Should You Believe In The Trinity?

[DRS]

They took up stones because HE equated Himself with God. Jesus received worship, only God is to be worshipped.

When took stones to kill Moses did you think he was God?

How about when they killed Isaiah?

Jesus was bowed to as a king

[ncusa]

What does I am have to do with anything, the jews killed prophets beforeWhen Jesus looked out over Jerusalem and said how He longed to cover her with His wings...reference OT texts of God Almighty saying the same. Someone previously quoted Thomas as saying " my Lord and My God" theou....no orthodox Jew would say that a man was his God

[ncusa]

When took stones to kill Moses did you think he was God?

How about when they killed Isaiah?

Jesus was bowed to as a kingGod said that HE was Israels King

[ncusa]

When took stones to kill Moses did you think he was God?

How about when they killed Isaiah?

Jesus was bowed to as a kingThe Point is....if Jesus said that before Abraham was I AM.....who was He talking about? They told HIM that he was only so old and that He claimed to be before Abraham, then they wanted to stone HIM

[DRS]

God said that HE was Israels King

And when the people rejected Him as king he allowed them to have another and prophesied that messiah would come through the kingly line.

When you state that messiah is God Almighty you make the word the prophecies mean nothing, you make the examples in the bible meaningless

I can back everything I believe with regards to Christianity and Jesus using examples, prefigurements and scriptures from the hebrew scriptures just as the writers of Matthew to Revelation do

[Angryamerican]

God said that HE was Israels King

You both make a good argument , But this is why i no longer trust the nt. Gods word cannot contradict itself and be Gods word.

[DRS]

The Point is....if Jesus said that before Abraham was I AM.....who was He talking about? They told HIM that he was only so old and that He claimed to be before Abraham, then they wanted to stone HIM

He was not talking about anyone he was talking about his preexistence

God is never identified as I am that is a mistranslation in Exodus

[DRS]

You both make a good argument , But this is why i no longer trust the nt. Gods word cannot contradict itself and be Gods word.

So Solomon, David and Saul were not kings of Israel?

[ncusa]

And when the people rejected Him as king he allowed them to have another and prophesied that messiah would come through the kingly line.

When you state that messiah is God Almighty you make the word the prophecies mean nothing, you make the examples in the bible meaningless

I can back everything I believe with regards to Christianity and Jesus using examples, prefigurements and scriptures from the hebrew scriptures just as the writers of Matthew to Revelation doThe bible is most definetly filled with symbols and types, and they point to Christ, our redeemer. The OT says that God is our(Israel's) redeemer. We cannot have two redeemers. And the Psamist wrote that God was their ultimate King after the theocracy was done away with

[Angryamerican]

So Solomon, David and Saul were not kings of Israel?

Not sure what you are getting at but yeah they were kings of Israel.

[ncusa]

Earthly Kings you are debating in circles.So Solomon, David and Saul were not kings of Israel?OT history tells of how poor and pitiful the kings were, even at their best, that is why we have a heavenly king....as Jesus told Pilate my kingdom is not of this world. As I posted before, only God has the authority to forgive sins, Jesus forgave sins and healed. In Phillipians Paull writes that Jesus emptied Himself, voluntarily, of His divine attributes while on earth.

[DRS]

The bible is most definetly filled with symbols and types, and they point to Christ, our redeemer. The OT says that God is our(Israel's) redeemer. We cannot have two redeemers. And the Psamist wrote that God was their ultimate King after the theocracy was done away with

Actually in the Ot God raised up saviours, and they were called that, but even as they were called saviours the power to save actually came from God. So to with Jesus the ality to redeem comes from God, Jesus was the prophet that Moses foretold about whom God would raise up.

After the last enemy death is done away with what do we see in the scriptures

1 Corinthian 15:. 24*Next, the end, when he hands over the kingdom to his God and Father, when he has brought to nothing all government and all authority and power. 25*For he must rule as king until [God] has put all enemies under his feet.

[Angryamerican]

Have a good day i have to get some sleep heading out to North Carolina.

[ncusa]

He was not talking about anyone he was talking about his preexistence

God is never identified as I am that is a mistranslation in Exoduspreexistence as what? an angel? Lucifer's spirit brother? Or as the One through whom all things were created and by whom all things are held together?

[DRS]

Earthly Kings you are debating in circles.OT history tells of how poor and pitiful the kings were, even at their best, that is why we have a heavenly king....as Jesus told Pilate my kingdom is not of this world. As I posted before, only God has the authority to forgive sins, Jesus forgave sins and healed. In Phillipians Paull writes that Jesus emptied Himself, voluntarily, of His divine attributes while on earth.

Jesus aknowledged another gave him authorityto forgive sins who gives Almighty God authority?

4*And Jesus, knowing their thoughts, said: “Why are YOU thinking wicked things in YOUR hearts? 5*For instance, which is easier, to say, Your sins are forgiven, or to say, Get up and walk? 6*However, in order for YOU to know that the Son of man has authority on earth to forgive sins—” then he said to the paralytic: “Get up, pick up your bed, and go to your home.” 7*And he got up and went off to his home. 8*At the sight of this the crowds were struck with fear, and they glorified God, who gave such authority to men.


phillipians just shows the prophecy regarding messiah in Psalms to be true

[DRS]

preexistence as what? an angel? Lucifer's spirit brother? Or as the One through whom all things were created and by whom all things are held together?

through whom all things were created

(Proverbs 8:22-31) “Jehovah himself produced me as the beginning of his way, the earliest of his achievements of long ago. 23*From time indefinite I was installed, from the start, from times earlier than the earth. 24*When there were no watery deeps I was brought forth as with labor pains, when there were no springs heavily charged with water. 25*Before the mountains themselves had been settled down, ahead of the hills, I was brought forth as with labor pains, 26*when as yet he had not made the earth and the open spaces and the first part of the dust masses of the productive land. 27*When he prepared the heavens I was there; when he decreed a circle upon the face of the watery deep, 28*when he made firm the cloud masses above, when he caused the fountains of the watery deep to be strong, 29*when he set for the sea his decree that the waters themselves should not pass beyond his order, when he decreed the foundations of the earth, 30*then I came to be beside him as a master worker, and I came to be the one he was specially fond of day by day, I being glad before him all the time, 31*being glad at the productive land of his earth, and the things I was fond of were with the sons of men.

[DRS]

Have a good day i have to get some sleep heading out to North Carolina.

Have a good sleep and a safe trip

[DispensationalJim]

You both make a good argument , But this is why i no longer trust the nt. Gods word cannot contradict itself and be Gods word.

Hello, AA! Haven't spoken with you in awhile.

Please remember that there is a big difference between a contradiction and a change in "programs" or "dispensations."

I think we can agree that God never changes in His character and attributes, but He has chosen to use different means to deal with His people over the centuries. I could list some examples, but maybe you need to do a little digging yourself about the different ways God has dealt with man, especially in the OT.

[Ron Jon]

What does I am have to do with anything, the jews killed prophets beforeEx. 3:14 anyone?

[Ron Jon]

through whom all things were created

(Proverbs 8:22-31)Bringing up wisdom again? Was there ever a time that God was without wisdom?

[DRS]

Ex. 3:14 anyone?

Not an acurate translation, how can the words be i will in verse 12 and i am in verse 14

Our hebrew speaking friends have shown time and again that tI am is not how it is translated

[DRS]

Bringing up wisdom again? Was there ever a time that God was without wisdom?

As with other scriptures in the OT we see one thing symbolizing a person in the heavenly realm.

In this case we know it is Jesus being spoken of here and not the quality of wisdom because of the hand played in creation.

[ncusa]

And I do believe that in context it is speaking of wisdomAs with other scriptures in the OT we see one thing symbolizing a person in the heavenly realm.

In this case we know it is Jesus being spoken of here and not the quality of wisdom because of the hand played in creation.Zech 12:10 then they will Look on Me whom they have pierced

John 10:30 I and my Father are one....v. 33 you being a man make yourself God

John 5:18 they sought to stone Him because He said God was His Father making Himself equal with God

Rom 8:9-10

Phillipians 2:5-11 thought it not robbery to be equal with God....every knee shall bow on earth and in heaven...angels included / angels reserve worship for God

Heb 1:3 brightness of His Glory and the express image of His person

Heb 1:6 angels worship Him

Heb 1:8 But to the Son he says your throne O God is forever and ever

James 2:1 Jesus called the Lord of Glory

2 pt 1:1 of our God and Saviour

[ncusa]

Here is exodus 3:12-14Not an acurate translation, how can the words be i will in verse 12 and i am in verse 14

Our hebrew speaking friends have shown time and again that tI am is not how it is translated
12.

And God said, " I will be with you.http://media.salemwebnetwork.com/biblestudytools/skin/CCOM/Icon_CrossRef_wht_bg.gif And this will be the signhttp://media.salemwebnetwork.com/biblestudytools/skin/CCOM/Icon_CrossRef_wht_bg.gif to you that it is I who have sent you: When you have brought the people out of Egypt, youhttp://media.salemwebnetwork.com/biblestudytools/skin/CCOM/Icon_Footnotes_wht_bg.gif will worship God on this mountain.http://media.salemwebnetwork.com/biblestudytools/skin/CCOM/Icon_CrossRef_wht_bg.gif"


13.
Moses said to God, "Suppose I go to the Israelites and say to them, 'The God of your fathers has sent me to you,' and they ask me, 'What is His name?'http://media.salemwebnetwork.com/biblestudytools/skin/CCOM/Icon_CrossRef_wht_bg.gif Then what shall I tell them?"


14.
God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM.http://media.salemwebnetwork.com/biblestudytools/skin/CCOM/Icon_Footnotes_wht_bg.gif This is what you are to say to the Israelites: 'I AMhttp://media.salemwebnetwork.com/biblestudytools/skin/CCOM/Icon_CrossRef_wht_bg.gif has sent me to you

[Tucson Jim]

You both make a good argument , But this is why i no longer trust the nt. Gods word cannot contradict itself and be Gods word.

It doesn't.

[Poisonshady313]

Here is exodus 3:12-14
12.

And God said, " I will be with you.http://media.salemwebnetwork.com/biblestudytools/skin/CCOM/Icon_CrossRef_wht_bg.gif And this will be the signhttp://media.salemwebnetwork.com/biblestudytools/skin/CCOM/Icon_CrossRef_wht_bg.gif to you that it is I who have sent you: When you have brought the people out of Egypt, youhttp://media.salemwebnetwork.com/biblestudytools/skin/CCOM/Icon_Footnotes_wht_bg.gif will worship God on this mountain.http://media.salemwebnetwork.com/biblestudytools/skin/CCOM/Icon_CrossRef_wht_bg.gif"


13.
Moses said to God, "Suppose I go to the Israelites and say to them, 'The God of your fathers has sent me to you,' and they ask me, 'What is His name?'http://media.salemwebnetwork.com/biblestudytools/skin/CCOM/Icon_CrossRef_wht_bg.gif Then what shall I tell them?"


14.
God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM.http://media.salemwebnetwork.com/biblestudytools/skin/CCOM/Icon_Footnotes_wht_bg.gif This is what you are to say to the Israelites: 'I AMhttp://media.salemwebnetwork.com/biblestudytools/skin/CCOM/Icon_CrossRef_wht_bg.gif has sent me to you


You're using a poor translation.



12. And He said, "For I will be with you, and this is the sign for you that it was I Who sent you. When you take the people out of Egypt, you will worship God on this mountain."
13. And Moses said to God, "Behold I come to the children of Israel, and I say to them, 'The God of your fathers has sent me to you,' and they say to me, 'What is His name?' what shall I say to them?"
14. God said to Moses, "Ehyeh asher ehyeh (I will be what I will be)," and He said, "So shall you say to the children of Israel, 'Ehyeh (I will be) has sent me to you.'"

[Tucson Jim]

Bringing up wisdom again? Was there ever a time that God was without wisdom?

I think it's the only argument he can use here, despite the fact that he's been told better repeatedly.

[Poisonshady313]

And I do believe that in context it is speaking of wisdomZech 12:10 then they will Look on Me whom they have pierced


10. And I will pour out upon the house of David and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and supplications. And they shall look to me because of those who have been thrust through [with swords], and they shall mourn over it as one mourns over an only son and shall be in bitterness, therefore, as one is embittered over a firstborn son.

[ncusa]

1. A name that denotes what he is in himself (v. 14): I am that I am. This explains his name Jehovah, and signifies, (1.) That he is self-existent; he has his being of himself, and has no dependence upon any other: the greatest and best man in the world must say, By the grace of God I am what I am; but God says absolutely—and it is more than any creature, man or angel, can say—I am that I am.You're using a poor translation.



12. And He said, "For I will be with you, and this is the sign for you that it was I Who sent you. When you take the people out of Egypt, you will worship God on this mountain."
13. And Moses said to God, "Behold I come to the children of Israel, and I say to them, 'The God of your fathers has sent me to you,' and they say to me, 'What is His name?' what shall I say to them?"
14. God said to Moses, "Ehyeh asher ehyeh (I will be what I will be)," and He said, "So shall you say to the children of Israel, 'Ehyeh (I will be) has sent me to you.'"what is your translation? I will be what I will be and I am that I am both have the same meaning in context. God is saying don't worry about it I am what I am and that is all that I am

[Poisonshady313]

what is your translation? I will be what I will be and I am that I am both have the same meaning in context. God is saying don't worry about it I am what I am and that is all that I am

Eh... no. God is saying "I will be with you in this time of need, as I will be with you in other times of need"

It's grammar.... the words are different.


I'm using the Judaica Press Complete Tanach.

[Poisonshady313]

For what it's worth, here's what Wikipedia has to say...


I am that I am (Hebrew: אהיה אשר אהיה, pronounced Ehyeh asher ehyeh) is an incorrect English translation of the response God used in the Bible when Moses asked for his name (Exodus 3:14). It is one of the most famous verses in the Torah. Hayah means "existed" or "was" in Hebrew; "ehyeh" is the first person singular future form. Ehyeh asher ehyeh is generally interpreted to mean I am that I am (King James Bible and others), yet is most literally translated as "I-shall-be that I-shall-be."


Emphasis mine.

[ncusa]

10. And I will pour out upon the house of David and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and supplications. And they shall look to me because of those who have been thrust through [with swords], and they shall mourn over it as one mourns over an only son and shall be in bitterness, therefore, as one is embittered over a firstborn son.these two posts got jumbled...sorry

[ncusa]

For what it's worth, here's what Wikipedia has to say...


I am that I am (Hebrew: אהיה אשר אהיה, pronounced Ehyeh asher ehyeh) is an incorrect English translation of the response God used in the Bible when Moses asked for his name (Exodus 3:14). It is one of the most famous verses in the Torah. Hayah means "existed" or "was" in Hebrew; "ehyeh" is the first person singular future form. Ehyeh asher ehyeh is generally interpreted to mean I am that I am (King James Bible and others), yet is most literally translated as "I-shall-be that I-shall-be."


Emphasis mine.I shall be that I shall be and I am that I am both say that God is who HE is and that HE is all sufficient, needing no other and that HE is complete in HIMSELF.

[Tucson Jim]

For what it's worth, here's what Wikipedia has to say...


I am that I am (Hebrew: אהיה אשר אהיה, pronounced Ehyeh asher ehyeh) is an incorrect English translation of the response God used in the Bible when Moses asked for his name (Exodus 3:14). It is one of the most famous verses in the Torah. Hayah means "existed" or "was" in Hebrew; "ehyeh" is the first person singular future form. Ehyeh asher ehyeh is generally interpreted to mean I am that I am (King James Bible and others), yet is most literally translated as "I-shall-be that I-shall-be."


Emphasis mine.

Regardless of the translation of what Jesus said, it caused the Jews who heard it to pick up stones to stone Him. Why would they do that?

[DRS]

And I do believe that in context it is speaking of wisdomZech 12:10 then they will Look on Me whom they have pierced

John 10:30 I and my Father are one....v. 33 you being a man make yourself God

John 5:18 they sought to stone Him because He said God was His Father making Himself equal with God

Rom 8:9-10

Phillipians 2:5-11 thought it not robbery to be equal with God....every knee shall bow on earth and in heaven...angels included / angels reserve worship for God

Heb 1:3 brightness of His Glory and the express image of His person

Heb 1:6 angels worship Him

Heb 1:8 But to the Son he says your throne O God is forever and ever

James 2:1 Jesus called the Lord of Glory

2 pt 1:1 of our God and Saviour

Jesus also said his followers were one does that mean there is only one follower?

Jesus has someone he calls his God

Now is he has someone he calls his God then he can not be Almighty God

Who alone is the Most High God

Is Jesus the christ or is he God he can not be both

One anoints and the other is anointed

[Poisonshady313]

Regardless of the translation of what Jesus said, it caused the Jews who heard it to pick up stones to stone Him. Why would they do that?

You're asking me to explain the motives of events I don't believe took place in regards to individuals I don't necessarily believe existed, written about in a book I don't take seriously.


The sentence was written to make readers believe that traditional Jews hate Jesus, and exist for no other purpose to discredit Jesus... as if they didn't have their own lives to lead.

"Those horrible Jews... they wanted to stone Jesus... why would you believe anything they say?"

[DRS]

Regardless of the translation of what Jesus said, it caused the Jews who heard it to pick up stones to stone Him. Why would they do that?

They stones Stephen, Paul and they tries to stone Moses does this make them all God?

[CMike11]

Earthly Kings you are debating in circles.OT history tells of how poor and pitiful the kings were, even at their best, that is why we have a heavenly king....as Jesus told Pilate my kingdom is not of this world. As I posted before, only God has the authority to forgive sins, Jesus forgave sins and healed. In Phillipians Paull writes that Jesus emptied Himself, voluntarily, of His divine attributes while on earth.

David and Solomon were considered great kings. They were fallible, humans, and mortals though.

Solomon was known to have fantastic wisdom.

[Tucson Jim]

You're asking me to explain the motives of events I don't believe took place in regards to individuals I don't necessarily believe existed, written about in a book I don't take seriously.


The sentence was written to make readers believe that traditional Jews hate Jesus, and exist for no other purpose to discredit Jesus... as if they didn't have their own lives to lead.

"Those horrible Jews... they wanted to stone Jesus... why would you believe anything they say?"

Reminds me of the old saying: "Just because you're paranoid, it doesn't mean people aren't out to get you."

[Tucson Jim]

They stones Stephen, Paul and they tries to stone Moses does this make them all God?

You avoided the question, so I'll ask you: "Why did they try to stone Jesus".

[Poisonshady313]

Reminds me of the old saying: "Just because you're paranoid, it doesn't mean people aren't out to get you."

I've heard it from Christians that they believe Jews teach their children to hate Jesus, and that the writings of the Rabbis are no good because since they all rejected Jesus, their writings are designed to discredit Jesus.


I'm not making this stuff up.

[Angryamerican]

You avoided the question, so I'll ask you: "Why did they try to stone Jesus".

Because he said he was the son of God. Just like his followers said he was the son of God.

Joh 1:18 No one has seen God at any time; the Only-begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him.

Joh 1:34 And I saw and bore record that this is the Son of God.

Even satan had it right.

Mat 4:3 And when the tempter came to Him, he said, If You are the Son of God, command that these stones be made bread.

Imagine satan tempting God .

Mat 8:29 And behold, they cried out, saying, What have we to do with You, Jesus, Son of God? Have You come here to torment us before the time?

The bad angels had it right.

Mar 3:11 And unclean spirits, when they saw Him, they fell down before Him and cried, saying, You are the Son of God!

None of them say he is God.

And they even knew he was not God.

Mar 5:7 and cried with a loud voice, and said, What is to me and to You, Jesus, son of the Most High God? I adjure You by God not to torment me.

The deciples knew as well.

Luk 1:32 He shall be great and shall be called the Son of the Highest. And the Lord God shall give Him the throne of His father David.

Luk 3:38 son of of Enos, son of of Seth, son of of Adam, son of of God.

Why do they not call him God ?

Joh 6:69 And we have believed and have known that You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.

Why did the Jews want to kill him ?

Joh 19:7 The Jews answered him, We have a Law, and by our Law he ought to die, because he made himself the Son of God.

Act 9:20 And immediately he proclaimed Christ in the synagogues, that He is the Son of God.

He was sent how can that be if he is God ?

Rom 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh;

[Tucson Jim]

I've heard it from Christians that they believe Jews teach their children to hate Jesus, and that the writings of the Rabbis are no good because since they all rejected Jesus, their writings are designed to discredit Jesus.


I'm not making this stuff up.

Wow . . . :surprised:eh::eek:

No one I know has ever spoken like that. I thought you were overreacting.

