Should You Believe In The Trinity?

[DRS]

As far as Christianity is concerned, that's EXACTLY what it sounds like.

If I'm wrong, show me the old testament prophecies that necessitate two comings.

You were shown and you said no no tht is an either or thing though the bible does not say that

[Reeder]

As far as Christianity is concerned, that's EXACTLY what it sounds like.

If I'm wrong, show me the old testament prophecies that necessitate two comings.

There's that word again....."necessitate." It has nothing to do with God "NEEDING" to have a Second Coming.......thats how its GOING to happen.

The Second Coming of Christ will usher in the millenium of peace which has been prophesied for thousands of years. When Christ comes, the wicked will be destroyed.

[Poisonshady313]

You were shown and you said no no tht is an either or thing though the bible does not say that

It doesn't not say that. A vision isn't a precise replica of how the future is going to turn out. Daniel isn't John Smith from the dead zone. It's full of symbolism and such.

There will be only one messiah. he will come only once. The method of his coming depends on whether Israel triumphantly merits it, or desperately needs it to survive.

[Poisonshady313]

There's that word again....."necessitate." It has nothing to do with God "NEEDING" to have a Second Coming.......thats how its GOING to happen.

The Second Coming of Christ will usher in the millenium of peace which has been prophesied for thousands of years. When Christ comes, the wicked will be destroyed.

Why a second coming? Why not the first time?

[Reeder]

Why a second coming? Why not the first time?

Because thats what God decided.

Jacob Chapter 5 contains the "Allegory of the tame and wild olive trees." They are a likeness of Israel and the gentiles. It speaks of the scattering and gathering of Israel. Allusions are made to the Nephites and Lamanites and all the house of Israel. The gentiles shall be grafted into Israel. Eventually the vineyard shall be burned (The Second Coming).

The two main "comings" of Christ are central to this gathering. The establishment of the New Testament, the proclaiming of the gospel to the "four corners of the earth," and ultimately the Second Coming when Christ will "lay up of the fruit of [His] vineyard unto [His] own self against the season."

The following link contains this "allegory."

http://scriptures.lds.org/en/jacob/5

[Angryamerican]

Unless, of course, it was part of His plan to have a second visit . . .

Do you think maybe God would have made that known to the Jews ?

[Angryamerican]

It has nothing to do with God "needing" a Second Coming......that's how its GOING to happen.

Its not like God said "Oops, I forgot a few things. I'd better head back to earth and fulfill the remaining prophesies."

Believe that if you wish.

[Angryamerican]

Can anyone here tell us who Christ was in the ot with scripture ?

Can anyone here provide proof Jesus existed in the ot scriptures ?

And do this without needing scripture from the nt to do so. I'll be waiting for your response.

[Reeder]

Can anyone here tell us who Christ was in the ot with scripture ?

Can anyone here provide proof Jesus existed in the ot scriptures ?

And do this without needing scripture from the nt to do so. I'll be waiting for your response.

Jesus was Jehovah in the OT.


3 Nephi Chapter 11


9 And it came to pass that he stretched forth his hand and spake unto the people, saying:

10 Behold, I am Jesus Christ, whom the prophets testified shall come into the world.

11 And behold, I am the light and the life of the world; and I have drunk out of that bitter cup which the Father hath given me, and have glorified the Father in taking upon me the sins of the world, in the which I have suffered the will of the Father in all things from the beginning.

12 And it came to pass that when Jesus had spoken these words the whole multitude fell to the earth; for they remembered that it had been prophesied among them that Christ should show himself unto them after his ascension into heaven.

13 And it came to pass that the Lord spake unto them saying:

14 Arise and come forth unto me, that ye may thrust your hands into my side, and also that ye may feel the prints of the nails in my hands and in my feet, that ye may know that I am the God of Israel, and the God of the whole earth, and have been slain for the sins of the world.

15 And it came to pass that the multitude went forth, and thrust their hands into his side, and did feel the prints of the nails in his hands and in his feet; and this they did do, going forth one by one until they had all gone forth, and did see with their eyes and did feel with their hands, and did know of a surety and did bear record, that it was he, of whom it was written by the prophets, that should come.


Doctrine & Covanents 110

1 The veil was taken from our minds, and the eyes of our understanding were opened.

2 We saw the Lord standing upon the breastwork of the pulpit, before us; and under his feet was a paved work of pure gold, in color like amber.

3 His eyes were as a flame of fire; the hair of his head was white like the pure snow; his countenance shone above the brightness of the sun; and his voice was as the sound of the rushing of great waters, even the voice of Jehovah, saying:

4 I am the first and the last; I am he who liveth, I am he who was slain; I am your advocate with the Father.

Mosiah Chapter 7


19 Therefore, lift up your heads, and rejoice, and put your trust in God, in that God who was the God of Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob; and also, that God who brought the children of Israel out of the land of Egypt, and caused that they should walk through the Red Sea on dry ground, and fed them with manna that they might not perish in the wilderness; and many more things did he do for them.

20 And again, that same God has brought our fathers out of the land of Jerusalem, and has kept and preserved his people even until now; and behold, it is because of our iniquities and abominations that he has brought us into bondage.

25 For if this people had not fallen into transgression the Lord would not have suffered that this great evil should come upon them. But behold, they would not hearken unto his words; but there arose contentions among them, even so much that they did shed blood among themselves.

26 And a prophet of the Lord have they slain; yea, a chosen man of God, who told them of their wickedness and abominations, and prophesied of many things which are to come, yea, even the coming of Christ.

27 And because he said unto them that Christ was the God, the Father of all things, and said that he should take upon him the image of man, and it should be the image after which man was created in the beginning; or in other words, he said that man was created after the image of God, and that God should come down among the children of men, and take upon him flesh and blood, and go forth upon the face of the earth—

28 And now, because he said this, they did put him to death; and many more things did they do which brought down the wrath of God upon them. Therefore, who wondereth that they are in bondage, and that they are smitten with sore afflictions?




Thats a few, for starters.

[Angryamerican]

Jesus was Jehovah in the OT.


3 Nephi Chapter 11


9 And it came to pass that he stretched forth his hand and spake unto the people, saying:

10 Behold, I am Jesus Christ, whom the prophets testified shall come into the world.

11 And behold, I am the light and the life of the world; and I have drunk out of that bitter cup which the Father hath given me, and have glorified the Father in taking upon me the sins of the world, in the which I have suffered the will of the Father in all things from the beginning.

12 And it came to pass that when Jesus had spoken these words the whole multitude fell to the earth; for they remembered that it had been prophesied among them that Christ should show himself unto them after his ascension into heaven.

13 And it came to pass that the Lord spake unto them saying:

14 Arise and come forth unto me, that ye may thrust your hands into my side, and also that ye may feel the prints of the nails in my hands and in my feet, that ye may know that I am the God of Israel, and the God of the whole earth, and have been slain for the sins of the world.

15 And it came to pass that the multitude went forth, and thrust their hands into his side, and did feel the prints of the nails in his hands and in his feet; and this they did do, going forth one by one until they had all gone forth, and did see with their eyes and did feel with their hands, and did know of a surety and did bear record, that it was he, of whom it was written by the prophets, that should come.


Doctrine & Covanents 110

1 The veil was taken from our minds, and the eyes of our understanding were opened.

2 We saw the Lord standing upon the breastwork of the pulpit, before us; and under his feet was a paved work of pure gold, in color like amber.

3 His eyes were as a flame of fire; the hair of his head was white like the pure snow; his countenance shone above the brightness of the sun; and his voice was as the sound of the rushing of great waters, even the voice of Jehovah, saying:

4 I am the first and the last; I am he who liveth, I am he who was slain; I am your advocate with the Father.

Mosiah Chapter 7


19 Therefore, lift up your heads, and rejoice, and put your trust in God, in that God who was the God of Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob; and also, that God who brought the children of Israel out of the land of Egypt, and caused that they should walk through the Red Sea on dry ground, and fed them with manna that they might not perish in the wilderness; and many more things did he do for them.

20 And again, that same God has brought our fathers out of the land of Jerusalem, and has kept and preserved his people even until now; and behold, it is because of our iniquities and abominations that he has brought us into bondage.

25 For if this people had not fallen into transgression the Lord would not have suffered that this great evil should come upon them. But behold, they would not hearken unto his words; but there arose contentions among them, even so much that they did shed blood among themselves.

26 And a prophet of the Lord have they slain; yea, a chosen man of God, who told them of their wickedness and abominations, and prophesied of many things which are to come, yea, even the coming of Christ.

27 And because he said unto them that Christ was the God, the Father of all things, and said that he should take upon him the image of man, and it should be the image after which man was created in the beginning; or in other words, he said that man was created after the image of God, and that God should come down among the children of men, and take upon him flesh and blood, and go forth upon the face of the earth—

28 And now, because he said this, they did put him to death; and many more things did they do which brought down the wrath of God upon them. Therefore, who wondereth that they are in bondage, and that they are smitten with sore afflictions?




Thats a few, for starters.

Lol well i guess i should have been clearer , prove those things only from the ot ?

I don't believe in any prophets, that are not mentioned in the ot until i have good reason to.

[DispensationalJim]

Dear Koushi, may I please remind you again of your recommendation to everyone?

Go ask the leader of the congregation you subsribe to to show you what God says about it.

So, Koushi, if your leader says to worship him or to pray to the man in the moon or to serve Baal, etc., etc., you will follow him regardless?

Don't you believe we are responsible as individuals to find out THE TRUTH from the ABSOLUTE AUTHORITY?

What are YOUR qualifications to tell us how to live our lives? I gave a few of mine. Now I would like to hear why we should consider your advice as being worthy of consideration.

[Koushi Shinigami]

Dear Koushi, may I please remind you again of your recommendation to everyone?



So, Koushi, if your leader says to worship him or to pray to the man in the moon or to serve Baal, etc., etc., you will follow him regardless?

Don't you believe we are responsible as individuals to find out THE TRUTH from the ABSOLUTE AUTHORITY?

What are YOUR qualifications to tell us how to live our lives? I gave a few of mine. Now I would like to hear why we should consider your advice as being worthy of consideration.



:)):)):)):)):))


Oh my God!!!!! That's funny. I've basically said to live your life the way you see fit, and you want to argue with me that it's not correct, and that I have NO RIGHT to tell you to live your life the way you want to. PRICELESS!!!!!!


:)):)):)):)):))


Tell me. Would you check out a regligion, decide it teaches what you believe, join, and then start aguing with the leaders of that religion that they are doing it wrong?

And what in your long list of credentials qualifies you to tell me what I should believe.

Please sit down. I can't see God with you standing in front of me beating your own chest about your qualifications.

[Reeder]

Lol well i guess i should have been clearer , prove those things only from the ot ?

I figured thats what you wanted. I wanted to play the rebel. :angel:


I don't believe in any prophets, that are not mentioned in the ot until i have good reason to.

That is, of course, the barrier separating our beliefs. I believe in the Prophets/Apostles spoken of in the NT, as well as the BoM - you don't. We won't really get anywhere fast if we can't agree on those points.

[DispensationalJim]

Tell me. Would you check out a regligion, decide it teaches what you believe, join, and then start aguing with the leaders of that religion that they are doing it wrong?

And what in your long list of credentials qualifies you to tell me what I should believe.


Oh, please forgive me, Koushi, for not making myself clear.

IMO, only God's Word can reliably tell anyone what they need to believe.

And, BTW, I don't believe in "religion" in this Age of Grace. IMO, "religion" by definition requires that the follower of that belief MUST be constantly and consistently DOING just the "right" things to get to Heaven.

My Bible tells me that we are saved today only by grace through faith in Jesus Christ. In other words, one can not get to Heaven through a "religion," but only through a RELATIONSHIP with the Savior, Jesus Christ.

So, Koushi, do you know how to get to Heaven? Don't you want everyone to get there? If you know for sure how to get to Heaven according to what God's Word says, shouldn't you want to tell others?

[Koushi Shinigami]

Oh, please forgive me, Koushi, for not making myself clear.

IMO, only God's Word can reliably tell anyone what they need to believe.

And, BTW, I don't believe in "religion" in this Age of Grace. IMO, "religion" by definition requires that the follower of that belief MUST be constantly and consistently DOING just the "right" things to get to Heaven.

My Bible tells me that we are saved today only by grace through faith in Jesus Christ. In other words, one can not get to Heaven through a "religion," but only through a RELATIONSHIP with the Savior, Jesus Christ.

So, Koushi, do you know how to get to Heaven? Don't you want everyone to get there? If you know for sure how to get to Heaven according to what God's Word says, shouldn't you want to tell others?


:)) :)) :)) :)) :))

You're funny. :D Still taking offense where none was offered. Trying to start a fight where there's no interest.


Go in peace to love and serve the Lord. I pray you find the peace you are looking for.

[Reeder]

:)) :)) :)) :)) :))

You're funny. :D Still taking offense where none was offered. Trying to start a fight where there's no interest.


Go in peace to love and serve the Lord. I pray you find the peace you are looking for.

I didn't see it as DJ trying to start a fight, or taking offense. He was simply telling us his beliefs and asking you specific questions.

[Koushi Shinigami]

I didn't see it as DJ trying to start a fight, or taking offense. He was simply telling us his beliefs and asking you specific questions.


I'll try to read it without imposing a sarcastic tone on it. But the first line doesn't lend itself to a sincere, thoughtful tone.

[Reeder]

I'll try to read it without imposing a sarcastic tone on it. But the first line doesn't lend itself to a sincere, thoughtful tone.

DJ is a very civil poster who is not prone to picking fights. I guess I'm just going off past experience with him. Perhaps he was being sarcastic. Anyway, I didn't mean to jump in the middle of this. Continue, por favor.

[Koushi Shinigami]

DJ is a very civil poster who is not prone to picking fights. I guess I'm just going off past experience with him. Perhaps he was being sarcastic. Anyway, I didn't mean to jump in the middle of this. Continue, por favor.

Looks to me like he's having a bad day.

Look, I said in effect, "follow the tenents of your faith". How can you argue against that? I see now why this thread is 12 thousand + posts long. You guys are just in here to argue -- which is fine, that's usualy what I'm here for.


From his last post, it seems he believes everyone part of an organized religions is hell-bound. Fine Jim. Go with that. And God bless you, your life and all your loved ones. :pray:

[Tucson Jim]

Looks to me like he's having a bad day.

