Should You Believe In The Trinity?

[Warrior4God]

The Trinity does not claim that God and Jesus are the same person. They are separate persons. They are one in being.

Is Jesus God?
yes or no

They are one in purpose this I see,BUT,you can't have a God and then be the God that is your God.
Thats in a word rediculous.

[Semi-Sweet]

That is such an eisigesical mess I dont even know where to start. Talk about spinning something to fit a doctrine!

There is one throne in heaven and One who sits upon it. This One is God because the twenty-four elders around the throne address Him as "Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come". From the CONTEXT of Rev. chapters 1 and 4, there can be no doubt that the One on the throne is Jesus Christ.

The Book of Revelation tells us that when we get to heaven we will see Jesus alone on the throne. Jesus is the only visible manifestation of God we will ever see.

When you put the complete message of the entire bible together, you don't need to use spin. When you only pick a few scriptures out and don't harmonize all the scriptures, then you have a mess.

The Patmos passage of Rev. 3:21 records the statement of Christ himself that he now occupies his own throne. "To him that overcometh, will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame and sat down with my Father in his throne."

Edited to add: Those that overcome will also sit on Christ's throne. . . Will we be God also?

If you can make God and Christ 'one God' more power to you.

[Fire Watch]

I count 2 here sitting and scripture shows that the lamb sits on Gods right hand.
So a spirit has a hand now huh? Stephen, said that he "looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God and Jesus standing on the right hand of God, And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God" (Acts 7:55-56). Did he see Jesus standing on a big hand belonging to God? W4G, It would be hard for me to believe that Stephen actually saw a large right hand belonging to God and Jesus standing on it. The "right hand of God" is not indicative of a locale or physical reality. This is an anthropomorphic expression speaking of exaltation, power, prestige, honor, strength ect... Anthropomorphisms are figures of speech, speaking of God in human terminology to help us understand about his His infinity that we couldnt express and understand with human minds.

David said, "I have set the Lord always before me: because he is at my right hand, I shall not be moved." Was the Lord actually at David's right hand? If David would have turned around, would God have moved to his other side, or would He have then been at David's left hand?

If we are going to view the right hand of God as a physical hand, then we gotta change our entire view of God to fit the rest of the Biblical descriptions of Him into our picture too. God must have large feet that He rests on the earth (The heaven is my throne, and the earth is my footstool--Isaiah 66:1),too many eyes to count (The eyes of the Lord are in every place--Proverbs 15:3), a big nose (with the blast of God's nostrils the waters of the Red Sea were parted--Exodus 15:8), and feathers on His wings (He shall cover thee with his feathers, and under his wings shalt thou trust--Psalm 91:4). If these types of descriptions were real, then truly Jesus would have pulled a large finger from out of heaven with which He used to cast out devils (Luke 11:20). This is absurd W4G.

[Fire Watch]

When you put the complete message of the entire bible together, you don't need to use spin. When you only pick a few scriptures out and don't harmonize all the scriptures, then you have a mess.

The Patmos passage of Rev. 3:21 records the statement of Christ himself that he now occupies his own throne. "To him that overcometh, will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame and sat down with my Father in his throne."

Edited to add: Those that overcome will also sit on Christ's throne. . . Will we be God also?

If you can make God and Christ 'one God' more power to you.I dont have to make God and Christ one God. He simply is. There is no other God, no other personages, no trinity involved.

[Tucson Jim]

You can NOT have a God and be God,thats 2 Gods.
1+1=I would not go there.

Your argument is with scripture, not us.

[Tucson Jim]

This dual nature is not used in scripture just like incarnation or trinity and people hang their beliefs on words that are not scriptural.

"Space shuttle" is not scriptural either but I believe in it.

Scripture says Jesus is God.
Scripture also says Jesus is man.
Therefore . . . we believe he is both God and man.

You can't get more scriptural than that!

[Tucson Jim]

The Trinity does not claim that God and Jesus are the same person. They are separate persons. They are one in being.

For the, what, 500th time? :wall:

[Tucson Jim]

Is Jesus God?
yes or no

Absitively, posilutely!!

They are one in purpose this I see,

Good, good, that's a start . . .

BUT,you can't have a God and then be the God that is your God.

Shuzbut!! Just when you were doing so well, then you go back to putting your understanding and logic above scripture, which says the Father is God and Jesus is God.

Thats in a word rediculous.

Is "rediculous" a word?? :)

[Tucson Jim]

So a spirit has a hand now huh? Stephen, said that he "looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God and Jesus standing on the right hand of God, And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God" (Acts 7:55-56). Did he see Jesus standing on a big hand belonging to God? W4G, It would be hard for me to believe that Stephen actually saw a large right hand belonging to God and Jesus standing on it. The "right hand of God" is not indicative of a locale or physical reality. This is an anthropomorphic expression speaking of exaltation, power, prestige, honor, strength ect... Anthropomorphisms are figures of speech, speaking of God in human terminology to help us understand about his His infinity that we couldnt express and understand with human minds.

David said, "I have set the Lord always before me: because he is at my right hand, I shall not be moved." Was the Lord actually at David's right hand? If David would have turned around, would God have moved to his other side, or would He have then been at David's left hand?

If we are going to view the right hand of God as a physical hand, then we gotta change our entire view of God to fit the rest of the Biblical descriptions of Him into our picture too. God must have large feet that He rests on the earth (The heaven is my throne, and the earth is my footstool--Isaiah 66:1),too many eyes to count (The eyes of the Lord are in every place--Proverbs 15:3), a big nose (with the blast of God's nostrils the waters of the Red Sea were parted--Exodus 15:8), and feathers on His wings (He shall cover thee with his feathers, and under his wings shalt thou trust--Psalm 91:4). If these types of descriptions were real, then truly Jesus would have pulled a large finger from out of heaven with which He used to cast out devils (Luke 11:20). This is absurd W4G.

Too funny Rick!! You had me on the floor laughing. Priceless!

[Tucson Jim]

If you can make God and Christ 'one God' more power to you.

Scripture does a good job of that with no help from us.

[ralittlefield]

Is Jesus God?
yes or no

They are one in purpose this I see,BUT,you can't have a God and then be the God that is your God.
Thats in a word rediculous.

That's true. I can't. Neither can you. I hope, though, that you do not presume to speak for God.

[DRS]

So a spirit has a hand now huh? Stephen, said that he "looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God and Jesus standing on the right hand of God, And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God" (Acts 7:55-56). Did he see Jesus standing on a big hand belonging to God? W4G, It would be hard for me to believe that Stephen actually saw a large right hand belonging to God and Jesus standing on it. The "right hand of God" is not indicative of a locale or physical reality. This is an anthropomorphic expression speaking of exaltation, power, prestige, honor, strength ect... Anthropomorphisms are figures of speech, speaking of God in human terminology to help us understand about his His infinity that we couldnt express and understand with human minds.

David said, "I have set the Lord always before me: because he is at my right hand, I shall not be moved." Was the Lord actually at David's right hand? If David would have turned around, would God have moved to his other side, or would He have then been at David's left hand?

If we are going to view the right hand of God as a physical hand, then we gotta change our entire view of God to fit the rest of the Biblical descriptions of Him into our picture too. God must have large feet that He rests on the earth (The heaven is my throne, and the earth is my footstool--Isaiah 66:1),too many eyes to count (The eyes of the Lord are in every place--Proverbs 15:3), a big nose (with the blast of God's nostrils the waters of the Red Sea were parted--Exodus 15:8), and feathers on His wings (He shall cover thee with his feathers, and under his wings shalt thou trust--Psalm 91:4). If these types of descriptions were real, then truly Jesus would have pulled a large finger from out of heaven with which He used to cast out devils (Luke 11:20). This is absurd W4G.

He is still at an exulted position in relation to God, showing God's blessing of him.

[DRS]

He gets that translation from the literal word for word translation from the greek which is:

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with the God, and God was the Word"

Unfortunately, DRS does not seem to understand (or refuses to understand) that you can't do a literal word for word translation from one language to another (in most cases, and definitely when translating to the English language.) He doesn't seem to realize that you have to take into account proper usage of the language you are translating to. He doesn't realize that other languages use definite articles for various reasons (like showing the gender of the noun, for example) when English has a tendency to drop the definite article unless absolutely necessary. Therefore, DRS doesn't see that "the Word was with the God" is not a proper English translation. "The Word was with God" is proper. In English, there is no definite article needed preceeding God in that context. He doesn't understand that "God was the Word" is properly translated to English as "The Word was God" because the subject has the definte article in English while the object doesn't and the subject in English more properly precedes the object.

His NWT translation says "... and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god." He says you add the "a" before God in the third clause because you dropped the definite article. This is faulty reasoning. You drop the definite article because a definite article is not required before the object of the clause; you do not add an "a" to a completely separate clause because you drop a definite article in a previous clause. The "a" was added only for the JW's to claim that Jesus is "a god" but not "the God."

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God" is the proper translation -- the subject of the sentence in all three clauses is the Word. (and thus the word "Word" has a definite article in each instance. "God" is the object of the sentence in the second and third clauses, thus a definite article is not needed and the order of subject and object is changed in the third clause to conform with proper English grammar.

It is only proper if you are trying to prop up the idea that Jesus is god otherwise if you translate it properly or word for word. See the God is also used in the OT to denote jehovah is passages like Job 1:6

[DRS]

Or, more accurately, your understanding of the Bible falls to pieces. Jesus is God, the Bible demonstrates that over and over.

REally then using the Ot show me that Jesus is Almighty God.

No need for "spin". Jesus is fully God and fully man, as the scriptures teach. The man Jesus is our mediator. But He still has the nature of God also.


Show me the scripture that says Jesus was a god/man.

That idea comes from a greek word not the bible.

[drmilo]

Rev 22:3 And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him:
I count 2 here sitting and scripture shows that the lamb sits on Gods right hand.

Warrior, you are fond of pointing out what you see are figures of speech (I seem to remember one very long post about how a figure of speech was used and you used it to show that what everyone said a verse meant actually meant something else.)

You do realize, then, that when the Bible makes a reference to Christ sitting at the right hand of God, it is a figure of speech. "Right hand" is a figure of speech that denotes power, authority, and prestige. It is not to be taken literally that Christ is actually sitting upon God's right hand.

[drmilo]

Is Jesus God?
yes or no

They are one in purpose this I see,BUT,you can't have a God and then be the God that is your God.
Thats in a word rediculous.

Jesus is God.
The Holy Spirit is God
The Father is God.

Three persons. One God.

If a writer places himself into his own story, is not the writer above his persona in the story? Is not the writer the "god" of his persona in the story? Does not the persona act according to the writer's will, but also, within the confines of the story, of his own? Cannot the persona refer to the writer as his "father" while still being the writer at the same time? The persona, unlike the rest of the characters in the story is not created, for he already exists in the writer, but is placed in the story. Now, lets say the story is about animals. And the persona of the writer is placed into a pig. The pig is the writer. But the writer is not a pig. The pig is the writer, but is also separate from the writer. As a pig, it must act like a pig. It is fully a pig. But it is also fully the writer.

Of course, the creation of humans is limited by the power of humans. We cannot write something that is real (no matter how good a writer we are) and thus, there is no true free will given to the characters of a fictional story written by a human being.

But God creates reality, not fiction, not nonfiction, but reality. And in that reality, he gave his creations free will. He then placed himself (placed his persona) in the story. But since God creates reality, he did not place a persona, for that would be fictional, he placed a person, who is Jesus Christ. This person placed is God, but is also a separate person from God, a man. Fully man. And fully God.

This is impossible for us to do outside the realm of fiction. But nothing is impossible for God. What you see as ridiculous and impossible, God sees in entirely different terms.

[drmilo]

"Space shuttle" is not scriptural either but I believe in it.

Scripture says Jesus is God.
Scripture also says Jesus is man.
Therefore . . . we believe he is both God and man.

You can't get more scriptural than that!

More to the point: If we are to say that anything that is not in scripture is not scriptural, then how about this one: the word Bible is not is the Bible. Therefore, it must be wrong to call the Bible the Bible.

And now ... back to "Heroes" on DVD....

[Warrior4God]

Warrior, you are fond of pointing out what you see are figures of speech (I seem to remember one very long post about how a figure of speech was used and you used it to show that what everyone said a verse meant actually meant something else.)

You do realize, then, that when the Bible makes a reference to Christ sitting at the right hand of God, it is a figure of speech. "Right hand" is a figure of speech that denotes power, authority, and prestige. It is not to be taken literally that Christ is actually sitting upon God's right hand.

The figure of speech condescencio IS the figure of speech used in a verse that shows God who is Spirit given human attributes like God having hands.
A figure is used to give emphasis.
having said that a verse showing Jesus sitting on Gods right hand shows the distiction between the two in person but yet one in purpose and that is why God GAVE him authority.
I would reccomend you read E.W. Bullingers book on figures of speech.

[Semi-Sweet]

I dont have to make God and Christ one God. He simply is. There is no other God, no other personages, no trinity involved.

So God devised a plan to reconcile fallen man back to Him. It was His law that man broke and His plan to forgive man. So here is what He did;

God Himself came down and sacrificed Himself and bled and died and redeemed man back to Himself for breaking His law. Meanwhile praying to Himself, for Himself that His own will would be done.

If this were the case why didn't He just simply forgive man his trespasses against Him and be done with it. It was certainly within His power as God to do so. Just give the good guys eternal life and waive the death sentence.

[drmilo]

If this were the case why didn't He just simply forgive man his trespasses against Him and be done with it. It was certainly within His power as God to do so. Just give the good guys eternal life and waive the death sentence.

This question can be asked of all the scenarios we have been debating...

Why go to the trouble of devising a plan where a perfect man is born, obediant, and dies for the sins of the world to be forgiven? Just wipe the slate clean and, as you say, give the good guys eternal life and wiave the death sentence....

He sent a Messiah -- whether it was just a man, or God made flesh -- for a reason. If it was only to purchase the forgiveness of sins with his own blood, then He could have just forgone the entire thing and forgave all sins and told everyone that the slate's been wiped clean.

Is that the only reason for Christ's appearence on earth? We sometimes tend to focus on the sacrafice and the reason for the sacrafice and forget the ministry. Christ came to teach us something. To teach us how to live according to the law of God, and to keep the spirit of the law; how to love God with all our hearts, minds, and souls, and to love our neighbors as ourselves. He came to teach us how to live our lives in service to God, and with perfect obedience. We mustn't forget the ministry by focusing just on the sacrafice.

[Fire Watch]

So God devised a plan to reconcile fallen man back to Him. It was His law that man broke and His plan to forgive man. So here is what He did;

God Himself came down
Scripture says so doesn't it?

God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory. I Timothy 3:16

Jesus is "the image of the invisible God" (Colossians 1:15; II Corinthians 4:4).

He is God veiled in flesh (Hebrews 10:20).

and sacrificed Himself and bled and died and redeemed man back to Himself for breaking His law.
According to Acts 20:28, the church was purchased with God's own blood.

Who's blood was shed for us?

Meanwhile praying to Himself, for Himself that His own will would be done.

That is the most elementary of arguments that has been rehashed time and again in this and numerous other threads. I feel no urge to go over it yet again.

[Semi-Sweet]

September 15th, 2007 2:55 pm
RECONRICK
Scripture says so doesn't it?

God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory. I Timothy 3:16

Jesus is "the image of the invisible God" (Colossians 1:15; II Corinthians 4:4).

He is God veiled in flesh (Hebrews 10:20).

1 Timothy 3. . .13) "For those who serve well as deacons gain a good standing for themselves and great boldness in the faith that is in Christ Jesus. 14.) I hope to come to you soon, but I am writing these instructions to you so that 15.) if I am delayed, you may know how one ought to behave in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth. 16.) Without any doubt, the mystery of our godliness is great: He was revealed in flesh. vindicated in spirit, seen by angels, proclaimed among Gentiles, believed in throughout the world, taken up in glory."

You can see in vs 13, that this is talking about Christ Jesus. Vs 16, Christ was revealed in flesh, seen by angels. . .if this were God, why would it be a great thing to be seen by the angels that He had created? Taken up in glory. God created glory, this would not be a revelation [something that needed revealing] that God was in glory. .


Jesus is "the image of the invisible God" (Colossians 1:15; II Corinthians 4:4).

Col. 1:12. . ."giving thanks to the Father, who has enabled you to share in the inheritance of the saints in the light. 13.) He has rescued us from the power of darkness and transferred us into the kingdom of his beloved Son, 14.) in whom we have redemption, the forgivness of sins. 15.) He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation, for in him all things in heaven and on earth were created, things visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or powers all things have been created through him and for him. 17.) He himself is before all things and in him all things hold together. 18.) He is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that he might come to have first place in everything. 19.) For in him all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell, and through him God was pleased to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, by making peace through the blood of his cross."
Vs 12. . .tells us we are in the kingdom of God's Son Jesus Christ. vs 15. . . Christ is the image of the invisible God [most sons are the image of their fathers but they are not their father], the firstborn of all creation. . .this says it all right here. God was not 'firstborn of all creation' Jesus Christ was. If God was the 'firstborn' he failed to mention who his parents were.

II Cor. 4:3. . ."And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing. In their case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, to keep them from seeing the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God." Again here, the son is the image of his father. No surprise to fathers and sons.

He is God veiled in flesh (Hebrews 10:20).

Hebrews 10:19. . ."Therefore, my friends, since we have confidence to enter the sanctuary by the blood of Jesus, 20.) by the new and living way that he opened for us through the curtain that is through his flesh, and since we have a great priest over the house of God,". . . Read in the gospels about when Jesus died, how that the curtain that hung between the holy and the holy of holies in the temple was rent in twain, or tore in to. Jesus is now [vs 20] the great priest over the house of God. . .so through his sacrifice of his body, we have access directly to God through Jesus and not through the priest that presided over the temple offerings.

According to Acts 20:28, the church was purchased with God's own blood.

Acts 20:28. . ."Keep watch over yourselves and over all the flock, of which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God that he obtained with the BLOOD OF HIS OWN SON.

Who's blood was shed for us?

Jesus Christ our Saviour.

[Fire Watch]

Acts 20:28. . ."Keep watch over yourselves and over all the flock, of which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God that he obtained with the BLOOD OF HIS OWN SON.
WOW..which translation adds that to the scripture? Talk about an agenda driven translation. Good grief.

Act 20:28 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Act&chapter=20&verse=28&version=kjv#28)

Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

[Warrior4God]

Scripture says so doesn't it?

God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory. I Timothy 3:16

Jesus is "the image of the invisible God" (Colossians 1:15; II Corinthians 4:4).

He is God veiled in flesh (Hebrews 10:20).


According to Acts 20:28, the church was purchased with God's own blood.

Who's blood was shed for us?






1 Timothy 3:16
Beyond all question, the mystery of godliness is great: He appeared in a body, was vindicated by the Spirit, was seen by angels, was preached among the nations, was believed on in the world, was taken up in glory. (NIV)



1. Although the above verse in the NIV does not support the Trinity, there are some Greek manuscripts that read, “God appeared in the flesh.” This reading of some Greek manuscripts has passed into some English versions, and the King James Version is one of them. Trinitarian scholars admit, however, that these Greek texts were altered by scribes in favor of the Trinitarian position. The reading of the earliest and best manuscripts is not “God” but rather “he who.” Almost all the modern versions have the verse as “the mystery of godliness is great, which was manifest in the flesh,” or some close equivalent.

2. In regard to the above verse, Bruce Metzger writes:

[“He who”] is supported by the earliest and best uncials…no uncial (in the first hand) earlier than the eighth or ninth century supports theos; all ancient versions presuppose hos or ho [“he who” or “he”]; and no patristic writer prior to the last third of the fourth century testifies to the reading theos. The reading theos arose either (a) accidentally, or (b) deliberately, either to supply a substantive for the following six verbs [the six verbs that follow in the verse], or, with less probability, to provide greater dogmatic precision [i.e., to produce a verse that more clearly supports the Trinitarian position].” [35]

3. When properly translated, 1 Timothy 3:16 actually argues against the Trinity. “By common confession great is the mystery of godliness: He who was revealed in the flesh, Was vindicated in the Spirit, Beheld by angels, Proclaimed among the nations, Believed on in the world, Taken up in glory” (NASB). This section of Scripture beautifully portrays an overview of Christ’s life and accomplishments. It all fits with what we know of the man, Jesus Christ. If Jesus were God, this section of Scripture would have been the perfect place to say so. We should expect to see some phrases like, “God incarnate,” “God and Man united,” “very God and very man,” etc. But nothing like that occurs. Instead, the section testifies to what non-Trinitarians believe—that Christ was a man, begotten by the Father, and that he was taken up into glory.

http://www.biblicalunitarian.com/modules.php?name=Topics

There is a HUGE difference in being the image of God and being God.

Acts 20:28b
Be shepherds of the Church of God, which he bought with his own blood. (NIV)

1. There are some Greek manuscripts that read “the church of the Lord” instead of “the church of God.” Many Trinitarian scholars believe that “Lord” is the original reading, because there is no mention anywhere in the Bible of God having blood. If the Greek manuscripts that read “Lord” are the original ones, then the “problem” is solved. However, it is the belief of the authors that good textual research shows that “the church of God” is the correct reading.

2. Both the American Bible Society and the Institute For New Testament Research in Germany (which produces the Nestle-Aland Greek text) agree that the manuscript evidence supports the reading tou haimatios tou idiou, literally, the blood of His own (Son), and not idiou haimatios, “his own blood.” God paid for our salvation with the blood of His own Son, Jesus Christ.

3. The text note at the bottom of the very Trinitarian NIV Study Bible gets the meaning of the verse correct: “his own blood. Lit. ‘the blood of his own one,’ a term of endearment (such as ‘his own dear one’) referring to His own Son.”

Your post about Hebrews 10:20 I do not understand,The verse has nothing to do with God being veiled or anyone else for that matter.
It refers to Jesus being our high priest and entering inside the veil.

Heb 6:19 Which hope we have as an anchor of the soul, both sure and stedfast, and which entereth into that within the veil;

[Semi-Sweet]

WOW..which translation adds that to the scripture? Talk about an agenda driven translation. Good grief.

Act 20:28 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Act&chapter=20&verse=28&version=kjv#28)

Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

Which translation are you reading from? It sure reads different from mine. . . Mine is a Greek/English interlinear, which shows the greek words that it was translated from.

Other ancient manuscripts read "Blood of the Lord" some read "with the blood of his own"

[Fire Watch]

Which translation are you reading from? It sure reads different from mine. . . Mine is a Greek/English interlinear, which shows the greek words that it was translated from.

Other ancient manuscripts read "Blood of the Lord" some read "with the blood of his own"
That was the KJV.

Here's the NIV

Passage Acts 20:28:
28Keep watch over yourselves and all the flock of which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers. Be shepherds of the church of God, which he bought with his own blood.

New American Standard

28"Be on guard for yourselves and for all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood.

Amplified Bible

28Take care and be on guard for yourselves and the whole flock over which the Holy Spirit has appointed you bishops and guardians, to shepherd (tend and feed and guide) the church of the Lord or of God which He obtained for Himself with His own blood.

[B]New Living Translation

So guard yourselves and God’s people. Feed and shepherd God’s flock—his church, purchased with his own blood—over which the Holy Spirit has appointed you as elders.

21st Century KJV

Passage Acts 20:28:

28"Take heed therefore unto yourselves and to all the flock, over which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God which He hath purchased with His own blood.

American Standard

28 Take heed unto yourselves, and to all the flock, in which the Holy Spirit hath made you bishops, to feed the church of the Lord which he purchased with his own blood.


Youngs Literal Translation

28`Take heed, therefore, to yourselves, and to all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit made you overseers, to feed the assembly of God that He acquired through His own blood

Holman Christian Standard Bible

Passage Acts 20:28:
28 Be on guard for yourselves and for all the flock, among whom the Holy Spirit has appointed you as overseers, to shepherd the church of God, which He purchased with His own blood.

Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition

28Take heed to yourselves, and to the whole flock, wherein the Holy Ghost hath placed you bishops, to rule the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

New International Readers Version

28 "Keep watch over yourselves. Keep watch over all the believers. The Holy Spirit has made you leaders over them. Be shepherds of God's church. He bought it with his own blood.

Wycliffe New Tesstament

28 Take ye attention to you [Take attention to you], and to all the flock, in which the Holy Ghost hath set you bishops, to rule the church of God, which he [hath] purchased with his blood.

Today's New International Version

28 Keep watch over yourselves and all the flock of which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers. Be shepherds of the church of God, which he bought with his own blood.

http://bibleresources.bible.com/passagesearchresults.php?passage1=Act+20%3A28&version1=72

[drmilo]

Which translation are you reading from? It sure reads different from mine. . . Mine is a Greek/English interlinear, which shows the greek words that it was translated from.

Other ancient manuscripts read "Blood of the Lord" some read "with the blood of his own"

The word "of" connotes possession in English.

"The father of John" and "John's father" mean the same thing.

"the blood of his" and "his blood" are the same.

"the blood of his own" and "his own blood" are the same.

If the scrpture means "The blood of his own son" why then, did it not say so. There is no word for "son" in the original greek.

Again, I warn against the literal word-for-word translation of greek to english. Words have to be rearranged to get the proper meaning and fit the proper grammar of the english language.

As an example, the word-for-word translation of this passage from greek to english is:

"Be ye heeding to-selves and to-every the flocklet in which you the spirit the holy placed on-note to-be-shepherding the out-called of-the God which he-procures through the blood of-the own."

This makes no sense in English grammar. We must rearrange words and find other words in English that capture the meaning of the Greek. Thus, my Greek Interlinear, then further translated the meaning of these words as:

"Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood."

[Warrior4God]

The word "of" connotes possession in English.

"The father of John" and "John's father" mean the same thing.

"the blood of his" and "his blood" are the same.

"the blood of his own" and "his own blood" are the same.

If the scrpture means "The blood of his own son" why then, did it not say so. There is no word for "son" in the original greek.

Read my post on this verse.
If we had the original greek text we would have no problems but the Bible was translated and put together using many many texts.

