus said.

What does concern me is the the actual prophesy that G-D made as stated in Ezekiel which that the messiah will rebuild the temple (the actual temple in jerusalem) and it will stand "forever".

If Jesus thinks he is a temple that is fine for him, however, it has nothing to do with the prophesy.

The probem you have is that Jesus in no way fulfilled the prophesies that must be fulfilled for the messiah to be the messiah.

Ezekiel 37
http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/16135/jewish/Chapter-37.htm


26. And I will form a covenant of peace for them, an everlasting covenant shall be with them; and I will establish them and I will multiply them, and I will place My Sanctuary in their midst forever.

27. And My dwelling place shall be over them, and I will be to them for a God, and they shall be to Me as a people.

28. And the nations shall know that I am the Lord, Who sanctifies Israel, when My Sanctuary is in their midst forever."


Below are the rest of the prophesies
http://jewsforjudaism.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=374&Itemid=234


First of all, he must be Jewish - "...you may appoint a king over you, whom the L-rd your G-d shall choose: one from among your brethren shall you set as king over you." (Deuteronomy 17:15)

He must be a member of the tribe of Judah - "The staff shall not depart from Judah, nor the sceptre from between his feet..." (Genesis 49:10)

To be a member of the tribe of Judah, the person must have a biological father who is a member of the tribe of Judah.

He must be a direct male descendant of King David and King Solomon, his son - "And when your days (David) are fulfilled, and you shall sleep with your fathers, I will set up your seed after you, who shall issue from your bowels, and I will establish his kingdom. He shall build a house for my name, and I will make firm the throne of his kingdom forever..." (2 Samuel 7:12 - 13)

The genealogy of the New Testament is inconsistent. While it gives two accounts of the genealogy of Joseph, it states clearly that he is not the biological father of Jesus. One of the genealogies is through Nathan and not Solomon altogether!

He must gather the Jewish people from exile and return them to Israel -"And he shall set up a banner for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth." (Isaiah 11:12)

Are all Jews living in Israel? Have all Jews EVER lived in Israel since the time of Jesus?

He must rebuild the Temple in Jerusalem - "...and I will set my sanctuary in their midst forever and my tabernacle shall be with them.." (Ezekiel 37:26 - 27)

At last check, there is NO Temple in Jerusalem. And worse, it was shortly after Jesus died that the Temple was DESTROYED! Just the opposite of this prophecy!

He will rule at a time of world-wide peace - "...they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning hooks; nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war anymore." (Micah 4:3)

Have you seen a newspaper lately? Are we living in a state of complete world peace? Has there ever been peace since the time of Jesus?

He will rule at a time when the Jewish people will observe G-d's commandments - "My servant David shall be king over them; and they shall all have one shepherd. They shall follow My ordinances and be careful to observe My statutes." (Ezekiel 37:24)

The Torah is the Jewish guide to life, and its commandments are the ones referred to here. Do all Jews observe all the commandments? Christianity, in fact, often discourages observance of the commandments in Torah, in complete opposition to this prophecy.

He will rule at a time when all people will come to acknowledge and serve one G-d - "And it shall come to pass that from one new moon to another and from one Sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before Me, says the L-rd" (Isaiah 66:23)

there are still millions if not billions of people in the world today who adhere to paganistic and polytheistic religions. It is clear that we have not yet seen this period of human history unfold.

All of these criteria are best stated in the book of Ezekiel Chapter 37 verses 24-28:

And David my servant shall be king over them; and they shall all have one shepherd. they shall also follow My judgments and observe My statutes, and do them. And they shall dwell in the land that I have given to Yaakov my servant, in which your fathers have dwelt and they shall dwell there, they and their children, and their children's children forever; and my servant David shall be their prince forever. Moreover, I will make a covenant of peace with them, it shall be an everlasting covenant with them, which I will give them; and I will multiply them and I will set my sanctuary in the midst of them forevermore. And my tabernacle shall be with them: and I will be their G-d and they will be my people. Then the nations shall know that I am the L-rd who sanctifies Israel, when My sanctuary will be in the midst of them forevermore.

If an individual fails to fulfill even one of these conditions, then he cannot be "The Messiah." A careful analysis of these criteria shows us that to date, no one has fulfilled every condition.

Jesus will.

But this, of course, is a topic for another thread.

[Tucson Jim]

Amen, TJim!

:hug:

[CMike11]

Jesus will.

But this, of course, is a topic for another thread.

He is not alive anymore, so it doesn't look like it.

[DRS]

Then how do you, with your Unitarian belief system, reconcile this?

"Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.

20Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?

21But he spake of the temple of his body. " John 2:19-21

Jesus said He would raise Himself from the dead.

Not a problem for Trinitarians or Oneness.

A BIG problem for you.

No problem for me at all see using your logic then based on this scripture anyone can heal themself if they have faith

48*But he said to her: “Daughter, your faith has made you well; go your way in peace.”

Or it could be both statements show that the faith of the person made it possible for them to be rewarded

Then you also have the problem that you are now putting forth an idea that contradicts scripture

10*For you will not leave my soul in She′ol.
You will not allow your loyal one to see the pit

Twice in Acts this scripture is applied to Jesus and it was prophecied Jehovah would raise him

[Tucson Jim]

He is not alive anymore, so it doesn't look like it.

Yes he is, actually.

[Tucson Jim]

No problem for me at all see using your logic then based on this scripture anyone can heal themself if they have faith

48*But he said to her: “Daughter, your faith has made you well; go your way in peace.”

Or it could be both statements show that the faith of the person made it possible for them to be rewarded

Then you also have the problem that you are now putting forth an idea that contradicts scripture

10*For you will not leave my soul in She′ol.
You will not allow your loyal one to see the pit

Twice in Acts this scripture is applied to Jesus and it was prophecied Jehovah would raise him

And you can't even see that it is only contradictory if one assumes unitarianism. :wall:

Jesus Raised Himself from the dead.

The Father raised Him from the dead.

God raised Him from the dead.

That is what the Bible says.

You can believe it, or continue trying to explain it away.

[Tucson Jim]

It's pretty straight forward to me. In fact there is one verse that I can think of that encapsulates it:

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Read it slowly and let it sink in.

In the beginning was the Word
The Word was with God
The Word was God

Who is the Living Word? Christ is.

You have the Holy Spirit, which is invisible.
You have the Father, which is Christ in a Spirit body. (He took that form in order to create and dwell with His creations. Remember that the flesh man is made in His image.
You have Jesus who was the Father manifested as flesh man.

They are all one and the same, just different manifestations or you could think of them as "offices" or "roles".

In the Hebrew language the Holy Spirit is Ruach, which is translated as "breath", or "wind". The Holy Spirit is invisible.
Colossians
1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

Proverbs 8:22 ~8:36 are another witness to Christ, the WORD, being present before the Earth or universe was ever created.

Another witness:
John 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

John 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
Think about it. Before Abraham was, I am. I AM is who God told Moses to say to Pharaoh...Moses said "Who will I say sent me?" God said "I Am that I Am".
"I Am" is Eyeh Asher Eyeh in Hebrew. It is the etymology of the word YHVH...the sacred name of God.

Hebrews 2:14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

Isaiah 7:14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.

Mat 1:23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.


I really don't see what all the confusion is about.

Welcome to Hannity Zephaniah!!

If you stick around for a while, I think you will see what "all the confusion" is about!

