Should You Believe In The Trinity?

[Tucson Jim]

The judges of Israel were not false gods, there were called gods because they acted on behalf of The Almighty and with Holy Spirit.

There is only one God. Anything else is a false god.

[Poisonshady313]

Thomas called Jesus "My Lord and My God".

he shouldn't have.

[Ron Jon]

The spirit is part of God, it is a force the He uses to the work that He wants, and gives it to others to do. For instance it was through the spirit inspiration that bible writers recorded for us the bible. That is why all scriptures are inspired of God. It is used to direct us.

It would be as if you I were walking along and I take you by the hand to guide you, if you start pulling away or twisting from it, I can say you are hurting the arm, you are hurting me or you are hurting my arm. All are the same thing yet you would never assume my arm is it's own personage.

The hebrew word ruach means spirit, wind and breathe, all impersonal forces and many times through the bible when the spirit is persent so is wind.

I am not God but I am made in His image with mych of the same qualities including just one personality, if i exhibit more than one I am suffering from a form of mental illness, that would make interaction with others very difficut and very hard to understand. Now you have to ask who benefits by making God difficult for us to undeerstand and comprehend?What does Hebrews 3:7-11 say in your Bible? Now compare that with Psalm 95:7-11

[Ron Jon]

So Lucifer has no choice in being evil and going against God?Unless I'm mistaken, Jews do not consider Lucifer or Satan as evil. Rather he is a tool of God. God uses Satan as He would any other angel to do His bidding and accomplish His will.

[HisServant]

No he is a god that is inferior to Jehovah by his own words.

So now you believe there are 2 gods. Not one as scripture teaches?

[Angryamerican]

So now you believe there are 2 gods. Not one as scripture teaches?

Yes i believe Jesus is a god. I believe he is inferior to his Father. I believe only one of them is to be worshipped. I believe even Jesus worships Jehovah and i believe we all serve and worship this one Jehovah and by this we are not putting any other gods before him.


We know that angels are greater than man what makes them greater their perfection and the powers they possess?


Are not angels god like ?

Do they have similar powers of a god?

Do you not try to say three gods make up one GOD?

[Angryamerican]

There is only one God. Anything else is a false god.

Why would Christ call satan a god if he wasn't a god?

[Angryamerican]

What does Hebrews 3:7-11 say in your Bible? Now compare that with Psalm 95:7-11

Is not the Holy Spirit the power of God?


Does not the holy Spirit do the will of God?


Ruach hebrew word meaning wind or breath so is the Holy Spirit the wind or breath of God?

[Angryamerican]

So now you believe there are 2 gods. Not one as scripture teaches?

Did not the deciples know who and what Jesus was?

Did they not see him pray to his Father and God?

If they thought Jesus was God they would have thought Jesus was nuts always puting an unseen force ahead of himself.

He was always giving credit to another and making his Fathers name known to men.

[HisServant]

Jesus didn't create the world. God did.

Glad you said that. Those who believe in the NT use the scriptures that show that Jesus created the world as proof that He is God. No need to reply we know you don't accept NT scripture. Hence why we believe what we do.

[HisServant]

Okay. PM me when I can come back to this conversation.

You are welcome anytime my friend. Just trying to help you understand that we believe that the NT is the Word of God. Since you do not it makes no sense to argue the point since we will never agree. We say according to NT Jesus created the World and according to Genesis God did. Hence Jesus is God. Since you do not believe in the NT we understand you don't accept this.

[HisServant]

Sure is less active than, then the interactice role as prophet in the flesh, hesling the illnesses of others and talking to people en masse.

None of which would be possible or neccessary had not Jesus created the world, which to you is not significant. :rolleyes: I really don't follow your line of thinking.

[HisServant]

So lets see now you have shown he died, and he was the son of man and fully man.

Guess the greek thought on God be everywhere is null here, good to see you recognize that.

Only begotten and first born, Jesus is the beginning.

Firstborn does not mean first created. This is where you fail. The Logos always existed.

[HisServant]

Do you believe it is possible that God gave the needed power to angels to have a hand in creation, much like He gave man the abiblity to procreate?

Look forward to your answer in the meantime I am off to work.

DRS it does not matter what someone believes it matters what scripture says. Why not look at what the Bible teaches instead of what man teaches.

There is nothing in scripture that suggest such a thing. Therefore anyone who would suggest it is merely speculating and guessing. It is an opinion based on human thought.

[HisServant]

No. God sought their counsel, but God did all the creating.

:) Thanks!

I would love to see the supporting scripture verse. Thanks.

[HisServant]

Were you or not agreeing with one who said Jesus is God but he didn't believe in the trinity?

His name is escaping me.

If you would read carefully you would notice I have stated clearly and repeatedly the same thing. Jesus is God. Jesus is not God the Father. If I have agreed with anyone it is to say yes Jesus is God.

[HisServant]

Good point i stand corrected.

Thanks I have my moments just as at times you have yours. :)

[HisServant]

I wonder why we see things differently we both have studied the bible the same length of time.

I do say there are some scriptures that make us stop and say whoa but i don't see how the trinity doctrine could have come about without someone wanting to see God in that manner.

There is just too many contradictions from a biblical stand point. as well as common sense and reasoning.

I tried to go through the process of showing you in Genesis then I was gonna go to the NT. You would not answer my questions. Then you denied the NT then you just changed the subject. If you would like to start over I will attempt to show you that Jesus is God. Then we can see the Holy Spirit as well. Just using scripture.

[HisServant]

How can God expect man to worship him if we can't understand who and what he is?

Do you have children?

[Angryamerican]

None of which would be possible or neccessary had not Jesus created the world, which to you is not significant. :rolleyes: I really don't follow your line of thinking.

Did God give all authority to Jesus to do what he did?


So wouldn't that cover creation as well?

[HisServant]

Got your back Servant,These scientifisists, expect us to research science, which we do, and then THEY, do a Bible Gateway search, which does not produce a verse that "NAILS" (somehow overlooked), a trinity definition. A Bible Gateway search of God the Father, Son of God, and Holy Ghost, produces evidence of a trinity. Where have all the Christians gone?

It is sad that unless we understand we cannot accept. Is there not a verse about lean not on your own understanding but in all our ways acknowledging God? :think:

Sounds like another verse has been inserted lean on your understanding and do your best to comprehend all there is, use logic if possible. Then once having done it follow me.

[Angryamerican]

Firstborn does not mean first created. This is where you fail. The Logos always existed.

No this is where you get the meaning of firstborn wrong.

It means ones oldest child if Jesus was first that would make him the oldest child.

[Angryamerican]

I tried to go through the process of showing you in Genesis then I was gonna go to the NT. You would not answer my questions. Then you denied the NT then you just changed the subject. If you would like to start over I will attempt to show you that Jesus is God. Then we can see the Holy Spirit as well. Just using scripture.

I would love to but i'm waiting to see what time i have to leave for work i will not be on as much as i use to.

I go back and forth to North Carolina on business but i will be popping in from time to time.

[HisServant]

The judges of Israel were not false gods, there were called gods because they acted on behalf of The Almighty and with Holy Spirit.

DRS you seem to have a serious problem with imagery and poetry and reality.
When you call someone pig headed, does that mean they have a head like a pig? When someone says Michael Jordan is like a basketball god, does that mean there is a basketball god? Does it mean he is one? I don't think scripture is trying to say what you are implying. It is using contrast and imagery. It is using terms that we as mortals can understand. When God says to Moses I will make you as god to them. It does not mean Moses is a god. It does not mean there are gods. It is a contrast comparison statement. You misapply its meaning and thus remove it from context.
There is only 1 God. Beside Him there is no other. Not false, not little, not a god. There is none. Meditate on that let is sink in. There is none beside Him and there is none like Him. Why the distinction of none like Him? :think:

[Angryamerican]

Do you have children?

Yes 8 of the little rascals.

[HisServant]

How do we know for sure that God did not allow angels to have a hand in creation?

He let angels act as spokesmen

As a sword

The bible is full of examples of where God allows men to do things He Himself could have done.

DRS because the Bible is specific on who created. That excludes everyone else.

[Angryamerican]

It is sad that unless we understand we cannot accept. Is there not a verse about lean not on your own understanding but in all our ways acknowledging God? :think:

Sounds like another verse has been inserted lean on your understanding and do your best to comprehend all there is, use logic if possible. Then once having done it follow me.


Logic and the trinity don't mix sorry i couldn't resist.:))

[HisServant]

Actually Thomas a Jew would be famaliar with calling ones who represent The Almighty god.

As we see here an angel is speaking to Jacob

. 11*Then the angel of the [true] God said to me in the dream, ‘Jacob!’ to which I said, ‘Here I am.’ 12*And he continued, ‘Raise your eyes, please, and see all the he-goats springing upon the flock are striped, speckled and spotty, for I have seen all that La′ban is doing to you. 13*I am the [true] God of Beth′el, where you anointed a pillar and where you vowed a vow to me. Now get up, go out of this land and return to the land of your birth.’”
Thomas saw Jesus pray and knew who was preaying too.

Yet the bible writer knowing who the angel is representing refers to the angel as God in verse 13.

:eek:

What???????

[HisServant]

Because God is the Creator. The angels are the Created. Only God can create something from nothing. Angels, who have no free will of their own, would have no desire to create anything, even if they could. But they couldn't.

So they weren't part of the creating aspect of Creation.

Which then brings us to who the "us" is in Genesis 1.

[HisServant]

he shouldn't have.

Unless it is true. Which we believe and thus he did.

[HisServant]

Yes i believe Jesus is a god. I believe he is inferior to his Father. I believe only one of them is to be worshipped. I believe even Jesus worships Jehovah and i believe we all serve and worship this one Jehovah and by this we are not putting any other gods before him.


We know that angels are greater than man what makes them greater their perfection and the powers they possess?


Are not angels god like ?

Do they have similar powers of a god?

Do you not try to say three gods make up one GOD?
You have now violated a lot of scripture. The most prominant being.
THERE IS NO OTHER GOD BESIDE ME.

None means none. Not one, not any. There is no other god or gods.

[HisServant]

Did not the deciples know who and what Jesus was?

Did they not see him pray to his Father and God?

If they thought Jesus was God they would have thought Jesus was nuts always puting an unseen force ahead of himself.

He was always giving credit to another and making his Fathers name known to men.

That was his mission and purpose. For man to see God. To have a relationship with Him. To show that man can by the power of God and the Holy Spirit live for God a holy and blameless life. Why do you keep missing that point?

[Harmonious]

So Lucifer has no choice in being evil and going against God?
Nope. Lucifer isn't evil. If Lucifer = Satan, it is an angel doing exactly what God wants it to do.

[Harmonious]

The angels observed creation.
Sure, they observed it. But they didn't take part in Creating it.

[DRS]

There is only one God. Anything else is a false god.

So you would have not listened to Moses and the other judges of Israel and told Jehovah He was wrong to call them gods?

[HisServant]

Did God give all authority to Jesus to do what he did?


So wouldn't that cover creation as well?

What verse supports this? As I see it They created together. AS I see it Jesus willingly did things. AS I see it all authority was given to Him when He became flesh and subjected Himself to The Father.

[HisServant]

No this is where you get the meaning of firstborn wrong.

It means ones oldest child if Jesus was first that would make him the oldest child.

Sorry you are incorrect. This has already been covered. It does not mean a physically firstborn child. It denotes a position of authority like birthright which can be given to a second born son in the case of Jacob. Jesus was not created but He was in position of authority the first born of all creation.

[Angryamerican]

Unless it is true. Which we believe and thus he did.


I showed where thomas called Jesus lord and god it still did not imply he was the Almighty according to the greek.

It didn't imply Jehovah or the Almighty at all.

It showed his authority.

[HisServant]

Yes 8 of the little rascals.

Do they always understand why you say no to things they want?

[Angryamerican]

Sorry you are incorrect. This has already been covered. It does not mean a physically firstborn child. It denotes a position of authority like birthright which can be given to a second born son in the case of Jacob. Jesus was not created but He was in position of authority the first born of all creation.

Would not the firstborn of all represent authority?

We know he has authority even from his birth as a man.

[DRS]

How does that work? If you say that God is Jesus' father, God wasn't dead.

Who said that Jesus' father was dead?

Joseph his adoptive father and for earthly records was his father, also places Jesus to be the king. Joseph's death is nomentioned in the scriptures but before his death Jesus entrusted the care of his mother to John one of his disciples, which shows as oldest son he was probably caring for his mother.

[Angryamerican]

Do they always understand why you say no to things they want?

In my house no means no and yes they understand that they don't even question it.

But sometimes i explain why.

[Harmonious]

I would love to see the supporting scripture verse. Thanks.
Genesis 1:27 in Hebrew says:

Vayivra Elohim et ha'adam b'tzalmo b'tzelem elohim bara oto zachar un'keiva bara otam.