[Tucson Jim]

Because he said he was the son of God. Just like his followers said he was the son of God.

Joh 1:18 No one has seen God at any time; the Only-begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him.

Joh 1:34 And I saw and bore record that this is the Son of God.

Even satan had it right.

Mat 4:3 And when the tempter came to Him, he said, If You are the Son of God, command that these stones be made bread.

Imagine satan tempting God .

Mat 8:29 And behold, they cried out, saying, What have we to do with You, Jesus, Son of God? Have You come here to torment us before the time?

The bad angels had it right.

Mar 3:11 And unclean spirits, when they saw Him, they fell down before Him and cried, saying, You are the Son of God!

None of them say he is God.

And they even knew he was not God.

Mar 5:7 and cried with a loud voice, and said, What is to me and to You, Jesus, son of the Most High God? I adjure You by God not to torment me.

The deciples knew as well.

Luk 1:32 He shall be great and shall be called the Son of the Highest. And the Lord God shall give Him the throne of His father David.

Luk 3:38 son of of Enos, son of of Seth, son of of Adam, son of of God.

Why do they not call him God ?

Joh 6:69 And we have believed and have known that You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.

Why did the Jews want to kill him ?

Joh 19:7 The Jews answered him, We have a Law, and by our Law he ought to die, because he made himself the Son of God.

Act 9:20 And immediately he proclaimed Christ in the synagogues, that He is the Son of God.

So then I guess the questions for you are these: What does it mean to be the Son of God? Why was this claim punishable by death? Why did Jesus tell the demons to tell no one? Aren't we all sons and daughters of God? What was the big deal?

He was sent how can that be if he is God ?

Rom 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh;

"Being sent" is no problem for a Triune Being, as we have tried to explain to you countless times. The One sent is just as much "God" as the one sending - if you happen to be a Triune God.

[Poisonshady313]

Wow . . . :surprised:eh::eek:

No one I know has ever spoken like that. I thought you were overreacting.

I thought they were over-reacting. Apparently, they really believe it... as if they believe Judaism started at about 200 AD for the express purpose of belittling Jesus.

[Tucson Jim]

I thought they were over-reacting. Apparently, they really believe it... as if they believe Judaism started at about 200 AD for the express purpose of belittling Jesus.

That's really sad.

I have attended several churches in my 27 years as a Christian and have never heard anyone speak like that, either from the pulpit, or in private, in any of those churches. It is certainly a minority view among Christians.

The Christians I know have nothing but high regard for the Jewish people and support the state of Israel.

I guess that's why I am constantly surprised at the hostility you seem to hold toward Christians. You corrected me, I know, it's only "slight annoyance" I think you said. But it seems like hostility to me.

But I guess if you heard Christians say hurtful things like you just described, I can understand your point of view a little better.

It's too bad that after these thousands of years, we still can't get along better.

[Harmonious]

That's really sad.

I have attended several churches in my 27 years as a Christian and have never heard anyone speak like that, either from the pulpit, or in private, in any of those churches. It is certainly a minority view among Christians.

The Christians I know have nothing but high regard for the Jewish people and support the state of Israel.

I guess that's why I am constantly surprised at the hostility you seem to hold toward Christians. You corrected me, I know, it's only "slight annoyance" I think you said. But it seems like hostility to me.

But I guess if you heard Christians say hurtful things like you just described, I can understand your point of view a little better.We've heard far worse. It can get scary out there. Honestly.

It's too bad that after these thousands of years, we still can't get along better.
Yeah, well... It happens.

[DispensationalJim]

We've heard far worse. It can get scary out there. Honestly.


Yeah, well... It happens.

I guess we're getting a little off topic, but in a thread this long, that's probably OK... we need a little "break" once in a while.

I wanted to add my experience regarding the Christians and Jews attitudes toward each other.

In 1996, I had the wonderful priviledge of traveling to Israel playing the trumpet with The Continentals, a Christian choral group and orchestra. During the tour, our Jewish guide (who said he had become a Christian) told us that many of the Jews and Muslims in Jerusalem were extremely suspicious of groups like ours because they were afraid we would try to blow up the Muslim "Dome of the Rock" so the Jewish Temple could be rebuilt in that spot in order to "bring in the Kingdom."

We were often accompanied by Jewish soldiers who we were told were there to protect us against terrorists. They were quite friendly with us and the Jewish "natives" treated us wonderfully (especially the store owners and employees ;)), and seemed to enjoy our programs.

Just thought you might find that interesting.

[hillplus]

I've heard it from Christians that they believe Jews teach their children to hate Jesus, and that the writings of the Rabbis are no good because since they all rejected Jesus, their writings are designed to discredit Jesus.


I'm not making this stuff up.

My Jewish neighbors told me that some other neighbors kids (born again) had told her kids that they were going to hell. I told her that they would be in good company, as the BA neighbors thought we were going there as well.
What the parents won't say to your face, the kids will. Thus, giving away what the parents think.

[Ron Jon]

As with other scriptures in the OT we see one thing symbolizing a person in the heavenly realm.

In this case we know it is Jesus being spoken of here and not the quality of wisdom because of the hand played in creation.Side-stepping the question I see. If, as you believe, Jesus (wisdom) was created, then that would mean there was a time when God was without wisdom. In John 1 we learn that Jesus is the incarnate word [Logos]. Was there ever a time that God was with His Word? I say "No!" The Word of God is as Eternal as God Himself because "the Word was God."

[Ron Jon]

You're asking me to explain the motives of events I don't believe took place in regards to individuals I don't necessarily believe existed, written about in a book I don't take seriously.

The sentence was written to make readers believe that traditional Jews hate Jesus, and exist for no other purpose to discredit Jesus... as if they didn't have their own lives to lead.

"Those horrible Jews... they wanted to stone Jesus... why would you believe anything they say?"They wanted to stone Jesus for blasphemy (because He claimed to be God). And yes, 2000 years later and you've proven the point that some Jews do hate Jesus.

[Poisonshady313]

They wanted to stone Jesus for blasphemy (because He claimed to be God). And yes, 2000 years later and you've proven the point that some Jews do hate Jesus.

I fail to see where what I said amounts to hate.

[ncusa]

They wanted to stone Jesus for blasphemy (because He claimed to be God). And yes, 2000 years later and you've proven the point that some Jews do hate Jesus.The events took place, they have historical veracity, the ppl lived, attested to by secular historians

[ncusa]

Judaism is the foundation of the Chrisitan Faith. Jesus was a Jew. Anti-semitism is wrong in all forms regardless who espouses it
That's really sad.

I have attended several churches in my 27 years as a Christian and have never heard anyone speak like that, either from the pulpit, or in private, in any of those churches. It is certainly a minority view among Christians.

The Christians I know have nothing but high regard for the Jewish people and support the state of Israel.

I guess that's why I am constantly surprised at the hostility you seem to hold toward Christians. You corrected me, I know, it's only "slight annoyance" I think you said. But it seems like hostility to me.

But I guess if you heard Christians say hurtful things like you just described, I can understand your point of view a little better.

It's too bad that after these thousands of years, we still can't get along better.

[ncusa]

David and Solomon were considered great kings. They were fallible, humans, and mortals though.

Solomon was known to have fantastic wisdom.And Solomon in his old age fell, David committed adultery, neglected his family, committed murder, but God still forgave them

[ncusa]

Is 9: 5. For a child has been born to us, a son given to us, and the authority is upon his shoulder, and the wondrous adviser, the mighty God, the everlasting Father, called his name, "the prince of peace

mighty God. el ghib-bore. mighty valiant strong powerful God
used elsewhere
Is 10:21 The remnant shall return, the remnant of Jacob, to the mighty God
Is 42:13 The Lord shall go out like a hero; like a warrior shall He arouse zeal; He shall shout, He shall even cry, He shall overpower His foes

Jerem 32:18 Who exercises loving- kindness to thousands and requites the iniquity of the fathers in the bosom of the children who follow them, O Great and Mighty God, the Lord of Hosts is His Name

Neh 9:32 And now, our God, the great, mighty, and awesome God, Who keeps the covenant and the loving- kindness, do not belittle all the travail that has befallen us, our kings, our princes, our priests, our prophets, our forefathers, and all Your people from the days of the kings of Assyria until this day.

Everlasting Father - owlam ab Time out of mind, perpetual, eternal
Ps 145:13 . Your kingdom is a kingdom of all times, and Your ruling is in every generation.

Jere 10:10 But the Lord God is true; He is a living God and the King of the world; from His anger the earth quakes, and the nations cannot contain His fury / 10 But the LORD is the true God;
he is the living God, the eternal King.
When he is angry, the earth trembles;
the nations cannot endure his wrath
God is the eternal King and Jesus is the King of Kings

[ncusa]

Is 7:14 Therefore, the Lord, of His own, shall give you a sign; behold, the young woman is with child, and she shall bear a son, and she shall call his name Immanuel./ Therefore the Lord Himself will give you a sign: Behold, the virgin shall conceive and bear a Son, and shall call His name Immanuel.


Mt 1: 20But after he had considered this, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream and said, "Joseph son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary home as your wife, because what is conceived in her is from the Holy Spirit. 21She will give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus,[a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%201:20-25;&version=31;#fen-NIV-23166a)] because he will save his people from their sins."
22All this took place to fulfill what the Lord had said through the prophet: 23"The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and they will call him Immanuel"[b (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%201:20-25;&version=31;#fen-NIV-23168b)]—which means, "God with us." 24When Joseph woke up, he did what the angel of the Lord had commanded him and took Mary home as his wife. 25But he had no union with her until she gave birth to a son. And he gave him the name Jesus.

[ncusa]

We've heard far worse. It can get scary out there. Honestly.


Yeah, well... It happens.There is hatred and mistrust from both sides and it is inexusable. The Hebrews (Jews) are the means through which Jehovah revealed HIMSELF to this dark world. We are all sinners "All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way" IS 53:6

PS 56:13 "For you have delivered me [a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=23&chapter=56&verse=13&version=31&context=verse#fen-NIV-14769a)] from death
and my feet from stumbling,
that I may walk before God
in the light of life"
Ps 118:27God is the LORD, which hath shewed us light: bind the sacrifice with cords, even unto the horns of the altar

"The Lord is God, and He gave us light. Bind the sacrifice with ropes until [it is brought to] the corners of the altar"

God is our Light and Jesus is the Light of the World.

Heb 1:6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.

7And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire. 8But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom

Jesus receives Worship. Worship is reserved for God.

[Poisonshady313]

Is 9: 5. For a child has been born to us, a son given to us, and the authority is upon his shoulder, and the wondrous adviser, the mighty God, the everlasting Father, called his name, "the prince of peace


The prince of peace is not God. God called the child prince of peace.

Jesus is not a king of anything, much less "King of Kings".

Only God is the King of Kings, and Jesus is not God.

[Poisonshady313]

Is 7:14 Therefore, the Lord, of His own, shall give you a sign; behold, the young woman is with child, and she shall bear a son, and she shall call his name Immanuel./ Therefore the Lord Himself will give you a sign: Behold, the virgin shall conceive and bear a Son, and shall call His name Immanuel.


Mt 1: 20But after he had considered this, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream and said, "Joseph son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary home as your wife, because what is conceived in her is from the Holy Spirit. 21She will give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus,[a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%201:20-25;&version=31;#fen-NIV-23166a)] because he will save his people from their sins."
22All this took place to fulfill what the Lord had said through the prophet: 23"The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and they will call him Immanuel"[b (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%201:20-25;&version=31;#fen-NIV-23168b)]—which means, "God with us." 24When Joseph woke up, he did what the angel of the Lord had commanded him and took Mary home as his wife. 25But he had no union with her until she gave birth to a son. And he gave him the name Jesus.

The young woman is with child. This prophecy was spoken at least 700 years before Jesus.

She shall call his name Immanuel. you yourself posted : And he gave him the name Jesus. This alone is a two-fold example of how this prophecy has nothing to do with Jesus.

Plus... the sign isn't the birth of the child... but what would happen regarding Rezin and Pekah before the child knew the difference between good and evil.

[ncusa]

The prince of peace is not God. God called the child prince of peace.

Jesus is not a king of anything, much less "King of Kings".

Only God is the King of Kings, and Jesus is not God. For to us a child is born,
to us a son is given,
and the government will be on his shoulders.
And he will be called
Wonderful Counselor, [a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Is%209:6&version=31#fen-NIV-17836a)] Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace

He is called Mighty God and Everlasting Father.

[ncusa]

And Abraham said, My son, God will provide himself a lamb for a burnt offering: so they went both of them together.

[ncusa]

Poisonshady are you looking for the Savior of Israel?

[Poisonshady313]

For to us a child is born,
to us a son is given,
and the government will be on his shoulders.
And he will be called
Wonderful Counselor, [a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Is%209:6&version=31#fen-NIV-17836a)] Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace

He is called Mighty God and Everlasting Father.

Is 9: 5. For a child has been born to us, a son given to us, and the authority is upon his shoulder, and the wondrous adviser, the mighty God, the everlasting Father, called his name, "the prince of peace

One of these things is not like the other.

[Poisonshady313]

And Abraham said, My son, God will provide himself a lamb for a burnt offering: so they went both of them together.

And that prophecy was fulfilled no more than 5 verses later.

A little bit of context goes a long way.

And a little bit of reading comprehension as well. I'm going to set aside the ridiculousness of calling Jesus a lamb, because I know you believe that Jesus is the "lamb of God". Was Jesus burned?

[Poisonshady313]

Poisonshady are you looking for the Savior of Israel?

No. God is the Savior of Israel. He's everywhere.

If you mean to ask me if I'm waiting for the Messiah (the word "savior" isn't the best choice.) then yes, I am waiting for the Messiah.

For clarity sake, because I know without a doubt that you're going to misread me... God is not the Messiah. The Messiah is not God.

God is the Savior, not the Messiah.

[CMike11]

For to us a child is born,
to us a son is given,
and the government will be on his shoulders.
And he will be called
Wonderful Counselor, [a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Is%209:6&version=31#fen-NIV-17836a)] Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace

He is called Mighty God and Everlasting Father.

Your translation is incorrect.

http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/15940/jewish/Chapter-9.htm

5. For a child has been born to us, a son given to us, and the authority is upon his shoulder, and the wondrous adviser, the mighty God, the everlasting Father, called his name, "the prince of peace."


Below is Rashi's commentary on it, to put it into context

For a child has been born to us Although Ahaz is wicked, his son who was born to him many years ago [nine years prior to his assuming the throne] to be our king in his stead, shall be a righteous man, and the authority of the Holy One, blessed be He, and His yoke shall be on his shoulder, for he shall engage in the Torah and observe the commandments, and he shall bend his shoulder to bear the burden of the Holy One, blessed be He.
and… called his name The Holy One, blessed be He, Who gives wondrous counsel, is a mighty God and an everlasting Father, called Hezekiah’s name, “the prince of peace,” since peace and truth will be in his days.

[CMike11]

And Solomon in his old age fell, David committed adultery, neglected his family, committed murder, but God still forgave them

At that time men could have multiple wives.

He didn't commit adultery.


They were great kings. They were human though.

[ncusa]

At that time men could have multiple wives.

He didn't commit adultery.


They were great kings. They were human though.David did commit adultery with Bathsheba although God in His grace forgave him

[ncusa]

No. God is the Savior of Israel. He's everywhere.

If you mean to ask me if I'm waiting for the Messiah (the word "savior" isn't the best choice.) then yes, I am waiting for the Messiah.

For clarity sake, because I know without a doubt that you're going to misread me... God is not the Messiah. The Messiah is not God.

God is the Savior, not the Messiah.don't presume to know that I will misread you. I have no reason to misread you, but I do wonder why you get so annoyed when your position is even slightly questioned.

[ncusa]

Your translation is incorrect.

http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/15940/jewish/Chapter-9.htm

5. For a child has been born to us, a son given to us, and the authority is upon his shoulder, and the wondrous adviser, the mighty God, the everlasting Father, called his name, "the prince of peace."


Below is Rashi's commentary on it, to put it into context

For a child has been born to us Although Ahaz is wicked, his son who was born to him many years ago [nine years prior to his assuming the throne] to be our king in his stead, shall be a righteous man, and the authority of the Holy One, blessed be He, and His yoke shall be on his shoulder, for he shall engage in the Torah and observe the commandments, and he shall bend his shoulder to bear the burden of the Holy One, blessed be He.
and… called his name The Holy One, blessed be He, Who gives wondrous counsel, is a mighty God and an everlasting Father, called Hezekiah’s name, “the prince of peace,” since peace and truth will be in his days.6For a (K (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=isaiah%209:1-10;&version=49;#cen-NASB-17836K))child will be born to us, a (L (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=isaiah%209:1-10;&version=49;#cen-NASB-17836L))son will be given to us;
And the (M (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=isaiah%209:1-10;&version=49;#cen-NASB-17836M))government will rest (N (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=isaiah%209:1-10;&version=49;#cen-NASB-17836N))on His shoulders;
And His name will be called (O (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=isaiah%209:1-10;&version=49;#cen-NASB-17836O))Wonderful Counselor, (P (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=isaiah%209:1-10;&version=49;#cen-NASB-17836P))Mighty God,
Eternal (Q (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=isaiah%209:1-10;&version=49;#cen-NASB-17836Q))Father, Prince of (R (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=isaiah%209:1-10;&version=49;#cen-NASB-17836R))Peace.
7There will be (S (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=isaiah%209:1-10;&version=49;#cen-NASB-17837S))no end to the increase of His government or of peace,
On the (T (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=isaiah%209:1-10;&version=49;#cen-NASB-17837T))throne of David and over his kingdom,
To establish it and to uphold it with (U (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=isaiah%209:1-10;&version=49;#cen-NASB-17837U))justice and righteousness
From then on and forevermore

Context-Hezekiah's reign ended, it was not established for evermore, and there is now no one sitting on David's throne.

[ncusa]

No. God is the Savior of Israel. He's everywhere.

If you mean to ask me if I'm waiting for the Messiah (the word "savior" isn't the best choice.) then yes, I am waiting for the Messiah.

For clarity sake, because I know without a doubt that you're going to misread me... God is not the Messiah. The Messiah is not God.

God is the Savior, not the Messiah.5"Behold, the (A (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=jeremiah%2023:5-10;&version=49;#cen-NASB-19490A))days are coming," declares the LORD,
"When I will raise up for David a righteous (B (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=jeremiah%2023:5-10;&version=49;#cen-NASB-19490B))Branch;
And He will (C (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=jeremiah%2023:5-10;&version=49;#cen-NASB-19490C))reign as king and act wisely
And (D (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=jeremiah%2023:5-10;&version=49;#cen-NASB-19490D))do justice and righteousness in the land.
6"In His days Judah will be saved,
And (E (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=jeremiah%2023:5-10;&version=49;#cen-NASB-19491E))Israel will dwell securely;
And this is His (F (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=jeremiah%2023:5-10;&version=49;#cen-NASB-19491F))name by which He will be called,
'The (G (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=jeremiah%2023:5-10;&version=49;#cen-NASB-19491G))LORD our righteousness.'
2"But as for (A (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=micah%205:2;&version=49;#cen-NASB-22636A))you, Bethlehem Ephrathah,
Too little to be among the clans of Judah,
From (B (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=micah%205:2;&version=49;#cen-NASB-22636B))you One will go forth for Me to be (C (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=micah%205:2;&version=49;#cen-NASB-22636C))ruler in Israel
His goings forth are (D (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=micah%205:2;&version=49;#cen-NASB-22636D))from long ago,
From the days of eternity

[ncusa]

And that prophecy was fulfilled no more than 5 verses later.

A little bit of context goes a long way.

And a little bit of reading comprehension as well. I'm going to set aside the ridiculousness of calling Jesus a lamb, because I know you believe that Jesus is the "lamb of God". Was Jesus burned? Symbols are just that symbols. Earthly types signify what is greater. and no Jesus was not burned. But He was slain on the Passover, innocent, blood sacrifice, atoning work.

[ncusa]

. Who would have believed our report, and to whom was the arm of the Lord revealed?
2. And he came up like a sapling before it, and like a root from dry ground, he had neither form nor comeliness; and we saw him that he had no appearance. Now shall we desire him?

3. Despised and rejected by men, a man of pains and accustomed to illness, and as one who hides his face from us, despised and we held him of no account.

4. Indeed, he bore our illnesses, and our pains-he carried them, yet we accounted him as plagued, smitten by God and oppressed.

5. But he was pained because of our transgressions, crushed because of our iniquities; the chastisement of our welfare was upon him, and with his wound we were healed.