Every verse you cite will be interpeted in multiple ways, using multiple translations, will be re-interpreted in the light of other scripture, and the very New Testament you quote from will said to be a mere fiction of men by some.

You are in for a treat, yes you are . . . :lol:

[DispensationalJim]

You lost me, Isaiah only goes up to 66?

So sorry, CMike... you caught me in a typo!

I was simply looking at your post where you quoted Isaiah 66:23 and I typed 88 instead. I am so embarrassed. :confused:

Can you ever forgive me?

[DRS]

And you can't even see that it is only contradictory if one assumes unitarianism. :wall:

Jesus Raised Himself from the dead.

The Father raised Him from the dead.

God raised Him from the dead.

That is what the Bible says.

You can believe it, or continue trying to explain it away.


The women healed herself

Jesus healed her

using your logic the woman is Jesus

[Tucson Jim]

The women healed herself

Jesus healed her

using your logic the woman is Jesus

It is interesting, and instructive, that you can take a straightforward statement by Jesus, "Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up . . . But he spake of the temple of his body", pretend it doesn't mean what it says, bring in an irrelevant verse to support your denial, then imply I am somehow using false logic!

Incredible . . .

No matter what you may wish to believe, Jesus said he would raise Himself from the dead - and He did.

[DRS]

It is interesting, and instructive, that you can take a straightforward statement by Jesus, "Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up . . . But he spake of the temple of his body", pretend it doesn't mean what it says, bring in an irrelevant verse to support your denial, then imply I am somehow using false logic!

Incredible . . .

No matter what you may wish to believe, Jesus said he would raise Himself from the dead - and He did.

Jesus by his faith made it possible for God to raise him up, just the faith of the women made it possible for her to be healed

It was prophesied Jehovah would raise him and He did

Too bad you assume there are three persons who are Almighty God and have to impose that on scripture even though it ends up contradicting all prophecy

[ralittlefield]

Jesus by his faith made it possible for God to raise him up, just the faith of the women made it possible for her to be healed

It was prophesied Jehovah would raise him and He did

Too bad you assume there are three persons who are Almighty God and have to impose that on scripture even though it ends up contradicting all prophecy


Are you saying it would not have been possible for God to raise Jesus if Jesus did not have faith? I do not think that you really believe that.

Jesus said that HE would raise his body. That is what the passage says. Period.

John 2
19 Jesus answered them, “Destroy this temple, and I will raise it again in three days.”
20 The Jews replied, “It has taken forty-six years to build this temple, and you are going to raise it in three days?” 21 But the temple he had spoken of was his body. 22 After he was raised from the dead, his disciples recalled what he had said. Then they believed the Scripture and the words that Jesus had spoken.

[ralittlefield]

Jesus by his faith made it possible for God to raise him up, just the faith of the women made it possible for her to be healed

It was prophesied Jehovah would raise him and He did

Too bad you assume there are three persons who are Almighty God and have to impose that on scripture even though it ends up contradicting all prophecy

We are not contradicting any (much-less all) prophecy.

Jehovah did raise him. He did raise Himself. Read John 2 again. The language is clear. Jesus says that He will raise His Body. It also clarifies that point by saying that after the ressurection the disciples understood Him to mean that He would raise His body. It says that they believed the scripture and the words Jesus had spoken.

They believed the words. Words have meaning. Jesus said that he would raise his body.

He did not say that He would have faith so that God could raise His body.

[DRS]

What prophesy does it contradict? Can yo give me chapter and verse?

Do you not understand that we have two bodies? A flesh body and a spirit body? Jesus was the flesh body and the Father is His spirit body. They are one and the same, yet different "containers".

John 14:9
Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou [then], Shew us the Father?
14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

If you have seen Me, You have seen the Father...Why? Because Jesus was The Father in the flesh, the Father is in the Spirit body and the Holy Spirit is invisible. Wherever they are the Holy Spirit is also. That's your Trinity and Godhead.

there you go creating contradictions again, if Jesus was God in the flesh then he would not talk about ascending to his God and your God.

But since Jesus was the exact image of the Father as Paul show us in 1:3 watching him in all he did would by likeing watching God in a mirror since God was reflected in this perfect servent Jesus

[DRS]

We are not contradicting any (much-less all) prophecy.

Jehovah did raise him. He did raise Himself. Read John 2 again. The language is clear. Jesus says that He will raise His Body. It also clarifies that point by saying that after the ressurection the disciples understood Him to mean that He would raise His body. It says that they believed the scripture and the words Jesus had spoken.

They believed the words. Words have meaning. Jesus said that he would raise his body.

He did not say that He would have faith so that God could raise His body.


The language in Acts is clear then the woman's faith made her well and yet we are told jesus healed her, so she must be Jesus using your logic

[DRS]

Are you saying it would not have been possible for God to raise Jesus if Jesus did not have faith? I do not think that you really believe that.

Jesus said that HE would raise his body. That is what the passage says. Period.

John 2
19 Jesus answered them, “Destroy this temple, and I will raise it again in three days.”
20 The Jews replied, “It has taken forty-six years to build this temple, and you are going to raise it in three days?” 21 But the temple he had spoken of was his body. 22 After he was raised from the dead, his disciples recalled what he had said. Then they believed the Scripture and the words that Jesus had spoken.

Jesus knew he would be faithful unto death so he could boldly makes prediction, because as the perfecter and chief example of faith Jesus knew he would be rewarded for such

Are trying to say Jesus did not have faith?

[ralittlefield]

The language in Acts is clear then the woman's faith made her well and yet we are told jesus healed her, so she must be Jesus using your logic

Did that woman say she healed herself?

Jesus said that He would raise his body.

He did not talk about faith, he spoke about specific action that He would take, and specifically when He would take that action.

Words have meaning. Read the words Jesus spoke. Read the commentary John added.

[ralittlefield]

Jesus knew he would be faithful unto death so he could boldly makes prediction, because as the perfecter and chief example of faith Jesus knew he would be rewarded for such

Are trying to say Jesus did not have faith?


Jesus does not need faith.

Why would God need faith?

Are you trying to say that Jesus did not say that He would raise His body?

[DispensationalJim]

It is interesting, and instructive, that you can take a straightforward statement by Jesus, "Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up . . . But he spake of the temple of his body", pretend it doesn't mean what it says, bring in an irrelevant verse to support your denial, then imply I am somehow using false logic!

Incredible . . .

No matter what you may wish to believe, Jesus said he would raise Himself from the dead - and He did.

Atta boy, TJim!

Hey, I just noticed this Wed. night during our Bible study (our Pastor is going word by word through Acts). Check this out:

• Acts 1:6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?

• Acts 1:21 Wherefore of these men which have companied with us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us,

• Acts 1:24 And they prayed, and said, Thou, Lord, which knowest the hearts of all men, shew whether of these two thou hast chosen,

So, did the twelve know who THE LORD was, or not? The "title" LORD is used three times in Acts 1. Did they not call Jesus LORD twice, once directly, and once in reference to Him, and then finally did they not PRAY to Him???

And didn't Jesus indicate that He knew the thoughts and hearts of men?
• Matt. 9:4 And Jesus knowing their thoughts said, Wherefore think ye evil in your hearts?

Doesn't that make the LORD Jesus GOD??? (it sure does to me...)

[DispensationalJim]

Hello... hello... where did everybody go???

[Warrior4God]

Hello... hello... where did everybody go???

