Should You Believe In The Trinity?

[Angryamerican]

If the KJV dictionary and the original Greek definitions are different..which one do you think we should go with? Strange though how you left off the very 1st entry in the Authorized Version (KJV) Translation Count, which is simply: AV (http://www.blueletterbible.org/help/av.html) - God (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/words.pl?show_strongs=yes&word=God*+2316) 1320. I'm sure it was simple oversight.


Well sense scholars don't seem to agree on the proper translation. And you are gonna agree with those that say it say's what you want. I am gonna do the same. But we can go over the rest of the scriptures.

That exsposes which scholars are right and which ones are wrong.

[Fire Watch]

Of God means he is God?

You are reaching.
It isnt MY definition...it's the very 1st entry in the Authorized Version (KJV) Translation Count, which is simply: AV (http://www.blueletterbible.org/help/av.html) - God (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/words.pl?show_strongs=yes&word=God*+2316) 1320. The version you used to try and prove your point in the post immediately preceeding mine.:))

[Angryamerican]

You just contradicted yourself. Is Jesus standing your first post or is He sitting your answer on this post? This is what happens when we read things into scripture that does not exist. We create Biblical contradictions.

You still did not answer my question. Would it be understandable to say in the midst based on the scenario I posed?

Are you for real?

[HisServant]

Are you for real?

I said: Just a question since we are not going to agree. If you sat on a throne and you had a son and he sat on your lap. Would I be correct to say AngryAmerican sat on the throne and his son was in the midst of the throne.
Now I am not trying to be absolutely technical about it. But could you at least see that the description could fit the event.

You said:
Well God is sitting and Jesus was standing. There is no other way for me to look at that.

But there was no mention of Jesus sitting at all. We finally have them both in the same place doing different things it shows there is two.

Then I said :First you did not answer my question. I notice when you wish not to agree with something you ignore it.

Second show me where the verse says God is sitting and Jesus is standing. Please be specific and don't make it up. Show me in the verse where it says the Lamb was standing. Thank you.

Your Answer:
But it does say, Jesus when he sits, he sits at the right hand of God.


So my point is, is he standing as you first posted or sitting which was your second post. And in each case you ignored my question to try and put the term in the midst in perspective.

[Angryamerican]

It isnt MY definition...it's the very 1st entry in the Authorized Version (KJV) Translation Count, which is simply: AV (http://www.blueletterbible.org/help/av.html) - God (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/words.pl?show_strongs=yes&word=God*+2316) 1320. The version you used to try and prove your point in the post immediately preceeding mine.:))

The KJV dictionary that i have does not insinuate that it means God but from God. And all the other things i wrote.

[Fire Watch]

The KJV dictionary that i have does not insinuate that it means God but from God. And all the other things i wrote.
Well the version I quoted and supplied a link to shows differently, and also displays the original greek.

[matt1618]

Ok. If you see the post where you agreed with Angryamerican, he makes the case that Jesus, the father and the Holy Spirit is God Almighty and you agreed with him. That is the reason with my questioning you. You may want to reanswer his post. Because what you said earlier is different from what you said you agree with in his post.

I agree that they are different and distinct and yet one. God the Father, is God Almighty always. Then God the Son is Jesus. And God the Holy Spirit. All coequal coeternal coexistant.

There may be some misunderstanding there. Well, he was saying that the Trinity teaching was that God the Father, God the Holy Spirit, and God the Son, are God. I interpreted that in the Trinitarian sense. And they are coeternal. That is what I was agreeing with. They are all God, though they are distinct persons. I wasn't agreeing with him that they are one person, or that Jesus is the Father and Jesus is the Holy Spirit, that is why I gave the Scriptures that show them relating to each other as distinct persons. I hope that clears up what I meant at least.

[Angryamerican]

I said: Just a question since we are not going to agree. If you sat on a throne and you had a son and he sat on your lap. Would I be correct to say AngryAmerican sat on the throne and his son was in the midst of the throne.
Now I am not trying to be absolutely technical about it. But could you at least see that the description could fit the event.

You said:
Well God is sitting and Jesus was standing. There is no other way for me to look at that.

But there was no mention of Jesus sitting at all. We finally have them both in the same place doing different things it shows there is two.

Then I said :First you did not answer my question. I notice when you wish not to agree with something you ignore it.

Second show me where the verse says God is sitting and Jesus is standing. Please be specific and don't make it up. Show me in the verse where it says the Lamb was standing. Thank you.

Your Answer:
But it does say, Jesus when he sits, he sits at the right hand of God.


So my point is, is he standing as you first posted or sitting which was your second post. And in each case you ignored my question to try and put the term in the midst in perspective.

The scenario you gave is not in play end of scenario. If you ask someone to sit next to you will they sit in your lap?

Bottomline you and reco in my opinion need to be more careful, about the road you are going down. You are both allowing to much influence, From man to interpet God and not God himself. I am sure that you both know the influence of Satan in religion. He is turning himself in to an angel of light and misleading many.With all the religions out there it seems pretty clear that he is using religion.

We all need to be careful that doesn't happen. I feel there is a reason why he is warning us of to stay away from doctrines of men . I feel many are at work right now.

Mat 15:9 But in vain they worship Me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men."

Col 2:22 which things are all for corruption in the using, according to the commands and doctrines of men?

So with these verses don't you think it should be checked out for yourself?

Rom 12:2 And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, in order to prove by you what is that good and pleasing and perfect will of God

Well i will be going out of town, i hope everyone in this thread finds the answers they are looking for. It's been real and at times fun. I'll be out of town a few weeks and this thread will probably done by the time i return. So goodluck and God bless you all.

[Angryamerican]

This is the chapter that convinced me who God is and Christ is. i hope you take the time to read the greatest teaching Christ did on Earth. And truly listen to the gosple.

Joh 5:1 After this there was a feast of the Jews, and Jesus went up to Jerusalem.
Joh 5:2 Now there is a pool at the Sheep Gate at Jerusalem, which is called in Hebrew Bethesda, having five porches.
Joh 5:3 In these lay a great multitude of those who were sick, of blind, lame, withered, waiting for the moving of the water.
Joh 5:4 For an angel went down at a certain time into the pool and troubled the water. Then whoever first stepped in after the troubling of the water was made whole of whatever disease he had.
Joh 5:5 And a certain man was there, who had an infirmity thirty-eight years.
Joh 5:6 When Jesus saw him lying, and knowing that he had spent much time, He said to him, Do you desire to be made whole?
Joh 5:7 The infirm man answered Him, Sir, when the water is troubled, I have no one to put me into the pool. But while I am coming, another steps down before me.
Joh 5:8 Jesus says to him, Rise, take up your bed and walk.
Joh 5:9 And immediately the man was made whole and took up his bed and walked. And it was a sabbath on that day.
Joh 5:10 Therefore the Jews said to him who had been healed, It is the sabbath. It is not lawful for you to take up the bed.
Joh 5:11 He answered them, He who made me whole said to me, Take up your bed and walk.
Joh 5:12 Then they asked him, Who is the man who said to you, Take up your bed and walk?
Joh 5:13 And he did not know Him who had cured him, for Jesus had moved away, a crowd being in the place.
Joh 5:14 Afterward Jesus found him in the temple and said to him, Behold, you are made whole. Sin no more lest a worse thing come to you.
Joh 5:15 The man departed and told the Jews that it was Jesus who had made him whole.
Joh 5:16 And therefore the Jews persecuted Jesus and sought to kill Him, because He had done these things on the sabbath day.
Joh 5:17 But Jesus answered them, My Father works until now, and I work.
Joh 5:18 Then, because of this, the Jews sought the more to kill Him, because He not only had broken the sabbath, but also said that God was His father, making Himself equal with God.
Joh 5:19 Then Jesus answered and said to them, Truly, truly, I say to you, The Son can do nothing of Himself but what He sees the Father do. For whatever things He does, these also the Son does likewise.
Joh 5:20 For the Father loves the Son and shows Him all the things that He Himself does. And He will show Him greater works than these, so that you may marvel.
Joh 5:21 For as the Father raises the dead and makes alive, even so the Son of Man makes alive whomever He wills.
Joh 5:22 For the Father judges no man, but has committed all judgment to the Son,
Joh 5:23 so that all should honor the Son, even as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him.
Joh 5:24 Truly, truly, I say to you, He who hears My Word and believes on Him who sent Me has everlasting life and shall not come into condemnation, but has passed from death to life.
Joh 5:25 Truly, truly, I say to you, The hour is coming and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God, and they who hear shall live.
Joh 5:26 For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has given to the Son to have life within Himself,
Joh 5:27 and has given Him authority to execute judgment also, because He is the Son of Man.
Joh 5:28 Do not marvel at this, for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves shall hear His voice,
Joh 5:29 and shall come forth, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have practiced evil to the resurrection of condemnation.
Joh 5:30 I can do nothing of My own self. As I hear, I judge, and My judgment is just, because I do not seek My own will, but the will of the Father who has sent Me.
Joh 5:31 If I bear witness of Myself, My witness is not true.
Joh 5:32 There is another who bears witness of Me, and I know that the witness which He witnesses of Me is true.
Joh 5:33 You sent to John, and he bore witness to the truth.
Joh 5:34 But I do not receive testimony from man, but these things I say so that you might be saved.
Joh 5:35 He was a burning and shining light, and you were willing for a time to rejoice in his light.
Joh 5:36 But I have greater witness than that of John, for the works which the Father has given Me that I should finish them, the works which I do themselves witness of Me, that the Father has sent Me.
Joh 5:37 And He sending Me, the Father Himself, has borne witness of Me. Neither have you heard His voice at any time nor seen His shape.
Joh 5:38 And you do not have His Word abiding in you, for you do not believe Him whom He has sent.
Joh 5:39 You search the Scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life. And they are the ones witnessing of Me,
Joh 5:40 and you will not come to Me that you might have life.
Joh 5:41 I do not receive honor from men.
Joh 5:42 But I know you, that you do not have the love of God in you.
Joh 5:43 I have come in My Father's name, and you do not receive Me. If another shall come in his own name, him you will receive.
Joh 5:44 How can you believe, you who receive honor from one another and do not seek the honor that comes from God only?
Joh 5:45 Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father; there is one who accuses you, Moses, in whom you trust.
Joh 5:46 For if you had believed Moses, you would have believed Me, for he wrote of Me.
Joh 5:47 But if you do not believe his writings, how shall you believe My Words?

[HisServant]

There may be some misunderstanding there. Well, he was saying that the Trinity teaching was that God the Father, God the Holy Spirit, and God the Son, are God. I interpreted that in the Trinitarian sense. And they are coeternal. That is what I was agreeing with. They are all God, though they are distinct persons. I wasn't agreeing with him that they are one person, or that Jesus is the Father and Jesus is the Holy Spirit, that is why I gave the Scriptures that show them relating to each other as distinct persons. I hope that clears up what I meant at least.

I thought that was your view. But if you go back to his post he said Jesus is God almighty and you agreed.

[DRS]

But one of the favored verses by those that believe as you do is John 1:18 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Jhn/Jhn001.html#18)
No man hath seen God at any time;


So which is it..who did John the Revelator see? How about Stephen? Either God has a body and has been seen by men, or he is a spirit, has no body, and has not been seen.

Niether man saw God, Stephen saw Jesus at the right hand of God's glory.

[HisServant]

The scenario you gave is not in play end of scenario. If you ask someone to sit next to you will they sit in your lap?

Bottomline you and reco in my opinion need to be more careful, about the road you are going down. You are both allowing to much influence, From man to interpet God and not God himself. I am sure that you both know the influence of Satan in religion. He is turning himself in to an angel of light and misleading many.With all the religions out there it seems pretty clear that he is using religion.

We all need to be careful that doesn't happen. I feel there is a reason why he is warning us of to stay away from doctrines of men . I feel many are at work right now.

Mat 15:9 But in vain they worship Me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men."

Col 2:22 which things are all for corruption in the using, according to the commands and doctrines of men?

So with these verses don't you think it should be checked out for yourself?

Rom 12:2 And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, in order to prove by you what is that good and pleasing and perfect will of God

Well i will be going out of town, i hope everyone in this thread finds the answers they are looking for. It's been real and at times fun. I'll be out of town a few weeks and this thread will probably done by. So goodluck and God bless you all.

Sir I asked a simple question based on a story I made up. You could not even answer a simple story. So don't lecture me or Rick on anything you have to say if you are not at least willing to follow our point. You don't have to agree with it but at least most people would be willing to listen before rushing to judgement.

[Angryamerican]

Sir I asked a simple question based on a story I made up. You could not even answer a simple story. So don't lecture me or Rick on anything you have to say if you are not at least willing to follow our point. You don't have to agree with it but at least most people would be willing to listen before rushing to judgement.

I didn't intend to lecture sorry, I just gave my opinion, Take it for what it's worth.

Have a great day.

Truitt Helms

[HisServant]

I didn't intend to lecture sorry, I just gave my opinion, Take it for what it's worth.

Have a great day.

Truitt Helms

Have a great day.

[matt1618]

So in the beginning God created himself?Col 1:15 who is the image of the invisible God, the First-born of all creation.
Rev 3:14 And to the angel of the church of the Laodicea write: The Amen, the faithful and true Witness, the Head of the creation of God, says these things:

Now with Christ being created he can't be God Almighty.

Well, you are asking based on the person's you are responding to believing that Jesus and the Father are the same person. As a Trinitarian, that is not an issue as we agree that they are different person. However, because he is the First born of all creation, does not mean that he is a created being. First born doesn't mean first created being. The word protokos means 'preeminence, chief,'. Nothing about being a first creation. David is called the 'first-born', in Psalm 89:27. Even though he was the last one born in Jesse's family. JDavid is the firstborn because he was the preeminent position God placed him. Isaac was called the firstborn even though Ismael was born first. Isaac was preeminent. Jesus is preeminent, not first born.

If Paul wanted to call Christ first created, Jesus would have been called protoktisis (first created), not protokos, first born, which he actually called him.
Also, take a look at Colossian 1:16-17
16 for in him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or authorities--all things were created through him and for him. 17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.

Christ is the creator of the whole universe of things. Thus, he is not a created being. He is the sustainer of all things, and holds all things together. That is the position of God.

Now, in reference to Rev. 3:14 the word 'arche' though it can mean beginning also has the meaning 'one who begins, first cause'. He is the first cause of God's creation, see Col. 1:16, John 1:3, Heb. 1:2. Also, the word Arche is used of God the Father in Rev. 1:8, 21:6, 22:13. Does that mean God the Father had a created beginning?

[rsuhls]

Modalism says that there is only one person, who will have 3 manifestations. In other words the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit are the same person. The Trinity says that the Father, Son & Holy Spirit, though one being, are 3 persons, who have a relationship with each other.

So one says they are one being yet threee people; the website says they are three faces of the same God....I don't think you guys can agree on what the trinity is and yet you expect people that don't except it to somehow understand it?

I believe that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost are three beings, sperate beings, Three sperate beings.

Seems to me if you look at the Baptism of Jesus were the Son was on earth, the Holy Ghost deecended from heaven and God the Father spoke from Heaven all that the same time you would come the conclusion that they are three sperate beings.

But that is just me.

God Bless

[Ron Jon]

tell me what is the differnce between Christian Voter saying that the trinity saying there is only one being, 3 in 1 and your website saying, and I quote, "In Christianity (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianity), Sabellianism (also known as modalism or modal monarchism) is the nontrinitarian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nontrinitarian) belief that the Heavenly Father, Resurrected Son and Holy Spirit are different modes or aspects of one God (for us only), rather than three distinct persons (in Himself). God was said to have three "faces" or "masks" (Grk. prosopa)?"

Seems like your Web site used more words to say exactly what Christian Voter said.This has probably already been explained to you since I'm a little late in responding but here goes:

The Christian doctrine of the Trinity simply stated is this: Within the Being of the one true God exist three eternal persons (Father, Son & Holy Spirit). Each person within this Triune Being relates to each other as a different and distinct person yet at the same time exist as one divine and holy being.

This, of course, is entirely different from saying God is only one person and that he wears different hats or plays different roles or "modes" of existence. Modelism is not the Trinity and the Trinity is not Modelism. What Christian Voter described was not the Christian doctrine of the Trinity.

[Ron Jon]

I am neither a Modelist or a believer in Sabellianism.

Modalism rightly rejected an eternal and personal distinction in God's essence as does Oneness theology, but wrongly ignored the temporal distinction of existence between the Father and Son that arose in the incarnation because of the addition of humanity to God's previously unmitigated existence as exclusive deity.

I admit though that historically speaking Oneness theology has tended to mimic Modalism's explanation of Father and Son as being mere nominal devices to refer to the same person of God, seeing no real distinction between the terms. This in turn has caused Oneness believers to use "Father" and "Son" as synonymous equivalents, exchanging one appellation for the other, and thus eliminating any real referential distinction between Father and Son. The reason for such a practice is typically the fear of violating the strict monotheism of Scripture. Such caution is well founded, but it has caused some Oneness believers to adopt a hermeneutic which denies any real distinction between Father and Son, and thus ignores or explains away the hundreds of passages that make such a distinction. The fault does not lie in the caution to protect God's oneness, but in the fact that some feel the need to explain away the Biblical distinctions to protect monotheism rather than explain why the distinctions exist.

A Chalcedonian Christology is central to my theology/Christology, as it should be to anyone’s as far as I am concerned. Only a Chalcedonian understanding of Christ, coupled with a proper understanding of the limitation of the exercising of Christ's deity (Phil 2:5-11) can explain the Biblical presentation of Jesus Christ as being fully God and a genuine human being simultaneously from conception, and His inferiority to the Father, all the while maintaining Biblical monotheism. All other attempts at explaining the Biblical data are doomed to failure.

I am a thoroughgoing Oneness believer, placing no distinctions of personality in the Godhead, and yet I can hold to a Chalcedonian Christology that unites Christ's two natures into one inseparable person. What makes my understanding opposed to the Trinitarian understanding is that they say the second Person became a man, while Oneness believers maintain that the uni-personal God, the Father, became a man, known to us as Jesus Christ, the Son of God.

The fundamental difference between the Oneness concept of God, and the Trinitarian concept is where the Biblical distinctions are placed. Trinitarians place an eternal distinction in person-hood between the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost. Oneness maintains that there is no distinction of personality in the Godhead.

I do not advocate Sabellianism in the least sense. There are no successive revelations of God, and neither is Jesus Christ only a temporary existence of God. The incarnation is permanent. Jesus, in His flesh, is in heaven right now right alongside of the Father.Thank you for explaining your beliefs. Hopefully the Mormons (Christian Voter, rsuhls, etc) will now understand the difference between your belief about God and our (Trinitarian) belief so as to avoid further confusion.

[Ron Jon]

So one says they are one being yet threee people; the website says they are three faces of the same God....I don't think you guys can agree on what the trinity is and yet you expect people that don't except it to somehow understand it?

I believe that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost are three beings, sperate beings, Three sperate beings.

Seems to me if you look at the Baptism of Jesus were the Son was on earth, the Holy Ghost deecended from heaven and God the Father spoke from Heaven all that the same time you would come the conclusion that they are three sperate beings.

But that is just me.

God BlessThe website was discussing modelism NOT the Trinity. It really isn't as hard as you are making it sound.

Here are the belief systems

1 God (in Being) = 1 Person (Judaism, Oneness Pentacostals, JW's, Muslims)
1 God (in Being) = 3 Persons (Trinitarians, mainly Catholics, Protestants,)
1 God (in purpose) = 3 Beings (Mormons)

[Christian Voter]

What Christian Voter described was not the Christian doctrine of the Trinity.
You are right, I was trying to describe it as I understood it. Thank you for your explanation of it. That is the best explanation I have heard. I still can't grasp how 3 persons can exist as one being.
I like the tone this topic has had today, more about what the beliefs are, than trying to use scripture to argue a point.
I would like to state a belief of the LDS Church, not about the Trinity, but I want to say it as a belief of mine that there might some agreement with.
We claim the priveledge of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same priveledge, let them worship how, where, or what they may. The 11th article of faith.
I would suggest that it is not as important what one thinks God is, as much as what one does with their belief- how they live and how they treat their fellow beings. "Love thy neighbor as thyself".

[MobyMule]

The website was discussing modelism NOT the Trinity. It really isn't as hard as you are making it sound.

Here are the belief systems

1 God (in Being) = 1 Person (Judaism, Oneness Pentacostals, JW's, Muslims)
1 God (in Being) = 3 Persons (Trinitarians, mainly Catholics, Protestants,)
1 God (in purpose) = 3 Beings (Mormons)

Is that being or substance? I have heard it was substance.

[Fire Watch]

I believe that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost are three beings, sperate beings, Three sperate beings.

Seems to me if you look at the Baptism of Jesus were the Son was on earth, the Holy Ghost deecended from heaven and God the Father spoke from Heaven all that the same time you would come the conclusion that they are three sperate beings.

The baptism of Christ does not indicate a plurality in the Godhead. The dove was only a representation of God's Spirit for John to see(The purpose of the dove was that it symbolized the Holy Ghost. It must have been symbolic because the Holy Ghost is not a bird!) When the Holy Ghost descended upon Jesus, John saw a symbol of God's Spirit, not a person of the Godhead. The voice from heaven does not indicate that Jesus was a separate person from God either, but demonstrates the fact that God still existed as the omnipresent Spirit in heaven even after the incarnation. Jesus was God manifest in the flesh, and as such was willingly limited by the incarnation as it pertains to where His presence could be at any given time. To claim that the voice from heaven, or the appearance of the dove indicate a plurality in the Godhead is not warranted. This passage only demonstrates the omnipresence of God, and the relationship between the Father and the Son as it pertains to the incarnation.

The voice is never said to the be the voice of God. It is thought to be the voice of God because of the voice's reference to Jesus as "my beloved Son." Since it is God who is said to be Jesus' Father throughout the New Testament it is concluded that this had to be God speaking here. The Scripture says that Jesus was begotten by the Holy Ghost, thereby making Him Jesus' Father, so why could the voice not have been the Holy Ghost's (Matthew 1:20; Luke 1:35)? Was the Holy Ghost Jesus' Father, or was it God? Although I believe it was God who spoke, I am making this point to show the foolishness of trying to find all three members of a trinity here. This is a problem one will run into when trying to use this passage to split up the Godhead into members; however, when one understands that God is one, and that the Holy Ghost and Jesus are manifestations of this one God to man, passages like this are easily understood.

The purpose of Jesus' baptism was to reveal the identity of the Messiah to John the Baptist. John's ministry was to prepare the hearts of Israel for the LORD to visit them without consuming them in His wrath for their sins (Isaiah 40:3; Malachi 3:1-7; 4:5-6). That is why John came preaching repentance from sin, demanding to see visible evidence stemming from this repentance. He brought the people to understand their moral obligations and the importance of having one's heart right with God (Matthew 3:1-2, 5-12; Mark 1:4; Luke 3:3-14). John preached in the wilderness telling the people that although he baptized them with water to repentance, there was One coming after Him who was greater than he, and He would baptize them with the Holy Ghost (Matthew 3:11-12; Mark 1:7-8; Luke 3:16-17; John 1:23, 26, 30-31). John's ministry was to prepare the people for, and point the way toward the Messiah. John, however, did not know who this Messiah was (John 1:30-31). He did not know that His own cousin was God manifest in the flesh, the anointed Messiah for Israel and all the earth (Luke 1:34-41; John 1:30-31).

The lack of John's knowledge as to the identity of the Messiah is the purpose for the descent of the Holy Ghost in the form of a dove. In the gospel of John, John the Baptist used the first person singular "I," referring to who saw the dove, indicating that it was he who saw the Spirit of the Lord descending and abiding upon Jesus. Apparently John the Baptist was the only one who saw this phenomenon. He explained this is John 1:31-34 when he said:

"And I knew him not: but that he should be made manifest to Israel, therefore am I come baptizing with water. And John bare record, saying, I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and it abode upon him. And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost. And I saw, and bare record that this is the Son of God."

It was "He that sent" John to baptize which gave Him a personal sign so he could identify the Messiah for whom he prepared the way. This sign was that the Spirit of the Lord would descend and abide upon Him. God did not tell John that it would appear in the form of a dove, but that was the way it ended up happening. God had to make His Spirit visible in some way because He is invisible. If He did not appear in some type of visible form John would have had no way of seeing Him descend upon the Messiah. The appearance of the dove was only for John's sake so that He could finally know the identity of the One he had been preparing the way for. Once the Messiah was manifest to Israel, John's ministry was close to completion (John 3:30). In defense that John alone saw the dove, it can be argued that if others would have seen the dove there would have been no reason for John to relate the story to them as he did (John 1:29-36). After John saw the dove, he was able to boldly proclaim of Jesus, "Behold the Lamb of God!" (John 1:36)

[HisServant]

The baptism of Christ does not indicate a plurality in the Godhead. The dove was only a representation of God's Spirit for John to see(The purpose of the dove was that it symbolized the Holy Ghost. It must have been symbolic because the Holy Ghost is not a bird!) When the Holy Ghost descended upon Jesus, John saw a symbol of God's Spirit, not a person of the Godhead. The voice from heaven does not indicate that Jesus was a separate person from God either, but demonstrates the fact that God still existed as the omnipresent Spirit in heaven even after the incarnation. Jesus was God manifest in the flesh, and as such was willingly limited by the incarnation as it pertains to where His presence could be at any given time. To claim that the voice from heaven, or the appearance of the dove indicate a plurality in the Godhead is not warranted. This passage only demonstrates the omnipresence of God, and the relationship between the Father and the Son as it pertains to the incarnation.

The voice is never said to the be the voice of God. It is thought to be the voice of God because of the voice's reference to Jesus as "my beloved Son." Since it is God who is said to be Jesus' Father throughout the New Testament it is concluded that this had to be God speaking here. The Scripture says that Jesus was begotten by the Holy Ghost, thereby making Him Jesus' Father, so why could the voice not have been the Holy Ghost's (Matthew 1:20; Luke 1:35)? Was the Holy Ghost Jesus' Father, or was it God? Although I believe it was God who spoke, I am making this point to show the foolishness of trying to find all three members of a trinity here. This is a problem one will run into when trying to use this passage to split up the Godhead into members; however, when one understands that God is one, and that the Holy Ghost and Jesus are manifestations of this one God to man, passages like this are easily understood.

The purpose of Jesus' baptism was to reveal the identity of the Messiah to John the Baptist. John's ministry was to prepare the hearts of Israel for the LORD to visit them without consuming them in His wrath for their sins (Isaiah 40:3; Malachi 3:1-7; 4:5-6). That is why John came preaching repentance from sin, demanding to see visible evidence stemming from this repentance. He brought the people to understand their moral obligations and the importance of having one's heart right with God (Matthew 3:1-2, 5-12; Mark 1:4; Luke 3:3-14). John preached in the wilderness telling the people that although he baptized them with water to repentance, there was One coming after Him who was greater than he, and He would baptize them with the Holy Ghost (Matthew 3:11-12; Mark 1:7-8; Luke 3:16-17; John 1:23, 26, 30-31). John's ministry was to prepare the people for, and point the way toward the Messiah. John, however, did not know who this Messiah was (John 1:30-31). He did not know that His own cousin was God manifest in the flesh, the anointed Messiah for Israel and all the earth (Luke 1:34-41; John 1:30-31).

The lack of John's knowledge as to the identity of the Messiah is the purpose for the descent of the Holy Ghost in the form of a dove. In the gospel of John, John the Baptist used the first person singular "I," referring to who saw the dove, indicating that it was he who saw the Spirit of the Lord descending and abiding upon Jesus. Apparently John the Baptist was the only one who saw this phenomenon. He explained this is John 1:31-34 when he said:

"And I knew him not: but that he should be made manifest to Israel, therefore am I come baptizing with water. And John bare record, saying, I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and it abode upon him. And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost. And I saw, and bare record that this is the Son of God."

It was "He that sent" John to baptize which gave Him a personal sign so he could identify the Messiah for whom he prepared the way. This sign was that the Spirit of the Lord would descend and abide upon Him. God did not tell John that it would appear in the form of a dove, but that was the way it ended up happening. God had to make His Spirit visible in some way because He is invisible. If He did not appear in some type of visible form John would have had no way of seeing Him descend upon the Messiah. The appearance of the dove was only for John's sake so that He could finally know the identity of the One he had been preparing the way for. Once the Messiah was manifest to Israel, John's ministry was close to completion (John 3:30). In defense that John alone saw the dove, it can be argued that if others would have seen the dove there would have been no reason for John to relate the story to them as he did (John 1:29-36). After John saw the dove, he was able to boldly proclaim of Jesus, "Behold the Lamb of God!" (John 1:36)

Good points. As I see it since if the Holy Spirit is God then scripture is still correct in saying that Jesus is the Son of God. Since John 1:1 tells us that in the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and then the Word became flesh. We see that the Logos came from God the Father. And since God the Father is one with the Spirit then we still have no problems as far as I can see. And since Jesus Himself says the Father sent Him and He is God there is still no problem in scripture. What we have is a concept that is vast and hard to understand because we are attempting to understand someone and something that is incomprehensible.

[DRS]

Or it could be the fact that since Ruach is an impersonal force the holy spirit, is not a person (hence no name) and that is why you see it as a dove or tongues of fire.

[Angryamerican]

Or it could be the fact that since Ruach is an impersonal force the holy spirit, is not a person (hence no name) and that is why you see it as a dove or tongues of fire.

Makes sense to me.:clap:

[HisServant]

Or it could be the fact that since Ruach is an impersonal force the holy spirit, is not a person (hence no name) and that is why you see it as a dove or tongues of fire.

Or could it be you can't acknowledge the Holy Spirit is God because it throws your whole theology out the window.

[Angryamerican]

Or could it be you can't acknowledge the Holy Spirit is God because it throws your whole theology out the window.

You are having a problem seeing that DRS beliefs are based on scripture.

Your belief is based on very few scriptures that at best are suspect.

How come you can't discuss without making it personal.

Read john chapter 5. There is no way you can come away with Christ being God or a trinity.

Jesus has repeatedly told you who he is, But you are not listening ,But today there are Christians that are doing the same thing the Jews did in the 5th chapter of john. open your eyes.

[HisServant]

You are having a problem seeing that DRS beliefs are based on scripture.

Your belief is based on very few scriptures that at best are suspect.

How come you can't discuss without making it personal.

Read john chapter 5. There is no way you can come away with Christ being God or a trinity.

Jesus has repeatedly told you who he is, But you are not listening ,But today there are Christians that are doing the same thing the Jews did in the 5th chapter of john. open your eyes.

The sum of God's Word is truth. I believe all of it. I just chose to stay on a few because they are basic building blocks. If you can't get those right chances are you will not understand the rest so why go on to others. Case in point you would stop saying God is a Trinity or that Jesus is a Trinity if you understood what the Trinity doctrine is.

Great chapter Why don't you read verse 18 and tell me that they did not understand what Jesus meant. Each time Jesus had a confrontation with them and declared who He was they wanted to stone Him because they knew what He was saying. He is The Son of God, meaning God. See verse 18.

