Should You Believe In The Trinity?

[Fire Watch]

In other words, no "sinful" person can see God and live.

No, in other words, Joseph Smith added something that wasnt in scripture TO scripture to get it to line up with what he wanted others to believe.

[Poisonshady313]

I understand that. Still, I'm asking you a simple question, according to your beliefs, do you know enough about Christianity to say "it's the wrong road to follow"?

After reading Matthew 1:1, I knew enough about Christianity to say "It's the wrong road to follow".

[Poisonshady313]

I disagree, as I believe God is anthropomorphic - we being created in His image.

Being created in his "image" (which is a word that doesn't quite capture the meaning of the Hebrew word it's used for) means that we can reason and discern, that we have free will. It is according to this "likeness" of God in which we are created.

[Fire Watch]

After reading Matthew 1:1, I knew enough about Christianity to say "It's the wrong road to follow".
Great, that's fine..so why the outrage from CMike11 and Koushi Shinigami when Kittycat made the statement in reverse? Why is it ok for a Jew to state that about Christianity, but not for Christians to make the same belief statement regarding Judaism?

In fact, CMike seemed to almost want to liken it to anti-Semitism.

That's a point, however, I so see the same sentiment pretty often around here.

I also wonder how many posters here believe the same thing but are reluctant to say it here.

[DRS]

Ex. 33: 11

11 And the Lord spake unto Moses face to face, as a man speaketh unto his friend. And he turned again into the camp: but his servant Joshua, the son of Nun, a young man, departed not out of the tabernacle.

God spoke to Moses directly but it went through him to the people, this shown by the fact that Israel is said to have spoken with God face to face previously

Deuteronomy 5:4*Face to face Jehovah spoke with YOU in the mountain out of the middle of the fire.

[DRS]

I disagree, as I believe God is anthropomorphic - we being created in His image.

For me, the Joseph Smith translation of these verses clears things up a bit:

20 And he said unto Moses, Thou canst not see my face at this time, lest mine anger be kindled against thee also, and I destroy thee, and thy people; for there shall no man among them see me at this time, and live, for they are exceeding sinful. And no sinful man hath at any time, neither shall there be any sinful man at any time, that shall see my face and live.

21 And the Lord said, Behold, there is a place by me, and thou shalt stand upon a rock:

22 And it shall come to pass, while my glory passeth by, that I will put thee in a clift of the rock, and will cover thee with my hand while I pass by:

23 And I will take away mine hand, and thou shalt see my back parts: but my face shall not be seen as at other times; for I am angry with my people Israel.


In other words, no "sinful" person can see God and live.

Does not John write no man has seen God at anytime?

[Reeder]

Here's a good starting place..

Psalm 139

7 Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence?


8 If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.

9 If I take the wings of the morning, and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea;

10 Even there shall thy hand lead me, and thy right hand shall hold me.




It's a state of being, not a "purpose". The creator isnt bound by the creation. God was not omnipresent prior to creation. Omnipresence, then, is not an essential attribute of God's nature; spacelessness is essential to God's nature. God existing alone without creation is spaceless. God became omnipresent concurrent with creation in virtue of the creation of space. Omnipresence emerged as a contingent relation between God and the spatial universe He created.

The Bible does nothing more than describe God's knowledge of the present and his power to be at, or communicate with, any part of the universe at his discretion, from which men are intended to derive some understanding of his "omnipresence." The term "omnipresent" is nothing more than a word that describes the effect of these attributes; it is not the attribute itself.

Actually, God's omnipresence follows logically from his omniscience and his omnipotence alone. These are the only attributes cited in passages that describe God's omnipresence (see, e.g., Psalm 139:7—10). It is entirely unnecessary to argue that God must be incorporeal or claim that he is "not a thing, like water or air, that can take up space." Nor is it necessary to claim that God is "not limited by a spatiotemporal body" (p. 58). This can readily be demonstrated by noting that the New Testament implies Christ's omnipresence (see Matthew 28:19—20; Acts 1:8) despite the fact that he has a "human nature" and a corporeal, spatiotemporal body (see Luke 24:36—38). In other words, Christ was, and thanks to the resurrection, now is and will forever be, "a thing, like water or air, that can take up space," yet he is also "omnipresent."


The God of the Bible has a distinctly identifiable "presence," which "comes to" and "departs from" specific spatiotemporal locations. He is also described as imminent, "not far from any of us" (Acts 17:27). The entire concept of God's imminence contradicts the idea that he is actually present at every location in the universe simultaneously. To say that God is close by requires the assumption that he is not actually present.

Some classical theologians have correctly noted that it is antithetical to the notion of personality to claim that God is present everywhere simultaneously. Personality, they note, is necessarily centered at some location. (See John Miley, Systematic Theology (1892; reprint, Peabody, Mass.: Hendrickson, 1989), 1:218.) Thus to say that God is present everywhere simultaneously is to rob him of his personality and turn him into a pantheistic deity.


http://farms.byu.edu/publications/review/?vol=12&num=1&id=339#Anchor-52026

[Reeder]

No, in other words, Joseph Smith added something that wasnt in scripture TO scripture to get it to line up with what he wanted others to believe.


If thats what you want to believe......

[Constantine the Great]

What about Hebrews 8:13?



What about it? My question was, should we as Christians "poo-poo" those who adhere to what we ourselves still refer to God's Laws? We accept what the Old Testament says, that Israel was God's chosen. Why then do we place ourselves in judgment on those who we profess follow the same God as we do, the God of Abraham? God has embraced us through our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and we as Christians have embraced Him, does this mean He has relinquished His love for Israel? Is Christ Judge or are Christians judges as to whom salvation belongs to when it comes to the entire nation of Israel? Sure we can judge individuals insofar as their actions and whether they have the love of God and love for God in them based upon their fruits and even then those people we are to forgive but stay clear of lest we fall into false teachings and sin. Please show me a verse where God says we as Christians can judge the entire nation of Israel based strictly upon their adherence to the law.
Christ is the path to salvation; it is my confession of faith. Then again, we aren't talking about Christians versus muslim adherence to the teachings of the Koran, or the Hindu teachings of the Baghavad Gita, faith systems which we profess absolute zero commonality with. We are speaking of adherence to the Laws of a God we declare a common faith in. I wonder why it is we can't be content to follow Christ and serve Him, without trying to place ourselves above the Master and judge those who do not follow the Master as we do? Is there some overriding desire to proclaim us as being more righteous over the Jews by our profession and confession in faith in Christ? I wonder, does the Great Commission have to do with spreading Christ's message of love and salvation for mankind, or does it have to do with asserting our spiritual superiority over those who have not yet found Christ and making that (spiritual superiority) the foundation of our ministry?

[Poisonshady313]

Great, that's fine..so why the outrage from CMike11 and Koushi Shinigami when Kittycat made the statement in reverse? Why is it ok for a Jew to state that about Christianity, but not for Christians to make the same belief statement regarding Judaism?

In fact, CMike seemed to almost want to liken it to anti-Semitism.

Because it all goes back to the knowledge of the Tanach, which Jews are much more likely to have than Christians.

This is a record of the ancestors of Jesus the Messiah, a descendant of David[a] and of Abraham: (NLT)

Most other versions use the word "Christ" instead of Messiah, which serves the same purpose.

Knowing that the messiah isn't here and that the messiah hasn't come yet automatically makes dubious the claim that a particular fellow written about in the book of matthew is the messiah.

Only somebody who doesn't understand the prophets could suggest that the messiah has come already.

Someone whose entire religion (B) is based on the misunderstanding of another (A) cannot legitimately claim to "know enough about" that religion (A).

Meanwhile... Jews who know their own religion are perfectly capable of identifying something that is not congruent with Judaism.

[Reeder]

Being created in his "image" (which is a word that doesn't quite capture the meaning of the Hebrew word it's used for) means that we can reason and discern, that we have free will. It is according to this "likeness" of God in which we are created.

I believe you are right.......and I believe I am right as well. :) I have always believed that we are literally the sons and daughters of a loving Heavenly Father (God). That His purpose was to send us here to aquire mortal bodies, to experience trials and afflications, and to look to Him in faith. This life is a test for us. We gain physical bodies created after His likeness and image, and we also have instilled within each of us a divine potential to become "like Him." This life is a time to progress.....to repent of our shortcomings, sins, and weaknesses, and to strive to become like God.

[Reeder]

Does not John write no man has seen God at anytime?

And the Doctrine & Covanents clearly defines what this means:

John 1: 18

18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

Doctrine & Covanents 67: 11

11 For no man has seen God at any time in the flesh, except quickened by the Spirit of God.

[DRS]

Modern Judaism is not the same as biblical Judaism when one states that Jesus is not the messiah and is not sent by God they are rejecting God.

As shown by the example of Moses when the people complained about him and the parable of the vineyard and the wicked slaves that Jesus gave.

If God wanted Judaism to have continued he would not have sent Jesus to the Jews, He would not have had the temple destroyed to be replaced by the heavenly arrangement

And as Paul said he who is a Jew is one who is circumcised on the inside, Abraham is the father of all having faith.

The plan for the Christian congregation predates the founding of the nation of Israel just as the the plan for messiah to come through the line of Judah predated David replacing Saul as king

[Fire Watch]

The Bible does nothing more than describe God's knowledge of the present and his power to be at, or communicate with, any part of the universe at his discretion, from which men are intended to derive some understanding of his "omnipresence." The term "omnipresent" is nothing more than a word that describes the effect of these attributes; it is not the attribute itself.

Actually, God's omnipresence follows logically from his omniscience and his omnipotence alone. These are the only attributes cited in passages that describe God's omnipresence (see, e.g., Psalm 139:7—10). It is entirely unnecessary to argue that God must be incorporeal or claim that he is "not a thing, like water or air, that can take up space." Nor is it necessary to claim that God is "not limited by a spatiotemporal body" (p. 58). This can readily be demonstrated by noting that the New Testament implies Christ's omnipresence (see Matthew 28:19—20; Acts 1:8) despite the fact that he has a "human nature" and a corporeal, spatiotemporal body (see Luke 24:36—38). In other words, Christ was, and thanks to the resurrection, now is and will forever be, "a thing, like water or air, that can take up space," yet he is also "omnipresent."


The God of the Bible has a distinctly identifiable "presence," which "comes to" and "departs from" specific spatiotemporal locations. He is also described as imminent, "not far from any of us" (Acts 17:27). The entire concept of God's imminence contradicts the idea that he is actually present at every location in the universe simultaneously. To say that God is close by requires the assumption that he is not actually present.

Some classical theologians have correctly noted that it is antithetical to the notion of personality to claim that God is present everywhere simultaneously. Personality, they note, is necessarily centered at some location. (See John Miley, Systematic Theology (1892; reprint, Peabody, Mass.: Hendrickson, 1989), 1:218.) Thus to say that God is present everywhere simultaneously is to rob him of his personality and turn him into a pantheistic deity.


http://farms.byu.edu/publications/review/?vol=12&num=1&id=339#Anchor-52026

That's a ridiculous argument..but I guess it works when you're "preaching to the choir". God isnt extended through space so that He fills it like wter fills a glass. God isnt a physical substance that can fill anything. God's omnipresence in the universe is more like the way in which our minds are "filled" with thoughts. Our thoughts are not spatially extended throughout our minds, and neither is God spatially extended throughout the universe. Theres nothing intrinsic to the act of creation that would require God to be spatialized. Creation wasnt a spatial act..therefore we have no compelling reason to believe God surrendered His divine spacelessness and began to exist spatially subsequent to the act of creation. God remained spaceless even subsequent to creation. If God remained spaceless His omnipresence must mean He's simply cognizant of and causally active at every point of space.

[Fire Watch]

Because it all goes back to the knowledge of the Tanach, which Jews are much more likely to have than Christians.

This is a record of the ancestors of Jesus the Messiah, a descendant of David[a] and of Abraham: (NLT)

Most other versions use the word "Christ" instead of Messiah, which serves the same purpose.

Knowing that the messiah isn't here and that the messiah hasn't come yet automatically makes dubious the claim that a particular fellow written about in the book of matthew is the messiah.

Only somebody who doesn't understand the prophets could suggest that the messiah has come already.

Someone whose entire religion (B) is based on the misunderstanding of another (A) cannot legitimately claim to "know enough about" that religion (A).

Meanwhile... Jews who know their own religion are perfectly capable of identifying something that is not congruent with Judaism.
Ahh..so it's simply a double standard resulting from "I'm a Jew so I say so".. gotcha..faux outrage from CMike rendered meaningless...thank you.

