Should You Believe In The Trinity?

[Angryamerican]

Why? Because instead of backing up your assertions you respond with this stupidity



or this little gem of intelligent posting



all of this instead of just doing the credible thing in a discussion; back up your assertions.

I did and you deny. So spare me your rhetoric. You offer nothing on what pagan ways mean, and you know thats not what you meant when you made that statement.

But you go ahead and think what you like. I'll just chalk it up to you didn't know what you were talking about. but i will continue to post what i find on this subject and doing my best to educate hoping people like you will one day see the light.

[Constantine the Great]

I did and you deny.
You did not. All you gave so far is someone else's opinion, that you have taken for your own.
So spare me your rhetoric. You offer nothing on what pagan ways mean, and you know thats not what you meant when you made that statement.
I already told you. Any worship that does not glorify God. Now you are going to tell me what I meant? If nothing else, you should know by now I have no trouble saying what I mean. No trouble at all. Mincing words is not a part of my diet.


But you go ahead and think what you like. I'll just chalk it up to you didn't know what you were talking about. but i will continue to post what i find on this subject and doing my best to educate hoping people like you will one day see the light.

As soon as you back up your assertions, perhaps people will take you seriously instead of the just recycling others opinions.

[HisServant]

If Jesus is not God the Father then how are they one God? For the trinity to work Jesus has to be the Father and the Spirit, the only stipulation is Jesus is God the Father in human form. oh nevermind I am confused....

Mathius how is that you can take water and freeze it and it becomes ice, heat it and it becomes vapor. The same water exist as liquid, solid and vapor? How is it that it exist in 3 forms but it is the same H2O?

[HisServant]

:wall: You just don't get it.

Perhaps it is you my friend. Have you ever thought of that? Seems everyone must agree with your POV. Why not try to be open minded. It is an opinion with no substance that angels are in God's image. The verses we are looking at do not talk of angels. Do not talk of anyone other than God and the Holy Spirit and man. I respect your opinion and that of your rabbis. However it is possible that you are both incorrect in your assertions. All I am doing is looking at scripture not going by opinion. Can the same be said of you?

[HisServant]

Hmm God created the heavens first right? So therefor all of the angels were created before man as man was the last thing God created.

Genesis 1
[26]Then God said: "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness. Let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, the birds of the air, and the cattle, and over all the wild animals and all the creatures that crawl on the ground." [27]God created man in his image; in the divine image he created him; male and female he created them.

God had dominion over everything, the angels had dominion over the heavens, and man had dominion over the earth see verse 26. I verse 27 God created man in HIS image not our as stated in verse 26.

By taking things out of context you completely miss after our likeness part where we have dominion of the earth like the Father has dominion over all and so on.

There you go making unsupported assumptions. Where does it say Angels are created in Gods image? Where does it say angels have dominion over the heavens? Nothing is out of context don't state it show it. You stated "out of context" can you show me where?

[Ron Jon]

If Jesus is not God the Father then how are they one God? For the trinity to work Jesus has to be the Father and the Spirit, the only stipulation is Jesus is God the Father in human form. oh nevermind I am confused....Yes, I would say so. Do you not know the difference between the Christian doctrine of the Trinity and Modelism? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modalism

[DRS]

They may have been present we can agree. Here is the question.
Gen 1:27 says. That man was created in God's image.
So whether or not angels were present is moot. They had nothing to do with creation they had nothing to do with man being created. Man was created in God's image. And if that is so when we go back to verse 26 where God says "us" it is clear that "us" is not the angels since v27 does not say "so God made man in the image of Himself and Angels" Not it states "God made man in His image in His likeness". Therefore one can only conclude "us" is absolutely not angels. The only remaining beings present is found in the first 2 verses. God and the Spirit of God. Thus we can conclude that man was made in the image of God the Father and God the Holy Spirit according to this. If this makes sense we can then add Jesus to this. Let me know when you'd like to proceed.


You run into a few problems though with your theory, first off the spirit is not a person as I have shown from the bible. so God was not speaking to it. Secondly Proverbs 8 shows Jesus was created and hand a hand in creation.

Finally if the verse had said in God's image and the angel's image that would mean the angels were not in God's image, but since they already were there was no need to say anything about the image of the angels.

As for procedding the day you point out what the English words of the Hebrew ruach are in each of the verses I posted earlier we can move on.

[DRS]

What both you and DRS fail to see is right in front of you. They were there and what role did they play in creation according to the verse you cited?
Yep. They rejoiced in what they saw. They were there and not involved. That is called reading the text my friend. I have not denied there presence I have denied their involvement. Care to comment now?

All creation is ascribed to God since all power to create comes from God.

The same can be said when angels speak to man it says Jehovah is speaking because the words are not their own. Prophets to would say hear the word of Jehovah, yet it was they that spoke.

As for the water thing why not try a real example like what do we call it when a person exhibits more than one personality?

[Angryamerican]

You did not. All you gave so far is someone else's opinion, that you have taken for your own.

I already told you. Any worship that does not glorify God. Now you are going to tell me what I meant? If nothing else, you should know by now I have no trouble saying what I mean. No trouble at all. Mincing words is not a part of my diet.




As soon as you back up your assertions, perhaps people will take you seriously instead of the just recycling others opinions.

Opinions and beliefs are formed from learning. I don't claim to be God and never had to learn. But do you notice some of the degrading things you say about people when they don't agree with you?

I would like to know which school you attended sense all of your opinions came from your own thinking without someone influencing your beliefs and opinions.

And i am sure you thought up the trinity on your own.By your comments you insult everyone here because they to read and learn and form opinions from others research.

Are you that sure you are superior in brain power over so many less unfortunates?

If you want respect you have to give respect.

[HisServant]

You run into a few problems though with your theory, first off the spirit is not a person as I have shown from the bible. so God was not speaking to it. Secondly Proverbs 8 shows Jesus was created and hand a hand in creation.

Finally if the verse had said in God's image and the angel's image that would mean the angels were not in God's image, but since they already were there was no need to say anything about the image of the angels.

As for procedding the day you point out what the English words of the Hebrew ruach are in each of the verses I posted earlier we can move on.

Actually I run into no problems what so ever. Apparently you do becuase the scriptures do not line up with your talking points. Spirit not a force and Jesus is not created and not in prov 8. I guess you think the more you say it it will be true? :wall:

[HisServant]

All creation is ascribed to God since all power to create comes from God.

The same can be said when angels speak to man it says Jehovah is speaking because the words are not their own. Prophets to would say hear the word of Jehovah, yet it was they that spoke.

As for the water thing why not try a real example like what do we call it when a person exhibits more than one personality?

More spin. Lets keep to the text and not conjecture and guessing.
these verses show no angels, no prophets. Just God.

[Angryamerican]

Actually I run into no problems what so ever. Apparently you do becuase the scriptures do not line up with your talking points. Spirit not a force and Jesus is not created and not in prov 8. I guess you think the more you say it it will be true? :wall:

What talking points?

Is this the political forum?

[Angryamerican]

More spin. Lets keep to the text and not conjecture and guessing.
these verses show no angels, no prophets. Just God.

When are you gonna get it this has been explained over and over and over.:wall:

[DispensationalJim]

I keep seeing the idea that the Holy Spirit is not a person from some on here. But here are a few verses which show that the Holy Spirit can talk.

• Acts 8:29 Then the Spirit said unto Philip, Go near, and join thyself to this chariot.
• Acts 10:19 While Peter thought on the vision, the Spirit said unto him, Behold, three men seek thee.
• Acts 21:11 And when he was come unto us, he took Paul’s girdle, and bound his own hands and feet, and said, Thus saith the Holy Ghost, So shall the Jews at Jerusalem bind the man that owneth this girdle, and shall deliver him into the hands of the Gentiles.
• Acts 28:25 And when they agreed not among themselves, they departed, after that Paul had spoken one word, Well spake the Holy Ghost by Esaias the prophet unto our fathers,
• 1Cor. 2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man’s wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
• 1Tim. 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
• Heb. 3:7 Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice,
• Heb. 10:15 Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before, 16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;

And then, there are the following verses which indicate that the Holy Spirit has feelings, sight, awareness, etc.

• Acts 5:3 But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land?
• Acts 5:32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.
• Acts 7:51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.
• Acts 15:28 For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;
• Acts 16:6 Now when they had gone throughout Phrygia and the region of Galatia, and were forbidden of the Holy Ghost to preach the word in Asia,
• Acts 20:23 Save that the Holy Ghost witnesseth in every city, saying that bonds and afflictions abide me.
• Acts 20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.
• Eph. 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.
• Heb. 10:15 Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,

Those verses (and many others) make it clear to me that the Holy Spirit is a person, and therefore is God the Holy Spirit.

DJim

[Angryamerican]

I keep seeing the idea that the Holy Spirit is not a person from some on here. But here are a few verses which show that the Holy Spirit can talk.

• Acts 8:29 Then the Spirit said unto Philip, Go near, and join thyself to this chariot.
• Acts 10:19 While Peter thought on the vision, the Spirit said unto him, Behold, three men seek thee.
• Acts 21:11 And when he was come unto us, he took Paul’s girdle, and bound his own hands and feet, and said, Thus saith the Holy Ghost, So shall the Jews at Jerusalem bind the man that owneth this girdle, and shall deliver him into the hands of the Gentiles.
• Acts 28:25 And when they agreed not among themselves, they departed, after that Paul had spoken one word, Well spake the Holy Ghost by Esaias the prophet unto our fathers,
• 1Cor. 2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man’s wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
• 1Tim. 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
• Heb. 3:7 Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice,
• Heb. 10:15 Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before, 16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;

And then, there are the following verses which indicate that the Holy Spirit has feelings, sight, awareness, etc.

• Acts 5:3 But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land?
• Acts 5:32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.
• Acts 7:51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.
• Acts 15:28 For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;
• Acts 16:6 Now when they had gone throughout Phrygia and the region of Galatia, and were forbidden of the Holy Ghost to preach the word in Asia,
• Acts 20:23 Save that the Holy Ghost witnesseth in every city, saying that bonds and afflictions abide me.
• Acts 20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.
• Eph. 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.
• Heb. 10:15 Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,

Those verses (and many others) make it clear to me that the Holy Spirit is a person, and therefore is God the Holy Spirit.

DJim

Notice everything you offered was from the NT.

What was the spirit of God in the OT to see if it agrees with the NT?

[tulsatech]

Notice everything you offered was from the NT.

What was the spirit of God in the OT to see if it agrees with the NT?
Why would it make a difference where it came from (old or new testament)? If you accept both as "scripture" then the real question becomes, why don't you believe it? Especially when it is so plain to see that the Holy Spirit is a person and not some "active force" like electricity. The spirit of God is the Holy Spirit who speaks, feels, sees, etc. Can you say the same thing for electricity? I didn't think so.

[Poisonshady313]

Why would it make a difference where it came from (old or new testament)? If you accept both as "scripture" then the real question becomes, why don't you believe it? Especially when it is so plain to see that the Holy Spirit is a person and not some "active force" like electricity. The spirit of God is the Holy Spirit who speaks, feels, sees, etc. Can you say the same thing for electricity? I didn't think so.

At this point, Angryamerican doesn't consider the NT to be scripture.

[Angryamerican]

Why would it make a difference where it came from (old or new testament)? If you accept both as "scripture" then the real question becomes, why don't you believe it? Especially when it is so plain to see that the Holy Spirit is a person and not some "active force" like electricity. The spirit of God is the Holy Spirit who speaks, feels, sees, etc. Can you say the same thing for electricity? I didn't think so.

Because clearly the OT paints a different picture than the NT.

Show me the holy spirit is doing what you say it does in the OT.

[Angryamerican]

At this point, Angryamerican doesn't consider the NT to be scripture.

Sorry i should have made that clear.

[Angryamerican]

Wow, Not in the OT.

1. No jesus
2. No christ
3. No son of God
4. No trinity

The holy spirit in the OT. The only thing found.

Psa 51:11 (51:13) Cast me not away from Thy presence; and take not Thy holy spirit from me.

What does this scripture mean if the holy spirit is a person?

Isa 63:10 But they rebelled, and grieved His holy spirit; therefore He was turned to be their enemy, Himself fought against them.

Isa 63:11 Then His people remembered the days of old, the days of Moses: 'Where is He that brought them up out of the sea with the shepherds of His flock? Where is He that put His holy spirit in the midst of them?

This whole trinity thing ,and the story of jesus is beginning to raise a red flag. If it looks like fish and smells like fish it's probably fish.

[Angryamerican]

To be fare.

God's spirit how many times does it appear in the OT?
1. 0

Spirit of God how many times does it appear in the OT?
1. 14

And in those verses he did nothing like the NT.

[Poisonshady313]

ruach.... wind. spirit.

being imbued with 'holy spirit' is like wind caught in a sail. It's a force... and energy... a motivation. it is not a being... it is not a person.

[DRS]

Actually I run into no problems what so ever. Apparently you do becuase the scriptures do not line up with your talking points. Spirit not a force and Jesus is not created and not in prov 8. I guess you think the more you say it it will be true? :wall:

All you have do to prove me wrong is take the scriptures I posted earlier and show me where the person is if the ruach is a person.

[DRS]

More spin. Lets keep to the text and not conjecture and guessing.
these verses show no angels, no prophets. Just God.

Genesis 18 who is visiting and talking to Abraham?

Who is the one uttering this statement?

“Hear the word of Jehovah of armies-Is this a prophet or is it Jehovah speaking?

[DRS]

I keep seeing the idea that the Holy Spirit is not a person from some on here. But here are a few verses which show that the Holy Spirit can talk.

• Acts 8:29 Then the Spirit said unto Philip, Go near, and join thyself to this chariot.
• Acts 10:19 While Peter thought on the vision, the Spirit said unto him, Behold, three men seek thee.
• Acts 21:11 And when he was come unto us, he took Paul’s girdle, and bound his own hands and feet, and said, Thus saith the Holy Ghost, So shall the Jews at Jerusalem bind the man that owneth this girdle, and shall deliver him into the hands of the Gentiles.
• Acts 28:25 And when they agreed not among themselves, they departed, after that Paul had spoken one word, Well spake the Holy Ghost by Esaias the prophet unto our fathers,
• 1Cor. 2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man’s wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
• 1Tim. 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
• Heb. 3:7 Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice,
• Heb. 10:15 Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before, 16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;

And then, there are the following verses which indicate that the Holy Spirit has feelings, sight, awareness, etc.

• Acts 5:3 But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land?
• Acts 5:32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.
• Acts 7:51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.
• Acts 15:28 For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;
• Acts 16:6 Now when they had gone throughout Phrygia and the region of Galatia, and were forbidden of the Holy Ghost to preach the word in Asia,
• Acts 20:23 Save that the Holy Ghost witnesseth in every city, saying that bonds and afflictions abide me.
• Acts 20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.
• Eph. 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.
• Heb. 10:15 Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,

Those verses (and many others) make it clear to me that the Holy Spirit is a person, and therefore is God the Holy Spirit.

DJim

The Holy Spirit is God's spirit so it is a force of God's.

Isaiah 63:10*But they themselves rebelled and made his holy spirit feel hurt. He now was changed into an enemy of theirs; he himself warred against them. 11*And one began to remember the days of long ago, Moses his servant: “Where is the One that brought them up out of the sea with the shepherds of his flock? Where is the One that put within him His own holy spirit?

(Numbers 11:17) And I shall have to come down and speak with you there; and I shall have to take away some of the spirit that is upon you and place it upon them, and they will have to help you in carrying the load of the people that you may not carry it, just you alone

See the spirit is nothing new, God has used his Holy Spirit, so since the hebrew shows it is an impersonal force but still does the same as the NT it is not a person.

[DispensationalJim]

Hello, DRS!

Are you an expert in the Hebrew language? If so, which Hebrew text do you use? There are several, you know. Just as serious differences appear in the New Testament Greek texts, so also are there serious differences in the Hebrew texts available today. Thus, you must determine which one is authoritative to you.

As I have said many times, the trinitarians can show their views from their favorite Bible translation(s) with lots of verses which support the deity of Christ, etc., and -- as you and others have demonstrated -- those who disagree can find a translation that appears to support their view.

So we will continue to discuss our views, as kindly as possible but for some to claim -- as a couple of fellas on here have done several times -- that their view is the ONLY RIGHT VIEW is just not acceptable on this forum, and IMHO totally UNPROVABLE. I have learned to add the good old IMHO (In My Humble Opinion) when I deem it to be appropriate.

I have stated often that I have been diligently studying God's Word (OT and NT) for over 50 years, and as I have GROWN in my studies, I have changed some of my doctrinal positions. I want to always be open to see the other person's view, and I will try to avoid saying that mine is ABSOLUTE. I will simply give the best presentation I can of what I have learned from the Bible and hope that others can see that I am not basing my views on feelings, but on a rational understanding of His Word.

DispensationalJim

[Poisonshady313]

Hello, DRS!

Are you an expert in the Hebrew language? If so, which Hebrew text do you use? There are several, you know. Just as serious differences appear in the New Testament Greek texts, so also are there serious differences in the Hebrew texts available today. Thus, you must determine which one is authoritative to you.


I would just like to clarify... there are differences in the TRANSLATIONS of the Hebrew texts. The Hebrew words themselves are the same in every book you open.

[DispensationalJim]

Nice to see tulsatech joining in.

I have posted dozens of verses from the OT which IMHO show Jesus to be alive and well all the way back to the creation. Those who disagree have used other translations (I am KJV all the way) and many definitions, etc. to attempt to change the emphasis of those verses.

I just posted many verses from the NT showing the Holy Spirit to be a Person, but Angry no longer accepts the NT, so too bad, Angry. I stated a few pages back that the NT has probably changed more lives for the good than all the rest of the books ever written, but apparently Angry has never known that "life-changing" experience of trusting wholly in the Savior, Jesus Christ. Again, too bad, Angry. No wonder you are angry.

And, regarding the Holy Spirit existing in the OT, I say, "Of course He existed in the OT!" He was there in Genesis 1 and was there all the way through to Rev. 22. In the OT He was representing The Father as He dealt with His chosen people, Israel, but in the NT, He became the "Indweller" of the believer in Christ. We who have trusted in Christ have become "temples" of God.

I will post some verses later that show that God dwells in our lives through the Holy Spirit and through Jesus Christ. But for now, have you considered these as trinitarian verses?

• Is. 6:3 And one cried unto another, and said, Holy, holy, holy, is the LORD of hosts: the whole earth is full of his glory.

compared with

• Rev. 4:8 And the four beasts had each of them six wings about him; and they were full of eyes within: and they rest not day and night, saying, Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, which was, and is, and IS TO COME.


Notice there are THREE HOLIES? Is that significant??
And which Lord God Almighty "is to come"?? I believe that the Father will be remaining in Heaven while the Son will be returning to the earth for HIS KINGDOM.

Time's up!

DJim

[DispensationalJim]

Hi, Poison!

Do you have the original Hebrew text? I thought it was long gone, just as the original Greek NT manuscripts are gone.

Are you then a supporter of the Septuagint or the Masoretic text or some other text of the OT that presently exists?

Can you show some proof that you KNOW what the original Hebrew words were?

Thanks,

DJim

[Mathius]

Yes, I would say so. Do you not know the difference between the Christian doctrine of the Trinity and Modelism? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modalism

Trinity
In Christianity, the doctrine of the Trinity states that God is one being who exists, simultaneously and eternally, as a mutual indwelling of three persons: the Father, the Son (incarnate as Jesus of Nazareth), and the Holy Spirit. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trinitarianism#References_to_the_Trinity)

Modalism
In Christianity, Sabellianism (also known as modalism, modalistic monarchianism, or modal monarchism) is the nontrinitarian belief that the Heavenly Father, Resurrected Son and Holy Spirit are different modes or aspects of one God (for us only), rather than three distinct persons (in Himself). (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modalism)

Ah, thanks for helping me clear that up. So Jesus is God but not God the Father who is God.

[HisServant]

When are you gonna get it this has been explained over and over and over.:wall:

I am not the one who has a problem reading the text. Angels are not mention in Genesis 1. It does not matter what you believe the text is clear. Even when you sidestep the issue and post a verse from Job the verse still does not support your view only mine. That God and God alone created. He created man in His image only and the angels only watched and rejoiced. You nor DRS have refuted any of these scriptures

[HisServant]

Genesis 18 who is visiting and talking to Abraham?

Who is the one uttering this statement?

“Hear the word of Jehovah of armies-Is this a prophet or is it Jehovah speaking?

More spin. We are in Genesis chapter 1. Let's examine this first and build on it. What you are doing is bringing confusion into the mix and creating diversions on the topic. Why can't we just go slow and examine the text at hand? If we cannot agree on 4 verses what is the point of continuing.

[HisServant]

All you have do to prove me wrong is take the scriptures I posted earlier and show me where the person is if the ruach is a person.

We can get to that when it is time. Right now we are just examining Gen 1.

[DispensationalJim]

I support you, MyServant, in this discussion of angels. And I think it is great that your "opponents" used Job to prove that there were angels in Gen. 1:26-27 because guess who else is in Job!

Job 19:25 For I know that my REDEEMER LIVETH, and that he shall STAND at the latter day UPON THE EARTH:

========================

Now,we are quite confident from our Bible that God the Father will NOT stand upon the earth at the latter day, but God the Son WILL!

And we know WHO the REDEEMER is, too, don't we?

• Gal. 3:13 CHRIST HATH REDEEMED US from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

• Gal. 4:4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his SON, made of a woman, made under the law, 5 TO REDEEM them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.