God created man in His image. In the image of God, He created him; male and female He created them.

The word Vayivra is singular for "he created." Therefore, with a singular verb, it is obvious that God alone did the creating. Otherwise, the Hebrew would have a plural verb for creating.

[DRS]

Sorry you are incorrect. This has already been covered. It does not mean a physically firstborn child. It denotes a position of authority like birthright which can be given to a second born son in the case of Jacob. Jesus was not created but He was in position of authority the first born of all creation.

The fact he is called the beginning of the creation by God shows he is the first creation.

[Harmonious]

Which then brings us to who the "us" is in Genesis 1.

God spoke to the angels for counsel. But when it came to the creating, God did it all by Himself.

[DRS]

Nope. Lucifer isn't evil. If Lucifer = Satan, it is an angel doing exactly what God wants it to do.

So you are saying God wanted Job to get sick and have his children put to death?

[DRS]

:eek:

What???????

You know this is why you start with the OT and why God had the OT written for us to learn, and understand.

Try studying the OT then move to the NT, then you understand it a whole lot easier, and are not asking what when verses like the one I quoted are posted.

[Harmonious]

Joseph his adoptive father and for earthly records was his father, also places Jesus to be the king. Joseph's death is nomentioned in the scriptures but before his death Jesus entrusted the care of his mother to John one of his disciples, which shows as oldest son he was probably caring for his mother.I've been through this countless times before.

Joseph was Jesus' adoptive father. That makes Joseph a good man. But the kingship does not pass from Joseph to Jesus. This is simple Jewish law, and why you insist that it did... doesn't make sense to me. If Jesus was the biological son of God, Jesus had no tribe. If Jesus was the biological son of a Roman soldier, Jesus certainly has no tribe. Either way, Jesus had no tribe, and was not fit to be king.

So if Joseph died, that has no bearing on the biological father, be it God or a Roman soldier.

[Harmonious]

So you are saying God wanted Job to get sick and have his children put to death?

Don't ask me why God chooses to do things.

For the same token, you can ask about why God allowed the Holocaust to happen. The answer I will give you is plain and simple: I don't know. But it wouldn't have happened if God didn't allow it to happen.

Don't ask me why. I don't know.

[DRS]

I've been through this countless times before.

Joseph was Jesus' adoptive father. That makes Joseph a good man. But the kingship does not pass from Joseph to Jesus. This is simple Jewish law, and why you insist that it did... doesn't make sense to me. If Jesus was the biological son of God, Jesus had no tribe. If Jesus was the biological son of a Roman soldier, Jesus certainly has no tribe. Either way, Jesus had no tribe, and was not fit to be king.

So if Joseph died, that has no bearing on the biological father, be it God or a Roman soldier.

Jesus had no interest in an Earthly kingdom, espicially as he knew God was going to have Jerusalem destroyed shortly, if you choose to not to accept one sent by Jehovah that is your choice and between you and Him.

[Harmonious]

Jesus had no interest in an Earthly kingdom, espicially as he knew God was going to have Jerusalem destroyed shortly, if you choose to not to accept one sent by Jehovah that is your choice and between you and Him.A Jewish king is a Jewish king, and we have rules about that kind of thing, you know.

And if you choose to believe in a Jew who didn't even know to follow the Rabbis, that is between you and your own conscience.

[DRS]

Don't ask me why God chooses to do things.

For the same token, you can ask about why God allowed the Holocaust to happen. The answer I will give you is plain and simple: I don't know. But it wouldn't have happened if God didn't allow it to happen.

Don't ask me why. I don't know.

See this is where you do kind of miss out on some understandings, Satan is not doing the will of God. The Holocaust happened, because of the influence of Satan on the world around us. Satan delights in misery and causing humans to not do the will of God. He enjoys it when people blame Jehovah for their suffering.

[DRS]

A Jewish king is a Jewish king, and we have rules about that kind of thing, you know.

And if you choose to believe in a Jew who didn't even know to follow the Rabbis, that is between you and your own conscience.

Be accpeted by men has no bearing on wether I choose to accpet one as being from God. Many prophets were not liked by the leaders in their day.

[HisServant]

Logic and the trinity don't mix sorry i couldn't resist.:))

:))

[HisServant]

So you would have not listened to Moses and the other judges of Israel and told Jehovah He was wrong to call them gods?

Again it is your interpretation. They are not gods. God did not call them such to denote they have any sort of diviness. Lack of understanding on your part. When a mom calls her child pumpkin does it mean that child is literally a pumpkin?

[HisServant]

I showed where thomas called Jesus lord and god it still did not imply he was the Almighty according to the greek.

It didn't imply Jehovah or the Almighty at all.

It showed his authority.

I don't call Jesus The Almighty either. He is still God.

[DRS]

Again it is your interpretation. They are not gods. God did not call them such to denote they have any sort of diviness. Lack of understanding on your part. When a mom calls her child pumpkin does it mean that child is literally a pumpkin?

If they can be called gods then so can Jesus.

[HisServant]

Would not the firstborn of all represent authority?

We know he has authority even from his birth as a man.

Jesus does not get His authority from being created. As Logos He always existed and thus is God and thus has all authority. As Jesus, who is now flesh and subject to what we are, God grants Him all authority on earth. Hence satan tries to do to Jesus what he did to Adam. So being Firstborn of all creation shows his position of authority all things are subject to Him. It does not mean or denote that He was created.

[HisServant]

In my house no means no and yes they understand that they don't even question it.

But sometimes i explain why.

So if they don't understand does that mean they don't have to follow? Does that mean their relationship with you should be different? Does that change who you are? Or does it mean you trust me as your father even when you do not understand? Understanding my friend is nice but it is not a prerequisite for obedience and trust.

[HisServant]

Genesis 1:27 in Hebrew says:

Vayivra Elohim et ha'adam b'tzalmo b'tzelem elohim bara oto zachar un'keiva bara otam.

God created man in His image. In the image of God, He created him; male and female He created them.

The word Vayivra is singular for "he created." Therefore, with a singular verb, it is obvious that God alone did the creating. Otherwise, the Hebrew would have a plural verb for creating.

I agree with this 100%. Man is created in God's image only. Angels have no part in this. God did not ask for their advice or counsel. All they did was witness His works. So who is "us" in Let us make man in our image?

[DRS]

I don't call Jesus The Almighty either. He is still God.

Only the Almighty is without beginning.

[Tucson Jim]

Why would Christ call satan a god if he wasn't a god?

Satan is a false god, like all the other false gods. There is only one true God. I thought you knew that.

[DRS]

Satan is a false god, like all the other false gods. There is only one true God. I thought you knew that.

Satan is a god without the means to win, when Jehovah made Moses god to pharoah, if pharoah had listened he would had lived.

[Angryamerican]

You know this is why you start with the OT and why God had the OT written for us to learn, and understand.

Try studying the OT then move to the NT, then you understand it a whole lot easier, and are not asking what when verses like the one I quoted are posted.

It does seem many here give the OT no credit until it supports one of their views.

It's like anything you start in the OT and move on to the next chapter it does seem to be much clearer when you understand the OT first.

We know God's word can not contradict itself. But it is clear if you start at the end of the book you will not understand what happened to get it to this point.

That could help in the understanding as to why there is so many different religions that are not in unity with each other like Jesus wanted from his followers.

[Tucson Jim]

So you would have not listened to Moses and the other judges of Israel and told Jehovah He was wrong to call them gods?

If they are gods, it can only be in the sense of false gods, since there is only one God. All other so-called "gods" are false.

Thomas was calling Jesus his Lord and his God. It's crystal clear to most people what that means.

[HisServant]

God spoke to the angels for counsel. But when it came to the creating, God did it all by Himself.

But there is nothing to support this. It is pure speculation and guessing.

[Angryamerican]

What verse supports this? As I see it They created together. AS I see it Jesus willingly did things. AS I see it all authority was given to Him when He became flesh and subjected Himself to The Father.

So Jesus is a god but notice he wasn't called the Almighty God that is reserved for Jehovah alone. And Jesus is all those things to us.

Isa 9:6 For to us a child is born, to us a son is given; and the government shall be upon his shoulder, and his name shall be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

Jesus even wnen he was a man he still had authority


Mat 3:11 "I baptize you with water for repentance, but he who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.

[Angryamerican]

I don't call Jesus The Almighty either. He is still God.


Why did Jesus have to be proven worthy if he was God we know God was worthy and didn't have to prove he was worthy?

Rev 5:9 And they sang a new song, saying, "Worthy are you to take the scroll and to open its seals, for you were slain, and by your blood you ransomed people for God from every tribe and language and people and nation,

Rev 5:12 saying with a loud voice, "Worthy is the Lamb who was slain, to receive power and wealth and wisdom and might and honor and glory and blessing!"

[Angryamerican]

So if they don't understand does that mean they don't have to follow? Does that mean their relationship with you should be different? Does that change who you are? Or does it mean you trust me as your father even when you do not understand? Understanding my friend is nice but it is not a prerequisite for obedience and trust.

My children know and understand me pretty well and i forgive them when they make mistakes but they forgive me when i make mistakes as well.

But yeah they understand both parents very well.

[HisServant]

If they can be called gods then so can Jesus.

Difference is Jesus is God. Not a god.
Bible says there is no god but Jehovah. There is none besides Him. I don't know how to explain it any simpler than that DRS. You keep coming up with gods. And we keep telling you there is none. It is used as an expression or as a comparative statement. You can call a cat a dog if you want. It is still a cat.

[Angryamerican]

Satan is a false god, like all the other false gods. There is only one true God. I thought you knew that.

Well Jesus is a god but not a false god is he?

[HisServant]

Only the Almighty is without beginning.

Try reading John 1:1. and revelation.

[DRS]

If they are gods, it can only be in the sense of false gods, since there is only one God. All other so-called "gods" are false.

Thomas was calling Jesus his Lord and his God. It's crystal clear to most people what that means.

Does Jehovah give His spirit to those who are "false gods"

See all those mentioned as Gods had Jehovah's spirit or holy spirit on them as were acting as Jehovah's representatives, calling them god was was recognizing from whence their authority to act comes from.

[DRS]

Try reading John 1:1. and revelation.

Jesus who was with God in the beginning not before the beginning. Why because Jesus is the beginning.

We can say this because Revelation says


14*“And to the angel of the congregation in La·o·di·ce′a write: These are the things that the Amen says, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation by God

[HisServant]

Satan is a god without the means to win, when Jehovah made Moses god to pharoah, if pharoah had listened he would had lived.
Again english is a diffiecult language. Saying I will make you like god to pharoah does not mean Moses was literally transformed into a god. It is making a comparison a contrasting statement. Like when you say that is as bright as the sun.

[Angryamerican]

Satan is a false god, like all the other false gods. There is only one true God. I thought you knew that.

Here Jesus is called a Mighty God but not the Almighty God why? if he is God.

(ESV) For to us a child is born, to us a son is given; and the government shall be upon his shoulder, and his name shall be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

(JPS) (9:5) For a child is born unto us, a son is given unto us; and the government is upon his shoulder; and his name is called Pele- joez-el-gibbor-Abi-ad-sar-shalom;

(KJV) For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

(KJV+) For3588 unto us a child3206 is born,3205 unto us a son1121 is given:5414 and the government4951 shall be upon5921 his shoulder:7926 and his name8034 shall be1961 called7121 Wonderful,6382 Counselor,3289 The mighty1368 God,410 The everlasting5703 Father,1 The Prince8269 of Peace.7965

(MKJV) For to us a Child is born, to us a Son is given; and the government shall be on His shoulder; and His name shall be called Wonderful, Counselor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace

[HisServant]

It does seem many here give the OT no credit until it supports one of their views.

It's like anything you start in the OT and move on to the next chapter it does seem to be much clearer when you understand the OT first.

We know God's word can not contradict itself. But it is clear if you start at the end of the book you will not understand what happened to get it to this point.

That could help in the understanding as to why there is so many different religions that are not in unity with each other like Jesus wanted from his followers.

Put your money where your mouth is AA. Lets go to Genesis. Then we will see who understands and who spins.

[DRS]

Difference is Jesus is God. Not a god.
Bible says there is no god but Jehovah. There is none besides Him. I don't know how to explain it any simpler than that DRS. You keep coming up with gods. And we keep telling you there is none. It is used as an expression or as a comparative statement. You can call a cat a dog if you want. It is still a cat.

You know what the problem is, you do not bother making a study of the usuage, instead you defame represenatatives of Jehovah. And why do you have to do this, to prove a doctrine of men rooted in greek philosophy.

Your calling them false gods is not different then those who insist Jesus is not the Messiah.

