Should You Believe In The Trinity?

[DRS]

Again as Jesus the Human He had a beginning and was not self existent we agree.

As Logos He always was with God. John does not say in the beginning God created the Logos. The way it reads is: IN the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and was God.

Proverbs 8 shows there was a time when Jesus was not.

[DRS]

Thats interesting because Genesis says let us make man in our image.
Elohim is plural.
and Immanuel means God with us - which was the prophecy.

So is scripture wrong or man?

There were all sorts of heavenly bodies present at creation.

Elohim is also applied to men and angels.

[HisServant]

Actualy Isreal collectively is called God's first born long before Jesus showed up. Then there's all the teachings that say human sacrifice is forbidden. Why would god in the flesh do that which he has commanded to be forbidden?

Great question. Not sure if I have the answer but my only guess would be that God is the only one who gives life and takes it. He is sovereign. He rules and reigns. We don't question God.

Gen 3:15 foretells of Jesus long before Israel was ever around. It also calls Isreal the bride or wife of God.

[HisServant]

There were all sorts of heavenly bodies present at creation.

Elohim is also applied to men and angels.

so you think Angels are in God's image?
That God created Angels and then told them I'm going to make man in MY and your image? And that they had a hand in creating man?

[DRS]

so you think Angels are in God's image?
That God created Angels and then told them I'm going to make man in MY and your image? And that they had a hand in creating man?

We have no idea what role the angels played in creation, we do know that all things were created through Jesus after he was created, we know the angels were created before man also.

[DRS]

Actualy Isreal collectively is called God's first born long before Jesus showed up. Then there's all the teachings that say human sacrifice is forbidden. Why would god in the flesh do that which he has commanded to be forbidden?

When Jesus died faithfully it was not human sacrifice for the sake of human sacrifice.

Jesus had to be put death because as a perfect human he would have never died. But because Adam sinned and death enterned into mankind an adoptive father last Adam was needed to have sons who would be without sin and live as God intended. This is why it could not be God Himself it had to be a servant, something equal to Adam.

[Chill-Factor]

Proverbs 8 shows there was a time when Jesus was not.
If you're going to use Proverbs 8, to deny your Lord, God and Savior, then perhaps you can tell me, who is this Prudence that dwells with Wisdom. No one who uses this passage, seems to know Prudence, perhaps you do.

You can also supply chapter and verse that details when, and by what means Jesus was created. My goodness, even satan's creation is detailed in the scriptures, but we're suppose to take your word that Christ is a creature. Apparently, that's what you did, when you embraced this creature Jesus false doctrine. Prove your created Jesus belief, with the word of God.
Not everyone is capable of ignoring scripture... some of us are not afraid to accept "all" of God's word. Only believers in erroneous doctrines discard scripture!!!

Keep in mind, Micah prophesised the Messiah would be from everlasting. The very same "everlasting-ness" that's applied to the Father. Are you prepared to acknowledge, God the Father did not always exist?

This is my first time posting here, so I hope this posts correctly.

[maddogg]

If you're going to use Proverbs 8, to deny your Lord, God and Savior, then perhaps you can tell me, who is this Prudence that dwells with Wisdom. No one who uses this passage, seems to know Prudence, perhaps you do.

You can also supply chapter and verse that details when, and by what means Jesus was created. My goodness, even satan's creation is detailed in the scriptures, but we're suppose to take your word that Christ is a creature. Apparently, that's what you did, when you embraced this creature Jesus false doctrine. Prove your created Jesus belief, with the word of God.
Not everyone is capable of ignoring scripture... some of us are not afraid to accept "all" of God's word. Only believers in erroneous doctrines discard scripture!!!

Keep in mind, Micah prophesised the Messiah would be from everlasting. The very same "everlasting-ness" that's applied to the Father. Are you prepared to acknowledge, God the Father did not always exist?

This is my first time posting here, so I hope this posts correctly.Good first post. Be prepared to be attacked.

[Fire Watch]

If you're going to use Proverbs 8, to deny your Lord, God and Savior, then perhaps you can tell me, who is this Prudence that dwells with Wisdom. No one who uses this passage, seems to know Prudence, perhaps you do.

You can also supply chapter and verse that details when, and by what means Jesus was created. My goodness, even satan's creation is detailed in the scriptures, but we're suppose to take your word that Christ is a creature. Apparently, that's what you did, when you embraced this creature Jesus false doctrine. Prove your created Jesus belief, with the word of God.
Not everyone is capable of ignoring scripture... some of us are not afraid to accept "all" of God's word. Only believers in erroneous doctrines discard scripture!!!

Keep in mind, Micah prophesised the Messiah would be from everlasting. The very same "everlasting-ness" that's applied to the Father. Are you prepared to acknowledge, God the Father did not always exist?

This is my first time posting here, so I hope this posts correctly.
Welcome. Great first post. Buy some BC powder.

[Constantine the Great]

If you're going to use Proverbs 8, to deny your Lord, God and Savior, then perhaps you can tell me, who is this Prudence that dwells with Wisdom. No one who uses this passage, seems to know Prudence, perhaps you do.

You can also supply chapter and verse that details when, and by what means Jesus was created. My goodness, even satan's creation is detailed in the scriptures, but we're suppose to take your word that Christ is a creature. Apparently, that's what you did, when you embraced this creature Jesus false doctrine. Prove your created Jesus belief, with the word of God.
Not everyone is capable of ignoring scripture... some of us are not afraid to accept "all" of God's word. Only believers in erroneous doctrines discard scripture!!!

Keep in mind, Micah prophesised the Messiah would be from everlasting. The very same "everlasting-ness" that's applied to the Father. Are you prepared to acknowledge, God the Father did not always exist?

This is my first time posting here, so I hope this posts correctly.

:clap:

[Haplo]

Thats interesting because Genesis says let us make man in our image.
Elohim is plural.
and Immanuel means God with us - which was the prophecy.

So is scripture wrong or man?How does that jibe with all the other old testament scripture where god says he is one? All those verses where god uses singular pronouns like "I" "me" "mine"? And those others where people talk about him similarly "he" "his"?

Is there any other verse where god uses "us" or "our"? If not what does that indicate to you?

[Haplo]

Thats interesting because Genesis says let us make man in our image.
Elohim is plural.
and Immanuel means God with us - which was the prophecy.

So is scripture wrong or man?So in the verse that says "where two or more are gathered in my name I am with you" (apologies if I don't have the quote exactly right) is Jesus or God physicaly in the room? If Jesus was God in flesh, then God submitted to God's will. And on the cross God had to turn away from looking at God because God had taken on all the sins of the world and God can't look upon sin. Let's reword this verse with that in mind "I am the way the truth and the life. No man comes unto me except by me"

[Haplo]

Great question. Not sure if I have the answer but my only guess would be that God is the only one who gives life and takes it. He is sovereign. He rules and reigns. We don't question God.

Gen 3:15 foretells of Jesus long before Israel was ever around. It also calls Isreal the bride or wife of God.What's with the prayer when Jesus went off alone before being crucified? If Jesus was God then it could "not my will but my will be done"

How is one part of the whole lesser and submissive to another part?

[prisonchaplain]

Actually Jehovahs Witnesses ARE true christians. Jehovahs witnesses worship the god that Jesus worships, that of course would be his father Jehovah. A christian is a follower of Christ and his teachings. Mainstream so called christians do not follow Christs' teachings.

Your primary focus is to witness of Jehovah. So, your official name is appropriate.

The rest of us Jesus-followers mostly focus on Jesus--yes to the point of worship. So, we rightly proclaim we are "Christians."

And yes, I do agree that one side is right, and the other is quite wrong. And, as I commented to Harmonious, I doubt there is any compromise or halfway meeting point between our faith systems.

[prisonchaplain]

When the devil ask Jesus for an act of worship Jesus quotes Deuteronomy 6:. 13*Jehovah your God you should fear, and him you should serve, and by his name you should swear.

I've never denied worship of Jehovah. And yes, I'd surely choose him over Satan. And, in my worship of Jesus, I fulfill Deuteronomy 6:13. (I know, Harmonious...I know!:D --at least in your view, I obey 6 of those 7 laws of NOah)

[prisonchaplain]

Have you missed where it has been shown this is mistranslated?

I always get nervous when non-Jewish, non-Hebrew scholars gather to discuss translation errors in Old Testament texts. :eek:

[prisonchaplain]

Works for me.

However, even blasphemers normally get a trial.

The discussion happened in public, in the presence of those empowered to rendor judgment. In essence, the discussion became the trial.

[prisonchaplain]

Just curious

Holy Ghost is an older English form of Holy Spirit. The King James Version uses it, as does some other older translations. They are one and the same.

[Warrior4God]

Holy Ghost is an older English form of Holy Spirit. The King James Version uses it, as does some other older translations. They are one and the same.

Which is odd using ghost as spirit I think

[Harmonious]

Thanks.
Just curious, what if what Jesus claimed were true? What if He indeed was Emmanuel, God with Us. The I AM.?Couldn't be. God isn't man.

And Jesus wasn't Emmanuel, as he was JESUS, but more to the point, he was not born during the time of King Ahaz.

[Harmonious]

Jesus calimed to be the son of God, never calimed to be God, in verse 54 of the verse quoted Jesus say his Father is their God.
All Jews liturgically call God Our Father. Jesus is not different.

I have a friend whose father passed away several years ago, but he often talks of God as My Father in Heaven. (His mother wasn't a virgin, either.)

[Harmonious]

But why should not the LORD who led Israel out of Egypt and placed David on the throne and swore that the throne of David should be everlasting not create for Himself a physical body so that He could personally sit on that throne and rule the earth directly and personally for the rest of eternity?God has no need. King David's line is fine for kingship on this planet, but God remains the King of Kings. And it works just fine that the two never meet.

If that was His intention all along, who of us shall stop Him or say Him nay? What G-d chooses to do is surely what should be -- and can be-- done.
Except that God promised that it would never happen. Legitimate kings of Judah have to come from King David's physical paternal line. God's word is inviolate, and He promised that this is the way the physical kingship of Israel will work.
You know my heart: I truely yearn for the Temple -- and the throne of David -- to be restored. And, if the LORD takes to Himself the seed of David and personally restores both, then surely that is the greatest blessing of all, the direct and personal and immediate governance of the LORD of All Life, without human intermediaries getting between us and Him, so that we, too, like Moses, may look upon the Face of the LORD and live, kneel at His feet and shout hossanahs in His very presence, even, oh greatest delight of all, walk with Him in the evening in the Garden.Not even Moses SAW God "face to face," but God spoke to him as clearly as IF He was speaking face to face.

No prophet heard God's voice as clearly as Moses. God gave the prophets visions, but to Moses, God spoke and Moses knew exactly what God wanted.

If He is omnipresent and omnipotent and omniscient -- and He surely is-- then He is not bound up and limited to His throne in heaven but able and willing to be both enthroned in the heavens and enthroned in the Ark of the Covenant and enthroned in Jerusalem at one and the same time.God is not only in heaven, but everywhere, at all times.

God doesn't need the Temple to communicate with man, and Israel (fortunately or unfortunately as the case may be) can serve God without the Temple. However, it is easier to have a physical focus for concentration. God doesn't just "live" enthroned in the Ark of the Covenant. That is the place that God chose for Israel to focus our attention when we think about God. But God is everywhere. All the time. As you say, Without limits. Without restraints. Able to do all that He chooses to do.Exactly.

This is NOT the same thing as carving a chunk of stone and calling that which is not eternal and not omnipotent and not omnipresent "god" -- it is seeking the very Face of the Eternal ONE, looking for Him, personally and immediately and directly, to rule over the universe He created, to be literally Emmanuel, God With Us.God is not born. God is not, never was, and never will be physical. But you KNEW that we were going to disagree on this one before you began. :hug:

There is only the ONE who is worthy of our love and our obedience and our worship -- the ONE who walked with Adam in the Garden,God didn't walk. Hit'halach means "move," not walk. the ONE who blessed Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, the ONE who revealed Himself to Moses. Moses didn't see God, either. But I like the way you think.

The greatest tragedy in the entire history of mankind is when Adam and Eve hid themselves from their Creator, unable to look upon Him face to Face out of shame.They tried to hide from God. They never "looked upon His face" to start with. They tried to hide from what they experienced as God's presence, but it didn't work. They made a futile effort. In this, they lost the greatest blessing of all -- the companionship of the Almighty. This is what has been restored through Christ: a literal, personal, one-on-one relationship with the ONE, and I yearn for the day when I, too, can literally, physically, walk into the throne room of the LORD and hear His voice with my own ears, look upon His face, and bow down in awe before Him. There is no joy, no peace, no happiness in this world -- nothing is worth having without that promise, that hope. The very definition of "life" and "death" is to be present with the LORD or eternally separated from His Being.You are free to believe this. I can tell that you believe this very firmly.

I believe otherwise. But you should be blessed, either way.

[Harmonious]

I always get nervous when non-Jewish, non-Hebrew scholars gather to discuss translation errors in Old Testament texts. :eek:
Not a problem. He was referring to the translation of Ehiye asher Ehiye as "I will be that I will be," which is the correct translation. (It was cleared with Jews, first. ;) )

He was referring to this, saying that "I Will Be" is correct, and not "I Am."

[HisServant]

How does that jibe with all the other old testament scripture where god says he is one? All those verses where god uses singular pronouns like "I" "me" "mine"? And those others where people talk about him similarly "he" "his"?

Is there any other verse where god uses "us" or "our"? If not what does that indicate to you?

That at times God speaks for the Godhead and at times each figure of the Diety speak for themselves.

[Harmonious]

The discussion happened in public, in the presence of those empowered to rendor judgment. In essence, the discussion became the trial.Trials happen in private.

[HisServant]

So in the verse that says "where two or more are gathered in my name I am with you" (apologies if I don't have the quote exactly right) is Jesus or God physicaly in the room? If Jesus was God in flesh, then God submitted to God's will. And on the cross God had to turn away from looking at God because God had taken on all the sins of the world and God can't look upon sin. Let's reword this verse with that in mind "I am the way the truth and the life. No man comes unto me except by me"

You have it almost right actually. Jesus is God the Son. The Father is The Father God and then there is the Holy Spirit God. The triune Godhead. Yet they are one. So on the cross God the Father turned away from God the Son.

Does John 1 also confuse you? In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God.. ... The Word became flesh and dwelt among us (Immanuel) as the only begotten of the Father.

[HisServant]

What's with the prayer when Jesus went off alone before being crucified? If Jesus was God then it could "not my will but my will be done"

How is one part of the whole lesser and submissive to another part?

You must go to colossians to understand this. Jesus emptied Himself of his power and humble himself and became a man. He was subject to all we are subject to. He did it willingly so He could be our High Priest. Read Hebrews.
So Jesus as a man, yet still divinely God, submitted Himself to the will of God to show us how we are to live.

[HisServant]

Couldn't be. God isn't man.

And Jesus wasn't Emmanuel, as he was JESUS, but more to the point, he was not born during the time of King Ahaz.

Gen 3:15 God said He would put seed in a woman. Virgin birth of Jesus.
John 1 The Word became flesh. Immanuel God with us . Jesus.
Isa 9:6 same

not sure I understand the reference to King Ahaz. Please explain. I enjoy your knowledge of the old testament.

[HisServant]

Trials happen in private.

oops surprise they broke another law... :D

[prisonchaplain]

Trials happen in private.

OK, OK--John does make it sound like something of a lynch mob. So, the response was not kosher. I'd still argue, it could have happened.

[DRS]

Gen 3:15 God said He would put seed in a woman. Virgin birth of Jesus.
John 1 The Word became flesh. Immanuel God with us . Jesus.
Isa 9:6 same

not sure I understand the reference to King Ahaz. Please explain. I enjoy your knowledge of the old testament.

Genesis does not say He would put seed in a woman, He says 15*And I shall put enmity between you and the woman and between your seed and her seed. He will bruise you in the head and you will bruise him in the heel.”

The woman was not Mary.

(Galatians 4:26) But the Jerusalem above is free, and she is our mother

[DRS]

If you're going to use Proverbs 8, to deny your Lord, God and Savior, then perhaps you can tell me, who is this Prudence that dwells with Wisdom. No one who uses this passage, seems to know Prudence, perhaps you do.

You can also supply chapter and verse that details when, and by what means Jesus was created. My goodness, even satan's creation is detailed in the scriptures, but we're suppose to take your word that Christ is a creature. Apparently, that's what you did, when you embraced this creature Jesus false doctrine. Prove your created Jesus belief, with the word of God.
Not everyone is capable of ignoring scripture... some of us are not afraid to accept "all" of God's word. Only believers in erroneous doctrines discard scripture!!!

Keep in mind, Micah prophesised the Messiah would be from everlasting. The very same "everlasting-ness" that's applied to the Father. Are you prepared to acknowledge, God the Father did not always exist?

This is my first time posting here, so I hope this posts correctly.

Who was the one through whom all things were created, wisdom which Jesus personified or Jesus?

Does the bible contradict itself?