[Semi-Sweet]

The word "of" connotes possession in English.
If the scrpture means "The blood of his own son" why then, did it not say so. There is no word for "son" in the original greek.

The words only begotten are derived from one compound Greek word. .monogenes the meaning of which is evident, for mono in the English word is only and genes in the English term is begotten.. The Greek term monogenes therefore cannot be fully translated without two English words. Any man, or set of men, who would drop genes from this word, and thus omit begotten, either does not grasp the original language and its meaning or he does not believe its doctrine.
This word monogenes occurs five times in our New Testament in reference to Christ and is consistently translated only begotten: Jno. 1:14, "the only begotten of the Father"; Jno 1:18, "the only begotten Son"; Jno. 3:16, "gave his only begotten Son"; 1 Jno. 4:9, "sent his only begotten Son." Then, in Heb. 11:17 the word occurs in the original and in the English in reference to the offering of Isaac by Abraham: "By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten [monogenes] son."

In this text the word son is in italics, showing that it is not in the original; so if the word begotten is omitted [as the new versions have done] this passage would end in mid-air. ."offered up his only"! Here it is evident that it requires the two words only begotten to fully translate the word monogenes he "offered up his only begotten." But the new translators are involved in the inconsistency of deleting the word begotten, which is in the text, but retaining the word son, which is not in the text, of Heb. 11:17. It is the evidence of an arbitrary policy of translation to serve their purpose of expunging the cardinal doctrine of the only begotten Son of God in the virgin birth of Christ from these New Testament texts, as they also did from the Isa. 7:14 passage of the Old Testament prophecy.

drmilo, I copied this from where I had posted it on another thread. I understand what you are saying, but when you compare these other scriptures, the translation is correct.

[Fire Watch]

The words only begotten are derived from one compound Greek word. .monogenes the meaning of which is evident, for mono in the English word is only and genes in the English term is begotten.. The Greek term monogenes therefore cannot be fully translated without two English words. Any man, or set of men, who would drop genes from this word, and thus omit begotten, either does not grasp the original language and its meaning or he does not believe its doctrine.
This word monogenes occurs five times in our New Testament in reference to Christ and is consistently translated only begotten: Jno. 1:14, "the only begotten of the Father"; Jno 1:18, "the only begotten Son"; Jno. 3:16, "gave his only begotten Son"; 1 Jno. 4:9, "sent his only begotten Son." Then, in Heb. 11:17 the word occurs in the original and in the English in reference to the offering of Isaac by Abraham: "By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten [monogenes] son."

In this text the word son is in italics, showing that it is not in the original; so if the word begotten is omitted [as the new versions have done] this passage would end in mid-air. ."offered up his only"! Here it is evident that it requires the two words only begotten to fully translate the word monogenes he "offered up his only begotten." But the new translators are involved in the inconsistency of deleting the word begotten, which is in the text, but retaining the word son, which is not in the text, of Heb. 11:17. It is the evidence of an arbitrary policy of translation to serve their purpose of expunging the cardinal doctrine of the only begotten Son of God in the virgin birth of Christ from these New Testament texts, as they also did from the Isa. 7:14 passage of the Old Testament prophecy.

drmilo, I copied this from where I had posted it on another thread. I understand what you are saying, but when you compare these other scriptures, the translation is correct.

That's concerning Hebrews and Isaiah, not Acts 20:28.

The Greek in 20:28 is "hos peripoieomai dia idios haima", which literally translated means "which he himself purchased through/with/in/by reason of/on account of his own blood.

[drmilo]

The words only begotten are derived from one compound Greek word. .monogenes the meaning of which is evident, for mono in the English word is only and genes in the English term is begotten.. The Greek term monogenes therefore cannot be fully translated without two English words. Any man, or set of men, who would drop genes from this word, and thus omit begotten, either does not grasp the original language and its meaning or he does not believe its doctrine.
This word monogenes occurs five times in our New Testament in reference to Christ and is consistently translated only begotten: Jno. 1:14, "the only begotten of the Father"; Jno 1:18, "the only begotten Son"; Jno. 3:16, "gave his only begotten Son"; 1 Jno. 4:9, "sent his only begotten Son." Then, in Heb. 11:17 the word occurs in the original and in the English in reference to the offering of Isaac by Abraham: "By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten [monogenes] son."

In this text the word son is in italics, showing that it is not in the original; so if the word begotten is omitted [as the new versions have done] this passage would end in mid-air. ."offered up his only"! Here it is evident that it requires the two words only begotten to fully translate the word monogenes he "offered up his only begotten." But the new translators are involved in the inconsistency of deleting the word begotten, which is in the text, but retaining the word son, which is not in the text, of Heb. 11:17. It is the evidence of an arbitrary policy of translation to serve their purpose of expunging the cardinal doctrine of the only begotten Son of God in the virgin birth of Christ from these New Testament texts, as they also did from the Isa. 7:14 passage of the Old Testament prophecy.

drmilo, I copied this from where I had posted it on another thread. I understand what you are saying, but when you compare these other scriptures, the translation is correct.


Perhaps I wasn't clear in my post: there is nothing in that verse that even hints at the word son having to be there. monogenes is not in this passage, so I fail to see how that is relevant to the passage:

"Prosecho heautou kai pas ho poimnion en hos humeis ho pneuma ho hagios tithemi episkopos poimaino ho ekklesia ho theos hos peripoieo dia ho haima ho idios."

Why assume that the word "son" was dropped when using the possessive prepostion "of" thus, the translation "blood of his own" is the same as "his own blood"

I fail to see how the example of monogenes you used has any bearing on the translation of this text.

[DRS]

I find it exciting to show from scripture the real Jesus Christ and I believe without a shadow of doubt that Jesus is not God and can't help but think with the proof through scripture that even the most commited tritarian would have doubts on such a doctrine when EVERY verse used to support it comes up short when you take away the spin and mystery.


You have to realize it is up to the indivual to accept what the scrupture says, some do not want to be viewed as different so they go with the crowd.

It is like the issue of Christians and violence, the same man who is credited with the creed that describes God wrote about the justification for Christians to use violence, even though the scriptures are clear on this too.

[Tucson Jim]

REally then using the Ot show me that Jesus is Almighty God.

I will as soon as you show me He is Michael the archangel.


Show me the scripture that says Jesus was a god/man. That idea comes from a greek word not the bible.

He is God (e.g. John 1:1 and numerous verses we show you practically every day)

He was obviously a man. (see the whole NT)

Therefore He is the God who became Man.

Simple.

[Angryamerican]

It's as plain as the nose on your face.

But not plain enough for some . . .

How plain is it that Jesus by his own words can't be God?

Joh 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

1Jn 4:12 No man hath beheld God at any time: if we love one another, God abideth in us, and his love is perfected in us:

[Angryamerican]

Matthew 16:13-17
(13) When Jesus came to the region of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, “Who do people say the Son of Man is?”
(14) They replied, “Some say John the Baptist; others say Elijah; and still others, Jeremiah or one of the prophets.”
(15) “But what about you?” he asked. “Who do you say I am?”
(16) Simon Peter answered, “You are the Christ, the son of the living God.”
(17) Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven.
God revealed to Peter who Jesus is.

Now that was beautiful :clap::clap::clap:

[Angryamerican]

Um . . . I think yer preachin' to the choir there when talking to DRS.

As for the rest of us, every single point you make has been rebutted repeatedly here from God's Word. It is the Bible that refutes your belief.

Jesus is God, as the Bible clearly points out - "the Word was with God and the word was God" - no need to read between the lines at all to see the truth of the Deity of Christ. It is as plain as day, whether you, or your Unitarian compadres, want to believe it or not.

Oh brother where art thou ?

[Angryamerican]

Paul never would allow false doctrine to be taught. There are disputable matters and things that should be overlooked. Some things, though, are harmful, and need to be refuted. A correct understanding of who God is, is of first importance.

Titus 1
9 He must hold firmly to the trustworthy message as it has been taught, so that he can encourage others by sound doctrine and refute those who oppose it.

Yes we have been doing that.

[DRS]

I will as soon as you show me He is Michael the archangel.




He is God (e.g. John 1:1 and numerous verses we show you practically every day)

He was obviously a man. (see the whole NT)

Therefore He is the God who became Man.

Simple.

Seeing as the bible is God's word you should be able to show me in the OT where Jesus is God ALmighty in the OT.

See the NT and OT are clear there is one God and He is known as Jehovah, Jesus is called His son, John 1:1 show Jesus was with the God-Jehovah

[Angryamerican]

That is such an eisigesical mess I dont even know where to start. Talk about spinning something to fit a doctrine!

There is one throne in heaven and One who sits upon it. This One is God because the twenty-four elders around the throne address Him as "Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come". From the CONTEXT of Rev. chapters 1 and 4, there can be no doubt that the One on the throne is Jesus Christ.



The Book of Revelation tells us that when we get to heaven we will see Jesus alone on the throne. Jesus is the only visible manifestation of God we will ever see.

Reco you need to brush up on the book revelation because it shows the slaughtered lamb approaching the one seated on the throne who truly is spinning here?

[Angryamerican]

Your argument is with scripture, not us.

No the argument is the verbage used by trinitarians to support their view or explain away scriptures that contradict your belief.

[Angryamerican]

WOW..which translation adds that to the scripture? Talk about an agenda driven translation. Good grief.

Act 20:28 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Act&chapter=20&verse=28&version=kjv#28)

Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

Reco your version looks agenda driven as well.

[Fire Watch]

Reco your version looks agenda driven as well.
Which one? I posted about 15 as well as the literal word for word translation from the Greek as did another poster. The only agenda in those translations provided by me are the "let's get this right, and not add words/context/intent/meaning that isnt there".

[Angryamerican]

WOW..which translation adds that to the scripture? Talk about an agenda driven translation. Good grief.

Act 20:28 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Act&chapter=20&verse=28&version=kjv#28)

Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

But does that scripture prove anything? because if Jesus is the son of God would not Jesus blood belong to God also?

[Fire Watch]

Oh brother. Back to the football game. Have a nice day.

[Angryamerican]

Which one? I posted about 15 as well as the literal word for word translation from the Greek as did another poster. The only agenda in those translations provided by me are the "let's get this right, and not add words/context/intent/meaning that isnt there".

How many versions of the scriptures are there?

But you are sure the version you read from is the only correct version. so i would say most bibles are agenda driven wouldn't you agree?

That is why it is hard to come to a compromise. Everyone believes their version is totally correct and i'm not sure which is truly correct are you?

[Angryamerican]

Oh brother. Back to the football game. Have a nice day.

Go cardinals !!!

[DispensationalJim]

I would like to try this again...

Please forgive me, but I still would appreciate it if someone would try to explain how they can say according to the Bible there is only one Lord (Jesus), one Saviour (Jesus), one Redeemer (Jesus), one King (Jesus), One Creator (Jesus), etc., but yet Jesus is not God. My King James Bible seems quite clear to me about who Jesus is:


• JESUS IS THE LORD, THE SAVIOUR, AND THE REDEEMER (THUS GOD)
* Isaiah 43:3 For I am the LORD thy God... thy Saviour... 11 I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour. 45:21 ...there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour: there is none beside me. 49:26 ...and all flesh shall know that I the LORD) am thy Saviour and thy Redeenrer... 60:16 ...and thou shalt know that I the LORD am thy Saviour and thy Redeemer...
* John 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him(Jesus), My Lord and my God.
* Galatians 3:13 Christ hath redeemed us...
* Titus 2:14...he might redeem us from all iniquity...
* Luke 2:11 ...a Saviour. which is Christ the Lord.
* John 4:42 ...this is indeed the Christ, the Saviour of the world.
* Ephesians 4:5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism.
* 1’Timothy 6: 15 ...the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;
* Revelation l7: 14 ... and the Lamb shall overcome them:for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings... 19: 16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.
* Luke 23:42 he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me...
* Acts 9:5 ...the Lord said, l am Jesus... 9:29 And he spake boldy in the name of the Lord Jesus,...
* Romans 1:3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord,... 6:11 ...through Jesus Christ our Lord.
* ICorinthians 10:28 ...for thc earth is the Lord’s, and the fulness thereof... 15:47 ... the second man is the Lord from heaven.
* 2Corinthians 4: 10 ...the dying of the Lord Jesus...
* Epesians 3:14 ...of our Lord Jesus Christ,
* l Timothv 1:4 ...by the commandment of God our Saviour, and Lord Jesus Christ...
* Titus 1:4 ...the Lord Jesus Christ our Saviour.

• In the New Testament,"LORD JESUS” is found in the KJV about 120 times. Jesus is referred to as "THE SAVIOUR” 25 times. The Apostle Paul uses the phrase "GOD THE SAVIOUR” 7 times!

• JESUS IS THE CREATOR (THUS HE IS GOD)
* Ephesians 3:9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:
* Col. 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
* Heb. 1:1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, 2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
* Heb. 11:3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.

• JESUS IS THE ALPHA AND OMEGA, THE BEGINNING AND THE END, THE FlRST AND THE LAST, THE ALMIGHTY
* Isaiah 44:6 Thus saith the LORD...; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.
* Revelation 1:8 I am Alpha and Omega, the begin-ning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.
* Revelation 1:11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book...
* Revelation 22: 12 ...behold,I come quickly; and my reward is with me... 13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last... 16 I, Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things...

• JESUS IS THE ONLY WAY:
* John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I AM THE WAY, THE TRUTH, AND THE LIFE; NO MAN COMETH UNTO THE FATHER BUT BY ME.

• Jesus is a member of THE TRINITY:
* 1 John 5:7: For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three ane one.

• JESUS IS THE CHRIST/MESSIAH
* John 1:41 ...We have found the Messiah, which is, being interpteted, the Christ.
* Matthew 23:8 ...one is your master, even Christ;... John 4:42 ...this is indeed the Christ, the Saviour of the world.
* John6:69 ...thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God
* Acts 19:4 ...they should believe on...Christ Jesus. Romans 1:16 For l am not ashamed ofthe gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth... 16:20 The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you. Amen.
* lCorinthians 5:4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, ...with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ
* Galatians 4:7 ...an heir of God through Christ.
* 1 John 1;2 ...and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
========================

My conclusion from the King James Bible is:
• JESUS IS GOD
* John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. ...All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made...l4 And the Word was madeflesh, and dwelt among us,...
* John 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.
* Philippians 2:5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: 4 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
* Heb. 1:8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
* Psa. 45:6 Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: the sceptre of thy kingdom is a right sceptre.

• JESUS IS A MEMBER OF THE GODHEAD:
* Romans 1:20 ...even his eternal power and Godhead...
* Colossians 2;9 For in him (Jesus) dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. (also Acts 17:29).


DJim

[Semi-Sweet]

I found this in the trinity archives, Barb is an acquaintance of mine and it's worth a rerun.

BarbBryant
I am not a member of any 'denomination' and I do not believe there is scriptural proof of a 'trinity. God is Spirit and Christ is the Son of God.

Paul says in Rom 1:20 we can only understand the spiritual (invisible) by the physical (visible) "....even His eternal power and DIVINITY so they are without excuse." When we use this principle, we understand Paul's using of it in I Cor 11:3: "But I would have you know that the head of every man is Christ: and the head of the woman is the man, and the head of Christ is God.".....(vs12) "For as the woman is of the man even so is the man by the woman: but all things OF GOD."

Woman was created FOR the man, not man created FOR the woman but every man except Adam came through (by) a woman. (I Cor 11:9)

By applying this 'visible to the invisible' principle, we see in the beginning the Father created Christ and through (by) Christ everything else is created. But since one scripture does not contradict another, we must test this statement.

Being 'the image of' is not being that thing, entity, etc. Col 1:15-17 "Who (Christ) is the image of [not God, but 'image of'] the invisible God, the firstborn of EVERY creature: for by Him (Christ) were all things created that are in heaven and that are in earth; visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities or powers: All things were created by Him and for Him. And He is before all things and by Him all things consist."

The proper translation of John 1:1-4 is " In the beginning was the word, and the word (Gr: logos - spoken idea, thought, reason), was toward God [Gr – theos – divinity], and God [theos] was the word. This was in the beginning toward God. All came into being through it [the Word], and apart from it not even one thing came into being which has come into being. In it was life, and the life was the light of men."

"Jesus answered them, "Many ideal acts I show you from My Father. Because of what act of them are you stoning Me?" The Jews answered Him, "For an ideal act we are not stoning you, but for blasphemy, and that you, being a man, are making yourself God." Jesus answered them, "Is it not written in your law, that 'I say you are gods'? If He said those were gods, to whom the word of God came (and the scripture can not be annulled), are you saying to Him Whom the Father hallows and dispatches into the world that 'You are blaspheming,' seeing that I said, 'Son of God am I'? (John 10:32-36) Christ distinguishes being a god from being the Father quite clearly. Those 'gods' who will say with Christ, 'my Father is greater than I (John 14:28) and keep His Word will be worshipped at the Son's command.

"For even as the Father has life in Himself, thus to the Son also He gives to have life in Himself. (Joh 5:26) and " I can not do anything of Myself. According as I am hearing am I judging; and My judging is just, for I am not seeking My will, but the will of Him Who sends Me." (John 5:30)

Who does He say He is? "And to the messenger of the ecclesia in Laodicea write: 'Now this is saying the Amen, the Faithful and True Witness, and God's Creative Original:" (Rev. 3:14) Why does man add to or ignore those words? How in the world can we demean our Father AND His Son by making them ONE entity – when the Son from the very beginning of His ministry said "I must be about my Father's business." How many times did He call on 'my Father in Heaven'?

There are two other plain statements in scripture that tells us who He is: I Cor. 8:6: "nevertheless for us there is one God, the Father, out of Whom all is, and we for Him, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through Whom all is, and we through Him." And 1 Cor 15:27-28. "For he [the Father] hath put all things under his [Christ's] feet. But when he [the Father] saith all things are put under him [Christ], it is manifest [Gr: dēlos - certain, evident] that he [the Father] is excepted [Gr: ektos - aside from], which did put all things under him [Christ]. And when all things shall be subdued unto him [Christ], then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him [the Father] that put all things under him [Christ], that God [the Father] may be all in all." Why don't we believe it?

We should rejoice that before the Father, created the physical 'type' that the last (Spiritual) 'Adam' was THERE to redeem us who came through the first "Adam' (flesh). (I Cor 15:45)

"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, Who blesses us with every spiritual blessing among the celestials, in Christ, according as He chooses us in Him before the disruption of the world, we to be holy and flawless in His sight, in love designating us beforehand for the place of a son for Him through Christ Jesus; in accord with the delight of His will (Eph 1:3-5)

"Having made known to us the mystery (secret) of His will, according to His good pleasure which He has purposed in Himself:" (and the secret is) "That in the dispensation of the fullness of times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven and which are on earth; even in Him:" (Eph 1:9-10)

"...I [Jesus] came out from God. I came out from the Father.."(John 16:27-28).

Jesus Christ has a God and Father but the Father does not. Jesus Christ is was, and always will be "subject" to God, the Father (I Cor. 15:24-28).

"For let this disposition be in you, which is in Christ Jesus also, [doesn't that mean we are to have the disposition OF Christ IN us? Does that make us Christ?] Who, being inherently in the form of God [form OF not GOD], deems it not pillaging to be equal with God, nevertheless empties Himself, taking the form of a slave, coming to be in the likeness of humanity and, being found in fashion as a human, He humbles Himself, becoming obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. Wherefore, also, God highly exalts Him, and graces Him with the name that is above every name, that in the name of Jesus every knee should be bowing, celestial and terrestrial and subterranean, and every tongue should be acclaiming that Jesus Christ is Lord, for the glory of God, the Father. (Phil 2:5-11)

[Tucson Jim]

How plain is it that Jesus by his own words can't be God?

Joh 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

1Jn 4:12 No man hath beheld God at any time: if we love one another, God abideth in us, and his love is perfected in us:

First of all, you should brush up on your NT since the 1 John quote is not "Jesus own words" as you stated but are, as the reference suggests, the words of John the Apostle.

Regarding the John 1:18 quote of Jesus, I think the Lord's meaning about declaring the Father is clarified later in the same Gospel:

"If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.

8Philip saith unto him, Lord, show us the Father, and it sufficeth us.

9Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father;
" John 14: 7- 8.

But of course, none of this matters to you anyway since you believe the NT is fictional.

[Tucson Jim]

Oh brother where art thou ?

I'm reading the Bible - where art thou?

[Tucson Jim]

Seeing as the bible is God's word you should be able to show me in the OT where Jesus is God ALmighty in the OT.

I thought the terms of the deal were clear - prove to me Jesus is Michael and I will show you Jesus in the OT.

If not, you have nothing to say . . .

See the NT and OT are clear there is one God and He is known as Jehovah, Jesus is called His son, John 1:1 show Jesus was with the God-Jehovah

Yeah, you just forgot that one tiny bit of info right after Jesus being "with" God - you know, the part about Him "being" God.

Yes, you're right, the NT is clear - Jesus is God.

[Tucson Jim]

Reco you need to brush up on the book revelation because it shows the slaughtered lamb approaching the one seated on the throne who truly is spinning here?

You.

Because: 1) you don't believe the Book of Revelation is really scripture, and 2) you seem to be selectively forgetting the part Rick quoted about "the throne" (singular) of God and the Lamb. One throne, belongs to God and the Lamb.

[Tucson Jim]

No the argument is the verbage used by trinitarians to support their view or explain away scriptures that contradict your belief.

No "verbiage" needed - the Bible plainly says Jesus is God.

[Tucson Jim]

How many versions of the scriptures are there?

But you are sure the version you read from is the only correct version.

You seem to have missed Rick's point entirely. He quoted 15 versions that all say essentially the same thing to show that the ONE version that says something else is somewhere between left and center field.

The Deity of Christ can be clearly shown in the vast majority of translations, and not quite as clearly in the remaining few.

[Tucson Jim]

I would like to try this again...

Please forgive me, but I still would appreciate it if someone would try to explain how they can say according to the Bible there is only one Lord (Jesus), one Saviour (Jesus), one Redeemer (Jesus), one King (Jesus), One Creator (Jesus), etc., but yet Jesus is not God. My King James Bible seems quite clear to me about who Jesus is:


• JESUS IS THE LORD, THE SAVIOUR, AND THE REDEEMER (THUS GOD)
* Isaiah 43:3 For I am the LORD thy God... thy Saviour... 11 I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour. 45:21 ...there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour: there is none beside me. 49:26 ...and all flesh shall know that I the LORD) am thy Saviour and thy Redeenrer... 60:16 ...and thou shalt know that I the LORD am thy Saviour and thy Redeemer...
* John 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him(Jesus), My Lord and my God.
* Galatians 3:13 Christ hath redeemed us...
* Titus 2:14...he might redeem us from all iniquity...
* Luke 2:11 ...a Saviour. which is Christ the Lord.
* John 4:42 ...this is indeed the Christ, the Saviour of the world.
* Ephesians 4:5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism.
* 1’Timothy 6: 15 ...the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;
* Revelation l7: 14 ... and the Lamb shall overcome them:for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings... 19: 16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.
* Luke 23:42 he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me...
* Acts 9:5 ...the Lord said, l am Jesus... 9:29 And he spake boldy in the name of the Lord Jesus,...
* Romans 1:3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord,... 6:11 ...through Jesus Christ our Lord.
* ICorinthians 10:28 ...for thc earth is the Lord’s, and the fulness thereof... 15:47 ... the second man is the Lord from heaven.
* 2Corinthians 4: 10 ...the dying of the Lord Jesus...
* Epesians 3:14 ...of our Lord Jesus Christ,
* l Timothv 1:4 ...by the commandment of God our Saviour, and Lord Jesus Christ...
* Titus 1:4 ...the Lord Jesus Christ our Saviour.

• In the New Testament,"LORD JESUS” is found in the KJV about 120 times. Jesus is referred to as "THE SAVIOUR” 25 times. The Apostle Paul uses the phrase "GOD THE SAVIOUR” 7 times!

• JESUS IS THE CREATOR (THUS HE IS GOD)
* Ephesians 3:9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:
* Col. 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
* Heb. 1:1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, 2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
* Heb. 11:3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.

• JESUS IS THE ALPHA AND OMEGA, THE BEGINNING AND THE END, THE FlRST AND THE LAST, THE ALMIGHTY
* Isaiah 44:6 Thus saith the LORD...; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.
* Revelation 1:8 I am Alpha and Omega, the begin-ning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.
* Revelation 1:11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book...
* Revelation 22: 12 ...behold,I come quickly; and my reward is with me... 13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last... 16 I, Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things...

• JESUS IS THE ONLY WAY:
* John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I AM THE WAY, THE TRUTH, AND THE LIFE; NO MAN COMETH UNTO THE FATHER BUT BY ME.

• Jesus is a member of THE TRINITY:
* 1 John 5:7: For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three ane one.

• JESUS IS THE CHRIST/MESSIAH
* John 1:41 ...We have found the Messiah, which is, being interpteted, the Christ.
* Matthew 23:8 ...one is your master, even Christ;... John 4:42 ...this is indeed the Christ, the Saviour of the world.
* John6:69 ...thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God
* Acts 19:4 ...they should believe on...Christ Jesus. Romans 1:16 For l am not ashamed ofthe gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth... 16:20 The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you. Amen.
* lCorinthians 5:4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, ...with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ
* Galatians 4:7 ...an heir of God through Christ.
* 1 John 1;2 ...and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
========================

My conclusion from the King James Bible is:
• JESUS IS GOD
* John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. ...All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made...l4 And the Word was madeflesh, and dwelt among us,...
* John 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.
* Philippians 2:5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: 4 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
* Heb. 1:8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
* Psa. 45:6 Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: the sceptre of thy kingdom is a right sceptre.

• JESUS IS A MEMBER OF THE GODHEAD:
* Romans 1:20 ...even his eternal power and Godhead...
* Colossians 2;9 For in him (Jesus) dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. (also Acts 17:29).


DJim

Excellent post D-Jim!! I'm archiving this one!

[Tucson Jim]

I found this in the trinity archives, Barb is an acquaintance of mine and it's worth a rerun.

I disagree - it simply rehashes the same arguments DRS, Warrior and Angry have been saying for months.