[DRS]

The sum of God's Word is truth. I believe all of it. I just chose to stay on a few because they are basic building blocks. If you can't get those right chances are you will not understand the rest so why go on to others. Case in point you would stop saying God is a Trinity or that Jesus is a Trinity if you understood what the Trinity doctrine is.

Great chapter Why don't you read verse 18 and tell me that they did not understand what Jesus meant. Each time Jesus had a confrontation with them and declared who He was they wanted to stone Him because they knew what He was saying. He is The Son of God, meaning God. See verse 18.

The only thing is you now have the bible dividing itself, the first books, One God whose name is Jehovah, the holy spirit (ruach) an impersonal force.

Now you are saying because of putting greek philosophical thought onto scriptures you are nor saying an impersonal force is a person god is triune and man can see god and live.

[HisServant]

The only thing is you now have the bible dividing itself, the first books, One God whose name is Jehovah, the holy spirit (ruach) an impersonal force.

Now you are saying because of putting greek philosophical thought onto scriptures you are nor saying an impersonal force is a person god is triune and man can see god and live.

Or you are dividing it that way with you interpretation of an impersonal force and seeing greek philosophy where there is none.

[Warrior4God]

I am happy to see this thread have a more civil tone which makes it more enjoyable to read
Although DRS is always civil and respectful

[DRS]

Or you are dividing it that way with you interpretation of an impersonal force and seeing greek philosophy where there is none.

Nope, we have had this discussion before and Mimi explained it was impersonal.

You are saying there is no evidence of NeoPlatonic thought in the philosophy and view of God now held by many?

[Fire Watch]

The only thing is you now have the bible dividing itself, the first books, One God whose name is Jehovah, the holy spirit (ruach) an impersonal force.

Now you are saying because of putting greek philosophical thought onto scriptures you are nor saying an impersonal force is a person god is triune and man can see god and live.
Thats funny...I started a thread and showed where God's name IS NOT Jehova, and the Jews agreed with me..hmm

[DRS]

Thats funny...I started a thread and showed where God's name IS NOT Jehova, and the Jews agreed with me..hmm

So you call Jesus Yeshua?

[Fire Watch]

So you call Jesus Yeshua?

In Hebrew Jesus' name is spelled as "Yeshua." The "Ye" in Yeshua is the abbreviated form of YHWH. "Shua" is from the Hebrew word for salvation, yasha. Jesus' name literally means "YHWH is salvation." The name "Jesus," then, actually contains the name "YHWH" in abbreviated form. While YHWH simply describes who God is, when it is combined with a verb it describes what God does. The name "Jesus" describes the fact that YHWH has become salvation. Who is Christ? He is YHWH, saving His people from their sins.

The name "Jesus" is so important to us because it is an expanded form of the same divine name revealed in the OT. It is not a different name. It is only greater in that it more fully expresses who God is to us--Savior. Truly God's name is Jesus, because God's name is YHWH. We confess that God's name is YHWH every time we confess Him as Jesus.

It is not a matter of Yehoshuah or Jesus. It is a matter of Iesous or Jesus. Yehoshuah is Hebrew, but the NT is written in Greek, and thus the Hebrew name of Jesus does not appear. Jesus is a transliteration directly from the Greek word Iesous. Greek does not have the "J" sound, but English does. Before the late seventeenth-century the name of Jesus was written as "Iesus" and pronounced with a "Y" sound as in Greek. The original KJV of 1611 actually has it written this way.. But in the late seventeenth-century English speakers began pronouncing words that began with the letter "I" with a "J" sound. In time there was a hook added at the bottom of the letter I to indicate that the "J" sound should be made even though it was the letter "I." Over time the "J" sound took on a life of its own and became part of our alphabet as a separate letter from the "I," and was used in other places than just the beginning of words. This is how we went from saying "Iesous" to "Jesus." The NT does not spell Jesus’ name as "Yehoshuah" because the NT was written in Greek, not Hebrew, and that spelling is Hebrew.

[Harmonious]

Thats funny...I started a thread and showed where God's name IS NOT Jehova, and the Jews agreed with me..hmm
For the record, I didn't say that it wasn't God's name, only that we aren't allowed to say it.

We don't know the proper vowelation, and we aren't allowed to use that vowelation, whether it is right or wrong.

That's why I always say "J-Witness." I'm not going to use God's name in vain, even if it is the right way to say it.

[Fire Watch]

gotcha

[Harmonious]

Also, as I said in the other thread, Jesus is not God. Thank you for playing.

[aaronshaf]

Tater, thanks for directly copying and pasting from....

http://www.watchtower.org/e/ti/article_03.htm

[DRS]

In Hebrew Jesus' name is spelled as "Yeshua." The "Ye" in Yeshua is the abbreviated form of YHWH. "Shua" is from the Hebrew word for salvation, yasha. Jesus' name literally means "YHWH is salvation." The name "Jesus," then, actually contains the name "YHWH" in abbreviated form. While YHWH simply describes who God is, when it is combined with a verb it describes what God does. The name "Jesus" describes the fact that YHWH has become salvation. Who is Christ? He is YHWH, saving His people from their sins.

The name "Jesus" is so important to us because it is an expanded form of the same divine name revealed in the OT. It is not a different name. It is only greater in that it more fully expresses who God is to us--Savior. Truly God's name is Jesus, because God's name is YHWH. We confess that God's name is YHWH every time we confess Him as Jesus.

It is not a matter of Yehoshuah or Jesus. It is a matter of Iesous or Jesus. Yehoshuah is Hebrew, but the NT is written in Greek, and thus the Hebrew name of Jesus does not appear. Jesus is a transliteration directly from the Greek word Iesous. Greek does not have the "J" sound, but English does. Before the late seventeenth-century the name of Jesus was written as "Iesus" and pronounced with a "Y" sound as in Greek. The original KJV of 1611 actually has it written this way.. But in the late seventeenth-century English speakers began pronouncing words that began with the letter "I" with a "J" sound. In time there was a hook added at the bottom of the letter I to indicate that the "J" sound should be made even though it was the letter "I." Over time the "J" sound took on a life of its own and became part of our alphabet as a separate letter from the "I," and was used in other places than just the beginning of words. This is how we went from saying "Iesous" to "Jesus." The NT does not spell Jesus’ name as "Yehoshuah" because the NT was written in Greek, not Hebrew, and that spelling is Hebrew.

If Jesus was part of the divine name then why are people named Jesus before Jesus Christ came?

[DispensationalJim]

My "connection" with the internet was interrupted for awhile, but I am thankful to finally be able to post again.

First, I must say that I have enjoyed reading all the posts on this thread. I created a special folder and am SAVING this entire thread for future reference.

But, I especially enjoyed reading the posts of Harmonious.

=======================

Harmonious, I would like to ask you several questions if I may.

First, could you give me a listing of the most appropriate "prophecies" in your Bible (our "Old Testament") about the Messiah which you consider to be the most obvious and vital for qualifying a person to be accepted as THE Messiah? If there is a web-site you can recommend which deals with this, that would be fine.

I am especially interested in verses which show that the Messiah cannot die before he completes his task of "saving" Israel and giving them their land, etc.

------------------------------------------

Secondly, since you say that Jesus and the New Testament are "irrelevant" to you, have you ever studied the differences between the various Christian groups regarding their doctrine as it relates to Israel?

I ask this because there ARE a number of Christian denominations which SUPPORT ISRAEL and are in absolute agreement that Israel WILL SOMEDAY RETURN TO THEIR PROMISED LAND and stay there FOREVER JUST AS GOD PROMISED.
------------------------------------------

Thirdly, Harmonious, has any one ever showed you this marvelous passage from the book of Romans written by the apostle Paul?

• Rom. 11:1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
Rom. 11:2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. ...

Rom. 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
Rom. 11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work. ...

Rom. 11:13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:
Rom. 11:14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.
Rom. 11:15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead? ...

Rom. 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. ...

AND HERE IS THE CLINCHER!!
Rom. 11:26 **AND SO ALL ISRAEL SHALL BE SAVED**: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
Rom. 11:27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

=================================

I'll await your response, Harmonious, before discussing this further. And thanks again for your interesting and informative posts.

DispensationalJim

[Christian Voter]

I would like to ask of those who say that Jesus was not God, what do you mean? Are you saying that He is not God the Father, or are you saying that He is not divine, not the Son of God; or something else? I agree with the scriptures that say that He is God, not that He is the Father, but that Jesus and the Father are both God, with the Holy Ghost. I am not trying to start an argument, but I would like to know what you mean when you say that.

[Harmonious]

My "connection" with the internet was interrupted for awhile, but I am thankful to finally be able to post again.

First, I must say that I have enjoyed reading all the posts on this thread. I created a special folder and am SAVING this entire thread for future reference.

But, I especially enjoyed reading the posts of Harmonious.I am honored. I aim to please. :mrgreen:

Actually, I aim to educate, but there is nothing that says I can't do so in a pleasant manner.
=======================

Harmonious, I would like to ask you several questions if I may.Go for it.

First, could you give me a listing of the most appropriate "prophecies" in your Bible (our "Old Testament") about the Messiah which you consider to be the most obvious and vital for qualifying a person to be accepted as THE Messiah? If there is a web-site you can recommend which deals with this, that would be fine.
Jews for Judaism (http://www.jewsforjudaism.com) is one of many websites that explain why Jesus is not the Messiah. It goes on at length, particularly in this (http://www.jewsforjudaism.com/jews-jesus/jews-jesus-index.html) essay. Poisonshady knows far more of them than I do. This one is just tried and true for me.
I am especially interested in verses which show that the Messiah cannot die before he completes his task of "saving" Israel and giving them their land, etc.More to the point, there are no verses that say that the Messiah will come back and accomplish everything in a second try.

I don't know if you are aware, but right now there is a split between mainstream Orthodox Judaism and certain Lubavitch Chassidim who believe that the Rebbe, may a saintly man be remembered for a blessing, is the Messiah.

They depart from Judaism, and believe that Rebbe Menachem Mendel Schneerson is actually the Messiah, and he died, and he will come back to finish the job he started.

There are Jews who believe that Lubavitch Chassidim who believe this are not actually Jews anymore, but are likened to early Christians, but the fellow proclaimed as Messiah is different.

I am reading a book on this very topic. When I get far enough to get to the sources, I'll let you know.

------------------------------------------

Secondly, since you say that Jesus and the New Testament are "irrelevant" to you, have you ever studied the differences between the various Christian groups regarding their doctrine as it relates to Israel?

I ask this because there ARE a number of Christian denominations which SUPPORT ISRAEL and are in absolute agreement that Israel WILL SOMEDAY RETURN TO THEIR PROMISED LAND and stay there FOREVER JUST AS GOD PROMISED.I haven't done a specific study of the differences, no. But I do know that there are some Christians who are eager for all Jews to go to Israel, and I know that there are other Christians who say that we are damned where ever we are. There are Christians that say all manners of things.

Some Christians are very kind, like most Christians here. And the ones who aren't, I take with a grain of salt.

But the folks that say nice things about Jews always have a nice place in my book. :hug:
------------------------------------------

Thirdly, Harmonious, has any one ever showed you this marvelous passage from the book of Romans written by the apostle Paul?

• Rom. 11:1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
Rom. 11:2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. ...

Rom. 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
Rom. 11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work. ...

Rom. 11:13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:
Rom. 11:14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.
Rom. 11:15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead? ...

Rom. 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. ...

AND HERE IS THE CLINCHER!!
Rom. 11:26 **AND SO ALL ISRAEL SHALL BE SAVED**: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
Rom. 11:27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
I've never seen it before. I'm glad that there is something in the Christian scriptures that actually says kind things about Israel.

I still don't hold the Christian scriptures as holy, but it is nice to know that something good exists therein.
=================================

I'll await your response, Harmonious, before discussing this further. And thanks again for your interesting and informative posts.

DispensationalJimMy pleasure, Jim!

[Harmonious]

I would like to ask of those who say that Jesus was not God, what do you mean? Are you saying that He is not God the Father, or are you saying that He is not divine, not the Son of God; or something else? I agree with the scriptures that say that He is God, not that He is the Father, but that Jesus and the Father are both God, with the Holy Ghost. I am not trying to start an argument, but I would like to know what you mean when you say that.

I mean that Jesus was not God, plain and simple. He's not God, he's not a divine son, or anything else.

It is more likely to me that Jesus' father was Zebulun the Goatherder rather than God Himself.

Jesus was just this guy, you know? (Ten points for anyone who can figure out what I'm referencing there.)

But you kind of knew I would say something like that anyway, right?

[DispensationalJim]

Thanks, Harmonious, for the quick response and for the web site. I have added it to my permanent list of sites, and will try to read it through as soon as I can.

After learning some things the hard way over my almost 70 years, I now (finally) have determined to try to learn as much as possible from those with whom I disagree and make a determination as to the actual differences between us before I express my admittedly strongly held views. I find that many who consider others their enemies actually have many issues in common.

But your last post to Christian Voter reminded me of something else. Did you not say in an earlier post that you thought that Jesus did claim to be God? Would you mind repeating that thought or give me the post # so I can see it again? That would be most helpful for further discussion.

Thank you so much.

DispensationalJim

[Mathius]

I would like to ask of those who say that Jesus was not God, what do you mean? Are you saying that He is not God the Father, or are you saying that He is not divine, not the Son of God; or something else? I agree with the scriptures that say that He is God, not that He is the Father, but that Jesus and the Father are both God, with the Holy Ghost. I am not trying to start an argument, but I would like to know what you mean when you say that.

I don't want to go out on a limb here but could he be a reincarnation of Gautama Buddha, Confucius, White buffalo Lady, or the "Aryan God" of the Aztecs. Some say that he is the spirit "Barbelo" of all of the above who has been sent by God to help the "lost" people to "find their way back" to God.

[DRS]

I would like to ask of those who say that Jesus was not God, what do you mean? Are you saying that He is not God the Father, or are you saying that He is not divine, not the Son of God; or something else? I agree with the scriptures that say that He is God, not that He is the Father, but that Jesus and the Father are both God, with the Holy Ghost. I am not trying to start an argument, but I would like to know what you mean when you say that.

There is only One Almighty God, and Jesus is not the Almighty.

Jesus is the only begotten Son of God (the only one created by God) as after him all things are created through him and for him.

[Harmonious]

Thanks, Harmonious, for the quick response and for the web site. I have added it to my permanent list of sites, and will try to read it through as soon as I can.

After learning some things the hard way over my almost 70 years, I now (finally) have determined to try to learn as much as possible from those with whom I disagree and make a determination as to the actual differences between us before I express my admittedly strongly held views. I find that many who consider others their enemies actually have many issues in common.Cool. :)

But your last post to Christian Voter reminded me of something else. Did you not say in an earlier post that you thought that Jesus did claim to be God? Would you mind repeating that thought or give me the post # so I can see it again? That would be most helpful for further discussion.I didn't really say it, as much as understood that other people believed it. They must have a reason for believing it.

If there are any verses that say that Jesus said he is God, that must be why some Christians think Jesus is God.

There are other Christians who believe that Jesus is NOT God, but merely a son of God.

My comment to Christian Voter is that I don't hold either belief. He was just a man, and the more I read about him the less impressed I am about him. Not your fault, but the way it is.

Thank you so much.

DispensationalJim
My pleasure!

[Warrior4God]

Cool. :)

I didn't really say it, as much as understood that other people believed it. They must have a reason for believing it.

If there are any verses that say that Jesus said he is God, that must be why some Christians think Jesus is God.

There are other Christians who believe that Jesus is NOT God, but merely a son of God.

My comment to Christian Voter is that I don't hold either belief. He was just a man, and the more I read about him the less impressed I am about him. Not your fault, but the way it is.


My pleasure!

There are no scripture that Jesus says he is God in fact he makes it very clear he is not God
1. Because Jesus Christ is represented by the sacred writers to be as distinct a being from God the Father as one man is distinct from another. “It is written in your law, that the testimony of two men is true. I am one who bear witness of myself, and the Father that sent me beareth witness of me,” John 8:17, 18.

2. Because he not only never said that himself was God, but, on the contrary, spoke of the Father, who sent him, as God, and as the only God. “This is life eternal, that they might know Thee, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent,” John 17:3. This language our Saviour used in solemn prayer to “his Father and our Father.”

3. Because he is declared, in unnumbered instances, to be the Son of God. “And lo, a voice from heaven, saying, this is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased,” Matt 3:17. Can a son be coeval (the same age) and the same with his father?

4. Because he is styled the Christ, or the anointed of God. “God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power,” Acts 10:38. Is he who anoints the same with him who is anointed?

5. Because he is represented as a Priest. “Consider the ….High-Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus,” Heb. 3:1. The office of a priest is to minister to God. Christ, then, as a priest, cannot be God.

6. Because Christ is Mediator between the “One God,” and “men.” “For there is one God, and one Mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,” 1 Tim. 2:5.

7. Because, as the Saviour of men, he was sent by the Father. “And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world. 1 John 4:14.

8. Because he is an Apostle appointed by God. “Consider the Apostle,...Christ Jesus, who was faithful to him that appointed him,” Heb. 3:1, 2.

9. Because Christ is represented as our intercessor with God. “It is Christ that died, yea, rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us,” Rom. 8:34.

10. Because the head of Christ is God. “I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of every woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God,” 1 Cor. 11:3.

11. Because, in the same sense in which we are said to belong to Christ, Christ is said to belong to God. “And ye are Christ’s; and Christ is God’s,” 1 Cor. 3:23.

12. Because Christ says, “My father is greater than all,” John 10:29. Is not the father, then greater than the son?

13. Because he affirms, in another connection, and without the least qualification, “My Father is greater than I,” John 14:28

14. Because he virtually denies that he is God, when he exclaims, “Why callest thou me Good? There is none good but one, that is God,” Matt 19:17.

[Harmonious]

I appreciate your efforts, brave Warrior. But you are not convincing ME. I never believed that Jesus was anything more than a Jewish man. At least we agree that Jesus isn't God.

It is good to agree, isn't it? :)

[Mathius]

I appreciate your efforts, brave Warrior. But you are not convincing ME. I never believed that Jesus was anything more than a Jewish man. At least we agree that Jesus isn't God.

It is good to agree, isn't it? :)

If we can agree that Jesus isn't God then what is it that you don't like about his teaching?

[Dave.]

Jesus is the only begotten Son of God (the only one created by God) as after him all things are created through him and for him.

Jesus was not created

Colossians 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn (first in preeminence) over all creation. 16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. 17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist. 18 And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence.

Colossians 2:8 Beware lest anyone cheat you through philosophy and empty deceit, according to the tradition of men, according to the basic principles of the world, and not according to Christ. 9 For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily; 10 and you are complete in Him, who is the head of all principality and power.

[Harmonious]

If we can agree that Jesus isn't God then what is it that you don't like about his teaching?

Oh, the idea that he was disrespectful to the Rabbis. The idea that he overturned money tables the day before Passover (I'll never forgive him for that one... I may be a Jewish mother one day), the idea that if anyone follows his teaching that the majority of the Torah goes out the window.

These I don't care for.

[Mathius]

Oh, the idea that he was disrespectful to the Rabbis. The idea that he overturned money tables the day before Passover (I'll never forgive him for that one... I may be a Jewish mother one day), the idea that if anyone follows his teaching that the majority of the Torah goes out the window.

These I don't care for.

Sorry I am ignorant about the jewish community. Can you elaborate why it was bad he overturned the money tables.

[Harmonious]

Sorry I am ignorant about the jewish community. Can you elaborate why it was bad he overturned the money tables.

People would be coming in from all over the world. The most accepted place to change money would be in the courtyard of the Temple: the fear of God in His own House (in theory if not actuality) would keep the money changers straight.

The Temple is where people from afar bought animals for the Passover offering. The animal had to be whole and healthy. If it wasn't, it wasn't acceptible as an offering. Therefore, instead of bringing all kinds of animals over mountains and over rivers, it made lots of sense to buy the necessary animals at the Temple.

The sellers might not have known all of the various currencies, but had perfect weights geared for Shekels. Therefore, the money changers were absolutely necessary and vital for any out of town exchange. Also, if there were questions, the High Court would be onhand to help with checking weights and measures, and whatever discrepencies arose.

Now, I'm pretty sure that as a non-Jew you are not at all familiar with what Jewish families do in preparation for the holiday of Passover. It is a complicated affair, making sure that we have no Leavening in our possession, and all kinds of things of that nature. Then envision that after all of that is taken care of, the family needs to purchase last minute items to be ready for the Passover Seder. Envision a Christmas dinner but far more elaborate and far more rules, if you will.

And then there is the securing the lodgings, for all of the Jews have to be in Jerusalem (in the OLD CITY of Jerusalem). Millions of Jews had to be there, and involved, and making sure who was Pure and who was Unpure, so who was allowed to go to the Temple, and who would be allowed to eat from the sacrifices.

There are already so many odds and ends and complications of a Passover celebration, and I'm envisioning a Passover celebration in the Temple, and that is assuming it all goes well without a hitch. And realize that millions of Jews are doing this all at the same time...

Now envision a madman turning over the tables that have the currency necessary for purchase. The goatherder doesn't know the conversion of Babylonian Zuzim or Roman Dinar, but he knows Israeli Shekels. And the spice merchant. Or which ever merchant counted on the currency exchangers being there and doing their jobs.

How many innocent Jewish pilgrims had to wait while Jesus went on his unnecessary tirade about profaning the holy, or whatever it was that he was on about, and then had to wait for the people in charge of the currency exchange to set the tables back up, with all of the money resorted and the balances reset? To the people who had to suffer a delay in their Passover preparations, so Jesus could make his wrong-headed tirade?

I will never forgive him for that. I doubt that the people of his time didn't shed too many tears when he was killed.

The Romans were evil, but Jesus wasn't very nice, either.

[Mathius]

Ok thanks. His whole thing was the defiling of his father's house with such worldly things. Kind of ironic.

[Harmonious]

Ok thanks. His whole thing was the defiling of his father's house with such worldly things. Kind of ironic.It wouldn't be the first thing Jesus was wrong about.

[DispensationalJim]

Warrior4God, I must say I appreciate your use of Scripture to support your view. However, having taken a few days to read through this thread, I do not recall seeing a really good response to the idea that...

... JESUS WILLINGLY MADE HIMSELF INTO A MAN SO HE COULD DIE FOR OUR SINS.

These verses have been quoted several times, but please consider the passage once more in fairness:
• Phil. 2:5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
Phil. 2:6 Who, being IN THE FORM OF GOD, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
Phil. 2:7 But MADE HIMSELF of no reputation, and TOOK UPON HIM the form of a servant, and was MADE IN THE LIKENESS OF MEN:
Phil. 2:8 And being found in fashion AS A MAN, he HUMBLED HIMSELF, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

IMHO, that makes it quite clear that Jesus existed before He came to earth and MADE HIMSELF INTO A MAN. That also makes it quite clear IMHO that Jesus WAS GOD BEFORE HE MADE HIMSELF INTO A MAN. How could He make HIMSELF into a man if He was not God IN THE FIRST PLACE??

==============================
That also would explain all the verses used to show that Jesus was subject to His Heavenly Father while in the form of a man on earth. If Jesus was God, but made Himself into a man on earth, and His Father (God) was still in Heaven, Jesus then was totally dependent on God the Father while living on this earth to "protect" Him and guide Him as a human being until His time to die had come.

So, Jesus VOLUNTARILY GAVE UP HIS OMNIPRESENCE, HIS OMNIPOTENCE, AND HIS OMNISCIENCE while He was living in a human body, especially when He was in the womb of Mary! That certainly explains it for me.

==============================
And BTW, my favorite analogy to demonstrate the trinity is the EGG.

One egg = one shell + one yolk + one white. It does NOT make three eggs, but one.

Thus, One GOD = One Father + One Son + One Holy Spirit.

----------------------------------------
Similarly, One Human Being = One Body + One Soul + One Spirit.

DispensationalJim

[Mathius]

Warrior4God, I must say I appreciate your use of Scripture to support your view. However, having taken a few days to read through this thread, I do not recall seeing a really good response to the idea that...

... JESUS WILLINGLY MADE HIMSELF INTO A MAN SO HE COULD DIE FOR OUR SINS.

These verses have been quoted several times, but please consider the passage once more in fairness:
• Phil. 2:5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
Phil. 2:6 Who, being IN THE FORM OF GOD, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
Phil. 2:7 But MADE HIMSELF of no reputation, and TOOK UPON HIM the form of a servant, and was MADE IN THE LIKENESS OF MEN:
Phil. 2:8 And being found in fashion AS A MAN, he HUMBLED HIMSELF, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

IMHO, that makes it quite clear that Jesus existed before He came to earth and MADE HIMSELF INTO A MAN. That also makes it quite clear IMHO that Jesus WAS GOD BEFORE HE MADE HIMSELF INTO A MAN. How could He make HIMSELF into a man if He was not God IN THE FIRST PLACE??

==============================
That also would explain all the verses used to show that Jesus was subject to His Heavenly Father while in the form of a man on earth. If Jesus was God, but made Himself into a man on earth, and His Father (God) was still in Heaven, Jesus then was totally dependent on God the Father while living on this earth to "protect" Him and guide Him as a human being until His time to die had come.

So, Jesus VOLUNTARILY GAVE UP HIS OMNIPRESENCE, HIS OMNIPOTENCE, AND HIS OMNISCIENCE while He was living in a human body, especially when He was in the womb of Mary! That certainly explains it for me.

==============================
And BTW, my favorite analogy to demonstrate the trinity is the EGG.

One egg = one shell + one yolk + one white. It does NOT make three eggs, but one.

Thus, One GOD = One Father + One Son + One Holy Spirit.

----------------------------------------
Similarly, One Human Being = One Body + One Soul + One Spirit.

DispensationalJim

Where in the Gospels does Jesus say that he is God and not the Son of man or the Son of God? Give me a verse besides John 1:1 as that seems to be the favorite around here.

[DispensationalJim]

Just for you, Mathius-

JESUS IS GOD IN THE "GOSPELS":
• Matt. 1:23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, GOD WITH US.
--------------------------------
• Matt. 12:4 How he entered into the HOUSE OF GOD, and did eat the shewbread, which was not lawful for him to eat, neither for them which were with him, but only for the priests?

with
• Matt. 21:13 And said unto them, It is written, MY HOUSE shall be called the house of prayer; but ye have made it a den of thieves. (Also Mark 2:26 with 11:17; Luke 6:4 with 19:46)
------------------------------
• Matt. 22:42 Saying, What think ye of Christ? whose son is he? They say unto him, The Son of David. 43 He saith unto them, How then doth David in spirit call him Lord, saying, 44 The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool? 45 If David then call him Lord, how is he his son? (Also Luke 20:41-44)
----------------------------------
• Mark 2:5 When Jesus saw their faith, he said unto the sick of the palsy, Son, thy sins be forgiven thee. 6 But there were certain of the scribes sitting there, and reasoning in their hearts, 7 Why doth this man thus speak blasphemies? WHO CAN FORGIVE SINS BUT GOD ONLY? :8 And immediately when Jesus perceived in his spirit that they so reasoned within themselves, he said unto them, Why reason ye these things in your hearts? 9 Whether is it easier to say to the sick of the palsy, Thy sins be forgiven thee; or to say, Arise, and take up thy bed, and walk? 10 But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins, (he saith to the sick of the palsy,) 11 I say unto thee, Arise, and take up thy bed, and go thy way into thine house. (Also Luke 5:21)
------------------------------
• Mark 10:6 But from the beginning of the creation GOD MADE THEM male and female.

with
• John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and THE WORD WAS GOD. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made by him (JESUS); and without him was not any thing made that was made.
---------------------------------
• Luke 7:16 And there came a fear on all: and they glorified God, saying, That a great prophet is risen up among us; and, That GOD HATH VISITED HIS PEOPLE.
--------------------------------
• Luke 11:20 But if I with THE FINGER OF GOD cast out devils, no doubt the kingdom of God is come upon you.
---------------------------------
• John 5:18 Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, MAKING HIMSELF EQUAL WITH GOD.
--------------------------------
• John 10:33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, MAKEST THYSELF GOD.
---------------------------------
• John 14:1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.
--------------------------------
• John 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and MY GOD. Sit thou on my right hand,
=========================

That's just from the "Gospels."

There are many more in Paul's epistles. Want to see them, also?

DispensationalJim

[DRS]

People would be coming in from all over the world. The most accepted place to change money would be in the courtyard of the Temple: the fear of God in His own House (in theory if not actuality) would keep the money changers straight.

The Temple is where people from afar bought animals for the Passover offering. The animal had to be whole and healthy. If it wasn't, it wasn't acceptible as an offering. Therefore, instead of bringing all kinds of animals over mountains and over rivers, it made lots of sense to buy the necessary animals at the Temple.

The sellers might not have known all of the various currencies, but had perfect weights geared for Shekels. Therefore, the money changers were absolutely necessary and vital for any out of town exchange. Also, if there were questions, the High Court would be onhand to help with checking weights and measures, and whatever discrepencies arose.

Now, I'm pretty sure that as a non-Jew you are not at all familiar with what Jewish families do in preparation for the holiday of Passover. It is a complicated affair, making sure that we have no Leavening in our possession, and all kinds of things of that nature. Then envision that after all of that is taken care of, the family needs to purchase last minute items to be ready for the Passover Seder. Envision a Christmas dinner but far more elaborate and far more rules, if you will.

And then there is the securing the lodgings, for all of the Jews have to be in Jerusalem (in the OLD CITY of Jerusalem). Millions of Jews had to be there, and involved, and making sure who was Pure and who was Unpure, so who was allowed to go to the Temple, and who would be allowed to eat from the sacrifices.

There are already so many odds and ends and complications of a Passover celebration, and I'm envisioning a Passover celebration in the Temple, and that is assuming it all goes well without a hitch. And realize that millions of Jews are doing this all at the same time...

Now envision a madman turning over the tables that have the currency necessary for purchase. The goatherder doesn't know the conversion of Babylonian Zuzim or Roman Dinar, but he knows Israeli Shekels. And the spice merchant. Or which ever merchant counted on the currency exchangers being there and doing their jobs.

How many innocent Jewish pilgrims had to wait while Jesus went on his unnecessary tirade about profaning the holy, or whatever it was that he was on about, and then had to wait for the people in charge of the currency exchange to set the tables back up, with all of the money resorted and the balances reset? To the people who had to suffer a delay in their Passover preparations, so Jesus could make his wrong-headed tirade?

I will never forgive him for that. I doubt that the people of his time didn't shed too many tears when he was killed.

The Romans were evil, but Jesus wasn't very nice, either.

I think you should include the fact that they were exploiting the people and over charging for even the smallest birds.

[Dave.]

• Phil. 2:5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
Phil. 2:6 Who, being IN THE FORM OF GOD, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
Phil. 2:7 But MADE HIMSELF of no reputation, and TOOK UPON HIM the form of a servant, and was MADE IN THE LIKENESS OF MEN:
Phil. 2:8 And being found in fashion AS A MAN, he HUMBLED HIMSELF, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

IMHO, that makes it quite clear that Jesus existed before He came to earth and MADE HIMSELF INTO A MAN. That also makes it quite clear IMHO that Jesus WAS GOD BEFORE HE MADE HIMSELF INTO A MAN. How could He make HIMSELF into a man if He was not God IN THE FIRST PLACE??

