Should You Believe In The Trinity?

[Poisonshady313]

Well the following comments may seem off topic. But they are directly related to the Trinity teaching in that the following is to show that either Jesus of Nazareth is either the Messiah or the God of Judaism has failed Judaism.

The Law says, "Cursed be he that confirmeth not all the words of this law to do them. And all the people shall say, Amen." -- Deuteronomy 27:26.

In 70 AD the temple was destroyed, and the people of Israel have not kept that part of the Law since.

Of course if Jesus of Nazareth is the Messiah that use of the temple effectively ended by Him suffering and dying on the cross (Mark 15:38.)

Daniel the prophet wrote, ". . . shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; . . ." -- Daniel 9:26. Which in 70 AD the temple was destroyed.

Do you have a better explanation?

Respectfully,
37818.


“And I will set My sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore. My temple also shall be with them. Yes, I will be their G-d and they shall be My people. And the heathen shall know that I the Lord do sanctify Israel, when My sanctuary shall be in the midst of them for evermore.” — Ezekiel 37:26-28 (See also Ezekiel 40-48; Isaiah 33:20)

The notion that the use of the temple effectively ended is precisely why Jesus is NOT the Messiah.

As for Daniel, it has nothing to do with the Messiah.

Though Messianic prophecies abound throughout the Tanach, not a one of them explicitly refers to the son of David as "Moshiach". In fact, the Tanach uses the word Moshiach 39 times, and not a one of them reference THE Moshiach.

The anointed ones spoken of in Daniel are other people...

"And you shall know and understand that from the emergence of the word to restore and to rebuild Jerusalem until the anointed king [shall be] seven weeks, and sixty-two weeks it will return and be built street and moat, but in troubled times."

This is King Cyrus.

Time will be given from the day of the destruction until the coming of Cyrus, king of Persia, about whom the Holy One, blessed be He, said that he would return and build His city, and He called him His anointed and His king, as it says (Isa. 45:1): “So said the Lord to His anointed one, to Cyrus etc.” (verse 13): “He shall build My city and free My exiles, etc.”

And after the sixty-two weeks, the anointed one will be cut off, and he will be no more, and the people of the coming monarch will destroy the city and the Sanctuary, and his end will come about by inundation, and until the end of the war, it will be cut off into desolation.

This anointed one is King Agrippa.

Agrippa, the king of Judea, who was ruling at the time of the destruction, will be slain.

[I]and the people of the coming monarch will destroy [The monarch who will come] upon them. That is Titus and his armies.

And he will strengthen a covenant for the princes for one week, and half the week he will abolish sacrifice and meal- offering, and on high, among abominations, will be the dumb one, and until destruction and extermination befall the dumb one.

and until destruction and extermination befall the dumb one and the ruling of the abomination will endure until the day that the destruction and extermination decreed upon it [will] befall it, in the days of the king Messiah.

The chapter ends with the foretold destruction of the temple in 70 CE, with the hope of redemption and victory which we are still waiting for.

Jesus' life and times, and events that happened shortly after his death, and the 2000 years that follow all make it perfectly crystal clear that the Messiah has not come yet. God hasn't failed us. He just hasn't set a definite time table for when we should expect the Messiah.

To declare Jesus to be the Messiah is to say that God failed Judaism, because if the Messiah came already, with all the prophecies having not been fulfilled, then the words of the prophets are all lies, which in turn means that the word of God is a lie.

Do you really want to be the person to declare that God is a liar?

[hillplus]

I have noticed that everyone uses the Bible to support their positions. Quite well, I might add. Maybe we need further clarification, further light and knowledge, more words of God.

[Angryamerican]

“And I will set My sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore. My temple also shall be with them. Yes, I will be their G-d and they shall be My people. And the heathen shall know that I the Lord do sanctify Israel, when My sanctuary shall be in the midst of them for evermore.” — Ezekiel 37:26-28 (See also Ezekiel 40-48; Isaiah 33:20)

The notion that the use of the temple effectively ended is precisely why Jesus is NOT the Messiah.

As for Daniel, it has nothing to do with the Messiah.

Though Messianic prophecies abound throughout the Tanach, not a one of them explicitly refers to the son of David as "Moshiach". In fact, the Tanach uses the word Moshiach 39 times, and not a one of them reference THE Moshiach.

The anointed ones spoken of in Daniel are other people...

"And you shall know and understand that from the emergence of the word to restore and to rebuild Jerusalem until the anointed king [shall be] seven weeks, and sixty-two weeks it will return and be built street and moat, but in troubled times."

This is King Cyrus.

Time will be given from the day of the destruction until the coming of Cyrus, king of Persia, about whom the Holy One, blessed be He, said that he would return and build His city, and He called him His anointed and His king, as it says (Isa. 45:1): “So said the Lord to His anointed one, to Cyrus etc.” (verse 13): “He shall build My city and free My exiles, etc.”

And after the sixty-two weeks, the anointed one will be cut off, and he will be no more, and the people of the coming monarch will destroy the city and the Sanctuary, and his end will come about by inundation, and until the end of the war, it will be cut off into desolation.

This anointed one is King Agrippa.

Agrippa, the king of Judea, who was ruling at the time of the destruction, will be slain.

[I]and the people of the coming monarch will destroy [The monarch who will come] upon them. That is Titus and his armies.

And he will strengthen a covenant for the princes for one week, and half the week he will abolish sacrifice and meal- offering, and on high, among abominations, will be the dumb one, and until destruction and extermination befall the dumb one.

and until destruction and extermination befall the dumb one and the ruling of the abomination will endure until the day that the destruction and extermination decreed upon it [will] befall it, in the days of the king Messiah.

The chapter ends with the foretold destruction of the temple in 70 CE, with the hope of redemption and victory which we are still waiting for.

Jesus' life and times, and events that happened shortly after his death, and the 2000 years that follow all make it perfectly crystal clear that the Messiah has not come yet. God hasn't failed us. He just hasn't set a definite time table for when we should expect the Messiah.

To declare Jesus to be the Messiah is to say that God failed Judaism, because if the Messiah came already, with all the prophecies having not been fulfilled, then the words of the prophets are all lies, which in turn means that the word of God is a lie.

Do you really want to be the person to declare that God is a liar?

It is tough to argue with someone, who can make their argument so clear. ;) Great post poison.

[Poisonshady313]

It is tough to argue with someone, who can make their argument so clear. ;) Great post poison.

Thanks, AA.

[Harmonious]

Well the following comments may seem off topic. But they are directly related to the Trinity teaching in that the following is to show that either Jesus of Nazareth is either the Messiah or the God of Judaism has failed Judaism.

The Law says, "Cursed be he that confirmeth not all the words of this law to do them. And all the people shall say, Amen." -- Deuteronomy 27:26.

In 70 AD the temple was destroyed, and the people of Israel have not kept that part of the Law since.

Sigh. Another Christian trying to tell the Jews how to follow our law.

Look - there are over 613 laws (over, because Purim and Chanukah add to the 613 that are found in the Five Books of Moses). It is impossible for any ONE person to do all of them. Some commandments are solely the providence of women who gave birth. I want to know how a man is supposed to deal with those commandments.

Some of those commandments would be conflicting, if they were all given to the same person. A Cohen is not permitted to come in contact with a dead body, yet it is a commandment to bury the dead with the appropriate decorum. Apparently, both sets of these instructions is not given to the Cohen. He follows the fact that he isn't allowed to come in contact with a dead body, and other Jews will bury the dead.

There are commandments that are only meant for men that would be disrespectful to the Torah is women performed them. It isn't a sin for women to refrain from doing that which it is inappropriate for us to do.

Some laws deal with time. Making Kiddush on a Tuesday night isn't helpful, when the Sabbath is Friday night. If you do a commandment at the wrong time, it just might actually be a sin to do it.

Some laws deal with place. There are all kinds of laws about agriculture that are only applicable in Israel.

There are some laws that are only applicable when we are physically capable of doing them. A man who is missing an arm does NOT have to lay Tefillin. We don't know who Amalek are, so we don't have to kill them.

The Temple is destroyed, so we cannot bring sacrifices.

Saying that Jews do not do commandments willy-nilly because they are impossible to perform is ridiculous and ignorant of you.

It is true that there are Jews who honestly DON'T care about fulfilling the commandments. But don't accuse Jews who constantly pray for the rebuilding of the Temple and the restoration of the commandments we are incapbable of doing of rebellion or willingly ignoring commandments. We would like NOTHING BETTER than to be able to fulfill the commandments. But if they are impossible, they are beyond us. We are not held accountable for the impossible.

Of course if Jesus of Nazareth is the Messiah that use of the temple effectively ended by Him suffering and dying on the cross (Mark 15:38.)Not according to Jewish law. According to Jesus and/or his followers, perhaps. But that has nothing to do with Jews in general.

Daniel the prophet wrote, ". . . shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; . . ." -- Daniel 9:26. Which in 70 AD the temple was destroyed.Not about THE Messiah. It is about A person who was annointed as a prince, or some other position.

The person who will rule as king from King David's dynasty hasn't come yet.

Do you have a better explanation?

Respectfully,
37818.I believe I just gave one.

[free2B]

“And I will set My sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore. My temple also shall be with them. Yes, I will be their G-d and they shall be My people. And the heathen shall know that I the Lord do sanctify Israel, when My sanctuary shall be in the midst of them for evermore.” — Ezekiel 37:26-28 (See also Ezekiel 40-48; Isaiah 33:20)

The notion that the use of the temple effectively ended is precisely why Jesus is NOT the Messiah.

As for Daniel, it has nothing to do with the Messiah.

Though Messianic prophecies abound throughout the Tanach, not a one of them explicitly refers to the son of David as "Moshiach". In fact, the Tanach uses the word Moshiach 39 times, and not a one of them reference THE Moshiach.

The anointed ones spoken of in Daniel are other people...

"And you shall know and understand that from the emergence of the word to restore and to rebuild Jerusalem until the anointed king [shall be] seven weeks, and sixty-two weeks it will return and be built street and moat, but in troubled times."

This is King Cyrus.

Time will be given from the day of the destruction until the coming of Cyrus, king of Persia, about whom the Holy One, blessed be He, said that he would return and build His city, and He called him His anointed and His king, as it says (Isa. 45:1): “So said the Lord to His anointed one, to Cyrus etc.” (verse 13): “He shall build My city and free My exiles, etc.”

And after the sixty-two weeks, the anointed one will be cut off, and he will be no more, and the people of the coming monarch will destroy the city and the Sanctuary, and his end will come about by inundation, and until the end of the war, it will be cut off into desolation.

This anointed one is King Agrippa.

Agrippa, the king of Judea, who was ruling at the time of the destruction, will be slain.

[I]and the people of the coming monarch will destroy [The monarch who will come] upon them. That is Titus and his armies.

And he will strengthen a covenant for the princes for one week, and half the week he will abolish sacrifice and meal- offering, and on high, among abominations, will be the dumb one, and until destruction and extermination befall the dumb one.

and until destruction and extermination befall the dumb one and the ruling of the abomination will endure until the day that the destruction and extermination decreed upon it [will] befall it, in the days of the king Messiah.

The chapter ends with the foretold destruction of the temple in 70 CE, with the hope of redemption and victory which we are still waiting for.

Jesus' life and times, and events that happened shortly after his death, and the 2000 years that follow all make it perfectly crystal clear that the Messiah has not come yet. God hasn't failed us. He just hasn't set a definite time table for when we should expect the Messiah.

To declare Jesus to be the Messiah is to say that God failed Judaism, because if the Messiah came already, with all the prophecies having not been fulfilled, then the words of the prophets are all lies, which in turn means that the word of God is a lie.

Do you really want to be the person to declare that God is a liar?

[QUOTE=Poisonshady313;30707421]“And I will set My sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore. My temple also shall be with them. Yes, I will be their G-d and they shall be My people. And the heathen shall know that I the Lord do sanctify Israel, when My sanctuary shall be in the midst of them for evermore.” — Ezekiel 37:26-28 (See also Ezekiel 40-48; Isaiah 33:20)

all the prophesies have not yet been fulfilled poison

[Poisonshady313]

“And I will set My sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore. My temple also shall be with them. Yes, I will be their G-d and they shall be My people. And the heathen shall know that I the Lord do sanctify Israel, when My sanctuary shall be in the midst of them for evermore.” — Ezekiel 37:26-28 (See also Ezekiel 40-48; Isaiah 33:20)

all the prophesies have not yet been fulfilled poison

That means that the Messiah hasn't come yet.

[DRS]

To declare Jesus to be the Messiah is to say that God failed Judaism, because if the Messiah came already, with all the prophecies having not been fulfilled, then the words of the prophets are all lies, which in turn means that the word of God is a lie.

Do you really want to be the person to declare that God is a liar?

God never failed

It is the stubborn ones who think it belongs to them to tell God how He is to fulfill their hopes.

It is arrogant on the part of any human to believe that everything certains around them

True servant of God have always been the minority, they were before Jesus came and they remain so now

18*And I have let seven thousand remain in Israel, all the knees that have not bent down to Ba′al, and every mouth that has not kissed him.”

[drmilo]

3 persons do not make one person



Trinitarians do not believe that three persons make one person.

This is mischaracterization of the trinitarian belief.

Trinitarians believe that the ONE BEING that is God is made up of THREE PERSONS.

[DRS]

Trinitarians do not believe that three persons make one person.

This is mischaracterization of the trinitarian belief.

Trinitarians believe that the ONE BEING that is God is made up of THREE PERSONS.

So you believe there are three Gods then?

Again what is the difference between that view and the Hindu trinity?

[Poisonshady313]

God never failed That's right God never failed. We're still waiting for the Messiah, just like God promised.

It is the stubborn ones who think it belongs to them to tell God how He is to fulfill their hopes. The Jews don't tell God anything. The Jews listen to what God said. We don't tell God... we tell you what God said.

It is arrogant on the part of any human to believe that everything certains around them Sure it is. I don't know anyone who feels that way.

True servant of God have always been the minority, they were before Jesus came and they remain so now and?

18*And I have let seven thousand remain in Israel, all the knees that have not bent down to Ba′al, and every mouth that has not kissed him.”

And how is Ba'al any different than Jesus? I don't know.

[Angryamerican]

God never failed

It is the stubborn ones who think it belongs to them to tell God how He is to fulfill their hopes.

It is arrogant on the part of any human to believe that everything certains around them

True servant of God have always been the minority, they were before Jesus came and they remain so now

18*And I have let seven thousand remain in Israel, all the knees that have not bent down to Ba′al, and every mouth that has not kissed him.”

Bottom line God keeps his word, and when God says something is gonna happen it's gonna happen, if that is not the case then why believe one word of the bible?

[Angryamerican]

Trinitarians do not believe that three persons make one person.

This is mischaracterization of the trinitarian belief.

Trinitarians believe that the ONE BEING that is God is made up of THREE PERSONS.

Dual personalities that really seems to violate that whole One God thing no matter how it is spun.

[Angryamerican]

That's right God never failed. We're still waiting for the Messiah, just like God promised.

The Jews don't tell God anything. The Jews listen to what God said. We don't tell God... we tell you what God said.

Sure it is. I don't know anyone who feels that way.

and?



And how is Ba'al any different than Jesus? I don't know.

Yeah poison, I am so glad i didn't let my pride continue to keep me blinded, about the promises God made to the jews. as well as the prophecies that were not fulfilled by the Christian messiah.

Pride is such an ugly thing. it can even make a good hearted and a well meant person seem so ignorant and closed minded and not worthy of the words God spoke.