Hey DJim been reading but not posting.

Most that is being posted has been covered I think.

[ralittlefield]

Hey DJim been reading but not posting.

Most that is being posted has been covered I think.

I'm up for a refresher! Who knows, maybe you will convince me.

[THE LIGHT]

Should You Believe in the Trinity?

Is It Clearly a Bible Teaching?



IF THE Trinity were true, it should be clearly and consistently presented in the Bible. Why? Because, as the apostles affirmed, the Bible is God's revelation of himself to mankind. And since we need to know God to worship him acceptably, the Bible should be clear in telling us just who he is.


You are right, if the trinity is true and Biblical, then it should appear consistently throughout the Bible. The fact is, it does. The concept of the trinity is all thoughout the Bible even though you won't find the word "Trinity" used. Call it whatever you want, it is the concept that matters. Hope this helps.

[ralittlefield]

The deity of Christ has been given a lot of attention in this thread, as it should, but the discussion of the Holy Spirit has been scant.

What does the bible say about the Holy Spirit?

First, the bible presents Him as a person, not just an influence or force from God.

Second, the bible presents Him as deity, not just a mere person.

Thoughts?

[DispensationalJim]

The deity of Christ has been given a lot of attention in this thread, as it should, but the discussion of the Holy Spirit has been scant.

What does the bible say about the Holy Spirit?

First, the bible presents Him as a person, not just an influence or force from God.

Second, the bible presents Him as deity, not just a mere person.

Thoughts?

Thanks, ra, for reminding us of that. As I recall, there were a few posts debating some of the HS verses way back, but it can't hurt to run through them again.

==============================

I was hoping, though, to get some response to my post below (#15459) about the Lord in Acts 1. Any comments on that before we jump into the Holy Spirit discussion with both feet?

[lwdc]

The deity of Christ has been given a lot of attention in this thread, as it should, but the discussion of the Holy Spirit has been scant.

What does the bible say about the Holy Spirit?

First, the bible presents Him as a person, not just an influence or force from God.

Second, the bible presents Him as deity, not just a mere person.

Thoughts?According to the NT, the only unforgivable sin is blasphemy of the Holy Spirit, because it is blasphemy against God.

[ralittlefield]

According to the NT, the only unforgivable sin is blasphemy of the Holy Spirit, because it is blasphemy against God.

Excellent point.

[Fire Watch]

Good point indeed..but it doesnt equate to the Holy Ghost being a separate personage.

[ralittlefield]

Atta boy, TJim!

Hey, I just noticed this Wed. night during our Bible study (our Pastor is going word by word through Acts). Check this out:

• Acts 1:6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?

• Acts 1:21 Wherefore of these men which have companied with us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us,

• Acts 1:24 And they prayed, and said, Thou, Lord, which knowest the hearts of all men, shew whether of these two thou hast chosen,

So, did the twelve know who THE LORD was, or not? The "title" LORD is used three times in Acts 1. Did they not call Jesus LORD twice, once directly, and once in reference to Him, and then finally did they not PRAY to Him???

And didn't Jesus indicate that He knew the thoughts and hearts of men?
• Matt. 9:4 And Jesus knowing their thoughts said, Wherefore think ye evil in your hearts?

Doesn't that make the LORD Jesus GOD??? (it sure does to me...)


Interesting points Jim.

There are many instances in the bible where Jesus is given attributes of God.

Thanks for pointing this out.

[lwdc]

Good point indeed..but it doesnt equate to the Holy Ghost being a separate personage.Agreed.

The Trinity thread continues...

[ralittlefield]

Good point indeed..but it doesnt equate to the Holy Ghost being a separate personage.

Perhaps, but we do have other passages (like the baptism of Jesus) that do show Him as a separate personage.

[Fire Watch]

Perhaps, but we do have other passages (like the baptism of Jesus) that do show Him as a separate personage.
Not so much ;)

From about 18 months ago in this thread..
The baptism of Christ does not indicate a plurality in the Godhead. The dove was only a representation of God's Spirit for John to see(The purpose of the dove was that it symbolized the Holy Ghost. It must have been symbolic because the Holy Ghost is not a bird!) When the Holy Ghost descended upon Jesus, John saw a symbol of God's Spirit, not a person of the Godhead. The voice from heaven does not indicate that Jesus was a separate person from God either, but demonstrates the fact that God still existed as the omnipresent Spirit in heaven even after the incarnation. Jesus was God manifest in the flesh, and as such was willingly limited by the incarnation as it pertains to where His presence could be at any given time. To claim that the voice from heaven, or the appearance of the dove indicate a plurality in the Godhead is not warranted. This passage only demonstrates the omnipresence of God, and the relationship between the Father and the Son as it pertains to the incarnation.

The voice is never said to the be the voice of God. It is thought to be the voice of God because of the voice's reference to Jesus as "my beloved Son." Since it is God who is said to be Jesus' Father throughout the New Testament it is concluded that this had to be God speaking here. The Scripture says that Jesus was begotten by the Holy Ghost, thereby making Him Jesus' Father, so why could the voice not have been the Holy Ghost's (Matthew 1:20; Luke 1:35)? Was the Holy Ghost Jesus' Father, or was it God? Although I believe it was God who spoke, I am making this point to show the foolishness of trying to find all three members of a trinity here. This is a problem one will run into when trying to use this passage to split up the Godhead into members; however, when one understands that God is one, and that the Holy Ghost and Jesus are manifestations of this one God to man, passages like this are easily understood.

The purpose of Jesus' baptism was to reveal the identity of the Messiah to John the Baptist. John's ministry was to prepare the hearts of Israel for the LORD to visit them without consuming them in His wrath for their sins (Isaiah 40:3; Malachi 3:1-7; 4:5-6). That is why John came preaching repentance from sin, demanding to see visible evidence stemming from this repentance. He brought the people to understand their moral obligations and the importance of having one's heart right with God (Matthew 3:1-2, 5-12; Mark 1:4; Luke 3:3-14). John preached in the wilderness telling the people that although he baptized them with water to repentance, there was One coming after Him who was greater than he, and He would baptize them with the Holy Ghost (Matthew 3:11-12; Mark 1:7-8; Luke 3:16-17; John 1:23, 26, 30-31). John's ministry was to prepare the people for, and point the way toward the Messiah. John, however, did not know who this Messiah was (John 1:30-31). He did not know that His own cousin was God manifest in the flesh, the anointed Messiah for Israel and all the earth (Luke 1:34-41; John 1:30-31).

The lack of John's knowledge as to the identity of the Messiah is the purpose for the descent of the Holy Ghost in the form of a dove. In the gospel of John, John the Baptist used the first person singular "I," referring to who saw the dove, indicating that it was he who saw the Spirit of the Lord descending and abiding upon Jesus. Apparently John the Baptist was the only one who saw this phenomenon. He explained this is John 1:31-34 when he said:

"And I knew him not: but that he should be made manifest to Israel, therefore am I come baptizing with water. And John bare record, saying, I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and it abode upon him. And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost. And I saw, and bare record that this is the Son of God."