Look, I said in effect, "follow the tenents of your faith". How can you argue against that? I see now why this thread is 12 thousand + posts long. You guys are just in here to argue -- which is fine, that's usualy what I'm here for.


From his last post, it seems he believes everyone part of an organized religions is hell-bound. Fine Jim. Go with that. And God bless you, your life and all your loved ones. :pray:

Naw, he doesn't believe that.

I think you two just got off on a bad foot. Jim's a great guy.

Here, let's start over:

Jim - Koushi

Koushi - Jim

[Tucson Jim]

DJ is a very civil poster who is not prone to picking fights. I guess I'm just going off past experience with him.

I agree, based on a LOT of past experience.

Sometimes he can get teed off, but usually he is one of the most civil posters here.

[Tucson Jim]

Well when God was giving out prophecy pertaining to the messiah, i wonder why he didn't tell us it would take two visits to accomplish .

Does He usually tell us everything about the future? Or just the things He wants us to know?

[Tucson Jim]

Do you think maybe God would have made that known to the Jews ?

It's up to God. Based on the responses of the Jewish folks for the past couple thousand years, apparently not.

[Tucson Jim]

It has nothing to do with God "needing" a Second Coming......that's how its GOING to happen.

Its not like God said "Oops, I forgot a few things. I'd better head back to earth and fulfill the remaining prophesies."

:)) :clap:

[Tucson Jim]

Why a second coming? Why not the first time?

God's universe. I guess He probably wants to do it His way . . .

[Tucson Jim]

Lol well i guess i should have been clearer , prove those things only from the ot ?

I don't believe in any prophets, that are not mentioned in the ot until i have good reason to.

That's right . . . show us how to cook a steak using only the "vegetables" portion of the Betty Crocker cookbook.

[Tucson Jim]

Looks to me like he's having a bad day.

Look, I said in effect, "follow the tenents of your faith". How can you argue against that? I see now why this thread is 12 thousand + posts long. You guys are just in here to argue -- which is fine, that's usualy what I'm here for.


The thread is 12 thousand posts long because WE NEVER GIVE UP!!

[Reeder]

That's right . . . show us how to cook a steak using only the "vegetables" portion of the Betty Crocker cookbook.

:))

[DispensationalJim]

DJ is a very civil poster who is not prone to picking fights. I guess I'm just going off past experience with him. Perhaps he was being sarcastic. Anyway, I didn't mean to jump in the middle of this. Continue, por favor.

Thank you, Reeder.

I guess I WAS being sarcastic to Koushi.

I obviously have a problem with the idea of compromise, which is what I saw in Koushi's statements. Kind of like the "I'm OK, You're OK" philosophy. I just don't agree that we can all be right at the same time.

And I fervently believe that God wants us to be "right in His eyes."

=========================

So, sorry, Koushi. I'll try to watch my sacrasm in the future.

[DispensationalJim]

Looks to me like he's having a bad day.

Look, I said in effect, "follow the tenents of your faith". How can you argue against that? I see now why this thread is 12 thousand + posts long. You guys are just in here to argue -- which is fine, that's usualy what I'm here for.


From his last post, it seems he believes everyone part of an organized religions is hell-bound. Fine Jim. Go with that. And God bless you, your life and all your loved ones. :pray:

Thanks, Koushi. I have been abundantly blessed of God (along with my family) and have known the "peace that passeth all understanding" (Phil.4:7) for many, many years. I know many wonderful believers who are trusting in Christ alone to save them, but who are still "caught up" in the "practices" of their "religion," yet they seem to clearly understand that those works cannot save anyone.

I dislike arguing, but I do see the need for "good" debate from time to time. Our elders find that to be advantageous in our meetings occasionally. Even Paul and Peter had some serious debates in The Book of Acts.

Anyway, Koushi, I hope you too have discovered that peace and love that is found in Christ alone.

[Angryamerican]

:)):)):)):)):))


Oh my God!!!!! That's funny. I've basically said to live your life the way you see fit, and you want to argue with me that it's not correct, and that I have NO RIGHT to tell you to live your life the way you want to. PRICELESS!!!!!!


:)):)):)):)):))


Tell me. Would you check out a regligion, decide it teaches what you believe, join, and then start aguing with the leaders of that religion that they are doing it wrong?

And what in your long list of credentials qualifies you to tell me what I should believe.

Please sit down. I can't see God with you standing in front of me beating your own chest about your qualifications.

Oh maybe 50 years of reading the scriptures might help. so show some respect jr.

[Angryamerican]

Does He usually tell us everything about the future? Or just the things He wants us to know?

Why wouldn't he want us to know important things like your messiah is gonna be put to death
before he brings peace to the world ?

Is it really that hard to figure out, the ot prophecies about the messiah, was meant for the Jews ?

[Angryamerican]

That's right . . . show us how to cook a steak using only the "vegetables" portion of the Betty Crocker cookbook.

Can't do it can you. But we do see the Holy Spirit in action in the ot :razz:

[Poisonshady313]

Person B says to Person C "This is what Person A said".

Person C says "Person A said no such thing"

Person B says "He sure did... and if you don't believe me, just ask Person D"

Why would you turn to Person D to tell you what A said, when you could simply just turn to Person A?

[Angryamerican]

Person B says to Person C "This is what Person A said".

Person C says "Person A said no such thing"

Person B says "He sure did... and if you don't believe me, just ask Person D"

Why would you turn to Person D to tell you what A said, when you could simply just turn to Person A?

I really love your logic . I sure am glad there is only one God .i wouldn't begin to know how to keep up with three gods.

[DRS]

It doesn't not say that. A vision isn't a precise replica of how the future is going to turn out. Daniel isn't John Smith from the dead zone. It's full of symbolism and such.

There will be only one messiah. he will come only once. The method of his coming depends on whether Israel triumphantly merits it, or desperately needs it to survive.

Yet everything else Daniel has seen in vision has come to be including the destruction of Jerusalm

[DRS]

Can anyone here tell us who Christ was in the ot with scripture ?

Can anyone here provide proof Jesus existed in the ot scriptures ?

And do this without needing scripture from the nt to do so. I'll be waiting for your response.

Peoples names get changed in the bible when they get new roles in God's plan like Abram to Abraham,I have shown you many of the similarities between Michael and Jesus and the role they play in the end

[drmilo]

Thanks, Koushi. I have been abundantly blessed of God (along with my family) and have known the "peace that passeth all understanding" (Phil.4:7) for many, many years. I know many wonderful believers who are trusting in Christ alone to save them, but who are still "caught up" in the "practices" of their "religion," yet they seem to clearly understand that those works cannot save anyone.

I dislike arguing, but I do see the need for "good" debate from time to time. Our elders find that to be advantageous in our meetings occasionally. Even Paul and Peter had some serious debates in The Book of Acts.

Anyway, Koushi, I hope you too have discovered that peace and love that is found in Christ alone.

As a Catholic, I believe that we are saved, first and foremost, by the Grace of God. Without the Grace of God, purchased for us by the sacrafice of Jesus, we cannot be saved. However, once we have entered into God's grace, we must live our lives as Jesus taught us. He came not only to save us from our sins, but to teach us how to live our lives in accordance with God's will. Therefore, our salvation comes from grace. But, we can't just rely on grace alone, believe we're saved, and go out and do things contrary to what Christ taught us in his ministry. We are expected to continue the works of Christ. We are called to do that through the grace of His salvation.

The "tenents" of my religion is not to do works so that we "can be saved" but to remind, and give us the means to worship and do the works Christ calls us to do through his ministry. First, before we ever engage in any of this, we are saved through the grace of God.

[drmilo]

Why wouldn't he want us to know important things like your messiah is gonna be put to death
before he brings peace to the world ?

Is it really that hard to figure out, the ot prophecies about the messiah, was meant for the Jews ?

AA -- when I read the prophecies of the Messiah, I am struck with the impression that all he is to accomplish can't possibly be accomplished in a single "coming" for too many things are contradictory. DRS brought up one, with messiah coming on a donkey and in the clouds. Isaiah, I believe, does describe the death of the messiah -- and yet, we also see messiah ushering in a kingdom of peace.

[drmilo]

I really love your logic . I sure am glad there is only one God .i wouldn't begin to know how to keep up with three gods.

I'm not going to let a mischaracterization stand, AA.

Trinitarians DO NOT HAVE THREE GODS.

[Angryamerican]

I'm not going to let a mischaracterization stand, AA.

Trinitarians DO NOT HAVE THREE GODS.

1+1+1 does not add up to one to me sorry. Which one do you worship ? What is your Gods name ?

[drmilo]

1+1+1 does not add up to one to me sorry. Which one do you worship ? What is your Gods name ?

When I worship, I worship God. I understand that when I worship God, I am addressing the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. I have a relationshp with the Son through the blessings of the Holy Spirit, which dwells within me (us) -- I have relationship with the Father through the Son, who I understand because he was once a human and understands me who is human. But I worship the ONE GOD: Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

[Koushi Shinigami]

Oh maybe 50 years of reading the scriptures might help. so show some respect jr.

No. I really don't care how long he's been studying. :razz:

His first post to me showed nothing but the side where the Good Lord split him. Respect is earned, not demanded. Should he decide to continue in the tone of his last post to me, I can be more civil. However, first impressions being waht they are, it will be difficult for him to get much respect from me for his opinions as to what I should believe.

[DRS]

When I worship, I worship God. I understand that when I worship God, I am addressing the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. I have a relationshp with the Son through the blessings of the Holy Spirit, which dwells within me (us) -- I have relationship with the Father through the Son, who I understand because he was once a human and understands me who is human. But I worship the ONE GOD: Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

Okay just to make this clear

Is Jehovah God?

Is Jesus God?

Is the holy Spirit God?

[Koushi Shinigami]

The thread is 12 thousand posts long because WE NEVER GIVE UP!!

:)) :)) :))

Definition of insanity: Doing the same thing over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over again, expecting different results.

[drmilo]

Okay just to make this clear

Is Jehovah God?

Yes

Is Jesus God?

Yes

Is the holy Spirit God?

Yes.

They are all the SAME GOD. Three separate persons, but all the SAME GOD.

[Koushi Shinigami]

Thank you, Reeder.

I guess I WAS being sarcastic to Koushi.

Ya THINK? :rolleyes: (yes, that's sarcasm. :razz: :)) )




I obviously have a problem with the idea of compromise, which is what I saw in Koushi's statements. Kind of like the "I'm OK, You're OK" philosophy. I just don't agree that we can all be right at the same time.

And I fervently believe that God wants us to be "right in His eyes."

=========================

40,000 Protestant denominations, many flavors of Catholicism, all those versions of Baptistism, several sects of Judiasm, all the people going it alone with a Bible, and only one of that group is correct?



So, sorry, Koushi. I'll try to watch my sacrasm in the future.


Thankyou.



Thanks, Koushi.



You're welcome.


Anyway, Koushi, I hope you too have discovered that peace and love that is found in Christ alone.

I have.

[DispensationalJim]

As a Catholic, I believe that we are saved, first and foremost, by the Grace of God. Without the Grace of God, purchased for us by the sacrafice of Jesus, we cannot be saved. However, once we have entered into God's grace, we must live our lives as Jesus taught us. He came not only to save us from our sins, but to teach us how to live our lives in accordance with God's will. Therefore, our salvation comes from grace. But, we can't just rely on grace alone, believe we're saved, and go out and do things contrary to what Christ taught us in his ministry. We are expected to continue the works of Christ. We are called to do that through the grace of His salvation.

The "tenents" of my religion is not to do works so that we "can be saved" but to remind, and give us the means to worship and do the works Christ calls us to do through his ministry. First, before we ever engage in any of this, we are saved through the grace of God.

Thank you, drmilo, for that thoughtful and well-worded response.

I absolutely agree that a "true believer" WILL do good works, but IMO those works will be as a RESULT of ALREADY BEING SAVED as opposed to the idea of works TO REMAIN SAVED. Of course, that gets us into the "once saved..." issue, which was another long and drawn out thread some time back on here, so I will just quote my favorite passage in that regard, and leave it at that...
• Eph. 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

[DispensationalJim]

Ya THINK? :rolleyes: (yes, that's sarcasm. :razz: :)) )

40,000 Protestant denominations, many flavors of Catholicism, all those versions of Baptistism, several sects of Judiasm, all the people going it alone with a Bible, and only one of that group is correct?

Thankyou.

You're welcome.

I have.

Well, praise the Lord (and pass the ammunition!) :)

[DRS]

Yes



Yes



Yes.

They are all the SAME GOD. Three separate persons, but all the SAME GOD.

But you see I asked you about 3 seperate things

Are you trying to say god is a team?

[Tucson Jim]

Why wouldn't he want us to know important things like your messiah is gonna be put to death
before he brings peace to the world ?

Is it really that hard to figure out, the ot prophecies about the messiah, was meant for the Jews ?

No harder than it is to figure out that God does things His way, in His time frame.

And He did tell us about the Messiah being put to death - it's in that part of the Book you don't believe . . .:whistle:

[Tucson Jim]

I really love your logic . I sure am glad there is only one God .i wouldn't begin to know how to keep up with three gods.

Neither would I . . .

[Poisonshady313]

You can't claim that Jesus' coming was fulfillment of old testament prophecy when you say, when asked where does it say in the old testament, that it's not in the old testament.

Does anyone else understand this?

[Tucson Jim]

:)) :)) :))

Definition of insanity: Doing the same thing over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over again, expecting different results.

Wait . . . you mean . . .

:think::confused::doh::eek::eek::eek:

[Tucson Jim]

1+1+1 does not add up to one to me sorry.

Ah, but 1X1X1 does equal one. Think about THAT for awhile! :think::think::think:

[Tucson Jim]

Yes



Yes



Yes.

They are all the SAME GOD. Three separate persons, but all the SAME GOD.

EXACT-I-MUNDO!

[Tucson Jim]

You can't claim that Jesus' coming was fulfillment of old testament prophecy when you say, when asked where does it say in the old testament, that it's not in the old testament.

Does anyone else understand this?

Nuther thread Poison . . . nuther thread.