• Titus 2:13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious APPEARING of the GREAT GOD AND OUR SAVIOUR JESUS CHRIST; 14 Who gave himself for us, that HE MIGHT REDEEM US from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

• 1Pet. 1:18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not REDEEMED with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;19 But WITHE THE PRECIOUS BLOOD OF CHRIST, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:

• Rev. 5:9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for THOU WAST SLAIN. AND HAST REDEEMED US TO GOD BY THY BLOOD...
-------------------------

IS THE REDEEMER MENTIONED ANY WHERE ELSE IN THE OT? Of course!

• Psa. 78:35 And they remembered that GOD WAS THEIR ROCK, and the high God their REDEEMER.

OK, WHO IS THE ROCK??

• 1Cor. 10:4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual ROCK that followed them: and THAT ROCK WAS CHRIST.

So there is God, the Rock (Jesus Christ) in the OT!

----------------------

Another OT verse:

• Is. 44:6 Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, **and his REDEEMER the LORD of hosts**; I AM THE FIRST, AND I AM THE LAST; and beside me there is no God. ... 24 Thus saith the LORD, THY REDEEMER, and he that FORMED THEE from the womb, I am the LORD that MAKETH ALL THINGS; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;

Do you see a DIFFERENTIATION between the LORD the king of Israel and HIS REDEEMER the LORD of hosts??? That must be Jesus Christ again! After all, Jesus Christ IS THE FIRST AND LAST, and THE CREATOR.

• Rev. 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which PIERCED HIM: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen. ... 11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, THE FIRST AND THE LAST: ... 17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I AM THE FIRST AND THE LAST:

• Rev. 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, THE FIRST AND THE LAST .... 16 I JESUS have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.

==================

Can you not now see that Gen. 1:26 MUST have included God the Son since He is declared THE CREATOR of **ALL THINGS** throughout the NT. You've seen those verses several times already, so I won't bore you with them again.

DispensationalJim

[HisServant]

I support you, MyServant, in this discussion of angels. And I think it is great that your "opponents" used Job to prove that there were angels in Gen. 1:26-27 because guess who else is in Job!

Job 19:25 For I know that my REDEEMER LIVETH, and that he shall STAND at the latter day UPON THE EARTH:

========================

Now,we are quite confident from our Bible that God the Father will NOT stand upon the earth at the latter day, but God the Son WILL!

And we know WHO the REDEEMER is, too, don't we?

• Gal. 3:13 CHRIST HATH REDEEMED US from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

• Gal. 4:4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his SON, made of a woman, made under the law, 5 TO REDEEM them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.

• Titus 2:13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious APPEARING of the GREAT GOD AND OUR SAVIOUR JESUS CHRIST; 14 Who gave himself for us, that HE MIGHT REDEEM US from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

• 1Pet. 1:18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not REDEEMED with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;19 But WITHE THE PRECIOUS BLOOD OF CHRIST, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:

• Rev. 5:9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for THOU WAST SLAIN. AND HAST REDEEMED US TO GOD BY THY BLOOD...
-------------------------

IS THE REDEEMER MENTIONED ANY WHERE ELSE IN THE OT? Of course!

• Psa. 78:35 And they remembered that GOD WAS THEIR ROCK, and the high God their REDEEMER.

OK, WHO IS THE ROCK??

• 1Cor. 10:4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual ROCK that followed them: and THAT ROCK WAS CHRIST.

So there is God, the Rock (Jesus Christ) in the OT!

----------------------

Another OT verse:

• Is. 44:6 Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, **and his REDEEMER the LORD of hosts**; I AM THE FIRST, AND I AM THE LAST; and beside me there is no God. ... 24 Thus saith the LORD, THY REDEEMER, and he that FORMED THEE from the womb, I am the LORD that MAKETH ALL THINGS; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;

Do you see a DIFFERENTIATION between the LORD the king of Israel and HIS REDEEMER the LORD of hosts??? That must be Jesus Christ again! After all, Jesus Christ IS THE FIRST AND LAST, and THE CREATOR.

• Rev. 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which PIERCED HIM: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen. ... 11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, THE FIRST AND THE LAST: ... 17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I AM THE FIRST AND THE LAST:

• Rev. 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, THE FIRST AND THE LAST .... 16 I JESUS have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.

==================

Can you not now see that Gen. 1:26 MUST have included God the Son since He is declared THE CREATOR of **ALL THINGS** throughout the NT. You've seen those verses several times already, so I won't bore you with them again.

DispensationalJim

Thanks DJ. I find it amazing people say they seek the truth. Then they proceed to bring up arguments against thing that are not even being discussed. All I did was say lets start from the Begining, Genesis. Let's do a Bible Study. No preconcieved notions. Lets just look at the verses together and see what they tell us. Very simple 4 verses. None of them even mentions angels. How in the world did we get JOB?:doh: Then I said OK lets look at your verse. Guess what it mentions angels. It says they rejoice at what God has done. So all they did was witness what God did. They had no part in it. And yet as clear as that is that is not enough to convince them that angels have no part in man being created. :doh:

[Warrior4God]

I support you, MyServant, in this discussion of angels. And I think it is great that your "opponents" used Job to prove that there were angels in Gen. 1:26-27 because guess who else is in Job!

Job 19:25 For I know that my REDEEMER LIVETH, and that he shall STAND at the latter day UPON THE EARTH:

========================

Now,we are quite confident from our Bible that God the Father will NOT stand upon the earth at the latter day, but God the Son WILL!

And we know WHO the REDEEMER is, too, don't we?

• Gal. 3:13 CHRIST HATH REDEEMED US from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

• Gal. 4:4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his SON, made of a woman, made under the law, 5 TO REDEEM them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.

• Titus 2:13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious APPEARING of the GREAT GOD AND OUR SAVIOUR JESUS CHRIST; 14 Who gave himself for us, that HE MIGHT REDEEM US from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

• 1Pet. 1:18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not REDEEMED with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;19 But WITHE THE PRECIOUS BLOOD OF CHRIST, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:

• Rev. 5:9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for THOU WAST SLAIN. AND HAST REDEEMED US TO GOD BY THY BLOOD...
-------------------------

IS THE REDEEMER MENTIONED ANY WHERE ELSE IN THE OT? Of course!

• Psa. 78:35 And they remembered that GOD WAS THEIR ROCK, and the high God their REDEEMER.

OK, WHO IS THE ROCK??

• 1Cor. 10:4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual ROCK that followed them: and THAT ROCK WAS CHRIST.

So there is God, the Rock (Jesus Christ) in the OT!

----------------------

Another OT verse:

• Is. 44:6 Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, **and his REDEEMER the LORD of hosts**; I AM THE FIRST, AND I AM THE LAST; and beside me there is no God. ... 24 Thus saith the LORD, THY REDEEMER, and he that FORMED THEE from the womb, I am the LORD that MAKETH ALL THINGS; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;

Do you see a DIFFERENTIATION between the LORD the king of Israel and HIS REDEEMER the LORD of hosts??? That must be Jesus Christ again! After all, Jesus Christ IS THE FIRST AND LAST, and THE CREATOR.

• Rev. 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which PIERCED HIM: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen. ... 11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, THE FIRST AND THE LAST: ... 17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I AM THE FIRST AND THE LAST:

• Rev. 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, THE FIRST AND THE LAST .... 16 I JESUS have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.

==================

Can you not now see that Gen. 1:26 MUST have included God the Son since He is declared THE CREATOR of **ALL THINGS** throughout the NT. You've seen those verses several times already, so I won't bore you with them again.

DispensationalJim
Great post DJ
Although I disagree on some points Jesus is throughout the OT

[Mathius]

I support you, MyServant, in this discussion of angels. And I think it is great that your "opponents" used Job to prove that there were angels in Gen. 1:26-27 because guess who else is in Job!

Job 19:25 For I know that my REDEEMER LIVETH, and that he shall STAND at the latter day UPON THE EARTH:

DispensationalJim

New American Standard Bible (NASB)

Passage Job 19:20-27:

20"My bone clings to my skin and my flesh,
And I have escaped only by the skin of my teeth.
21"Pity me, pity me, O you my friends,
For the hand of God has struck me.
22"Why do you persecute me as God does,
And are not satisfied with my flesh?

Job Says, "My Redeemer Lives"

23"Oh that my words were written!
Oh that they were inscribed in a book!
24"That with an iron stylus and lead
They were engraved in the rock forever!
25"As for me, I know that my Redeemer lives,
And at the last He will take His stand on the earth.
26"Even after my skin is destroyed,
Yet from my flesh I shall see God;
27Whom I myself shall behold,
And whom my eyes will see and not another.
My heart faints within me!

His redeemer could be anyone from Buhhda to the 12th Ihmam. Just becuase Jesus is your redeemer does not mean that Jesus is also Job's redeemer.

[Mathius]

Genesis
Chapter 1
1
In the beginning, when God created the heavens and the earth,
2
the earth was a formless wasteland, and darkness covered the abyss, while a mighty wind swept over the waters.
3
Then God said, "Let there be light," and there was light.
4
God saw how good the light was. God then separated the light from the darkness.
5
God called the light "day," and the darkness he called "night." Thus evening came, and morning followed--the first day.
6
Then God said, "Let there be a dome in the middle of the waters, to separate one body of water from the other." And so it happened:
7
God made the dome, and it separated the water above the dome from the water below it.
8
God called the dome "the sky." Evening came, and morning followed--the second day.
9
Then God said, "Let the water under the sky be gathered into a single basin, so that the dry land may appear." And so it happened: the water under the sky was gathered into its basin, and the dry land appeared.
10
God called the dry land "the earth," and the basin of the water he called "the sea." God saw how good it was.
11
Then God said, "Let the earth bring forth vegetation: every kind of plant that bears seed and every kind of fruit tree on earth that bears fruit with its seed in it." And so it happened:
12
the earth brought forth every kind of plant that bears seed and every kind of fruit tree on earth that bears fruit with its seed in it. God saw how good it was.
13
Evening came, and morning followed--the third day.
14
Then God said: "Let there be lights in the dome of the sky, to separate day from night. Let them mark the fixed times, the days and the years,
15
and serve as luminaries in the dome of the sky, to shed light upon the earth." And so it happened:
16
God made the two great lights, the greater one to govern the day, and the lesser one to govern the night; and he made the stars.
17
God set them in the dome of the sky, to shed light upon the earth,
18
to govern the day and the night, and to separate the light from the darkness. God saw how good it was.
19
Evening came, and morning followed--the fourth day.
20
Then God said, "Let the water teem with an abundance of living creatures, and on the earth let birds fly beneath the dome of the sky." And so it happened:
21
God created the great sea monsters and all kinds of swimming creatures with which the water teems, and all kinds of winged birds. God saw how good it was,
22
and God blessed them, saying, "Be fertile, multiply, and fill the water of the seas; and let the birds multiply on the earth."
23
Evening came, and morning followed--the fifth day.
24
Then God said, "Let the earth bring forth all kinds of living creatures: cattle, creeping things, and wild animals of all kinds." And so it happened:
25
God made all kinds of wild animals, all kinds of cattle, and all kinds of creeping things of the earth. God saw how good it was.
26
Then God said: "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness. Let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, the birds of the air, and the cattle, and over all the wild animals and all the creatures that crawl on the ground."
27
God created man in his image; in the divine image he created him; male and female he created them.
28
God blessed them, saying: "Be fertile and multiply; fill the earth and subdue it. Have dominion over the fish of the sea, the birds of the air, and all the living things that move on the earth."
29
God also said: "See, I give you every seed-bearing plant all over the earth and every tree that has seed-bearing fruit on it to be your food;
30
and to all the animals of the land, all the birds of the air, and all the living creatures that crawl on the ground, I give all the green plants for food." And so it happened.
31
God looked at everything he had made, and he found it very good. Evening came, and morning followed--the sixth day.




Ok by using the first chapter only who is "us"?

[Harmonious]

What was required before you could enter?
Being Tahor. There were all kinds of reasons to visit the Temple. Or the Tabernacle, if you like. Some people came to pray. Some people wanted to learn from the Elders in the Sanhedrin. Some people wanted to hear the Levi'im sing. Some people had questions to ask the Cohen.

Not every person who entered the Temple had a sacrifice to bring.

[Harmonious]

So there was no need for a blood sacrifice before entering the tent?

Nope.

[Harmonious]

Yep. She ended it and was wrong, IMO since v 27 says man was created in the image of God. It does not say in God's and the angels image. Big difference. That is why you read the verse. But you can agree with her and be wrong.

Or we can agree with YOU and be wrong. We all have the right to be wrong, and I'm convinced that YOU are in the wrong.

[Harmonious]

You guys are certainly persistent, and that is mostly a good thing IMHO.

Since Angry has teamed up with Poison to show us the errors of our faith, I thought I would share a few quotes from some Christian Jews. Maybe we can at least show that not all Jews have rejected Jesus as Messiah and as God the Son.Eh. "Christian Jews" make me crazy, because they were probably born Jews, but don't think like Jews anymore.

But I'll see what I can do with this.
--------------------------------

This is a brief excerpt from an article entitled "The Genealogy of the Messiah"
by Arnold G. Fruchtenbaum

"Two things may be noted by way of conclusion. First, many rabbinic objections to the messiahship of Jesus are based on his genealogy. The argument goes, "Since Jesus was not a descendant of David through his father, he cannot be Messiah and King." But the Messiah was supposed to be different. No he wasn't. He was supposed to be a descenant from King David, as naturally as David was the son of Jesse. As early as Genesis 3:15, it was proposed that the Messiah would be reckoned after the "seed of the woman," although this went contrary to the biblical norm. It just goes to show that as Biblically early as Genesis 3:15, the concept of women having eggs, or "women's seed" is being brought up. There is nothing supernatural about this.The necessity for this exception to the rule became apparent when Isaiah 7:14 prophesied that the Messiah would be born of a virgin: "Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign: Behold, a virgin will be with child and bear a son, and she will call his name Immanuel."Which is a mistranslation. There IS not virgin in Isaiah 7:14. She is simply a "young woman." Whereas all others receive their humanity from both father and mother, the Messiah would receive his humanity entirely from his mother. Whereas Jewish nationality and tribal identity were normally determined by the father, with the Messiah it would be different.:rolleyes: This is not Jewish in origin. His Christianity is showing. Since he was to have no human father, his nationality and his tribal identity would come entirely from his mother.Nope. It would just mean that the child would be a bastard with NO tribe. True, this is contrary to the norm, but so is a virgin birth. With the Messiah, things would be different. This just goes to show that the author of this article doesn't understand Jewish law. But that's not uncommon. Many people ARE ignorant of Jewish law.

In addition, these genealogies present a fourfold portrait of the messianic person through four titles. In Matthew 1:1 he is called the Son of David and the Son of Abraham. In Luke 3:38 he is called the Son of Adam and the Son of God. As the Son of David, it means that Jesus is king. As the Son of Abraham, it means that Jesus is a Jew. As the Son of Adam, it means that Jesus is a man. As the Son of God, it means that Jesus is God. This fourfold portrait of the messianic person as presented by the genealogies is that of the Jewish God-Man King. Could the Messiah be anyone less?"Yup. The Messiah is going to be like Moses - a man simply born from a man and a woman. No more, no less. The only difference is that Moses was from the tribe of Levi. The Messiah will be from the tribe of Judah.

============================

I have oodles more, but I would appreciate some response from Poison (and Harmonious, also, if possible) on this one before I post some more.

Thanks,

DispensationalJim
No problem, love. Just a head's up? Just because their "Jewish" doesn't mean that they have a blessed clue about Jewish law and philosophy.

[Harmonious]

There were sacrificial requirments under law though, as they were part of the covenant and covered in the law code.
True, but there is far more involved in the Jewish covenant than sacrifices.

[Harmonious]

In this instance it doesn't but how does it help your cause? If anything the 2 beings are different and not one in the same.

There aren't two beings. There is God. And there is "how God is felt." It is all God, and there are no separate beings, personalities, natures, or whatever being mentioned here.

[Harmonious]

Perhaps it is you my friend. Have you ever thought of that? Seems everyone must agree with your POV. Why not try to be open minded. It is an opinion with no substance that angels are in God's image. The verses we are looking at do not talk of angels. Do not talk of anyone other than God and the Holy Spirit and man. I respect your opinion and that of your rabbis. However it is possible that you are both incorrect in your assertions. No, not really. All I am doing is looking at scripture not going by opinion. Can the same be said of you?You are going by opinion. There is nothing that says that angels WEREN'T created in the image of God.

But you see, all of that is moot. A proper understanding of the Torah requires the Oral Tradition that goes with it. If you reject the Oral Tradition, that is your business. But don't pretend to understand the whole situation without the background provided by God in the Oral Tradition.

[Harmonious]

Nice to see tulsatech joining in.

I have posted dozens of verses from the OT which IMHO show Jesus to be alive and well all the way back to the creation. Those who disagree have used other translations (I am KJV all the way) and many definitions, etc. to attempt to change the emphasis of those verses.

I just posted many verses from the NT showing the Holy Spirit to be a Person, but Angry no longer accepts the NT, so too bad, Angry. I stated a few pages back that the NT has probably changed more lives for the good than all the rest of the books ever written, but apparently Angry has never known that "life-changing" experience of trusting wholly in the Savior, Jesus Christ. Again, too bad, Angry. No wonder you are angry.

And, regarding the Holy Spirit existing in the OT, I say, "Of course He existed in the OT!" He was there in Genesis 1 and was there all the way through to Rev. 22. In the OT He was representing The Father as He dealt with His chosen people, Israel, but in the NT, He became the "Indweller" of the believer in Christ. We who have trusted in Christ have become "temples" of God.

I will post some verses later that show that God dwells in our lives through the Holy Spirit and through Jesus Christ. But for now, have you considered these as trinitarian verses?

• Is. 6:3 And one cried unto another, and said, Holy, holy, holy, is the LORD of hosts: the whole earth is full of his glory.

compared with

• Rev. 4:8 And the four beasts had each of them six wings about him; and they were full of eyes within: and they rest not day and night, saying, Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, which was, and is, and IS TO COME.


Notice there are THREE HOLIES? Is that significant??
And which Lord God Almighty "is to come"?? I believe that the Father will be remaining in Heaven while the Son will be returning to the earth for HIS KINGDOM.

Time's up!

DJim
Interesting way to look at it. But no, you are only reading a trinity into where it isn't.

Actually, the Aramaic translation explains why there are three Holies.

The Hebrew translates to:
And one [angel] will call another and say: "Holy, holy, holy is Hashem, Master of Legions, the whole world is filled with His glory."

Targum Yonatan translates and commentates the Hebrew into Aramaic thus:
And they receive permission from one another and say: "Holy is the most exalted heaven, the abode of His Presence; holy on earth, product of His strenght; holy forever and ever is Hashem, Master of Legions - the entire world is filled with the radiance of His glory."

No three personalities, but a perfectly valid (and Jewish) way of understanding the three Holies.

[oldtimer]

Should You Believe in the Trinity?

Is It Clearly a Bible Teaching?

.
.
.
.

Thus, the testimony of the Bible and of history makes clear that the Trinity was unknown throughout Biblical times and for several centuries thereafter.Comments?You have to choose, the Bible or the Nicene Creed. They contradict each other. I choose the Bible.

[Mathius]

There aren't two beings. There is God. And there is "how God is felt." It is all God, and there are no separate beings, personalities, natures, or whatever being mentioned here.

Originally Posted by Mathius
In this instance it doesn't but how does it help your cause? If anything the 2 beings are different and not one in the same.

If is a big two letter word. As I stated later it was wind and not a being.

[Harmonious]

If is a big two letter word. As I stated later it was wind and not a being.

That works.

[DispensationalJim]

Hello again, Harmonious.

I asked Poison about the various texts from which the OT is available today, but have not yet seen a response from him. I have heard much about the Septuagint and the Masoretic, but there are also apparently other "versions" by which the Jewish believers arrive at their doctrines and traditions. You just mentioned the Aramaic, too.

So which do you consider the most accurate? Is there a way to know what the original words were in the actual Hebrew? Do the Orthodox Jews use the same OT as the Reform Jews, etc.?

What is YOUR criteria for determining exactly what God says in the OT?

I hope you see where I'm going. The NT manuscripts are debated often and heatedly as to which is/are the most accurate and/or dependable. Is the OT in the same "boat"? Since I have from my own studies determined some time ago that the KJV is the one for me, I have serious problems with those who make such statements as: "This verse is more correctly translated in this other version..., etc., etc." I feel that it renders God irrelative and makes the one doing the "translating decisions" a replacement for God. Can you see why I would have a problem with that?

It is late, so that's it for tonight.

Thanks,

DJim

[Harmonious]

Hello again, Harmonious.

I asked Poison about the various texts from which the OT is available today, but have not yet seen a response from him. I have heard much about the Septuagint and the Masoretic, but there are also apparently other "versions" by which the Jewish believers arrive at their doctrines and traditions. You just mentioned the Aramaic, too.

So which do you consider the most accurate? Is there a way to know what the original words were in the actual Hebrew? Do the Orthodox Jews use the same OT as the Reform Jews, etc.?The thing you need to know is that Jews use the actual Hebrew.

There are lots of translations out there, and some are more accurate than others, but the meaning is exactly the same. It is more of a guide to understand the Hebrew, as opposed to being an end in itself.

