Should You Believe In The Trinity?

[Koushi Shinigami]

I have not seen it proven that the current Jewish interpretation of the scripture in question was ALWAYS the Jewish interpretation. I have yet to see it proven that the current opinion on what is and what isn't a messianic prophecy has ALWAYS been the prevailing thought.

It is just as much possible that the Jewish leadership, realizing they missed the messiah, realizing if they then turned to follow the teaching of the messiah, changed the prevailing thought on what is and what isn't a messianic prophecy. It wouldn't be the first time people did such things the hold onto their own power and authority. Just because they were Jewish and rabbis doesn't make them immune to such dealings, temptations, and corruptions.

Just because a prophecy isn't fulfilled as someone EXPECTS it to be fulfilled, doesn't mean it wasn't fulfilled.



A 2000 year old Jewish conspiracy to cover up the coming of the Mesiah?????


Thin, man. Very thin. :rolleyes:

[lwdc]

Considering how much of christianity is based on Judiaism, does your statement worry you at all?Virtually nothing of Christianity is based on Judaism, if anything at all.

[lwdc]

A 2000 year old Jewish conspiracy to cover up the coming of the Mesiah?????.When the chief priests had met with the elders and devised a plan, they gave the soldiers a large sum of money, telling them, "You are to say, 'His disciples came during the night and stole him away while we were asleep.' If this report gets to the governor, we will satisfy him and keep you out of trouble." So the soldiers took the money and did as they were instructed. And this story has been widely circulated among the Jews to this very day.
- Matthew 28:12-15

[Koushi Shinigami]

Virtually nothing of Christianity is based on Judaism, if anything at all.

Old Testament?

[lwdc]

Old Testament?What about it?

[CMike11]

:mrgreen:I believe someone on here threatened Jacob Rising about what he was posting here and threatened to seek an end to the board if he posted on certain topics

I don't respond to threats so easily

[CMike11]

In your opinion. Ever think that maybe, just maybe, the Jewish interpretation might be wrong?

I hold a much different opinion.

No.

It is jewish scripture.

It was written by jews, for jews.


Not written by jews, for jews, to be distorted by non-jews so it validates their beliefs.

You have a right to distort it, I have a right ot point it out.

[CMike11]

A 2000 year old Jewish conspiracy to cover up the coming of the Mesiah?????


Thin, man. Very thin. :rolleyes:

:))

The jews want the messiah to come, the messiah is a large part of jewish beliefs.

We are waiting for him to come and the prophesies to be fulfilled.

BTW I just finished watching "Mr Smith Goes To Washington".

Kind of a similarity :mrgreen:

[lwdc]

:mrgreen:

I don't respond to threats so easilyEven though you and J_R have big differences in belief, both you and J_R stick to your guns and roll with the punches. I gotta say, these are qualities worthy of respect.

[CMike11]

What about it?

I would suggest that since you are using the Old Testament, the Jewish bible, to validate the beliefs, and since the bible (OT) was written for jews, by jews, and studied in every detail for thousands, of years by jews who, have dedicated their lives to doing so, jews probably understand the OT better than than non jews.

[CMike11]

Even though you and J_R have big differences in belief, both you and J_R stick to your guns and roll with the punches. I gotta say, these are qualities worthy of respect.

Thank you.

Yanno...if everyone would just realize that I am right, it would save a lot of time and trouble.:))

[Meriweather]

Considering how much of christianity is based on Judiaism, does your statement worry you at all?

Where Christianity and Judaism became divided is in their two interpretations of the promised Messiah.

When David's kingdom fell, and the First Temple was destroyed, the prophecy was that the original Temple would be rebuilt and another King from David's line would bring to Israel its former glory--the glory of David's time. Indeed, the first Temple was rebuilt and the Jews looked for an earthly ruler to fulfill the second part of the prophecy.

Christians believe God had other plans in a Messiah--plans that did not date back to a king, but a time before kings--to Moses, in fact. Christians believe that God became man (Oneness/Trinity applies here) and taught us how the Kingdom of God might be established on Earth. This Kingdom would not start with a king; this Kingdom would start with us as individuals, bringing peace and love into our given lives, then spreading like yeast, until peace and love permeates our entire world.

The time of the Second Temple passed with no earthly king--just the advent of Jesus, "The King of the Jews." We, his followers were to be the Temples of God, and make up the Kingdom of God.

Meanwhile, the Jews transferred the prophecies regarding the Second Temple to a Third Temple, and continue to look for an earthly king.

In a nutshell, this is our division. Isaiah and Jeremiah both wrote of prophecies with the Second Temple in mind. The name of the author of the Book of Daniel isn't known. In fact, Daniel is more an example of apocalyptic literature that was so popular at the time it was written (circa 165 BC), and by comparison not really a prophetic book. However, it came to be seen as prophetic after the destruction of the Second Temple.

Christians have good reason for interpreting the prophets (who wrote of the Second Temple period) and relating it to Jesus. No other king made an appearance. The Jews, quite naturally, now interpret the prophets to mean the time period when both the Temple is standing and the descendant of David is Ruler.

Everyone here is quite capable of deciding where he or she stands on the issue--and also of respecting the opposite point of view.

[lwdc]

I would suggest that since you are using the Old Testament, the Jewish bible, to validate the beliefs, and since the bible (OT) was written for jews, by jews, and studied in every detail for thousands, of years by jews who, have dedicated their lives to doing so, jews probably understand the OT better than than non jews.Some of those Jews were authors of the NT books.

My point to Koushi was that Judaism and Christianity are distinct.

[Meriweather]

I would suggest that since you are using the Old Testament, the Jewish bible, to validate the beliefs, and since the bible (OT) was written for jews, by jews, and studied in every detail for thousands, of years by jews who, have dedicated their lives to doing so, jews probably understand the OT better than than non jews.

Christians believe that God also had a part in the writing of scripture.

Christians believe scripture is God's word, meant for all of mankind; we don't believe scripture is only the word of man meant for onlya certain few other men.

[CMike11]

Where Christianity and Judaism became divided is in their two interpretations of the promised Messiah.

When David's kingdom fell, and the First Temple was destroyed, the prophecy was that the original Temple would be rebuilt and another King from David's line would bring to Israel its former glory--the glory of David's time. Indeed, the first Temple was rebuilt and the Jews looked for an earthly ruler to fulfill the second part of the prophecy.

The prophesy regarding the messiah is that when the messiah comes the temple wil be rebuilt and stand forever

This is clearly stated in Ezekiel 37. It says it pretty explicitly.

26. And I will form a covenant of peace for them, an everlasting covenant shall be with them; and I will establish them and I will multiply them, and I will place My Sanctuary in their midst forever.
27. And My dwelling place shall be over them, and I will be to them for a God, and they shall be to Me as a people.
28. And the nations shall know that I am the Lord, Who sanctifies Israel, when My Sanctuary is in their midst forever."


Christians believe God had other plans in a Messiah--plans that did not date back to a king, but a time before kings--to Moses, in fact. Christians believe that God became man (Oneness/Trinity applies here) and taught us how the Kingdom of God might be established on Earth. This Kingdom would not start with a king; this Kingdom would start with us as individuals, bringing peace and love into our given lives, then spreading like yeast, until peace and love permeates our entire world..

I can't argue with what christians believe.

The time of the Second Temple passed with no earthly king--just the advent of Jesus, "The King of the Jews." We, his followers were to be the Temples of God, and make up the Kingdom of God.

I object to calling Jesus the "King of the Jews." This is almost as true as calling Mohammed "King of the Christians."

Jesus was not the king of the jews except in his mind and his followers.

In fact, that is another prophesy. When the messiah comes, the messiah will be uniformly recongnized by the jews to be the king. There would be no doubt.

Ezekiel 37 again

22. And I will make them into one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel, and one king shall be to them all as a king; and they shall no longer be two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms anymore.

23. And they shall no longer defile themselves with their idols, with their detestable things, or with all their transgressions, and I will save them from all their habitations in which they have sinned, and I will purify them, and they shall be to Me as a people, and I will be to them as a God.
24. And My servant David shall be king over them, and one shepherd shall be for them all, and they shall walk in My ordinances and observe My statutes and perform them.

Meanwhile, the Jews transferred the prophecies regarding the Second Temple to a Third Temple, and continue to look for an earthly king.

The Jews didn't transfer the prophesies :rolleyes:

It was jewish scripture, written by jews, for jews. It's the christians that changed/ignored the prophesies that were written by the prophets.




In a nutshell, this is our division. Isaiah and Jeremiah both wrote of prophecies with the Second Temple in mind. The name of the author of the Book of Daniel isn't known. In fact, Daniel is more an example of apocalyptic literature that was so popular at the time it was written (circa 165 BC), and by comparison not really a prophetic book. However, it came to be seen as prophetic after the destruction of the Second Temple.

Where exactly did Isaiah say he was talking about the 2nd temple? The prophesy stated that after this rebuilding of the temple, it will stand forever. There is no other temple after this temple.



Christians have good reason for interpreting the prophets (who wrote of the Second Temple period) and relating it to Jesus. No other king made an appearance. The Jews, quite naturally, now interpret the prophets to mean the time period when both the Temple is standing and the descendant of David is Ruler.

I seem to recall a King David and a King Solomon.

Also Jesus was not a king by any stretch of the imagination. He might have led his followers, but he certainly wasn't a king of the jews.

Here is Ezekiel and the prophesies again.

Michah has the one for the messiah leading in world peace.

21. And say to them, So says the Lord God: Behold I will take the children of Israel from among the nations where they have gone, and I will gather them from every side, and I will bring them to their land.
22. And I will make them into one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel, and one king shall be to them all as a king; and they shall no longer be two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms anymore.
23. And they shall no longer defile themselves with their idols, with their detestable things, or with all their transgressions, and I will save them from all their habitations in which they have sinned, and I will purify them, and they shall be to Me as a people, and I will be to them as a God.
24. And My servant David shall be king over them, and one shepherd shall be for them all, and they shall walk in My ordinances and observe My statutes and perform them.
25. And they shall dwell on the land that I have given to My servant, to Jacob, wherein your forefathers lived; and they shall dwell upon it, they and their children and their children's children, forever; and My servant David shall be their prince forever.

26. And I will form a covenant of peace for them, an everlasting covenant shall be with them; and I will establish them and I will multiply them, and I will place My Sanctuary in their midst forever.
27. And My dwelling place shall be over them, and I will be to them for a God, and they shall be to Me as a people.
28. And the nations shall know that I am the Lord, Who sanctifies Israel, when My Sanctuary is in their midst forever."

They really are pretty clear and explicit

http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/16135/jewish/Chapter-37.htm

[Meriweather]

Thank you, Mike. But this is the Trinity thread. I am aware of how Jews interpret Ezekiel. The one way they don't interpret him and this particular prophecy is as "false" based on the fact that the rebuilt Temple did not stand forever.

If you want to take this discussion to a new thread, that would be fine. Here in this thread, I would like to resume study of Trinity and Oneness, please.

[DispensationalJim]

Thank you, Mike. But this is the Trinity thread. I am aware of how Jews interpret Ezekiel. The one way they don't interpret him and this particular prophecy is as "false" based on the fact that the rebuilt Temple did not stand forever.

If you want to take this discussion to a new thread, that would be fine. Here in this thread, I would like to resume study of Trinity and Oneness, please.

Amen, Meri.

=======================

And for CMike11, since I was partly to blame for getting us so tangled in Isaiah 53, I would invite you, Mike, to rejoin the "Prophecies Made by Jesus" thread where I have a post waiting for your response. Hope to see you there soon.

[Meriweather]

I have a question that has probably been answered somewhere in this thread--but perhaps someone might give me a summary?

My background is the Catholic understanding of Trinity; I would probably veer more towards oneness than some other representations of Trinity that I have seen discussed here. However, all perspectives become perplexing to me at some point. The perplexity I'm focused on now though is John 8:58:

Jesus said to them, "Amen, amen, I say to you, before Abraham came to be, I AM."

I'm trying to understand this verse from the perspective of oneness.

I quoted myself from about a week ago to see if I have gained any understanding about the Oneness perspective. (Look, I'm now remembering to capitalize Oneness!)

Before, I could only see this verse from the persepctive of Jesus speaking as the second person of the Trinity--because he spoke it during his humanity, referring back to a pre-existence when he was one with God--and the Spirit of God.

Now, I see two other ways of looking at it. Being One with God, was Jesus speaking divinely when he said, I AM--even though obviously he was in human form?

Or, was this more a recognition/knowledge on Jesus' part that he did have two natures, and speaking as a man (not divinely) was merely referring to his second nature when He said, "I AM."?

This leads to my next question: In Oneness theology, did Jesus remain in his human nature at all times while he was on Earth? Or, were there times he "stepped over" (for lack of better words) to his Divine nature?

[Tucson Jim]

Thank you, Mike. But this is the Trinity thread. I am aware of how Jews interpret Ezekiel. The one way they don't interpret him and this particular prophecy is as "false" based on the fact that the rebuilt Temple did not stand forever.

If you want to take this discussion to a new thread, that would be fine. Here in this thread, I would like to resume study of Trinity and Oneness, please.

I agree Meri!

I've been out of town this past week but I can see the thread is still in hijack mode, as it has been for most of the past several weeks.

It's really interesting and all that Jewish people don't believe Jesus is the messiah.

But it's not the topic of this thread.

[Tucson Jim]

I never said you could not post...I just asked very nicely to not derail the thread.

I have also asked others to not respond to those issues which deal with things other then the OP..............they have every right as you do and have told you that you do but find you getting rude and inconsiderate simply because you can.

I can't help but think you are doing it just to be spiteful at this point.

If you would go back and read I believe even you would agree.

Amen Warrior!

[Tucson Jim]

sure...........

You @!#@$^*&$^$&^%&%&%@@!$UG%^*FLIBBERFLOPPIN ^%&*&%^$^%

BUT I LOVE YOU MAN

NO..........YOU @@$%^^&(^%&$@$ $^^^*&(*( frabberzakkin ^&%#@$#%

BUT I LOVE YOU MORE.

NO YOU DON'T YOU @@#%%*)({}}"&&%$^^$^fFIGGURBIKKIN#%$^&&***.................I LOVE YOU MORE.


Seriously what I have learned has been very good for my walk in Christ and have come to see how trinitarians have the view they do and have come to understand that we are really closer in view then I first believed.

Jesus had via God the characteristics of his Father like,fairness,compassion,kindness,and awareness at all times of what was around him and knew by revelation how to deal with any situation.

There is, was and never will be none like him and we owe him honor and the glory he is due.

I can agree with that!

Except I distinctly remember saying "NO YOU DON'T YOU &&^^^$$$$$!"!

[free2B]

I quoted myself from about a week ago to see if I have gained any understanding about the Oneness perspective. (Look, I'm now remembering to capitalize Oneness!)

Before, I could only see this verse from the persepctive of Jesus speaking as the second person of the Trinity--because he spoke it during his humanity, referring back to a pre-existence when he was one with God--and the Spirit of God.

Now, I see two other ways of looking at it. Being One with God, was Jesus speaking divinely when he said, I AM--even though obviously he was in human form?

Or, was this more a recognition/knowledge on Jesus' part that he did have two natures, and speaking as a man (not divinely) was merely referring to his second nature when He said, "I AM."?

This leads to my next question: In Oneness theology, did Jesus remain in his human nature at all times while he was on Earth? Or, were there times he "stepped over" (for lack of better words) to his Divine nature?

my thoughts meri when the Holy Spirit descended upon Jesus, He became Divine, filled with the Spirit of God thus as a man fulfilled the Word of God

St. John,1-18: No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.
29: The next day John(the Baptist) seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.
30: This is he of whom I said, After me cometh a man which is preferred before me: for he was before me.
31: And I knew him not: but that he should be made manifest to Israel, therefore am I come baptizing with water.
32:And John bare record, saying , I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and it abode upon him.
33: And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost.
34: And I saw and bear record that this is the Son of God.

[Subcomandante]

Responding to OP and to the last post:

The Trinity as defined in the Bible is the acceptable version of the Trinity. The human creeds that came afterwords redefining the Trinity or changing the doctrine all together are not profitable.

There are three seperate personages, God the Father, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit...however they are one in purpose, bring about the salvation of man. I see that evidenced in the words of Christ about the matter, as well as the testimonies of the apostles and close associates of Christ.

[Meriweather]

my thoughts meri when the Holy Spirit descended upon Jesus, He became Divine, filled with the Spirit of God thus as a man fulfilled the Word of God

St. John,1-18: No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.
29: The next day John(the Baptist) seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.
30: This is he of whom I said, After me cometh a man which is preferred before me: for he was before me.
31: And I knew him not: but that he should be made manifest to Israel, therefore am I come baptizing with water.
32:And John bare record, saying , I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and it abode upon him.
33: And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost.
34: And I saw and bear record that this is the Son of God.

The problem I see with Jesus not becoming divine until the moment of his baptism is that it suggests conception by the Holy Spirit had little effect. Remember, as young as twelve, Jesus was referring to God as his Father. I see this as at least an indication that he recognized the relationship between himself and the Father before his baptism.

[CMike11]

Thank you, Mike. But this is the Trinity thread. I am aware of how Jews interpret Ezekiel. The one way they don't interpret him and this particular prophecy is as "false" based on the fact that the rebuilt Temple did not stand forever.

If you want to take this discussion to a new thread, that would be fine. Here in this thread, I would like to resume study of Trinity and Oneness, please.

It's not based on how it's "interpreted", it's based on what Ezekiel explicitly states.

What part of "forever" is unclear to you?

He clearly states that the the temple will be rebuilty and stand FOREVER. In fact, it's said twice.

There are also a whole bunch of other prophesies that will occur when the messiah comes, but have not been fulfilled.


And no, the Senator will not yield. :mrgreen:

[Meriweather]

It's not based on how it's "interpreted", it's based on what Ezekiel explicitly states.

What part of "forever" is unclear to you?

He clearly states that the the temple will be rebuilty and stand FOREVER. In fact, it's said twice.

There are also a whole bunch of other prophesies that will occur when the messiah comes, but have not been fulfilled.


And no, the Senator will not yield. :mrgreen:

I'll discuss this, but not in the Trinity thread. I'll look for the thread you start on Ezekiel.

[Reeder]

Filter Bypass Galore!!!! :shifty:

[Koushi Shinigami]

Filter Bypass Galore!!!! :shifty:

:)):)):)):)):)):clap::clap::clap:

[Tucson Jim]

I'll discuss this, but not in the Trinity thread. I'll look for the thread you start on Ezekiel.

:clap::clap::clap:

If everyone would do as you are doing, we could get rid of the hijacker.

Well done!

[Tucson Jim]

Responding to OP and to the last post:

The Trinity as defined in the Bible is the acceptable version of the Trinity. The human creeds that came afterwords redefining the Trinity or changing the doctrine all together are not profitable.

There are three seperate personages, God the Father, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit...however they are one in purpose, bring about the salvation of man. I see that evidenced in the words of Christ about the matter, as well as the testimonies of the apostles and close associates of Christ.

Thanks for your post Subcomandante.

We have seen the view you are advocating in this thread before, primarily from LDS posters, with principal Biblical support from John 17.

The problem as I see it is that the Bible is clear that there is only one God, not, as you seem to be suggesting, 3 Gods who are one in purpose. The verses are numerous and well-known, with Deut 6:4 possibly the best known: " Hear, O Israel! The LORD is our God, the LORD is one!"

The Trinity doctrine ("Trinity"), in accordance with the Bible, maintains there is only one Being Who is God. Trinity further maintains that the Being Who is God is Triune, existing eternally as 3 Persons sharing the nature of God - the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. In this way, the Deity of Christ and the Holy Spirit is affirmed, while maintaining the Biblical teaching that there is only one God.