[Angryamerican]

When I worship, I worship God. I understand that when I worship God, I am addressing the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. I have a relationshp with the Son through the blessings of the Holy Spirit, which dwells within me (us) -- I have relationship with the Father through the Son, who I understand because he was once a human and understands me who is human. But I worship the ONE GOD: Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

Your God does he have a name ?

[Poisonshady313]

Ah, but 1X1X1 does equal one. Think about THAT for awhile! :think::think::think:

1 x 3 = 3

[Poisonshady313]

Every time I hear someone say "One God in three persons"...

It's like hearing someone say "One foot in 12 inches".

God is not a sum of the parts of anything. God is one. Not three.

[drmilo]

But you see I asked you about 3 seperate things

Are you trying to say god is a team?

As I see it, you asked me about the three separate persons who make up the One True God. You did not ask me about a "thing" at all.

[Angryamerican]

Ah, but 1X1X1 does equal one. Think about THAT for awhile! :think::think::think:

No need to, If you have three apples in your hands how many apples do you have ?

[Tucson Jim]

1 x 3 = 3

That's also true . . .

[Tucson Jim]

Every time I hear someone say "One God in three persons"...

It's like hearing someone say "One foot in 12 inches".

God is not a sum of the parts of anything. God is one. Not three.

Yes, God is one.

[Tucson Jim]

No need to, If you have three apples in your hands how many apples do you have ?

Um . . .wait, that's a hard one . . .give me a minute :think:. . .Ooh, I know, it's 3!

But what does this have to do with the Trinity? :confused:

[Poisonshady313]

Um . . .wait, that's a hard one . . .give me a minute :think:. . .Ooh, I know, it's 3!

But what does this have to do with the Trinity? :confused:

Father. One apple.
Son. Another apple.
Spirit. Yet another apple.

You agree that 3 = 3 in every instance except when it comes to the three "persons" of the trinity.

[HardHammer]

Thank you, drmilo, for that thoughtful and well-worded response.

I absolutely agree that a "true believer" WILL do good works, but IMO those works will be as a RESULT of ALREADY BEING SAVED as opposed to the idea of works TO REMAIN SAVED. Of course, that gets us into the "once saved..." issue, which was another long and drawn out thread some time back on here, so I will just quote my favorite passage in that regard, and leave it at that...
• Eph. 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Dr.M and DJim, most excellent, those good works one may do should be solely of His will for us and those we help, to make claim of those works of our doing, indeed, usurps the Authority of Him who gave us salvation. There is no good in us to be done, only by His Will in us can Good Works be done.

[Tucson Jim]

Father. One apple.
Son. Another apple.
Spirit. Yet another apple.

You agree that 3 = 3 in every instance except when it comes to the three "persons" of the trinity.

Yep. God is allowed to be different from His creation.

Don't you ever sleep? Why am I still here at midnight?

[Angryamerican]

Um . . .wait, that's a hard one . . .give me a minute :think:. . .Ooh, I know, it's 3!

But what does this have to do with the Trinity? :confused:

3 persons equal three persons. Unless of course you have a person suffering from multiple personalities.

Definition of Multiple personality disorder

Multiple personality disorder: A neurosis in which the personality becomes dissociated into two or more distinct parts each of which becomes dominant and controls behavior from time to time to the exclusion of the other parts.

Sound familiar ?

[Poisonshady313]

Yep. God is allowed to be different from His creation.

Don't you ever sleep? Why am I still here at midnight?

God is different than His creation in that He is unique in being absolutely one.

A foot is divided into 12 inches. You cannot divide God.

A jury is divided into 12 members. You cannot divide God.

Water is divided into Hydrogen and Oxygen. You cannot divide God.

To divide God into three persons is the height of blasphemy... the essence of polytheism.

[Angryamerican]

Father. One apple.
Son. Another apple.
Spirit. Yet another apple.

You agree that 3 = 3 in every instance except when it comes to the three "persons" of the trinity.

:clap::clap::)):))

[37818]

I really love your logic . I sure am glad there is only one God .i wouldn't begin to know how to keep up with three gods.Tritheism is the belief in three Gods. The Trinity teaching is a belief in ONE God.

"And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them." -- Genesis 1:26, 27.

"Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:" -- Deuteronomy 6:4.

". . . know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me. I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour." -- Isaiah 43:10, 11.

"All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all. . . . because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors." -- Isaiah 53:6, . . .12.

[Poisonshady313]

Tritheism is the belief in three Gods. The Trinity teaching is a belief in ONE God.

"And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them." -- Genesis 1:26, 27.


Targum Yonasan paraphrases: "And God said to the ministering angels who had been created on the second day of the creation of the world, 'Let us make Man.'"

When Moses wrote the Torah and came to this verse (let us make), which is in the plural and implies (God forbid) that there is more than one Creator, he said "Sovereign of the Universe! Why do You thus furnish a pretext for heretics to maintain that there is a plurality of divinities?" "Write!" God replied.
"Whoever wishes to err will err... Instead, let them learn from their Creator Who created all, yet when He came to create Man He took counsel with the ministering angels." (Midrash). Thus God taught that one should always consult others before embarking upon major new initiatives, and He was not deterred by the possibility that some might choose to find a sacrilegious implication in the verse. The implication of God's response, "Whoever wishes to err," is that one who sincerely seeks the truth will see it; one who looks for an excuse to blaspheme will find it.

[37818]

God is different than His creation in that He is unique in being absolutely one.

A foot is divided into 12 inches. You cannot divide God.

A jury is divided into 12 members. You cannot divide God.

Water is divided into Hydrogen and Oxygen. You cannot divide God.

To divide God into three persons is the height of blasphemy... the essence of polytheism.

Very well put. God is not divided. You can believe that the idea of God being persons is blasphemy. But undersand if you can, persons are not gods - ever. Now if there are Persons who happen to be the one true God that cannot and does not make a one true God divided. You think that it does - but you don't grasp the concept of the Trinity at all. You don't have to agree with it. But that concept, missrepresented by many who disagree with it, does exist. The concept of One God who is three Persons and three Persosn who are the One God.

[37818]

Targum Yonasan paraphrases: "And God said to the ministering angels who had been created on the second day of the creation of the world, 'Let us make Man.'"

When Moses wrote the Torah and came to this verse (let us make), which is in the plural and implies (God forbid) that there is more than one Creator, he said "Sovereign of the Universe! Why do You thus furnish a pretext for heretics to maintain that there is a plurality of divinities?" "Write!" God replied.
"Whoever wishes to err will err... Instead, let them learn from their Creator Who created all, yet when He came to create Man He took counsel with the ministering angels." (Midrash). Thus God taught that one should always consult others before embarking upon major new initiatives, and He was not deterred by the possibility that some might choose to find a sacrilegious implication in the verse. The implication of God's response, "Whoever wishes to err," is that one who sincerely seeks the truth will see it; one who looks for an excuse to blaspheme will find it.

So are you arguing that Angels are in the image of God with God? "Let us make man in our image" The common Hebrew transalated God is in the plural in the Hebrew. I think you know that.

"Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:" Tritheists who do not understand Hebrew grammer would have that translated, "Hear, O Israel: The LORD our Gods [are] one LORD:"

[Poisonshady313]

Very well put. God is not divided. You can believe that the idea of God being persons is blasphemy. But undersand if you can, persons are not gods - ever. Now if there are Persons who happen to be the one true God that cannot and does not make a one true God divided. You think that it does - but you don't grasp the concept of the Trinity at all. You don't have to agree with it. But that concept, missrepresented by many who disagree with it, does exist. The concept of One God who is three Persons and three Persosn who are the One God.

If grasping the trinity means buying the notion that any number of "Persons" add up to God, then I want none of it, because it means a fundamental rejection of what true monotheists know to be an incorporeal, unique, singular God.

You want to tell me I don't grasp the concept of the Trinity. Fine. I'll grant you that.

In turn, I'll tell you that you don't grasp the concept of monotheism. You can disagree, but the concept, misrepresented by those who believe in the trinity, does exist.

[Poisonshady313]

"Let us make man in our image" The common Hebrew transalated God is in the plural in the Hebrew. I think you know that. That's just an idiomatic function of the langauge. There are many words that are written in a plural form but are not actually plural.

Plus, when the word is used to refer to Moses, would you suggest that Moses became plural at any point?

It's a language thing. To point to the word "elohim" and decide there is more than one God is a product of ignorance and sloppiness.

Hebrew is Abe's first language. Ask him about it.

"Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:" Tritheists who do not understand Hebrew grammer would have that translated, "Hear, O Israel: The LORD our Gods [are] one LORD:"

Instead, people who call themselves "Trinitarians" suggest that the word "echad" implies a compound unity. That's rubbish. 1 is 1. Which is to say, less than 2.

What Tritheists do is multiply God.
Trinitarians divide God.
Monotheists know that God is one.

[37818]

What Paul wrote es future the last enemy death has not been defeated yet
Moses was made god to Aaron and Pharoah and so Jesus was made god to other just as prophecied but that does not make him Almighty because it was not his authority now was it his will

First do you understand that Moses was not made a god? For God said, "before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me." (Isaiah 43:10.)

"And the LORD said unto Moses: 'See, I have set thee in God's stead to Pharaoh; and Aaron thy brother shall be thy prophet." -- Exodus 7:1. Jewish Publication Society 1917

" And Jehovah said unto Moses, See, I have made thee as God to Pharaoh; and Aaron thy brother shall be thy prophet." -- Exodus 7:1. ASV.

So IF the Lord Jesus Christ is NOT God and was made to be as God to all creation in his pre-existence. (Genesis 1:1; John 1:3.) Then pragmatically, unless one approaches the Lord Jesus AS God (John 5:23; John 14:6) one does not have access to God even as the Pharoah was made to go through Moses by God to come to Him.

[37818]

<snip>

Instead, people who call themselves "Trinitarians" suggest that the word "echad" implies a compound unity. That's rubbish. 1 is 1. Which is to say, less than 2.

What Tritheists do is multiply God.
Trinitarians divide God.
Monotheists know that God is one.You are either not honest or willingly ingnorant regarding the trinitarian belief in ONE God.

Tritheists multipy God. Not Trintarians. Get your facts right.

As for "echad" it is written, "they shall be one flesh." -- Genesis 2:24. and "one cluster of grapes." -- Numbers 13:23. You don't undestand trinitarian concepts. Understanding them does not mean you have to agree or believe in it.

[Poisonshady313]

Tritheists multipy God. That's what I said. Not Trintarians. Get your facts right. I've got my facts right.

As for "echad" it is written, "they shall be one flesh." -- Genesis 2:24. and "one cluster of grapes." -- Numbers 13:23.

Key words to look at.. "they". The word "they" dictates how "one" is going to be used.

"cluster". the word cluster signifies a compound entity... NOT THE NUMBER 1.

You don't undestand trinitarian concepts.

If you say so.

[Tucson Jim]

3 persons equal three persons.

God is unique, wouldn't you agree?

Unless of course you have a person suffering from multiple personalities.

Definition of Multiple personality disorder

Multiple personality disorder: A neurosis in which the personality becomes dissociated into two or more distinct parts each of which becomes dominant and controls behavior from time to time to the exclusion of the other parts.

Sound familiar ?

Ah, slipping into the sarcasm and ridicule sometimes used by DRS I see.

I hope that made you feel good . . .

[Tucson Jim]

God is different than His creation in that He is unique in being absolutely one.

A foot is divided into 12 inches. You cannot divide God.

A jury is divided into 12 members. You cannot divide God.

Water is divided into Hydrogen and Oxygen. You cannot divide God.

To divide God into three persons is the height of blasphemy... the essence of polytheism.

Do you have any scripture to back up your opinion?

[Tucson Jim]

Targum Yonasan paraphrases: "And God said to the ministering angels who had been created on the second day of the creation of the world, 'Let us make Man.'"

When Moses wrote the Torah and came to this verse (let us make), which is in the plural and implies (God forbid) that there is more than one Creator, he said "Sovereign of the Universe! Why do You thus furnish a pretext for heretics to maintain that there is a plurality of divinities?" "Write!" God replied.
"Whoever wishes to err will err... Instead, let them learn from their Creator Who created all, yet when He came to create Man He took counsel with the ministering angels." (Midrash). Thus God taught that one should always consult others before embarking upon major new initiatives, and He was not deterred by the possibility that some might choose to find a sacrilegious implication in the verse. The implication of God's response, "Whoever wishes to err," is that one who sincerely seeks the truth will see it; one who looks for an excuse to blaspheme will find it.

How utterly condescending of you.

So all Christians are just lookin for a reason to blaspheme.

You should be ashamed of yourself.

[Tucson Jim]

If grasping the trinity means buying the notion that any number of "Persons" add up to God, then I want none of it, because it means a fundamental rejection of what true monotheists know to be an incorporeal, unique, singular God.

You want to tell me I don't grasp the concept of the Trinity. Fine. I'll grant you that.

In turn, I'll tell you that you don't grasp the concept of monotheism. You can disagree, but the concept, misrepresented by those who believe in the trinity, does exist.

"True monotheists"?

More arrogance and putting down the faith of others Poison?

[Tucson Jim]

That's just an idiomatic function of the langauge. There are many words that are written in a plural form but are not actually plural.

Plus, when the word is used to refer to Moses, would you suggest that Moses became plural at any point?

It's a language thing. To point to the word "elohim" and decide there is more than one God is a product of ignorance and sloppiness.

Hebrew is Abe's first language. Ask him about it.



Instead, people who call themselves "Trinitarians" suggest that the word "echad" implies a compound unity. That's rubbish. 1 is 1. Which is to say, less than 2.

What Tritheists do is multiply God.
Trinitarians divide God.
Monotheists know that God is one.

Trinitarians are monotheists, despite your opinions.

[Angryamerican]

God is unique, wouldn't you agree?



Ah, slipping into the sarcasm and ridicule sometimes used by DRS I see.

I hope that made you feel good . . .

God is unique, He alone is most high.

I just think you needed to see the similarity . Then you look at all the other gods that were worshiped in threes, they are no different.

Not trying to be that way i turned over a new leaf :angel:

[Tucson Jim]

God is unique, He alone is most high.

I just think you needed to see the similarity . Then you look at all the other gods that were worshiped in threes, they are no different.

Not trying to be that way i turned over a new leaf :angel:

I was ready to believe you until I read your next post . . .

[Tucson Jim]

Come on,ou have no idea what a monotheists is ,if you believe God is a trinity please.