6. We all went astray like sheep, we have turned, each one on his way, and the Lord accepted his prayers for the iniquity of all of us.

7. He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he would not open his mouth; like a lamb to the slaughter he would be brought, and like a ewe that is mute before her shearers, and he would not open his mouth.

8. From imprisonment and from judgment he is taken, and his generation who shall tell? For he was cut off from the land of the living; because of the transgression of my people, a plague befell them.

9. And he gave his grave to the wicked, and to the wealthy with his kinds of death, because he committed no violence, and there was no deceit in his mouth.

10. And the Lord wished to crush him, He made him ill; if his soul makes itself restitution, he shall see children, he shall prolong his days, and God's purpose shall prosper in his hand.

11. From the toil of his soul he would see, he would be satisfied; with his knowledge My servant would vindicate the just for many, and their iniquities he would bear.

12. Therefore, I will allot him a portion in public, and with the strong he shall share plunder, because he poured out his soul to death, and with transgressors he was counted; and he bore the sin of many, and interceded for the transgressors

[Poisonshady313]

Symbols are just that symbols. Earthly types signify what is greater. and no Jesus was not burned. I'll take that as an admission that your usage of the story of the binding of Isaac was improper.

But He was slain on the Passover, Was he? 3 out of 4 gospels say he was killed afterward.

innocent,Jesus' innocence is questionable.

blood sacrifice, Human sacrifice is an abomination. atoning work.

Human sacrifice is an abomination.

But you talk of symbols... so you say Jesus was a lamb.

Lambs were not generally used for atonement. Perhaps in the case of the nazarite who came to the end of his vow....


But when you try to make Jesus fit into the whole "passover lamb" thing.... the passover lamb was NOT a sin atonement offering.

And it was roasted. Nobody ever roasted Jesus.

[Poisonshady313]

. Who would have believed our report, and to whom was the arm of the Lord revealed?
2. And he came up like a sapling before it, and like a root from dry ground, he had neither form nor comeliness; and we saw him that he had no appearance. Now shall we desire him?

3. Despised and rejected by men, a man of pains and accustomed to illness, and as one who hides his face from us, despised and we held him of no account.

4. Indeed, he bore our illnesses, and our pains-he carried them, yet we accounted him as plagued, smitten by God and oppressed.

5. But he was pained because of our transgressions, crushed because of our iniquities; the chastisement of our welfare was upon him, and with his wound we were healed.

6. We all went astray like sheep, we have turned, each one on his way, and the Lord accepted his prayers for the iniquity of all of us.

7. He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he would not open his mouth; like a lamb to the slaughter he would be brought, and like a ewe that is mute before her shearers, and he would not open his mouth.

8. From imprisonment and from judgment he is taken, and his generation who shall tell? For he was cut off from the land of the living; because of the transgression of my people, a plague befell them.

9. And he gave his grave to the wicked, and to the wealthy with his kinds of death, because he committed no violence, and there was no deceit in his mouth.

10. And the Lord wished to crush him, He made him ill; if his soul makes itself restitution, he shall see children, he shall prolong his days, and God's purpose shall prosper in his hand.

11. From the toil of his soul he would see, he would be satisfied; with his knowledge My servant would vindicate the just for many, and their iniquities he would bear.

12. Therefore, I will allot him a portion in public, and with the strong he shall share plunder, because he poured out his soul to death, and with transgressors he was counted; and he bore the sin of many, and interceded for the transgressors

This has been dealt with so many times in this forum, I'm not even going to respond to this.

Search for the threads on hannity about Isaiah 53, and read what has already been said.

[Poisonshady313]

5"Behold, the (A (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=jeremiah%2023:5-10;&version=49;#cen-NASB-19490A))days are coming," declares the LORD,
"When I will raise up for David a righteous (B (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=jeremiah%2023:5-10;&version=49;#cen-NASB-19490B))Branch;
And He will (C (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=jeremiah%2023:5-10;&version=49;#cen-NASB-19490C))reign as king and act wisely
And (D (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=jeremiah%2023:5-10;&version=49;#cen-NASB-19490D))do justice and righteousness in the land.
6"In His days Judah will be saved,
And (E (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=jeremiah%2023:5-10;&version=49;#cen-NASB-19491E))Israel will dwell securely;
And this is His (F (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=jeremiah%2023:5-10;&version=49;#cen-NASB-19491F))name by which He will be called,
'The (G (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=jeremiah%2023:5-10;&version=49;#cen-NASB-19491G))LORD our righteousness.'
2"But as for (A (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=micah%205:2;&version=49;#cen-NASB-22636A))you, Bethlehem Ephrathah,
Too little to be among the clans of Judah,
From (B (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=micah%205:2;&version=49;#cen-NASB-22636B))you One will go forth for Me to be (C (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=micah%205:2;&version=49;#cen-NASB-22636C))ruler in Israel
His goings forth are (D (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=micah%205:2;&version=49;#cen-NASB-22636D))from long ago,
From the days of eternity

Sometimes a name is just a name.

Samu-EL
Isra-EL
Immanu-EL
Micha-EL
Rafa-EL
Gabri-EL
EL-ija
EL-iezer
EL-isha

[CMike11]

6For a (K (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=isaiah%209:1-10;&version=49;#cen-NASB-17836K))child will be born to us, a (L (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=isaiah%209:1-10;&version=49;#cen-NASB-17836L))son will be given to us;
And the (M (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=isaiah%209:1-10;&version=49;#cen-NASB-17836M))government will rest (N (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=isaiah%209:1-10;&version=49;#cen-NASB-17836N))on His shoulders;
And His name will be called (O (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=isaiah%209:1-10;&version=49;#cen-NASB-17836O))Wonderful Counselor, (P (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=isaiah%209:1-10;&version=49;#cen-NASB-17836P))Mighty God,
Eternal (Q (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=isaiah%209:1-10;&version=49;#cen-NASB-17836Q))Father, Prince of (R (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=isaiah%209:1-10;&version=49;#cen-NASB-17836R))Peace.
7There will be (S (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=isaiah%209:1-10;&version=49;#cen-NASB-17837S))no end to the increase of His government or of peace,
On the (T (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=isaiah%209:1-10;&version=49;#cen-NASB-17837T))throne of David and over his kingdom,
To establish it and to uphold it with (U (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=isaiah%209:1-10;&version=49;#cen-NASB-17837U))justice and righteousness
From then on and forevermore

Context-Hezekiah's reign ended, it was not established for evermore, and there is now no one sitting on David's throne.

Why is this complicated, the prophesy is that even though Aziz, was a wicked dude, his son Hezekiah, will be a good guy, who will follow the Torah.

It is saying that G-D, will come him "prince of peace".

Rashi

For a child has been born to us Although Ahaz is wicked, his son who was born to him many years ago [nine years prior to his assuming the throne] to be our king in his stead, shall be a righteous man, and the authority of the Holy One, blessed be He, and His yoke shall be on his shoulder, for he shall engage in the Torah and observe the commandments, and he shall bend his shoulder to bear the burden of the Holy One, blessed be He.
and… called his name The Holy One, blessed be He, Who gives wondrous counsel, is a mighty God and an everlasting Father, called Hezekiah’s name, “the prince of peace,” since peace and truth will be in his days.

[CMike11]

. Who would have believed our report, and to whom was the arm of the Lord revealed?
2. And he came up like a sapling before it, and like a root from dry ground, he had neither form nor comeliness; and we saw him that he had no appearance. Now shall we desire him?

3. Despised and rejected by men, a man of pains and accustomed to illness, and as one who hides his face from us, despised and we held him of no account.

4. Indeed, he bore our illnesses, and our pains-he carried them, yet we accounted him as plagued, smitten by God and oppressed.

5. But he was pained because of our transgressions, crushed because of our iniquities; the chastisement of our welfare was upon him, and with his wound we were healed.

6. We all went astray like sheep, we have turned, each one on his way, and the Lord accepted his prayers for the iniquity of all of us.

7. He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he would not open his mouth; like a lamb to the slaughter he would be brought, and like a ewe that is mute before her shearers, and he would not open his mouth.

8. From imprisonment and from judgment he is taken, and his generation who shall tell? For he was cut off from the land of the living; because of the transgression of my people, a plague befell them.

9. And he gave his grave to the wicked, and to the wealthy with his kinds of death, because he committed no violence, and there was no deceit in his mouth.

10. And the Lord wished to crush him, He made him ill; if his soul makes itself restitution, he shall see children, he shall prolong his days, and God's purpose shall prosper in his hand.

11. From the toil of his soul he would see, he would be satisfied; with his knowledge My servant would vindicate the just for many, and their iniquities he would bear.

12. Therefore, I will allot him a portion in public, and with the strong he shall share plunder, because he poured out his soul to death, and with transgressors he was counted; and he bore the sin of many, and interceded for the transgressors

It's a shame Israel had to go through all that, huh?

[CMike11]

From then on and forevermore

Context-Hezekiah's reign ended, it was not established for evermore, and there is now no one sitting on David's throne.

Says who?

[Poisonshady313]

6For a (K (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=isaiah%209:1-10;&version=49;#cen-NASB-17836K))child will be born to us, a (L (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=isaiah%209:1-10;&version=49;#cen-NASB-17836L))son will be given to us;
And the (M (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=isaiah%209:1-10;&version=49;#cen-NASB-17836M))government will rest (N (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=isaiah%209:1-10;&version=49;#cen-NASB-17836N))on His shoulders;
And His name will be called (O (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=isaiah%209:1-10;&version=49;#cen-NASB-17836O))Wonderful Counselor, (P (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=isaiah%209:1-10;&version=49;#cen-NASB-17836P))Mighty God,
Eternal (Q (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=isaiah%209:1-10;&version=49;#cen-NASB-17836Q))Father, Prince of (R (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=isaiah%209:1-10;&version=49;#cen-NASB-17836R))Peace.
7There will be (S (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=isaiah%209:1-10;&version=49;#cen-NASB-17837S))no end to the increase of His government or of peace,
On the (T (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=isaiah%209:1-10;&version=49;#cen-NASB-17837T))throne of David and over his kingdom,
To establish it and to uphold it with (U (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=isaiah%209:1-10;&version=49;#cen-NASB-17837U))justice and righteousness
From then on and forevermore

Context-Hezekiah's reign ended, it was not established for evermore, and there is now no one sitting on David's throne.

There are still descendants of David qualified to sit on the throne. And the Messiah will be a descendant of David. One might have thought that because of the wickedness of Ahaz that the blessing of the messianic heritage would be ripped away from him and his descendants... from the throne of David... yet Hezekiah's righteousness merited the preservation of the prominence of David's throne.

[DRS]

Side-stepping the question I see. If, as you believe, Jesus (wisdom) was created, then that would mean there was a time when God was without wisdom. In John 1 we learn that Jesus is the incarnate word [Logos]. Was there ever a time that God was with His Word? I say "No!" The Word of God is as Eternal as God Himself because "the Word was God."

No it means there was a time was without Jesus

No John shows in the beginning Jesus was with God Proverbs says Jesus was the beginning of His ways

Hence Jesus was with God in the beginning in both cases as Jesus is the beginning of creation Revelation 3:14

[DRS]

You avoided the question, so I'll ask you: "Why did they try to stone Jesus".

For the same reason they tried to stone other servents of God, their own rebellious course

[Tucson Jim]

My Jewish neighbors told me that some other neighbors kids (born again) had told her kids that they were going to hell. I told her that they would be in good company, as the BA neighbors thought we were going there as well.
What the parents won't say to your face, the kids will. Thus, giving away what the parents think.

Painting with kind of a broad brush aren't we? The term "Born again" is embraced by many Protestants and even some Catholics. Which groups, specifically, are you maligning here?

[Tucson Jim]

For the same reason they tried to stone other servents of God, their own rebellious course

So, no particular reason, just 'cause they were rebels huh?

Okey dokey . . .

[Koushi Shinigami]

Painting with kind of a broad brush aren't we? The term "Born again" is embraced by many Protestants and even some Catholics. Which groups, specifically, are you maligning here?

Being as he didn't specify a single group, I don't see where he's maligning ANY group. Would you be less offended had he said "Christian children" instead of "Born Again children"?

[hillplus]

Painting with kind of a broad brush aren't we? The term "Born again" is embraced by many Protestants and even some Catholics. Which groups, specifically, are you maligning here?

I have no idea. The term they used was "Born again Christians" I think they also used the term "Non- denominational"

I don't for one minute believe that ALL Christians believe this, but MANY do even though they may not say it out loud.

Should I clean up an actual experience that I had so as not to offend? IF you don't believe this about Jews, then it is not directed at you.

[drmilo]

Not an acurate translation, how can the words be i will in verse 12 and i am in verse 14

Our hebrew speaking friends have shown time and again that tI am is not how it is translated

If "I am" is a poor translation (the reason it is a poor translation is that there is no "I am" in Hebrew, as I remember our hebrew speaking frineds telling us) and if Jesus was speaking hebrew (and there is no reason to believe he wasn't since he was speaking to the Pharisees in that passage) then what Jesus said was not "I am" either. The point is, what Jesus said, regardless of how it is translated, was the same as God said to Moses in Ex 3:14 -- the same exact Hebrew words, since there are no Hebrew words that translate to "I am." So, if we translate Ex 3:14 to "I will be" then we should translate Jesus comments as "I will be."

Jesus used the name God gave Moses, translated in Greek to ego eimi (the same translation Jewish Rabiis used the Septuagint when translating Ex 3:14.), to tell the people who sent him.

[drmilo]

As with other scriptures in the OT we see one thing symbolizing a person in the heavenly realm.

In this case we know it is Jesus being spoken of here and not the quality of wisdom because of the hand played in creation.

God's actual wisdom had no hand in creation? God's wisdom would be eternal, just as God is. And when God used his wisdom, then he would "bring it forth" (as said in proverbs.) That doesn't show wisdom's beginning -- just wisdom's first usage. If this wisdom is Jesus, then Jesus, just like God's wisdom, must be eternal, and was merely "brought forth" to do his "job" as it were.

I don't know what translation you used, DRS, but this is what my bible says:

22 The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old.
23 I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was.
24 When there were no depths, I was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water.
25 Before the mountains were settled, before the hills was I brought forth:
26 While as yet he had not made the earth, nor the fields, nor the highest part of the dust of the world.
27 When he prepared the heavens, I was there: when he set a compass upon the face of the depth:
28 When he established the clouds above: when he strengthened the fountains of the deep:
29 When he gave to the sea his decree, that the waters should not pass his commandment: when he appointed the foundations of the earth:
30 Then I was by him, as one brought up with him: and I was daily his delight, rejoicing always before him;
31 Rejoicing in the habitable part of his earth; and my delights were with the sons of men.

Not "produced me" but "possessed me" from the beginning (meaning wisdom always was) and "brought forth" as in "called into service" not created.

[DRS]

If "I am" is a poor translation (the reason it is a poor translation is that there is no "I am" in Hebrew, as I remember our hebrew speaking frineds telling us) and if Jesus was speaking hebrew (and there is no reason to believe he wasn't since he was speaking to the Pharisees in that passage) then what Jesus said was not "I am" either. The point is, what Jesus said, regardless of how it is translated, was the same as God said to Moses in Ex 3:14 -- the same exact Hebrew words, since there are no Hebrew words that translate to "I am." So, if we translate Ex 3:14 to "I will be" then we should translate Jesus comments as "I will be."

Jesus used the name God gave Moses, translated in Greek to ego eimi (the same translation Jewish Rabiis used the Septuagint when translating Ex 3:14.), to tell the people who sent him.


No actually Jesus was talking about his pre existence so he would not have I will be it would have been a past tense word, hence you see in differentnslations as follows

1869: “From before Abraham was, I have been.” The New Testament, by G.*R.*Noyes.

1935: “I existed before Abraham was born!” The Bible—An American Translation, by J.*M.*P.*Smith and E.*J.*Goodspeed.


1965: “Before Abraham was born, I was already the one that I am.” Das Neue Testament, by Jörg Zink.

1981: “I was alive before Abraham was born!” The Simple English Bible.

1984: “Before Abraham came into existence, I have been.” New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures.

[DRS]

God's actual wisdom had no hand in creation? God's wisdom would be eternal, just as God is. And when God used his wisdom, then he would "bring it forth" (as said in proverbs.) That doesn't show wisdom's beginning -- just wisdom's first usage. If this wisdom is Jesus, then Jesus, just like God's wisdom, must be eternal, and was merely "brought forth" to do his "job" as it were.

I don't know what translation you used, DRS, but this is what my bible says:

22 The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old.
23 I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was.
24 When there were no depths, I was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water.
25 Before the mountains were settled, before the hills was I brought forth:
26 While as yet he had not made the earth, nor the fields, nor the highest part of the dust of the world.
27 When he prepared the heavens, I was there: when he set a compass upon the face of the depth:
28 When he established the clouds above: when he strengthened the fountains of the deep:
29 When he gave to the sea his decree, that the waters should not pass his commandment: when he appointed the foundations of the earth:
30 Then I was by him, as one brought up with him: and I was daily his delight, rejoicing always before him;
31 Rejoicing in the habitable part of his earth; and my delights were with the sons of men.

Not "produced me" but "possessed me" from the beginning (meaning wisdom always was) and "brought forth" as in "called into service" not created.

Actually the Hebrew is acquired, so if you take it to literally mean wisdom then you believe there was a time when God was without wisdom

Can you tell me how he came to be fond of wisdom and wisdom before him, when John 1:1 says that Jesus was towards God and Jesus prayed to be alongside God as he had been previously.

If you notice also in the NASB with regards to creations they are called possessions

Pslam 104:24O LORD, how (A)many are Your works!
In (B)wisdom You have made them all;
The (C)earth is full of Your [a]possessions

[ncusa]

There are still descendants of David qualified to sit on the throne. And the Messiah will be a descendant of David. One might have thought that because of the wickedness of Ahaz that the blessing of the messianic heritage would be ripped away from him and his descendants... from the throne of David... yet Hezekiah's righteousness merited the preservation of the prominence of David's throne.Actually in many places God says it is in spite of the Kings that HE would preserve the line.

[ncusa]

There are still descendants of David qualified to sit on the throne. And the Messiah will be a descendant of David. One might have thought that because of the wickedness of Ahaz that the blessing of the messianic heritage would be ripped away from him and his descendants... from the throne of David... yet Hezekiah's righteousness merited the preservation of the prominence of David's throne.The Messiah is a descendant of David, we both agree, and is often called a branch of David-out of the root of Jesse. Who is this referring to?

Jeremiah 23:5-6 Behold, days are coming, says the Lord, when I will set up of David a righteous shoot, and he shall reign a king and prosper, and he shall perform judgment and righteousness in the land.
6. In his days, Judah shall be saved and Israel shall dwell safely, and this is his name that he shall be called, The Lord is our righteousness

[ncusa]

Says who?Who is sitting on David's throne right now?

[ncusa]

I'll take that as an admission that your usage of the story of the binding of Isaac was improper.

Was he? 3 out of 4 gospels say he was killed afterward.

Jesus' innocence is questionable.

Human sacrifice is an abomination.

Human sacrifice is an abomination.

But you talk of symbols... so you say Jesus was a lamb.

Lambs were not generally used for atonement. Perhaps in the case of the nazarite who came to the end of his vow....


But when you try to make Jesus fit into the whole "passover lamb" thing.... the passover lamb was NOT a sin atonement offering.

And it was roasted. Nobody ever roasted Jesus.Jesus was bound. And as stated before no symbol is perfect.

[drmilo]

Actually the Hebrew is acquired, so if you take it to literally mean wisdom then you believe there was a time when God was without wisdom

No. The Wisdom of God is as eternal as God is.

Can you tell me how he came to be fond of wisdom and wisdom before him, when John 1:1 says that Jesus was towards God and Jesus prayed to be alongside God as he had been previously.

Simple -- if I take your interpretation that Wisdom = Jesus in that verse (which I don't) -- two persons, One God. God the Father is fond of His Son. I don't see the problem when thinking of God as a triune being.

If you notice also in the NASB with regards to creations they are called possessions

Pslam 104:24O LORD, how (A)many are Your works!
In (B)wisdom You have made them all;
The (C)earth is full of Your [a]possessions

Sure, all creations of God are possessions of God. That does not mean that all possessions of God are creations of God. God has wisdom, understanding, compassion, love, etc ... all part of personal attributes of God -- are the personal attributes of God creations? No. Are they possessions? Yes.

[DRS]

So then the wisdom being spoke of here is Jesus just as your early church fathers believed

Jesus then is created since this was acquired or brought forth.