I heard all about the Masora, and how there were different versions. Well, that's not as impressive as it might sound. They found that there were a couple of differences in the Hebrew. By SIX LETTERS. Otherwise, the world over, all Hebrew scrolls have the exact same Hebrew as every other scroll.

Every Hebrew Genesis is going to be the exact same copy as every other Genesis. And it doesn't matter whether the Torah scroll is from Israel, Hungary, Ireland, or South Africa. The Torah scroll will be exactly the same.

I honestly don't know what Reform Jews do or use. I DO know that Orthodox Jews use lots of translations. But as I said before, the English is not an end to itself, but a guide to better understand the Hebrew.
What is YOUR criteria for determining exactly what God says in the OT?The Oral Law.

I usually like what Rashi has to say, but other commentators do nice jobs explaining things as well.

What exactly is meant in the OT is expressed in the Oral Tradition. That is how I know exactly what God says in the OT.

I hope you see where I'm going. The NT manuscripts are debated often and heatedly as to which is/are the most accurate and/or dependable. Is the OT in the same "boat"?Nope.

Whether I use an Artscroll, or a Judaica Press, or a Soncino, or a Living Torah, it doesn't matter. The focus is all about the Hebrew, and understanding the Hebrew the way the sages of old understood the Hebrew.

The more well educated the Jew, the better he or she will be familiar with the actual Hebrew and the commentaries on the Hebrew. Since I have from my own studies determined some time ago that the KJV is the one for me, I have serious problems with those who make such statements as: "This verse is more correctly translated in this other version..., etc., etc." I feel that it renders God irrelative and makes the one doing the "translating decisions" a replacement for God. Can you see why I would have a problem with that?I'm sorry if it offends you, but you have to understand something.

The KJV isn't a translation from Hebrew to English. It is a translation from Hebrew to Greek to Latin to English. Lots got lost in the transmission through the various translations.

God isn't relative. God's words are in Hebrew, and the intent is captured in the Oral Law. All of that is missing in the KJV. I'm sorry if you find that upsetting, but of all the translations that I have looked at, the KJV is one of the worst translations. And that is on the words that I know in Hebrew translations on my own.

There are virgins where the Hebrew doesn't allow for a virgin. There are piercings where there should be lions. Those are only two mistranslations from the Hebrew where I know the actual words and their direct translations. I don't need the help of a translation to know what the proper translation of such words are. My own education in Hebrew is enough to get me through these problems.

It is late, so that's it for tonight.

Thanks,

DJim

Have a good night, Jim.

[HisServant]

New American Standard Bible (NASB)

Passage Job 19:20-27:

20"My bone clings to my skin and my flesh,
And I have escaped only by the skin of my teeth.
21"Pity me, pity me, O you my friends,
For the hand of God has struck me.
22"Why do you persecute me as God does,
And are not satisfied with my flesh?

Job Says, "My Redeemer Lives"

23"Oh that my words were written!
Oh that they were inscribed in a book!
24"That with an iron stylus and lead
They were engraved in the rock forever!
25"As for me, I know that my Redeemer lives,
And at the last He will take His stand on the earth.
26"Even after my skin is destroyed,
Yet from my flesh I shall see God;
27Whom I myself shall behold,
And whom my eyes will see and not another.
My heart faints within me!

His redeemer could be anyone from Buhhda to the 12th Ihmam. Just becuase Jesus is your redeemer does not mean that Jesus is also Job's redeemer.

Any particular reason you only choose to quote from the NASB? IMO it is not the best of translation.

[HisServant]

Genesis
Chapter 1
1
In the beginning, when God created the heavens and the earth,
2
the earth was a formless wasteland, and darkness covered the abyss, while a mighty wind swept over the waters.
3
Then God said, "Let there be light," and there was light.
4
God saw how good the light was. God then separated the light from the darkness.
5
God called the light "day," and the darkness he called "night." Thus evening came, and morning followed--the first day.
6
Then God said, "Let there be a dome in the middle of the waters, to separate one body of water from the other." And so it happened:
7
God made the dome, and it separated the water above the dome from the water below it.
8
God called the dome "the sky." Evening came, and morning followed--the second day.
9
Then God said, "Let the water under the sky be gathered into a single basin, so that the dry land may appear." And so it happened: the water under the sky was gathered into its basin, and the dry land appeared.
10
God called the dry land "the earth," and the basin of the water he called "the sea." God saw how good it was.
11
Then God said, "Let the earth bring forth vegetation: every kind of plant that bears seed and every kind of fruit tree on earth that bears fruit with its seed in it." And so it happened:
12
the earth brought forth every kind of plant that bears seed and every kind of fruit tree on earth that bears fruit with its seed in it. God saw how good it was.
13
Evening came, and morning followed--the third day.
14
Then God said: "Let there be lights in the dome of the sky, to separate day from night. Let them mark the fixed times, the days and the years,
15
and serve as luminaries in the dome of the sky, to shed light upon the earth." And so it happened:
16
God made the two great lights, the greater one to govern the day, and the lesser one to govern the night; and he made the stars.
17
God set them in the dome of the sky, to shed light upon the earth,
18
to govern the day and the night, and to separate the light from the darkness. God saw how good it was.
19
Evening came, and morning followed--the fourth day.
20
Then God said, "Let the water teem with an abundance of living creatures, and on the earth let birds fly beneath the dome of the sky." And so it happened:
21
God created the great sea monsters and all kinds of swimming creatures with which the water teems, and all kinds of winged birds. God saw how good it was,
22
and God blessed them, saying, "Be fertile, multiply, and fill the water of the seas; and let the birds multiply on the earth."
23
Evening came, and morning followed--the fifth day.
24
Then God said, "Let the earth bring forth all kinds of living creatures: cattle, creeping things, and wild animals of all kinds." And so it happened:
25
God made all kinds of wild animals, all kinds of cattle, and all kinds of creeping things of the earth. God saw how good it was.
26
Then God said: "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness. Let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, the birds of the air, and the cattle, and over all the wild animals and all the creatures that crawl on the ground."
27
God created man in his image; in the divine image he created him; male and female he created them.
28
God blessed them, saying: "Be fertile and multiply; fill the earth and subdue it. Have dominion over the fish of the sea, the birds of the air, and all the living things that move on the earth."
29
God also said: "See, I give you every seed-bearing plant all over the earth and every tree that has seed-bearing fruit on it to be your food;
30
and to all the animals of the land, all the birds of the air, and all the living creatures that crawl on the ground, I give all the green plants for food." And so it happened.
31
God looked at everything he had made, and he found it very good. Evening came, and morning followed--the sixth day.




Ok by using the first chapter only who is "us"?

The divine image. Which is not angels. God and The Spirit of God.

[HisServant]

Being Tahor. There were all kinds of reasons to visit the Temple. Or the Tabernacle, if you like. Some people came to pray. Some people wanted to learn from the Elders in the Sanhedrin. Some people wanted to hear the Levi'im sing. Some people had questions to ask the Cohen.

Not every person who entered the Temple had a sacrifice to bring.

So without a sacrifice they could enter?

[HisServant]

Or we can agree with YOU and be wrong. We all have the right to be wrong, and I'm convinced that YOU are in the wrong.

And I agree with what the Bible says. God created man in HIS image in HIS likeness. Let "US" make man in our image. Cannot get any clearer than that unless you have an agenda.

[Harmonious]

So without a sacrifice they could enter?
Yup.

[Harmonious]

And I agree with what the Bible says. God created man in HIS image in HIS likeness. Let "US" make man in our image. Cannot get any clearer than that unless you have an agenda.

:shrug:

Not that it matters. But I'll tell you that if you honestly believe that God isn't physical (founding principle of faith), and you honestly believe that God is ONE (founding principle of faith), then there is no way that these words can be literal.

Jews believed in this passage long before Jesus was born. And God gave the Jews the Oral Tradition to understand the passage.

If you say that it means that the Jews have an agenda, go on believing that.

But as I said before, Jews knew how to learn and understand this passage long before there was a Jesus, and we pretty much came to the same conclusion: God was talking to the angels to teach people a lesson in humility.

Just because Jesus was born doesn't change the way that Jews learned this particular passage, just because YOU have an agenda that you hope to prove with a misunderstanding of a text that was learned for over a thousand years before anyone believed in a trinity (involving the God of Israel).

[HisServant]

:shrug:

Not that it matters. But I'll tell you that if you honestly believe that God isn't physical (founding principle of faith), and you honestly believe that God is ONE (founding principle of faith), then there is no way that these words can be literal.

Jews believed in this passage long before Jesus was born. And God gave the Jews the Oral Tradition to understand the passage.

If you say that it means that the Jews have an agenda, go on believing that.

But as I said before, Jews knew how to learn and understand this passage long before there was a Jesus, and we pretty much came to the same conclusion: God was talking to the angels to teach people a lesson in humility.

Just because Jesus was born doesn't change the way that Jews learned this particular passage, just because YOU have an agenda that you hope to prove with a misunderstanding of a text that was learned for over a thousand years before anyone believed in a trinity (involving the God of Israel).

My only agenda is to understand what God is saying. With all due respect to your tradition I just do not see how that is the conclusion one comes to based on what the text says. It has nothing to do with Jesus. I did not even mention Him. At this point I am just looking at what the text says. So if you want to believe your oral traditions are correct I have no problem with that. I will stay with my position since that is what the scripture says. God created man in His image in His likeness. That to me does not imply God has a form or a body. Also it does not say to me the "us" is angels. To me it says God was the only person involved no one else. So the "us" clearly is not Angels, clearly Job supports that as well. We can agree to disagree. I will side with scripture and you side with oral tradition.

[Harmonious]

Oral tradition explains scripture. So, in effect, I am also siding with scripture.

You really can't understand the scripture without the Oral Tradition.

[HisServant]

Oral tradition explains scripture. So, in effect, I am also siding with scripture.

You really can't understand the scripture without the Oral Tradition.

OK.

God says I created. I can't understand that without someone telling me what that means got it.

God says do A, B, C. I can't understand that without someone telling me what that means got it.

God says I created man in my image. I can't understand that without someone telling me what that means got it.

God says to Moses take your sandal off for you are standing on Holy Ground. Moses says hold on let me go find out what the oral tradition is so I will know what you are saying because that is the only way we can understand you. :rolleyes:

[Harmonious]

OK.


God says do A, B, C. I can't understand that without someone telling me what that means got it.


Actually, you can't.

In the decalogues, it says to keep the Sabbath.

Okay. What on earth does that mean? It doesn't say in the text of Exodus and Deuteronomy.

There are tons and tons of laws and things that are only briefly mentioned in the Pentatuach. But what are the ramifications? Are there any shades of gray? What if it was an accident?

None of this is covered in the text of the Penatuach. It is more than sufficiently covered in the Oral Law.

Oh, and while we're at it... Why do we only find out about Abraham when he was 85? Surely he had a life before God told him to leave his father's house.

And why would God bother to choose to make promises to a guy who stole his brother's blessing? That's a pretty big question. Do you mean to say that when you read that in Genesis you think you are getting the whole story?

No, when you read the text of Tanach, you are only getting part of the story, whether you are reading stories or law.

So, in effect, no, you can't know what is going on without someone telling you.

[HisServant]

Actually, you can't.

In the decalogues, it says to keep the Sabbath.

Okay. What on earth does that mean? It doesn't say in the text of Exodus and Deuteronomy.

There are tons and tons of laws and things that are only briefly mentioned in the Pentatuach. But what are the ramifications? Are there any shades of gray? What if it was an accident?

None of this is covered in the text of the Penatuach. It is more than sufficiently covered in the Oral Law.

Oh, and while we're at it... Why do we only find out about Abraham when he was 85? Surely he had a life before God told him to leave his father's house.

And why would God bother to choose to make promises to a guy who stole his brother's blessing? That's a pretty big question. Do you mean to say that when you read that in Genesis you think you are getting the whole story?

No, when you read the text of Tanach, you are only getting part of the story, whether you are reading stories or law.

So, in effect, no, you can't know what is going on without someone telling you.

So that means you need an explaination for everything? I don't think so. I don't say that you never need an explaination, but certainly some passages are very clear. Don't eat from the tree. Very clear. Don't do this. very clear. I created man. very clear. Why God choose Jacob over Essau we can debate all day long. Can't we just agree that He did and leave it at that?
That God says remember the sabbath is not that difficult go back to when He first said it. Basically God said I have given you six days. I just want you to take one day out for me. To remember me. To fellowship with me without distractions. So forgive me if I sound as if I am discounting oral tradition that is not what I am getting at. This type of medium is hard to use to convey thoughts without getting long. I believe oral tradition can be helpful when things are not clear. But let me ask you this how do we know that what is being passed down as oral tradition is reliable? Was it treated much the same way as Scripure? I really don't know so I am asking and not trying to trap you. Thanks.

[Harmonious]

So that means you need an explaination for everything? Yup. Trust me - you have no idea. I don't say that you never need an explaination, but certainly some passages are very clear. Don't eat from the tree. Very clear.So you would think, right? I remember posting a 12 part lecture on the idea of what happened in the Garden of Eden. And it wasn't at all simple. Don't do this. very clear. You are joking, right? Do you think any system of law is as easy as "Don't do this. Very clear."

You know that Jacob Rising loves the holiday of Sukkot. Are you aware that there is not ONE commandment regarding Sukot that is at all straightforward? The entire holiday, from start to finish, is completely outlined in the Oral Law. Otherwise, the entire holiday is completely nonsensical.

Do this. Don't do this. Clear as mud, without serious explanation.I created man. very clear. If it is so clear, why on earth are the evolution debates raging? While it is "clear" from the text, why is there so much contraversy?

It isn't clear at all.

Why God choose Jacob over Essau we can debate all day long. Can't we just agree that He did and leave it at that?We can, but you do realize that is the easy way out, right?

Not that I need to debate it, but the whole How and Why thing is just not in the text, when it is covered over and over OUTSIDE the text.
That God says remember the sabbath is not that difficult go back to when He first said it. Basically God said I have given you six days. I just want you to take one day out for me. To remember me. To fellowship with me without distractions. Sounds good. And what on earth does that mean? If we don't do it, it carries the death penalty. I would want to be pretty darn sure I'm not doing something wrong. For that price, it BETTER come with an index, a glossary, and a full listing of details on what is going on.

There are so many laws that regulate what constitutes "work" on Shabbat that it would make your head spin. But it is what Orthodox Jews do every single week. God told us what to do in the Oral Law. Really. It makes a lot of sense, but only if you understand the details in the Oral Law.

So forgive me if I sound as if I am discounting oral tradition that is not what I am getting at. This type of medium is hard to use to convey thoughts without getting long.Not a problem. I believe oral tradition can be helpful when things are not clear. But let me ask you this how do we know that what is being passed down as oral tradition is reliable?We are exhorted to work under the idea that every Passover, we should look at it as if WE came out of Egypt. As such, it is very personal. And that coming out of Egypt was only perfected when the Jews received the Torah.

And it was a serious thing for Jews to get an education. It is a commandment for Jews to learn Torah.

Between the personalization of the commandments, and the education, and the following examples of parents and leaders, there wasn't much room for error.

I'm pretty sure that Jews today keep Shabbat the same way Jews did during Rabbi Akiva's day. Technology might be different, but the laws are exactly the same. Was it treated much the same way as Scripure? I really don't know so I am asking and not trying to trap you. Thanks.
It was kept oral, but other than that, it was treated with the same holiness as the scripture.

[Mathius]

Any particular reason you only choose to quote from the NASB? IMO it is not the best of translation.

No reason that is just what bible.com was setup for when I searched.

[Mathius]

The divine image. Which is not angels. God and The Spirit of God.

In the scripture where does it say spirit of God? Several Hebrew readers have told you that in the KJV it is a mistranslation in verse two.

[HisServant]

In the scripture where does it say spirit of God? Several Hebrew readers have told you that in the KJV it is a mistranslation in verse two.

KJV, NIV, ASV, GWT, BBE, YLT, etc all say the Spirit of God.

[Mathius]

KJV, NIV, ASV, GWT, BBE, YLT, etc all say the Spirit of God.

Several Hebrew readers have told you that it is a mistranslation in verse two.

[HisServant]

Several Hebrew readers have told you that it is a mistranslation in verse two.

and others have said it is not. So you can believe our Hebrew friends and that is fine. I will believe the others.

[Harmonious]

and others have said it is not. So you can believe our Hebrew friends and that is fine. I will believe the others.And the others were wrong, plain and simple.

Jews know the translation of our own scriptures, thank you very much.

[Harmonious]

KJV, NIV, ASV, GWT, BBE, YLT, etc all say the Spirit of God.And they're all wrong.

[HisServant]

And the others were wrong, plain and simple.

Jews know the translation of our own scriptures, thank you very much.

Others have been Jews as well.

[DRS]

Hi, Poison!

Do you have the original Hebrew text? I thought it was long gone, just as the original Greek NT manuscripts are gone.

Are you then a supporter of the Septuagint or the Masoretic text or some other text of the OT that presently exists?

Can you show some proof that you KNOW what the original Hebrew words were?

Thanks,

DJim


Are you seriously asking a Jew is they support a greek translation over a Hebrew translation?

[DRS]

KJV, NIV, ASV, GWT, BBE, YLT, etc all say the Spirit of God.


Now you know what is interesting the same word used in verse 2 is used in those other verses I posted and asked you to pick out the words. But you won't do that.

[HisServant]

Now you know what is interesting the same word used in verse 2 is used in those other verses I posted and asked you to pick out the words. But you won't do that.

They all say Spirit of God.

[DRS]

Nice to see tulsatech joining in.

I have posted dozens of verses from the OT which IMHO show Jesus to be alive and well all the way back to the creation. Those who disagree have used other translations (I am KJV all the way) and many definitions, etc. to attempt to change the emphasis of those verses.

I just posted many verses from the NT showing the Holy Spirit to be a Person, but Angry no longer accepts the NT, so too bad, Angry. I stated a few pages back that the NT has probably changed more lives for the good than all the rest of the books ever written, but apparently Angry has never known that "life-changing" experience of trusting wholly in the Savior, Jesus Christ. Again, too bad, Angry. No wonder you are angry.

And, regarding the Holy Spirit existing in the OT, I say, "Of course He existed in the OT!" He was there in Genesis 1 and was there all the way through to Rev. 22. In the OT He was representing The Father as He dealt with His chosen people, Israel, but in the NT, He became the "Indweller" of the believer in Christ. We who have trusted in Christ have become "temples" of God.

Big deal I posted scriptures showing the spirit was indwelling in the OT an people like Moses.

I will post some verses later that show that God dwells in our lives through the Holy Spirit and through Jesus Christ. But for now, have you considered these as trinitarian verses?

• Is. 6:3 And one cried unto another, and said, Holy, holy, holy, is the LORD of hosts: the whole earth is full of his glory.

compared with

• Rev. 4:8 And the four beasts had each of them six wings about him; and they were full of eyes within: and they rest not day and night, saying, Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, which was, and is, and IS TO COME.


Notice there are THREE HOLIES? Is that significant??
And which Lord God Almighty "is to come"?? I believe that the Father will be remaining in Heaven while the Son will be returning to the earth for HIS KINGDOM.

Time's up!

DJim

So Isaiah says Jehovah, and who gave the Revelation to Jesus God (Jehovah) so guess who is refered to in 4:8.

sorry not trinity proof text.

[DRS]

They all say Spirit of God.

Really I would like to see that proven by posting each scripture that I asked about.

And the translation used.

[Warrior4God]

Really I would like to see that proven by posting each scripture that I asked about.

And the translation used.

I would think that would be good to post

[DRS]

I doubt there will be a post to prove what Hisservant said

[Warrior4God]

I must say the only person who responds to most of the verses that I post about the trinity is D Jim and he usesthe KJV with all his responses and seems to come short of any proof in my opinion of for the doctrine that prior to 325ad never existed exept in the minds of a few.
Everyone else posts verses to place me on the defense instead of answering the question as there is no real answer to the fact that Jesus never once said he was God and in fact said very much the opposite.
Because he affirms, and without the least qualification, “My Father is greater than I,” John 14:28

Because he virtually denies that he is God, when he exclaims, “Why callest thou me Good? There is none good but one, that is God,” Matt 19:17.

If anyone honestly looks they see
John 4:23
God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in spirit and in truth.

Luke 24:39 (KJV)
Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

[DRS]

With the KJV the removal of God's name from the OT seems to be done to create confusion, when I look at something like Psalm 110:1 I just shake my head.

[Angryamerican]

I support you, MyServant, in this discussion of angels. And I think it is great that your "opponents" used Job to prove that there were angels in Gen. 1:26-27 because guess who else is in Job!

Job 19:25 For I know that my REDEEMER LIVETH, and that he shall STAND at the latter day UPON THE EARTH:

========================

Now,we are quite confident from our Bible that God the Father will NOT stand upon the earth at the latter day, but God the Son WILL!

And we know WHO the REDEEMER is, too, don't we?

• Gal. 3:13 CHRIST HATH REDEEMED US from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

• Gal. 4:4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his SON, made of a woman, made under the law, 5 TO REDEEM them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.

• Titus 2:13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious APPEARING of the GREAT GOD AND OUR SAVIOUR JESUS CHRIST; 14 Who gave himself for us, that HE MIGHT REDEEM US from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

• 1Pet. 1:18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not REDEEMED with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;19 But WITHE THE PRECIOUS BLOOD OF CHRIST, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:

• Rev. 5:9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for THOU WAST SLAIN. AND HAST REDEEMED US TO GOD BY THY BLOOD...
-------------------------

IS THE REDEEMER MENTIONED ANY WHERE ELSE IN THE OT? Of course!