[DRS]

All Jews liturgically call God Our Father. Jesus is not different.

I have a friend whose father passed away several years ago, but he often talks of God as My Father in Heaven. (His mother wasn't a virgin, either.)

I am pointing out Jesus never claimed to be the God of the Jews, he states over and over His Father was their God.

[Harmonious]

Gen 3:15 God said He would put seed in a woman. Virgin birth of Jesus.
John 1 The Word became flesh. Immanuel God with us . Jesus.Interesting, but no. It is understood that seed is a fancy way of referring to descendants. There is no question that it is talking about people in general. There is no "virgin" being referred to.

But your answer was creative.

Isa 9:6 sameNo, no, no. In Isaiah, God will name the child Prince of Peace.

5. For a child has been born to us, a son given to us, and the authority is upon his shoulder, and the wondrous adviser, the mighty God, the everlasting Father, called his name, "the prince of peace."

There is no virgin here, either.

not sure I understand the reference to King Ahaz. Please explain. I enjoy your knowledge of the old testament.
:) My pleasure.

In Isaiah, Chapter 7, King Ahaz is up against the King of Israel and the King of Aram and their armies. King Ahaz of Judea was worried and very much in a bind. Isaiah came to reassure King Ahaz that a child would be born, whose name would be Emmanuel. By the time the child would be old enough to distinguish "good from bad" (Good boy! Bad boy!), the war would be over, and Judea would be victorious.

And so it was.

There was no virgin there, either. It was a young woman. Maybe a teenage woman. But not a virgin, no matter what the Greek says.

[DRS]

Did the Jews stone Zech·a·ri′ah cause he claimed to be God?

[Harmonious]

I am pointing out Jesus never claimed to be the God of the Jews, he states over and over His Father was their God.
Well, My Father in Heaven, or my Father, your Father, our Father...

It works well, you know, without assuming that God is a progenitor of anyone but Adam and Eve...

[DRS]

5. For a child has been born to us, a son given to us, and the authority is upon his shoulder, and the wondrous adviser, the mighty God, the everlasting Father, called his name, "the prince of peace."



You may want to explain the difference between ’El Gib·bohr′ and ’El Shad·dai′

And to whom the title ’El Shad·dai is applied.

[Harmonious]

OK, OK--John does make it sound like something of a lynch mob. So, the response was not kosher. I'd still argue, it could have happened.
Regular Jews wanting to lynch a guy for claiming to be God? A little extreme, I'll grant you, but if he was gaining followers who believed that he was a god, I could see their point.

[Harmonious]

You may want to explain the difference between ’El Gib·bohr′ and ’El Shad·dai′El Gibbor is God Almighty, as Gibbor describes vast strength. El Shaddai is God Most High.

And to whom the title ’El Shad·dai is applied.God and only God.

[DRS]

Well, My Father in Heaven, or my Father, your Father, our Father...

It works well, you know, without assuming that God is a progenitor of anyone but Adam and Eve...

Is it possible for God to take the life force from one of creations, like an angel and place it into a human boday?

[Harmonious]

Is it possible for God to take the life force from one of creations, like an angel and place it into a human boday?

No. That would be an abomination.

I looked up the Nefilim, and Jewish sources say that they were giants.

And the Elohim mentioned in Genesis 6:2 were actually nobles, not God, and not angels.

[DRS]

No. And I don't understand the Nefilim, so don't ask about them.

So you are saying it is impossible for God?

[Harmonious]

So you are saying it is impossible for God?

It would go against all that God explained about how He wants His world to work. The whole "each to its type" thing.

There would be no reason to assume that God would ever do such a thing.

Psst... I edited my post. I don't know if that will answer your question.

[DRS]

No. That would be an abomination.

I looked up the Nefilim, and Jewish sources say that they were giants.

And the Elohim mentioned in Genesis 6:2 were actually nobles, not God, and not angels.

If there were sons of nobles they would be sons of men and not a big deal they were having sex with women, no need for a flood.

Job 1:6 seems to indicate this term is for angels

[DRS]

It would go against all that God explained about how He wants His world to work. The whole "each to its type" thing.

There would be no reason to assume that God would ever do such a thing.

Psst... I edited my post. I don't know if that will answer your question.

This was not going to interfere with the gene pool as no cross species breeding would be done.

But you telling me that God who created the laws governing the whole universe can not bend the rules oe perform miracles as He sees fit?

[Harmonious]

If there were sons of nobles they would be sons of men and not a big deal they were having sex with women, no need for a flood.

Job 1:6 seems to indicate this term is for angels

Elohim is a weird word. It means different things in different places.

Sometimes it means God. Sometimes, it refers to false gods. Sometimes, it refers to angels. Sometimes, it refers to nobles.

Which meaning goes when works with context and the Oral Tradition which tells us what it means in any given place.

In Genesis 6, it referred to nobles. In Job 1, it referred to angels.

[DRS]

Elohim is a weird word. It means different things in different places.

Sometimes it means God. Sometimes, it refers to false gods. Sometimes, it refers to angels. Sometimes, it refers to nobles.

Which meaning goes when works with context and the Oral Tradition which tells us what it means in any given place.

In Genesis 6, it referred to nobles. In Job 1, it referred to angels.

You have Oral Tradition and I have Peter and Jude, who say they were angels.

[Harmonious]

This was not going to interfere with the gene pool as no cross species breeding would be done.

But you telling me that God who created the laws governing the whole universe can not bend the rules oe perform miracles as He sees fit?

God would not bend or break a rule so that He can break a promise that He already made. So, no.

Splitting the Reed Sea - God never promised that He wouldn't split a sea in half.

Am I worried about global warming destroying ice caps? Not particularly - God promised that the world would never be destroyed completely by deluge again. God promised.

All the miracles that happened in the desert for 40 years... God broke His laws of physics and nature to get it done. But He never promised anyone that He wouldn't.

A miraculous child born that would thwart God's promise (through Jacob's blessing) that the scepter should never leave Judah's hands... breaks a promise.

So no, God would not bend or break the rules of nature in order to break a promise already made.

[DRS]

God would not bend or break a rule so that He can break a promise that He already made. So, no.

Splitting the Reed Sea - God never promised that He wouldn't split a sea in half.

Am I worried about global warming destroying ice caps? Not particularly - God promised that the world would never be destroyed completely by deluge again. God promised.

All the miracles that happened in the desert for 40 years... God broke His laws of physics and nature to get it done. But He never promised anyone that He wouldn't.

A miraculous child born that would thwart God's promise (through Jacob's blessing) that the scepter should never leave Judah's hands... breaks a promise.

So no, God would not bend or break the rules of nature in order to break a promise already made.

How does a miraculous child being born in the line of Judah break the promise?

It is like saying a woman past meopause giving birth would not be possible.

[Harmonious]

How does a miraculous child being born in the line of Judah break the promise?

It is like saying a woman past meopause giving birth would not be possible.

See, the sperm of a man from King David's line is required to produce the Messiah. If a child is born miraculously from elsewhere, then the promise to the Jews about the Messiah (read: annointed King of Israel) being born from Judah would be broken.

There is a similar argument in the Talmud (but I don't know where) about the oil in the Menorah on that first Chanuka.

There is one opinion that suggested that the miracle was that the one cruz of oil was used up and refilled miraculously. But that opinion is soundly rejected, saying that if the cruz was filled with miracle oil, it would have been USELESS! It would not have been fit to use to light the Menorah, miraculous as it would have been, because Jewish law says that the Menorah must be lit with virgin olive oil. The oil produced from the first press alone is all that is fit to light the Menorah of the Temple. Anything else would be useless for Menorah lighting purposes, no matter how miraculous it came.

(To finish the discussion, though, one opinion was that the oil was separated into eighths and only that was used daily for the days of Chanuka, but the oil lasted all day. This, too, was rejected, as it would not be fitting to light less than the required amount. Therefore, many years after it happened, it was clear to the rabbis that the only way the miracle of Chanuka's Menorah could have happened was that the whole cruz was used to light the Menorah, and instead of lasting for the one day that it was natural for it to burn, it lasted eight whole days.)

From this comparison of the miraculous of one situation, we learn that no matter how impressive a miraculous child may or may not be, no child is kosher to be the Messiah from the house of King David but a child born from the physical seed of a man who is from the line of King David through King Solomon, and not through King Jeconiah.

So a miracle baby could NEVER be the Messiah. Like the miracle oil, it would be interesting, but not fit for the use suggested.

Miracle oil couldn't be used for the Menorah. A miracle baby (assuming for the moment that Jesus actually was one) couldn't rule Israel as Messiah.

[DRS]

See, the sperm of a man from King David's line is required to produce the Messiah. If a child is born miraculously from elsewhere, then the promise to the Jews about the Messiah (read: annointed King of Israel) being born from Judah would be broken.

There is a similar argument in the Talmud (but I don't know where) about the oil in the Menorah on that first Chanuka.

There is one opinion that suggested that the miracle was that the one cruz of oil was used up and refilled miraculously. But that opinion is soundly rejected, saying that if the cruz was filled with miracle oil, it would have been USELESS! It would not have been fit to use to light the Menorah, miraculous as it would have been, because Jewish law says that the Menorah must be lit with virgin olive oil. The oil produced from the first press alone is all that is fit to light the Menorah of the Temple. Anything else would be useless for Menorah lighting purposes, no matter how miraculous it came.

(To finish the discussion, though, one opinion was that the oil was separated into eighths and only that was used daily for the days of Chanuka, but the oil lasted all day. This, too, was rejected, as it would not be fitting to light less than the required amount. Therefore, many years after it happened, it was clear to the rabbis that the only way the miracle of Chanuka's Menorah could have happened was that the whole cruz was used to light the Menorah, and instead of lasting for the one day that it was natural for it to burn, it lasted eight whole days.)

From this comparison of the miraculous of one situation, we learn that no matter how impressive a miraculous child may or may not be, no child is kosher to be the Messiah from the house of King David but a child born from the physical seed of a man who is from the line of King David through King Solomon, and not through King Jeconiah.

So a miracle baby could NEVER be the Messiah. Like the miracle oil, it would be interesting, but not fit for the use suggested.

Miracle oil couldn't be used for the Menorah. A miracle baby (assuming for the moment that Jesus actually was one) couldn't rule Israel as Messiah.


Seeing as all matter originates from God, it is God's call as to how that matter is used and if it is being used for His purpose.

See Jacob and David were not the orginators of their existence, God is.

The other thing is God using means other than what one wants is not unheards of look at David lineage Rahab and Ruth niether of these women were even Israelites yet they are in David's lineage and hence the Messanic lineage.

[Harmonious]

Seeing as all matter originates from God, it is God's call as to how that matter is used and if it is being used for His purpose.

See Jacob and David were not the orginators of their existence, God is.Yes. But JEWISH LAW also originates from God. And God would not make a miracle happen and expect Jews to take it seriously if it breaks Jewish law.

Signs and wonders that detract from Jewish law are called "tests." They happen, and the Jews are judged based on how well we ignore the wonders and stick to the Torah.

The other thing is God using means other than what one wants is not unheards of look at David lineage Rahab and Ruth niether of these women were even Israelites yet they are in David's lineage and hence the Messanic lineage.That is well and good. But note: in both cases, it was WOMEN who are not originally from Israel.

Women just have to be Jewish. But the MEN contributing to the equation have to be from Judah. And then from King David. And then from King Solomon. And now from Hillel.

Women are good like that. Whether we are as pure as from Leah herself or from a nation that wasn't Jewish to start with, we take on the tribe of the Jewish men we marry, assuming we are Jewish now. (Except women who convert to Judaism may not marry Cohanim.)

Women are the source of Jewishness. But tribes come from the Jewish men we marry and have children with.

It doesn't matter how pure you claim Mary was, even if she was from King David via Nathan. If the biological father is not from King David's line via King Solomon, it doesn't matter what miracle happened - the child can't be Messiah.

PS - Rahav married Joshua bin Nun. He wasn't from Judah, either.

[DRS]

Yes. But JEWISH LAW also originates from God. And God would not make a miracle happen and expect Jews to take it seriously if it breaks Jewish law.

Signs and wonders that detract from Jewish law are called "tests." They happen, and the Jews are judged based on how well we ignore the wonders and stick to the Torah.

That is well and good. But note: in both cases, it was WOMEN who are not originally from Israel.

Women just have to be Jewish. But the MEN contributing to the equation have to be from Judah. And then from King David. And then from King Solomon. And now from Hillel.

Women are good like that. Whether we are as pure as from Leah herself or from a nation that wasn't Jewish to start with, we take on the tribe of the Jewish men we marry, assuming we are Jewish now. (Except women who convert to Judaism may not marry Cohanim.)

Women are the source of Jewishness. But tribes come from the Jewish men we marry and have children with.

It doesn't matter how pure you claim Mary was, even if she was from King David via Nathan. If the biological father is not from King David's line via King Solomon, it doesn't matter what miracle happened - the child can't be Messiah.

Who was the first king before Saul?

Who decided Saul would be king?

Who then decided to use David and bring kingship to Judah?

Did the Jews object to Saul because the prophecy said the sceptre would not depart from Judah?

[Harmonious]

Who was the first king before Saul?There was no Jewish king before Saul.

Who decided Saul would be king?God did.

Who then decided to use David and bring kingship to Judah?God did.

Did the Jews object to Saul because the prophecy said the sceptre would not depart from Judah?Clever.

No, they didn't. But similar to the concept that before the Temple was built, sacrifices could be brought on any elevated altar, before the kingship was granted to Judah, a man from any tribe could be king.

But like the concept that once the Temple was built, sacrifices could be brought nowhere else, the same is true for the concept of Davidic Kingship. Once God decided to choose a king from Judah, the legitimate kingship of Judah could never leave. Ever. With all the laws that entails.

[DRS]

There was no Jewish king before Saul..


7*Then Jehovah said to Samuel: “Listen to the voice of the people as respects all that they say to you; for it is not you whom they have rejected, but it is I whom they have rejected from being king over them


Clever.

No, they didn't. But similar to the concept that before the Temple was built, sacrifices could be brought on any elevated altar, before the kingship was granted to Judah, a man from any tribe could be king.

But like the concept that once the Temple was built, sacrifices could be brought nowhere else, the same is true for the concept of Davidic Kingship. Once God decided to choose a king from Judah, the legitimate kingship of Judah could never leave. Ever. With all the laws that entails.

Mount Carmel was there not a sacrifce there?

[Harmonious]

You always keep me on my toes. :hug:7*Then Jehovah said to Samuel: “Listen to the voice of the people as respects all that they say to you; for it is not you whom they have rejected, but it is I whom they have rejected from being king over themTrue.

But there is a long commentary by Rabbi David Kimchi (Radak) who explained why this is a problem. Radak set up the question and answered it beautifully. I will paraphrase.

See, in Deuteronomy, one of the commandments the Jews had upon entering and conquering Israel was to set up a king. Why was the Jewish bid for a king a bad thing, if it was fulfilling the commandment?

If the Jews came to Samuel and said, "You know? It's time to set up a king to fulfill the commandment," there would have been no problem. If the Jews came to Samuel and said, "Look - your sons are not up to your stature, and we need to ensure proper Jewish leadership after you. Set a king up for us," that too would have been fine. If the Jews would have said, "God is our King, but we need someone here on earth to help enforce the laws. Set up a king for us, and he will help us keep the commandments properly," they would have done the right thing.

But they didn't do that. Instead, they said, "We want a king so that we can be like all the other nations." All the other nations disobeyed God's commands (the Seven Laws of Noah were all they had, but they had difficulty keeping them), and they were able to blame their lawlessness and licensiousness on the king, as they were following the orders of the king. Or, the laws of the land were immoral, and the king enforced them, so the people of the other nations were immoral.

Instead of all of the positive reasons that the Jews could have used to ask for a king, they used the one that was guaranteed to annoy God - they wanted a king, not so that they could keep God's laws properly, which when Jews do that we give tribute to the King of Kings, but so that they could eventually find ways to desert the Torah.

Being a Torah true Jew is hard, and expensive. The Jews of Samuel's time wanted an easy out. That is what the Jews did wrong. And eventually, they got their wish in spades. Generations later, but nonetheless...

The Jews rejected God's yoke of commandments, or at least the majority of those clamoring for a king did. That was what they did wrong.

God was always the King. He was King before Creation, He is King now that Creation exists, and some day in the future, when all the universe has come to an end, God will still be there and will still be King.

But as a temporal ruler of Israel, Saul was the first, and Zedekiah was the last legitimate King of Judea. Before the appointment of a physical king, one was not necessary. But since one existed, now it is only proper and fitting that the Messiah exist from King David, as it was promised that the scepter would never leave from Judah.
Mount Carmel was there not a sacrifce there?
Good point. There was indeed. It was what Jews call "Sha'at Ad Chak," or a "law of the hour." Elijah's sacrifice was a serious exception to the rule, but he was proving a serious point to the Jews that Ba'al was not a god to take seriously, but only God was to be worshipped. And the fact was that after the sacrifice in front of the "priests" of Ba'al, that was the end of the lesson. Exception was over, and there were no more kosher sacrifices out of the Temple after that "Law of the Hour."