[Tucson Jim]

Filter Bypass Galore!!!! :shifty:

Nah . . .for that to be true there would have to be an actual cuss word being bypassed. As anyone can see, we never cuss at each other here . . . though some of us may come close at times! :whistle:

[Angryamerican]

Psalm 16 is a prophecy about Jesus

16 Keep me, O God, for I have taken refuge in you.

*2*I have said to Jehovah: “You are Jehovah; my goodness is, not for your sake,
*3*[But] to the holy ones that are in the earth.
They, even the majestic ones, are the ones in whom is all my delight.”

*4*Pains become many to those [who], when there is someone else, do hurry [after him].
I shall not pour out their drink offerings of blood,
And I shall not carry their names upon my lips.

*5*Jehovah is the portion of my allotted share and of my cup.
You are holding fast my lot.

*6*The measuring lines themselves have fallen for me in pleasant places.
Really, [my own] possession has proved agreeable to me.

*7*I shall bless Jehovah, who has given me advice.
Really, during the nights my kidneys have corrected me.

*8*I have placed Jehovah in front of me constantly.
Because [he] is at my right hand, I shall not be made to totter.

*9*Therefore my heart does rejoice, and my glory is inclined to be joyful.
Also, my own flesh will reside in security.

10*For you will not leave my soul in She′ol.
You will not allow your loyal one to see the pit.

11*You will cause me to know the path of life.
Rejoicing to satisfaction is with your face;
There is pleasantness at your right hand forever.

Which again shows Jesus is not Jehovah who alone is the Most High God

in fact you see a difference on how holy one is used when referring to different ones

Drs who is speaking ? Hint David.

[clabro1960]

is there 3 persons of the godhead? what does the bible say a spirit is and does a spirit have a physical body able to eat and drink and breathe or feel with hands?what does the bible say is the description of the Holy Spirit? what does the bible say is the physical description of jesus?

[Angryamerican]

Yes, the distortion labels and 'mine all mine' nonsense must stop. A simple, "I disagree, here is how I (and many others) see it," would suffice. Also, the simple courtesty of taking a different topic to a different thread when the original topic is still ongoing would be gratefully appreciated.

I like your above thought of returning to Trinity discussion. How about starting us out with a summary to date? You can put 14,000+ posts in a sentence or two, can't you? :razz:

Does the trinity involve Christ ? Does the trinity involve the messiah ? Is Jesus the messiah ? Is Jesus the son of God ? Some here said that Isaiah 53 was about the messiah he responded how is that off topic ?

[Angryamerican]

Virtually nothing of Christianity is based on Judaism, if anything at all.

Tell me you are not serious :rolleyes:

[lwdc]

Tell me you are not serious :rolleyes:Totally serious, as are those on this board who practice Judaism and agree 100%.

[Angryamerican]

:clap::clap::clap:

If everyone would do as you are doing, we could get rid of the hijacker.

Well done!

Can't take the heat ? :((

[Angryamerican]

Totally serious, as are those on this board who practice Judaism and agree 100%.

Well in that case that would explain the contradictions i have spoken about between the ot and the nt ;)

Wrong on one hand and right on the other.

[Meriweather]

Does the trinity involve Christ ?

Yes, Trinity involves Christ.

Does the trinity involve the messiah ?

If one believes Jesus Christ is the Messiah, then Trinity involves Jesus Christ as the Messiah. However, Trinity does not involve anyone else that Jews might consider as a future Messiah. An earthly ruler (a human Messiah) has nothing to do with Trinity.

Is Jesus the messiah ?

Christians believe Jesus is the Messiah.

Is Jesus the son of God ?

Christians believe Jesus is the son of God. It is also what Jesus stated about himself.

Some here said that Isaiah 53 was about the messiah he responded how is that off topic ?

In this thread we are speaking of Jesus Christ, the Son of God, whom Christians believe is the Messiah. The discussion centers around whether Trinity Doctrine best describes one God; or, whether Oneness Doctrine best describes one God.

This discussion was sidetracked when someone wished to discuss whether Jesus met the criteria Jews set for a Messiah. Instead of continuing with a discussion of Trinity versus Oneness doctrine, the discussion changed to Who is the true Messiah?

Both topics generate great discussions--but they are two different topics.

[Meriweather]

Can't take the heat ? :((

Heat does not correctly identify the problem.

I like organization--A place for everything and everything in its place.

This is the place for Trinity discussion. We do have another thread that involves discussion on who qualifies as the Messiah--or, a brand new thread could be started if people wish to focus or refocus on a particular scripture or aspect of the Messiah.

[DispensationalJim]

For AngryAmerican:

I got no response from Mike on the verses shown below (which IMO is not only evidence that Jesus is the Messiah, but also God).

So, I would like to repeat it to get AA's opinion. How about it, AA?

=======================





Who is "THE HOLY ONE" in the Bible?

Here is "The Holy One" in the OT:

• Psa. 16:10 For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
• Psa. 89:18 For the LORD is OUR DEFENCE; AND THE HOLY ONE OF ISRAEL IS our king.
• Is. 41:14 Fear not, thou worm Jacob, and ye men of Israel; I will help thee, saith the LORD, and thy redeemer, the Holy One of Israel. ... 20 That they may see, and know, and consider, and understand together, that the hand of the LORD hath done this, and the Holy One of Israel hath created it.
• Is. 49:7 Thus saith the LORD, the Redeemer of Israel, and his Holy One, to him whom man despiseth, to him whom the nation abhorreth, to a servant of rulers, Kings shall see and arise, princes also shall worship, because of the LORD that is faithful, and the Holy One of Israel, and he shall choose thee.
• Is. 55:5 Behold, thou shalt call a nation that thou knowest not, and nations that knew not thee shall run unto thee because of the LORD thy God, and for the Holy One of Israel; for he hath glorified thee.
• Is. 60:9 ... unto the name of the LORD thy God, and to the Holy One of Israel, because he hath glorified thee.
• Hab. 3:3 God came from Teman, and the Holy One from mount Paran. Selah. His glory covered the heavens, and the earth was full of his praise.

==========================

And here is "The Holy One" in the NT:

• Mark 1:24 Saying, Let us alone; what have we to do with thee, thou Jesus of Nazareth? art thou come to destroy us? I know thee who thou art, the Holy One of God.
• Luke 4:34 Saying, Let us alone; what have we to do with thee, thou Jesus of Nazareth? art thou come to destroy us? I know thee who thou art; the Holy One of God.
• Acts 2:27 Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
• Acts 3:14 But ye denied the Holy One and the Just, and desired a murderer to be granted unto you;
• Acts 13:35 Wherefore he saith also in another psalm, Thou shalt not suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

=========================

Please notice, it is THE HOLY ONE.

[Angryamerican]

Heat does not correctly identify the problem.

I like organization--A place for everything and everything in its place.

This is the place for Trinity discussion. We do have another thread that involves discussion on who qualifies as the Messiah--or, a brand new thread could be started if people wish to focus or refocus on a particular scripture or aspect of the Messiah.

Well i don't see a problem with someone presenting a different view as long as they present evidence as to why.

If Jesus is not the messiah he can't be what we are discussing. It kills the idea of the trinity all together.

[Angryamerican]

For AngryAmerican:

I got no response from Mike on the verses shown below (which IMO is not only evidence that Jesus is the Messiah, but also God).

So, I would like to repeat it to get AA's opinion. How about it, AA?

=======================

You did get a response, i just think he didn't quote you.

[Poisonshady313]

And here is "The Holy One" in the NT:

• Mark 1:24 Saying, Let us alone; what have we to do with thee, thou Jesus of Nazareth? art thou come to destroy us? I know thee who thou art, the Holy One of God.
• Luke 4:34 Saying, Let us alone; what have we to do with thee, thou Jesus of Nazareth? art thou come to destroy us? I know thee who thou art; the Holy One of God.
• Acts 2:27 Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
• Acts 3:14 But ye denied the Holy One and the Just, and desired a murderer to be granted unto you;
• Acts 13:35 Wherefore he saith also in another psalm, Thou shalt not suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.


I could write a book, and in it, I can call myself "The Holy One"... this wouldn't make it so... but it would be written, and you could post it online and highlight it with a red font...

[Angryamerican]

For AngryAmerican:

I got no response from Mike on the verses shown below (which IMO is not only evidence that Jesus is the Messiah, but also God).

So, I would like to repeat it to get AA's opinion. How about it, AA?

=======================

Sorry but if you are gonna try to convince me or my jewish friends that Jesus is God i think you better leave the nt out of it ? And show us from the ot.

The Holy of Holies we all know who that is, and it is not the messiah.

[Meriweather]

Well i don't see a problem with someone presenting a different view as long as they present evidence as to why.

If Jesus is not the messiah he can't be what we are discussing. It kills the idea of the trinity all together.

Exactly. But the idea of this thread is not to discuss whether Jesus is the Messiah. That discussion is taking place elsewhere. This thread accepts Jesus as the Messiah, but questions the validity of Trinity over Oneness.

Look at it like this.

1. People who believe Jesus is the Messiah are discussing the validity of Trinity over Oneness.

2. People who don't believe Jesus is the Messiah enter the thread and turn the discussion to debating whether Jesus is the Messiah promised by God.

3. People who don't believe in God enter the thread and turn the discussion to arguing whether or not God exists.

Don't you think the respectful, courteous thing to do is allow the Trinity vs Oneness question to be focused on and discussed in this thread, while the other two points are taken up in additional threads?

[Poisonshady313]

Exactly. But the idea of this thread is not to discuss whether Jesus is the Messiah. That discussion is taking place elsewhere. This thread accepts Jesus as the Messiah, but questions the validity of Trinity over Oneness.

Look at it like this.

1. People who believe Jesus is the Messiah are discussing the validity of Trinity over Oneness.

2. People who don't believe Jesus is the Messiah enter the thread and turn the discussion to debating whether Jesus is the Messiah promised by God.

3. People who don't believe in God enter the thread and turn the discussion to arguing whether or not God exists.

Don't you think the respectful, courteous thing to do is allow the Trinity vs Oneness question to be focused on and discussed in this thread, while the other two points are taken up in additional threads?

What happened to 4. People who don't believe Jesus is the Messiah enter the thread to talk about the fact that there is only one God, not a trinity?

Y'know... the Jewish/Muslim position on the question of the trinity (aside from the fact that Muslims regard Jesus as "messiah")

[Angryamerican]

Exactly. But the idea of this thread is not to discuss whether Jesus is the Messiah. That discussion is taking place elsewhere. This thread accepts Jesus as the Messiah, but questions the validity of Trinity over Oneness.

Look at it like this.

1. People who believe Jesus is the Messiah are discussing the validity of Trinity over Oneness.

2. People who don't believe Jesus is the Messiah enter the thread and turn the discussion to debating whether Jesus is the Messiah promised by God.

3. People who don't believe in God enter the thread and turn the discussion to arguing whether or not God exists.

Don't you think the respectful, courteous thing to do is allow the Trinity vs Oneness question to be focused on and discussed in this thread, while the other two points are taken up in additional threads?

So it is wrong to question whether Jesus is even the messiah in this thread ? I think it is one big ball of twine all wrapped together.

[Meriweather]

What happened to 4. People who don't believe Jesus is the Messiah enter the thread to talk about the fact that there is only one God, not a trinity?

Y'know... the Jewish/Muslim position on the question of the trinity (aside from the fact that Muslims regard Jesus as "messiah")


In this thread doctrine of Jesus as the Messiah is being discussed. One doctrine has to do with the doctrine of Trinity; the other has to do with the doctrine of Oneness. Both doctrines follow Jesus as Messiah.

Therefore, if you are asking me how I would organize the various discussions, I would also start a new thread arguing that One God could never be a Trinity. That leaves the question of Jesus as Messiah open for debate. I believe it would make for an excellent discussion--but one that differs from Oneness doctrine versus the doctrine of Trinity debate.

(Beware! I tend to organize down to the nth degree! ;) )

[DRS]

Drs who is speaking ? Hint David.

When was David raised from the dead?

Jesus was raised from the dead David is now dust awaiting the resurrection, he saw corruption

[Meriweather]

So it is wrong to question whether Jesus is even the messiah in this thread ? I think it is one big ball of twine all wrapped together.

As someone who is just as guilty as the next of veering threads off topic, I hesitate to use the word "wrong." I am not seeing what has happened to this thread in terms of "right" and "wrong."

I am seeing it more as a filing problem--where someone hands me fifteen thousand posts and says, "Organize this."

At one point in this thread I was learning, mainly by simply reading, the discussions taking place between Trinity and Oneness. I was learning people see Trinity in different ways than I was taught--and the Oneness doctrine was confusing me even more--because I couldn't see it all that differently from the Trinity doctrines. Just as I was beginning to get a teensy grasp on these differences, the discussion radically changed. :((

However, I know how this Forum works. At a later time, in a new thread, the topic will come around again, and I'll have the opportunity to gain further understanding. IT WAS JUST THAT I WAS SO CLOSE THIS TIME! Now my mind has gone on to other things, and that is all right, too. As I said, the next time the topic resurfaces, I'll continue with my study of it. Maybe that will be best anyway. Let what I have learned this time around settle a bit so I have somewhat of a foundation to build upon the next time.

Anyway, I now have hijacked this thread into a discussion on when it is best to start new threads. That's even farther away from Trinity versus Oneness that whether Jesus is the Messiah. :razz:

[DRS]

In this thread doctrine of Jesus as the Messiah is being discussed. One doctrine has to do with the doctrine of Trinity; the other has to do with the doctrine of Oneness. Both doctrines follow Jesus as Messiah.



Explain how one can be the anointed one of Almighty God and Almighty God at the same time

[Angryamerican]

Explain how one can be the anointed one of Almighty God and Almighty God at the same time

Did david see corruption ? Was david forgiven for his sins ?

[Angryamerican]

Explain how one can be the anointed one of Almighty God and Almighty God at the same time

You can't, one is the anointed and one does the anointing. and all anointing comes from God, So if Jesus is God he don't have to be anointed.

Something we agree on Drs :clap:

[DispensationalJim]

Sorry but if you are gonna try to convince me or my jewish friends that Jesus is God i think you better leave the nt out of it ? And show us from the ot.

The Holy of Holies we all know who that is, and it is not the messiah.

AA, please read my post again... SLOWLY. Here is the OT part of it:

Here is "THE HOLY ONE" in the OT:

============================

• Psa. 16:10 For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer THINE HOLY ONE to see corruption.
• Psa. 89:18 For the LORD is OUR DEFENCE; AND THE HOLY ONE OF ISRAEL IS our king.
• Is. 41:14 Fear not, thou worm Jacob, and ye men of Israel; I will help thee, saith the LORD, and thy redeemer, the Holy One of Israel. ... 20 That they may see, and know, and consider, and understand together, that the hand of the LORD hath done this, and THE HOLY ONE of Israel hath created it.
• Is. 49:7 Thus saith the LORD, the Redeemer of Israel, and HIS HOLY ONE, to him whom man despiseth, to him whom the nation abhorreth, to a servant of rulers, Kings shall see and arise, princes also shall worship, because of the LORD that is faithful, and THE HOLY ONE of Israel, and he shall choose thee.
• Is. 55:5 Behold, thou shalt call a nation that thou knowest not, and nations that knew not thee shall run unto thee because of the LORD thy God, and for THE HOLY ONE of Israel; for he hath glorified thee.
• Is. 60:9 ... unto the name of the LORD thy God, and to THE HOLY ONE of Israel, because he hath glorified thee.
• Hab. 3:3 God came from Teman, and THE HOLY ONE from mount Paran. Selah. His glory covered the heavens, and the earth was full of his praise.

===============================

And, AA, please notice that there are two persons being discussed in those verses.

So, I ask again, AA, WHO IS THE HOLY ONE????

And, do those verses appear to be speaking of THE HOLY ONE as GOD???

[drmilo]

Exactly. But the idea of this thread is not to discuss whether Jesus is the Messiah. That discussion is taking place elsewhere. This thread accepts Jesus as the Messiah, but questions the validity of Trinity over Oneness.

Look at it like this.

1. People who believe Jesus is the Messiah are discussing the validity of Trinity over Oneness.

2. People who don't believe Jesus is the Messiah enter the thread and turn the discussion to debating whether Jesus is the Messiah promised by God.

3. People who don't believe in God enter the thread and turn the discussion to arguing whether or not God exists.

Don't you think the respectful, courteous thing to do is allow the Trinity vs Oneness question to be focused on and discussed in this thread, while the other two points are taken up in additional threads?

Just to be fair, there are other points of view besides Trinity and Oneness (those who accept Jesus as Messiah, but do not believe he is God -- JW theology, Unitarian, etc)

But your basic point remains -- this thread is about those of us who accept Jesus as Messiah discussing whether or not the doctrine of the trinity is valid. To discuss whether or not Jesus is the Messiah -- and what prophecies the Messiah is supposed to fill -- is a topic for another thread. If your argument is "The trinity is not valid because Jesus isn't God" that's one thing. But to say "the trinity is not valid because Jesus isn't the messiah" is another question, especially if your futher argument is that the messiah is not God. This thread has been focusing on the nature of God, not the requirements of the messiah.

[CMike11]

is there 3 persons of the godhead? what does the bible say a spirit is and does a spirit have a physical body able to eat and drink and breathe or feel with hands?what does the bible say is the description of the Holy Spirit? what does the bible say is the physical description of jesus?

Whose bible?

[DRS]

Did david see corruption ? Was david forgiven for his sins ?

Yes David did see corruption his body decomposed

No David did not recieve absolute forgiveness he died did he not?

[Angryamerican]

AA, please read my post again... SLOWLY. Here is the OT part of it:

Here is "THE HOLY ONE" in the OT:

============================

• Psa. 16:10 For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer THINE HOLY ONE to see corruption.
• Psa. 89:18 For the LORD is OUR DEFENCE; AND THE HOLY ONE OF ISRAEL IS our king.
• Is. 41:14 Fear not, thou worm Jacob, and ye men of Israel; I will help thee, saith the LORD, and thy redeemer, the Holy One of Israel. ... 20 That they may see, and know, and consider, and understand together, that the hand of the LORD hath done this, and THE HOLY ONE of Israel hath created it.
• Is. 49:7 Thus saith the LORD, the Redeemer of Israel, and HIS HOLY ONE, to him whom man despiseth, to him whom the nation abhorreth, to a servant of rulers, Kings shall see and arise, princes also shall worship, because of the LORD that is faithful, and THE HOLY ONE of Israel, and he shall choose thee.
• Is. 55:5 Behold, thou shalt call a nation that thou knowest not, and nations that knew not thee shall run unto thee because of the LORD thy God, and for THE HOLY ONE of Israel; for he hath glorified thee.
• Is. 60:9 ... unto the name of the LORD thy God, and to THE HOLY ONE of Israel, because he hath glorified thee.
• Hab. 3:3 God came from Teman, and THE HOLY ONE from mount Paran. Selah. His glory covered the heavens, and the earth was full of his praise.

===============================

And, AA, please notice that there are two persons being discussed in those verses.

So, I ask again, AA, WHO IS THE HOLY ONE????

And, do those verses appear to be speaking of THE HOLY ONE as GOD???

Who is the holy of holies ?

Num 4:19 But do this to them, and they shall live and not die when they approach the Holy of Holies. Aaron and his sons shall go in and appoint each one of them to his service and to his burden.