Each argument presented has been capably and amply rebutted in this thread already.

Your friend may not be part of any "denomination" (how often have we heard THAT in this thread?) but I would be willing to bet she is part of a "church".

[Angryamerican]

I found this in the trinity archives, Barb is an acquaintance of mine and it's worth a rerun.

That was great.

[Angryamerican]

First of all, you should brush up on your NT since the 1 John quote is not "Jesus own words" as you stated but are, as the reference suggests, the words of John the Apostle.

Regarding the John 1:18 quote of Jesus, I think the Lord's meaning about declaring the Father is clarified later in the same Gospel:

"If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.

8Philip saith unto him, Lord, show us the Father, and it sufficeth us.

9Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father;
" John 14: 7- 8.

But of course, none of this matters to you anyway since you believe the NT is fictional.

If they were not the words of Jesus why is John saying such a thing?

[Angryamerican]

First of all, you should brush up on your NT since the 1 John quote is not "Jesus own words" as you stated but are, as the reference suggests, the words of John the Apostle.

Regarding the John 1:18 quote of Jesus, I think the Lord's meaning about declaring the Father is clarified later in the same Gospel:

"If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.

8Philip saith unto him, Lord, show us the Father, and it sufficeth us.

9Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father;
" John 14: 7- 8.

But of course, none of this matters to you anyway since you believe the NT is fictional.

If he is the image of the invisible God would he not be like his father in thought and mind?

[Angryamerican]

I thought the terms of the deal were clear - prove to me Jesus is Michael and I will show you Jesus in the OT.

If not, you have nothing to say . . .



Yeah, you just forgot that one tiny bit of info right after Jesus being "with" God - you know, the part about Him "being" God.

Yes, you're right, the NT is clear - Jesus is God.

I'm sure there are plenty of readers here that would like you to show Jesus in the OT. :think:

[Angryamerican]

You.

Because: 1) you don't believe the Book of Revelation is really scripture, and 2) you seem to be selectively forgetting the part Rick quoted about "the throne" (singular) of God and the Lamb. One throne, belongs to God and the Lamb.


It looks like two were at the throne not just one.

[Angryamerican]

No "verbiage" needed - the Bible plainly says Jesus is God.

Oh brother :rolleyes::naughty:

[Fire Watch]

It looks like two were at the throne not just one.

That doesnt change the CLEAR UNAMBIGUOUS language telling WHO is on the throne...and that ONE on the throne is GOD.

There is one throne in heaven and One who sits upon it. John told us this in Revelation 4:2: "And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne." This One is God because the twenty-four elders around the throne address Him as "Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come" (Revelation 4:8). When we compare this to Revelation 1:5-18, we see a remarkable similarity in the description of Jesus and the One sitting on the throne. "I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty" (Revelation 1:8). Verses 5-7 make clear that Jesus is the One speaking in verse 8. Also..Jesus is clearly the subject of Revelation 1:11-18. In verse 11, Jesus identified Himself as the Alpha and Omega, the first and the last. In verses 17-18 Jesus said, "I am the first and the last: I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of bell and of death." From the first chapter of Revelation, therefore, we find that Jesus is the Lord, the Almighty, and the One who is, was, and is to come. Since the same descriptive terms and titles apply to Jesus and to the One sitting on the throne, it is UNDENIABLE that the One on the throne is Jesus Christ.

Want more?? Revelation 4:11 tells us the One on the throne is the Creator, and we know Jesus is the Creator (John 1:3; Colossians 1:16). The One on the throne is worthy to receive glory, honor, and power (Revelation 4:11).. we read that the Lamb that was slain (Jesus) is worthy to receive power, riches, wisdom, strength, honor, glory, and blessing (Revelation 5:12). Revelation 20:11-12 tells us the One on the throne is the Judge, and we know Jesus is the Judge of all (John 5:22, 27; Romans 2:16; 14:10-11). We HAVE to conclude that Jesus must be the One on the throne in Revelation 4.

[Angryamerican]

I disagree - it simply rehashes the same arguments DRS, Warrior and Angry have been saying for months.

Each argument presented has been capably and amply rebutted in this thread already.

Your friend may not be part of any "denomination" (how often have we heard THAT in this thread?) but I would be willing to bet she is part of a "church".

In your biased opinion, you still can't seem to explain the scriptures away that contradict the trinity because you can't explain away truth.

[Angryamerican]

That doesnt change the CLEAR UNAMBIGUOUS language telling WHO is on the throne...and that ONE on the throne is GOD.

What was the point to the vision ?

Why would it show two different beings if there truly is just one?

It showed two different beings, with different descriptions of the two.

[Fire Watch]

What was the point to the vision ?

Why would it show two different beings if there truly is just one?

It showed two different beings, with different descriptions of the two.

God's purpose in having John to write the book was to reveal or unveil Jesus Christ. ALL of John's writings strongly emphasize the deity of Christ, and the dual nature of Christ. John wrote the Gospel of John so that we would believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God (John 20:31). Accepting Jesus as the Son of God means accepting Him as God, because the title "Son of God" simply means God manifested in the flesh. John identified Jesus as God, the Word, and Jehovah (the I am). All of John's writings elevate the deity of Jesus; the Book of Revelation is no exception.

As I've stated repeatedly AA, "Father" refers to God's existence apart from the incarnation as the exclusive, invisible Spirit. The Bible is clear that no man can see, nor has seen God (John 1:18; John 6:46; I John 4:12). When it says we cannot see God it is referring to God's essence. God is Spirit, and as such is invisible. Jesus, however, is the image of the invisible God (Colossians 1:15), the express image of His very person (Hebrews 1:3). That is why Jesus could say to Philip, "He who has seen me has seen the Father" (John 14:9; 12:45). To see Jesus is not to see God's essence, but it is to see His essence as He has manifested Himself in human form. Jesus is the only God we shall ever see throughout eternity, for His human existence is the only image of God’s person available to us. We will not see God and Jesus as two distinct eternal entities, but we will see God as He has manifested Himself to us in Jesus Christ.

Revelation 1:1 tells us the book is the revelation of Jesus Christ. The Greek for revelation is apokalupsis, from which we get the word apocalypse. It literally means an unveiling or an uncovering. The last chapter of Revelation describes God and the Lamb in the singular (Revelation 22:3-4) and identifies the Lord God of the holy prophets as Jesus (Revelation 22:6, 16). These references tell us that Jesus is the God of eternity and that He will appear with His glorified human body (the Lamb) throughout eternity. God's glory will be the light for the New Jerusalem as it shines through the glorified body of Jesus (Revelation 21:23). These closing chapters of the Book of Revelation describes how God will reveal (unveil) Himself in all His glory to everyone forever. They tell us that Jesus is the everlasting God and that Jesus will reveal Himself as God throughout eternity. Therefore, the book is the revelation of Jesus Christ.

[Angryamerican]

As I've stated repeatedly AA, "Father" refers to God's existence apart from the incarnation as the exclusive, invisible Spirit. The Bible is clear that no man can see, nor has seen God (John 1:18; John 6:46; I John 4:12). When it says we cannot see God it is referring to God's essence. God is Spirit, and as such is invisible. Jesus, however, is the image of the invisible God (Colossians 1:15), the express image of His very person (Hebrews 1:3). That is why Jesus could say to Philip, "He who has seen me has seen the Father" (John 14:9; 12:45). To see Jesus is not to see God's essence, but it is to see His essence as He has manifested Himself in human form. Jesus is the only God we shall ever see throughout eternity, for His human existence is the only image of God’s person available to us. We will not see God and Jesus as two distinct eternal entities, but we will see God as He has manifested Himself to us in Jesus Christ.

Revelation 1:1 tells us the book is the revelation of Jesus Christ. The Greek for revelation is apokalupsis, from which we get the word apocalypse. It literally means an unveiling or an uncovering. The last chapter of Revelation describes God and the Lamb in the singular (Revelation 22:3-4) and identifies the Lord God of the holy prophets as Jesus (Revelation 22:6, 16). These references tell us that Jesus is the God of eternity and that He will appear with His glorified human body (the Lamb) throughout eternity. God's glory will be the light for the New Jerusalem as it shines through the glorified body of Jesus (Revelation 21:23). These closing chapters of the Book of Revelation describes how God will reveal (unveil) Himself in all His glory to everyone forever. They tell us that Jesus is the everlasting God and that Jesus will reveal Himself as God throughout eternity. Therefore, the book is the revelation of Jesus Christ.

So Jesus is spirit correct ?



How did the deciples touch his wounds if he was spirit?

[Fire Watch]

So Jesus is spirit correct ?

How did the deciples touch his wounds if he was spirit?
AA, you're getting ridiculous. How many times must we go over and over the same material. Jesus is man and God. He is God made manifest in the flesh. Jesus is the invisible spirit of God incarnate.

[Tucson Jim]

If they were not the words of Jesus why is John saying such a thing?

It's an epistle, a letter to the church from the Apostle. Such letters rarely contain quotes of Jesus.

Not sure if I get your point . . .

[Tucson Jim]

If he is the image of the invisible God would he not be like his father in thought and mind?

Yes he would.

[Tucson Jim]

I'm sure there are plenty of readers here that would like you to show Jesus in the OT. :think:

As there are many who would like DRS to show us the proof that Jesus is Michael.

[Tucson Jim]

It looks like two were at the throne not just one.

So why it the throne called the throne of "God and the Lamb"?

[Angryamerican]

So why it the throne called the throne of "God and the Lamb"?

And implies more than one correct.

[Fire Watch]

And implies more than one correct.
No, it simply show that Jesus is BOTH. What? Is God (a bodiless spirit) sitting on the throne holding a pet lamb?

[Tucson Jim]

In your biased opinion, you still can't seem to explain the scriptures away that contradict the trinity because you can't explain away truth.

But of course we all know that your opinions are entirely free of bias . . . :rolleyes:

As for "explaining away" scriptures that "contradict the trinity", I have yet to see one.

[chainsawbob]

What language was Jesus speaking to the Jews when he said this? I would say he was speaking Hebrew.

In Hebrew, as Harmonious has posted, there is no words for "I am"

So, when God said "I am" in Exodus, the proper translation from the Hebrew would be "I shall be" or "I will be"

But, since Jesus was speaking Hebrew, then he, too, did not say "I am."

We do not have a Hebrew translation of the NT. We have the Greek. The term used to show what Jesus said is "Ego eimi" which is translated as "I am." But if Jesus was speaking Hebrew, then this can't be exactly what Jesus said. Instead, it is the best translation of the Hebrew to the Greek.

In Exodus, the Hebrew translation of what God said to Moses is "I shall be" or "I will be."

The Septuagint (translated by Jewish scholars) uses the Greek "Ego eimi" or "I am." This is the best Greek term to show what God said.

The Greek terms are the same. Both God and Jesus were speaking Hebrew. Therefore the only logical conclusion is that Jesus said what God said. The translation from Hebrew to Greek not being perfect notwithstanding.

Also, the Jews he was speaking to took up stones to try and stone him for saying it, because they thought he was telling them that he was God. They understood him to be saying the same thing that God told Moses. Does the fact that the Jews wanted to stone him make him God? No. But the fact that the Jews understood him to be saying the same words that God told Moses makes what Jesus said to them the same as what God said to Moses.

Your argument over translations falls short, DRS.

1. Hebrews 13:8
Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever.

This was Paul's letter to the Hebrews translated in Greek. Does this statement not make "I will be" or "I shall be", timeless in nature?

[Tucson Jim]

No, it simply show that Jesus is BOTH. What? Is God (a bodiless spirit) sitting on the throne holding a pet lamb?

:))

[Semi-Sweet]

As I've stated repeatedly AA, "Father" refers to God's existence apart from the incarnation as the exclusive, invisible Spirit. The Bible is clear that no man can see, nor has seen God (John 1:18; John 6:46; I John 4:12). When it says we cannot see God it is referring to God's essence. God is Spirit, and as such is invisible. Jesus, however, is the image of the invisible God (Colossians 1:15), the express image of His very person (Hebrews 1:3). That is why Jesus could say to Philip, "He who has seen me has seen the Father" (John 14:9; 12:45). To see Jesus is not to see God's essence, but it is to see His essence as He has manifested Himself in human form. Jesus is the only God we shall ever see throughout eternity, for His human existence is the only image of God’s person available to us. We will not see God and Jesus as two distinct eternal entities, but we will see God as He has manifested Himself to us in Jesus Christ.

Revelation 1:1 tells us the book is the revelation of Jesus Christ. The Greek for revelation is apokalupsis, from which we get the word apocalypse. It literally means an unveiling or an uncovering. The last chapter of Revelation describes God and the Lamb in the singular (Revelation 22:3-4) and identifies the Lord God of the holy prophets as Jesus (Revelation 22:6, 16). These references tell us that Jesus is the God of eternity and that He will appear with His glorified human body (the Lamb) throughout eternity. God's glory will be the light for the New Jerusalem as it shines through the glorified body of Jesus (Revelation 21:23). These closing chapters of the Book of Revelation describes how God will reveal (unveil) Himself in all His glory to everyone forever. They tell us that Jesus is the everlasting God and that Jesus will reveal Himself as God throughout eternity. Therefore, the book is the revelation of Jesus Christ.


Rev. 22:1-5 The Paradise of God . . . . .In closing his description of the holy city, John presents a series of symbolisms that identifies new Jerusalem as the promised and restored paradise of God. The paradise and dominion lost in the first Adam are now regained through the second Adam, except the form, the state, and the relationship of the second paradise have taken on a higher nature and meaning. The first paradise was earthly and typical of a greater paradise to come. The first Adam was of the earth, earthy, but the second Adam was the Lord from heaven. And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly [1 Cor. 15:47-49].

God [not Jesus, the second Adam] was with Adam and Eve in the first Paradise, the Garden of Eden. . .

The first earthly Paradise was an image of the heavenly Paradise to come, and for that reason we will never return to bear the image of the earthly. To this end and for this cause Christ came into fleshly contact with man; not to establish hope in the flesh, but to lead us onward to where He himself was before He came into the flesh.

The new paradise of God has a river of life which originates from the throne of God and the Lamb; and because of its source it was pure, crystal clear, and life giving. This river is symbolic of a constant flow of life, and the fact that the throne of God and of the Lamb is mentioned as the source of this river emphasizes that this stream is the life of that perfect and heavenly commonwealth of the eternal kingdom.

The statement 22:4. . ."and they shall see his face", speaks of the full and complete knowledge and glory of God. In the new creation, the revelation of God through Christ reaches a fulness that enables man to see Him as he is [1 John 3:2].
The kingdom of eternal redemption is not entered by flesh and blood; man must be born again. Those that are born again are in this Spiritual Holy Kingdom, that we will see when our Soul/Spirit leaves our body.

[DRS]

No "verbiage" needed - the Bible plainly says Jesus is God.

Does it?

The bible also calls angels, judges Moses and Paul god does it mean they are Almighty God?

[DRS]

Rick how is it God submits all things except Himslelf to Jesus and then when death is no more all things are submitted to God including Jesus, who is heaven the whole time?

[ralittlefield]

Does it?

The bible also calls angels, judges Moses and Paul god does it mean they are Almighty God?.

No. It means they are so-called gods, but not true gods.


1 Corinth 8
4 So then, about eating food sacrificed to idols: We know that an idol is nothing at all in the world and that there is no God but one. 5 For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as indeed there are many “gods” and many “lords”), 6 yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.

[DRS]

.

No. It means they are so-called gods, but not true gods.


1 Corinth 8
4 So then, about eating food sacrificed to idols: We know that an idol is nothing at all in the world and that there is no God but one. 5 For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as indeed there are many “gods” and many “lords”), 6 yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.


So there is one God the Father also known as Jehovah and one Lord Jesus. Jesus would be called Lord as a husband would as head of the Christian congregation. And the head of Jesus is Jehovah, so he would be Jesus's Lord.

By the way they were not so called gods, they all represented the true god that is why they were called god.

Except Paul who was called god because he survived a snake bite.

[ralittlefield]

So there is one God the Father also known as Jehovah and one Lord Jesus. Jesus would be called Lord as a husband would as head of the Christian congregation. And the head of Jesus is Jehovah, so he would be Jesus's Lord.

By the way they were not so called gods, they all represented the true god that is why they were called god.

Except Paul who was called god because he survived a snake bite.

Being called god does not make one god.

[Semi-Sweet]

I disagree - it simply rehashes the same arguments DRS, Warrior and Angry have been saying for months.
Each argument presented has been capably and amply rebutted in this thread already.
Your friend may not be part of any "denomination" (how often have we heard THAT in this thread?) but I would be willing to bet she is part of a "church".

If your way of rebuttal is to say 'I disagree' that argument 'won't hold shucks'.

You have the right to disagree, but don't expect everyone to agree with you. We all have a right to our own opinion and God the righteous judge will judge each of us, not you. We can and will rehash old arguments, and new arguments as much as we please. I really don't care how many arguments presented that you have rebutted. Your rebuttals don't mean anything to me.

My friend said that she was not a part of any denomination, and you passed judgement and bet that she was a liar. If this rebuttal is a sample of your other rebuttals, that won't hold shucks. Sounds like your way of rebuttal is to say 'we have already hashed that out', and you know what that argument won't do. :D

[Angryamerican]

It's an epistle, a letter to the church from the Apostle. Such letters rarely contain quotes of Jesus.

Not sure if I get your point . . .

So the apostle is suggesting that Jesus can't be God because man saw jesus .

If jesus was God why did the apostle say that?

So much for the apostles believing in the doctrine of the trinity.

[Angryamerican]

AA, you're getting ridiculous. How many times must we go over and over the same material. Jesus is man and God. He is God made manifest in the flesh. Jesus is the invisible spirit of God incarnate.

So you say, that i'm sorry is just your opinion.

[Angryamerican]

No, it simply show that Jesus is BOTH. What? Is God (a bodiless spirit) sitting on the throne holding a pet lamb?

I believe they are both spirits not just the same spirit.

[Angryamerican]

But of course we all know that your opinions are entirely free of bias . . . :rolleyes:

As for "explaining away" scriptures that "contradict the trinity", I have yet to see one.

Yeah you have you just choose to use verbiage that don't appear in the scriptures to explain it away.

[Angryamerican]

1. Hebrews 13:8
Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever.

This was Paul's letter to the Hebrews translated in Greek. Does this statement not make "I will be" or "I shall be", timeless in nature?


Funny the verse covers yesterday but not that he has always been.

[Angryamerican]

Does it?

The bible also calls angels, judges Moses and Paul god does it mean they are Almighty God?

Good point DRS.

[Angryamerican]

Rick how is it God submits all things except Himslelf to Jesus and then when death is no more all things are submitted to God including Jesus, who is heaven the whole time?

Dang you came loaded for bear OUCH !!

[Angryamerican]

Being called god does not make one god.

No nor does you calling jesus God.

[Angryamerican]

If your way of rebuttal is to say 'I disagree' that argument 'won't hold shucks'.

You have the right to disagree, but don't expect everyone to agree with you. We all have a right to our own opinion and God the righteous judge will judge each of us, not you. We can and will rehash old arguments, and new arguments as much as we please. I really don't care how many arguments presented that you have rebutted. Your rebuttals don't mean anything to me.

My friend said that she was not a part of any denomination, and you passed judgement and bet that she was a liar. If this rebuttal is a sample of your other rebuttals, that won't hold shucks. Sounds like your way of rebuttal is to say 'we have already hashed that out', and you know what that argument won't do. :D

Oh but his opinion is fact just ask him.;)

[Fire Watch]

Rick how is it God submits all things except Himslelf to Jesus and then when death is no more all things are submitted to God including Jesus, who is heaven the whole time?

God continues to exist in two ways (in the incarnation, and apart from the incarnation), and will continue to exist this way for eternity. This is not to say that we are going to see the Father and see Jesus in heaven. The Bible is clear that no man can see God (John 1:18; I Timothy 6:16; I John 4:12), which means we cannot see God in His essence. Jesus, however, is the image of the invisible God (II Corinthians 4:4; Colossians 1:15; Hebrews 1:3). He is God's essence made visible to man. Jesus is the only God we will ever see. He is the one who is on the throne (Revelation 22:3).

Paul said Jesus "is the image of the invisible God" (Colossians 1:15). The Greek word translated "image" is eikon, referring to a representation of something, and denoting the manifestation of a substance. Notice that Paul contrasted Jesus' image to that of the invisible God. The point Paul was trying to get across to his readers was that Jesus is the visible representation of God to man. That is why Jesus could say, "he that has seen Me has seen the Father" (John 14:9; also 12:45).

The author of Hebrews said Jesus is the "express image of his [God's] person" (1:3). "Express image" is from the Greek word charakter, meaning to impress upon, or stamp. It denotes an engravement from a tool, which impresses an image into that which is being engraved. This impression, then, is a characteristic of the instrument used to do produce it. What is produced corresponds precisely with the instrument.

The Greek word translated "person" is hypostasis. Although rendered as "person," it is more properly understood as essence of being, or the substance of a thing. Jesus, therefore, is not just a representation of God, but is the very visible impression of God's invisible substance and essence. He is God's very nature expressed in humanity. To say it another way, He is the corresponding engravement of God's essence of being, in human form.

The Scriptures are very clear in their portrayal of Jesus as being both man and God. He plays the role of the divine and of the human—two roles which had been heretofore worlds apart, calling for two different actors, and requiring two different stages. In Jesus, however, the infinite Spirit united with finite humanity to become the Son of God. These two natures seem mutually exclusive. Deity is infinite in knowledge, power, and presence. Humanity is limited in knowledge, power, and presence.

The way in which we can differentiate but not separate Christ's two natures may be compared to the way in which Paul differentiated between our inner and outer man. He said, "Though our outward man perish yet the inward man is renewed day by day" (II Corinthians 4:16). In another place he noted, "For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: but I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members" (Romans 7:22-23). Both of these references make a distinction between our spirit-man and our fleshly-man, yet such a distinction was never intended to teach that we are two people. In a similar way we can attribute the cause of certain activities or sayings of Christ to one of His natures, but we cannot say that these only occur in one nature to the exclusion of the other because of the fact that Christ is one whole unified person. Whatever He does He does as God unified to humanity.

[Fire Watch]

I believe they are both spirits not just the same spirit.
There are many Scriptures that bear witness to the fact that Christ's humanity continued beyond the ascension. Colossians 2:9 says, "For in him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily." The Greek word katoikei, translated "dwells" is a present tense verb, indicating that the fullness of the Godhead was dwelling in Christ's body at the time of Paul's writing. Paul penned Colossians around AD 60-61, some thirty years after Jesus' ascension. It is clear that Paul believed Jesus still possessed a human body.

If you're going to argue that Jesus' glorification brought about an obliteration of His humanity. While glorification may enhance the nature of humanity, it does not change the nature of humanity. We will be glorified after the pattern of Christ (Phil 3:21; I John 3:1-2), and yet we have no reason to believe that our humanity will cease to exist. According to Paul the resurrection and glorification involves the perfecting and exalting of our human bodies (I Corinthians 15:42-54). If our glorification patterns Christ's glorification, then we must conclude that His glorification involved the exaltation of His human body as well. It must be understood that glorification is not the same as deification. Jesus did not cease being man upon His glorification. The glorification, rather, is the eternal exaltation of Jesus' humanity.

[DRS]

God continues to exist in two ways (in the incarnation, and apart from the incarnation), and will continue to exist this way for eternity. This is not to say that we are going to see the Father and see Jesus in heaven. The Bible is clear that no man can see God (John 1:18; I Timothy 6:16; I John 4:12), which means we cannot see God in His essence. Jesus, however, is the image of the invisible God (II Corinthians 4:4; Colossians 1:15; Hebrews 1:3). He is God's essence made visible to man. Jesus is the only God we will ever see. He is the one who is on the throne (Revelation 22:3).

Paul said Jesus "is the image of the invisible God" (Colossians 1:15). The Greek word translated "image" is eikon, referring to a representation of something, and denoting the manifestation of a substance. Notice that Paul contrasted Jesus' image to that of the invisible God. The point Paul was trying to get across to his readers was that Jesus is the visible representation of God to man. That is why Jesus could say, "he that has seen Me has seen the Father" (John 14:9; also 12:45).

The author of Hebrews said Jesus is the "express image of his [God's] person" (1:3). "Express image" is from the Greek word charakter, meaning to impress upon, or stamp. It denotes an engravement from a tool, which impresses an image into that which is being engraved. This impression, then, is a characteristic of the instrument used to do produce it. What is produced corresponds precisely with the instrument.

The Greek word translated "person" is hypostasis. Although rendered as "person," it is more properly understood as essence of being, or the substance of a thing. Jesus, therefore, is not just a representation of God, but is the very visible impression of God's invisible substance and essence. He is God's very nature expressed in humanity. To say it another way, He is the corresponding engravement of God's essence of being, in human form.

The Scriptures are very clear in their portrayal of Jesus as being both man and God. He plays the role of the divine and of the human—two roles which had been heretofore worlds apart, calling for two different actors, and requiring two different stages. In Jesus, however, the infinite Spirit united with finite humanity to become the Son of God. These two natures seem mutually exclusive. Deity is infinite in knowledge, power, and presence. Humanity is limited in knowledge, power, and presence.

The way in which we can differentiate but not separate Christ's two natures may be compared to the way in which Paul differentiated between our inner and outer man. He said, "Though our outward man perish yet the inward man is renewed day by day" (II Corinthians 4:16). In another place he noted, "For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: but I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members" (Romans 7:22-23). Both of these references make a distinction between our spirit-man and our fleshly-man, yet such a distinction was never intended to teach that we are two people. In a similar way we can attribute the cause of certain activities or sayings of Christ to one of His natures, but we cannot say that these only occur in one nature to the exclusion of the other because of the fact that Christ is one whole unified person. Whatever He does He does as God unified to humanity.

Paul shows them as two distinct personages, and through two passages in the OT we see them as seperate also. First in Psalms when Jehovah says sit at my right hand, and secondly in Daniel when the son of man is brought before the Ancient of Days.

[Fire Watch]

Paul shows them as two distinct personages.
No he didnt. He showed the distinction between the incarnate man and the omnipresent God.