In no way, shape, or form are you going to convince me that a Jewish leader was so urgently necessary that God broke all of His rules to produce a miracle baby that was to be born to die, and throw out the majority of Judaism on his way out.

The Temple was still standing during Jesus' lifetime, and honestly, the descendants of Hillel the Elder were far better Messianic candidates than Jesus ever was. Jesus didn't DO anything Messiah-worthy. During Jesus' own life, the majority of all Jews in the world lived in Babylonia, and the Temple was in danger because of the baseless hatred among Jews. Jesus seemed to try to fix the problem, but it didn't help.

There was no world peace, and there was no ingathering of any exiles. If Jesus was a miracle child, he wasn't Messiah. If he wasn't a miracle child, then he was less than important to anyone, as he wasn't born to greatness, and he did nothing (according to Jews) that was worth mentioning. He seemed to try to make peace among people, but he didn't do a good job of it.
So that was the end of that.

Jesus doesn't pass the threshhold of "Law of the Hour." There is no reason to accept Jesus as an exception to any rule whatsoever.

[prisonchaplain]

But you telling me that God who created the laws governing the whole universe can not bend the rules oe perform miracles as He sees fit?

I sense you desire to "steer" your Hebrew subject matter expert into a very certain direction, with this inquiry.

[Chill-Factor]

Who was the one through whom all things were created, wisdom which Jesus personified or Jesus?

Does the bible contradict itself?

There are no contradictions in the bible, if you allow scripture to interpret scripture. The bible is to be understood as a whole, not here a verse, and there a verse. As a whole, the bible clearly indicates the One/Echad True God/Elohim created all things...The Triune God. I'm sorry, but some people just can't ignore God's explicit words..."who was with Me" and "by Myself". Our God is not a God of confusion...meditate on it, pray for revelation, don't just blow it off.

To support your creature doctrine, Arians lean heavily on the word "through" when it's applied to Jesus. While doing so, you simply choose to ignore Romans 11:36, where all things are said to be "through" the Father. This selective interpretation of words in the scriptures really needs to stop.
If the word "through" has creature connotations for the Son, then the Father also has a creator.
Btw...can I assume, you're also clueless as to Prudence's identity?

[DRS]

There are no contradictions in the bible, if you allow scripture to interpret scripture. The bible is to be understood as a whole, not here a verse, and there a verse. As a whole, the bible clearly indicates the One/Echad True God/Elohim created all things...The Triune God. I'm sorry, but some people just can't ignore God's explicit words..."who was with Me" and "by Myself". Our God is not a God of confusion...meditate on it, pray for revelation, don't just blow it off.

To support your creature doctrine, Arians lean heavily on the word "through" when it's applied to Jesus. While doing so, you simply choose to ignore Romans 11:36, where all things are said to be "through" the Father. This selective interpretation of words in the scriptures really needs to stop.
If the word "through" has creature connotations for the Son, then the Father also has a creator.
Btw...can I assume, you're also clueless as to Prudence's identity?

Actually since no creation is not possible without God all creation is attributed to him.

Roman does not disprove Jesus role in creation and as a creation because in 1 Corinthians 8:36*6*there is actually to us one God the Father, out of whom all things are, and we for him; and there is one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things are, and we through him.

We see these words also by Eve 4 Now Adam had intercourse with Eve his wife and she became pregnant. In time she gave birth to Cain and said: “I have produced a man with the aid of Jehovah.”

[DRS]

You always keep me on my toes. :hug:True.

But there is a long commentary by Rabbi David Kimchi (Radak) who explained why this is a problem. Radak set up the question and answered it beautifully. I will paraphrase.

See, in Deuteronomy, one of the commandments the Jews had upon entering and conquering Israel was to set up a king. Why was the Jewish bid for a king a bad thing, if it was fulfilling the commandment?

If the Jews came to Samuel and said, "You know? It's time to set up a king to fulfill the commandment," there would have been no problem. If the Jews came to Samuel and said, "Look - your sons are not up to your stature, and we need to ensure proper Jewish leadership after you. Set a king up for us," that too would have been fine. If the Jews would have said, "God is our King, but we need someone here on earth to help enforce the laws. Set up a king for us, and he will help us keep the commandments properly," they would have done the right thing.

But they didn't do that. Instead, they said, "We want a king so that we can be like all the other nations." All the other nations disobeyed God's commands (the Seven Laws of Noah were all they had, but they had difficulty keeping them), and they were able to blame their lawlessness and licensiousness on the king, as they were following the orders of the king. Or, the laws of the land were immoral, and the king enforced them, so the people of the other nations were immoral.

Instead of all of the positive reasons that the Jews could have used to ask for a king, they used the one that was guaranteed to annoy God - they wanted a king, not so that they could keep God's laws properly, which when Jews do that we give tribute to the King of Kings, but so that they could eventually find ways to desert the Torah.

Being a Torah true Jew is hard, and expensive. The Jews of Samuel's time wanted an easy out. That is what the Jews did wrong. And eventually, they got their wish in spades. Generations later, but nonetheless...

The Jews rejected God's yoke of commandments, or at least the majority of those clamoring for a king did. That was what they did wrong.

God was always the King. He was King before Creation, He is King now that Creation exists, and some day in the future, when all the universe has come to an end, God will still be there and will still be King.

But as a temporal ruler of Israel, Saul was the first, and Zedekiah was the last legitimate King of Judea. Before the appointment of a physical king, one was not necessary. But since one existed, now it is only proper and fitting that the Messiah exist from King David, as it was promised that the scepter would never leave from Judah.

Good point. There was indeed. It was what Jews call "Sha'at Ad Chak," or a "law of the hour." Elijah's sacrifice was a serious exception to the rule, but he was proving a serious point to the Jews that Ba'al was not a god to take seriously, but only God was to be worshipped. And the fact was that after the sacrifice in front of the "priests" of Ba'al, that was the end of the lesson. Exception was over, and there were no more kosher sacrifices out of the Temple after that "Law of the Hour."

In no way, shape, or form are you going to convince me that a Jewish leader was so urgently necessary that God broke all of His rules to produce a miracle baby that was to be born to die, and throw out the majority of Judaism on his way out.

The Temple was still standing during Jesus' lifetime, and honestly, the descendants of Hillel the Elder were far better Messianic candidates than Jesus ever was. Jesus didn't DO anything Messiah-worthy. During Jesus' own life, the majority of all Jews in the world lived in Babylonia, and the Temple was in danger because of the baseless hatred among Jews. Jesus seemed to try to fix the problem, but it didn't help.

There was no world peace, and there was no ingathering of any exiles. If Jesus was a miracle child, he wasn't Messiah. If he wasn't a miracle child, then he was less than important to anyone, as he wasn't born to greatness, and he did nothing (according to Jews) that was worth mentioning. He seemed to try to make peace among people, but he didn't do a good job of it.
So that was the end of that.

Jesus doesn't pass the threshhold of "Law of the Hour." There is no reason to accept Jesus as an exception to any rule whatsoever.


Actaully they were not commanded to take a king it was prophesyed that they would want one, to be like the nations around them and it would go badly.

Jehovah said they were rejecting Him if they had not wanted a human ruler something seen but rather been happy with Jehovah as their king this may have never happened as prophesied.

35*“Jehovah will strike you with a malignant boil upon both knees and both legs, from which you will not be able to be healed, from the sole of your foot to the crown of your head. 36*Jehovah will march you and your king whom you will set up over you to a nation whom you have not known, neither you nor your forefathers; and there you will have to serve other gods, of wood and of stone. 37*And you must become an object of astonishment, a proverbial saying and a taunt among all the peoples to whom Jehovah will lead you away.

I think Jehovah gets to be the one who decides what is important and what the laws and rules to be followed are.

[Harmonious]

Actaully they were not commanded to take a king it was prophesyed that they would want one, to be like the nations around them and it would go badly.

Jehovah said they were rejecting Him if they had not wanted a human ruler something seen but rather been happy with Jehovah as their king this may have never happened as prophesied.

35*“Jehovah will strike you with a malignant boil upon both knees and both legs, from which you will not be able to be healed, from the sole of your foot to the crown of your head. 36*Jehovah will march you and your king whom you will set up over you to a nation whom you have not known, neither you nor your forefathers; and there you will have to serve other gods, of wood and of stone. 37*And you must become an object of astonishment, a proverbial saying and a taunt among all the peoples to whom Jehovah will lead you away.

I think Jehovah gets to be the one who decides what is important and what the laws and rules to be followed are.He is.

But no, the commandment is in Deuteronomy 17:14-20.

14. When you come to the land the Lord, your God, is giving you, and you possess it and live therein, and you say, "I will set a king over myself, like all the nations around me,"
15. you shall set a king over you, one whom the Lord, your God, chooses; from among your brothers, you shall set a king over yourself; you shall not appoint a foreigner over yourself, one who is not your brother.
16. Only, he may not acquire many horses for himself, so that he will not bring the people back to Egypt in order to acquire many horses, for the Lord said to you, "You shall not return that way any more."
17. And he shall not take many wives for himself, and his heart must not turn away, and he shall not acquire much silver and gold for himself.
18. And it will be, when he sits upon his royal throne, that he shall write for himself two copies of this Torah on a scroll from [that Torah which is] before the Levitic kohanim.
19. And it shall be with him, and he shall read it all the days of his life, so that he may learn to fear the Lord, his God, to keep all the words of this Torah and these statutes, to perform them,
20. so that his heart will not be haughty over his brothers, and so that he will not turn away from the commandment, either to the right or to the left, in order that he may prolong [his] days in his kingdom, he and his sons, among Israel.

It is true that it sounds like it starts with a foretelling of the future, but it was actually something that was not only supposed to happen, but there are all kinds of rules around it.

[Harmonious]

There are no contradictions in the bible, if you allow scripture to interpret scripture. The bible is to be understood as a whole, not here a verse, and there a verse. As a whole, the bible clearly indicates the One/Echad True God/Elohim created all things...The Triune God.
No. Really not. There is only ONE God.

Wait a minute - you were addressing the thread topic, as opposed to our wonderful tangent. Sorry.

But there still is only ONE God, and Echad only means one. Not three, not three personalities, not three Godheads, not three parts and pieces, just ONE.
I'm not sure why people try so hard to believe that there are three when there only ever was ONE.

Bad math.

[HisServant]

Genesis does not say He would put seed in a woman, He says 15*And I shall put enmity between you and the woman and between your seed and her seed. He will bruise you in the head and you will bruise him in the heel.”

The woman was not Mary.

(Galatians 4:26) But the Jerusalem above is free, and she is our mother

Last I checked women have eggs not seed. God put His seed in Mary. Jesus bruise satan's head and satan bruised His heel, that's what happens at crucifixions.

[HisServant]

Interesting, but no. It is understood that seed is a fancy way of referring to descendants. There is no question that it is talking about people in general. There is no "virgin" being referred to.

But your answer was creative.

No, no, no. In Isaiah, God will name the child Prince of Peace.

5. For a child has been born to us, a son given to us, and the authority is upon his shoulder, and the wondrous adviser, the mighty God, the everlasting Father, called his name, "the prince of peace."

There is no virgin here, either.


:) My pleasure.

In Isaiah, Chapter 7, King Ahaz is up against the King of Israel and the King of Aram and their armies. King Ahaz of Judea was worried and very much in a bind. Isaiah came to reassure King Ahaz that a child would be born, whose name would be Emmanuel. By the time the child would be old enough to distinguish "good from bad" (Good boy! Bad boy!), the war would be over, and Judea would be victorious.

And so it was.

There was no virgin there, either. It was a young woman. Maybe a teenage woman. But not a virgin, no matter what the Greek says.

I see your point but how does a woman produce seed? She doesn't.
That's why God said he'd put it there and will place emnity between the 2.

As far as Isa. It is interesting that it specifies that a child will be born. And a child was. But it did not say a Son will be born, but will be given. Notice how both occurs in the virgin birth. A child is born and God gave His Son. Hence Immanuel God with Us.

As far as Isaiah 7. I thought a virgin was a young woman maybe I'm wrong.

It reads as though the prophecy of Isaiah is not one that is going to happen anytime soon to me not during Ahaz's reign.

And I really do enjoy your insights into OT scripture. It helps me see how God set up the coming of His Son Jesus.

[rhet 2]

No. Really not. There is only ONE God.

Wait a minute - you were addressing the thread topic, as opposed to our wonderful tangent. Sorry.

But there still is only ONE God, and Echad only means one. Not three, not three personalities, not three Godheads, not three parts and pieces, just ONE.
I'm not sure why people try so hard to believe that there are three when there only ever was ONE.

Bad math.

On this, I fully concur. Except that I believe YHWH took great pains to create for Himself a human body that could literally sit on a literal physical throne in Jerusalem.

Let's face it: even David, the greatest of the human kings of Israel, screwed up and brought a lot of pain to the children of Jacob whom he ruled, yet the LORD promised him an undying house -- a dynasty that would never cease, and Jacob did prophesy that the scepter would never depart from Judah. Just look at the balls up Solomon, the wisest man to have ever lived, made of ruling. And even the half-decent kings like Hezekiah had problems and never lived long enough to solve the problems that led to the Exile.

Now, Messiah will have absolute power not only over Judea but the entire earth -- do you really want to give absolute power to some human who's going to make similar mistakes? I don't. ONLY God Himself should have the power of that kingship -- because He alone will NOT make the same -- or even worse-- mistakes. Which is why I conclude that Messiah must be a physical incarnation of G-d Himself.

I'm sorry, but I don't think even David could be trusted with the authority and power that the prophesies ascribe to Messiah. The ONLY KING of kings must be G-d Himself. Because only G-d can be trusted that much. Which is, I think, the entire lesson of Torah history: don't trust human kings, because every last one of them fouls up sooner or later.

And that leads me straight into Jesus of Nazareth being that physical incarnation of the ONE and ONLY G-d.

[HisServant]

He is.

But no, the commandment is in Deuteronomy 17:14-20.

14. When you come to the land the Lord, your God, is giving you, and you possess it and live therein, and you say, "I will set a king over myself, like all the nations around me,"
15. you shall set a king over you, one whom the Lord, your God, chooses; from among your brothers, you shall set a king over yourself; you shall not appoint a foreigner over yourself, one who is not your brother.
16. Only, he may not acquire many horses for himself, so that he will not bring the people back to Egypt in order to acquire many horses, for the Lord said to you, "You shall not return that way any more."
17. And he shall not take many wives for himself, and his heart must not turn away, and he shall not acquire much silver and gold for himself.
18. And it will be, when he sits upon his royal throne, that he shall write for himself two copies of this Torah on a scroll from [that Torah which is] before the Levitic kohanim.
19. And it shall be with him, and he shall read it all the days of his life, so that he may learn to fear the Lord, his God, to keep all the words of this Torah and these statutes, to perform them,
20. so that his heart will not be haughty over his brothers, and so that he will not turn away from the commandment, either to the right or to the left, in order that he may prolong [his] days in his kingdom, he and his sons, among Israel.

It is true that it sounds like it starts with a foretelling of the future, but it was actually something that was not only supposed to happen, but there are all kinds of rules around it.

I guess its not possible that God already knowing the future knew what they were going to do so He cautioned them about how to do it.

I just don't see this as a I God command you to appoint a king.

[DRS]

Last I checked women have eggs not seed. God put His seed in Mary. Jesus bruise satan's head and satan bruised His heel, that's what happens at crucifixions.

Jesus was bruised in the heel, the bruising of the head is yet to take place.

The woman was not Eve, the woman is the Jerusalem above.

[DRS]

He is.

But no, the commandment is in Deuteronomy 17:14-20.

14. When you come to the land the Lord, your God, is giving you, and you possess it and live therein, and you say, "I will set a king over myself, like all the nations around me,"
15. you shall set a king over you, one whom the Lord, your God, chooses; from among your brothers, you shall set a king over yourself; you shall not appoint a foreigner over yourself, one who is not your brother.
16. Only, he may not acquire many horses for himself, so that he will not bring the people back to Egypt in order to acquire many horses, for the Lord said to you, "You shall not return that way any more."
17. And he shall not take many wives for himself, and his heart must not turn away, and he shall not acquire much silver and gold for himself.
18. And it will be, when he sits upon his royal throne, that he shall write for himself two copies of this Torah on a scroll from [that Torah which is] before the Levitic kohanim.
19. And it shall be with him, and he shall read it all the days of his life, so that he may learn to fear the Lord, his God, to keep all the words of this Torah and these statutes, to perform them,
20. so that his heart will not be haughty over his brothers, and so that he will not turn away from the commandment, either to the right or to the left, in order that he may prolong [his] days in his kingdom, he and his sons, among Israel.

It is true that it sounds like it starts with a foretelling of the future, but it was actually something that was not only supposed to happen, but there are all kinds of rules around it.

God knows the inclinations of men and the fact they will alck faith, He knew what Cain was going to do and He knew just how little faith Israel had, just a short time after brining them out of Egypt what do they do complain.