I didn't read the thread, but here is a passage that is usually overlooked. It's very revealing. There is a "Me" that is seperate from the "body", and is speaking to a "You".


Hebrews 10:5 Therefore, when He came into the world, He said:


“ Sacrifice and offering You did not desire,
But a body You have prepared for Me.
6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin
You had no pleasure.
7 Then I said, ‘Behold, I have come—
In the volume of the book it is written of Me—
To do Your will, O God.’”

[Mathius]

Just for you, Mathius-
[...]
That's just from the "Gospels."

There are many more in Paul's epistles. Want to see them, also?

DispensationalJim


No thanks I was wanting to see if Jesus called himself God, not his followers refering to Jesus as God.

[DispensationalJim]

You may ignore the verses shown if you like, Mathius, but now you must show me and all the rest of us "trinitarians" where Jesus -- based on the verses I gave you -- ever straightened them out when they said that He WAS GOD.

If Jesus knew He was NOT God, would or should He not have corrected them? He certainly had plenty of opportunities to deny such a heretical idea if it was not true.

For instance, let us take John 20:28: "And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God."

So, did Jesus say to Thomas, "Oh no, Thomas, I AM NOT GOD."?

Here is what Jesus said to Thomas:
John 20:29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou HAST BELIEVED: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.
John 20:30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:


So go to it, Mathius, and show us where Jesus said, "Oh no, I am not God."

DispensationalJim

[Harmonious]

I think you should include the fact that they were exploiting the people and over charging for even the smallest birds.

We don't know that. The Rabbis of the Sanhedrin would have addressed the issue if it was indeed an issue.

I've seen it over again: Just because Jesus said it was so doesn't make it so.

[DispensationalJim]

JIM'S RESPONSE to HARMONIOUS from a "Jews for Judaism" web-site-
"Messiah: The Criteria"

PART ONE

First, Harmonious, I must apologize that I will be using New Testament verses to respond to the "allegations" of the web site, but -- I ask you -- how else could anyone answer such "charges"?
================================
From "Jews for Judaism":
First of all, Messiah must be Jewish - "...you may appoint a king over you, whom the L-rd your G-d shall choose: one from among your brethren shall you set as king over you." (Deuteronomy 17:15)
-------------------------------------------
JIM SAYS: The entire New Testament is full of proof that Jesus was a Jew.
Just a couple of examples:
Matt. 15:24 But he (Jesus) answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
John 4:9 Then saith the woman of Samaria unto him (Jesus), How is it that thou, being a Jew, askest drink of me, which am a woman of Samaria? for the Jews have no dealings with the Samaritans.

Many wanted to accept Jesus AS KING, but the Jewish leaders rejected that idea. After all, if Jesus "took over" as Messiah, they would have needed to relinquish their "power" over the people, especially since He ignored them and appointed His own group of "apostles."

Jesus also taught that He would return to earth later as the King, as His followers clearly accepted once He had resurrected.

1Tim. 6:15 Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;
Rev. 17:14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.
Rev. 19:16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.
===========================

Jews for Judaism: He must be a member of the tribe of Judah - "The staff shall not depart from Judah, nor the sceptre from between his feet..." (Genesis 49:10)
-------------------------------------------
JIM: Matt. 2:2 Saying, Where is he that is born King of the Jews? for we have seen his star in the east, and are come to worship him.... :6 And thou Bethlehem, in the land of Juda, art not the least among the princes of Juda: for out of thee shall come a Governor, that shall rule my people Israel.
=========================

Jews for Judaism: To be a member of the tribe of Judah, the person must have a biological father who is a member of the tribe of Judah.
------------------------------------------
JIM: The twelve apostles of Jesus were all Jewish. The writers of the New Testament were all Jews. Yet, not one of them ever said that Jesus could not be the Messiah because the Messiah MUST HAVE A BIOLOGICAL FATHER. They all KNEW that Jesus was The Messiah. They all also KNEW that Jesus was born of a virgin since they all knew Mary quite well.
The apostle Paul was a devout and WELL-EDUCATED JEW. He calls Jesus by the name "Christ" (or Messiah) at least 500 times!
• John 1:41 He first findeth his own brother Simon, and saith unto him, We have found the MESSIAS, which is, being interpreted, the CHRIST.
• Matt. 1:16 And Jacob begat Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ.
• Matt. 1:17 So all the generations from Abraham to David are fourteen generations; and from David until the carrying away into Babylon are fourteen generations; and from the carrying away into Babylon unto Christ are fourteen generations.
• Matt. 16:16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
• Matt. 22:42 Saying, What think ye of Christ? whose son is he? They say unto him, The Son of David.
• Mark 1:1 The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God;
• Luke 2:11 For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord.
• Luke 4:41 And devils also came out of many, crying out, and saying, Thou art Christ the Son of God. And he rebuking them suffered them not to speak: for they knew that he was Christ.
• Luke 24:46 And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:
• John 4:25 The woman saith unto him, I know that Messias cometh, which is called Christ: when he is come, he will tell us all things.
• John 4:42 And said unto the woman, Now we believe, not because of thy saying: for we have heard him ourselves, and know that this is indeed the Christ, the Saviour of the world.
• John 6:69 And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God
• John 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
• John 20:31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.
• Acts 2:36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
• Acts 17:3 Opening and alleging, that Christ must needs have suffered, and risen again from the dead; and that this Jesus, whom I preach unto you, is Christ.
• Acts 18:5 And when Silas and Timotheus were come from Macedonia, Paul was pressed in the spirit, and testified to the Jews that Jesus was Christ.
• Acts 18:28 For he mightily convinced the Jews, and that publickly, shewing by the scriptures that Jesus was Christ.
• Rom. 1:3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;
• Rom. 15:8 Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers:
• Rom. 16:20 And the God of peace shall bruise Satan under your feet shortly. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you. Amen.
• Heb. 9:24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:
• Heb. 9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.
• 2Pet. 1:11 For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.
• Jude 1:21 Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.
• Rev. 1:5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,
• Rev. 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
• Rev. 12:10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
• Rev. 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
=========================

PART 2 TO FOLLOW...

[DispensationalJim]

JIM'S RESPONSE to "Messiah : The Criteria" - PART TWO

JEWS FOR JUDAISM: He must be a direct male descendant of King David and King Solomon, his son - "And when your days (David) are fulfilled, and you shall sleep with your fathers, I will set up your seed after you, who shall issue from your bowels, and I will establish his kingdom. He shall build a house for my name, and I will make firm the throne of his kingdom forever..." (2 Samuel 7:12 - 13)
-------------------------------------------
JIM:
• Luke 1:32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:
• Matt. 1:17 So all the generations from Abraham to David are fourteen generations; and from David until the carrying away into Babylon are fourteen generations; and from the carrying away into Babylon unto Christ are fourteen generations.
• 2Tim. 2:8 Remember that Jesus Christ of the seed of David was raised from the dead according to my gospel:
• Rev. 5:5 And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.
• Rev. 22:16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.
===========================

JEWS FOR JUDAISM - The genealogy of the New Testament is inconsistent. While it gives two accounts of the genealogy of Joseph, it states clearly that he is not the biological father of Jesus. One of the genealogies is through Nathan and not Solomon altogether!
----------------------------------------------
JIM: The genealogy found in Matthew 1:1-16 is obviously that of Joseph, but the one found in Luke 3 is that of Mary. There is no Scripture which eliminates the possibility of God Himself making Himself into a "son of David" and assuming that position.
• Rev. 5:5 And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.
• Rev. 22:16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.
===========================

JEWS FOR JUDAISM - He must gather the Jewish people from exile and return them to Israel -"And he shall set up a banner for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth." (Isaiah 11:12)
Are all Jews living in Israel? Have all Jews EVER lived in Israel since the time of Jesus?
----------------------------------------------------
JIM: Jesus constantly preached "the gospel of the KINGDOM." Based on His teaching that He came to His people, Israel, we know that THE KINGDOM WILL BE FOR ISRAEL.
• Matt. 9:35 And Jesus went about all the cities and villages, teaching in their synagogues, and preaching the gospel of the kingdom, and healing every sickness and every disease among the people.
• Matt. 19:28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
• Matt. 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
• Matt. 25:34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
• Matt. 26:29 But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father’s kingdom.
• Acts 1:6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?
==============================
JEWS FOR JUDAISM -
He must rebuild the Temple in Jerusalem - "...and I will set my sanctuary in their midst forever and my tabernacle shall be with them.." (Ezekiel 37:26 - 27)
At last check, there is NO Temple in Jerusalem. And worse, it was shortly after Jesus died that the Temple was DESTROYED! Just the opposite of this prophecy!
--------------------------------------------------
JIM: That is of course yet to come when Jesus sets up HIS THRONE AND THE KINGDOM IN JERUSALEM.
• Rev. 3:12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.
• Rev. 7:15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.
===============================
JEWS FOR JUDAISM:
He will rule at a time of world-wide peace - "...they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning hooks; nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war anymore." (Micah 4:3)
Have you seen a newspaper lately? Are we living in a state of complete world peace? Has there ever been peace since the time of Jesus?
-----------------------------------------------------
JIM:
• Is. 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
• Matt. 19:28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes o
• Rev. 1:4 John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne;
===============================
JEWS FOR JUDAISM:
He will rule at a time when the Jewish people will observe G-d's commandments - "My servant David shall be king over them; and they shall all have one shepherd. They shall follow My ordinances and be careful to observe My statutes." (Ezekiel 37:24)
The Torah is the Jewish guide to life, and its commandments are the ones referred to here. Do all Jews observe all the commandments? Christianity, in fact, often discourages observance of the commandments in Torah, in complete opposition to this prophecy.
-----------------------------------------------------
JIM:
• Rev. 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
• Rev. 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
===================================
JEWS FOR JUDAISM:
He will rule at a time when all people will come to acknowledge and serve one G-d - "And it shall come to pass that from one new moon to another and from one Sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before Me, says the L-rd" (Isaiah 66:23)
there are still millions if not billions of people in the world today who adhere to paganistic and polytheistic religions. It is clear that we have not yet seen this period of human history unfold
-----------------------------------------------------
JIM:
• Rev. 7:15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.
• Rev. 22:3 And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him: -
===============================.

PART THREE TO FOLLOW...

[DispensationalJim]

RESPONSE TO HARMONIOUS FROM DISPENSATIONALJIM-
PART THREE

===========================
JEWS FOR JUDAISM SAID:
All of these criteria are best stated in the book of Ezekiel Chapter 37 verses 24-28:
And David my servant shall be king over them; and they shall all have one shepherd. they shall also follow My judgments and observe My statutes, and do them. And they shall dwell in the land that I have given to Yaakov my servant, in which your fathers have dwelt and they shall dwell there, they and their children, and their children's children forever; and my servant David shall be their prince forever. Moreover, I will make a covenant of peace with them, it shall be an everlasting covenant with them, which I will give them; and I will multiply them and I will set my sanctuary in the midst of them forevermore. And my tabernacle shall be with them: and I will be their G-d and they will be my people. Then the nations shall know that I am the L-rd who sanctifies Israel, when My sanctuary will be in the midst of them forevermore.
If an individual fails to fulfill even one of these conditions, then he cannot be "The Messiah." A careful analysis of these criteria shows us that to date, no one has fulfilled every condition.
--------------------------------------------------
JIM SAID:
• John 8:28 Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.
• John 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
• John 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
• John 12:26 If any man serve me, let him follow me; and where I am, there shall also my servant be: if any man serve me, him will my Father honour.
• Rev. 1:8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.
• Rev. 1:11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.
• Rev. 1:17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.
• Rev. 21:6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.
• Rev. 22:13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
• Rev. 22:16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.
==========================================

OK, Harmonious... there is a small portion of the verses which we Christians believe demonstrate clearly that Jesus was, is, and will be The Messiah/Christ.

Since we have a long list (over 300) of prophecies from the Old Testament which we believe Jesus fulfilled TO THE LETTER (I posted many of them quite a while back), I could go on and on in this manner, but if you will not even consider the EVIDENCE, then I guess I would be wasting my time.

DispensationalJim

[Harmonious]

JIM'S RESPONSE to HARMONIOUS from a "Jews for Judaism" web-site-
"Messiah: The Criteria"

PART ONE

First, Harmonious, I must apologize that I will be using New Testament verses to respond to the "allegations" of the web site, but -- I ask you -- how else could anyone answer such "charges"?Fair enough. But there is always an answer that explains why Jesus wasn't him. Let's go.
================================
From "Jews for Judaism":
First of all, Messiah must be Jewish - "...you may appoint a king over you, whom the L-rd your G-d shall choose: one from among your brethren shall you set as king over you." (Deuteronomy 17:15)
-------------------------------------------
JIM SAYS: The entire New Testament is full of proof that Jesus was a Jew.
Just a couple of examples:
Matt. 15:24 But he (Jesus) answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
John 4:9 Then saith the woman of Samaria unto him (Jesus), How is it that thou, being a Jew, askest drink of me, which am a woman of Samaria? for the Jews have no dealings with the Samaritans. My brother is also Jewish. That is just the very beginning. Believe it or not, no one is contesting that Jesus is Jewish.

Many wanted to accept Jesus AS KING, but the Jewish leaders rejected that idea. After all, if Jesus "took over" as Messiah, they would have needed to relinquish their "power" over the people, especially since He ignored them and appointed His own group of "apostles."There is a problem right there. See, if Jesus would have "taken over" as Messiah (which he couldn't for other reasons), he would not have taken power away from the Jewish leaders. He would have enforced their rulings.

See, the Messiah is supposed to be on the same page as the Sanhedrin. If they aren't on the same page, the dude has to go, and isn't worth his weight in salt.

Jesus also taught that He would return to earth later as the King, as His followers clearly accepted once He had resurrected.

1Tim. 6:15 Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;
Rev. 17:14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.
Rev. 19:16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS. It is lovely that Jesus said so, but you see, Jesus didn't use the Jewish sources. The Messiah is supposed to get it right the first time. While Jesus might have taught that he would return, the rest of the Jewish community is waiting for someone to come and do everything right the first time.

Except for those loony Lubavitchers (that is to say, there are Lubavitchers who are not loony - only the loony ones have this belief), who are convinced that the Rebbe will come back and finish the job, not unlike Christians. But all other Orthodox Jews know that the guy will get it done on the first try.
===========================

Jews for Judaism: He must be a member of the tribe of Judah - "The staff shall not depart from Judah, nor the sceptre from between his feet..." (Genesis 49:10)
-------------------------------------------
JIM: Matt. 2:2 Saying, Where is he that is born King of the Jews? for we have seen his star in the east, and are come to worship him.... :6 And thou Bethlehem, in the land of Juda, art not the least among the princes of Juda: for out of thee shall come a Governor, that shall rule my people Israel.If you believe in the virgin birth, it doesn't matter who his mother is. If the father isn't from Judah, neither is the son. And if you believe that God is the father, then the son has no tribe.
=========================

Jews for Judaism: To be a member of the tribe of Judah, the person must have a biological father who is a member of the tribe of Judah.
------------------------------------------
JIM: The twelve apostles of Jesus were all Jewish. The writers of the New Testament were all Jews. Yet, not one of them ever said that Jesus could not be the Messiah because the Messiah MUST HAVE A BIOLOGICAL FATHER.Then the apostles were obviously ignorant of simple Jewish law. They all KNEW that Jesus was The Messiah. They all also KNEW that Jesus was born of a virgin since they all knew Mary quite well.Dude, Mary's being a virgin is something that only Mary and God knew. No one else could possibly know that.

It is enough proof, according to Jewish law, that if a woman is pregnant, then she obviously isn't a virgin.

Whether God was the father, or Zebulun the goatherder, it is all the same to me. If Mary's husband Joseph wasn't the biological father, Jesus might have been a Halachic bastard, not belonging to any tribe, and not being permitted to marry anyone Jewish, either, but another halachic bastard, or possibly a convert to Judaism, but I'd have to check on that.
The apostle Paul was a devout and WELL-EDUCATED JEW. He calls Jesus by the name "Christ" (or Messiah) at least 500 times! It doesn't matter HOW many times Paul said it, nor does it matter how well educated he was. If Paul went against the teachings of the Sanhedrin, he was dead wrong.

This is a community thing, you know. If you can't play nicely with the religious leaders of the entire Jewish world, you are not playing with the rules. And if Paul had to go against those rules, then Paul was out of line. No matter how smart he was, he was dead wrong.

[Harmonious]

JIM'S RESPONSE to "Messiah : The Criteria" - PART TWO

JEWS FOR JUDAISM: He must be a direct male descendant of King David and King Solomon, his son - "And when your days (David) are fulfilled, and you shall sleep with your fathers, I will set up your seed after you, who shall issue from your bowels, and I will establish his kingdom. He shall build a house for my name, and I will make firm the throne of his kingdom forever..." (2 Samuel 7:12 - 13)
-------------------------------------------
JIM:
• Luke 1:32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:
• Matt. 1:17 So all the generations from Abraham to David are fourteen generations; and from David until the carrying away into Babylon are fourteen generations; and from the carrying away into Babylon unto Christ are fourteen generations.
• 2Tim. 2:8 Remember that Jesus Christ of the seed of David was raised from the dead according to my gospel:
• Rev. 5:5 And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.
• Rev. 22:16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star. All of this is well and good, but if Jesus was born of a virgin birth, then it doesn't matter - Jesus is not connected biologically paternally to King David and King Solomon. I said before, and I'll say again - it doesn't matter who his mother is, as long as she was Jewish.
===========================

JEWS FOR JUDAISM - The genealogy of the New Testament is inconsistent. While it gives two accounts of the genealogy of Joseph, it states clearly that he is not the biological father of Jesus. One of the genealogies is through Nathan and not Solomon altogether!
----------------------------------------------
JIM: The genealogy found in Matthew 1:1-16 is obviously that of Joseph, but the one found in Luke 3 is that of Mary. There is no Scripture which eliminates the possibility of God Himself making Himself into a "son of David" and assuming that position.
• Rev. 5:5 And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.
• Rev. 22:16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star. If Joseph is not the biological father of Jesus, it doesn't matter. And Jews for Judaism was giving you the benefit of the doubt - since the only line that matters is that of the father, it was assumed that the line was Joseph's. If the geneology in Luke is that of Mary, then it assumes that whoever wrote this line were greater ignoramouses of Jewish law, as tribal lineage is only through the father. We don't care where the mother comes from, as long as she's Jewish.

And if he has no father, he has no tribe. Jewish law doesn't change because of a miracle that might or might not have happened.
===========================

JEWS FOR JUDAISM - He must gather the Jewish people from exile and return them to Israel -"And he shall set up a banner for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth." (Isaiah 11:12)
Are all Jews living in Israel? Have all Jews EVER lived in Israel since the time of Jesus?
----------------------------------------------------
JIM: Jesus constantly preached "the gospel of the KINGDOM." Based on His teaching that He came to His people, Israel, we know that THE KINGDOM WILL BE FOR ISRAEL.
• Matt. 9:35 And Jesus went about all the cities and villages, teaching in their synagogues, and preaching the gospel of the kingdom, and healing every sickness and every disease among the people.
• Matt. 19:28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
• Matt. 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
• Matt. 25:34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
• Matt. 26:29 But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father’s kingdom.
• Acts 1:6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?Forgive me love, but my family lives in America. As such, we are not in Israel. If Jesus did the job (dude, if the Rebbe did the job), every Jew that you know would be in Israel. Physically.

Preaching the kingdom of Israel is missing the boat. Jews are either physically in Israel, or we aren't. As we aren't the Messiah hasn't come yet.
==============================
JEWS FOR JUDAISM -
He must rebuild the Temple in Jerusalem - "...and I will set my sanctuary in their midst forever and my tabernacle shall be with them.." (Ezekiel 37:26 - 27)
At last check, there is NO Temple in Jerusalem. And worse, it was shortly after Jesus died that the Temple was DESTROYED! Just the opposite of this prophecy!
--------------------------------------------------
JIM: That is of course yet to come when Jesus sets up HIS THRONE AND THE KINGDOM IN JERUSALEM.
• Rev. 3:12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.
• Rev. 7:15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them. This is tantamount to agreeing that Jesus wasn't the Messiah. The right guy will get it right on the first try. There are no "do-overs."
===============================
JEWS FOR JUDAISM:
He will rule at a time of world-wide peace - "...they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning hooks; nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war anymore." (Micah 4:3)
Have you seen a newspaper lately? Are we living in a state of complete world peace? Has there ever been peace since the time of Jesus?
-----------------------------------------------------
JIM:
• Is. 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
• Matt. 19:28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes o
• Rev. 1:4 John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne;All of your citations are lovely. However, there is not worldwide peace. America is at war. Israel needs to talk about "peace process." Obviously, if it is a process, it isn't there yet. We keep talking about terrorists all the time. This is not world peace.

The Messiah will bring about world peace. If not, he isn't our guy.

[Harmonious]

===============================
JEWS FOR JUDAISM:
He will rule at a time when the Jewish people will observe G-d's commandments - "My servant David shall be king over them; and they shall all have one shepherd. They shall follow My ordinances and be careful to observe My statutes." (Ezekiel 37:24)
The Torah is the Jewish guide to life, and its commandments are the ones referred to here. Do all Jews observe all the commandments? Christianity, in fact, often discourages observance of the commandments in Torah, in complete opposition to this prophecy.
-----------------------------------------------------
JIM:
• Rev. 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
• Rev. 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. I don't understand the purpose of the quotes you posted, Jim. Jews do not fulfill all of the commandments.

In fact, the only Christian I've ever heard of who actively tries to fulfill all of the commandments is Jacob_Rising. But more to the point, it is about JEWS doing ALL of the laws listed in the Pentatuach, with the details listed in the Oral Law. The fact that there are Jews who are Christians means that they aren't following Jewish law all that well. While Revelations seems to praise people for keeping the commandments, which Christian do YOU know keeps Kosher? Which Christian do YOU know won't mess with electricity on Friday nights and Saturdays? I don't think that even the Seventh Day Adventists do all that Orthodox Jews do on Saturday.

They will say that these things are no longer necessary.

So while your quotes are interesting, they do not answer the point brought by Jews for Judaism.
===================================
JEWS FOR JUDAISM:
He will rule at a time when all people will come to acknowledge and serve one G-d - "And it shall come to pass that from one new moon to another and from one Sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before Me, says the L-rd" (Isaiah 66:23)
there are still millions if not billions of people in the world today who adhere to paganistic and polytheistic religions. It is clear that we have not yet seen this period of human history unfold
-----------------------------------------------------
JIM:
• Rev. 7:15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.
• Rev. 22:3 And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him: - Again, I am unsure of how this is relevant. There are pagans, there are atheists, there are people who don't believe in God as the Jews believe in God. Your quote is lovely, but I fail to see the relevance in answering the point of Jews for Judaism.

[Harmonious]

RESPONSE TO HARMONIOUS FROM DISPENSATIONALJIM-
PART THREE

===========================
JEWS FOR JUDAISM SAID:
All of these criteria are best stated in the book of Ezekiel Chapter 37 verses 24-28:
And David my servant shall be king over them; and they shall all have one shepherd. they shall also follow My judgments and observe My statutes, and do them. And they shall dwell in the land that I have given to Yaakov my servant, in which your fathers have dwelt and they shall dwell there, they and their children, and their children's children forever; and my servant David shall be their prince forever. Moreover, I will make a covenant of peace with them, it shall be an everlasting covenant with them, which I will give them; and I will multiply them and I will set my sanctuary in the midst of them forevermore. And my tabernacle shall be with them: and I will be their G-d and they will be my people. Then the nations shall know that I am the L-rd who sanctifies Israel, when My sanctuary will be in the midst of them forevermore.
If an individual fails to fulfill even one of these conditions, then he cannot be "The Messiah." A careful analysis of these criteria shows us that to date, no one has fulfilled every condition.
--------------------------------------------------
JIM SAID:
• John 8:28 Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.
• John 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
• John 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
• John 12:26 If any man serve me, let him follow me; and where I am, there shall also my servant be: if any man serve me, him will my Father honour.
• Rev. 1:8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.
• Rev. 1:11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.
• Rev. 1:17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.
• Rev. 21:6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.
• Rev. 22:13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
• Rev. 22:16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star. Jim, quotes of Jesus saying that he was impressive do not confirm that he did anything that Jews for Judaism said he did, other than be Jewish. He didn't do the other things that they said he needed to do.
==========================================

OK, Harmonious... there is a small portion of the verses which we Christians believe demonstrate clearly that Jesus was, is, and will be The Messiah/Christ.

Since we have a long list (over 300) of prophecies from the Old Testament which we believe Jesus fulfilled TO THE LETTER (I posted many of them quite a while back), I could go on and on in this manner, but if you will not even consider the EVIDENCE, then I guess I would be wasting my time.

DispensationalJimJim, the things you have written really didn't change what the Jews for Judaism people said. Jesus didn't fulfill ANYTHING other than being Jewish.

I'm sorry. This was an interesting exercise, however. Thank you for the discussion.

[DRS]

We don't know that. The Rabbis of the Sanhedrin would have addressed the issue if it was indeed an issue.

I've seen it over again: Just because Jesus said it was so doesn't make it so.

Actually we discussed it and I had a quote from Gamaliel, or someone related to him on this topic.

I am work right not but I will post it tommorow morning.

[Harmonious]

Actually we discussed it and I had a quote from Gamaliel, or someone related to him on this topic.

I am work right not but I will post it tommorow morning.

If your citation isn't from the Talmud, I'm not taking it.

Tomorrow will be Shabbat. I will either catch it tomorrow night or maybe Sunday.

[Warrior4God]

You may ignore the verses shown if you like, Mathius, but now you must show me and all the rest of us "trinitarians" where Jesus -- based on the verses I gave you -- ever straightened them out when they said that He WAS GOD.

If Jesus knew He was NOT God, would or should He not have corrected them? He certainly had plenty of opportunities to deny such a heretical idea if it was not true.

For instance, let us take John 20:28: "And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God."

So, did Jesus say to Thomas, "Oh no, Thomas, I AM NOT GOD."?

Here is what Jesus said to Thomas:
John 20:29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou HAST BELIEVED: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.
John 20:30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:


So go to it, Mathius, and show us where Jesus said, "Oh no, I am not God."

DispensationalJim

Christ says, “My father is greater than all,” John 10:29. Is not the father, then greater than the son?

Because he affirms, in another connection, and without the least qualification, “My Father is greater than I,” John 14:28

Because he virtually denies that he is God, when he exclaims, “Why callest thou me Good? There is none good but one, that is God,” Matt 19:17.

It appears he did say he was not, he never said he was God and there are many verses that declare who he was and he declares who he was

Our Lord and Saviour could not be God Because Christ is stated to be “the first-born of every creature,” Col. 1:15.

Because he is said to be “the beginning of the creation of God,” Rev. 3: 14.

Because the Scriptures affirm, in so many words, that “Jesus was made a little lower than the angels,” Heb. 2:9. Can God become lower than his creatures?

[Mathius]

So go to it, Mathius, and show us where Jesus said, "Oh no, I am not God."

DispensationalJim

Luke 2:49
And he said to them, "Why were you looking for me? Did you not know that I must be in my Father's house?"

Luke 4:18-19
(18) "The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he has anointed me to bring glad tidings to the poor. He has sent me to proclaim liberty to captives and recovery of sight to the blind, to let the oppressed go free, (19)and to proclaim a year acceptable to the Lord."

Luke9:35
Then from the cloud came a voice that said, "This is my chosen Son; listen to him."

Luke9:26
Whoever is ashamed of me and of my words, the Son of Man will be ashamed of when he comes in his glory and in the glory of the Father and of the holy angels.

Luke 10:18-22
(18) Jesus said, "I have observed Satan fall like lightning from the sky. (19) Behold, I have given you the power 'to tread upon serpents' and scorpions and upon the full force of the enemy and nothing will harm you. (20)Nevertheless, do not rejoice because the spirits are subject to you, but rejoice because your names are written in heaven." (21)At that very moment he rejoiced (in) the holy Spirit and said, "I give you praise, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, for although you have hidden these things from the wise and the learned you have revealed them to the childlike. Yes, Father, such has been your gracious will. (22)All things have been handed over to me by my Father. No one knows who the Son is except the Father, and who the Father is except the Son and anyone to whom the Son wishes to reveal him."


Just a few where he separates himself from God.

[DRS]

If your citation isn't from the Talmud, I'm not taking it.

Tomorrow will be Shabbat. I will either catch it tomorrow night or maybe Sunday.

If I remember corrctly it is from the Mishnah

[Harmonious]

If I remember corrctly it is from the Mishnah
Then I would love to see it, when you post it, and I get back to see it.

[DispensationalJim]

For Mathius and Warror, may I please repeat again the following obvious FACTS:

JESUS, WHO WAS GOD (JOHN 1:1, etc.), VOLUNTARILY MADE HIMSELF INTO A LOWLY MAN (PHIL. 2:5-7, etc.), VOLUNTARILY PUT HIMSELF IN SUBJECTION TO HIS FATHER. SO HE COULD THEN VOLUNTARILY DIE ON THE CROSS FOR ALL OF OUR SINS!

That is why He makes all those statements which show Him to be IN SUBJECTION TO HIS FATHER while here on this earth in a human body.

I for one am so very thankful that He was willing to do that so I can have forgiveness of my sins.

DispensationalJim

[Mathius]

For Mathius and Warror, may I please repeat again the following obvious FACTS:

JESUS, WHO WAS GOD (JOHN 1:1, etc.), VOLUNTARILY MADE HIMSELF INTO A LOWLY MAN (PHIL. 2:5-7, etc.), VOLUNTARILY PUT HIMSELF IN SUBJECTION TO HIS FATHER. SO HE COULD THEN VOLUNTARILY DIE ON THE CROSS FOR ALL OF OUR SINS!

That is why He makes all those statements which show Him to be IN SUBJECTION TO HIS FATHER while here on this earth in a human body.

I for one am so very thankful that He was willing to do that so I can have forgiveness of my sins.

DispensationalJim


So if Jesus was God then how could he have a father to be in subjection to?

[DispensationalJim]

Mathius wrote:
So if Jesus was God then how could he have a father to be in subjection to?

=============================
D-Jim replies:
Thank you, Mathius, for asking that question. But, my goodness, Mathius, have you not heard of the Trinity?

Please allow me to explain it to you. We believe that the One God consists of three parts or forms: God the Father, God the Son (Jesus Christ), and God the Holy Spirit. It is similar to the idea of one egg which consists of three distinct and separate parts: the shell, the yolk, and the white.

===========================
First, we have this very well known New Testament passage:
• John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word (GOD THE SON), and the Word (GOD THE SON) was with God (THE FATHER), and THE WORD **WAS** GOD (THE SON). 2 The same (GOD THE SON) was in the beginning WITH GOD (THE FATHER). 3 All things were made by him (GOD THE SON); and without him (GOD THE SON) was not any thing made that was made.
• John 1:14 And the Word (GOD THE SON) was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
---------------------------------
And then, from the apostle of the Gentiles (Paul), we have a unique word: "Godhead."