[DRS]

That's right God never failed. We're still waiting for the Messiah, just like God promised.

The Jews don't tell God anything. The Jews listen to what God said. We don't tell God... we tell you what God said.

Sure it is. I don't know anyone who feels that way.

and?



And how is Ba'al any different than Jesus? I don't know.


Like the rest of mankind you will not mistaken the messiah when he returns at God's choosing

One can not tell others what to look for when one can not see themselves.


There are three basic views surrounding Jesus
Not the Messiah

Is the messiah

He is God

If he is number 3 then he is not choice number 2

If you disrespect Jesus then you disrespect all those who prophesied about him

[DRS]

Yeah poison, I am so glad i didn't let my pride continue to keep me blinded, about the promises God made to the jews. as well as the prophecies that were not fulfilled by the Christian messiah.

Pride is such an ugly thing. it can even make a good hearted and a well meant person seem so ignorant and closed minded and not worthy of the words God spoke.

Would you have been one of those who would have called for the freeing of Barabas?

[DRS]

Just as only a remnant of Jews did not bow down to Baal so only a remnant of Jews took adavntage of this prophecy

3*He was despised and was avoided by men, a man meant for pains and for having acquaintance with sickness. And there was as if the concealing of one’s face from us. He was despised, and we held him as of no account. 4*Truly our sicknesses were what he himself carried; and as for our pains, he bore them. But we ourselves accounted him as plagued, stricken by God and afflicted. 5*But he was being pierced for our transgression; he was being crushed for our errors. The chastisement meant for our peace was upon him, and because of his wounds there has been a healing for us. 6*Like sheep we have all of us wandered about; it was each one to his own way that we have turned; and Jehovah himself has caused the error of us all to meet up with that one. 7*He was hard pressed, and he was letting himself be afflicted; yet he would not open his mouth. He was being brought just like a sheep to the slaughtering; and like a ewe that before her shearers has become mute, he also would not open his mouth.

8*Because of restraint and of judgment he was taken away; and who will concern himself even with [the details of] his generation? For he was severed from the land of the living ones. Because of the transgression of my people he had the stroke. 9*And he will make his burial place even with the wicked ones, and with the rich class in his death, despite the fact that he had done no violence and there was no deception in his mouth.

10*But Jehovah himself took delight in crushing him; he made him sick. If you will set his soul as a guilt offering, he will see his offspring, he will prolong [his] days, and in his hand what is the delight of Jehovah will succeed. 11*Because of the trouble of his soul he will see, he will be satisfied. By means of his knowledge the righteous one, my servant, will bring a righteous standing to many people; and their errors he himself will bear. 12*For that reason I shall deal him a portion among the many, and it will be with the mighty ones that he will apportion the spoil, due to the fact that he poured out his soul to the very death, and it was with the transgressors that he was counted in; and he himself carried the very sin of many people, and for the transgressors he proceeded to interpose.

Those who listened were healed spiritually, they were brought bought back to God.

The sin which no imperfect man could remove he took upon himself, animal sacrifices and prayer can not take away death.

Many say why did death not stop then but does it belong to man to question the plans of God?

When man sinned and were subjected to futility did God immediately shorten the life span of man to 70 or 80 years?

if he had would man have filled the Earth so rapidly?

Daniel showed messiah could appear before God and no imperfect man could do that

Daniel showed when he would appear

And Daniel also gave us governments that would stand, but the it would be the messiah the king of God's government that would rule when those governments were crushed

[Poisonshady313]

Like the rest of mankind you will not mistaken the messiah when he returns at God's choosing Not when he "returns"... when he arrives for the first time.

One can not tell others what to look for when one can not see themselves. I can read. How about you?


There are three basic views surrounding Jesus
Not the Messiah

Is the messiah

He is God

If he is number 3 then he is not choice number 2

If you disrespect Jesus then you disrespect all those who prophesied about him

Disrespecting Jesus is a whole other matter particularly irrelevant to this thread.

I disagree that he was a person with any sort of authority, God given or otherwise.

That's not disrespect. That's disagreement.

"If you disrespect Jesus then you disrespect all those who prophesied about him".

I guess I don't have to worry about stepping on anyone's toes then, 'cause I can't think of one person who prophesied about him.

[Poisonshady313]

Daniel showed messiah could appear before God and no imperfect man could do that

Moses appeared before God. Moses wasn't perfect.

Somehow I don't think you quite understood what Daniel was saying.

[DRS]

Moses appeared before God in heaven?

That is interesting because the account in Exodus showed he had to be placed into a rock and covered over to just to get a small glimpse of God

[Poisonshady313]

Moses appeared before God in heaven?

That is interesting because the account in Exodus showed he had to be placed into a rock and covered over to just to get a small glimpse of God

You didn't say anything about heaven.

Moses was granted the fullest exposure to God's presence that a person could ever have.

Perhaps you wouldn't mind giving me a verse in Daniel to use as a reference...

[DRS]

You didn't say anything about heaven.

Moses was granted the fullest exposure to God's presence that a person could ever have.

Perhaps you wouldn't mind giving me a verse in Daniel to use as a reference...

13*“I kept on beholding in the visions of the night, and, see there! with the clouds of the heavens someone like a son of man happened to be coming; and to the Ancient of Days he gained access, and they brought him up close even before that One. 14*And to him there were given rulership and dignity and kingdom, that the peoples, national groups and languages should all serve even him. His rulership is an indefinitely lasting rulership that will not pass away, and his kingdom one that will not be brought to ruin.

This is the part where Jesus returns, he fulfilled the first part riding into Jerusalem on a donkey

[Angryamerican]

Like the rest of mankind you will not mistaken the messiah when he returns at God's choosing

One can not tell others what to look for when one can not see themselves.


There are three basic views surrounding Jesus
Not the Messiah

Is the messiah

He is God

If he is number 3 then he is not choice number 2

If you disrespect Jesus then you disrespect all those who prophesied about him

According to your opinion and the nt DRS. Your whole belief is based on the nt and i'm sorry there is not enough evidence to prove Jesus was the messiah. Matter of fact with out the nt no one would have believed Jesus was the messiah. And the nt wasn't even written until after Jesus was gone.

Does God keep his word ?

Tell me how the Jews were to know who the messiah was ?

Tell me how could God could expect the Jews to know who the messiah was if God didn't warn them that all prophecy would be fulfilled on a second coming ?

[Angryamerican]

Would you have been one of those who would have called for the freeing of Barabas?

What is your proof that even happened ?


So you take moments in time where Jews may have made a mistake and judge them on their mistakes. Who has the right to judge them ?


I ask you again does God keep his word ?

[DRS]

What is your proof that even happened ?


So you take moments in time where Jews may have made a mistake and judge them on their mistakes. Who has the right to judge them ?


I ask you again does God keep his word ?

You mean outside the bible?

Have the Jews changed any, in the past when threatened by other nations they made pacts and relied on Egypt and other nations, now they look to the US and to Britian

Any man has the right to judge the sayings regarding messiah if he has come or not and for good reason as it means life or death

God kept His word and his end of the covenant up man did not, man views have changed why not do a real study of the history of those texts the Jews deny as being messianic and see how they have changed.

Look to writing pre 1948, pre 15th cent. and pre crusades and watch the views change

[Angryamerican]

You mean outside the bible?

Have the Jews changed any, in the past when threatened by other nations they made pacts and relied on Egypt and other nations, now they look to the US and to Britian

Any man has the right to judge the sayings regarding messiah if he has come or not and for good reason as it means life or death

God kept His word and his end of the covenant up man did not, man views have changed why not do a real study of the history of those texts the Jews deny as being messianic and see how they have changed.

Look to writing pre 1948, pre 15th cent. and pre crusades and watch the views change

Yeah it's pretty tough having a debate with someone that has no faith in your source and you know i'm talking about the nt.

What proof of Jesus do you have ? And i'm surprised by you ignoring my questions drs.

[DRS]

I answered your questions

But the response to ignore the scriptures is really no different that those who refuse to study original lanuages and other translations

The man who ignores the books of Matthew to Revelation is no different than the man who ignores the bible verses that teach Jesus is not Almighty God.

Tell me this how can messiah come both in the clouds and on a donkey uness one comes twice?

[Angryamerican]

I answered your questions

But the response to ignore the scriptures is really no different that those who refuse to study original lanuages and other translations

The man who ignores the books of Matthew to Revelation is no different than the man who ignores the bible verses that teach Jesus is not Almighty God.

Tell me this how can messiah come both in the clouds and on a donkey uness one comes twice?

No you did not answer whether God keeps his word yes or no ?

How could God expect the jews to know Jesus was the messiah but didn't mention it would take a second coming for him to fulfill all prophecy ?

Did God say he would be the God of the Jews forever ?

Do you drs believe God has a new chosen people ?

[Angryamerican]

I answered your questions

But the response to ignore the scriptures is really no different that those who refuse to study original lanuages and other translations

The man who ignores the books of Matthew to Revelation is no different than the man who ignores the bible verses that teach Jesus is not Almighty God.

Tell me this how can messiah come both in the clouds and on a donkey uness one comes twice?

Have you ever heard of a parable ? Was moses brought before God ? And i think there are others who were confronted by God.

[DRS]

Yes God kept His word to those who were faithful Jews

There were two prophecies on messiahs arrival in different forms Jesus fulfilled the one from Zepheniah one could not fulfill both at the same time

God cannot be God to people who reject Him now can He?

God has always been the God of those who have chosen to serve Him, you seem to ignore the fact that for the first few years it was only those who were Jewish by birth that were allowed into the new covenant arrangement promised through Jeremiah

[DRS]

Have you ever heard of a parable ? Was moses brought before God ? And i think there are others who were confronted by God.

It was not a parable, the Jews did not view it as such, Moses was never in heaven and no man has seen God at anytime

[Angryamerican]

I answered your questions

But the response to ignore the scriptures is really no different that those who refuse to study original lanuages and other translations

The man who ignores the books of Matthew to Revelation is no different than the man who ignores the bible verses that teach Jesus is not Almighty God.

Tell me this how can messiah come both in the clouds and on a donkey uness one comes twice?

Parables.

Luk 16:23 And in hell he lifted up his eyes, being in torments, and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

Luk 13:28 There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth when you will see Abraham and Isaac and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and yourselves being thrust out.

Luk 16:22 And it happened that the beggar died and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom. The rich one also died and was buried.

Do you need more ?

[Angryamerican]

It was not a parable, the Jews did not view it as such, Moses was never in heaven and no man has seen God at anytime

Are you telling me no one has never seen visions of God ?

[Angryamerican]

Yes God kept His word to those who were faithful Jews

There were two prophecies on messiahs arrival in different forms Jesus fulfilled the one from Zepheniah one could not fulfill both at the same time

God cannot be God to people who reject Him now can He?

God has always been the God of those who have chosen to serve Him, you seem to ignore the fact that for the first few years it was only those who were Jewish by birth that were allowed into the new covenant arrangement promised through Jeremiah

So all Jews rejected God ?

So who is now the chosen people drs ?

[DRS]

Parables.

Luk 16:23 And in hell he lifted up his eyes, being in torments, and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

Luk 13:28 There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth when you will see Abraham and Isaac and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and yourselves being thrust out.

Luk 16:22 And it happened that the beggar died and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom. The rich one also died and was buried.

Do you need more ?

So you do not want to use the the books of Matthew to Revelation unless it can be used to go against Jesus?

[DRS]

So all Jews rejected God ?

So who is now the chosen people drs ?

No obviously some listened to the one He sent.

God's people are always those who serve Him, are you trying to say God is partial?

[Angryamerican]

So you do not want to use the the books of Matthew to Revelation unless it can be used to go against Jesus?

No i have seen enough contradiction. and i am disappointed i didn't get enough in to the ot to see the contradictions sooner.

Are the Jews still the chosen people ?

Can you tell me who the nt says are the chosen people?

Who is the one and only true religion in Christianity that declares all truth and unity as spoken of by the nt ?

We know that there was only one true religion in the ot .

That is how divisive the nt is.

[Angryamerican]

No obviously some listened to the one He sent.

God's people are always those who serve Him, are you trying to say God is partial?

Are you saying he wasn't when Israel became the chosen people ? But anyone can be a Jew.

[DRS]

No i have seen enough contradiction. and i am disappointed i didn't get enough in to the ot to see the contradictions sooner.

Are the Jews still the chosen people ?

Can you tell me who the nt says are the chosen people?

Who is the one and only true religion in Christianity that declares all truth and unity as spoken of by the nt ?

We know that there was only one true religion in the ot .

That is how divisive the nt is.

You obviously have not read enough to see the continuty of the bible of you think it contradicts itself

So which of all the branches of Judaism is God going to bless, I think there is only about 75 of them, or how about of the about 5 main ones which one is blessed in the OT?

[DRS]

Are you saying he wasn't when Israel became the chosen people ? But anyone can be a Jew.

Israel was used because of the faith of Abraham and god needed a nation to to show as an example and for the messiah to come through

even notice once the Jesus is dead God allows the destruction of the temple , the central records to be destroyed

[Angryamerican]

You obviously have not read enough to see the continuty of the bible of you think it contradicts itself

So which of all the branches of Judaism is God going to bless, I think there is only about 75 of them, or how about of the about 5 main ones which one is blessed in the OT?

I'm sure the messiah will make it clear. But what about the thousand different branches of Christianity which one is blessed from the nt ?

[Angryamerican]

Israel was used because of the faith of Abraham and god needed a nation to to show as an example and for the messiah to come through

even notice once the Jesus is dead God allows the destruction of the temple , the central records to be destroyed


Do you think that was the only time the temple was allowed to be destroyed ? It happened twice so what is your point ?

Oh come on he did show favor to a people because they were doing it right who is now doing it right ?

[DRS]

I'm sure the messiah will make it clear. But what about the thousand different branches of Christianity which one is blessed from the nt ?

So you believe that messiah will make it clear about which branch of judaism but not christianity?

Seems to me that if one reads the bible they should be able to after a study of what is taught find the path

[DRS]

Do you think that was the only time the temple was allowed to be destroyed ? It happened twice so what is your point ?

Oh come on he did show favor to a people because they were doing it right who is now doing it right ?

It was rebuilt once and the first time how many years has it been since it was destroyed the last time

What were the Jews doing right in Egypt?

How many adults made it from Egypt into the promised land?

[Angryamerican]

So you believe that messiah will make it clear about which branch of judaism but not christianity?

Seems to me that if one reads the bible they should be able to after a study of what is taught find the path


Don't spin drs. You know anyone who fell away from the truth was wrong. The Jews new more of what was expected from them then any Christian group please.

[Poisonshady313]

It was rebuilt once and the first time how many years has it been since it was destroyed the last time Who are you that God must operate according to your watch?

What were the Jews doing right in Egypt? Does it matter? They weren't doing anything wrong. They were oppressed and God heard their cries. (plus, prophecy dictated that they WOULD be taken out of Egypt to become a great nation).

How many adults made it from Egypt into the promised land?

2. But that's irrelevant.

The prophets Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob knew their children would be redeemed from Israel. And that was approximately 2 million people, give or take to account for the mixed multitude among them.

The prophets knew the nation would be redeemed from the Babylonian exile.

The prophets knew that Israel will be redeemed from this one.


Joshua led the Jews into Egypt.
Cyrus let them rebuilt the Temple
The Messiah will gather the exiles from the four corners of the earth, and the Temple will be rebuilt, and the world will acknowledge God.

God is not obligated to do what he does according to your schedule. God is not a liar. That the prophecies have not yet been fulfilled very simply means the Messiah has not yet come.