[Reeder]

That's a ridiculous argument..but I guess it works when you're "preaching to the choir". God isnt extended through space so that He fills it like wter fills a glass. God isnt a physical substance that can fill anything. God's omnipresence in the universe is more like the way in which our minds are "filled" with thoughts. Our thoughts are not spatially extended throughout our minds, and neither is God spatially extended throughout the universe. Theres nothing intrinsic to the act of creation that would require God to be spatialized. Creation wasnt a spatial act..therefore we have no compelling reason to believe God surrendered His divine spacelessness and began to exist spatially subsequent to the act of creation. God remained spaceless even subsequent to creation. If God remained spaceless His omnipresence must mean He's simply cognizant of and causally active at every point of space.

Thats assuming God was ever "spaceless" to begin with. I don't believe He ever was. God isn't "required" to be spacialized. That is how He is. God possesses a body of flesh and bone. This does not limit His capability to see, know, and discern all things.

[DRS]

And the Doctrine & Covanents clearly defines what this means:

John 1: 18

18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

Doctrine & Covanents 67: 11

11 For no man has seen God at any time in the flesh, except quickened by the Spirit of God.


see this is one of those contradictions I was talking about in another thread, but Christians were warned ahead of time

. 8*However, even if we or an angel out of heaven were to declare to YOU as good news something beyond what we declared to YOU as good news, let him be accursed

[Poisonshady313]

Modern Judaism is not the same as biblical Judaism when one states that Jesus is not the messiah and is not sent by God they are rejecting God. You are wrong.

If God wanted Judaism to have continued he would not have sent Jesus to the Jews, He would not have had the temple destroyed to be replaced by the heavenly arrangement Again, you are wrong. There are so many prophecies about the redemption of Israel, the restoration of the Temple, the rebuilding of Jerusalem, and the ingathering of the exiles, that your comment comes across as nonsense.

[Reeder]

see this is one of those contradictions I was talking about in another thread, but Christians were warned ahead of time

. 8*However, even if we or an angel out of heaven were to declare to YOU as good news something beyond what we declared to YOU as good news, let him be accursed

How is that a contradiction? It expounds and clarifies, it doesn't contradict. If it contradicted it would say "everyone sees God all the time in the flesh."

And what is the point of that verse you quoted? What does that have to do with anything?

[Fire Watch]

Thats assuming God was ever "spaceless" to begin with. I don't believe He ever was. God isn't "required" to be spacialized. That is how He is. God possesses a body of flesh and bone. This does not limit His capability to see, know, and discern all things.

That then is turning God into a spatial being with limits..in actuality making God finite. Since all finite things need a cause we would have to ask Who caused God? God is not "caused". God has no "God" or creator. This belief takes the Monotheism taught in scripture and trashes it.

[DRS]

You are wrong.

Again, you are wrong. There are so many prophecies about the redemption of Israel, the restoration of the Temple, the rebuilding of Jerusalem, and the ingathering of the exiles, that your comment comes across as nonsense.

Actually there is nothing in there about the temple tht is just the understanding that came after the temple was destroyed, it was tabernacle and the fulfillment of that prophecy is seen in the book of Revelation.

And yes how one treats the one sent by God goes to how they treat God Himself, when the Jews complained against Moses, God said it was against Him they were complaining, not Moses

[Poisonshady313]

Ahh..so it's simply a double standard resulting from "I'm a Jew so I say so".. gotcha..faux outrage from CMike rendered meaningless...thank you.

It's not a double standard... because it's not the same thing... because Judaism doesn't depend on Christian prophets to exist. Christianity does depend on Jewish prophets (albeit, misunderstandings of them) in order to exist.

You can't claim to know about one faith when the first thing about your faith displays ignorance of it.

Mike's outrage is neither faux nor meaningless.

Telling someone you know about their religion, when the statements you make clearly indicate otherwise, is a cause for outrage (or at least, a cause for someone to declare "shenanigans").

[DRS]

How is that a contradiction? It expounds and clarifies, it doesn't contradict. If it contradicted it would say "everyone sees God all the time in the flesh."

And what is the point of that verse you quoted? What does that have to do with anything?

No the bible is clear no man can see God and live and no man has seen God at anytime.

It does not say except of course unless this happen so you got the d&c contradicting what John wrote.

[Reeder]

That then is turning God into a spatial being with limits..in actuality making God finite. Since all finite things need a cause we would have to ask Who caused God? God is not "caused". God has no "God" or creator. This belief takes the Monotheism taught in scripture and trashes it.

Its not limiting God except in your own mind. God is omnipotent. An omnipotent Being, whether or not He possesses a tangible body of flesh and bone, is not limited. Actually, I take that back. I don't believe that God can lie, so I guess I believe God does have limits. Sue me.

[Poisonshady313]

Actually there is nothing in there about the temple tht is just the understanding that came after the temple was destroyed, it was tabernacle and the fulfillment of that prophecy is seen in the book of Revelation. You're joking, right? You are aware that Solmon's building of the Temple is recorded, right? And that the destruction of it is recorded in Lamentations, right? And that Cyrus gave the people permission to build the second temple, right?

And yes how one treats the one sent by God goes to how they treat God Himself, when the Jews complained against Moses, God said it was against Him they were complaining, not Moses
Thing is... Moses was sent by God. Jesus was not.

[Fire Watch]

It's not a double standard... because it's not the same thing... because Judaism doesn't depend on Christian prophets to exist. Christianity does depend on Jewish prophets (albeit, misunderstandings of them) in order to exist.

You can't claim to know about one faith when the first thing about your faith displays ignorance of it.

Mike's outrage is neither faux nor meaningless.

Telling someone you know about their religion, when the statements you make clearly indicate otherwise, is a cause for outrage (or at least, a cause for someone to declare "shenanigans").
Because you understanding of the prophets is different from someone else's doesn't make your understating correct, nor does it give you license to use such an obvious double standard..which despite your claim, is what it is.

I understand that you believe your understanding to be correct..but with ALL matters of faith...especially concerning such things as supernatural prophecies..you just cant prove it.

So, what comes down to is this.."what's good for the goose is good for the gander". If you're willing to make judgemental declarations regarding the faiths of others, you had better be prepared to have the same judgements cast on your beliefs.

[DRS]

It's not a double standard... because it's not the same thing... because Judaism doesn't depend on Christian prophets to exist. Christianity does depend on Jewish prophets (albeit, misunderstandings of them) in order to exist.

You can't claim to know about one faith when the first thing about your faith displays ignorance of it.

Mike's outrage is neither faux nor meaningless.

Telling someone you know about their religion, when the statements you make clearly indicate otherwise, is a cause for outrage (or at least, a cause for someone to declare "shenanigans").

They are not your prophets, they are God's prophet and God gives insight to whom He chooses to give it too, the Jews do not sustain the bible God does

When you realilze that in the end it is not about the Jews but rather it is about God and He has just given man a chance to benefit from serving Him you may start to understand.

[DRS]

You're joking, right? You are aware that Solmon's building of the Temple is recorded, right? And that the destruction of it is recorded in Lamentations, right? And that Cyrus gave the people permission to build the second temple, right?


Thing is... Moses was sent by God. Jesus was not.

Prove he was not sent by God

[Fire Watch]

Actually, I take that back. I don't believe that God can lie, so I guess I believe God does have limits. Sue me.
I wont sue you, but I'll sure call you out on it when it contradicts scripture. Sorry.

You say God cant lie..yet you must believe Him to be lying when He said repeatedly that He is the only God there is/was/shall be. If you believe he "progressed" into Godhood, or that He had a God that He worshipped..then God must be a liar.

[CMike11]

I understand that. Still, I'm asking you a simple question, according to your beliefs, do you know enough about Christianity to say "it's the wrong road to follow"?


I am sorry, I misunderstood. I thought you were accusing me of making such a statement.

I had a tough day today, my whole paycheck was almost mistakenly wiped out.

As far as your question to me, I am not going to judge another religion. According to Judaism, as long as non jews keep the seven laws given to Noach by G-D they have a place in the world to come.

Just about all my posts here in the religion forum have centered, on protecting Judaism, and the Torah (OT) from being distorted. Other than that I have nothing negative to say about any religion.

In fact, in the General Interests forum, believe it or not, I protected Islam from being portrayed as a violent religion. I thought it was unfair to beat up on the religion, especially since there was no one really there to defend it.

I do believe if people kept their religion, the world would be a better place.

I think most religions center on people being a better human being.

What do you think about Judaism FW?

[Constantine the Great]

Thing is... Moses was sent by God. Jesus was not.

You're right; Jesus was not sent by God. Jesus is God.

[Poisonshady313]

I understand that you believe your understanding to be correct..but with ALL matters of faith...especially concerning such things as supernatural prophecies..you just cant prove it.

I live in New York. That's proof that the Messiah hasn't come.

Let me reword myself, hopefully make things a little clearer.

If you don't know about Judaism, you can't declare that Judaism isn't Judaism.

If you do know about Judaism, you can declare that something that's not Judaism is not Judaism.

[Reeder]

No the bible is clear no man can see God and live and no man has seen God at anytime.

It does not say except of course unless this happen so you got the d&c contradicting what John wrote.

Did you even read what I just said? It does not contradict, it expounds and clarifies. You can believe what you want.

And besides that, as a JW, you're hardly one to argue such a point, seeing as how you likely use the New World translation.

[HokieCougarVandal]

Its not limiting God except in your own mind. God is omnipotent. An omnipotent Being, whether or not He possesses a tangible body of flesh and bone, is not limited. Actually, I take that back. I don't believe that God can lie, so I guess I believe God does have limits. Sue me.

Don't take it back, Reeder. Even though He possess a tangible body, He is who He is. He can do what He wants, when He wants, how He wants, and why He wants. Our bodies are mortal and limited. His isn't.

[Fire Watch]

What do you think about Judaism FW?
I think it's a beautiful thing. I believe that you've missed the Messiah..but still a beautiful expression of God's mercy. My Grandmother was an Orthodox Jewess and I learned a lot from here. I'm convinced it was her influence that caused me to be such a strict monotheist, rejecting the idea of a trinity (or any other number) of persons in the Godhead.

[Poisonshady313]

You're right; Jesus was not sent by God. Jesus is God.

:cue the objection from DRS:

[Constantine the Great]

:cue the objection from DRS:

Well hell's bells in all this ruckus someone had to uphold the Trinitarian point of view.

[Reeder]

I wont sue you, but I'll sure call you out on it when it contradicts scripture. Sorry.

You say God cant lie..yet you must believe Him to be lying when He said repeatedly that He is the only God there is/was/shall be. If you believe he "progressed" into Godhood, or that He had a God that He worshipped..then God must be a liar.

Only if I believe as you do, FW. I can understand why you believe that, but I don't believe your interpretation to be correct.

God does not lie.

[Fire Watch]

I live in New York. That's proof that the Messiah hasn't come.
Only according to your beliefs by faith

Now, if God splits the skys and delares it personally in front of oh..let's say a few billion folks..then we can start talking about "proof".

[CMike11]

Great, that's fine..so why the outrage from CMike11 and Koushi Shinigami when Kittycat made the statement in reverse? Why is it ok for a Jew to state that about Christianity, but not for Christians to make the same belief statement regarding Judaism?.

In fact, CMike seemed to almost want to liken it to anti-Semitism.

When did I liken it to anti-semitism?

I liken it to ignorance, especially since the posters had no clue about Judaism. I would also call it arrogance because the poster thought this one web site was the description of Judaism.

Also, FW, I am responsible for what I say, not what someone else says.

[Fire Watch]

I liken it to ignorance, especially since the posters had no clue about Judaism. I would also call it arrogance because the poster thought this one web site was the description of Judaism.

That poster was arrogant and ignorant. That's not the issue. The issue is some wanting to employ a double standard.

[Constantine the Great]

I live in New York. That's proof that the Messiah hasn't come.


Proof? No. Evidence? Perhaps based upon your point of view and your understanding of your faith. Then again, one could also chalk the fact you're still in NY up to your God given free will.

Then again, driving through some parts of NY gives me the impression I'm living through the events narrated in The Apocalypse but that's just me.

[Reeder]

Don't take it back, Reeder. Even though He possess a tangible body, He is who He is. He can do what He wants, when He wants, how He wants, and why He wants. Our bodies are mortal and limited. His isn't.