Deu 33:8 And of Levi he said, Let Your Thummim and Your Urim be with Your holy one whom You proved at Massah; You strove with him at the Waters of Strife,

Now notice, The messiah is not called the holy one. But the messiah is called the chosen one and the mighty one. But God is called the holy one.

Psa 89:19 Then You spoke in a vision to Your holy one, and You said, I have laid help on a mighty one; I have lifted up a chosen one out of the people.

There is no mistaking of who the Holy one of Israel is.

Psa 89:18 For Jehovah is our shield; yea, our King is the Holy One of Israel.

Isa 30:15 For so says the Lord Jehovah, the Holy One of Israel, In returning and rest you shall be saved; and in quietness and hope shall be your strength. And you were not willing.

Yep God is the Holy one of Israel.

Isa 41:14 Do not fear, worm of Jacob and men of Israel; I will help you, says Jehovah, and your Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel.


Please quit cherry picking verses, READ IT IN CONTEXT. David is calling himself the holy one of God.

Psa 16:1 A Secret Treasure of David. Watch over me, O God; for in You do I put my trust.
Psa 16:2 Oh my soul, you have said to Jehovah, You are my Lord; I have no goodness apart from You.

Continue reading.

[DRS]

• Is. 49:7 Thus saith the LORD, the Redeemer of Israel, and HIS HOLY ONE, to him whom man despiseth, to him whom the nation abhorreth, to a servant of rulers, Kings shall see and arise, princes also shall worship, because of the LORD that is faithful, and THE HOLY ONE of Israel, and he shall choose thee.


Why don't you comment on this or the on the point i have made regarding this

The Holy One and the The Holy One who has a Holy One

[Angryamerican]

Yes David did see corruption his body decomposed

No David did not recieve absolute forgiveness he died did he not?

We all still die ,whats your point ? Before and after Jesus.

[CMike11]

Who is "THE HOLY ONE" in the Bible?

Here is "The Holy One" in the OT:

• Psa. 16:10 For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
• Psa. 89:18 For the LORD is OUR DEFENCE; AND THE HOLY ONE OF ISRAEL IS our king.
• Is. 41:14 Fear not, thou worm Jacob, and ye men of Israel; I will help thee, saith the LORD, and thy redeemer, the Holy One of Israel. ... 20 That they may see, and know, and consider, and understand together, that the hand of the LORD hath done this, and the Holy One of Israel hath created it.
• Is. 49:7 Thus saith the LORD, the Redeemer of Israel, and his Holy One, to him whom man despiseth, to him whom the nation abhorreth, to a servant of rulers, Kings shall see and arise, princes also shall worship, because of the LORD that is faithful, and the Holy One of Israel, and he shall choose thee.
• Is. 55:5 Behold, thou shalt call a nation that thou knowest not, and nations that knew not thee shall run unto thee because of the LORD thy God, and for the Holy One of Israel; for he hath glorified thee.
• Is. 60:9 ... unto the name of the LORD thy God, and to the Holy One of Israel, because he hath glorified thee.
• Hab. 3:3 God came from Teman, and the Holy One from mount Paran. Selah. His glory covered the heavens, and the earth was full of his praise.


This is Psalms 16:10

10. For You shall not forsake my soul to the grave; You shall not allow Your pious one to see the pit.

I don't know what you mean?

89:18

18. For You are the glory of their might, and with Your favor our horns will be raised.

It's speaking about G-D, I still am unclear about your question.

Isaiah 41

14. Fear not, O worm of Jacob, the number of Israel; "I have helped you," says the Lord, and your redeemer, the Holy One of Israel.

It's still talking about G-D

I'll get back to you with the rest.

[Angryamerican]

AA, please read my post again... SLOWLY. Here is the OT part of it:

Here is "THE HOLY ONE" in the OT:

============================

• Psa. 16:10 For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer THINE HOLY ONE to see corruption.
• Psa. 89:18 For the LORD is OUR DEFENCE; AND THE HOLY ONE OF ISRAEL IS our king.
• Is. 41:14 Fear not, thou worm Jacob, and ye men of Israel; I will help thee, saith the LORD, and thy redeemer, the Holy One of Israel. ... 20 That they may see, and know, and consider, and understand together, that the hand of the LORD hath done this, and THE HOLY ONE of Israel hath created it.
• Is. 49:7 Thus saith the LORD, the Redeemer of Israel, and HIS HOLY ONE, to him whom man despiseth, to him whom the nation abhorreth, to a servant of rulers, Kings shall see and arise, princes also shall worship, because of the LORD that is faithful, and THE HOLY ONE of Israel, and he shall choose thee.
• Is. 55:5 Behold, thou shalt call a nation that thou knowest not, and nations that knew not thee shall run unto thee because of the LORD thy God, and for THE HOLY ONE of Israel; for he hath glorified thee.
• Is. 60:9 ... unto the name of the LORD thy God, and to THE HOLY ONE of Israel, because he hath glorified thee.
• Hab. 3:3 God came from Teman, and THE HOLY ONE from mount Paran. Selah. His glory covered the heavens, and the earth was full of his praise.

===============================

And, AA, please notice that there are two persons being discussed in those verses.

So, I ask again, AA, WHO IS THE HOLY ONE????

And, do those verses appear to be speaking of THE HOLY ONE as GOD???

For you DispensationalJim and Drs. Lets all read this together.

Psa 16:1 A Secret Treasure of David .Watch over me, O God; for in You do I put my trust.
Psa 16:2 Oh my soul, you have said to Jehovah, You are my Lord; I have no goodness apart from You.
Psa 16:3 As to the saints in the earth, they are the excellent, in whom is all my delight.
Psa 16:4 Their sorrows shall be multiplied who run after another god. I will not pour out their drink offerings of blood; and I will not take their names on my lips.
Psa 16:5 Jehovah is the portion of my inheritance, and of my cup; You shall uphold my lot.
Psa 16:6 The lines have fallen to me in pleasant places; yea, I have a beautiful inheritance.
Psa 16:7 I will bless Jehovah, who has given me wisdom; my heart also instructs me in the nights.
Psa 16:8 I have set Jehovah always before Me; because He is at My right hand, I shall not be moved.
Psa 16:9 Therefore My heart is glad, and My glory rejoices; My flesh also shall rest in hope;
Psa 16:10 For You will not leave My soul in hell; You will not allow Your Holy One to see corruption.
Psa 16:11 You will make Me know the way of life; in Your presence is fullness of joys. At Your right hand are pleasures forevermore.

It is David speaking about himself.

[DRS]

We all still die ,whats your point ? Before and after Jesus.

Because the effects from it have not been put into effect yet for everyone

[DispensationalJim]

For AA and Mike, I have highlighted another word in these verses: The word AND.

Here again for your consideration is "THE HOLY ONE" in the OT:

============================

• Psa. 16:10 For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer THINE HOLY ONE to see corruption.
• Psa. 89:18 For the LORD is OUR DEFENCE; AND THE HOLY ONE OF ISRAEL IS our king.
• Is. 41:14 Fear not, thou worm Jacob, and ye men of Israel; I will help thee, saith the LORD, AND thy redeemer, THE HOLY ONE of Israel. ... 20 That they may see, and know, and consider, and understand together, that the hand of the LORD hath done this, AND THE HOLY ONE of Israel hath created it.
• Is. 49:7 Thus saith the LORD, the Redeemer of Israel, AND HIS HOLY ONE, to him whom man despiseth, to him whom the nation abhorreth, to a servant of rulers, Kings shall see and arise, princes also shall worship, because of the LORD that is faithful, AND THE HOLY ONE of Israel, and he shall choose thee.
• Is. 55:5 Behold, thou shalt call a nation that thou knowest not, and nations that knew not thee shall run unto thee because of the LORD thy God, AND for THE HOLY ONE of Israel; for he hath glorified thee.
• Is. 60:9 ... unto the name of the LORD thy God, AND to THE HOLY ONE of Israel, because he hath glorified thee.
• Hab. 3:3 God came from Teman, AND THE HOLY ONE from mount Paran. Selah. His glory covered the heavens, and the earth was full of his praise.

===============================

So now, AA, because of the AND, I hope you can see that there are two persons being discussed in those verses.

So, I ask again, AA, WHO IS THE HOLY ONE????

And, as you showed in your chosen verses earlier, those verses also are speaking of THE HOLY ONE as GOD!!!

For instance:
• Is. 10:20 ... but shall stay upon the LORD, the Holy One of Israel, in truth.
• Is. 30:15 For thus saith the Lord GOD, the Holy One of Israel;
• Is. 48:17 Thus saith the LORD, thy Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel; I am the LORD thy God which teacheth thee to profit, which leadeth thee by the way that thou shouldest go.

===========================

Do you see what I'm saying? There are verses that clearly state that THE HOLY ONE IS GOD and verses that speak of GOD AND THE HOLY ONE in the same verse!

Therefore, I see THE TRINITY THERE!! Can't you?

[Reeder]

A couple of questions for you, AA, regarding how you might interpret the following verses:

Psa 16:8 I have set Jehovah always before Me; because He is at My right hand, I shall not be moved.


Here David is saying that Jehovah is "at My (David's) right hand."

But here:


Psa 16:11 You will make Me know the way of life; in Your presence is fullness of joys. At Your right hand are pleasures forevermore.

...."Pleasures" are at Jehovah's right hand 'forevermore.'

Any idea why David would place Jehovah at his right hand, and then place 'pleasures' at Jehovah's? What does that mean to you?

Next:


Psa 16:10 For You will not leave My soul in hell; You will not allow Your Holy One to see corruption.

If David is the 'Holy One,' what is he talking about here? I can understand that God wouldn't "leave" his soul in hell (meaning it must have, at some point, been in hell), but what does he mean by "not being allowed to see corruption?" Has David not seen corruption? Will he never see it again?

Thanks.

[Angryamerican]

Because the effects from it have not been put into effect yet for everyone

Can you name anyone it has been put into effect for ?

[Angryamerican]

For AA and Mike, I have highlighted another word in these verses: The word AND.

Here again for your consideration is "THE HOLY ONE" in the OT:

============================

• Psa. 16:10 For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer THINE HOLY ONE to see corruption.
• Psa. 89:18 For the LORD is OUR DEFENCE; AND THE HOLY ONE OF ISRAEL IS our king.
• Is. 41:14 Fear not, thou worm Jacob, and ye men of Israel; I will help thee, saith the LORD, AND thy redeemer, THE HOLY ONE of Israel. ... 20 That they may see, and know, and consider, and understand together, that the hand of the LORD hath done this, AND THE HOLY ONE of Israel hath created it.
• Is. 49:7 Thus saith the LORD, the Redeemer of Israel, AND HIS HOLY ONE, to him whom man despiseth, to him whom the nation abhorreth, to a servant of rulers, Kings shall see and arise, princes also shall worship, because of the LORD that is faithful, AND THE HOLY ONE of Israel, and he shall choose thee.
• Is. 55:5 Behold, thou shalt call a nation that thou knowest not, and nations that knew not thee shall run unto thee because of the LORD thy God, AND for THE HOLY ONE of Israel; for he hath glorified thee.
• Is. 60:9 ... unto the name of the LORD thy God, AND to THE HOLY ONE of Israel, because he hath glorified thee.
• Hab. 3:3 God came from Teman, AND THE HOLY ONE from mount Paran. Selah. His glory covered the heavens, and the earth was full of his praise.

===============================

So now, AA, because of the AND, I hope you can see that there are two persons being discussed in those verses.

So, I ask again, AA, WHO IS THE HOLY ONE????

And, as you showed in your chosen verses earlier, those verses also are speaking of THE HOLY ONE as GOD!!!

For instance:
• Is. 10:20 ... but shall stay upon the LORD, the Holy One of Israel, in truth.
• Is. 30:15 For thus saith the Lord GOD, the Holy One of Israel;
• Is. 48:17 Thus saith the LORD, thy Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel; I am the LORD thy God which teacheth thee to profit, which leadeth thee by the way that thou shouldest go.

===========================

Do you see what I'm saying? There are verses that clearly state that THE HOLY ONE IS GOD and verses that speak of GOD AND THE HOLY ONE in the same verse!

Therefore, I see THE TRINITY THERE!! Can't you?

The word "and"does not change the meaning of the verse.

[CMike11]

Is. 49:7 Thus saith the LORD, the Redeemer of Israel, and his Holy One, to him whom man despiseth, to him whom the nation abhorreth, to a servant of rulers, Kings shall see and arise, princes also shall worship, because of the LORD that is faithful, and the Holy One of Israel, and he shall choose thee.
• Is. 55:5 Behold, thou shalt call a nation that thou knowest not, and nations that knew not thee shall run unto thee because of the LORD thy God, and for the Holy One of Israel; for he hath glorified thee.
• Is. 60:9 ... unto the name of the LORD thy God, and to the Holy One of Israel, because he hath glorified thee.
• Hab. 3:3 God came from Teman, and the Holy One from mount Paran. Selah. His glory covered the heavens, and the earth was full of his praise.

Isaiah 49:4

7. So said the Lord, the Redeemer of Israel, his Holy One, about him who is despised of men, about him whom the nation abhors, about a slave of rulers, "Kings shall see and rise, princes, and they shall prostrate themselves, for the sake of the Lord Who is faithful, the Holy One of Israel, and He chose you."

The person Isaiah is talking about is Israel.

here is rashi's commentary

about him who is despised of men Heb. לִבְזֹה נֶפֶשׁ, a despised soul, about Israel, who are despised.

about him whom the nation abhors About him whom the nation abhors, and he is a slave to those who rule over him.
Kings shall see him and rise.

Who is faithful to keep His promise that He promised Abraham concerning the kingdoms, as the matter is stated (Gen. 15: 17): “And behold a smoking stove, etc.”
the Holy One of Israel is He, and He chose you.

Isaiah 55

5. Behold, a nation you do not know you shall call, and a nation that did not know you shall run to you, for the sake of the Lord your God and for the Holy One of Israel, for He glorified you.

It's talking about G-D. The "Lord your G-D, and for the Holy One of Israel". It's the same person, G-D.

60:9. For the isles will hope for Me, and the ships of Tarshish [as] in the beginning, to bring your sons from afar, their silver and their gold with them, in the name of the Lord your God and for the Holy One of Israel, for He has glorified you.

Same G-D.

The Lord your G-D is the same as the Holy One.

What is Hab?

[CMike11]

I mentioned this before, prophets are written by the individual prophet, in a poetic and flowerly manner.

That is why they are so vulnerable to these distortions.

[Angryamerican]

A couple of questions for you, AA, regarding how you might interpret the following verses:




Here David is saying that Jehovah is "at My (David's) right hand."

But here:



...."Pleasures" are at Jehovah's right hand 'forevermore.'

Any idea why David would place Jehovah at his right hand, and then place 'pleasures' at Jehovah's? What does that mean to you?

Next:



If David is the 'Holy One,' what is he talking about here? I can understand that God wouldn't "leave" his soul in hell (meaning it must have, at some point, been in hell), but what does he mean by "not being allowed to see corruption?" Has David not seen corruption? Will he never see it again?

Thanks.

I Guess if we keep God at our right hand we can overcome anything. And we will know great JOY by him leading our lives.

When we are all resurrected from the grave there will be no more corruption.

I take hell to mean the grave not a place of torment.

[CMike11]

A couple of questions for you, AA, regarding how you might interpret the following verses

Here David is saying that Jehovah is "at My (David's) right hand."

But here:
...."Pleasures" are at Jehovah's right hand 'forevermore.'

Any idea why David would place Jehovah at his right hand, and then place 'pleasures' at Jehovah's? What does that mean to you?


http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/16237/jewish/Chapter-16.htm

8. I have placed the Lord before me constantly; because [He is] at my right hand, I will not falter.

Rashi commentary below.

I have placed the Lord before me constantly In all my deeds, I have placed His fear before my eyes. Why? Because He is always at my right hand to help me so that I should not falter. Another explanation: I have placed the Lord before me constantly. [This alludes to] the sefer Torah [that] was with him [for him] to read all the days of his life [as in Deut. 17:19]. This is what he states: “from my right hand I will not falter,” meaning that because of the Torah in which I am engaged, which was given with His right hand, I will not falter. (This interpretation does not appear in any manuscript. It does, however, appear in several early printed editions.) Rashi to Sanhedrin explains that the “right hand” alludes to the Torah scroll that the king would carry suspended from his arm. David is confident that in the merit of that scroll, he will not falter.


11. You shall let me know the way of life, the fullness of joys in Your presence. There is pleasantness in Your right hand forever.

Rashi below
You shall let me know the way of life This is the future tense, not an expression of prayer.
the fullness of joys Endless joy. That is the joy of the future. (Found only in certain manuscripts.)
in Your presence Joys that are before You, in a company that is near You



If David is the 'Holy One,' what is he talking about here? I can understand that God wouldn't "leave" his soul in hell (meaning it must have, at some point, been in hell), but what does he mean by "not being allowed to see corruption?" Has David not seen corruption? Will he never see it again?

Thanks.

It's tied in to the preceeding passages that say that these things will occur because David put the Lord in front of him constantly. That if he does these things basically G-D will protect David.

7. I will bless the Lord, Who counseled me; even at night my conscience instructs me.
8. I have placed the Lord before me constantly; because [He is] at my right hand, I will not falter.
9. Therefore, my heart rejoiced, and my soul was glad; even my flesh shall dwell in safety.
10. For You shall not forsake my soul to the grave; You shall not allow Your pious one to see the pit.

[Angryamerican]

A couple of questions for you, AA, regarding how you might interpret the following verses:




Here David is saying that Jehovah is "at My (David's) right hand."

But here:



...."Pleasures" are at Jehovah's right hand 'forevermore.'

Any idea why David would place Jehovah at his right hand, and then place 'pleasures' at Jehovah's? What does that mean to you?

Next:



If David is the 'Holy One,' what is he talking about here? I can understand that God wouldn't "leave" his soul in hell (meaning it must have, at some point, been in hell), but what does he mean by "not being allowed to see corruption?" Has David not seen corruption? Will he never see it again?

Thanks.

I would also add that corruption could mean complete destruction. That he would never return from the grave.

[DispensationalJim]

Is. 49:7 Thus saith the LORD, the Redeemer of Israel, and his Holy One, to him whom man despiseth, to him whom the nation abhorreth, to a servant of rulers, Kings shall see and arise, princes also shall worship, because of the LORD that is faithful, and the Holy One of Israel, and he shall choose thee.
• Is. 55:5 Behold, thou shalt call a nation that thou knowest not, and nations that knew not thee shall run unto thee because of the LORD thy God, and for the Holy One of Israel; for he hath glorified thee.
• Is. 60:9 ... unto the name of the LORD thy God, and to the Holy One of Israel, because he hath glorified thee.
• Hab. 3:3 God came from Teman, and the Holy One from mount Paran. Selah. His glory covered the heavens, and the earth was full of his praise.

Isaiah 49:4

7. So said the Lord, the Redeemer of Israel, his Holy One, about him who is despised of men, about him whom the nation abhors, about a slave of rulers, "Kings shall see and rise, princes, and they shall prostrate themselves, for the sake of the Lord Who is faithful, the Holy One of Israel, and He chose you."

The person Isaiah is talking about is Israel.

.......

The Lord your G-D is the same as the Holy One.

What is Hab?

Let me see if I have this right, Mike.

THE HOLY ONE is Israel, and yet THE HOLY ONE is God?

So, Israel is God or is God Israel?

And, I give up... what is Hab?

[Angryamerican]

Let me see if I have this right, Mike.

THE HOLY ONE is Israel, and yet THE HOLY ONE is God?

So, Israel is God or is God Israel?

And, I give up... what is Hab?

God is the Holy one of Israel.