[DRS]

No he didnt. He showed the distinction between the incarnate man and the omnipresent God.

They are both in heaven here

1 Corinthians 15:20*However, now Christ has been raised up from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep [in death]. 21*For since death is through a man, resurrection of the dead is also through a man. 22*For just as in Adam all are dying, so also in the Christ all will be made alive. 23*But each one in his own rank: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who belong to the Christ during his presence. 24*Next, the end, when he hands over the kingdom to his God and Father, when he has brought to nothing all government and all authority and power. 25*For he must rule as king until [God] has put all enemies under his feet. 26*As the last enemy, death is to be brought to nothing. 27*For [God] “subjected all things under his feet.” But when he says that ‘all things have been subjected,’ it is evident that it is with the exception of the one who subjected all things to him. 28*But when all things will have been subjected to him, then the Son himself will also subject himself to the One who subjected all things to him, that God may be all things to everyone.

[Fire Watch]

You can try to debate semantics all you want, but the Book of Revelation makes it abundantly clear that there is one throne, the one that sits on that throne is Jesus, and the one that sits upon that throne is God.

There is one throne in heaven and One who sits upon it. John told us this in Revelation 4:2: "And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne." This One is God because the twenty-four elders around the throne address Him as "Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come" (Revelation 4:8). When we compare this to Revelation 1:5-18, we see a remarkable similarity in the description of Jesus and the One sitting on the throne. "I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty" (Revelation 1:8). Verses 5-7 make clear that Jesus is the One speaking in verse 8. Also..Jesus is clearly the subject of Revelation 1:11-18. In verse 11, Jesus identified Himself as the Alpha and Omega, the first and the last. In verses 17-18 Jesus said, "I am the first and the last: I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of bell and of death." From the first chapter of Revelation, therefore, we find that Jesus is the Lord, the Almighty, and the One who is, was, and is to come. Since the same descriptive terms and titles apply to Jesus and to the One sitting on the throne, it is UNDENIABLE that the One on the throne is Jesus Christ.

Want more?? Revelation 4:11 tells us the One on the throne is the Creator, and we know Jesus is the Creator (John 1:3; Colossians 1:16). The One on the throne is worthy to receive glory, honor, and power (Revelation 4:11).. we read that the Lamb that was slain (Jesus) is worthy to receive power, riches, wisdom, strength, honor, glory, and blessing (Revelation 5:12). Revelation 20:11-12 tells us the One on the throne is the Judge, and we know Jesus is the Judge of all (John 5:22, 27; Romans 2:16; 14:10-11). We HAVE to conclude that Jesus must be the One on the throne in Revelation 4.

[DRS]

You can try to debate semantics all you want, but the Book of Revelation makes it abundantly clear that there is one throne, the one that sits on that throne is Jesus, and the one that sits upon that throne is God.

There are others siting on thrones as promised


(Luke 22:30) that YOU may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones to judge the twelve tribes of Israel

Revelation 3:19*“‘All those for whom I have affection I reprove and discipline. Therefore be zealous and repent. 20*Look! I am standing at the door and knocking. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come into his [house] and take the evening meal with him and he with me. 21*To the one that conquers I will grant to sit down with me on my throne, even as I conquered and sat down with my Father on his throne

We see what the throne of God is in Isaiah 66:66 This is what Jehovah has said: “The heavens are my throne, and the earth is my footstool. Where, then, is the house that YOU people can build for me, and where, then, is the place as a resting-place for me?

[Fire Watch]

There are others siting on thrones as promised
Come on Daniel, thats weak and you know it. It is abundantly clear that the ONE throne being talked about in the passage above is God's throne, made evident by Rev 4:2: "And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne." This One is God because the twenty-four elders around the throne address Him as "Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come" (Revelation 4:8).

[DRS]

Come on Daniel, thats weak and you know it. It is abundantly clear that the ONE throne being talked about in the passage above is God's throne, made evident by Rev 4:2: "And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne." This One is God because the twenty-four elders around the throne address Him as "Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come" (Revelation 4:8).

The one here is not Jesus on the throne, he is seen in chapter 5 taking the scroll from the one seated on the throne.

6*And I saw standing in the midst of the throne and of the four living creatures and in the midst of the elders a lamb as though it had been slaughtered, having seven horns and seven eyes, which [eyes] mean the seven spirits of God that have been sent forth into the whole earth. 7*And he went and at once took [it] out of the right hand of the One seated on the throne. 8*And when he took the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, having each one a harp and golden bowls that were full of incense, and the [incense] means the prayers of the holy ones. 9*And they sing a new song, saying: “You are worthy to take the scroll and open its seals, because you were slaughtered and with your blood you bought persons for God out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation, 10*and you made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God, and they are to rule as kings over the earth.

[Fire Watch]

"I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty" (Revelation 1:8). Verses 5-7 make clear that Jesus is the One speaking in verse 8. Also..Jesus is clearly the subject of Revelation 1:11-18. In verse 11, Jesus identified Himself as the Alpha and Omega, the first and the last. In verses 17-18 Jesus said, "I am the first and the last: I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of bell and of death."

Revelation 4:11 tells us the One on the throne is the Creator, and we know Jesus is the Creator (John 1:3; Colossians 1:16). The One on the throne is worthy to receive glory, honor, and power (Revelation 4:11).. we read that the Lamb that was slain (Jesus) is worthy to receive power, riches, wisdom, strength, honor, glory, and blessing (Revelation 5:12). Revelation 20:11-12 tells us the One on the throne is the Judge, and we know Jesus is the Judge of all (John 5:22, 27; Romans 2:16; 14:10-11). We HAVE to conclude that Jesus must be the One on the throne in Revelation 4.

[DRS]

"I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty" (Revelation 1:8). Verses 5-7 make clear that Jesus is the One speaking in verse 8. Also..Jesus is clearly the subject of Revelation 1:11-18. In verse 11, Jesus identified Himself as the Alpha and Omega, the first and the last. In verses 17-18 Jesus said, "I am the first and the last: I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of bell and of death."

Revelation 4:11 tells us the One on the throne is the Creator, and we know Jesus is the Creator (John 1:3; Colossians 1:16). The One on the throne is worthy to receive glory, honor, and power (Revelation 4:11).. we read that the Lamb that was slain (Jesus) is worthy to receive power, riches, wisdom, strength, honor, glory, and blessing (Revelation 5:12). Revelation 20:11-12 tells us the One on the throne is the Judge, and we know Jesus is the Judge of all (John 5:22, 27; Romans 2:16; 14:10-11). We HAVE to conclude that Jesus must be the One on the throne in Revelation 4.

5-7 is John

8 is Jehovah

First and Last as aa title refers to Jesus ressurection

We know all things were created through Jesus, but it is Jehovah who is created with all creation since from Him comes the power to create.

Just as Jesus hears he judges,30*I cannot do a single thing of my own initiative; just as I hear, I judge; and the judgment that I render is righteous, because I seek, not my own will, but the will of him that sent me.

11 there is no identification that you speak of

[Fire Watch]

5-7 is John

8 is Jehovah

First and Last as aa title refers to Jesus ressurection

We know all things were created through Jesus, but it is Jehovah who is created with all creation since from Him comes the power to create.

Just as Jesus hears he judges,30*I cannot do a single thing of my own initiative; just as I hear, I judge; and the judgment that I render is righteous, because I seek, not my own will, but the will of him that sent me.

11 there is no identification that you speak ofIf that's the way you have to read it to reconcile it with your beliefs, that's on you. The context is clear enough regarding who it is that is speaking, and what he is saying.

[DispensationalJim]

Since DRS believes that the kingdom is already here, IMHO he is getting the thrones that will be in the millenial kingdom ON EARTH mixed up with God's throne in Heaven. In my view, when Christ sets up His earthly Kingdom (the 1,000 year reign following the Great Tribulation), each apostle will have a throne, and of course Christ will have His own throne.
• Matt. 19:28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of HIS glory, ye (apostles) also shall sit upon TWELVE THRONES, judging the twelve tribes of ISRAEL.

Once the millenial kingdom is over, I believe the heavenly Kingdom and the earthly kingdom will be reunited and God (Father, Son, and Holy Ghost) will be seated on THEIR throne.

D-JIm

[DRS]

Revelation starts off

1 A revelation by Jesus Christ, which God gave him, to show his slaves the things that must shortly take place. And he sent forth his angel and presented [it] in signs through him to his slave John,

If Jesus was God then this statement is redudant, but if they are seperate people than it makes sense.


4*John to the seven congregations that are in the [district of] Asia:

May YOU have undeserved kindness and peace from “The One who is and who was and who is coming,” and from the seven spirits that are before his throne, 5*and from Jesus Christ, “the Faithful Witness,” “The firstborn from the dead,” and “The Ruler of the kings of the earth.”

To him that loves us and that loosed us from our sins by means of his own blood— 6*and he made us to be a kingdom, priests to his God and Father—yes, to him be the glory and the might forever. Amen.

7*Look! He is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, and those who pierced him; and all the tribes of the earth will beat themselves in grief because of him. Yes, Amen.

Now how you get this is Jesus speaking is beyond me.

Verse shows it is the Almighty speaking, the one who gave the revelation to Jesus. Only one is the Almighty

(Genesis 17:1) When A′bram got to be ninety-nine years old, then Jehovah appeared to A′bram and said to him: “I am God Almighty. Walk before me and prove yourself faultless.



(Exodus 6:3) And I used to appear to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob as God Almighty, but as respects my name Jehovah I did not make myself known to them.

[DRS]

Since DRS believes that the kingdom is already here, IMHO he is getting the thrones that will be in the millenial kingdom ON EARTH mixed up with God's throne in Heaven. In my view, when Christ sets up His earthly Kingdom (the 1,000 year reign following the Great Tribulation), each apostle will have a throne, and of course Christ will have His own throne.
• Matt. 19:28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of HIS glory, ye (apostles) also shall sit upon TWELVE THRONES, judging the twelve tribes of ISRAEL.

Once the millenial kingdom is over, I believe the heavenly Kingdom and the earthly kingdom will be reunited and God (Father, Son, and Holy Ghost) will be seated on THEIR throne.

D-JIm

Do you deny the signs of what Jesus said would be the signs of his prescence?

[Fire Watch]

Revelation starts off

1 A revelation by Jesus Christ, which God gave him, to show his slaves the things that must shortly take place. And he sent forth his angel and presented [it] in signs through him to his slave John,

If Jesus was God then this statement is redudant, but if they are seperate people than it makes sense.


4*John to the seven congregations that are in the [district of] Asia:

May YOU have undeserved kindness and peace from “The One who is and who was and who is coming,” and from the seven spirits that are before his throne, 5*and from Jesus Christ, “the Faithful Witness,” “The firstborn from the dead,” and “The Ruler of the kings of the earth.”

To him that loves us and that loosed us from our sins by means of his own blood— 6*and he made us to be a kingdom, priests to his God and Father—yes, to him be the glory and the might forever. Amen.

7*Look! He is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, and those who pierced him; and all the tribes of the earth will beat themselves in grief because of him. Yes, Amen.

Now how you get this is Jesus speaking is beyond me.

Verse shows it is the Almighty speaking, the one who gave the revelation to Jesus. Only one is the Almighty

(Genesis 17:1) When A′bram got to be ninety-nine years old, then Jehovah appeared to A′bram and said to him: “I am God Almighty. Walk before me and prove yourself faultless.



(Exodus 6:3) And I used to appear to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob as God Almighty, but as respects my name Jehovah I did not make myself known to them.

Daniel, what translation are you using here?

[DRS]

Daniel, what translation are you using here?

NWT would rather the NIV or NASB or another?

[Fire Watch]

Daniel, what translation are you using here?

1 A revelation by Jesus Christ, which God gave him, to show his slaves the things that must shortly take place. And he sent forth his angel and presented in signs through him to his slave John,

The translation you use is in error and changes the context.

1The Revelation [I]of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

It's the Revelation OF Jesus, given by God, to John. Not a Revelation BY Jesus.

Now how you get this is Jesus speaking is beyond me.

By reading it IN context.

8I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

Ok..the Almighty is speaking here..let's read on.

10I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,

11Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last:

ok..who was it speaking here..

12And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks;


13And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.

Obviously Jesus.

17And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:
18I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

Yep, without a doubt.

[DRS]

You still have God giving it to Jesus.

I notice you skipped verses, 9 shows John now speaking, then it shows Jesus. There are 4 speakers throughout the Revelation
God,Jesus, the angel and John

9*I John, YOUR brother and a sharer with YOU in the tribulation and kingdom and endurance in company with Jesus, came to be in the isle that is called Pat′mos for speaking about God and bearing witness to Jesus. 10*By inspiration I came to be in the Lord’s day, and I heard behind me a strong voice like that of a trumpet, 11*saying: “What you see write in a scroll and send it to the seven congregations, in Eph′e·sus and in Smyr′na and in Per′ga·mum and in Thy·a·ti′ra and in Sar′dis and in Philadelphia and in La·o·di·ce′a

[Fire Watch]

You still have God giving it to Jesus.
NO you DONT.
1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him(John!!!!!!!!), to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

It's the Revelation OF Jesus, given by God to John. Not a Revelation BY Jesus.

[DRS]

NO you DONT.
1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him(John!!!!!!!!), to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

It's the Revelation OF Jesus, given by God to John. Not a Revelation BY Jesus.

The him is not John, since John is mentioned at the end, the one getting from the angel, who got it from Jesus who got it from God.

[Tucson Jim]

If your way of rebuttal is to say 'I disagree' that argument 'won't hold shucks'.

The rebuttals have already been made, from scripture, numerous times. If you simply take the time to read the thread, you will see what I mean.

My "disagreement" was with your suggestion that the post was worth sharing again. It wasn't.

It just restates some points repeatedly made by others here who, like your friend, apparently cannot, or will not even attempt to, understand the trinity.

You have the right to disagree, but don't expect everyone to agree with you.

Oh, gee, thanks for that. Silly me - always thinking everyone agrees with me . . .

We all have a right to our own opinion and God the righteous judge will judge each of us, not you.

Thanks again for setting me straight on that.

And all this time I thought I was the judge of all.

We can and will rehash old arguments, and new arguments as much as we please. I really don't care how many arguments presented that you have rebutted. Your rebuttals don't mean anything to me.

Based on the fact that you thought your friends post was worth re-posting, I seriously doubt you have even read the rebuttals of these elementary arguments. You ought to try it. You might expand your intellectual and theological horizons.

My friend said that she was not a part of any denomination, and you passed judgement and bet that she was a liar.

Re-read my post, this time with a little less emotion, and you will see I said no such thing. I was simply commenting on the fact that most who disbelieve the trinity like to distinguish themselves from "the denominations", yet they themselves belong to churches, hence their distinction is arbitrary.

If this rebuttal is a sample of your other rebuttals, that won't hold shucks. Sounds like your way of rebuttal is to say 'we have already hashed that out', and you know what that argument won't do. :D

Well Semi, if you would actually read through the thread, you would see numerous examples of my rebuttals, as well as those of many others on this thread, pertaining to your friends post.

[Tucson Jim]

So the apostle is suggesting that Jesus can't be God because man saw jesus .

No. You and a few others are making that suggestion.

If jesus was God why did the apostle say that?

So much for the apostles believing in the doctrine of the trinity.

The point of the verse is that since God is invisible, but Christians aren't, we are to show God to the world through our lives.

The Apostles could not have believed in the doctrine of the Trinity since it wasn't officially formulated until much later.

But they definitely knew Jesus is God -

1. They called Him "God"

"In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God (John 1:1)

"Thomas said to Him (Jesus) "My Lord and my God" (John 20:28)

"Theirs are the patriarchs, and from them is traced the human ancestry of Christ, who is God over all . . ." (Romans 9:5).

"Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped." (Phil 2:6-7)

" . . . while we wait for the blessed hope - the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ. (Titus 2:13)

"Simon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, to those who through the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ . . ." (2 Peter 1:1)

2. They said He had the attributes of God -

Jesus is eternal

a. "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God" (John 1:1-2).

b. "And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me ...I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last" (Rev 22:12-13; compare with Isaiah 44:6 and Rev. 1:8).

Jesus is omniscient

"...Lord, thou knowest all things, thou knowest that I love thee" (John 21:17).

Jesus is omnipotent

a. "All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made" (John 1:3).

b. "For by him were all things created, that are in heaven and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers; all things were created by him and for him" (Col. 1:16).

Jesus is sinless

a. "For He hath made Him to be sin for us, Who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in Him" (2 Corinthians 5:21).

[Tucson Jim]

Yeah you have you just choose to use verbiage that don't appear in the scriptures to explain it away.

If you say so.

[Tucson Jim]

Good point DRS.

:rolleyes:

[Tucson Jim]

God continues to exist in two ways (in the incarnation, and apart from the incarnation), and will continue to exist this way for eternity. This is not to say that we are going to see the Father and see Jesus in heaven. The Bible is clear that no man can see God (John 1:18; I Timothy 6:16; I John 4:12), which means we cannot see God in His essence. Jesus, however, is the image of the invisible God (II Corinthians 4:4; Colossians 1:15; Hebrews 1:3). He is God's essence made visible to man. Jesus is the only God we will ever see. He is the one who is on the throne (Revelation 22:3).

Paul said Jesus "is the image of the invisible God" (Colossians 1:15). The Greek word translated "image" is eikon, referring to a representation of something, and denoting the manifestation of a substance. Notice that Paul contrasted Jesus' image to that of the invisible God. The point Paul was trying to get across to his readers was that Jesus is the visible representation of God to man. That is why Jesus could say, "he that has seen Me has seen the Father" (John 14:9; also 12:45).

The author of Hebrews said Jesus is the "express image of his [God's] person" (1:3). "Express image" is from the Greek word charakter, meaning to impress upon, or stamp. It denotes an engravement from a tool, which impresses an image into that which is being engraved. This impression, then, is a characteristic of the instrument used to do produce it. What is produced corresponds precisely with the instrument.

The Greek word translated "person" is hypostasis. Although rendered as "person," it is more properly understood as essence of being, or the substance of a thing. Jesus, therefore, is not just a representation of God, but is the very visible impression of God's invisible substance and essence. He is God's very nature expressed in humanity. To say it another way, He is the corresponding engravement of God's essence of being, in human form.

The Scriptures are very clear in their portrayal of Jesus as being both man and God. He plays the role of the divine and of the human—two roles which had been heretofore worlds apart, calling for two different actors, and requiring two different stages. In Jesus, however, the infinite Spirit united with finite humanity to become the Son of God. These two natures seem mutually exclusive. Deity is infinite in knowledge, power, and presence. Humanity is limited in knowledge, power, and presence.

The way in which we can differentiate but not separate Christ's two natures may be compared to the way in which Paul differentiated between our inner and outer man. He said, "Though our outward man perish yet the inward man is renewed day by day" (II Corinthians 4:16). In another place he noted, "For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: but I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members" (Romans 7:22-23). Both of these references make a distinction between our spirit-man and our fleshly-man, yet such a distinction was never intended to teach that we are two people. In a similar way we can attribute the cause of certain activities or sayings of Christ to one of His natures, but we cannot say that these only occur in one nature to the exclusion of the other because of the fact that Christ is one whole unified person. Whatever He does He does as God unified to humanity.

Thank you Rick. That was an excellent explanation. Clear, concise yet thorough. You are an excellent teacher.

[Tucson Jim]

NO you DONT.
1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him(John!!!!!!!!), to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

It's the Revelation OF Jesus, given by God to John. Not a Revelation BY Jesus.

Easy, big fella! He's just repeating what he's been taught. :)

[Fire Watch]

Thank you Rick. That was an excellent explanation. Clear, concise yet thorough. You are an excellent teacher.
Haha..be careful you aren't labeled a heretic for agreeing with this Oneness poster.

[Angryamerican]

You can try to debate semantics all you want, but the Book of Revelation makes it abundantly clear that there is one throne, the one that sits on that throne is Jesus, and the one that sits upon that throne is God.

When both king and queen sit on the throne are they one being?

And that can't be the case with God and his son?

So more than one can sit on a throne.

[Fire Watch]

When both king and queen sit on the throne are they one being?

And that can't be the case with God and his son?

So more than one can sit on a throne.
Nice try, but no. If there are two people, there necessarily has to be two thrones..otherwise one of their laps will get tired.

[Angryamerican]

Come on Daniel, thats weak and you know it. It is abundantly clear that the ONE throne being talked about in the passage above is God's throne, made evident by Rev 4:2: "And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne." This One is God because the twenty-four elders around the throne address Him as "Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come" (Revelation 4:8).

Sounds like God has a very big throne. what is weak is your theory nice try though.

[Fire Watch]

Sounds like God has a very big throne. what is weak is your theory nice try though.
You're just being silly now...what..did God "scooch" over so Jesus could fit in there also? Try reading the text!

And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne."

[Angryamerican]

If that's the way you have to read it to reconcile it with your beliefs, that's on you. The context is clear enough regarding who it is that is speaking, and what he is saying.

I read it as John speaks Jesus speaks and the angel speaks and God speaks in the book of revelation and thats how confusion sets in. If you don't know who is speaking you will not get to the truth.

[Angryamerican]

NO you DONT.
1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him(John!!!!!!!!), to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

It's the Revelation OF Jesus, given by God to John. Not a Revelation BY Jesus.

John has servants?

[Fire Watch]

Oh good grief.

[Angryamerican]

No. You and a few others are making that suggestion.



The point of the verse is that since God is invisible, but Christians aren't, we are to show God to the world through our lives.

The Apostles could not have believed in the doctrine of the Trinity since it wasn't officially formulated until much later.

But they definitely knew Jesus is God -

1. They called Him "God"

"In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God (John 1:1)

"Thomas said to Him (Jesus) "My Lord and my God" (John 20:28)

"Theirs are the patriarchs, and from them is traced the human ancestry of Christ, who is God over all . . ." (Romans 9:5).

"Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped." (Phil 2:6-7)

" . . . while we wait for the blessed hope - the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ. (Titus 2:13)

"Simon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, to those who through the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ . . ." (2 Peter 1:1)

2. They said He had the attributes of God -

Jesus is eternal

a. "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God" (John 1:1-2).

b. "And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me ...I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last" (Rev 22:12-13; compare with Isaiah 44:6 and Rev. 1:8).

Jesus is omniscient

"...Lord, thou knowest all things, thou knowest that I love thee" (John 21:17).

Jesus is omnipotent

a. "All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made" (John 1:3).

b. "For by him were all things created, that are in heaven and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers; all things were created by him and for him" (Col. 1:16).

Jesus is sinless

a. "For He hath made Him to be sin for us, Who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in Him" (2 Corinthians 5:21).

So Jesus didn't teach the apostles the truth about God?

[Angryamerican]

If you say so.

Than show us incarnate and God the son and the many other explanations you use to explain your doctrine from the scriptures.

[Angryamerican]

:rolleyes:

Yeah you seem to have problems with good points or is it the truth you have a problem with.

[Angryamerican]

Nice try, but no. If there are two people, there necessarily has to be two thrones..otherwise one of their laps will get tired.

So you define what and how big and how many seats there are on a throne?

[Angryamerican]

You're just being silly now...what..did God "scooch" over so Jesus could fit in there also? Try reading the text!

And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne."

Did you not read what DRS posted those were not earthly thrones like jim tried suggesting.

[Fire Watch]

Than show us incarnate... from the scriptures.
I'm your huckleberry..

I Timothy 3:16: "God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory" How and when did all of this happen? In Jesus Christ.

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God… And the Word was made flesh…" (John 1:1, 14). Literally, the Word (God) was tabernacled or tented in flesh. When did God tabernacle or robe Himself in flesh? In Jesus Christ. Both verses of Scripture prove that Jesus is God - that He is God manifest (revealed, made known, made evident, displayed, shown) in flesh.

Paul said Jesus "is the image of the invisible God" (Colossians 1:15). The Greek word translated "image" is eikon, referring to a representation of something, and denoting the manifestation of a substance. Notice that Paul contrasted Jesus' image to that of the invisible God. The point Paul was trying to get across to his readers was that Jesus is the visible representation of God to man. That is why Jesus could say, "he that has seen Me has seen the Father" (John 14:9; 12:45).

The author of Hebrews said Jesus is the "express image of his [God's] person" (1:3). "Express image" is from the Greek word charakter, meaning to impress upon, or stamp. It denotes an engravement from a tool, which impresses an image into that which is being engraved. This impression, then, is a characteristic of the instrument used to do produce it. What is produced corresponds precisely with the instrument.

The Greek word translated "person" is hypostasis. Although rendered as "person," it is more properly understood as essence of being, or the substance of a thing. Jesus, therefore, is not just a representation of God, but is the very visible impression of God's invisible substance and essence. He is God's very nature expressed in humanity. To say it another way, He is the corresponding engravement of God's essence of being, in human form.

[Fire Watch]

So you define what and how big and how many seats there are on a throne?
Nope, scripture does in this instance.

And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne."

[Angryamerican]

I'm your huckleberry..

I Timothy 3:16: "God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory" How and when did all of this happen? In Jesus Christ.

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God… And the Word was made flesh…" (John 1:1, 14). Literally, the Word (God) was tabernacled or tented in flesh. When did God tabernacle or robe Himself in flesh? In Jesus Christ. Both verses of Scripture prove that Jesus is God - that He is God manifest (revealed, made known, made evident, displayed, shown) in flesh.

Paul said Jesus "is the image of the invisible God" (Colossians 1:15). The Greek word translated "image" is eikon, referring to a representation of something, and denoting the manifestation of a substance. Notice that Paul contrasted Jesus' image to that of the invisible God. The point Paul was trying to get across to his readers was that Jesus is the visible representation of God to man. That is why Jesus could say, "he that has seen Me has seen the Father" (John 14:9; 12:45).

The author of Hebrews said Jesus is the "express image of his [God's] person" (1:3). "Express image" is from the Greek word charakter, meaning to impress upon, or stamp. It denotes an engravement from a tool, which impresses an image into that which is being engraved. This impression, then, is a characteristic of the instrument used to do produce it. What is produced corresponds precisely with the instrument.