I was talking about the "God being able to lie" part. Does that "limit" God because He can't lie? Actually, I believe a person that cannot lie is more free (limitless) than those who are subject to mortal frailties such as lying and deceiving.

But you're right, HCV, a tangible body in no way limits an omnipotent God.

[DRS]

I live in New York. That's proof that the Messiah hasn't come.

Let me reword myself, hopefully make things a little clearer.

If you don't know about Judaism, you can't declare that Judaism isn't Judaism.

If you do know about Judaism, you can declare that something that's not Judaism is not Judaism.

No that just shows you can move and you do not understand the prophecies, again you go on everythign centering around the Jews, when it centers around God.

The exiles were those exiled from God

[Poisonshady313]

Only according to your beliefs by faith

Isaiah 11 isn't something I just made up. Neither is Ezekiel 37.

On the other hand... the concept of the second coming IS something that was just made up, because after asking people several times to try and locate where in the Tanach a second coming is spoken of, I've been told it cannot be done.

[HokieCougarVandal]

I was talking about the "God being able to lie" part. Does that "limit" God because He can't lie? Actually, I believe a person that cannot lie is more free (limitless) than those who are subject to mortal frailties such as lying and deceiving.

But you're right, HCV, a tangible body in no way limits an omnipotent God.

Oh ... OK. Missed that one.
:redface:

[CMike11]

Because you understanding of the prophets is different from someone else's doesn't make your understating correct, nor does it give you license to use such an obvious double standard..which despite your claim, is what it is.

I understand that you believe your understanding to be correct..but with ALL matters of faith...especially concerning such things as supernatural prophecies..you just cant prove it.

So, what comes down to is this.."what's good for the goose is good for the gander". If you're willing to make judgemental declarations regarding the faiths of others, you had better be prepared to have the same judgements cast on your beliefs.

FW you are confusing different posters.

I am the one who had the exchange with Kitty, not Shady.

Just because Shady is a Jew, doesn't mean, I said the statement, that he said.

Different Jews, have different opinions. We are not the borg, yanno?

[Poisonshady313]

No that just shows you can move and you do not understand the prophecies, again you go on everythign centering around the Jews, when it centers around God.

The exiles were those exiled from God

:wall: I have a feeling nothing I say will help you understand.

[CMike11]

That poster was arrogant and ignorant. That's not the issue. The issue is some wanting to employ a double standard.


The double standard doesn't work, because you are combining the comments of different posters.

Shady has a different take than I do, and I have a different take than Shady does.

[Reeder]

:wall: I have a feeling nothing I say will help you understand.


I think we all feel that way about eachother. :)

[hillplus]

FW you are confusing different posters.

I am the one who had the exchange with Kitty, not Shady.

Just because Shady is a Jew, doesn't mean, I said the statement, that he said.

Different Jews, have different opinions. We are not the borg, yanno?


:)) You will be assimilated. Resistance is futile.

[CMike11]

Only according to your beliefs by faith

Now, if God splits the skys and delares it personally in front of oh..let's say a few billion folks..then we can start talking about "proof".

With what Shady said here, I am in completely agreement with him.

The Messiah mentioned in the torah didn't come because:

1) The temple in jerusalem hasn't been rebuilt, and stood forever

2) All the Jews aren't in Israel

3) There isn't world peace

4) Etc.

It bothers me how the Torah, jewish scripture, is distorted.

It will be very clear when the messiah comes.

[Constantine the Great]

Isaiah 11 isn't something I just made up. Neither is Ezekiel 37.

On the other hand... the concept of the second coming IS something that was just made up, because after asking people several times to try and locate where in the Tanach a second coming is spoken of, I've been told it cannot be done.

This is a non-issue since Christianity came about with Christ's ministry. This is the danger of your previous assertion that the entire basis of our religion is Judaism when it is not. While we believe that the OT prophets spoke of Christ as the Messiah, that doesn't mean that the whole of Christian belief was uttered by those same OT prophets.

So no, teh 2nd Coming is not "made up". It is something you don't espouse as part of your faith. We do.

[Poisonshady313]

Proof? No. Evidence? Perhaps based upon your point of view and your understanding of your faith. So it now appears that you are saying the prophets were wrong.

Isaiah 11:
11. And it shall come to pass that on that day, the Lord shall continue to apply His hand a second time to acquire the rest of His people, that will remain from Assyria and from Egypt and from Pathros and from Cush and from Elam and from Sumeria and from Hamath and from the islands of the sea.
12. And He shall raise a banner to the nations, and He shall gather the lost of Israel, and the scattered ones of Judah He shall gather from the four corners of the earth.

Then again, one could also chalk the fact you're still in NY up to your God given free will. Um... no. It doesn't say "when all the Jews are back in Israel, the Messiah will come" It says "it shall come to pass that on that day, the Lord... shall gather the lost of Israel, and the scattered ones of Judah He shall gather from the four corners of the earth."

[DRS]

You're right; Jesus was not sent by God. Jesus is God.

John 4:34*Jesus said to them: “My food is for me to do the will of him that sent me and to finish his work.

5:24*Most truly I say to YOU, He that hears my word and believes him that sent me has everlasting life, and he does not come into judgment but has passed over from death to life

5:30*I cannot do a single thing of my own initiative; just as I hear, I judge; and the judgment that I render is righteous, because I seek, not my own will, but the will of him that sent me.

John 8:42*Jesus said to them: “If God were YOUR Father, YOU would love me, for from God I came forth and am here. Neither have I come of my own initiative at all, but that One sent me forth

[Poisonshady313]

While we believe that the OT prophets spoke of Christ as the Messiah, that doesn't mean that the whole of Christian belief was uttered by those same OT prophets.

If the whole of Christian belief hinges on the notion that Jesus is the Messiah spoken of by the OT prophets..... and Jesus is not the Messiah spoken of by the OT prophets... what happens to the whole of Christian belief?

[Constantine the Great]

So it now appears that you are saying the prophets were wrong.

Isaiah 11:
11. And it shall come to pass that on that day, the Lord shall continue to apply His hand a second time to acquire the rest of His people, that will remain from Assyria and from Egypt and from Pathros and from Cush and from Elam and from Sumeria and from Hamath and from the islands of the sea.
12. And He shall raise a banner to the nations, and He shall gather the lost of Israel, and the scattered ones of Judah He shall gather from the four corners of the earth.

Um... no. It doesn't say "when all the Jews are back in Israel, the Messiah will come" It says "it shall come to pass that on that day, the Lord... shall gather the lost of Israel, and the scattered ones of Judah He shall gather from the four corners of the earth."

No, I don't say the prophets are wrong; here's where you're getting caught up. We're saying, there is a chance your interpretation is wrong, just as you state ours is wrong.
Question; when it says the Lord will gather the lost of Israel, how exactly will that take place? Will a Great Big Hand pluck them off the earth and drop them in the Middle East? Will there be a collective message (ironic since someone stated that the Jews weren't the Borg) urging the lost back to Israel? Or will there be a great big sickle reaching out of the sky and there will be a harvesting of the lost? What exactly does that mean?

[Constantine the Great]

John 4:34*Jesus said to them: “My food is for me to do the will of him that sent me and to finish his work.

5:24*Most truly I say to YOU, He that hears my word and believes him that sent me has everlasting life, and he does not come into judgment but has passed over from death to life

5:30*I cannot do a single thing of my own initiative; just as I hear, I judge; and the judgment that I render is righteous, because I seek, not my own will, but the will of him that sent me.

John 8:42*Jesus said to them: “If God were YOUR Father, YOU would love me, for from God I came forth and am here. Neither have I come of my own initiative at all, but that One sent me forth

We've already gone around the park with this one DRS multiple times. Must we do it again?

[DRS]

So it now appears that you are saying the prophets were wrong.

Isaiah 11:
11. And it shall come to pass that on that day, the Lord shall continue to apply His hand a second time to acquire the rest of His people, that will remain from Assyria and from Egypt and from Pathros and from Cush and from Elam and from Sumeria and from Hamath and from the islands of the sea.
12. And He shall raise a banner to the nations, and He shall gather the lost of Israel, and the scattered ones of Judah He shall gather from the four corners of the earth.

Um... no. It doesn't say "when all the Jews are back in Israel, the Messiah will come" It says "it shall come to pass that on that day, the Lord... shall gather the lost of Israel, and the scattered ones of Judah He shall gather from the four corners of the earth."

Interesting part of the sign of Jesus prescence

Matthew 24:31*And he will send forth his angels with a great trumpet sound, and they will gather his chosen ones together from the four winds, from one extremity of the heavens to their other extremity.

[Constantine the Great]

If the whole of Christian belief hinges on the notion that Jesus is the Messiah spoken of by the OT prophets..... and Jesus is not the Messiah spoken of by the OT prophets... what happens to the whole of Christian belief?

But that's just the point; the whole of Christian belief does not hinge on the OT prophets. Does your entire faith hinge upon Moses? Does it hinge entirely upon the prophets?

[Poisonshady313]

But that's just the point; the whole of Christian belief does not hinge on the OT prophets.

Do you believe that Christianity hinges on the fact that Jesus is called "Christ" or "Messiah"? (I mean, it is right in the name of the religion...)

[DRS]

We've already gone around the park with this one DRS multiple times. Must we do it again?

You can do anythign you want but Jesus is quite clear he was sent as prophecied

61 The spirit of the Sovereign Lord Jehovah is upon me, for the reason that Jehovah has anointed me to tell good news to the meek ones. He has sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to those taken captive and the wide opening [of the eyes] even to the prisoners; 2*to proclaim the year of goodwill on the part of Jehovah and the day of vengeance on the part of our God; to comfort all the mourning ones;

[Constantine the Great]

Do you believe that Christianity hinges on the fact that Jesus is called "Christ" or "Messiah"? (I mean, it is right in the name of the religion...)

Of course it hinges on Christ being the Messiah, it doesn't hinge on just the utterances of the OT prophets which was also my point earlier in addressing your post regarding the 2nd Coming. The OT prophets are not going to have uttered every bit of the Christian faith.

[Constantine the Great]

You can do anythign you want but Jesus is quite clear he was sent as prophecied

61 The spirit of the Sovereign Lord Jehovah is upon me, for the reason that Jehovah has anointed me to tell good news to the meek ones. He has sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to those taken captive and the wide opening [of the eyes] even to the prisoners; 2*to proclaim the year of goodwill on the part of Jehovah and the day of vengeance on the part of our God; to comfort all the mourning ones;

Yes Jesus was sent as prophesied. God is the salvation of mankind, not a metamorphed archangel but thanks for playing. Jesus=God. Shall we continue this dance some more?

[Poisonshady313]

But that's just the point; the whole of Christian belief does not hinge on the OT prophets. Does your entire faith hinge upon Moses? Does it hinge entirely upon the prophets?

Given that none of the prophets are contrary to Moses... yes. Judaism hinges on the Torah.

If not for the belief that the Torah was God's eternal law given to Israel at Mt. Sinai after the exodus from Egypt... all Jews would be nothing more than just a lot of people with funny hats.

[DRS]

Yes Jesus was sent as prophesied. God is the salvation of mankind, not a metamorphed archangel but thanks for playing. Jesus=God. Shall we continue this dance some more?

The prophet whom God raise up as prophecied by Moses

All you do is show that you have no grasp of the OT prophecies concerning messiah

38*namely, Jesus who was from Naz′a‧reth, how God anointed him with holy spirit and power, and he went through the land doing good and healing all those oppressed by the Devil; because God was with him

[Constantine the Great]

Given that none of the prophets are contrary to Moses... yes. Judaism hinges on the Torah.
On the Torah, in its entirety. Not just the prophets. Not just Moses. Neither of the two are the whole basis of Judaism. The Torah is. Christ is our Torah, in a manner of speaking.

If not for the belief that the Torah was God's eternal law given to Israel at Mt. Sinai after the exodus from Egypt... all Jews would be nothing more than just a lot of people with funny hats.

Ahh yes, the belief. Now we're getting somewhere. If not for the belief Christ is the salvation for mankind, us Greeks would still be sacrificing bulls to Pallas Athena and Thunderbearing Zeus (just to name a few). My religious festivals calendar would be quite packed.

[Poisonshady313]

Of course it hinges on Christ being the Messiah, it doesn't hinge on just the utterances of the OT prophets

There's the problem right there.

The concept of the Messiah is entirely and completely dependent on the utterances of the OT prophets. Even the gospels acknowledge this by the fact that they constantly (mis)quote the prophets in order to make their case.