• Rom. 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; 19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. 20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and **GODHEAD**; so that they are without excuse: 21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools...

In that passage, the Godhead is clearly speaking of GOD THE FATHER.
----------------------------
Paul also wrote this:
• Col. 2:6 As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him: 7 Rooted and built up in him, and stablished in the faith, as ye have been taught, abounding therein with thanksgiving. 8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. 9 For in him (JESUS CHRIST) dwelleth all the fulness of the **GODHEAD** bodily. 10 And ye are complete in him (JESUS CHRIST), which IS the head of all principality and power:

In that passage, the Godhead is clearly speaking of Jesus Christ, GOD THE SON.

-------------------------------

Then, Paul wrote this wonderful passage:
• Phil. 2:5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:6 Who, **BEING IN THE FORM OF GOD**, thought it not robbery **TO BE EQUAL WITH GOD**: 7 But MADE HIMSELF of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: 8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

Since we already saw that God the Son made everything, then we also see that He used His creative abilities to re-create HIMSELF AS A MAN! Only God could do that!
======================
The idea of God the Holy Spirit takes me a little more time to explain, so I will save that for later.

Thanks again Mathius, for asking that important question.

DispensationalJim

[ChristopherHall]

So if Jesus was God then how could he have a father to be in subjection to?

It's quite simple really. Christ's humanity was in subjection to the incarnate Father.

The principle is called "Oneness" and teaches that in Christ we see two complete duel natures. God Almighty is a "spirit". God is omnipresent, omniscient, and omnipotent. God Almighty (the Father) chose to incarnate himself by combining his own divinity and person with FULL humanity. 2000 years ago the Father formed a human baby in the womb of a virgin called Mary. God chose to incarnate, or combine, his own divinity and personhood with this growing unborn humanity. When the child was born he was the Son of God. He was a baby who was inseparably ONE with the Father. This baby grew and learned as all children do. He learned to pray as all children do. He grew into a man...but this man was also...God. And his name is...Jesus. By virtue of being ONE with the Father it can be said that God became a man...and that man was God. Two complete, duel, natures. Distinct...but not separate. In one person...the man Jesus Christ. He is therefore BOTH the Father and the Son. He is both the Alpha and the Omega. He is both the beginning and the end. He is both the Lion and the Lamb. He is both the High Priest and the Sacrifice. He is both the Everlasting Father and the Prince of Peace. He is the one God manifest in Human flesh. He is...

...JESUS.

John 10:30
30 I and my Father are one. (KJV)

John 8:23-27
23And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world.
24I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.
25Then said they unto him, Who art thou? And Jesus saith unto them, Even the same that I said unto you from the beginning.
26I have many things to say and to judge of you: but he that sent me is true; and I speak to the world those things which I have heard of him.
27They understood not that he spake to them of the Father. (KJV)

One Almighty God manifest in the flesh. Not three divine persons, beings, or gods. ONE God.

Many people see the humanity of Jesus, which is distinct from the incarnate divinity of the Father, and mistaken it for a second divine being thus making two gods out of the mighty God in Christ Jesus. There isn't a Trinity. There is only one Almighty God in Christ Jesus.

There is no other "God" or "divine person" beside God...

Isa 44:6
6 Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God. (KJV)

[Mathius]

Mathius wrote:
So if Jesus was God then how could he have a father to be in subjection to?

=============================
D-Jim replies:
Thank you, Mathius, for asking that question. But, my goodness, Mathius, have you not heard of the Trinity?

Please allow me to explain it to you. We believe that the One God consists of three parts or forms: God the Father, God the Son (Jesus Christ), and God the Holy Spirit. It is similar to the idea of one egg which consists of three distinct and separate parts: the shell, the yolk, and the white.

===========================
First, we have this very well known New Testament passage:
• John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word (GOD THE SON), and the Word (GOD THE SON) was with God (THE FATHER), and THE WORD **WAS** GOD (THE SON). 2 The same (GOD THE SON) was in the beginning WITH GOD (THE FATHER). 3 All things were made by him (GOD THE SON); and without him (GOD THE SON) was not any thing made that was made.
• John 1:14 And the Word (GOD THE SON) was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

In the beginning was Brahman, with whom was the Word. And the Word is Brahman. - Vedas. Sorry I don't hold John 1:1-14 in high respects as the author is clearly "quoting" scripture that was written 2000 years before John and it comes from a polytheistic religion.



---------------------------------
And then, from the apostle of the Gentiles (Paul), we have a unique word: "Godhead."

• Rom. 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; 19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. 20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and **GODHEAD**; so that they are without excuse: 21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools...

In that passage, the Godhead is clearly speaking of GOD THE FATHER.

18For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, [19]because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. [20]For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse. [21]For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened. [22]Professing to be wise, they became fools,

hmm my passage is different and doesn't use Godhead but God. This passage has nothing to do with Jesus being God but the wrath of God torwards non-believers.


----------------------------
Paul also wrote this:
• Col. 2:6 As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him: 7 Rooted and built up in him, and stablished in the faith, as ye have been taught, abounding therein with thanksgiving. 8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. 9 For in him (JESUS CHRIST) dwelleth all the fulness of the **GODHEAD** bodily. 10 And ye are complete in him (JESUS CHRIST), which IS the head of all principality and power:

In that passage, the Godhead is clearly speaking of Jesus Christ, GOD THE SON.

[6]Therefore as you have received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk in Him, [7]having been firmly rooted and now being built up in Him and established in your faith, just as you were instructed, and overflowing with gratitude. [8]See to it that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deception, according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary principles of the world, rather than according to Christ. [9]For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form, [10]and in Him you have been made complete, and He is the head over all rule and authority;

Again this is Paul converting people and telling them to not give up faith...





-------------------------------

Then, Paul wrote this wonderful passage:
• Phil. 2:5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:6 Who, **BEING IN THE FORM OF GOD**, thought it not robbery **TO BE EQUAL WITH GOD**: 7 But MADE HIMSELF of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: 8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

Since we already saw that God the Son made everything, then we also see that He used His creative abilities to re-create HIMSELF AS A MAN! Only God could do that!

[/quote= Philippians 2:1-10]

Philippians 2
Be Like Christ
[1]Therefore if there is any encouragement in Christ, if there is any consolation of love, if there is any fellowship of the Spirit, if any affection and compassion, [2]make my joy complete by being of the same mind, maintaining the same love, united in spirit, intent on one purpose. [3]Do nothing from selfishness or empty conceit, but with humility of mind regard one another as more important than yourselves; [4]do not merely look out for your own personal interests, but also for the interests of others. [5]Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, [6]who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, [7]but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. [8]Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. [9]For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, [10]so that at the name of Jesus EVERY KNEE WILL BOW, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth,

Again if you would have continued even Paul doesn't claim Jesus was God. "[6]He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped," Jesus acted like God by not sinning and teaching us the way to the father but EVEN JESUS KNEW HE COULD NOT ACHIEVE THE LEVEL AT THAT OF WHICH GOD EXISTS. If you would have continued you would have seen: "[9]For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, "


======================
The idea of God the Holy Spirit takes me a little more time to explain, so I will save that for later.

Thanks again Mathius, for asking that important question.

DispensationalJim

Please do inform me the idea of God the Holy Spirit. Also go back and find different scripture for Jesus, and please include the passage in the context.

[Mathius]

John 10:30
30 I and my Father are one. (KJV)


Instead of just one line how about you don't take things out of context. The full text is below and you can see the real meaning behind that verse. The Father is within Jesus and Jesus does the works of God for the Father.


[25]Jesus answered them, "I told you and you do not believe. The works I do in my Father's name testify to me. [26]But you do not believe, because you are not among my sheep. [27]My sheep hear my voice; I know them, and they follow me. [28]I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish. No one can take them out of my hand. [29]My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one can take them out of the Father's hand. [30]The Father and I are one." [31]The Jews again picked up rocks to stone him. [32]Jesus answered them, "I have shown you many good works from my Father. For which of these are you trying to stone me?" [33]The Jews answered him, "We are not stoning you for a good work but for blasphemy. You, a man, are making yourself God." [34]Jesus answered them, "Is it not written in your law, 'I said, "You are gods"'? [35]If it calls them gods to whom the word of God came, and scripture cannot be set aside, [36]can you say that the one whom the Father has consecrated 16 and sent into the world blasphemes because I said, 'I am the Son of God'? [37]If I do not perform my Father's works, do not believe me; [38]but if I perform them, even if you do not believe me, believe the works, so that you may realize (and understand) that the Father is in me and I am in the Father."


John 8:23-27
23And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world.
24I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.
25Then said they unto him, Who art thou? And Jesus saith unto them, Even the same that I said unto you from the beginning.
26I have many things to say and to judge of you: but he that sent me is true; and I speak to the world those things which I have heard of him.
27They understood not that he spake to them of the Father. (KJV)


[17]Even in your law it is written that the testimony of two men can be verified. [18]I testify on my behalf and so does the Father who sent me." [19]So they said to him, "Where is your father?" Jesus answered, "You know neither me nor my Father. If you knew me, you would know my Father also." [20]He spoke these words while teaching in the treasury in the temple area. But no one arrested him, because his hour had not yet come. [21]He said to them again, "I am going away and you will look for me, but you will die in your sin. Where I am going you cannot come." [22]So the Jews said, "He is not going to kill himself, is he, because he said, 'Where I am going you cannot come'?" [23]He said to them, "You belong to what is below, I belong to what is above. You belong to this world, but I do not belong to this world. [24]That is why I told you that you will die in your sins. For if you do not believe that I AM, you will die in your sins." [25]So they said to him, "Who are you?" Jesus said to them, "What I told you from the beginning. [26]I have much to say about you in condemnation. But the one who sent me is true, and what I heard from him I tell the world." [27] They did not realize that he was speaking to them of the Father. [28]So Jesus said (to them), "When you lift up the Son of Man, then you will realize that I AM, and that I do nothing on my own, but I say only what the Father taught me. [29]The one who sent me is with me. He has not left me alone, because I always do what is pleasing to him." [30]Because he spoke this way, many came to believe in him.

Again stop taking things out of context. Jesus repeatedly refers to himself and his father as separate. Why would God say "I always do what is pleasing to him" to please himself? If Jesus was God why would he say, "I do nothing on my own, but I say only what the Father taught me"? There are others in the passage I quoted above in bold.


One Almighty God manifest in the flesh. Not three divine persons, beings, or gods. ONE God.

Many people see the humanity of Jesus, which is distinct from the incarnate divinity of the Father, and mistaken it for a second divine being thus making two gods out of the mighty God in Christ Jesus. There isn't a Trinity. There is only one Almighty God in Christ Jesus.

There is no other "God" or "divine person" beside God...

Isa 44:6
6 Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God. (KJV)


The only problem with believing that Jesus is God is that there is NOTHING that Jesus said that would lead you to believe that he is God. I do not claim that there is a trinity or that Jesus is God, but that Jesus is a messanger. I will prolly go to hell but based on the scripture there is nothing there to infer that Jesus is God, is a part of God, or is on the same level as God.

[DRS]

Then I would love to see it, when you post it, and I get back to see it.


This prompted Simeon the son of Gamaliel to declare: “By this Temple! I will not suffer the night to pass by before they cost but a [silver] denar.” On that very day the price was drastically reduced.—Keritot 1:7

The reason for the over charging being allowed to go on for so long seems to be from the writings of Josephus that some in charge of the temple were benifitting.

[DispensationalJim]

Dear Mathius...

Do you not believe the Bible at all??

Do you not believe that Jesus Christ died for your sins?

Do you not believe that Jesus Christ rose from the dead?

Just wondering based on your recent statements.

DispensationalJim

[Mathius]

Why didn't you just ask if I was christian?

Dear Mathius...
Do you not believe the Bible at all??
DispensationalJim

How do you believe in something man has made. By saying it is infalable you are putting it on par with God. Is the bible God? Do I read the bible every day, meditate on what I read, and ask God for help interpretting to better my life? Then I am guilty of that charge.

Dear Mathius...
Do you not believe that Jesus Christ died for your sins?
DispensationalJim

John 17:1-10
[1]When Jesus had said this, he raised his eyes to heaven and said, "Father, the hour has come. Give glory to your son, so that your son may glorify you, [2]just as you gave him authority over all people, so that he may give eternal life to all you gave him. [3]Now this is eternal life, that they should know you, the only true God, and the one whom you sent, Jesus Christ. [4]I glorified you on earth by accomplishing the work that you gave me to do. [5]Now glorify me, Father, with you, with the glory that I had with you before the world began. [6]"I revealed your name 5 to those whom you gave me out of the world. They belonged to you, and you gave them to me, and they have kept your word. [7]Now they know that everything you gave me is from you, [8]because the words you gave to me I have given to them, and they accepted them and truly understood that I came from you, and they have believed that you sent me. [9]I pray for them. I do not pray for the world but for the ones you have given me, because they are yours, [10]
and everything of mine is yours and everything of yours is mine, and I have been glorified in them.

Dear Mathius...
Do you not believe that Jesus Christ rose from the dead?
DispensationalJim

John 20:11-18
[11]But Mary stayed outside the tomb weeping. And as she wept, she bent over into the tomb [12]and saw two angels in white sitting there, one at the head and one at the feet where the body of Jesus had been. [13]And they said to her, "Woman, why are you weeping?" She said to them, "They have taken my Lord, and I don't know where they laid him." [14]When she had said this, she turned around and saw Jesus there, but did not know it was Jesus. [15]Jesus said to her, "Woman, why are you weeping? Whom are you looking for?" She thought it was the gardener and said to him, "Sir, if you carried him away, tell me where you laid him, and I will take him." [16]Jesus said to her, "Mary!" She turned and said to him in Hebrew, "Rabbouni," which means Teacher. [17]Jesus said to her, "Stop holding on to me, 10 for I have not yet ascended to the Father. But go to my brothers and tell them, 'I am going to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.'" [18]Mary of Magdala went and announced to the disciples, "I have seen the Lord," and what he told her.

Dear Mathius...
Just wondering based on your recent statements.
DispensationalJim

Are you a polytheist?

Isa 44:6
[6] Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.

[Chill-Factor]

People would be coming in from all over the world. The most accepted place to change money would be in the courtyard of the Temple: the fear of God in His own House (in theory if not actuality) would keep the money changers straight.

LOL....are we talking about descendants of those God fearing golden calf worshippers? I can just imagine how wild and corrupt they had become, with no prophets on the scene, for four hundred years....GET REAL!!!

[Warrior4God]

LOL....are we talking about descendants of those God fearing golden calf worshippers? I can just imagine how wild and corrupt they had become, with no prophets on the scene, for four hundred years....GET REAL!!!

A very good point
Seems to me the people in the temple could have been the same people that wanted Christ crucfied and he did nothing wrong, he was innocent.
Yea they were good religious people there huh

[Harmonious]

This prompted Simeon the son of Gamaliel to declare: “By this Temple! I will not suffer the night to pass by before they cost but a [silver] denar.” On that very day the price was drastically reduced.—Keritot 1:7

The reason for the over charging being allowed to go on for so long seems to be from the writings of Josephus that some in charge of the temple were benifitting.

Okay. I could see that.

But somehow, I don't think that Jesus' display was what brought Shimon ben Gamliel that conclusion.

[DispensationalJim]

Thank you, Mathius, for responding to my questions.

Your answers seemed a little vague and indirect to me, so to be more specific, do you believe the following verses?

Gal. 1:10 For do I now persuade men, or God? or do I seek to please men? for if I yet pleased men, I should not be the servant of Christ.
Gal. 1:11 But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man.
Gal. 1:12 For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.

Eph. 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph. 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

1Cor. 15:1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
1Cor. 15:2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
1Cor. 15:3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;

Mathius, different people have many ways to "define" a Christian. How would you personally define a Christian?

Do you feel that you must...
A. interpret the Word of God for yourself, or
B. let someone else interpret it for you, or
C. just study it and accept it as the Word of God?

DispensationalJim

[DispensationalJim]

Ooops... forgot to answer your question, Mathius.

You asked me: Are you a polytheist?

My response:
If I believe that the three parts of an egg make up one egg, am I a polyeggist?

Jim

[Mathius]

Thank you, Mathius, for responding to my questions.

Your answers seemed a little vague and indirect to me, so to be more specific, do you believe the following verses?

Gal. 1:10 For do I now persuade men, or God? or do I seek to please men? for if I yet pleased men, I should not be the servant of Christ.
Gal. 1:11 But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man.
Gal. 1:12 For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.

Eph. 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph. 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

1Cor. 15:1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
1Cor. 15:2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
1Cor. 15:3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
DispensationalJim

They were not vague. I told you that I live by the teachings of the bible and I gave you verses of what I believe.

Thank you, Mathius, for responding to my questions.

Mathius, different people have many ways to "define" a Christian. How would you personally define a Christian?

Do you feel that you must...
A. interpret the Word of God for yourself, or
B. let someone else interpret it for you, or
C. just study it and accept it as the Word of God?

DispensationalJim

The answer to your second question is none of the above. I read the bible every day, meditate on what I read, and ask God for help interpretting to better my life. A christian can't just do one or all of the above for if he doesn't LIVE by what is "preached" to him (whether he reads it or an actually preacher preaches the word) he is not a christian.

[DispensationalJim]

Thanks again, Mathius, for your answers.

Here is what I am getting at, in case you haven't already figured it out.

I believe an individual is SAVED BY FAITH IN THE FULL PAYMENT MADE BY JESUS CHRIST ON THE CROSS FOR ALL OF THEIR SINS. That salvation is immediate and eternal based on the faith of the individual and on the GRACE OF JESUS CHRIST, and is NOT BASED ON ANY OF OUR WORKS.

That is why I gave the verses earlier from the Pauline epistles.

Now, I am assuming from what you have said that you believe that noone is saved until the end of their life, and then you are saved only if you have "lived the life," and if you have sinned or failed to live up to some certain portion of the Scriptures, you will not be saved?

Is that what you are actually saying, or do I need further explanation?

I have lots more, but I'll await your answers to those questions.

Jim

[Andrew_980]

What burns me more than the trinity is the names, there was no J in the hebrew language of the time so his name could not have been jesus!

[Fire Watch]

What burns me more than the trinity is the names, there was no J in the hebrew language of the time so his name could not have been jesus!
1. Jesus should be capitalized.:naughty:
2. That would also mean his name isnt Jehova.

[Andrew_980]

1: I don't capitolize most of the time
2:exactly

[Fire Watch]

Andrew, what then IS his name?

[Andrew_980]

from the oldest sources i have been able to study it was something like Yashua, wich suprizes me that it wasn't corrupted into joshua instead of Jesus

[Harmonious]

from the oldest sources i have been able to study it was something like Yashua, wich suprizes me that it wasn't corrupted into joshua instead of JesusThere is no accounting for some of the Anglicanization...

[Fire Watch]

from the oldest sources i have been able to study it was something like Yashua, wich suprizes me that it wasn't corrupted into joshua instead of Jesus
Then you arent looking hard enough. It goes without saying that the English name "Jesus" is not in the original Greek manuscripts. The English language did not yet exist. It is true that Peter did not say "Jesus" was the Messiah’s name, but neither did He say that His name was the Paleo-Hebraic spelling/pronunciation of the modern Yeshua. Peter said His name was Iesous, the Greek name for Jesus.

[laurasdad]

Wow. I see so much that is taken out of context that I don't even know where to begin.

You've got that right. My name's not in the Bible, but Jesus came to save me nevertheless.

[Mathius]

Now, I am assuming from what you have said that you believe that noone is saved until the end of their life, and then you are saved only if you have "lived the life," and if you have sinned or failed to live up to some certain portion of the Scriptures, you will not be saved?


Correct but with a slight twist which I won't go into detail; it has to do with karma.

[DispensationalJim]

So, Mathius, you do not believe Jesus saves?

You believe you save yourself?

I'm so sorry to learn that.

Jim

[Mathius]

So, Mathius, you do not believe Jesus saves?

You believe you save yourself?

I'm so sorry to learn that.

Jim

I think the passages have been taken too literal to give people an easy way out. I believe it is only through the teaching that he has given us and not "because of" him that we get to heaven. If you believe that you can live a terror life, be saved and get to heaven then more power to you. I don't believe that a person that is saved at an early age but is the most hatefull, spitefull, self-centered person that ever lived will be saved. From what I read in the gospels those people are called hypocrits. I am not saying that we have to live a perfect life, no one is perfect, but we have to atleast try and live one.

[Warrior4God]

For Mathius and Warror, may I please repeat again the following obvious FACTS:

JESUS, WHO WAS GOD (JOHN 1:1, etc.), VOLUNTARILY MADE HIMSELF INTO A LOWLY MAN (PHIL. 2:5-7, etc.), VOLUNTARILY PUT HIMSELF IN SUBJECTION TO HIS FATHER. SO HE COULD THEN VOLUNTARILY DIE ON THE CROSS FOR ALL OF OUR SINS!

That is why He makes all those statements which show Him to be IN SUBJECTION TO HIS FATHER while here on this earth in a human body.

I for one am so very thankful that He was willing to do that so I can have forgiveness of my sins.

DispensationalJim
Philippians 2:6-8
(6) Who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped,
(7) but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men.
(8) Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. (NASB)


1. These verses in Philippians are very important to Trinitarian doctrine (although they have also caused division among Trinitarians) and they must be dealt with thoroughly. There are several arguments wrapped into these two verses, and we will deal with them point by point. First, many Trinitarians assert that the word “form,” which is the Greek word morphe, refers to Christ’s inner nature as God. This is so strongly asserted that in verse 6 the NIV has, “being in very nature God.” We do not believe that morphe refers to an “inner essential nature,” and we will give evidence that it refers to an outer form. Different lexicons have opposing viewpoints about the definition of morphe, to such a degree that we can think of no other word defined by the lexicons in such contradictory ways. We will give definitions from lexicons that take both positions, to show the differences between them.

Vine’s Lexicon has under “form”: “properly the nature or essence, not in the abstract, but as actually subsisting in the individual…it does not include in itself anything ‘accidental’ or separable, such as particular modes of manifestation.” Using lexicons like Vine’s, Trinitarians boldly make the case that the “nature” underlying Jesus’ human body was God. Trinitarian scholars like Vine contrast morphe, which they assert refers to an “inner, essential nature,” with schema, (in verse 8, and translated “appearance” above) which they assert refers to the outward appearance. We admit that there are many Trinitarian scholars who have written lexical entries or articles on the Greek word morphe and concluded that Christ must be God. A Trinitarian wanting to prove his point can quote from a number of them. However, we assert that these definitions are biased and erroneous. In addition, we could not find any non-Trinitarian scholars who agreed with the conclusion of the Trinitarian scholars, while many Trinitarian sources agree that morphe refers to the outward appearance and not an inner nature.

A study of other lexicons (many of them Trinitarian) gives a totally different picture than does Vine’s Lexicon. In Bullinger’s Critical Lexicon, morphe is given a one-word definition, “form.” The scholarly lexicon by Walter Bauer, translated and revised by Arndt and Gingrich, has under morphe, “form, outward appearance, shape.” The Theological Dictionary of the New Testament, edited by Gerhard Kittel, has “form, external appearance.” Kittel also notes that morphe and schema are often interchangeable. Robert Thayer, in his well-respected lexicon, has under morphe, “the form by which a person or thing strikes the vision; the external appearance.” Thayer says that the Greeks said that children reflect the appearance (morphe) of their parents, something easily noticed in every culture. Thayer also notes that some scholars try to make morphe refer to that which is intrinsic and essential, in contrast to that which is outward and accidental, but says, “the distinction is rejected by many.”

The above evidence shows that scholars disagree about the use of the word morphe in Philippians. When scholars disagree, and especially when it is believed that the reason for the disagreement is due to bias over a doctrinal issue, it is absolutely essential to do as much original research as possible. The real definition of morphe should become apparent as we check the sources available at the time of the New Testament. After all, the word was a common one in the Greek world. We assert that a study of the actual evidence clearly reveals that morphe does not refer to Christ’s inner essential being, but rather to an outward appearance.

From secular writings we learn that the Greeks used morphe to describe when the gods changed their appearance. Kittel points out that in pagan mythology, the gods change their forms (morphe), and especially notes Aphrodite, Demeter and Dionysus as three who did. This is clearly a change of appearance, not nature. Josephus, a contemporary of the Apostles, used morphe to describe the shape of statues (Bauer’s Lexicon).

Other uses of morphe in the Bible support the position that morphe refers to outward appearance. The Gospel of Mark has a short reference to the well-known story in Luke 24:13-33 about Jesus appearing to the two men on the road to Emmaus. Mark tells us that Jesus appeared “in a different form (morphe)” to these two men so that they did not recognize him (16:12). This is very clear. Jesus did not have a different “essential nature” when he appeared to the two disciples. He simply had a different outward appearance.

More evidence for the word morphe referring to the outward appearance can be gleaned from the Septuagint, a Greek translation of the Old Testament from about 250 BC. It was written because of the large number of Greek-speaking Jews in Israel and the surrounding countries (a result of Alexander the Great’s conquest of Egypt in 332 BC and his gaining control over the territory of Israel). By around 250 BC, so many Jews spoke Greek that a Greek translation of the Old Testament was made, which today is called the Septuagint. The Septuagint greatly influenced the Jews during the New Testament times. Some of the quotations from the Old Testament that appear in the New Testament are actually from the Septuagint, not the Hebrew text. Furthermore, there were many Greek-speaking Jews in the first-century Church. In fact, the first recorded congregational conflict occurred when Hebrew-speaking Jews showed prejudice against the Greek-speaking Jews (Acts 6:1).

The Jews translating the Septuagint used morphe several times, and it always referred to the outward appearance. Job says, “A spirit glided past my face, and the hair on my body stood on end. It stopped, but I could not tell what it was. A form (morphe) stood before my eyes, and I heard a hushed voice (Job 4:15 and 16). There is no question here that morphe refers to the outward appearance. Isaiah has the word morphe in reference to man-made idols: “The carpenter measures with a line and makes an outline with a marker; he roughs it out with chisels and marks it with compasses. He shapes it in the form (morphe) of man, of man in all his glory, that it may dwell in a shrine” (Isa. 44:13). It would be absurd to assert that morphe referred to “the essential nature” in this verse, as if a wooden carving could have the “essential nature” of man. The verse is clear: the idol has the “outward appearance” of a man. According to Daniel 3:19, after Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego refused to bow down to Nebuchadnezzar’s image, he became enraged and “the form (morphe) of his countenance” changed. The NASB says, “his facial expression” changed. Nothing in his nature changed, but the people watching could see that his outward appearance changed.

For still more documentation that the Jews used morphe to refer to the outward appearance, we turn to what is known as the “Apocrypha,” books written between the time of Malachi and Matthew. “Apocrypha” literally means “obscure” or “hidden away,” and these books are rightly not accepted by most Protestants as being part of the true canon, but are accepted by Roman Catholics and printed in Catholic Bibles. Our interest in them is due to the fact that they were written near the time of the writing of the New Testament, were known to the Jews at that time and contain the word morphe. In the Apocrypha, morphe is used in the same way that the Septuagint translators use it, i.e., as outward appearance. For example, in “The Wisdom of Solomon” is the following: “Their enemies heard their voices, but did not see their forms” (18:1). A study of morphe in the Apocrypha will show that it always referred to the outer form.


continued

[Warrior4God]

There is still more evidence. Morphe is the root word of some other New Testament words and is also used in compound words. These add further support to the idea that morphe refers to an appearance or outward manifestation. The Bible speaks of evil men who have a “form” (morphosis) of godliness (2 Tim. 3:5). Their inner nature was evil, but they had an outward appearance of being godly. On the Mount of Transfiguration, Christ was “transformed” (metamorphoomai) before the apostles (Matt. 17:2; Mark 9:2). They did not see Christ get a new nature, rather they saw his outward form profoundly change. Similarly, we Christians are to be “transformed” (metamorphoomai) by renewing our minds to Scripture. We do not get a new nature as we renew our minds, because we are already “partakers of the divine nature (2 Pet. 1:4), but there will be a change in us that we, and others, can tangibly experience. Christians who transform from carnal Christians, with all the visible activities of the flesh that lifestyle entails, to being Christ-like Christians, change in such a way that other people can “see” the difference. 2 Corinthians 3:18 says the same thing when it says that Christians will be “changed” (metamorphoomai) into the image of Christ. That we will be changed into an “image” shows us that the change is something visible on the outside.

We would like to make one more point before we draw a conclusion about “morphe.” If the point of the verse is to say that Jesus is God, then why not just say it? Of course God has the “essential nature” of God, so why would anyone make that point? This verse does not say, “Jesus, being God,” but rather, “being in the form of God.” Paul is reminding the Philippians that Jesus represented the Father in every possible way.

So what can we conclude about morphe? The Philippian church consisted of Jews and converted Greeks. From the Septuagint and their other writings, the Jews were familiar with morphe referring to the outward appearance, including the form of men and idols. To the Greeks, it also referred to the outward appearance, including the changing outward appearance of their gods and the form of statues. The only other New Testament use of morphe outside Philippians is in Mark, and there it refers to the outward appearance. Also, the words related to morphe clearly refer to an outward manifestation or appearance. We assert the actual evidence is clear: the word morphe refers to an outward appearance or manifestation. Jesus Christ was in the outward appearance of God, so much so that he said, “He who has seen me has seen the Father.” Christ always did the Father’s will, and perfectly represented his Father in every way.

Schema, as Kittel points out, can be synonymous with morphe, but it has more of an emphasis on outward trappings rather than outward appearance, and often points to that which is more transitory in nature, like the clothing we wear or an appearance we have for just a short time. As human beings, we always have the outward form (morphe) of human beings. Yet there is a sense in which our schema, our appearance, is always changing. We start as babies, and grow and develop, then we mature and age. This is so much the case that a person’s outward appearance is one of the most common topics of conversation between people when they meet.

Like the rest of us, Christ was fully human and had the outward form (morphe), of a human. However, because he always did the Father’s will and demonstrated godly behavior and obedience, he therefore had the outward “appearance” (morphe) of God also. Also, like the rest of us, his appearance (schema) regularly changed. Thus, in Philippians, 2:8 schema can be synonymous with morphe, or it can place an emphasis on the fact that the appearance Christ had as a human being was transitory in nature. The wording of Philippians 2:6-8 does not present us with a God-man, with whom none of us can identify. Rather, it presents us with a man just like we are, who grew and aged, yet who was so focused on God in every thought and deed that he perfectly represented the Father.

2. After saying that Christ was in the form of God, Philippians 2:6 goes on to say that Christ “did not consider equality with God something to be grasped” (NIV). This phrase is a powerful argument against the Trinity. If Jesus were God, then it would make no sense at all to say that he did not “grasp” at equality with God because no one grasps at equality with himself. It only makes sense to compliment someone for not seeking equality when he is not equal. Some Trinitarians say, “Well, he was not grasping for equality with the Father.” That is not what the verse says. It says Christ did not grasp at equality with God, which makes the verse nonsense if he were God.