It was "He that sent" John to baptize which gave Him a personal sign so he could identify the Messiah for whom he prepared the way. This sign was that the Spirit of the Lord would descend and abide upon Him. God did not tell John that it would appear in the form of a dove, but that was the way it ended up happening. God had to make His Spirit visible in some way because He is invisible. If He did not appear in some type of visible form John would have had no way of seeing Him descend upon the Messiah. The appearance of the dove was only for John's sake so that He could finally know the identity of the One he had been preparing the way for. Once the Messiah was manifest to Israel, John's ministry was close to completion (John 3:30). In defense that John alone saw the dove, it can be argued that if others would have seen the dove there would have been no reason for John to relate the story to them as he did (John 1:29-36). After John saw the dove, he was able to boldly proclaim of Jesus, "Behold the Lamb of God!" (John 1:36)

[DRS]

Perhaps, but we do have other passages (like the baptism of Jesus) that do show Him as a separate personage.


Seen as a dove, that is not a person

21*Jesus, therefore, said to them again: “May YOU have peace. Just as the Father has sent me forth, I also am sending YOU.” 22*And after he said this he blew upon them and said to them: “Receive holy spirit. 23*If YOU forgive the sins of any persons, they stand forgiven to them; if YOU retain those of any persons, they stand retained

Can you blow a person Ralph

[ralittlefield]

The baptism of Christ does not indicate a plurality in the Godhead. The dove was only a representation of God's Spirit for John to see(The purpose of the dove was that it symbolized the Holy Ghost. It must have been symbolic because the Holy Ghost is not a bird!) When the Holy Ghost descended upon Jesus, John saw a symbol of God's Spirit, not a person of the Godhead. The voice from heaven does not indicate that Jesus was a separate person from God either, but demonstrates the fact that God still existed as the omnipresent Spirit in heaven even after the incarnation. Jesus was God manifest in the flesh, and as such was willingly limited by the incarnation as it pertains to where His presence could be at any given time. To claim that the voice from heaven, or the appearance of the dove indicate a plurality in the Godhead is not warranted. This passage only demonstrates the omnipresence of God, and the relationship between the Father and the Son as it pertains to the incarnation.

The voice is never said to the be the voice of God. It is thought to be the voice of God because of the voice's reference to Jesus as "my beloved Son." Since it is God who is said to be Jesus' Father throughout the New Testament it is concluded that this had to be God speaking here. The Scripture says that Jesus was begotten by the Holy Ghost, thereby making Him Jesus' Father, so why could the voice not have been the Holy Ghost's (Matthew 1:20; Luke 1:35)? Was the Holy Ghost Jesus' Father, or was it God? Although I believe it was God who spoke, I am making this point to show the foolishness of trying to find all three members of a trinity here. This is a problem one will run into when trying to use this passage to split up the Godhead into members; however, when one understands that God is one, and that the Holy Ghost and Jesus are manifestations of this one God to man, passages like this are easily understood.

The purpose of Jesus' baptism was to reveal the identity of the Messiah to John the Baptist. John's ministry was to prepare the hearts of Israel for the LORD to visit them without consuming them in His wrath for their sins (Isaiah 40:3; Malachi 3:1-7; 4:5-6). That is why John came preaching repentance from sin, demanding to see visible evidence stemming from this repentance. He brought the people to understand their moral obligations and the importance of having one's heart right with God (Matthew 3:1-2, 5-12; Mark 1:4; Luke 3:3-14). John preached in the wilderness telling the people that although he baptized them with water to repentance, there was One coming after Him who was greater than he, and He would baptize them with the Holy Ghost (Matthew 3:11-12; Mark 1:7-8; Luke 3:16-17; John 1:23, 26, 30-31). John's ministry was to prepare the people for, and point the way toward the Messiah. John, however, did not know who this Messiah was (John 1:30-31). He did not know that His own cousin was God manifest in the flesh, the anointed Messiah for Israel and all the earth (Luke 1:34-41; John 1:30-31).

The lack of John's knowledge as to the identity of the Messiah is the purpose for the descent of the Holy Ghost in the form of a dove. In the gospel of John, John the Baptist used the first person singular "I," referring to who saw the dove, indicating that it was he who saw the Spirit of the Lord descending and abiding upon Jesus. Apparently John the Baptist was the only one who saw this phenomenon. He explained this is John 1:31-34 when he said:

"And I knew him not: but that he should be made manifest to Israel, therefore am I come baptizing with water. And John bare record, saying, I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and it abode upon him. And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost. And I saw, and bare record that this is the Son of God."

It was "He that sent" John to baptize which gave Him a personal sign so he could identify the Messiah for whom he prepared the way. This sign was that the Spirit of the Lord would descend and abide upon Him. God did not tell John that it would appear in the form of a dove, but that was the way it ended up happening. God had to make His Spirit visible in some way because He is invisible. If He did not appear in some type of visible form John would have had no way of seeing Him descend upon the Messiah. The appearance of the dove was only for John's sake so that He could finally know the identity of the One he had been preparing the way for. Once the Messiah was manifest to Israel, John's ministry was close to completion (John 3:30). In defense that John alone saw the dove, it can be argued that if others would have seen the dove there would have been no reason for John to relate the story to them as he did (John 1:29-36). After John saw the dove, he was able to boldly proclaim of Jesus, "Behold the Lamb of God!" (John 1:36)


Notice that the passage in Matthew does not say that John (or anyone else for that matter) saw a dove.

It says that Jesus saw the Holy Spirit "decending as a dove".

Matthew 3

16 As soon as Jesus was baptized, he went up out of the water. At that moment heaven was opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and lighting on him.

[ralittlefield]

Seen as a dove, that is not a person

21*Jesus, therefore, said to them again: “May YOU have peace. Just as the Father has sent me forth, I also am sending YOU.” 22*And after he said this he blew upon them and said to them: “Receive holy spirit. 23*If YOU forgive the sins of any persons, they stand forgiven to them; if YOU retain those of any persons, they stand retained

Can you blow a person Ralph

How can this possibly be an issue for you? Did anyone say that the Holy Spirit had a physical body?

He was given at Pentecost in much the same way life was given to Adam at the creation. Why is that an issue?

[Fire Watch]

Notice that the passage in Matthew does not say that John (or anyone else for that matter) saw a dove.

It says that Jesus saw the Holy Spirit "decending as a dove".

Matthew 3

16 As soon as Jesus was baptized, he went up out of the water. At that moment heaven was opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and lighting on him.

Context, line upon line, precept upon precept and proper hermeneutics are key.

In the gospel of John, John the Baptist used the first person singular "I," referring to who saw the dove, indicating that it was he who saw the Spirit of the Lord descending and abiding upon Jesus. Apparently John the Baptist was the only one who saw this phenomenon. He explained this is John 1:31-34 when he said:

"And I knew him not: but that he should be made manifest to Israel, therefore am I come baptizing with water. And John bare record, saying, I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and it abode upon him. And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost. And I saw, and bare record that this is the Son of God."


Jesus didnt need a sign, he didnt need to hear a voice or see a "dove". Jesus KNEW who he was. Jesus IS God.

[Fire Watch]

The dove wasn't just for John (I think John knew)..
I have always thought of it as documentation from the Holy Spirit for you and me and anyone who reads it. Spoken verbal documentation. If John did have any doubts, that most certainly cleared them up.
John did NOT know. He stated this explicitly.

He explained this is John 1:31-34 when he said:

"And I knew him not: but that he should be made manifest to Israel, therefore am I come baptizing with water. And John bare record, saying, I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and it abode upon him. And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost. And I saw, and bare record that this is the Son of God."