Just because someone does not fit your preconcieved notions, or what you hope for you will reject them in a vain search for something that fulfills your wants.

[DRS]

Again english is a diffiecult language. Saying I will make you like god to pharoah does not mean Moses was literally transformed into a god. It is making a comparison a contrasting statement. Like when you say that is as bright as the sun.

He gave Moses power and wuthority just as he did with Jesus.

[HisServant]

So Jesus is a god but notice he wasn't called the Almighty God that is reserved for Jehovah alone. And Jesus is all those things to us.

Isa 9:6 For to us a child is born, to us a son is given; and the government shall be upon his shoulder, and his name shall be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

Jesus even wnen he was a man he still had authority


Mat 3:11 "I baptize you with water for repentance, but he who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.

So you have gone from Baptist to Judiasm now to JW.
Jesus is not "a god". He is God. There is not such thing as gods. There is only ONE God. Besides Him there is no other.

[Angryamerican]

Put your money where your mouth is AA. Lets go to Genesis. Then we will see who understands and who spins.

I think betting is unethical don't you?

We have already done that which was pointed out who the us was don't you remember?

[DRS]

It does seem many here give the OT no credit until it supports one of their views.

It's like anything you start in the OT and move on to the next chapter it does seem to be much clearer when you understand the OT first.

We know God's word can not contradict itself. But it is clear if you start at the end of the book you will not understand what happened to get it to this point.

That could help in the understanding as to why there is so many different religions that are not in unity with each other like Jesus wanted from his followers.

Yep and the more you read cover to cover, the more you take from it.

[DRS]

So you have gone from Baptist to Judiasm now to JW.
Jesus is not "a god". He is God. There is not such thing as gods. There is only ONE God. Besides Him there is no other.

And yet in prophecy Jesus is made lower than the god like ones.

[HisServant]

Why did Jesus have to be proven worthy if he was God we know God was worthy and didn't have to prove he was worthy?

Rev 5:9 And they sang a new song, saying, "Worthy are you to take the scroll and to open its seals, for you were slain, and by your blood you ransomed people for God from every tribe and language and people and nation,

Rev 5:12 saying with a loud voice, "Worthy is the Lamb who was slain, to receive power and wealth and wisdom and might and honor and glory and blessing!"

English is a difficult language for some. Can you show me the statement in these verses that say Jesus had to be proven worthy. Please don't spin either show it or say I can't I misspoke. I have read these verses and don't see what you see.

[HisServant]

My children know and understand me pretty well and i forgive them when they make mistakes but they forgive me when i make mistakes as well.

But yeah they understand both parents very well.

You do realize you did not answer any of the points. All you did was give an answer.
Bottom line they don't have to understand to obey. They don't have to understand to trust. They just need to know I am your father. Same with God. Quit trying to understand what you do not and just trust Him when He says things. If you believe the Bible is the Word of God then you must accept what it says. If Genesis says God created and NT says Jesus created then Jesus is God.

[Angryamerican]

You know what the problem is, you do not bother making a study of the usuage, instead you defame represenatatives of Jehovah. And why do you have to do this, to prove a doctrine of men rooted in greek philosophy.

Your calling them false gods is not different then those who insist Jesus is not the Messiah.

Just because someone does not fit your preconcieved notions, or what you hope for you will reject them in a vain search for something that fulfills your wants.

That is exactly the problem. They hold on to a view that contradicts other scripture and they have no answer for so they turn to terms that don't appear in scripture.

[HisServant]

Well Jesus is a god but not a false god is he?

Jesus is God. He is not "a god" that is false theology.

[HisServant]

Does Jehovah give His spirit to those who are "false gods"

See all those mentioned as Gods had Jehovah's spirit or holy spirit on them as were acting as Jehovah's representatives, calling them god was was recognizing from whence their authority to act comes from.

Twaddle, twaddle twaddle..

[Angryamerican]

English is a difficult language for some. Can you show me the statement in these verses that say Jesus had to be proven worthy. Please don't spin either show it or say I can't I misspoke. I have read these verses and don't see what you see.


What did Jesus just accomplish?Does this show that Jesus had to conquer or over come to be worthy?

Rev 5:1 Then I saw in the right hand of him who was seated on the throne a scroll written within and on the back, sealed with seven seals.
Rev 5:2 And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, "Who is worthy to open the scroll and break its seals?"
Rev 5:3 And no one in heaven or on earth or under the earth was able to open the scroll or to look into it,
Rev 5:4 and I began to weep loudly because no one was found worthy to open the scroll or to look into it.
Rev 5:5 And one of the elders said to me, "Weep no more; behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has conquered, so that he can open the scroll and its seven seals."
Rev 5:6 And between the throne and the four living creatures and among the elders I saw a Lamb standing, as though it had been slain, with seven horns and with seven eyes, which are the seven spirits of God sent out into all the earth.
Rev 5:7 And he went and took the scroll from the right hand of him who was seated on the throne.

[Angryamerican]

Jesus is God. He is not "a god" that is false theology.

Well i've shown where Jesus is called a mighty God but i can't seem to find where he is called God Almighty.

Can you point out where Jesus is referred to as God Almighty?

[Tucson Jim]

Genesis 1:27 in Hebrew says:

Vayivra Elohim et ha'adam b'tzalmo b'tzelem elohim bara oto zachar un'keiva bara otam.

God created man in His image. In the image of God, He created him; male and female He created them.

The word Vayivra is singular for "he created." Therefore, with a singular verb, it is obvious that God alone did the creating. Otherwise, the Hebrew would have a plural verb for creating.

Is it possible the rules of grammar fail to include the possibility of a Triune Being since there is no example of one of earth?

He is both singular and plural.

[Tucson Jim]

A Jewish king is a Jewish king, and we have rules about that kind of thing, you know.

And if you choose to believe in a Jew who didn't even know to follow the Rabbis, that is between you and your own conscience.

Your analysis would be correct if this were just any Jew. But we don't believe He was just anyone, as you know.

His identity changes things just a bit for us . . .

[HisServant]

Jesus who was with God in the beginning not before the beginning. Why because Jesus is the beginning.

We can say this because Revelation says


14*“And to the angel of the congregation in La·o·di·ce′a write: These are the things that the Amen says, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation by God

Wrong again. More JW philosopy. Not biblical theology.


NIV says the Ruler of God's creation not the beginning of the creation. You are under the false impression Jesus is created. Once you correct that you will have a better understanding of scripture.

[Tucson Jim]

If they can be called gods then so can Jesus.

No, they are false gods. Jesus is the true God.

[HisServant]

Here Jesus is called a Mighty God but not the Almighty God why? if he is God.

(ESV) For to us a child is born, to us a son is given; and the government shall be upon his shoulder, and his name shall be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

(JPS) (9:5) For a child is born unto us, a son is given unto us; and the government is upon his shoulder; and his name is called Pele- joez-el-gibbor-Abi-ad-sar-shalom;

(KJV) For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

(KJV+) For3588 unto us a child3206 is born,3205 unto us a son1121 is given:5414 and the government4951 shall be upon5921 his shoulder:7926 and his name8034 shall be1961 called7121 Wonderful,6382 Counselor,3289 The mighty1368 God,410 The everlasting5703 Father,1 The Prince8269 of Peace.7965

(MKJV) For to us a Child is born, to us a Son is given; and the government shall be on His shoulder; and His name shall be called Wonderful, Counselor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace

Skipped right over everlasting Father I see.

[Angryamerican]

Twaddle, twaddle twaddle..


In the book of Revelation we get a vision of the throne of God and who was seated on it and the lamb walking up and taking the scroll out of the Almighty's hand.

Does that agree with the trinity doctrine?

[Tucson Jim]

So Jesus is a god

No, He is THE God according to Trinitarian belief.

[HisServant]

You know what the problem is, you do not bother making a study of the usuage, instead you defame represenatatives of Jehovah. And why do you have to do this, to prove a doctrine of men rooted in greek philosophy.

Your calling them false gods is not different then those who insist Jesus is not the Messiah.

Just because someone does not fit your preconcieved notions, or what you hope for you will reject them in a vain search for something that fulfills your wants.

Yeah I don't study OK. Yeah I have preconcieved notions (Mr. I see angels everywhere) I defame representatives yeah ok...

Learn english DRS. Saying someone is like a god is not calling them a god.
There is only ONE God thus no such things as god, a god or gods. Even Paul address this when talking about foods being offered to idols being nonsense.

[Tucson Jim]

Well Jesus is a god but not a false god is he?

He is God. Period.

[HisServant]

He gave Moses power and wuthority just as he did with Jesus.

You did not answer the point. He did not make Moses "a god". It was a figure of speech. Jesus however is God. Never used as a figure of speech.

[Angryamerican]

Skipped right over everlasting Father I see.

If Jesus was involved in the creating would he not also be able to have that title as well?

[HisServant]

I think betting is unethical don't you?

We have already done that which was pointed out who the us was don't you remember?

You know this is hilarious. when I posted I knew someone would read it and suggest I was trying to bet or gamble or make this a monetary comment. Thus showing if you can't understand the point of this simple statement. That it is a form of speech how can you understand God's Word?

You ran from the discussion and proved nothing. The "us" as I was showing you was God and The Spirit of God. But you would not comment the ran from the discussion. You allowed DRS to take over and side step the issue. What has been shown is thus. God was not speaking to Angels. Angels are created beings but they are not in God's image. Whoever God was speaking to was the same image as God. And man was made in that very image and likeness. The only beings mentioned in the verse is God and the Spirit of God. So that must be the "us" there is no other explaination.

[Angryamerican]

In the book of Revelation we get a vision of the throne of God and who was seated on it and the lamb walking up and taking the scroll out of the Almighty's hand.

Does that agree with the trinity doctrine?

[HisServant]

Yep and the more you read cover to cover, the more you take from it.

And you certainly have taken a lot from it. :))

[HisServant]

And yet in prophecy Jesus is made lower than the god like ones.

Have no clue what you are talking about. :confused:

[Tucson Jim]

Does Jehovah give His spirit to those who are "false gods"

See all those mentioned as Gods had Jehovah's spirit or holy spirit on them as were acting as Jehovah's representatives, calling them god was was recognizing from whence their authority to act comes from.

When making assertions so far out of line with the beliefs or ordinary Christians, I would appreciate it if you would provide clearer explanations of what you are talking about - who, when, where, what verses are you referring to?

To me there is God, then there are other "gods" that people worship, but these are all false gods. Idols of wood or stone cannot help you. Zeus doesn't save. Worshiping Paris Hilton will get you nowhere.

Please explain what you are talking about.

[Angryamerican]

You know this is hilarious. when I posted I knew someone would read it and suggest I was trying to bet or gamble or make this a monetary comment. Thus showing if you can't understand the point of this simple statement. That it is a form of speech how can you understand God's Word?

You ran from the discussion and proved nothing. The "us" as I was showing you was God and The Spirit of God. But you would not comment the ran from the discussion. You allowed DRS to take over and side step the issue. What has been shown is thus. God was not speaking to Angels. Angels are created beings but they are not in God's image. Whoever God was speaking to was the same image as God. And man was made in that very image and likeness. The only beings mentioned in the verse is God and the Spirit of God. So that must be the "us" there is no other explaination.

No it became like beating a dead horse. You can either accept what God's word say's or you don't but if you add your own opinion to scripture and it changes the meaning of the word than it is only your opinion.

[HisServant]

That is exactly the problem. They hold on to a view that contradicts other scripture and they have no answer for so they turn to terms that don't appear in scripture.

You have a knack for making statements you cannot prove. I challange you to back up this statement. So far you are batting 0. No comments made by you has been supported by anything. But you continue to make comments as such. Unbelievable. Please provide proof instead of snide remarks.

[Tucson Jim]

Here Jesus is called a Mighty God but not the Almighty God why? if he is God.


Here God is called "mighty God", but not the almighty. Why?

"But from now on, the Son of Man will be seated at the right hand of the mighty God."" Luke 22:69

A remnant will return, a remnant of Jacob will return to the Mighty God. Isa 10:21

[HisServant]

What did Jesus just accomplish?Does this show that Jesus had to conquer or over come to be worthy?

Rev 5:1 Then I saw in the right hand of him who was seated on the throne a scroll written within and on the back, sealed with seven seals.
Rev 5:2 And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, "Who is worthy to open the scroll and break its seals?"
Rev 5:3 And no one in heaven or on earth or under the earth was able to open the scroll or to look into it,
Rev 5:4 and I began to weep loudly because no one was found worthy to open the scroll or to look into it.
Rev 5:5 And one of the elders said to me, "Weep no more; behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has conquered, so that he can open the scroll and its seven seals."
Rev 5:6 And between the throne and the four living creatures and among the elders I saw a Lamb standing, as though it had been slain, with seven horns and with seven eyes, which are the seven spirits of God sent out into all the earth.
Rev 5:7 And he went and took the scroll from the right hand of him who was seated on the throne.