[DRS]

Don't spin drs. You know anyone who fell away from the truth was wrong. The Jews new more of what was expected from them then any Christian group please.

Your accussing me of spin when you pick and choose what books of the bible to use and when to use them?

You know what is interesting the prophecy found in Deuteronomy came true in 70CE do you know who were spared this?

[Poisonshady313]

Yes God kept His word to those who were faithful Jews

There were two prophecies on messiahs arrival in different forms Jesus fulfilled the one from Zepheniah one could not fulfill both at the same time

Rabbi Yehoshua ben Levi explained that the form in which the Messiah will appear depends on us. "If they merit, he will come 'on heavenly clouds.' If they do not merit, then he will be 'a pauper riding on a donkey'" [Sanhedrin 98a]. In other words, if the Jewish people attain a spiritual level high enough, they merit a supernatural redemption with wonders and miracles. If, however, the redemption arrives because it is the final hour for its arrival - but the Jewish people are not deserving - then the redemption will come through natural means [see Ohr HaChaim on Num. 24:17].

"A pauper riding on a donkey" is a metaphor for undeserved redemption without our merits, like the poverty of a poor man. It is a redemption based on natural processes, as exemplified by the donkey, a symbol of the material world.

[DRS]

Who are you that God must operate according to your watch?

Does it matter? They weren't doing anything wrong. They were oppressed and God heard their cries. (plus, prophecy dictated that they WOULD be taken out of Egypt to become a great nation).



2. But that's irrelevant.

The prophets Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob knew their children would be redeemed from Israel. And that was approximately 2 million people, give or take to account for the mixed multitude among them.

The prophets knew the nation would be redeemed from the Babylonian exile.

The prophets knew that Israel will be redeemed from this one.


Joshua led the Jews into Egypt.
Cyrus let them rebuilt the Temple
The Messiah will gather the exiles from the four corners of the earth, and the Temple will be rebuilt, and the world will acknowledge God.

God is not obligated to do what he does according to your schedule. God is not a liar. That the prophecies have not yet been fulfilled very simply means the Messiah has not yet come.

I am not the one to tell God how many times the messiah has to come to be called messiah

Joshua led them into the promised land

Right now the ingathering is taking place people from all nations are being given and invitation with the choice to make listen to the one sent by God or not

[37818]

3 persons do not make one personTrue. Who is saying three (3) persons are one person? Triniatian teaching is that there are three Persons who are the One God.


Since Jesus is called only begotten, first born and beginning of creation as well as his creation is laid out is described in Proverbs 8 22-30 it kind of leaves him less than AlmightyYes, Jesus as the Son of God is the only-begotten Son of God. (John 1:14; John 3:16; 1 John 4:9.) And refers to Him being uniquely God's Son. And not to be confused with the following:

Jesus being the firstborn and beginning of creation has to do with the fact that He as a man is the first to be rased to immotality.

"And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence." -- Colossians 1:18.

"For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. . . ." -- Romans 8:29.

"But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept." -- 1 Corinthians 15:20.

"And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, . . ." -- Revelation 1:5.

"God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee." -- Acts 13:33

__________

Now Proverb 8:22-30 is not speaking of the Son and is in the feminine being what the Son of God who is the LORD created and possessed for Himself (Colossians 1:16, 17.)

"Doth not wisdom cry? and understanding put forth her voice? . . . The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old." -- Proverbs 8:1-22.


If the Holy Spirit was a person he would have a name as all important people in the bible do, but since the word for this denotes an impersonal force it is something that is part of GodHe has a Name it is Johovah [Yehwah, YHWH, LORD, Eternal One, the existent One.]

You see in the Trinity teaching/explanation, the Father, Son of God and Holy Spirit are all the One LORD [the One Jehovah.]

Now those who hold the Modalist or Oneness view God the Father, Son and Holy Spirit to be only One Person.

[DRS]

Rabbi Yehoshua ben Levi explained that the form in which the Messiah will appear depends on us. "If they merit, he will come 'on heavenly clouds.' If they do not merit, then he will be 'a pauper riding on a donkey'" [Sanhedrin 98a]. In other words, if the Jewish people attain a spiritual level high enough, they merit a supernatural redemption with wonders and miracles. If, however, the redemption arrives because it is the final hour for its arrival - but the Jewish people are not deserving - then the redemption will come through natural means [see Ohr HaChaim on Num. 24:17].

"A pauper riding on a donkey" is a metaphor for undeserved redemption without our merits, like the poverty of a poor man. It is a redemption based on natural processes, as exemplified by the donkey, a symbol of the material world.

So one way or another a messianic prophecy will be left unfulfilled is what you are saying

[DRS]

True. Who is saying three (3) persons are one person? Triniatian teaching is that there are three Persons who are the One God.

Yes, Jesus as the Son of God is the only-begotten Son of God. (John 1:14; John 3:16; 1 John 4:9.) And refers to Him being uniquely God's Son. And not to be confused with the following:

Jesus being the firstborn and beginning of creation has to do with the fact that He as a man is the first to be rased to immotality.

"And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence." -- Colossians 1:18.

"For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. . . ." -- Romans 8:29.

"But now is Christ risen from the dead, [and] become the firstfruits of them that slept." -- 1 Corinthians 15:20.

"And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, . . ." -- Revelation 1:5.

"God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee." -- Acts 13:33

__________

Now Proverb 8:22-30 is not speaking of the Son and is in the feminine being what the Son of God who is the LORD created and possed for Himself (Colossians 1:16, 17.)

"Doth not wisdom cry? and understanding put forth her voice? . . . The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old." -- Proverbs 8:1-22.

He has a Name it is Johovah [Yehwah, YHWH, LORD, Eternal One, the existent One.]

You see in the Trinity teaching/explanation, the Father, Son of God and Holy Spirit are all the One LORD [the One Jehovah.]

Now those who hold the Modalist or Oneness view God the Father, Son and Holy Spirit to be only One Person.

Jesus is not Jehovah as shown in Pslam 110:1

Secondly the feminie word wisdom means nothing as the word congregator is considered feminine also but applies to Solomon

Even the church fathers aknowledged Proverbs was about Jesus they just tried to argue it differently using the same language you use about the beginning of creation

[37818]

Jesus is not Jehovah as shown in Pslam 110:1
No. The Lord Jesus is not Jehovah in Pslam 110:1. The man is NOT God. Jesus was BOTH God and a man. But He is called Jehovah by all the prophets, "To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins." -- Acts 10:43. (Isaiah 43:10, 11.)


And it is not my fault that those "church fathers" were totally wrong on Proverbs 8 regarding the Son of God. (John 1:3, 14; Colossians 1:16,17; Genesis 1:1.) Even as they were wrong about "begotten of the Father before all time." Which was at the root of the error of Arius.

[Poisonshady313]

13*“I kept on beholding in the visions of the night, and, see there! with the clouds of the heavens someone like a son of man happened to be coming; and to the Ancient of Days he gained access, and they brought him up close even before that One. 14*And to him there were given rulership and dignity and kingdom, that the peoples, national groups and languages should all serve even him. His rulership is an indefinitely lasting rulership that will not pass away, and his kingdom one that will not be brought to ruin.

This is the part where Jesus returns, he fulfilled the first part riding into Jerusalem on a donkey

Given that Jesus never was a ruler or a king... he certainly never sat on any throne or led any army... you'll sit here and say that the riding on a donkey thing is literal, but ruling as a king was not? :rolleyes:

[DRS]

What does Pslam 110:1 say

Was Jesus man then

When Jesus prayed I have made your name known whose name was it

Not one of the scriptures you quote makes Proverbs any less about Jesus

[DRS]

Given that Jesus never was a ruler or a king... he certainly never sat on any throne or led any army... you'll sit here and say that the riding on a donkey thing is literal, but ruling as a king was not? :rolleyes:

What was nailed above his head when he was killed?

oh and I never said that this was not literal, this happens before the second coming, he already came on a donkey

[Angryamerican]

Your accussing me of spin when you pick and choose what books of the bible to use and when to use them?

You know what is interesting the prophecy found in Deuteronomy came true in 70CE do you know who were spared this?

Should you not be able to prove Jesus is the only begotten son of God in the ot ?

By your opinion he is only the 2nd most powerful being in existence ?

I mean come on if he was the right hand to God where is he in the ot ?

[Poisonshady313]

So one way or another a messianic prophecy will be left unfulfilled is what you are saying

No. It's an either/or situation. Remember.. Daniels vision was that. A vision. He didn't say "The Messiah will arrive on clouds"

Maybe the clouds represent all the glorious prophecy fulfillment. After all, whether the Messiah comes in clouds or on a donkey, all of the prophecies expected will be fulfilled.

Fact is, if a guy lives his whole life and doesn't accomplish the messianic prophecies, riding on a donkey is a meaningless detail in one's life.

I'm sure millions of people have ridden donkeys in the history of the world. None of them are the Messiah.

[Angryamerican]

What was nailed above his head when he was killed?

oh and I never said that this was not literal, this happens before the second coming, he already came on a donkey

If the story was true it was meant as an insult or do you really think the jews would knowingly execute their messiah ?

[Poisonshady313]

What was nailed above his head when he was killed?

The romans put it there mockingly.

If someone does something stupid, and I sarcastically call him a genius (good going, genius), do you really believe that this person is a genius?

Elvis was more of a King than Jesus could have ever hoped to be.

[DRS]

No. It's an either/or situation. Remember.. Daniels vision was that. A vision. He didn't say "The Messiah will arrive on clouds"

Maybe the clouds represent all the glorious prophecy fulfillment. After all, whether the Messiah comes in clouds or on a donkey, all of the prophecies expected will be fulfilled.

Fact is, if a guy lives his whole life and doesn't accomplish the messianic prophecies, riding on a donkey is a meaningless detail in one's life.

I'm sure millions of people have ridden donkeys in the history of the world. None of them are the Messiah.

Oh so it is only a vision, so none of what Daniel saw is any good because it was only vision, hmm so one gets to pick and choose which prophecies that are fulfilled

[Poisonshady313]

If the story was true it was meant as an insult or do you really think the jews would knowingly execute their messiah ?

Don't be surprised if DRS' answer is that we knowingly killed our Messiah. He'll probably whip out a verse Jesus said about us killing our prophets and such. And either heard hearted, stiff necked, or stubborn will probably find its way into the post.

Give a Christian the opportunity to suggest the Jews were wrong, at fault, or purposely deceptive, and they'll take it.

[DRS]

If the story was true it was meant as an insult or do you really think the jews would knowingly execute their messiah ?

You mean like how they tried to stone Moses and their treatment of other prophets?

[Poisonshady313]

Oh so it is only a vision, so none of what Daniel saw is any good because it was only vision, hmm so one gets to pick and choose which prophecies that are fulfilled

First of all, for all the visions he had, he's never been listed as a prophet.

Second of all... Joseph (who isn't considered a prophet either) interpreted dreams... and they came true, but not in a literal fashion. There weren't skinny cows eating fat cows all over Egypt.

So similarly, whatever Daniel saw will come true, even if not in a literal fashion.

[DRS]

The romans put it there mockingly.

If someone does something stupid, and I sarcastically call him a genius (good going, genius), do you really believe that this person is a genius?

Elvis was more of a King than Jesus could have ever hoped to be.

What proof do you have it was done mockingly and why in 3 languages?

And why the Jews be opposed to this?

[Poisonshady313]

You mean like how they tried to stone Moses and their treatment of other prophets?

Part of the whole "being the messiah" gig is that the people don't have the luxury of saying "no" like they did back in the day.

It will be, and nobody will disagree.

Restoration of the Temple, world peace, in gathering of the exiles... once that happens, there's no such thing as "that's not the real guy, let's kill him"

[DRS]

First of all, for all the visions he had, he's never been listed as a prophet.

Second of all... Joseph (who isn't considered a prophet either) interpreted dreams... and they came true, but not in a literal fashion. There weren't skinny cows eating fat cows all over Egypt.

So similarly, whatever Daniel saw will come true, even if not in a literal fashion.

Daniel is not a prophet?

Yet he found along with the other prophets in biblical cannon and Jesus calls him a prophet also

[Poisonshady313]

What proof do you have it was done mockingly and why in 3 languages?

And why the Jews be opposed to this?

HE WAS NOT A KING. It's that simple.

In three languages because the audience would be made up of people who spoke any of the three languages.

If my forum name were "King of the Jews", would you take it to mean that I was truly a sovereign royal leader of the Jews?

[DRS]

Part of the whole "being the messiah" gig is that the people don't have the luxury of saying "no" like they did back in the day.

It will be, and nobody will disagree.

Restoration of the Temple, world peace, in gathering of the exiles... once that happens, there's no such thing as "that's not the real guy, let's kill him"

Yes because when he returns in the clouds as the prophet Daniel saw he will be bring judgment and those who denied him by word or deed will recieve their judgement.

Just as the promised land had a set time before judgment so does the Earth

[DRS]

HE WAS NOT A KING. It's that simple.

In three languages because the audience would be made up of people who spoke any of the three languages.

If my forum name were "King of the Jews", would you take it to mean that I was truly a sovereign royal leader of the Jews?

If you have the power of God's spirit upon you, and and teach people about God and uphold His name in all you do then sure, but you don't

[Angryamerican]

Don't be surprised if DRS' answer is that we knowingly killed our Messiah. He'll probably whip out a verse Jesus said about us killing our prophets and such. And either heard hearted, stiff necked, or stubborn will probably find its way into the post.

Give a Christian the opportunity to suggest the Jews were wrong, at fault, or purposely deceptive, and they'll take it.

I am seeing that is the case poison, unfortunately.

Yeah they seem to like to pile on for the mistakes made by Jews.

[NJConservative]

What proof do you have it was done mockingly and why in 3 languages?

And why the Jews be opposed to this?
It was done mockingly. The Romans understood Jesus claimed to be the messiah. By the Jewish definition, that means king or leader. Since the Romans installed the Jewish king, he was executed for sedition. The Romans mocked him with the title that He claimed and made an example of Him in case anyone else had the idea to call themselves the messiah.

The Romans didn't believe He was the messiah or king any more than the Jews did.

Three languages? Well, what did the local populace speak? 3 languages perhaps?

[Angryamerican]

What proof do you have it was done mockingly and why in 3 languages?

And why the Jews be opposed to this?

Did the romans send Jesus to the king of the Jews to be judged AKA herod ?

[Poisonshady313]

Daniel is not a prophet?

Yet he found along with the other prophets in biblical cannon

No, he's not.

Tanach... TaNaK...

Torah, Neviim, Ketuvim.

Five books of Moses, Prophets, Writings.

The prophets include Joshua, Judges, Samuel, Kings, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, and the 12 prophets.

Daniel is among the writings... with Job, Ruth, Esther Ezra, Nehemia, Psalms, Proverbs, Ecclesiastes, song of songs, Lamentations (not in that order)

and Jesus calls him a prophet also

He was wrong.

Understand that "Jesus said so" will never convince me of the validity of anything, other than the fact that the words are attributed to Jesus.

[Angryamerican]

Part of the whole "being the messiah" gig is that the people don't have the luxury of saying "no" like they did back in the day.

It will be, and nobody will disagree.

Restoration of the Temple, world peace, in gathering of the exiles... once that happens, there's no such thing as "that's not the real guy, let's kill him"

Amazingly that was missed by many of us .

[Poisonshady313]

If you have the power of God's spirit upon you, and and teach people about God and uphold His name in all you do then sure, but you don't

neither did Jesus.

[DRS]

Did the romans send Jesus to the king of the Jews to be judged AKA herod ?