And you, despite reading thousands of posts on the topic, still have no clue what Trinity means.

Truly astounding . . .

Or just refer to personality disorder until you get it.

Mock the beliefs of others all you want. Everyone is watching . . .

[Fire Watch]

And you, despite reading thousands of posts on the topic, still have no clue what Trinity means.

Truly astounding . . .



Mock the beliefs of others all you want. Everyone is watching . . .
Yeah, me included. Anymore and he's removed from this forum.

[DRS]

First do you understand that Moses was not made a god? For God said, "before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me." (Isaiah 43:10.)

"And the LORD said unto Moses: 'See, I have set thee in God's stead to Pharaoh; and Aaron thy brother shall be thy prophet." -- Exodus 7:1. Jewish Publication Society 1917

" And Jehovah said unto Moses, See, I have made thee as God to Pharaoh; and Aaron thy brother shall be thy prophet." -- Exodus 7:1. ASV.

So IF the Lord Jesus Christ is NOT God and was made to be as God to all creation in his pre-existence. (Genesis 1:1; John 1:3.) Then pragmatically, unless one approaches the Lord Jesus AS God (John 5:23; John 14:6) one does not have access to God even as the Pharoah was made to go through Moses by God to come to Him.

Jesus was not made god in a prehuman existence he God raised to a higher position but God made him a little lower than the god like ones when He sent him here

[DRS]

As I see it, you asked me about the three separate persons who make up the One True God. You did not ask me about a "thing" at all.

The spirit is not a person, has no name as is there through out the bible called God's spirit

Are you trying to say God is a team?

[Reeder]

Jesus was not made god in a prehuman existence ...... <snip>

1 Peter Chapter 1

18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;

19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:

20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,



Christ was foreordained to be our Savior and the Creator of the world in the premortal existence.

[Angryamerican]

And you, despite reading thousands of posts on the topic, still have no clue what Trinity means.

Truly astounding . . .



Mock the beliefs of others all you want. Everyone is watching . . .

Ok sorry jim. And anyone else i may have offended.

[Reeder]

The spirit is not a person, has no name as is there through out the bible called God's spirit

Are you trying to say God is a team?

I'll tell you why I believe the Spirit IS a person:

D&C 130: 22

22 ......the Holy Ghost has not a body of flesh and bones, but is a personage of Spirit. Were it not so, the Holy Ghost could not dwell in us.

[DRS]

1 Peter Chapter 1

18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;

19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:

20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,



Christ was foreordained to be our Savior and the Creator of the world in the premortal existence.

I am not saying He was not given a job at the fall, Genesis outlines that

[Reeder]

I am not saying He was not given a job at the fall, Genesis outlines that

So you believe that Jesus was not God in His premortal life.......He was just "given a job?"

[DRS]

I'll tell you why I believe the Spirit IS a person:

D&C 130: 22

22 ......the Holy Ghost has not a body of flesh and bones, but is a personage of Spirit. Were it not so, the Holy Ghost could not dwell in us.

If you study the hebrew word for it and how it is used in other things you would see it is not a person, besides as important persons in the bible have a name, for in stance Jehovah-is the almighty Jesus is his servent His high priest the king who sits on the throne ordainded by Him

[DRS]

So you believe that Jesus was not God in His premortal life.......He was just "given a job?"

No there is only one Almighty God

Satan leading mankind into rebellion called for a needed intervention

[Reeder]

If you study the hebrew word for it and how it is used in other things you would see it is not a person, besides as important persons in the bible have a name, for in stance Jehovah-is the almighty Jesus is his servent His high priest the king who sits on the throne ordainded by Him

I'm not as interested in hebrew words as I am in modern-day revelation. And I disagree that Jesus is Jehovah's servant. Jesus IS Jehovah.

[DRS]

I'm not as interested in hebrew words as I am in modern-day revelation. And I disagree that Jesus is Jehovah's servant. Jesus IS Jehovah.

If Jesus is Jehovah who is Jehovah speaking to here?

(Psalm 110:1) The utterance of Jehovah to my Lord is: “Sit at my right hand Until I place your enemies as a stool for your feet.”

who was it that Jehovah crused?

10*But Jehovah himself took delight in crushing him; he made him sick. If you will set his soul as a guilt offering, he will see his offspring, he will prolong [his] days, and in his hand what is the delight of Jehovah will succeed. 11*Because of the trouble of his soul he will see, he will be satisfied. By means of his knowledge the righteous one, my servant, will bring a righteous standing to many people; and their errors he himself will bear. 12*For that reason I shall deal him a portion among the many, and it will be with the mighty ones that he will apportion the spoil, due to the fact that he poured out his soul to the very death, and it was with the transgressors that he was counted in; and he himself carried the very sin of many people, and for the transgressors he proceeded to interpose.

[Reeder]

If Jesus is Jehovah who is Jehovah speaking to here?

(Psalm 110:1) The utterance of Jehovah to my Lord is: “Sit at my right hand Until I place your enemies as a stool for your feet.”

Psalm 110 is a Messianic Psalm of David. Christ shall sit on the Lord’s (Father's) right hand. This phrasing is consistent with many scriptures found in the NT, the BoM, and other inspired text. Christ will sit (is sitting) at the right hand of the Father.



who was it that Jehovah crused?

10*But Jehovah himself took delight in crushing him; he made him sick. If you will set his soul as a guilt offering, he will see his offspring, he will prolong [his] days, and in his hand what is the delight of Jehovah will succeed. 11*Because of the trouble of his soul he will see, he will be satisfied. By means of his knowledge the righteous one, my servant, will bring a righteous standing to many people; and their errors he himself will bear. 12*For that reason I shall deal him a portion among the many, and it will be with the mighty ones that he will apportion the spoil, due to the fact that he poured out his soul to the very death, and it was with the transgressors that he was counted in; and he himself carried the very sin of many people, and for the transgressors he proceeded to interpose.


I have no idea what scripture you're referencing. Either way, whatever you're question is, I'm sure my answer will be the same as above.

[Angryamerican]

No there is only one Almighty God

Satan leading mankind into rebellion called for a needed intervention

When did the rebellion occur ?

[DRS]

When did the rebellion occur ?

When Adam and Eve decided they did not need to be obedient to God

[DRS]

Psalm 110 is a Messianic Psalm of David. Christ shall sit on the Lord’s (Father's) right hand. This phrasing is consistent with many scriptures found in the NT, the BoM, and other inspired text. Christ will sit (is sitting) at the right hand of the Father.



The scripture clearly shows Jehovah is speaking to someone else, and Jesus identifies that person being spoke to as himself

[Reeder]

The scripture clearly shows Jehovah is speaking to someone else, and Jesus identifies that person being spoke to as himself

Huh?

[DRS]

Huh?

In psalm 110 Jehovah is speaking to Jesus you can not speak to another person if you are the same person

Jesus said he was the one being spoken to

[Reeder]

In psalm 110 Jehovah is speaking to Jesus you can not speak to another person if you are the same person

Jesus said he was the one being spoken to

The name "Jesus" isn't even mentioned in that entire chapter (or the entire OT, for that matter).

The scripture does not say "Jehovah spoke to Jesus....."

[DRS]

The name "Jesus" isn't even mentioned in that entire chapter (or the entire OT, for that matter).

The scripture does not say "Jehovah spoke to Jesus....."

What does Matthew 22:41-45 say?

[Tucson Jim]

Yeah, me included. Anymore and he's removed from this forum.

Thanks Fire Watch.

I'm sure you saw that he apologized.

For whatever it's worth, I think AA has been much more respectful since returning, except for the couple of posts today.

[Tucson Jim]

Jesus was not made god in a prehuman existence he God raised to a higher position but God made him a little lower than the god like ones when He sent him here

I agree He was "not made god in a prehuman existence" - He was already God prior to human existence!

[Tucson Jim]

Ok sorry jim. And anyone else i may have offended.

Thanks AA, I appreciate that.

[Tucson Jim]

If you study the hebrew word for it and how it is used in other things you would see it is not a person, besides as important persons in the bible have a name, for in stance Jehovah-is the almighty Jesus is his servent His high priest the king who sits on the throne ordainded by Him

The Holy Spirit has a name - YHWH.

[Poisonshady313]

Psalm 110 is a Messianic Psalm of David.

No :wall: it's :wall: not.

Whew. Ok. All better. Had to get that one out of my system. Continue talking about whatever you were talking about.

[Poisonshady313]

The name "Jesus" isn't even mentioned in that entire chapter (or the entire OT, for that matter).

The scripture does not say "Jehovah spoke to Jesus....."

In one post you said:

Psalm 110 is a Messianic Psalm of David. Christ shall sit on the Lord’s (Father's) right hand. This phrasing is consistent with many scriptures found in the NT, the BoM, and other inspired text. Christ will sit (is sitting) at the right hand of the Father.

In another post you said:

Jesus IS Jehovah.


Assuming that you, as a Christian, believe that "Jesus" is "Christ"... and that as you said, "Jesus" is "Jehovah",

How can someone sit at the right hand of themselves? How can you say "Christ shall sit on the Fathers right hand" if you believe that "Christ" IS the Father?

[drmilo]

The spirit is not a person, has no name as is there through out the bible called God's spirit

Are you trying to say God is a team?

If a baby is born to two parents, and they do not name him. Is that baby not a person because he has no name?

No. God is not a team. God is one. God is a unique being, beyond our understanding or experience. Scriptures describe three persons (the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit) as God. Therefore, we believe that the nature of God, which we humans have never experienced, thus cannot truely comprehend fully, is triune.

[Tucson Jim]

In one post you said:

Psalm 110 is a Messianic Psalm of David. Christ shall sit on the Lord’s (Father's) right hand. This phrasing is consistent with many scriptures found in the NT, the BoM, and other inspired text. Christ will sit (is sitting) at the right hand of the Father.

In another post you said:




Assuming that you, as a Christian, believe that "Jesus" is "Christ"... and that as you said, "Jesus" is "Jehovah",

How can someone sit at the right hand of themselves? How can you say "Christ shall sit on the Fathers right hand" if you believe that "Christ" IS the Father?

Reflects a serious misunderstanding of the Trinity.

Do some research . . . please.

[Tucson Jim]

If a baby is born to two parents, and they do not name him. Is that baby not a person because he has no name?

No. God is not a team. God is one. God is a unique being, beyond our understanding or experience. Scriptures describe three persons (the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit) as God. Therefore, we believe that the nature of God, which we humans have never experienced, thus cannot truely comprehend fully, is triune.

Excellent! :clap:

[Warrior4God]

If a baby is born to two parents, and they do not name him. Is that baby not a person because he has no name?

No. God is not a team. God is one. God is a unique being, beyond our understanding or experience. Scriptures describe three persons (the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit) as God. Therefore, we believe that the nature of God, which we humans have never experienced, thus cannot truely comprehend fully, is triune.

Too bad you were not around to fill Jesus in on this.............he thought he was Gods Son sent by God.

How is it Jesus is wrong and you are right?

I will stick with who Jesus says he was.

[Poisonshady313]

If a baby is born to two parents, and they do not name him. Is that baby not a person because he has no name?

No. God is not a team. God is one. God is a unique being, beyond our understanding or experience. Scriptures describe three persons (the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit) as God. Therefore, we believe that the nature of God, which we humans have never experienced, thus cannot truely comprehend fully, is triune.

Translation:

God is one. God is three. God is three in one.

Don't bother trying to figure it out, 'cause nobody really knows.

:wall:

[Tucson Jim]

Too bad you were not around to fill Jesus in on this.............he thought he was Gods Son sent by God.

How is it Jesus is wrong and you are right?

I will stick with who Jesus says he was.

You'll stick with YOUR INTERPRETATION of what Jesus said.
He is The Son of the Father. He is also God.

[Tucson Jim]

Translation:

God is one. God is three. God is three in one.

Don't bother trying to figure it out, 'cause nobody really knows.

:wall:

No, God is One.

You should know that.

[Poisonshady313]

You'll stick with YOUR INTERPRETATION of what Jesus said.
He is The Son of the Father. He is also God.
If you weren't serious, I'd think this this was a comedy routine.

[Poisonshady313]

No, God is One.

You should know that.

I do know that... but you keep bringing up "three persons"

[Warrior4God]

There are many many verses showing Jesus as the Son and that his God is his Father and not one verse showing the formula used to describe a trinity except for a couple of corrupted verses which man thought he should corrupt to help us along.

Jesus described God and described who he was...........and he not once described himself as God or part of a trinity did he?

[Tucson Jim]

If you weren't serious, I'd think this this was a comedy routine.

The joke's on you . . .

[Poisonshady313]

The joke's on you . . .

:rolleyes:

[Tucson Jim]

There are many many verses showing Jesus as the Son and that his God is his Father and not one verse showing the formula used to describe a trinity except for a couple of corrupted verses which man thought he should corrupt to help us along.

:)) This from someone who religiously quotes the opinions of men from the biblicalunitarian site!

Jesus described God and described who he was...........and he not once described himself as God or part of a trinity did he?

I guess you forgot to read the rest of the Bible!

I see a lot of that from critics of the Trinity . . .

[Tucson Jim]

I do know that... but you keep bringing up "three persons"

One God. You like to overlook that part.

[Warrior4God]

You'll stick with YOUR INTERPRETATION of what Jesus said.
He is The Son of the Father. He is also God.

Jesus's words need no interpretation but you can't leave well enough alone and start interpretation.

You are accusing me of what you are doing.

read whats written.

whats to interpret.


Show me what I did not read and interpreted that Jesus himself spoke.

You say something with nothing to back it up.


Joh 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.


No interpretation or blanks left unfilled or is it you know more then Jesus?

[Tucson Jim]

Jesus's words need no interpretation but you can't leave well enough alone and start interpretation.

You are accusing me of what you are doing.

read whats written.

whats to interpret.


Show me what I did not read and interpreted that Jesus himself spoke.

You say something with nothing to back it up.


Joh 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.


No interpretation or blanks left unfilled or is it you know more then Jesus?

:)):)):)):)) You have the schmaltz to quote John 17:3 to ME???

You really ought to be ashamed of yourself.

[Tucson Jim]

:rolleyes:

:))

[Warrior4God]

:)):)):)):)) You have the schmaltz to quote John 17:3 to ME???