• Psa. 78:35 And they remembered that GOD WAS THEIR ROCK, and the high God their REDEEMER.

OK, WHO IS THE ROCK??

• 1Cor. 10:4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual ROCK that followed them: and THAT ROCK WAS CHRIST.

So there is God, the Rock (Jesus Christ) in the OT!

----------------------

Another OT verse:

• Is. 44:6 Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, **and his REDEEMER the LORD of hosts**; I AM THE FIRST, AND I AM THE LAST; and beside me there is no God. ... 24 Thus saith the LORD, THY REDEEMER, and he that FORMED THEE from the womb, I am the LORD that MAKETH ALL THINGS; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;

Do you see a DIFFERENTIATION between the LORD the king of Israel and HIS REDEEMER the LORD of hosts??? That must be Jesus Christ again! After all, Jesus Christ IS THE FIRST AND LAST, and THE CREATOR.

• Rev. 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which PIERCED HIM: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen. ... 11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, THE FIRST AND THE LAST: ... 17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I AM THE FIRST AND THE LAST:

• Rev. 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, THE FIRST AND THE LAST .... 16 I JESUS have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.

==================

Can you not now see that Gen. 1:26 MUST have included God the Son since He is declared THE CREATOR of **ALL THINGS** throughout the NT. You've seen those verses several times already, so I won't bore you with them again.

DispensationalJim

The redeemer is God alone not Christ unless you believe in the NT.

That just proves what the NT has done to the OT.

[DRS]

The redeemer is God alone not Christ unless you believe in the NT.

That just proves what the NT has done to the OT.

The NT does not remove Jehovah as the redeemer, it was Jehovah that sent Jesus, it is Jehovah that has to apply the shed blood of Christ to mankind and fix the defect that causes sin and death.

[Angryamerican]

Thanks DJ. I find it amazing people say they seek the truth. Then they proceed to bring up arguments against thing that are not even being discussed. All I did was say lets start from the Begining, Genesis. Let's do a Bible Study. No preconcieved notions. Lets just look at the verses together and see what they tell us. Very simple 4 verses. None of them even mentions angels. How in the world did we get JOB?:doh: Then I said OK lets look at your verse. Guess what it mentions angels. It says they rejoice at what God has done. So all they did was witness what God did. They had no part in it. And yet as clear as that is that is not enough to convince them that angels have no part in man being created. :doh:


It was proven the angels were with God when he was creating.

He was speaking to someone.

[Angryamerican]

Great post DJ
Although I disagree on some points Jesus is throughout the OT

Respectfully no one has shown Jesus in the OT.

They take a scripture from the OT that pertains to God and spin it with the NT.

[DRS]

Respectfully no one has shown Jesus in the OT.

They take a scripture from the OT that pertains to God and spin it with the NT.

I have a question what about a scripture that Jesus takes and applies to himself?

Like for instance in Matthew Jesus quotes Psalm 110:1

[Angryamerican]

Yup. Trust me - you have no idea.So you would think, right? I remember posting a 12 part lecture on the idea of what happened in the Garden of Eden. And it wasn't at all simple.You are joking, right? Do you think any system of law is as easy as "Don't do this. Very clear."

You know that Jacob Rising loves the holiday of Sukkot. Are you aware that there is not ONE commandment regarding Sukot that is at all straightforward? The entire holiday, from start to finish, is completely outlined in the Oral Law. Otherwise, the entire holiday is completely nonsensical.

Do this. Don't do this. Clear as mud, without serious explanation. If it is so clear, why on earth are the evolution debates raging? While it is "clear" from the text, why is there so much contraversy?

It isn't clear at all.

We can, but you do realize that is the easy way out, right?

Not that I need to debate it, but the whole How and Why thing is just not in the text, when it is covered over and over OUTSIDE the text.
Sounds good. And what on earth does that mean? If we don't do it, it carries the death penalty. I would want to be pretty darn sure I'm not doing something wrong. For that price, it BETTER come with an index, a glossary, and a full listing of details on what is going on.

There are so many laws that regulate what constitutes "work" on Shabbat that it would make your head spin. But it is what Orthodox Jews do every single week. God told us what to do in the Oral Law. Really. It makes a lot of sense, but only if you understand the details in the Oral Law.

Not a problem.We are exhorted to work under the idea that every Passover, we should look at it as if WE came out of Egypt. As such, it is very personal. And that coming out of Egypt was only perfected when the Jews received the Torah.

And it was a serious thing for Jews to get an education. It is a commandment for Jews to learn Torah.

Between the personalization of the commandments, and the education, and the following examples of parents and leaders, there wasn't much room for error.

I'm pretty sure that Jews today keep Shabbat the same way Jews did during Rabbi Akiva's day. Technology might be different, but the laws are exactly the same.
It was kept oral, but other than that, it was treated with the same holiness as the scripture.

Did you notice how they totally ignored my little research on the holy spirit supposedly the third person of the trinity?

Did you notice they say Jesus is God but not the HOLY SPIRIT?

Why do they not try to say the holy spirit is Jesus if he is God?

[Angryamerican]

and others have said it is not. So you can believe our Hebrew friends and that is fine. I will believe the others.

Yeah if you want to know something about Hebrew ask someone who speaks greek.:)) :)) :))

[Angryamerican]

I have a question what about a scripture that Jesus takes and applies to himself?

Like for instance in Matthew Jesus quotes Psalm 110:1

Jesus probably read the OT when he was young correct?

[Angryamerican]

I have a question what about a scripture that Jesus takes and applies to himself?

Like for instance in Matthew Jesus quotes Psalm 110:1

Well do we know for sure who wrote that verse?

I happen to agree with poison and Harmonious, that was someone writing about David.

[DRS]

Jesus probably read the OT when he was young correct?

So your assertation then is that Jesus was not the promised messiah?

[Angryamerican]

The NT does not remove Jehovah as the redeemer, it was Jehovah that sent Jesus, it is Jehovah that has to apply the shed blood of Christ to mankind and fix the defect that causes sin and death.

By saying Jesus is the redeemer it does.

[Angryamerican]

So your assertation then is that Jesus was not the promised messiah?

Yes that is what i'm saying, and have been for a while now.

[DRS]

By saying Jesus is the redeemer it does.

Jesus surely played a part as be the willing sacrifice, but everything he did was not for his own glory.

It was not unlike God to use others and give them special positions, there are a lot of similarities between Jesus and Moses.

[DRS]

Yes that is what i'm saying, and have been for a while now.

So how do you account for all the prophecies he fulfilled?

[Mikko]

Yeah if you want to know something about Hebrew ask someone who speaks greek.:)) :)) :))

Yes, that is why, living in a predominately Spanish-speaking area, I always have my German dictionary handy.

[Angryamerican]

Jesus surely played a part as be the willing sacrifice, but everything he did was not for his own glory.

It was not unlike God to use others and give them special positions, there are a lot of similarities between Jesus and Moses.

The thing DRS, The NT totally broken the covenant that God made with Israel and it is very clear that God made that covenant to last forever.

I think we all can agree what forever means.

[DRS]

The thing DRS, The NT totally broken the covenant that God made with Israel and it is very clear that God made that covenant to last forever.

I think we all can agree what forever means.

The covenant was stipulations in it and God did not break the covenant with those who were faithful they still recieve their reward.

Did you ever read Deuteronomy 28?

[Angryamerican]

So how do you account for all the prophecies he fulfilled?

Well after looking at the requirements of the messiah i take a Jewish outlook on this matter.

He didn't fulfill them all which was required of the messiah.


The biggy was not gathering all JEWS from the four corners of the earth.


Sorry there is just to much that the NT tried changing.

The NT God went from love and just to burning and tormenting people forever.

[DRS]

Well after looking at the requirements of the messiah i take a Jewish outlook on this matter.

He didn't fulfill them all which was required of the messiah.


The biggy was not gathering all JEWS from the four corners of the earth.


Sorry there is just to much that the NT tried changing.

The NT God went from love and just to burning and tormenting people forever.

Really where does it show that God's tortures anyone?

The NT just shows he destroys people who rebel, the same as was done in the OT.

The prophecy was he would gather in exiles, there is nothing that anyone sent was to do what the Jews wanted it was what God wanted.

Doing what man wanted got Moeses into troubles at time.

[Angryamerican]

The covenant was stipulations in it and God did not break the covenant with those who were faithful they still recieve their reward.

Did you ever read Deuteronomy 28?

I am in a hurry right now, just got back home from out of town business. Need to get in the shower but i will read it and get back to you.

[Angryamerican]

Really where does it show that God's tortures anyone?

The NT just shows he destroys people who rebel, the same as was done in the OT.

Well i never believed the whole lake of fire thing. But that is another view that i have a problem with that came from a lot in Christianity.

But mostly the more i read the OT the less i trust the NT.

[DRS]

I am in a hurry right now, just got back home from out of town business. Need to get in the shower but i will read it and get back to you.

The beginning starts with promises of good for obedience, but this part has seen fullfillment from 70 CE on.

49 “Jehovah will raise up against you a nation far away, from the end of the earth, just as an eagle pounces, a nation whose tongue you will not understand, 50 a nation fierce in countenance, who will not be partial to an old man or show favor to a young man. 51 And they will certainly eat the fruit of your domestic animals and the fruitage of your ground until you have been annihilated, and they will let no grain, new wine or oil, no young of your cattle or progeny of your flock, remain for you until they have destroyed you. 52 And they will indeed besiege you within all your gates until your high and fortified walls in which you are trusting fall in all your land, yes, they will certainly besiege you within all your gates in all your land, which Jehovah your God has given you. 53 Then you will have to eat the fruit of your belly, the flesh of your sons and your daughters, whom Jehovah your God has given you, because of the tightness and stress with which your enemy will hem you in.

54 “As for the very delicate and dainty man among you, his eye will be evil-inclined toward his brother and his cherished wife and the remainder of his sons whom he has remaining, 55 so as not to give one of them any of the flesh of his sons that he will eat, because he has nothing at all remaining to him because of the tightness and stress with which your enemy will hem you in within all your gates. 56 As for the delicate and dainty woman among you who never attempted to set the sole of her foot upon the earth for being of dainty habit and for delicateness, her eye will be evil-inclined toward her cherished husband and her son and her daughter, 57 even toward her afterbirth that comes out from between her legs and toward her sons whom she proceeded to bear, because she will eat them in secrecy for the want of everything because of the tightness and stress with which your enemy will hem you in within your gates.

58 “If you will not take care to carry out all the words of this law that are written in this book so as to fear this glorious and fear-inspiring name, even Jehovah, your God, 59 Jehovah also will certainly make your plagues and the plagues of your offspring especially severe, great and long-lasting plagues, and malignant and long-lasting sicknesses. 60 And he will indeed bring back upon you all the diseases of Egypt before which you got scared, and they will certainly hang onto you. 61 Also, any sickness and any plague that is not written in the book of this law, Jehovah will bring them upon you until you have been annihilated. 62 And YOU will indeed be left with very few in number, although YOU have become like the stars of the heavens for multitude, because you did not listen to the voice of Jehovah your God.

63 “And it must occur that just as Jehovah exulted over YOU to do YOU good and to multiply YOU, so Jehovah will exult over YOU to destroy YOU and to annihilate YOU; and YOU will simply be torn away from off the soil to which you are going to take possession of it.

64 “And Jehovah will certainly scatter you among all the peoples from the one end of the earth to the other end of the earth, and there you will have to serve other gods whom you have not known, neither you nor your forefathers, wood and stone. 65 And among those nations you will have no ease, nor will there prove to be any resting-place for the sole of your foot; and Jehovah will indeed give you there a trembling heart and a failing of the eyes and despair of soul. 66 And you will certainly be in the greatest peril for your life and be in dread night and day, and you will not be sure of your life. 67 In the morning you will say, ‘If it only were evening!’ and in the evening you will say, ‘If it only were morning!’ because of the dread of your heart with which you will be in dread and because of the sight of your eyes that you will see. 68 And Jehovah will certainly bring you back to Egypt by ships by the way about which I have said to you, ‘You will never see it again,’ and YOU will have to sell yourselves there to your enemies as slave men and maidservants, but there will be no buyer.”

[DRS]

Well i never believed the whole lake of fire thing. But that is another view that i have a problem with that came from a lot in Christianity.

But mostly the more i read the OT the less i trust the NT.

When Jesus talked to people he used things they knew, so when he talked about what many bibles put as hell, it was Gehenna, a dump outside the walls of Jerusalem where garabage was dumped and those who were not fit for burial were dumped were put.

The ironic thing about people taking this to be a place that would be used by God to torture people is, Gehenna was formly the valley of Hinmon, it was used by the Jews to sacrifice their children alive to Molech. Josiah brought an end to this, but the fact the land had been used like this made it so polluted it was not fit for habitation again and was turned into a dump.

[Tucson Jim]

The concept of Trinity implies that there are two more than one. Whether it is three gods, three personalities, three natures, three bananas... whatever it is, it is two too many.

It is ONE GOD. Period. Again I say, your understanding is flawed.

[Poisonshady313]

So how do you account for all the prophecies he fulfilled?

Coincidences.

[Tucson Jim]

So the Jews don't set the standard, God does.:)

But just who is it who has articulated God's standard? The Christians, right?


So, it's either take the Jews' word for what God's standard is, or take the Christians' word for what God's standard is, or take the Muslims' word for what God's standard is, or the Hindus, or the Buddhist, or the Taoists........


There are a whole lot of groups who have written down "God's standard.":angel:

Yep, and they are all conflicting.

Your mission, should you choose to accept it, is to find which one is right.

They can't all be right because they all conflict.

[Tucson Jim]

Whats so hard to understand?

You are trying to say 1+2=1

By any concept of the trinity you are trying to steal God's greatness by making others equal to God and changing his own words that he is ONE.

Nope. You misunderstand the Trinity. There is One God Only according to the Trinity.

[Tucson Jim]

This is one of those thing that set the Israelites and the patrairchs apart from the nations and peoples around them.

By the way very intersting posts, a good read.

There were triads, I believe.

BIG difference.

[Tucson Jim]

God doesn't have to give signs. Prophets do.

And Jesus, at that moment proclaimed himself a prophet. And therefore he needed signs.

Remember, his audience was not going to believe that a man was a god, or a form of god, or whatever it is you believe Jesus to be.

Actually, much of His Jewish audience did believe in Him. Hence the explosion of Christianity in Acts.

[DRS]

Coincidences.

I remember this excuse being used onetime when after there was evidence umearthed that had proven some of the dramatic events from the OT had occured. isn't neat how God has all those coincidences just happen like that.

[DRS]

There were triads, I believe.

BIG difference.

You have your choice either you believe in one god who has multiple personalities

A god made up of three persons so basically a triad so which is it?

[Tucson Jim]

Yeah great point he already denied that God was talking to himself.

Trinitarians falling left and right.

It is your understanding that is failing left and right . . .

[Tucson Jim]

I am not trying to lecture you, but i see you continue to try and slant the meaning of scripture to make it fit your preconceived belief.

God's word is not meant to confuse but to educate. There is only one way to interpret God's word.
.

And that would be your way, I assume . . .

[DRS]

By the way since hisservant has seemed to shy away from the discussion on the word for spirit in the OT and the need for it to be a person in order for the trinity to work are either of you going to try?

[Tucson Jim]

Jewish commentators teach us that it is precisely from here that we first learn of God's humility and His efforts to preempt any jealousy.

God certainly does not need the help of angels to create man. Angels too, are created in God's image.

God merely wanted to allow the angels to feel special and a "part of the program."



I can't believe you said that!

God merely wanted the angels to "feels special"??

Any human with an IQ above 70 could see through such a ruse - and you think angels couldn't?? Angels are all retarded and can be fooled into thinking they are "helping" an omnipotent God??

Unbelievable . . .

[Tucson Jim]

You run into a few problems though with your theory, first off the spirit is not a person as I have shown from the bible. so God was not speaking to it. Secondly Proverbs 8 shows Jesus was created and hand a hand in creation.

Finally if the verse had said in God's image and the angel's image that would mean the angels were not in God's image, but since they already were there was no need to say anything about the image of the angels.

As for procedding the day you point out what the English words of the Hebrew ruach are in each of the verses I posted earlier we can move on.

The Holy Spirit is absolutely a Person. Blasphemy . . .

[Tucson Jim]

You have to choose, the Bible or the Nicene Creed. They contradict each other. I choose the Bible.

No, actually they don't.

[Poisonshady313]

I remember this excuse being used onetime when after there was evidence umearthed that had proven some of the dramatic events from the OT had occured. isn't neat how God has all those coincidences just happen like that.

When a natural phenomenon happens for which there is no good explanation... it's easier to pick one of three options:

1. Miracle
2. Coincidence
3. It didn't happen.

However, a lot of the events that happened in the "OT" happened on their own, for their own purposes (i.e. the ten plagues in Egypt, etc...)

When talking about Jesus.... you don't have anything that stands on its own... you rely on "Old Testament" prophecies... and the people who know the "Old Testament" the best are better at recognizing when prophecies aren't fulfilled.

God, through His prophets, laid out a handful of easily identifiable specifics in regards to who the Messiah will be and how we will recognize him... if ALL the prophecies were fulfilled, then it would be said that it was him. However, given that he wasn't the messiah... any "fulfillment of prophecy" is coincidental.

Jesus was Jewish. So am I. Will you worship me now? or at the very least, declare me to be the Messiah?

How many people in the past 2500 years were born in Bethlehem? Surely Jesus was not the only one... how many million messiahs are running around today?

Jesus rode into town on a donkey. Refer to what I said about Bethlehem.


The prophecies that Jesus did NOT fulfill are immensely more impressive and obvious that he did not fulfill.

That being said... when Matthew started writing, he might as well have had Matthew 1:1 be "All characters in this story are fictitious; and any resemblance to actual persons, living or dead, is entirely coincidental."

Because the truth is, long before and long after Jesus there have been people significantly more qualified, if only because of their established line to King David and their personalities as human beings, to be the messiah than Jesus. They probably fulfilled a lot more prophecies... but on the prophecy checklist, they couldn't be checked off, because none of them were the messiah.

[Poisonshady313]

I can't believe you said that!

I feel the same way about a lot of the stuff you say.

[Poisonshady313]

The Random House Unabridged Dictionary has 31 definitions for the word "spirit"... and only two of them come close to the meaning of the word "ruach".

an attitude or principle that inspires, animates, or pervades thought, feeling, or action

(initial capital letter) the divine influence as an agency working in the human heart.

The words influence, motivation, inclination, drive, energy, inspiration, force... these are words that describe "ruach" well. "ruach" is not a person. It is not a being. It is not God... not even a third of God.

[Tucson Jim]

The covenant was stipulations in it and God did not break the covenant with those who were faithful they still recieve their reward.

Did you ever read Deuteronomy 28?

Do you ever read the NT??

[Tucson Jim]

Well i never believed the whole lake of fire thing. But that is another view that i have a problem with that came from a lot in Christianity.

But mostly the more i read the OT the less i trust the NT.

I'm telling you. you should investigate JW's . . . they believe just like you!

[Tucson Jim]

You have your choice either you believe in one god who has multiple personalities

A god made up of three persons so basically a triad so which is it?

You do not understand the Trinity, apparently. It has nothing to do with triads - whole different ball game.

[Angryamerican]

The Holy Spirit is absolutely a Person. Blasphemy . . .


I noticed how you and the others totally looked past my little study on the HOLY SPIRIT.

[Angryamerican]

I'm telling you. you should investigate JW's . . . they believe just like you!

No they don't,

They believe that Jesus is the son of God i no longer hold that view.

[Angryamerican]

You do not understand the Trinity, apparently. It has nothing to do with triads - whole different ball game.


I'm sure he understands the difference in the trinity and triads.

But three do not make up one in any case with the Almighty.

[Angryamerican]

Do you ever read the NT??


What does the NT say that OT doesn't?

I thought they were in agreement?


Jim you really seem like a great guy may i suggest you study the Holy Spirit and Jesus in the OT.

Your eyes will get big at what you will find.

[Poisonshady313]

Is the Trinity Found in the Torah?
To whom then will you liken G-d, or what likeness compare with him?"
Isaiah 40:18 (NRS)


One of the most desperate (and often offensive) attempts to give Christianity the air of validity is trying to find evidence of plurality in the Creator. There are a variety of problems with this theory, which we shall explore below.

Genesis 1:1 In the beginning G-d created the heaven and the earth. (KJV)

In the beginning, who created the heaven and the earth? (Note: most translations use a plural of "heavens.") G-d did. No help from Jesus or a Holy Ghost is indicated here. However, some Christians can’t let it go right there. So, they pore over the Hebrew, trying to find evidence that will support their beliefs, trying to find evidence that the Jews were wrong.

Genesis 1:1 Bereisheet barah Elokim et hashamayim v’et ha’aretz. (Hebrew Transliteration)

Christians point to the name of G-d used in this first verse of the Bible: Elokim. This word ends in "im," which is an indication of plurality. Obviously, there must be a plurality to G-d, right? Absolutely not! If the meaning of this word were to be plural, then the verbs would agree, also being in the plural. The word for "created" is "barah," in the singular.