You know the funny thing with this thread for the most part all the trinitarians are doing is arguing Jesus is God, at best you are arguing dualism and duality

If Jehovah is most high then there is only one most high God

If you say He is not then you are contradicting scripture

[2cor521]

In John 8:24 Jesus said, “Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am He, you will die in your sins.”



In Luke 23:42 he says, “Jesus, remember me when You come in Your kingdom.” Since only God could have a kingdom beyond this world, he must have believed Jesus was God.


John 5:18 says they sought the death penalty against Jesus, charging Him with blasphemy “because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.” John 10:36-39 also speaks of this and is proven by their wanting to “seize” Him. In Matthew 22:41-46, He answers the question of the Pharisees concerning His authority. Jesus' authority is His own because He is God. In Matthew 26:65, the Pharisees concluded He was a blasphemer, proving they understood His claim of being God.



John 10:30, "I and the Father are one"

[DRS]

Who was the he that Jesus say he was

28*Therefore Jesus said: “When once YOU have lifted up the Son of man, then YOU will know that I am [he], and that I do nothing of my own initiative; but just as the Father taught me I speak these things. 29*And he that sent me is with me; he did not abandon me to myself, because I always do the things pleasing to him.” 30*As he was speaking these things, many put faith in him

And what was said when he was lifted up

54*But the army officer and those with him watching over Jesus, when they saw the earthquake and the things happening, grew very much afraid, saying: “Certainly this was God’s Son

So question since those who are in the covenent with Christ are going to be joint rulers with him in his kingdom does this make them God too?

And what did Jesus say about the charge?

31*Once more the Jews lifted up stones to stone him. 32*Jesus replied to them: “I displayed to YOU many fine works from the Father. For which of those works are YOU stoning me?” 33*The Jews answered him: “We are stoning you, not for a fine work, but for blasphemy, even because you, although being a man, make yourself a god.” 34*Jesus answered them: “Is it not written in your Law, ‘I said: “YOU are gods”’? 35*If he called ‘gods’ those against whom the word of God came, and yet the Scripture cannot be nullified, 36*do YOU say to me whom the Father sanctified and dispatched into the world, ‘You blaspheme,’ because I said, I am God’s Son? 37*If I am not doing the works of my Father, do not believe me

[Jewell]

I see one God here, but three persons. Father, Son and Holy Spirit.


The bible doesn't say a thing about 'three persons' ralittlefield. Respectfully....it seems so contradictorial to say that. Where do you see that in the WORD of God?

[Poisonshady313]

Actually in many places God says it is in spite of the Kings that HE would preserve the line.

In spite of what wrong any of the kings might do.

Hezekiah was a particularly righteous king.

[ncusa]

I thought they were over-reacting. Apparently, they really believe it... as if they believe Judaism started at about 200 AD for the express purpose of belittling Jesus.Whoever believes that is foolish. Christianity's central figure is a Jew, first converts were jews, writers of the new testament were jews, first missionaries were jews....etc.

I belong to the peculiar Jewish sect called Christians.:hug:

[Poisonshady313]

The Messiah is a descendant of David, we both agree, and is often called a branch of David-out of the root of Jesse. Who is this referring to?

Jeremiah 23:5-6 Behold, days are coming, says the Lord, when I will set up of David a righteous shoot, and he shall reign a king and prosper, and he shall perform judgment and righteousness in the land.
6. In his days, Judah shall be saved and Israel shall dwell safely, and this is his name that he shall be called, The Lord is our righteousness

The man (not God) who will be the Messiah.

Sometimes a name is just a name. (I already posted this before)

Samu-EL
Micha-EL
Ezeki-EL
Isra-EL
Immanu-EL
EL-ijah
EL-isha
EL-iezer

All these names contain the word "God"... God is this, or something of God... would you say that all people named Michael are God?

[ncusa]

In spite of what wrong any of the kings might do.

Hezekiah was a particularly righteous king.Hezekiah was a righteous King and even in his goodness his pride was lifted up "
16 Then Isaiah said to Hezekiah, "Hear the word of the LORD : 17 The time will surely come when everything in your palace, and all that your fathers have stored up until this day, will be carried off to Babylon. Nothing will be left, says the LORD. 18 And some of your descendants, your own flesh and blood, that will be born to you, will be taken away, and they will become eunuchs in the palace of the king of Babylon"

[Poisonshady313]

Jesus was bound. And as stated before no symbol is perfect.

It's not a symbol... and if it is a symbol, it certainly has nothing to do with Jesus.

It's like saying a stop sign is a symbol for fruit because it's red, and (some) apples are red.


One very remote similarity does not make one thing a symbol of another.

[ncusa]

The man (not God) who will be the Messiah.

Sometimes a name is just a name. (I already posted this before)

Samu-EL
Micha-EL
Ezeki-EL
Isra-EL
Immanu-EL
EL-ijah
EL-isha
EL-iezer

All these names contain the word "God"... God is this, or something of God... would you say that all people named Michael are God?all names containing the word El are not God or gods....that is an absurd argument, but the text says that He shall be called Jehovah-tsidkenu.
Names do mean something in the biblical text howere. Off the top of my head Samuel means heard by the LORD, or heard of the LORD, in response to Hannah's prayer being answered. God changed Abram's name to Abraham. Jacob's name to Israel and so forth. The names in ancient times conveyed more to the story and about the person than do our often times generic English names.

[Poisonshady313]

I belong to the peculiar Jewish sect called Christians.:hug:

Christianity is as much a sect of Judaism as Islam is a sect of Christianity.

[ncusa]

It's not a symbol... and if it is a symbol, it certainly has nothing to do with Jesus.

It's like saying a stop sign is a symbol for fruit because it's red, and (some) apples are red.


One very remote similarity does not make one thing a symbol of another.Bound by relatives, lead up a mountain, sacrificial, child of promise. These are minor similarities and circumstantial evidence of course you are right.

[Poisonshady313]

all names containing the word El are not God or gods....that is an absurd argument, but the text says that He shall be called Jehovah-tsidkenu.
Names do mean something in the biblical text howere. Off the top of my head Samuel means heard by the LORD, or heard of the LORD, in response to Hannah's prayer being answered. God changed Abram's name to Abraham. Jacob's name to Israel and so forth. The names in ancient times conveyed more to the story and about the person than do our often times generic English names.

That's my point. Just because a name contains the word God doesn't mean the person is God... hence, as you put it, it is an absurd argument to suggest that the person named YHVH-tsidkenu must be God.

[ncusa]

Christianity is as much a sect of Judaism as Islam is a sect of Christianity.Christianty sprang from the historical religion of Judaism. Islam and Christianity, and for that matter Judaism at best have superficial likeness.

[Poisonshady313]

Bound by relatives, lead up a mountain, sacrificial, child of promise. These are minor similarities and circumstantial evidence of course you are right.

Um... all you've got is bound (not by relatives), and led up a mountain.

Heck... that could very well describe a passenger in a car going camping... bound (by seat belt) and being led up a mountain.

[ncusa]

That's my point. Just because a name contains the word God doesn't mean the person is God... hence, as you put it, it is an absurd argument to suggest that the person named YHVH-tsidkenu must be God.Jehovah is not the given name of GOD as we understand it? So holy that Hebrews for centuries refused to say it for fear of blasphemy? And Jehovah is not the word "GOD". there are many generic forms of the word that could be and often were used in the scriptures, but only Yahweh(JEhovah) is LORD

[ncusa]

Um... all you've got is bound (not by relatives), and led up a mountain.

Heck... that could very well describe a passenger in a car going camping... bound (by seat belt) and being led up a mountain.Jews were not His relatives? and there is no mention of a car or seatbelts in the Scriptures.

[Poisonshady313]

Christianty sprang from the historical religion of Judaism.

So did worship of the golden calf. 3,000 people were executed for that.

So did worship of Baal. They were wiped out in a plague.

[ncusa]

23This Jesus, when delivered up according to the definite and fixed purpose and settled plan and foreknowledge of God, you crucified and put out of the way [killing Him] by the hands of lawless and wicked men.

24[But] God raised Him up, liberating Him from the pangs of death, seeing that it was not possible for Him to continue to be controlled or retained by it.
25For David says in regard to Him, I saw the Lord constantly before me, for He is at my right hand that I may not be shaken or overthrown or cast down [from my secure and happy state].
26Therefore my heart rejoiced and my tongue exulted exceedingly; moreover, my flesh also will dwell in hope [will encamp, pitch its tent, and dwell in hope in anticipation of the resurrection].
27For You will not abandon my soul, leaving it helpless in Hades (the state of departed spirits), nor let Your Holy One know decay or see destruction [of the body after death].
28You have made known to me the ways of life; You will enrapture me [diffusing my soul with joy] with and in Your presence.(B (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=acts%202;&version=45;#cen-AMP-26976B))
29Brethren, it is permitted me to tell you confidently and with freedom concerning the patriarch David that he both died and was buried, and his tomb is with us to this day.
30Being however a prophet, and knowing that God had sealed to him with an oath that He would set one of his descendants on his throne, [II Sam. 7:12-16; Ps. 132:11.]
31He, foreseeing this, spoke [by foreknowledge] of the resurrection of the Christ (the Messiah) that He was not deserted [in death] and left in Hades (the state of departed spirits), nor did His body know decay or see destruction.(C (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=acts%202;&version=45;#cen-AMP-26979C)) 32This Jesus God raised up, and of that all we [His disciples] are witnesses

[Poisonshady313]

Jews were not His relatives? and there is no mention of a car or seatbelts in the Scriptures.

I'm talking about how arbitrary you apply the word "bound".... it's just as effective to say that someone today might be "bound" by a seatbelt and in that way, fit the description.


And the Jews didn't bind Jesus and lead him up the mountain. The Romans did that.

[Poisonshady313]

Jehovah is not the given name of GOD as we understand it? So holy that Hebrews for centuries refused to say it for fear of blasphemy? And Jehovah is not the word "GOD". there are many generic forms of the word that could be and often were used in the scriptures, but only Yahweh(JEhovah) is LORD

again... it's just a name.

[ncusa]

So did worship of the golden calf. 3,000 people were executed for that.

So did worship of Baal. They were wiped out in a plague.Baal worship is not a part of judaism, and judaism as understood by the Mosaic covenant did not quite exist at the time of the Golden Calf.

[ncusa]

again... it's just a name.I mean no disrespect here at all....but along your lines of reasoning I could call God Fred, or Baal, or Pippi Longstockings?

[ncusa]

again... it's just a name.GOD's name by and through which HE revealed Himself to your fathers.

[ncusa]

I'm talking about how arbitrary you apply the word "bound".... it's just as effective to say that someone today might be "bound" by a seatbelt and in that way, fit the description.


And the Jews didn't bind Jesus and lead him up the mountain. The Romans did that.The jews bound Him and lead Him to the Romans.
bound means tied in the context.

[Poisonshady313]

23This Jesus, when delivered up according to the definite and fixed purpose and settled plan and foreknowledge of God, you crucified and put out of the way [killing Him] by the hands of lawless and wicked men.

24[But] God raised Him up, liberating Him from the pangs of death, seeing that it was not possible for Him to continue to be controlled or retained by it.
25For David says in regard to Him, I saw the Lord constantly before me, for He is at my right hand that I may not be shaken or overthrown or cast down [from my secure and happy state].
26Therefore my heart rejoiced and my tongue exulted exceedingly; moreover, my flesh also will dwell in hope [will encamp, pitch its tent, and dwell in hope in anticipation of the resurrection].
27For You will not abandon my soul, leaving it helpless in Hades (the state of departed spirits), nor let Your Holy One know decay or see destruction [of the body after death].
28You have made known to me the ways of life; You will enrapture me [diffusing my soul with joy] with and in Your presence.(B (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=acts%202;&version=45;#cen-AMP-26976B))
29Brethren, it is permitted me to tell you confidently and with freedom concerning the patriarch David that he both died and was buried, and his tomb is with us to this day.
30Being however a prophet, and knowing that God had sealed to him with an oath that He would set one of his descendants on his throne, [II Sam. 7:12-16; Ps. 132:11.]
31He, foreseeing this, spoke [by foreknowledge] of the resurrection of the Christ (the Messiah) that He was not deserted [in death] and left in Hades (the state of departed spirits), nor did His body know decay or see destruction.(C (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=acts%202;&version=45;#cen-AMP-26979C)) 32This Jesus God raised up, and of that all we [His disciples] are witnesses

Haven't you figured out by now that the "new testament" has no value for me? Why would you think this would convince me of anything?

I could sit down right now and write a story, and have the character be anybody I want... have him resemble anybody I want. Does that add up to fulfillment of prophecy? I don't think so.

[ncusa]

Haven't you figured out by now that the "new testament" has no value for me? Why would you think this would convince me of anything?

I could sit down right now and write a story, and have the character be anybody I want... have him resemble anybody I want. Does that add up to fulfillment of prophecy? I don't think so.Would your story be historically accurate? And you being a Jew would you make up a story like that and then be martyred for the lie?
I respect you enough to think that you would not, and I meant no offense in quoting the new testament, only to show how they interpreted OT passages.

[Poisonshady313]

The jews bound Him and lead Him to the Romans.
bound means tied in the context.

Did the Jews lead him up a mountain?


And I would hardly call them his relatives. After all, his mother didn't bind him up... i'm not sure if you officially consider Joseph to be a relative... I don't know that Jesus had any actual brothers or sisters.... and while it's a nice sentiment to understand that we're all children of Israel.... it's pushing it to say that they're relatives, similar to a manner in which Isaac's father bound him up.

[ncusa]

Did the Jews lead him up a mountain?


And I would hardly call them his relatives. After all, his mother didn't bind him up... i'm not sure if you officially consider Joseph to be a relative... I don't know that Jesus had any actual brothers or sisters.... and while it's a nice sentiment to understand that we're all children of Israel.... it's pushing it to say that they're relatives, similar to a manner in which Isaac's father bound him up.I consider Josheph His adoptive father, and it is really not pushing it. more so than today ancient Israel had a corporate along with an individual identity.

[ncusa]

All deadlines for the coming of Moshiach have come and gone - the thing depends solely on our returning to G-d.

And G-d shall be king over the entire world; on that day, G-d will be one, and His name, one.
- Zechariah 14:9Talmud, Sanhedrin 97b

[Poisonshady313]

Would your story be historically accurate? And you being a Jew would you make up a story like that and then be martyred for the lie? You're asking me this as if it's supposed to parallel the writers of the NT being martyred for what they wrote... of course, I don't believe that either.

I respect you enough to think that you would not, and I meant no offense in quoting the new testament, only to show how they interpreted OT passages.

I've read the new testament... I know how badly they interpret OT passages.

[Poisonshady313]

All deadlines for the coming of Moshiach have come and gone.

That's not true at all.

[ncusa]

You're asking me this as if it's supposed to parallel the writers of the NT being martyred for what they wrote... of course, I don't believe that either.



I've read the new testament... I know how badly they interpret OT passages.To respectfully disagree they were martyred for what they believed. As for Historical narrative The Acts of the Apostles is excellent as written by Luke. So there is no reason not to believe that Stephen was not stoned for his beliefs as were others.

[ncusa]

That's not true at all.that quote comes directly from the judaica press tachach web site

[ncusa]

All deadlines for the coming of Moshiach have come and gone - the thing depends solely on our returning to G-d.
Talmud, Sanhedrin 97b

[Poisonshady313]

To respectfully disagree they were martyred for what they believed. As for Historical narrative The Acts of the Apostles is excellent as written by Luke. So there is no reason not to believe that Stephen was not stoned for his beliefs as were others.

There is a reason... I don't accept Luke's writings as being historical.

[Abe]

Jehovah is not the given name of GOD as we understand it? So holy that Hebrews for centuries refused to say it for fear of blasphemy? And Jehovah is not the word "GOD". there are many generic forms of the word that could be and often were used in the scriptures, but only Yahweh(JEhovah) is LORD
Zedekiah, (in Hebrew..."TzidkiYahu"), means "My Righteousness is YHWH". "YHWH Tzidkeinu" means "YHWH is Our Righteousness". Like many other phrases in the Tanakh, it's a pun.

ALL Hebrew names ending in "...Yahu" have YHWH in them.

[Poisonshady313]

All deadlines for the coming of Moshiach have come and gone - the thing depends solely on our returning to G-d.
Talmud, Sanhedrin 97b

Read it in context.


Rab said: All the predestined dates [for redemption] have passed, and the matter [now] depends only on repentance and good deeds. But Samuel maintained: it is sufficient for a mourner to keep his [period of] mourning. This matter is disputed by Tannaim: R. Eliezer said: if Israel repent, they will be redeemed; if not, they will not be redeemed. R. Joshua said to him, if they do not repent, will they not be redeemed! But the Holy One, blessed be He, will set up a king over them, whose decrees shall be as cruel as Haman's, whereby Israel shall engage in repentance, and he will thus bring them back to the right path. Another taught: R. Eliezer said:[B] if Israel repent, they will be redeemed, as it is written, Return, ye backsliding children, and I will heal your backslidings. R. Joshua said to him, But is it not written, ye have sold yourselves for naught; and ye shall be redeemed without money? Ye have sold yourselves for naught, for idolatry; and ye shall be redeemed without money — without repentance and good deeds. R. Eliezer retorted to R. Joshua, But is it not written, Return unto me, and I will return unto you? R. Joshua rejoined — But is it not written, For I am master over you: and I will take you one of a city, and two of a family, and I will bring you to Zion? R. Eliezer replied, But it is written, in returning and rest shall ye be saved. R. Joshua replied, But is it not written, Thus saith the Lord, The Redeemer of Israel, and his Holy One, to him whom man despiseth, to him whom the nations abhorreth, to a servant of rulers,



The statement you picked out of context is the opinion of one man... rather pessimistic... wholly refuted by Joshua and Eliezer.


Perhaps you should have read this:

R. Samuel b. Nahmani said in the name of R. Jonathan: Blasted be the bones of those who calculate the end. For they would say, since the predetermined time has arrived, and yet he has not come, he will never come. But [even so], wait for him, as it is written, Though he tarry, wait for him. Should you say, We look forward [to his coming] but He does not: therefore Scripture saith, And therefore will the Lord wait, that he may be gracious unto you, and therefore will he be exalted, that he may have mercy upon you. But since we look forward to it, and He does likewise, what delays [his coming]? — The Attribute of Justice delays it. But since the Attribute of Justice delays it, why do we await it? — To be rewarded [for hoping], as it is written, blessed are all they that wait for him.

[Poisonshady313]

Zedekiah, (in Hebrew..."TzidkiYahu"), means "My Righteousness is YHWH". "YHWH Tzidkeinu" means "YHWH is Our Righteousness". Like many other phrases in the Tanakh, it's a pun.

ALL Hebrew names ending in "...Yahu" have YHWH in them.

Thanks Abe.

[Poisonshady313]

Names ending in Yahu...

Jeremiah (Yirmiyahu)
Hezekiah (Chizkiyahu)
Isaiah (Yishayahu)
Zedekiah (Tzidkiyahu)
Josiah (Yoshiyahu)
Elijah (Eliyahu)
Benaiah (Benayahu)
Tobijah (Toviyahu)
Cononiah (Cananyahu)
Micaiahu (Michayahu)

[Abe]

Thanks Abe.

You're welcome, Shady. Also, if I may be permitted to quote your sig...,"You nailed it", in the former post.

[Abe]

Names ending in Yahu...

Jeremiah (Yirmiyahu)
Hezekiah (Chizkiyahu)
Isaiah (Yishayahu)
Zedekiah (Tzidkiyahu)
Josiah (Yoshiyahu)
Elijah (Eliyahu)
Benaiah (Benayahu)
Tobijah (Toviyahu)
Cononiah (Cananyahu)
Micaiahu (Michayahu) And let's not forget my least favourite Israeli politician...Netanyahu. There was also King David's eldest son...Adonijah (Adoniyahu).

[Poisonshady313]

You're welcome, Shady. Also, if I may be permitted to quote your sig...,"You nailed it", in the former post.

:) I try...

[Abe]

:) I try...

It costs me much health to admit that you also succeed. :))

[DRS]

It costs me much health to admit that you also succeed. :))

Quick question ha‧lelu‧yah, praise Jah and abbreviation of God's name?

[CMike11]

All deadlines for the coming of Moshiach have come and gone - the thing depends solely on our returning to G-d.

And G-d shall be king over the entire world; on that day, G-d will be one, and His name, one.
- Zechariah 14:9Talmud, Sanhedrin 97b

That might be your Moshiach, not the Jewish one.