You really ought to be ashamed of yourself.

Joh 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.


You think its funny that Jesus has a different view then you?


whatever.


Do you not believe this verse either?..............

Joh 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.


God has no brethren either.

[Fire Watch]

Jesus's words need no interpretation but you can't leave well enough alone and start interpretation.

You are accusing me of what you are doing.

read whats written.
OUTSTANDING policy.

John 14:7 "If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him."

Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?


Just read what's written. Jesus' words need no interpretation.

[Warrior4God]

Rom 1:22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
Rom 1:23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.

[Tucson Jim]

Joh 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.


You think its funny that Jesus has a different view then you?


whatever.

No, I think it shows incredible Schmaltz for you to quote John 17:3 to me when I explained it to you fully and you had no response whatsoever.

To this day you have no response, yet you quote it as if it proves your point.

Unbelievable . . .


Do you not believe this verse either?..............

Joh 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.


God has no brethren either.

It just all goes right over your head doesn't it?

[Tucson Jim]

Rom 1:22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
Rom 1:23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.

Right back atcha big boy!

[Fire Watch]

Rom 1:22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
Rom 1:23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
We can all play that game.

Where is thy Father? Jesus answered, Ye neither know me, nor my Father: if ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also" (John 8:19). Jesus went on to say, "I said therefore unto you, if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins" (John 8:24).

[Tucson Jim]

We can all play that game.

Where is thy Father? Jesus answered, Ye neither know me, nor my Father: if ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also" (John 8:19). Jesus went on to say, "I said therefore unto you, if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins" (John 8:24).

:clap:

[Fire Watch]

I thought we were just going to read what Jesus said and accept it. This thread should be finished now.

Jesus's words need no interpretation but you can't leave well enough alone and start interpretation.

You are accusing me of what you are doing.

read whats written.

John 14:7 "If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him."

Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?


Just read what's written. Jesus' words need no interpretation.

[Tucson Jim]

I thought we were just going to read what Jesus said and accept it. This thread should be finished now.



John 14:7 "If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him."

Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?


Just read what's written. Jesus' words need no interpretation.

True, true.

[Tucson Jim]

Now that this thread is finished . . . what are we gonna talk about?

[Warrior4God]

OUTSTANDING policy.

John 14:7 "If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him."

Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?


Just read what's written. Jesus' words need no interpretation.

You must be aware of the context of the verses you quoted to see the substance of the message and take the other verses into focus with those you quote and the picture is clear..........

Joh 14:12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

Know one can do greater works then God.



Joh 14:13 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.

gets clear that God not Jesus is the source of power.

Joh 14:14 If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.
yup its God in Christs name still


Joh 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

If Christ is God then he does not need to pray the Father send anything...........If hes God he just does it right?


Joh 14:28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.

no intepretation needed.


but you go right ahead and take the verses you quote from the context in which they are written.

[Tucson Jim]

You must be aware of the context of the verses you quoted to see the substance of the message and take the other verses into focus with those you quote and the picture is clear..........

Joh 14:12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

Know one can do greater works then God.



Joh 14:13 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.

gets clear that God not Jesus is the source of power.

Joh 14:14 If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.
yup its God in Christs name still


Joh 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

If Christ is God then he does not need to pray the Father send anything...........If hes God he just does it right?


Joh 14:28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.

no intepretation needed.


but you go right ahead and take the verses you quote from the context in which they are written.

This has been explained to you so many times.

You really have no excuse . . .

[Fire Watch]

You must be aware of the context of the verses you quoted to see the substance of the message and take the other verses into focus with those you quote and the picture is clear..........

Joh 14:12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

Know one can do greater works then God.



Joh 14:13 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.

gets clear that God not Jesus is the source of power.

Joh 14:14 If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.
yup its God in Christs name still


Joh 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

If Christ is God then he does not need to pray the Father send anything...........If hes God he just does it right?


Joh 14:28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.

no intepretation needed.


but you go right ahead and take the verses you quote from the context in which they are written.

Now you're contradicting the very policy you laid out YOURSELF just a couple of posts back (and butchering the Hermeneutics at the same time)

Jesus's words need no interpretation but you can't leave well enough alone and start interpretation.

You are accusing me of what you are doing.

read whats written.

whats to interpret.

[Tucson Jim]

For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them. Matt 13:15

[Warrior4God]

We can all play that game.

Where is thy Father? Jesus answered, Ye neither know me, nor my Father: if ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also" (John 8:19). Jesus went on to say, "I said therefore unto you, if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins" (John 8:24).

........if ye believe not that I am he..........................He has already made clear who HE was.

But to help set it in clear perspective the purpose of the Gospel is clearly stated in 20:31


Joh 20:31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.


Context

[Tucson Jim]

........if ye believe not that I am he..........................He has already made clear who HE was.

But to help set it in clear perspective the purpose of the Gospel is clearly stated in 20:31


Joh 20:31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.


Context

The Son of a man is man.

The Son of God is _____ ?

[Fire Watch]

........if ye believe not that I am he..........................He has already made clear who HE was.
He sure did.

John 14:7 "If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him."

Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?

Someone once said "
Jesus's words need no interpretation but you can't leave well enough alone and start interpretation.

You are accusing me of what you are doing.

read whats written.

whats to interpret."

[Warrior4God]

This has been explained to you so many times.

You really have no excuse . . .

You mean you explained why you believe Jesus has a different view then you?

[Tucson Jim]

You mean you explained why you believe Jesus has a different view then you?

:)) You wish!

I mean it has been explained to you in laborious detail why your favorite verse - "the Father is greater than I" - has no bearing on the Deity of Christ, no matter how much you wish it did.

[Warrior4God]

He sure did.

John 14:7 "If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him."

Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?

Someone once said "
Jesus's words need no interpretation but you can't leave well enough alone and start interpretation.

You are accusing me of what you are doing.

read whats written.

whats to interpret."

Just showed you the context of the chapter and what Jesus is saying and within the context you can see that Christ is not saying he is God or that he is the Father unless you can do greater works then God.

Joh 14:12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.


To let the Bible interpret itself you must allow the context to reveal what is being said and allow the verse or verses to inerpret what is being said within the context.


I thought you knew this FW.

[Tucson Jim]

Just showed you the context of the chapter and what Jesus is saying and within the context you can see that Christ is not saying he is God or that he is the Father unless you can do greater works then God.

Joh 14:12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.


To let the Bible interpret itself you must allow the context to reveal what is being said and allow the verse or verses to inerpret what is being said within the context.

I can help you with how the Bible interprets itself if you need some help.


I don't mind.

:)) You are something Warrior!

I guess that's why we love you!

[Tucson Jim]

AW you edited. I liked the original better!

[Warrior4God]

AW you edited. I liked the original better!

Me too but It came off as smart butt.

[Warrior4God]

I could not sleep and now I am wide awake.............why are you up so late Jim?


I drank a cup of coffee tooooooooooooooooooo late this evening and it was a bit strong.

[Tucson Jim]

Me too but It came off as smart butt.

Naw . . . it's quintessential Warrior . . .it's you Bro!

[Tucson Jim]

I could not sleep and now I am wide awake.............why are you up so late Jim?

That's funny - I was gonna ask you the same thing!

I had a bad day at work - I really can't sleep . . .

[Warrior4God]

That's funny - I was gonna ask you the same thing!

I had a bad day at work - I really can't sleep . . .

Its not as late where you are though

[Tucson Jim]

Its not as late where you are though

It's 12:30 AM. Where are you?

[Warrior4God]

:)) You are something Warrior!

I guess that's why we love you!

Well the body of Christ would be missing a key part without you in it Jim.


LOL I am something alright and have heard a few 4 letter words to describe that something at times.

[Warrior4God]

It's 12:30 AM. Where are you?

Its 2:30 in the panhandle of Florida.

[Tucson Jim]

Well the body of Christ would be missing a key part without you in it Jim.

Same to you - we may disagree but I know you love the Lord more than most. Otherwise you wouldn't be fightin' for the Lord in the wee hours!

[Tucson Jim]

Its 2:30 in the panhandle of Florida.

Ah, man, you need to get to sleep!

I was in Daytona beach for one of the bad hurricanes . . . 2003 or 4 I think.

Man was that nasty!

[Warrior4God]

Same to you - we may disagree but I know you love the Lord more than most. Otherwise you wouldn't be fightin' for the Lord in the wee hours!

I wonder how life must be to not Love the one who gave us eternal life and have no hope.

My heart aches for those who need Christ and think they know all the answers on their own.

[Tucson Jim]

I wonder how life must be to not Love the one who gave us eternal life and have no hope.

My heart aches for those who need Christ and think they know all the answers on their own.

Amen to that!

I used to be in that boat. I don't EVER want to go back!

Thank God He had mercy on me!

[Warrior4God]

Ah, man, you need to get to sleep!

I was in Daytona beach for one of the bad hurricanes . . . 2003 or 4 I think.

Man was that nasty!

I pray we see none here this year......hurricanes are scary and we live not far from the beach (about 15 minutes away)

[Warrior4God]

Amen to that!

I used to be in that boat. I don't EVER want to go back!

Thank God He had mercy on me!

Amen brother and goodnight.

[Tucson Jim]

I pray we see none here this year......hurricanes are scary and we live not far from the beach (about 15 minutes away)

My prayers are with you.

I was in a hotel when it hit and the glass on the patio door was moving a half inch in each direction from the wind. I thought it was going to break.

I kept my clothes on all night and moved everything of value into the bathroom and closed the door.

The next day, I looked out the window and it looked like a war zone.

I'm happy with Arizona . . . ;)

[Tucson Jim]

Amen brother and goodnight.

Goodnight Brother Warrior - sleep well.

[Angryamerican]

:)):)):)):)) You have the schmaltz to quote John 17:3 to ME???

You really ought to be ashamed of yourself.

No rebuttle you win warrior.

[Angryamerican]

OUTSTANDING policy.

John 14:7 "If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him."

Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?


Just read what's written. Jesus' words need no interpretation.

Nice try , But now post the whole chapters of these verses and let us see what they really are trying to say. i posted these chapters earlier in the thread.

No Jesus is NOT trying to convey he is GOD.

[Tucson Jim]

No rebuttle you win warrior.

None needed - I already provided a looonnnggg discussion of John 17:3 and got essentially no response.

[Jacob_Rising]

Should You Believe in the Trinity?

Is It Clearly a Bible Teaching?



IF THE Trinity were true, it should be clearly and consistently presented in the Bible. It is true and it is clearly and consistantly found from Genisis to Revelation.

The temple itself and the 3 main feasts of Israel mirror the Trinity,.

The land also and the people mirror the trinty, There were 2 kingdoms on either side of Jerusalem.

God made man in his image which in my opinion was the Most beautiful creature, Adam , and Eve.

The next story is about the sons of Adam which are Cain, Able Seth.

The sons of Noah are Ham, Japheth, and Shem.

Both the sons of Adam and the sons of Noah give us 3 different views of 3 sons.

One symbolizes the flesh, one symbolizes a sacrifice and one symbolizes life.

Even our Solar system, and the universe mirrors the Trinity.

The Earth , moon and Sun.

The milky way galaxy, and our sister Galaxy andromeda will one day become one and we are both being pulled into a larger galxy where the 3 will become one.

The temple has 3 major sections, the outer court, and the two sections of the temple proper.

There are 3 feasts played out in this temple where all males must be present for these days.

Passover is for repentance{Elija} of the flesh and the alter of burnt offering stands in the outer court.

Pentacost represents the spirit when you gain access into the Holy place where the Menorah is and the showbread. It's the true daily bread and the Menorah symbolizes the 7 charachteristics of God.

The feast of Tabernacles is when you actually dwell, or Tabernacle with God.

Everything I see mirrors a Trinity.

[Warrior4God]

It is true and it is clearly and consistantly found from Genisis to Revelation.

The temple itself and the 3 main feasts of Israel mirror the Trinity,.

The land also and the people mirror the trinty, There were 2 kingdoms on either side of Jerusalem.

God made man in his image which in my opinion was the Most beautiful creature, Adam , and Eve.

The next story is about the sons of Adam which are Cain, Able Seth.

The sons of Noah are Ham, Japheth, and Shem.

Both the sons of Adam and the sons of Noah give us 3 different views of 3 sons.

One symbolizes the flesh, one symbolizes a sacrifice and one symbolizes life.

Even our Solar system, and the universe mirrors the Trinity.

The Earth , moon and Sun.

The milky way galaxy, and our sister Galaxy andromeda will one day become one and we are both being pulled into a larger galxy where the 3 will become one.

The temple has 3 major sections, the outer court, and the two sections of the temple proper.

There are 3 feasts played out in this temple where all males must be present for these days.

Passover is for repentance{Elija} of the flesh and the alter of burnt offering stands in the outer court.

Pentacost represents the spirit when you gain access into the Holy place where the Menorah is and the showbread. It's the true daily bread and the Menorah symbolizes the 7 charachteristics of God.

The feast of Tabernacles is when you actually dwell, or Tabernacle with God.

Everything I see mirrors a Trinity.

Jacob thats really some crazy stuff........and proves what?

Gods Word itself does not describe the trinity...........men have tried to piece it together but have come up short IMO.

If the trinity were true, God would make it so clear there would be at least a verse that shows it.........right?

Where is it?

There are none

So what did men do?

They corrupted a verse (and more actually).......I would not want to stand at the judgement and explain

Heres a better analogy...............

How many planets have man upon it and all its life......................ONE...........not three.


Every analogy you describe shows 3 independent examples from one another which means you follow three Gods if your description is correct.

As for Adams offspring I think we have a problem there...........which of the three in the trinity are Seth Cain and Abel?

think about what the three did and which is Cain in the trinity...... which is Abel...........which is Seth?


You use Earth Sun and Moon in our Solar system to show a trinity but forgot a few other planets the revolve around the Sun and a few moons here and there to boot.

Show me the trinity in Genesis to revelation..........where exactly?

[DispensationalJim]

Sorry, I fell behind again... You guys stay up too late for me.

You must be aware of the context of the verses you quoted to see the substance of the message and take the other verses into focus with those you quote and the picture is clear..........

But, Warrior, you said there was no interpretation needed.


Know one can do greater works then God.

You might want to correct that sentence... (hint: "no" instead of "know")


If Christ is God then he does not need to pray the Father send anything...........If hes God he just does it right?