The Greek word translated "person" is hypostasis. Although rendered as "person," it is more properly understood as essence of being, or the substance of a thing. Jesus, therefore, is not just a representation of God, but is the very visible impression of God's invisible substance and essence. He is God's very nature expressed in humanity. To say it another way, He is the corresponding engravement of God's essence of being, in human form.

Ok so we share a like for the same movie.

[Semi-Sweet]

The Apostles could not have believed in the doctrine of the Trinity since it wasn't officially formulated until much later.

Jhn 16:13 "Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into ALL truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, [that] shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come." This was realized on Pentecost when the Spirit was poured out.

So Jesus said that the Spirit of truth would guide them into all truth. So this means that if the Apostles didn't know anything about a so-called 'trinity,' [since they knew ALL truth] it is a man-made made-up piece of business. Amazing! :dance:

[Angryamerican]

Nope, scripture does in this instance.

And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne."

Funny thing is it doesn't say how big or how many seats are on that throne but we read at other times others will sit on that throne.

[Angryamerican]

Jhn 16:13 "Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into ALL truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, [that] shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come." This was realized on Pentecost when the Spirit was poured out.

So Jesus said that the Spirit of truth would guide them into all truth. So this means that if the Apostles didn't know anything about a so-called 'trinity,' [since they knew ALL truth] it is a man-made made-up piece of business. Amazing! :dance:

Thats what we have been trying to show them.

[Fire Watch]

Funny thing is it doesn't say how big or how many seats are on that throne but we read at other times others will sit on that throne.
No we DO NOT.

[10thAmendment]

The Trinity is not a biblical term, but coined by ancient church historian Tertullian.
http://www.tertullian.org/ (Site appears in Google but does not appear to be working at the time of this post.)
Given Romans 14, God bless you if you believe in the Trinity. God bless you if you don't believe in the Trinity.

[Tucson Jim]

So Jesus didn't teach the apostles the truth about God?

Obviously, he did.

[Tucson Jim]

Than show us incarnate and God the son and the many other explanations you use to explain your doctrine from the scriptures.

I already have and so have many others and you know it.

Are you just trying to jerk our chain?

[Tucson Jim]

Yeah you seem to have problems with good points or is it the truth you have a problem with.

I have no problems with good points.

Problem is, you rarely make any.

[Tucson Jim]

Jhn 16:13 "Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into ALL truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, [that] shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come." This was realized on Pentecost when the Spirit was poured out.

So Jesus said that the Spirit of truth would guide them into all truth. So this means that if the Apostles didn't know anything about a so-called 'trinity,' [since they knew ALL truth] it is a man-made made-up piece of business. Amazing! :dance:

Oh brother . . . yes, 'amazing", I agree.

I said the doctrine of the trinity wasn't formulated until years later.

Do you know what a doctrine is Semi? It is a systematic formulation of a belief or set of beliefs.

I then went on to show you how the basic beliefs which underlie that doctrine were taught by the Apostles.

But I guess you missed all that in your desperation trying to think of some way around the fact that the Apostles knew and taught that Jesus is God.

[Tucson Jim]

Thats what we have been trying to show them.

Well then, I guess I gave you too much credit . . .

[Semi-Sweet]

The Trinity is not a biblical term, but coined by ancient church historian Tertullian.
http://www.tertullian.org/ (Site appears in Google but does not appear to be working at the time of this post.)
Given Romans 14, God bless you if you believe in the Trinity. God bless you if you don't believe in the Trinity.


Romans 14 is good thanks. Some here find it hard to disagree without being disagreeable.

Rom 14:8 "For whether we live, we live unto the Lord; and whether we die, we die unto the Lord: whether we live therefore, or die, we are the Lord's."

Rom 14:10 "But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ."

God introduced his love to us, and us to his love. "But God shows [RSV; commendeth: KJV, ASV] his love for us in that while we were yet sinners Christ died for us" [Rom. 5:8]. Shows and commendeth are translations of a word which means to introduce one person to another [Vine]. God's love has been made known through a Person who was a revelation of his Father. God introduced his love through Jesus and we are filled with it by the Holy Spirit, "because God's love has been poured into our hearts through the Holy Spirit which has been given to us" vs 5.

Such a concept of divinity dying for the vilest of humanity and entering human hearts was not conceived in the minds of men. This unique quality of God was revealed.

God introduces us to his love by introducing us to his Son, and likewise our love is introduced to God by our acceptance of his Son. Our response and relationship is an expression of our love engendered by his prior love for us.

John 8:23. . .Jesus said, "You are from below, I am from above; you are of this world, I am not of this world. I told you that you would die in your sins, for you will die in your sins unless you believe that I am he. They said to him, "Who are you?" Jesus said to them, "Why do I speak to you at all?" "I have much to say about you and much to condemn, but the one who sent me is true, and I declare to the world what I have heard from him." They did not understand that he was speaking to them about the Father. So Jesus said, "When you have lifted up the Son of Man, then you will realize that I am he, and that I do nothing on my own, but I speak these things as the Father instructed me. And the one who sent me is with me; he has not left me alone, for I always do what is pleasing to him." . . . . . "you will die in your sins, unless you believe that I am he."
Unless we believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, how can we expect Him to save us?

Let Brotherly Love Begin and continue. God bless you all.

I'm outta' here. . . . . . . . .:D

[Tucson Jim]

Haha..be careful you aren't labeled a heretic for agreeing with this Oneness poster.

It doesn't seem to me that Oneness and Trinitarianism are that far apart.

Yes, I know there are differences, but it seems to me we have more in common than different.

I'll take my chances with that heretic label! ;)

[Tucson Jim]

The Trinity is not a biblical term, but coined by ancient church historian Tertullian.

Yes, we know. The point is pretty much irrelevant, however, as we have shown in detail in this thread.

The fundamental beliefs that led to the doctrine of the Trinity and the use of the term, appear in the Bible, were believed and taught by the Apostles and the early church fathers. (See God in Three Persons by Calvin Beisner)


http://www.tertullian.org/ (Site appears in Google but does not appear to be working at the time of this post.)
Given Romans 14, God bless you if you believe in the Trinity. God bless you if you don't believe in the Trinity.

I see nothing in Romans 14 that encourages compromising the Gospel for the sake of "unity". Especially considering the fact that the author of Romans called those "brothers" who introduced false teachings into the church "accursed"!

[drmilo]

Does it?

The bible also calls angels, judges Moses and Paul god does it mean they are Almighty God?

No matter how many times you say this, DRS, it doesn't make it true.

Angels are called God, it seems to me, only when the person who sees the angel mistakens that Angel for God.

The judges were called God as a metaphor to describe their authority.

Moses was called God by God as a metaphor to describe the power he would weild over Pharoah.

Paul was called God by pagan barbarians who thought he could only be "a god" since he survived a poisionous viper bite.

None of these were called God by the Jewish people as a term for "one who represents Jehovah." Show me one verse where Moses was called God by the Jews. Show me one verse where the judges were called God by the Jews.

None of the above were referenced as "God" where the term means "one who represents Jehovah." That is your Watchtower's way of explaining away the fact that Jesus was called God in a titular use of the word.

[drmilo]

Yeah you have you just choose to use verbiage that don't appear in the scriptures to explain it away.

When you say "verbiage" that don't appear in scripture, do you mean that such words that aren't in the scripture are not valid when talking about scripture?

If so, do you read the Bible? Because the word "Bible" is not in the scripture, therefore we must not have any Bibles.

[DRS]

No matter how many times you say this, DRS, it doesn't make it true.

Angels are called God, it seems to me, only when the person who sees the angel mistakens that Angel for God.

The judges were called God as a metaphor to describe their authority.

Moses was called God by God as a metaphor to describe the power he would weild over Pharoah.

Paul was called God by pagan barbarians who thought he could only be "a god" since he survived a poisionous viper bite.

None of these were called God by the Jewish people as a term for "one who represents Jehovah." Show me one verse where Moses was called God by the Jews. Show me one verse where the judges were called God by the Jews.

None of the above were referenced as "God" where the term means "one who represents Jehovah." That is your Watchtower's way of explaining away the fact that Jesus was called God in a titular use of the word.

Seems to me you need to discreit or try to say the scriptures are mistaken in order to prove your trinity doctrine.

But even your explination for Jesus just goes to show Jesus is called god as a metaphor to describe the power he would wield in connection with mankind, as Jesus said all authority has been given to me. Now my God does not recieve authority from anyone, He gives it.

[Tucson Jim]

Seems to me you need to discreit or try to say the scriptures are mistaken in order to prove your trinity doctrine.

I have no idea how you got that from his post! Incredible . . .

But even your explination for Jesus just goes to show Jesus is called god as a metaphor to describe the power he would wield in connection with mankind, as Jesus said all authority has been given to me. Now my God does not recieve authority from anyone, He gives it.

As usual, you are stuck in the OT view of God, not understanding the further revelations of His nature given in the NT.

Jesus is not called "God" as a metaphor - He is called God because He is God, as demonstrated by His possession of the attributes of God, of His being worshiped by "every creature" in Revelation, etc., in contrast to the others, which ARE used metaphorically.

[DRS]

You know why i refer to the OT, because that is what the apostles used to prove who Jesus, and no where in the OT does it say God would come as God said no man may see my face and live.

He was God's servant, the prophet God raised up.

[DispensationalJim]

A repeat especially for DRS...
************************************************** ***********

JESUS IN THE OLD TESTAMENT

THE GODHEAD OF THE NEW TESTAMENT IS ALSO IN THE OLD TESTAMENT:
• Gen. 1:26 And God said, Let **US** make man in our image, after our likeness:
• Gen. 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as **ONE OF US**, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
• Gen. 11:6 And the LORD said, ... 7 Go to, let **US** go down, and there confound their language, that they may not understand one another’s speech.
• Psa. 2:7 I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art **MY SON**; this day have I begotten thee. ... 12 Kiss the **SON**, lest he be angry, ... ** Blessed are all they that put their trust in HIM**.
• Is. 6:8 Also I heard the voice of the Lord, saying, Whom shall I send, and who will go for **US**?

THE CHARACTERISTICS OF GOD THE FATHER ATTRIBUTED TO GOD THE SON

WE KNOW THAT JESUS IS THE ONE AND ONLY LORD, SAVIOUR, AND REDEEMER IN THE NEW TESTAMENT, SO HE MUST ALSO BE THE ONE AND ONLY LORD, SAVIOUR, AND REDEEMER IN THE OLD TESTAMENT AS THESE VERSES SHOW:
• Is. 43:1 But now thus saith the LORD that **CREATED THEE**, O Jacob, and he that **FORMED THEE**, O Israel, Fear not: for I have **REDEEMED** thee, I have called thee by thy name; thou art mine. ...3 For I am the LORD thy God, the Holy One of Israel, thy **SAVIOUR**: ... 11 I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.
Is. 47:4 As for our **REDEEMER**, the LORD of hosts is his name, the Holy One of Israel.
• Is. 48:16 Come ye near unto me, hear ye this; I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, there am I: and now the Lord GOD, AND HIS Spirit, hath sent **ME**. 17 Thus saith the LORD, thy **REDEEMER**, the Holy One of Israel; I am the LORD thy God which teacheth thee to profit, which leadeth thee by the way that thou shouldest go.
• Is. 49:7 Thus saith the LORD, the Redeemer of Israel, AND **HIS Holy One**, to him whom man despiseth, to him whom the nation abhorreth, to a servant of rulers, Kings shall see and arise, princes also shall worship, because of the LORD that is faithful, AND **THE Holy One of Israel**, and he shall choose thee. ... 26 And I will feed them that oppress thee with their own flesh; and they shall be drunken with their own blood, as with sweet wine: and all flesh shall know that I the LORD am **THY SAVIOUR AND THY REDEEMER**, the **MIGHTY ONE OF JACOB**.
• Is. 59:20 And the **REDEEMER** shall come to Zion, and unto them that turn from transgression in Jacob, saith the LORD.
• Is. 60:9 ... unto the name of the LORD thy God, AND and to **THE Holy One** of Israel, because he hath glorified thee. ... 16 ... and thou shalt know that I the LORD am thy **SAVIOUR AND THY REDEEMER**, the **MIGHTY ONE** of Jacob.

WE KNOW THAT JESUS CHRIST IS THE ONE AND ONLY "KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS" IN THE NT. THERE IS NO PROPHECY IN THE BIBLE OF GOD THE FATHER RETURNING TO THE EARTH UNTIL AFTER THE MILLENIAL REIGN OF THE CHRIST IS OVER. THEREFORE, JESUS CHRIST MUST BE THE ONE AND ONLY RETURNING KING:
• Is. 44:6 Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, AND HIS **REDEEMER** the LORD of hosts; **I am the first, and I am the last**; and beside me there is no God. ... 24 Thus saith the LORD, thy **REDEEMER**, and **he that formed thee from the womb**, I am the LORD that **maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth BY MYSELF**;
• Zech. 14:3 Then shall the LORD **GO FORTH**, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle. 4 And **HIS FEET SHALL STAND** in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south. 5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God **SHALL COME**, and all the saints with thee. 9 And the LORD shall be **KING** over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one. ... 16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the **KING**, the LORD of hosts... 17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the **KING**, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.
• Mic. 5:2 But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, ... out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be **RULER** in Israel; whose goings forth have been **FROM OF OLD, FROM EVERLASTING**.
• Zech. 8:3 Thus saith the LORD; I am **RETURNED** unto Zion, and will **DWELL** in the midst of Jerusalem: and Jerusalem shall be called a city of truth; and the mountain of the LORD of hosts the holy mountain. ... 8 And I will bring them, and they shall dwell in the midst of Jerusalem: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God, in truth and in righteousness.
• Zech. 9:9 Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy **King** cometh unto thee: he is just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ass, and upon a colt the foal of an ass. 14 And the LORD shall be seen over them, and his arrow shall go forth as the lightning: and the Lord GOD shall **BLOW THE TRUMPET**, and shall go with whirlwinds of the south.
• Mal. 4:1 For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch. 2 But unto you that fear my name shall the **Sun of righteousness** arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.

IN THE NT, JESUS CHRIST IS THE CREATOR, THEREFORE HE MUST ALSO BE THE CREATOR OF THE OT
• Is. 45:5 I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: ... 6 That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else. 7 ** I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things**. ... 11 Thus saith the LORD, the Holy One of Israel, **AND HIS MAKER**, ... 15 Verily thou art a God that hidest thyself, O God of Israel, the **Saviour**. ... 21 ... who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a **Saviour**; there is none beside me.
• Is. 54:5 For thy **Maker** is thine husband; the LORD of hosts is his name; and thy Redeemer the Holy One of Israel; The God of the whole earth shall he be called. ... 5 Behold, thou shalt call a nation that thou knowest not, and nations that knew not thee shall run unto thee because of the LORD thy God, AND for **THE Holy One** of Israel; for he hath glorified thee.
• Zech. 12:1 The burden of the word of the LORD for Israel, saith the LORD, which **stretcheth forth the heavens, and layeth the foundation of the earth, and formeth the spirit of man within him**.... 9 And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem. 10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look **UPON ME WHOM THEY HAVE PIERCED**, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his **ONLY SON**,...

IN THE NT, JESUS IS THE JUDGE. THEREFORE HE MUST ALSO BE THE JUDGE OF THE OT.
• Is. 3:13 The LORD standeth up to plead, and **STANDETH TO JUDGE** the people.

IN THE NT, JESUS IS IMMANUEL (GOD WITH US). THEREFORE, HE IS OBVIOUSLY IMMANUEL IN THE OT.
• Is. 7:14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name **Immanuel**.

IN THE NT, JESUS CHRIST IS THE FIRST AND THE LAST/ALPHA AND OMEGA, BEGINNING AND THE END. THEREFORE, HE MUST BE THE SAME IN THE OT.
• Is. 41:4 Who hath wrought and done it, calling the generations from the beginning? I the LORD, the **first, and with the last; I am he**

JESUS IS GOD AND EVERLASTING.
• Is. 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a **SON** is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, **THE MIGHTY GOD**, The **EVERLASTING** Father, The Prince of Peace.
• Mic. 5:2 But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet OUT OF THEE shall **HE** come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, FROM EVERLASTING.

IN THE OT, JESUS IS THE LORD AND A MIGHTY MAN.
• Is. 42:1 Behold **my servant**, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth **judgment** to the Gentiles. ... 13 The LORD shall go forth **AS A MIGHTY MAN**, ...

************************************************** ********

DispensationalJim

[Harmonious]

Jim, you know that I respect you. However, Jesus wasn't anywhere in the OT.

[Tucson Jim]

You know why i refer to the OT, because that is what the apostles used to prove who Jesus,

So you say, but it strikes me as odd that you constantly refer to the OT in talking about the nature of Christ, when the NT revelation of Christ is newer and far more complete.

Why would you not go to the newer, more complete revelation of Christ to try to understand His nature?

The apostles had an excuse - they only had the OT.

You have no such excuse . . .

and no where in the OT does it say God would come as God said no man may see my face and live.

This is why you need to go to the newer revelation, to see how it all ends. And in the end, God Himself became a man to save us.

He was God's servant, the prophet God raised up.

He became a servant for our sakes.

But he is still God, as the NT amply demonstrates.

[Tucson Jim]

A repeat especially for DRS...
************************************************** ***********

JESUS IN THE OLD TESTAMENT

THE GODHEAD OF THE NEW TESTAMENT IS ALSO IN THE OLD TESTAMENT:
• Gen. 1:26 And God said, Let **US** make man in our image, after our likeness:
• Gen. 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as **ONE OF US**, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
• Gen. 11:6 And the LORD said, ... 7 Go to, let **US** go down, and there confound their language, that they may not understand one another’s speech.
• Psa. 2:7 I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art **MY SON**; this day have I begotten thee. ... 12 Kiss the **SON**, lest he be angry, ... ** Blessed are all they that put their trust in HIM**.
• Is. 6:8 Also I heard the voice of the Lord, saying, Whom shall I send, and who will go for **US**?

THE CHARACTERISTICS OF GOD THE FATHER ATTRIBUTED TO GOD THE SON

WE KNOW THAT JESUS IS THE ONE AND ONLY LORD, SAVIOUR, AND REDEEMER IN THE NEW TESTAMENT, SO HE MUST ALSO BE THE ONE AND ONLY LORD, SAVIOUR, AND REDEEMER IN THE OLD TESTAMENT AS THESE VERSES SHOW:
• Is. 43:1 But now thus saith the LORD that **CREATED THEE**, O Jacob, and he that **FORMED THEE**, O Israel, Fear not: for I have **REDEEMED** thee, I have called thee by thy name; thou art mine. ...3 For I am the LORD thy God, the Holy One of Israel, thy **SAVIOUR**: ... 11 I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.
Is. 47:4 As for our **REDEEMER**, the LORD of hosts is his name, the Holy One of Israel.
• Is. 48:16 Come ye near unto me, hear ye this; I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, there am I: and now the Lord GOD, AND HIS Spirit, hath sent **ME**. 17 Thus saith the LORD, thy **REDEEMER**, the Holy One of Israel; I am the LORD thy God which teacheth thee to profit, which leadeth thee by the way that thou shouldest go.
• Is. 49:7 Thus saith the LORD, the Redeemer of Israel, AND **HIS Holy One**, to him whom man despiseth, to him whom the nation abhorreth, to a servant of rulers, Kings shall see and arise, princes also shall worship, because of the LORD that is faithful, AND **THE Holy One of Israel**, and he shall choose thee. ... 26 And I will feed them that oppress thee with their own flesh; and they shall be drunken with their own blood, as with sweet wine: and all flesh shall know that I the LORD am **THY SAVIOUR AND THY REDEEMER**, the **MIGHTY ONE OF JACOB**.
• Is. 59:20 And the **REDEEMER** shall come to Zion, and unto them that turn from transgression in Jacob, saith the LORD.
• Is. 60:9 ... unto the name of the LORD thy God, AND and to **THE Holy One** of Israel, because he hath glorified thee. ... 16 ... and thou shalt know that I the LORD am thy **SAVIOUR AND THY REDEEMER**, the **MIGHTY ONE** of Jacob.

WE KNOW THAT JESUS CHRIST IS THE ONE AND ONLY "KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS" IN THE NT. THERE IS NO PROPHECY IN THE BIBLE OF GOD THE FATHER RETURNING TO THE EARTH UNTIL AFTER THE MILLENIAL REIGN OF THE CHRIST IS OVER. THEREFORE, JESUS CHRIST MUST BE THE ONE AND ONLY RETURNING KING:
• Is. 44:6 Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, AND HIS **REDEEMER** the LORD of hosts; **I am the first, and I am the last**; and beside me there is no God. ... 24 Thus saith the LORD, thy **REDEEMER**, and **he that formed thee from the womb**, I am the LORD that **maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth BY MYSELF**;
• Zech. 14:3 Then shall the LORD **GO FORTH**, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle. 4 And **HIS FEET SHALL STAND** in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south. 5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God **SHALL COME**, and all the saints with thee. 9 And the LORD shall be **KING** over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one. ... 16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the **KING**, the LORD of hosts... 17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the **KING**, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.
• Mic. 5:2 But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, ... out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be **RULER** in Israel; whose goings forth have been **FROM OF OLD, FROM EVERLASTING**.
• Zech. 8:3 Thus saith the LORD; I am **RETURNED** unto Zion, and will **DWELL** in the midst of Jerusalem: and Jerusalem shall be called a city of truth; and the mountain of the LORD of hosts the holy mountain. ... 8 And I will bring them, and they shall dwell in the midst of Jerusalem: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God, in truth and in righteousness.
• Zech. 9:9 Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy **King** cometh unto thee: he is just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ass, and upon a colt the foal of an ass. 14 And the LORD shall be seen over them, and his arrow shall go forth as the lightning: and the Lord GOD shall **BLOW THE TRUMPET**, and shall go with whirlwinds of the south.
• Mal. 4:1 For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch. 2 But unto you that fear my name shall the **Sun of righteousness** arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.

IN THE NT, JESUS CHRIST IS THE CREATOR, THEREFORE HE MUST ALSO BE THE CREATOR OF THE OT
• Is. 45:5 I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: ... 6 That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else. 7 ** I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things**. ... 11 Thus saith the LORD, the Holy One of Israel, **AND HIS MAKER**, ... 15 Verily thou art a God that hidest thyself, O God of Israel, the **Saviour**. ... 21 ... who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a **Saviour**; there is none beside me.
• Is. 54:5 For thy **Maker** is thine husband; the LORD of hosts is his name; and thy Redeemer the Holy One of Israel; The God of the whole earth shall he be called. ... 5 Behold, thou shalt call a nation that thou knowest not, and nations that knew not thee shall run unto thee because of the LORD thy God, AND for **THE Holy One** of Israel; for he hath glorified thee.
• Zech. 12:1 The burden of the word of the LORD for Israel, saith the LORD, which **stretcheth forth the heavens, and layeth the foundation of the earth, and formeth the spirit of man within him**.... 9 And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem. 10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look **UPON ME WHOM THEY HAVE PIERCED**, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his **ONLY SON**,...

IN THE NT, JESUS IS THE JUDGE. THEREFORE HE MUST ALSO BE THE JUDGE OF THE OT.
• Is. 3:13 The LORD standeth up to plead, and **STANDETH TO JUDGE** the people.

IN THE NT, JESUS IS IMMANUEL (GOD WITH US). THEREFORE, HE IS OBVIOUSLY IMMANUEL IN THE OT.
• Is. 7:14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name **Immanuel**.

IN THE NT, JESUS CHRIST IS THE FIRST AND THE LAST/ALPHA AND OMEGA, BEGINNING AND THE END. THEREFORE, HE MUST BE THE SAME IN THE OT.
• Is. 41:4 Who hath wrought and done it, calling the generations from the beginning? I the LORD, the **first, and with the last; I am he**

JESUS IS GOD AND EVERLASTING.
• Is. 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a **SON** is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, **THE MIGHTY GOD**, The **EVERLASTING** Father, The Prince of Peace.
• Mic. 5:2 But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet OUT OF THEE shall **HE** come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, FROM EVERLASTING.

IN THE OT, JESUS IS THE LORD AND A MIGHTY MAN.
• Is. 42:1 Behold **my servant**, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth **judgment** to the Gentiles. ... 13 The LORD shall go forth **AS A MIGHTY MAN**, ...

************************************************** ********

DispensationalJim

Excellent post D-Jim! Another "keeper"!

[Tucson Jim]

A repeat especially for DRS...
************************************************** ***********

JESUS IN THE OLD TESTAMENT

THE GODHEAD OF THE NEW TESTAMENT IS ALSO IN THE OLD TESTAMENT:
• Gen. 1:26 And God said, Let **US** make man in our image, after our likeness:
• Gen. 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as **ONE OF US**, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
• Gen. 11:6 And the LORD said, ... 7 Go to, let **US** go down, and there confound their language, that they may not understand one another’s speech.
• Psa. 2:7 I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art **MY SON**; this day have I begotten thee. ... 12 Kiss the **SON**, lest he be angry, ... ** Blessed are all they that put their trust in HIM**.
• Is. 6:8 Also I heard the voice of the Lord, saying, Whom shall I send, and who will go for **US**?