[ncusa]

That might be your Moshiach, not the Jewish one.cmike the qotes come from the talmud, as stated on the judaica press tachach online site. they are hardly my quotes

[CMike11]

To respectfully disagree they were martyred for what they believed. As for Historical narrative The Acts of the Apostles is excellent as written by Luke. So there is no reason not to believe that Stephen was not stoned for his beliefs as were others.

Just being stoned for your beliefs doesn't mean that they were true.

There are homicide bombers who attach bombs to themselves and blow up places. Just because they are willing to die for their beliefs, doesn't mean that they were true.

And no I am not comparing jesus and his followers to terrorists. My point, is that just because people are willing to put themselves in danger for their beliefs, doesn't mean that the beliefs were true.

Want to hear a story of a true martyr? The romans tortured Rabbi Akiva because he wouldn't convert. They they burned him at the stake. As he was dying he said "hear o israel, the lord is our G-d, the lord is one." That is a true Jewish hero.

I consider jewish heroes to be the ones who resisted those who tried to make them convert by force, and who stayed with G-D, the one G-D, and faced death as a result.

Someone who rebels against Judaism, makes himself a god, doesn't really fit that bill from a jewish point of view.

[ncusa]

Read it in context.


Rab said: All the predestined dates [for redemption] have passed, and the matter [now] depends only on repentance and good deeds. But Samuel maintained: it is sufficient for a mourner to keep his [period of] mourning. This matter is disputed by Tannaim: R. Eliezer said: if Israel repent, they will be redeemed; if not, they will not be redeemed. R. Joshua said to him, if they do not repent, will they not be redeemed! But the Holy One, blessed be He, will set up a king over them, whose decrees shall be as cruel as Haman's, whereby Israel shall engage in repentance, and he will thus bring them back to the right path. Another taught: R. Eliezer said:[B] if Israel repent, they will be redeemed, as it is written, Return, ye backsliding children, and I will heal your backslidings. R. Joshua said to him, But is it not written, ye have sold yourselves for naught; and ye shall be redeemed without money? Ye have sold yourselves for naught, for idolatry; and ye shall be redeemed without money — without repentance and good deeds. R. Eliezer retorted to R. Joshua, But is it not written, Return unto me, and I will return unto you? R. Joshua rejoined — But is it not written, For I am master over you: and I will take you one of a city, and two of a family, and I will bring you to Zion? R. Eliezer replied, But it is written, in returning and rest shall ye be saved. R. Joshua replied, But is it not written, Thus saith the Lord, The Redeemer of Israel, and his Holy One, to him whom man despiseth, to him whom the nations abhorreth, to a servant of rulers,



The statement you picked out of context is the opinion of one man... rather pessimistic... wholly refuted by Joshua and Eliezer.


Perhaps you should have read this:

R. Samuel b. Nahmani said in the name of R. Jonathan: Blasted be the bones of those who calculate the end. For they would say, since the predetermined time has arrived, and yet he has not come, he will never come. But [even so], wait for him, as it is written, Though he tarry, wait for him. Should you say, We look forward [to his coming] but He does not: therefore Scripture saith, And therefore will the Lord wait, that he may be gracious unto you, and therefore will he be exalted, that he may have mercy upon you. But since we look forward to it, and He does likewise, what delays [his coming]? — The Attribute of Justice delays it. But since the Attribute of Justice delays it, why do we await it? — To be rewarded [for hoping], as it is written, blessed are all they that wait for him.poisonshady I do not try and determine the end, the end is Gods

[ncusa]

Just being stoned for your beliefs doesn't mean that they were true.

There are homicide bombers who attach bombs to themselves and blow up places. Just because they are willing to die for their beliefs, doesn't mean that they were true.

And no I am not comparing jesus and his followers to terrorists. My point, is that just because people are willing to put themselves in danger for their beliefs, doesn't mean that the beliefs were true.

Want to hear a story of a true martyr? The romans tortured Rabbi Akiva because he wouldn't convert. They they burned him at the stake. As he was dying he said "hear o israel, the lord is our G-d, the lord is one." That is a true Jewish hero.

I consider jewish heroes to be the ones who resisted those who tried to make them convert by force, and who stayed with G-D, the one G-D, and faced death as a result.

Someone who rebels against Judaism, makes himself a god, doesn't really fit that bill from a jewish point of view.The difference is that they claimed to have seen the resurrected Jesus. they knew if this was true or not, or if it was a hallucination, or if it was bogus all together. All it would have taken is for one of the original twelve to recant and the issue would have been settled over two thousand years ago.

[CMike11]

cmike the qotes come from the talmud, as stated on the judaica press tachach online site. they are hardly my quotes

Incredible how all these non jews know our (jewish) beliefs, and our holy scriptures ,better than we do.

No, they don't come from the Talmud.

In case you are interested when the Messiah will come

http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/607585/jewish/What-is-the-significance-of-year-6000-in-the-Jewish-calendar.htm

What is the significance of the year 6000 in the Jewish calendar?

By Baruch S. Davidson

Question:

I heard from a rabbi that the year 6000 will be the last year, the year when Moshiach will arrive and usher in the redemption. I thought we do not know when the "last" year will be, so why this prediction?

Answer:

The Talmud tells us that this world, as we know it, will last for six thousand years, with the seventh millennium ushering in the cosmic Shabbat, the Messianic Era. Six days a week we work, and on the Shabbat we rest and enjoy the fruits of our labor; the same is true with millenniums.
However, it is certainly possible for Moshiach to come earlier. And we believe, hope, and pray each day that this is the day when Moshiach will come. This is also analogous to the weekly Shabbat, which we have the prerogative of ushering in early on Friday afternoon (click here for more on this topic).

So yes, we don't know exactly when Moshiach will come, but we do know that it will be before the year 6000. (Currently, as I write this response, we are in the year 5768 [2007-8].)

[ncusa]

There is a reason... I don't accept Luke's writings as being historical.I respect your choice to believe that, it is your God given right.

[CMike11]

The difference is that they claimed to have seen the resurrected Jesus. they knew if this was true or not, or if it was a hallucination, or if it was bogus all together. All it would have taken is for one of the original twelve to recant and the issue would have been settled over two thousand years ago.

Not necessarily.

People sometimes see what they want to believe.

Now if 500,000 people saw it that would be a different matter.

[ncusa]

Incredible how all these non jews know our (jewish) beliefs, and our holy scriptures ,better than we do.

No, they don't come from the Talmud.

In case you are interested when the Messiah will come

http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/607585/jewish/What-is-the-significance-of-year-6000-in-the-Jewish-calendar.htm

What is the significance of the year 6000 in the Jewish calendar?

By Baruch S. Davidson

Question:

I heard from a rabbi that the year 6000 will be the last year, the year when Moshiach will arrive and usher in the redemption. I thought we do not know when the "last" year will be, so why this prediction?

Answer:

The Talmud tells us that this world, as we know it, will last for six thousand years, with the seventh millennium ushering in the cosmic Shabbat, the Messianic Era. Six days a week we work, and on the Shabbat we rest and enjoy the fruits of our labor; the same is true with millenniums.
However, it is certainly possible for Moshiach to come earlier. And we believe, hope, and pray each day that this is the day when Moshiach will come. This is also analogous to the weekly Shabbat, which we have the prerogative of ushering in early on Friday afternoon (click here for more on this topic).

So yes, we don't know exactly when Moshiach will come, but we do know that it will be before the year 6000. (Currently, as I write this response, we are in the year 5768 [2007-8].)http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/63607/jewish/Source-Texts.htm tht is where the quotes came from. If you are offended that I used your website, I will surely offend you again since it is full of interesting facts and statements. I DID not say the quotes were true I just found them interesting. So before you go off on your diatribe listen(or read) and lets have a discussion.

[ncusa]

The Jewish people has been exiled in order that the nations of the world may thereby learn of the existence of G-d and of His providence over the affairs of man.
Rabbeinu B'chayei

[CMike11]

http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/63607/jewish/Source-Texts.htm tht is where the quotes came from. If you are offended that I used your website, I will surely offend you again since it is full of interesting facts and statements. I DID not say the quotes were true I just found them interesting. So before you go off on your diatribe listen(or read) and lets have a discussion.

If you look at my source it's from the same source.

You missed part of what it said in your link

All deadlines for the coming of Moshiach have come and gone - the thing depends solely on our returning to G-d.
Talmud, Sanhedrin 97b

[ncusa]

Not necessarily.

People sometimes see what they want to believe.

Now if 500,000 people saw it that would be a different matter.I know you do not believe the NT, but it does state that he was seen of the twelve, the women, and the 500.

[ncusa]

If you look at my source it's from the same source.

You missed part of what it said in your link

All deadlines for the coming of Moshiach have come and gone - the thing depends solely on our returning to G-d.
Talmud, Sanhedrin 97bI know it is from the same source Mike that was my point

[CMike11]

Moshiach will come within the year 6,000

We are now in 5768

6,000 - 5768 = 232 more years until the messiah comes.

I heard from a rabbi that the year 6000 will be the last year, the year when Moshiach will arrive and usher in the redemption. I thought we do not know when the "last" year will be, so why this prediction?

Answer:

The Talmud tells us that this world, as we know it, will last for six thousand years, with the seventh millennium ushering in the cosmic Shabbat, the Messianic Era. Six days a week we work, and on the Shabbat we rest and enjoy the fruits of our labor; the same is true with millenniums.
However, it is certainly possible for Moshiach to come earlier. And we believe, hope, and pray each day that this is the day when Moshiach will come. This is also analogous to the weekly Shabbat, which we have the prerogative of ushering in early on Friday afternoon (click here for more on this topic).

So yes, we don't know exactly when Moshiach will come, but we do know that it will be before the year 6000. (Currently, as I write this response, we are in the year 5768 [2007-8].)[/I]

[CMike11]

I know you do not believe the NT, but it does state that he was seen of the twelve, the women, and the 500.

The NT isn't an authoritative source for me as you said.

[ncusa]

Zedekiah, (in Hebrew..."TzidkiYahu"), means "My Righteousness is YHWH". "YHWH Tzidkeinu" means "YHWH is Our Righteousness". Like many other phrases in the Tanakh, it's a pun.

ALL Hebrew names ending in "...Yahu" have YHWH in them.

5. Behold, days are coming, says the Lord, when I will set up of David a righteous shoot, and he shall reign a king and prosper, and he shall perform judgment and righteousness in the land.

6. In his days, Judah shall be saved and Israel shall dwell safely, and this is his name that he shall be called, The Lord is our righteousness.
I do have one question, why is that a pun?

[ncusa]

http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/63558/jewish/IV-Wheres-the-Truth.htm

"Christianity, despite the horrendous atrocities it perpetrated and justified, played a major role in introducing, to a largely pagan world, the concept of a one, omnipotent and non-corporeal G-d and of a messianic end-goal to existence."

Just the same as all Israel is not all Israel, so it is true that all who name the name of Christ are true Christians. The attrocities were committed as a historical fact, much to my shame, and I would like to ask for your forgiveness in general and personally.

[drmilo]

So then the wisdom being spoke of here is Jesus just as your early church fathers believed

Jesus then is created since this was acquired or brought forth.

Not at all. But, since you obviously either can't understand what I posted, or are deliberately trying to make it seem like I've said something I haven't said, I have no desire to keep talking in circles.

You know the funny thing with this thread for the most part all the trinitarians are doing is arguing Jesus is God, at best you are arguing dualism and duality

We haven't spoken much the Holy Spirit, true. But in the posts during your absence from the forum, we did touch on the Spirit briefly.

If Jehovah is most high then there is only one most high God

If you say He is not then you are contradicting scripture

No. Jehovah IS the FATHER, SON, and HOLY SPIRIT. Jehovah is not just the Father -- He is ALL THREE -- the name of the TRIUNE GOD. Thus, there is only ONE Jehovah, who is Most High, Almighty, and his name is Jehovah, who consists of the three persons, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

The Father is Jehovah.
Jesus is Jehovah
The Holy Spirit is Jehovah.

[ncusa]

And let's not forget my least favourite Israeli politician...Netanyahu. There was also King David's eldest son...Adonijah (Adoniyahu).Yah, the diminuitive for of YHWH is often used at the end of names to attribute or convey how ppl should relate to God, in their message and their personal life.

Hezek YAh-Strength of yah and through YHWH strength Hezekiah led a national revival.

Zechari YAH-Remebered of YHWH fitting since he wrote during the Babylonian Dispersion.

Zedeki YAH- righteousness of YHWH How being a descendant of David he should have related to his ppl

Eli YAH God is YAH apt since during his ministry Ahab led Israel into great apostasy and Elijah(GOD's) confrontation with the false prophets on Mt. Carmel(hope spelling is write)

Consider the name of YHWH when HE reveals HIMSELF to HIS ppl.

Jehovah-Jireh as our provider
Jehovah-nissi as our banner
Jehovah-nakah as our guide
Jehovah-sabaoth LORD of Hosts
Jehovah-shalom LORD of peace

They are never in the shortened form of HIS name. Halleulah- the praise of YAH

[ncusa]

And G-d shall be king over the entire world; on that day, G-d will be one, and His name, one.

- Zechariah 14:9Talmud, Sanhedrin 97b

28When (AR (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20cor%2015;&version=49;#cen-NASB-28747AR))all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, so that (AS (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20cor%2015;&version=49;#cen-NASB-28747AS))God may be all in all.

[Poisonshady313]

28When (AR (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20cor%2015;&version=49;#cen-NASB-28747AR))all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, so that (AS (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20cor%2015;&version=49;#cen-NASB-28747AS))God may be all in all.


you forgot to cite this.

[ncusa]

you forgot to cite this.nt

[ncusa]

you forgot to cite this.New Testament
1 Corinthians 15:28

I really didn't think you would want the citation

[Poisonshady313]

New Testament
1 Corinthians 15:28

I really didn't think you would want the citation

As a general rule, it's nice to know where things come from, even if it's from a source I don't find even the slightest bit authoritative.

[ncusa]

As a general rule, it's nice to know where things come from, even if it's from a source I don't find even the slightest bit authoritative.I agree with you, I forgot to cite it, the error was not blatant, just negligent

[Poisonshady313]

Also... you wouldn't want to mislead those who don't know any better, having them think that certain quotes are in the Talmud, when they most definitely are not.

[ncusa]

Also... you wouldn't want to mislead those who don't know any better, having them think that certain quotes are in the Talmud, when they most definitely are not.Poison I am sorry if it was misleading, that is never my intention nor will it ever be. We make mistakes, and it does pain me that you think it was deliberate. I will be more careful in the future.

Lunch is over

[Poisonshady313]

Poison I am sorry if it was misleading, that is never my intention nor will it ever be. We make mistakes, and it does pain me that you think it was deliberate. I will be more careful in the future.

Lunch is over

It's ok... I'm not criticizing you, nor am I accusing you... I'm just providing commentary about the state of things, and how to avoid potential confusion in the future.

[CMike11]

And G-d shall be king over the entire world; on that day, G-d will be one, and His name, one.

- Zechariah 14:9Talmud, Sanhedrin 97b

28When (AR (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20cor%2015;&version=49;#cen-NASB-28747AR))all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, so that (AS (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20cor%2015;&version=49;#cen-NASB-28747AS))God may be all in all.



Since the passage does mention the Talmud as its source, it is misleading. I realize you said it was a mistake.

It doesn't come from the Talmud it comes from the NT.

[ncusa]

Since the passage does mention the Talmud as its source, it is misleading. I realize you said it was a mistake.

It doesn't come from the Talmud it comes from the NT.Cmike the top quote is from the tanach, the bottom from the NT. I missed the citation and after it was posted I did not edit it until after poisonshady replied.

[ncusa]

. http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/15975/jewish/Chapter-44.htm
IS 44:6 So said the Lord, the King of Israel and his Redeemer the Lord of Hosts, "I am first and I am last, and besides Me there is no God

What is the context of this quote.?

[kittycat]

Greetings everyone,

I'm new here. I just signed up.

Instead of me posting what I think and have researched and learned about the Trinity subject, here is exactly what I have proven from my research on the subject of the messiah and who he was: http://yahweh.org/publications/fsdy/fs26AppA.pdf

It's from a book entitled "The Festivals and Sacred Days of Yahweh." That should open up in Adobe Acrobat reader as Appendix A, The Preexistence of Yahushua the Messiah. I find it easier to do this because it allows others to study the research for themselves, which they go into detail. I don't expect others to agree, so that is up to the individual and who studies it.

Well, it's nice to meet everyone. I'll be back, I hope!

Kitty

[CMike11]

. http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/15975/jewish/Chapter-44.htm
IS 44:6 So said the Lord, the King of Israel and his Redeemer the Lord of Hosts, "I am first and I am last, and besides Me there is no God

What is the context of this quote.?

You quoted the link, why don't you go to the link, and read the context.

I am unsure what you mean by your question...

[CMike11]

Greetings everyone,

I'm new here. I just signed up.

Instead of me posting what I think and have researched and learned about the Trinity subject, here is exactly what I have proven from my research on the subject of the messiah and who he was: http://yahweh.org/publications/fsdy/fs26AppA.pdf

It's from a book entitled "The Festivals and Sacred Days of Yahweh." That should open up in Adobe Acrobat reader as Appendix A, The Preexistence of Yahushua the Messiah. I find it easier to do this because it allows others to study the research for themselves, which they go into detail. I don't expect others to agree, so that is up to the individual and who studies it.

Well, it's nice to meet everyone. I'll be back, I hope!

Kitty


Welcome aboard.

Everyone on this forum agrees with everything that I say :shhh:

[kittycat]

Thank you, CMike, I appreciate you welcoming me to this board. I'm still trying to figure it all out.

kitty

[DispensationalJim]

Welcome aboard.

Everyone on this forum agrees with everything that I say :shhh:

If you believe that, Kittycat, some of us have a bridge to sell you...

But, we are glad to have you with us.

As you probably figured out, sometimes we're serious, and sometimes not. ;)

[RayMan]

Welcome aboard.

Everyone on this forum agrees with everything that I say :shhh:

Except Abe. You don't EVEN want to hear what he says about you when you aren't here. :dance:

[Tucson Jim]

You know the funny thing with this thread for the most part all the trinitarians are doing is arguing Jesus is God, at best you are arguing dualism and duality

If Jehovah is most high then there is only one most high God

If you say He is not then you are contradicting scripture

We are explicitly arguing monotheism, you simply refuse to accept it. Don't confuse your unwillingness to accept what we say with the content of our belief.

There is one God for Trinitarians no matter what you say.

[Warrior4God]

There is one God for Trinitarians no matter what you say.

There is one God for everyone and then we have one mediator between God and man and the mediator is the man Christ Jesus.

1Ti 2:5

(ASV) For there is one God, one mediator also between God and men, himself man, Christ Jesus,

(BBE) For there is one God and one peacemaker between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,

(ESV) For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,

(ISV) There is one God. There is also one mediator between God and human beings-a human, Christ Jesus.

(KJV) For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

(RV) For there is one God, one mediator also between God and men, himself man, Christ Jesus,


logic,reason, and common sense was given to us by God to see that there is one God and there is one one mediator and the mediator can't be God but the messiah that bridges the gap.


God is not a man but Jesus is a man..............how come Jesus is stilla man in heaven?

[DispensationalJim]

There is one God for everyone and then we have one mediator between God and man and the mediator is the man Christ Jesus.

1Ti 2:5

(ASV) For there is one God, one mediator also between God and men, himself man, Christ Jesus,

(BBE) For there is one God and one peacemaker between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,

(ESV) For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,

(ISV) There is one God. There is also one mediator between God and human beings-a human, Christ Jesus.

(KJV) For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

(RV) For there is one God, one mediator also between God and men, himself man, Christ Jesus,


logic,reason, and common sense was given to us by God to see that there is one God and there is one one mediator and the mediator can't be God but the messiah that bridges the gap.

So, Warrior, do you not concede that Jesus Christ created the worlds?

• John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. ... 14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
• Eph. 3:9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:
• Col. 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
• Heb. 1:1 God, ... 2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
• Heb. 1:8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
• Rev. 4:11 Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.

Surely, no man can genuinely create the worlds. And, certainly, only God can CREATE all things. And, that -- IMO -- makes Jesus God!

And -- IMO -- only the God-man, Jesus Christ, can be the mediator between God and man.

[kittycat]

If you believe that, Kittycat, some of us have a bridge to sell you...

But, we are glad to have you with us.

As you probably figured out, sometimes we're serious, and sometimes not. ;)



Well, I just signed on, but I have to admit, that one Appendix A would take someone a long time to research to prove it one way or another. But that's why I posted it because I have found it more beneficial for a person to work like the Bereans did, and they were the ones listening to Saul (Paul) to prove whether what he was saying was so or not. They searched the Scriptures daily (it would have been only the OT at that time) to see if he was speaking the truth! That's the attitude that we all are required to have: asking, seeking and finding, proving all things, holding on to the good!