As several of us have said several times, Jesus was OBVIOUSLY GOD IN THE BEGINNING (He was the CREATOR of ALL things according to John 1:3 below, plus Eph. 3:9; Col. 1:16; Heb. 1:2; Rev. 4:11, etc., remember?) and then HE MADE HIMSELF INTO A MAN SO HE COULD DIE FOR OUR SINS.

While He was a man, He did pray to His Father. No problem for Trintarians.

Here are some wonderful verses supporting what I just said which need NO INTERPRETATION, thank you very much. They have NOT been corrupted as you claim. That is simply your OPINION based on people like Wescott and Hort who IMO were the actual corrupters.
============================

• John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. ... 14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

• 1John 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

• Phil. 2:5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: 6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: 7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: 8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

===========================

Again, Warrior, thank you for restating the rule that no interpretation is needed. We KJV Grace believers say that all the time!

no intepretation needed.

AMEN!

but you go right ahead and take the verses you quote from the context in which they are written.

But I thought you said: "no interpretation needed"!?

We need to be consistent here... :D

[Warrior4God]

Sorry, I fell behind again... You guys stay up too late for me.



But, Warrior, you said there was no interpretation needed.




You might want to correct that sentence... (hint: "no" instead of "know")




As several of us have said several times, Jesus was OBVIOUSLY GOD IN THE BEGINNING (He was the CREATOR of ALL things according to John 1:3 below, plus Eph. 3:9; Col. 1:16; Heb. 1:2; Rev. 4:11, etc., remember?) and then HE MADE HIMSELF INTO A MAN SO HE COULD DIE FOR OUR SINS.

While He was a man, He did pray to His Father. No problem for Trintarians.

Here are some wonderful verses supporting what I just said which need NO INTERPRETATION, thank you very much. They have NOT been corrupted as you claim. That is simply your OPINION based on people like Wescott and Hort who IMO were the actual corrupters.
============================

• John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. ... 14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

• 1John 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

• Phil. 2:5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: 6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: 7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: 8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

===========================

Again, Warrior, thank you for restating the rule that no interpretation is needed. We KJV Grace believers say that all the time!



AMEN!



But I thought you said: "no interpretation needed"!?

We need to be consistent here... :D

There you go taking out of context what I was saying DJim.
For the Word to interpret itself it must be read in context.

I love how some of you try and use a gotcha when you know dang well what I mean.


Many many verses need no interpretation and stand outside the context but they should still be read within their context .


My favorite thing you use is this.....................(no problem for trinitarians)

So one who is not saved and reads Gods Word it is a problem till they are indoctrinated then its no problem?

By the way Jim you are using that verse corrupted by men again.
1John 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

If you use it like you quote it with knowing the truth you are no better then the men who corrupted it 1600 or so years after it was written..............which was corrupted in the Stephens text.

[Jacob_Rising]

Jacob thats really some crazy stuff........and proves what?

Gods Word itself does not describe the trinity...........men have tried to piece it together but have come up short IMO.

If the trinity were true, God would make it so clear there would be at least a verse that shows it.........right?

Where is it?

There are none

So what did men do?

They corrupted a verse (and more actually).......I would not want to stand at the judgement and explain

Heres a better analogy...............

How many planets have man upon it and all its life......................ONE...........not three.


Every analogy you describe shows 3 independent examples from one another which means you follow three Gods if your description is correct.

As for Adams offspring I think we have a problem there...........which of the three in the trinity are Seth Cain and Abel?

think about what the three did and which is Cain in the trinity...... which is Abel...........which is Seth?


You use Earth Sun and Moon in our Solar system to show a trinity but forgot a few other planets the revolve around the Sun and a few moons here and there to boot.

Show me the trinity in Genesis to revelation..........where exactly?It's my opinion but I think it's a good opinion.

God said, Let us make man in our image.

Most any Christians will tell you that there is a father, a son, and the Holy spirit.

That is 3 ways at looking at God.

When he said, '' Let us make man in Our image'' I believed him.

I believe he made the most beauitul creature in the world which would be the mind of man.

He created Adam, and from Adam's sacrifice, he created Eve and called them, ''ADAM"

I believe he created a mirror image of 3 ways Christians know God.

The Father, the son and the Holy spirit.

But that we were just an image.

[Jacob_Rising]

Answer this question.

'' Why did Yeshuah call Peter Satan?''

[Warrior4God]

Answer this question.

'' Why did Yeshuah call Peter Satan?''

I believe you have an answer..........so I will bite.............why?

[Warrior4God]

You might want to correct that sentence... (hint: "no" instead of "know")






Sorry about that Jim.........Does it change the fact that if we can do greater works then Jesus that we would be doing greater works then God?

[Warrior4God]

Answer this question.

'' Why did Yeshuah call Peter Satan?''

Answer this question.
Is a high priest a servant to God?

Answer this question.

If Jesus is God then why is he a high priest?

[Warrior4God]

It's my opinion but I think it's a good opinion.

God said, Let us make man in our image.

Most any Christians will tell you that there is a father, a son, and the Holy spirit.

That is 3 ways at looking at God.

When he said, '' Let us make man in Our image'' I believed him.

I believe he made the most beauitul creature in the world which would be the mind of man.

He created Adam, and from Adam's sacrifice, he created Eve and called them, ''ADAM"

I believe he created a mirror image of 3 ways Christians know God.

The Father, the son and the Holy spirit.

But that we were just an image.

But that only applies to us but not Jesus?

Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:


Can't have it both ways Jacob.....can we?

Does being the image of God only fit when it fits what you want it to?

[DispensationalJim]

There you go taking out of context what I was saying DJim.
For the Word to interpret itself it must be read in context.

I love how some of you try and use a gotcha when you know dang well what I mean.

Many many verses need no interpretation and stand outside the context but they should still be read within their context .

My favorite thing you use is this.....................(no problem for trinitarians)


I quoted exactly what you said, Warrior: "no intepretation needed." I see no "context" there.

So one who is not saved and reads Gods Word it is a problem till they are indoctrinated then its no problem?

Sorry, Warrior, but IMO that statement does need an interpretation or a context. Would you mind restating that? I do not get what you mean.

By the way Jim you are using that verse corrupted by men again.
1John 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

If you use it like you quote it with knowing the truth you are no better then the men who corrupted it 1600 or so years after it was written..............which was corrupted in the Stephens text.

I gave pages of info way back showing that your claim of corruption is not valid. Must I derail this thread to show you that again? I suggest you read Dean Burgon's excellent book, "The Revision Revised" (1883) on the subject, please.

Or how about a web site?
http://www.1john57.com/1john57.htm

[Jacob_Rising]

Answer this question.
Is a high priest a servant to God?

Answer this question.

If Jesus is God then why is he a high priest?There are two sons of oil that are annointed, One is the Cohen HaGadol and the other is the King.

These positions only pointed to the combination of one person fulfilling one role.

A Priest king.

All the stories in the bible only point to God coming to dwell with mankind and to be both Priest and king.

Zechariah was looking forward to this in Chapter 6-13.

'' So he shall be a Priest upon his throne'' He shall bear the glory.

God has never wanted Israel to have a King because he is the king of Israel.

And what does it say about this King in this Messianic age?

Zechariah 14-16 '' And it shall come to Pass that everyone who is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall go up from year to year, TO WORSHIP THE KING.

Why would a king of Israel be allowed to bear the glory and to be worshipped if he weren't God?

[Jacob_Rising]

I believe you have an answer..........so I will bite.............why?He called Peter Satan because we all have been born of him.

He was the most beautiful creature in the garden as Adam and Eve were beautiful.

I believe we all greatly suffer because of our desires of the flesh.

Those desires try to rule us but we are to rule over it.

Those desires are present and clear because our minds have to slither in the gutter until we would be changed.

The reason Yeshuah called Peter Satan is because he was speaking from the flesh, and all of us have those same faults.

We are all in a continual battle against our Evil imaginations and God relented that he had ever made man because our imaginations slither along the ground.

He is the third part of us.

[Jacob_Rising]

But that only applies to us but not Jesus?

Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:


Can't have it both ways Jacob.....can we?

Does being the image of God only fit when it fits what you want it to?Why did you stop with Colossians 1-15, read on.

For by him all things all things were created that are in heaven and Earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created THROUGH HIM and for him. AND HE IS BEFORE ALL THINGS.

If Yeshuah was just a man, then how is it that he was there before the Earth was formed?

[Warrior4God]

Why did you stop with Colossians 1-15, read on.

For by him all things all things were created that are in heaven and Earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created THROUGH HIM and for him. AND HE IS BEFORE ALL THINGS.

If Yeshuah was just a man, then how is it that he was there before the Earth was formed?

I have more then 3 times dealt with Colossians in this thread Jacob and you can look at it........If you can't find it I will post it again though.


Your response on a high priest still shows me that a high priest serves and God serves no one.

God helps intercedes gives etc. but not serve.

[Warrior4God]

He called Peter Satan because we all have been born of him.

He was the most beautiful creature in the garden as Adam and Eve were beautiful.

I believe we all greatly suffer because of our desires of the flesh.

Those desires try to rule us but we are to rule over it.

Those desires are present and clear because our minds have to slither in the gutter until we would be changed.

The reason Yeshuah called Peter Satan is because he was speaking from the flesh, and all of us have those same faults.

We are all in a continual battle against our Evil imaginations and God relented that he had ever made man because our imaginations slither along the ground.

He is the third part of us.

What verse shows that a man is born of satan?

what verse shows "He is the third part of us"?

[Warrior4God]

I gave pages of info way back showing that your claim of corruption is not valid. Must I derail this thread to show you that again? I suggest you read Dean Burgon's excellent book, "The Revision Revised" (1883) on the subject, please.

Or how about a web site?
http://www.1john57.com/1john57.htm

not buying it Jim..........too many know the corruption even many great theologians don't deny it.

show it again if you must...........I remember the posts Jim and its spin to me.

[DRS]

The Son of a man is man.

The Son of God is _____ ?

So using that logic

3*Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, for he has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in union with Christ, 4*just as he chose us in union with him before the founding of the world, that we should be holy and without blemish before him in love. 5*For he foreordained us to the adoption through Jesus Christ as sons to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, 6*in praise of his glorious undeserved kindness which he kindly conferred upon us by means of [his] loved one.

I guess you got more in common with the mormons than you though, since sons are the same as their father

And then there is even more gods then too using that logic

6 Now it came about that when men started to grow in numbers on the surface of the ground and daughters were born to them, 2*then the sons of the [true] God began to notice the daughters of men, that they were good-looking; and they went taking wives for themselves, namely, all whom they chose.

[DRS]

Answer this question.

'' Why did Yeshuah call Peter Satan?''

He did not call Peter, Satan he aknowledged that the reasoning and thought was of Satan

[Tucson Jim]

So using that logic

3*Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, for he has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in union with Christ, 4*just as he chose us in union with him before the founding of the world, that we should be holy and without blemish before him in love. 5*For he foreordained us to the adoption through Jesus Christ as sons to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, 6*in praise of his glorious undeserved kindness which he kindly conferred upon us by means of [his] loved one.

I guess you got more in common with the mormons than you though, since sons are the same as their father


Nice try but no fly . . . I love the way you change things just a wee bit so that your false point can be made.

I asked you if the son of a man is man, then the Son of God is _______.

THE Son of God, who is "Son" in a much different sense than people are.

Unless of course you now think YOU are the "only begotten" Son of God, unless you think you created the universe, etc.

Tricky DRS, very tricky . . . :naughty:

[Tucson Jim]

Answer this question.
Is a high priest a servant to God?

Answer this question.

If Jesus is God then why is he a high priest?

He's not "a" high priest - He is THE high priest, the one who always lives to make intercession for us. He is unique. And He is God.

[Tucson Jim]

It is true and it is clearly and consistantly found from Genisis to Revelation.

The temple itself and the 3 main feasts of Israel mirror the Trinity,.

The land also and the people mirror the trinty, There were 2 kingdoms on either side of Jerusalem.

God made man in his image which in my opinion was the Most beautiful creature, Adam , and Eve.

The next story is about the sons of Adam which are Cain, Able Seth.

The sons of Noah are Ham, Japheth, and Shem.

Both the sons of Adam and the sons of Noah give us 3 different views of 3 sons.

One symbolizes the flesh, one symbolizes a sacrifice and one symbolizes life.

Even our Solar system, and the universe mirrors the Trinity.

The Earth , moon and Sun.

The milky way galaxy, and our sister Galaxy andromeda will one day become one and we are both being pulled into a larger galxy where the 3 will become one.

The temple has 3 major sections, the outer court, and the two sections of the temple proper.

There are 3 feasts played out in this temple where all males must be present for these days.

Passover is for repentance{Elija} of the flesh and the alter of burnt offering stands in the outer court.

Pentacost represents the spirit when you gain access into the Holy place where the Menorah is and the showbread. It's the true daily bread and the Menorah symbolizes the 7 charachteristics of God.

The feast of Tabernacles is when you actually dwell, or Tabernacle with God.

Everything I see mirrors a Trinity.

Interesting Jacob. Thank you.

[Tucson Jim]

But that only applies to us but not Jesus?

Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:


Can't have it both ways Jacob.....can we?

Does being the image of God only fit when it fits what you want it to?

Warrior - you cannot possibly believe that we are "the exact representation of His nature" as Jesus is. Can you?

Come on . . .

[Tucson Jim]

I have more then 3 times dealt with Colossians in this thread Jacob and you can look at it........If you can't find it I will post it again though.


Your response on a high priest still shows me that a high priest serves and God serves no one.

God helps intercedes gives etc. but not serve.

Not "a" high priest - THE eternal High Priest, Who is God according to the Bible.

[drmilo]

Sorry about that Jim.........Does it change the fact that if we can do greater works then Jesus that we would be doing greater works then God?

When Jesus said we would do greater works than he did, he was referring to himself as a man -- his human existence -- and the works he was referring to was the works of his ministry: For Jesus was going to his father, and the apostles were going to do greater works than Jesus in the name of Jesus, following the ministry of Jesus. And they did. They brought the gentiles and the pagans into the fold of following and worshiping the One True God.

[Haplo]

The land also and the people mirror the trinty, There were 2 kingdoms on either side of Jerusalem.