David is a Holy one of God.

[DRS]

Can you name anyone it has been put into effect for ?

When Jesus started ruling his prescence began and those who were dead in union with him were raised

[DRS]

God is the Holy one of Israel.

David is a Holy one of God.

Isaiah would not be referring to David

[Tucson Jim]

Does the trinity involve Christ ? Does the trinity involve the messiah ? Is Jesus the messiah ? Is Jesus the son of God ? Some here said that Isaiah 53 was about the messiah he responded how is that off topic ?

Yes, and both are about "religion" too, right AA?

Come on, he has purposely hijacked the thread and knows it and seems to be proud of it.

[Tucson Jim]

Can't take the heat ? :((

Sure I can.

But he's in the wrong kitchen.

[Tucson Jim]

Yes, Trinity involves Christ.



If one believes Jesus Christ is the Messiah, then Trinity involves Jesus Christ as the Messiah. However, Trinity does not involve anyone else that Jews might consider as a future Messiah. An earthly ruler (a human Messiah) has nothing to do with Trinity.



Christians believe Jesus is the Messiah.



Christians believe Jesus is the son of God. It is also what Jesus stated about himself.



In this thread we are speaking of Jesus Christ, the Son of God, whom Christians believe is the Messiah. The discussion centers around whether Trinity Doctrine best describes one God; or, whether Oneness Doctrine best describes one God.

This discussion was sidetracked when someone wished to discuss whether Jesus met the criteria Jews set for a Messiah. Instead of continuing with a discussion of Trinity versus Oneness doctrine, the discussion changed to Who is the true Messiah?

Both topics generate great discussions--but they are two different topics.

Amen Meri!! You have great patience.

[Tucson Jim]

Well i don't see a problem with someone presenting a different view as long as they present evidence as to why.

If Jesus is not the messiah he can't be what we are discussing. It kills the idea of the trinity all together.

Not at all. Two entirely different topics.

[Tucson Jim]

I could write a book, and in it, I can call myself "The Holy One"... this wouldn't make it so... but it would be written, and you could post it online and highlight it with a red font...

Yeah, but come on, no one is going to read the "Poisonshady Testament" now are they?

And I doubt if you did it, that one could find a copy 10 years from now.

The NT has been around for thousands of years.

Yes, I know . . .

[DispensationalJim]

God is the Holy one of Israel.

David is a Holy one of God.

First, AA, IMO the word "AND" makes a BIG difference.

Second, could you AND Mike get your heads together, please? Mike said that THE HOLY ONE was Israel, didn't he? Now, you say that David is "A" Holy One, but I keep seeing "THE" Holy One in those verses.

And I keep saying I'm not wondering who is "A" Holy One.

I want to find out if you can acknowledge there are TWO persons in the verses I quoted who are BOTH known as THE HOLY ONE.

I hope you guys can come to some sort of agreement on this. I already know who THE HOLY ONE IS, thank you.

THE HOLY ONE IS GOD THE SON!!!
(Hey, that ryhmes! I guess I'm a poet and don't know it. I can make a rhyme any old time.)

Come on, guys, yuk it up a little!!

[CMike11]

Let me see if I have this right, Mike.

THE HOLY ONE is Israel, and yet THE HOLY ONE is God?

So, Israel is God or is God Israel?

And, I give up... what is Hab?

Okay, let us examine it again

Isaiah 49:4

7. So said the Lord(God), the Redeemer of Israel (God), his Holy One (God), about him(Israel) who is despised of men, about him whom the nation abhors (Israel), about a slave of rulers, "Kings shall see and rise, princes, and they shall prostrate themselves(Israel), for the sake of the Lord (God)Who is faithful, the Holy One of Israel (God), and He chose you(Israel)."


There are many things that decribe him.

He is

He Lord
Redeemer Of Israel
His Holy One

The "about" is then talking about Israel

[CMike11]

First, AA, IMO the word "AND" makes a BIG difference.

Second, could you AND Mike get your heads together, please? Mike said that THE HOLY ONE was Israel, didn't he?

No he didn't. Maybe you should follow rather than saying someone else should get their head together.

The holy one is G-D.

Okay please follow.

Isaiah is a jewish prophets. He wrote prophesies that involve the relationship between God and Israel. They were both very connected.

[CMike11]

Yes, and both are about "religion" too, right AA?

Come on, he has purposely hijacked the thread and knows it and seems to be proud of it.

blah blah blah

[CMike11]

THE HOLY ONE IS GOD THE SON!!!
(Hey, that ryhmes! I guess I'm a poet and don't know it. I can make a rhyme any old time.)

Come on, guys, yuk it up a little!!

There is no son of god in judaism. None in jewish scripture. It doesn't exist.

There is only one divine being in Judaism. That is G-d. That's it.

[Angryamerican]

Isaiah would not be referring to David

I posted the whole psalm 16 and it is clearly david speaking.

[CMike11]

Okay, let us examine it again

Isaiah 49:4

7. So said the Lord(God), the Redeemer of Israel (God), his Holy One (God), about him(Israel) who is despised of men, about him whom the nation abhors (Israel), about a slave of rulers, "Kings shall see and rise, princes, and they shall prostrate themselves(Israel), for the sake of the Lord (God)Who is faithful, the Holy One of Israel (God), and He chose you(Israel)."


There are many things that decribe him.

He is

He Lord
Redeemer Of Israel
His Holy One

The "about" is then talking about Israel

Just to give an example, it's kind of like the poet saying.

Thus says the 1st president of the US, the general who kicked the british out of the colonies, the man who had an apple fall on his head, about those who will become the greatest country in the world.

George Washington is described in multiple ways.

G-D is described in multiple ways.

[CMike11]

Yes David did see corruption his body decomposed

No David did not recieve absolute forgiveness he died did he not?

Everyone dies.

[Angryamerican]

Yes, and both are about "religion" too, right AA?

Come on, he has purposely hijacked the thread and knows it and seems to be proud of it.

Oh come on JIM, If Jesus is not who you and some others here say he is, the trinity is bogus. And it just strengthens the teachings of Judiasm and the ot.

No offense just my opinion.

[Angryamerican]

First, AA, IMO the word "AND" makes a BIG difference.

Second, could you AND Mike get your heads together, please? Mike said that THE HOLY ONE was Israel, didn't he? Now, you say that David is "A" Holy One, but I keep seeing "THE" Holy One in those verses.

And I keep saying I'm not wondering who is "A" Holy One.

I want to find out if you can acknowledge there are TWO persons in the verses I quoted who are BOTH known as THE HOLY ONE.

I hope you guys can come to some sort of agreement on this. I already know who THE HOLY ONE IS, thank you.

THE HOLY ONE IS GOD THE SON!!!
(Hey, that ryhmes! I guess I'm a poet and don't know it. I can make a rhyme any old time.)

Come on, guys, yuk it up a little!!

Only because you want it to, in my opinion of course.

[Angryamerican]

There is no son of god in judaism. None in jewish scripture. It doesn't exist.

There is only one divine being in Judaism. That is G-d. That's it.

Mike right on target :clap::clap::clap:

[Angryamerican]

Just to give an example, it's kind of like the poet saying.

Thus says the 1st president of the US, the general who kicked the british out of the colonies, the man who had an apple fall on his head, about those who will become the greatest country in the world.

George Washington is described in multiple ways.

G-D is described in multiple ways.

It's funny they know this but they only apply it when speaking about Jesus and God.

Like the word, the messiah, the only begotten, the first born, the holy one of God. Yep those are descriptions of Jesus.

[CMike11]

Mike right on target :clap::clap::clap:

Thank you AA ;)

[CMike11]

It's funny they know this but they only apply it when speaking about Jesus and God.

Like the word, the messiah, the only begotten, the first born, the holy one of God. Yep those are descriptions of Jesus.

I don't think the jewish prophets wrote their works trying to guard it from people of another religion, seeking hard to distort the intent of the actual scripture so it validates their god.

[Angryamerican]

Isaiah would not be referring to David

Drs it is about david.

Psa 16:1

(ASV) Michtam of David. Preserve me, O God; for in thee do I take refuge.

(JPS) Michtam of David. Keep me, O God; for I have taken refuge in Thee.

(KJV+) MichtamH4387 of David.H1732 PreserveH8104 me, O God:H410 forH3588 in thee do I put my trust.H2620

(MKJV) A Secret Treasure of David. Watch over me, O God; for in You do I put my trust.

(RV) <Michtam of David.> Preserve me, O God: for in thee do I put my trust.

Now just read the rest of the chapter.

[Warrior4God]

Just popped in to see if people are still responding to the derailment and they are.

check back later.

[DRS]

Drs it is about david.

Psa 16:1

(ASV) Michtam of David. Preserve me, O God; for in thee do I take refuge.

(JPS) Michtam of David. Keep me, O God; for I have taken refuge in Thee.

(KJV+) MichtamH4387 of David.H1732 PreserveH8104 me, O God:H410 forH3588 in thee do I put my trust.H2620

(MKJV) A Secret Treasure of David. Watch over me, O God; for in You do I put my trust.

(RV) <Michtam of David.> Preserve me, O God: for in thee do I put my trust.

Now just read the rest of the chapter.

That is pslam written by David I was addressing the passage in Isaiah

[Angryamerican]

Just popped in to see if people are still responding to the derailment and they are.

check back later.

The derailment of truth :question:

[Angryamerican]

That is pslam written by David I was addressing the passage in Isaiah

Well you quoted psalm 16.

[DRS]

There is no son of god in judaism. None in jewish scripture. It doesn't exist.

There is only one divine being in Judaism. That is G-d. That's it.

Job 1:6*Now it came to be the day when the sons of the [true] God entered to take their station before Jehovah, and even Satan proceeded to enter right among them.

Genesis 6:2*then the sons of the [true] God began to notice the daughters of men, that they were good-looking; and they went taking wives for themselves, namely, all whom they chose

Psalm 8:5*You also proceeded to make him a little less than godlike ones,
And with glory and splendor you then crowned him

[DRS]

Well you quoted psalm 16.

I thought I edited to isaiah oh well, and just because something is written by David does not mean it refers to David

For instance David wrote the 110 Psalm yest he was never a high priest

[CMike11]

Job 1:6*Now it came to be the day when the sons of the [true] God entered to take their station before Jehovah, and even Satan proceeded to enter right among them.


The correct translation

6. Now the day came about, and the angels of God came to stand beside the Lord, and the Adversary, too, came among them




Genesis 6:2*then the sons of the [true] God began to notice the daughters of men, that they were good-looking; and they went taking wives for themselves, namely, all whom they chose


Correct Translation

2. That the sons of the nobles saw the daughters of man when they were beautifying themselves, and they took for themselves wives from whomever they chose.


Psalm 8:5*You also proceeded to make him a little less than godlike ones,
And with glory and splendor you then crowned him

Correct translation

5. what is man that You should remember him, and the son of man that You should be mindful of him?


To get correct translations

http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/63255/jewish/The-Bible-with-Rashi.htm

[DRS]

The correct translation

6. Now the day came about, and the angels of God came to stand beside the Lord, and the Adversary, too, came among them







Correct Translation

2. That the sons of the nobles saw the daughters of man when they were beautifying themselves, and they took for themselves wives from whomever they chose.




Correct translation

5. what is man that You should remember him, and the son of man that You should be mindful of him?


To get correct translations

http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/63255/jewish/The-Bible-with-Rashi.htm

Actual wording

sons of the elohim is used both in Genesis and Job

little from elohim psalm 8:5

The fact that is hebrew the wording for Pslams and Job is identical just proves the translation you use is bias and slanted to Jewish thought not what is said

[CMike11]

Actual wording

sons of the elohim is used both in Genesis and Job

little from elohim psalm 8:5

The fact that is hebrew the wording for Pslams and Job is identical just proves the translation you use is bias and slanted to Jewish thought not what is said

We have gone through this numerous times.

The words in hebrew need to be translated based on the context.

Just like "President" can mean of the country, company, or association.

The word president changes meaning based on the context.

When you are translating from Hebrew, the translation is partially based on the context.

[Reeder]

I hate to say it, but even the greatest translators in the world are relying upon documents which are NOT the originals (far from it, actually). If only we could know for certain what was penned by the original authors, and/or especially those who first received the divine revelation.

[Angryamerican]

I thought I edited to isaiah oh well, and just because something is written by David does not mean it refers to David

For instance David wrote the 110 Psalm yest he was never a high priest

I understand.

[God is My Rock]

Correct Translation

2. That the sons of the nobles saw the daughters of man when they were beautifying themselves, and they took for themselves wives from whomever they chose.



Out of curiousity, how do you interpret the word Nephilim?

[DRS]

We have gone through this numerous times.

The words in hebrew need to be translated based on the context.

Just like "President" can mean of the country, company, or association.

The word president changes meaning based on the context.

When you are translating from Hebrew, the translation is partially based on the context.

It is the exact same wording but because jewish thought wants to say that angels do not have free will and could not do this they want it to be nobles, but the fact is it was angels

They do have free will and they commited gross sin

[Reeder]

'Angels' are human.

[CMike11]

Out of curiousity, how do you interpret the word Nephilim?

It depends on the context.

[CMike11]

Context, Context, Context

[CMike11]

Actual wording

sons of the elohim is used both in Genesis and Job

little from elohim psalm 8:5

The fact that is hebrew the wording for Pslams and Job is identical just proves the translation you use is bias and slanted to Jewish thought not what is said

Yes, it's biased based on the intention of the author.

Context, Context, Context

[God is My Rock]

It depends on the context.

Gen 6:4

[CMike11]

Gen 6:4

Naphal means fell in hebrew.

http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/8171/showrashi/true/jewish/Chapter-6.htm

4. The Nephilim were on the earth in those days, and also afterward, when the sons of the nobles would come to the daughters of man, and they would bear for them; they are the mighty men, who were of old, the men of renown

Rashi below
The Nephilim [They were called נְפִילִים because they fell (נָפְלוּ) and caused the world to fall (הִפִּילוּ) (Gen. Rabbah 26:7), and in the Hebrew language it means giants (Pirkei d’Rabbi Eliezer , ch.22). and Targum Jonathan.

[CMike11]

It is the exact same wording but because jewish thought wants to say that angels do not have free will and could not do this they want it to be nobles, but the fact is it was angels

They do have free will and they commited gross sin

Angels don't committ sin. They also don't take wives.

They are messengers from God.

This is the context.

http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/8171/jewish/Chapter-6.htm


Genesis - Chapter 6 (Parshah Berei**** and Noach)

1. And it came to pass when man commenced to multiply upon the face of the earth, and daughters were born to them.

2. That the sons of the nobles saw the daughters of man when they were beautifying themselves, and they took for themselves wives from whomever they chose.

3. And the Lord said, "Let My spirit not quarrel forever concerning man, because he is also flesh, and his days shall be a hundred and twenty years."

4. The Nephilim were on the earth in those days, and also afterward, when the sons of the nobles would come to the daughters of man, and they would bear for them; they are the mighty men, who were of old, the men of renown.

5. And the Lord saw that the evil of man was great in the earth, and every imagination of his heart was only evil all the time

Below is Rashi on sons of nobles

the sons of the nobles Heb. בָּנֵי הָאֱלֹהִים, the sons of the princes (Targumim) and the judges (Gen. Rabbah 26:5). Another explanation: בָּנֵי הָאֱלֹהִים are the princes who go as messengers of the Omnipresent. They too mingled with them (Pirkei d’Rabbi Eliezer, ch. 22). Every אֱלֹהִים in Scripture is an expression of authority, and the following proves it (Exod. 4:16):“And you shall be to him as a lord (לֵאלֹהִים)” ; (ibid. 7:1):“See, I have made you a lord (אֶלֹהִים).”

[CMike11]

It is the exact same wording but because jewish thought wants to say that angels do not have free will and could not do this they want it to be nobles, but the fact is it was angels

They do have free will and they commited gross sin

Here is what angels are all about
http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/692875/jewish/What-Are-Angels.htm


What Are Angels?

By Baruch S. Davidson



The Jewish belief in angels goes as far back as the Book of Genesis, where we read about angels calling out to Abraham at the binding of Isaac, angels appearing in Jacob's dream, Jacob fighting with an angel, and many more accounts of angelic activity.1 Angels are then mentioned numerous times throughout the other books of the Torah, Prophets, and Scriptures.

According to Jewish tradition, an angel is a spiritual being and does not have any physical characteristics. The angelic descriptions provided by the prophets – such as wings, arms etc. – are anthropomorphic, referring to their spiritual abilities and tasks.


Angel Names

The first angels mentioned by name in the Bible are Gavriel (Gabriel) and Michael, in the Book of Daniel.2 In earlier books of the Torah, when people asked angels to disclose their names, they refused; such as in the abovementioned encounter of Jacob with the angel,3 and the story of the angel who appeared to Samson's parents in the Book of Judges.4 The Jerusalem Talmud comments5 that reference to angels by name only became common in the period following the return of the Jewish people to Israel in 348 BCE. In the Talmud and Kabbala many more angels are identified by name. Some other commonly known names of angels include Uriel, Reziel, Metatron, and Laila.6

Maimonides explains7 that all angels fall under one of ten ranks. Namely: Chayot Hakodesh, Ophanim, Erelim, Chashmalim, Seraphim, Malachim, Elokim, Bene Elokim, Cheruvim, and Ishim. These ranks refer to the degree of the angel's comprehension of G‑d; some have a greater understanding of G‑d and His ways than others.

Angel Functions

The Hebrew word for angel is "malach," which means messenger, for the angels are G‑d's messengers to perform various missions. Every angel is "programmed" to perform certain tasks; such as Michael who is dispatched on missions which are expressions of G‑d's kindness; Gavriel, who executes G‑d's severe judgments; and Rafael, whose responsibility it is to heal.8 Some angels are created for one specific task, and upon the task's completion cease to exist. According to the Zohar9 one of the angels' tasks is to transport our words of prayer and Torah-study before G‑d's throne.

Another type of angels are those that are created through the deeds of man. In the words of our Sages: "He who fulfills one mitzvah, acquires for himself one angel-advocate; he who commits one transgression, acquires against himself one angel-accuser."10 These are formed from the (intellectual and emotional) energy which one invests in the performance of a mitzvah, the study of Torah, or in prayer—or, conversely, energy applied in the execution of a sin.

According to some schools of thought, the term angel in Jewish literature can also refer to the rules of nature, which – though ostensibly "natural" powers – are also G‑dly endowed powers; His messengers that perform His will.11

In our daily prayers we refer to the songs of praise which the angels sing before G‑d. The angels have "shifts," singing at designated times of day or night. The type of praise they sing reflects the particular angel's spiritual status. The angels' singing is alluded to in the abovementioned story of Jacob's fight with the angel, at the end of which the angel pleaded with Jacob to free him "for the dawn has risen."12 According to the Midrash, the angel's rush was because his shift to sing before G‑d had arrived. Similarly, according to the Midrash, when Moses spent forty days studying with G‑d, he knew what time of day it was based on the changing shifts of the angels' singing.

Assuming Human Form

There is some debate among the great Jewish philosophers whether the angels that the Torah describes as appearing actually assumed a visible physical form,13 or they appeared in the course of a spiritual vision or prophecy—in which the angels appeared as physical beings.14 According to all approaches, however, seeing an angel requires extra-sensory perception, as the bodies of the angels are not comprised of all the basic elements of a physical being.

Angels vs. Humans

Notwithstanding the great spiritual level of the angels, the holiness of the Jewish soul supersedes that of the angel. Only the Jewish soul has the ability to descend to this physical and corporeal world and refine and elevate it.15 For the human's divine soul is a "veritable piece of G‑d Above," a "piece" of the Creator; as opposed to the angels which are creations—albeit very holy ones.