[Warrior4God]

4. While Trinitarians have argued among themselves about the meaning of Philippians 2:6-8, an unfortunate thing has occurred—the loss of the actual meaning of the verse. The verse is not speaking either of Christ’s giving up his “Godhood” at his incarnation or of his God-nature being willing to “hide” so that his man-nature can show itself clearly. Rather, it is saying something else. Scripture says Christ was the “image of God” (2 Cor. 4:4), and Jesus himself testified that if one had seen him, he had seen the Father. Saying that Christ was in the “form” (outward appearance) of God is simply stating that truth in another way. Unlike Adam, who grasped at being like God (Gen. 3:5), Christ, the Last Adam, “emptied himself” of all his reputation and the things due him as the true child of the King. He lived in the same fashion as other men. He humbled himself to the Word and will of God. He lived by “It is written” and the commands of his Father. He did not “toot his own horn,” but instead called himself “the son of man,” which, in the Aramaic language he spoke, meant “a man.” He trusted God and became obedient, even to a horrible and shameful death on a cross.

http://www.biblicalunitarian.com/modules.php?name=Content&pa=showpage&pid=127

[DispensationalJim]

So, Warrior, you spent all that time and energy to show that you can spend a lot of time and energy without knowing anything FOR SURE. Some of us have concluded that you can find "EVIDENCE" (?) to support whatever view you want to take by researching the various Greek "authorities" who IMHO rarely agree on much of anything, and the dozens of Bible translations/ versions/ paraphrases available which can -- if you search long enough -- give you the exact verbage you need to "prove" your doctrine to yourself, at least.
===========================
"I know you believe you understand what you think I said, but I'm not sure if you realize that what you heard was not what I really meant." (author unknown?)
============================
So I -- for one -- have determined through the years that the good old King James got it right and so I'll just stick with it for my assurance that God has preserved His Word for us today in the English language by the KJV.

Therefore, my belief in the trinity will be based on the many wonderful King James verses, regardless of what "anti-trinity" believers claim from the Greek and the various Bible versions.

I will "publish" my "WHO IS JESUS?" tract text in the following post.

Jim

[DispensationalJim]

WHO IS JESUS IN YOUR BIBLE?

IN THE KING JAMES,
• JESUS IS GOD
* John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. ...All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made...l4 And the Word was madeflesh, and dwelt among us,...
* John 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.
* Philippians 2:5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: 4 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
* Heb. 1:8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
* Psa. 45:6 Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: the sceptre of thy kingdom is a right sceptre.

• JESUS IS GOD THE CREATOR
* Ephesians 3:9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:
* Col. 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
* Heb. 1:1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, 2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
* Heb. 11:3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.

• JESUS IS A MEMBER OF THE GODHEAD:
* Romans 1:20 ...even his eternal power and Godhead...
* Colossians 2;9 For in him (Jesus) dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. (also Acts 17:29).

• JESUS IS THE LORD, THE SAVIOUR, AND THE REDEEMER (GOD)
* Isaiah 43:3 For I am the LORD thy God... thy Saviour... 1l I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour. 45:21 ...there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour: there is none beside me. 49:26 ...and all flesh shall know that I the LORD) am thy Saviour and thy Redeenrer... 60:16 ...and thou shalt know that I the LORD am thy Saviour and thy Redeemer...
* John 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him(Jesus), My Lord and my God.
* Galatians 3:13 Christ hath redeemed us...
* Titus 2:14...he might redeem us from all iniquity... Luke 2:11 ...a Saviour. which is Christ the Lord. John 4:42 ...this is indeed the Christ, the Saviour of the world.
* Ephesians 4:5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism.
* 1'Timothy 6: 15 ...the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;
* Revelation l7: 14 ... and the Lamb shall overcome them:for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings... 19: 16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.
* Luke 23:42 he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me...
* Acts 9:5 ...the Lord said, l am Jesus... 9;29 And he spake boldy in the name of the Lord Jesus,...
* Romans 1;3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord,... 6;11 ...through Jesus Chtist our Lord.
* ICorinthians 10:28 ...for thc earth is the Lord's, and the fulness thereof... 15:47 ... the second man is the Lord from heaven.
* 2Corinthians 4: 10 ...the dying of the Lord Jesus...
* Epesians 3:14 ...of our Lord Jesus Christ,
* l Timothv 1:4 ...by the commandment of God our Saviour, and Lord Jesus Christ...
* Titus 1:4 ...the Lord Jesus Christ our Saviour.
• In the New Testament,'LORD JESUS" is found in the KJV about 120 times. Jesus is referred to as 'THE SAVIOUR" 25 times. The Apostle Paul uses the phrase 'GOD THE SAVIOUR" 7 times!

• JESUS IS THE ALPHA AND OMEGA, THE BEGINNING AND THE END, THE FlRST AND THE LAST, THE ALMIGHTY
* Isaiah 44:6 Thus saith the LORD...; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.
* Revelation 1:8 I am Alpha and Omega, the begin-ning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.
* Revelation 1:11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book...
* Revelation 22: 12 ...behold,I come quickly; and my reward is with me... 13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last... 16 I, Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things...

• JESUS IS THE ONLY WAY:
* John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I AM THE WAY, THE TRUTH, AND THE LIFE; NO MAN COMETH UNTO THE FATHER BUT BY ME.

• Jesus is a member of THE TRINITY:
* 1 John 5:7: For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three ane one.

• JESUS IS THE CHRIST/MESSIAH
* John 1:41 ...We have found the Messiah, which is, being interpteted, the Christ.
* Matthew 23:8 ...one is your master, even Christ;... John 4:42 ...this is indeed the Christ, the Saviour of the world.
* John6:69 ...thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God
* Acts 19:4 ...they should believe on...Christ Jesus. Romans 1:16 For l am not ashamed ofthe gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth... 16:20 The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you. Amen.
* lCorinthians 5:4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, ...with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ
* Galatians 4:7 ...an heir of God through Christ.
* 1 John 1;2 ...and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.


DispensationalJim

[mrsajones]

Wow.... I just saw this post, and the first one is # 142.... Obviously, I don't have the time to sit here and read all 142 posts, so I'll just say, yeah, I believe in ONE GOD: Father, Son, Spirit: The Trinity. (Nope, the word "trinity" isn't in scripture, but neither are the words "abortion" or "superbowl" but we know that one is evil and one is not, based on who we know God to be and what we know about what would please Him and what would not.) But we can start this conversation where the Bible starts, in Genesis, where God says, "Let US make man in OUR image...."
Skip ahead to John 1:1 -- The Word. Was with God, IS God....

[matt1618]

Wow.... I just saw this post, and the first one is # 142.... Skip ahead to John 1:1 -- The Word. Was with God, IS God....
Well, we're up to 1415 now, I think. Well, I guess I make this 1416. I was back in 250 or so I think, but there are enough Trinitarian defenders.

[DRS]

Wow.... I just saw this post, and the first one is # 142.... Obviously, I don't have the time to sit here and read all 142 posts, so I'll just say, yeah, I believe in ONE GOD: Father, Son, Spirit: The Trinity. (Nope, the word "trinity" isn't in scripture, but neither are the words "abortion" or "superbowl" but we know that one is evil and one is not, based on who we know God to be and what we know about what would please Him and what would not.) But we can start this conversation where the Bible starts, in Genesis, where God says, "Let US make man in OUR image...."
Skip ahead to John 1:1 -- The Word. Was with God, IS God....

So who is the God of John 1:1, no one who has trinitarian beliefs has answered that yet or why the "The" was left out.

[DispensationalJim]

Hello again, DRS!
You wrote: "So who is the God of John 1:1, no one who has trinitarian beliefs has answered that yet or why the "The" was left out."
-------------------
Jim replies: First DRS, if you want to ask a question, you probably ought to put a question mark at the end!!

Second, who said there was a "The" left out in the first place? I don't see a "the" left out.

Here is the verse:
• John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Where should there be a "the" added?

And as a trinitarian, I believe I answered your question about who is the God of John 1:1 below in my post asking "Who is Jesus in Your Bible?"

Did you read that post, or am I on your "ignore" list, too?

DJ

[DRS]

Hello again, DRS!
You wrote: "So who is the God of John 1:1, no one who has trinitarian beliefs has answered that yet or why the "The" was left out."
-------------------
Jim replies: First DRS, if you want to ask a question, you probably ought to put a question mark at the end!!

Second, who said there was a "The" left out in the first place? I don't see a "the" left out.

Here is the verse:
• John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Where should there be a "the" added?

And as a trinitarian, I believe I answered your question about who is the God of John 1:1 below in my post asking "Who is Jesus in Your Bible?"

Did you read that post, or am I on your "ignore" list, too?

DJ

In the original greek there is a the before the first instance of God.

[Mathius]

Hello again, DRS!
You wrote: "So who is the God of John 1:1, no one who has trinitarian beliefs has answered that yet or why the "The" was left out."
-------------------
Jim replies: First DRS, if you want to ask a question, you probably ought to put a question mark at the end!!

Second, who said there was a "The" left out in the first place? I don't see a "the" left out.

Here is the verse:
• John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Where should there be a "the" added?

And as a trinitarian, I believe I answered your question about who is the God of John 1:1 below in my post asking "Who is Jesus in Your Bible?"

Did you read that post, or am I on your "ignore" list, too?

DJ

Do you realize or know that the writer of John is quoting the Vedas? One of those dreaded cosmic humanistic religions.

[DispensationalJim]

Wow, DRS!! I didn't realize that YOU had the original Greek. Everyone said it was gone. Do you own a museum? Where is your museum. I know lots of people who would pay lots of money to see that original. That must be worth a lot of money! Do you have just the text of John, or is it the complete New Testament?

Can you tell me which line of Greek manuscripts that Greek papyrus started? Was that the Byzantine text or the Alexandrius text? Scholars say they ARE quite different

Maybe you could give us the actual Greek from each of those "lines" and show us why yours is superior to the other one.

I'm so excited. Maybe my wife and I can come and see your museum. Where is it again?

DJim

[DispensationalJim]

Hello again, Mathius.
You wrote: "Do you realize or know that the writer of John is quoting the Vedas? One of those dreaded cosmic humanistic religions."
-------------------------------
Jim answers: I have heard that rumor. Do you have proof? So, if it were ever proven, what would it mean? Should we throw away our New Testaments and find us a new Bible to follow?

Would you please show us the quote from the Vedas so we can see for ourselves? While you are at it, maybe you should tell us how you learned of this? Just curious...

DJim

[bj2745]

The Trinity was an attempt to come up with something everyone could agree with because it offered a little something for everyone. Aside from that it came out of Nicea, so that alone makes me disinclined to believe it.

[biebel]

I wonder what kind of substance resides within us that makes us acutally think it matters to the Father, Son and Holy Spirit whether or not we believe in them? Do they cower in fear, biting their nails at the consensus of man's futile and pointless conjecture? No doubt such substance must be of darker content than gray matter and closer to what might end up on Sheryl Crow's finger after using one sheet (one sheet only!) of precious toilet paper. :think:

[Mathius]

Hello again, Mathius.
You wrote: "Do you realize or know that the writer of John is quoting the Vedas? One of those dreaded cosmic humanistic religions."
-------------------------------
Jim answers: I have heard that rumor. Do you have proof? So, if it were ever proven, what would it mean? Should we throw away our New Testaments and find us a new Bible to follow?

Would you please show us the quote from the Vedas so we can see for ourselves? While you are at it, maybe you should tell us how you learned of this? Just curious...

DJim

Prajapati vai idam agra asit
Tasya vak dvitiya asit
Vag vai paramam Brahma

"In the beginning was Prajapati, the Brahman with whom was the Word, and
the Word was verily the Supreme Brahman."

http://www.hindunet.org/alt_hindu/1995_Apr_2/msg00028.html

If you want the actual verse/hymn I need to find it again. I just find it ironic that John will use this specific phrase to "describe the Godhead". We shouldn't throw out the bible but maybe we have more in common with our fellow brothers of the earth.

I learned of this while reading the Vedas in an attempt to cast away some ignorance.

[Warrior4God]

I wonder what kind of substance resides within us that makes us acutally think it matters to the Father, Son and Holy Spirit whether or not we believe in them? Do they cower in fear, biting their nails at the consensus of man's futile and pointless conjecture? No doubt such substance must be of darker content than gray matter and closer to what might end up on Sheryl Crow's finger after using one sheet (one sheet only!) of precious toilet paper. :think:

who said the did not believe in The Father,The Son, or The holy spirit

[Warrior4God]

WHO IS JESUS IN YOUR BIBLE?

IN THE KING JAMES,
• JESUS IS GOD
* John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. ...All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made...l4 And the Word was madeflesh, and dwelt among us,...
* John 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.
* Philippians 2:5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: 4 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
* Heb. 1:8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
* Psa. 45:6 Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: the sceptre of thy kingdom is a right sceptre.

• JESUS IS GOD THE CREATOR
* Ephesians 3:9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:
* Col. 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
* Heb. 1:1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, 2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
* Heb. 11:3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.

• JESUS IS A MEMBER OF THE GODHEAD:
* Romans 1:20 ...even his eternal power and Godhead...
* Colossians 2;9 For in him (Jesus) dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. (also Acts 17:29).

• JESUS IS THE LORD, THE SAVIOUR, AND THE REDEEMER (GOD)
* Isaiah 43:3 For I am the LORD thy God... thy Saviour... 1l I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour. 45:21 ...there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour: there is none beside me. 49:26 ...and all flesh shall know that I the LORD) am thy Saviour and thy Redeenrer... 60:16 ...and thou shalt know that I the LORD am thy Saviour and thy Redeemer...
* John 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him(Jesus), My Lord and my God.
* Galatians 3:13 Christ hath redeemed us...
* Titus 2:14...he might redeem us from all iniquity... Luke 2:11 ...a Saviour. which is Christ the Lord. John 4:42 ...this is indeed the Christ, the Saviour of the world.
* Ephesians 4:5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism.
* 1'Timothy 6: 15 ...the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;
* Revelation l7: 14 ... and the Lamb shall overcome them:for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings... 19: 16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.
* Luke 23:42 he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me...
* Acts 9:5 ...the Lord said, l am Jesus... 9;29 And he spake boldy in the name of the Lord Jesus,...
* Romans 1;3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord,... 6;11 ...through Jesus Chtist our Lord.
* ICorinthians 10:28 ...for thc earth is the Lord's, and the fulness thereof... 15:47 ... the second man is the Lord from heaven.
* 2Corinthians 4: 10 ...the dying of the Lord Jesus...
* Epesians 3:14 ...of our Lord Jesus Christ,
* l Timothv 1:4 ...by the commandment of God our Saviour, and Lord Jesus Christ...
* Titus 1:4 ...the Lord Jesus Christ our Saviour.
• In the New Testament,'LORD JESUS" is found in the KJV about 120 times. Jesus is referred to as 'THE SAVIOUR" 25 times. The Apostle Paul uses the phrase 'GOD THE SAVIOUR" 7 times!

• JESUS IS THE ALPHA AND OMEGA, THE BEGINNING AND THE END, THE FlRST AND THE LAST, THE ALMIGHTY
* Isaiah 44:6 Thus saith the LORD...; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.
* Revelation 1:8 I am Alpha and Omega, the begin-ning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.
* Revelation 1:11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book...
* Revelation 22: 12 ...behold,I come quickly; and my reward is with me... 13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last... 16 I, Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things...

• JESUS IS THE ONLY WAY:
* John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I AM THE WAY, THE TRUTH, AND THE LIFE; NO MAN COMETH UNTO THE FATHER BUT BY ME.

• Jesus is a member of THE TRINITY:
* 1 John 5:7: For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three ane one.

• JESUS IS THE CHRIST/MESSIAH
* John 1:41 ...We have found the Messiah, which is, being interpteted, the Christ.
* Matthew 23:8 ...one is your master, even Christ;... John 4:42 ...this is indeed the Christ, the Saviour of the world.
* John6:69 ...thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God
* Acts 19:4 ...they should believe on...Christ Jesus. Romans 1:16 For l am not ashamed ofthe gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth... 16:20 The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you. Amen.
* lCorinthians 5:4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, ...with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ
* Galatians 4:7 ...an heir of God through Christ.
* 1 John 1;2 ...and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.


DispensationalJim

The only verse you use here to show the trinity is actually wrong in KJV,that is 1 John 5:7


1 John 5:7-8
For there are three that bear record [in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. And there are three that bear witness in earth], the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one. (KJV)



1. Some English versions have a shorter rendition of 1 John 5:7 and 8 than the KJV quoted above. The King James Version has words that support the Trinity that most modern versions do not have. How can this be? The reason that there are different translations of this verse is that some Greek texts contain an addition that was not original, and that addition was placed into some English versions, such as the KJV (the words added to some Greek texts are in brackets in the quotation above). The note in the NIV Study Bible, which is well known for its ardent belief in the Trinity, says, “The addition is not found in any Greek manuscript or NT translation prior to the 16th century.”

Most modern versions are translated from Greek texts without the addition. We will quote the NIV: “For there are three that testify: the Spirit, the water and the blood; and the three are in agreement.” We agree with the textual scholars and conclude from the evidence of the Greek texts that the statement that the Father, the Word and the Holy Spirit are “one” was added to the Word of God by men, and thus has no weight of truth.

There are many Trinitarian scholars who freely admit that the Greek text from which the KJV is translated was adjusted in this verse to support the Trinity. The Greek scholar A. T. Robertson, author of the unparalleled work, A Grammar of the Greek New Testament in Light of Historical Research, and the multi-volumed Word Pictures in the New Testament, writes:

At this point [1 John 5:7] the Latin Vulgate gives the words in the Textus Receptus, found in no Greek MS. save two late cursives (162 in the Vatican Library of the fifteenth century, [No.] 34 of the sixteenth century in Trinity College, Dublin). Jerome did not have it. Erasmus did not have it in his first edition, but rashly offered to insert it if a single Greek MS. had it, and 34 was produced with the insertion, as if made to order. Some Latin scribe caught up Cyprian’s exegesis and wrote it on the margin of his text, and so it got into the Vulgate and finally into the Textus Receptus by the stupidity of Erasmus.” [42]

Robertson shows how this addition entered the text. It was a marginal note. Since all texts were hand-copied, when a scribe, copying a text, accidentally left a word or sentence out of his copy, he would place it in the margin in hopes that the next scribe would copy it back into the text. Unfortunately, scribes occasionally did not make the distinction between what a previous scribe had left out of the last copy and wrote in the margin, and marginal notes that another scribe had written in the margin to help him understand the text. Therefore, some marginal notes got copied into the text as Scripture. Usually these additions are easy to spot because the “new” text will differ from all the other texts. However, there are times when people adore their theology more than the God-breathed original, and they fight for the man-made addition as if it were the original words of God. This has been the case with 1 John 5:7 and 8, and we applaud the honesty of the translators of modern versions who have left it out of their translations.


Honestly most of these verses you use I have already posted their mistranslation or misunderstanding in previous posts
As for 1 John 5:7 the bracketed words from the KJV above…OMITTED BY ALL GREEK MANUSCRIPTS previous to the beginning of the 16th century;

as you can see KJV is not perfect dont put all your eggs in that basket
man has tried for centuries to put the trinity into Gods Word yet Jesus Christ himself declares who he was time and time again,I will believe him before I believe man and his doctrine or creeds

[Warrior4God]

Jim I appreciate your convictions I truly do but.......
If you wish to adress these verses again here I beg you to post 1 at a time and we can deal with them as they should be looked at

[Harmonious]

I've been ignoring parts and pieces of the Christian vs. Christian part of the discussion, but when I came across this line, I woke up and had to respond.

The Jews translating the Septuagint used morphe several times, and it always referred to the outward appearance. Job says, “A spirit glided past my face, and the hair on my body stood on end. It stopped, but I could not tell what it was. A form (morphe) stood before my eyes, and I heard a hushed voice (Job 4:15 and 16). There is no question here that morphe refers to the outward appearance. Isaiah has the word morphe in reference to man-made idols: “The carpenter measures with a line and makes an outline with a marker; he roughs it out with chisels and marks it with compasses. He shapes it in the form (morphe) of man, of man in all his glory, that it may dwell in a shrine” (Isa. 44:13). It would be absurd to assert that morphe referred to “the essential nature” in this verse, as if a wooden carving could have the “essential nature” of man. The verse is clear: the idol has the “outward appearance” of a man. According to Daniel 3:19, after Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego refused to bow down to Nebuchadnezzar’s image, he became enraged and “the form (morphe) of his countenance” changed. The NASB says, “his facial expression” changed. Nothing in his nature changed, but the people watching could see that his outward appearance changed.



Jews didn't translate the whole Tanach into Greek. The Jews translated the Pentatuach into Greek. The rest of the Tanach was translated into Greek by non-Jews.

Therefore, your source is wrong, at least on that count.

Thank you for playing.

[Warrior4God]

I've been ignoring parts and pieces of the Christian vs. Christian part of the discussion, but when I came across this line, I woke up and had to respond.

Jews didn't translate the whole Tanach into Greek. The Jews translated the Pentatuach into Greek. The rest of the Tanach was translated into Greek by non-Jews.

Therefore, your source is wrong, at least on that count.

Thank you for playing.

Thats cool wasnt aware of that
do you have a source for this?

[Harmonious]

Thats cool wasnt aware of that
do you have a source for this?

Unfortunately, I don't remember my sources. I only remember that is what I learned.

[Warrior4God]

Unfortunately, I don't remember my sources. I only remember that is what I learned.

I understand and have no reason to doubt you there as I am no Hebrew or greek expert.
having said that I believe the information the source gave is still worth looking into when a verse appears to us that read it in the english language to contradict any other part of the Bible it must be flagged and studied
especially when it is as important as Jesus being God or being the Son of God
and there is no proof that he is God and no one can show me where Jesus says I am God and if he were God I know in my heart God would surely make it very very very clear.
Jesus Christ knew who he was and declared it, man has tried to make him God
and we should just accept it as being a mystery?Im not drinking that koolaid.
I know you dont believe in Jesus but your religion knows the messiah was not going to be God,right?

[Harmonious]

I know you dont believe in Jesus but your religion knows the messiah was not going to be God,right?
Right. The Messiah will not be God. Just a man. A very impressive man, but only a man.

[Warrior4God]

Right. The Messiah will not be God. Just a man. A very impressive man, but only a man.

And the dumb baldheaded ugly ol redneck said Amen

[Harmonious]

And the dumb baldheaded ugly ol redneck said Amen
:hug:

[Mathius]

I understand and have no reason to doubt you there as I am no Hebrew or greek expert.
having said that I believe the information the source gave is still worth looking into when a verse appears to us that read it in the english language to contradict any other part of the Bible it must be flagged and studied
especially when it is as important as Jesus being God or being the Son of God
and there is no proof that he is God and no one can show me where Jesus says I am God and if he were God I know in my heart God would surely make it very very very clear.
Jesus Christ knew who he was and declared it, man has tried to make him God
and we should just accept it as being a mystery?Im not drinking that koolaid.
I know you dont believe in Jesus but your religion knows the messiah was not going to be God,right?

Lets take a look at the Gentiles.
What major characters in Greek history have been the child of a God?
Alexander the Great
Achilles
Hercules
Perseus
Jesus
See the similarities or should I continue?

[Harmonious]

Lets take a look at the Gentiles.
What major characters in Greek history have been the child of a God?
Alexander the Great
Achilles
Hercules
Perseus
Jesus
See the similarities or should I continue?

I see them!

[Warrior4God]

Lets take a look at the Gentiles.
What major characters in Greek history have been the child of a God?
Alexander the Great
Achilles
Hercules
Perseus
Jesus
See the similarities or should I continue?

There is no similar person to Jesus Christ as I have seen God answer my prayers through his name and NO MAN ever was raised from the dead and ascended to heaven except Jesus Christ my Lord.
There is no point debating this point with me as I see you dont hold the same opinion of my saviour

[Mathius]

There is no similar person to Jesus Christ as I have seen God answer my prayers through his name and NO MAN ever was raised from the dead and ascended to heaven except Jesus Christ my Lord.
There is no point debating this point with me as I see you dont hold the same opinion of my saviour

We don't have the same idea of who Jesus is. I only see the word of Jesus as what "saves" us and not the belief that he is the son of God or is God. Now I do believe that he is the Son of God but I also think that we are all children of God (our souls not the physical form).

My attempt with my previous post is that the gentiles like to elevate their "heroes" to Godly statuses. Making them more than mere men.

[Poisonshady313]

Lets take a look at the Gentiles.
What major characters in Greek history have been the child of a God?
Alexander the Great
Achilles
Hercules
Perseus
Jesus
See the similarities or should I continue?

except for alexander the great, all of them have names that end with S.

[Warrior4God]

except for alexander the great, all of them have names that end with S.

Now your just making me laugh

[DRS]

Wow, DRS!! I didn't realize that YOU had the original Greek. Everyone said it was gone. Do you own a museum? Where is your museum. I know lots of people who would pay lots of money to see that original. That must be worth a lot of money! Do you have just the text of John, or is it the complete New Testament?

Can you tell me which line of Greek manuscripts that Greek papyrus started? Was that the Byzantine text or the Alexandrius text? Scholars say they ARE quite different

Maybe you could give us the actual Greek from each of those "lines" and show us why yours is superior to the other one.

I'm so excited. Maybe my wife and I can come and see your museum. Where is it again?

DJim


Even those who speak greek here have commented that there was a the before the first instance of the use of God in John 1

[DispensationalJim]

Hi, DRS!

We are discussing the "Which Bible?" issue on the other thread ("Take the NIV BIble Quiz"), so maybe we should take that particular issue over there.

However, my immediate response would be...

In which Greek manscript(s) does the "the" occur? You have many choices:
1. Vaticanus/B (Alexandrian type)
2. Saniaticus/Aleph (Alexandrain type)
3. Syriac (Byzantine/Majority Text type)
4. Peshetta - purposely mispelled (Byzantine/Majority Text type)
etc...

DJ

[Warrior4God]

Hi, DRS!

We are discussing the "Which Bible?" issue on the other thread ("Take the NIV BIble Quiz"), so maybe we should take that particular issue over there.

However, my immediate response would be...

In which Greek manscript(s) does the "the" occur? You have many choices:
1. Vaticanus/B (Alexandrian type)
2. Saniaticus/Aleph (Alexandrain type)
3. Syriac (Byzantine/Majority Text type)
4. Peshetta - purposely mispelled (Byzantine/Majority Text type)
etc...

DJ

I was following things till now.what is the point your making?

[DispensationalJim]

Hi, Warrior!

I was referring to the missing "the" which DRS keeps bringing up.

If it isn't in the manuscripts mentioned, then DRS has no basis for his claim, since the translators apparently put in what was there.

I checked the Zondervan Parallel NT which has the KJV and NIV side by side with the corresponding Nestle's Greek on the opposite page, and I see no evidence there for a missing "the."

So that is my point. Just trying to get more supporting info from DRS, if he has any.

DJim

[DRS]

Really no ho Theos?

[Warrior4God]

Hi, Warrior!

I was referring to the missing "the" which DRS keeps bringing up.

If it isn't in the manuscripts mentioned, then DRS has no basis for his claim, since the translators apparently put in what was there.

I checked the Zondervan Parallel NT which has the KJV and NIV side by side with the corresponding Nestle's Greek on the opposite page, and I see no evidence there for a missing "the."

So that is my point. Just trying to get more supporting info from DRS, if he has any.

DJim

John1:1 is showing Gods purpose and plan for mankind ,Gods Word is that purpose and plan, Gods purpose and plan became flesh his desire to bring salvation to man was in Jesus Christ.
IF and I say IF I was to read John 1:1 as refering to Jesus Christ being God then the Bible is in error everywhere and would also let me know that in Romans 1:23 that I would be in serious error

Rom 1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
Rom 1:22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
Rom 1:23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.

[DispensationalJim]

Warrior wrote:
John1:1 is showing Gods purpose and plan for mankind ,Gods Word is that purpose and plan, Gods purpose and plan became flesh his desire to bring salvation to man was in Jesus Christ.
IF and I say IF I was to read John 1:1 as refering to Jesus Christ being God then the Bible is in error everywhere and would also let me know that in Romans 1:23 that I would be in serious error
=======================
Jim writes:
I would really like to see where YOU THINK the Bible is in error everywhere just because of this verse:
• John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

That is one of the simplest and most easily understood verses in the Bible.

=========================

Warrior added:
Rom 1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
Rom 1:22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
Rom 1:23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
------------------------------
Jim answers:
That is what sinful man has always done. They have been making statues of men, and claiming they are images of God from Exodus through to today.

That doesn't make John 1:1 wrong, it makes sinful man wrong for making "graven images." Verse 21 says they became vain in their IMAGINATIONS. That is how they changed God into an image, in their IMAGINATION.

Warrior, you left off these verses:
• Rom. 1:24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
Rom. 1:25 WHO CHANGED THE TRUTH OF GOD INTO**A LIE**, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

I don't see how that makes John 1:1 a problem. In fact, I think that is exactly what some of the translators have done with their new Bible versions: They have changed the truth of God INTO A LIE!!

DJim

[DRS]

Why it seems that if you elevate the creation of God to an equal level with God then Romans 1:25 seems more apt.


It is interesting that the same thing that happened with the copper serpant (which prefigured Christ) is happening with Jesus.

[Mathius]

Why it seems that if you elevate the creation of God to an equal level with God then Romans 1:25 seems more apt.


It is interesting that the same thing that happened with the copper serpant (which prefigured Christ) is happening with Jesus.

Excelent post DRS. God made Jesus. God sent Jesus to the Irsaelites, Jesus recieves the Holy Spirit from God. Jesus preached the word of God. Jesus died and was resurrected for man(the Isrealites as he was only sent to the Israelites). Jesus died for us (the Israelite) so lets make him a God too since he is our Savior. Oops we can't worship two Gods, I mean three Gods so lets make them all one...

[HisServant]

Hi, Warrior!

I was referring to the missing "the" which DRS keeps bringing up.

If it isn't in the manuscripts mentioned, then DRS has no basis for his claim, since the translators apparently put in what was there.

I checked the Zondervan Parallel NT which has the KJV and NIV side by side with the corresponding Nestle's Greek on the opposite page, and I see no evidence there for a missing "the."

So that is my point. Just trying to get more supporting info from DRS, if he has any.

DJim

I've gone round and round with him on this. If you make a literal word for word translation then you put either "a" or "the" before God. The problem this creates is it is improper grammar in foreign languages. When you are speaking about the same subject the "a" or "the" is not needed when translating into english. However those who want to change who Jesus is and His nature insist on adding it to change the meaning of the verse.

Here's an example never responded too.

In Spanish: Como esta? means "how are you?"
Answer: Estoy bien means "I am fine" or can be translated as just "fine" or "I am well" or just "well". You see estoy means I am. but in anwering someone you don't have to use the "estoy" because it is understood. So in translating it you could just leave it out and still be correct.

[DRS]

I've gone round and round with him on this. If you make a literal word for word translation then you put either "a" or "the" before God. The problem this creates is it is improper grammar in foreign languages. When you are speaking about the same subject the "a" or "the" is not needed when translating into english. However those who want to change who Jesus is and His nature insist on adding it to change the meaning of the verse.

Here's an example never responded too.