Anyway, those references are packed full of stuff, important stuff, that people don't realize because why? So I'm thinking this is for those who are seriously interested in proving the truth and relying upon the evidence to gain their sure foundation upon the rock. That's what asking, seeking and finding means, BTW, taking the approach of evidence to learn truth.

And everyone, I'm not saying this to be mean at all. I promise that I'm not. No one knows who's going to research it all out or not. Only Yahweh knows the hearts and minds of mankind. Also, the part where I said you have to work, meaning you have to work for it then it becomes a part of you. Well, I can only take it by my experience. It requires action!

And everyone, may Yahweh bless you! Thank you for welcoming me here. I sure appreciate it.:dance:

kittycat

[DispensationalJim]

Greetings everyone,

I'm new here. I just signed up.

Instead of me posting what I think and have researched and learned about the Trinity subject, here is exactly what I have proven from my research on the subject of the messiah and who he was: http://yahweh.org/publications/fsdy/fs26AppA.pdf

It's from a book entitled "The Festivals and Sacred Days of Yahweh." That should open up in Adobe Acrobat reader as Appendix A, The Preexistence of Yahushua the Messiah. I find it easier to do this because it allows others to study the research for themselves, which they go into detail. I don't expect others to agree, so that is up to the individual and who studies it.

Well, it's nice to meet everyone. I'll be back, I hope!

Kitty

I must say, Kitty, that the web site was fascinating, but I would like to read more, if it is available.

The info seems to me to be well presented, but I am quite curious about how the author handles John 1 and other trinitarian verses.

[Tucson Jim]

There is one God for everyone and then we have one mediator between God and man and the mediator is the man Christ Jesus.

1Ti 2:5

(ASV) For there is one God, one mediator also between God and men, himself man, Christ Jesus,

(BBE) For there is one God and one peacemaker between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,

(ESV) For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,

(ISV) There is one God. There is also one mediator between God and human beings-a human, Christ Jesus.

(KJV) For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

(RV) For there is one God, one mediator also between God and men, himself man, Christ Jesus,


logic,reason, and common sense was given to us by God to see that there is one God and there is one one mediator and the mediator can't be God but the messiah that bridges the gap.


God is not a man but Jesus is a man..............how come Jesus is stilla man in heaven?

What do you do, Warrior, when your fallible "logic, reason and common sense" conflict with the infallible revelation of God?

What you should do is believe the revelation . . .

[Jewell]

All deadlines for the coming of Moshiach have come and gone - the thing depends solely on our returning to G-d.
Talmud, Sanhedrin 97b


Read your comment. Not to offend. :neutral: IF and when the Jews return to God is the question. Some will , some will not. But it will only happen AFTER the rapture of the saints, those who were ( are) saved through the salvation OF the Messiah Jesus Christ... WHO IS God almighty.

[CMike11]

Read your comment. Not to offend. :neutral: IF and when the Jews return to God is the question. Some will , some will not. But it will only happen AFTER the rapture of the saints, those who were ( are) saved through the salvation OF the Messiah Jesus Christ... WHO IS God almighty.


Nothing would condemn a Jew more than worshiping a false prophet, or another god

#2 of the Ten commandmants

2. "You shall have no other gods before Me. You shall not make for yourself a graven image, nor any manner of likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. You shall not bow down to them, nor serve them. For I the Lord your G-d am a jealous G-d, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children of the third and fourth generation of them that hate Me; and showing mercy unto the thousandth generation of them that love Me and keep My commandments.

From a Jewish point of view:

1) Jesus wasn't the messiah that G-D told the Jews. How we know? Because he didn't fulfill the criteria for what the messiah will do. All must be fulfilled for the messiah to be the messiah.

They are:

a) He must rebuild the temple in Jerusalem so it stands forever

b) He will bring all the Jews into Israel

c) There will be world peace

d) He must be a descendent of David

You know how many of these Jesus fulfilled? None

2) Jesus wasn't a prophet. To my knowledge, there is one major prophesy he made. That is that the temple would be destroyed. This prophesy was already made by Daniel.

The prophesy for the messiah was that the temple in Jerusalem would be rebuilt, instead, the opposite happened. It was destroyed. Not a good proof, that he was the messiah.

Also, Jesus' prophesy, was false, as we are discussing in another thread. He said that all the stones will be destroyed, and anything that can be seen there would be destroyed (paraphrase). Guess what?

The western wall is still standing. What does that mean? It means it was a false prophesy, which means he was a false prophet.

3) Jesus wasn't a god. He made himself one. However, he is not god based on Judaism. In Judaism, there is only one god. That is the G-D of Abraham, Issac, and Jacob.

Baesd on Judaism, you can't pray to another alleged divine being, you can not pray through such a person, or in the name of one.

No other being can be worshipped in any way. G-D can not be divided into different beings.

There is only one G-D, one, ONE, according to Judaism.

Worshipping another divine being is a clear violation of the ten commandmants.

During the holiday of Passover (the exodus from Egypt), Moses, was a very central figure. He was the holiest Jew in Judaism.

However, during the ritual reading of the entire story of Passover, Moses is only mentioned once, and that of a "humble servant". Why?

To make it clear that the true central figure in the story of Passover was G-D, not Moses.

4) Assuming all this is wrong, there were many real prophets in the Torah. If G-D was going to veer Jews from there most important tenents and principles, he would have told them.

5) There is no such thing in Judaism or any being absolving you form your sins, other than G-D, and the person you sinned against.

6) Jesus may have called himself a god, a messiah, and whatever else, however, to Judaism, he turned away from Judaism, and from G-D.

What Jesus did was a big sin to G-D and to Judaism from a Jewish point of view.

I am not saying he above to pick on Christianity, however, since you are being rather blunt, I thought I needed to tell you the take of Jews, from a Jewish point of view.

[kittycat]

I must say, Kitty, that the web site was fascinating, but I would like to read more, if it is available.

The info seems to me to be well presented, but I am quite curious about how the author handles John 1 and other trinitarian verses.

Hi, Jim:

Yes, the research is very well presented. You can download all of that for free, otherwise it's in theological libraries and some public libraries.

And which particular verses in John 1 are you interested in? You mean the logos (in Greek; debar in Hebrew)?

Kind Regards,
Kitty

[DRS]

We are explicitly arguing monotheism, you simply refuse to accept it. Don't confuse your unwillingness to accept what we say with the content of our belief.

There is one God for Trinitarians no matter what you say.

For true monothiests there is one person alone who is called Almighty God

[kittycat]

For true monothiests there is one person alone who is called Almighty God

Monotheism was a latter Jewish religious concept when they were in debates with the early Orthodox Christians about who Yahushua (Jesus) the messiah was. Before this time, it just didn't exist at all.

Here is an interesting link: http://users.aristotle.net/~bhuie/one.htm (http://users.aristotle.net/%7Ebhuie/one.htm)

This is another interesting amount of information, and it is rather long. http://users.aristotle.net/~bhuie/yeshua.htm

[ralittlefield]

Monotheism was a latter Jewish religious concept when they were in debates with the early Orthodox Christians about who Yahushua (Jesus) the messiah was. Before this time, it just didn't exist at all.

Here is an interesting link: http://users.aristotle.net/~bhuie/one.htm

Are you saying that Judaism was not originally monotheistic?

[CMike11]

Monotheism was a latter Jewish religious concept when they were in debates with the early Orthodox Christians about who Yahushua (Jesus) the messiah was. Before this time, it just didn't exist at all.

Here is an interesting link: http://users.aristotle.net/~bhuie/one.htm (http://users.aristotle.net/%7Ebhuie/one.htm)

This is another interesting amount of information, and it is rather long. http://users.aristotle.net/~bhuie/yeshua.htm


A latter jewish religious concept?

Judaism is based on the belief of one G-D. That is the central principle.

[CMike11]

Are you saying that Judaism was not originally monotheistic?

This should be good :wall:

[kittycat]

Are you saying that Judaism was not originally monotheistic?

Let's get straight, first, the scriptural concept of oneness.

A husband and his wife become "echad" flesh. It also means unified, one. But let me ask you this: does this mean there is only one person walking around when they marry and become "echad" flesh, or are there still two distinct people, two distinct personalities, yet one is the head over the lesser? The greater is the husband; the lesser is the wife, yet they are unified as "one."

The scriptural definitions of the eloahim is this, it is a collective noun term like in our English word family, sheep, army, team. Family is a good term to explain this concept because you have the head of the family, the husband; you have the wife, who is right under him; then you have their children, which there could be 20 of them. But you have one family with many members. Hopefully, they are unified as one and are not divided in goals, etc. Same with the eloahim (collective noun) family. They are eloah beings, many, many members in this family who are married to father Yahweh. Not sexually, but in the aspect of keeping his ways, obeying him and helping him in his creation project. Sexually is only for this time, with adam-kind, this world-age, because it procreates children for our heavenly father.

Now, you ask about Judaism, so how long do you think Judaism has been a religion? Would it surprise you to know that it didn't exist that long before Yahushua (aka Jesus) was born?

Go and study those links. You'll be surprised. This guy has wonderful references for our benefit. People think that Judaism (religion of the Pharisees) has been around a long, long time when, in fact, it wasn't. Maybe around 160 or 165 B.C.E or something. Yahushua was born in 7 B.C.E.

Kitty

[Warrior4God]

So, Warrior, do you not concede that Jesus Christ created the worlds?



Nope John 1 is not Jesus creating the world and no other scriptures says so either...............Jesus created the the church of the one body in which he is the head.

have been over this countless times .


Jesus is not a God man ,that I believe is blashpemy according to Gods Word.


Rom 1:19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
Rom 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
Rom 1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
Rom 1:22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
Rom 1:23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.


many will be fools as they stand face to face with Christ and find that he is simply what Gods Word says many times and that is that he is The Son of God and not God.

Jesus knew this and told us this truth but men think they are smarter then Jesus and smarter then God to change God into a man and make themselves fools as Romans declares.

[DRS]

Monotheism was a latter Jewish religious concept when they were in debates with the early Orthodox Christians about who Yahushua (Jesus) the messiah was. Before this time, it just didn't exist at all.

Here is an interesting link: http://users.aristotle.net/~bhuie/one.htm (http://users.aristotle.net/%7Ebhuie/one.htm)

This is another interesting amount of information, and it is rather long. http://users.aristotle.net/~bhuie/yeshua.htm

I think the bible is clear on who is God and how many persons make up Almighty God

Deuteronomy 6:4*“Listen, O Israel: Jehovah our God is one Jehovah

(Psalm 83:18) That people may know that you, whose name is Jehovah, You alone are the Most High over all the earth.

[I_cant_vote_yet]

Ok... This post is more than 1600 pages long, soooo.... I'm not going to bother to read it. I'm just going to give my 2 cents worth (whether or not it's been said before). The Catholic Church teaches papal infalliblity, which means that the Pope, when teaching directly from the throne (so to speak) of St. Peter, he will always be guilded by the Holy Spirit, and so will speak nothing wrong. Also, as Catholics, we do not use the scripture as the only source of knowledge regarding God. We also pay attention to revalation and divine inspiration. And although I will have not taken a scriptures class yet (but will do so in the next year), Jesus did hint at the Trinity. He didn't directly say there is a Trinity, but throughout the scriptures he laid the groundwork for us to find the Trinity. Again, I admit, I have not studied the scriptures enough to cite specific passages, but come back to me in 6 months, or, better yet, get a copy of a standard Catholic bible, and find some for yourself.

Andrew

[CMike11]

Let's get straight, first, the scriptural concept of oneness.

A husband and his wife become "echad" flesh. It also means unified, one. But let me ask you this: does this mean there is only one person walking around when they marry and become "echad" flesh, or are there still two distinct people, two distinct personalities, yet one is the head over the lesser? The greater is the husband; the lesser is the wife, yet they are unified as "one."

The scriptural definitions of the eloahim is this, it is a collective noun term like in our English word family, sheep, army, team. Family is a good term to explain this concept because you have the head of the family, the husband; you have the wife, who is right under him; then you have their children, which there could be 20 of them. But you have one family with many members. Hopefully, they are unified as one and are not divided in goals, etc. Same with the eloahim (collective noun) family. They are eloah beings, many, many members in this family who are married to father Yahweh. Not sexually, but in the aspect of keeping his ways, obeying him and helping him in his creation project. Sexually is only for this time, with adam-kind, this world-age, because it procreates children for our heavenly father.

Now, you ask about Judaism, so how long do you think Judaism has been a religion? Would it surprise you to know that it didn't exist that long before Yahushua (aka Jesus) was born?

Go and study those links. You'll be surprised. This guy has wonderful references for our benefit. People think that Judaism (religion of the Pharisees) has been around a long, long time when, in fact, it wasn't. Maybe around 160 or 165 B.C.E or something. Yahushua was born in 7 B.C.E.

Kitty

Your knowledge of Judaism is certainly unique :wall::wall::wall:

[kittycat]

I think the bible is clear on who is God and how many persons make up Almighty God

Deuteronomy 6:4*“Listen, O Israel: Jehovah our God is one Jehovah

(Psalm 83:18) That people may know that you, whose name is Jehovah, You alone are the Most High over all the earth.

Correct, it does teach oneness as I just explained:

Listen, oh, Israel, Yahweh our eloahi, Yahweh is echad (unified; one)
. (eloahi is a collective noun denoting the ruling class).

Compare Deut. 10:17, "for Yahweh is your eloahi, he is the eloahi of the eloahim."

How can he be the "eloahi" of the eloahim (collective noun)?

Gen. 19:24f, And Yahweh rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah, brimstone and fire FROM YAHWEH out of the heavens.

Note: two Yahwehs. One upon the ground who just spoke to Abraham (aka who was also called Michael for those of you so interested in the Mishnah.); then another in the heavens reaping the destruction. There are plently more places where the logos (debar) Yahweh is mentioned, which is all throughout the OT and specifically two Yahwehs. And I'm not talking polytheism here. Polytheism is like the Greeks or Egyptians who had so many different deities and each one had their own goal. That's polytheism. The doctrine of the OT of two Yahwehs is not polytheism at all. It's of a family of eloah beings.

Be that as it may, there is no other way. This whole process started the debates between the Jewish religious leaders and the early Christians anyway, who BTW, were themselves MOSTLY Jews from the tribe of Judah. Meaning the Orthodox Christians at first were mostly from the tribe of Judah.

Anyway, I see that no one has really taken me up on my link. I'm so very sorry. I thought that there were people here interested to sort things out and figure it all out. It's the invitation that the Bereans had, and they searched the Scriptures daily for proof, and Paul thought they were highly thought of, and being as they only had the OT scrolls at the time, you have Yahushua everywhere and in ever place in there, yet you don't realize it.

Yahushua told us, you have to dig "deep" for the rock (him). Go and understand what that means, digging and then deep. Use mental imagery. For example, Luke 6:48.

Kitty

[CMike11]

Perhaps the most important prayer in Judaism is the Shema. Here is a little about it

http://www.aish.com/literacy/mitzvahs/Shema_Yisrael.asp

Shema Yisrael -- "Hear O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is One" -- is perhaps the most famous of all Jewish sayings.


The Shema is a declaration of faith, a pledge of allegiance to One God. It is said upon arising in the morning and upon going to sleep at night. It is said when praising God and when beseeching Him. It is the first prayer that a Jewish child is taught to say. It is the last words a Jew says prior to death.


The Talmud says that when Jacob was about to reveal the end of days to his children, he was concerned that one of them might be a non-believer. His sons reassured him immediately and cried out, "Shema Yisrael."

The Torah records Moses including the Shema in his farewell address to the Jewish people.

We recite Shema when preparing to read the Torah on Sabbaths and festivals. And we recite Shema at the end of the holiest day of Yom Kippur when we reach the level of angels.

Shema is contained in the mezuzah we affix to the doorpost of our home, and in the tefillin that we bind to our arm and head.


The cry of Shema has always symbolized the ultimate manifestation of faith in the gravest situations.

Throughout the ages, the cry of Shema has always symbolized the ultimate manifestation of faith in the gravest situations. With the Shema on their lips, Jews accepted martyrdom at the Inquisitor's stake and in the Nazi gas chambers.
What is the deeper meaning of this historic affirmation of Judaism's central creed

[CMike11]

Correct, it does teach oneness as I just explained:

Listen, oh, Israel, Yahweh our eloahi, Yahweh is echad (unified; one)
. (eloahi is a collective noun denoting the ruling class).

Compare Deut. 10:17, "for Yahweh is your eloahi, he is the eloahi of the eloahim."

How can he be the "eloahi" of the eloahim (collective noun)?

Gen. 19:24f, And Yahweh rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah, brimstone and fire FROM YAHWEH out of the heavens.


Note: two Yahwehs. One upon the ground who just spoke to Abraham (aka who was also called Michael for those of you so interested in the Mishnah.); then another in the heavens reaping the destruction. There are plently more places where the logos (debar) Yahweh is mentioned, which is all throughout the OT and specifically two Yahwehs. And I'm not talking polytheism here. Polytheism is like the Greeks or Egyptians who had so many different deities and each one had their own goal. That's polytheism. The doctrine of the OT of two Yahwehs is not polytheism at all. It's of a family of eloah beings.

Be that as it may, there is no other way. This whole process started the debates between the Jewish religious leaders and the early Christians anyway, who BTW, were themselves MOSTLY Jews from the tribe of Judah. Meaning the Orthodox Christians at first were mostly from the tribe of Judah.

Anyway, I see that no one has really taken me up on my link. I'm so very sorry. I thought that there were people here interested to sort things out and figure it all out. It's the invitation that the Bereans had, and they searched the Scriptures daily for proof, and Paul thought they were highly thought of, and being as they only had the OT scrolls at the time, you have Yahushua everywhere and in ever place in there, yet you don't realize it.

Yahushua told us, you have to dig "deep" for the rock (him). Go and understand what that means, digging and then deep. Use mental imagery. For example, Luke 6:48.

Kitty

G-D was called different names based on what he was doing.

If G-D was showing mercy he was called one name, when hewas delivering punishment he was called a different name.

However, it's still the same exact G-D.

"Hear O Israel, The Lord is Our G-D, The Lord is One"

Thousands of years of learning the Torah, and someone with a web site is an expert :rolleyes:

[CMike11]

Correct, it does teach oneness as I just explained:

Listen, oh, Israel, Yahweh our eloahi, Yahweh is echad (unified; one)
. (eloahi is a collective noun denoting the ruling class).

Compare Deut. 10:17, "for Yahweh is your eloahi, he is the eloahi of the eloahim."

How can he be the "eloahi" of the eloahim (collective noun)?

Gen. 19:24f, And Yahweh rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah, brimstone and fire FROM YAHWEH out of the heavens.

Note: two Yahwehs. One upon the ground who just spoke to Abraham (aka who was also called Michael for those of you so interested in the Mishnah.); then another in the heavens reaping the destruction. There are plently more places where the logos (debar) Yahweh is mentioned, which is all throughout the OT and specifically two Yahwehs. And I'm not talking polytheism here. Polytheism is like the Greeks or Egyptians who had so many different deities and each one had their own goal. That's polytheism. The doctrine of the OT of two Yahwehs is not polytheism at all. It's of a family of eloah beings.

Be that as it may, there is no other way. This whole process started the debates between the Jewish religious leaders and the early Christians anyway, who BTW, were themselves MOSTLY Jews from the tribe of Judah. Meaning the Orthodox Christians at first were mostly from the tribe of Judah.

Anyway, I see that no one has really taken me up on my link. I'm so very sorry. I thought that there were people here interested to sort things out and figure it all out. It's the invitation that the Bereans had, and they searched the Scriptures daily for proof, and Paul thought they were highly thought of, and being as they only had the OT scrolls at the time, you have Yahushua everywhere and in ever place in there, yet you don't realize it.

Yahushua told us, you have to dig "deep" for the rock (him). Go and understand what that means, digging and then deep. Use mental imagery. For example, Luke 6:48.

Kitty

The Deut quote

17. For the Lord, your God, is God of gods and the Lord of the lords, the great mighty and awesome God, Who will show no favor, nor will He take a bribe.

Rashi
and Lord of the lords meaning that no lord will be able to deliver you from His hand.
Who will show no favor if you cast off His yoke, Nor will He take a bribe-i.e., to appease Him with money.