This reflects itself in that fact that angels are one-dimensional: each angels has one specific form of Divine service. The human soul, on the other hand, serves G‑d in many different ways, expressing itself through love, awe, etc.

In the Tanya,16 Rabbi Schneur Zalman of Liadi writes that he heard from his masters that "if one angel were to stand in the presence of a gathering of ten Jews, even if there were no words of Torah [being discussed] between them, such a boundless and infinite terror and dread would then befall him on account of the Divine Presence that abides over them, that he would become utterly nullified!"

Furthermore, angels have no free-choice and are pre-programmed to serve G‑d, whereas the human is entrusted with the mission of serving G‑d—but is given the freedom to choose to do otherwise. As such, the mitzvot preformed by the human are of much greater value than the angels' service, and propel him or her to infinitely greater spiritual heights, as opposed to the angels who are "trapped" in a consistent level of spiritual consciousness.

Rabbi Sholom DovBer of Lubavitch once described the feelings he experienced while reciting the daily morning prayers: "When I recite the part of prayer which describes the praise that the angels sing before G‑d, I envy them. But when I read the Shema, the praise that the Jew sings before G‑d, I wonder: 'Where have all the angels gone?'"

[DispensationalJim]

Okay, let us examine it again

Isaiah 49:4

7. So said the Lord(God), the Redeemer of Israel (God), his Holy One (God), about him(Israel) who is despised of men, about him whom the nation abhors (Israel), about a slave of rulers, "Kings shall see and rise, princes, and they shall prostrate themselves(Israel), for the sake of the Lord (God)Who is faithful, the Holy One of Israel (God), and He chose you(Israel)."


There are many things that decribe him.

He is

He Lord
Redeemer Of Israel
His Holy One

The "about" is then talking about Israel

Forgive me, Mike, but that just doesn't make sense to me.

You said:
"He is (you could add ":" or "..." here for clarity)

... "He Lord" (do you mean "The Lord?)
... "Redeemer Of Israel"
... "His Holy One"

I CERTAINLY DO SEE AT LEAST TWO PERSONS THERE.

So, Mike, are you saying that "He is... His Holy One." What kind of statement is that? He is His (own) Holy One?

I would ask: He is WHOSE Holy One?

[CMike11]

Forgive me, Mike, but that just doesn't make sense to me.

You said:
"He is (you could add ":" or "..." here for clarity)

... "He Lord" (do you mean "The Lord?)
... "Redeemer Of Israel"
... "His Holy One"

I CERTAINLY DO SEE AT LEAST TWO PERSONS THERE.

So, Mike, are you saying that "He is... His Holy One." What kind of statement is that? He is His (own) Holy One?

I would ask: He is WHOSE Holy One?

By "his" Holy One, it's similar to saying "the" holy One.

An example, CMike11, His King and Majesty of All The Realm.

It has a nice ring to it too. hummm.

[Meriweather]

Explain how one can be the anointed one of Almighty God and Almighty God at the same time

I go back to what Jesus said about himself. He said he was one with God; that before Abraham was, I AM.

Jesus was also human, born of a woman, who suffered and died. Along with declaring himself, I AM and One with God, he also constantly referred to himself as "Son of Man."

If one accepts that Jesus was being both truthful and knowledgeable about himself, we have a Being who has two natures. He is both man and God.

We see this in what Jesus said he was sent to do: One, he was sent to forgive sins when only God can forgive sin.

Two, he was sent to bring redemption to mankind, when again, it would take God, Himself, to redeem His creation.

Three, Jesus was sent to tell us about the Kingdom of God--that it is at hand, i.e., that it is in reach of all us, right here, right now in this life. Jesus came to lead and show by example, the narrow way.

To teach all of us and show us that yes, we as humans, can attain perfect obedience to the will of God and thereby enter the Kingdom, a human was needed. So, God spoke the incarnation, and the Word (Wisdom) and Power of God became man. There was now a living human being that God was manifest within. This did not diminish God in any way, or limit Him in anyway. He retained His nature as God, because God cannot stop being who He is.

At the beginning of time the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters; the Creator spoke, and the Words of God brought order and life to our world. This Creator Father; His Spirit moving over the chaos; His Word bringing Life is what I have always considered to be the Trinity. At a specific moment in time, the Word of God also took on human nature, while remaining one with Creator and Spirit.

As human, Jesus was anointed by God the tasks of forgiveness, redemption, and setting up the Kingdom on earth; as human, he had to learn obedience to the Heavenly will in order to accomplish these works.

When this thread became derailed, I was trying to learn the distinctions between Trinity and Oneness doctrine, because somewhere along the way, the concept I've always held of Trinity (Creator-Father; Word-Son; and Spirit all being One (and therefore the same) seems to have meshed together. To me it seemed both sides were using different words to describe the exact same phenomenon and that Trinity and Oneness are actually synonymous. I was just beginning to understand this is not the case.

However, since the thread has been derailed, I'll happily conclude Trinity is Oneness and Oneness includes Trinity--and that the argument is resolved (until such time that it surfaces again). I'll see what I can learn the next time around.

[Tucson Jim]

blah blah blah

At least THAT was closer to the topic of the thread than your typical post . . .

[Tucson Jim]

Oh come on JIM, If Jesus is not who you and some others here say he is, the trinity is bogus. And it just strengthens the teachings of Judiasm and the ot.

No offense just my opinion.


And my opinion is these are two completely different topics. And I'm not the only one who feels that way.

[Tucson Jim]

Just popped in to see if people are still responding to the derailment and they are.

check back later.

There are some Trinity posts interspersed among the "Jewish view of the messiah" hijacking. Stick around Warrior!

[Tucson Jim]

The derailment of truth :question:

No, the derailment of the Trinity thread.

[DispensationalJim]

By "his" Holy One, it's similar to saying "the" holy One.

An example, CMike11, His King and Majesty of All The Realm.

It has a nice ring to it too. hummm.

So sorry, Mike, but that still just doesn't make sense to me.

It still sounds like two different persons.

Anyway, we're still causing others to be concerned that this thread will never get back to The TRINITY, so let's give it a rest.

[DRS]

I go back to what Jesus said about himself. He said he was one with God; that before Abraham was, I AM.

Jesus was also human, born of a woman, who suffered and died. Along with declaring himself, I AM and One with God, he also constantly referred to himself as "Son of Man."

If one accepts that Jesus was being both truthful and knowledgeable about himself, we have a Being who has two natures. He is both man and God.

We see this in what Jesus said he was sent to do: One, he was sent to forgive sins when only God can forgive sin.

Two, he was sent to bring redemption to mankind, when again, it would take God, Himself, to redeem His creation.

Three, Jesus was sent to tell us about the Kingdom of God--that it is at hand, i.e., that it is in reach of all us, right here, right now in this life. Jesus came to lead and show by example, the narrow way.

To teach all of us and show us that yes, we as humans, can attain perfect obedience to the will of God and thereby enter the Kingdom, a human was needed. So, God spoke the incarnation, and the Word (Wisdom) and Power of God became man. There was now a living human being that God was manifest within. This did not diminish God in any way, or limit Him in anyway. He retained His nature as God, because God cannot stop being who He is.

At the beginning of time the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters; the Creator spoke, and the Words of God brought order and life to our world. This Creator Father; His Spirit moving over the chaos; His Word bringing Life is what I have always considered to be the Trinity. At a specific moment in time, the Word of God also took on human nature, while remaining one with Creator and Spirit.

As human, Jesus was anointed by God the tasks of forgiveness, redemption, and setting up the Kingdom on earth; as human, he had to learn obedience to the Heavenly will in order to accomplish these works.

When this thread became derailed, I was trying to learn the distinctions between Trinity and Oneness doctrine, because somewhere along the way, the concept I've always held of Trinity (Creator-Father; Word-Son; and Spirit all being One (and therefore the same) seems to have meshed together. To me it seemed both sides were using different words to describe the exact same phenomenon and that Trinity and Oneness are actually synonymous. I was just beginning to understand this is not the case.

However, since the thread has been derailed, I'll happily conclude Trinity is Oneness and Oneness includes Trinity--and that the argument is resolved (until such time that it surfaces again). I'll see what I can learn the next time around.


Many translatation have that as I have been or existed

God never refers to himself as I AM

Jesus also prayed his followers be one does this make us the same person?

Did not Jesus state all authority had been given to him?

Who gives Almighty God authority?

Did he not say just as hears he judges?

Who use to judge Israel was it not Moses?

[CMike11]

So sorry, Mike, but that still just doesn't make sense to me.

It still sounds like two different persons.

Anyway, we're still causing others to be concerned that this thread will never get back to The TRINITY, so let's give it a rest.

That's because you want to believe that there are two beings. There aren't.

Judaism, jewish scripture, makes it absolutely clear that there is only one divine G-D.

[CMike11]

Many translatation have that as I have been or existed

God never refers to himself as I AM

Jesus also prayed his followers be one does this make us the same person?

Did not Jesus state all authority had been given to him?

Who gives Almighty God authority?

Did he not say just as hears he judges?



Who use to judge Israel was it not Moses?

You must have missed the ten commandments.

2 I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery;
3 Do not have any other gods before me.

[DRS]

Here is what angels are all about
http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/692875/jewish/What-Are-Angels.htm


What Are Angels?

By Baruch S. Davidson



The Jewish belief in angels goes as far back as the Book of Genesis, where we read about angels calling out to Abraham at the binding of Isaac, angels appearing in Jacob's dream, Jacob fighting with an angel, and many more accounts of angelic activity.1 Angels are then mentioned numerous times throughout the other books of the Torah, Prophets, and Scriptures.

According to Jewish tradition, an angel is a spiritual being and does not have any physical characteristics. The angelic descriptions provided by the prophets – such as wings, arms etc. – are anthropomorphic, referring to their spiritual abilities and tasks.


Angel Names

The first angels mentioned by name in the Bible are Gavriel (Gabriel) and Michael, in the Book of Daniel.2 In earlier books of the Torah, when people asked angels to disclose their names, they refused; such as in the abovementioned encounter of Jacob with the angel,3 and the story of the angel who appeared to Samson's parents in the Book of Judges.4 The Jerusalem Talmud comments5 that reference to angels by name only became common in the period following the return of the Jewish people to Israel in 348 BCE. In the Talmud and Kabbala many more angels are identified by name. Some other commonly known names of angels include Uriel, Reziel, Metatron, and Laila.6

Maimonides explains7 that all angels fall under one of ten ranks. Namely: Chayot Hakodesh, Ophanim, Erelim, Chashmalim, Seraphim, Malachim, Elokim, Bene Elokim, Cheruvim, and Ishim. These ranks refer to the degree of the angel's comprehension of G‑d; some have a greater understanding of G‑d and His ways than others.

Angel Functions

The Hebrew word for angel is "malach," which means messenger, for the angels are G‑d's messengers to perform various missions. Every angel is "programmed" to perform certain tasks; such as Michael who is dispatched on missions which are expressions of G‑d's kindness; Gavriel, who executes G‑d's severe judgments; and Rafael, whose responsibility it is to heal.8 Some angels are created for one specific task, and upon the task's completion cease to exist. According to the Zohar9 one of the angels' tasks is to transport our words of prayer and Torah-study before G‑d's throne.

Another type of angels are those that are created through the deeds of man. In the words of our Sages: "He who fulfills one mitzvah, acquires for himself one angel-advocate; he who commits one transgression, acquires against himself one angel-accuser."10 These are formed from the (intellectual and emotional) energy which one invests in the performance of a mitzvah, the study of Torah, or in prayer—or, conversely, energy applied in the execution of a sin.

According to some schools of thought, the term angel in Jewish literature can also refer to the rules of nature, which – though ostensibly "natural" powers – are also G‑dly endowed powers; His messengers that perform His will.11

In our daily prayers we refer to the songs of praise which the angels sing before G‑d. The angels have "shifts," singing at designated times of day or night. The type of praise they sing reflects the particular angel's spiritual status. The angels' singing is alluded to in the abovementioned story of Jacob's fight with the angel, at the end of which the angel pleaded with Jacob to free him "for the dawn has risen."12 According to the Midrash, the angel's rush was because his shift to sing before G‑d had arrived. Similarly, according to the Midrash, when Moses spent forty days studying with G‑d, he knew what time of day it was based on the changing shifts of the angels' singing.

Assuming Human Form

There is some debate among the great Jewish philosophers whether the angels that the Torah describes as appearing actually assumed a visible physical form,13 or they appeared in the course of a spiritual vision or prophecy—in which the angels appeared as physical beings.14 According to all approaches, however, seeing an angel requires extra-sensory perception, as the bodies of the angels are not comprised of all the basic elements of a physical being.

Angels vs. Humans

Notwithstanding the great spiritual level of the angels, the holiness of the Jewish soul supersedes that of the angel. Only the Jewish soul has the ability to descend to this physical and corporeal world and refine and elevate it.15 For the human's divine soul is a "veritable piece of G‑d Above," a "piece" of the Creator; as opposed to the angels which are creations—albeit very holy ones.

This reflects itself in that fact that angels are one-dimensional: each angels has one specific form of Divine service. The human soul, on the other hand, serves G‑d in many different ways, expressing itself through love, awe, etc.

In the Tanya,16 Rabbi Schneur Zalman of Liadi writes that he heard from his masters that "if one angel were to stand in the presence of a gathering of ten Jews, even if there were no words of Torah [being discussed] between them, such a boundless and infinite terror and dread would then befall him on account of the Divine Presence that abides over them, that he would become utterly nullified!"

Furthermore, angels have no free-choice and are pre-programmed to serve G‑d, whereas the human is entrusted with the mission of serving G‑d—but is given the freedom to choose to do otherwise. As such, the mitzvot preformed by the human are of much greater value than the angels' service, and propel him or her to infinitely greater spiritual heights, as opposed to the angels who are "trapped" in a consistent level of spiritual consciousness.

Rabbi Sholom DovBer of Lubavitch once described the feelings he experienced while reciting the daily morning prayers: "When I recite the part of prayer which describes the praise that the angels sing before G‑d, I envy them. But when I read the Shema, the praise that the Jew sings before G‑d, I wonder: 'Where have all the angels gone?'"

I have to wonder if you actually know what you believe since you are constantly cutting and pasting

Now here is the downfall of Jewish thought regarding angels this attributes all the evil that has happened to God, saying tht Satan does just as he is told, so the suffering of Job for instance was God's idea

It is funny how you will not write out God's name of even the word God but you will slander Him

Servents of God know that He can not be tried by evil nor does He try others by evil.

[DRS]

You must have missed the ten commandments.

2 I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery;
3 Do not have any other gods before me.

That is not His name

I am Daniel
Daniel is my name not I am

[DRS]

You must have missed the ten commandments.

2 I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery;
3 Do not have any other gods before me.

That is not His name

I am Daniel
Daniel is my name not I am

Hence why we see this when translated from manuscripts without alterations

2*“I am Jehovah your God, who have brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slaves. 3*You must not have any other gods against my face.

[Meriweather]

Many translatation have that as I have been or existed

God never refers to himself as I AM

Exodus 3:14 comes to mind. Even if you choose to translate this differently, Jews and Christians alike see Jesus equating himself to God.

Jesus also prayed his followers be one does this make us the same person?

You are addressing John 17, where as I am addressing John 10:29-30.

"My father who has given them to me, is greater than all and no one can take them out of the Father's hand. The Father and I are one." Chapter 17 has a separate context.

Did not Jesus state all authority had been given to him?

Who gives Almighty God authority?

Did he not say just as hears he judges?

Who use to judge Israel was it not Moses?

Here we return to discussing the two natures of Jesus. All authority had been given to his human nature for him to draw on.

[DRS]

Exodus 3:14 comes to mind. Even if you choose to translate this differently, Jews and Christians alike see Jesus equating himself to God.



You are addressing John 17, where as I am addressing John 10:29-30.

"My father who has given them to me, is greater than all and no one can take them out of the Father's hand. The Father and I are one." Chapter 17 has a separate context.



Here we return to discussing the two natures of Jesus. All authority had been given to his human nature for him to draw on.

No 3:14 is just plain wrong not a matter or translation the fact that the corrct wording is used in verse 12 in most bibles shows this

Jesus was given authority in heaven to and that it was God who have given him such authority

Now if Jesus is Almighty God in heaven why is he still given authority and submitted to the one who submits things to him?

[CMike11]

I have to wonder if you actually know what you believe since you are constantly cutting and pasting

Yup I do.

As I mentioned in the article this is the role of angels and how humans interact with them

"Another type of angels are those that are created through the deeds of man. In the words of our Sages: "He who fulfills one mitzvah, acquires for himself one angel-advocate; he who commits one transgression, acquires against himself one angel-accuser."10 These are formed from the (intellectual and emotional) energy which one invests in the performance of a mitzvah, the study of Torah, or in prayer—or, conversely, energy applied in the execution of a sin."

Now here is the downfall of Jewish thought regarding angels this attributes all the evil that has happened to God, saying tht Satan does just as he is told, so the suffering of Job for instance was God's idea

It is funny how you will not write out God's name of even the word God but you will slander Him

Servents of God know that He can not be tried by evil nor does He try others by evil.

You asked about angels, here is jewish thought about Satan.

http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/512017/jewish/Is-there-any-sort-of-Purgatory-or-Satan-in-Jewish-teachings.htm

According to Torah, no spiritual force opposes G‑d. This includes Satan, who is a spiritual entity that faithfully carries out its divinely assigned task of trying to seduce people to stumble. Satan is also identified with the Prosecutor above -- that's what the word Satan itself means: it's just Hebrew for prosecutor -- who levels charges against the guilty party who succumbs to its wily arguments. Look in the beginning chapter of the Book of Job and you'll see that clearly.

In fact, the Talmud says, all that Satan does, he does for the sake of heaven. Without him, the defense attorney wouldn't bother to dig up all the merits of the defense. And the defense would have to try so hard to give himself more merits.

So you see that really nothing happens in the entire world without G-d approving. That's why we Jews have so many complaints to him that we need to talk to him three times a day. The buck really stops at His office.

Finally, when the Divine Court decides that someone, G‑d forbid, deserves to die, then Satan is dispatched from Above to carry out the sentence.3

[CMike11]

Here is more about the role of Satan, the Jewish New Year is coming up next week, so it's kind of fitting.


http://www.torah.org/learning/iyov/iyov2.html

6. "One day the children of G-d came to stand before the Lord and the Satan came among them."

Commentary
"One day the children of G-d came to stand before the Lord and the Satan came among them."

"The day" that the verse is referring to, according to Rashi's commentary, was Rosh Hashana, the Jewish new year. Obviously the plight of Iyov is the result of Divine judgment. The Mishna, in tractate Rosh Hashana, explains that on the first day of Rosh Hashana all the inhabitants of this planet come before the heavenly tribunal for judgment. The due-process of Divine justice follows, to a great extent, the same pattern as a modern-day court.

Judge, prosecutor, defendant and witnesses are all part of the scheme. Our sages observed that G-d structures the kingdom of heaven similar to the style of earthly kingdoms. This is, at first, a difficult concept for us to appreciate and requires some serious thought and discussion.

The human mind, no matter how great, is finite; i.e., its capacity for understanding and knowledge is limited. Hence, the concept of an infinite Being who possesses infinite wisdom and power can be confounding. In order to get a "grasp" on the Divine we require an approach that is familiar to our human experience. To this end G-d convenes His heavenly tribunal on the day known as Rosh Hashana. Certainly G-d does not require a court system in order to judge His mortal subjects. For us, however, the familiarity of a judicial proceeding can be a great benefit. The knowledge that we stand in judgment at least once a year helps us fulfill our commitment and measure up to the higher authority of G-d. It also helps us develop our own personal relationship with our Creator.