THE CHARACTERISTICS OF GOD THE FATHER ATTRIBUTED TO GOD THE SON

WE KNOW THAT JESUS IS THE ONE AND ONLY LORD, SAVIOUR, AND REDEEMER IN THE NEW TESTAMENT, SO HE MUST ALSO BE THE ONE AND ONLY LORD, SAVIOUR, AND REDEEMER IN THE OLD TESTAMENT AS THESE VERSES SHOW:
• Is. 43:1 But now thus saith the LORD that **CREATED THEE**, O Jacob, and he that **FORMED THEE**, O Israel, Fear not: for I have **REDEEMED** thee, I have called thee by thy name; thou art mine. ...3 For I am the LORD thy God, the Holy One of Israel, thy **SAVIOUR**: ... 11 I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.
Is. 47:4 As for our **REDEEMER**, the LORD of hosts is his name, the Holy One of Israel.
• Is. 48:16 Come ye near unto me, hear ye this; I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, there am I: and now the Lord GOD, AND HIS Spirit, hath sent **ME**. 17 Thus saith the LORD, thy **REDEEMER**, the Holy One of Israel; I am the LORD thy God which teacheth thee to profit, which leadeth thee by the way that thou shouldest go.
• Is. 49:7 Thus saith the LORD, the Redeemer of Israel, AND **HIS Holy One**, to him whom man despiseth, to him whom the nation abhorreth, to a servant of rulers, Kings shall see and arise, princes also shall worship, because of the LORD that is faithful, AND **THE Holy One of Israel**, and he shall choose thee. ... 26 And I will feed them that oppress thee with their own flesh; and they shall be drunken with their own blood, as with sweet wine: and all flesh shall know that I the LORD am **THY SAVIOUR AND THY REDEEMER**, the **MIGHTY ONE OF JACOB**.
• Is. 59:20 And the **REDEEMER** shall come to Zion, and unto them that turn from transgression in Jacob, saith the LORD.
• Is. 60:9 ... unto the name of the LORD thy God, AND and to **THE Holy One** of Israel, because he hath glorified thee. ... 16 ... and thou shalt know that I the LORD am thy **SAVIOUR AND THY REDEEMER**, the **MIGHTY ONE** of Jacob.

WE KNOW THAT JESUS CHRIST IS THE ONE AND ONLY "KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS" IN THE NT. THERE IS NO PROPHECY IN THE BIBLE OF GOD THE FATHER RETURNING TO THE EARTH UNTIL AFTER THE MILLENIAL REIGN OF THE CHRIST IS OVER. THEREFORE, JESUS CHRIST MUST BE THE ONE AND ONLY RETURNING KING:
• Is. 44:6 Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, AND HIS **REDEEMER** the LORD of hosts; **I am the first, and I am the last**; and beside me there is no God. ... 24 Thus saith the LORD, thy **REDEEMER**, and **he that formed thee from the womb**, I am the LORD that **maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth BY MYSELF**;
• Zech. 14:3 Then shall the LORD **GO FORTH**, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle. 4 And **HIS FEET SHALL STAND** in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south. 5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God **SHALL COME**, and all the saints with thee. 9 And the LORD shall be **KING** over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one. ... 16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the **KING**, the LORD of hosts... 17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the **KING**, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.
• Mic. 5:2 But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, ... out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be **RULER** in Israel; whose goings forth have been **FROM OF OLD, FROM EVERLASTING**.
• Zech. 8:3 Thus saith the LORD; I am **RETURNED** unto Zion, and will **DWELL** in the midst of Jerusalem: and Jerusalem shall be called a city of truth; and the mountain of the LORD of hosts the holy mountain. ... 8 And I will bring them, and they shall dwell in the midst of Jerusalem: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God, in truth and in righteousness.
• Zech. 9:9 Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy **King** cometh unto thee: he is just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ass, and upon a colt the foal of an ass. 14 And the LORD shall be seen over them, and his arrow shall go forth as the lightning: and the Lord GOD shall **BLOW THE TRUMPET**, and shall go with whirlwinds of the south.
• Mal. 4:1 For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch. 2 But unto you that fear my name shall the **Sun of righteousness** arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.

IN THE NT, JESUS CHRIST IS THE CREATOR, THEREFORE HE MUST ALSO BE THE CREATOR OF THE OT
• Is. 45:5 I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: ... 6 That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else. 7 ** I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things**. ... 11 Thus saith the LORD, the Holy One of Israel, **AND HIS MAKER**, ... 15 Verily thou art a God that hidest thyself, O God of Israel, the **Saviour**. ... 21 ... who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a **Saviour**; there is none beside me.
• Is. 54:5 For thy **Maker** is thine husband; the LORD of hosts is his name; and thy Redeemer the Holy One of Israel; The God of the whole earth shall he be called. ... 5 Behold, thou shalt call a nation that thou knowest not, and nations that knew not thee shall run unto thee because of the LORD thy God, AND for **THE Holy One** of Israel; for he hath glorified thee.
• Zech. 12:1 The burden of the word of the LORD for Israel, saith the LORD, which **stretcheth forth the heavens, and layeth the foundation of the earth, and formeth the spirit of man within him**.... 9 And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem. 10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look **UPON ME WHOM THEY HAVE PIERCED**, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his **ONLY SON**,...

IN THE NT, JESUS IS THE JUDGE. THEREFORE HE MUST ALSO BE THE JUDGE OF THE OT.
• Is. 3:13 The LORD standeth up to plead, and **STANDETH TO JUDGE** the people.

IN THE NT, JESUS IS IMMANUEL (GOD WITH US). THEREFORE, HE IS OBVIOUSLY IMMANUEL IN THE OT.
• Is. 7:14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name **Immanuel**.

IN THE NT, JESUS CHRIST IS THE FIRST AND THE LAST/ALPHA AND OMEGA, BEGINNING AND THE END. THEREFORE, HE MUST BE THE SAME IN THE OT.
• Is. 41:4 Who hath wrought and done it, calling the generations from the beginning? I the LORD, the **first, and with the last; I am he**

JESUS IS GOD AND EVERLASTING.
• Is. 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a **SON** is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, **THE MIGHTY GOD**, The **EVERLASTING** Father, The Prince of Peace.
• Mic. 5:2 But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet OUT OF THEE shall **HE** come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, FROM EVERLASTING.

IN THE OT, JESUS IS THE LORD AND A MIGHTY MAN.
• Is. 42:1 Behold **my servant**, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth **judgment** to the Gentiles. ... 13 The LORD shall go forth **AS A MIGHTY MAN**, ...

************************************************** ********

DispensationalJim

I hope DRS will take the time to really read this - it is packed with good stuff.

[Harmonious]

*sigh*

I was hoping it wouldn't have to come to this...
A repeat especially for DRS...
************************************************** ***********

JESUS IN THE OLD TESTAMENT

THE GODHEAD OF THE NEW TESTAMENT IS ALSO IN THE OLD TESTAMENT:
• Gen. 1:26 And God said, Let **US** make man in our image, after our likeness:God was talking to the angels, teaching us that even when we are very powerful, it is good to ask advice from underlings.
• Gen. 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as **ONE OF US**, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever: Again, God spoke to the angels. Both God and angels know the difference between good and evil, and now so does man.

Angels, not separate people in God.
• Gen. 11:6 And the LORD said, ... 7 Go to, let **US** go down, and there confound their language, that they may not understand one another’s speech.Again, God talks to angels.
• Psa. 2:7 I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art **MY SON**; this day have I begotten thee. God is talking about King David.
... 12 Kiss the **SON**, lest he be angry, ... ** Blessed are all they that put their trust in HIM**.Or, more accurately:
12. Arm yourselves with purity lest He become angry and you perish in the way, for in a moment His wrath will be kindled; the praises of all who take refuge in Him.

• Is. 6:8 Also I heard the voice of the Lord, saying, Whom shall I send, and who will go for **US**?God is talking to the angels and Isaiah.

THE CHARACTERISTICS OF GOD THE FATHER ATTRIBUTED TO GOD THE SON

WE KNOW THAT JESUS IS THE ONE AND ONLY LORD, SAVIOUR, AND REDEEMER IN THE NEW TESTAMENT, SO HE MUST ALSO BE THE ONE AND ONLY LORD, SAVIOUR, AND REDEEMER IN THE OLD TESTAMENT AS THESE VERSES SHOW:That doesn't at all follow. God is the one and only God. Jesus has nothing to do with God. Therefore, the next set of passages have nothing to do with Jesus. At all.
• Is. 43:1 But now thus saith the LORD that **CREATED THEE**, O Jacob, and he that **FORMED THEE**, O Israel, Fear not: for I have **REDEEMED** thee, I have called thee by thy name; thou art mine. ...3 For I am the LORD thy God, the Holy One of Israel, thy **SAVIOUR**: ... 11 I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.
Is. 47:4 As for our **REDEEMER**, the LORD of hosts is his name, the Holy One of Israel.
• Is. 48:16 Come ye near unto me, hear ye this; I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, there am I: and now the Lord GOD, AND HIS Spirit, hath sent **ME**. 17 Thus saith the LORD, thy **REDEEMER**, the Holy One of Israel; I am the LORD thy God which teacheth thee to profit, which leadeth thee by the way that thou shouldest go.
• Is. 49:7 Thus saith the LORD, the Redeemer of Israel, AND **HIS Holy One**, to him whom man despiseth, to him whom the nation abhorreth, to a servant of rulers, Kings shall see and arise, princes also shall worship, because of the LORD that is faithful, AND **THE Holy One of Israel**, and he shall choose thee. ... 26 And I will feed them that oppress thee with their own flesh; and they shall be drunken with their own blood, as with sweet wine: and all flesh shall know that I the LORD am **THY SAVIOUR AND THY REDEEMER**, the **MIGHTY ONE OF JACOB**.
• Is. 59:20 And the **REDEEMER** shall come to Zion, and unto them that turn from transgression in Jacob, saith the LORD.
• Is. 60:9 ... unto the name of the LORD thy God, AND and to **THE Holy One** of Israel, because he hath glorified thee. ... 16 ... and thou shalt know that I the LORD am thy **SAVIOUR AND THY REDEEMER**, the **MIGHTY ONE** of Jacob.
As I said, this has NOTHING to do with Jesus.
WE KNOW THAT JESUS CHRIST IS THE ONE AND ONLY "KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS" IN THE NT. THERE IS NO PROPHECY IN THE BIBLE OF GOD THE FATHER RETURNING TO THE EARTH UNTIL AFTER THE MILLENIAL REIGN OF THE CHRIST IS OVER. THEREFORE, JESUS CHRIST MUST BE THE ONE AND ONLY RETURNING KING:Again, this doesn't follow. Jews are waiting for our Messiah. Jesus was never a king, and he certainly won't be a "returning king."
• Is. 44:6 Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, AND HIS **REDEEMER** the LORD of hosts; **I am the first, and I am the last**; and beside me there is no God.The Messiah. Good call. Still not Jesus, though.
... 24 Thus saith the LORD, thy **REDEEMER**, and **he that formed thee from the womb**, I am the LORD that **maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth BY MYSELF**; This one was all about God. Nothing to do with Jesus.
• Zech. 14:3 Then shall the LORD **GO FORTH**, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle. 4 And **HIS FEET SHALL STAND** in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south. 5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God **SHALL COME**, and all the saints with thee. 9 And the LORD shall be **KING** over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one. ... 16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the **KING**, the LORD of hosts... 17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the **KING**, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain. This is about God, but not Jesus. Even the feet thing is a metaphor.
• Mic. 5:2 But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, ... out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be **RULER** in Israel; whose goings forth have been **FROM OF OLD, FROM EVERLASTING**.Referring to King David. But interesting try.

[Harmonious]

.
• Zech. 8:3 Thus saith the LORD; I am **RETURNED** unto Zion, and will **DWELL** in the midst of Jerusalem: and Jerusalem shall be called a city of truth; and the mountain of the LORD of hosts the holy mountain. ... 8 And I will bring them, and they shall dwell in the midst of Jerusalem: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God, in truth and in righteousness. Still not about Jesus.
• Zech. 9:9 Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy **King** cometh unto thee: he is just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ass, and upon a colt the foal of an ass. 14 And the LORD shall be seen over them, and his arrow shall go forth as the lightning: and the Lord GOD shall **BLOW THE TRUMPET**, and shall go with whirlwinds of the south. Still not about Jesus.
• Mal. 4:1 For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch. 2 But unto you that fear my name shall the **Sun of righteousness** arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.Still not about Jesus.

IN THE NT, JESUS CHRIST IS THE CREATOR, THEREFORE HE MUST ALSO BE THE CREATOR OF THE OTDear God, no!
• Is. 45:5 I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: ... 6 That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else. 7 ** I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things**. ... 11 Thus saith the LORD, the Holy One of Israel, **AND HIS MAKER**, ... 15 Verily thou art a God that hidest thyself, O God of Israel, the **Saviour**. ... 21 ... who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a **Saviour**; there is none beside me.
• Is. 54:5 For thy **Maker** is thine husband; the LORD of hosts is his name; and thy Redeemer the Holy One of Israel; The God of the whole earth shall he be called. ... 5 Behold, thou shalt call a nation that thou knowest not, and nations that knew not thee shall run unto thee because of the LORD thy God, AND for **THE Holy One** of Israel; for he hath glorified thee. All of this was God, nothing to do with Jesus.
• Zech. 12:1 The burden of the word of the LORD for Israel, saith the LORD, which **stretcheth forth the heavens, and layeth the foundation of the earth, and formeth the spirit of man within him**.... 9 And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem. 10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look **UPON ME WHOM THEY HAVE PIERCED**, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his **ONLY SON**,...You are working too hard for this "only son" thing. Not Jesus, but they will look upon the Jerusalem and the demolished kingship of David, and the mourning will be as intense as it would be over an only son.

That wasn't even a GOOD try. :naughty:
IN THE NT, JESUS IS THE JUDGE. THEREFORE HE MUST ALSO BE THE JUDGE OF THE OT.No he wasn't.
• Is. 3:13 The LORD standeth up to plead, and **STANDETH TO JUDGE** the people.
Oh, please.
IN THE NT, JESUS IS IMMANUEL (GOD WITH US). THEREFORE, HE IS OBVIOUSLY IMMANUEL IN THE OT.No, he isn't.
• Is. 7:14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name **Immanuel**.Rather,
14. Therefore, the Lord, of His own, shall give you a sign; behold, the young woman is with child, and she shall bear a son, and she shall call his name Immanuel.

The child is a sign for Achaz, and nothing at all to do with virgins or Jesus. :rolleyes:

IN THE NT, JESUS CHRIST IS THE FIRST AND THE LAST/ALPHA AND OMEGA, BEGINNING AND THE END. THEREFORE, HE MUST BE THE SAME IN THE OT.Really, no he isn't.
• Is. 41:4 Who hath wrought and done it, calling the generations from the beginning? I the LORD, the **first, and with the last; I am he** God, not Jesus.

JESUS IS GOD AND EVERLASTING.
• Is. 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a **SON** is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, **THE MIGHTY GOD**, The **EVERLASTING** Father, The Prince of Peace.
Actually, God called the child The Prince of Peace, as a better translation is:
5. For a child has been born to us, a son given to us, and the authority is upon his shoulder, and the wondrous adviser, the mighty God, the everlasting Father, called his name, "the prince of peace."
• Mic. 5:2 But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet OUT OF THEE shall **HE** come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, FROM EVERLASTING.
Talking about the Messiah who will come from King David. Nice try, though.
IN THE OT, JESUS IS THE LORD AND A MIGHTY MAN.Whatever.
• Is. 42:1 Behold **my servant**, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth **judgment** to the Gentiles.This is about Isaiah himself. It helps to look at context. ... 13 The LORD shall go forth **AS A MIGHTY MAN**, ...
Nope. This is about God, not Jesus.

Jesus is NOT in the OT.

[DispensationalJim]

Jim, you know that I respect you. However, Jesus wasn't anywhere in the OT.

D-Jim responds:
Harmonious, I always appreciate your honesty and interest as you share your views, so I will attempt to reply in kind.

From your own Jewish perspective, your interpretation of the verses given seem to be quite acceptable. But since you do not believe or accept the New Testament in any tangible way, that naturally places your observations into a much more narrow viewpoint which cannot possibly comprehend the incredible fulfillment a Christian sees in every one of those passages.

On a short "vacation" trip last week, my wife and I caught a radio program which featured a man who called himself a "completed Jew." He was incredibly articulate and obviously extremely well educated and was quoting OT and NT verses verbatim during an interview. He was explaining their connection with the "Rashashanna" holiday. For my wife and I, it was most impressive... but, for you, it probably would have been terribly exasperating.

I doubt that we will ever see eye to eye on this issue, but I have been absolutely convinced of my own understanding and comprehension of the OT and NT Scriptures in regard to the Saviour/Messiah for some 50 years. I attended high school with a large number of Jewish "kids," and became rather close to a few of them. I developed a great respect for them. A couple of them even went on to become rather famous. But when, as a Senior, I got "saved," they began to avoid me like the plague. That hurt me... but I have come to understand.

'nuff said...

D-Jim

[Harmonious]

:hug:

[DRS]

So you say, but it strikes me as odd that you constantly refer to the OT in talking about the nature of Christ, when the NT revelation of Christ is newer and far more complete.

Why would you not go to the newer, more complete revelation of Christ to try to understand His nature?

The apostles had an excuse - they only had the OT.

You have no such excuse . . .



This is why you need to go to the newer revelation, to see how it all ends. And in the end, God Himself became a man to save us.



He became a servant for our sakes.

But he is still God, as the NT amply demonstrates.



God does not change, He is one OT and NT.

No man may see God and live-OT
no man has seen god at anytime-NT

God used prophets in the OT even foretelling that god would raise up a prophet like Moses-Jesus

God used judges to save Israel from their enemies and death, just as he used Jesus to save His servants.

God laid down the law then there were judges appointed to judge according to what God said.

Jesus and those who will rule with him judge.


What you are alway refferring to is greek though overlaid on Christian scripture.

[Fire Watch]

What you are alway refferring to is greek though overlaid on Christian scripture.
You like to throw around that "Greek thought" line, yet your Christology comes not from scripture but from the thoughts of Lucian of Antioch and Arius, from Egypt and Mesopotamia respectively, AD 250-336 .

[DRS]

You like to throw around that "Greek thought" line, yet your Christology comes not from scripture but from the thoughts of Lucian of Antioch and Arius from Egypt and Mesopotamia respectively.

No it comes from the bible i have already stated Aruis was wrong on some things. Espicially being willing to climb into bed with the Roman emporer. and since Luian taught Aruis it may have been him who taught Aruis greek thought that did not jive with scripture, about knowing God.

[DRS]

The idea of a dual nature is found in neoplatonic thought, and it has been aknowledged here by others who do not share my faith here, that there are similrities, I believe there was even a thread on it.

[Fire Watch]

No it comes from the bible i have already stated Aruis was wrong on some things.
No, it comes from a translation of scripture written to conform with the thoughts of Arius.

[DRS]

No, it comes from a translation of scripture written to conform with the thoughts of Arius.

I did not know th OT which i used several times to show that which was to come with Christ was prefigured in God's dealings with men and israel show God uses servants was influenced by Aruis.

For instance God has Abraham offer up Issac, to show what He would do with His own son.

[Fire Watch]

For instance God has Abraham offer up Issac, to show what He would do with His own son.
Well, if we want to read things into scripture that isnt exactly spelled out, that's easy enough. I do think that story is a typology of Christ, however, I think it makes my case moreso than yours..

Gen 22:8 (http://cf.blb.org/search/getBible.cfm?b=Gen&c=22&v=8&version=KJV#8)
And Abraham said, My son, God will provide himself a lamb for a burnt offering: so they went both of them together.


From my standpoint, it can be read, "God will provide himself (as) a lamb"

So, you see..reading into scripture what we wish to see isnt hard to do.

[DRS]

Well, if we want to read things into scripture that isnt exactly spelled out, that's easy enough. I do think that story is a typology of Christ, however, I think it makes my case moreso than yours..

Gen 22:8 (http://cf.blb.org/search/getBible.cfm?b=Gen&c=22&v=8&version=KJV#8)
And Abraham said, My son, God will provide himself a lamb for a burnt offering: so they went both of them together.


From my standpoint, it can be read, "God will provide himself (as) a lamb"

So, you see..reading into scripture what we wish to see isnt hard to do.

You have to add the as to make it happen.

Then there is Moses whom was made god to Pharoah.

Manna

Men such as Ehud who are called saviours

The list can go on and on.

[Fire Watch]

You have to add the as to make it happen.

Then there is Moses whom was made god to Pharoah.

Manna

Men such as Ehud who are called saviours

The list can go on and on.
Only by ignoring context and altering the definition of words to fit a preconceived idea.

[Fire Watch]

You have to add the as to make it happen.
Similar to adding the word "a" to John 1.."In the beginnig was the word, and the word was with God, and the word was [a] God" you mean?

[DRS]

Only by ignoring context and altering the definition of words to fit a preconceived idea.

Preconcieved ideas are from men not Jehovah.

The word God for instance. Can be used several ways as it is in the OT and NT.

But there is only one called Most High or Almighty.

[DRS]

Similar to adding the word "a" to John 1.."In the beginnig was the word, and the word was with God, and the word was [a] God" you mean?

To add the as what word was there to make you think it should be put in.

In John 1:1 the definite article the is removed from the first instance of God distingushing betwen the two instances of God there.

[Fire Watch]

][/FONT]
In John 1:1 the definite article the is removed from the first instance of God distingushing betwen the two instances of God there.
The NWT version has ben proven wrong on this numerous times.

[DRS]

The NWT version has ben proven wrong on this numerous times.

I have seen sites proving it right, and this translation is older than the NWT

[Fire Watch]

I have seen sites proving it right,
Oh I'm sure you have. You do realize that just because Al Gore's wonderful, fantastic, amazing interweb makes a claim, that it isnt necessarily the truth right?

[DRS]

Oh I'm sure you have. You do realize that just because Al Gore's wonderful, fantastic, amazing interweb makes a claim, that it isnt necessarily the truth right?

Niether because one who believe Jesus is god makes a claim does not make it so either.

Why do you think the definite article was ommitted?

[Fire Watch]

Niether because one who believe Jesus is god makes a claim does not make it so either.

Why do you think the definite article was ommitted?
This has been rehashed 30 times at least in this thread. There is only one definite article "ho"="the" in a clause where two nouns are in the nominative "subject" form "theos" and "logos", so the noun with the definite article "ho"="the" is the subject. So "ho logos" means that "the word" is the subject of the clause. Therefore, "...the Word was God" is the correct translation

[DRS]

This has been rehashed 30 times at least in this thread. There is only one definite article "ho"="the" in a clause where two nouns are in the nominative "subject" form "theos" and "logos", so the noun with the definite article "ho"="the" is the subject. So "ho logos" means that "the word" is the subject of the clause. Therefore, "...the Word was God" is the correct translation

But the Word was toward the God

This whole verse is one sentence.

[Fire Watch]

But the Word was toward the God

This whole verse is one sentence.
Where did the word originate?

[drmilo]

To add the as what word was there to make you think it should be put in.

In John 1:1 the definite article the is removed from the first instance of God distingushing betwen the two instances of God there.

The definite article "the" removed in translation from Greek to English is meaningless to the meaning of the sentence.

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with the God, and the word was God"

means the same as

"In the beginnnig was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."

You cannot add the "a" because the "the" is removed.

You definitely cannot add the "a" because the literal word for word is: "and God was the Word" Not "And a god was the Word."

Now, to add:

In English, you would not use an article before God when referring to the Judeo-Christian God.

A definite article (the) is used before singular and plural nouns that refer to a particular member of a group.

An indefinite article (a, an) is used before singular nouns that refer to any member of a group.

God is not a group. God is one. There is only one God. Therefore, in the sentence "The Word was With God" you would not use "the" in combination with "God" because God is not being shown as a specific member of a group of gods. Therefore, you would not use the article "the" for this reason in English.

However, when saying, for instance, "the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob" you're using the article to point to a specific God. Abraham's God, Isaac's God, Jacob's God. Not Pharoah's god. Even though Pharoah's god is a false god, the article is being used to distinguish spefically Abraham's God.

The article can also be used to introduce a new subject in the sentence structure. In the sentence in question, "The Word" is the subject throughout, therefore, "the" before God does not follow proper English in this regard.

Typically, a definite article is used to refer to a previously introduced noun. In this sentence, God was not previously introduced. So it is not correct English to put the "the" in for this reason.

Articles are often in English dropped when not necessary. For example, "It followed her to the school" and "It followed her to school" mean the same thing.

While the Greek has a definite article, it does not follow that one must keep the article when translating to English. In fact, to follow proper use of the English language, we must drop the article. In all three instances of why an article would be used, the context of the sentence demands that it not be used. We are not referring to a specific being out of a group of beings; we are not introducing a new subject to the sentence, we are not referring to a previously introduced noun.

Furthermore, definite articles are omitted in English when combined with a prepositional phrase in certain instances.

[DRS]

Where did the word originate?

Proverbs 8:22-31 shows where the word originates

[DRS]

The definite article "the" removed in translation from Greek to English is meaningless to the meaning of the sentence.

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with the God, and the word was God"

means the same as

"In the beginnnig was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."

You cannot add the "a" because the "the" is removed.

You definitely cannot add the "a" because the literal word for word is: "and God was the Word" Not "And a god was the Word."

Now, to add:

In English, you would not use an article before God when referring to the Judeo-Christian God.

A definite article (the) is used before singular and plural nouns that refer to a particular member of a group.

An indefinite article (a, an) is used before singular nouns that refer to any member of a group.

God is not a group. God is one. There is only one God. Therefore, in the sentence "The Word was With God" you would not use "the" in combination with "God" because God is not being shown as a specific member of a group of gods. Therefore, you would not use the article "the" for this reason in English.

However, when saying, for instance, "the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob" you're using the article to point to a specific God. Abraham's God, Isaac's God, Jacob's God. Not Pharoah's god. Even though Pharoah's god is a false god, the article is being used to distinguish spefically Abraham's God.

The article can also be used to introduce a new subject in the sentence structure. In the sentence in question, "The Word" is the subject throughout, therefore, "the" before God does not follow proper English in this regard.

Typically, a definite article is used to refer to a previously introduced noun. In this sentence, God was not previously introduced. So it is not correct English to put the "the" in for this reason.

Articles are often in English dropped when not necessary. For example, "It followed her to the school" and "It followed her to school" mean the same thing.

While the Greek has a definite article, it does not follow that one must keep the article when translating to English. In fact, to follow proper use of the English language, we must drop the article. In all three instances of why an article would be used, the context of the sentence demands that it not be used. We are not referring to a specific being out of a group of beings; we are not introducing a new subject to the sentence, we are not referring to a previously introduced noun.

Furthermore, definite articles are omitted in English when combined with a prepositional phrase in certain instances.

Actually it does change the meaning when you look at the Hebrew in job 1:6 for instance they enter in before the God.

Secondly angels are called gods also in the OT so you have you group, distinguishing the One from the others.