[DRS]

I sense you desire to "steer" your Hebrew subject matter expert into a very certain direction, with this inquiry.

There are many miracles in the bible which should defy science, for example the sun standing still Elijah and the widow from Zar′e·phath and her oil.

[prisonchaplain]

There are many miracles in the bible which should defy science, for example the sun standing still Elijah and the widow from Zar′e·phath and her oil.

God performs miracles. Amen and hallelujah. However, if a poster says: God's law is such and such, so He is not likely to do that which is contrary, and you respond with, "Are you saying it is impossible for Jehovah?" then your intention is clearly for corral an answer that seems to verify your notion that Jehovah did indeed do that which violates His rules, even though the poster clearly indicated that he did not think so.

[DRS]

God performs miracles. Amen and hallelujah. However, if a poster says: God's law is such and such, so He is not likely to do that which is contrary, and you respond with, "Are you saying it is impossible for Jehovah?" then your intention is clearly for corral an answer that seems to verify your notion that Jehovah did indeed do that which violates His rules, even though the poster clearly indicated that he did not think so.

There is not scripture forbidding miraculous births.

There are other things we see in the Ot like angels taking the form of men, some doing good and others doing bad.

The other thing is this conversation has been had with other Jews before including on this board and this is the first time one has God could not transfer a life.

You ever read oral law?

[Fire Watch]

No. Really not. There is only ONE God.

Wait a minute - you were addressing the thread topic, as opposed to our wonderful tangent. Sorry.

But there still is only ONE God, and Echad only means one. Not three, not three personalities, not three Godheads, not three parts and pieces, just ONE.
I'm not sure why people try so hard to believe that there are three when there only ever was ONE.

Bad math.
:clap: :clap: :hug:

[Chill-Factor]

No. Really not. There is only ONE God.

Wait a minute - you were addressing the thread topic, as opposed to our wonderful tangent. Sorry.

But there still is only ONE God, and Echad only means one. Not three, not three personalities, not three Godheads, not three parts and pieces, just ONE.
I'm not sure why people try so hard to believe that there are three when there only ever was ONE.

Bad math.
Echad is a unified "one"...as in its usage in Genesis, when Adam and Eve became one/echad flesh. Your belief would make that case, not only bad math, but also bad science.

[DRS]

Echad is a unified "one"...as in its usage in Genesis, when Adam and Eve became one/echad flesh. Your belief would make that case, not only bad math, but also bad science.

So by using this comparison two question come up fo me.

Do you believe there was a time when Jesus was not?

Do you believe Jesus is subordinate to the Father?

[Chill-Factor]

Actually since no creation is not possible without God all creation is attributed to him.

Roman does not disprove Jesus role in creation and as a creation because in 1 Corinthians 8:36*6*there is actually to us one God the Father, out of whom all things are, and we for him; and there is one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things are, and we through him.

We see these words also by Eve 4 Now Adam had intercourse with Eve his wife and she became pregnant. In time she gave birth to Cain and said: “I have produced a man with the aid of Jehovah.”

The Romans verse was provided to show "through" adds nothing, as for support of a creature doctrine.
As for 1 Cor 8:6, are you prepared to acknowledge God the Father as not being your Lord, since it states we have one Lord, Jesus Christ?

The context of the chapter is contrasting false deities and true deities, not the Father and Son. While contrasting false from true, Apostle Paul makes dictinctions between the Father and Son, who are both entities within the true Godhead. Paul uses this opportunity to show the Father and Son are on equal par, by attributing the creation of all things to both Father and Son.

As for the Eve verse, the when, and by what means of her creation is clearly detailed, in the scriptures. You or any other Arian have yet to provide scripture, showing the "alleged" creation of Jesus. Provide that first, before comparing Eve to your Lord, and Eve's Creator.

[DRS]

The Romans verse was provided to show "through" adds nothing, as for support of a creature doctrine.
As for 1 Cor 8:6, are you prepared to acknowledge God the Father as not being your Lord, since it states we have one Lord, Jesus Christ?

The context of the chapter is contrasting false deities and true deities, not the Father and Son. While contrasting false from true, Apostle Paul makes dictinctions between the Father and Son, who are both entities within the true Godhead. Paul uses this opportunity to show the Father and Son are on equal par, by attributing the creation of all things to both Father and Son.

As for the Eve verse, the when, and by what means of her creation is clearly detailed, in the scriptures. You or any other Arian have yet to provide scripture, showing the "alleged" creation of Jesus. Provide that first, before comparing Eve to your Lord, and Eve's Creator.


Paul shows one is God and one is Lord.

The title Lord is given to a husband or has husbandly ownership, much like when Sarah called Abrham my lord.

Proverbs 8-22-31 shows his creatio.

So by your using the scriptures and wording with Adam and Ece, we see there was a time when Eve was not and she was subordinate to her huband who was her head, just as God is the head of Jesus, 3*But I want YOU to know that the head of every man is the Christ; in turn the head of a woman is the man; in turn the head of the Christ is God.

[Robster]

There was never a time when Jesus was not.... John 1 says that in the begining was the Word and the Word was God and through the Word, all things were created. Then in vs. 14 of that same chapter the Bible tells us that the Word became flesh (Jesus). Jesus is God and God is Jesus. Just as we have a physical body, spirit and soul, God the Father (soul) God the Son (flesh) and God the Holy Spirit (spirit) are all seperate yet still one. After all, we are created in the image of God according to the Book of Genesis.

[Chill-Factor]

So by using this comparison two question come up fo me.

Do you believe there was a time when Jesus was not?

Do you believe Jesus is subordinate to the Father?

No...to your first question, Jesus is from everlasting.

Yes... to your second question, but only as to the functioning roles, within the Godhead. In the same sense, while in the workplace, you are subordinate to your supervisor. Even though, you're equals in humanity.

[Warrior4God]

No...to your first question, Jesus is from everlasting.

Yes... to your second question, but only as to the functioning roles, within the Godhead. In the same sense, while in the workplace, you are subordinate to your supervisor. Even though, you're equals in humanity.

That makes no sense

[Chill-Factor]

That makes no sense

That's subjective, based on your reasoning capabilities.

You must be a boss, and expect your employees to worship you as a god, because you're nature is soooo much higher than their lowly human nature. Either that or, you've never held a job in your whole life.:rolleyes:

[Harmonious]

I guess its not possible that God already knowing the future knew what they were going to do so He cautioned them about how to do it.

I just don't see this as a I God command you to appoint a king.

The Oral Law explains this quite differently. So Jews view this as a commandment, with a whole complement of details that go with it.

For a complete run-down on Jewish law for kingship, see Rambam's "Mishneh Torah," the section on Laws of Kingship.

[Harmonious]

God knows the inclinations of men and the fact they will alck faith, He knew what Cain was going to do and He knew just how little faith Israel had, just a short time after brining them out of Egypt what do they do complain.

See what I told His Servant.

[Harmonious]

There is not scripture forbidding miraculous births.

There are other things we see in the Ot like angels taking the form of men, some doing good and others doing bad.

The other thing is this conversation has been had with other Jews before including on this board and this is the first time one has God could not transfer a life.

You ever read oral law?

Did you?

[Harmonious]

Echad is a unified "one"...as in its usage in Genesis, when Adam and Eve became one/echad flesh. Your belief would make that case, not only bad math, but also bad science.

No. When it comes to God, there is only One.

Why do people unfamiliar with Hebrew think they understand anything when it comes to the word Echad? This puzzles me.


No, one means one. God is the One and Only, and there is no Oneness like the oneness of God.

Adam and Eve become one family unit. But even when Adam and and Eve become one, their unity has nothing on God's unity. God is One. Not three, but ONE.

Not three IN one. Just the One. Without any partner, helper, multiple personality, or any other excuse to make God more than one.

[Fire Watch]

No. When it comes to God, there is only One.

Why do people unfamiliar with Hebrew think they understand anything when it comes to the word Echad? This puzzles me.


No, one means one. God is the One and Only, and there is no Oneness like the oneness of God.

Adam and Eve become one family unit. But even when Adam and and Eve become one, their unity has nothing on God's unity. God is One. Not three, but ONE.

Not three IN one. Just the One. Without any partner, helper, multiple personality, or any other excuse to make God more than one.
I think I love you. :D

[DRS]

Did you?


Having read parts of the Talmud it seems there are things written in an effort ti revise history or soften the harshness of some sins, there also seems to be an effort in something said to try and discredit that the Messiah has come.

[DRS]

No...to your first question, Jesus is from everlasting.

Yes... to your second question, but only as to the functioning roles, within the Godhead. In the same sense, while in the workplace, you are subordinate to your supervisor. Even though, you're equals in humanity.

If Jesus was without beginning then he should be without ending, yet Jesus died for 3 days and the bible says he was raised to immortality.

So know you are saying all spirit creatures are equal because they are all spirits?

[maddogg]

If Jesus was without beginning then he should be without ending, yet Jesus died for 3 days and the bible says he was raised to immortality.

So know you are saying all spirit creatures are equal because they are all spirits?Jesus' death wasn't the end of him. :))

[HisServant]

If Jesus was without beginning then he should be without ending, yet Jesus died for 3 days and the bible says he was raised to immortality.

So know you are saying all spirit creatures are equal because they are all spirits?

Death is not the of a person it is the end of physical life, our flesh.
Once our flesh, body dies our soul stands before the Lord. He decides our final destination. Heaven or Hell. He decides based on what we've decided about Him and how we lived.

[Harmonious]

Having read parts of the Talmud it seems there are things written in an effort ti revise history or soften the harshness of some sins, there also seems to be an effort in something said to try and discredit that the Messiah has come.

The Talmud DEFINES what the laws are. It describes what counts as the actual command, where the Written Text gives a brief hint at what it was supposed to be.

In order to deal with the problems you are having, you should sit one day with an Orthodox Rabbi and ask him to explain what is going on.

Because you don't seem to understand what you read.

And if the Rabbis discredited Jesus, they were probably very right.

[Harmonious]

DRS, I'm not mocking you. I am explaining.

In this (http://www.hannity.com/forum/showthread.php?t=243190&page=11) thread, I explained the the Talmud far better.
I take it that you don't appreciate the depth of what the Talmud offers.

It has all kinds of understanding, questioning where the sources are from Tanach, and how are we supposed to accomplish God's will? I think that it is partially the fault of the Jews (mea culpa) who know that reasons are in the Talmud, but not necessarily where, or how much.

The Talmud is a huge body of knowledge. Think of it like this. Let's take New York Law and United States Law. Not just the Constitution, but ALL the laws contained therein. There are volumes and volumes of texts of laws. If you read the Constitution and think you know US Law, you are missing an AWFUL lot.

Similarly, the Talmud is very much like the volumes and volumes of law. As a matter of fact, the Talmud IS volumes and volumes of law. The Written Torah is a signpost that gives the general guidelines. But if you want to know the whos, the whats, the wheres, the whys, the whens, the hows, the how muches, and until whens, you look in the Talmud.

[DRS]

Death is not the of a person it is the end of physical life, our flesh.
Once our flesh, body dies our soul stands before the Lord. He decides our final destination. Heaven or Hell. He decides based on what we've decided about Him and how we lived.

If that is true then God did not raise him from the dead.

[DRS]

Jesus' death wasn't the end of him. :))

It was for 3 days until God raised him from the dead, if you do not believe that Jesus died than and was raised up by God then what do you believe happneed to him?

[DRS]

Harmonious have you ever wondered why there is such a concertated effort to discredit every messianic prophecy in connection with Jesus?

Do you think it is good that other prophets were killed like Isaiah?

[Harmonious]

Harmonious have you ever wondered why there is such a concertated effort to discredit every messianic prophecy in connection with Jesus?DRS, NO messianic prophecy was fulfilled by Jesus. There is no world peace, and the Jews are not all living in Israel. Assuming that there was a reason beyond that is just silly. Forgive me, but it is.

If I know that the sky is blue, and you tell me that the sky is red, why do I need to feel guilty for discrediting you for trying to come up with reasons that the sky is red?

Jesus wasn't the Messiah, plain and simple. And the Rabbis, who knew the laws of what is required for a Messiah far more than either you or I do, knew that Jesus wasn't it. In any way, shape, or form.

I keep saying that the descendants of Hillel the Elder are far better Messianic candidates than Jesus ever was. That is the Jews' story, and we're sticking to it.

That is why when people tell me that I'm going to Hell (I know you don't believe in Hell, but other Christians do), I tell them that I want to be where ever they put Hillel. Either Hillel or one of his descendants was contemporary to Jesus and rejected Jesus for obvious reasons.

If Hillel and his family are punished for disbelieving Jesus, I want to be right up there where ever they are.

Do you think it is good that other prophets were killed like Isaiah?True prophets? No. But Jesus was a FALSE prophet. At the very least, when the Pharisees asked for a sign - which is one of the tests for checking to see if a prophet is a true or false prophet - Jesus said that the generation was rebellious, and deserved no sign.

That right there is proof that Jesus certainly wasn't a kosher prophet. A miracle worker, maybe, but when told by the rabbis to produce a sign on command, he was worthless.

[HisServant]

If that is true then God did not raise him from the dead.


If what is not true? That Jesus's body was in a tomb while His Spirt was in hell for 3 days?
:wall:

Do you even know what resurrection means?

[Chill-Factor]

If Jesus was without beginning then he should be without ending, yet Jesus died for 3 days and the bible says he was raised to immortality.

So know you are saying all spirit creatures are equal because they are all spirits?

I think, if you decide to discuss the Godhead with a Trinitarian, you should at least factor their beliefs into the equation, before just blurting out something you find to be profound. I'm sure you are well aware, Triniatarians believe Jesus has two natures...the nature of God, and the nature of man. The flesh "body" of Christ was raised to immortality, just like your flesh body will be raised to immortality, and every human body that ever lived.

I was asked a question, concerning the subordination of Christ, not all spirit creatures. Subordination deals with authority, it has nothing to do with the "nature" of a being. Christ is the Creator...He did not clone a class of Himselves....the creature is never equal to his Creator. The scriptures reveal Christ as the Creator....not a creature.

[DRS]

If what is not true? That Jesus's body was in a tomb while His Spirt was in hell for 3 days?
:wall:

Do you even know what resurrection means?

Who was in hell with Jesus?

Do you know what Sheol is?

[DRS]

DRS, NO messianic prophecy was fulfilled by Jesus. There is no world peace, and the Jews are not all living in Israel. Assuming that there was a reason beyond that is just silly. Forgive me, but it is.

If I know that the sky is blue, and you tell me that the sky is red, why do I need to feel guilty for discrediting you for trying to come up with reasons that the sky is red?

Jesus wasn't the Messiah, plain and simple. And the Rabbis, who knew the laws of what is required for a Messiah far more than either you or I do, knew that Jesus wasn't it. In any way, shape, or form.

I keep saying that the descendants of Hillel the Elder are far better Messianic candidates than Jesus ever was. That is the Jews' story, and we're sticking to it.

That is why when people tell me that I'm going to Hell (I know you don't believe in Hell, but other Christians do), I tell them that I want to be where ever they put Hillel. Either Hillel or one of his descendants was contemporary to Jesus and rejected Jesus for obvious reasons.

If Hillel and his family are punished for disbelieving Jesus, I want to be right up there where ever they are.

True prophets? No. But Jesus was a FALSE prophet. At the very least, when the Pharisees asked for a sign - which is one of the tests for checking to see if a prophet is a true or false prophet - Jesus said that the generation was rebellious, and deserved no sign.

That right there is proof that Jesus certainly wasn't a kosher prophet. A miracle worker, maybe, but when told by the rabbis to produce a sign on command, he was worthless.

Healing the sick and raising the dead are not signs of a prophet?

What happened to the Jews when they refused to listen other ones sent by Jehovah?

Do you know what a person believes right to the point of their death?

[DRS]

I think, if you decide to discuss the Godhead with a Trinitarian, you should at least factor their beliefs into the equation, before just blurting out something you find to be profound. I'm sure you are well aware, Triniatarians believe Jesus has two natures...the nature of God, and the nature of man. The flesh "body" of Christ was raised to immortality, just like your flesh body will be raised to immortality, and every human body that ever lived.

I was asked a question, concerning the subordination of Christ, not all spirit creatures. Subordination deals with authority, it has nothing to do with the "nature" of a being. Christ is the Creator...He did not clone a class of Himselves....the creature is never equal to his Creator. The scriptures reveal Christ as the Creator....not a creature.

Again you are contradicting scipture since some are raised to judgement, only those who are joint heirs with Christ get the first resurrection and they are the only one revelation says that the second death has no hold over.

Aecondly Christ being the son of man was fully human, and like others before him who spoke with this title speak not of their own orginality but what they were told.

You right the nothing is equal to God and all things were created through Jesus.

Ransom means equal value

So Adam a perfect human creation had to be balanced by a perfect human creation.

Almighty God is not created, therefore Jesus could not be Almighty God.

[HisServant]

Who was in hell with Jesus?

Do you know what Sheol is?