Exodus 7:1 And the LORD said unto Moses, See, I have made thee a god to Pharaoh: and Aaron thy brother shall be thy prophet. (KJV)

The word for "god" used in this verse from Exodus is "elokim." How strange! Did the Almighty reconfigure Moses to be comprised of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit? Did Moses become more than one person? Of course, not! According to some Christians, because a plural suffix is used, the G-dhead must be plural. Therefore, every time you find a word with a plural suffix, that word will be plural. So, there must have been a plurality in Moses, wasn’t there? The Lord is infinite and perfect. "Elokim" is simply a name that shows His very magnitude by using a plural form of the word.

I’m sure some people who read this essay know of the traditional Jewish toast, "L’Chaim!" To life! "Chaim" means life (singular), yet it uses a plural suffix. The word for "water" is "mayim," which uses a plural suffix. The word for "face" is "panim." Even the word for "heaven," "shamayim" used in the first verse of Genesis has the plural ending. Clearly, not every word in Hebrew that employs a plural suffix is actually a plurality. Just as it is not true that every word in English that ends in "s" is a plural word, not every word in Hebrew that ends with "im" is plural.

Deuteronomy 6:4 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God [is] one LORD: (KJV)

In Judaism, we call this verse the "Shema," which is the word for "hear." It is our fundamental declaration of faith.

Deuteronomy 6:4 Hear, O Israel: HASHEM is our G-d, HASHEM is the One and Only. (Artscroll)

A slightly different wording, but the meaning is the same. When I was a child, the translation I was taught was "Hear, O Israel! The Lord is our G-d, the Lord is One!" Believe it or not, some Christians try to prove that the Trinity is in this verse from Deuteronomy! Let us observe the Hebrew rendering:

Deuteronomy 6:4 Shema, Yisrael, Hashem Elokeinu, Hashem Echad. (Hebrew Transliteration)

Literally, the verse reads "Hear Israel Hashem Our G-d Hashem One." The word "echad" in Hebrew means "one." There are instances, as some Christians are quick to point at, where the word "echad" denotes a compound unity. They point to passages in Genesis, for instance:

Genesis 1:5 G-d called to the light: "Day," and to the darkness He called: "Night." And there was evening and there was morning, one day. (Artscroll)

The word "one" used here is "echad." Christians point to other instances where "echad" is used to denote a compound unity, and as such, they declare that every time "echad" is used, that it denotes a compound unity, and therefore, The Lord must be a compound unity, proving that the Trinity is in the Torah! Correct? No, this is totally incorrect. The word "echad" in Hebrew actually works in the same way the word "one" does in English. It can mean either a single unity or a compound unity. These Christians are very quick to point to Genesis 1:5, but you’ll never see them point at verses like these:

Exodus 9:7 And Pharaoh sent, and, behold, there was not one of the cattle of the Israelites dead. And the heart of Pharaoh was hardened, and he did not let the people go. (KJV)

2 Samuel 13:30 And it came to pass, while they were in the way, that tidings came to David, saying, Absalom hath slain all the king's sons, and there is not one of them left. (KJV)

2 Samuel 17:12 So shall we come upon him in some place where he shall be found, and we will light upon him as the dew falleth on the ground: and of him and of all the men that [are] with him there shall not be left so much as one. (KJV)

Ecclesiastes 4:8 There is one [alone], and [there is] not a second; yea, he hath neither child nor brother: yet [is there] no end of all his labour; neither is his eye satisfied with riches; neither [saith he], For whom do I labour, and bereave my soul of good? This [is] also vanity, yea, it [is] a sore travail. (KJV)

The word for "one" used here is "echad." "Not one of the cattle" Was each cow a compound unity? Were the king’s sons more than one person each? Of course, not. Just as "one" in English can work both ways, so can the word "echad."

In trying to prove a plurality, all that a Christian does is create the possibility of a 2-part, or even a 2-thousand part G-d. The fact remains:


Nowhere in the Torah will you find that G-d is comprised of a Trinity.

At the Council of Nicea (325 CE), the doctrine of the Bianity became canonized, equating Jesus to the substance of G-d in Christian theology. The Council of Constantinople in 381 CE added the Holy Spirit to the Bianity and the Trinity was canonized. These councils contradicted the Torah of Moses. See Deuteronomy 4:2 and 12:32 (13:1) for instructions regarding changes to the Torah. Who are we to believe? Moses, or these councils?

http://www.messiahtruth.com/trintorah.html

This article neatly deals with the whole "echad" and "elohim" arguments trinitarians bring up against the Torah. Enjoy.

[HisServant]

Gen 1:1-2

1:1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. 2 Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.
NIV

Gen 1:1-2

In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. 2 The earth was without form, and void; and darkness was on the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters.
NKJV

Gen 1:1-2

In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. 2 The earth was formless and void, and darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was moving over the surface of the waters.
NASU

Gen 1:1-2
1:1 In the beginning God created the Heaven and the earth.

2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
KJV

Gen 1:1-2
1:1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

2 And the earth was waste and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep: and the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
ASV

Gen 1:1-2
1:1 IN THE beginning God (prepared, formed, fashioned, and) created the heavens and the earth. [Heb 11:3.]

2 The earth was without form and an empty waste, and darkness was upon the face of the very great deep. The Spirit of God was moving (hovering, brooding) over the face of the waters.
AMP

Gen 1:1-2
1:1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

2 And the earth was waste and empty, and darkness was on the face of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters.
Darby

Gen 1:1-2
1:1 When God began creating the heavens and the earth, 2 the earth was a shapeless, chaotic mass, with the Spirit of God brooding over the dark vapors.
TLB

Gen 1:1-2

First this: God created the Heavens and Earth — all you see, all you don't see. 2 Earth was a soup of nothingness, a bottomless emptiness, an inky blackness. God's Spirit brooded like a bird above the watery abyss.
(from THE MESSAGE: The Bible in Contemporary Language © 2002 by Eugene H. Peterson. All rights reserved.)

Gen 1:1-2
1:1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. 2 And the earth was formless and void, and darkness was over the surface of the deep; and the Spirit of God was moving over the surface of the waters.
NASB

Gen 1:1-2

In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. 2 The earth was formless and empty, and darkness covered the deep waters. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the surface of the waters.
Holy Bible, New Living Translation ®, copyright © 1996, 2004 by Tyndale Charitable Trust. Used by permission of Tyndale House Publishers. All rights reserved.

Gen 1:1-2

In the beginning, when God created the universe, 2 the earth was formless and desolate. The raging ocean that covered everything was engulfed in total darkness, and the power of God was moving over the water.
TEV

[DRS]

God, through His prophets, laid out a handful of easily identifiable specifics in regards to who the Messiah will be and how we will recognize him... if ALL the prophecies were fulfilled, then it would be said that it was him. However, given that he wasn't the messiah... any "fulfillment of prophecy" is coincidental.

Jesus was Jewish. So am I. Will you worship me now? or at the very least, declare me to be the Messiah?




First off you are born to late to fulfill the prophecy of Daniel's seventy weeks, secondly Jesus never asked to be worshipped, he called on people to worship Jehovah.

There are a few scriptures you would have to fullfill on top of what I stated.
Isaiah 7:14
Jeremiah 31:15
Isaiah 61:1, 2
Isaiah 9:1, 2
Psalm 69:9
Isaiah 53:1
Zechariah 9:9;
Psalm 118:26


Psalm 41:9; 109:8
Zechariah 11:12
Psalm 27:12
Psalm 22:18
Isaiah 53:12
Psalm 22:7, 8
Psalm 69:21
Isaiah 53:5;
Zechariah 12:10

Isaiah 53:9 Buried with the rich Matthew 27:57-60

Psalm 16:8-11, ftn. Raised before corruption Acts 2:25-32;

13:34-37

[DRS]

I can't believe you said that!

God merely wanted the angels to "feels special"??

Any human with an IQ above 70 could see through such a ruse - and you think angels couldn't?? Angels are all retarded and can be fooled into thinking they are "helping" an omnipotent God??

Unbelievable . . .

So as someone who cliams the Christian faith do you feel like a retard because God through Jesus comissioned humans to preach about the coming kingdom, when He could do it Himself?

As a human do you fell like a retard when given the care of the Earth when God can do it Himself?

Do you feel like a retard that God allows you a hand in filling the Earth with creation when He could have done it Himself?

[Poisonshady313]

First off you are born to late to fulfill the prophecy of Daniel's seventy weeks, secondly Jesus never asked to be worshipped, he called on people to worship Jehovah.

There are a few scriptures you would have to fullfill on top of what I stated.
Isaiah 7:14
Jeremiah 31:15
Isaiah 61:1, 2
Isaiah 9:1, 2
Psalm 69:9
Isaiah 53:1
Zechariah 9:9;
Psalm 118:26


Psalm 41:9; 109:8
Zechariah 11:12
Psalm 27:12
Psalm 22:18
Isaiah 53:12
Psalm 22:7, 8
Psalm 69:21
Isaiah 53:5;
Zechariah 12:10

Isaiah 53:9 Buried with the rich Matthew 27:57-60

Psalm 16:8-11, ftn. Raised before corruption Acts 2:25-32;

13:34-37
Without cracking open a book or opening up a website, I can tell you right here and now that a whole mess of the verses you posted aren't even messianic prophecies.

I can tell you at least one of them that was absolutely impossible for Jesus to have been a part of.

And I can tell you one of the ones from Zechariah (I don't remember specifically which one, but I'm willing to bet it has something to do with 30 pieces of silver) was very sloppily misunderstood and misused by the gospel writers and by the Christians who use it to show fulfillment of something.

Come on DRS... I know you can do better than that.

[DRS]

The Holy Spirit is absolutely a Person. Blasphemy . . .

Well that should be easy to prove.

If it were a person it should have a name.
If it were a person the word for it should be able to denote it as such in hebrew and greek

And if it were a person Hisservant or anyof you should be able easily disprove what I said with the use of scriptures or show the error in all those scriptures I posted where in Hebrew the word for Spirit is used to denote other inpersonal forces.

[Warrior4God]

No they don't,

They believe that Jesus is the son of God i no longer hold that view.

Then you never held that view nor have you ever made him Lord and may God have mercy and show his truth to your blindness Sir.
Reject that which God Almighty sent for you is rejection of God Almighty.
Thats the facts that is the truth and one day all men will stand before the judgement and give an account.
You would have been better off never to have heard that name above all names then to hear and reject Gods whole purpose for man.
Can't you see Israel was a people that over and over sinned and turned their back on God,but God in his mercy because of his covenant with Abraham and his plan for the second Adam to come withheld his wrath upon them.
The children of Israel were so far from God at times and most of the time they were fortunate to live IMHO.
Thank God for that covenant with Abraham.
Read Hebrews and see the hope our anchor of the soul.
Jesus Christ is Gods Son and one glorious day he will return in power and have the victory and all those who turn to him will have victory

[DRS]

Without cracking open a book or opening up a website, I can tell you right here and now that a whole mess of the verses you posted aren't even messianic prophecies.

I can tell you at least one of them that was absolutely impossible for Jesus to have been a part of.

And I can tell you one of the ones from Zechariah (I don't remember specifically which one, but I'm willing to bet it has something to do with 30 pieces of silver) was very sloppily misunderstood and misused by the gospel writers and by the Christians who use it to show fulfillment of something.

Come on DRS... I know you can do better than that.

I know another coincidence, it is interesting though that one scripture I posted you are helping to fulfill, in Isaiah about not believing him.

[Poisonshady313]

Then you never held that view nor have you ever made him Lord

That's not your call to make, arrogant sir.

Just because someone no longer believes something that they used to doesn't entitle you to tell them they never believed it.

Believe me... I was engaged in hearty battle with this Angryamerican fellow, him defending the very ideas and beliefs that he is now rejecting. A change happened in his life. Maybe the fact that he changed his mind means that he didn't believe TO YOUR LIKING...


but who are you?

[Poisonshady313]

I know another coincidence, it is interesting though that one scripture I posted you are helping to fulfill, in Isaiah about not believing him.

:doh: That's just lazy.

Then again... I know that you don't believe in me.... so maybe YOU'RE helping to fulfill the scripture in Isaiah about believing ME.

[DRS]

:doh: That's just lazy.

Then again... I know that you don't believe in me.... so maybe YOU'RE helping to fulfill the scripture in Isaiah about believing ME.

I do not have to belive in you as you have not been sent by God.

Are you claiming to be the messiah?

If so why are you are so concerned with trying to discredit Jesus and not more concerned with doing the work of the messiah?

[Poisonshady313]

I do not have to belive in you as you have not been sent by God.

Are you claiming to be the messiah?

If so why are you are so concerned with trying to discredit Jesus and not more concerned with doing the work of the messiah?

It's as simple as this. I'm as much the messiah as Jesus was.

[DRS]

It's as simple as this. I'm as much the messiah as Jesus was.

Hmm interesting any other prophets you would like to compare yourself too like Moses for example?

[Poisonshady313]

Hmm interesting any other prophets you would like to compare yourself too like Moses for example?

I have no reason to doubt Moses. I have no reason to compare myself to him. He was special.


Jesus was nothing special. and not one misuse of scripture, holy or otherwise, is going to change that.

[Semi-Sweet]

It's as simple as this. I'm as much the messiah as Jesus was.

Acts of the Apostles, Chapter 3 verses 12 to 26

And when Peter saw it, he answered unto he people, Ye men of Israel, why marvel ye at this? or why look ye so earnesty on us, as though by our own power or holiness we had made this man to walk? The God of Abraham, and of Isaac and of Jacob, the God of our fathers, hath glorified his Son, Jesus; whom ye delivered up, and denied him in the presence of Pilate, when he was determined to let him go. But ye denied the Holy One and the Just, and desired a murderer to be granted unto you; and killed the Prince of life, whom God raised from the dead: whereof ye are witnesses. And his name through faith in his name hath made this man strong, whom ye see and know: yea, the faith which is by him hath given him this perfect soundness in the presence of you all. And now, brethren, I wot; that through ignorance ye did it, as did also your rulers. But those things, which God before had showed by the mouth of all his prophets, that Christ should suffer, "he hath so fulfilled." Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the "times" of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord; and he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: whom the heaven must receive until the "times" of restitution of all
"things," which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began. For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say to you. And it shall come to pass, that every soul which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people Yea, and all the prophets from Samuel and those that follow after, as many have spoken, have likewise foretold of these days. Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed. Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.

1. The "things" of verse 18 and the "times" of verse 21 are all embraced in the events of he gospel dispensation "which God before had showed by the mouth of the prophets" and which, says Peter to the Jews, "he hath so fulfilled' The term "hath fulfilled" is past tense and shows that "those things" belonged to something already come to pass. The word "so" indicated how "those things" had been fulfilled--namely, in connection with the coming of Jesus, his suffering [incarnation] resurrection and exaltation in heaven [vs 18]

2. Moses referred to these "times" when he spoke of the prophet that God would raise up--Jesus Christ. [vs 22].

3. All the prophets "told of these days"--the days of this One of whom Moses spake--the Lord Jesus Christ. So "these days" and "the times" refer to the same period--the gospel dispensation [vs 24]

4. These "days" and these "things" are the same as included in the promise to Abraham: "And in thy kindred shall all the families of the earth be blessed." Paul specifically declares [Gal 3:8-9] that this promise has been fulfilled in the gospel dispensation. And Peter specifically declares that God fulfilled all of these things which had been thus foretold when he "raised up his Son Jesus" and "sent him to bless you, in turning you away from your iniquities." [vs 2]

So you don't believe [even a tiny bit] that Jesus Christ was the one spoken of by the prophets?

[Harmonious]

Acts of the Apostles, Chapter 3 verses 12 to 26

And when Peter saw it, he answered unto he people, Ye men of Israel, why marvel ye at this? or why look ye so earnesty on us, as though by our own power or holiness we had made this man to walk? The God of Abraham, and of Isaac and of Jacob, the God of our fathers, hath glorified his Son, Jesus; whom ye delivered up, and denied him in the presence of Pilate, when he was determined to let him go. But ye denied the Holy One and the Just, and desired a murderer to be granted unto you; and killed the Prince of life, whom God raised from the dead: whereof ye are witnesses. And his name through faith in his name hath made this man strong, whom ye see and know: yea, the faith which is by him hath given him this perfect soundness in the presence of you all. And now, brethren, I wot; that through ignorance ye did it, as did also your rulers. But those things, which God before had showed by the mouth of all his prophets, that Christ should suffer, "he hath so fulfilled." Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the "times" of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord; and he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: whom the heaven must receive until the "times" of restitution of all
"things," which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began. For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say to you. And it shall come to pass, that every soul which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people Yea, and all the prophets from Samuel and those that follow after, as many have spoken, have likewise foretold of these days. Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed. Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.

1. The "things" of verse 18 and the "times" of verse 21 are all embraced in the events of he gospel dispensation "which God before had showed by the mouth of the prophets" and which, says Peter to the Jews, "he hath so fulfilled' The term "hath fulfilled" is past tense and shows that "those things" belonged to something already come to pass. The word "so" indicated how "those things" had been fulfilled--namely, in connection with the coming of Jesus, his suffering [incarnation] resurrection and exaltation in heaven [vs 18]

2. Moses referred to these "times" when he spoke of the prophet that God would raise up--Jesus Christ. [vs 22].

3. All the prophets "told of these days"--the days of this One of whom Moses spake--the Lord Jesus Christ. So "these days" and "the times" refer to the same period--the gospel dispensation [vs 24]

4. These "days" and these "things" are the same as included in the promise to Abraham: "And in thy kindred shall all the families of the earth be blessed." Paul specifically declares [Gal 3:8-9] that this promise has been fulfilled in the gospel dispensation. And Peter specifically declares that God fulfilled all of these things which had been thus foretold when he "raised up his Son Jesus" and "sent him to bless you, in turning you away from your iniquities." [vs 2]

So you don't believe [even a tiny bit] that Jesus Christ was the one spoken of by the prophets?
No.

[Harmonious]

Actually, much of His Jewish audience did believe in Him. Hence the explosion of Christianity in Acts.And Acts does not represent the majority of Jews. Ever.

[Semi-Sweet]

No.

Just thought I'd ask! Thanks for taking the time to respond.

[Semi-Sweet]

And Acts does not represent the majority of Jews. Ever.

It represents all the Jews I know including me. [Spiritual Jews, that is]

[Harmonious]

It represents all the Jews I know including me. [Spiritual Jews, that is]

You aren't a Jew, love. You are a Christian.

[DRS]

I have no reason to doubt Moses. I have no reason to compare myself to him. He was special.


Jesus was nothing special. and not one misuse of scripture, holy or otherwise, is going to change that.

So listening to prophets is still a manner of convience, it is okay it was not expected that Jesus would be treated any better than the prophets before him.

[Harmonious]

So listening to prophets is still a manner of convience,No, it's not. Prophets have to prove themselves to the Rabbis of the day. it is okay it was not expected that Jesus would be treated any better than the prophets before him.
There were no evil kings of Israel to do him in. As such, you don't get to compare all the Jews to the Jews unhappy with Jesus, and you certainly don't get to assume that all prophets have nasty ends facing them.

Nice try, but you don't win the prize.

[DRS]

No, it's not. Prophets have to prove themselves to the Rabbis of the day.
There were no evil kings of Israel to do him in.

Nice try, but you don't win the prize.

There is nothing in the scriptures that states a prophet have to prove themselves to me. That is pretty self serving to believe that anyone must prove to a man that he is sent by God. Lots of people have said that were pleasing in Jeremiah's day there were prophets out there contradicting what Jeremiah said.

I am not in this for any prizes, it is not about me and I do not mock any sent by Jehovah, nor do I ask of them to do as I please as I am not that important in the overall scheme of things.

[Harmonious]

There is nothing in the scriptures that states a prophet have to prove themselves to me. That is pretty self serving to believe that anyone must prove to a man that he is sent by God. Lots of people have said that were pleasing in Jeremiah's day there were prophets out there contradicting what Jeremiah said.

I am not in this for any prizes, it is not about me and I do not mock any sent by Jehovah, nor do I ask of them to do as I please as I am not that important in the overall scheme of things.

Then you never paid attention to Deuteronomy 18.

20. But the prophet who intentionally speaks a word in My name, which I did not command him to speak, or who speaks in the name of other gods, that prophet shall die.
21. Now if you say to yourself, "How will we know the word that the Lord did not speak?"
22. If the prophet speaks in the name of the Lord, and the thing does not occur and does not come about, that is the thing the Lord did not speak. The prophet has spoken it wantonly; you shall not be afraid of him.