[drmilo]

Actually it does change the meaning when you look at the Hebrew in job 1:6 for instance they enter in before the God.

Secondly angels are called gods also in the OT so you have you group, distinguishing the One from the others.

DRS, you can leave in the "the" and the meaning of the sentence does not change. The absence of the article before the second instance of "God" in the sentence is not differentiating between "the God" and "God" otherwise, the second instance would need an indefinite article.

I am comfortable with "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with the God, and God was the Word." (the literal word for word.) I see no difference in the meaning of that sentence than in the meaning of the English translation "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."

Just a question, DRS, is English your first language? I was an English major in college. While I might need a refresher every now and then, I do know the rules of English grammar, and I do know that the use of definite articles can be different in other languages.

This whole angels were called God thing is ridiculous. (As Harmonious has attempted to show you, the word Elohim has different meanings depending upon context. Words are like that, you know; they sometimes have more than one meaning, and their meaning must be taken by their context.) Are you really going to sit there and tell me that there is a group of gods but Jehovah is "the God"? Like Jehovah is Zeus, the King of the gods?

Then, I submit, your philosophy is the polytheistic one.

[Warrior4God]

I believe both sides of the issue on John 1:1 have been voiced many times over.

I have posted my view on this verse many times as well,I got tired of rehashing the same arguement over and over which I think is pointless as one verse in scripture must be understood in light of the rest of scripture no matter what side of this debate one is on.
An important distinction must be made: there are those (the vast majority) who marginally accept the Trinity either because they are not really familiar with the Bible, and trust their teachers and spiritual leaders, or they are intimidated by “the system” and just go along with it. There are others who aggressively uphold the Trinity as the very cornerstone of Christianity, and go out of their way to warn those who even think of straying from historical orthodoxy. In any case, I love my Trinitarian brothers and sisters and welcome opportunities to fellowship with them for our mutual profit. But I am not naïve about what committed Trinitarians are taught to think about those of us who teach an alternate view. Nor can I be hopeful that we can develop successful, cooperative, working relationships with them as long as they think me to be heretic.This saddens me deeply and feel the unity of the body of Christ is what is hurt the most.
I have been told in a round about way that I may not even be saved,That is no problem but for the point that we are to build up and not tear down.
I pray that unity in the body and walking in love will be that common ground we can all stand on and Christ Jesus being the foundation.

[drmilo]

...

Again were they looking for a king or God?

The Jews were looking for a King.

Here's the thing, DRS, the original plan of God was for Him (Jehovah) to be the King of Israel.

He set up a human king to rule over Israel because they were stubborn in demanding a human king.

So, the Jews were looking for a King.

God gave them a King.

God restored the orginal plan -- God gave them Himself as King.

[Angryamerican]

Oh brother . . . yes, 'amazing", I agree.

I said the doctrine of the trinity wasn't formulated until years later.

Do you know what a doctrine is Semi? It is a systematic formulation of a belief or set of beliefs.

I then went on to show you how the basic beliefs which underlie that doctrine were taught by the Apostles.

But I guess you missed all that in your desperation trying to think of some way around the fact that the Apostles knew and taught that Jesus is God.

Everybody read what you wrote and you know the apostles and deciples did not believe Jesus was God because he wasn't God quit spinning.

[Harmonious]

The Jews were looking for a King.

Here's the thing, DRS, the original plan of God was for Him (Jehovah) to be the King of Israel.

He set up a human king to rule over Israel because they were stubborn in demanding a human king.

So, the Jews were looking for a King.

God gave them a King.

God restored the orginal plan -- God gave them Himself as King.

Funny that the Jews don't see it that way. :think:

[DRS]

The Jews were looking for a King.

Here's the thing, DRS, the original plan of God was for Him (Jehovah) to be the King of Israel.

He set up a human king to rule over Israel because they were stubborn in demanding a human king.

So, the Jews were looking for a King.

God gave them a King.

God restored the orginal plan -- God gave them Himself as King.


Oh then why does Paul write after the last enemy is defeated then Jesus will submit himself to the one who submitted all things to him, so God is everything to everyone.

Seems with what is said here now God is not king.

[DRS]

DRS, you can leave in the "the" and the meaning of the sentence does not change. The absence of the article before the second instance of "God" in the sentence is not differentiating between "the God" and "God" otherwise, the second instance would need an indefinite article.

I am comfortable with "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with the God, and God was the Word." (the literal word for word.) I see no difference in the meaning of that sentence than in the meaning of the English translation "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."

Just a question, DRS, is English your first language? I was an English major in college. While I might need a refresher every now and then, I do know the rules of English grammar, and I do know that the use of definite articles can be different in other languages.

This whole angels were called God thing is ridiculous. (As Harmonious has attempted to show you, the word Elohim has different meanings depending upon context. Words are like that, you know; they sometimes have more than one meaning, and their meaning must be taken by their context.) Are you really going to sit there and tell me that there is a group of gods but Jehovah is "the God"? Like Jehovah is Zeus, the King of the gods?

Then, I submit, your philosophy is the polytheistic one.


The prophecy was Jesus would be made lower than the god like ones.

[Angryamerican]

When you say "verbiage" that don't appear in scripture, do you mean that such words that aren't in the scripture are not valid when talking about scripture?

If so, do you read the Bible? Because the word "Bible" is not in the scripture, therefore we must not have any Bibles.

Does the word bible change the meaning of God?

Does the word trinity?

Very poor reasoning on your part.

[Angryamerican]

Excellent post D-Jim! Another "keeper"!

Do you actually read them because this has already been posted :lol::lol::lol:

[drmilo]

Does the word bible change the meaning of God?

Does the word trinity?

Very poor reasoning on your part.

My point, AA, is that just because a word does not appear in the Bible, does not mean that that word is anti-scriptural.

For instance: Is God Omnipotent? Does the word omnipotent appear in the Bible? Is God Omnipresent? Does the word omnipresent appear in the bible? Is God omiscient? Does the word omniscient appear in the bible?

The individual words might not appear, but their meaning does, and their concepts do.

The same with the word trinity.

[Angryamerican]

It doesn't seem to me that Oneness and Trinitarianism are that far apart.

Yes, I know there are differences, but it seems to me we have more in common than different.

I'll take my chances with that heretic label! ;)

So almost counts? :lol:

[DRS]

My point, AA, is that just because a word does not appear in the Bible, does not mean that that word is anti-scriptural.

For instance: Is God Omnipotent? Does the word omnipotent appear in the Bible? Is God Omnipresent? Does the word omnipresent appear in the bible? Is God omiscient? Does the word omniscient appear in the bible?

The individual words might not appear, but their meaning does, and their concepts do.

The same with the word trinity.

Actually there are scriptures to contradict the idea of omnipresent.

[DRS]

So almost counts? :lol:

Actually oneness was the way they were leaning until charges of sabellism were brought up.

Also read at one time there was an idea of 4 people making up God with Mary being included.

[Angryamerican]

My point, AA, is that just because a word does not appear in the Bible, does not mean that that word is anti-scriptural.

For instance: Is God Omnipotent? Does the word omnipotent appear in the Bible? Is God Omnipresent? Does the word omnipresent appear in the bible? Is God omiscient? Does the word omniscient appear in the bible?

The individual words might not appear, but their meaning does, and their concepts do.

The same with the word trinity.

I am perfectly fine with what God already wrote not interested in mans spin on his words.

[drmilo]

Actually there are scriptures to contradict the idea of omnipresent.

Okay, post one.

Here's my quote from earlier in the thread showing all three in scripture:


Omniscient (all knowing) --

Psalm 139:1-6
1 "O LORD, thou hast searched me, and known me.
2 Thou knowest my downsitting and mine uprising, thou understandest my thought afar off.
3 Thou compassest my path and my lying down, and art acquainted with all my ways.
4 For there is not a word in my tongue, but, lo, O LORD, thou knowest it altogether.
5 Thou hast beset me behind and before, and laid thine hand upon me.
6 Such knowledge is too wonderful for me; it is high, I cannot attain unto it.


Omnipresent (everywhere) --

Psalm 139:7-13
7 Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence?
8 If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.
9 If I take the wings of the morning, and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea;
10 Even there shall thy hand lead me, and thy right hand shall hold me.
11 If I say, Surely the darkness shall cover me; even the night shall be light about me.
12 Yea, the darkness hideth not from thee; but the night shineth as the day: the darkness and the light are both alike to thee.
13 For thou hast possessed my reins: thou hast covered me in my mother's womb.


Omnipotent (all powerful) --

Matthew 19: 25-26

25 When his disciples heard it, they were exceedingly amazed, saying, Who then can be saved?
26 But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.

[Angryamerican]

Okay, post one.

Here's my quote from earlier in the thread showing all three in scripture:

You do realize nothing of what you posted pertained to Christ?

[DRS]

Okay, post one.

Here's my quote from earlier in the thread showing all three in scripture:

As i have shown beofre if you buy into God all knowing, meaning he knew all things ahead of time, God had to see evil before He created menaing God has evil in Him.

Do you believe God has evil in Him?

Nothing can be hidden from God, but this does not prove He is everywhere, as the heaven are where He resides.

(Job 26:6) She′ol is naked in front of him, And [the place of] destruction has no covering.



(Proverbs 15:11) She′ol and [the place of] destruction are in front of Jehovah. How much more so the hearts of the sons of mankind!

Unless you believe God is not a spirit

1 Cor. 15:44*It is sown a physical body, it is raised up a spiritual body. If there is a physical body, there is also a spiritual one

John 4:24*God is a Spirit, and those worshiping him must worship with spirit and truth.”

1Kings 8:43*may you yourself listen from the heavens, your established place of dwelling, and you must do according to all that for which the foreigner calls to you; in order that all the peoples of the earth may get to know your name so as to fear you the same as your people Israel do, and so as to know that your name itself has been called upon this house that I have built.

[Angryamerican]

Preconcieved ideas are from men not Jehovah.

The word God for instance. Can be used several ways as it is in the OT and NT.

But there is only one called Most High or Almighty.

That is very true. God by saying there is no other God, to me means there is no one equal to him But there are some that are like him but just not equal to him. They are spirit and they have powers so to us they would be godlike.

The word godlike does appear in the scriptures. But a statement like God the son you are saying jesus is God but we find no verse saying God the son.

[DRS]

Hey Sonny, not travelling this week?

[drmilo]

You do realize nothing of what you posted pertained to Christ?

You do realize that I was proving through scripture that GOD is omnipresent, omniscient, omnipotent. DRS said that God is not omnipresent.

[drmilo]

As i have shown beofre if you buy into God all knowing, meaning he knew all things ahead of time, God had to see evil before He created menaing God has evil in Him.

Do you believe God has evil in Him?

This is very faulty logic, DRS. Very faulty. If I as an author create a murderer in my
story, does that mean that I have murder in me? If I do not stop him from murdering another character in the story, does that mean I have murder in me?


Nothing can be hidden from God, but this does not prove He is everywhere, as the heaven are where He resides.

I reside at my house. Doesn't mean I don't go outside and go other places.

Tell me, can you hide from God? You know, God must have been busy on 9/11 helping all those people in trouble, you think maybe that was a day you could have done anything you wanted because God couldn't see, since he was busy?



(Job 26:6) She′ol is naked in front of him, And [the place of] destruction has no covering.



(Proverbs 15:11) She′ol and [the place of] destruction are in front of Jehovah. How much more so the hearts of the sons of mankind!


What do these quotes have to do with the question of God's omnipotence, omnipresence, and omniscience?

Tell me, DRS, is God limited?

[DRS]

If you can forsee evil then yes you have evil inside you, part of our being imperfect.

Never said God can not travel if He so chooses but just as you are in place so is God.

God does not need to be every where in order for things to not be hidden from.

[drmilo]

If you can forsee evil then yes you have evil inside you, part of our being imperfect.

Never said God can not travel if He so chooses but just as you are in place so is God.

God does not need to be every where in order for things to not be hidden from.

So, in your eyes, God is a limited being?

[drmilo]

Do you believe God has evil in Him?


Here's why this is faulty logic, DRS. Evil is not a thing that had to be created. Evil is the absence of good. God created the tree of the knowledge of good and evil in the Garden of Eden. What does this mean? It means that God created free will. He then gave Adam a choice. Do not eat of the tree, as God commanded; or eat of the tree and suffer the consequences. What does it mean to have a tree of knowledge of good and evil?

God is Good. Evil is the absence of Good -- therefore Evil is the absence of God. God does not have "evil in him" because evil, in and of itself, is not a created thing. Just like cold does not exist as an independent thing-- cold is the absence of heat; just like darkness does not exist as an independent thing -- darkness is the absence of light. Evil does not exist as an independent thing -- evil is the absence of good, or the absence of God. God cannot, by definition, have evil in him because God cannot be absent from himself.

God did, however, create free will. He wanted his creations to follow him not out of obligation but out of choice. So he set up a choice. Do what I say and live forever in paradise, or do not do what I say and suffer the consequences.

God, also, knew which choice men would make. And thus men then knew evil -- men knew the absence of God. Evil is not a thing that exists -- evil is the absence of a thing that exists. When men choose evil, they choose to live absent from God. When men choose God, God is there; if God is there, there is no evil -- for God is present.

For example, a hole in the ground is not a real, phyical thing -- it is the absence of dirt. If you fill in the hole with dirt, then there is no hole. Evil is like the hole. God is like the dirt. Where God is, evil is not. Where God is not, evil is present.

That God knew that men would choose to disobey does not mean that God had evil in him. The choice to live with God or live without God was present from the beginning. God knows our hearts and knows our choices ahead of time. But he wants us to choose him. He will not force his will on any of us, because he gave us free will; to have no choice means we serve God out of obligation. That is not what God wants. God loves us, and wants us to choose him; but he also gave us that choice -- from the very beginning, when he created the tree of knowledge of good and evil -- in other words, from the very beginnnig, when he created free choice and gave it to men. Live with me in good. Or live without me in evil. Up to the point of disobedience, men knew only good -- men knew only life with God. After the disobedience, men knew evil -- men knew life absent God. And now, with knowledge of one and the other, men has a choice. God knows what choice we will make -- he knows our hearts. But he allows us to make the choice nonetheless.

[Angryamerican]

This has been rehashed 30 times at least in this thread. There is only one definite article "ho"="the" in a clause where two nouns are in the nominative "subject" form "theos" and "logos", so the noun with the definite article "ho"="the" is the subject. So "ho logos" means that "the word" is the subject of the clause. Therefore, "...the Word was God" is the correct translation

The only way to resolve this dispute is by what God said elsewhere. There are scholars on both sides of this disagreement and there is no way to prove each other wrong. So it is critical to see what is said elsewhere. I think there has been plenty said in the scriptures to disprove the theory of Jesus being God or part of a trinity.

If we are looking for words to explain our beliefs than we are going again'st this important scripture.

1Th 1:8 For from you hath sounded forth the word of the Lord, not only in Macedonia and Achaia, but in every place your faith to God-ward is gone forth; so that we need not to speak anything.

Or this one.

2Co 4:2 but we have renounced the hidden things of shame, not walking in craftiness, nor handling the word of God deceitfully; but by the manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God

or this one.

Mat 4:4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

So i ask you and everyone else in this thread do we need mans words to get to the truth or to explain God?

[Angryamerican]

This has been rehashed 30 times at least in this thread. There is only one definite article "ho"="the" in a clause where two nouns are in the nominative "subject" form "theos" and "logos", so the noun with the definite article "ho"="the" is the subject. So "ho logos" means that "the word" is the subject of the clause. Therefore, "...the Word was God" is the correct translation


I ask you did the apostles use your rules while writing the scriptures?

[Angryamerican]

Hey Sonny, not travelling this week?

No i suffered a minor stroke and the hospital did every test they could and said i am in perfect condition and they felt the minor stroke came from a blood clot from a recent surgery i had.

So they asked me to take a daily aspirin and i decided i could use a week off and here i am.

[Angryamerican]

You do realize that I was proving through scripture that GOD is omnipresent, omniscient, omnipotent. DRS said that God is not omnipresent.

Yeah since jesus is god than you should be able to show us, jesus is those things as well.

[Angryamerican]

So, in your eyes, God is a limited being?

Where did you get that ? God can do anything.

But i do have question's for you why does God allow evil?

God knows exactly who is and isn't gonna make it in to the new world why do we continue to live in this crazy world ?because he let's it run it's course he doesn't act on that knowledge.

And i still would like to know where it is shown jesus has these qualities since he is God?

[Angryamerican]

If you can forsee evil then yes you have evil inside you, part of our being imperfect.

Never said God can not travel if He so chooses but just as you are in place so is God.

God does not need to be every where in order for things to not be hidden from.

That is very good logic DRS, God did not know evil until he saw it thats why there was only one law to begin with in the garden.

[Fire Watch]

Yeah since jesus is god than you should be able to show us, jesus is those things as well.

Jesus is omniscient; for He could read thoughts (Mark 2:6-12). He knew Nathanael before He met him (John 1:47-50). He knows all things (John 21:17), and all wisdom and knowledge are hidden in Him (Colossians 2:3).

Jesus was and is omnipresent. For example, in John 3:13 Jesus referred to "the Son of man which is in heaven" even though He was still on earth. His omnipresence explains why He could say in the present tense while on earth, "Where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them" (Matthew 18:20). In other words, while the fulness of God's character was located in the human body of Jesus, the omnipresent Spirit of Jesus could not be so confined.

Jesus is omnipotent; He has all power, is the head of all principality and power, and is the Almighty (Matthew 28:18; Colossians 2:10; Revelation 1:8).

[Angryamerican]

Jesus is omniscient; for He could read thoughts (Mark 2:6-12). He knew Nathanael before He met him (John 1:47-50). He knows all things (John 21:17), and all wisdom and knowledge are hidden in Him (Colossians 2:3).



Jesus was and is omnipresent. For example, in John 3:13 Jesus referred to "the Son of man which is in heaven" even though He was still on earth. His omnipresence explains why He could say in the present tense while on earth, "Where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them" (Matthew 18:20). In other words, while the fulness of God's character was located in the human body of Jesus, the omnipresent Spirit of Jesus could not be so confined.



Jesus is omnipotent; He has all power, is the head of all principality and power, and is the Almighty (Matthew 28:18; Colossians 2:10; Revelation 1:8).

He didn't know the day nor hour only the father knew.


What if you are by yourself? Why only groups of three?



It says the head of the Christ is God. And all authority has been given to him from the father. All enemies were placed as a footstool to him by God. Jesus said the father is greater than himself.

I can get the verses for you but i think we have covered these things before.

[Fire Watch]

I can get the verses for you but i think we have covered these things before.
You asked, I answered, you spun...yeah, we've been here before.

[Angryamerican]

You asked, I answered, you spun...yeah, we've been here before.

How is it spinning if what i said was said in the scriptures ?

Those were not my words.

But the funny thing is and what i have been saying you use words to describe God and Jesus that don't appear in scripture and i am the one spinning ;) :rolleyes:

[Fire Watch]

How is it spinning if what i said was said in the scriptures ?

Those were not my words.

But the funny thing is and what i have been saying you use words to describe God and Jesus that don't appear in scripture and i am the one spinning ;) :rolleyes:
Just because the specific words themselves aren't there, doesn't mean the concept and ideas aren't. To come to your conclusions, you have to warp and twist scripture or use versions of scripture translated to agree with Arianism.

[drmilo]

So, in your eyes, God is a limited being?

Where did you get that ? God can do anything.

But i do have question's for you why does God allow evil?

God knows exactly who is and isn't gonna make it in to the new world why do we continue to live in this crazy world ?because he let's it run it's course he doesn't act on that knowledge.

And i still would like to know where it is shown jesus has these qualities since he is God?

AA, did you read my posts? I asked DRS if in his eyes God is a limited being. I asked him this because DRS claims that God is not omnipresent, nor is he omniscient. I don't know his stance on omnipotent.

If God, according to DRS, is not omnipresent or omniscient, then he is limited by some frame of reference, be it space or time. How is one limited by something that one creates?

You say God can do anything. I agree.

As to your question about why God allows evil, see post number 6959 for the long answer. The short of it is, we have free will. God desires us to choose to serve him, not to serve him out of obligation. God is good. Evil is the absence of good -- the absence of God. Our free will gives us the choice between serving God and living in God's presence, or not serving God. That is the choice between good and evil.

[Angryamerican]

Just because the specific words themselves aren't there, doesn't mean the concept and ideas aren't. To come to your conclusions, you have to warp and twist scripture or use versions of scripture translated to agree with Arianism.

You said i spun ,now show me what i spun, from the scriptures.

[Angryamerican]

Just because the specific words themselves aren't there, doesn't mean the concept and ideas aren't. To come to your conclusions, you have to warp and twist scripture or use versions of scripture translated to agree with Arianism.

I agree GOD is all three but we know Jesus is not. and God don't act on all three if he did this world would not be like it is.

So if jesus is not all three he can't be God.

[Angryamerican]

AA, did you read my posts? I asked DRS if in his eyes God is a limited being. I asked him this because DRS claims that God is not omnipresent, nor is he omniscient. I don't know his stance on omnipotent.

If God, according to DRS, is not omnipresent or omniscient, then he is limited by some frame of reference, be it space or time. How is one limited by something that one creates?

You say God can do anything. I agree.

As to your question about why God allows evil, see post number 6959 for the long answer. The short of it is, we have free will. God desires us to choose to serve him, not to serve him out of obligation. God is good. Evil is the absence of good -- the absence of God. Our free will gives us the choice between serving God and living in God's presence, or not serving God. That is the choice between good and evil.

Oh ok i agree with what you are saying i agree that God is all three but i don't see Christ as being all three as i posted earlier.

[Fire Watch]

I agree GOD is all three but we know Jesus is not.
No, you BELIEVE that Jesus isnt God. I believe the scripture declares it quite plainly. Dont ever include me in that we.

[Angryamerican]

No, you BELIEVE that Jesus isnt God. I believe the scripture declares it quite plainly. Dont ever include me in that we.

Please accept my apology wrong word. But i did post what was said in the scriptures and that shows Jesus as not being all knowing and that he was subjected to all things by God in other words it was given to him meaning he is less than the father which he affirms in the word by saying the father is greater than all and i think that includes jesus as well.

[Fire Watch]

Not when you understand the concept of the hypostatic union.

[Angryamerican]

Not when you understand the concept of the hypostatic union.

Did God teach you this hypostatic union or did you learn this concept from a man?

[Fire Watch]

Did God teach you this hypostatic union or did you learn this concept from a man?

God, through revelation following years of personal study.

The Godhead/Christology debates of early church history were based on soteriological (salvation) considerations all centered around the question What must Christ be in order for Him to do what He did (provide salvation for fallen mankind)? It was understood that for Christ to do a particular something, He must be a particular somebody. There are particular constructions of Christ’s person that destroy His ability to save us. Every Christology that has been rejected by the church has been rejected for soteriological reasons. The Christology that has been accepted has not been accepted because it can explain everything about the incarnation (which is impossible), but because it was the best construction through which to understand how it was that Jesus could claim what He claimed, and do what He did. This is what the trinity is, and how it came to be..and imo it is incorrect.

The fathers of Chalcedon understood that if Christ was not fully divine His death would not be sufficient to atone for the sins of all mankind because it would not have infinite value, thus causing them to reject Arianism.
Apollinarianism was rejected because it denied Christ a genuine human psyche. The Cappadocians (and others) argued that if man fell through the faculties of a human psyche, man had to be redeemed through the faculties of a human mind as well. Jesus had to had to overcome the temptation man succumbed to with the same faculties in which he succumbed to them. For Jesus to redeem every aspect of human existence demands that He possess every aspect of human existence, including the human psyche.

Adoptionism and Nestorianism were rejected because both views were insufficient to ground Christ’s deity in reality. Jesus was not God, but a man who was really really really close to God! But no matter how close the human person may be to the divine person, Jesus is never actually God Himself.

Monophysitism was rejected because it overwhelmed and consumed the humanity in order to preserve the deity. This makes Christ sub-human, and is deficient for similar reasons to Apollinarianism.

Eutycheanism was rejected because in the incarnation two realities are fused into one new reality, making Jesus neither God nor man, but some new thing. Only if Jesus was both God and man in one existence, however, could He be the mediator and accomplish salvation on our behalf.

The Fathers understood that if Christ was not genuinely and fully man He could not redeem fallen humanity, and thus rejected Monophysitism, Apollinarianism, and Arianism. Furthermore, they understood that if the full humanity and full deity of Christ did not relate in a certain way, even though Christ was fully God and fully man, He could not truly mediate our salvation, and thus rejected Monophysitism, Eutycheanism, and Nestorianism.

All of the above views have devastating soteriological ramifications, and that is why they have been rejected in the past, and why I believe they must still be rejected. A Nestorian Christ cannot save us; a deified man cannot save us; a divinely adopted man cannot save us. Apart from soteriological considerations Christology would not be a relevant issue. It is for soteriological reasons that the church has held, and should continue to hold a Chalcedonian Christology.

So in doing Christology we work somewhat backwards from what is necessary to accomplish our redemption, to what must Christ be, to the nature of the incarnation that would be necessary to make Christ that way. This is not to say that scripture is not the driving force behind Christology, but it is to emphasize that the guiding force of Christology is the soteriological question

[Angryamerican]

God, through revelation following years of personal study.

Well i would never knock someone for personal study.

I do believe God answered the questions we needed answered but we don't know everything and as deep as God is we will never know everything about him.

[Angryamerican]

God, through revelation following years of personal study.

The Godhead/Christology debates of early church history were based on soteriological (salvation) considerations all centered around the question What must Christ be in order for Him to do what He did (provide salvation for fallen mankind)? It was understood that for Christ to do a particular something, He must be a particular somebody. There are particular constructions of Christ’s person that destroy His ability to save us. Every Christology that has been rejected by the church has been rejected for soteriological reasons. The Christology that has been accepted has not been accepted because it can explain everything about the incarnation (which is impossible), but because it was the best construction through which to understand how it was that Jesus could claim what He claimed, and do what He did. This is what the trinity is, and how it came to be..and imo it is incorrect.