In Spanish: Como esta? means "how are you?"
Answer: Estoy bien means "I am fine" or can be translated as just "fine" or "I am well" or just "well". You see estoy means I am. but in anwering someone you don't have to use the "estoy" because it is understood. So in translating it you could just leave it out and still be correct.


Except I showed in the OT where ho Theos is used and refers to a specific person.

You have to look at the Ot before you can start to understand some termonolgy in the NT.

[DispensationalJim]

Thanks, His Servant, for that info.
=========================
Mathius, you wrote:
"God made Jesus. God sent Jesus to the Irsaelites, Jesus recieves the Holy Spirit from God. Jesus preached the word of God. Jesus died and was resurrected for man(the Isrealites as he was only sent to the Israelites). Jesus died for us (the Israelite) so lets make him a God too since he is our Savior. Oops we can't worship two Gods, I mean three Gods so lets make them all one..."
----------------------------
Jim says: God did not make Jesus. Jesus was/is God.
• John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
• Heb. 1:8 But UNTO THE SON HE (GOD THE FATHER) SAITH, THY THRONE, O GOD**, is for ever and ever...

God the Father sent God the Son (yes, the Son is subservient to the Father) to the nation of Israel.

But God the Son MADE HIMSELF INTO A MAN!
• Phil. 2:5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: 6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: 7 But **MADE HIMSELF OF NO REPUTATION, AND TOOK UPON HIM THE **FORM** OF A SERVANT, AND WAS MADE IN THE **LIKENESS OF MEN**: 8 And being found in fashion **AS A MAN**, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
======================
Mathius, a question for you: Have you ever studied the MYSTERY as found in the epistles of Paul? Well, please check out these verses:

• Rom. 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this MYSTERY, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
• Rom. 16:25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the MYSTERY, which was kept secret since the world began,
• 1Cor. 2:7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a MYSTERY, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:
• Eph. 1:9 Having made known unto us the MYSTERY of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
• Eph. 3:3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the MYSTERY; (as I wrote afore in few words,
• Eph. 3:4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the MYSTERY of Christ)
• Eph. 3:9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the MYSTERY, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:
• Eph. 5:32 This is a great MYSTERY: but I speak concerning **CHRIST AND THE CHURCH**.
• Eph. 6:19 And for me, that utterance may be given unto me, that I may open my mouth boldly, to make known the MYSTERY of **THE GOSPEL**,
• Col. 1:26 Even the MYSTERY which hath been hid from ages and from generations, **BUT NOW** is made manifest to his saints: 27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this MYSTERY among the Gentiles; which **IS CHRIST IN YOU**, the hope of glory:
• Col. 2:2 That their hearts might be comforted, being knit together in love, and unto all riches of the full assurance of understanding, to the acknowledgement of the MYSTERY of **GOD, AND OF THE FATHER, AND OF CHRIST**.
• 1Tim. 3:16 And without controversy great is the MYSTERY of godliness: ***GOD WAS MANIFEST IN THE FLESH***, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

OK, Mathius, what do you do with all of those verses? Just ignore them? I certainly hope not.

DJim

[DRS]

I noticed you left out verse 10 from Ephesians 1

[ralittlefield]

I noticed you left out verse 10 from Ephesians 1

Verse 10 speaks of all thing being brought under Christ. How does that tie into the subject of mysteries?

[DRS]

Verse 10 speaks of all thing being brought under Christ. How does that tie into the subject of mysteries?

The mystery is discussed in this paragraph of Ephesians 1.

The mystery goes back to the first prophecy.

How was God going to fix everything so that His will would be done in regards to the Earth and the Heavens.


And I shall put enmity between you and the woman and between your seed and her seed. He will bruise you in the head and you will bruise him in the heel.”

[ralittlefield]

The mystery is discussed in this paragraph of Ephesians 1.

The mystery goes back to the first prophecy.

How was God going to fix everything so that His will would be done in regards to the Earth and the Heavens.


And I shall put enmity between you and the woman and between your seed and her seed. He will bruise you in the head and you will bruise him in the heel.”

So Christ is the answer to the mystery.

How is it significant that DispensationalJim left that verse out. Do you think that he was trying to hide something?

[DRS]

So Christ is the answer to the mystery.

How is it significant that DispensationalJim left that verse out. Do you think that he was trying to hide something?

Because he was hoping to say the sacred secret or mystery was Jesus is God and is triune.

Yet that could not be as Jesus told the woman at the well we worship what we know, there was no mystery at the time of Jesus prescence about God.

[ralittlefield]

Because he was hoping to say the sacred secret or mystery was Jesus is God and is triune.

Yet that could not be as Jesus told the woman at the well we worship what we know, there was no mystery at the time of Jesus prescence about God.

If there was no mystery, how could Paul write in his letters about the mystery?

To know God does not have to mean know all about God.

[DRS]

If there was no mystery, how could Paul write in his letters about the mystery?

To know God does not have to mean know all about God.
Paul stated the mystery had been made known to those early Christians.

We learned how sin came what the plan was and how some prophecies would be fulfilled.

Take it up with Jesus if you think he is wrong to have stated we worship what we know.

[ralittlefield]

Paul stated the mystery had been made known to those early Christians.

We learned how sin came what the plan was and how some prophecies would be fulfilled.

Take it up with Jesus if you think he is wrong to have stated we worship what we know.

If it was made known to the early Christians, it had to exist at the time of Christ's presence. There were no Christians until after Christs presence.

[DRS]

If it was made known to the early Christians, it had to exist at the time of Christ's presence. There were no Christians until after Christs presence.

John said no man has seen God.

Jesus never said I am God, Jesus was talking about the Jews who worshipeed what they knew.

The secret that has been made known is exactly what God's plan for the entire universe was.

How sin was inherited, who the seed was and who the woman is was also made known.

[DispensationalJim]

Hey, thanks, ralittlefield, for jumping in on my behalf.

===========================

Of course, DRS, when I post a series of verses like that, I rarely post any "extra" verses, since I have simply done a word search on my Mac Bible (in this case, I just typed in "MYSTERY") and then popped them into the post. Yes, that is the old "cut and paste" system, but it certainly speeds up the process when you are trying to make a quick point, which in this case was explaining to Mathius that I follow Paul partly because Paul was given the mystery, which was IMHO defined in the verses which were quoted.

I'm out of time for now, but I'm sure DRS will have more to say now.

DJim

[ralittlefield]

Hey, thanks, ralittlefield, for jumping in on my behalf.

===========================

Of course, DRS, when I post a series of verses like that, I rarely post any "extra" verses, since I have simply done a word search on my Mac Bible (in this case, I just typed in "MYSTERY") and then popped them into the post. Yes, that is the old "cut and paste" system, but it certainly speeds up the process when you are trying to make a quick point, which in this case was explaining to Mathius that I follow Paul partly because Paul was given the mystery, which was IMHO defined in the verses which were quoted.

I'm out of time for now, but I'm sure DRS will have more to say now.

DJim

Hope that you do not mind my jumping in the middle of your conversation, but I did not understand the point to drs' question. I will mind my own business from now on. ;)

[DRS]

Hey, thanks, ralittlefield, for jumping in on my behalf.

===========================

Of course, DRS, when I post a series of verses like that, I rarely post any "extra" verses, since I have simply done a word search on my Mac Bible (in this case, I just typed in "MYSTERY") and then popped them into the post. Yes, that is the old "cut and paste" system, but it certainly speeds up the process when you are trying to make a quick point, which in this case was explaining to Mathius that I follow Paul partly because Paul was given the mystery, which was IMHO defined in the verses which were quoted.

I'm out of time for now, but I'm sure DRS will have more to say now.
DJim
It is reading in context and cross referencing, you keep looking at one word or verse you end up pretty soon also posting on universal salvation.

Paul was not given any more information than the rest of the apostles, in fact he recieved direction from the governing body in Jerusalem.

[Mathius]

It is reading in context and cross referencing, you keep looking at one word or verse you end up pretty soon also posting on universal salvation.

Paul was not given any more information than the rest of the apostles, in fact he recieved direction from the governing body in Jerusalem.

Well said. In my opinion there is nothing worse that taking somthing someone said out of context. Nowhere did Jesus call himself God in the Gospels. Well I guess if you take the passages out of context you could prove anything maybe even prove that the children of heaven are really going to hell.

Matthew 8:12
but the children of the kingdom will be driven out into the outer darkness, where there will be wailing and grinding of teeth."

[Angryamerican]

Warrior wrote:
John1:1 is showing Gods purpose and plan for mankind ,Gods Word is that purpose and plan, Gods purpose and plan became flesh his desire to bring salvation to man was in Jesus Christ.
IF and I say IF I was to read John 1:1 as refering to Jesus Christ being God then the Bible is in error everywhere and would also let me know that in Romans 1:23 that I would be in serious error
=======================
Jim writes:
I would really like to see where YOU THINK the Bible is in error everywhere just because of this verse:
• John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

That is one of the simplest and most easily understood verses in the Bible.

=========================

Warrior added:
Rom 1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
Rom 1:22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
Rom 1:23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
------------------------------
Jim answers:
That is what sinful man has always done. They have been making statues of men, and claiming they are images of God from Exodus through to today.

That doesn't make John 1:1 wrong, it makes sinful man wrong for making "graven images." Verse 21 says they became vain in their IMAGINATIONS. That is how they changed God into an image, in their IMAGINATION.

Warrior, you left off these verses:
• Rom. 1:24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
Rom. 1:25 WHO CHANGED THE TRUTH OF GOD INTO**A LIE**, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

I don't see how that makes John 1:1 a problem. In fact, I think that is exactly what some of the translators have done with their new Bible versions: They have changed the truth of God INTO A LIE!!

DJim

The way most versions translates John 1:1 was God, is a mistranslation. The verse translated that way contradicts itself.

Notice the very next verse.
Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:2 He was in the beginning with God.

Why would he say with God twice ? MEANING MORE THAN ONE.

How can you be with something if you were the only one? Now i know this writer did not intend to say God was Jesus. If you look in chapter 5 of john you will see that is not what he is saying.

How come Jesus tried clearing things up when the jews thought he made himself equal to God?

Joh 5:15 The man departed and told the Jews that it was Jesus who had made him whole.
Joh 5:16 And therefore the Jews persecuted Jesus and sought to kill Him, because He had done these things on the sabbath day.
Joh 5:17 But Jesus answered them, My Father works until now, and I work.
Joh 5:18 Then, because of this, the Jews sought the more to kill Him, because He not only had broken the sabbath, but also said that God was His father, making Himself equal with God.
Joh 5:19 Then Jesus answered and said to them, Truly, truly, I say to you, The Son can do nothing of Himself but what He sees the Father do. For whatever things He does, these also the Son does likewise.
Joh 5:20 For the Father loves the Son and shows Him all the things that He Himself does. And He will show Him greater works than these, so that you may marvel.
Joh 5:21 For as the Father raises the dead and makes alive, even so the Son of Man makes alive whomever He wills.
Joh 5:22 For the Father judges no man, but has committed all judgment to the Son,
Joh 5:23 so that all should honor the Son, even as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him.

We know by Jesus own words he is not equal to the father.
Joh 14:28 You have heard how I said to you, I go away and I am coming to you again. If you loved Me, you would rejoice because I said, I go to the Father, for My Father is greater than I.

Are they one God?
Joh 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.
Joh 17:6 I have revealed Your name to the men whom You gave to Me out of the world. They were Yours, and You gave them to Me, and they have kept Your word.

Here again he wants his followers to be one, and in each other ,like him and his father, How is this possible?

Joh 17:19 And I sanctify Myself for their sakes, so that they also might be sanctified in truth.
Joh 17:20 And I do not pray for these alone, but for those also who shall believe on Me through their word,
Joh 17:21 that they all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You, that they also may be one in Us, so that the world may believe that You have sent Me.
Joh 17:22 And I have given them the glory which You have given Me, that they may be one, even as We are one,
Joh 17:23 I in them, and You in Me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that You have sent Me and have loved them as You have loved Me.

So it is very clear they are not the same being.


How can we be one like Jesus and his father?
Joh 17:11 And now I am in the world no longer, but these are in the world, and I come to You, Holy Father. Keep them in Your name, those whom You have given Me, so that they may be one as We are

[Angryamerican]

One other question should be asked, if you are gonna believe in the trinity or that Jesus is God.

When God died who resurrected him?

Ecc 9:10 Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with all your might; for there is no work, nor plan, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave where you go

Psa 146:4 His breath goes forth; he returns to the earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.

The state of the dead.

[DispensationalJim]

Dear Ralittlefield, I surely did NOT mind at all that you joined in. You are welcome anytime.

========================
Dear Angryamerican:
What a loving name. It makes us all feel so fuzzy and warm when we see your handle.

Anyway, as several of us have said several times on this thread,
JESUS MADE HIMSELF INTO A MAN according to Phil. 2, etc.. If He made Himself into a man, then what must He have been before He became a man? Who do you know who could make himself into a man? That proves that He existed before He came to earth, among other things, doesn't it?

Therefore, while Jesus was a man, He HAD to be subservient to His Holy Father, didn't He? If He was God, and GAVE UP that "God-ness" (omnipotence, omnipresence, omniscience, etc.), that would explain all those situations where The Father was "greater" than the Son.
----------------------------------

I noticed that you guys always want to run to other translations. Then that makes you God, doesn't it? If YOU can decide what God "really meant to say," then you must be smarter than God. If you look long enough, you can surely find a translation that puts a verse in the words you wish it said.

That is one of the many reasons I stick with the good old KJV. I'd rather let God be THE AUTHORITY.

I don't think I've seen a response to these verses:
• 1Tim. 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
• Titus 2:13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
• Heb. 1:8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

It's getting late. Hope to see you all tomorrow after church.

DispensationalJim

[Angryamerican]

Dear Ralittlefield, I surely did NOT mind at all that you joined in. You are welcome anytime.

========================
Dear Angryamerican:
What a loving name. It makes us all feel so fuzzy and warm when we see your handle.

Anyway, as several of us have said several times on this thread,
JESUS MADE HIMSELF INTO A MAN according to Phil. 2, etc.. If He made Himself into a man, then what must He have been before He became a man? Who do you know who could make himself into a man? That proves that He existed before He came to earth, among other things, doesn't it?

Therefore, while Jesus was a man, He HAD to be subservient to His Holy Father, didn't He? If He was God, and GAVE UP that "God-ness" (omnipotence, omnipresence, omniscience, etc.), that would explain all those situations where The Father was "greater" than the Son.
----------------------------------

I noticed that you guys always want to run to other translations. Then that makes you God, doesn't it? If YOU can decide what God "really meant to say," then you must be smarter than God. If you look long enough, you can surely find a translation that puts a verse in the words you wish it said.

That is one of the many reasons I stick with the good old KJV. I'd rather let God be THE AUTHORITY.

I don't think I've seen a response to these verses:
• 1Tim. 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
• Titus 2:13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
• Heb. 1:8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

It's getting late. Hope to see you all tomorrow after church.

DispensationalJim

Yeah i need to change that handle lol. That was the name i took shortly after the libs decided to no longer support the president.

I do have to ask you if you feel that all translations are translated correctly?

I can't seem to understand why you can't see that John 1:1 contradicts itself first in john 1:1 and than again in john1:2 John 1:1 is clearly a mistranslation.

I suggest that anyone that wants to believe in the trinity or that Jesus is God, do more research on the proper translation of several scriptures that are used to support the the trinity or Jesus being God.

God and Jesus ,They are clearly not Equal ,and they are not both all knowing.

Jesus is a mighty God but the Almighty.He is the only begotten son. He is in subjection to his father. He made his fathers name known to men. There is so much evidence that supports him being the actual son of God.


How come you can't see that john was clear on the subject of Jesus and God?

I strongly suggest for all to read ,and meditate ,and pray, On the book of JOHN. The writer is very clear about our relationship between us as believers and the relationship between God and Jesus.

I would also suggest that you don't use words to describe God through mans words. I think God did a pretty good job ,explaining Himself and Jesus.Also research the history of the trinity and where it came from and who brought it in to Christianity.

God cannot lie , keep that in mind when you are reading scripture and you will be ok.

All of my reading is from the mkjv version king james. And i see the mistakes in translation. Also check out the catholic douey concordance, It also translates John 1:1 as a god. Not was God.

The early Christians didn't believe in the trinity why?

Not until it was forced on them from the catholic church 325 ce.

In 1st tim 3:16 what is your point? God sent his son and he did all those things. So you think God is a mystery? And he is a confusing doctrine?

1Co 14:33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.

Do you understand the warning about doctrines of men?

Mat 15:9 But in vain they worship Me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men
Mar 7:7 However, they worship Me in vain, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men
Col 2:22 which things are all for corruption in the using, according to the commands and doctrines of men?

I think i would make sure i don't believe in a doctrine of men wouldn"t you?

The truth can be found in my kjv just as easy as yours.

[Angryamerican]

Dear Ralittlefield, I surely did NOT mind at all that you joined in. You are welcome anytime.

========================
Dear Angryamerican:
What a loving name. It makes us all feel so fuzzy and warm when we see your handle.

Anyway, as several of us have said several times on this thread,
JESUS MADE HIMSELF INTO A MAN according to Phil. 2, etc.. If He made Himself into a man, then what must He have been before He became a man? Who do you know who could make himself into a man? That proves that He existed before He came to earth, among other things, doesn't it?

Therefore, while Jesus was a man, He HAD to be subservient to His Holy Father, didn't He? If He was God, and GAVE UP that "God-ness" (omnipotence, omnipresence, omniscience, etc.), that would explain all those situations where The Father was "greater" than the Son.
----------------------------------

I noticed that you guys always want to run to other translations. Then that makes you God, doesn't it? If YOU can decide what God "really meant to say," then you must be smarter than God. If you look long enough, you can surely find a translation that puts a verse in the words you wish it said.

That is one of the many reasons I stick with the good old KJV. I'd rather let God be THE AUTHORITY.

I don't think I've seen a response to these verses:
• 1Tim. 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
• Titus 2:13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
• Heb. 1:8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

It's getting late. Hope to see you all tomorrow after church.

DispensationalJim

Are you also forgetting that no one has seen God at any time?
Joh 1:18 No one has seen God at any time; the Only-begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him
1Jn 4:12 No one has seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwells in us, and His love is perfected in us.

Are you forgetting that we can't see god and live?
1Jn 4:12 No one has seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwells in us, and His love is perfected in us.

But it's funny plenty saw Christ. And you can't use the argument well Christ was a man, Because he was seen by the followers right after his resurrection and he wasn't a man .

Mar 16:9 And when Jesus had risen early the first day of the Sabbath, He appeared first to Mary Magdalene, out of whom He had cast seven demons

Notice this verse said he appeared in another form.
Mar 16:12 After that He appeared in another form to two of them, walking and going into the country

No man has ever entered heaven.No man can see God and live.
Joh 3:13 And no one has ascended up to Heaven except He who came down from Heaven, the Son of Man who is in Heaven. That verse kinda blows the theory of of lazarus and Abraham being in heaven don't it?

Jesus was the first to be resurrected from the dead and enter heaven.

[Chill-Factor]

Right. The Messiah will not be God. Just a man. A very impressive man, but only a man.

Does your belief teach that the Messiah will previously have existed as an archangel, before becoming a man?

[Chill-Factor]

It is reading in context and cross referencing, you keep looking at one word or verse you end up pretty soon also posting on universal salvation.

Paul was not given any more information than the rest of the apostles, in fact he recieved direction from the governing body in Jerusalem.

Sorry....Paul took directions, from the Holy Spirit of God. What bible are you reading? How many times do you read..."by the Spirit", and compare that to the times you read "by the governing body". Please, stay out of the natural.

[Chill-Factor]

[QUOTE=Mathius;8781541] God made Jesus. QUOTE]
I'm sure you wish there was some scripture to support your claim, huh? Just wishful thinking on your part, I'm happy to say! ;)

[Angryamerican]

[QUOTE=Chill-Factor;8790434]
I'm sure you wish there was some scripture to support your claim, huh? Just wishful thinking on your part, I'm happy to say!

Did Jesus have a beginning?

If not show me him in the OT?

But until then, How bout this? It seems that trinitarians and people, that believe Jesus is God forgot about these scriptures.

Col 1:15 who is the image of the invisible God, the First-born of all creation.

Rev 3:14 And to the angel of the church of the Laodicea write: The Amen, the faithful and true Witness, the Head of the creation of God, says these things:

God has no beginning, He has always been.

[Mathius]

God made Jesus.
I'm sure you wish there was some scripture to support your claim, huh? Just wishful thinking on your part, I'm happy to say! ;)

Matthew 1:18
Now this is how the birth of Jesus Christ came about. When his mother Mary was betrothed to Joseph, but before they lived together, she was found with child through the holy Spirit.

Oops I was wrong God didn't make Jesus, it was the holy Spirit. But wait some say that God is the holy Spirit so God did make Jesus. Are there any other scripture besides Matthew, maybe Matthew got it wrong? How about we try Luke

Luke 1:35
And the angel said to her in reply, "The holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. Therefore the child to be born will be called holy, the Son of God.

Does John say anything about this birth of Jesus?

John 1:14
And the Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us, and we saw his glory, the glory as of the Father's only Son, full of grace and truth.

[Harmonious]

Does your belief teach that the Messiah will previously have existed as an archangel, before becoming a man?

Nope. He'll just be a man, born from parents like you and me.

[Angryamerican]

Does your belief teach that the Messiah will previously have existed as an archangel, before becoming a man?

I will ask you to show us who Jesus was before the new testament?

Who was the Angel of the Lord? Why did that angel appear in behalf of God to moses? Why did he represent The Lord so many times?

Exo 3:2 And the Angel of Jehovah appeared to him in a flame of fire, out of the midst of a thorn bush. And he looked. And behold! The thorn bush burned with fire! And the thorn bush was not burned up.
Exo 3:3 And Moses said, I will now turn aside and see this great sight, why the thorn bush is not burned up.
Exo 3:4 And Jehovah saw that he had turned aside to see. God called to him out of the midst of the thorn bush, and said, Moses! Moses! And he said, Here I am.
Exo 3:5 And He said, Do not come near here. Pull off your sandals from your feet, for the place on which you stand is holy ground.
Exo 3:6 And He said, I am the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. And Moses hid his face, for he was afraid to look upon God.

Not saying Jesus was an archangel mind you. But i think it would be interesting to see Christ in the OT since he was there.Why was Christ given the greatest name?

And was it the greatest name excluding Jehovah?
Psa 83:18 so that men may know that Your name is JEHOVAH, that You alone are the Most High over all the earth.

1Sa 12:22 For Jehovah will not forsake His people for His great name's sake, because it has pleased Jehovah to make you His people.
1Sa 12:22 For Jehovah will not forsake His people for His great name's sake, because it has pleased Jehovah to make you His people.

Here we see men in the bosom of their sons, But Jesus was said to be in the bosom of his father.
Jer 32:18 You show loving-kindness to thousands, and repay the iniquity of the fathers into the bosom of their sons after them. The great, the mighty God, Jehovah of Hosts, is His name,
Jer 32:18 You show loving-kindness to thousands, and repay the iniquity of the fathers into the bosom of their sons after them. The great, the mighty God, Jehovah of Hosts, is His name,
Eze 36:23 And I will sanctify My great name, which was profaned among the nations, which you have profaned in their midst. And the nations shall know that I am Jehovah, says the Lord Jehovah, when I shall be sanctified in you before their eyes
Mal 1:11 For from the rising of the sun even to its going in, My name shall be great among the nations; and everywhere incense shall be offered to My name, and a pure food offering. For My name shall be great among the nations, says Jehovah of Hosts.
Mal 1:14 But cursed be a deceiver; and there is in his flock a male, yet he vows it, but sacrifices to Jehovah a blemished one. For I am a great king, says Jehovah of Hosts, and My name is feared among the nations

Jesus took on a different form once resurrected.
Joh 20:14 And when she had said this, she turned backward and saw Jesus standing, but she did not know that it was Jesus.

[Harmonious]

I will ask you to show us who Jesus was before the new testament?

Who was the Angel of the Lord? Why did that angel appear in behalf of God to moses? Why did he represent The Lord so many times?

Not saying Jesus was an archangel mind you. But i think it would be interesting to see Christ in the OT since he was there.Why was Christ given the greatest name?

And was it the greatest name excluding Jehovah?
Psa 83:18 so that men may know that Your name is JEHOVAH, that You alone are the Most High over all the earth.

1Sa 12:22 For Jehovah will not forsake His people for His great name's sake, because it has pleased Jehovah to make you His people.
1Sa 12:22 For Jehovah will not forsake His people for His great name's sake, because it has pleased Jehovah to make you His people.

Here we see men in the bosom of their sons, But Jesus was said to be in the bosom of his father.
Jer 32:18 You show loving-kindness to thousands, and repay the iniquity of the fathers into the bosom of their sons after them. The great, the mighty God, Jehovah of Hosts, is His name,
Jer 32:18 You show loving-kindness to thousands, and repay the iniquity of the fathers into the bosom of their sons after them. The great, the mighty God, Jehovah of Hosts, is His name,
Eze 36:23 And I will sanctify My great name, which was profaned among the nations, which you have profaned in their midst. And the nations shall know that I am Jehovah, says the Lord Jehovah, when I shall be sanctified in you before their eyes
Mal 1:11 For from the rising of the sun even to its going in, My name shall be great among the nations; and everywhere incense shall be offered to My name, and a pure food offering. For My name shall be great among the nations, says Jehovah of Hosts.
Mal 1:14 But cursed be a deceiver; and there is in his flock a male, yet he vows it, but sacrifices to Jehovah a blemished one. For I am a great king, says Jehovah of Hosts, and My name is feared among the nations

Jesus took on a different form once resurrected.
Joh 20:14 And when she had said this, she turned backward and saw Jesus standing, but she did not know that it was Jesus.

No, Jesus is NOT in the OT. I looked over the verses that you brought, and I don't see Jesus anywhere.

Jesus just isn't there.

[Angryamerican]

No, Jesus is NOT in the OT. I looked over the verses that you brought, and I don't see Jesus anywhere.

Jesus just isn't there.

Thats exactly my point. According to my belief Christ did not take on the name Jesus until he came to the earth. Clearly we see that Jesus is not God Almighty, But i do believe he existed in heaven before he came to the earth.

But harmonious who do you say the Angel of the Lord is?

Thanks harmonious.

[Harmonious]

Thats exactly my point. According to my belief Christ did not take on the name Jesus until he came to the earth. Clearly we see that Jesus is not God Almighty, But i do believe he existed in heaven before he came to the earth.

But harmonious who do you say the Angel of the Lord is?

Thanks harmonious.

There are lots of angels. I don't think that any are more special than any others.

[Angryamerican]

There are lots of angels. I don't think that any are more special than any others.

Not even archangel's ?there is only two of them spoken of.

The angel gabriel and michael.

Dan 8:16 And I heard a man's voice between the banks of Ulai, which called and said, Gabriel, make this one understand the vision.

Michael appears in the new testament. But i won't bother quoting that since you don't believe in the NT.

But i agree with the jews on most things ,but thats where we draw the difference, is the new testament and Jesus.

But is the messiah only gonna be a man like the Jews think?
Isa 9:6 For to us a Child is born, to us a Son is given; and the government shall be on His shoulder; and His name shall be called Wonderful, Counselor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

Doesn't this show there will be an end to the messiah? and from that point on there will always be war?
Dan 9:26 And after sixty-two weeks Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself. And the people of the ruler who shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. And the end of it shall be with the flood, and ruins are determined, until the end shall be war.

It seems the angel of the Lord is someone special.
Jdg 6:22 And when Gideon saw that He was the Angel of Jehovah, Gideon said, Alas, O Lord God! Because I have seen the Angel of Jehovah face to face.

[Harmonious]

Not even archangel's ?there is only two of them spoken of.

The angel gabriel and michael.

Dan 8:16 And I heard a man's voice between the banks of Ulai, which called and said, Gabriel, make this one understand the vision.

Michael appears in the new testament. But i won't bother quoting that since you don't believe in the NT.If it makes you happy, I'll tell you that at night, Jews say "In the name of the LORD, the God of Israel, to my right is Michael, to my left is Gabriel, before me is Uriel, behind me is Refael, and over my head is the Presence of God."

Gabriel gets all kinds of good press. Does that make him special? Maybe. But not so much that it gets in the way of day-to-day activities. Jews talk to God, and the angels do their thing. Their business isn't our business.

But i agree with the jews on most things ,but thats where we draw the difference, is the new testament and Jesus.We knew that coming into this.

But is the messiah only gonna be a man like the Jews think?
Isa 9:6 For to us a Child is born, to us a Son is given; and the government shall be on His shoulder; and His name shall be called Wonderful, Counselor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.No, no, no. You've got the grammar all wrong.

5. For a child has been born to us, a son given to us, and the authority is upon his shoulder, and the wondrous adviser, the mighty God, the everlasting Father, called his name, "the prince of peace."

He's going to be just a man. A very impressive man, but still, only a man.

Doesn't this show there will be an end to the messiah? and from that point on there will always be war?
Dan 9:26 And after sixty-two weeks Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself. And the people of the ruler who shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. And the end of it shall be with the flood, and ruins are determined, until the end shall be war.No. Poisonshady is a lot better at explaining Daniel than I am, but to put it simply, the person annointed in Daniel is NOT the Messiah who the Jews are waiting for.

In Daniel, the fellow was Agrippa, who was an illegitimate king of the Jews.

Rashi says it quite nicely.

24. Seventy weeks [of years] have been decreed upon your people and upon the city of your Sanctuary to terminate the transgression and to end sin, and to expiate iniquity, and to bring eternal righteousness, and to seal up vision and prophet, and to anoint the Holy of Holies.

Seventy weeks [of years] have been decreed on Jerusalem from the day of the first destruction in the days of Zedekiah until it will be [destroyed] the second time.

to terminate the transgression and to end sin so that Israel should receive their complete retribution in the exile of Titus and his subjugation, in order that their transgressions should terminate, their sins should end, and their iniquities should be expiated, in order to bring upon them eternal righteousness and to anoint upon them (sic) the Holy of Holies: the Ark, the altars, and the holy vessels, which they will bring to them through the king Messiah. The number of seven weeks is four hundred and ninety years. The Babylonian exile was seventy [years] and the Second Temple stood four hundred and twenty [years].

25. And you shall know and understand that from the emergence of the word to restore and to rebuild Jerusalem until the anointed king [shall be] seven weeks, and [in] sixty-two weeks it will return and be built street and moat, but in troubled times.