[ralittlefield]

Context, line upon line, precept upon precept and proper hermeneutics are key.

In the gospel of John, John the Baptist used the first person singular "I," referring to who saw the dove, indicating that it was he who saw the Spirit of the Lord descending and abiding upon Jesus. Apparently John the Baptist was the only one who saw this phenomenon. He explained this is John 1:31-34 when he said:

"And I knew him not: but that he should be made manifest to Israel, therefore am I come baptizing with water. And John bare record, saying, I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and it abode upon him. And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost. And I saw, and bare record that this is the Son of God."


Jesus didnt need a sign, he didnt need to hear a voice or see a "dove". Jesus KNEW who he was. Jesus IS God.


Again the text says "saw the Spirit descending like a dove.

[Fire Watch]

Again the text says "saw the Spirit descending like a dove.
Apparently you havent read my entire post you keep finding issue with.

**The dove was only a representation of God's Spirit for John to see(The purpose of the dove was that it symbolized the Holy Ghost. It must have been symbolic because the Holy Ghost is not a bird!) When the Holy Ghost descended upon Jesus, John saw a symbol of God's Spirit, not a person of the Godhead**

[drmilo]

Context, line upon line, precept upon precept and proper hermeneutics are key.

In the gospel of John, John the Baptist used the first person singular "I," referring to who saw the dove, indicating that it was he who saw the Spirit of the Lord descending and abiding upon Jesus. Apparently John the Baptist was the only one who saw this phenomenon. He explained this is John 1:31-34 when he said:

"And I knew him not: but that he should be made manifest to Israel, therefore am I come baptizing with water. And John bare record, saying, I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and it abode upon him. And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost. And I saw, and bare record that this is the Son of God."


Jesus didnt need a sign, he didnt need to hear a voice or see a "dove". Jesus KNEW who he was. Jesus IS God.


Just to chime in here. Both in John and in Matthew the phrase used is "descending from heaven like a dove." The construction of this sentence is that of a similie. Similar to a metaphor, a similie is a comparative illustration. The Holy Spirit's descent is being compared, for illustrative purposes, like the descent of a dove. It does not mean that John saw a dove descend from heaven. It does not mean that the form the Holy Spirit used was that of a dove. Rather, it says that the descent of the Spirit was like a dove. It's like if I said, "His loping gait was like that of an antelope." I am not saying that the person whom I am describing looks like an antelope. But merely the way in which that person is moving reminds me of an antelope, and by describing it in this way, I am better able to illustrate to a reader how the person's movement looked. The same construct is used here. John nor Matthew say that a dove descended from heaven. Rather, they say that "the Spirit descended from heaven like a dove."

[Fire Watch]

Just to chime in here. Both in John and in Matthew the phrase used is "descending from heaven like a dove." The construction of this sentence is that of a similie. Similar to a metaphor, a similie is a comparative illustration. The Holy Spirit's descent is being compared, for illustrative purposes, like the descent of a dove. It does not mean that John saw a dove descend from heaven. It does not mean that the form the Holy Spirit used was that of a dove. Rather, it says that the descent of the Spirit was like a dove. It's like if I said, "His loping gait was like that of an antelope." I am not saying that the person whom I am describing looks like an antelope. But merely the way in which that person is moving reminds me of an antelope, and by describing it in this way, I am better able to illustrate to a reader how the person's movement looked. The same construct is used here. John nor Matthew say that a dove descended from heaven. Rather, they say that "the Spirit descended from heaven like a dove."

I guess I'll have to start shortening my posts so that folks will read them completely..

Again the text says "saw the Spirit descending like a dove.
Apparently you havent read my entire post you keep finding issue with.

**The dove was only a representation of God's Spirit for John to see(The purpose of the dove was that it symbolized the Holy Ghost. It must have been symbolic because the Holy Ghost is not a bird!) When the Holy Ghost descended upon Jesus, John saw a symbol of God's Spirit, not a person of the Godhead**

[drmilo]

Apparently you havent read my entire post you keep finding issue with.

Not sure it says he saw a dove at all. Only that the descent of the spirit was like a dove (a description of the Holy Spirit's descent, not a description of the Spirit himself.)

[ralittlefield]

Apparently you havent read my entire post you keep finding issue with.


I did read it. You are eloquent as usual.

I just disagree with you. See drmilo's post #15482. He expresses my point more clearly than I seem to be able to.

[Fire Watch]

I dont know if what John saw was in the shape of a dove, or simply descending "like" a dove would. It doesnt matter. What matters is the purpose of the incident.

[drmilo]

I dont know if what John saw was in the shape of a dove, or simply descending "like" a dove would. It doesnt matter. What matters is the purpose of the incident.

Agreed.

To me, this event show's John God. The Father's voice is present, yet the Father is invisible; the Spirit is present, descending from heaven (like a dove); and the Son is present. To me, this is God revealing his triune self to John, that he may know that he must decrease as Jesus increases.

[Fire Watch]

And I'll have to stick with my belief that the passage only demonstrates the omnipresence of God, and the relationship between the Father and the Son as it pertains to the incarnation.

[ralittlefield]

I guess I'll have to start shortening my posts so that folks will read them completely..


Apparently you havent read my entire post you keep finding issue with.

The account in Matthew 3 indicates that Jesus saw the same thing that John chapter 1 records John The Baptist seeing.

How can that be if the Holy Spirit is not a separate personage?

[Fire Watch]

The account in Matthew 3 indicates that Jesus saw the same thing that John chapter 1 records John The Baptist seeing.

How can that be if the Holy Spirit is not a separate personage?
I dont believe that's the case. I believe John made that clear in his account.

Even if they both saw the same manifestation, it still wouldnt indicate a separation of persons in the Godhead.

Jesus was both God and man. As a man, he experienced things as a man.

The only distinctions are between God as He exists omnipresent and transcendent, and God as He exists as a genuine human being. The distinction is not in the Godhead, but in the humanity of Jesus Christ. There is a three-fold revelation of God to man, but not a tripersonality in the Godhead. The Scripture never distinguishes between the deity of the Son and the deity of the Father.

[ralittlefield]

Another passage that shows the Holy Spirit as a separate person.

Also note that the Father is mentioned (Jesus is going to him).

John 16

5 “Now I am going to him who sent me, yet none of you asks me, ‘Where are you going?’ 6 Because I have said these things, you are filled with grief. 7 But I tell you the truth: It is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Counselor will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you. 8 When he comes, he will convict the world of guilt in regard to sin and righteousness and judgment: 9 in regard to sin, because men do not believe in me; 10 in regard to righteousness, because I am going to the Father, where you can see me no longer; 11 and in regard to judgment, because the prince of this world now stands condemned.
12 “I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear. 13 But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. 14 He will bring glory to me by taking from what is mine and making it known to you. 15 All that belongs to the Father is mine. That is why I said the Spirit will take from what is mine and make it known to you.
16 “In a little while you will see me no more, and then after a little while you will see me.”

[ralittlefield]

I dont believe that's the case. I believe John made that clear in his account.

Even if they both saw the same manifestation, it still wouldnt indicate a separation of persons in the Godhead.

Jesus was both God and man. As a man, he experienced things as a man.

The only distinctions are between God as He exists omnipresent and transcendent, and God as He exists as a genuine human being. The distinction is not in the Godhead, but in the humanity of Jesus Christ. There is a three-fold revelation of God to man, but not a tripersonality in the Godhead. The Scripture never distinguishes between the deity of the Son and the deity of the Father.