FIrst notice that the first set of verse you posted said no such thing. Instead of saying you misspoke you now supply finally something substantial.

So what is your point here? Jesus is shown to be worthy by what He did. OK what is your point? He came to do what no one else could. As our Kinsman Redeemer He freed us from the slavery of sin, He now has back the dominion over the land we lost, He has restored our relationship to God again thus our family name in God continues, and He will one day be the blood avenger. He has proven all these things by doing and accomplishing what He set out to do. What is the problem?

[Tucson Jim]

That is exactly the problem. They hold on to a view that contradicts other scripture and they have no answer for so they turn to terms that don't appear in scripture.

Just keep telling yourself that . . .

[HisServant]

Well i've shown where Jesus is called a mighty God but i can't seem to find where he is called God Almighty.

Can you point out where Jesus is referred to as God Almighty?

Nope. Because He is Not God Almighty. He however is God and is one with the Father. Which has been pointed out to you many many many many times.

[Angryamerican]

Have no clue what you are talking about. :confused:

What does this mean?

Psa 82:6 I said: Ye are godlike beings, and all of you sons of the Most High.

Zec 12:8 In that day shall the LORD defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and he that stumbleth among them at that day shall be as David; and the house of David shall be as a godlike being, as the angel of the LORD before them.

[HisServant]

In the book of Revelation we get a vision of the throne of God and who was seated on it and the lamb walking up and taking the scroll out of the Almighty's hand.

Does that agree with the trinity doctrine?

Yes. It does not contradict what we believe. BTW Do you think this was a vision or do you think there is an actual lamb that constantly walks around heaven taking the scroll from the Almighty's Hand?

[Angryamerican]

Nope. Because He is Not God Almighty. He however is God and is one with the Father. Which has been pointed out to you many many many many times.

It is clear the oneness is in unity as has be shown.

[HisServant]

If Jesus was involved in the creating would he not also be able to have that title as well?

Let me answer it this way since you cannot wrap your mind around the fact that God Almighty is God Almighty and Jesus is God The Son. How many Presidents do we have?

[Angryamerican]

Yes. It does not contradict what we believe. BTW Do you think this was a vision or do you think there is an actual lamb that constantly walks around heaven taking the scroll from the Almighty's Hand?

I think that is a vision that took place in heaven don't you?

[HisServant]

When making assertions so far out of line with the beliefs or ordinary Christians, I would appreciate it if you would provide clearer explanations of what you are talking about - who, when, where, what verses are you referring to?

To me there is God, then there are other "gods" that people worship, but these are all false gods. Idols of wood or stone cannot help you. Zeus doesn't save. Worshiping Paris Hilton will get you nowhere.

Please explain what you are talking about.

Is this a good place to say that is not what Paris Hilton's boyfriends say or is that in bad taste? :)) :))

[Angryamerican]

Let me answer it this way since you cannot wrap your mind around the fact that God Almighty is God Almighty and Jesus is God The Son. How many Presidents do we have?

We have two, president and vice president which is a perfect example of God and Christ.

[HisServant]

No it became like beating a dead horse. You can either accept what God's word say's or you don't but if you add your own opinion to scripture and it changes the meaning of the word than it is only your opinion.

Sir how in the world can you make such a statement then insist God was speaking to Angels when He said let us make man? That is nonsense and foolishness. You are a walking contradiction AA. You say don't add. I say God said let us. You say He must be speaking with Angels. you don't see how you are adding? You don't see how you are making things up that are not there? I say Scipture mentions specifically God and The Holy Spirit of God. I then say Scripture says God said let us' I then deduce that lack of anyone else being mentioned must mean that the us is God and the Spirit of God. You tell me I am making it up when all I do is use the scripture. :doh:

[Angryamerican]

Let me answer it this way since you cannot wrap your mind around the fact that God Almighty is God Almighty and Jesus is God The Son. How many Presidents do we have?


Who is the son of man?

Why is this so hard for trinitarians to understand?


(ASV) God is not a man, that he should lie, Neither the son of man, that he should repent: Hath he said, and will he not do it? Or hath he spoken, and will he not make it good?

(ESV) God is not man, that he should lie, or a son of man, that he should change his mind. Has he said, and will he not do it? Or has he spoken, and will he not fulfill it?

(JPS) God is not a man, that He should lie; neither the son of man, that He should repent: when He hath said, will He not do it? or when He hath spoken, will He not make it good?

(KJV) God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?

(KJV+) God410 is not3808 a man,376 that he should lie;3576 neither the son1121 of man,120 that he should repent:5162 hath he1931 said,559 and shall he not3808 do6213 it? or hath he spoken,1696 and shall he not3808 make it good?6965

(MKJV) God is not a man that He should lie, neither the son of man that He should repent. Has He said, and shall He not do it? Or has He spoken, and shall He not make it good?

[HisServant]

What does this mean?

Psa 82:6 I said: Ye are godlike beings, and all of you sons of the Most High.

Zec 12:8 In that day shall the LORD defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and he that stumbleth among them at that day shall be as David; and the house of David shall be as a godlike being, as the angel of the LORD before them.

Psalm is a poetic book. He is making a point. Not saying they are gods.

Zec. same thing He is not saying they are gods. He is making a comparitive statement. Much like when someone says hey try this. The person then says what does it taste like. Anwer: taste like chicken. It is a comparison. Shall be like, shall be as, Not Shall be. Not will be, not are.

[Angryamerican]

Sir how in the world can you make such a statement then insist God was speaking to Angels when He said let us make man? That is nonsense and foolishness. You are a walking contradiction AA. You say don't add. I say God said let us. You say He must be speaking with Angels. you don't see how you are adding? You don't see how you are making things up that are not there? I say Scipture mentions specifically God and The Holy Spirit of God. I then say Scripture says God said let us' I then deduce that lack of anyone else being mentioned must mean that the us is God and the Spirit of God. You tell me I am making it up when all I do is use the scripture. :doh:

Was Jesus present at the beginning of creation?

Was the angels present at the beginning of creation?

[HisServant]

It is clear the oneness is in unity as has be shown.

What has been shown is that you will accept any explaination except the truth as long as you don't have to.

[HisServant]

I think that is a vision that took place in heaven don't you?

Not what I asked you.

[HisServant]

We have two, president and vice president which is a perfect example of God and Christ.

So I can call cheney President Cheney?
and I can call Bush Vice President Bush?

[Angryamerican]

Psalm is a poetic book. He is making a point. Not saying they are gods.

Zec. same thing He is not saying they are gods. He is making a comparitive statement. Much like when someone says hey try this. The person then says what does it taste like. Anwer: taste like chicken. It is a comparison. Shall be like, shall be as, Not Shall be. Not will be, not are.

You totally ignored that some are godlike.

And was he not saying that the Angel of the lord is in fact godlike?

[Angryamerican]

Psalm is a poetic book. He is making a point. Not saying they are gods.

Zec. same thing He is not saying they are gods. He is making a comparitive statement. Much like when someone says hey try this. The person then says what does it taste like. Anwer: taste like chicken. It is a comparison. Shall be like, shall be as, Not Shall be. Not will be, not are.


Now who is spinning?

[Poisonshady313]

So I can call cheney President Cheney?
and I can call Bush Vice President Bush?

Pretty sure the answer is obvious from AA's statement. No, you can't call Cheney "President Cheney"... just like you can't call Jesus "God".

[HisServant]

Who is the son of man?

Why is this so hard for trinitarians to understand?


(ASV) God is not a man, that he should lie, Neither the son of man, that he should repent: Hath he said, and will he not do it? Or hath he spoken, and will he not make it good?

(ESV) God is not man, that he should lie, or a son of man, that he should change his mind. Has he said, and will he not do it? Or has he spoken, and will he not fulfill it?

(JPS) God is not a man, that He should lie; neither the son of man, that He should repent: when He hath said, will He not do it? or when He hath spoken, will He not make it good?

(KJV) God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?

(KJV+) God410 is not3808 a man,376 that he should lie;3576 neither the son1121 of man,120 that he should repent:5162 hath he1931 said,559 and shall he not3808 do6213 it? or hath he spoken,1696 and shall he not3808 make it good?6965

(MKJV) God is not a man that He should lie, neither the son of man that He should repent. Has He said, and shall He not do it? Or has He spoken, and shall He not make it good?

These verses have nothing to do with your question.. Perhaps it is you that do not understand. I am beginning to see you don't want too understand. That you refuse too. It has nothing to do with the concept and everything to do with pride.

[HisServant]

Was Jesus present at the beginning of creation?

Was the angels present at the beginning of creation?

Jesus was present He did the creating.
Angels were present they watched and rejoiced. They had no part in creation. Nor was man made in their image.

[HisServant]

You totally ignored that some are godlike.

And was he not saying that the Angel of the lord is in fact godlike?

AA would you rather be rich or richlike?

[HisServant]

Now who is spinning?

Facts not spin. Psalm is a poetic book. Yes or no?
Godlike is not being God, yes or no?

[HisServant]

Pretty sure the answer is obvious from AA's statement. No, you can't call Cheney "President Cheney"... just like you can't call Jesus "God".

Incorrect. You can call Jesus God. You don't call Him Almighty God.
You call Cheney. VP because that is his title. You call Bush President. That is His title. Son Of God - Title God Almighty - Title.

[Poisonshady313]

Incorrect. You can call Jesus God. You don't call Him Almighty God.
You call Cheney. VP because that is his title. You call Bush President. That is His title. Son Of God - Title God Almighty - Title.

So now there's a theological hierarchy? just how many gods are there?

[Angryamerican]

So I can call cheney President Cheney?
and I can call Bush Vice President Bush?


No you can't and you can't call Jesus God Almighty either.

[Angryamerican]

AA would you rather be rich or richlike?


Neither because according to Christ it is harder to attain everlasting life.

[Poisonshady313]

Neither because according to Christ it is harder to attain everlasting life.

That's just something poor people say.

[Tucson Jim]

Is this a good place to say that is not what Paris Hilton's boyfriends say or is that in bad taste? :)) :))

I've always said this thread needs more humor! :))

[Angryamerican]

Facts not spin. Psalm is a poetic book. Yes or no?
Godlike is not being God, yes or no?

does it being a poetic book mean that you cant take any of it literal? Is it not still God's word?

(ASV) And the king said unto her, Be not afraid: for what seest thou? And the woman said unto Saul, I see a god coming up out of the earth.

(ESV) The king said to her, "Do not be afraid. What do you see?" And the woman said to Saul, "I see a god coming up out of the earth."

(JPS) And the king said unto her: 'Be not afraid; for what seest thou?' And the woman said unto Saul: 'I see a godlike being coming up out of the earth.'

(KJV) And the king said unto her, Be not afraid: for what sawest thou? And the woman said unto Saul, I saw gods ascending out of the earth.

(KJV+) And the king4428 said559 unto her, Be not408 afraid:3372 for3588 what4100 sawest7200 thou? And the woman802 said559 unto413 Saul,7586 I saw7200 gods430 ascending5927 out of4480 the earth.776

(MKJV) And the king said to her, Do not be afraid. For what did you see? And the woman said to Saul, I saw gods coming up out of the earth

One version says godlike beings and one says gods.

[Angryamerican]

That's just something poor people say.

You are too funny.:))

[Angryamerican]

Jesus was present He did the creating.
Angels were present they watched and rejoiced. They had no part in creation. Nor was man made in their image.

What gods?

Psa 95:3 For the LORD is a great God, and a great King above all gods.

[Angryamerican]

Jesus was present He did the creating.
Angels were present they watched and rejoiced. They had no part in creation. Nor was man made in their image.

What does this mean?

(ASV) He answered and said, Lo, I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire, and they have no hurt; and the aspect of the fourth is like a son of the gods.

(ESV) He answered and said, "But I see four men unbound, walking in the midst of the fire, and they are not hurt; and the appearance of the fourth is like a son of the gods."

(JPS) He answered and said: 'Lo, I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire, and they have no hurt; and the appearance of the fourth is like a son of the gods.'

(KJV) He answered and said, Lo, I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire, and they have no hurt; and the form of the fourth is like the Son of God.

(KJV+) He answered6032 and said,560 Lo,1888 I576 see2370 four703 men1400 loose,8271 walking1981 in the midst1459 of the fire,5135 and they have383 no3809 hurt;2257 and the form7299 of1768 the fourth7244 is like1821 the Son1247 of God.426

(MKJV) He answered and said, Behold! I see four men loose, walking in the middle of the fire, and there is no harm among them. And the form of the fourth is like a son of the gods.

[Tucson Jim]

What gods?

Psa 95:3 For the LORD is a great God, and a great King above all gods.