The fear of prosecution drives home an acute awareness of our responsibility and accountability (SATAN). At the same time, it is comforting to know that we have a personal advocate to argue on our behalf. This gives us the strength not to fall into despair, and the courage to continue our efforts to reach even higher levels of character perfection. To stand in judgment can be a daunting experience, especially if one does not understand the course of due-process in the Divine court.

It is fundamental to Jewish thought that everything in the physical world has a spiritual counterpart, commonly referred to as angels, which are responsible for the growth and sustenance of all that exists in creation. These spiritual forces do not function independently of G-d. Rather, they are His delegates who are charged with specific missions. In this light we can understand the role of the "Satan" mentioned in verse #6. He is the prosecutor of the Divine court. Our sages describe the Satan as the force responsible for evil, death, destruction and temptation.

In addition to his role as prosecutor, the Satan is the chief instigator of crime against man and G-d. It is axiomatic that in order to fully exercise free will, equal opportunity for good and evil must exist. There can be no virtue in choosing good over evil if the latter is not, at the very least, equally accessible. The provocation of the Satan manifests itself in every moral and ethical dilemma we are faced with. Our deliberation may be an internal struggle of conscience or a battle with external social norms. The result is mental turmoil - the signature of the Satan. Temptation?.... it takes stress to forge mind and soul. The Satan's role is not a scheme to corrupt our spirit. In fact, the Satan has a central role in the transformation of the mundane human being into a sanctified person.

Summary
On the day of judgment, Rosh Hashana, we find our friend Job in the defendant's chair. He faces a powerful prosecutor, the Satan. Along with his task of chief prosecutor in the Divine court, the Satan is the spiritual source of all evil. What remains for us to discuss on this verse is the role of the "children of G-d".

[CMike11]

So sorry, Mike, but that still just doesn't make sense to me.

It still sounds like two different persons.

Anyway, we're still causing others to be concerned that this thread will never get back to The TRINITY, so let's give it a rest.

I don't feel sorry for them.

They could exercise some self control, and decide what to post, what to respond to, and what not to respond to.

[God is My Rock]

Naphal means fell in hebrew.

http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/8171/showrashi/true/jewish/Chapter-6.htm

4. The Nephilim were on the earth in those days, and also afterward, when the sons of the nobles would come to the daughters of man, and they would bear for them; they are the mighty men, who were of old, the men of renown

Rashi below
The Nephilim [They were called נְפִילִים because they fell (נָפְלוּ) and caused the world to fall (הִפִּילוּ) (Gen. Rabbah 26:7), and in the Hebrew language it means giants (Pirkei d’Rabbi Eliezer , ch.22). and Targum Jonathan.

Thank you.

[DRS]

See Mike that is the difference between judaism and the bible

Judaism blames God for the evil in the world saying that Satan does what God wants

Where as the bible shows the free will of God's creation and what happens when the creation rebels

[CMike11]

See Mike that is the difference between judaism and the bible

Judaism blames God for the evil in the world saying that Satan does what God wants

Where as the bible shows the free will of God's creation and what happens when the creation rebels

You interpretation is rather messed up.

Satan serves a purpose for G-D. Satan helps people sanctify and elevate themselves.

Satan, the evil inclination, tempts people to do bad things.

People have free will. If they don't have at least an equal choice to do bad, as they do good, how do they elevate themselves?

People elevate themsleves by choosing to do good, instead of bad, despite the temptations. However, if there was no desire to do bad, then people are like robots, and can not raise themselves up, and bring themselves closer to G-D.

In this way, people are considered even on a higher plane than angels. Angels don't have free well so they don't have the ability to elevate themselves. They are just messengers and robots of G-D.

Satan is a messenger and a robot of G-D, whose purpose is to tempt man to do bad things, and the ideal is for man to not give in to the bad side, and do good things, and thereby make themselves closer to G-D.

[CMike11]

See Mike that is the difference between judaism and the bible

Judaism blames God for the evil in the world saying that Satan does what God wants

Where as the bible shows the free will of God's creation and what happens when the creation rebels

Just one more thing, there is no difference between Judaism and the bible.

Judaism is from the bible.

[CMike11]

I just thought of an example.

Let's say I see an old lady struggeling to get across the street.

My evil inclination (Satan) is saying hey I am in a hurry, she will manage, she might be nuts and bop me with her purse.

My good inclination is saying hey it's the right thing to do.

And let's say I listen to my good inclination and I help the old lady.

If my evil inclination wasn't there, why should I get credit for helping the woman? I would be almost programed to do good. The act itself would have been nothing meaningful.

The fact that I didn't succumb to my evil inclination is why this good act would bring me closer to G-D.

[hillplus]

...
In this way, people are considered even on a higher plane than angels. Angels don't have free well so they don't have the ability to elevate themselves. They are just messengers and robots of G-D.

...

Wow, I had no idea that Jews believed that angels are like robots.

[CMike11]

Thank you.

You bet

[DRS]

Just one more thing, there is no difference between Judaism and the bible.

Judaism is from the bible.

That is like saying Islam and the trinitarian belief is from the bible also, you can say anything you want but it is pretty much impossible to prove it with out making changes to the bible or choosing to ignore whole books

[DRS]

Wow, I had no idea that Jews believed that angels are like robots.

Kind of makes God seem petty, haveing created robot cheerleaders to sing His praises and rejoice over creation

[CMike11]

That is like saying Islam and the trinitarian belief is from the bible also, you can say anything you want but it is pretty much impossible to prove it with out making changes to the bible or choosing to ignore whole books

That is an absurd statement.

The bible is written by jews for jews. It's the heart of the jewish soul.

In fact it was the code of law for jews, and the jewish government governed based on the bible.

The bible has the following relevance for jews.

Historical

Legal

Spriritual

Mystical.

It is the jewish soul.

Obviously by bible I meant the torah.

[DRS]

There is nothing mystical in the bible and the modern jews soul is found in rashi or the oral torah, the written torah is not the same as modern judaism

[anitas]

The old testament was written for jews, yet you will find many places where others were invited to believe and live for God. The New Testament is another story, Jesus a Jew, died for all people and it is plainly stated that way in most every page.

[CMike11]

There is nothing mystical in the bible and the modern jews soul is found in rashi or the oral torah, the written torah is not the same as modern judaism

Good one.

:)):)):)):))

[CMike11]

Kind of makes God seem petty, haveing created robot cheerleaders to sing His praises and rejoice over creation

:rolleyes:

[CMike11]

There is nothing mystical in the bible and the modern jews soul is found in rashi or the oral torah, the written torah is not the same as modern judaism

http://www.myjewishlearning.com/ideas_belief/Kabbalah_and_Mysticism/Mysticism_TO_KabHas.htm

KABBALAH AND HASIDISM


Overview: Kabbalah and Hasidism


Beginning in the 10th century, Jewish mystics and philosophers wrote commentaries on Sefer Yetzirah, a book about the secrets of creation probably written around the third century. At the same time, Jewish mystics compiled works of heikhalot literature, an early corpus of texts focused on mystical ascents to heaven. These endeavors formed the bridge between early Jewish mysticism and its medieval golden era.



Two new mystical movements emerged in the 12th century. The Hasidei Ashkenaz (“the pious ones of Germany”) collected previously written mystical texts and wrote treatises on the supernatural, including astrology and demonology. For the most part, the Hasidei Ashkenaz were associated with a single family, the Kalonymus family.



Meanwhile, kabbalah, the medieval mystical tradition whose practitioners attempted to understand, affect, and communicate with the divine, was being developed in Provence and Northern Spain. Sefer ha-Bahir, a book of unknown authorship,is the most important early kabbalistic work. This book, written in the form of traditional midrashim—rabbinic dialogues and commentaries on the biblical text—introduces a revised theory of the sefirot, the ten attributes of God first mentioned in Sefer Yetzirah. In kabbalah, God as God—the Ein Sof or “the Infinite”—cannot be comprehended by humans. God can only be understood as He reveals himself in the sefirot. The sefirot are dynamic; they interact with each other and can be affected by humans. Indeed, much of the Kabbalah is an attempt to influence and “fix” the sefirot.



The doctrine of the sefirot reached its fullest articulation in the Zohar, a mystical commentary on the Torah. The Zohar interprets the Torah symbolically in an attempt to extract secrets about the divine realm.It is also structured like a midrash, is written in Aramaic, and was long attributed to the 2nd-century sage Shimon bar Yohai. The Zohar is now believed to be the work of the 13th-century Spanish Jewish mystic Moses de Leon, or as recent scholars have suggested, the work of a group of mystics including Moses de Leon.



The kabbalah of the Zohar is a form of theosophic kabbalah, as it aims at initiating change within God. The kabbalah of Abraham Abulafia (1240-1291), on the other hand, is internally directed. It aims at affecting change within the mystic himself. Abulafia used chanting, meditation, and music to help him achieve this mystical experience. Like the theosophic kabbalists, Abulafia used the Torah to reach his mystical goals, but instead of interpreting the text of the Torah, he deconstructed its words and meditated on its letters. Abulafia aimed at achieving nothing less than prophecy, and he believed that this could be attained by taking apart Hebrew words and reorganizing them as divine names.



After the expulsion of Jews from Spain in 1492, the center of Jewish mysticism moved to the Palestinian city of Safed. There, Moses Cordevero (1522-1570) wrote a definitive commentary on the Zohar, and other important mystics, like the great halakhist Joseph Caro (1488-1575), taught and wrote. Isaac Luria (1534-1572) was the greatest of the Safed kabbalists. His most important theological innovation was his theory of creation. According to Luria, the creation of the world was a complicated, delicate activity that required a transformation of the divine being. Before the world was created, God occupied every inch of the universe. In order to make room for a world, God needed to contract, a process Luria called tzimtzum. After this contraction, God directed divine light into vessels, but the vessels couldn’t contain the light, and they broke, letting evil and imperfection into the world. The purpose of human history is tikkun, fixing the broken vessels. This is achieved by fulfilling the commandments of the Torah.



Hasidism emerged in the middle of the 18th century. The movement is traced to Israel ben Eliezer, known as the Baal Shem Tov (1700-1760)—usually translated as “Master of the Good Name”—an itinerant teacher and healer who taught that everyone, even the uneducated masses, can have personal interaction with the divine. The ultimate value of Hasidism is devekut, attachment to God.



Dov Baer, the Maggid (Preacher) of Mezeritch, succeeded the Baal Shem Tov as the leader of Hasidism. Eventually, however, Hasidism divided into several branches, often named for the geographic location where they took root. Each Hasidic sect has a leader, known as a rebbe or tzaddik, who serves as something of a facilitator, enabling the relationship between his constituents and God. The role of the rebbe often passes from father to son.



Initially, Hasidism was fiercely opposed by traditional Jewish authorities. Ironically, many Jews now perceive Hasidim (as members of the various Hasidic sects are known) as embodying the most traditional form of Judaism.

[CMike11]

A little more on Kaballah

http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/170308/jewish/What-is-Kabbalah.htm

[free2B]

:rolleyes:

:eh:

[Warrior4God]

Maybe we have the derailment headed back on track .............I hope so because the topic never gets old when dealing with the trinity.


by the way to those who derail I would suggest you take heed to what FW has to say about it..............

3. Posters who repeatedly and purposely veer threads off topic will be in danger of having their access to this forum removed.


I don't think he is bluffing.

[Tucson Jim]

Maybe we have the derailment headed back on track .............I hope so because the topic never gets old when dealing with the trinity.



Amen Warrior!

[Warrior4God]

As this thread has progressed I have yet to see from scripture how Jesus is was or will be equal with God.

I think this would be an interesting thing to look at from scripture.

Any thoughts?

Or scripture that deals with your view on either side of the debate?


Cmon lets take this thread back.

[HardHammer]

As this thread has progressed I have yet to see from scripture how Jesus is was or will be equal with God.

I think this would be an interesting thing to look at from scripture.

Any thoughts?

Or scripture that deals with your view on either side of the debate?


Cmon lets take this thread back.

W4G,

What about The Book of Titus? Who is your Savior?

[lwdc]

As this thread has progressed I have yet to see from scripture how Jesus is was or will be equal with God."I and the Father are one." - John 10:30

[Warrior4God]

W4G,

What about The Book of Titus? Who is your Savior?

The context of the verse helps us to understand its meaning. The verse is talking about saying “no” to ungodliness while we wait for the appearing of Jesus Christ, who is the glory of God.

The purpose of the verse must be taken into account and it is not talking about the doctrine of the Trinity in any way, nor is there any reason to think that Paul would be talking about equality with God or even making a Trinitarian reference here.

It makes perfect sense for Scripture to call Christ “the glory of God”

[Warrior4God]

"I and the Father are one." - John 10:30

There is no reason to take this verse to mean that Christ was saying that he and the Father make up “one God.”

The phrase is and was a common one.

Paul wrote to the Corinthians and used the same phrase...............

1Co 3:6 I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase.
1Co 3:7 So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase.
1Co 3:8a Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one.....



Jesus used the phrase in other places of “being one” , and from them one can see that “one purpose” is what he was talking about.


John 11:52 says Jesus was to die to make all God’s children “one.”

In John 17 Jesus prayed to his God that his believers would be “one” as he and God were “one.”

[lwdc]

"I and the Father are one." - John 10:30There is no reason to take this verse to mean that Christ was saying that he and the Father make up “one God.”Continuing with John chapter 10: 31 Again the Jews picked up stones to stone him, 32 but Jesus said to them, "I have shown you many great miracles from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?" 33 "We are not stoning you for any of these," replied the Jews, "but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God.Everyone understood clearly what Jesus meant.

[Warrior4God]

Continuing with John chapter 10: Everyone understood clearly what Jesus meant.
This verse has been misunderstood which was caused by the translators.

If they properly translatedthe Greek text in verse 33 as they did in verses 34 and 35, then it would read, “…you, a man, claim to be a god.” In the next two verses, John 10:34 and 35, the exact same word (theos, without the article) is translated as “god,” not “God.”

I would not put much stock in what his accusers said anyway.........They did not believe in him.

Jesus never claimed equality with God.


Jesus was clearly teaching that he was sent by God and was doing God’s work. Thus, it makes perfect sense that the Pharisees would say he was claiming to be “a god” or “divine.”

[lwdc]

This verse has been misunderstood which was caused by the translators.

If they properly translatedthe Greek text in verse 33 as they did in verses 34 and 35, then it would read, “…you, a man, claim to be a god.” In the next two verses, John 10:34 and 35, the exact same word (theos, without the article) is translated as “god,” not “God.”

I would not put much stock in what his accusers said anyway.........They did not believe in him.

Jesus never claimed equality with God.No.

Jesus said, "I and the Father are one." He was saying he was equal with God, not with "a god". His accusers understood him perfectly.
Jesus was clearly teaching that he was sent by God and was doing God’s work. Thus, it makes perfect sense that the Pharisees would say he was claiming to be “a god” or “divine.”The Pharisees were angry that He was claiming to be God, which in their book is blasphemy. They heard what He said perfectly.

[ralittlefield]

This verse has been misunderstood which was caused by the translators.

If they properly translatedthe Greek text in verse 33 as they did in verses 34 and 35, then it would read, “…you, a man, claim to be a god.” In the next two verses, John 10:34 and 35, the exact same word (theos, without the article) is translated as “god,” not “God.”

You are wrong here warrior.

If that was the case, John 1:1, 1:6, 1:12, 1:13 & two times in 1:18 should be translated "a god".


It is the context that decides whether to translate "God" or a "god".



I would not put much stock in what his accusers said anyway.........They did not believe in him.

Jesus never claimed equality with God.


Jesus was clearly teaching that he was sent by God and was doing God’s work. Thus, it makes perfect sense that the Pharisees would say he was claiming to be “a god” or “divine.”

They also understood that there was no god besides Jehovah.

They did not like Jesus' claim to be the Son of God, because that made him equal with God.

[DispensationalJim]

W4G,

What about The Book of Titus? Who is your Savior?

Thank you, HH!

Just in case Warrior forgot to check Titus out, here are the verses to which you probably allude:

==============================

• Titus 1:3 But hath in due times manifested his word through preaching, which is committed unto me according to the commandment of God our Saviour; 4 To Titus, mine own son after the common faith: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ our Saviour.
• Titus 2:10 Not purloining, but shewing all good fidelity; that they may adorn the doctrine of God our Saviour in all things. 13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
• Titus 3:4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared, 6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;

==============================

So, Warrior, who is OUR SAVIOUR?

PAUL seems to use God and Jesus Christ INTERCHANGEABLY there, doesn't he?

==============================

And it's good to have the Trinity thread back even for a little while.

[Angryamerican]

"I and the Father are one." - John 10:30

Now just read the rest of that chapter it paints a different picture. He is saying they are one in unity, not the same or equal.

[Angryamerican]

No.

Jesus said, "I and the Father are one." He was saying he was equal with God, not with "a god". His accusers understood him perfectly.
The Pharisees were angry that He was claiming to be God, which in their book is blasphemy. They heard what He said perfectly.

By your reasoning, Please explain this ?

Joh 14:28 You have heard how I said to you, I go away and I am coming to you again. If you loved Me, you would rejoice because I said, I go to the Father, for My Father is greater than I.

[Angryamerican]

It seems to me, you can believe in the trinity or Jesus being the actual son of God. It seems the nt supports both views.

Both views have been supported with scripture.

[lwdc]

By your reasoning, Please explain this ?

Joh 14:28 You have heard how I said to you, I go away and I am coming to you again. If you loved Me, you would rejoice because I said, I go to the Father, for My Father is greater than I.My heart is greater than my spleen, yet both are me.

[DRS]

My heart is greater than my spleen, yet both are me.

Unless you spleen is a different person from your heart then there is no comparison, unless you want to try and substitute your heart for your spleen to prove that you an substitute Jesus for God

[Reeder]

Unless you spleen is a different person from your heart then there is no comparison, unless you want to try and substitute your heart for your spleen to prove that you an substitute Jesus for God

:confused:

[Koushi Shinigami]

:confused:

Would you like to hear about the dangers of randomly throwing the letter 'Q' into privet bushes?

[Angryamerican]

My heart is greater than my spleen, yet both are me.

Yep both are me, And one part of me is greater then the other. :shifty: You can believe either way because the nt supports both views.

[drmilo]

Yep both are me, And one part of me is greater then the other. :shifty: You can believe either way because the nt supports both views.

Except the view of the trinity is inclusive of the view that Jesus is the Son of God; the view of the trinity is inclusive that Jesus was a man. If the view of the trinity is true, then belief in the trinity is the belief in the complete truth, and the other beliefs are only belief in part of the truth.

[Angryamerican]

Except the view of the trinity is inclusive of the view that Jesus is the Son of God; the view of the trinity is inclusive that Jesus was a man. If the view of the trinity is true, then belief in the trinity is the belief in the complete truth, and the other beliefs are only belief in part of the truth.



You have to admit there is nothing to suggest that God would come to the earth as a man in the ot.

There is nothing in the ot to suggest that God was gonna be put to death to save mankind.

There is nothing in the ot to suggest that God is triune in nature.

So why would God hide that nature from the Jews ? If God made himself known to them .

Eze 20:5 And say to them, So says the Lord Jehovah: In the day that I chose Israel, and lifted up My hand to the seed of the house of Jacob, and made Myself known to them in the land of Egypt; when I lifted up My hand to them, saying, I am Jehovah your God;

Eze 20:9 But I worked for My name's sake, that it should not be profaned before the nations among whom they were, for I made Myself known to them in their eyes, by bringing them out of the land of Egypt.