Both the sons of Adam and the sons of Noah give us 3 different views of 3 sons.

The Earth , moon and Sun.

The milky way galaxy, and our sister Galaxy andromeda will one day become one and we are both being pulled into a larger galxy where the 3 will become one.

Everything I see mirrors a Trinity.Only when you limit the ones I selected. There were more kingdoms present then just those three just as Adam had more then three sons. Then also again with the galaxies it won't stop at these three into one.

So again the only trinity mirroring in these is when you put a artificial limit on them to make a particular point.

[Haplo]

1270 pages of "is not" and "is too" lol

[drmilo]

1270 pages of "is not" and "is too" lol

I think our points are more complex and deeper than "is not" "is too" but if that's how you see it: So let it be written. So let it be done.

[Haplo]

I think our points are more complex and deeper than "is not" "is too" but if that's how you see it: So let it be written. So let it be done.I love that Metallica song so will finish the chorus for you \m/

http://www.sing365.com/music/lyric.nsf/Creeping-Death-lyrics-Metallica/A5B31BC1F5D5D43E4825688D00331D9E

So let it be written
So let it be done
I'm sent here by the chosen one
So let it be written
So let it be done
To kill the first born pharaoh's son
I'm creeping death

[Tucson Jim]

When Jesus said we would do greater works than he did, he was referring to himself as a man -- his human existence -- and the works he was referring to was the works of his ministry: For Jesus was going to his father, and the apostles were going to do greater works than Jesus in the name of Jesus, following the ministry of Jesus. And they did. They brought the gentiles and the pagans into the fold of following and worshiping the One True God.

Amen!

This is, what - the 10th time or so we've been over this?

The points just keep flying over heads . . .:wall:

[Jacob_Rising]

I have more then 3 times dealt with Colossians in this thread Jacob and you can look at it........If you can't find it I will post it again though.


Your response on a high priest still shows me that a high priest serves and God serves no one.

God helps intercedes gives etc. but not serve.That's your opinion, I serve a God who was a servant to man.

The religion of Yeshuah is the servant, He is the branch from heaven and he washed feet himself.

You started with Colossians but everything you point to shows where the kingdom of heaven is and who rules the kingdom of heaven.

Again, Colossians 1-13

He has delivered us from the power of Darkness{Satan, within us} and TRANSLATED US INTO THE KINGDOM OF THE SON OF HIS LOVE.

What does this scripture mean?

It means that these Christians were allready translated into the kingdom of heaven and were there then, and now.

This kingdom is a spiritual kingdom as Yeshuah said, '' This is not my kingdom, My kingdom is in Heaven.''

God is the servant, God has sacrificed when he put his spirit within mankind, he sacrificed himself for us.

That's why there is so much grace, because we never had a chance.

None of us were worthy to open the seals.

[Jacob_Rising]

What verse shows that a man is born of satan?

what verse shows "He is the third part of us"?Are all of us gentiles turned torward Satan?

Acts Chapter 26 Paul defense before Agrippa.

Paul took this chance to witness to this Jewish King.

What did the king say?

King Agrippa said,'' You almost persade me to become a Christian.''

What was Paul telling the king of the Jews?

Paul told his story of meeting Christ and his ordained Job.

Yeshuah speaking,'' I will deliver you from the Jewish people, as well as from the gentiles, TO WHOM I HAVE SENT YOU, To open THEIR EYES and to turn them from darkness unto light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may recieve forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who are sanctified by faith.''

Yeshuah was telling Paul here that all the gentiles are in Satan's kingdom, and all the gentiles are of darkness and not light.

The only way for gentiles to be added into the light is to learn the law of Moses, and to be grafted into the worship system of God.

The word is God, He is the light.

The whole world is born of Satan but God gave a particular people a way of escaping that darknes by the light of his law.

[Jacob_Rising]

He did not call Peter, Satan he aknowledged that the reasoning and thought was of SatanGive me a break dude, He looked at Peter and said, '' Get behind me Satan''

How did the thoughts of Satan enter into a child of the light?

Because those fleshly desires are always there as they are present in this post.

The desciples said, '' Let us call fire down from heaven to devour these.''

That was the response from the Satan in their hearts.

It was the wrong response.

Those kinds of responses are seen from me all the time.

Everytime I wise arse somebody.

The mind of the spirit would act in love, but most of us don't do that in most cases.

I see Satan in the mirror when a sales call hits my house every morning about 9 a.m.

Sometimes I curse them as if they had killed my child.

Other times I act and respond in the spirit, in love.

Why are we so tempted?

[Poisonshady313]

There are two sons of oil that are annointed, One is the Cohen HaGadol and the other is the King.

These positions only pointed to the combination of one person fulfilling one role.

A Priest king.

All the stories in the bible only point to God coming to dwell with mankind and to be both Priest and king.

Zechariah was looking forward to this in Chapter 6-13.

'' So he shall be a Priest upon his throne'' He shall bear the glory.

No.

13. And he shall build the Temple of the Lord, and he shall bear glory. And he shall sit and rule on his throne, and the priest shall be on his throne. And a counsel of peace shall be between them [both].

These are two different people.

God has never wanted Israel to have a King because he is the king of Israel.

And what does it say about this King in this Messianic age?

Zechariah 14-16 '' And it shall come to Pass that everyone who is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall go up from year to year, TO WORSHIP THE KING.

Why would a king of Israel be allowed to bear the glory and to be worshipped if he weren't God?

16. And it will come to pass that everyone left of the nations who came up against Jerusalem will go up from year to year to prostrate himself to the King, the Lord of Hosts, and to celebrate the festival of Tabernacles.

Nobody's worshiping the earthly king... they will worship only God, THE King.

A little bit of context and proper translation goes a long way, Jacob.

[Poisonshady313]

Not "a" high priest - THE eternal High Priest, Who is God according to the Bible.

Where is God called "the eternal high priest"?

[Jacob_Rising]

No.

13. And he shall build the Temple of the Lord, and he shall bear glory. And he shall sit and rule on his throne, and the priest shall be on his throne. And a counsel of peace shall be between them [both].

These are two different people.



16. And it will come to pass that everyone left of the nations who came up against Jerusalem will go up from year to year to prostrate himself to the King, the Lord of Hosts, and to celebrate the festival of Tabernacles.

Nobody's worshiping the earthly king... they will worship only God, THE King.

A little bit of context and proper translation goes a long way, Jacob.What are you doing in here cotton picker?

You don't know from Trinity issues.
:)

I'll give you the Reigns Shady, I'm aware we disagree on this scripture.

We have many issues on translating the law and the prophets.

But I have plenty more from the New Testament, I'll try and stick to that when debating Christians.

I could prove my point withought going to the law and the prophets.

[Poisonshady313]

You don't know from Trinity issues.
:) I know from Tanach issues, from priestly issues, and from kingly issues. And those are the ones I commented on.

I'll give you the Reigns Shady, I'm aware we disagree on this scripture.

We have many issues on translating the law and the prophets.

But I have plenty more from the New Testament, I'll try and stick to that when debating Christians.

I could prove my point withought going to the law and the prophets.

Please do. It irks me tremendously to see people misusing Tanach scriptures. Not only does it show me that you don't understand it, but you're trying to pass it off as if you're accurately describing the passages. I can't stand idly by while you do such a thing.

[Jacob_Rising]

I know from Tanach issues, from priestly issues, and from kingly issues. And those are the ones I commented on.



Please do. It irks me tremendously to see people misusing Tanach scriptures. Not only does it show me that you don't understand it, but you're trying to pass it off as if you're accurately describing the passages. I can't stand idly by while you do such a thing.
Shady, if I'm correct at the subject in the scripture at hand, it was debated by Rabbi's and considered an error by the prophet Zechariah who spoke it and then revised.

[Poisonshady313]

Shady, if I'm correct at the subject in the scripture at hand, it was debated by Rabbi's and considered an error by the prophet Zechariah who spoke it and then revised.

Care to provide evidence for this?

Are you saying the Hebrew that Zechariah spoke was changed by Rabbis? Or is your claim solely about translation?

[Jacob_Rising]

Care to provide evidence for this?

Are you saying the Hebrew that Zechariah spoke was changed by Rabbis? Or is your claim solely about translation?Maybe I'm wrong Shady.

I've been mistaken many times, But I think me and Harmonious had this conversation and that's what I gathered from her response.

But Hell son, I'm clumsy, dumbwitted, and forgetfull.

It could be that my delusions are getting to me again, and this isn't sarcastic, I think I have alsheimers half the time.

But I think and remember Harmonious teaching me why we didn't agree on this scripture because it was revised.

[ralittlefield]

So using that logic

3*Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, for he has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in union with Christ, 4*just as he chose us in union with him before the founding of the world, that we should be holy and without blemish before him in love. 5*For he foreordained us to the adoption through Jesus Christ as sons to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, 6*in praise of his glorious undeserved kindness which he kindly conferred upon us by means of [his] loved one.

I guess you got more in common with the mormons than you though, since sons are the same as their father

And then there is even more gods then too using that logic

6 Now it came about that when men started to grow in numbers on the surface of the ground and daughters were born to them, 2*then the sons of the [true] God began to notice the daughters of men, that they were good-looking; and they went taking wives for themselves, namely, all whom they chose.

Did you notice the word "adoption" in the passage that you quoted? We are adopted. Christ is not.

We are not the same substance as God, Christ is. ("Who, being in very nature God" Phil 2:6, the Word was God. John 1:1)

[DRS]

Did you notice the word "adoption" in the passage that you quoted? We are adopted. Christ is not.

We are not the same substance as God, Christ is. ("Who, being in very nature God" Phil 2:6, the Word was God. John 1:1)

God is a spirit Jesus existed as a spirit does that make all spirits God?

Jesus was with the God but it does not say Jesus was the God

[DRS]

Give me a break dude, He looked at Peter and said, '' Get behind me Satan''

How did the thoughts of Satan enter into a child of the light?

Because those fleshly desires are always there as they are present in this post.

The desciples said, '' Let us call fire down from heaven to devour these.''

That was the response from the Satan in their hearts.

It was the wrong response.

Those kinds of responses are seen from me all the time.

Everytime I wise arse somebody.

The mind of the spirit would act in love, but most of us don't do that in most cases.

I see Satan in the mirror when a sales call hits my house every morning about 9 a.m.

Sometimes I curse them as if they had killed my child.

Other times I act and respond in the spirit, in love.

Why are we so tempted?

And yet he told Peter Satan demanded he be tested

We are imperfect when we have imperfrect thoughts it is not reflecting God's thoughts

[DRS]

Nice try but no fly . . . I love the way you change things just a wee bit so that your false point can be made.

I asked you if the son of a man is man, then the Son of God is _______.

THE Son of God, who is "Son" in a much different sense than people are.

Unless of course you now think YOU are the "only begotten" Son of God, unless you think you created the universe, etc.

Tricky DRS, very tricky . . . :naughty:

Genesis and Job both refer to the angels as the sons of God and they exist in God's form as spirits so are they God too?

[DRS]

The Holy Spirit has a name - YHWH.

Where would I find it said that the spirit has a name and if that is the case what is the name of the Father?

[ralittlefield]

God is a spirit Jesus existed as a spirit does that make all spirits God?

Jesus was with the God but it does not say Jesus was the God

No, that does not make all spirits God. Why would you ask that?


My point is that we are sons of God by adoption. Jesus is "The Son of God, & does not come by that title because He was adopted. You have ignored my point.


It also does not say he was a god.

[DRS]

No, that does not make all spirits God. Why would you ask that?


It also does not say he was a god.

Because all the scipture you quoted shows that Jesus had a spirit form

It also does not say a god in Acts 28:6

[Warrior4God]

When Jesus said we would do greater works than he did, he was referring to himself as a man -- his human existence -- and the works he was referring to was the works of his ministry: For Jesus was going to his father, and the apostles were going to do greater works than Jesus in the name of Jesus, following the ministry of Jesus. And they did. They brought the gentiles and the pagans into the fold of following and worshiping the One True God.

You are interpreting there...............unless you know of a scripture showing proof of that view.

Had the verse John 14:12 wanted to say that it was refering to him as a man, it would have.

Did not say that so you go ahead and add mens thoughts.


He is still a man by the way

Do you deny that?...............does anyone?

[DRS]

You are interpreting there...............unless you know of a scripture showing proof of that view.

Had the verse John 14:12 wanted to say that it was refering to him as a man, it would have.

Did not say that so you go ahead and add mens thoughts.


He is still a man by the way

Do you deny that?...............does anyone?

What is the arguement around the passage?

[ralittlefield]

Because all the scipture you quoted shows that Jesus had a spirit form

It also does not say a god in Acts 28:6

What does Having a spirit form have to do with the fact that we are sons of God through adoption, vs Jesus having the title "Son of God" though He was never adopted. Adoption is the issue, not spirit form.

as TJ said in an earlier post:

The son of man is man, The Son of God is ____.

[ralittlefield]

Because all the scipture you quoted shows that Jesus had a spirit form

It also does not say a god in Acts 28:6


Context!!

Did the author of John 1 believe in more than 1 God? No. So we can rightly understand that he was identifying Jesus as God.

Did the people who witnessed Paul being bitten by the snake believe in multiple gods? Yes. So we can rightly understand that they would identify Paul as one of them.

[DRS]

What does Having a spirit form have to do with the fact that we are sons of God through adoption, vs Jesus having the title "Son of God" though He was never adopted. Adoption is the issue, not spirit form.

as TJ said in an earlier post:

The son of man is man, The Son of God is ____.

So are all who are called sons of God then God, since all the angels are called sons of God?

[ralittlefield]

So are all who are called sons of God then God, since all the angels are called sons of God?

You insist on ignoring the point. We are sons of God by adoption. We are not Gods, we are adopted by God, thus sons of God. Jesus was not adopted.

[Warrior4God]

What is the arguement around the passage?

there is none but for some reason people try to interpret the words Jesus said plainly here and throughout the gospel of John.

[DRS]

You insist on ignoring the point. We are sons of God by adoption. We are not Gods, we are adopted by God, thus sons of God. Jesus was not adopted.

The angels are not called adopted son, they are just called sons of God read Genesis and Job

[ralittlefield]

there is none but for some reason people try to interpret the words Jesus said plainly here and throughout the gospel of John.

I agree. John 14:9 for instance.