Rashi on 20
which I did not command him to speak But which I commanded his fellow prophet [to speak].

or who speaks in the name of other gods Even though his words coincide with the halachah [Jewish law], forbidding what is forbidden or permitting what is permissible. — [San. 89a]

[That prophet] shall die By strangulation. Three [sinful prophets] are executed by man : One who prophesies what he has not heard, one who prophesies what was not told to him but was told to his fellow [prophet], and one who prophesies in the name of a pagan deity. However, one who suppresses his prophecy [i.e., does not announce it], or one who transgresses the words of a prophet, or a prophet who transgresses his own words [of prophecy]-their death is by the hands of Heaven, for it is said (verse 19), “ I shall exact [it] from him.” - [San. 89a]

Rashi on 21
[I]Now if you say to yourself, [“How will we know the word the Lord did not speak?”]? [This verse alludes to a future time when Israel will want to know which prophet is speaking the word of God. It means:] You are destined to say this when Hananiah, the son of Azzur [a false prophet], came and prophesied, “Behold the vessels of the house of the Lord will be returned from Babylon now hastily” (Jer. 27:16), and Jeremiah stood and cried (Jer. 27:19-22), “concerning the pillars, concerning the sea,… and concerning the remainder of the vessels…” which had not been exiled, ‘they shall be brought to Babylon’ "together with the exile of Zedekiah. — [Sifrei]

Rashi on 22
If the prophet speaks [in the Name of the Lord] And says, “This thing is destined to happen to you,” and you see [afterwards] that it does not come about, “that is the thing the Lord did not speak” ; so execute him. But you might say, “This applies to one who prophesies regarding the future. However, suppose one comes and says ‘Do such and such a thing, and I am telling you this by the command of the Holy One, blessed is He,’ [how do we know whether he is speaking the truth? Regarding such a case,] they were already commanded that if someone comes to make you stray from any of the commandments, ”Do not hearken to him“ (Deut. 13:4), unless you are certain that he is a perfectly righteous person, e.g., Elijah on Mount Carmel, who sacrificed on a high place when high places were forbidden, [but did so] in order to control Israel [against idolatry]. Everything must be done according to the needs of the time, and the need for preventive measures to protect against breaches . Therefore [with respect to this authentic prophet], it is stated,”hearken to him" (verse 15). - [San. 89a]

[I]you shall not be afraid of him I.e., do not restrain yourselves from advocating his guilt, and do not fear that you will be punished for this [when your advocating leads to his death]. — [Sifrei]


ALL of the prophets were tested. You just don't like the idea that Jesus failed.

[Warrior4God]

That's not your call to make, arrogant sir.

Just because someone no longer believes something that they used to doesn't entitle you to tell them they never believed it.

Believe me... I was engaged in hearty battle with this Angryamerican fellow, him defending the very ideas and beliefs that he is now rejecting. A change happened in his life. Maybe the fact that he changed his mind means that he didn't believe TO YOUR LIKING...


but who are you?

I think there is a big difference in believing something and believing in something.To believe in your heart is believing in something and is profoundly a belief and faith that deep in your heart you know not just outward claims.
I also believe that not believing in the Son of God is as certain and will also have an effect on ones life in that final judgement.
I am not saying he did not believe Jesus was the Son of God I can not see that he made him Lord and believe God raised him from the dead.
The point I was making was not in arrogance but based on what I see from Gods Word.
Jesus said you deny me you deny the Father, I believe those words and if thats arrogant I am all in.

[Harmonious]

I think there is a big difference in believing something and believing in something.To believe in your heart is believing in something and is profoundly a belief and faith that deep in your heart you know not just outward claims.
I also believe that not believing in the Son of God is as certain and will also have an effect on ones life in that final judgement.
I am not saying he did not believe Jesus was the Son of God I can not see that he made him Lord and believe God raised him from the dead.
The point I was making was not in arrogance but based on what I see from Gods Word.
Jesus said you deny me you deny the Father, I believe those words and if thats arrogant I am all in.
Jesus was arrogant, too.

[Poisonshady313]

I am not in this for any prizes, it is not about me and I do not mock any sent by Jehovah, nor do I ask of them to do as I please as I am not that important in the overall scheme of things.

Me neither.

[Warrior4God]

Jesus was arrogant, too.

Jesus knew who he was that is not arrogance.
Arrogance would be to deny who God sent and a persons pride in the flesh of his or her race and stand with those who called for an innocent mans death.
That is arrogant
Just my opinion you have yours

[Harmonious]

Just my opinion you have yours
Fair enough. We can agree to disagree.

[Warrior4God]

Harmonious you are as always cordial and friendly in your responses

[Harmonious]

Harmonious you are as always cordial and friendly in your responses
Thank you.

[DispensationalJim]

I've been out of town for a couple of days, and just caught up on this thread.
It occurred to me that probably the best "evidence" for Jesus being the Messiah would be the timing of His birth.

I have seen articles on how it can be shown from OT verses that the Messiah had to be born exactly when Jesus was born, but as I recall, the Jehovah's Witnesses had a very detailed explanation of that. It may have been in a WatchTower, etc.

Can one of our JW's locate that and post it for all of us to consider?? I for one would certainly appreciate it.

======================

Next thought: On our way to visit the family Friday, my wife and I were listening to the book of Job (I was driving as Carol was following along with her KJV).

As the famous British reader came to Job 38:6-7, I told Carol about the discussion of that passage on this thread. After reading it over again, I wondered if it can be absolutely "proven" if the angels were actually witnessing the creation or if they were rejoicing over what was created "after the fact." Would it not still have been something to sing about even if you were not there until after the marvelous universe was done?

I guess what I'm trying to say is, if Job 38 is the best "proof" from Scripture to show that God was speaking to the angels in Gen. 1, it seems quite weak to me. Maybe some of the other Bible "versions" make a stronger case than the KJV. I'll check some of them asap.

That's all for now.

DJim

[Angryamerican]

Then you never held that view nor have you ever made him Lord and may God have mercy and show his truth to your blindness Sir.
Reject that which God Almighty sent for you is rejection of God Almighty.
Thats the facts that is the truth and one day all men will stand before the judgement and give an account.
You would have been better off never to have heard that name above all names then to hear and reject Gods whole purpose for man.
Can't you see Israel was a people that over and over sinned and turned their back on God,but God in his mercy because of his covenant with Abraham and his plan for the second Adam to come withheld his wrath upon them.
The children of Israel were so far from God at times and most of the time they were fortunate to live IMHO.
Thank God for that covenant with Abraham.
Read Hebrews and see the hope our anchor of the soul.
Jesus Christ is Gods Son and one glorious day he will return in power and have the victory and all those who turn to him will have victory

Respectfully, can you see in to my heart i didn't think so.

You prove he existed in the OT?

I have laid the challenge to everyone in this thread and not one of you can do so.

It's better to reject a name or a person that didn't exist in the OT then to accept someone as a son of God or God that didn't appear don't you think?

We are seeing a pattern here about Christ and the Holy spirit ,and if you don't question what you believe thats fine, it's a two way street.

If i am wrong i have committed blasphemy. If you are wrong you have committed blasphemy and idolatry.

[Angryamerican]

That's not your call to make, arrogant sir.

Just because someone no longer believes something that they used to doesn't entitle you to tell them they never believed it.

Believe me... I was engaged in hearty battle with this Angryamerican fellow, him defending the very ideas and beliefs that he is now rejecting. A change happened in his life. Maybe the fact that he changed his mind means that he didn't believe TO YOUR LIKING...


but who are you?

Thank you poison i appreciate that comment. If you look back in this thread you will see when i held the same view as him i was ok . But now that my view has changed i'm alligning myself to their Hell by rejecting the Almighty. Just like Christians to step in and condemn me.

[Angryamerican]

Thank you.

Christian scare tactics worked when i was young key word young.


But anyways they are entitled to their opinion of me.


But i do have to take in account if i was hit with questions i couldn't answer i might get frustrated to.

But anyhow i am over it and feel much better now.


Thanks to both you and poison.

[Warrior4God]

Thank you poison i appreciate that comment. If you look back in this thread you will see when i held the same view as him i was ok . But now that my view has changed i'm alligning myself to their Hell by rejecting the Almighty. Just like Christians to step in and condemn me.

Don't be so presumtuous angry most of what you posted was not your Ideas and appears were not your thoughts and to be honest I am in agreement with many of poison and harmonious's posts I don't think you hold any of my views and thoughts yet you have had some great posts,most of your posts came off mean and defensive.
and here you go again.
my views are those of the NT and you don't believe it so what would it matter to you.
I have no place to condemn anyone thats Gods job.
I really wish you could lighten up take a few looks at DRS,DJim,harmonious and some others posts,you can make a point without being so dang angry and bitter.
I have nothing against you or anyone in the religion forum except for 1 person that I won't mention.
If I said anything to offend you I apologize and hope you will not hold any hard feelings.

[Warrior4God]

I still believe Angry you would be better off spending time in the Bible and not on here as you are not sure what you believe or who is what.
That is if you believe in God,I'm not sure what you believe and it seems you need to find out what you believe.
I know poison, harmonious,Hisservant,DJim,TJim and a slew of others dont hold my views maybe nobody holds those beliefs here but one thing I know is that I truly believe what I do and have no doubts that the messiah is Jesus Christ who was foretold of.
I believe he is the Way to God,I have seen small and large miracles and proof in my life and will see many more.
I know God has made himself known in my life and know Gods spirit is within me and everytime I speak in tongues and everytime I speak in tongues and interpret it once again shows me I am born again.
That feeling there are no words to express.
Those who were eyewitnesses of the miracles and words of Jesus Christ were written by inspiration of God and I believe experientially to be true.
I have seen God work through the name of Jesus Christ and whether anyone believes him, he is still my Lord and saviour and no man or spirit can take that from me.
What ever you believe I believe you must have that type of conviction or what use is there to worship God at all.
A double minded man is unstable in ALL his ways and every man owes it to those he loves to find the truth

[Harmonious]

With all due respect, Warrior, I think that Angry KNOWS what he believes. He is just new to them, and is getting his head around them.

You may find Jesus to be your messiah, but he is by no means THE Messiah, and he certainly wasn't fortold in the OT. You are free to believe so, regardless.

I believe Angry when he said that he read through the OT completely and simply doesn't find Jesus there. It is fairly easy to do when you aren't specifically looking for him, as Jesus isn't there.

Give Angry credit for finding new beliefs, and respect him for finding that they are different than yours. While you might disagree with his new-found beliefs, and he is a bit brash in discussing his discovery, he has every right to his beliefs as you do yours.

He isn't confused. He is resolute. It is just new and different. Give the man credit for knowing what he believes.

[Warrior4God]

With all due respect, Warrior, I think that Angry KNOWS what he believes. He is just new to them, and is getting his head around them.

You may find Jesus to be your messiah, but he is by no means THE Messiah, and he certainly wasn't fortold in the OT. You are free to believe so, regardless.

I believe Angry when he said that he read through the OT completely and simply doesn't find Jesus there. It is fairly easy to do when you aren't specifically looking for him, as Jesus isn't there.

Give Angry credit for finding new beliefs, and respect him for finding that they are different than yours. While you might disagree with his new-found beliefs, and he is a bit brash in discussing his discovery, he has every right to his beliefs as you do yours.

He isn't confused. He is resolute. It is just new and different. Give the man credit for knowing what he believes.

I give him credit for searching but I believe he still is searching.
I found myself in tears in prayer over what I have seen happen in his mind and think he is a man who truly wants to serve God and pray for him fervently and to be honest I have prayed for all of you on here and your families,prayer works and prayer is crucial to ask God because we wont recieve if we dont ask.
I always pray that you all will see that I am not a smart butt or bitter or anything else as I like all of you here and want no contention and especially with Angry

[Warrior4God]

Don't get mad but Jesus is the messiah the Son of God and saviour.
just because you don't accept the messiah,I can not help but proclaim the truth
Once again our views differ but I love ya

[Harmonious]

Don't get mad but Jesus is the messiah the Son of God and saviour.
just because you don't accept the messiah,I can not help but proclaim the truth
So you believe. But Jesus isn't the Messiah, and he's not the son of God any more than my brother is, and he hasn't saved anyone.

World peace is not upon us, and all the world's Jews are not in Israel. So, effectively, Jesus did nothing. Jesus is not the Messiah, no matter how much you wish him to be.

[Harmonious]

I give him credit for searching but I believe he still is searching.
I found myself in tears in prayer over what I have seen happen in his mind and think he is a man who truly wants to serve God and pray for him fervently and to be honest I have prayed for all of you on here and your families,prayer works and prayer is crucial to ask God because we wont recieve if we dont ask.
I always pray that you all will see that I am not a smart butt or bitter or anything else as I like all of you here and want no contention and especially with Angry
I can tell that you aren't trying to cause trouble. But if a soul tells you what he believes, you can't tell him that he doesn't know what he believes.

[DispensationalJim]

Well, I am so sorry, Harmonious, but I have been trying to be nice. Now I see that you keep stating AS IF IT IS A FACT that Jesus is NOT the Messiah.

We have given page after page of rational and Scriptural evidence that JESUS WAS AND IS THE MESSIAH, but unfortunately you cannot even consider our evidence because you will not even read the New Testament! How can you even debate the issue under those conditions? You are basing your Jewish beliefs on man-made opinions which come from man-made Jewish "oral traditions", etc., etc.

When you say that the New Testament is meaningless to you, you are in effect saying that Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Peter, James, and especially my apostle, Paul, were either liars, con-men, or blithering ignoramuses. You are saying that all of the verses which show perfect fulfillment of prophecies of the Messiah in the New Testament are total lies, even though you admit that you have never read the New Testament, which means you are accepting someone else's OPINIONS as facts.

Well, I do not accept your implication that the apostle Paul, a totally sold out and extremely well educated Jew (who was putting those who believed in Jesus Christ as Messiah in prison, and even having some killed) would buy a con-job or a lie for one minute. Peter, Paul, James, John, and the rest all died for their beliefs. Were they complete morons?

Am I a complete idiot for believing the New Testament with all my heart when I know for sure that by trusting in Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior, my life was changed completely and has remained changed for the last 50 years?

Forgive me for becoming emotional, but you can say that it is YOUR OPINION that Jesus is not the Messiah, but you cannot say that Jesus was NOT the Messiah as a fact, because you do not know that for sure.

I am going to prepare an all-out barrage of evidence that JESUS IS THE MESSIAH for this thread. I will repost some verses that you did not respond to earlier, and add many more. If you want to challenge this evidence, you will be forced to read a whole lot of New Testament verses. If you are not willing to do that, then you are not qualified to reject the evidence since you refuse to genuinely consider it.

If you insist on stating as a fact that Jesus is not the Messiah, then you should be prepared to have the same type of attitude exhibited against your beliefs.

DispensationalJim

[Mathius]

We have given page after page of rational and Scriptural evidence that JESUS WAS AND IS THE MESSIAH, but unfortunately you cannot even consider our evidence because you will not even read the New Testament! How can you even debate the issue under those conditions? You are basing your Jewish beliefs on man-made opinions which come from man-made Jewish "oral traditions", etc., etc.

The criteria for the Messiah is OT scripture and not NT. So being that Jesus is not the messiah then why would she read the NT?

She has already given you 2 major points for why he can't be the Messiah

1. His father is not from the line of King David.

2. All of the Jewish people are not in Israel.

I am going to prepare an all-out barrage of evidence that JESUS IS THE MESSIAH for this thread. I will repost some verses that you did not respond to earlier, and add many more. If you want to challenge this evidence, you will be forced to read a whole lot of New Testament verses. If you are not willing to do that, then you are not qualified to reject the evidence since you refuse to genuinely consider it.

If you are going to do this please make a new thread so that this one does not get off topic again.

If you insist on stating as a fact that Jesus is not the Messiah, then you should be prepared to have the same type of attitude exhibited against your beliefs.

DispensationalJim

Yes DJim backlash at those who don't believe the way you do like your beloved Saul. I am sure Jesus would love you to belittle those who don't believe like you do.

[Harmonious]

Well, I am so sorry, Harmonious, but I have been trying to be nice. Now I see that you keep stating AS IF IT IS A FACT that Jesus is NOT the Messiah. Well, it is.

We have given page after page of rational and Scriptural evidence that JESUS WAS AND IS THE MESSIAH, but unfortunately you cannot even consider our evidence because you will not even read the New Testament!Because Jesus didn't bring all the Jews back to Israel, and there isn't world peace. If those things didn't happen, then it doesn't matter what Jesus said or did... He's simply not the Messiah. How can you even debate the issue under those conditions? I only work from Jewish law. My concept of the Messiah is from Jewish law, and Jewish law alone. No matter how many miracles Jesus may have performed, the fact is he isn't the Messiah.

You are free to your beliefs, but I know what my Messiah has to do. And Jesus didn't do it. You are basing your Jewish beliefs on man-made opinions which come from man-made Jewish "oral traditions", etc., etc.Well, God gave those Oral Traditions to Moses on Mount Sinai. You are free to ignore that as well, but that doesn't bother me. I know where Jewish law comes from. If it doesn't work for you, that is your right.

When you say that the New Testament is meaningless to you, you are in effect saying that Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Peter, James, and especially my apostle, Paul, were either liars, con-men, or blithering ignoramuses. Yup.You are saying that all of the verses which show perfect fulfillment of prophecies of the Messiah in the New Testament are total lies, even though you admit that you have never read the New Testament, which means you are accepting someone else's OPINIONS as facts.Dude, I've brought you facts and verses that show that Jesus didn't do anything, including being born to the right family. You can keep bringing bogus support, but in the end, 0 x 100 = 0. And you can bring things that tell me that Jesus was Jewish, and that he rode on a donkey, and that he was born in Bethlehem, and a whole bunch of other things which I don't at all find impressive.

A man who convinces all the Jews to make Aliya - that would be impressive.

A man who brings world peace - that would be impressive.

Jesus was not impressive. To me, or any Jew who studies the Torah and understands what is expected by a man in Jewish law, forget about what is expected of a Messiah.

Well, I do not accept your implication that the apostle Paul, a totally sold out and extremely well educated Jew (who was putting those who believed in Jesus Christ as Messiah in prison, and even having some killed) would buy a con-job or a lie for one minute.You don't have to. Just because I believe it doesn't mean YOU have to. Peter, Paul, James, John, and the rest all died for their beliefs. Were they complete morons?Yup.

Am I a complete idiot for believing the New Testament with all my heart when I know for sure that by trusting in Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior, my life was changed completely and has remained changed for the last 50 years?No. But I would say that you were misinformed.

But that is my right to believe it. I have the right to believe that you are wrong. You have been taught incorrectly. And that is okay. You mean well. And that is a good thing.

But at the end of the day, I believe that you are wrong about Jesus. And that is my right. And you can equally believe that I am wrong.

Forgive me for becoming emotional, but you can say that it is YOUR OPINION that Jesus is not the Messiah, but you cannot say that Jesus was NOT the Messiah as a fact, because you do not know that for sure.Yes I can, because I DO know that for sure.

I am going to prepare an all-out barrage of evidence that JESUS IS THE MESSIAH for this thread. I will repost some verses that you did not respond to earlier, and add many more. If you want to challenge this evidence, you will be forced to read a whole lot of New Testament verses. If you are not willing to do that, then you are not qualified to reject the evidence since you refuse to genuinely consider it.It doesn't matter how many verses you throw at me.

World Peace.
Ingathering of all the world's Jews.

Just two things. If Jesus didn't do them, then he can't be the Messiah. End of story.

Barrage away. You will still be wrong. But please do it in a different thread, as per Mathius's request.

If you insist on stating as a fact that Jesus is not the Messiah, then you should be prepared to have the same type of attitude exhibited against your beliefs.
Okay. Really. I know people who believe that I am going straight to Hell because I don't believe in Jesus. I know they also mean well. And so I joke about it, because I don't believe that, either.

You have the right to be wrong. And no matter what you come up with from the NT, you will still be wrong. And I'll still love you.

[DRS]

Then you never paid attention to Deuteronomy 18.



ALL of the prophets were tested. You just don't like the idea that Jesus failed.

There is noting there that states a rabbi has to test out the prophet and what Jesus foretold would happen has happened and is happening.

[Harmonious]

There is noting there that states a rabbi has to test out the prophet and what Jesus foretold would happen has happened and is happening.
Then you don't understand Jewish law. If a sign is asked for, a sign must be produced.

Even Moses, the greatest of all prophets, came prepared with signs in case the Jews wouldn't believe him.

No one was greater than Moses. Jesus should have produced a sign on demand. Instead, he became surly, and declared that the nation was rebellious. The fact is, it was their right to demand a sign. The fact that Jesus didn't produce one when it was demanded shows that Jesus wasn't worth paying attention to as a prophet.

[DRS]

I've been out of town for a couple of days, and just caught up on this thread.
It occurred to me that probably the best "evidence" for Jesus being the Messiah would be the timing of His birth.

I have seen articles on how it can be shown from OT verses that the Messiah had to be born exactly when Jesus was born, but as I recall, the Jehovah's Witnesses had a very detailed explanation of that. It may have been in a WatchTower, etc.

Can one of our JW's locate that and post it for all of us to consider?? I for one would certainly appreciate it.

======================



Are you asking about the 70 weeks of years from Daniel prophecy on the Messiah?

[DRS]

Then you don't understand Jewish law. If a sign is asked for, a sign must be produced.

Even Moses, the greatest of all prophets, came prepared with signs in case the Jews wouldn't believe him.

No one was greater than Moses. Jesus should have produced a sign on demand. Instead, he became surly, and declared that the nation was rebellious. The fact is, it was their right to demand a sign. The fact that Jesus didn't produce one when it was demanded shows that Jesus wasn't worth paying attention to as a prophet.

Moses suffered from a fear of man, and at times came up a little short in the faith department, but he was imperfect so that is okay.

Jesus also did not perform signs when as by the devil either, it was not about proving who he was, those who who wanted to could have found plenty who has seen his miracles or he could be identified by his teachings,

Jesus whole life was about bringing glory to Jehovah.

[Harmonious]

Moses suffered from a fear of man, and at times came up a little short in the faith department, but he was imperfect so that is okay.

Jesus also did not perform signs when as by the devil either, it was not about proving who he was, those who who wanted to could have found plenty who has seen his miracles or he could be identified by his teachings,

Jesus whole life was about bringing glory to Jehovah.

If you say so.

[DispensationalJim]

Hi, DRS!
Yes, I was asking for an article I read some time ago (probably in a WatchTower) which involved the 70 weeks of Daniel plus the triumphal entry, etc.. Since signing off from my "diatribe" below, I began looking up that info. I have found some of it, but it is not well organized. If you have access to what has been already published, I would love to see it.