The Genesis passage you mentioned

24. And the Lord caused to rain down upon Sodom and Gomorrah brimstone and fire, from the Lord, from heaven.



Rashi below
And the Lord caused to rain down Wherever it is written: “And the Lord” it refers to God and His tribunal. — [from Gen. Rabbah 51:2]
caused to rain down upon Sodom At the rise of dawn, as it is stated (verse 15): “And as the dawn rose,” a time when the moon is in the sky with the sun. Since some of them worshipped the sun and some of them the moon, the Holy One, blessed be He, said, “If I punish them by day, the moon worshippers will say, ‘Had it been at night, when the moon rules, we would not have been destroyed.’ And if I punish them at night, the sun worshippers will say, ‘Had it been by day, when the sun rules, we would not have been destroyed.’” Therefore, it is written: “And as the dawn rose” : He punished them at a time when the sun and the moon [both] rule. — [from Gen. Rabbah 60:12]
caused to rain down, etc., brimstone and fire- At first, it was rain, and it became brimstone and fire. — [from Mechilta Beshallach, Massechta d’Shiratha, ch. 5]
from the Lord It is customary for the Scriptural verses to speak in this manner, as in (above 4:23): “wives of Lemech,” and he did not say, “my wives.” And so did David say, (I Kings 1:33): “Take with you the servants of your lord,” and he did not say, “my servants” ; and so did Ahasuerus say (Esther 8:8): “in the name of the king,” and he did not say, “in my name.” Here too it states “from the Lord,” and it does not state “from Him.” - [from Sanh. 38b]
from heaven This is what Scripture says (Job 36:31): “For He judges the nations therewith” [i.e., with the heavens]. When He comes to chastise mankind, He brings upon them fire from heaven, as He did to Sodom, and when He comes to let down the manna, [it is also] from heaven [as Scripture states] (Exod. 16:4): “Behold I am raining down to you bread from heaven.” - [from Tan. Buber, Beshallach 20]

[kittycat]

G-D was called different names based on what he was doing.

If G-D was showing mercy he was called one name, when hewas delivering punishment he was called a different name.

However, it's still the same exact G-D.

"Hear O Israel, The Lord is Our G-D, The Lord is One"

Well, no, he (father Yahweh) is only called by one name and he names it himself. I didn't name him. He named him. Yet his son inherited the family name. You want references? Please go and study the stuff. Would you want to be incorrect? What if you were incorrect, and I'm not saying you are?

Look, Mike, I came from a Methodist background with many family members in my line that were Ministers. And this is going way back!

Yet I know by my research they are off and way off. But they had much benefit at the time because someone needed to put a Bible in people's hands and then teach them to read it. It's like A, B, C, D, E....

It's one journey to teach something upon another. People have to at least be able to read it before they can go to the next step. So much of this has been the case in US history, because at the time of my great-grandparents, hardly anyone could even read and in their case, they were both teachers and there was a Minister. But I'm not bragging about them. You just keep in mind, they just didn't know. They didn't have the wealth of knowledge that we have nowadays.

That's all. There's a wealth of knowledge going forth that is sooooooo important for today's time, yet people may or not be looking. I just don't know that. That's in Yahweh's hands.

Kitty

[CMike11]

If you want to read from the source below is the link with Rashi's commentary to help put it in context.

Here you go:

http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/63255/jewish/The-Bible-with-Rashi.htm

[CMike11]

Well, no, he (father Yahweh) is only called by one name and he names it himself. I didn't name him. He named him. Yet his son inherited the family name. You want references? Please go and study the stuff. Would you want to be incorrect? What if you were incorrect, and I'm not saying you are?

Look, Mike, I came from a Methodist background with many family members in my line that were Ministers. And this is going way back!

Yet I know by my research they are off and way off. But they had much benefit at the time because someone needed to put a Bible in people's hands and then teach them to read it. It's like A, B, C, D, E....

It's one journey to teach something upon another. People have to at least be able to read it before they can go to the next step. So much of this has been the case in US history, because at the time of my great-grandparents, hardly anyone could even read and in their case, they were both teachers and there was a Minister. But I'm not bragging about them. You just keep in mind, they just didn't know. They didn't have the wealth of knowledge that we have nowadays.

That's all. There's a wealth of knowledge going forth that is sooooooo important for today's time, yet people may or not be looking. I just don't know that. That's in Yahweh's hands.

Kitty

Kitty it's nice you have a Minister in your family. We are discussing Judaism, aren't we?

Let me tell you a bit about my background.

I went to a school called Yeshiva University High School. There I had a double curriculum of Torah (OT) studies, and general studies.

After that four years, I went to Yeshiva University College.

I then had a double program as well. From 9-1 am, I learned Torah, on a college level, and general studies from 2-8 pm.

Also, my parents are Israeli, so I have a wee bit more knowledge of Hebrew than you do.

Aside from me being Jewish, my knowledge of Judaism, far far far, surpasses yours, even though you have a minister in your family.

If you truely care about what Judaism teaches, here are a few "credible" links to learn from.

On a very basic level
http://www.myjewishlearning.com/index.htm?VI=360803080808


On higher levels

http://www.torah.org/

http://www.chabad.org/

I will say that I know little of the NT.

However, I do know a bit more about the Torah (bible, OT), and if you distort it like you did before, I will jump in and post the truth.

[kittycat]

Kitty it's nice you have a Minister in your family. We are discussing Judaism, aren't we?

Let me tell you a bit about my background.

I went to a school called Yeshiva University High School. There I had a double curriculum of Torah (OT) studies, and general studies.

After that four years, I went to Yeshiva University College.

I then had a double program as well. From 9-1 am, I learned Torah, on a college level, and general studies from 2-8 pm.

Also, my parents are Israeli, so I have a wee bit more knowledge of Hebrew than you do.

Aside from me being Jewish, my knowledge of Judaism, far far far, surpasses yours, even though you have a minister in your family.

If you truely care about what Judaism teaches, here are a few "credible" links to learn from.

On a very basic level
http://www.myjewishlearning.com/index.htm?VI=360803080808


On higher levels

http://www.torah.org/

http://www.chabad.org/

I will say that I know little of the NT.

However, I do know a bit more about the Torah (bible, OT), and if you distort it like you did before, I will jump in and post the truth.

Hi, Mike:

Love you, and maybe you should study what I linked. It would be of the ultimate benefit to you if you so. I know the history of Judaism and such, so I doubt that you and I would be on the same page. However, if you'll study the links that I gave you from two different, nonrelated sources, then you'll see what I'm saying.

BTW, this is probably a good time for me to say good-bye. I have tons of work to do, which I'm falling behind on. I could be back next week sometime, if my work finishes. All I can say is, I'll try. And I'm not pooping out on you. I personally know enough about Judaism to tell you point blank, it's the wrong road to follow!
And May Yahweh bless you,
Kitty

[CMike11]

Hi, Mike:

Love you, and maybe you should study what I linked. It would be of the ultimate benefit to you if do so. I know the history of Judaism and such, so I doubt that you and I would be on the same page. However, if you'll study the links that I gave you from two different, nonrelated sources, then you'll see what I'm saying.

BTW, this is probably a good time for me to say good-bye. I have tons of work to do, which I'm falling behind on. I could be back next week sometime, if my work finishes. All I can say is, I'll try. And I'm not pooping out on you. I personally know enough about Judaism to tell you point blank, it's the wrong road to follow!
And May Yahweh bless you,
Kitty

I am glad that you don't represent most of the Christian posters that post here. That would be most sad.

Goodbye.

[hillplus]

:eh:


You really didn't just do that. Did you?

My respect for christians in general just took a hit.

How about just lose respect in "Christians" like her. Not all of us believe that way, as you know.

[Koushi Shinigami]

Didn't want to single anyone out. ;)

[DispensationalJim]

Nope John 1 is not Jesus creating the world and no other scriptures says so either...............Jesus created the the church of the one body in which he is the head.

have been over this countless times .


Jesus is not a God man ,that I believe is blashpemy according to Gods Word.


Rom 1:19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
Rom 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
Rom 1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
Rom 1:22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
Rom 1:23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.


many will be fools as they stand face to face with Christ and find that he is simply what Gods Word says many times and that is that he is The Son of God and not God.

Jesus knew this and told us this truth but men think they are smarter then Jesus and smarter then God to change God into a man and make themselves fools as Romans declares.

Thanks, Warrior, for once again suggesting that all trinitarians are fools. So very Christian of you.

Yes, we have been over how Christ created the worlds countless times, but IMO, Warrior, you have yet to give credible evidence that the Bible does not mean what it actually says about WHO The Creator of THE WORLDS is, especially these particular verses:

• Eph. 3:9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

That seems so clear to me.

So does this:

• Col. 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: 17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. 18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he (JESUS CHRIST) might have the preeminence.

Notice, please, that AFTER it is stated that Jesus Christ created ALL THINGS, it says "AND He is the head of the body..."

That "AND" separates the "all things" from the "head of the body," showing that the things He created were not involving Him being the "head of the body."

===================

But, let's especially remember that jESUS CHRIST must have the PREEMINENCE. God shares His glory with noone, so Jesus Christ must be God!

===================

More CREATOR verses:
• Heb. 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; 3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.


Who is the Word of God?
• John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. ...14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, ...

• Rev. 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. 12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. 13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. 14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. 5 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. ... 16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.
• 1Tim. 6:14 That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukeable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ: 15 Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;

=====================

I hope you see the logic there, Warrior, but just in case you don't...

LOGICAL STEP ONE...

A) The Word of God is The King of Kings and Lord of Lords (Rev. 19)

B) Jesus is The King of Kings and Lord of Lords (1Tim. 6:14)

C) Therefore, Jesus is The Word of God.

and LOGICAL STEP TWO...

D) The Word of God created THE WORLDS. (Heb. 1:3)

E) Jesus is The Word of God. (John 1:1)

F) Therefore, Jesus created the worlds.


and finally, LOGICAL STEP THREE...

G) God created the worlds

H) Jesus created the worlds

I) Therefore, Jesus is God.

So, since you, Warrior, do believe that Jesus was a man, and the above just showed that Jesus was GOD THE CREATOR, that makes Him THE GOD-MAN, doesn't it?

Again I ask, Warrior, can a man create ANYTHING?

[ncusa]

You quoted the link, why don't you go to the link, and read the context.

I am unsure what you mean by your question...the word redeemer speaks of a near kinsmen, just thought it was interesting

[ncusa]

Read your comment. Not to offend. :neutral: IF and when the Jews return to God is the question. Some will , some will not. But it will only happen AFTER the rapture of the saints, those who were ( are) saved through the salvation OF the Messiah Jesus Christ... WHO IS God almighty.Jewell just to let you know, and read all other posts, I am a Christian, I was just talking to cmike and poison about thoughts on the messiah.

[ncusa]

4) Assuming all this is wrong, there were many real prophets in the Torah. If G-D was going to veer Jews from there most important tenents and principles, he would have told them.

Jeremiah 31 God said He would make a new covenant with Judah and Israel.

Jeremiah 26:3 The branch is called JEhovah-tsidenku(spelling check) which is God our righteousness.

throughtout Isaiah God calls HImself our Near Kinsmen Redeemer.

Gen 49. the blessing of Jacob on Judah-the scepter would not depart until Messiah came

What Happens when the messiah dies, if he does before the resurrection?(jewish friends)

[stevearnold]

Who cares what you believe in as long as you do not infringe on the rights of others by practice of your belief.
Worship a yellow dog for all I care but allow me the same priviledge.
Those of you who profess to believe in a God of love and peace ought to start acting like it.
Those of you " Christians " who want to bash each other with your own interpretations of scripture ought to follow Christs example and judge not....let he that is without sin cast the first stone.
Anyone who preaches Christ should be hailed by any Christian for it forwards a belief in Christ and though you may quibble over doctrine the main point IS Christ is it not?
God has not left us to wander in the wilderness of doctrinal misunderstanding...James said "If any of you lack wisdom ask of God..." so ask!
Not everyone is ready to accept the fullness of the Gospel, not everyone will.
But a belief in Christ MUST come before anything else.

[Koushi Shinigami]

Who cares what you believe in as long as you do not infringe on the rights of others by practice of your belief.
Worship a yellow dog for all I care but allow me the same priviledge.
Those of you who profess to believe in a God of love and peace ought to start acting like it.
Those of you " Christians " who want to bash each other with your own interpretations of scripture ought to follow Christs example and judge not....let he that is without sin cast the first stone.
Anyone who preaches Christ should be hailed by any Christian for it forwards a belief in Christ and though you may quibble over doctrine the main point IS Christ is it not?
God has not left us to wander in the wilderness of doctrinal misunderstanding...James said "If any of you lack wisdom ask of God..." so ask!
Not everyone is ready to accept the fullness of the Gospel, not everyone will.
But a belief in Christ MUST come before anything else.



Nice first post. Welcome.

But be certain you read the TOS and stickys at the top of the forum. They are strictly enforced.


Oh. And in answer to your question. No. :twisted: As someone else said recently in another thread, the Devil is in the details. One wonders why we love the Devil so much.


:)

[CMike11]

4) Assuming all this is wrong, there were many real prophets in the Torah. If G-D was going to veer Jews from there most important tenents and principles, he would have told them.

Jeremiah 31 God said He would make a new covenant with Judah and Israel.

Jeremiah 26:3 The branch is called JEhovah-tsidenku(spelling check) which is God our righteousness.

throughtout Isaiah God calls HImself our Near Kinsmen Redeemer.

Gen 49. the blessing of Jacob on Judah-the scepter would not depart until Messiah came

What Happens when the messiah dies, if he does before the resurrection?(jewish friends)

Jeremiah 31, what specific verse are you referring too?

26:3. Perhaps they will heed and repent, each one of his evil way, and I will repent of the evil that I think to do to them because of the evil of their deeds.

What is your point again?

The resurrection of the dead will occur when the messiah comes, so I don't understand your question.

Below is all Jeremiah 31, what are you talking about specifically?

Yirmiyahu - Chapter 31
Show Rashi's Commentary
1. So says the Lord: In the wilderness, the people who had escaped the sword found favor; He [therefore] went to give Israel their resting place.
2. From long ago, the Lord appeared to me; With everlasting love have I loved you; therefore have I drawn you to Me with loving-kindness.
3. Yet again will I rebuild you, then you shall be built, O virgin of Israel; yet again shall you be adorned with your tabrets, and you shall go out with the dances of those who make merry.
4. Yet again shall you plant vineyards on the mountains of Samaria, indeed planters shall plant [them] and redeem [them].
5. For there is a day, the watchers shall call on the mountains of Ephraim; Rise! Let us go up to Zion, to the Lord, our God.
6. For so says the Lord to Jacob, "Sing [with] joy and shout at the head of the nations, make it heard, praise, and say, 'O Lord, help Your people, the remnant of Israel!' "
7. Behold I bring them from the north country and gather them from the uttermost ends of the earth, the blind and the lame amongst them, the woman with child and she who travails with child all together; a great company shall they return there.
8. With weeping will they come, and with supplications will I lead them, along brooks of water will I make them go, on a straight road upon which they will not stumble, for I have become a Father to Israel, and Ephraim is My firstborn.
9. Hear the word of the Lord, O nations, and declare it on the islands from afar, and say, "He Who scattered Israel will gather them together and watch them as a shepherd his flock.
10. For the Lord has redeemed Jacob and has saved him out of the hand of him who is stronger than he.
11. And they shall come and jubilate on the height of Zion, and they will stream to the goodness of the Lord, over corn, wine, and oil, and over sheep and cattle, and their soul shall be like a well-watered garden, and they shall have no further worry at all.
12. Then shall the virgin rejoice in the round dance with music, and the young men and the old men together, and I will turn their mourning into joy and will comfort them and make them rejoice from their sorrow.
13. And I will refresh the soul of the priests with fat, and My people-they will be satisfied with My goodness, is the word of the Lord.
14. So says the Lord: A voice is heard on high, lamentation, bitter weeping, Rachel weeping for her children, she refuses to be comforted for her children for they are not.
15. So says the Lord: Refrain your voice from weeping and your eyes from tears, for there is reward for your work, says the Lord, and they shall come back from the land of the enemy.
16. And there is hope for your future, says the Lord, and the children shall return to their own border.
17. I have indeed heard Ephraim complaining, [saying,] "You have chastised me, and I was chastised as an ungoaded calf, O lead me back, and I will return, for You are the Lord, my God.
18. For after my return I have completely changed my mind, and after I had been brought to know myself, I smote upon my thigh; I was ashamed, yea I stood confounded, for I bore the reproach of my youth."
19. "Is Ephraim a son who is dear to Me? Is he a child who is dandled? For whenever I speak of him, I still remember him: therefore, My very innards are agitated for him; I will surely have compassion on him," says the Lord.
20. Set up markers for yourself, place small palms for yourself, put your heart to the highway, the road upon which you went. Return, O virgin of Israel, return to these your cities.
21. How long will you hide, O backsliding daughter? For the Lord has created something new on the earth, a woman shall go after a man.
22. So said the Lord of Hosts, the God of Israel; They shall yet say this thing in the land of Judah and in its cities when I return their captivity; May the Lord bless You, dwelling of righteousness, holy mount.
23. And Judah shall dwell therein and [in] all its cities together, farmers and those who travel with flocks.
24. For I have sated the faint soul, and every worried soul have I replenished.
25. Thereupon, I awoke and I had seen, and my sleep was pleasant to me.
26. Behold days are coming, says the Lord, and I will sow the house of Israel and the house of Judah with seed of man and seed of beasts.
27. And it shall be, as I have watched over them to uproot and to break down, to demolish and to destroy and to afflict, so will I watch over them to build and to plant, says the Lord.
28. In those days, they shall no longer say, "Fathers have eaten unripe grapes, and the teeth of the children shall be set on edge."
29. But each man shall die for his iniquity; whoever eats the unripe grapes- his teeth shall be set on edge.
30. Behold, days are coming, says the Lord, and I will form a covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah, a new covenant.
31. Not like the covenant that I formed with their forefathers on the day I took them by the hand to take them out of the land of Egypt, that they broke My covenant, although I was a lord over them, says the Lord.
32. For this is the covenant that I will form with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will place My law in their midst and I will inscribe it upon their hearts, and I will be their God and they shall be My people.
33. And no longer shall one teach his neighbor or [shall] one [teach] his brother, saying, "Know the Lord," for they shall all know Me from their smallest to their greatest, says the Lord, for I will forgive their iniquity and their sin I will no longer remember.
34. So said the Lord, Who gives the sun to illuminate by day, the laws of the moon and the stars to illuminate at night, Who stirs up the sea and its waves roar, the Lord of Hosts is His name.
35. If these laws depart from before Me, says the Lord, so will the seed of Israel cease being a nation before Me for all time.
36. So said the Lord: If the heavens above will be measured and the foundations of the earth below will be fathomed, I too will reject all the seed of Israel because of all they did, says the Lord.
37. Behold days are coming, says the Lord, and the city shall be built to the Lord, from the tower of Hananel until the gate of the corner.
38. And the measuring line shall go out further opposite it upon the hill of Gareb, and it shall turn to Goah.
39. And the whole valley of the dead bodies and the ash and all the fields until the Kidron Valley, until the corner of the Horse Gate to the east, shall be holy to the Lord; it shall never again be uprooted or torn down forever.


http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/16028/jewish/Chapter-31.htm

[CMike11]

How about just lose respect in "Christians" like her. Not all of us believe that way, as you know.

That's a point, however, I so see the same sentiment pretty often around here.

I also wonder how many posters here believe the same thing but are reluctant to say it here.

[Koushi Shinigami]

That's a point, however, I so see the same sentiment pretty often around here.

I also wonder how many posters here believe the same thing but are reluctant to say it here.

Not me. :)



I've seen the idea that one would know who the followers of Christ are by the fruits (figurative) they produce. If everyone here actually believed that, there would be no Mormon bashing here.

[CMike11]

Not me. :)




That I am sure of.

[hillplus]

That's a point, however, I so see the same sentiment pretty often around here.

I also wonder how many posters here believe the same thing but are reluctant to say it here.

You don't really have to wonder, do you?

I am not one of them, not going to damn you to your face or behind your back.

If we do the best we can to follow God as we see Him, I think we will be O.K.

[Constantine the Great]

That's a point, however, I so see the same sentiment pretty often around here.

I also wonder how many posters here believe the same thing but are reluctant to say it here.


Because judging all of us based on the postings of a few is so much better isn't it. :rolleyes:

[hillplus]

Because judging all of us based on the postings of a few is so much better isn't it. :rolleyes:

He didn't judge everyone, I don't feel judged. Why do YOU feel judged?