Right - above all false gods. You should worship the Lord and serve Him alone. Not these false objects of worship.

[Harmonious]

See this is where you do kind of miss out on some understandings, Satan is not doing the will of God. The Holocaust happened, because of the influence of Satan on the world around us. Satan delights in misery and causing humans to not do the will of God. He enjoys it when people blame Jehovah for their suffering.God doesn't get all the blame. People were exercising their free will. But God allowed it to happen.

Satan is nothing but an automaton doing what God tells him to do.

[Harmonious]

Be accpeted by men has no bearing on wether I choose to accpet one as being from God. Many prophets were not liked by the leaders in their day.Jewish law says that a king has to be accepted by the Jews. That means accepted by man.

See, Jesus didn't seem to like the way Jewish law worked. But that isn't really my problem. You're the one who believes in this Jew who couldn't even stick to Jewish law.

[Jacob_Rising]

See this is where you do kind of miss out on some understandings, Satan is not doing the will of God. The Holocaust happened, because of the influence of Satan on the world around us. Satan delights in misery and causing humans to not do the will of God. He enjoys it when people blame Jehovah for their suffering.Jehova was the cause of their suffering. The world was always to kill them. It's the job of every nation, but this isn't Satan it's our job.

God says over and over that he will bring all nations against them.

WHY?

Because he wants to show all mankind that he chose a people and they would be hunted down and scattered to all the nations.

He wanted to show them also come back and when they all come back, it's the job of the world to come and try and kill them.

That's just a fact, God foretold that he would indeed bring all nations to fight against Israel, and there is a good reason for this.

Because he will come and he will bring them fame and kill everyone who wanted them dead and then the world will know that the Lord has planned it, set it up and executed it when the Law goes forth from Jerusalem forever.

Vengence is his and it's coming.

He will choose Jerusalem again, and all his people will live in safety.

[Harmonious]

I agree with this 100%. Man is created in God's image only. Angels have no part in this. So far we agree.

God did not ask for their advice or counsel. All they did was witness His works. So who is "us" in Let us make man in our image?
But here is where it doesn't work. God DID ask for their advice and counsel.

In Beresheet Rabba, there is a fascinating story that details angels discussing back and forth whether the world would be a better place with or without man. Some angels were on the side of God creating man, and some angels were on the side of God NOT creating man.

When the debate was over, they came to the conclusion that creation would be better off without man. God thanked them for their efforts and their opinions, but He had His own plan. And He created Adam and Eve.

[Harmonious]

But there is nothing to support this. It is pure speculation and guessing.Not really. I gave you a post to support my position already.

[tulsatech]

So far we agree.


But here is where it doesn't work. God DID ask for their advice and counsel.

In Beresheet Rabba, there is a fascinating story that details angels discussing back and forth whether the world would be a better place with or without man. Some angels were on the side of God creating man, and some angels were on the side of God NOT creating man.

When the debate was over, they came to the conclusion that creation would be better off without man. God thanked them for their efforts and their opinions, but He had His own plan. And He created Adam and Eve.Do angels have "free will" according to Judaism?

[Harmonious]

Do angels have "free will" according to Judaism?No.

They do have the ability to think and ask questions, but in the end, they will do whatever God tells them to do.

[Harmonious]

Well Jesus is a god but not a false god is he?

I would say he is. :whistle:

[Harmonious]

Is it possible the rules of grammar fail to include the possibility of a Triune Being since there is no example of one of earth?

He is both singular and plural.No. God is one. Hebrew grammar functioned quite perfectly before the creation of Christianity, thank you very much.

God's name is often written in plural because One God did the work that other people thought required multiple gods.

But God is one, not a trinity, not a trio, not a triplicate, not three-in-one. Just One. No one else.

[tulsatech]

No.

They do have the ability to think and ask questions, but in the end, they will do whatever God tells them to do.So when you relayed the following story: In Beresheet Rabba, there is a fascinating story that details angels discussing back and forth whether the world would be a better place with or without man. Some angels were on the side of God creating man, and some angels were on the side of God NOT creating man.

When the debate was over, they came to the conclusion that creation would be better off without man. God thanked them for their efforts and their opinions, but He had His own plan. And He created Adam and Eve.I take it that it wasn't much of a 'debate' since: #1 God was going to do His will anyways and #2 God knew the outcome of the debate before it even began. Which begs the question, why bother to ask for the opinion of an angel when it doesn't really matter?

[Harmonious]

Your analysis would be correct if this were just any Jew. But we don't believe He was just anyone, as you know.

His identity changes things just a bit for us . . .Yeah. I know. It makes you confused.

But that doesn't make you a bad person.

[Harmonious]

What does this mean?

Psa 82:6 I said: Ye are godlike beings, and all of you sons of the Most High.

6. I said, "You are angelic creatures, and all of you are angels of the Most High."

You are angelic creatures Angels. When I gave you the Torah, I gave it to you on the condition that the Angel of Death should not rule over you.

7. Indeed, as man, you will die, and as one of the princes, you will fall.

Indeed, as man, you will die Indeed, as Adam, you will die since you corrupted your deeds as he did.

and as one of the princes the first [princes], who died, so will you fall. The Midrash Aggadah (Mid. Ps. 82:3) [explains]: As one of the celestial princes, for it is said (Isa. 24:21): “the Lord will visit punishment upon the host of heaven on high.”


Zec 12:8 In that day shall the LORD defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and he that stumbleth among them at that day shall be as David; and the house of David shall be as a godlike being, as the angel of the LORD before them.

8. On that day the Lord shall protect the inhabitants of Jerusalem, and the weakest of them shall be, on that day, like David. And the house of David shall be like angels, like the angel of the Lord before them.

and the weakest among them Heb. הַנִּכְשָׁל

like angels Jonathan renders: like great ones, like angels.

like the angel of the Lord before them They will prosper like the angel of the Lord before them.

[Harmonious]

Psalm is a poetic book. He is making a point. Not saying they are gods.

Zec. same thing He is not saying they are gods. He is making a comparitive statement. Much like when someone says hey try this. The person then says what does it taste like. Anwer: taste like chicken. It is a comparison. Shall be like, shall be as, Not Shall be. Not will be, not are.

It is good to agree for a change, HisServant.

[Harmonious]

So when you relayed the following story: I take it that it wasn't much of a 'debate' since: #1 God was going to do His will anyways and #2 God knew the outcome of the debate before it even began. Which begs the question, why bother to ask for the opinion of an angel when it doesn't really matter?

Let's say you have a daughter, and her favorite color is pink. This is an established fact for my scenario.

She is given a choice of which dress to wear, the blue one, the pink one, and the yellow one. Which dress will she choose?

You KNOW she is going to choose the pink one, but when you give her the choice, you make her feel important.

That is why it is important. God already had His plan, but in demonstrating that it is important to seek counsel, He asked the angels' opinion. They were split for a while. But they came out with an answer.

God had His plan in mind, but was important to ask them their opinion. I'm not sure why, but God had His reasons, if only to show us as human beings that if God Himself can take counsel, ever so much more so should people who are fallible beings take counsel even when we think we know better.

[Angryamerican]

It is good to agree for a change, HisServant.

Is it the word of God or no?

[Angryamerican]

No.

They do have the ability to think and ask questions, but in the end, they will do whatever God tells them to do.

Did satan rebel again'st God?

[Harmonious]

Did satan rebel again'st God?

No.

[Harmonious]

Is it the word of God or no?Psalms was written with Divine inspiration, but no, it is not the word of God. It is usually the word of King David, and various other composers.

Zechariah was a prophet, so his visions are from God. But the words Zechariah chose to use were Zechariah's.

Only Moses was given a direct line-by-line prophecy. Only Moses' words (and the Oral Law) is considered "the word of God." But all of the books of Tanach are holy, even if they are not specifically God's words.

[Angryamerican]

No.

They do have the ability to think and ask questions, but in the end, they will do whatever God tells them to do.

Was this not rebellion by the angels?

Gen 6:1 And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them,
Gen 6:2 that the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives, whomsoever they chose.
Gen 6:3 And the LORD said: 'My spirit shall not abide in man for ever, for that he also is flesh; therefore shall his days be a hundred and twenty years.'
Gen 6:4 The Nephilim were in the earth in those days, and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bore children to them; the same were the mighty men that were of old, the men of renown.
Gen 6:5 And the LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
Gen 6:6 And it repented the LORD that He had made man on the earth, and it grieved Him at His heart.

[Harmonious]

Was this not rebellion by the angels?

Gen 6:1 And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them,
Gen 6:2 that the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives, whomsoever they chose.
Gen 6:3 And the LORD said: 'My spirit shall not abide in man for ever, for that he also is flesh; therefore shall his days be a hundred and twenty years.'
Gen 6:4 The Nephilim were in the earth in those days, and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bore children to them; the same were the mighty men that were of old, the men of renown.
Gen 6:5 And the LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
Gen 6:6 And it repented the LORD that He had made man on the earth, and it grieved Him at His heart.
No, Angry. This happened with human nobility, not angels.

[Angryamerican]

Psalms was written with Divine inspiration, but no, it is not the word of God. It is usually the word of King David, and various other composers.

Zechariah was a prophet, so his visions are from God. But the words Zechariah chose to use were Zechariah's.

Only Moses was given a direct line-by-line prophecy. Only Moses' words (and the Oral Law) is considered "the word of God." But all of the books of Tanach are holy, even if they are not specifically God's words.

If Zechariah was a prophet and God spoke trough him would not what he writes be the words of God?

How bout this?

Zec 3:1 And he showed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the LORD, and Satan standing at his right hand to accuse him.
Zec 3:2 And the LORD said unto Satan: 'The LORD rebuke thee, O Satan, yea, the LORD that hath chosen Jerusalem rebuke thee; is not this man a brand plucked out of the fire?'

[Tucson Jim]

Yeah. I know. It makes you confused.

But that doesn't make you a bad person.

That's funny. I don't FEEL confused . . .:think:

[Harmonious]

If Zechariah was a prophet and God spoke trough him would not what he writes be the words of God?

How bout this?

Zec 3:1 And he showed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the LORD, and Satan standing at his right hand to accuse him.
Zec 3:2 And the LORD said unto Satan: 'The LORD rebuke thee, O Satan, yea, the LORD that hath chosen Jerusalem rebuke thee; is not this man a brand plucked out of the fire?'
Satan is an accusing angel. That's his job. But if God decides not to take Satan's counsel, that is God's choice.

God rebuked Satan for prosecuting a man who God decided didn't need to be prosecuted.

[Harmonious]

That's funny. I don't FEEL confused . . .:think:

:hug:

Jews are Jews, and Jesus was just a Jew. If it makes you happy to believe that he was more than that, this is your right.

[Angryamerican]

No, Angry. This happened with human nobility, not angels.


How come it doesn't say sons of nobles here?

Job 1:6

(ASV) Now it came to pass on the day when the sons of God came to present themselves before Jehovah, that Satan also came among them.

(ESV) Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan also came among them.

(JPS) Now it fell upon a day, that the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.

(KJV) Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.

(KJV+) Now there was1961 a day3117 when the sons1121 of God430 came935 to present themselves3320 before5921 the LORD,3068 and Satan7854 came935 also1571 among8432 them.

(MKJV) And a day came when the sons of God came to present themselves before Jehovah. And Satan also came among them

[Harmonious]

How come it doesn't say sons of nobles here?

(ASV) Now it came to pass on the day when the sons of God came to present themselves before Jehovah, that Satan also came among them.

(ESV) Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan also came among them.

(JPS) Now it fell upon a day, that the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.

(KJV) Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.

(KJV+) Now there was1961 a day3117 when the sons1121 of God430 came935 to present themselves3320 before5921 the LORD,3068 and Satan7854 came935 also1571 among8432 them.

(MKJV) And a day came when the sons of God came to present themselves before Jehovah. And Satan also came among them

I'm becoming impatient, because I've answered this question for you many times before.

Sometimes B'nei Elohim mean nobles, and sometimes it means angels.

The word Elohim can either mean nobles, angels, false gods, or God Himself, depending on the context.

[Angryamerican]

What verse is this?

Job 1:6

[Angryamerican]

I'm becoming impatient, because I've answered this question for you many times before.

Sometimes B'nei Elohim mean nobles, and sometimes it means angels.



Why is satan called the advesary?



Book Title Judaica Press Complete Tanach

« Previous Next »
Iyov - Chapter 1
Show Rashi's Commentary
1. There was a man in the land of Uz whose name was Job, and that man was sincere and upright, God-fearing and shunning evil.
2. Now seven sons and three daughters were born to him.
3. His livestock consisted of seven thousand sheep, three thousand camels, five hundred yoke of cattle, five hundred she- donkeys, and very much production; and the man was greater than all the children of the East.
4. Now his sons would go and make a feast in each one's house on his day, and they would send and invite their three sisters to eat and drink with them.
5. Now it would come about when the cycle of the feasting days would be over, that Job would send and summon them, and offer up burnt-offerings early in the morning burnt- offerings according to the number of all of them, for Job said, "Perhaps my sons have sinned and blasphemed God in their hearts." So would Job do all the days.
6. Now the day came about, and the angels of God came to stand beside the Lord, and the Adversary, too, came among them.