The fathers of Chalcedon understood that if Christ was not fully divine His death would not be sufficient to atone for the sins of all mankind because it would not have infinite value, thus causing them to reject Arianism.
Apollinarianism was rejected because it denied Christ a genuine human psyche. The Cappadocians (and others) argued that if man fell through the faculties of a human psyche, man had to be redeemed through the faculties of a human mind as well. Jesus had to had to overcome the temptation man succumbed to with the same faculties in which he succumbed to them. For Jesus to redeem every aspect of human existence demands that He possess every aspect of human existence, including the human psyche.

Adoptionism and Nestorianism were rejected because both views were insufficient to ground Christ’s deity in reality. Jesus was not God, but a man who was really really really close to God! But no matter how close the human person may be to the divine person, Jesus is never actually God Himself.

Monophysitism was rejected because it overwhelmed and consumed the humanity in order to preserve the deity. This makes Christ sub-human, and is deficient for similar reasons to Apollinarianism.

Eutycheanism was rejected because in the incarnation two realities are fused into one new reality, making Jesus neither God nor man, but some new thing. Only if Jesus was both God and man in one existence, however, could He be the mediator and accomplish salvation on our behalf.

The Fathers understood that if Christ was not genuinely and fully man He could not redeem fallen humanity, and thus rejected Monophysitism, Apollinarianism, and Arianism. Furthermore, they understood that if the full humanity and full deity of Christ did not relate in a certain way, even though Christ was fully God and fully man, He could not truly mediate our salvation, and thus rejected Monophysitism, Eutycheanism, and Nestorianism.

All of the above views have devastating soteriological ramifications, and that is why they have been rejected in the past, and why I believe they must still be rejected. A Nestorian Christ cannot save us; a deified man cannot save us; a divinely adopted man cannot save us. Apart from soteriological considerations Christology would not be a relevant issue. It is for soteriological reasons that the church has held, and should continue to hold a Chalcedonian Christology.

So in doing Christology we work somewhat backwards from what is necessary to accomplish our redemption, to what must Christ be, to the nature of the incarnation that would be necessary to make Christ that way. This is not to say that scripture is not the driving force behind Christology, but it is to emphasize that the guiding force of Christology is the soteriological question

To me that would be like a judge would have to taste his own punishment before he could hand down punishment OR the judge would have to experience life of a criminal before he could judge a criminal.

[Fire Watch]

To me that would be like a judge would have to taste his own punishment before he could hand down punishment OR the judge would have to experience life of a criminal before he could judge a criminal.
If Jesus was only a man, that would have to mean that God gave credence and gravitas to human sacrifice. I cant see it, sorry.

[Angryamerican]

If Jesus was only a man, that would have to mean that God gave credence and gravitas to human sacrifice. I cant see it, sorry.

But didn't God give credence to animal sacrifice for sins ?

Isn't a human worth more to God ?

[DRS]

No i suffered a minor stroke and the hospital did every test they could and said i am in perfect condition and they felt the minor stroke came from a blood clot from a recent surgery i had.

So they asked me to take a daily aspirin and i decided i could use a week off and here i am.

Sorry to hear that, take care of yourself.

[DRS]

AA, did you read my posts? I asked DRS if in his eyes God is a limited being. I asked him this because DRS claims that God is not omnipresent, nor is he omniscient. I don't know his stance on omnipotent.

If God, according to DRS, is not omnipresent or omniscient, then he is limited by some frame of reference, be it space or time. How is one limited by something that one creates?

You say God can do anything. I agree.

As to your question about why God allows evil, see post number 6959 for the long answer. The short of it is, we have free will. God desires us to choose to serve him, not to serve him out of obligation. God is good. Evil is the absence of good -- the absence of God. Our free will gives us the choice between serving God and living in God's presence, or not serving God. That is the choice between good and evil.

I have the ability to know the movie's ending I rent just as God has the ability to forsee the future if He chooses to, is one possiblity for god knowing the future events.

Another possibility is God by looking into your Dna can tell what we will do and then can follow the actions of that blood line as it reproduces over and over again.

[Tucson Jim]

Everybody read what you wrote and you know the apostles and deciples did not believe Jesus was God because he wasn't God quit spinning.

I showed numerous quotes from the NT, authored by the apostles, showing that Jesus is called God and has the attributes of God.

I don't believe I am the one "spinning" here . . .

[Tucson Jim]

I believe both sides of the issue on John 1:1 have been voiced many times over.

I have posted my view on this verse many times as well,I got tired of rehashing the same arguement over and over which I think is pointless as one verse in scripture must be understood in light of the rest of scripture no matter what side of this debate one is on.
An important distinction must be made: there are those (the vast majority) who marginally accept the Trinity either because they are not really familiar with the Bible, and trust their teachers and spiritual leaders, or they are intimidated by “the system” and just go along with it. There are others who aggressively uphold the Trinity as the very cornerstone of Christianity, and go out of their way to warn those who even think of straying from historical orthodoxy. In any case, I love my Trinitarian brothers and sisters and welcome opportunities to fellowship with them for our mutual profit. But I am not naïve about what committed Trinitarians are taught to think about those of us who teach an alternate view. Nor can I be hopeful that we can develop successful, cooperative, working relationships with them as long as they think me to be heretic.This saddens me deeply and feel the unity of the body of Christ is what is hurt the most.
I have been told in a round about way that I may not even be saved,That is no problem but for the point that we are to build up and not tear down.
I pray that unity in the body and walking in love will be that common ground we can all stand on and Christ Jesus being the foundation.

But unity has to be based on truth, doesn't it Warrior? Otherwise, we would be forced into unity with any group that wanted to call itself "Christian" - like that guy (in South America I think) who believes he's a modern incarnation of Jesus Christ!

If we all say we love Jesus, but some of us think Jesus lives at their church headquarters and drives a Jaguar, what common ground do we have?

On the other hand, I can sort of see your point in the sense that I don't think we should break fellowship over pre-trib or mid-trib. It should be denial of the central beliefs of the faith.

Historically, a central belief of the faith has been the deity of Christ, which has been the focus of this thread.

Would you really feel comfortable fellowshipping with Trinitarians, singing with them, taking communion with them Warrior?

It would seem not since you now have your own fellowship of like-minded people, and have stopped attending Trinitarian churches because you think they are following "the teachings of men".

I think the reason you have done this is because you agree with me - we have to draw the line at the central beliefs of the faith.

[DispensationalJim]

Good thoughts, T-Jim.

And thank you, Warrior, for sharing in such a heart-felt way.

I have heard of churches splitting over very minor issues (color of carpet or drapes, etc.), so I would say that a major DOCTRINAL issue such as the deity of Christ would cause a serious rift among the membership.

Some preacher put it this way, "A Christian ministry cannot teach two opposing doctrines at the same time and survive for long."

From statistics I have seen, the number one church-splitting issue in our day has been "speaking in tongues." But, going back to the early churches, there is little doubt in my mind that the deity of Christ was the most divisive issue.

I feel it is good for us all to be able to express our differing views on such a doctrine, but to do it in as loving a way as we can.

D-Jim

[Angryamerican]

I showed numerous quotes from the NT, authored by the apostles, showing that Jesus is called God and has the attributes of God.

I don't believe I am the one "spinning" here . . .

I give you Jesus is like God in many ways, but are they the same being we know that men knew who Jesus was and said no man has ever seen or beheld God at any time. and there is no scripture that states it was so because Jesus was a man.

If Jesus is God the apostles and deciples were misleading with what they stated about God and Jesus.

[Angryamerican]

I showed numerous quotes from the NT, authored by the apostles, showing that Jesus is called God and has the attributes of God.

I don't believe I am the one "spinning" here . . .

Than please explain why the apostles and deciples that broke bread with Christ and lived with him at their side for three years would say things that contradict the idea of Christ being God?

[DispensationalJim]

This is what the Apostle of the Gentiles, Paul, said about Jesus:

Phil. 2:5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be EQUAL WITH GOD: 7 But MADE HIMSELF OF NO REPUTATION, and TOOK UPON HIM THE FORM OF A SERVANT, AND WAS MADE IN THE LIKENESS OF MEN: 8 And being found in fashion AS A MAN, he HUMBLED HIMSELF, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

He also referred to Jesus Christ as GOD MY SAVIOUR several times!

And this is what the apostle John said:
• John 1:1 ¶ In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word WAS GOD. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. 3 ALL things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. 4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men. ...14 And the Word was MADE FLESH, AND DWELT AMONG US, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Do we need to keep repeating these verses from God's Word so you won't forget that God made Himself into a MAN???!!!

That is the resaon why some of the apostles spoke of Jesus as a man. Because He/God/Jesus MADE HIMSELF INTO A MAN SO HE COULD DIE FOR OUR SINS!!

D-Jim

[Tucson Jim]

I give you Jesus is like God in many ways,

OK, since you recognize that fact, then you have to also deal with the scriptural fact that God said there is no one like Him:

Many asked the question, or made the statement, with the obvious implied truth that there in none like God:

O LORD, there is none like You, nor is there any God besides You, according to all that we have heard with our ears. 1 Chron 17:20

He said, "O LORD, the God of Israel, there is no god like You in heaven or on earth, keeping covenant and showing lovingkindness to Your servants who walk before You with all their heart; 2 Chron 6:14

O LORD God of hosts, who is like You, O mighty LORD?Your faithfulness also surrounds You. Psalm 89:8

Who is like the LORD our God,Who is enthroned on high, Psalm 113:5

To whom then will you liken God?Or what likeness will you compare with Him? Isa 40:18

God answers in Isaiah:

'Who is like Me? Let him proclaim and declare it;Yes, let him recount it to Me in order,From the time that I established the ancient nation.And let them declare to them the things that are coming, And the events that are going to take place." Isa 44:7

Remember the former things long past,For I am God, and there is no other;I am God, and there is no one like Me, Isa 46:9

And yet, as we have shown, the scriptures teach that Jesus is exactly like God in so many respects, the conclusion that Jesus is God is inescapable.

Here are the scriptural references I previously posted showing that scripture speaks alike about the Father and Son in so many respects:

************************************************** *****************

God: From everlasting to everlasting thou art God – Ps. 90:2
Jesus: Whose goings forth have been from old, from everlasting – Micah 5:2

God: Thy throne is established of old: thou art from everlasting – Ps 93:2
Jesus: Unto the Son He saith, Thy throne O God, is for ever and ever – Heb 1:8

God: I am the first, and I am the last and besides me there is no God – Isa 44:6
Jesus: I am the first and the last : I am he that liveth and was dead – Rev 1:17-18

God: Do I not fill heaven and earth? Saith the Lord - Jer 23:24
Jesus: He that descended is the same also that ascended up, far above all heavens, that he might fill all things. - Eph 4:10

God: I am Jehovah, I change not. - Malachi 3:6
Jesus: Jesus Christ, the same yesterday, today and forever. - Heb 13:8

God: Canst thou by searching find out God? - Job 11:7
Jesus: No man knoweth the Son but the Father. Matt. 11:27

God: O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and the knowledge of God, his ways past finding out. - Rom 11:33
Jesus: The unsearchable riches of Christ. - Eph 3:8

God: Thy footsteps are not known - Ps 77:19
Jesus: The love of Christ which passeth knowledge - Eph 3:19

God: I am Jehovah thy God, the Holy One of Israel - Isa 43:3
Jesus: Ye denied the Holy One and the Just - Acts 3:14

God: A God of truth and without iniquity - Deut 32:4
Jesus: I am the truth - John 14:6 Without sin - Heb 4:15

God: In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth - Gen 1:1
Jesus: In the beginning was the Word. All things were made by Him. - John 1:1, 3

God: I am Jehovah, that maketh all things; that stretched forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself - Isa 44:24.
Jesus: By him were all things created, that are in heaven and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities or powers - Col. 1:16

God: The Lord hath made all things for himself - Prov. 16:4
Jesus: All things were created by him and for him - Col 1:16

God: Thou preservest them all - Neh 9:6
Jesus: By him all things consist - Col 1:17

God: The King of Kings and Lord of lords - 1 Tim 6:15
Jesus: King of Kings and Lord of Lords.- Rev 19:16.

God: Thy Kingdom is an everlasting Kingdom, and thy dominion endureth thoughout all generations - Psalm 145:13
Jesus: His dominion is an everlasting dominion . . . And His kingdom that which shall not be destroyed - Dan. 7:14

God: Thou, even thou only, knowest the hearts of all the children of men - 1 Kings 8:39.
Jesus: All the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts. Rev 2:23

God: Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right? - Gen 18:25
Jesus: We must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ. - 2 Cor 5:10

God: His Kingdom ruleth over all. - Psalm 103:19
Jesus: He is Lord of all. - Acts 10:36

God: Vengeance is Mine; I will repay, saith the Lord - Rom. 12:19
Jesus: Taking vengeance on them that know not God. - 2 Thess 1:7-8

God: To whom then will ye liken God? - Isaiah 40:18
Jesus:. . . . The image of the invisible God. - Col 1:15;
He who has seen Me has seen the Father . . . John 14:9

God: "This is what the LORD says— your Redeemer, who formed you in the womb: I am the LORD, who has made all things, who alone stretched out the heavens, who spread out the earth by myself,” – Isa 44:24
Jesus: For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him. 1 - Col 1:16

God: I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour. - Isa 43:11
Jesus: And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins. - Matt 1:21

God: I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour. - Isa 43:11
Jesus: But we believe that through the grace of the LORD Jesus Christ we shall be saved, - Acts 15:11

God: I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour. - Isa 43:11
Jesus: He became the Author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him – Heb 5:9

God: I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour. - Isa 43:11
Jesus: He is able to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by Him – Heb 7:25

God: I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour. - Isa 43:11
Jesus: Neither is there salvation in any other; for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved – Acts 4:12

God: With thee is the fountain of life: in thy light shall we see light – Psalm 36:9
Jesus: In Him was life: and the life was the light of men – John 1:4

God: He will swallow up death in victory – Isa. 25:8
Jesus: Our Savior Jesus Christ who has abolished death – 2 Tim 1:10

God: I will ransom them from the power of the grave; I will redeem them from the power of death: O death I will be thy plagues; O grave, I will be thy destruction –Hos 13:14
Jesus: That through death he (Jesus) might destroy him that had the power of death,
that is, the devil; and deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetimes subject to bondage – Heb 2:14-15

************************************************** ****************

So . . . God says there is no one like Him, but the Bible says Jesus is exactly like Him!

but are they the same being

Christians throughout the centuries have concluded that they are the same Being, the same God. There is only one God, there is no one like God, but . . . Jesus is called "God" and is spoken of in Scripture in the same terms as God. He is even worshiped by "every creature", just like God, in Revelation! The conclusion would have to be that, somehow, both the Father and Son ARE the one God.

we know that men knew who Jesus was and said no man has ever seen or beheld God at any time. and there is no scripture that states it was so because Jesus was a man.

If Jesus is God the apostles and deciples were misleading with what they stated about God and Jesus.

I don't think they were misleading - I just think people read into it what they expect to see.

Given all the scriptural evidence for the Deity of Christ, the conclusion seems inescapable to me.

[Fire Watch]

Jehovah Jesus
Almighty-Genesis 17:1 Almighty-Revelation 1:8
I AM-Exodus 3:14-16 I am-John 8:58
Rock-Psalm 18:2; 28:1 Rock-I Corinthians 10:4
Horn of Salvation-Psalm 18:2 Horn of Salvation-Luke 1:69
Shepherd-Psalm 23:1; Isaiah 40:10-11 Great Shepherd, Chief Shepherd, -Hebrews 13:20; I Peter 5:4
King of Glory-Psalm 24:7-10 Lord of Glory-I Corinthians 2:8
Light-Psalm 27:1; Isaiah 60:19 Light-John 1:4-9; John 8:12; Revelation 21:23
Salvation-Psalm 27:1; Isaiah 12:2 Only Salvation-Acts 4:10-12
Lord of lords-Psalm 136:3 Lord of lords-Revelation 19:16
Holy One-Isaiah 12:6 Holy One-Acts 2:27
Lawgiver-Isaiah 33:22 Testator of the First Testament (the Law)-Hebrews 9:14-17
Judge-Isaiah 33:22 Judge-Micah 5:1; Acts 10:42
First and Last-Isaiah 41:4; 44:6; 48:12 Alpha and Omega, First and Last-Revelation 1:8; 22:13
Only Savior-Isaiah 43:11; 45:21; 60:16 Savior-Titus 2:13; 3:6
Giver of Spiritual Water-Isaiah 44:3; 55:1 Giver of Living Water-John 4:10-14; 7:38-39
King of Israel-Isaiah 44:6 King of Israel, King of kings-John 1:49; Revelation 19:16
Only Creator-Isaiah 44:24; 45:8; 48:13 Creator of everything-John 1:3; Colossians 1:16
Only Just God-Isaiah 45:21 Just One-Acts 7:52
Redeemer-Isaiah 54:5; 60:16 Redeemer-Galatians 3:13; Revelation 5:9

[Angryamerican]

Wow you guys have been busy, i am off to take the kids to the fair but i will address what has been posted i'll try tonight and i'm sure warrior and DRS and maybe harmonious can address much that has been posted. It really is not that hard to decifer scripture because it doesn't contradict itself but in the meantime please explain why in 1st john and john 1:18 why an apostle would say no man has beheld or seen God at any time since they did see Jesus and knew him as the son of God NOT God Almighty?

[Warrior4God]

Wow you guys have been busy, i am off to take the kids to the fair but i will address what has been posted i'll try tonight and i'm sure warrior and DRS and maybe harmonious can address much that has been posted. It really is not that hard to decifer scripture because it doesn't contradict itself but in the meantime please explain why in 1st john and john 1:18 why an apostle would say no man has beheld or seen God at any time since they did see Jesus and knew him as the son of God NOT God Almighty?

It comes down to what stands,Gods Word and that contradictions are not in it or mans doctrine that spins these contradictions into a belief.

Often a person can persuade others by convincing them that he is convinced, and not by providing supporting evidence. To the extent one is swayed by a person’s sincerity apart from evidence he is acting irrationally. The Berean believers were not overly awed by the Apostle Paul’s convictions, and rather than being thought foolish and skeptical, Scripture calls them “noble.”

Acts 17:11 (KJV)
These [Bereans] were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the Word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

The Apostle Paul was intensely sincere in his desire to go to Jerusalem, and had persuaded himself that he was right. Although God warned him repeatedly not to go, he was determined that it was something he had to do, and he had his course of action well rationalized. Rationalization is quite different from rational thinking, however. When we rationalize, we start with our assumptions and then come up with reasons to do what we already want to do or did. Rational thinking is to think about one’s course of action before acting based upon whether such action will be profitable, in one’s best interests, the will of God, etc.

Acts 20:22-24 (KJV)
(22) And now, behold, I go bound in the spirit unto Jerusalem, not knowing the things that shall befall me there:
(23) Save that the Holy Ghost witnesseth in every city, saying that bonds and afflictions abide me.
(24) But none of these things move me, neither count I my life dear unto myself, so that I might finish my course with joy, and the ministry, which I have received of the Lord Jesus, to testify the gospel of the grace of God.

Was he sincere? He certainly was, but he was also dead wrong, and nearly lost his life outside of God’s will. He allowed himself to be deceived by his own sincerity. To the extent one believes something without evidence or justification but solely or primarily on the basis of sincerity, he acts irrationally. Had Paul been logical in his thinking at this point, he would have looked more objectively at his proposed course of action and weighed the benefits and the consequences before he made a decision. As it was, though, he erred because he so believed that he was right that he blinded himself to the many reasons that were presented to him not to go. He went "bound in the spirit," indicating that God was trying to tell him not to go. His illogical thinking, swayed by this fallacy of manner, prevented him from receiving the guidance he needed from God.

We can conclude from this and many other biblical records that logical thinking is often a necessary condition to receiving revelation. This means that we not be deceived by anyone’s appearance or sincerity, even our own. Sometimes self-deception is difficult to overcome precisely because we are blinded by our own sincerity and “good intentions.” Logical reasoning helps us get to the truth, however painful it may be in the short term.

[Warrior4God]

Reasons why I see the Trinity and Jesus being God not even close to scriptural.

Words that are not in the Bible may not be used as the basis for explaining central doctrinal beliefs.


Using mathematics to describe concepts that when stated clearly defy the laws of mathematics is not allowed.


A belief or doctrine may not contain within itself ideas that contradict each other.


The word fully should be used only in the sense of 100%, or completely. Any other usage of the word defies the English language. Using the word in the first place means the person accepts the standards of English, and it is not allowed that they later defy them.


Words may not be created to describe biblical ideas; the Bible provides the words and the ideas.


A belief may not be claimed to be so obvious that it is not even mentioned in the Bible, then said to be a central tenet of faith.


Defense of a belief should not be based on a verse that is only translated as a defense in a certain version of the Bible. The verse should also not be used if it is shown to be an addition by later writers to the original text.


A belief must not be formed through a filter of “the necessity of mystery.” God did not reveal the Word that people should be confused.


A belief may not be expounded solely from one book or area of the Bible while the rest offers it no support. Context means the entire Bible, not just the passage of interest.


A belief should answer more questions than it raises, biblically speaking.


A belief should be congruent with the Old Testament and the New Testament.


People should understand what they state as their belief; a book or another person is not a valid “understanding” of what a person believes.


Evangelism should not hide the true nature of the belief that is expressed. A person should come to faith based on a full understanding of what the evangelizer is saying. A person is not to be brought to faith by one standard, then later shown a more “complete” understanding that is claimed to be essential.

[ralittlefield]

Reasons why I see the Trinity and Jesus being God not even close to scriptural.

Words that are not in the Bible may not be used as the basis for explaining central doctrinal beliefs.


Using mathematics to describe concepts that when stated clearly defy the laws of mathematics is not allowed.


A belief or doctrine may not contain within itself ideas that contradict each other.


The word fully should be used only in the sense of 100%, or completely. Any other usage of the word defies the English language. Using the word in the first place means the person accepts the standards of English, and it is not allowed that they later defy them.


Words may not be created to describe biblical ideas; the Bible provides the words and the ideas.


A belief may not be claimed to be so obvious that it is not even mentioned in the Bible, then said to be a central tenet of faith.


Defense of a belief should not be based on a verse that is only translated as a defense in a certain version of the Bible. The verse should also not be used if it is shown to be an addition by later writers to the original text.


A belief must not be formed through a filter of “the necessity of mystery.” God did not reveal the Word that people should be confused.


A belief may not be expounded solely from one book or area of the Bible while the rest offers it no support. Context means the entire Bible, not just the passage of interest.


A belief should answer more questions than it raises, biblically speaking.


A belief should be congruent with the Old Testament and the New Testament.


People should understand what they state as their belief; a book or another person is not a valid “understanding” of what a person believes.


Evangelism should not hide the true nature of the belief that is expressed. A person should come to faith based on a full understanding of what the evangelizer is saying. A person is not to be brought to faith by one standard, then later shown a more “complete” understanding that is claimed to be essential.

It seems to me that much of your denial of the Trinity is based on you inability to understand it on a human level. It does not seem logical to you. Doing so, you limit God to what you can reason.

Explain to me how God can exist before time existed.

Explain to me how God can exist outside the confines of space, with no dimensions.

Explain to me how God can know all things, even those that exist only in the future.

[Fire Watch]

Jehovah-jireh (provider) Jesus is ourProvider (of the sacrifice) Hebrews 10:10-12

Jehovah-rapha (healer)Jesus is ourHealer James 5:14-15

Jehovah-nissi (banner, victory)Jesus is ourVictory I Corinthians 15:57

Jehovah-m'kaddesh (sanctifier) Jesus is ourSanctifier Ephesians 5:26

Jehovah-shalom (peace)Jesus is ourPeace John 14:27

Jehovah-sabaoth (Lord of hosts)Jesus is ourLord of Hosts James 5:4-7
Jehovah-elyon (most high) Jesus isMost High Luke 1:32, 76, 78

Jehovah-raah (shepherd)Jesus is ourShepherd John 10:11

Jehovah-hoseenu (maker)Jesus is ourMaker John 1:3

Jehovah-tsidkenu (Righteousness)Jesus is ourrighteousness I Corinthians 1:30

Jehovah-shammah (present our )Jesus isEver Present One Matthew 28:20

[drmilo]

Reasons why I see the Trinity and Jesus being God not even close to scriptural.

Words that are not in the Bible may not be used as the basis for explaining central doctrinal beliefs.




Then we can't use the Bible to explain anything because the word "bible" is not in the bible.

Just because a word does not appear in the bible doesn't mean you can't use that word to describe a concept that is in the bible. It is shown in the Bible that God is all knowing, but the word omniscient does not appear in the bible; it is shown in the Bible that God is all powerful, but the word omnipotent does not appear in the Bible; it is shown in the Bible that God is ever present, but the word omnipresent is not in the Bible. That God is omnipresent, omniscient, and omnipotent would be central doctrinal beliefs, no, since we're talking about the nature of who God is? Yet those words are not in the Bible. So, instead of using those words, we use "all knowing"; "all powerful"; "ever present." Words and languages develop over time. Just because a word does not appear in the Bible does not mean that the meaning of that word does not appear in the Bible, or the concept described by that word does not appear in the Bible -- but according to you we can't use any words that are not in the Bible?

[Tucson Jim]

Then we can't use the Bible to explain anything because the word "bible" is not in the bible.

Just because a word does not appear in the bible doesn't mean you can't use that word to describe a concept that is in the bible. It is shown in the Bible that God is all knowing, but the word omniscient does not appear in the bible; it is shown in the Bible that God is all powerful, but the word omnipotent does not appear in the Bible; it is shown in the Bible that God is ever present, but the word omnipresent is not in the Bible. That God is omnipresent, omniscient, and omnipotent would be central doctrinal beliefs, no, since we're talking about the nature of who God is? Yet those words are not in the Bible. So, instead of using those words, we use "all knowing"; "all powerful"; "ever present." Words and languages develop over time. Just because a word does not appear in the Bible does not mean that the meaning of that word does not appear in the Bible, or the concept described by that word does not appear in the Bible -- but according to you we can't use any words that are not in the Bible?

Your Godly patience is truly inspiring!