[Constantine the Great]

The prophet whom God raise up as prophecied by Moses

All you do is show that you have no grasp of the OT prophecies concerning messiah

38*namely, Jesus who was from Naz′a‧reth, how God anointed him with holy spirit and power, and he went through the land doing good and healing all those oppressed by the Devil; because God was with him
All you show is you have a clear grasp of heretical Arianism that is contrary to Christ's teachings and the ministry of the Apostles. Anything else?

[Poisonshady313]

On the Torah, in its entirety. Not just the prophets. Not just Moses. Neither of the two are the whole basis of Judaism. The Torah is. Christ is our Torah, in a manner of speaking.


Without the Torah itself, the words of the prophets would be meaningless.


If Jesus isn't the Messiah, the words of the apostles are meaningless.

[DRS]

All you show is you have a clear grasp of heretical Arianism that is contrary to Christ's teachings and the ministry of the Apostles. Anything else?

No what i am showing scripture after scripture from all over the bible that teaches the same thing messiah is a servent of God

[ncusa]

From the same wikipedia page,

In Christian church father Origen's Contra Celsus, written in the year 248, he writes of Isaiah 53:

Now I remember that, on one occasion, at a disputation held with certain Jews, who were reckoned wise men, I quoted these prophecies; to which my Jewish opponent replied, that these predictions bore reference to the whole people, regarded as one individual, and as being in a state of dispersion and suffering, in order that many proselytes might be gained, on account of the dispersion of the Jews among numerous heathen nations.


This was even before the Talmud was written.One Jewish opponent, and I read the whole page. the point being that all Historical Judaism does not see the passage in the same light

[Constantine the Great]

Without the Torah itself, the words of the prophets would be meaningless.
Aren't the utterances of the prophets part of the Torah?


If Jesus isn't the Messiah, the words of the apostles are meaningless.

And so we again bring it down to the level of faith don't we?

[ncusa]

Plus... you couldn't use Isaiah 53 to say Jesus was the Messiah ben Yoseph... because the NT asserts time and time again that Jesus is ben David.

You kinda have to pick one.messiah is the son of david

[Constantine the Great]

No what i am showing scripture after scripture from all over the bible that teaches the same thing messiah is a servent of God

You're showing your faulty interpretations of scripture. No, correction, you're showing your highly dubious interpretation of scripture.

Anything else? Are we done yet or do we stay on the dance floor until the next song starts?

[Poisonshady313]

One Jewish opponent, and I read the whole page. You mean to tell me that this guy simply made it up all on his own?

the point being that all Historical Judaism does not see the passage in the same light

That may be your point now... but wasn't the claim made earlier that the notion that Isaiah 53 being Israel didn't come around until Rashi in the 11th century?

[Reeder]

No what i am showing scripture after scripture from all over the bible that teaches the same thing messiah is a servent of God

Why does the New World Translation take out all the verses that mention the Godhead?

[ncusa]

There are things that are impossible with God, for example it is impossible for God to lie, it is also impossible for man to see God's face and live, which then makes it high doubtful He was man since many saw the face of Jesus even in full heavenly gloryGospel of John ch 14"if you have seen me you have seen the Father

[Constantine the Great]

Why does the New World Translation take out all the verses that mention the Godhead?

It's easier to remove that which we disagree with. How many neophyte Christians would take the time to read two bibles side by side when as a neophyte they probably have never opened one?

[DRS]

You're showing your faulty interpretations of scripture. No, correction, you're showing your highly dubious interpretation of scripture.

Anything else? Are we done yet or do we stay on the dance floor until the next song starts?

You can do anything you want prophecies are there, they are then quoted by the apostles to show Jesus is the messiah, anointed by God and send by God

[Constantine the Great]

You can do anything you want prophecies are there, they are then quoted by the apostles to show Jesus is the messiah, anointed by God and send by God

Christ is God. You're interpretation is wrong.

Next?

[DRS]

Gospel of John ch 14"if you have seen me you have seen the Father

And why is that?

As Paul sated Jesus is the reflection of his Father

[DRS]

Christ is God. You're interpretation is wrong.

Next?

It is not interpretation, Christ means anointed just as messiah does and Acts tells us God anointed him and Isaiah said Jehovah would anoint him

[Poisonshady313]

Aren't the utterances of the prophets part of the Torah? Torah, yes... but not THE Torah...

Whenever I speak of "The" Torah, I'm speaking of the five books of Moses.




And so we again bring it down to the level of faith don't we?

Not entirely.

Judaism stands on its own. Take it or leave it.

Christianity stands on the prophecies of Jewish prophets. Problem is, what you may claim are fulfilled prophecies either aren't prophecies, or aren't even words spoken anywhere in the Tanach (such as the claim that the prophets said the messiah would be a Nazarene). Then, actual prophecies that must be fulfilled to substantiate your claim are said not to be fulfilled "yet".

In order for your guy to be who you say he is, he needs to have done things which you agree he hasn't done, only because you think he will do them later. The need to do them later means they haven't been done...which means he isn't who you say he is.

[CMike11]

Aren't the utterances of the prophets part of the Torah?




And so we again bring it down to the level of faith don't we?

Actually the five books of the Torah, are considered to be the true authority. They are from G-D.

The prophets were written by the prophets themsleves, and aren't as authoritative as the five books.

[ncusa]

You're joking, right? You are aware that Solmon's building of the Temple is recorded, right? And that the destruction of it is recorded in Lamentations, right? And that Cyrus gave the people permission to build the second temple, right?


Thing is... Moses was sent by God. Jesus was not.Solomn's temple was built. ezra and nehemiah record the second temple. what about the prophecy in daniel that states the messiah would come and the temple would be destroyed?

[Reeder]

And why is that?

As Paul sated Jesus is the reflection of his Father

Actually, I agree with that - not on the same level as you, but I agree that it is speaking of Christ as the "reflection" of His Father. However, I still believe Christ is a member of the Godhead.

[DRS]

Actually, I agree with that - not on the same level as you, but I agree that it is speaking of Christ as the "reflection" of His Father. However, I still believe Christ is a member of the Godhead.

How many Almighty Gods are there in the bible?

[Poisonshady313]

Solomn's temple was built. ezra and nehemiah record the second temple. what about the prophecy in daniel that states the messiah would come and the temple would be destroyed?

Daniel doesn't state that the messiah would come.

He does state that the temple would be destroyed... and after 490 years, the temple was indeed destroyed.

If anything, Daniel makes it crystal clear that the messiah will NOT come before the second temple is destroyed.

[Reeder]

How many Almighty Gods are there in the bible?

How many verses are in the Bible?

[ncusa]

I am sorry, I misunderstood. I thought you were accusing me of making such a statement.

I had a tough day today, my whole paycheck was almost mistakenly wiped out.

As far as your question to me, I am not going to judge another religion. According to Judaism, as long as non jews keep the seven laws given to Noach by G-D they have a place in the world to come.

Just about all my posts here in the religion forum have centered, on protecting Judaism, and the Torah (OT) from being distorted. Other than that I have nothing negative to say about any religion.

In fact, in the General Interests forum, believe it or not, I protected Islam from being portrayed as a violent religion. I thought it was unfair to beat up on the religion, especially since there was no one really there to defend it.

I do believe if people kept their religion, the world would be a better place.

I think most religions center on people being a better human being.

What do you think about Judaism FW?and mike I have always tried to quote OT from your tanach to keep the misunderstandings to a minimum. and as stated before Judaism is not monolithic in their beliefs. reformed Jews for the most part don't believe in the messiah at all. the prophets were and are oracles of God given to the ancient Hebrews to be a light in this world, and yes christianity is totally dependent on the OT, because that is where God revealed Himself to us and foretold about the coming Messiah. I have read that one school of thought in judaism did allow for two messiahs, because they could not bring the suffering servant passages into line with the coming King ones. I feel that God explained it best with the two advents of the messiah, and no where in the OT does the prophets preclude this. And mike you never answered about who is king, God or the Messiah?

[DRS]

How many verses are in the Bible?

What does one have to do with the other

By the way 31102 in the KJV

[Poisonshady313]

and mike I have always tried to quote OT from your tanach to keep the misunderstandings to a minimum. and as stated before Judaism is not monolithic in their beliefs. reformed Jews for the most part don't believe in the messiah at all. the prophets were and are oracles of God given to the ancient Hebrews to be a light in this world, and yes christianity is totally dependent on the OT, because that is where God revealed Himself to us and foretold about the coming Messiah. I have read that one school of thought in judaism did allow for two messiahs, because they could not bring the suffering servant passages into line with the coming King ones. I feel that God explained it best with the two advents of the messiah, and no where in the OT does the prophets preclude this. And mike you never answered about who is king, God or the Messiah?

The concept of two messiahs... of messiah ben yoseph and messiah ben david, says that one would live to see the other. you can't claim that one of them came, died, and the other one hasn't shown up still while it's 2000 years later.

[ncusa]

Given that none of the prophets are contrary to Moses... yes. Judaism hinges on the Torah.

If not for the belief that the Torah was God's eternal law given to Israel at Mt. Sinai after the exodus from Egypt... all Jews would be nothing more than just a lot of people with funny hats.The law is good, but God through the prophet Jeremiah said He would make a new covenant with Judah and Israel

[Poisonshady313]

The law is good, but God through the prophet Jeremiah said He would make a new covenant with Judah and Israel

That hasn't happened yet.

[Reeder]

What does one have to do with the other

Just playing your game. ;)


By the way 31102 in the KJV

And you use the KJV?

[CMike11]

and mike I have always tried to quote OT from your tanach to keep the misunderstandings to a minimum. and as stated before Judaism is not monolithic in their beliefs. reformed Jews for the most part don't believe in the messiah at all. the prophets were and are oracles of God given to the ancient Hebrews to be a light in this world, and yes christianity is totally dependent on the OT, because that is where God revealed Himself to us and foretold about the coming Messiah. I have read that one school of thought in judaism did allow for two messiahs, because they could not bring the suffering servant passages into line with the coming King ones. I feel that God explained it best with the two advents of the messiah, and no where in the OT does the prophets preclude this. And mike you never answered about who is king, God or the Messiah?

King of what?

[DRS]

Just playing your game. ;)



And you use the KJV?

I have used many bible translations, the kjv though seems to be the worst as for mistranlsations of words

And I am not playing a game I am asking a serious question

[ncusa]

Torah, yes... but not THE Torah...

Whenever I speak of "The" Torah, I'm speaking of the five books of Moses.






Not entirely.

Judaism stands on its own. Take it or leave it.

Christianity stands on the prophecies of Jewish prophets. Problem is, what you may claim are fulfilled prophecies either aren't prophecies, or aren't even words spoken anywhere in the Tanach (such as the claim that the prophets said the messiah would be a Nazarene). Then, actual prophecies that must be fulfilled to substantiate your claim are said not to be fulfilled "yet".

In order for your guy to be who you say he is, he needs to have done things which you agree he hasn't done, only because you think he will do them later. The need to do them later means they haven't been done...which means he isn't who you say he is.Prophecies often have two parts. Has babylon been completely destroyed? both Isaiah and Jeremiah said it would be. does that make them false prophets, or does it mean there was a near and a far future fulfillment?

[Reeder]

I have used many bible translations, the kjv though seems to be the worst as for mistranlsations of words

Then why did you refer to it in your answer?


And I am not playing a game I am asking a serious question

So am I.

[ncusa]

The concept of two messiahs... of messiah ben yoseph and messiah ben david, says that one would live to see the other. you can't claim that one of them came, died, and the other one hasn't shown up still while it's 2000 years later.as previously stated, Jesus is son of david and son of yoseph.

[ncusa]

King of what?King of Israel

Zech 6:12-13
zech 14:8-9
Ps 145:1+13

[DRS]

Then why did you refer to it in my question?



So am I.

what is the point of your question and how does it shed light on the identity of Almighty God?

[Reeder]

what is the point of your question and how does it shed light on the identity of Almighty God?

Is there a Godhead?

[Poisonshady313]

Prophecies often have two parts. Has babylon been completely destroyed? both Isaiah and Jeremiah said it would be. does that make them false prophets, or does it mean there was a near and a far future fulfillment?

I'm still looking into that question.

One of the answers I heard so far is that it has been completely destroyed. And it's true, there is no such thing as the Babylonian Empire.

The USSR is completely destroyed too. There's no such thing.

[Poisonshady313]

as previously stated, Jesus is son of david and son of yoseph.