[Harmonious]

Job 1:6

Please look back and see my answer to your question.

[Angryamerican]

Satan is an accusing angel. That's his job. But if God decides not to take Satan's counsel, that is God's choice.

God rebuked Satan for prosecuting a man who God decided didn't need to be prosecuted.


But would that not be rebellious of satan to question God's authority in front of all the angels?

[Harmonious]

But would that not be rebellious of satan to question God's authority in front of all the angels?
No. Angels can ask questions. And in his role of prosecutor, Satan only did his job.

[Angryamerican]

No. Angels can ask questions. And in his role of prosecutor, Satan only did his job.


Is not lucifer satan?





Book Title Judaica Press Complete Tanach

« Previous Next »
Yeshayahu - Chapter 14
Show Rashi's Commentary
1. For the Lord shall have mercy on Jacob and again choose Israel, and He shall place them on their soil, and the strangers shall accompany them and join the House of Jacob.
2. And peoples shall take them and bring them to their place, and the House of Israel shall inherit them on the soil of the Lord, for slaves and maidservants, and they shall be captors to their captors and rule over those who dominate over them.
3. And it shall come to pass on the day the Lord allows you to rest from your sorrow and from your shuddering, and from the hard work that you were made to serve.
4. And you shall bear this parable against the king of Babylon, and you shall say, "How has the dominator ceased, has ceased the haughty one!
5. The Lord has broken the staff of the wicked, the rod of the rulers.
6. Who would smite peoples with wrath, incessant blows, ruling nations with anger, pursued without relenting.
7. 'All the land rested, became tranquil,' they opened [their mouth] in song.
8. Box trees, too, rejoiced at you, the cedars of the Lebanon; 'Since you were laid low, the cutter will not come upon us.'
9. Gehinnom from beneath quaked for you, toward your arrival; it aroused for you the giants, all the chiefs of the earth; it caused all the kings of the nations to rise from their thrones.
10. All of them shall speak up and say to you, 'Have you too become weak like us? Have you become like us?'
11. Your pride has been lowered into Gehinnom, the stirring of your psalteries. Maggots are spread under you, and worms cover you.
12. How have you fallen from heaven, Lucifer, the morning star? You have been cut down to earth, You who cast lots on nations.
13. And you said to yourself, 'To the heavens will I ascend, above God's stars will I raise my throne, and I will sit on the mount of the assembly, in the farthest end of the north.
14. I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will liken myself to the Most High.'
15. But into the nether world shall you be brought down, to the bottom of the pit.

[Warrior4God]

I am not seeing where this is going or how it came up

[Harmonious]

Why is satan called the advesary?



Book Title Judaica Press Complete Tanach

« Previous Next »
Iyov - Chapter 1
Show Rashi's Commentary
1. There was a man in the land of Uz whose name was Job, and that man was sincere and upright, God-fearing and shunning evil.
2. Now seven sons and three daughters were born to him.
3. His livestock consisted of seven thousand sheep, three thousand camels, five hundred yoke of cattle, five hundred she- donkeys, and very much production; and the man was greater than all the children of the East.
4. Now his sons would go and make a feast in each one's house on his day, and they would send and invite their three sisters to eat and drink with them.
5. Now it would come about when the cycle of the feasting days would be over, that Job would send and summon them, and offer up burnt-offerings early in the morning burnt- offerings according to the number of all of them, for Job said, "Perhaps my sons have sinned and blasphemed God in their hearts." So would Job do all the days.
6. Now the day came about, and the angels of God came to stand beside the Lord, and the Adversary, too, came among them.
Satan is called the Adversary because that is what he is, to people. If people are on the Defense, then the Prosecution is ... the Adversary.

Satan is not God's adversary, but man's adversary. And that is Satan's job.

[Angryamerican]

I am not seeing where this is going or how it came up

Do you believe satan has fallen and angels rebelled again'st God?

Thats where this is going.

[Angryamerican]

Is not lucifer satan?





Book Title Judaica Press Complete Tanach

« Previous Next »
Yeshayahu - Chapter 14
Show Rashi's Commentary
1. For the Lord shall have mercy on Jacob and again choose Israel, and He shall place them on their soil, and the strangers shall accompany them and join the House of Jacob.
2. And peoples shall take them and bring them to their place, and the House of Israel shall inherit them on the soil of the Lord, for slaves and maidservants, and they shall be captors to their captors and rule over those who dominate over them.
3. And it shall come to pass on the day the Lord allows you to rest from your sorrow and from your shuddering, and from the hard work that you were made to serve.
4. And you shall bear this parable against the king of Babylon, and you shall say, "How has the dominator ceased, has ceased the haughty one!
5. The Lord has broken the staff of the wicked, the rod of the rulers.
6. Who would smite peoples with wrath, incessant blows, ruling nations with anger, pursued without relenting.
7. 'All the land rested, became tranquil,' they opened [their mouth] in song.
8. Box trees, too, rejoiced at you, the cedars of the Lebanon; 'Since you were laid low, the cutter will not come upon us.'
9. Gehinnom from beneath quaked for you, toward your arrival; it aroused for you the giants, all the chiefs of the earth; it caused all the kings of the nations to rise from their thrones.
10. All of them shall speak up and say to you, 'Have you too become weak like us? Have you become like us?'
11. Your pride has been lowered into Gehinnom, the stirring of your psalteries. Maggots are spread under you, and worms cover you.
12. How have you fallen from heaven, Lucifer, the morning star? You have been cut down to earth, You who cast lots on nations.
13. And you said to yourself, 'To the heavens will I ascend, above God's stars will I raise my throne, and I will sit on the mount of the assembly, in the farthest end of the north.
14. I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will liken myself to the Most High.'
15. But into the nether world shall you be brought down, to the bottom of the pit.

[Harmonious]

Is not lucifer satan?





Book Title Judaica Press Complete Tanach

« Previous Next »
Yeshayahu - Chapter 14
Show Rashi's Commentary
1. For the Lord shall have mercy on Jacob and again choose Israel, and He shall place them on their soil, and the strangers shall accompany them and join the House of Jacob.
2. And peoples shall take them and bring them to their place, and the House of Israel shall inherit them on the soil of the Lord, for slaves and maidservants, and they shall be captors to their captors and rule over those who dominate over them.
3. And it shall come to pass on the day the Lord allows you to rest from your sorrow and from your shuddering, and from the hard work that you were made to serve.
4. And you shall bear this parable against the king of Babylon, and you shall say, "How has the dominator ceased, has ceased the haughty one!
5. The Lord has broken the staff of the wicked, the rod of the rulers.
6. Who would smite peoples with wrath, incessant blows, ruling nations with anger, pursued without relenting.
7. 'All the land rested, became tranquil,' they opened [their mouth] in song.
8. Box trees, too, rejoiced at you, the cedars of the Lebanon; 'Since you were laid low, the cutter will not come upon us.'
9. Gehinnom from beneath quaked for you, toward your arrival; it aroused for you the giants, all the chiefs of the earth; it caused all the kings of the nations to rise from their thrones.
10. All of them shall speak up and say to you, 'Have you too become weak like us? Have you become like us?'
11. Your pride has been lowered into Gehinnom, the stirring of your psalteries. Maggots are spread under you, and worms cover you.
12. How have you fallen from heaven, Lucifer, the morning star? You have been cut down to earth, You who cast lots on nations.13. And you said to yourself, 'To the heavens will I ascend, above God's stars will I raise my throne, and I will sit on the mount of the assembly, in the farthest end of the north.
14. I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will liken myself to the Most High.'
15. But into the nether world shall you be brought down, to the bottom of the pit.
Ah, but you see, you missed the important bit.

Verse 12 is not actually about Lucifer, or Venus. But the whole chapter is talking about Nebuchadnezzar, and how his fortune is so bright like a star. It would be devastating to see it fall, especially to the depths Nebuchadnezzar ended up plummeting to.

AS IF the morning star, often the brightest star (or planet) in the sky would fall, that would be how horrible Nebuchadnezzar's fall from great heights would be.

There is nothing here about Satan. But it was an interesting theory.

[Harmonious]

I am not seeing where this is going or how it came up
I am also puzzled. But there is nothing wrong with the questions.

[Angryamerican]

Ah, but you see, you missed the important bit.

Verse 12 is not actually about Lucifer, or Venus. But the whole chapter is talking about Nebuchadnezzar, and how his fortune is so bright like a star. It would be devastating to see it fall, especially to the depths Nebuchadnezzar ended up plummeting to.

AS IF the morning star, often the brightest star (or planet) in the sky would fall, that would be how horrible Nebuchadnezzar's fall from great heights would be.

There is nothing here about Satan. But it was an interesting theory.


Have you fallen from heaven satan isn't about satan?

[Angryamerican]

I am also puzzled. But there is nothing wrong with the questions.

Because you are saying there was no rebellion by satan and he wasn't an adversary to God.

[Harmonious]

Have you fallen from heaven satan isn't about satan?Different translations say different things. Not every translation calls the star in question Lucifer. So, no.

The Hebrew actually says:

Eich nafalta mishamayim, Heilel ben Shachar; nigda'ta la'aretz cholesh al goyim.

A direct translation is: How you have fallen from heaven, Heilel ben Shachar! You have been cut to the ground [from] ruling over nations!

The Koren Publishers' "The Jerusalem Bible" translates the verse: How art thou fallen from heaven, O bright star, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, that didst rule over the nations!

There is no Satan or Lucifer present in the Hebrew. This time, I think the Judaica Press used poetic license, because the English speaking audience would be impressed with the idea of Lucifer being cut down out of heaven.

However, the Hebrew does not support that.

[Harmonious]

Because you are saying there was no rebellion by satan and he wasn't an adversary to God.
Exactly.

[Angryamerican]

Exactly.


So in genesis the serpent was not satan?


Because God passed judgment on the serpent as well.

[Harmonious]

So in genesis the serpent was not satan?No, it wasn't.


Because God passed judgment on the serpent as well.
And since then animals don't talk or have the ability to reason. Or think about God.

Rabbi David Fohrman does a lovely job explaining (from a Jewish perspective) what actually took place in the Garden of Eden.

Introduction (http://www.aish.com/literacy/exploring/Serpents_of_Desire_Good_and_Evil_in_the_Garden_of_ Eden._An_Introduction.asp)
Part 1 (http://www.aish.com/literacy/exploring/Adam3_Eve_and_the_Elephant_in_the_Room_-_Serpents_of_Desire3_Part_1.asp)
Part 2 (http://www.aish.com/literacy/exploring/A_Tale_of_Two_Trees_-_Serpents_of_Desire3_Part_2.asp)
Part 3 (http://www.aish.com/literacy/exploring/The_Dark_Side_of_Paradise_-_Serpents_of_Desire3_Part_3.asp)
Part 4 (http://www.aish.com/literacy/exploring/The_Naked_Truth_Serpents_of_Desire3_Part_4.asp)
Part 5 (http://www.aish.com/literacy/exploring/Whats_In_It_for_the_Snake$_Serpents_of_Desire3_Par t_5.asp)
Part 6 (http://www.aish.com/literacy/exploring/Beauty_and_the_Beast_Serpents_of_Desire3_Part_6.as p)
Part 7 (http://www.aish.com/literacy/exploring/A_World_of_Broccoli_and_Pizza_Serpents_of_Desire3_ Part_7.asp)
Part 8 (http://www.aish.com/literacy/exploring/A_Dark_and_Rainy_Night_in_Manhattan_Serpents_of_De sire3_Part_8.asp)
Part 9 (http://www.aish.com/literacy/exploring/The_I_of_the_Beholder_Serpents_of_Desire3_Part_9.a sp)
Part 10 (http://www.aish.com/literacy/exploring/Friedrich_Nietzsche_and_the_Disc_Jockey_Serpents_o f_Desire3_Part_10.asp)
Conclusion (http://www.aish.com/literacy/exploring/Historys_First_Question_Where_Are_You$__Serpents_o f_Desire3_Final_Chapter.asp)

[Harmonious]

For the record, I've actually read the series at least twice. I'm embarking on a third time.

[HisServant]

So now there's a theological hierarchy? just how many gods are there?

ONE. :mrgreen:
In Three Persons. Father, Son, Holy Spirit. :mrgreen:
This concept is known as the Trinity Doctrine.

[HisServant]

No you can't and you can't call Jesus God Almighty either.