Jesus was sent to many people and the people said their king was Caeser

[DRS]

neither did Jesus.

You have no proof of that you just hope he didn't

[Angryamerican]

Jesus was sent to many people and the people said their king was Caeser

So you answered your own question Jesus was not seen as a king literally. He was mocked for his claim.

[Poisonshady313]

You have no proof of that you just hope he didn't

The gospels themselves are proof that he didn't... you just disagree.

And that's fine.

[Angryamerican]

The gospels themselves are proof that he didn't... you just disagree.

And that's fine.

Bingo ;)

[DRS]

No, he's not.

Tanach... TaNaK...

Torah, Neviim, Ketuvim.

Five books of Moses, Prophets, Writings.

The prophets include Joshua, Judges, Samuel, Kings, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, and the 12 prophets.

Daniel is among the writings... with Job, Ruth, Esther Ezra, Nehemia, Psalms, Proverbs, Ecclesiastes, song of songs, Lamentations (not in that order)



He was wrong.

Understand that "Jesus said so" will never convince me of the validity of anything, other than the fact that the words are attributed to Jesus.

Lets see Daniel prophecied when messiah would come, he prophecied about how many world porld powers would stand up

Interesting to see you attack the Jewish prophets since they can show the two comings of messiah

[DRS]

Bingo ;)

Bit hypocritical Sonny since you used the gospels earllier to try and defend yourself

[DRS]

The gospels themselves are proof that he didn't... you just disagree.

And that's fine.

the gospels are proof he taught about God and he had His blessing

[Angryamerican]

Bit hypocritical Sonny since you used the gospels earllier to try and defend yourself

No just showing they are wrong and contradict the ot.

And both have parables.

[Poisonshady313]

the gospels are proof he taught about God and he had His blessing

That's one way of looking at it.

I have another.

[NJConservative]

the gospels are proof he taught about God and he had His blessing
Actually, the Gospels are proof that whoever wrote them attrubuted certain things to Jesus, that they thought Jesus had God's blessing, and they also included his breaking of God's commandments.

So when is a sin not a sin?

[Poisonshady313]

Lets see Daniel prophecied when messiah would come, he prophecied about how many world porld powers would stand up

Interesting to see you attack the Jewish prophets since they can show the two comings of messiah

If you never met me before, and you randomly came up to me and asked me "Who are the prophets of Judaism"... I'd list as many as I can remember from the top of my head.. and if you said "what about Daniel"... I'd say "nope."

Don't think i'm doing this conveniently for the sake of proving a point. When you make a mistake about Jewish law and tradition, I'll let you know about it.

Why is Daniel Not a Prophet?

It is often asked why the Book of Daniel is included in the Writings section of the Tanakh instead of the Prophets section. Wasn't Daniel a prophet? Weren't his visions of the future true?

According to Judaism, Daniel is not one of the 55 prophets. His writings include visions of the future, which we believe to be true; however, his mission was not that of a prophet. His visions of the future were never intended to be proclaimed to the people; they were designed to be written down for future generations. Thus, they are Writings, not Prophecies, and are classified accordingly.

http://www.mechon-mamre.org/jewfaq/prophet.htm

[Angryamerican]

Bit hypocritical Sonny since you used the gospels earllier to try and defend yourself

What are you getting so uptight about ?


But i find it strange, you don't second guess what you believe knowing that God made promises to the Jews. and i think he delivers on his promises don't you drs ?

[DRS]

No just showing they are wrong and contradict the ot.

And both have parables.

Show me parables from the books of Genesis to Malachi

The bible does not contradict itself anymore than it teaches God is a trinity, if one goes into with a view they already hold they will seek to find something to hold their preconcieved notions

[DRS]

If you never met me before, and you randomly came up to me and asked me "Who are the prophets of Judaism"... I'd list as many as I can remember from the top of my head.. and if you said "what about Daniel"... I'd say "nope."

Don't think i'm doing this conveniently for the sake of proving a point. When you make a mistake about Jewish law and tradition, I'll let you know about it.

Why is Daniel Not a Prophet?

It is often asked why the Book of Daniel is included in the Writings section of the Tanakh instead of the Prophets section. Wasn't Daniel a prophet? Weren't his visions of the future true?

According to Judaism, Daniel is not one of the 55 prophets. His writings include visions of the future, which we believe to be true; however, his mission was not that of a prophet. His visions of the future were never intended to be proclaimed to the people; they were designed to be written down for future generations. Thus, they are Writings, not Prophecies, and are classified accordingly.

http://www.mechon-mamre.org/jewfaq/prophet.htm


Hmm Isaiah and Jeremiah both had visions of the future that were written down, I guess they are not prophets either

[NJConservative]

Show me parables from the books of Genesis to Malachi

The bible does not contradict itself anymore than it teaches God is a trinity, if one goes into with a view they already hold they will seek to find something to hold their preconcieved notions

Exactly. I think you proved their point quite well.

[DRS]

Actually, the Gospels are proof that whoever wrote them attrubuted certain things to Jesus, that they thought Jesus had God's blessing, and they also included his breaking of God's commandments.

So when is a sin not a sin?

What laws did he break?

and please include from the bible the law that was broken

[Angryamerican]

Show me parables from the books of Genesis to Malachi

The bible does not contradict itself anymore than it teaches God is a trinity, if one goes into with a view they already hold they will seek to find something to hold their preconcieved notions

My preconceived beliefs was pretty close to yours when i started remember ?

[DRS]

What are you getting so uptight about ?


But i find it strange, you don't second guess what you believe knowing that God made promises to the Jews. and i think he delivers on his promises don't you drs ?

I am not uptight about anything

I have read the entire bible several times and I know what was prophesied regarding the Jews, before they even entered the promised land God said they would break the covenant and He told them exactly what would happen.

In 70 CE everything that God said would happen happened and the only ones who did not suffer the same fate then was those who listened to Jesus voice and fled

[DRS]

My preconceived beliefs was pretty close to yours when i started remember ?

You were confused over the trinity and the word god be used in connection with anyone other than Jehovah, and I showed how that can be done using the book of Exodus

[Angryamerican]

You were confused over the trinity and the word god be used in connection with anyone other than Jehovah, and I showed how that can be done using the book of Exodus

I think you have me confused with someone else. You may have done that but i don't remember it.

[Poisonshady313]

Hmm Isaiah and Jeremiah both had visions of the future that were written down, I guess they are not prophets either

A lot of what they had to say was meant for the people at the time. In fact, a lot of what Christians say are visions of the future by Isaiah and Jeremiah are really just for/about the people at that time.

Not only are they prophets... they're major prophets (as opposed to the 12 minor prophets.)

[NJConservative]

What laws did he break?

and please include from the bible the law that was broken

Try commandment #4, Remember the Sabbath and keep it holy.

Written in God's own hand and given to Moses.

Or is that no good for you, since it's OT?

[Poisonshady313]

Show me parables from the books of Genesis to Malachi

The bible does not contradict itself anymore than it teaches God is a trinity, if one goes into with a view they already hold they will seek to find something to hold their preconcieved notions

A famous and quite ancient Old Testament example is the parable of the Ewe Lamb which the prophet Nathan addressed to David. After the king had arranged the death of Bathsheba's husband on the battlefield so that he might himself marry Bathsheba, Nathan told him this story:

12 There were two men in a certain city, the one rich and the other poor. The rich man had very many flocks and herds; but the poor man had nothing but one little ewe lamb, which he had bought. And he brought it up, and it grew up with him and with his children; it used to eat of his morsel, and drink from his cup, and lie in his bosom, and it was like a daughter to him. Now there came a traveler to the rich man, and he was unwilling to take one of his own flock or herd to prepare for the wayfarer who had come to him, but he took the poor man's lamb, and prepared it for the man who had come to him.
(2 Sam 12:1-4)

When David condemned the man who had done this as deserving to die, Nathan revealed that the story was a parable, saying, "You are the man" (v. 7). For other Old Testament parables see 2 Sam 14:5-l3; I Kgs 20:39-42; Isa 5:1-7; 28:2129; Ezek 17:1-24; 19:1-14; 20:45-49; 24:3-14.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/religion/jesus/parables.html

[DRS]

A lot of what they had to say was meant for the people at the time. In fact, a lot of what Christians say are visions of the future by Isaiah and Jeremiah are really just for/about the people at that time.

Not only are they prophets... they're major prophets (as opposed to the 12 minor prophets.)

So Isaiah's prophecy concerning Cyrus was for the Jews then, Daniel's words were also for those around him at that time

Daniel knew the exile would end soon because of the future prophecy of Jeremiah

[DRS]

Try commandment #4, Remember the Sabbath and keep it holy.

Written in God's own hand and given to Moses.

Or is that no good for you, since it's OT?

Oh you mean him healing on the sabbath?

[DRS]

A famous and quite ancient Old Testament example is the parable of the Ewe Lamb which the prophet Nathan addressed to David. After the king had arranged the death of Bathsheba's husband on the battlefield so that he might himself marry Bathsheba, Nathan told him this story:

12 There were two men in a certain city, the one rich and the other poor. The rich man had very many flocks and herds; but the poor man had nothing but one little ewe lamb, which he had bought. And he brought it up, and it grew up with him and with his children; it used to eat of his morsel, and drink from his cup, and lie in his bosom, and it was like a daughter to him. Now there came a traveler to the rich man, and he was unwilling to take one of his own flock or herd to prepare for the wayfarer who had come to him, but he took the poor man's lamb, and prepared it for the man who had come to him.
(2 Sam 12:1-4)

When David condemned the man who had done this as deserving to die, Nathan revealed that the story was a parable, saying, "You are the man" (v. 7). For other Old Testament parables see 2 Sam 14:5-l3; I Kgs 20:39-42; Isa 5:1-7; 28:2129; Ezek 17:1-24; 19:1-14; 20:45-49; 24:3-14.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/religion/jesus/parables.html

So who is Daniel giving this parable to then when he sees the vision, all parables in the bible have an audience

Nathan to david
Jesus to the crowds

and how is other parts of this vision have already come to pass?

[Angryamerican]

Oh you mean him healing on the sabbath?

DRS i think it is time for you to punt my friend.

[DRS]

I think you have me confused with someone else. You may have done that but i don't remember it.

You do not remember the scriptures in Exodus where Jehovah says to Moses I will make God to pharoah and Aaron?

[NJConservative]

Oh you mean him healing on the sabbath?

Yes, I mean him healing that which should have waited until the Sabbath was over. Unless of course you think God was kidding when he told his people to remember the sabbath and keep it holy.

Can't have it both ways.

[DRS]

DRS i think it is time for you to punt my friend.

Hey if one is going to slander the one sent by Jehovah then they should prove it beyond all doubt

[DRS]

Yes, I mean him healing that which should have waited until the Sabbath was over. Unless of course you think God was kidding when he told his people to remember the sabbath and keep it holy.

Can't have it both ways.

So the Jews should not circumcise nor sacrifice on the sabbath then according to your interpratation?

[Poisonshady313]

Oh you mean him healing on the sabbath?

Sinless Jesus? (http://www.messiahtruth.com/sinless.html)

The link above outlines everything on the matter of the sins Jesus committed very nicely.

[Poisonshady313]

So the Jews should not circumcise nor sacrifice on the sabbath then according to your interpratation?

Certain sacrifices were commanded to be done specifically on the sabbath... and circumcision was never forbidden on the sabbath.

Perhaps you could benefit from learning what the laws regarding the sabbath are... what is classified as "work".

Google the word "melachot". Take a look at any of the first few links.

[Angryamerican]

You do not remember the scriptures in Exodus where Jehovah says to Moses I will make God to pharoah and Aaron?

Yes i do remember i am sorry but i'm missing your point ?

[NJConservative]

So the Jews should not circumcise nor sacrifice on the sabbath then according to your interpratation?

I'm not aware that they do circumcise on the Sabbath, nor will they bury their dead on the Sabbath. Sacrifice I'm not sure about since it was part of their worship.

[Poisonshady313]

So who is Daniel giving this parable to then when he sees the vision, all parables in the bible have an audience

Nathan to david
Jesus to the crowds

and how is other parts of this vision have already come to pass?

I was simply showing that the Tanach has parables, as part of your conversation with angryamerican, not with your conversation with me.

A vision is a vision. Not a parable.

[DRS]

Certain sacrifices were commanded to be done specifically on the sabbath... and circumcision was never forbidden on the sabbath.

Perhaps you could benefit from learning what the laws regarding the sabbath are... what is classified as "work".

Google the word "melachot". Take a look at any of the first few links.

i know what was lawful and what was not, I was asking the person making accusation

[Angryamerican]

Hey if one is going to slander the one sent by Jehovah then they should prove it beyond all doubt

I think it has been done. And i disagree that he was the one that was gonna come from the line of David that was gonna rebuild the temple and bring peace to all mankind.

[Poisonshady313]

I'm not aware that they do circumcise on the Sabbath, nor will they bury their dead on the Sabbath. Sacrifice I'm not sure about since it was part of their worship.

They sure do circumcise on the Sabbath.

The 8th day should only be postponed if the child isn't healthy enough to be circumcised on the right day.

[DRS]

I'm not aware that they do circumcise on the Sabbath, nor will they bury their dead on the Sabbath. Sacrifice I'm not sure about since it was part of their worship.

You were not aware but yet you could accuse Jesus of breaking the law?

[Poisonshady313]

i know what was lawful and what was not, I was asking the person making accusation

His answer is basically the same as what my answer would be to your question... based on that, I'm willing to assume he knows more about what is or isn't lawful for Jews to do on the sabbath.

[Angryamerican]

You were not aware but yet you could accuse Jesus of breaking the law?

Did you see poisons post ? A part of worship would that not be keeping it Holy ?

[Poisonshady313]

You were not aware but yet you could accuse Jesus of breaking the law?

You've managed to prove nothing more than NJConservative isn't a master of Jewish law.

But when he's right, he's right.

[DRS]

I think it has been done. And i disagree that he was the one that was gonna come from the line of David that was gonna rebuild the temple and bring peace to all mankind.

So who is going to be the messiah since the timetable for messiah to show has passed or do you subscribe to the idea that the messiah of Daniel is Agrippa or Herod

By the way since the some they are the messiah of Daniel's prophecy we should see and example of them being smeared with oil in scripture should we not?

[NJConservative]

You were not aware but yet you could accuse Jesus of breaking the law?

Sorry, but I don't think I accused Jesus of circumcising on the Sabbath. However, now that I think about it, it makes sense that they do because they're fulfiling another of God's commandments to them.

But yes, I specifically asked about the healing in another thread and was given an answer that I accept in no uncertain terms that at least some of his healings would have been considered sin.

And, no, I don't accuse Him of breaking God's law, the Gospels document it quite well enought for me to conclude that He did.

Sorry if you were confused.

[DRS]

Did you see poisons post ? A part of worship would that not be keeping it Holy ?

Ia it not Holy and lawful to do something that brings praise to God?

[Angryamerican]

So who is going to be the messiah since the timetable for messiah to show has passed or do you subscribe to the idea that the messiah of Daniel is Agrippa or Herod

By the way since the some they are the messiah of Daniel's prophecy we should see and example of them being smeared with oil in scripture should we not?

Someone from the line of david and when God wills it.

I think poison covered it already with you. I am learning as well but i have seen enough to be convinced i have been wrong for many years.

[Poisonshady313]

By the way since the some they are the messiah of Daniel's prophecy we should see and example of them being smeared with oil in scripture should we not?

In the Tanach, moshiach is used 38 times: two patriarchs, six high priests, once for Cyrus, 29 Israelite kings such as Saul and David.