=====================

And to Harmonious:

First, I must apologize for my response to you. I've had what seemed like a long and emotional week end so far, and thus I over-reacted to your statements. I am truly sorry.

However, I must respond to Mathius and you regarding the two or more things that Jesus must do to be accepted by Jews as the Messiah.

The simple answer from OUR PERSPECTIVE is that HE **IS** COMING BACK to accomplish those exact things. They are clearly described in The Book of The Revelation. More on that in a moment.
===================

And the idea that Jesus was not of the lineage of David is based on reasoning that to me LIMITS GOD and HIS CHOICES in fulfilling the prophecies that HE must have inspired concerning The Messiah.

Here are a few verses from the NT which show what many Jews believed and accepted when Jesus came the FIRST TIME.

From Matthew, a Jew:
• Matt. 1:1 The book of the generation of Jesus Christ, **the son of David**, the son of Abraham. 20 But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou **son of David**, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.
• Matt. 9:27 And when Jesus departed thence, two blind men followed him, crying, and saying, Thou **Son of David**, have mercy on us.
• Matt. 15:22 And, behold, a woman of Canaan came out of the same coasts, and cried unto him, saying, Have mercy on me, O Lord, thou **Son of David**; my daughter is grievously vexed with a devil.
• Matt. 20:30 And, behold, two blind men sitting by the way side, when they heard that Jesus passed by, cried out, saying, Have mercy on us, O Lord, thou **Son of David**. 31 And the multitude rebuked them, because they should hold their peace: but they cried the more, saying, Have mercy on us, O Lord, thou **Son of David**.
• Matt. 21:9 And the multitudes that went before, and that followed, cried, saying, Hosanna to the **Son of David**: Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord; Hosanna in the highest. ... 15 And when the chief priests and scribes saw the wonderful things that he did, and the children crying in the temple, and saying, Hosanna to the **Son of David**; they were sore displeased,
• Matt. 22:42 Saying, What think ye of Christ? whose son is he? They say unto him, The **Son of David**. 43 He saith unto them, How then doth David in spirit call him Lord, saying, 45 If David then call him Lord, how is he his son?

From Mark, a Jew:
• Mark 10:47 And when he heard that it was Jesus of Nazareth, he began to cry out, and say, Jesus, thou **Son of David**, have mercy on me. 48 And many charged him that he should hold his peace: but he cried the more a great deal, Thou Son of David, have mercy on me.
• Mark 12:35 And Jesus answered and said, while he taught in the temple, How say the scribes that Christ is the **Son of David**? 36 For David himself said by the Holy Ghost, The LORD said to my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool. 37 David therefore himself calleth him Lord; and whence is he then his son? And the common people heard him gladly.

From Luke, a Jew:
• Luke 1:27 To a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the **house of David**; and the virgin’s name was Mary. ... 32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his **father David**:
• Luke 1:69 And hath raised up an horn of salvation for us in the **house of his servant David**;
• Luke 2:4 And Joseph also went up from Galilee, out of the city of Nazareth, into Judaea, unto the city of David, which is called Bethlehem; (because he was of the **house and lineage of David**:) ... 11 For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord.

from John, a Jew:
• John 7:42 Hath not the scripture said, That Christ cometh of the **seed of David**, and out of the town of Bethlehem, where David was?

From Paul/Saul, a Jew:
• Rom. 1:3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the **seed of David** according to the flesh;

• 2Tim. 2:8 Remember that Jesus Christ of the **seed of David** was raised from the dead according to my gospel:

More from John, a Jew:
• Rev. 5:5 And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda, **the Root of David**, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.

• Rev. 22:16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the **offspring of David**, and the bright and morning star.

====================

Has Jesus brought all of Israel back to their nation? OBVIOUSLY NOT YET. But He said He will, and we believe He will.

• Matt. 19:28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve **tribes of Israel**.

• Rom. 11:26 And so **all Israel shall be saved**: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:


• Rev. 7:4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the **children of Israel**. ... 17 For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters:

• Rev. 12:10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and **the kingdom** of our God, and the power of his Christ:

• Rev. 21:5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful. 12 And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the **children of Israel**:

• Rev. 22:1 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb. ... 3 And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him:

So we believe that Jesus Christ WILL RETURN some day to establish HIS KINGDOM for ISRAEL, and at that time, HE WILL bring world peace, etc., etc.

DispensationalJim

[Harmonious]

And to Harmonious:

First, I must apologize for my response to you. I've had what seemed like a long and emotional week end so far, and thus I over-reacted to your statements. I am truly sorry.Not a problem, love. Have a better week! :hug:

However, I must respond to Mathius and you regarding the two or more things that Jesus must do to be accepted by Jews as the Messiah.
Okay.
The simple answer from OUR PERSPECTIVE is that HE **IS** COMING BACK to accomplish those exact things. They are clearly described in The Book of The Revelation. More on that in a moment.I hear that. But the Jews believe the Messiah will get it right the first time.
===================

And the idea that Jesus was not of the lineage of David is based on reasoning that to me LIMITS GOD and HIS CHOICES in fulfilling the prophecies that HE must have inspired concerning The Messiah.Well, yeah. God promised that the Messiah would indeed be from the biological paternal descent of King David.

God Himself put that limit. So in effect, God limited His own choice. That's what happens when you set rules.

Here are a few verses from the NT which show what many Jews believed and accepted when Jesus came the FIRST TIME.

From Matthew, a Jew:
• Matt. 1:1 The book of the generation of Jesus Christ, **the son of David**, the son of Abraham.Doesn't matter if you say he was the product of a virgin birth. All that means is that he was Jewish. And love, so am I. But I am also not the Messiah. 20 But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou **son of David**, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.Again, if he was conceived from the "holy ghost," then his biological father is not from King David. So Jesus isn't from David in any way that counts.

Sorry.
• Matt. 9:27 And when Jesus departed thence, two blind men followed him, crying, and saying, Thou **Son of David**, have mercy on us.
• Matt. 15:22 And, behold, a woman of Canaan came out of the same coasts, and cried unto him, saying, Have mercy on me, O Lord, thou **Son of David**; my daughter is grievously vexed with a devil.
• Matt. 20:30 And, behold, two blind men sitting by the way side, when they heard that Jesus passed by, cried out, saying, Have mercy on us, O Lord, thou **Son of David**. 31 And the multitude rebuked them, because they should hold their peace: but they cried the more, saying, Have mercy on us, O Lord, thou **Son of David**.
• Matt. 21:9 And the multitudes that went before, and that followed, cried, saying, Hosanna to the **Son of David**: Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord; Hosanna in the highest. ... 15 And when the chief priests and scribes saw the wonderful things that he did, and the children crying in the temple, and saying, Hosanna to the **Son of David**; they were sore displeased,
• Matt. 22:42 Saying, What think ye of Christ? whose son is he? They say unto him, The **Son of David**. 43 He saith unto them, How then doth David in spirit call him Lord, saying, 45 If David then call him Lord, how is he his son? It doesn't matter how many times it says "son of David" in Matthew. If Jesus was the product of a virgin birth, Jesus doesn't count as a son of David. And calling him such was wishful thinking on Matthew's part.

As a Jew, Matthew should have known better.

From Mark, a Jew:
• Mark 10:47 And when he heard that it was Jesus of Nazareth, he began to cry out, and say, Jesus, thou **Son of David**, have mercy on me. 48 And many charged him that he should hold his peace: but he cried the more a great deal, Thou Son of David, have mercy on me.
• Mark 12:35 And Jesus answered and said, while he taught in the temple, How say the scribes that Christ is the **Son of David**? 36 For David himself said by the Holy Ghost, The LORD said to my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool. 37 David therefore himself calleth him Lord; and whence is he then his son? And the common people heard him gladly.
Same problem. If Mary was a virgin, there is no paternal connection to King David. Wishful thinking on Mark's part.

As a Jew, Mark should have known better.From Luke, a Jew:
• Luke 1:27 To a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the **house of David**; and the virgin’s name was Mary. ... 32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his **father David**:
• Luke 1:69 And hath raised up an horn of salvation for us in the **house of his servant David**;
• Luke 2:4 And Joseph also went up from Galilee, out of the city of Nazareth, into Judaea, unto the city of David, which is called Bethlehem; (because he was of the **house and lineage of David**:) ... 11 For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord.Luke highlights the problem. If Joseph wasn't the biological father, then Jesus wasn't from the House of David. Wishful thinking on Luke's part.

For a bunch of Jews, the authors of the Gospels are striking out when it comes to simple Jewish law.

from John, a Jew:
• John 7:42 Hath not the scripture said, That Christ cometh of the **seed of David**, and out of the town of Bethlehem, where David was? Lame, love. Lots of boys were born in Bethlehem. If John liked the concept of a virgin birth, he too should have known better.

But none of the authors of the Gospels seem to know the law about paternal tribesmanship. Virgin birth = NO TRIBE. Not the tribe of the mother - no one in Jewish law ever cares about the tribe of the mother. We only care that she is Jewish. :naughty:

From Paul/Saul, a Jew:
• Rom. 1:3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the **seed of David** according to the flesh;

• 2Tim. 2:8 Remember that Jesus Christ of the **seed of David** was raised from the dead according to my gospel:

More from John, a Jew:
• Rev. 5:5 And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda, **the Root of David**, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.

• Rev. 22:16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the **offspring of David**, and the bright and morning star.
All of this is wonderful. But if they insist that Jesus was born of a virgin birth, then he has no tribe. He isn't from David. It doesn't matter where his mother is from. He doesn't get the tribal nod.

Virgin birth = NO TRIBE. As Jews, they should have known better. I'm disappointed here. But you gave a valiant effort.
====================

Has Jesus brought all of Israel back to their nation? OBVIOUSLY NOT YET. But He said He will, and we believe He will.The Messiah gets ONE bite at the apple. That is why Jesus, as well as Bar Kochba, and Shabtai Tzvi, and even the last Lubavitcher Rebbe were not the Messiah. One shot - that's all he's got. If he doesn't do it by then, then it obviously isn't him.

• Matt. 19:28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve **tribes of Israel**. Wonderful. But he didn't do it. And just because Matthew says he gets a do-over doesn't mean that Jewish law changes to fit the circumstance.

• Rom. 11:26 And so **all Israel shall be saved**: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: Lovely. And so?

• Rev. 7:4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the **children of Israel**. ... 17 For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters:
Lovely. But so what? Jesus didn't manage to do it, and there is no indication other than wishful thinking that he will do anything in the future.
• Rev. 12:10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and **the kingdom** of our God, and the power of his Christ:Future tense. And Jesus ain't it.

• Rev. 21:5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful. 12 And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the **children of Israel**:Again, this is lovely. But Jesus doesn't get a do-over.

I'm sorry.

• Rev. 22:1 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb. ... 3 And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him: :doh:

So we believe that Jesus Christ WILL RETURN some day to establish HIS KINGDOM for ISRAEL, and at that time, HE WILL bring world peace, etc., etc.

DispensationalJim
I'm glad you believe it, Jim. However, between Jesus not having a tribe and not doing anything the first time around, he has proven - despite all of your lovely verses - that he is NOT the Messiah.

But it was an interesting read.

[Warrior4God]

After looking at some of these links I think many are missing the boat on Jesus as the Messiah http://www.shalach.org/PropheciesTable/prophecieslist2.htm
http://www.messiahrevealed.org/index.html
http://www.shalach.org/PropheciesTable/prophecies.htm
http://religion-cults.com/Judaism/beliefs.htm
http://web2.airmail.net/curtiss/prophecies.htm#odds
http://www.biblebelievers.com/harmon3.html
http://www.gladness.com/resources/jesus/prophecies.html
http://www.konig.org/messianic.htm
http://www.cynet.com/Jesus/prophecy/ntquoted.htm
http://www.bible-way.net/publications/prophecyJesus.htm
http://www.unityinchrist.com/prophecies/
http://www.amazingchange.org/PropheciesConcerningJesus.htm
http://www.bbie.org/english/Study07OriginofJesus/0701OTPropheciesOfJesus.html
http://www.geocities.com/FaithInEvidence/jesusprophecy.html
http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/prophchr.html
http://www.fastboot.com/70_prophecies_Jesus.html
http://www.jesuscaresaboutyou.org/jesusold.html

[Warrior4God]

I would like to start another thread on this subject of the Messiah

[Tucson Jim]

Jesus was arrogant, too.

Is that a loving and respectful way to speak about the God of another, Harmonious?

[Poisonshady313]

Is that a loving and respectful way to speak about the God of another, Harmonious?

According to your own scriptures, he's not anybody's God.

Luke 18:19 And Jesus said to him, "Why do you call Me good? No one is good except God alone.

[HisServant]

According to your own scriptures, he's not anybody's God.

Luke 18:19 And Jesus said to him, "Why do you call Me good? No one is good except God alone.

I know it makes no difference that His statements were a test to the listener.
It is much better to take things out of context to suit ones needs instead of trying to understand them. :rolleyes:

[Warrior4God]

I know it makes no difference that His statements were a test to the listener.
It is much better to take things out of context to suit ones needs instead of trying to understand them. :rolleyes:

Read the whole chapter it still makes the point
Matthew has the same statement I believe

[Poisonshady313]

It is much better to take things out of context to suit ones needs instead of trying to understand them. :rolleyes:

Well, you're the expert. :whistle:

[Tucson Jim]

According to your own scriptures, he's not anybody's God.

Luke 18:19 And Jesus said to him, "Why do you call Me good? No one is good except God alone.

It was simply a request for a little respect when speaking about One who is sacred to others.

I can see, at least in your case, that it has fallen on deaf ears.

[DispensationalJim]

A question for Harmonious:

Would you please explain the "Oral Traditions" you mentioned earlier? You stated that they were given to Moses. But since we have all those books in the Scriptures which Moses wrote down, why would they be called "Oral Traditions" when they are actually recorded for us in the Bible?

I was under the impression that "Oral Traditions" were passed on later-- that is, after the Scriptures were written down.

==================

Next, I would like to repeat my question about Job 38:6-7 which was debated for quite a while earlier on this thread regarding to whom God was speaking in Gen. 1 when He said, "Let US make man in OUR image...".

Isn't it possible that the angels in Job 38 were rejoicing over the creation of the earth AFTER it was completed, rather than as it was actually taking place?

And, is that the only "evidence" from Scripture that God MIGHT have been speaking to the angels as opposed to our view that He was talking to His Son?

DJim

[Harmonious]

A question for Harmonious:

Would you please explain the "Oral Traditions" you mentioned earlier? You stated that they were given to Moses. But since we have all those books in the Scriptures which Moses wrote down, why would they be called "Oral Traditions" when they are actually recorded for us in the Bible?Because they AREN'T recorded in the Bible. All of Jewish law came with a huge amount of details that explain how the various laws work. That was meant to stay oral, so that no one else could claim that THEY had the Torah. The only ones who could properly understand Torah law is someone who came to the Jews to learn about it.

But when the Romans made an effort to kill everyone who knew all the laws by heart, it was decreed by Rabbi Yehuda Hanasi that a shorthand, known as the Mishna, needed to be written down. If that much was written, the rest could stay oral, and it would be enough to be a reminder of the Oral tradition.

But then other people, like the Christians, wanted to kill the Jews, and between being murdered and exiled, the Rabbis got together and decided to write the whole rest of it down. That is known as the Talmud.

I was under the impression that "Oral Traditions" were passed on later-- that is, after the Scriptures were written down.No. Each book of Tanach comes with its own set of Oral Traditions. They were passed down since the actual books were written, but they weren't actually put down on paper until much later.

==================

Next, I would like to repeat my question about Job 38:6-7 which was debated for quite a while earlier on this thread regarding to whom God was speaking in Gen. 1 when He said, "Let US make man in OUR image...".

Isn't it possible that the angels in Job 38 were rejoicing over the creation of the earth AFTER it was completed, rather than as it was actually taking place?Forgive me, Jim, but I don't know what angels you are referencing. I read Job 38, and a chapter before, and a few chapters afterwards, and I don't see anything about angels rejoicing.

And, is that the only "evidence" from Scripture that God MIGHT have been speaking to the angels as opposed to our view that He was talking to His Son?No, God has no son. Well, all people are God's children, and Israel is considered God's Firstborn Son, but other than that, there is no son in heaven.

[DispensationalJim]

Well, thank you very much, Harmonious, for that explanation of the "Oral Traditions."

Now, I must apologize about the second question about angels. That was actually meant for DRS and Angry who were debating that passage, and I should have been more specific about that instead of confusing you. Sorry about that.

To further explain:

My KJV says:
• Job 38:6 Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof; 7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

Some other versions apparently use the word "angels" instead of the "morning stars" or instead of "the sons of God" At least whatever version Angry or DRS (I'm not sure which one) used said "angels" there. My question was related to the idea that when people say that God was speaking to angels in Genesis 1:26, is Job 38:7 the only place that seems to indicate that the angels witnessed the creation.

I'll try to get Angry and DRS to give me an answer.

Thanks again for your usual quick and thorough response, Harmonious.

DJim

[Harmonious]

Well, thank you very much, Harmonious, for that explanation of the "Oral Traditions."It is my pleasure, as always! :hug:

Now, I must apologize about the second question about angels. That was actually meant for DRS and Angry who were debating that passage, and I should have been more specific about that instead of confusing you. Sorry about that.

To further explain:

My KJV says:
• Job 38:6 Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof; 7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

Some other versions apparently use the word "angels" instead of the "morning stars" or instead of "the sons of God" At least whatever version Angry or DRS (I'm not sure which one) used said "angels" there. My question was related to the idea that when people say that God was speaking to angels in Genesis 1:26, is Job 38:7 the only place that seems to indicate that the angels witnessed the creation.

I'll try to get Angry and DRS to give me an answer.

Ah. Now that I know what I'm looking for, I found it. My translation says
"7. When the morning stars sing together, and all the angels of God shout?"

In Hebrew it says "Bnei Elohim," but as I've pointed out the many translations of the word "Elohim," it is correct to say that it refers to angels here.
Thanks again for your usual quick and thorough response, Harmonious.

DJim
My pleasure!

[DispensationalJim]

Harmonious,

I thought of another question. The discussions you have been having on the other thread reminded me that when I was in Israel a few years ago, our group (a Christian singing group) had a converted Jew as a guide. He had been raised Orthodox in Israel, but went to America for college and was converted to Jesus Christ by a Campus Crusade for Christ group.

As he talked to us on our trips outside of Jerusalem, I recall him saying at one point that he felt the vast majority of Jews today are "practical atheists." Have you seen any of that type of thinking in your Jewish circles?

Sorry to get into more "personal" things, but I am very curious.

Again, whenever you feel like responding...

Just wanted to mention it while it was on my mind.

DJim

[DRS]

Well, thank you very much, Harmonious, for that explanation of the "Oral Traditions."

Now, I must apologize about the second question about angels. That was actually meant for DRS and Angry who were debating that passage, and I should have been more specific about that instead of confusing you. Sorry about that.

To further explain:

My KJV says:
• Job 38:6 Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof; 7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

Some other versions apparently use the word "angels" instead of the "morning stars" or instead of "the sons of God" At least whatever version Angry or DRS (I'm not sure which one) used said "angels" there. My question was related to the idea that when people say that God was speaking to angels in Genesis 1:26, is Job 38:7 the only place that seems to indicate that the angels witnessed the creation.

I'll try to get Angry and DRS to give me an answer.

Thanks again for your usual quick and thorough response, Harmonious.

DJim

The sons of God are the angels, the same wording is used in Job 1:6, Job 2:1 and Genesis 6:2 and Psalm 89:6

[Tucson Jim]

More verses comparing Jesus and "God":

God: The King of Kings and Lord of lords - 1 Tim 6:15
Jesus: King of Kings and Lord of Lords.- Rev 19:16.

God: Thy Kingdom is an everlasting Kingdom, and thy dominion endureth thoughout all generations - Psalm 145:13
Jesus: His dominion is an everlasting dominion . . . And His kingdom that which shall not be destroyed - Dan. 7:14

God: Thou, even thou only, knowest the hearts of all the children of men - 1 Kings 8:39.
Jesus: All the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts. Rev 2:23

[DispensationalJim]

Thanks, DRS...
but I had already checked out what the different versions say of Job 38:7.

My original question was: Does that passage (Job 38:6-7) PROVE that the angels were at the actual creation or did they simply see it AFTER it was done? Can you find any other passage that supports the idea that the angels actually were there when God prepared to make man and said, "Let US..."?

It would have to be a lot more definite IMHO to uphold a doctrine that rejects the idea that God the Father was speaking to God the Son.

In other words, if that is the ONLY passage that even suggests that the angels WITNESSED the creation, then the statement that God was speaking to the angels in Gen. 1:26 would not be supportable without more substantial verses.

Of course, we KNOW that Satan (an angel) had been created by Gen. 3 when the serpent/Satan tempted Eve, but there is no reference I know of to other angels until Gen. 6, as you referenced in your post.

Gotta go...

DJim

[DRS]

More verses comparing Jesus and "God":

God: The King of Kings and Lord of lords - 1 Tim 6:15
Jesus: King of Kings and Lord of Lords.- Rev 19:16.