[CMike11]

Because judging all of us based on the postings of a few is so much better isn't it. :rolleyes:

Where exactly did I judge all of you?

[Constantine the Great]

He didn't judge everyone, I don't feel judged. Why do YOU feel judged?

Who says I personally feel judged? I'm making a comment on a post. Is your attribution to me of a sentiment that isn't there a sign of a guilty conscious? :think:

[Constantine the Great]

My apologies. I quoted the wrong post.

:eh:


You really didn't just do that. Did you?

My respect for christians in general just took a hit.

[ncusa]

Jeremiah 31, what specific verse are you referring too?

26:3. Perhaps they will heed and repent, each one of his evil way, and I will repent of the evil that I think to do to them because of the evil of their deeds.

What is your point again?

The resurrection of the dead will occur when the messiah comes, so I don't understand your question.

Below is all Jeremiah 31, what are you talking about specifically?

Yirmiyahu - Chapter 31
Show Rashi's Commentary
1. So says the Lord: In the wilderness, the people who had escaped the sword found favor; He [therefore] went to give Israel their resting place.
2. From long ago, the Lord appeared to me; With everlasting love have I loved you; therefore have I drawn you to Me with loving-kindness.
3. Yet again will I rebuild you, then you shall be built, O virgin of Israel; yet again shall you be adorned with your tabrets, and you shall go out with the dances of those who make merry.
4. Yet again shall you plant vineyards on the mountains of Samaria, indeed planters shall plant [them] and redeem [them].
5. For there is a day, the watchers shall call on the mountains of Ephraim; Rise! Let us go up to Zion, to the Lord, our God.
6. For so says the Lord to Jacob, "Sing [with] joy and shout at the head of the nations, make it heard, praise, and say, 'O Lord, help Your people, the remnant of Israel!' "
7. Behold I bring them from the north country and gather them from the uttermost ends of the earth, the blind and the lame amongst them, the woman with child and she who travails with child all together; a great company shall they return there.
8. With weeping will they come, and with supplications will I lead them, along brooks of water will I make them go, on a straight road upon which they will not stumble, for I have become a Father to Israel, and Ephraim is My firstborn.
9. Hear the word of the Lord, O nations, and declare it on the islands from afar, and say, "He Who scattered Israel will gather them together and watch them as a shepherd his flock.
10. For the Lord has redeemed Jacob and has saved him out of the hand of him who is stronger than he.
11. And they shall come and jubilate on the height of Zion, and they will stream to the goodness of the Lord, over corn, wine, and oil, and over sheep and cattle, and their soul shall be like a well-watered garden, and they shall have no further worry at all.
12. Then shall the virgin rejoice in the round dance with music, and the young men and the old men together, and I will turn their mourning into joy and will comfort them and make them rejoice from their sorrow.
13. And I will refresh the soul of the priests with fat, and My people-they will be satisfied with My goodness, is the word of the Lord.
14. So says the Lord: A voice is heard on high, lamentation, bitter weeping, Rachel weeping for her children, she refuses to be comforted for her children for they are not.
15. So says the Lord: Refrain your voice from weeping and your eyes from tears, for there is reward for your work, says the Lord, and they shall come back from the land of the enemy.
16. And there is hope for your future, says the Lord, and the children shall return to their own border.
17. I have indeed heard Ephraim complaining, [saying,] "You have chastised me, and I was chastised as an ungoaded calf, O lead me back, and I will return, for You are the Lord, my God.
18. For after my return I have completely changed my mind, and after I had been brought to know myself, I smote upon my thigh; I was ashamed, yea I stood confounded, for I bore the reproach of my youth."
19. "Is Ephraim a son who is dear to Me? Is he a child who is dandled? For whenever I speak of him, I still remember him: therefore, My very innards are agitated for him; I will surely have compassion on him," says the Lord.
20. Set up markers for yourself, place small palms for yourself, put your heart to the highway, the road upon which you went. Return, O virgin of Israel, return to these your cities.
21. How long will you hide, O backsliding daughter? For the Lord has created something new on the earth, a woman shall go after a man.
22. So said the Lord of Hosts, the God of Israel; They shall yet say this thing in the land of Judah and in its cities when I return their captivity; May the Lord bless You, dwelling of righteousness, holy mount.
23. And Judah shall dwell therein and [in] all its cities together, farmers and those who travel with flocks.
24. For I have sated the faint soul, and every worried soul have I replenished.
25. Thereupon, I awoke and I had seen, and my sleep was pleasant to me.
26. Behold days are coming, says the Lord, and I will sow the house of Israel and the house of Judah with seed of man and seed of beasts.
27. And it shall be, as I have watched over them to uproot and to break down, to demolish and to destroy and to afflict, so will I watch over them to build and to plant, says the Lord.
28. In those days, they shall no longer say, "Fathers have eaten unripe grapes, and the teeth of the children shall be set on edge."
29. But each man shall die for his iniquity; whoever eats the unripe grapes- his teeth shall be set on edge.
30. Behold, days are coming, says the Lord, and I will form a covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah, a new covenant.
31. Not like the covenant that I formed with their forefathers on the day I took them by the hand to take them out of the land of Egypt, that they broke My covenant, although I was a lord over them, says the Lord.
32. For this is the covenant that I will form with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will place My law in their midst and I will inscribe it upon their hearts, and I will be their God and they shall be My people.
33. And no longer shall one teach his neighbor or [shall] one [teach] his brother, saying, "Know the Lord," for they shall all know Me from their smallest to their greatest, says the Lord, for I will forgive their iniquity and their sin I will no longer remember.
34. So said the Lord, Who gives the sun to illuminate by day, the laws of the moon and the stars to illuminate at night, Who stirs up the sea and its waves roar, the Lord of Hosts is His name.
35. If these laws depart from before Me, says the Lord, so will the seed of Israel cease being a nation before Me for all time.
36. So said the Lord: If the heavens above will be measured and the foundations of the earth below will be fathomed, I too will reject all the seed of Israel because of all they did, says the Lord.
37. Behold days are coming, says the Lord, and the city shall be built to the Lord, from the tower of Hananel until the gate of the corner.
38. And the measuring line shall go out further opposite it upon the hill of Gareb, and it shall turn to Goah.
39. And the whole valley of the dead bodies and the ash and all the fields until the Kidron Valley, until the corner of the Horse Gate to the east, shall be holy to the Lord; it shall never again be uprooted or torn down forever.


http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/16028/jewish/Chapter-31.htmJeremiah 31:30-32

as to the resurrection there are some rabbis (I don't know how many) who think the resurrection may occur sometime after HIS coming.

Jeremiah 23:5-6 God our Righteousness, I mistyped during work this morning.

[Koushi Shinigami]

My apologies. I quoted the wrong post.

:cool:


Did I ever mention that I am in fact a Christain? The post I was referring to caused me to experience a little shame to claim to be part of that group.

[Constantine the Great]

:cool:


Did I ever mention that I am in fact a Christain? The post I was referring to caused me to experience a little shame to claim to be part of that group.

I gather by your posts that you are; that doesn't change the nature of the post by much.
Furthermore, you did not make it a personal matter as you did just now by placing yourself in that mix. All you said was that you lost a bit of respect for Christians in general based on what one person posted.

[Koushi Shinigami]

:shrug:

And that I did.

[Fire Watch]

Those of you " Christians " who want to bash each other with your own interpretations of scripture ought to follow Christs example and judge not....let he that is without sin cast the first stone.
Perhaps you should learn a bit about Hermeneutics and contextual interpretation before jumping up on a soap box in haughty self righteousness ;)

[Fire Watch]

That's a point, however, I so see the same sentiment pretty often around here.

I also wonder how many posters here believe the same thing but are reluctant to say it here.
Do you know enough about Christianity to say "it's the wrong road to follow"?

[ncusa]

Cmike I know all jews don't agree, but some in times past did. And when quoting Is 53 in the past you have dismissed it out of hand. Judaism is not monolithic, nor is Christianity, just look at some of these posts.

Isaiah 53 in Rabbinic Sources
Despite objections in modern Judaism to the messianic interpretation of Isaiah 53, some ancient rabbinic and Talmudic sources have shown the opposite view. The concept of a suffering messiah (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messiah), Messiah ben Joseph (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messiah_ben_Joseph), has been a part of Judaism since before the Christian era. The Old Testament paraphrase of Targum Jonathan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Targum_Jonathan) begins in 52:13 with the words, "Behold, my servant the Messiah shall prosper," assigning the passage's interpretation to a suffering messiah. The ancient Babylonian Talmud (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Babylonian_Talmud) asks, "Rabbi Yochanan said, ‘The Messiah - what is his name?’… And our Rabbis said, ‘the pale one… is his name,’ as it is written ‘Surely he took up our infirmities and carried our sorrows - yet we considered him stricken by G~d, smitten by him and afflicted.’"[5] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isaiah_53#cite_note-4) This perspective on the passage has been influential in Jewish exegesis until as recently as th 16th century, when Rabbi Moshe Alshich (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moshe_Alshich) said of the passage, "I may remark then, that our Rabbis with one voice accept and affirm the opinion that the prophet is speaking of the King Messiah, and we ourselves shall adhere to the same view."[6] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isaiah_53#cite_note-5) Influential Jewish commentator Rashi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rashi) was among the first to reject any messianic interpretation of Isaiah 53, instead assigning the subject to the suffering of the Jewish people

wikipedia

[Poisonshady313]

Cmike I know all jews don't agree, but some in times past did. And when quoting Is 53 in the past you have dismissed it out of hand. Judaism is not monolithic, nor is Christianity, just look at some of these posts.

Isaiah 53 in Rabbinic Sources
Despite objections in modern Judaism to the messianic interpretation of Isaiah 53, some ancient rabbinic and Talmudic sources have shown the opposite view. The concept of a suffering messiah (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messiah), Messiah ben Joseph (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messiah_ben_Joseph), has been a part of Judaism since before the Christian era. The Old Testament paraphrase of Targum Jonathan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Targum_Jonathan) begins in 52:13 with the words, "Behold, my servant the Messiah shall prosper," assigning the passage's interpretation to a suffering messiah. The ancient Babylonian Talmud (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Babylonian_Talmud) asks, "Rabbi Yochanan said, ‘The Messiah - what is his name?’… And our Rabbis said, ‘the pale one… is his name,’ as it is written ‘Surely he took up our infirmities and carried our sorrows - yet we considered him stricken by G~d, smitten by him and afflicted.’"[5] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isaiah_53#cite_note-4) This perspective on the passage has been influential in Jewish exegesis until as recently as th 16th century, when Rabbi Moshe Alshich (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moshe_Alshich) said of the passage, "I may remark then, that our Rabbis with one voice accept and affirm the opinion that the prophet is speaking of the King Messiah, and we ourselves shall adhere to the same view."[6] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isaiah_53#cite_note-5) Influential Jewish commentator Rashi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rashi) was among the first to reject any messianic interpretation of Isaiah 53, instead assigning the subject to the suffering of the Jewish people

wikipedia

From the same wikipedia page,

In Christian church father Origen's Contra Celsus, written in the year 248, he writes of Isaiah 53:

Now I remember that, on one occasion, at a disputation held with certain Jews, who were reckoned wise men, I quoted these prophecies; to which my Jewish opponent replied, that these predictions bore reference to the whole people, regarded as one individual, and as being in a state of dispersion and suffering, in order that many proselytes might be gained, on account of the dispersion of the Jews among numerous heathen nations.


This was even before the Talmud was written.

[Poisonshady313]

Plus... you couldn't use Isaiah 53 to say Jesus was the Messiah ben Yoseph... because the NT asserts time and time again that Jesus is ben David.

You kinda have to pick one.

[rhet 2]

Plus... you couldn't use Isaiah 53 to say Jesus was the Messiah ben Yoseph... because the NT asserts time and time again that Jesus is ben David.

You kinda have to pick one.

And the Joseph MUST be the son of Jacob, because there has only been one Joseph and one Jacob in the entire history of Israel, and never has a descendant of David been named either Jacob or Joseph, right?

Question:

if Mary conceived a child BEFORE she and Joseph married, but Joseph married her anyway and claimed the child as his own -- which is what happened -- wouldn't the Jewish community assume that he did so because he had had sex with his betrothed BEFORE they married and believed himself the biological father -- and therefore the child would be called "son of Joseph" because the marriage occurred BEFORE the birth and because Joseph never denied paternity?

Saying NOTHING about who the real father might have been, even though you know it isn't you, is not quite the same thing as BEING the father. But, in a society where the unmarried finace who turned up pregnant would NORMALLY have been repudiated and shamed as a whore, and where pre-marital sex with a betrothed is NOT unusual, people assume you're the father when you go through with the wedding anyway.

[rhet 2]

Do I believe in the Trinity?

I don't know. "Trinity" is a human concept to explain God's intensely varying METHODS of interacting with humanity.

What I do know is this:

Abraham bowed down to the "Angel of the LORD" -- utterly forbidden had that Angel NOT been the true God of Abraham.

God is omnipotent: if He WANTS to make a human body for Himself out of David's DNA so He Himself has a legal and human claim to the Davidic throne, who am I to tell Him "No, You can't do that"?

And no way the LORD God worshipped by Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, and Moses limits Himself to sitting on His duff in heaven -- He has ALWAYS been directly and personally involved in human lives, walking the earth in His Own Being -- just as He physically walked with Adam in the Garden of Eden.

The idea of the God of Abraham being some entity far removed from the affairs of men is just not sustained by Written Torah. He's here AND in heaven, walking the earth AND sitting in the Throne Room of God at one and the same time -- because He is both Omnipotent AND Omnipresent.

And the idea that God assumed a body made from David's DNA is the only logical explanation for how both a son of David AND God can both, at one and the same time, be KING of Kings to rule the entire earth, not just Israel, and keep His oath to David that the Davidic throne would never end.

If God Himself is the KING of Israel AND a son of David, then, truly, Israel has NEVER lacked a King -- and never will -- a KING of Kings and LORD of Lords more powerful, more wise, more righteous and holy and perfect than David ever dreamed of being, than Solomon could have ever been. More perfect than even Moses or Abraham himself.

A true and PERFECT Government to be envied by every Gentile who's ever been stuck surviving under corrupt and corruptible human-only governments.

[Poisonshady313]

And the Joseph MUST be the son of Jacob, Yes.

because there has only been one Joseph and one Jacob in the entire history of Israel, and never has a descendant of David been named either Jacob or Joseph, right?
Don't be silly.

Moshiach ben Yosef (Moshiach the descendant of Joseph) of the tribe of Ephraim (son of Joseph), is also referred to as Moshiach ben Ephrayim, Moshiach the descendant of Ephraim.

http://www.moshiach.com/topics/in-depth/moshiach-ben-yossef.php

Question:

if Mary conceived a child BEFORE she and Joseph married, but Joseph married her anyway and claimed the child as his own -- which is what happened -- wouldn't the Jewish community assume that he did so because he had had sex with his betrothed BEFORE they married and believed himself the biological father -- and therefore the child would be called "son of Joseph" because the marriage occurred BEFORE the birth and because Joseph never denied paternity? If you maintain the concept of the virgin birth, then this whole scenario is irrelevant. It doesn't matter what the people think. Reality matters. And if Joseph was not in fact the father of the child... then he was not in fact the father of the child.

[CMike11]

Do you know enough about Christianity to say "it's the wrong road to follow"?

I didn't say that. It was said about Judaism.

[Reeder]

He's here AND in heaven, walking the earth AND sitting in the Throne Room of God at one and the same time -- because He is both Omnipotent AND Omnipresent.


Christ has a body of flesh and bone, does He not? Does the "fulness of the Godhead" dwell in that resurrected body? If so, how is God omnipresent?

[rhet 2]

Christ has a body of flesh and bone, does He not? Does the "fulness of the Godhead" dwell in that resurrected body? If so, how is God omnipresent?

And God cannot be fully present in a human body AND fuly present in Jerusalem and in Heaven at one and the same time?

With God, all things are possible.

YOU couldn't do it. But what is impossible to God?

[Reeder]

And God cannot be fully present in a human body AND fuly present in Jerusalem and in Heaven at one and the same time?

With God, all things are possible.

YOU couldn't do it. But what is impossible to God?

What makes you think God is omnipresent? If God is omniscient and knows and sees all things - then what would the purpose of omnipresence be?

[CMike11]

Hi, Mike:

Love you, and maybe you should study what I linked. It would be of the ultimate benefit to you if you so. I know the history of Judaism and such, so I doubt that you and I would be on the same page. However, if you'll study the links that I gave you from two different, nonrelated sources, then you'll see what I'm saying.

BTW, this is probably a good time for me to say good-bye. I have tons of work to do, which I'm falling behind on. I could be back next week sometime, if my work finishes. All I can say is, I'll try. And I'm not pooping out on you. I personally know enough about Judaism to tell you point blank, it's the wrong road to follow!And May Yahweh bless you,
Kitty

Fire Watch if you are listening.

I didn't say it about Christianity, Kitty said it about Judaism.

[Constantine the Great]

Fire Watch if you are listening.

I didn't say it about Christianity, Kitty said it about Judaism.
No Christian should "poo poo" anyone who follows what we refer to as the Old Covenant since it is as eternal as God Himself.

[DRS]

And God cannot be fully present in a human body AND fuly present in Jerusalem and in Heaven at one and the same time?

With God, all things are possible.

YOU couldn't do it. But what is impossible to God?

There are things that are impossible with God, for example it is impossible for God to lie, it is also impossible for man to see God's face and live, which then makes it high doubtful He was man since many saw the face of Jesus even in full heavenly glory

[DRS]

No Christian should "poo poo" anyone who follows what we refer to as the Old Covenant since it is as eternal as God Himself.

What about Hebrews 8:13?

[CMike11]

No Christian should "poo poo" anyone who follows what we refer to as the Old Covenant since it is as eternal as God Himself.

FW seemed to be stating that I said that about Christianity, which i didn't.

[Reeder]

There are things that are impossible with God, for example it is impossible for God to lie, it is also impossible for man to see God's face and live, which then makes it high doubtful He was man since many saw the face of Jesus even in full heavenly glory

Ex. 33: 11

11 And the Lord spake unto Moses face to face, as a man speaketh unto his friend. And he turned again into the camp: but his servant Joshua, the son of Nun, a young man, departed not out of the tabernacle.

[Poisonshady313]

Ex. 33: 11

11 And the Lord spake unto Moses face to face, as a man speaketh unto his friend. And he turned again into the camp: but his servant Joshua, the son of Nun, a young man, departed not out of the tabernacle.

The meaning of this verse is, Moses was conscious and fully aware of his conversations with God, whereas all other prophets spoke to God either via a vision or dream.

Any anthropomorphism of God is strictly metaphorical.

[Fire Watch]

What makes you think God is omnipresent?
Here's a good starting place..

Psalm 139

7 Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence?


8 If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.

9 If I take the wings of the morning, and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea;

10 Even there shall thy hand lead me, and thy right hand shall hold me.


If God is omniscient and knows and sees all things - then what would the purpose of omnipresence be?

It's a state of being, not a "purpose". The creator isnt bound by the creation. God was not omnipresent prior to creation. Omnipresence, then, is not an essential attribute of God's nature; spacelessness is essential to God's nature. God existing alone without creation is spaceless. God became omnipresent concurrent with creation in virtue of the creation of space. Omnipresence emerged as a contingent relation between God and the spatial universe He created.

[Fire Watch]

Fire Watch if you are listening.

I didn't say it about Christianity, Kitty said it about Judaism.
I understand that. Still, I'm asking you a simple question, according to your beliefs, do you know enough about Christianity to say "it's the wrong road to follow"?

[Reeder]

The meaning of this verse is, Moses was conscious and fully aware of his conversations with God, whereas all other prophets spoke to God either via a vision or dream.

Any anthropomorphism of God is strictly metaphorical.

I disagree, as I believe God is anthropomorphic - we being created in His image.

For me, the Joseph Smith translation of these verses clears things up a bit:

20 And he said unto Moses, Thou canst not see my face at this time, lest mine anger be kindled against thee also, and I destroy thee, and thy people; for there shall no man among them see me at this time, and live, for they are exceeding sinful. And no sinful man hath at any time, neither shall there be any sinful man at any time, that shall see my face and live.

21 And the Lord said, Behold, there is a place by me, and thou shalt stand upon a rock:

22 And it shall come to pass, while my glory passeth by, that I will put thee in a clift of the rock, and will cover thee with my hand while I pass by:

23 And I will take away mine hand, and thou shalt see my back parts: but my face shall not be seen as at other times; for I am angry with my people Israel.


In other words, no "sinful" person can see God and live.