And you shall know and understand from the emergence of the word From the emergence of this word, which emerged at the beginning of your supplications to tell you, you shall know to understand [how] to restore and build Jerusalem.

until the anointed king Time will be given from the day of the destruction until the coming of Cyrus, king of Persia, about whom the Holy One, blessed be He, said that he would return and build His city, and He called him His anointed and His king, as it says (Isa. 45:1): “So said the Lord to His anointed one, to Cyrus etc.” (verse 13): “He shall build My city and free My exiles, etc.”

seven weeks Seven complete shemittah cycles they will be in exile before Cyrus comes, and there were yet three more years, but since they did not constitute a complete shemittah cycle, they were not counted. In the one year of Darius, in which Daniel was standing when this vision was said to him, seventy years from the conquest of Jehoiakim terminated. Deduct eighteen years from them, in which the conquest of Jehoiakim preceded the destruction of Jerusalem, leaving fifty-two years. This is what our Rabbis learned (Yoma 54a): “For fifty-two years no one passed through Judea.” They are the fifty-two years from the day of the destruction until they returned in the days of Cyrus. Hence, we have seven shemittah cycles and three years.

and in sixty-two weeks it will return and be built i.e., the city with its streets.

and moat Heb. וְחָרוּץ. They are the moats that they make around the wall to strengthen the city, which are called fosse in French, ditch or moat.

but in troubled times But in those times they will be troubled and distressed, for in the subjugation of the kings of Persia and the heathens, they will burden them with harsh bondage. Now although there are sixty-two weeks and four years more that remain from the eighth week, whose beginning, viz. the three years, was included in the fifty-two years of the duration of the exile, those four years were not counted here because here he counted only weeks, and you find that from the beginning he started to count seventy weeks, and at the end, when he delineated their times and their judgments, he counted only sixty-nine, proving that one week was divided, part of it here and part of it there; and he mentioned only whole weeks.

but in troubled times They will be troubled in those times.

26. And after the sixty-two weeks, the anointed one will be cut off, and he will be no more, and the people of the coming monarch will destroy the city and the Sanctuary, and his end will come about by inundation, and until the end of the war, it will be cut off into desolation.

And after those weeks.

the anointed one will be cut off Agrippa, the king of Judea, who was ruling at the time of the destruction, will be slain.

and he will be no more Heb. וְאֵין לוֹ, and he will not have. The meaning is that he will not be.

the anointed one Heb. מָשִׁיחַ. This is purely an expression of a prince and a dignitary.

and the city and the Sanctuary lit. and the city and the Holy.

and the people of the coming monarch will destroy [The monarch who will come] upon them. That is Titus and his armies.

and his end will come about by inundation And his end will be damnation and destruction, for He will inundate the power of his kingdom through the Messiah, and until the end of the wars of Gog the city will exist.

cut off into desolation a destruction of desolation.
It seems the angel of the Lord is someone special.
Jdg 6:22 And when Gideon saw that He was the Angel of Jehovah, Gideon said, Alas, O Lord God! Because I have seen the Angel of Jehovah face to face.
Well, yes. Seeing angels face to face isn't an every day occasion. However, the angel isn't God. When all is said and done, an angel is just an angel.

[Chill-Factor]

I will ask you to show us who Jesus was before the new testament?

Sure!

Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man [of] the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Gen 1:27 So God created man in his [own] image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

John 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Who was the Angel of the Lord? Why did that angel appear in behalf of God to moses? Why did he represent The Lord so many times?

Exo 3:2 And the Angel of Jehovah appeared to him in a flame of fire, out of the midst of a thorn bush. And he looked. And behold! The thorn bush burned with fire! And the thorn bush was not burned up.
Exo 3:3 And Moses said, I will now turn aside and see this great sight, why the thorn bush is not burned up.
Exo 3:4 And Jehovah saw that he had turned aside to see. God called to him out of the midst of the thorn bush, and said, Moses! Moses! And he said, Here I am.
Exo 3:5 And He said, Do not come near here. Pull off your sandals from your feet, for the place on which you stand is holy ground.
Exo 3:6 And He said, I am the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. And Moses hid his face, for he was afraid to look upon God.

Not saying Jesus was an archangel mind you. But i think it would be interesting to see Christ in the OT since he was there. What exactly are you saying? If you're saying that the "Angel of the Lord " is the Word, before becoming flesh, then we are in agreement.

Why was Christ given the greatest name?
Who is greater, than Christ?

And was it the greatest name excluding Jehovah?

I think, God could easily have written "excluding YHWH" in His scriptures, If He was power-tripping over name card placement. He chose not to...so I'll go by what His word states....Jesus the name above all names! You need to drop this personal name nonsense, and realize "name" is not about some word a parents decides to call their newborn. It's not as superficial as that, you know! You can think otherwise, but Almighty God does not get ectastic every time He hears that aberration of YHWH, that you're so fond of saying!
Satan can utter even the "true" pronunciation of YHWH, but what does it profit him... I hope you're getting my drift!
Sanctifying His "name" is not about pronouncing a word....it's about placing complete and unshakeable confidence in His Being, and demonstrating our adoration of His character and attributes, through reverance and worship.


Psa 83:18 so that men may know that Your name is JEHOVAH, that You alone are the Most High over all the earth.

1Sa 12:22 For Jehovah will not forsake His people for His great name's sake, because it has pleased Jehovah to make you His people.
1Sa 12:22 For Jehovah will not forsake His people for His great name's sake, because it has pleased Jehovah to make you His people.

Here we see men in the bosom of their sons, But Jesus was said to be in the bosom of his father.
Jer 32:18 You show loving-kindness to thousands, and repay the iniquity of the fathers into the bosom of their sons after them. The great, the mighty God, Jehovah of Hosts, is His name,
Jer 32:18 You show loving-kindness to thousands, and repay the iniquity of the fathers into the bosom of their sons after them. The great, the mighty God, Jehovah of Hosts, is His name,
Eze 36:23 And I will sanctify My great name, which was profaned among the nations, which you have profaned in their midst. And the nations shall know that I am Jehovah, says the Lord Jehovah, when I shall be sanctified in you before their eyes
Mal 1:11 For from the rising of the sun even to its going in, My name shall be great among the nations; and everywhere incense shall be offered to My name, and a pure food offering. For My name shall be great among the nations, says Jehovah of Hosts.
Mal 1:14 But cursed be a deceiver; and there is in his flock a male, yet he vows it, but sacrifices to Jehovah a blemished one. For I am a great king, says Jehovah of Hosts, and My name is feared among the nations

Jesus took on a different form once resurrected.
Joh 20:14 And when she had said this, she turned backward and saw Jesus standing, but she did not know that it was Jesus.[/QUOTE]

Your reasoning is base on a presupposition that YHWH identifies only the Father. You need to prove that first, before asking me questions based on presupposition! And what does "taking on a different form" have to do with a discussion on the Name YHWH. Try not to copy and paste questions or answers, from old posts...we should always keep our brains on active mode! Inspiration will never come through a mind that assumes it already has all the answers!

[Angryamerican]

[QUOTE=Chill-Factor;8794472]Sure!

Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man [of] the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Gen 1:27 So God created man in his [own] image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

John 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

What exactly are you saying? If you're saying that the "Angel of the Lord " is the Word, before becoming flesh, then we are in agreement.


Who is greater, than Christ?



I think, God could easily have written "excluding YHWH" in His scriptures, If He was power-tripping over name card placement. He chose not to...so I'll go by what His word states....Jesus the name above all names! You need to drop this personal name nonsense, and realize "name" is not about some word a parents decides to call their newborn. It's not as superficial as that, you know! You can think otherwise, but Almighty God does not get ectastic every time He hears that aberration of YHWH, that you're so fond of saying!
Satan can utter even the "true" pronunciation of YHWH, but what does it profit him... I hope you're getting my drift!
Sanctifying His "name" is not about pronouncing a word....it's about placing complete and unshakeable confidence in His Being, and demonstrating our adoration of His character and attributes, through reverance and worship.




Who is greater you ask.


John 14:28

Christ had a beginning. The Almighty has always been.

How can any part of God be lesser than the other part?

I wrote most everything other then what i pasted from the kjv.

I thought you approved of that bible.

I really don't need to prove anything God did that for me.

Who resurrected God? By your thinking.

If Jesus was the greatest name bestowed on God, how come he waited 4,000 years to disclose it?

How come we don't hear of Jesus in the OT?

Because he was promoted to a higher position by his father, For coming to the earth and dieing for mankind.

And where is the holy spirit in your beliefs? Since he was the one that caused Jesus to become a man. And the Holy spirit is God after all.

And when Jesus appeared to the followers after his resurrection, He did not refer himself to being Jehovah but he said he was Jesus. How come they didn't reconize him? Evidently he took on his form he had before he came to the earth. And yet no one, no one, has ever seen God.

[DispensationalJim]

WHO RAISED JESUS FROM THE DEAD?

FIRST, WE MUST REMEMBER THAT JESUS, GOD THE SON, MADE HIMSELF INTO A MAN, PLACING HIMSELF VOLUNTARILY UNDER THE "CARE" OF GOD HIS FATHER!
• Phil. 2:5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: 6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: 7 But *** made himself *** of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: 8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

COULD ANYONE BUT GOD MAKE HIMSELF INTO A MAN?

========================

JESUS KNEW HE WOULD DIE AND RISE AGAIN, AND TOLD HIS DISCIPLES SO MANY TIMES!
• Matt. 20:19 And shall deliver him to the Gentiles to mock, and to scourge, and to crucify him: and the third day he shall rise again.
• Matt. 26:32 But after I am risen again, I will go before you into Galilee.
• Matt. 27:63 Saying, Sir, we remember that that deceiver said, while he was yet alive, After three days I will rise again.
• Mark 8:31 And he began to teach them, that the Son of man must suffer many things, and be rejected of the elders, and of the chief priests, and scribes, and be killed, and after three days rise again.
• Mark 10:34 And they shall mock him, and shall scourge him, and shall spit upon him, and shall kill him: and the third day he shall rise again.
• Mark 14:28 But after that I am risen, I will go before you into Galilee.
• Luke 7:16 And there came a fear on all: and they glorified God, saying, That a great prophet is risen up among us; and, That **God** hath visited his people.
• Luke 18:33 And they shall scourge him, and put him to death: and the third day he shall rise again.
• Luke 24:7 Saying, The Son of man must be delivered into the hands of sinful men, and be crucified, and the third day rise again.

IF JESUS WAS NOT GOD, HOW COULD HE KNOW THAT HE WOULD DIE AND RISE AGAIN?

=========================

GOD, THE HOLY SPIRIT, SENT JESUS TO US, AND EVENTUALLY WAS A PART OF HIS RESURRECTION!
• Luke 4:18 The ***Spirit of the Lord*** is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath *** sent me*** to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,
• Luke 11:13 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?
• John 1:32 And John bare record, saying, I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and it abode upon him.
• John 7:39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)
• John 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
• Acts 8:29 Then the Spirit said unto Philip, Go near, and join thyself to this chariot. ... 39 And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing. ... 10:19 While Peter thought on the vision, the Spirit said unto him, Behold, three men seek thee. ... 11:12 And the Spirit bade me go with them, nothing doubting. Moreover these six brethren accompanied me, and we entered into the man’s house:
• Acts 21:4 And finding disciples, we tarried there seven days: who said to Paul through the Spirit, that he should not go up to Jerusalem.

• Rom. 8:11 But if ***the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead*** dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you. ... 13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. 14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

ALL OF THOSE VERSES SHOW THE HOLY SPIRIT TO BE AN INDIVIDUAL ENTITY WITH ABILITY TO PERFORM VARIOUS FUNCTIONS, TO SPEAK, TO SEND, TO ANOINT, ETC., ETC...

==========================

JESUS SAID HE WOULD RAISE HIMSELF UP!
• John 2:19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days *** I will raise it up ***. ... 22 When therefore he was risen from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this unto them; and they believed the scripture, and the word which Jesus had said.
================================

JESUS IS HIMSELF THE RESURRECTION!
• John 11:25 Jesus said unto her, **I am** the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:

• Phil. 3:10 That I may know him, and the power of **his** resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;

========================

BUT ULTIMATELY IT WAS GOD THE FATHER WHO RAISED GOD THE SON (JESUS) FROM THE DEAD.

• 1Pet. 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

SO WE SEE THE GODHEAD (GOD THE FATHER, GOD THE SON, AND GOD THE HOLY SPIRIT) INVOLVED IN THE RESURRECTION OF JESUS CHRIST.

DispensationalJim

[Angryamerican]

If Jesus has always been who was he?

Why no mention of Jesus in the OT?

How come they are not equal if they are the same being?

How come Jesus is not all knowing?

How come we saw Jesus, but not the father if he is God?

You see you have to many unanswered questions and there are plenty more.

[DispensationalJim]

Good morning, Angry!

You asked:If Jesus has always been who was he?
Why no mention of Jesus in the OT?
How come they are not equal if they are the same being?
How come Jesus is not all knowing?
How come we saw Jesus, but not the father if he is God?
=======================

Jim's answers:
Who and where was Jesus in the Old Testament?

Here are a few of the many verses for you to consider:
• Is. 7:14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name **Immanuel**.
• Is. 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, ***The mighty God***, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

Fulfilled here:
• Matt. 1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins. 22 Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, 23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name **Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us**.
• Matt. 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
Luke 2:11 For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Saviour, which is Christ **the Lord**.
Eph. 2:14 For **he is our peace**, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
Titus 2:13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of **the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ**;

=========================
• Psa. 45:6 Thy throne, **O God, is for ever and ever**: the sceptre of thy kingdom is a right sceptre.

Fulfilled here:
• Heb. 1:1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, 2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also ***he made the worlds***; 3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and **upholding all things by the word of his power**, when he had **by himself purged our sins**, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high; 4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they. 5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son? 6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him. 7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire. 8 ****But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever***: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom. 9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows. 10 And, ***Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands***: 11 They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment; 12 And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail. 13 But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?

========================
JESUS WAS NOT "EQUAL" TO THE FATHER WHILE JESUS WAS ON THIS EARTH

God the Father and God the Son have different FUNCTIONS in the GODHEAD. The Son is ALWAYS SUBSERVIENT TO THE FATHER.
But the main issue is why Jesus was not equal to the Father when He was ON EARTH in the FORM OF A MAN. As is obvious from many verses (mainly Philippians 2), Jesus voluntarily gave up many of His Godly attributes in order to become a man SO HE COULD DIE FOR OUR SINS. If He had retained all of His "Godness," He could NOT have died, as you, Angry, and others have mentioned.

=========================

JESUS WAS NOT ALL-KNOWING ON EARTH

He could NOT be all-knowing while in a human body, although He did have some capabilities which He demonstrated while in that human body:
• Matt. 9:4 And Jesus knowing their thoughts said, Wherefore think ye evil in your hearts?
• Matt. 9:5 For whether is easier, to say, Thy sins be forgiven thee; or to say, Arise, and walk? 6 But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins, (then saith he to the sick of the palsy,) Arise, take up thy bed, and go unto thine house.
• Mark 2:7 Why doth this man thus speak blasphemies? who can forgive sins but God only?
• Luke 5:21 And the scribes and the Pharisees began to reason, saying, Who is this which speaketh blasphemies? Who can forgive sins, but God alone?

=========================

HAVE WE SEEN THE FATHER?

• John 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?

• John 10:30 I and my Father are one.
• John 17:22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
• 1John 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

ANY MORE QUESTIONS, ANGRY??

DispensationalJim

[Angryamerican]

[QUOTE=DispensationalJim;8798171]

I see what you are saying but,It says The Lord will give a sign, And the sign was bringing about Jesus.And those were titles given to Jesus. Of course God his with us even though he gave is only begotten son.

All power has been given to him. That means he didn't always have it. References to him being a mighty God but not the Almighty God.

How is this showing Jesus as God or a Trinity?
• Psa. 45:6 Thy throne, **O God, is for ever and ever**: the sceptre of thy kingdom is a right sceptre.

Fulfilled here:
• Heb. 1:1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, 2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also ***he made the worlds***; 3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and **upholding all things by the word of his power**, when he had **by himself purged our sins**, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high; 4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they. 5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son? 6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him. 7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire. 8 ****But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever***: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom. 9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows. 10 And, ***Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands***: 11 They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment; 12 And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail. 13 But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?

========================
JESUS WAS NOT "EQUAL" TO THE FATHER WHILE JESUS WAS ON THIS EARTH

God the Father and God the Son have different FUNCTIONS in the GODHEAD. The Son is ALWAYS SUBSERVIENT TO THE FATHER.
But the main issue is why Jesus was not equal to the Father when He was ON EARTH in the FORM OF A MAN. As is obvious from many verses (mainly Philippians 2), Jesus voluntarily gave up many of His Godly attributes in order to become a man SO HE COULD DIE FOR OUR SINS. If He had retained all of His "Godness," He could NOT have died, as you, Angry, and others have mentioned.

=========================

Once again either Jesus is the Almighty or he isn't. I already showed that Jesus was seen right after his resurrection, and he was no longer a man. He even took on another form that wasn't reconized by his followers.

Godhead a popular word to use to support the trinity.
Definition of the word.
θεῖος
theios
thi'-os
From G2316; godlike (neuter as noun, divinity): - divine, godhead.

And the only places this word appears there is no Father son and holy ghost,as you try to suggest by using that word.



You are taking another misconception here by the Jews thinking that only God could do those things. Just like when he said he was the son of God, the jews sought to kill him because they thought he made himself equal to God, But as you read on in that chapter Jesus trys to show he wasn't equal to the Father.

JESUS WAS NOT ALL-KNOWING ON EARTH

He could NOT be all-knowing while in a human body, although He did have some capabilities which He demonstrated while in that human body:
• Matt. 9:4 And Jesus knowing their thoughts said, Wherefore think ye evil in your hearts?
• Matt. 9:5 For whether is easier, to say, Thy sins be forgiven thee; or to say, Arise, and walk? 6 But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins, (then saith he to the sick of the palsy,) Arise, take up thy bed, and go unto thine house.
• Mark 2:7 Why doth this man thus speak blasphemies? who can forgive sins but God only?
• Luke 5:21 And the scribes and the Pharisees began to reason, saying, Who is this which speaketh blasphemies? Who can forgive sins, but God alone?

=========================
The Father and son are one in unity not the same being.



Joh 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.
Joh 17:4 I have glorified You upon the earth. I have finished the work which You have given Me to do.
Joh 17:5 And now Father, glorify Me with Yourself with the glory which I had with You before the world was.
Joh 17:6 I have revealed Your name to the men whom You gave to Me out of the world. They were Yours, and You gave them to Me, and they have kept Your word.
Joh 17:7 Now they have known that all things, whatever You have given Me, are from You.
Joh 17:8 For I have given to them the Words which You gave Me, and they have received them and have known surely that I came out from You. And they have believed that You sent Me.
Joh 17:9 I pray for them. I do not pray for the world, but for those whom You have given Me, for they are Yours.
Joh 17:10 And all Mine are Yours, and Yours are Mine; and I am glorified in them.
Joh 17:11 And now I am in the world no longer, but these are in the world, and I come to You, Holy Father. Keep them in Your name, those whom You have given Me, so that they may be one as We are.
Joh 17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in Your name. Those that You have given Me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled.
Joh 17:13 And now I come to You, and these things I speak in the world that they might have My joy fulfilled in them.
Joh 17:14 I have given them Your Word, and the world has hated them because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
Joh 17:15 I do not pray for You to take them out of the world, but for You to keep them from the evil.
Joh 17:16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
Joh 17:17 Sanctify them through Your truth. Your Word is truth.
Joh 17:18 As You have sent Me into the world, even so I have sent them into the world.
Joh 17:19 And I sanctify Myself for their sakes, so that they also might be sanctified in truth.
Joh 17:20 And I do not pray for these alone, but for those also who shall believe on Me through their word,
Joh 17:21 that they all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You, that they also may be one in Us, so that the world may believe that You have sent Me.
Joh 17:22 And I have given them the glory which You have given Me, that they may be one, even as We are one,
Joh 17:23 I in them, and You in Me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that You have sent Me and have loved them as You have loved Me.
Joh 17:24 Father, I desire that those whom You have given Me, that they may be with Me where I am, that they may behold My glory which You have given Me, for You have loved Me before the foundation of the world.
Joh 17:25 O righteous Father, indeed the world has not known You; but I have known You, and these have known that You have sent me.
Joh 17:26 And I made known to them Your name, and will make it known, so that the love with which You have loved Me may be in them, and I in them.

Also read John chapter 5

[Angryamerican]

Good morning jim.

You do realize that many versions of the bible are now changing and or removing 1john 5:7 because, It is a fabrication, Google the verse.
The Christian world is trying hard to cover up the correct wordings of this verse. As it is the only verse in the Bible which came closest to the concept of Trinity, 1John 5:7 (“For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one”), has been detected as a fabrication and a corruption in the Bible by biblical scholars and kept out of the later versions of the Bible. This verse in truth also does not support Jesus’ divinity. So what we find is that as more investigations are
made into the Greek texts of the Bible, Jesus is seen to be losing the “divinity factor”. However it is up to the Christian brothers and sister to realize the games that the Churches are playing with them.

I agree that Jesus and God are one. But why was the Holy spirit left out there? for by your belief he also is part of the trinity.But Jesus is saying him and the father are one in unity.He is also saying that we the followers are to be one like him and his father are one.

Well can all of us followers be one being?

It's better if you don't pluck scripture so you don't miss the point of the chapter.

Joh 10:27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me.
Joh 10:28 And I give to them eternal life, and they shall never ever perish, and not anyone shall pluck them out of My hand.
Joh 10:29 My Father who gave them to me is greater than all, and no one is able to pluck them out of My Father's hand.
Joh 10:30 I and the Father are one!
Joh 10:31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone Him.
Joh 10:32 Jesus answered them, I have shown you many good works from My Father; for which of these do you stone Me?
Joh 10:33 The Jews answered Him, saying, We do not stone you for a good work, but for blasphemy, and because you, being a man, make yourself God.
Joh 10:34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your Law, "I said, You are gods?"
Joh 10:35 If He called those gods with whom the Word of God was, and the Scripture cannot be broken,
Joh 10:36 do you say of Him whom the Father has sanctified and sent into the world, You blaspheme, because I said, I am the Son of God?
Joh 10:37 If I do not do the works of My Father, do not believe Me.
Joh 10:38 But if I do, though you do not believe Me, believe the works so that you may know and believe that the Father is in Me, and I in Him.
Joh 10:39 Then they again sought to seize Him, but He went forth out of their hand.
Joh 10:40 And He went away again beyond Jordan into the place where John baptized at the first, and He stayed there.
Joh 10:41 And many came to Him and said, John indeed did no miracle, but all things that John said concerning this One were true.
Joh 10:42 And many believed on Him there.


So you don't misunderstand about the Father and Jesus being one.

Joh 17:11 And now I am in the world no longer, but these are in the world, and I come to You, Holy Father. Keep them in Your name, those whom You have given Me, so that they may be one as We are.

Joh 17:16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
Joh 17:17 Sanctify them through Your truth. Your Word is truth.
Joh 17:18 As You have sent Me into the world, even so I have sent them into the world.
Joh 17:19 And I sanctify Myself for their sakes, so that they also might be sanctified in truth.
Joh 17:20 And I do not pray for these alone, but for those also who shall believe on Me through their word,
Joh 17:21 that they all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You, that they also may be one in Us, so that the world may believe that You have sent Me.

Joh 17:23 I in them, and You in Me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that You have sent Me and have loved them as You have loved Me.
Joh 17:25 O righteous Father, indeed the world has not known You; but I have known You, and these have known that You have sent me
Joh 17:26 And I made known to them Your name, and will make it known, so that the love with which You have loved Me may be in them, and I in them

Now it doesn't get any clearer than that , About the Father and sons relationship as well as ours with them
They are one in unity not being. And we the followers are to be the same.



NO we have not seen the father at any time ,except through visions or dreams.

1Jn 4:12 No one has seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwells in us, and His love is perfected in us

Joh 1:18 No one has seen God at any time; the Only-begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him.

Exo 33:20 And He said, You cannot see My face. For there no man can see Me and live.

So i ask you again, is Jesus God ?




=========================

HAVE WE SEEN THE FATHER?

• John 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?

• John 10:30 I and my Father are one.
• John 17:22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
• 1John 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

ANY MORE QUESTIONS, ANGRY??

DispensationalJim[/QUOTE]

[DispensationalJim]

Thanks, Angry, for the response.
Please consider this:

• JESUS IS GOD THE CREATOR

* John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. 3 **All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made**.

* Col. 1:12 Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light: 13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son: 14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins: 15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature (see verse 18 below): 16 *** For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him***: 17 And he is before all things, and **by him all things consist**. 18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, ***the firstborn from the dead***; that in all things he might have the preeminence. 19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;

* Heb. 1:1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, 2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, **by whom also he made the worlds**;

Only God has the power to CREATE the worlds!! Would you not agree to that? Therefore, Jesus must be God!

DispensationalJim

[DispensationalJim]

Ooops, sorry, Angry, I almost missed your latest post about 1John 5:7.

As you probably know, I am one of those "nutty" KJV adherants. I did not accept the LKV blindly. I studied the manuscript evidence as much as I could, read several books for and against the KJV only position, and concluded that it is the newer translations that have chosen to use the worst manuscripts based solely on their age.

We have been debating that on the thread "Take the NIV Bible Quiz." I believe there is ABUNDANT EVIDENCE to support the so-called "Johannine comma" (1John 5:7) and I do not believe the many Biblical scholars who support its inclusions are trying to fool anyone. If you want to participate in the Bible version debate, I would invite you to join tracifish and I and several others on that thread.

I am currently reading an excellent old book -- The Revision Revised" -- by Dean Burgon, a Greek expert from the days of Wescott and Hort who was very critical of the Vaticanus and Sinaiticus manuscripts. I hope to begin quoting from it soon.

DJim

[Angryamerican]

Ooops, sorry, Angry, I almost missed your latest post about 1John 5:7.

As you probably know, I am one of those "nutty" KJV adherants. I did not accept the LKV blindly. I studied the manuscript evidence as much as I could, read several books for and against the KJV only position, and concluded that it is the newer translations that have chosen to use the worst manuscripts based solely on their age.

We have been debating that on the thread "Take the NIV Bible Quiz." I believe there is ABUNDANT EVIDENCE to support the so-called "Johannine comma" (1John 5:7) and I do not believe the many Biblical scholars who support its inclusions are trying to fool anyone. If you want to participate in the Bible version debate, I would invite you to join tracifish and I and several others on that thread.

I am currently reading an excellent old book -- The Revision Revised" -- by Dean Burgon, a Greek expert from the days of Wescott and Hort who was very critical of the Vaticanus and Sinaiticus manuscripts. I hope to begin quoting from it soon.

DJim

Ok jim i will check it out.

And have a nice day.

But i can't see Jesus as anything more than the actual son of God.

[Angryamerican]

Ooops, sorry, Angry, I almost missed your latest post about 1John 5:7.

As you probably know, I am one of those "nutty" KJV adherants. I did not accept the LKV blindly. I studied the manuscript evidence as much as I could, read several books for and against the KJV only position, and concluded that it is the newer translations that have chosen to use the worst manuscripts based solely on their age.

We have been debating that on the thread "Take the NIV Bible Quiz." I believe there is ABUNDANT EVIDENCE to support the so-called "Johannine comma" (1John 5:7) and I do not believe the many Biblical scholars who support its inclusions are trying to fool anyone. If you want to participate in the Bible version debate, I would invite you to join tracifish and I and several others on that thread.

I am currently reading an excellent old book -- The Revision Revised" -- by Dean Burgon, a Greek expert from the days of Wescott and Hort who was very critical of the Vaticanus and Sinaiticus manuscripts. I hope to begin quoting from it soon.

DJim

I could not find that thread.

[DRS]

Thanks, Angry, for the response.
Please consider this:

• JESUS IS GOD THE CREATOR

* John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. 3 **All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made**.

* Col. 1:12 Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light: 13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son: 14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins: 15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature (see verse 18 below): 16 *** For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him***: 17 And he is before all things, and **by him all things consist**. 18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, ***the firstborn from the dead***; that in all things he might have the preeminence. 19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;

* Heb. 1:1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, 2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, **by whom also he made the worlds**;

Only God has the power to CREATE the worlds!! Would you not agree to that? Therefore, Jesus must be God!

DispensationalJim

God can give the power to create to whomever He pleases.

He gave humans the power to procreate and look at what man has been able to accomplish using science too.

[DispensationalJim]

Hello again, Angryamerican!

I am going to place a short post on the "Take the NIV Bible Quiz" thread so it will be "bumped" back into "first" place.

Hope that will help you find it.

DJim

[Semi-Sweet]

Gen. 1, The Spirit brooded as a hovering bird to bring forth that which the Creator said, until the work of creation was finished. So in the period of the second creation the Holy Spirit brooded and hovered over the New Family of God in the special gifts and powers and direction until it was finished in complete revelation. There was a direct sealing then, but the Word of Truth has been sealed. We have the seal and the stamp upon us, to be sure, but it is not the same in action--we have the sign, seal and brand stamped on us through the Word of Truth.

The meaning of a seal is a stamp, a brand, a guarantee, such as the seal of a state or a government on a document. It is a distinctive mark by which a thing can be known. [Acts 4:7] "By what power [or authority] have ye done this?" The apostles had the stamp and the sign and the seal of the Holy Spirit on what they had preached and performed, that it was of God. This stamp of the Holy Spirit on us is through the Word of Truth which bears the signature of the Holy Spirit as proof that it is of God. Every Christian today is sealed or stamped by the Holy Spirit as he follows its teaching.

The scriptural meaning and use of the word seal is made plain in the words of Christ in [Jno. 3-33-34] . Refering to himself, Jesus said: "And what he hath seen and heard that he testifieth; and no man receiveth his testimony. He that receiveth his testimony hath set to his seal that God is true. For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him." These verses refer to the testimony of God in and through Jesus Christ_ "he that hath received his testimony hath set to his seal that God is true." is followed by the explanation, "for he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him." The Spirit which God had given to Christ without measure was the seal on the words of God that Christ had spoken. And it was the authority of the same Spirit that sealed "the word of truth" which the inspired apostle had preached to the Ephesians.

[DispensationalJim]

I just posted from Isaiah 9 on another thread, and thought it would be appropriate to put it on here, also.

What do you "antiTrinity" folks do with this famous passage?

• Is. 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, THE MIGHTY GOD, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. 7 Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.

DJim

[DRS]

I just posted from Isaiah 9 on another thread, and thought it would be appropriate to put it on here, also.

What do you "antiTrinity" folks do with this famous passage?

• Is. 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, THE MIGHTY GOD, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. 7 Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.

DJim

This creates no problem when you understand that judges were also called gods to. Jesus as the ultimate appointed judge by ’El Shad·dai′ Jehovah the only whom this term is applied to. So Jesus being called ’El Gib·bohr′

[Mathius]

Luke 12:10
"Everyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but the one who blasphemes against the holy Spirit will not be forgiven.

If Jesus is God or is a part of God then why is it ok to "speaks a word against Jesus" but not the holy Spirit?

[DispensationalJim]

Dear Mathius,
Maybe Jesus is just more loving and forgiving than the Holy Spirit.

Sorry... just joking. The normal response to Luke 12:10 (and Matthew 12:31-32; Mark 3:28) is that Jesus was confronting the Pharisees who were deliberately rejecting the work of God through the Holy Spirit and attributing what God did to Satan.

I will admit that I have always been a bit puzzled by that part of Scripture, but --as usual -- I am so grateful that I am living in the AGE OF GRACE.

========================

DRS:
I already gave a response to what you said about the definition of names in the "works" thread. If need be, I will copy it and post it over here, also.