Yoseph the 11th son of Jacob who was sold into slavery by his brothers?

[Constantine the Great]

It is not interpretation,
Sure it is. Arian doctrine. Next?

[DRS]

Is there a Godhead?

There is one Almighty God

[Reeder]

There is one Almighty God

Is that a "No?"

(This is a loaded question. :) )

[DRS]

Sure it is. Arian doctrine. Next?

Prove me wrong using the prophecies and the apostles explaining them, if you can

[Constantine the Great]

Prove me wrong uing the prophecies and the apostles explaining them, if you can

How can I prove you wrong, when you haven't proven yourself to be right?

[DRS]

Is that a "No?"

(This is a loaded question. :) )

Espically since there are not many if any translations outside the KJV that use that term

[DRS]

How can I prove you wrong, when you haven't proven yourself to be right?

So I will take that as you do not have scriptures as I have asked for to prove your point about messiah being God

[Constantine the Great]

So I will take that as you do not have scriptures as I have asked for to prove your point about messiah being God

So I will take that cannot prove you're right. Thanks for playing.

[Reeder]

Espically since there are not many if any translations outside the KJV that use that term

How do you interpret Hebrews Chapter 1?

[CMike11]

King of Israel

Zech 6:12-13
zech 14:8-9
Ps 145:1+13:

This is zech 6, I am not sure who you are talking about:

12. And you shall speak to him, saying, "So said the Lord of Hosts, saying: Behold a man whose name is the Shoot, who will spring up out of his place and build the Temple of the Lord.
13. And he shall build the Temple of the Lord, and he shall bear glory. And he shall sit and rule on his throne, and the priest shall be on his throne. And a counsel of peace shall be between them [both].

Zech 14: it's talking about G-D

8. And it shall come to pass on that day that spring water shall come forth from Jerusalem; half of it to the eastern sea, and half of it to the western sea; in summer and in winter it shall be.
9. And the Lord shall become King over all the earth; on that day shall the Lord be one, and His name one.

Rashi:

shall the Lord be one For all the nations shall abandon their vanities and acknowledge Him, that He is one, and [that] no strange deity is with Him.
and His name one That His name shall be mentioned by everyone.

Below is Psalms 145

1. A praise of David. I shall exalt You, my God the King, and I shall bless Your name forever and ever.
2. Every day I shall bless You, and I shall praise Your name forever and ever.
3. The Lord is great and very much praised, and His greatness cannot be searched.
4. Generation to generation will praise Your works, and they will recite Your mighty deeds.
5. Of the majesty of the glory of Your splendor and the words of Your wonders I shall speak.
6. And the strength of Your awesome deeds they will tell, and Your greatness I shall sing.
7. Of the remembrance of Your abundant goodness they will speak, and of Your righteousness they will sing.
8. The Lord is gracious and compassionate, slow to anger and of great kindness.
9. The Lord is good to all, and His mercies are on all His works.
10. All Your works will thank You, O Lord, and Your pious ones will bless You.
11. They will tell the glory of Your kingdom, and they will speak of Your might.
12. To make known to the children of men His mighty deeds and the glory of the majesty of His kingdom.
13. Your kingdom is a kingdom of all times, and Your ruling is in every generation.
14. The Lord supports all those who fall and straightens all who are bent down.

I am not sure what exactly above you are referring too?

[CMike11]

as previously stated, Jesus is son of david and son of yoseph.

How did you figure that out?

[DRS]

So I will take that cannot prove you're right. Thanks for playing.

Yes I can and I will show you how it is done

Deuteronomy 18:. 15*A prophet from your own midst, from your brothers, like me, is what Jehovah your God will raise up for you—to him YOU people should listen—

Acts 3:. 22*In fact, Moses said, ‘Jehovah God will raise up for YOU from among YOUR brothers a prophet like me. YOU must listen to him according to all the things he speaks to YO

[CMike11]

I have used many bible translations, the kjv though seems to be the worst as for mistranlsations of words

And I am not playing a game I am asking a serious question

This is what I use

The Judaica Press Complete Tanach with Rashi


http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/63255/jewish/The-Bible-with-Rashi.htm

[DRS]

How do you interpret Hebrews Chapter 1?

Here is some posts on it

http://forums.hannity.com/showthread.php?t=759021&page=2

[Reeder]

Here is some posts on it

http://forums.hannity.com/showthread.php?t=759021&page=2

OK, so you believe that the term "God" does not always necessarily mean "God," (as in THE God) correct?

[CMike11]

Obviously, there is an inherent conflict.

Jews believe that they have propriety rights regarding the Torah, since it was given to Jews, and Jews have lived their lives by it, and studied it for thousands of years.

I think many jew are irked when they see the Torah distorted.

However, to Christians their NT is based on the OT, so when, I or Shady, challenge the creative interpretations of our Torah, it challenges the beliefs in the NT, and that probably offends the Christians.

And that is the conflict.

[Poisonshady313]

OK, so you believe that the term "God" does not always necessarily mean "God," (as in THE God) correct?

If I'm talking about the president of the chess club, or the president of PETA.... i'm not talking about the President of the United States.

[Reeder]

If I'm talking about the president of the chess club, or the president of PETA.... i'm not talking about the President of the United States.

I understand. I don't have an argument with it, I'm just trying to clarify his position.

[DRS]

This is what I use

The Judaica Press Complete Tanach with Rashi


http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/63255/jewish/The-Bible-with-Rashi.htm

I use the NWT, it is very accurate

[DRS]

OK, so you believe that the term "God" does not always necessarily mean "God," (as in THE God) correct?

That is correct as seen with it used in connection with Moses and the judges of Israel also

[CMike11]

I use the NWT, it is very accurate

What is NWT?

[Reeder]

What is NWT?

New World Translation

http://www.watchtower.org/bible/toc.htm

[DRS]

What is NWT?

new world translation

Isaiah 7:14*Therefore Jehovah himself will give YOU men a sign: Look! The maiden herself will actually become pregnant

[Reeder]

new world translation

Isaiah 7:14*Therefore Jehovah himself will give YOU men a sign: Look! The maiden herself will actually become pregnant

Trying to show off for the Jews? ;)

[DRS]

Trying to show off for the Jews? ;)

Nope because i know therce he is using and there is a place where the NWT and it diverges

4*For the yoke of their load and the rod upon their shoulders, the staff of the one driving them to work, you have shattered to pieces as in the day of Mid′i‧an. 5*For every boot of the one tramping with tremors and the mantle rolled in blood have even come to be for burning as food for fire. 6*For there has been a child born to us, there has been a son given to us; and the princely rule will come to be upon his shoulder. And his name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace. 7*To the abundance of the princely rule and to peace there will be no end, upon the throne of David and upon his kingdom in order to establish it firmly and to sustain it by means of justice and by means of righteousness, from now on and to time indefinite. The very zeal of Jehovah of armies will do this

[Poisonshady313]

Trying to show off for the Jews? ;)

I wouldn't call it showing off. That's a horrible translation.

[Reeder]

Nope because i know therce he is using and there is a place where the NWT and it diverges

I'm going to assume you meant to say "I know 'the source' (not 'therce') he is using........."

[DRS]

yep

[DRS]

I wouldn't call it showing off. That's a horrible translation.

Shady prefers virgin there, helps him to see it is about Jesus

[Reeder]

Shady prefers virgin there, helps him to see it is about Jesus

:))

[Poisonshady313]

Shady prefers virgin there, helps him to see it is about Jesus

Actually... I was referring to:

will actually become pregnant.

[DRS]

Actually... I was referring to:

will actually become pregnant.

Well that is what happens with prophecy, it is in the future tense

[Poisonshady313]

Well that is what happens with prophecy, it is in the future tense

we've been over this a million times.

Part of how we know the prophecy is for the extremely near future (as in, less than a year) is that the woman was already pregnant. She WILL (future) bear a child... and before that child knows good from evil, the threat of Rezin and Pekah will be eliminated.

[CMike11]

new world translation

Isaiah 7:14*Therefore Jehovah himself will give YOU men a sign: Look! The maiden herself will actually become pregnant


You mean this

http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/15938/jewish/Chapter-7.htm


14. Therefore, the Lord, of His own, shall give you a sign; behold, the young woman is with child, and she shall bear a son, and she shall call his name Immanuel.

Rashi below

the Lord, of His own, shall give you a sign He will give you a sign by Himself, against Your will.

is with child This is actually the future, as we find concerning Manoah’s wife, that the angel said to her (Judges 13:3): “And you shall conceive and bear a son,” and it is written, “Behold, you are with child and shall bear a son.”

the young woman My wife will conceive this year. This was the fourth year of Ahaz.


and she shall call his name Divine inspiration will rest upon her.
Immanuel [lit. God is with us. That is] to say that our Rock shall be with us, and this is the sign, for she is a young girl, and she never prophesied, yet in this instance, Divine inspiration shall rest upon her. This is what is stated below (8:3): “And I was intimate with the prophetess, etc.,” and we do not find a prophet’s wife called a prophetess unless she prophesied. Some interpret this as being said about Hezekiah, but it is impossible, because, when you count his years, you find that Hezekiah was born nine years before his father’s reign. And some interpret that this is the sign, that she was a young girl and incapable of giving birth.

[CMike11]

I use the NWT, it is very accurate

It seems not so accurate.

[DRS]

we've been over this a million times.

Part of how we know the prophecy is for the extremely near future (as in, less than a year) is that the woman was already pregnant. She WILL (future) bear a child... and before that child knows good from evil, the threat of Rezin and Pekah will be eliminated.

You can say anything you want jews have had years to study the the gospel writings and then try to to discredit them by saying this prophecy means something else
I think that is a major difference Jews change the prophecy to suit them as seen with scriptures like Isaiah 53 where as for Christians these are constant

[Tucson Jim]

For true monothiests there is one person alone who is called Almighty God

Merely opinion, DRS.

[Reeder]

You can say anything you want jews have had years to study the the gospel writings and then try to to discredit them by saying this prophecy means something else

:think:

[DRS]

It seems not so accurate.

Dr.*Benjamin Kedar seems to disagree with you

[DRS]

Merely opinion, DRS.

Nope that is what the scriptures say

[CMike11]

You can say anything you want jews have had years to study the the gospel writings and then try to to discredit them by saying this prophecy means something else
I think that is a major difference Jews change the prophecy to suit them as seen with scriptures like Isaiah 53 where as for Christians these are constant


This isn't about the gospel writings, this is about Isaiah, which is Jewish scripture, not Christian scripture.

Jews don't study gospel writings.

It's the Christians that changed the prophesy to validate their beliefs. This was written by a Jewish prophet, about Judaism.

It had nothing to do with Christianity.

[CMike11]

Dr.*Benjamin Kedar seems to disagree with you


So?

[Poisonshady313]

You can say anything you want jews have had years to study the the gospel writings and then try to to discredit them by saying this prophecy means something else

If it helps you to sleep at night to believe that, you go right ahead.

Truth is, the prophecy means what it means, no matter how gospel writers distort, misinterpret, and misapply them.

[Reeder]

Dr.*Benjamin Kedar seems to disagree with you

Ultimately it depends upon whether or not God endorses it.

[DRS]

This isn't about the gospel writings, this is about Isaiah, which is Jewish scripture, not Christian scripture.

Jews don't study gospel writings.

It's the Christians that changed the prophesy to validate their beliefs. This was written by a Jewish prophet, about Judaism.

It had nothing to do with Christianity.

It was not about judaism it was about God's plan for the universe

Everything in the bible surround God and His purpose

[Tucson Jim]

Nope John 1 is not Jesus creating the world and no other scriptures says so either

Col 1 says so, as we have told you countless times.

"For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

17And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. "

...............Jesus created the the church of the one body in which he is the head.

have been over this countless times .


Jesus is not a God man ,that I believe is blashpemy according to Gods Word.


Rom 1:19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
Rom 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
Rom 1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
Rom 1:22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
Rom 1:23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.


many will be fools as they stand face to face with Christ and find that he is simply what Gods Word says many times and that is that he is The Son of God and not God.

Jesus knew this and told us this truth but men think they are smarter then Jesus and smarter then God to change God into a man and make themselves fools as Romans declares.

Ah, the same old condescension from Warrior. I've been away a few days and missed it.

Sure Warrior, we all think we are smarter than Jesus.

[Tucson Jim]

Nope that is what the scriptures say

The scriptures say one God. We believe that.