Can you tell me how many of those 38 times we hear explicitly about what was smeared on their heads?

[Poisonshady313]

Ia it not Holy and lawful to do something that brings praise to God?

Not if it violates the 39 melachot, unless it's an immediate life or death situation.

If there was a man who was blind from birth... he could have waited a few hours, until the sabbath was over.

[DRS]

Sorry, but I don't think I accused Jesus of circumcising on the Sabbath. However, now that I think about it, it makes sense that they do because they're fulfiling another of God's commandments to them.

But yes, I specifically asked about the healing in another thread and was given an answer that I accept in no uncertain terms that at least some of his healings would have been considered sin.

And, no, I don't accuse Him of breaking God's law, the Gospels document it quite well enought for me to conclude that He did.

Sorry if you were confused.

Is not helping others also a command given to them?

[Poisonshady313]

By the way since the some they are the messiah of Daniel's prophecy we should see and example of them being smeared with oil in scripture should we not?

The direct answer to this question, without answering it with another question, is no, we should not.

I'm sure these men were all human beings... would you like a chapter written for every meal they've ever eaten in their entire lifetime?

[DRS]

Not if it violates the 39 melachot, unless it's an immediate life or death situation.

If there was a man who was blind from birth... he could have waited a few hours, until the sabbath was over.

I am sorry where do I find that in the bible

I guess it is true as stated in Proverbs mercies of the wicked ones are cruel

[Poisonshady313]

Is not helping others also a command given to them?

Not if it violates the 39 melachot, unless it's a life/death situation.

[DRS]

In the Tanach, moshiach is used 38 times: two patriarchs, six high priests, once for Cyrus, 29 Israelite kings such as Saul and David.

Can you tell me how many of those 38 times we hear explicitly about what was smeared on their heads?

just repeating an arguement used earlier by your sister in an attack on why Jesus was not messiah

[Poisonshady313]

I am sorry where do I find that in the bible

I guess it is true as stated in Proverbs mercies of the wicked ones are cruel

It's God's law, not man's. If you believe God is cruel, I guess you're entitled to your opinion.


Read about the construction of the tabernacle.

The talmud gives a simple, easy to read list... but they are taken from the chapters in the Torah that talk about the construction of the tabernacle.

1. Sowing

2. Plowing

3. Reaping

4. Binding Sheaves

5. Threshing

6. Winnowing

7. Selecting

8. Grinding

9. Sifting

10. Kneading

11. Baking

12. Shearing

13. Bleaching

14. Hackling

15. Dyeing

16. Spinning

17. Stretching the threads

18. The making of two meshes

19. Weaving two threads

20. Dividing two threads

21. Tying a knot

22. Untying a knot

23. Sewing two stitches

24. Tearing in order to sew two stitches

25. Capturing (an animal)

26. Slaughtering

27. Flaying

28. Salting

29. Curing hide

30. Scraping

31. Cutting

32. Writing two letters

33. Erasing in order to write two letters

34. Building

35. Demolishing

36. Extinguishing fire

37. Kindling fire

38. Striking with a hammer (i.e. giving something its final touch)

39. Carrying (in a public domain, or from a private domain to a public domain, and vice versa).

[DRS]

Someone from the line of david and when God wills it.

I think poison covered it already with you. I am learning as well but i have seen enough to be convinced i have been wrong for many years.

So tell me how will one prove they are from the messianic line since Josephus talks about the records destroyed with the temple.

All that are left are unofficial peronal family ones, and like any personal family geanology one can put anyone in there if they so wish too

[DRS]

It's God's law, not man's. If you believe God is cruel, I guess you're entitled to your opinion.


Read about the construction of the tabernacle.

The talmud gives a simple, easy to read list... but they are taken from the chapters in the Torah that talk about the construction of the tabernacle.

1. Sowing

2. Plowing

3. Reaping

4. Binding Sheaves

5. Threshing

6. Winnowing

7. Selecting

8. Grinding

9. Sifting

10. Kneading

11. Baking

12. Shearing

13. Bleaching

14. Hackling

15. Dyeing

16. Spinning

17. Stretching the threads

18. The making of two meshes

19. Weaving two threads

20. Dividing two threads

21. Tying a knot

22. Untying a knot

23. Sewing two stitches

24. Tearing in order to sew two stitches

25. Capturing (an animal)

26. Slaughtering

27. Flaying

28. Salting

29. Curing hide

30. Scraping

31. Cutting

32. Writing two letters

33. Erasing in order to write two letters

34. Building

35. Demolishing

36. Extinguishing fire

37. Kindling fire

38. Striking with a hammer (i.e. giving something its final touch)

39. Carrying (in a public domain, or from a private domain to a public domain, and vice versa).

Well then you should be able to use the bible then

[Angryamerican]

So tell me how will one prove they are from the messianic line since Josephus talks about the records destroyed with the temple.

All that are left are unofficial peronal family ones, and like any personal family geanology one can put anyone in there if they so wish too

Uniting Israel and rebuilding the temple might help .

[Poisonshady313]

just repeating an arguement used earlier by your sister in an attack on why Jesus was not messiah

It was just as true when she said it as it is when I say it.

If you're accusing me of reposting one of her posts... shame on you. I am my own person. We both simply happen to know why Jesus isn't the Messiah.

[Poisonshady313]

Well then you should be able to use the bible then

Do your own homework.

[Poisonshady313]

So tell me how will one prove they are from the messianic line since Josephus talks about the records destroyed with the temple.

All that are left are unofficial peronal family ones, and like any personal family geanology one can put anyone in there if they so wish too

When the temple is rebuilt, and the exiles are gathered, and there's world peace, and some guy is acting as a judge for all nations.... I can assure you, my first question will not be "Are you SURE you're from David? How can you be so sure?"

[DRS]

Do your own homework.

Your the one arguing it I provide the scriptures for my arguement when I say they exist

[NJConservative]

Is not helping others also a command given to them?

Sure, but I'm sure there are plenty of commandments that shouldn't be done on the Sabbath, (like burying their dead in a particular manner), because to Jews, the Sabbath would take precidence out of respect to God and God's commandments to them.

[DRS]

Uniting Israel and rebuilding the temple might help .

People are being given the chance to unite now, just as when God freed the jews from Babylonian rule only those who chose to take up the invitation are the ones who will enjoy the blessings

[DRS]

Sure, but I'm sure there are plenty of commandments that shouldn't be done on the Sabbath, (like burying their dead in a particular manner), because to Jews, the Sabbath would take precidence out of respect to God and God's commandments to them.

You help someone suffering you are honouring and respecting God's creation

If one is in pain ro suffering on the sabbath would they not do something to stop that pain

[Angryamerican]

People are being given the chance to unite now, just as when God freed the jews from Babylonian rule only those who chose to take up the invitation are the ones who will enjoy the blessings

What about the temple and world peace ?

[NJConservative]

You help someone suffering you are honouring and respecting God's creation

If one is in pain ro suffering on the sabbath would they not do something to stop that pain

Ok, one more time

Remember the sabbath and keep it Holy.

Holy:

Dedicated to a religious purpose or a god.
To be revered according to a religion.God's words have purpose, so yes.

To save a live? I'm with you.

To relieve severe pain or suffering? Sure, go for it.

To cure a blind man who couldn't see from birth? Not so much.

[Poisonshady313]

You help someone suffering you are honouring and respecting God's creation

If one is in pain ro suffering on the sabbath would they not do something to stop that pain

If it can be done without violating the laws of Shabbat, then yes, something should be done.

[DRS]

Ok, one more time

Remember the sabbath and keep it Holy.

Holy:

Dedicated to a religious purpose or a god.
To be revered according to a religion.God's words have purpose, so yes.

To save a live? I'm with you.

To relieve severe pain or suffering? Sure, go for it.

To cure a blind man who couldn't see from birth? Not so much.


Show me the account of Jesus curing a blind man on the sabbath

Jesus cured a woman in pain, a man suffering from dropsy, a man with deformity and one who could not walk

Now tell me which one was not suffering and did not deserve to be freed from their disability

[DRS]

If it can be done without violating the laws of Shabbat, then yes, something should be done.

Jesus did not operate, he did not bandage them, he touched them and it was God's spirit that was active upon him that healed

If the second command is to love one's neighbour as one's self then Jesus did as commanded

[Poisonshady313]

Show me the account of Jesus curing a blind man on the sabbath John 9

Jesus cured a woman in pain, a man suffering from dropsy, a man with deformity and one who could not walk

Now tell me which one was not suffering and did not deserve to be freed from their disability

Tell me which one of them couldn't have waited until sundown.

[Poisonshady313]

Jesus did not operate, he did not bandage them, he touched them and it was God's spirit that was active upon him that healed

He asked one guy to carry his bed outside. He made clay and spread it over a blind man's face and told him to go wash it off.

If the second command is to love one's neighbour as one's self then Jesus did as commanded

Would you then say the prohibition against theft (thou shalt not steal) is null and void if someone decides they're hungry.... because after all, it would be done from the love of one's neighbor?

[DRS]

What about the temple and world peace ?

The time for the land to answer for their error is not here yet just as it was not at the time of Abraham for the promised land

The Earthly temple like all things set up was just a shadow of what was to come and that which is heavenly

In the year that King Uz‧zi′ah died I, however, got to see Jehovah, sitting on a throne lofty and lifted up, and his skirts were filling the temple. 2*Seraphs were standing above him. Each one had six wings. With two he kept his face covered, and with two he kept his feet covered, and with two he would fly about. 3*And this one called to that one and said: “Holy, holy, holy is Jehovah of armies. The fullness of all the earth is his glory.” 4*And the pivots of the thresholds began to quiver at the voice of the one calling, and the house itself gradually filled with smoke.

[NJConservative]

Show me the account of Jesus curing a blind man on the sabbath

Jesus cured a woman in pain, a man suffering from dropsy, a man with deformity and one who could not walk

Now tell me which one was not suffering and did not deserve to be freed from their disability

John 9, KJV
1 And as [Jesus] passed by, he saw a man which was blind from [his] birth.
...
14 And it was the sabbath day when Jesus made the clay, and opened his eyes.

By any definition, work on the Sabbath that could have waited.

[DRS]

He asked one guy to carry his bed outside. He made clay and spread it over a blind man's face and told him to go wash it off.



Would you then say the prohibition against theft (thou shalt not steal) is null and void if someone decides they're hungry.... because after all, it would be done from the love of one's neighbor?

It is ony a cruel person who would withhold relieving one from a disability, the law is about love and mercy not burden

If your neighbour is hungry feed him

[Reeder]

John 9, KJV
1 And as [Jesus] passed by, he saw a man which was blind from [his] birth.
...
14 And it was the sabbath day when Jesus made the clay, and opened his eyes.

By any definition, work on the Sabbath that could have waited.

The Sabbath was made for man.....not the other way around. Jehovah (Christ) was the one who gave that commandment. I think He understands it best.

[DRS]

John 9, KJV
1 And as [Jesus] passed by, he saw a man which was blind from [his] birth.
...
14 And it was the sabbath day when Jesus made the clay, and opened his eyes.

By any definition, work on the Sabbath that could have waited.

since miracles are from God do you think God would have given Jesus that power on the sabbath if God thought His law was being violated?

[Poisonshady313]

It is ony a cruel person who would withhold relieving one from a disability, the law is about love and mercy not burden

If your neighbour is hungry feed him

Let him come into your house, and give him all the food he desires. Don't go slaughtering animals on the sabbath when it is unlawful to do so.

There are ways to help people without violating the sabbath.

[DRS]

John 9



Tell me which one of them couldn't have waited until sundown.

From who does the power to perform miracles originate?

[DRS]

Let him come into your house, and give him all the food he desires. Don't go slaughtering animals on the sabbath when it is unlawful to do so.

There are ways to help people without violating the sabbath.

No need to slaughter an anilmal I go to the store

[Poisonshady313]

since miracles are from God do you think God would have given Jesus that power on the sabbath if God thought His law was being violated?

There's the possibility that the man was faking, and declared it a miracle after he washed his face.

There's the possibility that the event never happened.

There's the possibility that God granted him the ability to perform signs and wonders to test the Jews, that they shouldn't be taken in by such things (and the ones who became Christians failed). You can read in Deuteronomy about God's tendency to grant power to false prophets in order to test the Jews' loyalty.

[Poisonshady313]

No need to slaughter an anilmal I go to the store

You should have everything you need before the sabbath.

We learn about that when the Jews were in the desert, told not to go out of their tents to retrieve manna on the sabbath, because there would be a double portion on the day before... and some went out on the sabbath anyway... and they were punished for it.

Only in a life/death situation is it permissible to violate the sabbath.\

If someone is having a heart attack on the sabbath, it is an obligation to pick up the phone (an otherwise violation of the sabbath) and call an ambulance.... or drive (an otherwise violation of the sabbath) him or her to the hospital yourself.

However... if I've been blind from birth, waiting a couple of hours won't kill me.

[NJConservative]

The Sabbath was made for man.....not the other way around. Jehovah (Christ) was the one who gave that commandment. I think He understands it best.

Then one would wonder why He didn't follow it as an example, as he commanded His chosen people to do.

I must have missed where Jesus said "Do as I say, not as I do".

[Poisonshady313]

From who does the power to perform miracles originate?

God.

God also grants miracles to false prophets in order to test the loyalty of the Jews. Its in Deuteronomy.

[DRS]

There's the possibility that the man was faking, and declared it a miracle after he washed his face.

There's the possibility that the event never happened.

There's the possibility that God granted him the ability to perform signs and wonders to test the Jews, that they shouldn't be taken in by such things (and the ones who became Christians failed). You can read in Deuteronomy about God's tendency to grant power to false prophets in order to test the Jews' loyalty.

So your using something you believe could be false to try and discredit Jesus?

you have an account of God testing people using evil?

[DRS]

You should have everything you need before the sabbath.

We learn about that when the Jews were in the desert, told not to go out of their tents to retrieve manna on the sabbath, because there would be a double portion on the day before... and some went out on the sabbath anyway... and they were punished for it.

Only in a life/death situation is it permissible to violate the sabbath.\

If someone is having a heart attack on the sabbath, it is an obligation to pick up the phone (an otherwise violation of the sabbath) and call an ambulance.... or drive (an otherwise violation of the sabbath) him or her to the hospital yourself.

However... if I've been blind from birth, waiting a couple of hours won't kill me.

And God did not make ir rain manna on the sabbath

Ah yes what is hours more of suffering when one has suffered for years

why bother calling the ambulance he will die anyways at some point no point in violating the sabbath

[Poisonshady313]

So your using something you believe could be false to try and discredit Jesus? If it's a violation of Jewish law, it's a violation of Jewish law, whether it's history or fiction. Christians are famous for telling people how Harry Potter is a sinner for practicing witchcraft. The fact that he's a fictional character doesn't stop them from judging him according to a law they don't believe they're under in the first place.

you have an account of God testing people using evil?
Deuteronomy 13

2. If there will arise among you a prophet, or a dreamer of a dream, and he gives you a sign or a wonder,
3. and the sign or the wonder of which he spoke to you happens, [and he] says, "Let us go after other gods which you have not known, and let us worship them,"
4. you shall not heed the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of a dream; for the Lord, your God, is testing you, to know whether you really love the Lord, your God, with all your heart and with all your soul.

[Poisonshady313]

And God did not make ir rain manna on the sabbath

Ah yes what is hours more of suffering when one has suffered for years

why bother calling the ambulance he will die anyways at some point no point in violating the sabbath

Judaism takes life a little more seriously, and holds it a little more sacredly than your sarcasm has room for. Of course a life and death situation is treated immediately. Nothing is more important than preserving life.