To my knowledge no one has. We have called Him God the Son. All those who know and understand the Trinity have at least. Those who don't get the titles constantly confused.

[HisServant]

Neither because according to Christ it is harder to attain everlasting life.

:))
I need a spin icon.
It is only hard for those who love their riches more than God. I just love your lack of answers.

[Angryamerican]

ONE. :mrgreen:
In Three Persons. Father, Son, Holy Spirit. :mrgreen:
This concept is known as the Trinity Doctrine.

Man begets man.

I don't know can God beget a god?

After all he can do anything correct?

[HisServant]

does it being a poetic book mean that you cant take any of it literal? Is it not still God's word?

(ASV) And the king said unto her, Be not afraid: for what seest thou? And the woman said unto Saul, I see a god coming up out of the earth.

(ESV) The king said to her, "Do not be afraid. What do you see?" And the woman said to Saul, "I see a god coming up out of the earth."

(JPS) And the king said unto her: 'Be not afraid; for what seest thou?' And the woman said unto Saul: 'I see a godlike being coming up out of the earth.'

(KJV) And the king said unto her, Be not afraid: for what sawest thou? And the woman said unto Saul, I saw gods ascending out of the earth.

(KJV+) And the king4428 said559 unto her, Be not408 afraid:3372 for3588 what4100 sawest7200 thou? And the woman802 said559 unto413 Saul,7586 I saw7200 gods430 ascending5927 out of4480 the earth.776

(MKJV) And the king said to her, Do not be afraid. For what did you see? And the woman said to Saul, I saw gods coming up out of the earth

One version says godlike beings and one says gods.

That is almost exactly what it means AA. You have to be careful when reading Psalm. for instance there are verses that say clap mountains. Do mountains clap? No. it is just an expression.

As far as the other verses you are quoting I don't know where they are from but what is clear is that God is not making the statement. It is the point of view of a woman. When people don't know what they are seeing they use whatever words they can to best describe what they see. That does not mean what they are seeing is actually a god. Surely you can understand that. for instance in revelation John says dragons,beast, etc.. Do you think he is actually describing a dragon and that one day we will see a physical dragon. Or did he just lack the words in his own language to describe what he saw? If God showed him an airplane how do you think he would describe it? He would not say airplane he would not know what it is. But perhaps to him a beast that stings and shoots fire would be a description.

[Angryamerican]

:))
I need a spin icon.
It is only hard for those who love their riches more than God. I just love your lack of answers.

I answer with my true opinion and you say i am spinning? :))


No i am not hurting but what is your definition of rich?

[HisServant]

So far we agree.


But here is where it doesn't work. God DID ask for their advice and counsel.

In Beresheet Rabba, there is a fascinating story that details angels discussing back and forth whether the world would be a better place with or without man. Some angels were on the side of God creating man, and some angels were on the side of God NOT creating man.

When the debate was over, they came to the conclusion that creation would be better off without man. God thanked them for their efforts and their opinions, but He had His own plan. And He created Adam and Eve.

What is the Beresheet Rabba? Cute story.

[Harmonious]

Man begets man.

I don't know can God beget a god?

After all he can do anything correct?Except make another one of God.

[Harmonious]

What is the Beresheet Rabba? Cute story.

It is a collection of stories and laws (I would imagine) that better explain what goes on in Genesis. It is in Aramaic, and it is pretty big.

I've never actually studied it, but I know a few stories that are there.

I don't think it is actually translated into English. But a few not-so-random stories are usually available if you know where to look. (I don't always.)

[Angryamerican]

That is almost exactly what it means AA. You have to be careful when reading Psalm. for instance there are verses that say clap mountains. Do mountains clap? No. it is just an expression.

As far as the other verses you are quoting I don't know where they are from but what is clear is that God is not making the statement. It is the point of view of a woman. When people don't know what they are seeing they use whatever words they can to best describe what they see. That does not mean what they are seeing is actually a god. Surely you can understand that. for instance in revelation John says dragons,beast, etc.. Do you think he is actually describing a dragon and that one day we will see a physical dragon. Or did he just lack the words in his own language to describe what he saw? If God showed him an airplane how do you think he would describe it? He would not say airplane he would not know what it is. But perhaps to him a beast that stings and shoots fire would be a description.

You are right not all we read in the bible is literal and the only way to know what is literal is study.

I would say a majority of revelation is not literal just like the lake of fire and eternal torment God is love and just that is out of character i would say.

[Angryamerican]

Except make another one of God.

Well if he did i don't think he would have made him equal to himself.

[HisServant]

It is good to agree for a change, HisServant.

:redface:

I also agree that you are very learned and very polite. It is a wonderful thing to have exchanges of ideas, disagree and be respectful. We disagree on Jesus and I do not get offended because you are at least kind even in the insults. :)) I enjoy learning what Judiasm believes and teaches. it helps me understand the OT better and it brings light to the NT for me.

[Harmonious]

Well if he did i don't think he would have made him equal to himself.
He wouldn't have made one, period.

[Harmonious]

:redface:

I also agree that you are very learned and very polite. It is a wonderful thing to have exchanges of ideas, disagree and be respectful. We disagree on Jesus and I do not get offended because you are at least kind even in the insults. :)) I enjoy learning what Judiasm believes and teaches. it helps me understand the OT better and it brings light to the NT for me.

:hug:

[Angryamerican]

He wouldn't have made one, period.

God doesn't want or need a son then why did he create angels and man?

[Harmonious]

God doesn't want or need a son then why did he create angels and man?What does creating angels and man have to do with wanting or needing a son?

[Angryamerican]

:hug:

Harmonious

Why is the messiah mentioned as a mighty God then?




Book Title Judaica Press Complete Tanach

« Previous Next »
Yeshayahu - Chapter 9
Show Rashi's Commentary
1. The people who walked in darkness, have seen a great light; those who dwell in the land of the shadow of death, light shone upon them.
2. You have aggrandized this nation; you have magnified the joy for them; they have rejoiced over You like the joy of harvest, as they rejoice when they divide spoils.
3. For, the yoke of his burden and the staff of his shoulder, the rod of the one who oppressed him have You broken, as on the day of Midian.
4. For every victory shout sounds with clamor, and garments wallow in blood, but this shall be burnt, consumed by fire.
5. For a child has been born to us, a son given to us, and the authority is upon his shoulder, and the wondrous adviser, the mighty God, the everlasting Father, called his name, "the prince of peace."
6. To him who increases the authority, and for peace without end, on David's throne and on his kingdom, to establish it and to support it with justice and with righteousness; from now and to eternity, the zeal of the Lord of Hosts shall accomplish this.

[Angryamerican]

What does creating angels and man have to do with wanting or needing a son?

Does he not call us sons of God?

[Angryamerican]

By the way that is in Isa chapter 9.

[Harmonious]

Harmonious

Why is the messiah mentioned as a mighty God then?




Book Title Judaica Press Complete Tanach

« Previous Next »
Yeshayahu - Chapter 9
Show Rashi's Commentary
1. The people who walked in darkness, have seen a great light; those who dwell in the land of the shadow of death, light shone upon them.
2. You have aggrandized this nation; you have magnified the joy for them; they have rejoiced over You like the joy of harvest, as they rejoice when they divide spoils.
3. For, the yoke of his burden and the staff of his shoulder, the rod of the one who oppressed him have You broken, as on the day of Midian.
4. For every victory shout sounds with clamor, and garments wallow in blood, but this shall be burnt, consumed by fire.
5. For a child has been born to us, a son given to us, and the authority is upon his shoulder, and the wondrous adviser, the mighty God, the everlasting Father, called his name, "the prince of peace."6. To him who increases the authority, and for peace without end, on David's throne and on his kingdom, to establish it and to support it with justice and with righteousness; from now and to eternity, the zeal of the Lord of Hosts shall accomplish this.
The messiah is not the mighty God. God is the mighty God. The messiah is the Prince of Peace.

[Harmonious]

Does he not call us sons of God?
Israel is called God's Firstborn. So in a fashion, yes He does.

But God's need for a begotten son doesn't do anything for me. As far as I'm concerned, it is wishful thinking on behalf of the Christians, and was invented to garner the attention of pagans who understood demi-gods but not invisible gods.

This has nothing to do with the God of Israel.

[Angryamerican]

The messiah is not the mighty God. God is the mighty God. The messiah is the Prince of Peace.

Can you translate this for me.

Isa 9:6 (9:5) For a child is born unto us, a son is given unto us; and the government is upon his shoulder; and his name is called Pele- joez-el-gibbor-Abi-ad-sar-shalom;

[Harmonious]

Can you translate this for me.

Isa 9:6 (9:5) For a child is born unto us, a son is given unto us; and the government is upon his shoulder; and his name is called Pele- joez-el-gibbor-Abi-ad-sar-shalom;

Ki yeled yulad lanu ben nitan lanu vat'hi hamisra al shichmo, vayikra shmo pele yo'etz el gibor avi ad Sar Shalom.

Because a boy is born to us, a son is given to us, and the responsibility to rule is on his shoulder; and his name will be called [by the] Wonderous Advisor, Mighty God, Eternal Father: Prince of Peace.

[HisServant]

I'm becoming impatient, because I've answered this question for you many times before.

Sometimes B'nei Elohim mean nobles, and sometimes it means angels.

The word Elohim can either mean nobles, angels, false gods, or God Himself, depending on the context.

I feel your pain. :)

[HisServant]

Man begets man.

I don't know can God beget a god?

After all he can do anything correct?

The fact that God can do anything does not mean He will or should do something. He did not create "a god". The Logos always existed with God. So He is not created.

[HisServant]

I answer with my true opinion and you say i am spinning? :))


No i am not hurting but what is your definition of rich?

It is not that you answer. It is that you do not answer the question at hand. You give answers to questions not asked. The you present verses that have nothing to do with the subject at hand.

Rich would be anyone with more money than me. :))

[HisServant]

It is a collection of stories and laws (I would imagine) that better explain what goes on in Genesis. It is in Aramaic, and it is pretty big.

I've never actually studied it, but I know a few stories that are there.

I don't think it is actually translated into English. But a few not-so-random stories are usually available if you know where to look. (I don't always.)

Thanks. So it is a bunch of writings by men. Not writings inspired by God like the Bible. So the present opinions but that does not make them true.

[HisServant]

You are right not all we read in the bible is literal and the only way to know what is literal is study.

I would say a majority of revelation is not literal just like the lake of fire and eternal torment God is love and just that is out of character i would say.

The lake of fire is real. Eternal punishment is real. The wages of sin is death. God will judge all.

[HisServant]

Ki yeled yulad lanu ben nitan lanu vat'hi hamisra al shichmo, vayikra shmo pele yo'etz el gibor avi ad Sar Shalom.

Because a boy is born to us, a son is given to us, and the responsibility to rule is on his shoulder; and his name will be called [by the] Wonderous Advisor, Mighty God, Eternal Father: Prince of Peace.

Where does the "[by the]" and the ':' come from?

[DRS]

Yeah I don't study OK. Yeah I have preconcieved notions (Mr. I see angels everywhere) I defame representatives yeah ok...

Learn english DRS. Saying someone is like a god is not calling them a god.
There is only ONE God thus no such things as god, a god or gods. Even Paul address this when talking about foods being offered to idols being nonsense.

It is not my fault if you are ignorant and speak abusively of the holy ones, those anointed by holy spirit. Pauk reakky warns against that.

[DRS]

Skipped right over everlasting Father I see.

Why would that bother since Jesus had to replace and Adam and was the last Adam then he is the everlasting father of mankindm something Adam could have been.

[DRS]

Twaddle, twaddle twaddle..

Disrespecting men who represent God and the word of God because you want to hold onto a doctrine that is not found in scripture.

[Harmonious]

Thanks. So it is a bunch of writings by men. Not writings inspired by God like the Bible. So the present opinions but that does not make them true.

Not at all. They were passed down when the Torah was given to Moses on Mount Sinai. I just don't know when the collection was written or by whom. But this is definitely Torah given to Moses from Sinai.

[Harmonious]

Where does the "[by the]" and the ':' come from?
Context. They are grammar tools of context. Context says that by definition, the adjectives are about God. I've seen translations that start with all of the adjectives about God followed by "called his name Prince of Peace."

God is not a man. Any hint that a man would be called God is completely misunderstood.

[Tucson Jim]

I'm becoming impatient, because I've answered this question for you many times before.



Forgive me, but I just have to say - Welcome to the club!!

[Tucson Jim]

ONE. :mrgreen:
In Three Persons. Father, Son, Holy Spirit. :mrgreen:
This concept is known as the Trinity Doctrine.

Congratulations - I think that is the 300th time you have defined the trinity in this thread.