[CMike11]

It was not about judaism it was about God's plan for the universe

Everything in the bible surround God and His purpose

The jewish prophets, were talking about the Jews. That was the point.

[DRS]

The jewish prophets, were talking about the Jews. That was the point.

They were men who were given visions and things to write concerning God's plan, sometimes they concerned the Jews sometimes they were dealing with the universal issues, of which for a time the Jews played their part in as God's people until God's time came for a much larger scene

[DRS]

The scriptures say one God. We believe that.

yep Psalms 83:18 Jehovah alone is most High God

[Poisonshady313]

They were men who were given visions and things to write concerning God's plan, sometimes they concerned the Jews sometimes they were dealing with the universal issues, of which for a time the Jews played their part in as God's people until God's time came for a much larger scene

The Jews will never stop being God's people.

[DRS]

The Jews will never stop being God's people.

People show themselves as God's people by how they react to those whom He sends

[CMike11]

People show themselves as God's people by how they react to those whom He sends

And when G-D sends the Messiah, the jews will react favorably toward him.

[CMike11]

the jews will never stop being god's people.

+1

[DRS]

And when G-D sends the Messiah, the jews will react favorably toward him.

No they won't and they didn't as prophecied


14*And he must become as a sacred place; but as a stone to strike against and as a rock over which to stumble to both the houses of Israel, as a trap and as a snare to the inhabitants of Jerusalem. 15*And many among them will be certain to stumble and to fall and be broken, and to be snared

[CMike11]

No they won't and they didn't as prophecied


14*And he must become as a sacred place; but as a stone to strike against and as a rock over which to stumble to both the houses of Israel, as a trap and as a snare to the inhabitants of Jerusalem. 15*And many among them will be certain to stumble and to fall and be broken, and to be snared

I found it:

Here it is and putting it into context:

14. And it shall be for a portent and a stone upon which to dash oneself and for a rock upon which to stumble for the two houses of Israel, who came to be for a snare and a trap for the inhabitants of Jerusalem.

Rashi's commentary

And it shall be for a portent That plan that Shebna plotted and that Pekah plotted to overthrow the kingdom of the House of David, shall be an omen [a preparationmss.] of the disaster destined to befall them.

for a portent Heb. לְמִקְדָשׁ, comp. (Num. 12:18) “Prepare yourself (הִתְקַדְּשׁוּ) for the morrow.”

and for a stone upon which to dash oneself upon which the feet are dashed. This is an expression of stumbling, as (in Jeremiah 13:16): “[Before] your feet are dashed (יִתְנַגְּפוּ) ,” (Psalms 91:12), “Lest you dash (תִּגֹּף) your foot on a stone.”
and for a rock upon which to stumble This is synonymous with “a stone upon which to dash oneself,” for a rock is a stone.
for the two houses of Israel who came to be for a snare and a trap for the inhabitants of Jerusalem. Now who are the two houses? Pekah son of Remaliah and his company and Shebna and his company.


15. And many shall stumble upon them, and fall and be broken, and be trapped and caught.

Rashi's commentary

And many shall stumble upon them Upon those stones, these two and their companies shall fall into the hands of their enemies; Pekah was assassinated, for Hoshea assassinated him, and the ten tribes fell into the hands of Sennacherib; and Shebna went out of Jerusalem when Sennacherib abandoned it to march on Tirhakah, king of Cush. He took along Shebna and his company and went away.

[drmilo]

The concept of two messiahs... of messiah ben yoseph and messiah ben david, says that one would live to see the other. you can't claim that one of them came, died, and the other one hasn't shown up still while it's 2000 years later.

Forgetting one thing about Christianity: Jesus rose from the dead, and lives.

[drmilo]

I have used many bible translations, the kjv though seems to be the worst as for mistranlsations of words



According to whom?

[drmilo]

I use the NWT, it is very accurate

According to whom?

[Poisonshady313]

Forgetting one thing about Christianity: Jesus rose from the dead, and lives.

Completely irrelevant.

[ncusa]

I'm still looking into that question.

One of the answers I heard so far is that it has been completely destroyed. And it's true, there is no such thing as the Babylonian Empire.

The USSR is completely destroyed too. There's no such thing.Poison, the prophecies state that no one will ever even live there again, the destruction would be so complete

Jeremiah 50 I believe and Isaiah 13?

[ncusa]

:

This is zech 6, I am not sure who you are talking about:

12. And you shall speak to him, saying, "So said the Lord of Hosts, saying: Behold a man whose name is the Shoot, who will spring up out of his place and build the Temple of the Lord.
13. And he shall build the Temple of the Lord, and he shall bear glory. And he shall sit and rule on his throne, and the priest shall be on his throne. And a counsel of peace shall be between them [both].

Zech 14: it's talking about G-D

8. And it shall come to pass on that day that spring water shall come forth from Jerusalem; half of it to the eastern sea, and half of it to the western sea; in summer and in winter it shall be.
9. And the Lord shall become King over all the earth; on that day shall the Lord be one, and His name one.

Rashi:

shall the Lord be one For all the nations shall abandon their vanities and acknowledge Him, that He is one, and [that] no strange deity is with Him.
and His name one That His name shall be mentioned by everyone.

Below is Psalms 145

1. A praise of David. I shall exalt You, my God the King, and I shall bless Your name forever and ever.
2. Every day I shall bless You, and I shall praise Your name forever and ever.
3. The Lord is great and very much praised, and His greatness cannot be searched.
4. Generation to generation will praise Your works, and they will recite Your mighty deeds.
5. Of the majesty of the glory of Your splendor and the words of Your wonders I shall speak.
6. And the strength of Your awesome deeds they will tell, and Your greatness I shall sing.
7. Of the remembrance of Your abundant goodness they will speak, and of Your righteousness they will sing.
8. The Lord is gracious and compassionate, slow to anger and of great kindness.
9. The Lord is good to all, and His mercies are on all His works.
10. All Your works will thank You, O Lord, and Your pious ones will bless You.
11. They will tell the glory of Your kingdom, and they will speak of Your might.
12. To make known to the children of men His mighty deeds and the glory of the majesty of His kingdom.
13. Your kingdom is a kingdom of all times, and Your ruling is in every generation.
14. The Lord supports all those who fall and straightens all who are bent down.

I am not sure what exactly above you are referring too?zech 6 the shoot, branch, who will be king and priest
zech 14:8-9 14:16 appears to be a messianic passage or at least a messianic kingdom. Is the messiah King or Is God King? Just asking for your perspective

[CMike11]

Forgetting one thing about Christianity: Jesus rose from the dead, and lives.

Not the way I see it.
I do agree that he did die though. Does that count?

[CMike11]

zech 6 the shoot, branch, who will be king and priest
zech 14:8-9 14:16 appears to be a messianic passage or at least a messianic kingdom. Is the messiah King or Is God King? Just asking for your perspective

Zech 6 12. And you shall speak to him, saying, "So said the Lord of Hosts, saying: Behold a man whose name is the Shoot, who will spring up out of his place and build the Temple of the Lord.

Rashi below
whose name is the Shoot He is Zerubbabel, mentioned above (3:8): “Behold, I bring My servant, the Shoot,” since his greatness burgeoned little by little. Some interpret this as referring to the King Messiah, but the entire context deals with the [time of the] Second Temple.who will spring up out of his place From royal descent.


The answer to your second question is yes.

[DRS]

I found it:

Here it is and putting it into context:

14. And it shall be for a portent and a stone upon which to dash oneself and for a rock upon which to stumble for the two houses of Israel, who came to be for a snare and a trap for the inhabitants of Jerusalem.

Rashi's commentary

And it shall be for a portent That plan that Shebna plotted and that Pekah plotted to overthrow the kingdom of the House of David, shall be an omen [a preparationmss.] of the disaster destined to befall them.

for a portent Heb. לְמִקְדָשׁ, comp. (Num. 12:18) “Prepare yourself (הִתְקַדְּשׁוּ) for the morrow.”

and for a stone upon which to dash oneself upon which the feet are dashed. This is an expression of stumbling, as (in Jeremiah 13:16): “[Before] your feet are dashed (יִתְנַגְּפוּ) ,” (Psalms 91:12), “Lest you dash (תִּגֹּף) your foot on a stone.”
and for a rock upon which to stumble This is synonymous with “a stone upon which to dash oneself,” for a rock is a stone.
for the two houses of Israel who came to be for a snare and a trap for the inhabitants of Jerusalem. Now who are the two houses? Pekah son of Remaliah and his company and Shebna and his company.


15. And many shall stumble upon them, and fall and be broken, and be trapped and caught.

Rashi's commentary

And many shall stumble upon them Upon those stones, these two and their companies shall fall into the hands of their enemies; Pekah was assassinated, for Hoshea assassinated him, and the ten tribes fell into the hands of Sennacherib; and Shebna went out of Jerusalem when Sennacherib abandoned it to march on Tirhakah, king of Cush. He took along Shebna and his company and went away.

Again another example of rewriting the interpretation more t a 1000 years after the Christian scriptures were written.

Try to find someone else to back up that view who wrote it pre 100 Ad or who was not influenced by the crusades

[CMike11]

Again another example of rewriting the interpretation more t a 1000 years after the Christian scriptures were written.

Try to find someone else to back up that view who wrote it pre 100 Ad or who was not influenced by the crusades

I don't think I need too.

You asked for the context, that is it.

[DRS]

No the context that was given was the view held by Rashi, I can provided Christian writings from almost 2000 years ago that explain differently

22*For both the Jews ask for signs and the Greeks look for wisdom; 23*but we preach Christ impaled, to the Jews a cause for stumbling but to the nations foolishness; 24*however, to those who are the called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. 25*Because a foolish thing of God is wiser than men, and a weak thing of God is stronger than men

[CMike11]

No the context that was given was the view held by Rashi, I can provided Christian writings from almost 2000 years ago that explain differently

22*For both the Jews ask for signs and the Greeks look for wisdom; 23*but we preach Christ impaled, to the Jews a cause for stumbling but to the nations foolishness; 24*however, to those who are the called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. 25*Because a foolish thing of God is wiser than men, and a weak thing of God is stronger than men

Yeah, but we are talking about Judaism.

If this was a question about the NT, that might have relevance, but it doesn't regarding Judaism.

[DRS]

No we are talking about the bible, at lest you are starting to aknowledge the ifference between judaism and the bible.

You have given the Jewish view and i have given the divinely inspired view

[Reeder]

No we are talking about the bible, at lest you are starting to aknowledge the ifference between judaism and the bible.

You have given the Jewish view and i have given the divinely inspired view

A bit arrogant, don't ya think?

[DRS]

A bit arrogant, don't ya think?

Nope based in faith, which allows one to speak with the boldness that was talked about by Paul

Do you think the works of Rashi compare to that of the inspired accounts?

[Constantine the Great]

No we are talking about the bible, at lest you are starting to aknowledge the ifference between judaism and the bible.

You have given the Jewish view and i have given the divinely inspired view

There is nothing divinely inspired in the teachings of Arius.

[CMike11]

No we are talking about the bible, at lest you are starting to aknowledge the ifference between judaism and the bible.

You have given the Jewish view and i have given the divinely inspired view


Maybe you are god too. I didn't think of that :doh:

[Angryamerican]

Is there a Godhead?

How come the word godhead does not appear anywhere in the OT ?

If God Jesus and the Holy spirit has always existed. And that was a term to describe God in the nt why not use it in the ot ?

[Reeder]

How come the word godhead does not appear anywhere in the OT ?

If God Jesus and the Holy spirit has always existed. And that was a term to describe God in the nt why not use it in the ot ?

Take it how you will, but Genesis contains the account of the creation where God is speaking to someone else saying "let US make man in OUR image." You can say its angels, or you can say its the Son, but someone else was there with God at the beginning.

[DRS]

There is nothing divinely inspired in the teachings of Arius.

no there is not good thing I am not an arian

[DRS]

Maybe you are god too. I didn't think of that :doh:

Nope not God just quoting the works of men inspired by God

[CMike11]

Nope not God just quoting the works of men inspired by God

No you weren't.

[DRS]

No you weren't.

Yes i was as Paul was every bit as inspired as Moses

[CMike11]

Yes i was as Paul was every bit as inspired as Moses


:rolleyes:

[CMike11]

How come the word godhead does not appear anywhere in the OT ?

If God Jesus and the Holy spirit has always existed. And that was a term to describe God in the nt why not use it in the ot ?

I know, I know.

Because there is only one G-D, and that is G-D, according to Judaism.