Since I get everything wrong why don't you just tell me.

[DRS]

Since I get everything wrong why don't you just tell me.

You believe Jesus was in hell, so who was in hell with Jesus?

Sheol was the grave.

[prisonchaplain]

It was for 3 days until God raised him from the dead, if you do not believe that Jesus died than and was raised up by God then what do you believe happneed to him?

When Jesus died, do you believe he ceased to exist? If so, the Father would not have raised him from the dead. He would have had to create him anew.

[DRS]

When Jesus died, do you believe he ceased to exist? If so, the Father would not have raised him from the dead. He would have had to create him anew.

Was Jesus created a new when his life force was placed inside the womb of Mary?

Was Jesus not raised a spirit?

He went from a being a someone who had shape and face for 33 plus years to being able to change his apperance on demand and was able to cross over into other worlds and preach to those spirits that were imprisoned for forsaking their proper position before the flood.

[Fire Watch]

Was Jesus created a new when his life force was placed inside the womb of Mary?no

Was Jesus not raised a spirit?no

He went from a being a someone who had shape and face for 33 plus years to being able to change his apperance on demand and was able to cross over into other worlds and preach to those spirits that were imprisoned for forsaking their proper position before the flood.
stranger and strangerer

[marlins]

Not in the bible??

That the Trinity is not explicityl presented in scripture in no way means that it is not implicitly present. Nor is there any requirement that it should be presented in all its fullness. This is especially clear whne one considers the hisgtorical situation o fthe early Israelites. God indecated to them that they were to be monotheists even though they were surrounded polytheists. Making the break with polytheism was difficult for them, and so God chose at first to emphasize the oneness of his being, only gradually disclosing to them that there is more than one person in this divine unity. God planted seeds of this truth within the Old testament while he was at work establishing monotheism for the jews to set thenm apart form the believers of all the polytheistic religions that abounded. Monotheism was virtually unheard of in that age, and if God announced that he was one God in three persons, the people would not have correctly understood him but would have embraced a notion of tritheim (the belief in worshipping of three gods) God thus waited for the christians era to fully reveal his PLURULITY of Persons.

This gradual discloser of himself and his will, known to theologians as "progressive relvelation," is obvious to all who read scripture. God revelation to the Jews was a gradual process. This is true to the new testiment era itself. As Jesus said, "I have many things yet to say to you, but you are nto able to bear them at present" (John 16 :12)

Even human parents and teachers provide information to their children in graduated amounts, giving them as much as they can handle and digest; and th pace at which the child recieves and assimilated the information depends on the child, not the parent. God, as a heavenly peraent, operates in teh same way. Like all good teachers, the Lord takes into account the capacity of his disciples at any given moment and leads them into the truth slowly, by planting seeds and letting the needed understanding grow and develop over the course of time.

More on this next time.

[Fire Watch]

Not in the bible??

That the Trinity is not explicityl presented in scripture in no way means that it is not implicitly present. Nor is there any requirement that it should be presented in all its fullness. This is especially clear whne one considers the hisgtorical situation o fthe early Israelites. God indecated to them that they were to be monotheists even though they were surrounded polytheists. Making the break with polytheism was difficult for them, and so God chose at first to emphasize the oneness of his being, only gradually disclosing to them that there is more than one person in this divine unity. The undelined part NEVER happened

if God announced that he was one God in three persons, the people would not have correctly understood him but would have embraced a notion of tritheim (the belief in worshipping of three gods) God thus waited for the christians era to fully reveal his PLURULITY of Persons. If they had embraced tritheism, they would have done so correctly if this were true.

This gradual discloser of himself and his will, known to theologians as "progressive relvelation," is obvious to all who read scripture. God revelation to the Jews was a gradual process. This is true to the new testiment era itself. As Jesus said, "I have many things yet to say to you, but you are nto able to bear them at present" (John 16 :12)

Even human parents and teachers provide information to their children in graduated amounts, giving them as much as they can handle and digest; and th pace at which the child recieves and assimilated the information depends on the child, not the parent. God, as a heavenly peraent, operates in teh same way. Like all good teachers, the Lord takes into account the capacity of his disciples at any given moment and leads them into the truth slowly, by planting seeds and letting the needed understanding grow and develop over the course of time.

More on this next time.

The progressive revelation was that Jesus came, and was/is God incarnate..not a separate personage, but God embodied.

[Jacob_Rising]

I believe in the trinity, Alot of people who believe in the Trinity use the scripture, '' Let us makes him in our image''

So he made them Male and female.

But this is only 2, not 3.

But there was three people in the garden, why don't people who believe in the Trinity acknowlege this?

[prisonchaplain]

Was Jesus created a new when his life force was placed inside the womb of Mary?

This is quite a unique doctrine--that Jesus was, in essence, created three times. Before his incarnation, at his incarnation, and at his resurrection.

Was Jesus not raised a spirit?

No.

He went from a being a someone who had shape and face for 33 plus years to being able to change his apperance on demand and was able to cross over into other worlds and preach to those spirits that were imprisoned for forsaking their proper position before the flood.

And yet, Jesus specifically said he was not a mere spirit. Over 500 people attested to his resurrection, and none referred to him as a ghost or spirit. Most telling was the account with Thomas. The disciple sees, touches, believes, and worships the risen in the flesh Christ.

[HisServant]

This is quite a unique doctrine--that Jesus was, in essence, created three times. Before his incarnation, at his incarnation, and at his resurrection.

No.

And yet, Jesus specifically said he was not a mere spirit. Over 500 people attested to his resurrection, and none referred to him as a ghost or spirit. Most telling was the account with Thomas. The disciple sees, touches, believes, and worships the risen in the flesh Christ.

PC glad your back I'm getting tired of keeping up with all the false and misleading comments.

[Harmonious]

Healing the sick and raising the dead are not signs of a prophet?Nope. All the signs and wonders only count after it has been determined that he or she is a kosher prophet. The most important one is the one given on demand, if one is demanded.

What happened to the Jews when they refused to listen other ones sent by Jehovah?God usually gave word via the prophets about what would happen if they didn't listen.

Do you know what a person believes right to the point of their death?Huh?

[Fire Watch]

Huh?
The single most important word to have in your vocabulary when dealing with DRS.

[Harmonious]

I believe in the trinity, Alot of people who believe in the Trinity use the scripture, '' Let us makes him in our image''Just so that you know, God was talking to the angels. It is a lesson in humility.

No matter how great a person is, he should take counsel from people, even if they are considered less important. And no one is greater than God.

That is the Jewish way of understanding it.

[Harmonious]

The single most important word to have in your vocabulary when dealing with DRS.
You make me giggle, Rick.

[DRS]

This is quite a unique doctrine--that Jesus was, in essence, created three times. Before his incarnation, at his incarnation, and at his resurrection.

Creation is something from scratch, to place the essences of a being into another form is not creation, God remembering a person and placing everything about that person in a body be it spiritual or physical is ressurrection.

No.

. 18*Why, even Christ died once for all time concerning sins, a righteous [person] for unrighteous ones, that he might lead YOU to God, he being put to death in the flesh, but being made alive in the spirit.

And yet, Jesus specifically said he was not a mere spirit. Over 500 people attested to his resurrection, and none referred to him as a ghost or spirit. Most telling was the account with Thomas. The disciple sees, touches, believes, and worships the risen in the flesh Christ.


Jesus enters a locked room, never once before this do any followers recognize him by his wounds, and not only that they do not recognize him on a few occassions thinking he was a gardener even. If you know your OT you would know angels can take bodily form and evn eat.

[DRS]

no

no


stranger and strangerer

You should read 1 Peter 3:16-20

[DRS]

You make me giggle, Rick.

He makes me laugh too espically when he asserts Jesus was Jehovah here on Earth.

[Harmonious]

He makes me laugh too espically when he asserts Jesus was Jehovah here on Earth.
*shakes head*

I'm not getting involved. You know that I don't believe anything special about Jesus.

[DRS]

Nope. All the signs and wonders only count after it has been determined that he or she is a kosher prophet. The most important one is the one given on demand, if one is demanded.

I guess men such as Isaiah and Zechariah weren't kosher.




God usually gave word via the prophets about what would happen if they didn't listen.

He did 33*“Hear another illustration: There was a man, a householder, who planted a vineyard and put a fence around it and dug a winepress in it and erected a tower, and let it out to cultivators, and traveled abroad. 34*When the season of the fruits came around, he dispatched his slaves to the cultivators to get his fruits. 35*However, the cultivators took his slaves, and one they beat up, another they killed, another they stoned. 36*Again he dispatched other slaves, more than the first, but they did the same to these. 37*Lastly he dispatched his son to them, saying, ‘They will respect my son.’ 38*On seeing the son the cultivators said among themselves, ‘This is the heir; come, let us kill him and get his inheritance!’ 39*So they took him and threw him out of the vineyard and killed him. 40*Therefore, when the owner of the vineyard comes, what will he do to those cultivators?” 41*They said to him: “Because they are evil, he will bring an evil destruction upon them and will let out the vineyard to other cultivators, who will render him the fruits when they become due.”

42*Jesus said to them: “Did YOU never read in the Scriptures, ‘The stone that the builders rejected is the one that has become the chief cornerstone. From Jehovah this has come to be, and it is marvelous in our eyes’? 43*This is why I say to YOU, The kingdom of God will be taken from YOU and be given to a nation producing its fruits. 44*Also, the person falling upon this stone will be shattered. As for anyone upon whom it falls, it will pulverize him.”

45*Now when the chief priests and the Pharisees had heard his illustrations, they took note that he was speaking about them. 46*But, although they were seeking to seize him, they feared the crowds, because these held him to be a prophet.

About 37 years later the vineyard owner had the destruction cmae and some 2000 years it is still pretty much the same.

[HisServant]

He makes me laugh too espically when he asserts Jesus was Jehovah here on Earth.

Yeah imagine. That just because John 1 says so people would actually believe that that is what is meant. :wall:

[DRS]

Yeah imagine. That just because John 1 says so people would actually believe that that is what is meant. :wall:

Actually I always wonder why the God part was left out of John one, espicially when I started looking into the some Greek of the Ot where the God referred to Jehovah.

So we have the toward the God but not the God.

[Harmonious]

I guess men such as Isaiah and Zechariah weren't kosher.No one demanded to see signs from them. Further, they didn't tell anyone to do anything against the Torah. They specifically told the Jews to follow the Torah.

He did 33*“Hear another illustration: There was a man, a householder, who planted a vineyard and put a fence around it and dug a winepress in it and erected a tower, and let it out to cultivators, and traveled abroad. 34*When the season of the fruits came around, he dispatched his slaves to the cultivators to get his fruits. 35*However, the cultivators took his slaves, and one they beat up, another they killed, another they stoned. 36*Again he dispatched other slaves, more than the first, but they did the same to these. 37*Lastly he dispatched his son to them, saying, ‘They will respect my son.’ 38*On seeing the son the cultivators said among themselves, ‘This is the heir; come, let us kill him and get his inheritance!’ 39*So they took him and threw him out of the vineyard and killed him. 40*Therefore, when the owner of the vineyard comes, what will he do to those cultivators?” 41*They said to him: “Because they are evil, he will bring an evil destruction upon them and will let out the vineyard to other cultivators, who will render him the fruits when they become due.”

42*Jesus said to them: “Did YOU never read in the Scriptures, ‘The stone that the builders rejected is the one that has become the chief cornerstone. From Jehovah this has come to be, and it is marvelous in our eyes’? 43*This is why I say to YOU, The kingdom of God will be taken from YOU and be given to a nation producing its fruits. 44*Also, the person falling upon this stone will be shattered. As for anyone upon whom it falls, it will pulverize him.”

45*Now when the chief priests and the Pharisees had heard his illustrations, they took note that he was speaking about them. 46*But, although they were seeking to seize him, they feared the crowds, because these held him to be a prophet.

About 37 years later the vineyard owner had the destruction cmae and some 2000 years it is still pretty much the same.
I'm glad that Jesus' parable means something to you.

But Jesus was wrong then, and he is irrelevant now.

[Gidon]

No one demanded to see signs from them. Further, they didn't tell anyone to do anything against the Torah. They specifically told the Jews to follow the Torah.


I'm glad that Jesus' parable means something to you.

But Jesus was wrong then, and he is irrelevant now.


¶Rom10:1 Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.

Rom 10:2 For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.
Rom 10:3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.
Rom 10:4 For Christ [is] the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.
Rom 10:5 For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them.
Rom 10:6 But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down [from above]:)
Rom 10:7 Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.)
Rom 10:8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, [even] in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Rom 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
Rom 10:11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
Rom 10:12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
Rom 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
Rom 10:14 ¶ How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
Rom 10:15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
Rom 10:16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
Rom 10:17 So then faith [cometh] by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
Rom 10:18 But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.
Rom 10:19 But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by [them that are] no people, [and] by a foolish nation I will anger you.
Rom 10:20 But Esaias is very bold, and saith, I was found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me.
Rom 10:21 But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.


Get over yourself

[Harmonious]

¶Rom10:1 Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.

Rom 10:2 For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.
Rom 10:3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.
Rom 10:4 For Christ [is] the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.
Rom 10:5 For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them.
Rom 10:6 But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down [from above]:)
Rom 10:7 Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.)
Rom 10:8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, [even] in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Rom 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
Rom 10:11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
Rom 10:12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
Rom 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
Rom 10:14 ¶ How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
Rom 10:15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
Rom 10:16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
Rom 10:17 So then faith [cometh] by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
Rom 10:18 But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.
Rom 10:19 But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by [them that are] no people, [and] by a foolish nation I will anger you.
Rom 10:20 But Esaias is very bold, and saith, I was found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me.
Rom 10:21 But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.


Get over yourself
Get over YOUR self. I'm not Christian, so Romans means nothing to me.

Enjoy your Christianity. I don't want any part of it.

I'll stay happy obeying God by following the Torah. Believing in Jesus isn't included.

[Gidon]

Get over YOUR self. I'm not Christian, so Romans means nothing to me.

Enjoy your Christianity. I don't want any part of it.

I'll stay happy obeying God by following the Torah. Believing in Jesus isn't included.

I believe you are Christophobic

[Harmonious]

I believe you are Christophobic
I have nothing against Christians. I have some great friends here and in the outside world.

However, I'm not fond of Jesus. The more I learn about him, the less I like him, and he didn't have a good starting place.

I'm not afraid of Jesus. I believe that he is irrelevant. I believe that he was a rabble-rouser, who incited people to disrespect the Rabbis of his time. He deserves my scorn.

I realize that other people feel otherwise. I respect your right to your beliefs, no matter how wrong I think you are.

[Warrior4God]

I have nothing against Christians. I have some great friends here and in the outside world.

However, I'm not fond of Jesus. The more I learn about him, the less I like him, and he didn't have a good starting place.

I'm not afraid of Jesus. I believe that he is irrelevant. I believe that he was a rabble-rouser, who incited people to disrespect the Rabbis of his time. He deserves my scorn.

I realize that other people feel otherwise. I respect your right to your beliefs, no matter how wrong I think you are.

Its your right to disagree but Jesus Christ knows who are his brothers and sisters.
One day every knee will bow to him ,He is alive at the right hand of the Father and will return

[Harmonious]

Its your right to disagree but Jesus Christ knows who are his brothers and sisters.
One day every knee will bow to him ,He is alive at the right hand of the Father and will return

And I believe that one day, every knee will bow to God, without Jesus, and sing praises to God's name, Jesus not included.

[blklab]

Can someone tell me what a "soul" or "spirit" is (made of), or a experiment that will prove "it" exist's? Its strongly "suspected", at this time, that outside of our universe "dark matter" exist's, but we are unable to prove it - yet, but will, someday in science!

[Jacob_Rising]

Can someone tell me what a "soul" or "spirit" is (made of), or a experiment that will prove "it" exist's? Its strongly "suspected", at this time, that outside of our universe "dark matter" exist's, but we are unable to prove it - yet, but will, someday in science!EctoPlasm
At least, that's what I heard in an old Cary Grant Movie.

The one where he and his wife died and became angels to help a Guy.

That was the first time EctoPlasm was used and originates from.

[Harmonious]

Can someone tell me what a "soul" or "spirit" is (made of), or a experiment that will prove "it" exist's? Its strongly "suspected", at this time, that outside of our universe "dark matter" exist's, but we are unable to prove it - yet, but will, someday in science!

It is nothing you can touch or measure. I don't think there is an experiment to prove it exists.

People can try, but I don't think it is possible.

[DRS]

No one demanded to see signs from them. Further, they didn't tell anyone to do anything against the Torah. They specifically told the Jews to follow the Torah.


I'm glad that Jesus' parable means something to you.

But Jesus was wrong then, and he is irrelevant now

They were still killed this did not mean they were wrong.

Actually Jesus knew what was going to happen, he knew he would be killed just as others sent by God were killled.

He knew there would be no more Earthly temple and the servants of God would be scattered and be living as exiles, so what he taught was very relevant for one who wanted to serve Jehovah.