If a guy lived through several hundred sabbaths in the same condition, he'll live through this one.

[DRS]

Actually first magic is condemmed throughout the entire bible

Secondly if you say the account is not true but it is fiction then you are accusing him of nothing.

It does not say God gives them the power just that they are being tested, God allowing it was a test

[DRS]

Judaism takes life a little more seriously, and holds it a little more sacredly than your sarcasm has room for. Of course a life and death situation is treated immediately. Nothing is more important than preserving life.

If a guy lived through several hundred sabbaths in the same condition, he'll live through this one.

Do you know for sure he will die, what happens if it turned out to be anxiety or heart burn you have violated sabbath and it was not life or death

[Angryamerican]

You should have everything you need before the sabbath.

We learn about that when the Jews were in the desert, told not to go out of their tents to retrieve manna on the sabbath, because there would be a double portion on the day before... and some went out on the sabbath anyway... and they were punished for it.

Only in a life/death situation is it permissible to violate the sabbath.\

If someone is having a heart attack on the sabbath, it is an obligation to pick up the phone (an otherwise violation of the sabbath) and call an ambulance.... or drive (an otherwise violation of the sabbath) him or her to the hospital yourself.

However... if I've been blind from birth, waiting a couple of hours won't kill me.

Somehow i believe that will just go over his head.

[NJConservative]

Do you know for sure he will die, what happens if it turned out to be anxiety or heart burn you have violated sabbath and it was not life or death

:)). Running out of cogent arguments already?

-500

[Angryamerican]

Actually first magic is condemmed throughout the entire bible

Secondly if you say the account is not true but it is fiction then you are accusing him of nothing.

It does not say God gives them the power just that they are being tested, God allowing it was a test

Oh boy. :think:

[Poisonshady313]

Secondly if you say the account is not true but it is fiction then you are accusing him of nothing. That's like saying Voldemort didn't kill Harry Potter's parents. Of course the story is fiction... but according to the text, Voldemort did indeed kill Harry Potter's parents.

Whether Jesus did it or not, it being done was wrong. If it was done, it was done by a power granted by God to test the people... and the people who believed in Jesus failed the test.

[Poisonshady313]

Do you know for sure he will die, what happens if it turned out to be anxiety or heart burn you have violated sabbath and it was not life or death

If you think inaction means he'll die, then act. If you turn out to be mistaken, you won't be held accountable for something learned after the fact.

[DRS]

:)). Running out of cogent arguments already?

-500

Nope just showing the adsurd lengths one has gone to.

There is nothing in the bible that says you can only help others in life and death situations on the sabbath

[Angryamerican]

Nope just showing the adsurd lengths one has gone to.

There is nothing in the bible that says you can only help others in life and death situations on the sabbath

How bout blood transfusions ? Is that helping someone?

[DRS]

That's like saying Voldemort didn't kill Harry Potter's parents. Of course the story is fiction... but according to the text, Voldemort did indeed kill Harry Potter's parents.

Whether Jesus did it or not, it being done was wrong. If it was done, it was done by a power granted by God to test the people... and the people who believed in Jesus failed the test.

It does not say God will empower people to perform miracles to test them

When God wanted to test the people regarding manna did he make it rain manna on the sabbath to see who would pick it?

[DRS]

How bout blood transfusions ? Is that helping someone?

The bible says abstain from blood in Genesis, Levitcus and Acts

God says blood belongs to Him

The question becomes which do i fear most death or showing a lack of faith in the resurrection, that rule is on regardless of the day of the week

you ever notice this rule from God went to Noah, Israel and then the Christian, do you know of any other rule uttered to all three?

[DRS]

If you think inaction means he'll die, then act. If you turn out to be mistaken, you won't be held accountable for something learned after the fact.

At the end of the day you have stated miracles are performed by the power of God so since this was done by God's power then you are saying God violated the sabbath, I guess than makes you God's judge

[DispensationalJim]

Back from a wonderful week in California! Just caught up and it looks like you guys have been reasonably civil to each other. Good for you.

I thought I should remind everyone of what Jesus said about the Sabbath:

• Matt. 12:5 Or have ye not read in the law, how that on the sabbath days the priests in the temple profane the sabbath, and are blameless? ... 8 For the Son of man is Lord even of the sabbath day. ... 11 And he said unto them, What man shall there be among you, that shall have one sheep, and if it fall into a pit on the sabbath day, will he not lay hold on it, and lift it out? 12 How much then is a man better than a sheep? Wherefore it is lawful to do well on the sabbath days.
• Mark 2:27 And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath: 28 Therefore the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath. ... 3:2 And they watched him, whether he would heal him on the sabbath day; that they might accuse him. ... 4 And he saith unto them, Is it lawful to do good on the sabbath days, or to do evil? to save life, or to kill?
• Luke 6:5 And he said unto them, That the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath.

Sure sounds to me as if Jesus Himself believed He was The Messiah, doesn't it? But, then, He confirmed that clearly in this famous passage, too:
• Matt. 16:15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am? 16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. 17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

Christ is defined here:
• John 1:41 He first findeth his own brother Simon, and saith unto him, We have found the Messias, which is, being interpreted, the Christ.
• John 4:25 The woman saith unto him, I know that Messias cometh, which is called Christ: when he is come, he will tell us all things.

Then, of course, Jesus is called Christ over 500 times in the NT.

===============================

Another question on that topic:
What if Jesus knew He was leaving the area before sundown and would not be coming back to that place to be able to heal that man at some later time?

[NJConservative]

Nope just showing the adsurd lengths one has gone to.

There is nothing in the bible that says you can only help others in life and death situations on the sabbath

No, you're just making absurd arguments because you've run out of serious ones.

[Angryamerican]

Back from a wonderful week in California! Just caught up and it looks like you guys have been reasonably civil to each other. Good for you.

I thought I should remind everyone of what Jesus said about the Sabbath:

• Matt. 12:5 Or have ye not read in the law, how that on the sabbath days the priests in the temple profane the sabbath, and are blameless? ... 8 For the Son of man is Lord even of the sabbath day. ... 11 And he said unto them, What man shall there be among you, that shall have one sheep, and if it fall into a pit on the sabbath day, will he not lay hold on it, and lift it out? 12 How much then is a man better than a sheep? Wherefore it is lawful to do well on the sabbath days.
• Mark 2:27 And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath: 28 Therefore the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath. ... 3:2 And they watched him, whether he would heal him on the sabbath day; that they might accuse him. ... 4 And he saith unto them, Is it lawful to do good on the sabbath days, or to do evil? to save life, or to kill?
• Luke 6:5 And he said unto them, That the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath.

Sure sounds to me as if Jesus Himself believed He was The Messiah, doesn't it? But, then, He confirmed that clearly in this famous passage, too:
• Matt. 16:15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am? 16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. 17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

Christ is defined here:
• John 1:41 He first findeth his own brother Simon, and saith unto him, We have found the Messias, which is, being interpreted, the Christ.
• John 4:25 The woman saith unto him, I know that Messias cometh, which is called Christ: when he is come, he will tell us all things.

Then, of course, Jesus is called Christ over 500 times in the NT.

===============================

Another question on that topic:
What if Jesus knew He was leaving the area before sundown and would not be coming back to that place to be able to heal that man at some later time?

But zero times in the ot jim.

[DRS]

No, you're just making absurd arguments because you've run out of serious ones.

Well like I said since it has been aknowledged that it is from God that the power to perform miracles comes then it is God you are accusing of breaking the sabbath

[NJConservative]

Well like I said since it has been aknowledged that it is from God that the power to perform miracles comes then it is God you are accusing of breaking the sabbath

That's a little better.

But not quite accurate either. The power to perform miracles comes from God, that much is true. However the choice of when to perform those miracles is up to the one to which God granted the power.

Man has the power to murder, and if a man does murder, do we accuse God of murder because he granted man the ability to wrongfully take life?

[DRS]

That's a little better.

But not quite accurate either. The power to perform miracles comes from God, that much is true. However the choice of when to perform those miracles is up to the one to which God granted the power.

Man has the power to murder, and if a man does murder, do we accuse God of murder because he granted man the ability to wrongfully take life?

If God did not want the miracle performed He could have pervented it, the ability to take life is not the same as perform a miracle of healing anyone can murder but only those who are given the chance to be the vessel through which God acts can heal

Healing is not like performing surgery, the one healing shows that it is from God that the power comes, and teaching people about God does not violate the sabbath

[NJConservative]

Back from a wonderful week in California! Just caught up and it looks like you guys have been reasonably civil to each other. Good for you.

I thought I should remind everyone of what Jesus said about the Sabbath:

• Matt. 12:5 Or have ye not read in the law, how that on the sabbath days the priests in the temple profane the sabbath, and are blameless? ... 8 For the Son of man is Lord even of the sabbath day. ... 11 And he said unto them, What man shall there be among you, that shall have one sheep, and if it fall into a pit on the sabbath day, will he not lay hold on it, and lift it out? 12 How much then is a man better than a sheep? Wherefore it is lawful to do well on the sabbath days.
• Mark 2:27 And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath: 28 Therefore the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath. ... 3:2 And they watched him, whether he would heal him on the sabbath day; that they might accuse him. ... 4 And he saith unto them, Is it lawful to do good on the sabbath days, or to do evil? to save life, or to kill?
• Luke 6:5 And he said unto them, That the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath.

Sure sounds to me as if Jesus Himself believed He was The Messiah, doesn't it? But, then, He confirmed that clearly in this famous passage, too:
• Matt. 16:15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am? 16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. 17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

Christ is defined here:
• John 1:41 He first findeth his own brother Simon, and saith unto him, We have found the Messias, which is, being interpreted, the Christ.
• John 4:25 The woman saith unto him, I know that Messias cometh, which is called Christ: when he is come, he will tell us all things.

Then, of course, Jesus is called Christ over 500 times in the NT.

===============================

Another question on that topic:
What if Jesus knew He was leaving the area before sundown and would not be coming back to that place to be able to heal that man at some later time?

I have no doubt that the respective authors believed Jesus to be the messiah, and as far as they attibute those words to Jesus, that He believed He was the messiah. But by the prophesies in the OT, there was no way for the Jews to confirm he was indeed the messiah, which presents a rather large problem. It would have meant God would have been so inaccurate conveying the nature of The Messiah to the extent that the vast majority of the Jews would not recognize Him as such.

It could not have been God's intention to fool the Jews with prophesy. And it's beyond my belief that God would lie.

[NJConservative]

If God did not want the miracle performed He could have pervented it, the ability to take life is not the same as perform a miracle of healing anyone can murder but only those who are given the chance to be the vessel through which God acts can heal

Healing is not like performing surgery, the one healing shows that it is from God that the power comes, and teaching people about God does not violate the sabbath

Free will. God does not prevent sin. If someone choses to sin with any power God granted, it's still sin.

[DRS]

Free will. God does not prevent sin. If someone choses to sin with any power God granted, it's still sin.

When one sins God removes his spirit from them as seen with Saul but yet Jesus was able to keep healing after that incident
Healing others is not an ability only God's spirit can heal another

[Poisonshady313]

Nope just showing the adsurd lengths one has gone to.

There is nothing in the bible that says you can only help others in life and death situations on the sabbath

The concept of Sola Scriptura can be very very dangerous.

Example...

Yom Kippur... the Torah says to afflict yourself.

What does that mean?

How about circumcision on the 8th day. What about a premature baby? What about a particularly unhealthy baby... do you believe it's God's intent to kill off babies at their 8th day?

Again with the sabbath. Are you aware that the bible doesn't explicitly tell you what "work" is or how to abstain from it? Who gets to make the decision? You?

Do you know about the law that tells of stoning rebellious children... do you know that no child has ever been put to death according to that law? The due process... the very lengthly and complicated process one must go through to be subject to death as of that law makes it just about physically impossible for death to be imposed... if we had it your way, every kid who said "no" would die.

Deut 12:21, “If the place where the Lord has chosen to establish His name is too far from you, you may slaughter any of the cattle or sheep that the Lord gives you, as I have instructed you.”

How's that? Can you find it in the bible? How is one to fulfill this?

About healing on the sabbath... The Torah repeats that no work is to be done... isn't a doctor working if he's treating someone? Would it be better if the hospitals shut down completely for about 26 hours? Everyone on life support would die, anybody with a serious wound could very well bleed to death... heart attacks would go unanswered.

Do you really need the bible to tell you that life is important enough to be saved on the sabbath?

Numbers 15:34, “He was placed in custody, for it had not been specified what should be done to him.”

This was the man gathering wood on the sabbath. How could it not have been specified? Moses had already received the whole Torah on Sinai. What more could he want?

Exodus 12:2, “This month shall mark for you the beginning of the months; it shall be the first of the months of the year for you.”

Which month? The Written Torah doesn’t state the month; it expects you to know this from the Oral Torah. Nisan is the first month. This also demonstrates that the months were already known outside of the Written Torah as well.


Did you hear about Abraham's father Terah the idol maker? and the story of how Abraham smashed the idols in this father's shop to prove that none of them are God?

Did you know that's not in the bible?

If you were given the Torah and told to follow it literally, you'd be lost.

[Poisonshady313]

When one sins God removes his spirit from them as seen with Saul but yet Jesus was able to keep healing after that incident
Healing others is not an ability only God's spirit can heal another

David sinned, and God didn't remove his spirit from David.

[Poisonshady313]

Back from a wonderful week in California! Just caught up and it looks like you guys have been reasonably civil to each other. Good for you.

I thought I should remind everyone of what Jesus said about the Sabbath:

• Matt. 12:5 Or have ye not read in the law, how that on the sabbath days the priests in the temple profane the sabbath, and are blameless? ... 8 For the Son of man is Lord even of the sabbath day. ... 11 And he said unto them, What man shall there be among you, that shall have one sheep, and if it fall into a pit on the sabbath day, will he not lay hold on it, and lift it out? 12 How much then is a man better than a sheep? Wherefore it is lawful to do well on the sabbath days.
• Mark 2:27 And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath: 28 Therefore the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath. ... 3:2 And they watched him, whether he would heal him on the sabbath day; that they might accuse him. ... 4 And he saith unto them, Is it lawful to do good on the sabbath days, or to do evil? to save life, or to kill?
• Luke 6:5 And he said unto them, That the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath.

Sure sounds to me as if Jesus Himself believed He was The Messiah, doesn't it? But, then, He confirmed that clearly in this famous passage, too:
• Matt. 16:15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am? 16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. 17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

Christ is defined here:
• John 1:41 He first findeth his own brother Simon, and saith unto him, We have found the Messias, which is, being interpreted, the Christ.
• John 4:25 The woman saith unto him, I know that Messias cometh, which is called Christ: when he is come, he will tell us all things.

Then, of course, Jesus is called Christ over 500 times in the NT.

===============================

Another question on that topic:
What if Jesus knew He was leaving the area before sundown and would not be coming back to that place to be able to heal that man at some later time?

If he was the wonderful guy Christians said he was... he'd come back. Or maybe he'd stay the duration of the sabbath at the home of one of these people, do his thing, then go about his way.

[Tucson Jim]

Jesus had a prehuman existence in heaven, spirit creatures can be in the prescence of the Almighty

"Spirit creatures" - sounds like a bad sci-fi movie!

[Tucson Jim]

3 persons do not make one person


3 Persons one BEING!

[Tucson Jim]

I have noticed that everyone uses the Bible to support their positions. Quite well, I might add. Maybe we need further clarification, further light and knowledge, more words of God.