What if the trinity doctrine is wrong ?

[CMike11]

You have to admit there is nothing to suggest that God would come to the earth as a man in the ot.

There is nothing in the ot to suggest that God was gonna be put to death to save mankind.

There is nothing in the ot to suggest that God is triune in nature.

So why would God hide that nature from the Jews ? If God made himself known to them .

Eze 20:5 And say to them, So says the Lord Jehovah: In the day that I chose Israel, and lifted up My hand to the seed of the house of Jacob, and made Myself known to them in the land of Egypt; when I lifted up My hand to them, saying, I am Jehovah your God;

Eze 20:9 But I worked for My name's sake, that it should not be profaned before the nations among whom they were, for I made Myself known to them in their eyes, by bringing them out of the land of Egypt.

What if the trinity doctrine is wrong ?

you are absolutely right.

If "Jesus" was meant to be so central in Judaism, G-D would have explicitly told the jews about it in the Torah.

[Warrior4God]

It is the context that decides whether to translate "God" or a "god".

They did not like Jesus' claim to be the Son of God, because that made him equal with God.


You are right about context and if you look at the whole context then its clear.


You have one place where some people who despised Jesus were looking for anything to accuse him and if the fact that saying he was the Son of God made him equal with God he would surely have been brought before whoever would be able to have him silenced that very day.

they had nothing and never did ,even as he hung on that tree.

Jesus own words declared that he was not equal with God in account after account.


You have to remember that they thought being equal to God was blasphemy which is sin.

Jesus would have been sinning if he had been claiming equality with God.

He didn't, Thank God.

He professed his Father as his God,and that everyone knows.

[DRS]

you are absolutely right.

If "Jesus" was meant to be so central in Judaism, G-D would have explicitly told the jews about it in the Torah.

You mean like all those prophecies you want to say are not messianic

Of course judaism is not the center of the universe what Jesus was the key to was making possible the restoring of mankind and the Earth back to the original state

[drmilo]

You are right about context and if you look at the whole context then its clear.


You have one place where some people who despised Jesus were looking for anything to accuse him and if the fact that saying he was the Son of God made him equal with God he would surely have been brought before whoever would be able to have him silenced that very day.

they had nothing and never did ,even as he hung on that tree.

Two sides here, Warrior: Your side, they had nothing because what they accused him of was false -- They accused him of blasphemy and he never committed it because he never claimed to be God; Trintarian side: They had nothing because what they accused him of was false: They accused him of blasphemy but he never commited blasphemy because his claims of being God were absolutely true. In both mindsets, the accusation of blasphemy is false, but for very different reasons. Either he did not commit blasphemy because he never claimed to be God or equal with God; or he did not commit blasphemy because his claims of being God, or equal with God, was true.

Jesus own words declared that he was not equal with God in account after account. And yet, he also claimed equailty with God in account after account. As the Son of God, he is equal in nature (not function) with God the Father; as the Son of Man, he is subservient to God the Father in every way man is.


You have to remember that they thought being equal to God was blasphemy which is sin. Yes.

Jesus would have been sinning if he had been claiming equality with God. Not if the claim was true.

He didn't, Thank God.

He did reveal himself as both God and Man, Thank God, and Savior Jesus Christ.

He professed his Father as his God,and that everyone knows.
Which in no way denies that he is also a member of the triune God.

[Warrior4God]

And yet, he also claimed equailty with God in account after account. As the Son of God, he is equal in nature (not function) with God the Father; as the Son of Man, he is subservient to God the Father in every way man is.

He did reveal himself as both God and Man, Thank God, and Savior Jesus Christ.


Where?

Show me where Jesus claimed being God or equal to God.

[CMike11]

You mean like all those prophecies you want to say are not messianic

Of course judaism is not the center of the universe what Jesus was the key to was making possible the restoring of mankind and the Earth back to the original state

No prophesies in the Torah has anything to do with Jesus.

I didn't say that Judaism is the center of the earth, just that none of its scripture is in any way related to Jesus.

[Warrior4God]

Joh 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

These words were spoken by Jesus that God is Spirit.

Luk 24:39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.


These words were spoken by Jesus that he was not spirit after the ressurection.

[Warrior4God]

Man (Adam) caused mankind’s problems.

Romans 5:19 says that a man will have to undo those problems............

“For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.”

Some theologians teach that only God could pay for the sins of mankind, but the Bible clearly teaches that only a man could do it.

[ralittlefield]

Man (Adam) caused mankind’s problems.

Romans 5:19 says that a man will have to undo those problems............

“For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.”

Some theologians teach that only God could pay for the sins of mankind, but the Bible clearly teaches that only a man could do it.


Titus 1
3 and at his appointed season he brought his word to light through the preaching entrusted to me by the command of God our Savior,

Titus 2:10
so that in every way they will make the teaching about God our Savior attractive.


Titus 3:4

But when the kindness and love of God our Savior appeared,

[ralittlefield]

Joh 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

These words were spoken by Jesus that God is Spirit.

Luk 24:39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.


These words were spoken by Jesus that he was not spirit after the ressurection.

Phil 2


6 Who, being in very nature God,
did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,
7 but made himself nothing,
taking the very nature of a servant,
being made in human likeness.
8 And being found in appearance as a man,
he humbled himself
and became obedient to death—
even death on a cross!

[ralittlefield]

No prophesies in the Torah has anything to do with Jesus.

I didn't say that Judaism is the center of the earth, just that none of its scripture is in any way related to Jesus.

That is just your opinon.

Millions of people disagree with you.

[Warrior4God]

Phil 2


6 Who, being in very nature God,
did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,
7 but made himself nothing,
taking the very nature of a servant,
being made in human likeness.
8 And being found in appearance as a man,
he humbled himself
and became obedient to death—
even death on a cross!

I have adressed these verses many times but you have yet to adress the verses I posted.


WHY?


Why can't you adress these last few posts without using verses that have already been explained .............
and maybe you can adress why Jesus is not equal to God in any way by his own words.not one place does Jesus have equality with the Almighty God.


Not being disrespectful but it gets old when you can't show a defense so you try to turn it around and be on the offense.

I try to be very fair and deal with as many of your points that I can and just like the same courtesy,and ask that you give a response to what I post which I believe is proof of my view.



Like I said and posted God is Spirit and Jesus said so and also said he was not Spirit even after the ressurection.


In that light you need to see that Phil. 2 must be in your understanding to be misunderstood or there is a contradiction.

[Koushi Shinigami]

That is just your opinon.

Millions of people disagree with you.

I wonder if God agrees with him... :think:

[lwdc]

Where?

Show me where Jesus claimed being God or equal to God.*sigh*

How many times do we have to go over this?

John 8:58 Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.”
John 10:30 "I and the Father are one."In both cases, there were attempts to stone Him for blasphemy, because He said that He is God. Although many dispute the veracity of what He said about Himself, nobody disputes what He actually said.

[Angryamerican]

That is just your opinon.

Millions of people disagree with you.

And millions disagree with those millions, Whats the point?

[Warrior4God]

*sigh*

How many times do we have to go over this?


In both cases, there were attempts to stone Him for blasphemy, because He said that He is God. Although many dispute the veracity of what He said about Himself, nobody disputes what He actually said.

The phrase “I am” occurs many other times in the New Testament, and is often translated as

“I am he” or some equivalent (“I am he”—Mark 13:6; Luke 21:8; John 13:19; 18:5, 6 and 8.

“It is I”—Matt. 14:27; Mark 6:50; John 6:20. “I am the one I claim to be”—John 8:24 and 28.).

It is obvious that these translations are quite correct, and it is interesting that the phrase is translated as “I am” only in John 8:58.


If the phrase in John 8:58 were translated “I am he” or “I am the one,” like all the others, it would be easier to see that Christ was speaking of himself as the Messiah of God (as indeed he was), spoken of throughout the Old Testament.

[Angryamerican]

Phil 2


6 Who, being in very nature God,
did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,
7 but made himself nothing,
taking the very nature of a servant,
being made in human likeness.
8 And being found in appearance as a man,
he humbled himself
and became obedient to death—
even death on a cross!

Why did Jesus think that equality with God should not be grasped ?

This contradicts your belief because he didn't give any reason. This sounds like he was a heavenly being, not God ,you can draw your own conclusion.

[Warrior4God]

If God and Jesus are one and Christ and us are one then we see how simple it is to understand what Christ spoke.


Can't have it both ways as in one meaning for God and Christ and another for us and Christ.

One in purpose is what he meant.

By the way the greek word used according to E.W. Bullinger is hen and not heis which means one in essence for one in John 10:30.

[Angryamerican]

I have adressed these verses many times but you have yet to adress the verses I posted.


WHY?


Why can't you adress these last few posts without using verses that have already been explained .............
and maybe you can adress why Jesus is not equal to God in any way by his own words.not one place does Jesus have equality with the Almighty God.


Not being disrespectful but it gets old when you can't show a defense so you try to turn it around and be on the offense.

I try to be very fair and deal with as many of your points that I can and just like the same courtesy,and ask that you give a response to what I post which I believe is proof of my view.



Like I said and posted God is Spirit and Jesus said so and also said he was not Spirit even after the ressurection.


In that light you need to see that Phil. 2 must be in your understanding to be misunderstood or there is a contradiction.

Yes on the contradictions.

[lwdc]

The phrase “I am” occurs many other times in the New Testament, and is often translated as

“I am he” or some equivalent (“I am he”—Mark 13:6; Luke 21:8; John 13:19; 18:5, 6 and 8.

“It is I”—Matt. 14:27; Mark 6:50; John 6:20. “I am the one I claim to be”—John 8:24 and 28.).

It is obvious that these translations are quite correct, and it is interesting that the phrase is translated as “I am” only in John 8:58.


If the phrase in John 8:58 were translated “I am he” or “I am the one,” like all the others, it would be easier to see that Christ was speaking of himself as the Messiah of God (as indeed he was), spoken of throughout the Old Testament.John 8:58 is translated correctly. Jesus said He is God, and He invoked the sacred name. To Jews this is the utmost in blasphemy, for which He deserved to be stoned.

[Angryamerican]

*sigh*

How many times do we have to go over this?


In both cases, there were attempts to stone Him for blasphemy, because He said that He is God. Although many dispute the veracity of what He said about Himself, nobody disputes what He actually said.

Let me get this straight we are one like Jesus and God ?

Joh 17:11 And now I am in the world no longer, but these are in the world, and I come to You, Holy Father. Keep them in Your name, those whom You have given Me, so that they may be one as We are.

[ralittlefield]

I have adressed these verses many times but you have yet to adress the verses I posted.


WHY?


Why can't you adress these last few posts without using verses that have already been explained .............
and maybe you can adress why Jesus is not equal to God in any way by his own words.not one place does Jesus have equality with the Almighty God.


Not being disrespectful but it gets old when you can't show a defense so you try to turn it around and be on the offense.

I try to be very fair and deal with as many of your points that I can and just like the same courtesy,and ask that you give a response to what I post which I believe is proof of my view.



Like I said and posted God is Spirit and Jesus said so and also said he was not Spirit even after the ressurection.


In that light you need to see that Phil. 2 must be in your understanding to be misunderstood or there is a contradiction.

To the contrary.

I believe that it is you that misunderstand the clear language in Phil 2.

The passage in Phil clearly explains all the verses that you post concerning the humanity and servant position of Christ and is ministry on earth.

I have addressed the verses that you posted. I addressed them not with opinion, but by showing scripture that explains the verses that you posted.

You may disagree with the passage in Phil. and post info from websites to prove that they don't "really say what they say", but truth is truth whether you (or I) believe it or not.

[lwdc]

One in purpose is what he meant.Being one in purpose with HaShem is no reason to be stoned.

Jesus didn't do that: He said He is God.

[ralittlefield]

Why did Jesus think that equality with God should not be grasped ?

This contradicts your belief because he didn't give any reason. This sounds like he was a heavenly being, not God ,you can draw your own conclusion.

Grasped in the sense of held on to.

He was willing to give up equality with God, and take on the form of a man. He became a servant.

[lwdc]

Let me get this straight we are one like Jesus and God ?Yes. One body. But Christ is the Head, and there is only One Head to the body.

Joh 17:11 And now I am in the world no longer, but these are in the world, and I come to You, Holy Father. Keep them in Your name, those whom You have given Me, so that they may be one as We are.Yes.

You got it. Congratulations.

[ralittlefield]

And millions disagree with those millions, Whats the point?

The point is that Mike's believing it does not make it true. Mike can very well be wrong.

[Warrior4God]

John 8:58 is translated correctly. Jesus said He is God, and He invoked the sacred name. To Jews this is the utmost in blasphemy, for which He deserved to be stoned.

You are so not right and if you study it you will see that God never said he was I AM..................

While the Greek phrase in John does mean “I am,” ...........

the Hebrew phrase in Exodus actually means “to be” or “to become.”

In other words God is saying, “I will be what I will be.” Thus the “I am” in Exodus is actually a mistranslation of the Hebrew text, so the fact that Jesus said “I am” did not make him God.

[lwdc]

You are so not right and if you study it you will see that God never said he was I AM..................

While the Greek phrase in John does mean “I am,” ...........

the Hebrew phrase in Exodus actually means “to be” or “to become.”

In other words God is saying, “I will be what I will be.” Thus the “I am” in Exodus is actually a mistranslation of the Hebrew text, so the fact that Jesus said “I am” did not make him God.So I guess His accusers wanted to stone Him because they didn't like His looks, or maybe they just needed the exercise.

Uh huh. Yeah.

Whatever you say, pal.

[Angryamerican]

The point is that Mike's believing it does not make it true. Mike can very well be wrong.

And so can Christians.

[Warrior4God]

So I guess His accusers wanted to stone Him because they didn't like His looks, or maybe they just needed the exercise.

Uh huh. Yeah.

Whatever you say, pal.

Now don't go and get that way.

we can dothis cordially or i will back out beccause this thread has seen enough smart butt remarks.

I am not trying to make you mad ,I'm just showing what the truth is as I see it is from Gods Word.

You don't need to agree but at least I respect your view and have been pretty kind about it.


The truth is if you look into it you will see I am right about I AM in hebrew and if you study the usage in the nt for I am you will see that in John 8 I Am is the only place its translated that way.


Please don't think I am trying to be contary I if said anything to offend you I apologize.

[lwdc]

Now don't go and get that way.

we can dothis cordially or i will back out beccause this thread has seen enough smart butt remarks.

I am not trying to make you mad ,I'm just showing what the truth is as I see it is from Gods Word.

You don't need to agree but at least I respect your view and have been pretty kind about it.Yep.

[Angryamerican]

I wonder why Christians can't agree about who and what God is.

[nobamayomama]

I wonder why Christians can't agree about who and what God is.

In a word: Satan.:twisted: Seriously.

[nobamayomama]

What's also curious about these arguments is that the bible predicts them and pretty much labels them "useless".

Just stay to the "heart" of religion which is all about relationships, repentance, hope and an eternal destiny. That's it pretty much.

Jesus said "unless you become like one of these little ones, you will not enter the kingdom" - so rather than have useless arguments about the trinity or things a normal man cannot understand (says the Lord), focus on being more loving towards others and repent of your own sins.

[DispensationalJim]

HardHammer and ralittlefield made reference to some of these verses in Titus, but I did not see anyone from the "opposing" side comment on my previous post about that, so here is my post again:




==============================

• Titus 1:3 But hath in due times manifested his word through preaching, which is committed unto me according to the commandment of God our Saviour; 4 To Titus, mine own son after the common faith: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ our Saviour.
• Titus 2:10 Not purloining, but shewing all good fidelity; that they may adorn the doctrine of God our Saviour in all things. 13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
• Titus 3:4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared, 6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;

==============================

So we ask again, who is OUR SAVIOUR?

PAUL seems to use God and Jesus Christ INTERCHANGEABLY there, doesn't he?

==============================


And several have referred to this next marvelous passage, but I like to highlight certain portions, so please allow me to repeat Phil. 2 once again:

• Phil. 2:5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: 6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: 7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: 8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

============================

IMO, the MAIN POINT of that passage is that Jesus was NOT A MAN prior to His coming to earth (see John 1, etc.). Otherwise, why would He have to MAKE HIMSELF into the likeness of a man??? And who could MAKE HIMSELF into a man but God?

And, the obvious problem with the need for Jesus to make Himself into a man is that when He existed as God the Son, HE COULD NOT DIE! Therefore, He WILLINGLY came to earth to DIE FOR OUR SINS!

THANK YOU, LORD JESUS!

=============================

And please, folks, try not to say things like this: "If you would study that passage for yourself, you would see that I am right and you are wrong."

I have spent most of my life studying these issues and these verses, and I still see most of them the same way I saw them the first time I read them in my good old King James Bible.

So, be critical of the message, but not the messenger, please.

[Angryamerican]

HardHammer and ralittlefield made reference to some of these verses in Titus, but I did not see anyone from the "opposing" side comment on my previous post about that, so here is my post again:




And several have referred to this next marvelous passage, but I like to highlight certain portions, so please allow me to repeat Phil. 2 once again:

• Phil. 2:5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: 6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: 7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: 8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

============================

IMO, the MAIN POINT of that passage is that Jesus was NOT A MAN prior to His coming to earth (see John 1, etc.). Otherwise, why would He have to MAKE HIMSELF into the likeness of a man??? And who could MAKE HIMSELF into a man but God?

And, the obvious problem with the need for Jesus to make Himself into a man is that when He existed as God the Son, HE COULD NOT DIE! Therefore, He WILLINGLY came to earth to DIE FOR OUR SINS!

THANK YOU, LORD JESUS!

=============================

And please, folks, try not to say things like this: "If you would study that passage for yourself, you would see that I am right and you are wrong."

I have spent most of my life studying these issues and these verses, and I still see most of them the same way I saw them the first time I read them in my good old King James Bible.

So, be critical of the message, but not the messenger, please.

Angels have taken the form of men. So i ask you who was Christ before he came to the earth ?

And why wasn't this made known to the Jews that God was triune in nature ? After all God made himself known to the Jews by Gods own words.

Why will some people take God at his word only when his words support their belief ?

And they do the same with the words of Jesus, like when he said no man has ever seen God or that the father is greater then all or the father is greater then i.

[lucky]

Angels have taken the form of men. So i ask you who was Christ before he came to the earth ?

And why wasn't this made known to the Jews that God was triune in nature ? After all God made himself known to the Jews by Gods own words.

Why will some people take God at his word only when his words support their belief ?

And they do the same with the words of Jesus, like when he said no man has ever seen God or that the father is greater then all or the father is greater then i.

Your first statement shows that one must look at the Bible in a holistic way and interpret the literary genres according to their genre.

You're statement seems to imply that your taking his word and using it to support your beliefs.

An example would be your quoting the Scripture that Jesus say the father is greater than him. However, within the context of the whole Bible we might see Paul's writings as supporting this attitude. He wrote that Jesus being equal to God was not something to be grasped, but humbled himself and took on the nature of man.

[Angryamerican]

Your first statement shows that one must look at the Bible in a holistic way and interpret the literary genres according to their genre.

You're statement seems to imply that your taking his word and using it to support your beliefs.

An example would be your quoting the Scripture that Jesus say the father is greater than him. However, within the context of the whole Bible we might see Paul's writings as supporting this attitude. He wrote that Jesus being equal to God was not something to be grasped, but humbled himself and took on the nature of man.

My point is,that the nt is full of contradictions, and i'm not sure it is worthy of our trust as it being Gods word. my opinion of course.