[Harmonious]

They were still killed this did not mean they were wrong.

Actually Jesus knew what was going to happen, he knew he would be killed just as others sent by God were killled.


Ah. I see where you are making your error. You are confusing the concept of "prophet" with "messiah."

Prophets give the words they are supposed to, regardless of the danger to their lives.

The Messiah will accomplish his mission during his lifetime. Messianic candidates may very well be prophets. Power to them. But if they die before they bring world peace and the Jews of the world to Israel, then said candidates were NOT the Messiah.

[prisonchaplain]

Creation is something from scratch, to place the essences of a being into another form is not creation, God remembering a person and placing everything about that person in a body be it spiritual or physical is ressurrection.

Who says creation is something from scratch? I say that if a person is annhilated (his/her essence no longer exists), then to "resurrect from memory" is to create.



. 18*Why, even Christ died once for all time concerning sins, a righteous [person] for unrighteous ones, that he might lead YOU to God, he being put to death in the flesh, but being made alive in the spirit.

That's some good holiness preaching, right there. We've got to destroy our flesh, brothers and sisters! That evil, fallen nature is dead, in the name of Jesus, HALLELUJAH! Now, praise God, we are alive in the Spirit. We are born again--clean! Come on now, can I get a witness?

Context, DRS...context.




Jesus enters a locked room, never once before this do any followers recognize him by his wounds, and not only that they do not recognize him on a few occassions thinking he was a gardener even. If you know your OT you would know angels can take bodily form and evn eat.

The resurrection was a miracle. Likewise, Christ's glorified body. But, it was a body of flesh and blood--as Thomas testified to. It drove the doubter to his knees in worship. And, unlike every angel who is threatened with worship, Jesus embraces the act as proper.

[DRS]

Who says creation is something from scratch? I say that if a person is annhilated (his/her essence no longer exists), then to "resurrect from memory" is to create.


So if I have the designs already for the twin towers and after they were destroyed I rebuild them from the blueprints I am creating?


That's some good holiness preaching, right there. We've got to destroy our flesh, brothers and sisters! That evil, fallen nature is dead, in the name of Jesus, HALLELUJAH! Now, praise God, we are alive in the Spirit. We are born again--clean! Come on now, can I get a witness?

Context, DRS...context.


Jesus was without sin and did not have sinful desire so you may have missed the context.



The resurrection was a miracle. Likewise, Christ's glorified body. But, it was a body of flesh and blood--as Thomas testified to. It drove the doubter to his knees in worship. And, unlike every angel who is threatened with worship, Jesus embraces the act as proper.

So when Abraham bowed to the sons of Heth he was worshipping?

Yeah you ever actually read the accounts, he appears in locked room and no one noticed these scars previously?

[DRS]

Ah. I see where you are making your error. You are confusing the concept of "prophet" with "messiah."

Prophets give the words they are supposed to, regardless of the danger to their lives.

The Messiah will accomplish his mission during his lifetime. Messianic candidates may very well be prophets. Power to them. But if they die before they bring world peace and the Jews of the world to Israel, then said candidates were NOT the Messiah.


What is it about the human nature where people feel it is all about them?

God is loyal to those who are loyal to Him.

No single race gets to say they are Gods anymore.


The promise was all nations would be bleesed by means of Abrahams seed, Jesus as a Jew was the seed of Abraham and he has provided the means for all nations to be blessed.

[Harmonious]

What is it about the human nature where people feel it is all about them?

God is loyal to those who are loyal to Him.

No single race gets to say they are Gods anymore.


The promise was all nations would be bleesed by means of Abrahams seed, Jesus as a Jew was the seed of Abraham and he has provided the means for all nations to be blessed.

Yes, all nations would be blessed through Abraham's seed. But not all nations would BE Abraham's seed. When the rest of the world leaves the Jews in peace to follow the Torah, the people who work with us are blessed.

The Jews are indeed God's chosen. That didn't stop. But the rest of the world gets blessings when the Jews are allowed to function as God's chosen people.

[DRS]

Yes, all nations would be blessed through Abraham's seed. But not all nations would BE Abraham's seed. When the rest of the world leaves the Jews in peace to follow the Torah, the people who work with us are blessed.

The Jews are indeed God's chosen. That didn't stop. But the rest of the world gets blessings when the Jews are allowed to function as God's chosen people.

Guess you never read the part where there were blessings and curses in Deuteronomy?

[Harmonious]

Guess you never read the part where there were blessings and curses in Deuteronomy?Of course I did. And they all came true. Many times over.

And no matter how bad the Jews are, and no matter how harshly the Jews are punished, the Jews will always be God's Chosen People.

God promised.

[DRS]

Of course I did. And they all came true. Many times over.

And no matter how bad the Jews are, and no matter how harshly the Jews are punished, the Jews will always be God's Chosen People.

God promised.

You promised to love your husband and stay married to him all your days when you wed but was he did not act unfaithfully enough for you to say enough is enough?

[Harmonious]

You promised to love your husband and stay married to him all your days when you wed but was he did not act unfaithfully enough for you to say enough is enough?
Actually, no I didn't. But that is another thing. Jewish men sign a contract that they will provide certain things for the wife in front of two witnesses. If he breaks the contract, he forfeits the marriage.

But when GOD makes a promise, it is forever, no matter what.

[DRS]

Actually, no I didn't. But that is another thing. Jewish men sign a contract that they will provide certain things for the wife in front of two witnesses. If he breaks the contract, he forfeits the marriage.

But when GOD makes a promise, it is forever, no matter what.

So God has to reward a person no matter how disloyal they behave?

[Harmonious]

So God has to reward a person no matter how disloyal they behave?
:think:

No. We are punished for our sins, either in this world or the next.

But the Jews' covenant with God is not a reward. It might have been a reward to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, but at this point, it is beyond a reward. It is a permanent promise that is never to be taken back.

That is why ALL Jews are obligated to follow the Torah. Some Jews might choose not to do some commandments, and some Jews might convert out of Judaism altogether, but God's promise is forever. So the Jews' promise is also forever.

Even when the Jews are bad at keeping our part of the bargain, God always remembers His.

[DRS]

:think:

No. We are punished for our sins, either in this world or the next.

But the Jews' covenant with God is not a reward. It might have been a reward to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, but at this point, it is beyond a reward. It is a permanent promise that is never to be taken back.

That is why ALL Jews are obligated to follow the Torah. Some Jews might choose not to do some commandments, and some Jews might convert out of Judaism altogether, but God's promise is forever. So the Jews' promise is also forever.

Even when the Jews are bad at keeping our part of the bargain, God always remembers His.


god's covenant and promises have always been for the faithful, the land flowing with milk and honey was a reward, so was having a temple.

[Harmonious]

god's covenant and promises have always been for the faithful, the land flowing with milk and honey was a reward, so was having a temple.Living in the Land and the Temple were rewards. But God's covenant was not a reward - it is permanent.

[DRS]

Living in the Land and the Temple were rewards. But God's covenant was not a reward - it is permanent.

The rewards for the faithful will always be given, God does not reward unfaithful behaviour.

[Harmonious]

The rewards for the faithful will always be given, God does not reward unfaithful behaviour.

But God does give partial credit. :)

[DRS]

But God does give partial credit. :)

Yeah but even now what does the nation of Israel look to for security God or the American government?

[Harmonious]

Yeah but even now what does the nation of Israel look to for security God or the American government?

It would help to remember that not all of the nation of Israel actually lives in the COUNTRY of Israel.

I would say that religious Jews look to God for security, but asking for help from secular sources isn't a sin.

Jews rely on miracles all the time, but we aren't supposed to be blatant about it, without express direction from a prophet.

I would also say that not all of the nation of Israel is religious.

Even so, God gives partial credit where credit is due.

[DRS]

It would help to remember that not all of the nation of Israel actually lives in the COUNTRY of Israel.

I would say that religious Jews look to God for security, but asking for help from secular sources isn't a sin.

Jews rely on miracles all the time, but we aren't supposed to be blatant about it, without express direction from a prophet.

I would also say that not all of the nation of Israel is religious.

Even so, God gives partial credit where credit is due.

How was happy was God when your forefathers looked to Egypt for help?

[Harmonious]

How was happy was God when your forefathers looked to Egypt for help?Happy with who?

The Egyptians? Not really happy at all.

With the Jews? Well, according to the Medrash, the only real difference between the Jews and the Egyptians that the Jews maintained at the time of their exodus from Egypt was they spoke Hebrew, the holy language, they dressed modestly, and they kept Jewish names. In all other ways, they were just like the Egyptians culturally.

But the idea that the Jews cried to God made God happy, because the Jews looked to HIM to solve their problems.

Another thought that might surprise you: the Jews maintain NOW that only 1/5 of the Jews actually left Egypt. (The rest, who were unwilling to leave to serve God, died during the Plague of Darkness, and they were buried, and all went unnoticed by the Egyptians.)

God isn't happy when people die, especially in large numbers. But sometimes it is necessary.

When God took the Jews out of Egypt, and the only food they took with them was Matza (as the bread didn't have time to rise), God was pleased with the faith they showed in God.

It is fascinating to notice. Jews call the holiday Passover, or Pesach, which describes what God did for us during the Tenth Plague. God, in the Torah, calls the holiday Festial of Matza. That is what we did for God.

The Jews understand the Medrash that after the Jews crossed the Reed Sea, and the Egyptians were drowning, the angels started to sing praise to God. God silenced them, saying, "How dare you sing praises, while my children (the Egyptians) are drowning?"

The angels were only permitted to sing praises when the Jews started singing praises. They were thanking God for saving them from the Egyptians, and the angels were permitted to sing with the Jews.

[DRS]

And where would one find any of this in the bible?

[Harmonious]

How was happy was God when your forefathers looked to Egypt for help?
Um, I misunderstood your question.

During the time of prophecy, Jews should have been looking to God for assistance. Looking to Egypt meant that Jews didn't have to look to God for help, so God wasn't happy.

But in today's day and age, where prophecy is a very limited thing, we do the best we can. Jews pray our hearts out, and learn as much Torah as we can, and train militarily, and ask help for what we can't do ourselves.

The situation is different. The Israeli government isn't looking to America for help to avoid dealing with God. The Israeli government is looking to America IN ADDITION to seeking help from God.

Part of the issue is what were the intentions of the people doing what at the time.

[Harmonious]

And where would one find any of this in the bible?Dude, I told you that it is in Midrashim. You won't find it in the Bible. You will find it in the commentary, and in Bereisheet Rabba.

[DRS]

Dude, I told you that it is in Midrashim. You won't find it in the Bible. You will find it in the commentary, and in Bereisheet Rabba.

Was this written before of after the Babylonian exile?

[Harmonious]

Was this written before of after the Babylonian exile?It was learned and passed down when it actually happened. But it was written down much later than the Babylonian exile.

[Auratus]

Should You Believe in the Trinity?

Is It Clearly a Bible Teaching?



Belief? It isn't an issue about belief, but of observable facts one can obtain by reading related texts about it in the Bible, especially in the N.T. This assumes the Bible is the basis for gaining knowledge of God and His Gospel; and that the Bible is the only Authority for Truth and that the Bible is the Holy Inspired Word for Christian doctine... for the Christian reader, if not, never mind.

Trinity need not be mentioned in the Bible specificly in order to exist; hence why it is called doctrine instead.

Here here are some typical Scriptures which clearly defined the doctrine concept of Trinity or, rather, the unique ability of God to manefest Himself as various Persons, as specific Deity in each; as time dependent revelation of Himself relative to our concept of time-based reality; a reality which doesn't necessarily exist ralative to God if we say His nature includes being timeless; i.e.,. God is said to be omnipresent, omniscient, and omnipotent; these too, as a matter of doctine derived from the texts of the Word.

John 1:14 - And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, full of grace and truth; we have beheld his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father.

John 12:45 - And he who sees me [Jesus] sees him who sent me [God].

John 10:30 - [Jesus said:]"I and the Father are one."

Philippians 2:5 & 6 - Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus, who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped...

John 14:10 - Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father in me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on my own authority; but the Father who dwells in me does his works.

John 14:9 - Jesus said to him, "Have I been with you so long, and yet you do not know me, Philip? He who has seen me has seen the Father; how can you say, 'Show us the Father'?

Matthew 14:33 - And those in the boat worshiped him, saying, "Truly you are the Son of God."

John 1:1 - In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Matthew 1:18 - Now the birth of Jesus Christ took place in this way. When his mother Mary had been betrothed to Joseph, before they came together she was found to be with child of the Holy Spirit...

Luke 1:15 - for he will be great before the Lord, and he shall drink no wine nor strong drink, and he will be filled with the Holy Spirit, even from his mother's womb.

Acts 2:38 - And Peter said to them, "Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Galatians 2:20 - ... it is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me ...

John 14:26 - But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you.

1 Corinthians 6:19 - Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit within you, which you have from God? You are not your own...

2 Corinthians 13:5 - ...Do you not realize that Jesus Christ is in you?

Matthew 18:20 - For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.

2 Timothy 1:14 - guard the truth that has been entrusted to you by the Holy Spirit who dwells within us.

From the Scripures above (not a complete compilation) we can observe the God is manifested in three Persons: God the Holy Spirit, God the Father, God the Son. This then becomes the basis for the "Trinity" doctrine common in Christianity; these Scriptures also reveal the Deity of each manefested Person of God; thusly, Jesus was/is truly God "with us" as this Scripture makes fact:

Matthew 1:23 - "Behold, a virgin shall conceive and bear a son, and his name shall be called Emmanuel" (which means, God with us).

[DRS]

Who is the God of Jesus?

[HisServant]

Who is the God of Jesus?

His Father of course who is one with Him. John 10:30
30 I and My Father are one ." NKJV


and in John 1 we see that before He was Jesus He was the Word. Who always was with God and Is God.

[Harmonious]

His Father of course who is one with Him. John 10:30
30 I and My Father are one ." NKJV


and in John 1 we see that before He was Jesus He was the Word. Who always was with God and Is God.Okay. I have a question. If Jesus was God, how could he say that God abandoned him?

[DRS]

His Father of course who is one with Him. John 10:30
30 I and My Father are one ." NKJV


and in John 1 we see that before He was Jesus He was the Word. Who always was with God and Is God.

He also prayed his followers be one, are Christians just one person?

Jesus referred to his God who is his God?

[Rhonda]

I think many are holding tight to dogma...and forgetting the personal relationship with Jesus. Not that many do not have scripture true and correct..but the personal part being left out makes scipture of no affect...even the demons believe the Word...having a personal and loving relationship with Christ through prayer and allowing the Holy Spirit to dwell and move you and convict and comfort is the most important part of our salvation for without that we can do NOTHING..that is of Him.

[prisonchaplain]

So if I have the designs already for the twin towers and after they were destroyed I rebuild them from the blueprints I am creating?

I'm not convinced the comparison between a building and a living being is apt, unless you're suggesting cloning. :eek:


Jesus was without sin and did not have sinful desire so you may have missed the context.

1 Cor. 15 informs us that the ressurection involves a spiritual, imperishable body. You seem to believe that the body is noncorporeal. I'm of the opinion that human bodies are corporeal, whether glorified (spiritual) or not.

So when Abraham bowed to the sons of Heth he was worshipping?

Did he say to them, "My LORDs and my Gods!"?

Yeah you ever actually read the accounts, he appears in locked room and no one noticed these scars previously?

Are you not aware that Jesus did many miracles during his sojourn here?

[prisonchaplain]

The rewards for the faithful will always be given, God does not reward unfaithful behaviour.

Perhaps if we change the phrase from "reward" to "extend mercy towards"?

[prisonchaplain]

How was happy was God when your forefathers looked to Egypt for help?

I knew he was going to equate America with Egypt. I just knew it! :doh:

[HisServant]

He also prayed his followers be one, are Christians just one person?

Jesus referred to his God who is his God?

asked and answered.
God The Father. He is God the Son. They are one. See John 1. Ask me again I will tell you the same.

[prisonchaplain]

Okay. I have a question. If Jesus was God, how could he say that God abandoned him?

His Father had abandoned him when he took our sins upon him.

[HisServant]

I think many are holding tight to dogma...and forgetting the personal relationship with Jesus. Not that many do not have scripture true and correct..but the personal part being left out makes scipture of no affect...even the demons believe the Word...having a personal and loving relationship with Christ through prayer and allowing the Holy Spirit to dwell and move you and convict and comfort is the most important part of our salvation for without that we can do NOTHING..that is of Him.

Well said. Amen. :clap:

[Harmonious]

His Father had abandoned him when he took our sins upon him.But if Jesus is God, he can't abandon himself.
:think:

[Mathius]

Jesus is one with the father. The holy spirit is one with the father and when we "gain" the holy spirit we become one with God ourselves as we were originally from the father.

[Harmonious]

Well, now I understand the reasoning. I don't buy it, but I understand it. Kind of.

I might have to ask again later, but it is only to keep the story straight in my mind.

Thanks.

[prisonchaplain]

But if Jesus is God, he can't abandon himself.
:think:

You don't have to agree with our theology to apprehend it. God the Father turned away from His Son, who bore our sins.