You should get a prize or something . . .:clap:

[Harmonious]

Forgive me, but I just have to say - Welcome to the club!!

:mrgreen:

[HisServant]

It is not my fault if you are ignorant and speak abusively of the holy ones, those anointed by holy spirit. Pauk reakky warns against that.

You know what I love about you DRS. You call others ignorant then you totally misrepresent what they say and take it out of context. Do you have a clue as to what my point was?

[HisServant]

Disrespecting men who represent God and the word of God because you want to hold onto a doctrine that is not found in scripture.

thanks for showing all here that you have a serious problem with regards to reading and comprehension. I think everyone else understands my comment was in regards to your nonsense and drivel and not at God's representatives. But hey knock yourself out with baseless accusations and concusions that are false and have no foundations. :rolleyes:

[HisServant]

Not at all. They were passed down when the Torah was given to Moses on Mount Sinai. I just don't know when the collection was written or by whom. But this is definitely Torah given to Moses from Sinai.

Sorry. :redface:

[HisServant]

Context. They are grammar tools of context. Context says that by definition, the adjectives are about God. I've seen translations that start with all of the adjectives about God followed by "called his name Prince of Peace."

God is not a man. Any hint that a man would be called God is completely misunderstood.

very interesting. Because that almost seems to be a subjective input. In otherwords that verse has been translated with out the components you inserted and doing such takes on a whole new meaning. Of course I know yours is the only correct one because we cannot have verses in the OT that show that Jesus is the messiah. :razz:

[HisServant]

Congratulations - I think that is the 300th time you have defined the trinity in this thread.

You should get a prize or something . . .:clap:

Oh I got something, I call it carpooltunnel syndrome. :mrgreen:

[DRS]

You know what I love about you DRS. You call others ignorant then you totally misrepresent what they say and take it out of context. Do you have a clue as to what my point was?

Thst you do not understand what it means when who represents The Almighty is called god.

[HisServant]

Thst you do not understand what it means when who represents The Almighty is called god.

Wrong. Sorry thanks for playing anyway. Then you wonder why you don't agree with the Doctrine of the Trinity nor can you see that the Holy Spirit is a person. You lack a basic need in reading called comprehension. What you are really gifted at is interjecting your own opinion into things and then thinking that that is the authors intent. That is not a good thing to do. It leads to misrepresentations.

[Tucson Jim]

Thst you do not understand what it means when who represents The Almighty is called god.

So . . . next time the JWs come knocking, should I address them as "god"?

[DRS]

So . . . next time the JWs come knocking, should I address them as "god"?

You know how many time I get called Jehovah.

[DRS]

Wrong. Sorry thanks for playing anyway. Then you wonder why you don't agree with the Doctrine of the Trinity nor can you see that the Holy Spirit is a person. You lack a basic need in reading called comprehension. What you are really gifted at is interjecting your own opinion into things and then thinking that that is the authors intent. That is not a good thing to do. It leads to misrepresentations.

Sorry but the bible is full of examples of one's whoare either called God or called Jehovah. This is done to show they do not speak of their own originality.

If I though you would take the time to sttudy because you want to understand I would give you lots of verses to look at, but you were given verses discussing the hebrew word of spirit, and what it means in totality.

[HisServant]

Sorry but the bible is full of examples of one's whoare either called God or called Jehovah. This is done to show they do not speak of their own originality.

If I though you would take the time to sttudy because you want to understand I would give you lots of verses to look at, but you were given verses discussing the hebrew word of spirit, and what it means in totality.

DRS I understand the difference between God and those who represent Him. I know what a prophet is. I know what an embassador is. They are not gods. That is never the way it is translated. ONly those wishing to diminish Jesus or the Word of God would do such a thing. Since there is only ONE God calling anything else god or a god is just plain fasle.

The is a difference between calling someone lord small 'L' and calling God and Jesus Lord capital "L". Most Christian don't have a problem with the distinction either. Kings and nobles are often called lord by their subjects. That does not make them "a god". It is a title of authority. But there is only ONE LORD of ALL. There is ONE who has all authority, His name is Jesus.

Finally where your theology fails is in keeping the definition of words within the context of which they are found. You want to translate ruach into wind or breath everywhere you see it in order to maintain it is an impersonal force. That is not how to interpret words. What you need to do is read the context behind the word. When seeing "Elohim Ruach" we know it is not the wind of God, not the Breath of God but, the Spirit of God or The Holy Spirit.

[DRS]

Then explain why men from Moses all the way to angels are called god throughout the OT.

Translating the OT accurately is done to diminish Jesus?

Maybe the constant mistransltions i see are done in an effort to make Jesus more that he is.

Yes the spirit of God His impersonal force, not a person.

[HisServant]

Then explain why men from Moses all the way to angels are called god throughout the OT.

Translating the OT accurately is done to diminish Jesus?

Maybe the constant mistransltions i see are done in an effort to make Jesus more that he is.

Yes the spirit of God His impersonal force, not a person.

I cannot explain why people want to believe nonsense. I do not think anyone thinks Moses is a god except you my friend. I have yet to see the Bible proclaim an angel being a god. What you see when you read is that men who lack understanding make statements and claims. The OT is clear on what God says and what man says. That you cannot differentiate between the two is clear and sad. There is only ONE GOD.

And your insistance on taking statements and twisting their meaning is another example of why you read scripture incorrectly. I never made the above statement that is you misinterpreting again. The funny thing is you actually proved the very point I was making. Men take passages from the Bible and then change the meaning by changing the words or message. Thanks for proving my point that your interpretations are very questionable.

[DRS]

I cannot explain why people want to believe nonsense. I do not think anyone thinks Moses is a god except you my friend. I have yet to see the Bible proclaim an angel being a god. What you see when you read is that men who lack understanding make statements and claims. The OT is clear on what God says and what man says. That you cannot differentiate between the two is clear and sad. There is only ONE GOD.

And your insistance on taking statements and twisting their meaning is another example of why you read scripture incorrectly. I never made the above statement that is you misinterpreting again. The funny thing is you actually proved the very point I was making. Men take passages from the Bible and then change the meaning by changing the words or message. Thanks for proving my point that your interpretations are very questionable.


See that is the thing you just can't seem to get, because you need God to always mean the object of worship in order to support the idea that Jesus is equal to Jehovah or part of some triune god. See until you study the OT and get an understanding of how calling ones god and godlike does not diminish the Almighty you can not grasp why Jesus could be called a god also.

Oh as for angels *5*You also proceeded to make him a little less than godlike ones,
And with glory and splendor you then crowned him

[HisServant]

See that is the thing you just can't seem to get, because you need God to always mean the object of worship in order to support the idea that Jesus is equal to Jehovah or part of some triune god. See until you study the OT and get an understanding of how calling ones god and godlike does not diminish the Almighty you can not grasp why Jesus could be called a god also.

Oh as for angels *5*You also proceeded to make him a little less than godlike ones,
And with glory and splendor you then crowned him

Not a problem I have. I only worship the Lord my God. I understand that someone who comes in the name of the Lord is not God nor are they "a god". I know that angels are not God nor are they "a god". If you are telling me that in your study of the OT you see other gods and therefore we can worship them in a different way then we worship God then what can I tell you, you have a different view then the majority of Christian. Whenever scripture makes comparative statements it is never to make the case that a person is "a god" it is showing how we falsely do so. Those who represent God never allowed themselves to be worshipped nor did they ever set themselves up as being divine.

What I see you doing is thus. I say that person has catlike reflexes. You think Oh you mean that person is like a cat. No that is not what that statement means. Someone says doctors have godlike complexes. You think oh you mean doctors are like God. No, that is not what the statement means.

Scripture simply does not teach what you are saying. Thus when it does speak about Jesus in that regard you diminish who Jesus is because your view is flawed by thinking Jesus is being spoken of like everyone else is. That is false. He is the Only Son Of God. He is the Logos. He always existed and always will exist with God. He is God. He is the Creator. He is the Alpha and Omega. He is the Lamb of God. He is the only way. He is the resurrection and Life. There is no other like Him. There will never be another like Him. He is Emmanuel. God with us.

[drmilo]

44. This is the catholic faith, which except a man believe faithfully he cannot be saved.

This #44 is a strong statement. Christ and the apostles were not saved then, because they didn't teach this. Also, I didn't realize that you were catholic.

Not that this has much to do except to clarify something--

catholic with a lowercase "c" and Catholic with a uppercase "C" are different.

catholic with a lowercase "c" is defined as:

catholic
–adjective
1. broad or wide-ranging in tastes, interests, or the like; having sympathies with all; broad-minded; liberal.
2. universal in extent; involving all; of interest to all.
3. pertaining to the whole Christian body or church.

Catholic with an uppercase "c" refers to the Catholic Chuch .specifically

[Harmonious]

very interesting. Because that almost seems to be a subjective input. In otherwords that verse has been translated with out the components you inserted and doing such takes on a whole new meaning. Of course I know yours is the only correct one because we cannot have verses in the OT that show that Jesus is the messiah. :razz:
:) Of course, the proper context, if not immediately recognizable, is given in that Oral Tradition. This one wasn't from Moses, because Isaiah lived significantly later than Moses. But this Oral Tradition was Isaiah's.

There are things he didn't need to say in the text, as it was obvious to the Jewish audience. But it was passed along from Isaiah's day until the commentators wrote it down.

[DRS]

Not a problem I have. I only worship the Lord my God. I understand that someone who comes in the name of the Lord is not God nor are they "a god". I know that angels are not God nor are they "a god". If you are telling me that in your study of the OT you see other gods and therefore we can worship them in a different way then we worship God then what can I tell you, you have a different view then the majority of Christian. Whenever scripture makes comparative statements it is never to make the case that a person is "a god" it is showing how we falsely do so. Those who represent God never allowed themselves to be worshipped nor did they ever set themselves up as being divine.

What I see you doing is thus. I say that person has catlike reflexes. You think Oh you mean that person is like a cat. No that is not what that statement means. Someone says doctors have godlike complexes. You think oh you mean doctors are like God. No, that is not what the statement means.

Scripture simply does not teach what you are saying. Thus when it does speak about Jesus in that regard you diminish who Jesus is because your view is flawed by thinking Jesus is being spoken of like everyone else is. That is false. He is the Only Son Of God. He is the Logos. He always existed and always will exist with God. He is God. He is the Creator. He is the Alpha and Omega. He is the Lamb of God. He is the only way. He is the resurrection and Life. There is no other like Him. There will never be another like Him. He is Emmanuel. God with us.

You really are dense see once you understand that one who comes in the name of the Almighty is called god then you understand why Jesus is called god. I have never said to worship anyone but Jehovah, you are the one who says he worships Jesus too.

[drmilo]

Well i've shown where Jesus is called a mighty God but i can't seem to find where he is called God Almighty.

Can you point out where Jesus is referred to as God Almighty?

If there is no other God but God, and Jesus is said to be mighty God, then Jesus must be God. For there is only one God.

[DRS]

If there is no other God but God, and Jesus is said to be mighty God, then Jesus must be God. For there is only one God.

God is used to refernce those who speak in Jehovah's name have holy spirit directing them, many many many times in the OT.

Jehovah told Moses I will make you God to pharoah.

[HisServant]

:) Of course, the proper context, if not immediately recognizable, is given in that Oral Tradition. This one wasn't from Moses, because Isaiah lived significantly later than Moses. But this Oral Tradition was Isaiah's.

There are things he didn't need to say in the text, as it was obvious to the Jewish audience. But it was passed along from Isaiah's day until the commentators wrote it down.

Thanks.

[drmilo]

God doesn't get all the blame. People were exercising their free will. But God allowed it to happen.

Satan is nothing but an automaton doing what God tells him to do.

Just a question:

If angels (which Satan, or Lucifer) is one, are nothing but automations doing what God tells them, does that mean that Angels have no free will?

If this is the case, and humans have free will, is Free Will what makes us created in God's image?

If we are created in God's image, and the Angels are not, and God says "Let us make man in our image" in Genesis, then He must be speaking to someone who was either made in God's image or equal to God's image, no?

So he could not be speaking to Angels, since Angels are not made in God's image. The only other being mentioned, as HisServant keeps posting, is the Spirit of God. So that's who God must be speaking to.

If God is speaking to His Spirit, then the Spirit must be a person, just as God is a person.

[HisServant]

You really are dense see once you understand that one who comes in the name of the Almighty is called god then you understand why Jesus is called god. I have never said to worship anyone but Jehovah, you are the one who says he worships Jesus too.

You keep calling others gods even though the bible says there is only one and never calls anyone else such. But I am dense OK.. Next.. :rolleyes:

[DRS]

You keep calling others gods even though the bible says there is only one and never calls anyone else such. But I am dense OK.. Next.. :rolleyes:

Okay then what Exodus 7:1 say?

Or Psalm 82:6?