[DRS]

There is only one God in the Christian faith also, and that God is one Person and it is the same person from Genesis to Revelation

Hence you find in Psalms and Revelation the term Praise Jah

[Reeder]

There is only one God in the Christian faith also, and that God is one Person and it is the same person from Genesis to Revelation

Hence you find in Psalms and Revelation the term Praise Jah

You would be more accurate in describing your own denomination, rather than "Christianity" as a whole.

[Angryamerican]

Take it how you will, but Genesis contains the account of the creation where God is speaking to someone else saying "let US make man in OUR image." You can say its angels, or you can say its the Son, but someone else was there with God at the beginning.

Well in Job we know that the angels were present.

Job 38:4 Where were you when I laid the foundations of the earth? Tell if you have understanding!
Job 38:5 Who has set its measurements, for you know? Or who has stretched the line on it?
Job 38:6 On what are its bases sunk, or who cast its cornerstone,
Job 38:7 when the morning stars sang together and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

[Reeder]

Well in Job we know that the angels were present.

Job 38:4 Where were you when I laid the foundations of the earth? Tell if you have understanding!
Job 38:5 Who has set its measurements, for you know? Or who has stretched the line on it?
Job 38:6 On what are its bases sunk, or who cast its cornerstone,
Job 38:7 when the morning stars sang together and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

Thats true, and I believe that as well. I believe we were the "sons of God" who shouted for joy.

So I assume you would agree that the angels are also in "God's image?"

[Angryamerican]

There is nothing divinely inspired in the teachings of Arius.

How do you know your beliefs are divinely inspired ?

It's that word faith again. :))

[DRS]

You would be more accurate in describing your own denomination, rather than "Christianity" as a whole.

Christians believe Chirst is the messiah as was prophecied.

Anointed by God raised by God and a worshipper of God.

[Angryamerican]

There is only one God in the Christian faith also, and that God is one Person and it is the same person from Genesis to Revelation

Hence you find in Psalms and Revelation the term Praise Jah

No you are wrong ,satan and Jesus are called gods and they are both worshiped. Was moses ever worshiped DRS ? Would that not make them rivals to God the only the Almighty.

[Reeder]

Christians believe Chirst is the messiah as was prophecied.

Anointed by God raised by God and a worshipper of God.


This is the part I was talking about:


There is only one God in the Christian faith also, and that God is one Person


Most "Christians" would disagree with you that God is only one Person.

[Angryamerican]

Thats true, and I believe that as well. I believe we were the "sons of God" who shouted for joy.

So I assume you would agree that the angels are also in "God's image?"

Yes.

[Reeder]

Yes.

Well then we've found our common ground. :D

[Angryamerican]

Well then we've found our common ground. :D

Yes we did.

[DRS]

This is the part I was talking about:




Most "Christians" would disagree with you that God is only one Person.

Then that puts those who claim the Christian at odds with the bible

5*For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, a man, Christ Jesus

4*“Listen, O Israel: Jehovah our God is one Jehovah 5*And you must love Jehovah your God with all your heart and all your soul and all your vital force.

Jesus would have quoted these words when under temptation by the devil and again when asked about the greatest commandments

That people may know that you, whose name is Jehovah, You alone are the Most High over all the earth.

[Angryamerican]

Good day everyone i must sleep.

[ncusa]

I don't think I need too.

You asked for the context, that is it.Not to agree with drs mike, but rashi's context is not the only context.

[ncusa]

No we are talking about the bible, at lest you are starting to aknowledge the ifference between judaism and the bible.

You have given the Jewish view and i have given the divinely inspired viewarrogance never proves your point

[DRS]

Was it arrogant when Elijah displayed his confidence in God

[ncusa]

Is the annoited king in Daniel Ch 9 the messiah?

[Reeder]

Was it arrogant when Elijah displayed his confidence in God

There is a difference between confidence and arrogance.

[DRS]

Is the annoited king in Daniel Ch 9 the messiah?

Are you asking about this passage

24*“There are seventy weeks that have been determined upon your people and upon your holy city, in order to terminate the transgression, and to finish off sin, and to make atonement for error, and to bring in righteousness for times indefinite, and to imprint a seal upon vision and prophet, and to anoint the Holy of Holies. 25*And you should know and have the insight [that] from the going forth of [the] word to restore and to rebuild Jerusalem until Mes‧si′ah [the] Leader, there will be seven weeks, also sixty-two weeks. She will return and be actually rebuilt, with a public square and moat, but in the straits of the times. 26*“And after the sixty-two weeks Mes‧si′ah will be cut off, with nothing for himself. “And the city and the holy place the people of a leader that is coming will bring to their ruin. And the end of it will be by the flood. And until [the] end there will be war; what is decided upon is desolations. 27*“And he must keep [the] covenant in force for the many for one week; and at the half of the week he will cause sacrifice and gift offering to cease. “And upon the wing of disgusting things there will be the one causing desolation; and until an extermination, the very thing decided upon will go pouring out also upon the one lying desolate.”

[DRS]

There is a difference between confidence and arrogance.

Right it is arrogant to say Jesus is not the messiah and the apostles were not inspired

It is with confidence I can say the apostles understanding is divinely inspired and Rashi's is not

[Reeder]

Right it is arrogant to say Jesus is not the messiah and the apostles were not inspired

It is with confidence I can say the apostles understanding is divinely inspired and Rashi's is not

Do you not see the double standard in your post? Its OK (confident) for you to say that Rashi is not inspired, but its arrogant for someone else to say that the Apostles were not inspired? :wall:

[ncusa]

Are you asking about this passage

24*“There are seventy weeks that have been determined upon your people and upon your holy city, in order to terminate the transgression, and to finish off sin, and to make atonement for error, and to bring in righteousness for times indefinite, and to imprint a seal upon vision and prophet, and to anoint the Holy of Holies. 25*And you should know and have the insight [that] from the going forth of [the] word to restore and to rebuild Jerusalem until Mes‧si′ah [the] Leader, there will be seven weeks, also sixty-two weeks. She will return and be actually rebuilt, with a public square and moat, but in the straits of the times. 26*“And after the sixty-two weeks Mes‧si′ah will be cut off, with nothing for himself. “And the city and the holy place the people of a leader that is coming will bring to their ruin. And the end of it will be by the flood. And until [the] end there will be war; what is decided upon is desolations. 27*“And he must keep [the] covenant in force for the many for one week; and at the half of the week he will cause sacrifice and gift offering to cease. “And upon the wing of disgusting things there will be the one causing desolation; and until an extermination, the very thing decided upon will go pouring out also upon the one lying desolate.”of course, and before you start onto something I was asking our jewish friends

[Poisonshady313]

Is the annoited king in Daniel Ch 9 the messiah?

No.

[ncusa]

No.why not?

[ncusa]

No.gotten anything about babylon and he prophets yet? seems like the word is the declaration to rebuild and not the word to daniel ( apart from the commentary)

[Poisonshady313]

Take it how you will, but Genesis contains the account of the creation where God is speaking to someone else saying "let US make man in OUR image." You can say its angels, or you can say its the Son, but someone else was there with God at the beginning.

Let us make Man. This preamble indicates that Man was created with great deliberation and wisdom. God did not say, "Let the earth bring forth," as He did with other creatures; instead, Man was brought into being with the deepest involvement of Divine Providence and wisdom.

Targum Yonasan paraphrases: "And God said to the ministering angels who had been created on the second day of Creation of the world, 'Let us make Man.'"

When Moses wrote the Torah and came to this verse (let us make), which is in the plural and implies, God forbid, that there is more than one Creator, he said: "Sovereign of the Universe! Why do You thus furnish a pretext for heretics to maintain that there is a plurality of divinities?" "Write!" God replied. "Whoever wishes to err will err... Instead, let them learn from their Creator Who created all, yet when He came to create Man He took counsel with the ministering angels".

Thus God taught that one should always consult others before embarking upon major new initiatives, and He was not deterred by the possibility that some might choose to find a sacrilegious implication in the verse. The implication of God's response, "Whoever [B]wishes[B] to err," is that one who sincerely seeks the truth will see it; one who looks for an excuse to blaspheme will find it.

[Poisonshady313]

why not?

The anointed king of Daniel 9 is Cyrus.

The anointed king who would be cut off is Agrippa.

Context is everything. When everything is worked out, the 490 years are from the destruction of one temple until the destruction of the other.

And if the messiah is supposed to bring about an everlasting temple, he certainly couldn't have come before the second one was destroyed.

[Reeder]

Let us make Man. This preamble indicates that Man was created with great deliberation and wisdom. God did not say, "Let the earth bring forth," as He did with other creatures; instead, Man was brought into being with the deepest involvement of Divine Providence and wisdom.

Targum Yonasan paraphrases: "And God said to the ministering angels who had been created on the second day of Creation of the world, 'Let us make Man.'"

When Moses wrote the Torah and came to this verse (let [B]us[B] make), which is in the plural and implies, God forbid, that there is more than one Creator, he said: "Sovereign of the Universe! Why do You thus furnish a pretext for heretics to maintain that there is a plurality of divinities?" "Write!" God replied. "Whoever wishes to err will err... Instead, let them learn from their Creator Who created all, yet when He came to create Man He took counsel with the ministering angels".

Thus God taught that one should always consult others before embarking upon major new initiatives, and He was not deterred by the possibility that some might choose to find a sacrilegious implication in the verse. The implication of God's response, "Whoever [B]wishes[B] to err," is that one who sincerely seeks the truth will see it; one who looks for an excuse to blaspheme will find it.

OK, my turn:

http://scriptures.lds.org/en/moses/2

[Poisonshady313]

gotten anything about babylon and he prophets yet? seems like the word is the declaration to rebuild and not the word to daniel ( apart from the commentary)

The word is the prophecy spoken by Jeremiah in Jeremiah 29.

[Warrior4God]

Thanks, Warrior, for once again suggesting that all trinitarians are fools. So very Christian of you.

Yes, we have been over how Christ created the worlds countless times, but IMO, Warrior, you have yet to give credible evidence that the Bible does not mean what it actually says about WHO The Creator of THE WORLDS is, especially these particular verses:

• Eph. 3:9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

That seems so clear to me.

So does this:

• Col. 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: 17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. 18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he (JESUS CHRIST) might have the preeminence.

Notice, please, that AFTER it is stated that Jesus Christ created ALL THINGS, it says "AND He is the head of the body..."

That "AND" separates the "all things" from the "head of the body," showing that the things He created were not involving Him being the "head of the body."

===================

But, let's especially remember that jESUS CHRIST must have the PREEMINENCE. God shares His glory with noone, so Jesus Christ must be God!

===================

More CREATOR verses:
• Heb. 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; 3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.


Who is the Word of God?
• John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. ...14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, ...

• Rev. 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. 12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. 13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. 14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. 5 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. ... 16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.
• 1Tim. 6:14 That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukeable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ: 15 Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;

=====================

I hope you see the logic there, Warrior, but just in case you don't...

LOGICAL STEP ONE...

A) The Word of God is The King of Kings and Lord of Lords (Rev. 19)

B) Jesus is The King of Kings and Lord of Lords (1Tim. 6:14)

C) Therefore, Jesus is The Word of God.

and LOGICAL STEP TWO...

D) The Word of God created THE WORLDS. (Heb. 1:3)

E) Jesus is The Word of God. (John 1:1)

F) Therefore, Jesus created the worlds.


and finally, LOGICAL STEP THREE...

G) God created the worlds

H) Jesus created the worlds

I) Therefore, Jesus is God.

So, since you, Warrior, do believe that Jesus was a man, and the above just showed that Jesus was GOD THE CREATOR, that makes Him THE GOD-MAN, doesn't it?

Again I ask, Warrior, can a man create ANYTHING?

Yes DJim it is very Christian to reprove when one is in error.

Rom 1:22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
Rom 1:23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.


Once again the verses your posting have been severely misunderstood and mistranslated as well,which I have shown in this thread and frankly I am tired of showing your error and watch you spin things to make Jesus God.


You keep saying my view of Jesus being a man is wrong but scripture shows Jesus is a man and at the moment that your reading this he is still a man .......................
1Ti 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

[Reeder]

Yes DJim it is very Christian to reprove when one is in error.

Rom 1:22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
Rom 1:23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.


Once again the verses your posting have been severely misunderstood and mistranslated as well,which I have shown in this thread and frankly I am tired of showing your error and watch you spin things to make Jesus God.