I'm well aware that by Jewish theological understanding, the Christian doctrine of the Trinity is condemned as polytheism. You are also aware that we believe ourselves to be monotheists who worship the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

[Harmonious]

You don't have to agree with our theology to apprehend it. God the Father turned away from His Son, who bore our sins.

I'm well aware that by Jewish theological understanding, the Christian doctrine of the Trinity is condemned as polytheism. You are also aware that we believe ourselves to be monotheists who worship the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

Yes, as ironic as that is. But we understand each other.

[Tucson Jim]

Yes, you should believe in the Trinity because it's true!

[Mathius]

Jesus is not God but is one with God. God and Jesus are one entity with different personalities. Any other way you look at it, it is polytheism, I don't care how you try and spin it.

[Harmonious]

Yes, you should believe in the Trinity because it's true!
No, it isn't. But I understand (kind of) your reasoning for believing in it. Kind of.

[Tucson Jim]

No, it isn't. But I understand (kind of) your reasoning for believing in it. Kind of.

Well . . . thank you . . . kind of!

[Tucson Jim]

No, it isn't. But I understand (kind of) your reasoning for believing in it. Kind of.

Actually, knowing you Harmonious, I do thank you for understanding. I know it's not easy. Thanks!

[DRS]

asked and answered.
God The Father. He is God the Son. They are one. See John 1. Ask me again I will tell you the same.

Who is the God of john 1 that no one has answered yet?

[DRS]

You don't have to agree with our theology to apprehend it. God the Father turned away from His Son, who bore our sins.

I'm well aware that by Jewish theological understanding, the Christian doctrine of the Trinity is condemned as polytheism. You are also aware that we believe ourselves to be monotheists who worship the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

How can that be when Jesus say never said he was their God?

He talked about another who was there God.

[Fire Watch]

Okay. I have a question. If Jesus was God, how could he say that God abandoned him?
You'd make a wonderful Oneness preacher...lol

[Harmonious]

You'd make a wonderful Oneness preacher...lol
That's the idea. :lol:

But I was trying to understand how the theory works.

[Mathius]

I don't know if E. Cayce was christian or not but he explains it the best. Jesus is the first soul to have completed the cycle listed below.


The plan for the soul is a cycle of experience that is unlimited in scope and duration. Through this evolutionary cycle, the soul will come to know the creation in all its aspects at the discretion of the will. The cycle would be completed when the desire of the will was no longer different from the thought of God. The consciousness of the soul would then merge with its spiritual consciousness of its identity with God. Then the soul will return to its source as the companion it was intended to be.

[Fire Watch]

That's the idea. :lol:

But I was trying to understand how the theory works.It's contradictory IMO at best. I know we dont agree on Jesus..but as far as the Oneness of God, we're together 100%.

[Renegade56]

Thats interesting because Genesis says let us make man in our image.
Elohim is plural.
and Immanuel means God with us - which was the prophecy.

So is scripture wrong or man?

Oh!, Oh!, I Know!, I Know!, Pick Me! Pick Me!, It's man isn't it?

[jakethe_snake]

God made us in his image, but when man sinnd the whole world fell to its kneese cause of are sin.
God is the only one who has made it through life without sinning!
Man is far from perfect...

[Rhonda]

Bump...because I love this thread

[prisonchaplain]

Who is the God of john 1 that no one has answered yet?

There is only one God, so what exactly is your question?

[Fire Watch]

There is only one God, so what exactly is your question?
Here, you're gonna need this...http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a373/reconrick/advil-ibuprofen.jpg

[prisonchaplain]

How can that be when Jesus say never said he was their God?

He talked about another who was there God.

Are you asking how it can be that Jesus would point people towards his Father, whom He came to represent?

[prisonchaplain]

Here, you're gonna need this...http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a373/reconrick/advil-ibuprofen.jpg

I use generic. Sometimes more is...well, more.

[Fire Watch]

lol

[DRS]

There is only one God, so what exactly is your question?


No in John 1:1 it talks about the word being toward the God and the word was god, which begs who is the God and why is "the" left out in translation?

[Warrior4God]

Are you asking how it can be that Jesus would point people towards his Father, whom He came to represent?

Yes why would he not say I am god,Jesus never lied so saying anything but I am God would be false IF the trinity were true

at least 150 times in the new testament it says Jesus Christ is the Son of God
Not once did he ever say I am God never did he say I came because of my own will
He was called the second Adam for a reason
If he were God........how easy it would be to acomplish what he did I mean heck He is God he can do anything.....one little problem is that we would still be waiting for the messiah... the first Adam blew it,The second Adam redeemed man to The one true God my Lords Father,My Father the same Father Jesus was subject to...Jesus answered to God and God answers to no one

[Warrior4God]

John 1:1
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. (NIV)
Logos=word The Word of God is the purpose and plan of God before the foundations of the world as we were called before the foundations of the world as Eph. describes
And the word of the Lord was Joseph’s helper (Gen. 39:2).
And Moses brought the people to meet the word of the Lord (Ex. 19:17).
And the word of the Lord accepted the face of Job (Job 42:9).
And the word of the Lord shall laugh them to scorn (Ps. 2:4).
They believed in the name of His word (Ps. 106:12). [18]
The above examples demonstrate that the Jews were familiar with the idea of God’s Word referring to His wisdom and action. This is especially important to note because these Jews were fiercely monotheistic, and did not in any way believe in a “Triune God.” They were familiar with the idioms of their own language, and understood that the wisdom and power of God were being personified as “word.”
in most versions of John logos is capitalized and translated “Word” (some versions even write “Jesus Christ” in John 1:1). However, a study of the Greek word logos shows that it occurs more than 300 times in the New Testament, and in both the NIV and the KJV it is capitalized only 7 times (and even those versions disagree on exactly when to capitalize it). When a word that occurs more than 300 times is capitalized fewer than 10 times, it is obvious that when to capitalize and when not to capitalize is a translators’ decision based on their particular understanding of Scripture.

As it is used throughout Scripture, logos has a very wide range of meanings along two basic lines of thought. One is the mind and products of the mind like “reason,” (thus “logic” is related to logos) and the other is the expression of that reason as a “word,” “saying,” “command” etc. The Bible itself demonstrates the wide range of meaning logos has, and some of the ways it is translated in Scripture are: account, appearance, book, command, conversation, eloquence, flattery, grievance, heard, instruction, matter, message, ministry, news, proposal, question, reason, reasonable, reply, report, rule, rumor, said, say, saying, sentence, speaker, speaking, speech, stories, story, talk, talking, teaching, testimony, thing, things, this, truths, what, why, word and words.

[ralittlefield]

John 1:1
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. (NIV)
Logos=word The Word of God is the purpose and plan of God before the foundations of the world as we were called before the foundations of the world as Eph. describes
And the word of the Lord was Joseph’s helper (Gen. 39:2).
And Moses brought the people to meet the word of the Lord (Ex. 19:17).
And the word of the Lord accepted the face of Job (Job 42:9).
And the word of the Lord shall laugh them to scorn (Ps. 2:4).
They believed in the name of His word (Ps. 106:12). [18]
The above examples demonstrate that the Jews were familiar with the idea of God’s Word referring to His wisdom and action. This is especially important to note because these Jews were fiercely monotheistic, and did not in any way believe in a “Triune God.” They were familiar with the idioms of their own language, and understood that the wisdom and power of God were being personified as “word.”
in most versions of John logos is capitalized and translated “Word” (some versions even write “Jesus Christ” in John 1:1). However, a study of the Greek word logos shows that it occurs more than 300 times in the New Testament, and in both the NIV and the KJV it is capitalized only 7 times (and even those versions disagree on exactly when to capitalize it). When a word that occurs more than 300 times is capitalized fewer than 10 times, it is obvious that when to capitalize and when not to capitalize is a translators’ decision based on their particular understanding of Scripture.

As it is used throughout Scripture, logos has a very wide range of meanings along two basic lines of thought. One is the mind and products of the mind like “reason,” (thus “logic” is related to logos) and the other is the expression of that reason as a “word,” “saying,” “command” etc. The Bible itself demonstrates the wide range of meaning logos has, and some of the ways it is translated in Scripture are: account, appearance, book, command, conversation, eloquence, flattery, grievance, heard, instruction, matter, message, ministry, news, proposal, question, reason, reasonable, reply, report, rule, rumor, said, say, saying, sentence, speaker, speaking, speech, stories, story, talk, talking, teaching, testimony, thing, things, this, truths, what, why, word and words.

None of this addresses the fact that John 1:1 clearly and plainly says that the Word was God.

Whatever other ways it has been used, here John says that the Word was God.

[hben]

Should You Believe in the Trinity?

Absolutely!

Is It Clearly a Bible Teaching?

Absolutely!

Thus, the testimony of the Bible and of history makes clear that the Trinity was unknown throughout Biblical times and for several centuries thereafter.Comments?

How could it have been unknown when the Bible speaks of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit throughout the New Testament? Does it matter whether or not the actual word "Trinity" was used or not? Is it the word "Trinity" that you have a problem with or the Father, Son and Holy Spirit?

[Poisonshady313]

Should You Believe in the Trinity?


No.

[prisonchaplain]

No in John 1:1 it talks about the word being toward the God and the word was god, which begs who is the God and why is "the" left out in translation?

That's the most awkward reading I've ever seen. Think of the scene. When creation began, the Word was already there. He was with God. In fact, He was God (afterall, everything else is created).

[Warrior4God]

None of this addresses the fact that John 1:1 clearly and plainly says that the Word was God.

Whatever other ways it has been used, here John says that the Word was God.
The Word of God is Gods purpose and plan for mankind, Jesus Christ is Gods plan

[prisonchaplain]

Yes why would he not say I am god,Jesus never lied so saying anything but I am God would be false IF the trinity were true

at least 150 times in the new testament it says Jesus Christ is the Son of God
Not once did he ever say I am God never did he say I came because of my own will

Jesus, the only begotten of God the Father, was a dutiful Son, was He not?

BTW, I've never heard of anyone begetting anything of an inferior nature to what they are. Humans beget humans, God beget . . .

[prisonchaplain]

BTW, why do you suppose Islam declares it a blasphemy to even suggest that God has a Son?

[Warrior4God]

That's the most awkward reading I've ever seen. Think of the scene. When creation began, the Word was already there. He was with God. In fact, He was God (afterall, everything else is created).

1. God is all wise, but Jesus grew in wisdom.

Luke 2:52
And Jesus grew in wisdom and stature, and in favor with God and men.

Hebrews 5:8 and 9
(8) Although he was a son, he learned obedience from what he suffered
(9) and, once made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him.

2. God has limitless knowledge, but Jesus had limited knowledge.

Mark 13:32 (RVS)
“But of that day or that hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.

3. God is, and always has been, perfect, but Jesus needed to attain perfection through his suffering.

Hebrews 2:10
In bringing many sons to glory, it was fitting that God, for whom and through whom everything exists, should make the author of their salvation perfect through suffering.

4. Jesus received holy spirit at his baptism. If Jesus were God and the holy spirit were God, then God would have been anointed with God by God. What purpose would this have served? We know why people are anointed, but what power could God give to Himself? Jesus was given the gift of holy spirit, the same gift he now gives to believers today.

Mark 1:9-11
(9) At that time Jesus came from Nazareth in Galilee and was baptized by John in the Jordan.
(10) As Jesus was coming up out of the water, he saw heaven being torn open and the Spirit descending on him like a dove.
(11) And a voice came from heaven: “You are my son, whom I love; with you I am well pleased.”

5. God cannot be tempted, but Jesus was tempted in every way just as we are.

James 1:13 (RSV)
Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am tempted by God”; for God cannot be tempted with evil and He himself tempts no one;

Hebrews 4:15
For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are—yet was without sin.

6. God does not need to be strengthened, but Jesus did.

Luke 22:43 and 44
(43) An angel from heaven appeared to him and strengthened him.
(44) And being in anguish, he prayed more earnestly, and his sweat was like drops of blood falling to the ground.

7. God cannot die. Scripture tells us that God is “immortal,” which means “not subject to death,” but Jesus died.

Romans 1:22 and 23
(22) Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools
(23) and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles.
Lets explain these verse shall we

[loubriel2000]

Yes very beautiful is the Word of God
Now show me where Jesus Christ says anything other then being the Son of God .Because there are in the New Testament seventeen passages, wherein the Father is styled one or only God, while there is not a single passage in which the Son is so styled.

Because there are 320 passages in which the Father is absolutely, and by way of eminence, called God; while there is not one in which the Son is thus called.

Because there are 105 passages in which the Father is denominated God, with peculiarly high titles and epithets, whereas the Son is not once denominated.

Because there are 90 passages wherein it is declared that all prayers and praises ought to be offered to Him, and that everything ought to be ultimately directed to his honor and glory; while of the Son no such declaration is ever made.

Because of 1,300 passages in the New Testament wherein the word God is mentioned, not one necessarily implies the existence of more than one person in the Godhead, or that this one is any other than the Father.

Because the passages wherein the Son is declared, positively, or by clearest implication, to be subordinate to the Father, deriving his being from Him, receiving from Him his divine power, and acting in all things wholly according to His will, are in number above 300.

Because, in a word, the supremacy of the Father, and the inferiority of the Son, is the simple, unembarrassed, and current doctrine of the Bible; whereas, that of their equality or identity is clothed in mystery, encumbered with difficulties, and dependent, at the best, upon few passages for support.

Read John 10:29-33 for starters.

[DRS]

Jesus, the only begotten of God the Father, was a dutiful Son, was He not?

BTW, I've never heard of anyone begetting anything of an inferior nature to what they are. Humans beget humans, God beget . . .

So how do you figure the one without beginning can make one equal to Him when that one has a beginning.

Jehovah is immortal, Jesus was killed and then raised to immortality.

[DRS]

That's the most awkward reading I've ever seen. Think of the scene. When creation began, the Word was already there. He was with God. In fact, He was God (afterall, everything else is created).

It is what the the original greek says, the word was toward the God.

[Warrior4God]

Read John 10:29-33 for starters.
John 10:33
“We are not stoning you for any of these,” replied the Jews, “but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God.” (NIV)

Any difficulty in understanding this verse is caused by the translators. Had they faithfully rendered the Greek text in verse 33 as they did in verses 34 and 35, then it would read, “…you, a man, claim to be a god.” In the next two verses, John 10:34 and 35, the exact same word (theos, without the article) is translated as “god,” not “God.”
You know as well as I do he never once said he was God

Jesus is not ashamed to call us his “brothers,” because we have the same Father he does. The Bible teaches that we are “brothers” of Jesus and “sons of God.” Scripture never says or even infers that we are “brothers of God.”

Hebrews 2:10 and 11
In bringing many sons to glory, it was fitting that God, for whom and through whom everything exists, should make the author of their salvation perfect through suffering.
Both the one who makes men holy and those who are made holy are of the same family. So Jesus is not ashamed to call them brothers.

We are commissioned to do “greater works” than Jesus. This would be absurd if Jesus were God, because then we disciples would be commissioned to do greater works than God does.

John 14:12 (KJV)
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

Scripture says that God is spirit; yet even after his resurrection Jesus said of himself that he was not a spirit, but flesh and bone.

John 4:23
God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in spirit and in truth.

Luke 24:39 (KJV)
Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

How do we explain these verses away
People keep neglecting these verses and the ones in the previous post and just throw out what few trinity verses there are that are all too easily explained
there are thousands of verses that show Jesus Christ as the Son of God
and that God almighty is the ONE true God not 3 in 1

[ralittlefield]

The Word of God is Gods purpose and plan for mankind, Jesus Christ is Gods plan

John is plainly saying that Jesus is God.

You are so spinning this verse!

Just read the text: The Word was with God, and the Word was God.

[Warrior4God]

BTW, why do you suppose Islam declares it a blasphemy to even suggest that God has a Son?

Theres a good argument for 3 in 1
Your kidding right?

[DRS]

John is plainly saying that Jesus is God.

You are so spinning this verse!

Just read the text: The Word was with God, and the Word was God.

And John also say no man has seen God at anytime.

Not once but twice

Once in John 1:18

and

(1 John 4:12) At no time has anyone beheld God. If we continue loving one another, God remains in us and his love is made perfect in us.

[ralittlefield]

John 10:33
“We are not stoning you for any of these,” replied the Jews, “but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God.” (NIV)

Any difficulty in understanding this verse is caused by the translators. Had they faithfully rendered the Greek text in verse 33 as they did in verses 34 and 35, then it would read, “…you, a man, claim to be a god.” In the next two verses, John 10:34 and 35, the exact same word (theos, without the article) is translated as “god,” not “God.”
You know as well as I do he never once said he was God





In verse 28 Jesus claims to give eternal life.
No one gives life except God

I don't see how anyone can doubt that the Jews knew that He was claiming to be God.

[DRS]

In verse 28 Jesus claims to give eternal life.
No one gives life except God

I don't see how anyone can doubt that the Jews knew that He was claiming to be God.