Where could we find "more words of God"?

[Tucson Jim]

Trinitarians do not believe that three persons make one person.

This is mischaracterization of the trinitarian belief.

Trinitarians believe that the ONE BEING that is God is made up of THREE PERSONS.

THANK YOU!

[Tucson Jim]

So you believe there are three Gods then?

Again what is the difference between that view and the Hindu trinity?

More facetiousness due to the lack of a cogent argument . . .:rolleyes:

[Tucson Jim]

Like the rest of mankind you will not mistaken the messiah when he returns at God's choosing

One can not tell others what to look for when one can not see themselves.


There are three basic views surrounding Jesus
Not the Messiah

Is the messiah

He is God

If he is number 3 then he is not choice number 2


IYHO

[Tucson Jim]

Looks like this thread has been seriously DERAILED!

The last 10 - 15 pages reads exactly like those "Was Jesus the Messiah" threads.

Interesting topic, but hardly Trinity. Wouldn't it make sense to take this discussion to a "Messiah" thread or start a new thread?

[37818]

What does Pslam 110:1 say"The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool."



Was Jesus man thenWhen David wrote the Psalm no. But Jesus in His day had asked some as Matthew wrote, "What think ye of Christ? whose son is he? They say unto him, The Son of David. He saith unto them, How then doth David in spirit call him Lord, saying, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool? If David then call him Lord, how is he his son?"

They didn't know the answer to answer Jesus. Do you know the answer?



When Jesus prayed I have made your name known whose name was itJesus no doubt made His Father's name know. Jesus taught, "I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive."


Not one of the scriptures you quote makes Proverbs any less about JesusIt wasn't just Proverbs but Proverbs 8:1-31, "Doth not wisdom cry? and understanding put forth her voice? She standeth in the top of high places, by the way in the places of the paths. She crieth at the gates, at the entry of the city, at the coming in at the doors. Unto you, O men, I call; and my voice is to the sons of man. O ye simple, understand wisdom: and, ye fools, be ye of an understanding heart. Hear; for I will speak of excellent things; and the opening of my lips shall be right things. For my mouth shall speak truth; and wickedness is an abomination to my lips. All the words of my mouth are in righteousness; there is nothing froward or perverse in them. They are all plain to him that understandeth, and right to them that find knowledge. Receive my instruction, and not silver; and knowledge rather than choice gold. For wisdom is better than rubies; and all the things that may be desired are not to be compared to it. I wisdom dwell with prudence, and find out knowledge of witty inventions. The fear of the LORD is to hate evil: pride, and arrogancy, and the evil way, and the froward mouth, do I hate. Counsel is mine, and sound wisdom: I am understanding; I have strength. By me kings reign, and princes decree justice. By me princes rule, and nobles, even all the judges of the earth. I love them that love me; and those that seek me early shall find me. Riches and honour are with me; yea, durable riches and righteousness. My fruit is better than gold, yea, than fine gold; and my revenue than choice silver. I lead in the way of righteousness, in the midst of the paths of judgment: That I may cause those that love me to inherit substance; and I will fill their treasures. The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old. I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was. When there were no depths, I was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water. Before the mountains were settled, before the hills was I brought forth: While as yet he had not made the earth, nor the fields, nor the highest part of the dust of the world. When he prepared the heavens, I was there: when he set a compass upon the face of the depth: When he established the clouds above: when he strengthened the fountains of the deep: When he gave to the sea his decree, that the waters should not pass his commandment: when he appointed the foundations of the earth: Then I was by him, as one brought up with him: and I was daily his delight, rejoicing always before him; Rejoicing in the habitable part of his earth; and my delights were with the sons of men."

Now "The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old." Refers to Jesus (Colossians 1:16, 17; Genesis 1:1; John 1:3, 14.)

[DRS]

"The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool."


When David wrote the Psalm no. But Jesus in His day had asked some as Matthew wrote, "What think ye of Christ? whose son is he? They say unto him, The Son of David. He saith unto them, How then doth David in spirit call him Lord, saying, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool? If David then call him Lord, how is he his son?"

They didn't know the answer to answer Jesus. Do you know the answer?

Actually it does not say LORD is the original, Jehovah says to my lord it is what is found there. Jesus the great prince whose rue is going to be princely had a prehuman existence and was known to the Jews





"Jesus no doubt made His Father's name know. Jesus taught, "I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive."

It wasn't just Proverbs but Proverbs 8:1-31, "Doth not wisdom cry? and understanding put forth her voice? She standeth in the top of high places, by the way in the places of the paths. She crieth at the gates, at the entry of the city, at the coming in at the doors. Unto you, O men, I call; and my voice is to the sons of man. O ye simple, understand wisdom: and, ye fools, be ye of an understanding heart. Hear; for I will speak of excellent things; and the opening of my lips shall be right things. For my mouth shall speak truth; and wickedness is an abomination to my lips. All the words of my mouth are in righteousness; there is nothing froward or perverse in them. They are all plain to him that understandeth, and right to them that find knowledge. Receive my instruction, and not silver; and knowledge rather than choice gold. For wisdom is better than rubies; and all the things that may be desired are not to be compared to it. I wisdom dwell with prudence, and find out knowledge of witty inventions. The fear of the LORD is to hate evil: pride, and arrogancy, and the evil way, and the froward mouth, do I hate. Counsel is mine, and sound wisdom: I am understanding; I have strength. By me kings reign, and princes decree justice. By me princes rule, and nobles, even all the judges of the earth. I love them that love me; and those that seek me early shall find me. Riches and honour are with me; yea, durable riches and righteousness. My fruit is better than gold, yea, than fine gold; and my revenue than choice silver. I lead in the way of righteousness, in the midst of the paths of judgment: That I may cause those that love me to inherit substance; and I will fill their treasures. The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old. I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was. When there were no depths, I was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water. Before the mountains were settled, before the hills was I brought forth: While as yet he had not made the earth, nor the fields, nor the highest part of the dust of the world. When he prepared the heavens, I was there: when he set a compass upon the face of the depth: When he established the clouds above: when he strengthened the fountains of the deep: When he gave to the sea his decree, that the waters should not pass his commandment: when he appointed the foundations of the earth: Then I was by him, as one brought up with him: and I was daily his delight, rejoicing always before him; Rejoicing in the habitable part of his earth; and my delights were with the sons of men."

Now "The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old." Refers to Jesus (Colossians 1:16, 17; Genesis 1:1; John 1:3, 14.)

The word used here in hebrew denotes acquires or creates, other translation show this too
The LORD brought me forth as the first of his works, [a] , [b]
before his deeds of old

now possesed though is also use to describe all God's creation

24O LORD, how (A)many are Your works!
In (B)wisdom You have made them all;
The (C)earth is full of Your [a]possessions.

[DRS]

More facetiousness due to the lack of a cogent argument . . .:rolleyes:

3 person 1 being just the same as the hindu trinity

[drmilo]

So you believe there are three Gods then?

Again what is the difference between that view and the Hindu trinity?

No. ONE GOD. The nature of that ONE GOD is triune -- meaning that three persons make up that ONE GOD.

[drmilo]

Like the rest of mankind you will not mistaken the messiah when he returns at God's choosing

One can not tell others what to look for when one can not see themselves.


There are three basic views surrounding Jesus
Not the Messiah

Is the messiah

He is God

If he is number 3 then he is not choice number 2

If you disrespect Jesus then you disrespect all those who prophesied about him

Now who's telling God how he can fulfill prophecies?

[DRS]

The concept of Sola Scriptura can be very very dangerous.



Arguing againt the scriptures alone guess Jews and Catholics have something in com

Example...

Yom Kippur... the Torah says to afflict yourself.

What does that mean?

How about circumcision on the 8th day. What about a premature baby? What about a particularly unhealthy baby... do you believe it's God's intent to kill off babies at their 8th day?

Again with the sabbath. Are you aware that the bible doesn't explicitly tell you what "work" is or how to abstain from it? Who gets to make the decision? You?

Do you know about the law that tells of stoning rebellious children... do you know that no child has ever been put to death according to that law? The due process... the very lengthly and complicated process one must go through to be subject to death as of that law makes it just about physically impossible for death to be imposed... if we had it your way, every kid who said "no" would die.

No actually it would not happen that way as there was a trial and the bible says it was for striking your parents

Deut 12:21, “If the place where the Lord has chosen to establish His name is too far from you, you may slaughter any of the cattle or sheep that the Lord gives you, as I have instructed you.”

How's that? Can you find it in the bible? How is one to fulfill this?

What are you asking here?

About healing on the sabbath... The Torah repeats that no work is to be done... isn't a doctor working if he's treating someone? Would it be better if the hospitals shut down completely for about 26 hours? Everyone on life support would die, anybody with a serious wound could very well bleed to death... heart attacks would go unanswered.

Do you really need the bible to tell you that life is important enough to be saved on the sabbath?

The sabbath was meant to be a blessing not the burden the jews have turned into, your the ones complaining about the healing even though that healing meant rest for the afflicted

Numbers 15:34, “He was placed in custody, for it had not been specified what should be done to him.”

This was the man gathering wood on the sabbath. How could it not have been specified? Moses had already received the whole Torah on Sinai. What more could he want?

The trial as others had you just did not kill people

10*Now a son of an Israelite woman, who, however, was the son of an Egyptian man, went out into the midst of the sons of Israel, and the son of the Israelitess and an Israelite man began to struggle with each other in the camp. 11*And the son of the Israelite woman began to abuse the Name and to call down evil upon it. So they brought him to Moses. Incidentally, his mother’s name was She‧lo′mith, the daughter of Dib′ri of the tribe of Dan. 12*Then they committed him into custody till there should be a distinct declaration to them according to the saying of Jehovah

Exodus 12:2, “This month shall mark for you the beginning of the months; it shall be the first of the months of the year for you.”

Which month? The Written Torah doesn’t state the month; it expects you to know this from the Oral Torah. Nisan is the first month. This also demonstrates that the months were already known outside of the Written Torah as well.

Unless you read Esther

7*In the first month, that is, the month Ni′san, in the twelfth year of King A‧has‧u‧e′rus, someone cast Pur, that is, the Lot, before Ha′man from day to day and from month to month, [to] the twelfth, that is, the month A′da

or as it was known before the exile in Babylon

4*Today YOU are going out in the month of A′bib

Did you hear about Abraham's father Terah the idol maker? and the story of how Abraham smashed the idols in this father's shop to prove that none of them are God?

Did you know that's not in the bible?

If you were given the Torah and told to follow it literally, you'd be lost.
Yes Terah being an idol worshipper is found in Joshua

Actually i have shown the bible provides one with completeness in understanding, it is when one deviates from God they need to make extra writings and call them holy

[DRS]

Now who's telling God how he can fulfill prophecies?

what to show where what I have said contradicts the scriptures

[DRS]

No. ONE GOD. The nature of that ONE GOD is triune -- meaning that three persons make up that ONE GOD.

the bible says there is One God, and person alone who is Most High

Show me where it says there are 3 person who make up God

[Angryamerican]

Looks like this thread has been seriously DERAILED!

The last 10 - 15 pages reads exactly like those "Was Jesus the Messiah" threads.

Interesting topic, but hardly Trinity. Wouldn't it make sense to take this discussion to a "Messiah" thread or start a new thread?

If Jesus is not the messiah then that means he also can't be your God and there is no trinity.

[Angryamerican]

Arguing againt the scriptures alone guess Jews and Catholics have something in com



No actually it would not happen that way as there was a trial and the bible says it was for striking your parents



What are you asking here?




Yes Terah being an idol worshipper is found in Joshua

Actually i have shown the bible provides one with completeness in understanding, it is when one deviates from God they need to make extra writings and call them holy

Are the Jews the chosen people of God or not ?

[DRS]

Are the Jews the chosen people of God or not ?

The people who were Jewish and chose to listen to the one sent by him (Jesus) are blessed, but there is no race or national group that can claim they are God's chosen people. God is not partial rich or poor no matter where you are from if you are seeking to do His will you are his servants

[Poisonshady313]

Unless you read Esther

7*In the first month, that is, the month Ni′san, in the twelfth year of King A‧has‧u‧e′rus, someone cast Pur, that is, the Lot, before Ha′man from day to day and from month to month, [to] the twelfth, that is, the month A′da


So tell me this... how did anyone know what month it was before Esther?

You left a lot of my questions unanswered...

Know and understand that there are a great many things that the Torah says are to be done that it simply does not explain how to do it.

[Poisonshady313]

If Jesus is not the messiah then that means he also can't be your God and there is no trinity.

one has nothing to do with the other. The Messiah won't be God.

[Poisonshady313]

Deuteronmy 6

6. And these words, which I command you this day, shall be upon your heart.
7. And you shall teach them to your sons and speak of them when you sit in your house, and when you walk on the way, and when you lie down and when you rise up.
8. And you shall bind them for a sign upon your hand, and they shall be for ornaments between your eyes.
9. And you shall inscribe them upon the doorposts of your house and upon your gates.


Lets say you were a Jew and had to follow these commandment. How would you do it?

[Angryamerican]

one has nothing to do with the other. The Messiah won't be God.

Agreed i was talking from his perspective.

[DRS]

So tell me this... how did anyone know what month it was before Esther?

You left a lot of my questions unanswered...

Know and understand that there are a great many things that the Torah says are to be done that it simply does not explain how to do it.

I asked what you meant by at least one

Seconsly I showed a scripture from Exodus the one showing Nisan as it was formally known Abib

[DRS]

Deuteronmy 6

6. And these words, which I command you this day, shall be upon your heart.
7. And you shall teach them to your sons and speak of them when you sit in your house, and when you walk on the way, and when you lie down and when you rise up.
8. And you shall bind them for a sign upon your hand, and they shall be for ornaments between your eyes.
9. And you shall inscribe them upon the doorposts of your house and upon your gates.


Lets say you were a Jew and had to follow these commandment. How would you do it?

i would be very careful to keep the law with a view to all i do and work i do, the same i would let the fact that God gave this same instruction regarding the tbringing out of Israel, so i would make sure to never forget it.

i would have taken every chance to teach my children also

[Poisonshady313]

i would be very careful to keep the law with a view to all i do and work i do, the same i would let the fact that God gave this same instruction regarding the tbringing out of Israel, so i would make sure to never forget it.

i would have taken every chance to teach my children also

When I asked "how", I wasn't looking for the answer "carefully". I was asking what would be done.

And these words, which I command you today, shall be upon your heart. How many words were commanded on that day?

How would you go about binding them for a sign upon your hand?

How would you inscribe them upon the doorposts of your house and upon your gate?

[DRS]

In the same manner as i would bind these words that carry that same command

13 And Jehovah spoke further to Moses, saying: 2*“Sanctify to me every male firstborn that opens each womb among the sons of Israel, among men and beasts. It is mine.”

3*And Moses went on to say to the people: “Let there be a remembering of this day on which YOU went out of Egypt, from the house of slaves, because by strength of hand Jehovah brought YOU out from here. So nothing leavened may be eaten. 4*Today YOU are going out in the month of A′bib. 5*And it must occur that when Jehovah will have brought you into the land of the Ca′naan‧ites and the Hit′tites and the Am′or‧ites and the Hi′vites and the Jeb′u‧sites, which he swore to your forefathers to give you, a land flowing with milk and honey, then you must render this service in this month. 6*Seven days you are to eat unfermented cakes, and on the seventh day is a festival to Jehovah. 7*Unfermented cakes are to be eaten for the seven days; and nothing leavened is to be seen with you, and no sourdough is to be seen with you within all your boundaries. 8*And you must tell your son on that day, saying, ‘It is because of that which Jehovah has done to me when I came out of Egypt.’ 9*And it must serve for you as a sign upon your hand and as a memorial between your eyes, in order that Jehovah’s law may prove to be in your mouth; because by a strong hand Jehovah brought you out of Egypt. 10*And you must keep this statute at its appointed time from year to year.