[ralittlefield]

The angels are not called adopted son, they are just called sons of God read Genesis and Job

But they are never identified as God. Jesus is.

[DRS]

But they are never identified as God. Jesus is.

Moses was also called God

God does not always mean Almighty God without beginning

Oh and in Psalms they are called the מֵאֱלֹהִים, God like

[Warrior4God]

I agree. John 14:9 for instance.

Joh 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?


So you think Jesus is the father?

Ok

Context

[Warrior4God]

But they are never identified as God. Jesus is.

NO he is not .

The Bible does not identify him as God...you do.

The Bible and Jesus himself is clear that he is the Son of God.

He is the Son of man because he was born of a woman...
He is the Son of God because God created Jesus in her womb.

There is nothing more simple and yet men twist it around to fit a doctrine that Jesus ,Paul or Peter or any other ever claimed ..........The time, the culture and the translation and understanding that greek and hebrew words mean different things then english words at times must be taken into account or you have error and thats just what happened to develop a 3 in 1 God that is equal yet subject to another.

Its all a mess what men have done,and the blind following of mens doctrine

[Warrior4God]

1Jn 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.


As an adopted child, the child has every right and benefit of any other child.

And we will be like Christ and have the same body.

Would any disagree?

[drmilo]

there is none but for some reason people try to interpret the words Jesus said plainly here and throughout the gospel of John.

Question for you, Warrior. When Jesus says we will do greater works than he, what is he referring to? Have you done greater works than Jesus?

[drmilo]

Moses was also called God

God does not always mean Almighty God without beginning

Oh and in Psalms they are called the מֵאֱלֹהִים, God like

Moses was not called "God" in the sense of the title or name "God"

He was referred to as "god" in a metaphorical sense, meaning to have authority. That is plain by the context and the usage.

[drmilo]

NO he is not .

The Bible does not identify him as God...you do.

The Bible and Jesus himself is clear that he is the Son of God.

He is the Son of man because he was born of a woman...
He is the Son of God because God created Jesus in her womb.

There is nothing more simple and yet men twist it around to fit a doctrine that Jesus ,Paul or Peter or any other ever claimed ..........The time, the culture and the translation and understanding that greek and hebrew words mean different things then english words at times must be taken into account or you have error and thats just what happened to develop a 3 in 1 God that is equal yet subject to another.

Its all a mess what men have done,and the blind following of mens doctrine

A baby is born to a married couple: One is from the family "Smith" the other is from the family "Jones."

The baby is a boy.

He is the son of a "Smith" because his mother is a "Smith"
He is the son of a "Jones" because his father is a "Jones"
He is of the nature (DNA) of both "Smith and Jones"

Jesus was born of a woman, and thus is the Son of Man
Jesus was (eternally) begotten by God and thus is the Son of God
Just like the Smith and Jones boy has the nature of both Smith and Jones, so Jesus has the nature of both God and man.

[ralittlefield]

Joh 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?


So you think Jesus is the father?

Ok

Context

Please tell me what you mean by context.

The context is that Philip asked Jesus to show him the Father.

In response Jesus said that anyone who had seen Jesus had seen the Father.

I believe that anyone who has seen Jesus has seen the Father.

[ralittlefield]

NO he is not .

The Bible does not identify him as God...you do.

The Bible and Jesus himself is clear that he is the Son of God.

He is the Son of man because he was born of a woman...
He is the Son of God because God created Jesus in her womb.

There is nothing more simple and yet men twist it around to fit a doctrine that Jesus ,Paul or Peter or any other ever claimed ..........The time, the culture and the translation and understanding that greek and hebrew words mean different things then english words at times must be taken into account or you have error and thats just what happened to develop a 3 in 1 God that is equal yet subject to another.

Its all a mess what men have done,and the blind following of mens doctrine

Here we will disagree.

Phil 2 says that He was in nature God.

John 1 in speaking of Jesus as the Word says that the Word was God.

Like you have said. Plain language from the bible.

[Jacob_Rising]

He is the Son of man because he was born of a woman...
He is the Son of God because God created Jesus in her womb.

The New Testament states that Yeshuah was before anything created and everything created was for him, by him.

How do you figure God just Created Yeshuah in a womb?

There was no seed of man put inside of Mary.

Why then would you think he's just a man?

It has to be either one or the other.

[ralittlefield]

The New Testament states that Yeshuah was before anything created and everything created was for him, by him.

How do you figure God just Created Yeshuah in a womb?

There was no seed of man put inside of Mary.

Why then would you think he's just a man?

It has to be either one or the other.

That is right Jacob.

John 1 says that in the beginning was the Word. John then says that the Word was both with God and was God.

Not God's purpose or plan... but God. God with God in the beginning.

[Jacob_Rising]

Hebrews 7-3 For this Melchezedec, King of Salem, Priest of the most high God, who met Abraham returning from the slaughter of the kings and blessed him..........King of Peace without father, without mother, without genealogy, having neither beginning of days nor end of life{Still alive}, but made like the son of God, remains a priest continually.

Yeshuah has a continuing Priesthood which has no beginning of days nor end of life.

'' Made like the Son of God'' Not having beginning of days nor end of life.

We Mortals say we are like the sons of God but we had a beginning of days.

This king Priest, King of peace has been forever.

The son of God being God himself, not made like any man.

[DRS]

Moses was not called "God" in the sense of the title or name "God"

He was referred to as "god" in a metaphorical sense, meaning to have authority. That is plain by the context and the usage.

Sort of like how Jesus who has someone whom he worships and refers to as his God is called god, and Jesus said all authority was given to him hence he like Moses could be called god

18*And Jesus approached and spoke to them, saying: “All authority has been given me in heaven and on the earth

[DRS]

Hebrews 7-3 For this Melchezedec, King of Salem, Priest of the most high God, who met Abraham returning from the slaughter of the kings and blessed him..........King of Peace without father, without mother, without genealogy, having neither beginning of days nor end of life{Still alive}, but made like the son of God, remains a priest continually.

Yeshuah has a continuing Priesthood which has no beginning of days nor end of life.

'' Made like the Son of God'' Not having beginning of days nor end of life.

We Mortals say we are like the sons of God but we had a beginning of days.

This king Priest, King of peace has been forever.

The son of God being God himself, not made like any man.

This has to do with the ptiesthood and the fact that Jesus's is not like the AAronic priesthood

[Warrior4God]

Please tell me what you mean by context.

The context is that Philip asked Jesus to show him the Father.

In response Jesus said that anyone who had seen Jesus had seen the Father.

I believe that anyone who has seen Jesus has seen the Father.

context.............................



Joh 14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
Joh 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.
Joh 14:4 And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know.
Joh 14:5 Thomas saith unto him, Lord, we know not whither thou goest; and how can we know the way?
Joh 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
Joh 14:7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.
Joh 14:8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
Joh 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?

here is where Jesus makes clear in context the prior verse
Joh 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
Joh 14:11 Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.
Joh 14:12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.
Joh 14:13 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.
Joh 14:14 If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.
Joh 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.
Joh 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
Joh 14:17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
Joh 14:18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.
Joh 14:19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.
Joh 14:20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.
Joh 14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
Joh 14:22 Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world?
Joh 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.
Joh 14:24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.
Joh 14:25 These things have I spoken unto you, being yet present with you.
Joh 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
Joh 14:27 Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid.
Joh 14:28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.
Joh 14:29 And now I have told you before it come to pass, that, when it is come to pass, ye might believe.
Joh 14:30 Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me.
Joh 14:31 But that the world may know that I love the Father; and as the Father gave me commandment, even so I do. Arise, let us go hence.




context

context

context


context

[Jacob_Rising]

This has to do with the ptiesthood and the fact that Jesus's is not like the AAronic priesthoodWhere is your logic Drs?

It says a priest king that had no beginning of days and no end of life.

A priest king forever means forever, from past till eternity.

Was this taken away from Melchezidec?

Or was the King of Salem really Yeshuah?

Are there two sons of God that live forever?

[DRS]

Where is your logic Drs?

It says a priest king that had no beginning of days and no end of life.

A priest king forever means forever, from past till eternity.

Was this taken away from Melchezidec?

Or was the King of Salem really Yeshuah?

Are there two sons of God that live forever?

Hebrews is one of the greatest books in the bible as it shows how many of the examples in the Ot show what was to come, twice Paul shows the superiority of the priesthood Jesus would hold to that of the Arronic one

5 For every high priest taken from among men is appointed in behalf of men over the things pertaining to God, that he may offer gifts and sacrifices for sins. 2*He is able to deal moderately with the ignorant and erring ones since he also is surrounded with his own weakness, 3*and on its account he is obliged to make offerings for sins as much for himself as for the people.

4*Also, a man takes this honor, not of his own accord, but only when he is called by God, just as Aaron also [was]. 5*So too the Christ did not glorify himself by becoming a high priest, but [was glorified by him] who spoke with reference to him: “You are my son; I, today, I have become your father.” 6*Just as he says also in another place: “You are a priest forever according to the manner of Mel‧chiz′e‧dek.”

7*In the days of his flesh [Christ] offered up supplications and also petitions to the One who was able to save him out of death, with strong outcries and tears, and he was favorably heard for his godly fear. 8*Although he was a Son, he learned obedience from the things he suffered; 9*and after he had been made perfect he became responsible for everlasting salvation to all those obeying him, 10*because he has been specifically called by God a high priest according to the manner of Mel‧chiz′e‧dek.

11*If, then, perfection were really through the Levitical priesthood, (for with it as a feature the people were given the Law,) what further need would there be for another priest to arise according to the manner of Mel‧chiz′e‧dek and not said to be according to the manner of Aaron? 12*For since the priesthood is being changed, there comes to be of necessity a change also of the law. 13*For the man respecting whom these things are said has been a member of another tribe, from which no one has officiated at the altar. 14*For it is quite plain that our Lord has sprung up out of Judah, a tribe about which Moses spoke nothing concerning priests.

15*And it is still more abundantly clear that with a similarity to Mel‧chiz′e‧dek there arises another priest, 16*who has become such, not according to the law of a commandment depending upon the flesh, but according to the power of an indestructible life, 17*for in witness it is said: “You are a priest forever according to the manner of Mel‧chiz′e‧dek.”

[ralittlefield]

context.............................



Joh 14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
Joh 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.
Joh 14:4 And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know.
Joh 14:5 Thomas saith unto him, Lord, we know not whither thou goest; and how can we know the way?
Joh 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
Joh 14:7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.
Joh 14:8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
Joh 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?

here is where Jesus makes clear in context the prior verse
Joh 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
Joh 14:11 Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.
Joh 14:12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.
Joh 14:13 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.
Joh 14:14 If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.
Joh 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.
Joh 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
Joh 14:17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
Joh 14:18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.
Joh 14:19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.
Joh 14:20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.
Joh 14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
Joh 14:22 Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world?
Joh 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.
Joh 14:24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.
Joh 14:25 These things have I spoken unto you, being yet present with you.
Joh 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
Joh 14:27 Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid.
Joh 14:28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.
Joh 14:29 And now I have told you before it come to pass, that, when it is come to pass, ye might believe.
Joh 14:30 Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me.
Joh 14:31 But that the world may know that I love the Father; and as the Father gave me commandment, even so I do. Arise, let us go hence.




context

context

context


context

None of that passage contradicts the deity of Christ.

Jesus is identifying Himself with the Father.

Phil 2 answers any questions one might have about the servant role that Jesus had taken on during His earthy ministry.

[ralittlefield]

He is the Son of God because God created Jesus in her womb.



This is simply incorrect. In John 8:58 Jesus makes it clear that He existed before Abraham was born.

[Jacob_Rising]

Hebrews is one of the greatest books in the bible as it shows how many of the examples in the Ot show what was to come, twice Paul shows the superiority of the priesthood Jesus would hold to that of the Arronic one

5 For every high priest taken from among men is appointed in behalf of men over the things pertaining to God, that he may offer gifts and sacrifices for sins. 2*He is able to deal moderately with the ignorant and erring ones since he also is surrounded with his own weakness, 3*and on its account he is obliged to make offerings for sins as much for himself as for the people.

4*Also, a man takes this honor, not of his own accord, but only when he is called by God, just as Aaron also [was]. 5*So too the Christ did not glorify himself by becoming a high priest, but [was glorified by him] who spoke with reference to him: “You are my son; I, today, I have become your father.” 6*Just as he says also in another place: “You are a priest forever according to the manner of Mel‧chiz′e‧dek.”

7*In the days of his flesh [Christ] offered up supplications and also petitions to the One who was able to save him out of death, with strong outcries and tears, and he was favorably heard for his godly fear. 8*Although he was a Son, he learned obedience from the things he suffered; 9*and after he had been made perfect he became responsible for everlasting salvation to all those obeying him, 10*because he has been specifically called by God a high priest according to the manner of Mel‧chiz′e‧dek.

11*If, then, perfection were really through the Levitical priesthood, (for with it as a feature the people were given the Law,) what further need would there be for another priest to arise according to the manner of Mel‧chiz′e‧dek and not said to be according to the manner of Aaron? 12*For since the priesthood is being changed, there comes to be of necessity a change also of the law. 13*For the man respecting whom these things are said has been a member of another tribe, from which no one has officiated at the altar. 14*For it is quite plain that our Lord has sprung up out of Judah, a tribe about which Moses spoke nothing concerning priests.

15*And it is still more abundantly clear that with a similarity to Mel‧chiz′e‧dek there arises another priest, 16*who has become such, not according to the law of a commandment depending upon the flesh, but according to the power of an indestructible life, 17*for in witness it is said: “You are a priest forever according to the manner of Mel‧chiz′e‧dek.”We have been all through this before Drs, and I'de still like to hold a reaching hand out to you and ask you to accept yeshuah into your heart.

David said in the psalms, '' The Lord said to my Lord''

Who is David's Lord?

[DRS]

We have been all through this before Drs, and I'de still like to hold a reaching hand out to you and ask you to accept yeshuah into your heart.

David said in the psalms, '' The Lord said to my Lord''

Who is David's Lord?

Jehovah said to Jesus who enjoyed a position looking after Israel, lord does not mean almighty

12*Hence Sarah began to laugh inside herself, saying: “After I am worn out, shall I really have pleasure, my lord being old besides?

Does Abraham being called my lord make him anything more than the head of Sarah