You keep saying my view of Jesus being a man is wrong but scripture shows Jesus is a man and at the moment that your reading this he is still a man .......................
1Ti 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

Sorry, Warrior.....I'm sure you've answered this, but what do you make of this scripture:

John 20:27-28

27 Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.

28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.

[DispensationalJim]

Yes DJim it is very Christian to reprove when one is in error.

Rom 1:22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
Rom 1:23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.


Once again the verses your posting have been severely misunderstood and mistranslated as well,which I have shown in this thread and frankly I am tired of showing your error and watch you spin things to make Jesus God.


You keep saying my view of Jesus being a man is wrong but scripture shows Jesus is a man and at the moment that your reading this he is still a man .......................
1Ti 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

I am sorry that you are getting tired of defending your opinions and views, Warrior. I never tire of defending God's Word.

Yes, Warrior, that is why so many of us are reproving you since you are IMO absolutely and positively WRONG, but at least we aren't suggesting that you are a fool... just simply and sincerely WRONG.

YOu tell me that my King James Bible is mistranslated, which I of course believe is totally incorrect. As I see it, Warrior, you have NEVER proven even one verse to be mistranslated. You have quoted other theologians whose OPINION was that the verses were incorrect, but I have quoted other theologians, equally qualified, who said the King James is correct, so we have what is called a "stale-mate."

You may claim, Warrior, that the "majority" is on your side, but we all know that the majority is not always right, don't we? If the majority is right, then we need to become Muslims. Jesus spoke about the majority, too, didn't He?
• Matt. 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: 14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

Warrior, I believe with all my heart that you are the one who is "spinning" the Scriptures. You cannot just quote verses from the Bible because you do not have a Bible you can rely on, do you? You must pick and choose the verses that fit your belief from what ever version has "corrected" the verses in question to your liking.

I just quote the good old King James (which you used to say was your favorite version), but now you say the King James is untrustworthy. So which ONE VERSION is trustworthy to you NOW, Warrior? Please pick one and only one and stick with it. As I have said before, jumping around from version to version IMO makes you the authority instead of God.

=========================

So, Warrior, could you at least please respond to the last part of my previous post to you?

Here it is again:

++++++++++++++++++++++++

I hope you see the logic there, Warrior, but just in case you don't...

LOGICAL STEP ONE...

A) The Word of God is The King of Kings and Lord of Lords (Rev. 19)

B) Jesus is The King of Kings and Lord of Lords (1Tim. 6:14)

C) Therefore, Jesus is The Word of God.

and LOGICAL STEP TWO...

D) The Word of God created THE WORLDS. (Heb. 1:3)

E) Jesus is The Word of God. (John 1:1)

F) Therefore, Jesus created the worlds.


and finally, LOGICAL STEP THREE...

G) God created the worlds

H) Jesus created the worlds

I) Therefore, Jesus is God.

So, since you, Warrior, do believe that Jesus was a man, and the above just showed that Jesus was GOD THE CREATOR, that makes Him THE GOD-MAN, doesn't it?

Again I ask, Warrior, can a man create ANYTHING?

========================

[DRS]

Sorry but step three falls down when compared to Proverbs where it shows Jesus there beside God as the master worker.

Hence it can be said things are created through him

[DispensationalJim]

Sorry but step three falls down when compared to Proverbs where it shows Jesus there beside God as the master worker.

Hence it can be said things are created through him

And several people have proven to you repeatedly, clearly and absolutely, DRS, that your taken out of context wisdom of Proverbs 8 is a "she" and is not speaking of Jesus.

Please answer my question which followed Step Three.

Can any man create anything? (The answer is NO).

Only God can create anything from nothing.

[DRS]

Then are you stating the bible contradicts itself?

The word doesw not refer to the gender of the person who is being spoken of if that was true then Solomon would be a woman since congregator is feminine.

Now was Jesus with God in the beginning and was it through him all things were created?

If so then Jesus is being spoken of here or maybe you believe someone else was beside |Jehovah as the master worker

[Poisonshady313]

Then are you stating the bible contradicts itself?

The word doesw not refer to the gender of the person who is being spoken of if that was true then Solomon would be a woman since congregator is feminine.


A word having a feminine ending is very different from a female pronoun (she), which could only ever refer to a female (or at least things which are referred to as females... nations, cars, wisdom itself.)

For example:

The word Police in Spanish is Policía. A word with a feminine ending. Are we to assume that all Police officers are women? NO.

That being said, you would NEVER find the word "ella" being used to describe a man. Never.

I'm sure Abe, nofear2, and mimiheart, as our resident experts on the Hebrew language will back me up on this.

[DRS]

You argue that yet another Jew I was reading said the passage refers to Solomon and said the word being femine presented no problem for the word Qo·hel´ eth is femine also and refers to Solomon

[Poisonshady313]

You argue that yet another Jew I was reading said the passage refers to Solomon and said the word being femine presented no problem for the word Qo·hel´ eth is femine also and refers to Solomon

I never said it presented a problem.


You may want to re-read my post a few times. It's obvious from this post that you are missing something.

[DRS]

Well if we are making the same arguement then maybe DJIm can read it and then move on with his assertion the person is a she, though it seems he gets his info from another website

[Poisonshady313]

Well if we are making the same arguement then maybe DJIm can read it and then move on with his assertion the person is a she, though it seems he gets his info from another website

We are not making the same argument.

What I'm saying is, invoking Solomon being called Kohelet is an invalid comparison to wisdom being spoken of as a female.... because there is no denying that wisdom is a female.

Whereas the word Kohelet is a word that doesn't have a form for each gender.... much like the spanish word policía.

That's why Solomon can be called Kohelet, but Wisdom IS NOT A MAN.

[DispensationalJim]

Then are you stating the bible contradicts itself?

The word doesw not refer to the gender of the person who is being spoken of if that was true then Solomon would be a woman since congregator is feminine.

Now was Jesus with God in the beginning and was it through him all things were created?

If so then Jesus is being spoken of here or maybe you believe someone else was beside |Jehovah as the master worker

I certainly do not believe the Bible contradicts itself, DRS. Do you?

Prov. 8 is speaking, of course, of WISDOM, as every translation I know of says, including yours:

• NWT - Proverbs 8
12 “I, wisdom, I have resided with shrewdness and I find even the knowledge of thinking abilities. ... 22 “Jehovah himself produced me as the beginning of his way, the earliest of his achievements of long ago. 23 From time indefinite I was installed, from the start, from times earlier than the earth.

So the passage says Jehovah produced wisdom at the beginning of His way. In other words, He has ALWAYS had wisdom. After all, He is God. The same would be true with His Son, would it not? He also ALWAYS had wisdom.

But, again I ask you, DRS, could any MAN create the worlds from nothing? (Again, the answer is obviously NO) That man would have to have the creative powers of God Himself, thus He would have to be God!

[DRS]

We are not making the same argument.

What I'm saying is, invoking Solomon being called Kohelet is an invalid comparison to wisdom being spoken of as a female.... because there is no denying that wisdom is a female.

Whereas the word Kohelet is a word that doesn't have a form for each gender.... much like the spanish word policía.

That's why Solomon can be called Kohelet, but Wisdom IS NOT A MAN.

So then the person who says it refers to Solomon is saying he is a woman and you are saying the Torah is a woman since you say it refers to that

[DRS]

I certainly do not believe the Bible contradicts itself, DRS. Do you?

Prov. 8 is speaking, of course, of WISDOM, as every translation I know of says, including yours:

• NWT - Proverbs 8
12 “I, wisdom, I have resided with shrewdness and I find even the knowledge of thinking abilities. ... 22 “Jehovah himself produced me as the beginning of his way, the earliest of his achievements of long ago. 23 From time indefinite I was installed, from the start, from times earlier than the earth.

So the passage says Jehovah produced wisdom at the beginning of His way. In other words, He has ALWAYS had wisdom. After all, He is God. The same would be true with His Son, would it not? He also ALWAYS had wisdom.

But, again I ask you, DRS, could any MAN create the worlds from nothing? (Again, the answer is obviously NO) That man would have to have the creative powers of God Himself, thus He would have to be God!


So wisdom was produced created

IF God gives someone the power to create or the building blocks they can create but it was God who made it possible, like when humans procreate they do the creating from the genetic material they are given so it is ultimately |God is who creates the child

[Poisonshady313]

So then the person who says it refers to Solomon is saying he is a woman No and you are saying the Torah is a woman since you say it refers to that

Yeah... sort of like the same way America is a woman...

From "God Bless America"

"...Stand beside her, and guide her..."

[DRS]

But inanimate objects can not act as a master worker and find joy in something like Jesus did

[DispensationalJim]

So wisdom was produced created

IF God gives someone the power to create or the building blocks they can create but it was God who made it possible, like when humans procreate they do the creating from the genetic material they are given so it is ultimately |God is who creates the child

But man cannot create the worlds from NOTHING! Only God can.

Even animals can reproduce, but God already gave them the "ability" and "equipment" to do so. That doesn't mean an animal can create the worlds.

[gpd®]

But man cannot create the worlds from NOTHING! Only God can.

Even animals can reproduce, but God already gave them the "ability" and "equipment" to do so. That doesn't mean an animal can create the worlds.

DJ, how about more specifically, man cannot create worlds just by the WORDS from his mouth? Only God can

[DispensationalJim]

DJ, how about more specifically, man cannot create worlds just by the WORDS from his mouth? Only God can

Great addition! Thank you.

That made me think...
If God could create the worlds just by speaking them into existence (as we know He can and did), why would He create a "man" to do it for Him?

[DRS]

DJ, how about more specifically, man cannot create worlds just by the WORDS from his mouth? Only God can

God said let there be something, we are not told how they came to be just that they were done with God's blessing, forexample we know the animals were not created with just his voice

[DRS]

Great addition! Thank you.

That made me think...
If God could create the worlds just by speaking them into existence (as we know He can and did), why would He create a "man" to do it for Him?

He created a son a spirit creature who became man

[Poisonshady313]

But inanimate objects can not act as a master worker and find joy in something like Jesus did

I'll need you to cite for me the verse that says anything about a master worker.

[Reeder]

I'll need you to cite for me the verse that says anything about a master worker.

Your sig line(s) cracks me up.

:))

[Poisonshady313]

Your sig line(s) cracks me up.

:))

I've been here for 10,000 posts... I'll let other people patting me on the back be publicly known. :)

[DRS]

I'll need you to cite for me the verse that says anything about a master worker.

the hebrew would be fosterling

[Reeder]

I've been here for 10,000 posts... I'll let other people patting me on the back be publicly known. :)

:dance:

[gpd®]

I've been here for 10,000 posts... I'll let other people patting me on the back be publicly known. :)

I thought you were collecting scalps.:))

[gpd®]

God said let there be something, we are not told how they came to be just that they were done with God's blessing, forexample we know the animals were not created with just his voice


God said, "........................!!"

....................and there was!

Is good enough for my feeble mind.

[Poisonshady313]

the hebrew would be fosterling

Please cite the verse.

[Poisonshady313]

the hebrew would be fosterling

fosterling... that's no hebrew word I've ever heard of. In fact... Firefox doesn't recognize it as an english word.

There's no such thing as a soft g in Hebrew... as one might find in the ending "ing".

There is only the hard g... as in the word gun.

[CMike11]

No

Yeah... sort of like the same way America is a woman...

From "God Bless America"

"...Stand beside her, and guide her..."

Probably a better voice.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vJNqep77vBw&feature=related

[DRS]

God said, "........................!!"

....................and there was!

Is good enough for my feeble mind.

I read all the bible so as to understand

24*And God went on to say: “Let the earth put forth living souls according to their kinds, domestic animal and moving animal and wild beast of the earth according to its kind.” And it came to be so

next verse

25*And God proceeded to make the wild beast of the earth according to its kind and the domestic animal according to its kind and every moving animal of the ground according to its kind

next chapter on the same issue

19*Now Jehovah God was forming from the ground every wild beast of the field and every flying creature of the heavens, and he began bringing them to the man to see what he would call each one; and whatever the man would call it, each living soul, that was its name

So we see that it was more than just saying and it happened

[DRS]

fosterling... that's no hebrew word I've ever heard of. In fact... Firefox doesn't recognize it as an english word.

There's no such thing as a soft g in Hebrew... as one might find in the ending "ing".

There is only the hard g... as in the word gun.

fosterling would be the english

אָמֹון

[Poisonshady313]

Probably a better voice.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vJNqep77vBw&feature=related

You've never heard me sing. ;)