DispensationalJim

[Mathius]

Luke 22:41-44
[41]After withdrawing about a stone's throw from them and kneeling, he prayed, [42]saying, "Father, if you are willing, take this cup away from me; still, not my will but yours be done." [43](And to strengthen him an angel from heaven appeared to him. [44]He was in such agony and he prayed so fervently that his sweat became like drops of blood falling on the ground.)

If Jesus is God then why does he have a different will(agenda) from God?

[Mathius]

The normal response to Luke 12:10 (and Matthew 12:31-32; Mark 3:28) is that Jesus was confronting the Pharisees who were deliberately rejecting the work of God through the Holy Spirit and attributing what God did to Satan.

DispensationalJim

You still didn't answer my question. If God and Jesus are the same why is it ok to forsake Jesus but not God?

[HisServant]

Luke 22:41-44
[41]After withdrawing about a stone's throw from them and kneeling, he prayed, [42]saying, "Father, if you are willing, take this cup away from me; still, not my will but yours be done." [43](And to strengthen him an angel from heaven appeared to him. [44]He was in such agony and he prayed so fervently that his sweat became like drops of blood falling on the ground.)

If Jesus is God then why does he have a different will(agenda) from God?

Umm has it not dawned on you yet that Jesus being human felt pain and knew that dying on a cross was gonna hurt a lot? So He did not have a different agenda He submitted Himself to God to show us how we ought to react when faced with difficulty. We are to trust Him.

[HisServant]

You still didn't answer my question. If God and Jesus are the same why is it ok to forsake Jesus but not God?

Umm if you reject Jesus you automatically reject God. :rolleyes:

[Mathius]

Umm if you reject Jesus you automatically reject God. :rolleyes:

That is not what the scripture said. I suggest you read it again.

[Mathius]

Umm has it not dawned on you yet that Jesus being human felt pain and knew that dying on a cross was gonna hurt a lot? So He did not have a different agenda He submitted Himself to God to show us how we ought to react when faced with difficulty. We are to trust Him.

I am well aware of Jesus being human. Then why say "not my will but yours be done" if he didn't have a different agenda? How about you answer my question instead of giving me talking points.

[DRS]

Dear Mathius,
Maybe Jesus is just more loving and forgiving than the Holy Spirit.

Sorry... just joking. The normal response to Luke 12:10 (and Matthew 12:31-32; Mark 3:28) is that Jesus was confronting the Pharisees who were deliberately rejecting the work of God through the Holy Spirit and attributing what God did to Satan.

I will admit that I have always been a bit puzzled by that part of Scripture, but --as usual -- I am so grateful that I am living in the AGE OF GRACE.

========================

DRS:
I already gave a response to what you said about the definition of names in the "works" thread. If need be, I will copy it and post it over here, also.

DispensationalJim


The scripture is eay to understand espicially in light of the OT, you call down evil on God and your were put to death, the holy spirit is God's spirit. Where as Jesus is a serperate person not God.

You can post the deifinition sure, Eternal Father was of interest to me for a while until studying the fact that Jesus was replacing Adam. Also of interest Jesus was not father to his brothers, joint heirs.

Also Jesus rule is called princely.

[HisServant]

I am well aware of Jesus being human. Then why say "not my will but yours be done" if he didn't have a different agenda? How about you answer my question instead of giving me talking points.

For a couple of reasons one I'm not Jesus. Two the Bible does not say so we can only guess. So here is my guess. He was about to die a painful death. Knowing that as any human would do He says is there any other way. But Father not my will but yours. Not that difficult to understand.

[wayne230]

Maybe we need to understand that Jesus was the Godman. What I mean by that is he was every bit as much God as he was man. I get the feeling that maybe Jesus said "not my will but Thine" as an example to the rest of us.

[HisServant]

That is not what the scripture said. I suggest you read it again.

Now exactly what verse says you can reject Jesus and still be OK with God?

[Mathius]

For a couple of reasons one I'm not Jesus. Two the Bible does not say so we can only guess. So here is my guess. He was about to die a painful death. Knowing that as any human would do He says is there any other way. But Father not my will but yours. Not that difficult to understand.


So in other words he feared death but following his father's will was greater than his own?

[Mathius]

Now exactly what verse says you can reject Jesus and still be OK with God?

Luke 12:10
"Everyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but the one who blasphemes against the holy Spirit will not be forgiven.

[HisServant]

So in other words he feared death but following his father's will was greater than his own?

No I don't think He feared death. I think the agony He was about to endure He knew would be unreal. Unless you are sadistic most humans would ask is there any other way? Remember He is human. Pain hurts. He did what He did out of Love for us and to show us how to be obedient in the face of adversity. IMO

[Mathius]

Maybe we need to understand that Jesus was the Godman. What I mean by that is he was every bit as much God as he was man. I get the feeling that maybe Jesus said "not my will but Thine" as an example to the rest of us.

But Jesus never said he was a Godman. If he was God on earth then why wasn't everyone smote who layed eyes on him? You may get the feeling that Jesus said something but what the authors said that he said was, "not my will but yours be done" hence he is below God and not equal to God (equal being a separate God or the same God in man manifestation).

[wayne230]

But Jesus never said he was a Godman. If he was God on earth then why wasn't everyone smote who layed eyes on him? You may get the feeling that Jesus said something but what the authors said that he said was, "not my will but yours be done" hence he is below God and not equal to God (equal being a separate God or the same God in man manifestation).
You have to remember that the prophets predicted that all that would happen. I think we need to look at Phillipians 2 in order to understand the reason why this happened.

5Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus:
6Who, being in very nature[a] God,
did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,
7but made himself nothing,
taking the very nature[b] of a servant,
being made in human likeness.
8And being found in appearance as a man,
he humbled himself
and became obedient to death—
even death on a cross!
9Therefore God exalted him to the highest place
and gave him the name that is above every name,
10that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.


I hope that helps a bit.

[HisServant]

Luke 12:10
"Everyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but the one who blasphemes against the holy Spirit will not be forgiven.

Umm that's not necessarily a rejection of Jesus in as much as speaking unkindly about Him.

John 3:16-19

16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. 17 "For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. 18 " He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. NASU

rejecting Jesus as savior is to reject the one God sent.

[Mathius]

No I don't think He feared death. I think the agony He was about to endure He knew would be unreal. Unless you are sadistic most humans would ask is there any other way? Remember He is human. Pain hurts. He did what He did out of Love for us and to show us how to be obedient in the face of adversity. IMO

I whole heartily agree with you that he was a man. Where I draw the line is that he is not God. What I believe is:

For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate;
he suffered death and was buried.
On the third day he rose again
in accordance with the Scriptures;
he ascended into heaven
and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead,
and his kingdom will have no end.

[Mathius]

You have to remember that the prophets predicted that all that would happen. I think we need to look at Phillipians 2 in order to understand the reason why this happened.

5Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus:
6Who, being in very nature[a] God,
did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,
7but made himself nothing,
taking the very nature[b] of a servant,
being made in human likeness.
8And being found in appearance as a man,
he humbled himself
and became obedient to death—
even death on a cross!
9Therefore God exalted him to the highest place
and gave him the name that is above every name,
10that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.


I hope that helps a bit.

did not consider equality with God something to be grasped
did not consider equality with God something to be grasped
did not consider equality with God something to be grasped
did not consider equality with God something to be grasped
did not consider equality with God something to be grasped
did not consider equality with God something to be grasped

I hope this helps a bit.

[Mathius]

rejecting Jesus as savior is to reject the one God sent.

Define rejection? Reject the message he preached or reject the fact that he equal to God?

[HisServant]

I whole heartily agree with you that he was a man. Where I draw the line is that he is not God. What I believe is:

For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate;
he suffered death and was buried.
On the third day he rose again
in accordance with the Scriptures;
he ascended into heaven
and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead,
and his kingdom will have no end.

All True. Now as you continue to study God's Word you will see that He was more than a man. John 1:1 and other verses give us a picture of who He really is. The demons knew who He was, very telling.

Instead of trying to disprove something and then reading bias into it. Why not read it and begin to make notes. Just a suggestion.

[HisServant]

Define rejection? Reject the message he preached or reject the fact that he equal to God?

To reject Him as savior is to reject his message. His message was that He is the way the Truth and the Life, no one could come to the Father except through Him.

To reject Him as Son of God, or God the Son, Immanuel God with us, I guess that means you reject HIM. For even the Jews sought to kill Him on many occasions for His apparent claims to be equal to God or the Son of God, which they understood was a title to His diety.

[Mathius]

To reject Him as savior is to reject his message. His message was that He is the way the Truth and the Life, no one could come to the Father except through Him.

I do not reject his message to do onto other as you would want them to do onto you plus the other parables and such that teach us how to get to God. Thus no one can get to God except through the teaching of Christ.

To reject Him as Son of God, or God the Son, Immanuel God with us, I guess that means you reject HIM. For even the Jews sought to kill Him on many occasions for His apparent claims to be equal to God or the Son of God, which they understood was a title to His diety.

I do not reject that he is the son of God, but I do reject the God the Son part. This is because in the 4 Gospels he never once attempted to be equal to God. When I read the verses with the Pharases(sp?) they are going to stone him because he is claiming to be a God but not the God. If I was a demon and was up against the man who sits at the right hand of God I would be scared ****less too.

[HisServant]

I do not reject his message to do onto other as you would want them to do onto you plus the other parables and such that teach us how to get to God. Thus no one can get to God except through the teaching of Christ.

Actually it is not His teachings that get us to God. It is believing in Jesus. That He was sent by God. That He died on a cross for our sins. That He was buried. That God raised Him from the dead. That He sits at the right hand of the father. We follow His teachings because we believe who He is.


I do not reject that he is the son of God, but I do reject the God the Son part. This is because in the 4 Gospels he never once attempted to be equal to God. When I read the verses with the Pharases(sp?) they are going to stone him because he is claiming to be a God but not the God. If I was a demon and was up against the man who sits at the right hand of God I would be scared ****less too.

Son of God is a title. Read the passages again. Read it slowly without bias. It clearly states He tries to make Himself equal with God. It clearly states you being a man make yourself out to be God. Not a god. Big difference.
As far as the demons who did they know that Jesus was going to sit at the right hand of God? He did not die yet. They knew Him because before Abraham was "I AM". The knew Him as the LOGOS before becoming flesh.

[Mathius]

Actually it is not His teachings that get us to God. It is believing in Jesus. That He was sent by God. That He died on a cross for our sins. That He was buried. That God raised Him from the dead. That He sits at the right hand of the father. We follow His teachings because we believe who He is.

That is your interpretation of the word though. Jesus was sent to teach the Jews, using the Word of God and it is through that Word of God that one "returns" to God. Therefor it is through Jesus that one becomes saved.

Son of God is a title. Read the passages again. Read it slowly without bias. It clearly states He tries to make Himself equal with God. It clearly states you being a man make yourself out to be God. Not a god. Big difference.

Ok I misquoted, apologies

John 10:30
The Father and I are one."

is the statement that got him in trouble with the Pharases. And Jesus follows with John 10:32-38 where he tries to explain that he is one with the Father in thoughts, words, and deeds but he is not God.

John 10:32
Jesus answered them, "I have shown you many good works from my Father. For which of these are you trying to stone me?"
[...]
John 10:37-38
[37]If I do not perform my Father's works, do not believe me; [38]but if I perform them, even if you do not believe me, believe the works, so that you may realize (and understand) that the Father is in me and I am in the Father."

As you can see Jesus separates himself from God as being one distinct entity. Jesus was trying to teach us that we need to be in the Father, become one with the Father, and become like the Father. We all have the Father within us, whether you want to call it conscience or the Holy Spirit, but now it is our turn to be in the Father. That is called unconditional love where 2 beings can "become one" and can never be separated no matter what.

As far as the demons who did they know that Jesus was going to sit at the right hand of God? He did not die yet. They knew Him because before Abraham was "I AM". The knew Him as the LOGOS before becoming flesh.

Because God sent Jesus. In order to send someone or something that thing has to already exist. Therefor Jesus was already sitting at the right hand of God, hence John 1:1

[HisServant]

That is your interpretation of the word though. Jesus was sent to teach the Jews, using the Word of God and it is through that Word of God that one "returns" to God. Therefor it is through Jesus that one becomes saved.
Not my interpretation I just quoted scripture. Here it is again.

John 3:16-19
6 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. 17 "For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. 18 " He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
NASU


Ok I misquoted, apologies
none needed we are here to learn from each other.

John 10:30 The Father and I are one."

is the statement that got him in trouble with the Pharases. And Jesus follows with John 10:32-38 where he tries to explain that he is one with the Father in thoughts, words, and deeds but he is not God.

John 10:32
Jesus answered them, "I have shown you many good works from my Father. For which of these are you trying to stone me?"
[...]
John 10:37-38
[37]If I do not perform my Father's works, do not believe me; [38]but if I perform them, even if you do not believe me, believe the works, so that you may realize (and understand) that the Father is in me and I am in the Father."

As you can see Jesus separates himself from God as being one distinct entity. Jesus was trying to teach us that we need to be in the Father, become one with the Father, and become like the Father. We all have the Father within us, whether you want to call it conscience or the Holy Spirit, but now it is our turn to be in the Father. That is called unconditional love where 2 beings can "become one" and can never be separated no matter what.

I don't agree of course. Jesus does not distance Himself from God but merely points out the hypocracies of the pharasees. They want to stone Him and think they have a right to do so. He challenges them and they back down because they are wrong. He uses the Word of God which they are supposed to know. Of course as always we only look at scripture to try and prove a point and disregard the ones that show we are wrong on the point. Such as John 1:1 That clearly shows the Logos is God and then becomes flesh, Jesus.



Because God sent Jesus. In order to send someone or something that thing has to already exist. Therefor Jesus was already sitting at the right hand of God, hence John 1:1

Yes you are getting it. what does John 1:1 say about Jesus, the Logos. that is why He is recognized.

[Mathius]

Not my interpretation I just quoted scripture. Here it is again.

John 3:16-19
6 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. 17 "For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. 18 " He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
NASU


Jesus is the Word, therefor I believe in the Word. By believing in the word I live by the word and by what Jesus said. If I am wrong then correct me but you believe that Jesus (the Son of God) was sent to be killed for us. Therefor both of us believe in Jesus but for different reasons. Are both of us going to be saved? We are both following scripture or atleast an interpretation of that scripture.

I don't agree of course. Jesus does not distance Himself from God but merely points out the hypocracies of the pharasees. They want to stone Him and think they have a right to do so. He challenges them and they back down because they are wrong. He uses the Word of God which they are supposed to know. Of course as always we only look at scripture to try and prove a point and disregard the ones that show we are wrong on the point. Such as John 1:1 That clearly shows the Logos is God and then becomes flesh, Jesus.

I didn't not mean separate in the form of turning away from God but to explain that Jesus later says that he and God are infact separate beings.


Yes you are getting it. what does John 1:1 say about Jesus, the Logos. that is why He is recognized.

Umm no, John 1:1 was just an example of Jesus being around before he was sent to Earth. Also John 1:1 is a quote from the vedas describing Ohm, which pre-dates the NT by a couple thousand years. I was going to say how I interpret John 1:1-4 but I am too tired right now.

[Jewell]

Should You Believe in the Trinity?

NO !!!!!

[Harmonious]

Should You Believe in the Trinity?

NO !!!!!

I'm with you.

[Andrew_980]

I do not. There is god the creator and none other.

[Angryamerican]

I'm with you.

Me too.

[HisServant]

I do not. There is god the creator and none other.

Absolutely agree. There is God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit. The three in One and there is no other.

[DispensationalJim]

Whew, I took a "day off" from this thread and fell 3 pages behind.

For Andrew, several have already quoted the verses that show that JESUS IS THE CREATOR. Therefore, Jesus IS GOD, thank you very much. Just in case you missed them, here are some of them again:

• Is. 42:5 Thus saith God the LORD, he that created the heavens, and stretched them out; he that spread forth the earth, and that which cometh out of it; he that giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein:
• John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. 3 ALL THINGS WERE MADE BY HIM, AND WITHOUT HIM WAS NOT ANYTHING MADE THAT WAS MADE.
• Col. 1:16 For BY HIM WERE ALL THINGS CREATED, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: ALL THINGS WERE CREADED BY HIM, AND FOR HIM:
• Rev. 4:11 Thou art worthy, O LORD, to receive glory and honour and power: for THOU HAST CREATED ALL THINGS, AND FOR THY PLEASURE THEY ARE AND WERE CREATED.

===========================

There is only one LORD GOD, and it is JESUS, our KING:
• Is. 43:3 For I am the LORD thy God, the Holy One of Israel, thy Saviour:
• Is. 45:6 That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else.
• Matt. 22:44 The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool?
• Rev. 17:14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.
• Rev. 19:16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.
• 1Tim. 6:15 Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;
• 1Tim. 1:17 Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen.
• Eph. 4:5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
• Heb. 1:8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

====================

Jesus is THE GREAT I AM!:
• Ex. 3:14 And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.
• John 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I AM.
• John 6:51 I AM the living bread which came down from heaven...
• John 9:5 As long as I am in the world, I AM the light of the world.
• John 9:9 Some said, This is he: others said, He is like him: but he said, I AM he.
• John 10:9 I AM the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.
• John 10:36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I AM the Son of God?
• John 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I AM the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
• John 13:13 Ye call me Master and LORD: and ye say well; for so I AM.
• John 13:19 Now I tell you before it come, that, when it is come to pass, ye may believe that I AM he.
• John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I AM the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
• John 15:1 I AM the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.
• John 18:6 As soon then as he had said unto them, I AM he, they went backward, and fell to the ground.

=====================
Another example:

• Matt. 21:12 And Jesus went into the **TEMPLE OF GOD**, and cast out all them that sold and bought in the temple, and overthrew the tables of the moneychangers, and the seats of them that sold doves, 13 And said unto them, It is written, **MY HOUSE** shall be called the house of prayer; but ye have made it a den of thieves.

Since Jesus was in the TEMPLE OF GOD, and He called it "My House", isn't that equating Himself with God?

DispensationalJim

[Angryamerican]

Whew, I took a "day off" from this thread and fell 3 pages behind.

For Andrew, several have already quoted the verses that show that JESUS IS THE CREATOR. Therefore, Jesus IS GOD, thank you very much. Just in case you missed them, here are some of them again:

• Is. 42:5 Thus saith God the LORD, he that created the heavens, and stretched them out; he that spread forth the earth, and that which cometh out of it; he that giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein:
• John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. 3 ALL THINGS WERE MADE BY HIM, AND WITHOUT HIM WAS NOT ANYTHING MADE THAT WAS MADE.
• Col. 1:16 For BY HIM WERE ALL THINGS CREATED, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: ALL THINGS WERE CREADED BY HIM, AND FOR HIM:
• Rev. 4:11 Thou art worthy, O LORD, to receive glory and honour and power: for THOU HAST CREATED ALL THINGS, AND FOR THY PLEASURE THEY ARE AND WERE CREATED.

===========================

There is only one LORD GOD, and it is JESUS, our KING:
• Is. 43:3 For I am the LORD thy God, the Holy One of Israel, thy Saviour:
• Is. 45:6 That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else.
• Matt. 22:44 The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool?
• Rev. 17:14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.
• Rev. 19:16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.
• 1Tim. 6:15 Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;
• 1Tim. 1:17 Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen.
• Eph. 4:5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
• Heb. 1:8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

====================

Jesus is THE GREAT I AM!:
• Ex. 3:14 And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.
• John 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I AM.
• John 6:51 I AM the living bread which came down from heaven...
• John 9:5 As long as I am in the world, I AM the light of the world.
• John 9:9 Some said, This is he: others said, He is like him: but he said, I AM he.
• John 10:9 I AM the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.
• John 10:36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I AM the Son of God?
• John 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I AM the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
• John 13:13 Ye call me Master and LORD: and ye say well; for so I AM.
• John 13:19 Now I tell you before it come, that, when it is come to pass, ye may believe that I AM he.
• John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I AM the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
• John 15:1 I AM the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.
• John 18:6 As soon then as he had said unto them, I AM he, they went backward, and fell to the ground.

=====================
Another example:

• Matt. 21:12 And Jesus went into the **TEMPLE OF GOD**, and cast out all them that sold and bought in the temple, and overthrew the tables of the moneychangers, and the seats of them that sold doves, 13 And said unto them, It is written, **MY HOUSE** shall be called the house of prayer; but ye have made it a den of thieves.

Since Jesus was in the TEMPLE OF GOD, and He called it "My House", isn't that equating Himself with God?

DispensationalJim

Harmonious please straighten him out on who is I WILL BE OR I HAVE BEEN NOT I AM is ?

[Angryamerican]

Whew, I took a "day off" from this thread and fell 3 pages behind.

For Andrew, several have already quoted the verses that show that JESUS IS THE CREATOR. Therefore, Jesus IS GOD, thank you very much. Just in case you missed them, here are some of them again:

• Is. 42:5 Thus saith God the LORD, he that created the heavens, and stretched them out; he that spread forth the earth, and that which cometh out of it; he that giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein:
• John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. 3 ALL THINGS WERE MADE BY HIM, AND WITHOUT HIM WAS NOT ANYTHING MADE THAT WAS MADE.
• Col. 1:16 For BY HIM WERE ALL THINGS CREATED, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: ALL THINGS WERE CREADED BY HIM, AND FOR HIM:
• Rev. 4:11 Thou art worthy, O LORD, to receive glory and honour and power: for THOU HAST CREATED ALL THINGS, AND FOR THY PLEASURE THEY ARE AND WERE CREATED.

===========================

There is only one LORD GOD, and it is JESUS, our KING:
• Is. 43:3 For I am the LORD thy God, the Holy One of Israel, thy Saviour:
• Is. 45:6 That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else.
• Matt. 22:44 The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool?
• Rev. 17:14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.
• Rev. 19:16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.
• 1Tim. 6:15 Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;
• 1Tim. 1:17 Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen.
• Eph. 4:5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
• Heb. 1:8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

====================

Jesus is THE GREAT I AM!:
• Ex. 3:14 And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.
• John 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I AM.
• John 6:51 I AM the living bread which came down from heaven...
• John 9:5 As long as I am in the world, I AM the light of the world.
• John 9:9 Some said, This is he: others said, He is like him: but he said, I AM he.
• John 10:9 I AM the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.
• John 10:36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I AM the Son of God?
• John 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I AM the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
• John 13:13 Ye call me Master and LORD: and ye say well; for so I AM.
• John 13:19 Now I tell you before it come, that, when it is come to pass, ye may believe that I AM he.
• John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I AM the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
• John 15:1 I AM the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.
• John 18:6 As soon then as he had said unto them, I AM he, they went backward, and fell to the ground.

=====================
Another example:

• Matt. 21:12 And Jesus went into the **TEMPLE OF GOD**, and cast out all them that sold and bought in the temple, and overthrew the tables of the moneychangers, and the seats of them that sold doves, 13 And said unto them, It is written, **MY HOUSE** shall be called the house of prayer; but ye have made it a den of thieves.

Since Jesus was in the TEMPLE OF GOD, and He called it "My House", isn't that equating Himself with God?

DispensationalJim

Does not the house of God belong to the son as well?

[Andrew_980]

Absolutely agree. There is God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit. The three in One and there is no other.
that is polytheism, there is but ONE god and none other. No earthly incarnation, no split demigod spirit, nothing.

[DRS]

===========================

There is only one LORD GOD, and it is JESUS, our KING:
• Is. 43:3 For I am the LORD thy God, the Holy One of Israel, thy Saviour:
• Is. 45:6 That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else.
• Matt. 22:44 The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool?
• Rev. 17:14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.
• Rev. 19:16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.
• 1Tim. 6:15 Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;
• 1Tim. 1:17 Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen.
• Eph. 4:5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
• Heb. 1:8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

====================



What about what Paul said there is one God the Father, to us and one lord of us Jesus?

[DRS]

=====================
Another example:

• Matt. 21:12 And Jesus went into the **TEMPLE OF GOD**, and cast out all them that sold and bought in the temple, and overthrew the tables of the moneychangers, and the seats of them that sold doves, 13 And said unto them, It is written, **MY HOUSE** shall be called the house of prayer; but ye have made it a den of thieves.

Since Jesus was in the TEMPLE OF GOD, and He called it "My House", isn't that equating Himself with God?

DispensationalJim

As high priest, that was his house.

[Warrior4God]

Does not the house of God belong to the son as well?

What is being left out is Jesus was quoting scripture where Gods house was being refered to Jesus didnt say it was his house Matt.21;22
he was quoting saying It is written ,,not I wrote

[HisServant]

What is being left out is Jesus was quoting scripture where Gods house was being refered to Jesus didnt say it was his house Matt.21;22
he was quoting saying It is written ,,not I wrote

According to John 1 He is the Logos. The Word of God. Yeah He wrote.

[DRS]

According to John 1 He is the Logos. The Word of God. Yeah He wrote.

Then why would Jesus say it is written and not I said, all those times in the bible?

[Warrior4God]

According to John 1 He is the Logos. The Word of God. Yeah He wrote.

Did Jesus raise himself from the dead? was God dead 3 days?
was Jesus God or was he a man?
can God be tempted?
can grow in wisdom?
can God get on his knees and pray or is he the God the Son prayed to?
can God be subject to any one or anything.

Because it is affirmed of Christ, that “when all things shall be subdued under him then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all,” 1 Cor. 15:28

[HisServant]

Did Jesus raise himself from the dead? was God dead 3 days?
was Jesus God or was he a man?
can God be tempted?
can grow in wisdom?
can God get on his knees and pray or is he the God the Son prayed to?
can God be subject to any one or anything.

Because it is affirmed of Christ, that “when all things shall be subdued under him then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all,” 1 Cor. 15:28

inquiring minds want to know. It's all in the Bible.
The Logos became flesh and dwelt among us. He gave His life for us no one took it. He was raised from the dead via the Holy Spirit. He now sits at the right Hand of the Father. Back on the Throne where He came from.
Learn to seperate Jesus the man from the Logos. Don't confuse the two. Colossians very good chapter to read. Another hint stop thinking that one means the same person. That is not what is meant. If you are not going to agree that is OK I don't see anywhere that scripture says it is necessary for salvation to believe in the Trinity. But at least properly understand what is being said or stated. The Father, Son and Spirit are one and yet they are distinct. When the Father talks to the Son, He is not talking to Himself. But they are still one.

[HisServant]

Then why would Jesus say it is written and not I said, all those times in the bible?

can't answer I'm not in charge of telling Him what to do and how to say things. But either way its a mute point they would not have listened. Do you see anything being different had He said I wrote it? Do you think they would have listened better? nope. Probably thought He was looney or stoned Him in ignorance because of their lack of understanding of who He Is and was just like now.

[DRS]

can't answer I'm not in charge of telling Him what to do and how to say things. But either way its a mute point they would not have listened. Do you see anything being different had He said I wrote it? Do you think they would have listened better? nope. Probably thought He was looney or stoned Him in ignorance because of their lack of understanding of who He Is and was just like now.

If he had said he was the Almighty they would have laughed or asked how is it we can see since no man may see God's face and live.

[HisServant]

If he had said he was the Almighty they would have laughed or asked how is it we can see since no man may see God's face and live.

Does that mean it was not so? No it does not.

200 year ago if you had said man would fly to the moon what do you think the reaction would have been? If you had said we would be able to communicate instantaneously across the seas what would the reaction have been? If you had said an actor could be president and be one of the greatest of presidents what would their reaction have been? Reaction has no bearance on whether or not something is True.

[Jewell]

I do not. There is god the creator and none other.

You have that right !

[Warrior4God]

inquiring minds want to know. It's all in the Bible.
The Logos became flesh and dwelt among us. He gave His life for us no one took it. He was raised from the dead via the Holy Spirit. He now sits at the right Hand of the Father. Back on the Throne where He came from.
Learn to seperate Jesus the man from the Logos. Don't confuse the two. Colossians very good chapter to read. Another hint stop thinking that one means the same person. That is not what is meant. If you are not going to agree that is OK I don't see anywhere that scripture says it is necessary for salvation to believe in the Trinity. But at least properly understand what is being said or stated. The Father, Son and Spirit are one and yet they are distinct. When the Father talks to the Son, He is not talking to Himself. But they are still one.

You still did answer my questions in the other post
now when you say Jesus was raised via the Holy Spirit do you mean God?
or do you mean the holy spirit the 3rd part of the trinity thing?

[DispensationalJim]

Hello, Jewell!

Haven't heard from you in quite a spell on this forum. Hope everything is well with you.

Reconrick was active on this thread for awhile, but haven't heard from him lately, either. I think you two are from the same "school of thought," aren't you?

Anyway, I hope to hear more from you on here, Jewell.

DispensationalJim

[DRS]

Does that mean it was not so? No it does not.

200 year ago if you had said man would fly to the moon what do you think the reaction would have been? If you had said we would be able to communicate instantaneously across the seas what would the reaction have been? If you had said an actor could be president and be one of the greatest of presidents what would their reaction have been? Reaction has no bearance on whether or not something is True.

Was there any inpired writings that said it is impossible to do any of the above?

There is scripture that says it is impossible to see God's face and live and no man has seen God.

[HisServant]

Was there any inpired writings that said it is impossible to do any of the above?

There is scripture that says it is impossible to see God's face and live and no man has seen God.

You still don't get it. No man Has seen God the Father in all His Glory except the Son. The Logos became man and we beheld Him. Thus as a human we could see Him. But God the Father no, no man has seen Him.

Twisting scripture does not make them right. Misunderstanding them does not make them wrong.

[HisServant]

You still did answer my questions in the other post
now when you say Jesus was raised via the Holy Spirit do you mean God?
or do you mean the holy spirit the 3rd part of the trinity thing?

What other post? This is the only question you asked me.

Do you believe the Holy Spirit lives in us?

[Warrior4God]

What other post? This is the only question you asked me.

Do you believe the Holy Spirit lives in us?

My question was, did the holy spirit or did God raise Jesus from the dead or did he raise himself?
as for the other questions I believe I have asked you them before but will again
te:
Originally Posted by Warrior4God
Did Jesus raise himself from the dead? was God dead 3 days?
was Jesus God or was he a man?
can God be tempted?
can God grow in wisdom?
can God get on his knees and pray or is he the God the Son prayed to?
can God be subject to any one or anything.

Because it is affirmed of Christ, that “when all things shall be subdued under him then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all,” 1 Cor. 15:28
could you explain this for me according to your doctrine how Jesus will be subject to God if they are 3 persons and equal

[DRS]

You still don't get it. No man Has seen God the Father in all His Glory except the Son. The Logos became man and we beheld Him. Thus as a human we could see Him. But God the Father no, no man has seen Him.

Twisting scripture does not make them right. Misunderstanding them does not make them wrong.

No twisting the scriptures are plain, no man mey see God's face and live.

(Exodus 33:20) And he added: “You are not able to see my face, because no man may see me and yet live.”



(John 6:46) Not that any man has seen the Father, except he who is from God; this one has seen the Father.



(1 John 4:12) At no time has anyone beheld God. If we continue loving one another, God remains in us and his love is made perfect in us.

(John 1:18) No man has seen God at any time; the only-begotten god who is in the bosom [position] with the Father is the one that has explained him