I completly agree with the portion that I have underlined. I believe that they are the same God.

[Fire Watch]

Another passage that shows the Holy Spirit as a separate person.

Also note that the Father is mentioned (Jesus is going to him).

John 16

5 “Now I am going to him who sent me, yet none of you asks me, ‘Where are you going?’ 6 Because I have said these things, you are filled with grief. 7 But I tell you the truth: It is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Counselor will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you. 8 When he comes, he will convict the world of guilt in regard to sin and righteousness and judgment: 9 in regard to sin, because men do not believe in me; 10 in regard to righteousness, because I am going to the Father, where you can see me no longer; 11 and in regard to judgment, because the prince of this world now stands condemned.
12 “I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear. 13 But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. 14 He will bring glory to me by taking from what is mine and making it known to you. 15 All that belongs to the Father is mine. That is why I said the Spirit will take from what is mine and make it known to you.
16 “In a little while you will see me no more, and then after a little while you will see me.”

Jesus also said that He would pray to the Father to give the disciples another Comforter. This Comforter was identified as the Holy Spirit (John 14:16-17, 26). The Holy Spirit would be sent by the Father to teach the disciples. Then Jesus said that He was that Spirit that would come to them by saying, "At that day you will know that I am in my Father, and you in me, and I in you" (John 14:20). He couldnt have been referring to being in them physically, for that would be impossible. He could only be referring to Himself as the Spirit.

John didnt record all of these statements to show that Jesus’ deity was in some way inferior to the Father or separate from Him. It wouldnt seem likely since John's gospel also contains some of the most powerful assertions of Jesus' deity and equality with God. Such statements include "I and my Father are one," "Before Abraham was, I am," and "He who has seen me has seen the Father."

In Romans 9:9, 11, Paul said, "But you are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if the Spirit of the God dwells in you. Now if any man does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. … But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also give life to your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwells in you." In verse 15 we are said to be filled with the Spirit. If the Spirit of God is the Father as contrasted with the Spirit of Christ, and the Spirit of adoption, then we are said to be filled with the Father, Christ, and the Holy Spirit. These names are used interchangeably. It cant be that we are filled with three Spirits, for there is only one Spirit (Ephesians 4:4). It seems that the Holy Spirit is the Father, and is the Spirit of Christ (II Corinthians 3:17, Acts 5:3 with 5:4; Romans 8:26 8:34; I Corinthians 3:16 with 6:19). Calvin, referring to Romans 8:9-11, said, "…the Son is said to be of the Father only; the Spirit of both the Father and the Son. This is done in many passages, but none more clearly than in the eighth chapter of Romans, where the same Spirit is called indiscriminately the Spirit of Christ, and the Spirit of him who raised up Christ from the dead.

We can make as much distinction between God and His Spirit as we can between a man and his spirit. Paul seemed to make this point when he said concerning the deep things of God: "But God has revealed them to us by His Spirit: for the Spirit searches all things, yes, even the deep things of God. For what man knows the things of a man, except the spirit of man which is in him? Even so no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God" (I Corinthians 2:12-13). I can distinguish my spirit from my flesh, and speak of my spirit as distinct from me, but my spirit isnt a distinct person within me. I am one person, a unified whole, being both body and spirit. God’s Spirit is no more distinct from Him than my spirit is from me.

[THE LIGHT]

Can I get anybody to agree with me that you really need to read the Bible in it's entirety to see the big picture, and that there are some things which we can derive from deduction even though they are not spelled out in black and white print?

I mean for a very simple example, Jesus first miracle he turned water into wine.
There are some that will argue that it was grapejuice instead.
The scripture clearly tells us that the wedding guests were drunk.
Can we not derive then, without a doubt that the wine was really fermented wine.

So, when we read in entirety, we know that the Triune Godhead is inferred even though it isn't in black and white.

I agree with you!:angel:

[Fire Watch]

^ apparently believes John to be a liar?

[ralittlefield]

Jesus also said that He would pray to the Father to give the disciples another Comforter. This Comforter was identified as the Holy Spirit (John 14:16-17, 26). The Holy Spirit would be sent by the Father to teach the disciples. Then Jesus said that He was that Spirit that would come to them by saying, "At that day you will know that I am in my Father, and you in me, and I in you" (John 14:20). He couldnt have been referring to being in them physically, for that would be impossible. He could only be referring to Himself as the Spirit.

If Jesus is the comforter, why would He use the term "another" in reference to the Comfortter that was coming?

Words have meaning. They are used for a reason. It seems significant to this discussion that the word another was used.



John didnt record all of these statements to show that Jesus’ deity was in some way inferior to the Father or separate from Him. It wouldnt seem likely since John's gospel also contains some of the most powerful assertions of Jesus' deity and equality with God. Such statements include "I and my Father are one," "Before Abraham was, I am," and "He who has seen me has seen the Father."


I agree.


In Romans 9:9, 11, Paul said, "But you are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if the Spirit of the God dwells in you. Now if any man does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. … But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also give life to your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwells in you." In verse 15 we are said to be filled with the Spirit. If the Spirit of God is the Father as contrasted with the Spirit of Christ, and the Spirit of adoption, then we are said to be filled with the Father, Christ, and the Holy Spirit. These names are used interchangeably. It cant be that we are filled with three Spirits, for there is only one Spirit (Ephesians 4:4). It seems that the Holy Spirit is the Father, and is the Spirit of Christ (II Corinthians 3:17, Acts 5:3 with 5:4; Romans 8:26 8:34; I Corinthians 3:16 with 6:19). Calvin, referring to Romans 8:9-11, said, "…the Son is said to be of the Father only; the Spirit of both the Father and the Son. This is done in many passages, but none more clearly than in the eighth chapter of Romans, where the same Spirit is called indiscriminately the Spirit of Christ, and the Spirit of him who raised up Christ from the dead.

Note these phrases from your statement:
Spirit of him that raised up Jesus & he that raised up Christ

Does that not sound like one person acting on another?


We can make as much distinction between God and His Spirit as we can between a man and his spirit. Paul seemed to make this point when he said concerning the deep things of God: "But God has revealed them to us by His Spirit: for the Spirit searches all things, yes, even the deep things of God. For what man knows the things of a man, except the spirit of man which is in him? Even so no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God" (I Corinthians 2:12-13). I can distinguish my spirit from my flesh, and speak of my spirit as distinct from me, but my spirit isnt a distinct person within me. I am one person, a unified whole, being both body and spirit. God’s Spirit is no more distinct from Him than my spirit is from me.

This actually makes sense to me. I will have to give this some thought.

[Warrior4God]

I did read it. You are eloquent as usual.

I just disagree with you. See drmilo's post #15482. He expresses my point more clearly than I seem to be able to.

I agree with your disagreement.

If the Spirit were not a seperate person(for lack of a better word)then it would not be descending at all.

drmilo can express his point better then any of us.

One smart cookie.

Thats why he is hard to debate.

You are too for that matter.

Just popped in to see how things are going.

God bless you guys(and girls,but not too many girls chime in)

[Meriweather]

John knew Jesus was the Messiah before he baptized Him:

Mat 3:13 ¶ Then cometh Jesus from Galilee to Jordan unto John, to be baptized of him.
Mat 3:14 But John forbad him, saying, I have need to be baptized of thee, and comest thou to me?
Mat 3:15 And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer [it to be so] now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him.
Mat 3:16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:

Not only did John know who he was, John's mission was that of Elijah...to make the path straight for the Savior...