If you read John the first part of 17 you would see Jesus aknowledges the reason he can do this is he was given authority, why would God need premission or authorization from someone else?

[ralittlefield]

If you read John the first part of 17 you would see Jesus aknowledges the reason he can do this is he was given authority, why would God need premission or authorization from someone else?

Do you not think that equals can share and exchange authority?

My wife and I are equals, but we get permission from each other and give each other authority all the time.

[DRS]

Do you not think that equals can share and exchange authority?

My wife and I are equals, but we get permission from each other and give each other authority all the time.

Show me one instance where Jehovah ever has to recieve authorization from Jesus?

And at no time ever in any illustration or in in any Ot pre insights into what was to happen are the two ever equal, it is always father and son.

[ralittlefield]

Show me one instance where Jehovah ever has to recieve authorization from Jesus?

And at no time ever in any illustration or in in any Ot pre insights into what was to happen are the two ever equal, it is always father and son.

Father and Son are equal. Both are God. They may have different authority at different times, but they are equal.

[DRS]

Father and Son are equal. Both are God. They may have different authority at different times, but they are equal.

Sons are heirs never equals, sons are obedient to there father.

If sons are equal the you have another problem because all of the angels are called sons of God.

[prisonchaplain]

Sons are heirs never equals, sons are obedient to there father.

If sons are equal the you have another problem because all of the angels are called sons of God.

Sons are never unequal in nature to their fathers. Again, why do you suppose Muslims consider it blasphemy to say that God has a begotten Son?

I know of no scripture that indicates that angels are begotten sons of the Father.

[ralittlefield]

Sons are heirs never equals, sons are obedient to there father.

If sons are equal the you have another problem because all of the angels are called sons of God.

Fathers and sons are always equals. They are the same species. They may not have the same authority of responsibility, but they are equal.

[ralittlefield]

Sons are never unequal in nature to their fathers.

I know of no scripture that indicates that angels are begotten sons of the Father.

Hey! You stole my thunder! ;)

[DRS]

Sons are never unequal in nature to their fathers. Again, why do you suppose Muslims consider it blasphemy to say that God has a begotten Son?

I know of no scripture that indicates that angels are begotten sons of the Father.

There are called sons of God.

Jesus is called the only begotten son, because he alone was begotten by God, all other creation is through Jesus.

[DRS]

Hey! You stole my thunder! ;)

Well here is one for you who is the head of the house the father or the son?

[ralittlefield]

Well here is one for you who is the head of the house the father or the son?

That is a question of position, not a question of equality.

All men are created equal.

[Warrior4God]

So the verses in my 2 posts you stay away from there are a few 100 more but would like these explained first
You know why? You can not or you would
If I believed the trinity I guess that would be what I would do to avoid the obvious
so thats cool
Just blows my mind your answer is always throw out a verse thats easlily explained rather then explain the obvious

[ralittlefield]

Well here is one for you who is the head of the house the father or the son?


In my house I am the head, my father is not.

[DRS]

In my house I am the head, my father is not.

But the entire universe is Jehovah's house so guess what He is the head.

And if you do not think Jehovah is the head of Jesus then take it up with Paul.

[ralittlefield]

So the verses in my 2 posts you stay away from there are a few 100 more but would like these explained first
You know why? You can not or you would
If I believed the trinity I guess that would be what I would do to avoid the obvious
so thats cool
Just blows my mind your answer is always throw out a verse thats easlily explained rather then explain the obvious

The verses you posted showing Jesus in submission to the Father are explained in Phil 2.

[DRS]

That is a question of position, not a question of equality.

All men are created equal.

Jehovah is without beginning or creation, Jesus is the only one created alone by God.

Adam was created by God, everyone else came through Adam.

So not all creation is equal, try using scriptures instead of pices of govermental papers.

[DRS]

The verses you posted showing Jesus in submission to the Father are explained in Phil 2.

What where the son never tries to grab equality with the God?

[rsuhls]

But the entire universe is Jehovah's house so guess what He is the head.



And if you do not think Jehovah is the head of Jesus then take it up with Paul.

Like to see what scripture says Jehovah is the father since I think Jehovah and Christ are the same and both are the son.

The father is Elohim; Jehovah (chist) is the son. Two differnt people.

[ralittlefield]

But the entire universe is Jehovah's house so guess what He is the head.

And if you do not think Jehovah is the head of Jesus then take it up with Paul.


You miss my point.

Does the fact that I have authority over my father when he is in my house mean that I am greater than my father? No, it does not. All humans are equal.

Even so, all three members of the Trinity are equal because they are God.

[ralittlefield]

What where the son never tries to grab equality with the God?

No, I am speaking of where He is willing to let it go.

[rsuhls]

You miss my point.

Does the fact that I have authority over my father when he is in my house mean that I am greater than my father? No, it does not. All humans are equal.

Even so, all three members of the Trinity are equal because they are God.

I agree but then again I think they are three sperate beings, the Father, the son, and the Holy Ghost. One God but spearte beings...equal in power and Authority but sperate entities.

[trettep]

Should You Believe in the Trinity?
....

Thus, the testimony of the Bible and of history makes clear that the Trinity was unknown throughout Biblical times and for several centuries thereafter.Comments?

Let me add that the salutations of all the epistles EXCLUDES the Holy Spirit. Why? - obviously, they didn't view the Holy Spirit as a PERSON separate from God. But let's go even further. We have a few things that we can learn about this relationship from. Consider that God made man in His image (male and female) created he them. There we have some evidence. For we know the woman is under subjection to the man as he is the head of the woman. She (Eve) came from Adam's flesh and they became ONE FLESH.

Now let's think about what we can derive from the account of man. We have the following:

In the beginning was the Rib, and the Rib was with Adam, and the Rib was Adam.

The Rib here referring to Eve but more importantly the use of the word RIB is to identify it as a SUBSTANCE of Adam. That SUBSTANCE is also how they are one for it is FLESH. It is by EVE that all children are born unto Adam. It is by the Christ that all are born unto the Father in Heaven (God). As Adam and Eve are ONE FLESH - The Father and the Son are ONE - SPIRIT. But they are not the SAME PERSON just as ADAM and EVE are not the SAME person. We need to learn from this creation that God gave us for it is RICH with knowledge of our Creator and His intentions.

Paul

[Warrior4God]

Let me add that the salutations of all the epistles EXCLUDES the Holy Spirit. Why? - obviously, they didn't view the Holy Spirit as a PERSON separate from God. But let's go even further. We have a few things that we can learn about this relationship from. Consider that God made man in His image (male and female) created he them. There we have some evidence. For we know the woman is under subjection to the man as he is the head of the woman. She (Eve) came from Adam's flesh and they became ONE FLESH.

Now let's think about what we can derive from the account of man. We have the following:

In the beginning was the Rib, and the Rib was with Adam, and the Rib was Adam.

The Rib here referring to Eve but more importantly the use of the word RIB is to identify it as a SUBSTANCE of Adam. That SUBSTANCE is also how they are one for it is FLESH. It is by EVE that all children are born unto Adam. It is by the Christ that all are born unto the Father in Heaven (God). As Adam and Eve are ONE FLESH - The Father and the Son are ONE - SPIRIT. But they are not the SAME PERSON just as ADAM and EVE are not the SAME person. We need to learn from this creation that God gave us for it is RICH with knowledge of our Creator and His intentions.

Paul

Good point

[Warrior4God]

The verses you posted showing Jesus in submission to the Father are explained in Phil 2.

yes they do but not that he is God just the opposite read the whole context

[prisonchaplain]

There are called sons of God.

Jesus is called the only begotten son, because he alone was begotten by God, all other creation is through Jesus.

Humans and angels were created by the Father, and so are the children of his creativity. It's sort of like when an artist creates a masterpiece, and considers it his/her child.

Jesus begotten OF the Father. He is what the FAther is, just as we are what our fathers are. Nature begets nature, Creator creates creation. This is why Jesus is God, and why Muslims (and probably Jews) consider it blasphemous to say that God begets anyone.

[prisonchaplain]

What where the son never tries to grab equality with the God?

More like where the Son does not find it necessary to keep a hold of his equality with the Father, but rather WILLINGLY makes himself a little lower than the angels.

[Chill-Factor]

More like where the Son does not find it necessary to keep a hold of his equality with the Father, but rather WILLINGLY makes himself a little lower than the angels.

In the context of the chapter, that's exactly what it's stating. Paul is telling believers to humble themselves... we are to consider others, more then ourselves. It's as plain as day, I can't understand, how they miss it.
With all that glory, Christ was not reluctant to leave it, it pleased Him to leave, because He loves us. There's no greater love!
Why would anyone want to serve a God, that would allow a creature to perform the greatest act of love?

[Chill-Factor]

God cannot be tempted, but Jesus was tempted in every way just as we are.


And he called the name of the place Massah, and Meribah, because of the chiding of the children of Israel, and because they tempted the LORD, saying, Is the LORD among us, or not?

Because all those men which have seen my glory, and my miracles, which I did in Egypt and in the wilderness, and have tempted me now these ten times, and have not hearkened to my voice;

Ye shall not tempt the LORD your God, as ye tempted [him] in Massah

And they tempted God in their heart by asking meat for their lust

Yet they tempted and provoked the most high God, and kept not his testimonies:

When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my work

But lusted exceedingly in the wilderness, and tempted God in the desert.

[Chill-Factor]

Let me add that the salutations of all the epistles EXCLUDES the Holy Spirit. Why? - obviously, they didn't view the Holy Spirit as a PERSON separate from God. l

The epistles were written to born again believers...the Holy Sprit dwells within born again believers, He "greets" us, in person.

[Chill-Factor]

Hey! You stole my thunder! ;)

It's raining false doctrines, there will be lots of opportunities, for you thunder.
Too many!

[trettep]

The epistles were written to born again believers...the Holy Sprit dwells within born again believers, He "greets" us, in person.

Here are those salutations - notice each is void of the Holy Spirit:

James 1:1
(1) James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.


2 Peter 1:2
(2) Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord,


1 John 1:3
(3) That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.


Romans 1:7
(7) To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.


1 Corinthians 1:3
(3) Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.


2 Corinthians 1:2
(2) Grace be to you and peace from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.


Galatians 1:3
(3) Grace be to you and peace from God the Father, and from our Lord Jesus Christ,


Ephesians 1:2
(2) Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.


Philippians 1:2
(2) Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.


Colossians 1:2
(2) To the saints and faithful brethren in Christ which are at Colosse: Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.


1 Thessalonians 1:1
(1) Paul, and Silvanus, and Timotheus, unto the church of the Thessalonians which is in God the Father and in the Lord Jesus Christ: Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.


2 Thessalonians 1:2
(2) Grace unto you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.


1 Timothy 1:1-2
(1) Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the commandment of God our Saviour, and Lord Jesus Christ, which is our hope; (2) Unto Timothy, my own son in the faith: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God our Father and Jesus Christ our Lord.


Titus 1:4
(4) To Titus, mine own son after the common faith: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ our Saviour.


Philemon 1:3
(3) Grace to you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

[lucky]

Here are those salutations - notice each is void of the Holy Spirit:

James 1:1
(1) James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.


2 Peter 1:2
(2) Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord,


1 John 1:3
(3) That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.


Romans 1:7
(7) To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.


1 Corinthians 1:3
(3) Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.


2 Corinthians 1:2
(2) Grace be to you and peace from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.


Galatians 1:3
(3) Grace be to you and peace from God the Father, and from our Lord Jesus Christ,


Ephesians 1:2
(2) Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.


Philippians 1:2
(2) Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.


Colossians 1:2
(2) To the saints and faithful brethren in Christ which are at Colosse: Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.


1 Thessalonians 1:1
(1) Paul, and Silvanus, and Timotheus, unto the church of the Thessalonians which is in God the Father and in the Lord Jesus Christ: Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.


2 Thessalonians 1:2
(2) Grace unto you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.


1 Timothy 1:1-2
(1) Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the commandment of God our Saviour, and Lord Jesus Christ, which is our hope; (2) Unto Timothy, my own son in the faith: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God our Father and Jesus Christ our Lord.


Titus 1:4
(4) To Titus, mine own son after the common faith: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ our Saviour.


Philemon 1:3
(3) Grace to you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

How do the verses that include the Holy Spirit like in Acts 2 when they personify the coming of the Holy Spirit? How about the baptismal formula given in Matthew? What does that do the whole New Testament and its witness of the Spirit of God. How about in Timothy where Scripture is said to be "God breathed," which one way of saying the Spirit of God inspired the writers.

[trettep]

How do the verses that include the Holy Spirit like in Acts 2 when they personify the coming of the Holy Spirit? How about the baptismal formula given in Matthew? What does that do the whole New Testament and its witness of the Spirit of God. How about in Timothy where Scripture is said to be "God breathed," which one way of saying the Spirit of God inspired the writers.

The Holy Spirit is "BEING". Consider for example:

KJV (emphasis mine)
1Co 2:10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
1Co 2:11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.

Here we have God's (The Father's) Spirit being compared to that of the spirit that is in man. (Remember that man is created in the likeness of God) We don't have a SEPARATE person living in us. We have a Spirit that defines our own very BEING. Ever notice that the Holy Spirit is compared to wind. Blow out of your mouth and you will get wind but make WORDS and now that wind coming out of your mouth is much much more than wind. It carries your being. It is a means by which someone can KNOW you for it contains your being. This is how God gives us His very own BEING that we must conform to that He manifested in the FLESH in our Lord Jesus.

Paul

[lucky]

The Holy Spirit is "BEING". Consider for example:

KJV (emphasis mine)
1Co 2:10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
1Co 2:11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.

Here we have God's (The Father's) Spirit being compared to that of the spirit that is in man. (Remember that man is created in the likeness of God) We don't have a SEPARATE person living in us. We have a Spirit that defines our own very BEING. Ever notice that the Holy Spirit is compared to wind. Blow out of your mouth and you will get wind but make WORDS and now that wind coming out of your mouth is much much more than wind. It carries your being. It is a means by which someone can KNOW you for it contains your being. This is how God gives us His very own BEING that we must conform to that He manifested in the FLESH in our Lord Jesus.

Paul
Actually, we as Christians live in community and speak as ourselves as one with many. The same is true in Scripture. God is spoken as a community of three and looked at as one.

Yes, also God is said to comfort us with His breast and has wings like an eagle. However, we should know that ancient man is known to have used similie, figurative, and metaphorical language in their writing, especially poetry, prophecy, and apocalyptic literautre.

[trettep]

Actually, we as Christians live in community and speak as ourselves as one with many. The same is true in Scripture. God is spoken as a community of three and looked at as one.

Yes, also God is said to comfort us with His breast and has wings like an eagle. However, we should know that ancient man is known to have used similie, figurative, and metaphorical language in their writing, especially poetry, prophecy, and apocalyptic literautre.

Lucky, you need to study what I posted more. I know your trying to educate me about what the Bible says about the Trinity but I have already been in the Trinity camp and have come to believe otherwise. I'm not trying to come across as uninterested but there is no substance to the doctrine. I think many people that preach it have placed as their source of truth the very faith (statement of beliefs from a organizational standpoint) they embrace rather than the scriptures (The Word) themselves.

Paul

[lucky]

Lucky, you need to study what I posted more. I know your trying to educate me about what the Bible says about the Trinity but I have already been in the Trinity camp and have come to believe otherwise. I'm not trying to come across as uninterested but there is no substance to the doctrine. I think many people that preach it have placed as their source of truth the very faith (statement of beliefs from a organizational standpoint) they embrace rather than the scriptures (The Word) themselves.

Paul
So, when the cannon was put together by trinitarians did they feel there was a doctrine of the trinity in the books placed into the cannon? Because one doesn't understand the concept of the trinity doesn't mean it doesn't exist, does it? What about the gnostic who wrote about early Christian believing in a God of three?

[trettep]

So, when the cannon was put together by trinitarians did they feel there was a doctrine of the trinity in the books placed into the cannon? Because one doesn't understand the concept of the trinity doesn't mean it doesn't exist, does it? What about the gnostic who wrote about early Christian believing in a God of three?

Where do you find that the scriptures tell us to have a canon?

Paul

[lucky]

Where do you find that the scriptures tell us to have a canon?

Paul
The canon is the 66 books placed in one book called the "Bible". So I am not sure about your questionn?

[trettep]

The canon is the 66 books placed in one book called the "Bible". So I am not sure about your questionn?

Lucky, there have been several canons and even today there is embrace more than one canon of scripture. Men are the ones that came up with certain canon's and even among them there were disputes at to what was inspired or not. Therefore, your response about those Trinity adherents that organizing a canon carries no weight whatsoever about what each of us should consider inspired as the Word of God. I believe some writings are inspired that were in canons at one time and there were out at another time by various parties. To give you an example of one such piece would be the Epistle of Barnabas. To be more modern I'm sure you understand that what you call the BIBLE is a term that is used by many faiths and in those faiths we find a different number in the books counted. A simply understanding is the number of the books in the Protestant canon verses those in the Catholic canon yet each considered their canon the BIBLE.

Paul