The nt seems to support many views on who and what God is. All you have to do is read this whole thread.

The nt teaches that no man has ever seen God at anytime and that is supported by what was said in the ot. At anytime i think would cover whether God was a spirit or in the form of a man.

And if you disagree with that then we need an explanation to ,when does God stop being God.

[lucky]

My point is,that the nt is full of contradictions, and i'm not sure it is worthy of our trust as it being Gods word. my opinion of course.

The nt seems to support many views on who and what God is. All you have to do is read this whole thread.

The nt teaches that no man has ever seen God at anytime and that is supported by what was said in the ot. At anytime i think would cover whether God was a spirit or in the form of a man.

And if you disagree with that then we need an explanation when does God stop being God.


Do you read Scripture on the surface or do you attempt to understand Scripture within its historical context?

Your above statement seem to imply a lack of good hermeneutics in your biblical studies. I would suggest discovering the historical backdrop of second temple Judaism and see how these statements fit into the wider aspect of the NT. Think revised narratives of the Old Testament, great stuff!

[DRS]

HardHammer and ralittlefield made reference to some of these verses in Titus, but I did not see anyone from the "opposing" side comment on my previous post about that, so here is my post again:




And several have referred to this next marvelous passage, but I like to highlight certain portions, so please allow me to repeat Phil. 2 once again:

• Phil. 2:5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: 6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: 7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: 8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

============================

IMO, the MAIN POINT of that passage is that Jesus was NOT A MAN prior to His coming to earth (see John 1, etc.). Otherwise, why would He have to MAKE HIMSELF into the likeness of a man??? And who could MAKE HIMSELF into a man but God?

And, the obvious problem with the need for Jesus to make Himself into a man is that when He existed as God the Son, HE COULD NOT DIE! Therefore, He WILLINGLY came to earth to DIE FOR OUR SINS!

THANK YOU, LORD JESUS!

=============================

And please, folks, try not to say things like this: "If you would study that passage for yourself, you would see that I am right and you are wrong."

I have spent most of my life studying these issues and these verses, and I still see most of them the same way I saw them the first time I read them in my good old King James Bible.

So, be critical of the message, but not the messenger, please.

Again the title saviour is used on people in the OT

The bible is one giant book and is to be taken in context

All sort of prophecy and prefigurments throughout OT scriptures to help understand t was coming on the largeers stage in the NT

[Angryamerican]

Your first statement shows that one must look at the Bible in a holistic way and interpret the literary genres according to their genre.

You're statement seems to imply that your taking his word and using it to support your beliefs.

An example would be your quoting the Scripture that Jesus say the father is greater than him. However, within the context of the whole Bible we might see Paul's writings as supporting this attitude. He wrote that Jesus being equal to God was not something to be grasped, but humbled himself and took on the nature of man.

That is a contradiction that Jesus would say his father is greater then he, and paul says no Jesus is equal to the father.

[lucky]

That is a contradiction that Jesus would say his father is greater then he, and paul says no Jesus is equal to the father.

Or, they could be statements taken out of their historical context. Like so many do today in their home studies.

[Angryamerican]

Or, they could be statements taken out of their historical context. Like so many do today in their home studies.

How could that be Since paul came along shortly after Jesus ?

Paul was responsible for many writings of the nt, but he wasn't there when Jesus said that the father is greater then he. Maybe paul was wrong? That would explain the contradictions.

[lucky]

How could that be Since paul came along shortly after Jesus ?

Paul was responsible for many writings of the nt, but he wasn't there when Jesus said that the father is greater then he. Maybe paul was wrong? That would explain the contradictions.

Again, reread the NT within the context of its culture.

I refuse to do your homework for you nor argue with something you might know nothing about.

[DRS]

That is a contradiction that Jesus would say his father is greater then he, and paul says no Jesus is equal to the father.

what is said he did not try to grasp or seize equality with God

[Angryamerican]

Again, reread the NT within the context of its culture.

I refuse to do your homework for you nor argue with something you might know nothing about.

Trust me i have read and researched the nt and the times of Jesus, And it seems to me that the nt can't be trusted, in my opinion of course.

Not looking to argue, just giving you food for thought.

[lucky]

Trust me i have read and researched the nt and the times of Jesus, And it seems to me that the nt can't be trusted, in my opinion of course.

Not looking to argue, just giving you food for thought.

Really, what was the worldview of the Jewish people during that time? Or, better yet how did they understand themes within their culture?

[Angryamerican]

Really, what was the worldview of the Jewish people during that time? Or, better yet how did they understand themes within their culture?

So now you ask me to do your homework for you ?

I suggest you read this thread, i have put many thoughts on the issue in this thread.

How do you explain Jews now holding the same views they did then ?

I am not Jewish so you would probably have a better understanding of Jewish culture then i . But what does that have to do with my comments to you ?

[DRS]

Trust me i have read and researched the nt and the times of Jesus, And it seems to me that the nt can't be trusted, in my opinion of course.

Not looking to argue, just giving you food for thought.

How is jewish writing and understandings years after the writing if the NT more trust worthy than the NT

Or why re the jews who rejected Jesus to be more trusted in understanding then the ones who rejected him as sent by God

[Angryamerican]

How is jewish writing and understandings years after the writing if the NT more trust worthy than the NT

Or why re the jews who rejected Jesus to be more trusted in understanding then the ones who rejected him as sent by God

Because of the lack of contradictions.;)

[Angryamerican]

How is jewish writing and understandings years after the writing if the NT more trust worthy than the NT

Or why re the jews who rejected Jesus to be more trusted in understanding then the ones who rejected him as sent by God

So are you suggesting the Jews purposely changed the writings to fit their views and reject the messiah? I smell a conspiracy debate coming.

[DRS]

Because of the lack of contradictions.;)

There are no contradictn in fact Paul explains things quite nicely using the scripture from the OT, Revelation shows prophecies being fulfilled

[DRS]

So are you suggesting the Jews purposely changed the writings to fit their views and reject the messiah? I smell a conspiracy debate coming.

It has been noted by many scholars that Rashi changes his writings after the crusades started

There are quotes from the Talmud that show scriptures now denounced as non messianic were previously viewed as such

As for alterations in tranlsation the only jewish site that I see do this and insert their idea is the site linked to by cmike and others here most often

[Angryamerican]

There are no contradictn in fact Paul explains things quite nicely using the scripture from the OT, Revelation shows prophecies being fulfilled

In your opinion. But if that is true, how come Christians are so divided about God and Christ ?

[Angryamerican]

It has been noted by many scholars that Rashi changes his writings after the crusades started

There are quotes from the Talmud that show scriptures now denounced as non messianic were previously viewed as such

As for alterations in tranlsation the only jewish site that I see do this and insert their idea is the site linked to by cmike and others here most often

Cmike and others have already gone over this with you. Are you expecting a different response ?

Is there something wrong with Jewish commentary ?

We have already discussed the unfulfilled prophecies and why Jesus was rejected as the messiah. So now what ?

[DRS]

Cmike and others have already gone over this with you. Are you expecting a different response ?

Is there something wrong with Jewish commentary ?

We have already discussed the unfulfilled prophecies and why Jesus was rejected as the messiah. So now what ?

what CMike and others have done is defended the translation in a manner no different than DJim defending KJV as the most reliable tranlsation

The jewish commentary keeps changing and does contradicts the inspired bible writers

What is going on is the same thing that happened before the complaining against Jesus is not different then the complaining against Moses when in the wilderness, how did that work out for the jews then

History has a funny way of repeating itself

[DispensationalJim]

Angels have taken the form of men. So i ask you who was Christ before he came to the earth ?

And why wasn't this made known to the Jews that God was triune in nature ? After all God made himself known to the Jews by Gods own words.

Why will some people take God at his word only when his words support their belief ?

And they do the same with the words of Jesus, like when he said no man has ever seen God or that the father is greater then all or the father is greater then i.

And your evidence for angels making themselves into men is...???

Jesus was THE CREATOR OF EVERYTHING, in other words, God the Son.

* John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
• Eph. 3:9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:
• Col. 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
• Heb. 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; ... 8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
• Rev. 4:11 Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.


I take God at His Word from Genesis to The Revelation. Do you? If not, why not?

No man hath seen God? How about Adam? Was Adam not a man? Did he not see God?

God the Father naturally has authority over God the Son, especially while Jesus was MADE IN THE FORM OF A MAN.

[Angryamerican]

And your evidence for angels making themselves into men is...???

Jesus was THE CREATOR OF EVERYTHING, in other words, God the Son.

* John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
• Eph. 3:9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:
• Col. 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
• Heb. 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; ... 8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
• Rev. 4:11 Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.


I take God at His Word from Genesis to The Revelation. Do you? If not, why not?

No man hath seen God? How about Adam? Was Adam not a man? Did he not see God?

God the Father naturally has authority over God the Son, especially while Jesus was MADE IN THE FORM OF A MAN.

How bout sodom ?

Gen 19:1 And there came two angels to Sodom at evening. And Lot sat in the gate of Sodom. And Lot rose up to meet them when he saw them. And he bowed himself with his face toward the ground,
Gen 19:2 and said, Behold now, my lords, please turn into your servant's house and stay all night, and wash your feet, and you shall rise up early and go your way. And they said, No, but we will stay in the street.
Gen 19:3 But he urgently pressed on them, and they turned in to him and entered into his house. And he made them a feast, and baked unleavened bread, and they ate.
Gen 19:4 But before they lay down, the men of the city, the men of Sodom, surrounded the house, both old and young, all the people from every quarter.
Gen 19:5 And they called to Lot, and said to him, Where are the men which came in to you this night? Bring them out to us, that we may know them.

[Angryamerican]

And your evidence for angels making themselves into men is...???

Jesus was THE CREATOR OF EVERYTHING, in other words, God the Son.

* John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
• Eph. 3:9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:
• Col. 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
• Heb. 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; ... 8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
• Rev. 4:11 Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.


I take God at His Word from Genesis to The Revelation. Do you? If not, why not?

No man hath seen God? How about Adam? Was Adam not a man? Did he not see God?

God the Father naturally has authority over God the Son, especially while Jesus was MADE IN THE FORM OF A MAN.

No man has seen God you do believe his words don't you ?

Exo 33:20 And He said, You cannot see My face. For there no man can see Me and live.

There are ways to see God without actually seeing God.

[drmilo]

Where?

Show me where Jesus claimed being God or equal to God.

You've been shown numerous times in this thread.

Everytime, you say trinitarians are "misinterpreting" or "misunderstanding." We claim you are misinterpreting or misunderstanding. Just because you believe your understanding to be correct, does not make it so. We've shown many times where Jesus claimed equality with God, from "I and the Father are one" to "Before Abraham was, I am" among others. Each time you say he did not say what he clearly said -- that he meant something else. But just because you make that claim does not mean it is true. And just because I claim something else doesn't make it true. That's where faith comes in -- my faith leads me in a different direction than yours.

[DispensationalJim]

How bout sodom ?

Gen 19:1 And there came two angels to Sodom at evening. And Lot sat in the gate of Sodom. And Lot rose up to meet them when he saw them. And he bowed himself with his face toward the ground,
Gen 19:2 and said, Behold now, my lords, please turn into your servant's house and stay all night, and wash your feet, and you shall rise up early and go your way. And they said, No, but we will stay in the street.
Gen 19:3 But he urgently pressed on them, and they turned in to him and entered into his house. And he made them a feast, and baked unleavened bread, and they ate.
Gen 19:4 But before they lay down, the men of the city, the men of Sodom, surrounded the house, both old and young, all the people from every quarter.
Gen 19:5 And they called to Lot, and said to him, Where are the men which came in to you this night? Bring them out to us, that we may know them.

So, were they angels or were they men?

The author of Genesis (Moses and/or God) said they were angels, but they "appeared' to Lot to be men. So which were they?

When Jesus was in His resurrected body, did people recognize Him?

Maybe you should find another example that works a little better for your case.

[DispensationalJim]

No man has seen God you do believe his words don't you ?

Exo 33:20 And He said, You cannot see My face. For there no man can see Me and live.

There are ways to see God without actually seeing God.

Would you mind explaining that, please?

[Angryamerican]

So, were they angels or were they men?

The author of Genesis (Moses and/or God) said they were angels, but they "appeared' to Lot to be men. So which were they?

When Jesus was in His resurrected body, did people recognize Him?

Maybe you should find another example that works a little better for your case.

How bout this ? I don't believe in coincidences so here you go twice.

Gen 6:2 the sons of God saw the daughters of men, that they were good. And they took wives for themselves from all whom they chose.

Gen 6:4 There were giants in the earth in those days. And also after that, when the sons of God came in to the daughters of men, and they bore to them, they were mighty men who existed of old, men of renown.

And how would you explain them being able to have wives and reproduce with women ?

[Angryamerican]

Would you mind explaining that, please?

You may see God in visions, You may see God in dreams, You may see God as a fiery bush, You may see God in descriptions, But we will never see God when we are human.

And in everyone of those cases God is still God. So how can Jesus be God because his face has been seen by men.

Exo 33:20 And He said, You cannot see My face. For there no man can see Me and live.

[Angryamerican]

So, were they angels or were they men?

The author of Genesis (Moses and/or God) said they were angels, but they "appeared' to Lot to be men. So which were they?

When Jesus was in His resurrected body, did people recognize Him?

Maybe you should find another example that works a little better for your case.

As i said they were angels that took on the form of a man.

Lot knew they were Angels but the people thought they were men . Seems to me they took on the form of a man.

[Reeder]

So, were they angels or were they men?

The author of Genesis (Moses and/or God) said they were angels, but they "appeared' to Lot to be men. So which were they?

When Jesus was in His resurrected body, did people recognize Him?

Maybe you should find another example that works a little better for your case.

Angels are men. Topic "CLOSED." :razz:

[Reeder]

No man has seen God you do believe his words don't you ?

Exo 33:20 And He said, You cannot see My face. For there no man can see Me and live.

There are ways to see God without actually seeing God.

IMHO, that just shows how certain truths have been taken from the Bible. If you notice in verse 11, it says:

11 And the Lord spake unto Moses face to face, as a man speaketh unto his friend.


If no man has seen God and lived, then how/why did Moses speak to God "face to face, as a man speaketh unto his friend?"


Now, I already understand that you don't accept Joseph Smith as a true Prophet.....but I do :mrgreen:, and I believe he was inspired to properly write what Moses originally said:



20 And he said unto Moses, Thou canst not see my face at this time, lest mine anger be kindled against thee also, and I destroy thee, and thy people; for there shall no man among them see me at this time, and live, for they are exceeding sinful. And no sinful man hath at any time, neither shall there be any sinful man at any time, that shall see my face and live.

• • •

23 And I will take away mine hand, and thou shalt see my back parts: but my face shall not be seen as at other times; for I am angry with my people Israel.




No "sinful man" hath at any time seen God's face and lived. Those who are repentant and penitent are worthy to undergo a change to their bodies (transfiguration), so that they may stand in the presence of God.

[Angryamerican]

IMHO, that just shows how certain truths have been taken from the Bible. If you notice in verse 11, it says:

11 And the Lord spake unto Moses face to face, as a man speaketh unto his friend.


If no man has seen God and lived, then how/why did Moses speak to God "face to face, as a man speaketh unto his friend?"


Now, I already understand that you don't accept Joseph Smith as a true Prophet.....but I do :mrgreen:, and I believe he was inspired to properly write what Moses originally said:



20 And he said unto Moses, Thou canst not see my face at this time, lest mine anger be kindled against thee also, and I destroy thee, and thy people; for there shall no man among them see me at this time, and live, for they are exceeding sinful. And no sinful man hath at any time, neither shall there be any sinful man at any time, that shall see my face and live.

• • •

23 And I will take away mine hand, and thou shalt see my back parts: but my face shall not be seen as at other times; for I am angry with my people Israel.




No "sinful man" hath at any time seen God's face and lived. Those who are repentant and penitent are worthy to undergo a change to their bodies (transfiguration), so that they may stand in the presence of God.

That makes sense to me, and i feel that it could because we are so sinful.

That is why i have a problem with satan being evil and sinful, but yet God still allowed him in heaven and even in Gods presence.

[Warrior4God]

You've been shown numerous times in this thread.

Everytime, you say trinitarians are "misinterpreting" or "misunderstanding." We claim you are misinterpreting or misunderstanding. Just because you believe your understanding to be correct, does not make it so. We've shown many times where Jesus claimed equality with God, from "I and the Father are one" to "Before Abraham was, I am" among others. Each time you say he did not say what he clearly said -- that he meant something else. But just because you make that claim does not mean it is true. And just because I claim something else doesn't make it true. That's where faith comes in -- my faith leads me in a different direction than yours.

I asked ...............


"Show me where Jesus claimed being God or equal to God."


You reply with the same 2 verses I just dealt with so I guess other then those you have no foundation for your view that Jesus is equal to God,and much less saying he was God.

[ralittlefield]

I asked ...............


"Show me where Jesus claimed being God or equal to God."


You reply with the same 2 verses I just dealt with so I guess other then those you have no foundation for your view that Jesus is equal to God,and much less saying he was God.

Jesus was noted for teaching in parables and requiring His students to think.

Seldom did He make clear statements.

Paul and John both were inspired by the Holy Spirit to record that Jesus is God.

Thomas called Him "My Lord and my God".

If you chose to reject the teachings of John and Paul, and the clear statement of Thomas, then so be it.

[DispensationalJim]

How bout this ? I don't believe in coincidences so here you go twice.

Gen 6:2 the sons of God saw the daughters of men, that they were good. And they took wives for themselves from all whom they chose.

Gen 6:4 There were giants in the earth in those days. And also after that, when the sons of God came in to the daughters of men, and they bore to them, they were mighty men who existed of old, men of renown.

And how would you explain them being able to have wives and reproduce with women ?

Are you sure, AA, that the "sons of God" were angels?

John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

[DispensationalJim]

You may see God in visions, You may see God in dreams, You may see God as a fiery bush, You may see God in descriptions, But we will never see God when we are human.

And in everyone of those cases God is still God. So how can Jesus be God because his face has been seen by men.

Exo 33:20 And He said, You cannot see My face. For there no man can see Me and live.

You keep forgetting that JESUS MADE HIMSELF INTO A MAN! When the people saw Him on the earth, He was A MAN! Even after He received His resurrected body, He was still a man.

[DispensationalJim]

As i said they were angels that took on the form of a man.

Lot knew they were Angels but the people thought they were men . Seems to me they took on the form of a man.

Please show some sort of evidence that Lot knew they were angels.

[DispensationalJim]

Again the title saviour is used on people in the OT

The bible is one giant book and is to be taken in context

All sort of prophecy and prefigurments throughout OT scriptures to help understand t was coming on the largeers stage in the NT

About the title of "saviour," DRS... I just checked every use of the word "saviour" in my Accordance Bible program. Out of the 37 times it appears in the whole Bible, I saw only two instances where it was not speaking of God as THE Saviour or OUR Saviour.

But, the verses I quoted from Titus speak ONLY of OUR SAVIOUR. Here they are again:



• Titus 1:3 But hath in due times manifested his word through preaching, which is committed unto me according to the commandment of God our Saviour; 4 To Titus, mine own son after the common faith: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ our Saviour.
• Titus 2:10 Not purloining, but shewing all good fidelity; that they may adorn the doctrine of God our Saviour in all things. 13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
• Titus 3:4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared, 6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;



Please note, DRS, that three (3) separate times, Paul calls God OUR SAVIOUR and each time, He also calls Jesus Christ OUR SAVIOUR.

How can you "get around" that FACT??

It seems quite simple to me...

JESUS CHRIST IS GOD!!