11*“And it must occur that when Jehovah brings you into the land of the Ca′naan‧ites, just as he has sworn to you and to your forefathers, and when he does give it to you, 12*then you must devote everyone that opens the womb to Jehovah, and every firstling, the young of a beast, which will come to be yours. The males belong to Jehovah. 13*And every firstling ass you are to redeem with a sheep, and if you will not redeem it, then you must break its neck. And every firstborn of man among your sons you are to redeem.

14*“And it must occur that in case your son should inquire of you later on, saying, ‘What does this mean?’ then you must say to him, ‘By strength of hand Jehovah brought us out of Egypt, from the house of slaves. 15*And it came about that Phar′aoh showed obstinacy toward sending us away, and Jehovah proceeded to kill every firstborn in the land of Egypt, from the firstborn of man to the firstborn of beast. That is why I am sacrificing to Jehovah all the males that open the womb, and every firstborn of my sons I redeem.’ 16*And it must serve as a sign upon your hand and as a frontlet band between your eyes, because by strength of hand Jehovah brought us out of Egypt.

[Poisonshady313]

In the same manner as i would bind these words that carry that same command

snip

16*And it must serve as a sign upon your hand and as a frontlet band between your eyes, because by strength of hand Jehovah brought us out of Egypt.

So what exactly would be on or in your hand? What is a frontlet band? Would you wear these things all the time? even while you sleep or take a shower?

[Poisonshady313]

Your answer to me so far is a non-answer.

It's as if I asked you how to get from your house to your local high school.... and your answer to me is "the same way I get from the house to the mall... carefully."

[Fire Watch]

I have noticed that everyone uses the Bible to support their positions. Quite well, I might add. Maybe we need further clarification, further light and knowledge, more words of God.
You're right. I guess we could consult the Prophet Warren Jeffs.

[Reeder]

You're right. I guess we could consult the Prophet Warren Jeffs.

Be my guest kemosabe. ;)

[DRS]

So what exactly would be on or in your hand? What is a frontlet band? Would you wear these things all the time? even while you sleep or take a shower?

I would say if you take this to mean literally wear it then you are wearing quite a bit since you are to wear something to commerate the freeing from Egypt and the laws

Do you wear both or do you pick and choose what to wear and what not to wear like you do you messianic prophesis. Which ones have fulfilled and which ones don't.

[Tucson Jim]

If Jesus is not the messiah then that means he also can't be your God and there is no trinity.

Two separate topics entirely. That's why there were separate "Messiah" threads.

The thread is derailed.

[Tucson Jim]

Agreed i was talking from his perspective.

One has nothing to do with the other from my perspective either.

[Tucson Jim]

I would say if you take this to mean literally wear it then you are wearing quite a bit since you are to wear something to commerate the freeing from Egypt and the laws

Do you wear both or do you pick and choose what to wear and what not to wear like you do you messianic prophesis. Which ones have fulfilled and which ones don't.

What does any of this have to do with the Trinity?

[Angryamerican]

You're right. I guess we could consult the Prophet Warren Jeffs.

Some Christians do .

[Angryamerican]

Two separate topics entirely. That's why there were separate "Messiah" threads.

The thread is derailed.

That usually happens when the truth comes out.:D

[Angryamerican]

One has nothing to do with the other from my perspective either.

So if Jesus is not God or the messiah there still is a trinity ? :confused:

[Koushi Shinigami]

Well, even though I'm late to this shin-dig, I'll take a shot at it.

Should You Believe in the Trinity?




If the trinity is in the dogma of the religion you follow. YES.

If the trinity is not in the dogma of the religion you follow. NO.



Simple enough?

[Poisonshady313]

I would say if you take this to mean literally wear it then you are wearing quite a bit since you are to wear something to commerate the freeing from Egypt and the laws

Do you wear both or do you pick and choose what to wear and what not to wear like you do you messianic prophesis. Which ones have fulfilled and which ones don't.

This isn't about me. I'm asking what you would do living according to a direct, strict literal interpretation of only the written law, completely forsaking the wisdom and understanding and instruction given to Moses at Mt. Sinai.

Your inability to give me an answer proves my point.

sorry about the thread, jim.

I guess Koushi Shinigami summed it up well enough.

[Jewell]

Well, even though I'm late to this shin-dig, I'll take a shot at it.




If the trinity is in the dogma of the religion you follow. YES.

If the trinity is not in the dogma of the religion you follow. NO.



Simple enough?

So. Its, you take the high road and I'll take the low road and we all make it ? Where does Gods word say this? I know plenty of MANS word say this.

[Koushi Shinigami]

So. Its, you take the high road and I'll take the low road and we all make it ? Where does Gods word say this? I know plenty of MANS word say this.

Go ask the leader of the congregation you subsribe to to show you what God says about it.

[DispensationalJim]

Go ask the leader of the congregation you subsribe to to show you what God says about it.

My authority is THE WORD OF GOD - PERIOD.

I am one of seven elders (or pastors or bishops) at my local church, one of which is "fulltime." He does most of the "ministry of the Word," but the rest of us take our turns when needed (since he is asked to speak at various Bible Conferences, etc., throughout the year).

Often in our "messages," we will say:
"Please do not take my word for it. Check it out in the Bible for yourself."

What we are saying there is, if what we preach does not match up to the Word of God (rightly divided, of course - 2Tim. 2:15), then disregard it or come and show us why you disagree.

================================

In other words, we refuse to join in the old song (slightly revised):

"Where he leads me I will follow,
What he feeds me I will swallow."

[drmilo]

Yes, I mean him healing that which should have waited until the Sabbath was over. Unless of course you think God was kidding when he told his people to remember the sabbath and keep it holy.

Can't have it both ways.

I fail to see how healing the suffering of a fellow human being is not keeping a day holy.

[drmilo]

It's God's law, not man's. If you believe God is cruel, I guess you're entitled to your opinion.


Read about the construction of the tabernacle.

The talmud gives a simple, easy to read list... but they are taken from the chapters in the Torah that talk about the construction of the tabernacle.

1. Sowing

2. Plowing

3. Reaping

4. Binding Sheaves

5. Threshing

6. Winnowing

7. Selecting

8. Grinding

9. Sifting

10. Kneading

11. Baking

12. Shearing

13. Bleaching

14. Hackling

15. Dyeing

16. Spinning

17. Stretching the threads

18. The making of two meshes

19. Weaving two threads

20. Dividing two threads

21. Tying a knot

22. Untying a knot

23. Sewing two stitches

24. Tearing in order to sew two stitches

25. Capturing (an animal)

26. Slaughtering

27. Flaying

28. Salting

29. Curing hide

30. Scraping

31. Cutting

32. Writing two letters

33. Erasing in order to write two letters

34. Building

35. Demolishing

36. Extinguishing fire

37. Kindling fire

38. Striking with a hammer (i.e. giving something its final touch)

39. Carrying (in a public domain, or from a private domain to a public domain, and vice versa).

I don't see healing nor performing miracles on this list...

[Poisonshady313]

I don't see healing nor performing miracles on this list...

The incident of the blind man in John 9 dealt with carrying in a public domain.

And also in John 5, carrying the bed in a public domain...

[drmilo]

what to show where what I have said contradicts the scriptures

Not contradicting scriptures -- just telling God that he can only fulfill prophecy by how you understand it:

There are three basic views surrounding Jesus
Not the Messiah

Is the messiah

He is God

If he is number 3 then he is not choice number 2

Why can't the Messiah be God incarnate? The Jews might have been looking for merely a man, but they, IMHO, were wrong in doing so. They might have been looking for a human king, but they, IMHO, were wrong in doing so. Jesus was God, and his kingdom is that of heaven. ("My kingdom is not of this world.") The Jews might be looking for the Messiah to unite all the Jews into one place, but, IMHO, that unification is a spiritual one, where all who follow the Messiah are saved from the original sin, and unified to God, not to Israel.

So, how is it that the Messiah can't be God incarnate? This is only YHO, based on your understanding of scripture, and your understanding might be a misunderstanding as well.

[Angryamerican]

Not contradicting scriptures -- just telling God that he can only fulfill prophecy by how you understand it:



Why can't the Messiah be God incarnate? The Jews might have been looking for merely a man, but they, IMHO, were wrong in doing so. They might have been looking for a human king, but they, IMHO, were wrong in doing so. Jesus was God, and his kingdom is that of heaven. ("My kingdom is not of this world.") The Jews might be looking for the Messiah to unite all the Jews into one place, but, IMHO, that unification is a spiritual one, where all who follow the Messiah are saved from the original sin, and unified to God, not to Israel.

So, how is it that the Messiah can't be God incarnate? This is only YHO, based on your understanding of scripture, and your understanding might be a misunderstanding as well.

I think if Jesus, would have been God, i'm pretty sure God would have fulfilled all his prophecies about himself. and would not have needed a 2nd visit.

[Tucson Jim]

That usually happens when the truth comes out.:D

Eh?

[Tucson Jim]

So if Jesus is not God or the messiah there still is a trinity ? :confused:

The discussion has barely tangential bearing on the Trinity, and would more appropriately be discussed in another thread - as it has been until now.

[Tucson Jim]

This isn't about me. I'm asking what you would do living according to a direct, strict literal interpretation of only the written law, completely forsaking the wisdom and understanding and instruction given to Moses at Mt. Sinai.

Your inability to give me an answer proves my point.

sorry about the thread, jim.

I guess Koushi Shinigami summed it up well enough.

:wall:

[Tucson Jim]

So. Its, you take the high road and I'll take the low road and we all make it ? Where does Gods word say this?

I think it's Rev 23 . . . :whistle:

[Tucson Jim]

My authority is THE WORD OF GOD - PERIOD.

I am one of seven elders (or pastors or bishops) at my local church, one of which is "fulltime." He does most of the "ministry of the Word," but the rest of us take our turns when needed (since he is asked to speak at various Bible Conferences, etc., throughout the year).

Often in our "messages," we will say:
"Please do not take my word for it. Check it out in the Bible for yourself."

What we are saying there is, if what we preach does not match up to the Word of God (rightly divided, of course - 2Tim. 2:15), then disregard it or come and show us why you disagree.

================================

In other words, we refuse to join in the old song (slightly revised):

"Where he leads me I will follow,
What he feeds me I will swallow."

:clap:

[Tucson Jim]

I think if Jesus, would have been God, i'm pretty sure God would have fulfilled all his prophecies about himself. and would not have needed a 2nd visit.

Unless, of course, it was part of His plan to have a second visit . . .

[37818]

Actually it does not say LORD is the original, Jehovah says to my lord it is what is found there. Jesus the great prince whose rue is going to be princely had a prehuman existence and was known to the Jews.

The use of all caps LORD is the designation for God's name in the translation. Jehovah is one form of tranliteration of God's name and not a translation. God's name in English is "Existence." But has been translated "Eternal One" or "the existent One."

Now the Apostle Paul wrote this regarding Psalm 110:1, "Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all." -- 1 Corinthians 15:24-28.

Now the prophecy of the Psalm and what the Apostle wrote here has to do with Christ's humanity as Lord.

What you do not seem to understand is, unless you go through this man Jesus you can't get to Jehovah at all (John 14:6.) So unless you appoach the Son as the Father you have no access to the Father at all. (John 5:23.)

Thomas seeing the risen Christ acknowledged that Christ was both Lord (the man) and God (Jehovah.) "And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God." -- John 20:28.


The word used here in hebrew denotes acquires or creates, other translation show this too
The LORD brought me forth as the first of his works, [a] , [b]
before his deeds of old

now possesed though is also use to describe all God's creation

24O LORD, how (A)many are Your works!
In (B)wisdom You have made them all;
The (C)earth is full of Your [a]possessions.

And it says of Christ who is the LORD(Jehovah), "For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence." -- Colossians 1:16-18.

[Angryamerican]

Unless, of course, it was part of His plan to have a second visit . . .

Well when God was giving out prophecy pertaining to the messiah, i wonder why he didn't tell us it would take two visits to accomplish .

[Koushi Shinigami]

My authority is THE WORD OF GOD - PERIOD.


Great. Consult that then.


See how easy this is.






I am one of ......

:boohoo:


I really don't remember asking for your resume, or indicating that I'd care about it if you posted it.

[DRS]

Well when God was giving out prophecy pertaining to the messiah, i wonder why he didn't tell us it would take two visits to accomplish .

You mean besides the scripture where it shows him coming once on a an ass and the other time in the clouds

What did you respond it was a parable while PS said it was either or

You were shown if that is what you really wanted then you recived your answer

[DRS]

The use of all caps LORD is the designation for God's name in the translation. Jehovah is one form of tranliteration of God's name and not a translation. God's name in English is "Existence." But has been translated "Eternal One" or "the existent One."

Now the Apostle Paul wrote this regarding Psalm 110:1, "Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all." -- 1 Corinthians 15:24-28.

Now the prophecy of the Psalm and what the Apostle wrote here has to do with Christ's humanity as Lord.

What you do not seem to understand is, unless you go through this man Jesus you can't get to Jehovah at all (John 14:6.) So unless you appoach the Son as the Father you have no access to the Father at all. (John 5:23.)

Thomas seeing the risen Christ acknowledged that Christ was both Lord (the man) and God (Jehovah.) "And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God." -- John 20:28.



And it says of Christ who is the LORD(Jehovah), "For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence." -- Colossians 1:16-18.

What Paul wrote es future the last enemy death has not been defeated yet
Moses was made god to Aaron and Pharoah and so Jesus was made god to other just as prophecied but that does not make him Almighty because it was not his authority now was it his will

[Reeder]

I think if Jesus, would have been God, i'm pretty sure God would have fulfilled all his prophecies about himself. and would not have needed a 2nd visit.

It has nothing to do with God "needing" a Second Coming......that's how its GOING to happen.

Its not like God said "Oops, I forgot a few things. I'd better head back to earth and fulfill the remaining prophesies."

[Poisonshady313]

Its not like God said "Oops, I forgot a few things. I'd better head back to earth and fulfill the remaining prophesies."

As far as Christianity is concerned, that's EXACTLY what it sounds like.

If I'm wrong, show me the old testament prophecies that necessitate two comings.

[DRS]

Not contradicting scriptures -- just telling God that he can only fulfill prophecy by how you understand it:



Why can't the Messiah be God incarnate? The Jews might have been looking for merely a man, but they, IMHO, were wrong in doing so. They might have been looking for a human king, but they, IMHO, were wrong in doing so. Jesus was God, and his kingdom is that of heaven. ("My kingdom is not of this world.") The Jews might be looking for the Messiah to unite all the Jews into one place, but, IMHO, that unification is a spiritual one, where all who follow the Messiah are saved from the original sin, and unified to God, not to Israel.

So, how is it that the Messiah can't be God incarnate? This is only YHO, based on your understanding of scripture, and your understanding might be a misunderstanding as well.


The anointed is such by God, serves God was to be high priest to God, he was to be a prophet like Moses, everything that prefigured Jesus was always something or someone in service to the Almighty

And just as the copper serpent prefigured what Jesus was to do and be lifted up, it also end prefiguring the idolatry that would surround Jesus. The Jews took that serpent and made it an object of worship and this was wrong