John and Jesus were first cousins:

Instead of trying to pit one Gospel against another, let's dig a little deeper into the purposes of both authors. I find Matthew's use of the literary techniques of parallels and foreshadowings throughout his Gospel impressive

Matthew begins his baptism account with the leaders of Judaism, the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to John for baptism. John calls them a brood of vipers, which parallels the Old Testament prophets chastising the leaders of those days. It asserts John's authority, as prophet, over the present day leaders.

Next Jesus appears on scene, and Matthew immediately sets forth the picture that Jesus, even before his baptism, was being acknowledged by a prophet as a man greater than the prophet.

Matthew stresses that Jesus authority, from the beginning (even before Jesus' baptism) is greater than the authority of Jewish leaders, and even greater than the authority of Jewish prophets.


Also, not that it truly matters....If Mary and Elizabeth were cousins, then Mary and John would have been first cousins, once removed; Jesus and John would have been second cousins.

Luke 1:35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.
Luke 1:36 And, behold, thy cousin Elisabeth, she hath also conceived a son in her old age: and this is the sixth month with her, who was called barren.

John was 6 months older than Jesus, and they were cousins because Mary and Elizabeth were cousins.
Not only did John know who He was, he knew it while he was in the womb, and Elizabeth knew as well...

Luke 1:41 And it came to pass, that, when Elisabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elisabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit:
Luke 1:42 And she spake out with a loud voice, and said, Blessed [art] thou among women, and blessed [is] the fruit of thy womb.
Luke 1:43 And whence [is] this to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?
Luke 1:44 For, lo, as soon as the voice of thy salutation sounded in mine ears, the babe leaped in my womb for joy.

While I am on this subject, I want to take this a little deeper.
Since Mary and Elizabeth were cousins, that means that each had a parent that were sisters.
Elizabeth was married to Zechariah, who was a Levite Priest. By law, a Levite Priest could only marry a Levite. That means that Elizabeth's Mother was a Levite.

Since we know that Mary's father, Heli, was Jewish we thereby know that it was Mary's Mother was a Levite also, being the sister of Elizabeth's Mother.

So Mary's father was Jewish and her mother was a Levite.

Jesus was therefore both Jewish and Levite...the King line and the Priest line rolled into one, or better said "King of kings, Lord of lords".


We should also remember that John was born to elderly parents, and that there is some indication John may have been of the Essene community, who did foster children. In other words, even though Jesus and John were distant cousins, we do not know whether they knew each other, or even met, before Jesus' baptism.

[DRS]

How can this possibly be an issue for you? Did anyone say that the Holy Spirit had a physical body?

He was given at Pentecost in much the same way life was given to Adam at the creation. Why is that an issue?

so you have person with no body and no name, seems you are arging more and more the spirit of God is not a person

interesting because Adam was not given a person her was given the breath of life and became a living soul, but the hebrew word for spirit is very much like wind and breathe

[DRS]

The "Father" is the manifestation of the Holy Spirit in a bodily form. That is who Christ was before he was born in the flesh as Jesus.

Wherever Jesus Christ and the Father are, the Holy Spirit is also.

Understand that we also have a flesh body as well as a spirit body. Adam did to. Without the spirit our flesh body would be nothing more than a chunk of flesh with a nervous system for sensation and feeling. Our spirit, in a way, is our intellect.

Christ in the spirit body was with the Holy Spirit before He had created anything. I believe that He took on that form of the Father in order to "dwell" with His creations. We are created in His image, so are the angels and so is the flesh man.
When you die, that spirit body steps out and goes back to the Father who gave it. You cannot see the dimension that Heaven is in while you are in the flesh, but the second you die and are wholly back into the spirit body, then you will see God and Heaven...


So what did you do with the OT part of your bible

Do you know what Christ means?

[DRS]

Psalm 110 say Jehovah said to my lord

so the only one who alone is the Most High God spoke to the preincarnate Jesus

The same one seen brought before the Ancient of Days in Daniel

And the one whom Jehovah says is his servent in Isaiah

[Fire Watch]

If Jesus is the comforter, why would He use the term "another" in reference to the Comfortter that was coming?

Words have meaning. They are used for a reason. It seems significant to this discussion that the word another was used.


Note these phrases from your statement:
Spirit of him that raised up Jesus & he that raised up Christ

Does that not sound like one person acting on another?


John 14:16 says the Father would send another Comforter, namely the Holy Ghost, yet in John 14:18 Jesus said, "I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you." In other words, the other Comforter is Jesus in another form - in the Spirit rather than the flesh. Jesus explained this in verse 17, saying that the Comforter was with the disciples already, but He would soon be in them. In other words, the Holy Ghost was with them in the person of Jesus Christ, but the Holy Ghost, the Spirit of Jesus Christ, soon would be in them. Jesus further explained this point in John 16:7, saying that He had to go away or else the Comforter wouldnt come. Why? As long as Jesus was present with them in the flesh He wouldnt he present spiritually in their hearts, but after He physically departed He would send back His own Spirit to he with them.

The Holy Spirit is called the Spirit of Jesus Christ (Philippians 1:19). and the Spirit of the Son (Galatians 4:6). Second Corinthians 3:17 says of the one Spirit, "Now the Lord is that Spirit." The NIV puts it even plainer,saying, "Now the Lord is the Spirit," and "the Lord who is the Spirit" (verse 18). In short, the Spirit that is resident in Jesus Christ is none other than the Holy Spirit. The Spirit in the Son is the Holy Ghost.

The one God is Father of all, is holy, and is a Spirit. Therefore, the titles Father and Holy Spirit describe the same being. To put it another way, the one God can and does fill simultaneously the two roles of Father and Holy Spirit. The Scriptures bear this out.

John 3:16 says God is the Father of Jesus Christ and Jesus referred to the Father as His own Father many times (John 5:17-18). Yet Matthew 1:18-20 and Luke 1:35 plainly state that the Holy Ghost is the Father of Jesus Christ. According to these verses of Scripture, Jesus was conceived by the Holy Ghost and was born the Son of God as a result.

The one who causes conception to take place is the father. Since all verses of Scripture in reference to the conception or begetting of the Son of God speak of the Holy Ghost as the agent of conception, its evident that the father of the human body is the Spirit....its only reasonable to conclude that the Holy Ghost is the Father of Jesus Christ, the Son of God.

In Joel 2:27-29 JHWH says.."I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh." Peter applied this verse of Scripture to the baptism of the Holy Ghost on the Day of Pentecost (Acts 2:1-4,16-18). So he beleived the Holy Ghost is the Spirit of the one Jehovah God of the Old Testament. Since there is only one Spirit, obviously the Spirit of Jehovah must be the Holy Spirit.

The Bible calls the Holy Spirit the "Spirit of the LORD" (Isaiah 40:13), the Spirit of God (Genesis 1:2), and the Spirit of the Father (Matthew 10:20). Since there is only one Spirit, all these phrases must refer to the same being. The Holy Spirit is none other than Jehovah God and none other than the Father.

God the Father raised Jesus from the dead (Acts 2:24; Ephesians 1:17-20), yet the Spirit raised Jesus from the dead (Romans 8:11).

God the Father quickens (gives life to) the dead (Romans 4:17; I Timothy 6:13), yet the Spirit will do so (Romans 8:11).
The Spirit adopts us, which means He is our Father (Romans 8:15-16).

The Holy Spirit fills the life of a Christian (John 14:17; Acts 4:31), yet the Spirit of the Father fills hearts (Ephesians 3:14-16). Its the Father who lives in us (John 14:23).

The Holy Ghost is our Comforter (John 14:26, Greek parakletos), yet God the Father is the God of all comfort (paraklesis) who comforts (parakaleo) us in all our tribulation (II Corinthians 1:3-4).

The Spirit sanctifies us (I Peter 1:2), yet the Father sanctifies us (Jude 1).

All Scripture is given by inspiration of God (II Timothy 3:16), yet the Old Testament prophets were moved by the Holy Ghost (II Peter 1:21).

Our bodies are temples of God (I Corinthians 3:16-17), yet they are temples of the Holy Ghost (I Corinthians 6:19).

The Spirit of the Father will give us words to say in time of persecution (Matthew 10:20), but the Holy Ghost will do so (Mark 13:11).

From all these verses of Scripture we have to conclude that Father and Holy Ghost are simply two different descriptions of the one God. The two terms describe the same being but they emphasize or highlight different aspects, roles, or functions that He possesses.

The terms Father, Son, and Holy Ghost cant imply three separate persons, personalities, wills, or beings. They can only denote different aspects or roles of one Spirit-being - the one God. They describe God's relationships to man, not persons in a Godhead. We use Father to emphasize God's roles as Creator, Father of spirits, Father of the born-again believers, and Father of the humanity of Jesus Christ. We use Son to mean both the humanity of Jesus Christ and God as He manifested Himself in the flesh for the purpose of man's salvation. We use Holy Ghost to emphasize God's active power in the world and among men, particularly His work in regeneration.

[ralittlefield]

so you have person with no body and no name, seems you are arging more and more the spirit of God is not a person

interesting because Adam was not given a person her was given the breath of life and became a living soul, but the hebrew word for spirit is very much like wind and breathe

God is a person. That does not mean He is human.

[ralittlefield]

John 14:16 says the Father would send another Comforter, namely the Holy Ghost, yet in John 14:18 Jesus said, "I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you." In other words, the other Comforter is Jesus in another form - in the Spirit rather than the flesh. Jesus explained this in verse 17, saying that the Comforter was with the disciples already, but He would soon be in them. In other words, the Holy Ghost was with them in the person of Jesus Christ, but the Holy Ghost, the Spirit of Jesus Christ, soon would be in them. Jesus further explained this point in John 16:7, saying that He had to go away or else the Comforter wouldnt come. Why? As long as Jesus was present with them in the flesh He wouldnt he present spiritually in their hearts, but after He physically departed He would send back His own Spirit to he with them.

The Holy Spirit is called the Spirit of Jesus Christ (Philippians 1:19). and the Spirit of the Son (Galatians 4:6). Second Corinthians 3:17 says of the one Spirit, "Now the Lord is that Spirit." The NIV puts it even plainer,saying, "Now the Lord is the Spirit," and "the Lord who is the Spirit" (verse 18). In short, the Spirit that is resident in Jesus Christ is none other than the Holy Spirit. The Spirit in the Son is the Holy Ghost.

The one God is Father of all, is holy, and is a Spirit. Therefore, the titles Father and Holy Spirit describe the same being. To put it another way, the one God can and does fill simultaneously the two roles of Father and Holy Spirit. The Scriptures bear this out.

John 3:16 says God is the Father of Jesus Christ and Jesus referred to the Father as His own Father many times (John 5:17-18). Yet Matthew 1:18-20 and Luke 1:35 plainly state that the Holy Ghost is the Father of Jesus Christ. According to these verses of Scripture, Jesus was conceived by the Holy Ghost and was born the Son of God as a result.

The one who causes conception to take place is the father. Since all verses of Scripture in reference to the conception or begetting of the Son of God speak of the Holy Ghost as the agent of conception, its evident that the father of the human body is the Spirit....its only reasonable to conclude that the Holy Ghost is the Father of Jesus Christ, the Son of God.

In Joel 2:27-29 JHWH says.."I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh." Peter applied this verse of Scripture to the baptism of the Holy Ghost on the Day of Pentecost (Acts 2:1-4,16-18). So he beleived the Holy Ghost is the Spirit of the one Jehovah God of the Old Testament. Since there is only one Spirit, obviously the Spirit of Jehovah must be the Holy Spirit.

The Bible calls the Holy Spirit the "Spirit of the LORD" (Isaiah 40:13), the Spirit of God (Genesis 1:2), and the Spirit of the Father (Matthew 10:20). Since there is only one Spirit, all these phrases must refer to the same being. The Holy Spirit is none other than Jehovah God and none other than the Father.

God the Father raised Jesus from the dead (Acts 2:24; Ephesians 1:17-20), yet the Spirit raised Jesus from the dead (Romans 8:11).

God the Father quickens (gives life to) the dead (Romans 4:17; I Timothy 6:13), yet the Spirit will do so (Romans 8:11).
The Spirit adopts us, which means He is our Father (Romans 8:15-16).

The Holy Spirit fills the life of a Christian (John 14:17; Acts 4:31), yet the Spirit of the Father fills hearts (Ephesians 3:14-16). Its the Father who lives in us (John 14:23).

The Holy Ghost is our Comforter (John 14:26, Greek parakletos), yet God the Father is the God of all comfort (paraklesis) who comforts (parakaleo) us in all our tribulation (II Corinthians 1:3-4).

The Spirit sanctifies us (I Peter 1:2), yet the Father sanctifies us (Jude 1).

All Scripture is given by inspiration of God (II Timothy 3:16), yet the Old Testament prophets were moved by the Holy Ghost (II Peter 1:21).

Our bodies are temples of God (I Corinthians 3:16-17), yet they are temples of the Holy Ghost (I Corinthians 6:19).

The Spirit of the Father will give us words to say in time of persecution (Matthew 10:20), but the Holy Ghost will do so (Mark 13:11).

From all these verses of Scripture we have to conclude that Father and Holy Ghost are simply two different descriptions of the one God. The two terms describe the same being but they emphasize or highlight different aspects, roles, or functions that He possesses.

The terms Father, Son, and Holy Ghost cant imply three separate persons, personalities, wills, or beings. They can only denote different aspects or roles of one Spirit-being - the one God. They describe God's relationships to man, not persons in a Godhead. We use Father to emphasize God's roles as Creator, Father of spirits, Father of the born-again believers, and Father of the humanity of Jesus Christ. We use Son to mean both the humanity of Jesus Christ and God as He manifested Himself in the flesh for the purpose of man's salvation. We use Holy Ghost to emphasize God's active power in the world and among men, particularly His work in regeneration.

You have given an impressive list of actions that are credited to both the Father and the Holy Spirit.

I would add to that list the fact that God is called the Creator in the Gen, yet Jesus is shown to be the Creator in John 1 & Col 1.


But how does this prove that they can't be 3 separate persons?

To me, these verses support the doctrine of the Trinity rather than argue against it.

The facts are that "Jesus will send the Holy Spirit" , "God raised Jesus" , "God gave His Son", "Jesus prayed to the Father" etc.

All of these required two persons. A subject and an object. A person acting, and a person being acted on.