God: Thy Kingdom is an everlasting Kingdom, and thy dominion endureth thoughout all generations - Psalm 145:13
Jesus: His dominion is an everlasting dominion . . . And His kingdom that which shall not be destroyed - Dan. 7:14

God: Thou, even thou only, knowest the hearts of all the children of men - 1 Kings 8:39.
Jesus: All the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts. Rev 2:23

1 Timothy is talking about Jesus.

Daniel 7:14 is about Jesus also, as he is brought before the ancient of Days.

[DRS]

Thanks, DRS...
but I had already checked out what the different versions say of Job 38:7.

My original question was: Does that passage (Job 38:6-7) PROVE that the angels were at the actual creation or did they simply see it AFTER it was done? Can you find any other passage that supports the idea that the angels actually were there when God prepared to make man and said, "Let US..."?

It would have to be a lot more definite IMHO to uphold a doctrine that rejects the idea that God the Father was speaking to God the Son.

In other words, if that is the ONLY passage that even suggests that the angels WITNESSED the creation, then the statement that God was speaking to the angels in Gen. 1:26 would not be supportable without more substantial verses.

Of course, we KNOW that Satan (an angel) had been created by Gen. 3 when the serpent/Satan tempted Eve, but there is no reference I know of to other angels until Gen. 6, as you referenced in your post.

Gotta go...

DJim


Well we know Jesus was present at creation espicially seeing as Proverbs 8:22-31 show his creation and then his hand in creation.

[Angryamerican]

Well we know Jesus was present at creation espicially seeing as Proverbs 8:22-31 show his creation and then his hand in creation.

Wow that is the most convincing evidence of Jesus in the OT.

Hmm DRS the Jehovahs witnesses seem very wise when it comes to scripture.

[DRS]

Wow that is the most convincing evidence of Jesus in the OT.

Hmm DRS the Jehovahs witnesses seem very wise when it comes to scripture.

To be honest I was reading on Justin Martyr and he saw that it was referring to Jesus.

By the concil of Nicea this scripture came under dispute with those supporting the trinity of the doctrine trying to say it was speaking in the future, since then there has been many efforts to make this not be about Jesus, focusing on the fact that wisdom is a feminine word for example, but since the word for congregator is feminine too and is used for Solomon we can see this does not mean the person is female.

[drmilo]

Lets go through this again, HS... The trinity is false... because God is One. Which is to say, the trinity is a trinity... NOT ONE.

tri = 3

Three persons, One God.

For example, My father, known to me, is Dad. My father, known to my mother, is HisName, My father known to his employees, is Mr. LastName. He has three "persons" and yet is only one being.

A clover has three leaves, but is only one plant.

God has three aspects, Father, Son and Holy Spirit, but is only One God.

[Warrior4God]

Three persons, One God.

For example, My father, known to me, is Dad. My father, known to my mother, is HisName, My father known to his employees, is Mr. LastName. He has three "persons" and yet is only one being.

A clover has three leaves, but is only one plant.

God has three aspects, Father, Son and Holy Spirit, but is only One God.

So if the Son of God is God then he is Father and Son?
That means you are your Father and his son too?who is the 3rd part?Mom?Granddad?

God is not a clover. God is Spirit
These analogies are crazy If God wanted to give himself an analogy it would be written like God is love.
wait he did its in the Bible.
Trinity is not

[DRS]

Three persons, One God.

For example, My father, known to me, is Dad. My father, known to my mother, is HisName, My father known to his employees, is Mr. LastName. He has three "persons" and yet is only one being.

A clover has three leaves, but is only one plant.

God has three aspects, Father, Son and Holy Spirit, but is only One God.

All you shown is titles in connection with you father yet his name never changes.

Now there is Jehovah- one person

Jesus- another person

And finally God's spirit or the holy spirit who does not have a name because the spirit is not a persona as has been shown earlier in this thread.

[drmilo]

So if the Son of God is God then he is Father and Son?
That means you are your Father and his son too?who is the 3rd part?Mom?Granddad?

God is not a clover. God is Spirit
These analogies are crazy If God wanted to give himself an analogy it would be written like God is love.
wait he did its in the Bible.
Trinity is not

Refer back to the Gospel According to John.

"In the beginning was the Word . . . and the Word was God."
Later on, the "Word was made flesh" and dwelt among us.
You yourself admit God is Spirit.

Man is spirit as well. Man is not just matter.

Christ is man, as in, He is flesh. But the Gospel tells us that the Word was made flesh. All men are inhabited by their soul, or their spirit. Christ, the man, is inhabitted by the Holy Spirit, which is the Spirit of God. Thus, the Word was made flesh.

The Gospel according to John does show the concept of the Trinity, although does not use the word Trinity.

[DRS]

Refer back to the Gospel According to John.

"In the beginning was the Word . . . and the Word was God."
Later on, the "Word was made flesh" and dwelt among us.
You yourself admit God is Spirit.

Man is spirit as well. Man is not just matter.

Christ is man, as in, He is flesh. But the Gospel tells us that the Word was made flesh. All men are inhabited by their soul, or their spirit. Christ, the man, is inhabitted by the Holy Spirit, which is the Spirit of God. Thus, the Word was made flesh.

The Gospel according to John does show the concept of the Trinity, although does not use the word Trinity.


Really yet John says no man has seen God at anytime.

[Mathius]

Christ is man, as in, He is flesh. But the Gospel tells us that the Word was made flesh. All men are inhabited by their soul, or their spirit. Christ, the man, is inhabitted by the Holy Spirit, which is the Spirit of God. Thus, the Word was made flesh.

So Jesus was God because he had the Holy Spirit within him? If I have the Holy Spirit within me am I also God?

The Gospel according to John does show the concept of the Trinity, although does not use the word Trinity.

The Gospel of John also ripped off of the Rig Vedas which is one of those evil nasty scriptures :rolleyes: written 3000 years before John's gospel. Personally I think that John is a little biased and is stretching reality as it was the last gospel written, but that is just my opinion. Care to point out the trinity in lets say Mark?

[DRS]

So Jesus was God because he had the Holy Spirit within him? If I have the Holy Spirit within me am I also God?


Very interesting comment considering

(Exodus 7:1) Consequently Jehovah said to Moses: “See, I have made you God to Phar′aoh, and Aaron your own brother will become your prophet

Numbers 11:16*In turn Jehovah said to Moses: “Gather for me seventy men of the older men of Israel, whom you do know that they are older men of the people and officers of theirs, and you must take them to the tent of meeting, and they must station themselves there with you. 17*And I shall have to come down and speak with you there; and I shall have to take away some of the spirit that is upon you and place it upon them, and they will have to help you in carrying the load of the people that you may not carry it, just you alone

[drmilo]

Again from John 10:25-30

Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father’s name, they bear witness of me. But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand. I and my Father are one.

Mark 1:1
The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God

Mark 15:39
And when the centurion, which stood over against him, saw that he so cried out, and gave up the ghost, he said, Truly this man was the Son of God.

Matthew 28:18-20
And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

[DRS]

Again from John 10:25-30

Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father’s name, they bear witness of me. But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand. I and my Father are one.

Mark 1:1
The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God

Mark 15:39
And when the centurion, which stood over against him, saw that he so cried out, and gave up the ghost, he said, Truly this man was the Son of God.

Matthew 28:18-20
And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

No one is saying Jesus was not the son of God

As for Jesus and his Father being well I guess that means Jesus wanted only one person to follow him (John 17:21) in order that they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in union with me and I am in union with you, that they also may be in union with us, in order that the world may believe that you sent me forth

[Tucson Jim]

1 Timothy is talking about Jesus.

Daniel 7:14 is about Jesus also, as he is brought before the ancient of Days.

What is your point?

[Poisonshady313]

Three persons, One God.

For example, My father, known to me, is Dad. My father, known to my mother, is HisName, My father known to his employees, is Mr. LastName. He has three "persons" and yet is only one being.



And if someone kills your father, your Dad, your mother's husband and your father's employees' boss all die in one fell swoop.

Thus, you imply, with this analogy, that when Jesus died, God ceased to exist... because killing the son, by default, means killing the father and the holy spirit.

The death of gods... demi-gods resulting from gods impregnating humans... it's the stuff Greek Mythology is made of, and I won't tolerate you accusing my God of being a trinity.

[Harmonious]

Harmonious,

I thought of another question. The discussions you have been having on the other thread reminded me that when I was in Israel a few years ago, our group (a Christian singing group) had a converted Jew as a guide. He had been raised Orthodox in Israel, but went to America for college and was converted to Jesus Christ by a Campus Crusade for Christ group.

As he talked to us on our trips outside of Jerusalem, I recall him saying at one point that he felt the vast majority of Jews today are "practical atheists." Have you seen any of that type of thinking in your Jewish circles?

Sorry to get into more "personal" things, but I am very curious.

Again, whenever you feel like responding...

Just wanted to mention it while it was on my mind.

DJim
:) Always a pleasure.

I won't say that I've seen this type of thinking in my circles, but it has been bandied about before. Rabbi Daniel Lapin, a Rabbi from Washington State who is famous for trying to bring Jews and Christians together to work for similar conservative political goals in an organization called Towards Tradition, discusses this at length.

While many Orthodox Jews are aware that the majority of the Jews in the world are not religious, that is not my current focus. My job, to the best of my ability, is to lead by example. I am Orthodox. If I make being Jewish look good, and maybe convince other Jews to think about becoming more religious, or even convince a few non-Jews to become Bnei Noach, I've done a good job.

Many Jews are indeed atheists, and don't know much about their religious heritage. It is sad but true. But I don't dwell on it too much.

[Angryamerican]

:) Always a pleasure.

I won't say that I've seen this type of thinking in my circles, but it has been bandied about before. Rabbi Daniel Lapin, a Rabbi from Washington State who is famous for trying to bring Jews and Christians together to work for similar conservative political goals in an organization called Towards Tradition, discusses this at length.

While many Orthodox Jews are aware that the majority of the Jews in the world are not religious, that is not my current focus. My job, to the best of my ability, is to lead by example. I am Orthodox. If I make being Jewish look good, and maybe convince other Jews to think about becoming more religious, or even convince a few non-Jews to become Bnei Noach, I've done a good job.

Many Jews are indeed atheists, and don't know much about their religious heritage. It is sad but true. But I don't dwell on it too much.


Morning Harmonious,

Can you tell me who this is about?

Proverbs 8:22-31

[DRS]

What is your point?

You are trying to saying they were about God when they were about Jesus, so the comparison of scriptures in a effort to try and make Jesus God is not solid based on those scriptures all you are doing is saying is Jesus is Jesus.

[drmilo]

No one is saying Jesus was not the son of God

As for Jesus and his Father being well I guess that means Jesus wanted only one person to follow him (John 17:21) in order that they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in union with me and I am in union with you, that they also may be in union with us, in order that the world may believe that you sent me forth

In the Gospel according to John 10:30, Jesus says, "I and the father are one"

You are saying that this doesn't mean that Jesus is claiming to be God, but that he is operating in uniity with God, that their goals are the same. This is might hold water, except that John 10:31 says, "Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him." This is a direct response to Jesus' claim that he and the father are one. They are trying to stone him because they understood him to be speaking blasphemy -- they understood that he was saying that he is God.

You say no one is disputing that Jesus is the Son of God.

But are you disputing, then, the divine nature of Jesus? For how can he be the Son of God and not be divine in nature? If he is divine in nature, then you are claiming that there are, in essence two Gods. The Father and the Son, both divine, bot separate beings. This is not a concept of Trinity. Trinity is the concept of three aspects of one being. If you are a Christian, and believe that Jesus is the Son of God, then Jesus must be divine in nature. If you don't believe in the trinity, but believe that God the Father and Jesus the Son are two separate beings, both divine, then that is what is a pagan belief. That is the belief in two gods.

The Trinity says that God is one. The Father is God. The Son is God. The Spirit is God. Three aspects of One God.

So I must ask, are you disputing the divine aspect of Jesus? And if so, how then can you claim to not be disputing that Jesus is the Son of God?

[DRS]

In the Gospel according to John 10:30, Jesus says, "I and the father are one"

You are saying that this doesn't mean that Jesus is claiming to be God, but that he is operating in uniity with God, that their goals are the same. This is might hold water, except that John 10:31 says, "Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him." This is a direct response to Jesus' claim that he and the father are one. They are trying to stone him because they understood him to be speaking blasphemy -- they understood that he was saying that he is God.

You say no one is disputing that Jesus is the Son of God.

But are you disputing, then, the divine nature of Jesus? For how can he be the Son of God and not be divine in nature? If he is divine in nature, then you are claiming that there are, in essence two Gods. The Father and the Son, both divine, bot separate beings. This is not a concept of Trinity. Trinity is the concept of three aspects of one being. If you are a Christian, and believe that Jesus is the Son of God, then Jesus must be divine in nature. If you don't believe in the trinity, but believe that God the Father and Jesus the Son are two separate beings, both divine, then that is what is a pagan belief. That is the belief in two gods.

The Trinity says that God is one. The Father is God. The Son is God. The Spirit is God. Three aspects of One God.

So I must ask, are you disputing the divine aspect of Jesus? And if so, how then can you claim to not be disputing that Jesus is the Son of God?

As I have shown before getting killed by the Jews is not a sign one is God. Stephen was stoned, Isaiah sawn in half, Naboth they stoned.

He is from God and created by God all everyhting else is created through Jesus.

There is only One ALmighty God without beginning and if you looked at Jesus words his use of the words in defense shows that those who act in behave of the Almight God carry the title god. As I showed from scriptures that Moses did here in the thread also.

[drmilo]

As I have shown before getting killed by the Jews is not a sign one is God. Stephen was stoned, Isaiah sawn in half, Naboth they stoned.

I did not say that because he was killed by the Jews, this means he was God.

I said that he, himself, said, "I and the father are one."

For saying this, the Jews believed he blasphemed, saying that he was God.

Nothing in the context of what Jesus says there leads us to the interpretation that he and God are acting in union with each other. If that context were there, would not the Jews have understood that meaning instead of jumping to the meaning that Jesus was claiming to be God?

[DRS]

I did not say that because he was killed by the Jews, this means he was God.

I said that he, himself, said, "I and the father are one."

For saying this, the Jews believed he blasphemed, saying that he was God.

Nothing in the context of what Jesus says there leads us to the interpretation that he and God are acting in union with each other. If that context were there, would not the Jews have understood that meaning instead of jumping to the meaning that Jesus was claiming to be God?

What was Jesus respons to them 34*Jesus answered them: “Is it not written in your Law, ‘I said: “YOU are gods”’? 35*If he called ‘gods’ those against whom the word of God came, and yet the Scripture cannot be nullified, 36*do YOU say to me whom the Father sanctified and dispatched into the world, ‘You blaspheme,’ because I said, I am God’s Son

He is quoting (Psalm 82:6) “I myself have said, ‘YOU are gods, And all of YOU are sons of the Most High. Which talks about the judges of Israel, Jesus is showing he is acting in God's behalf so like those judges the term elohim comes come on him

[drmilo]

I found this to support the claim that Jesus claimed to be God (and shows biblical support, and thus shows bibilical support for the concept of the Trintiy) (2 posts):


During his ministry Jesus revealed his deity in many ways. Perhaps one of the most clear-cut actions of Jesus, which reveals his deity, was his forgiveness of sins. Mark 2 starts with the account of the healing of the paralytic. Here Jesus simply says "Son, your sins are forgiven" (Mark 2:5).(4) In Isaiah 43:25, and 44:22, God states that the forgiveness of sins is something that the true God does as opposed to Idols (Isaiah 44:12-20). Therefore the Jews were quite correct when they began thinking, "Who can forgive sins but God alone?" (Mk 2:7) It is important to note that Jesus does not say that they were incorrect in their belief that only God can forgive sins. Instead he replies: "Which is easier: to say to the paralytic, 'Your sins are forgiven,' or to say, 'Get up, take your mat and walk'?" (Mk 2:9) Jesus could do both, he could forgive sins as easily as he could heal! Since only God can forgive sins Jesus had to believe he was God.

God is different from humanity. His nature is marked by characteristics that humans just do not possess. Yet Jesus claimed to possess many of these characteristics that only God has. God is Omnipresent (Psalms 139:7-12), yet Jesus also claimed this ability. In Matthew 18 Jesus told his disciples "For where two or three come together in my name, there am I with them." (Matt 18:20) After the resurrection, Jesus told his disciples: "And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age." (Matt 28:20).

In the Old Testament God is clearly portrayed as the Judge of the people. "Say among the nations, 'The LORD reigns... he will judge the peoples with equity" (Ps 96:10) Yet in the New Testament Jesus claims that he will be the judge of the people. "And he has given him authority to judge because he is the Son of Man." (John 5:27) Jesus also claimed for himself the power to send the Holy Spirit: "When the Counselor comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth who goes out from the Father, he will testify about me." (John 15:26) In the Old Testament the Holy Spirit is referred to as the Spirit of God. For Jesus to believe he could send the Spirit of God, he would have to believe that he was God.

Jesus also revealed his deity in the way in which he spoke to the people. An examination of the way in which Jesus used the Old Testament reveals the he considered it to be the words of God.(5) This can be seen in Matthew 19 where Jesus, quoting from the book of Genesis, attributed the words not to Moses but to the Creator (Matt 19:4-5). And yet, whereas the Prophets would preface their messages from God with something like 'Thus says the Lord', Jesus felt that he had the authority to simply say "I tell you." In fact he used this formula over 130 times, many times when teaching on the Old Testament. By doing this Jesus put his words on par with those of God. The only way he could have legitimately done this was if he was God.

Yet while Jesus believed that he was God, he did not make it the centerpiece of his ministry. In fact, Jesus rarely talked about it at all, especially early on in his ministry. One obvious question is: if Jesus really thought he was God, why was he not clearer about it? Why didn't he just come right out and say, 'I am God.’ The main reason is because it did not suit his purpose. Jesus had two main tasks. First and foremost was to be the Lamb of God, to die for the sins of the world. (John 1:29) Second was to point humanity towards the Father. (John 1:18) While many Jews were expecting a Messiah who would throw out the Romans, Jesus came, not as the King of Kings, but as the Suffering Servant.

It is interesting to note that as the end of his ministry approached, Jesus became much clearer concerning his real identity. Whereas in the early part of his ministry Jesus taught chiefly about the Father and the Kingdom of God, as the end approached he began to teach more and more concerning himself, as opposed to his Father. As Millard Erickson has suggested "We might, for example, contrast the Sermon on the Mount with the discourse in the upper room. In the former, the message is centered upon the Father and the kingdom. In the latter, Jesus himself is much more the center of attention." (6)

While Jesus often taught the people in parables, to his disciples he was much more direct. In his explanation of the Parable of the Weeds (Matt 13:24-30) Jesus makes some truly amazing statements, amazing that is unless he is God. As he is explaining to his disciples who the items in the parable represent, Jesus states that: "The harvest is the end of the age, and the harvesters are angels. As the weeds are pulled up and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of the age. The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will weed out of his kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil." (Matt 13:39-41) Here Jesus clearly says that the angels belong to him and that the kingdom at the end of the age is his kingdom. Yet the angels belong to God and elsewhere this kingdom is called the kingdom of God.(7)

One of the most direct claims by Jesus is his claim to be the Son of God. Now it is true that in one sense God is the Father of us all and therefore we are all children of God. (8) But we are children of God by adoption not by nature.(9) Jesus did not claim to be just a child of God. Jesus claimed that he was "God's one and only Son" (John 3:18) This was something very different than the relationship we have as God's children.

The fact that the Son of God and Child of God are not synonymous can also be seen by the way in which the term was used by those around Jesus. For example, in the Gospel of Matthew Satan challenged Jesus saying : "If you are the Son of God, tell these stones to become bread" (Matt 4:3) and "If you are the Son of God throw yourself down [from the Temple]" (Matt 4:6). The demon-possessed men of the Gadarenes, feared Jesus saying, "What do you want with us, Son of God? Have you come here to torture us before the appointed time?" (Matt 8:29) After Jesus walked to the disciples on the water and calmed the storm they worshipped him saying "Truly you are the Son of God" (Matt 14:33). The Messiah and the Son of God are seen as the same by both Peter (Matt 16:16) and Caiaphas (the high priest) (Matt 26:63). The Jews who taunted Jesus while he was on the cross said: "Come down from the cross if you are the Son of God" (Matt 27:40) and that God should save him (Matt 27:43). Finally, "When the centurion and those with him who were guarding Jesus saw the earthquake and all that had happened, they were terrified, and exclaimed, 'Surely this was the Son of God!'" (Matt 27:54).

In all of these instances the term "The Son of God" is associated with power and status that would not belong to a child of God. Children of God cannot normally turn stones into bread, walk on water, calm storms, strike fear into demons, or save themselves from crucifixion and yet these were all abilities that those around Jesus expected of the Son of God. Yet still one could argue that this meant that the term 'the Son of God', only meant someone special, a sort of super prophet.

For Jesus, however, the term meant much more than this. The position of the Son of God is much more than that of a super prophet. Jesus told Nicodemus that salvation, one's eternal destiny, is based on their faith in the Son of God. (John 3: 15-18) Later Jesus said: "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me" (John 14:6) If Jesus were not God than salvation would be based on faith in something other than God. Jesus would be leading us away from God and to himself! Yet at other times Jesus said that salvation was based on faith in the Father (John 5:24) Thus, for Jesus, salvation can be gained through faith in the Son or faith in the Father. The two are clearly equated. To believe one is to believe the other.

[drmilo]

Continued:

For Jesus, however, there was more than just an equation of belief. Jesus said "If you really knew me, you would know my Father as well." (John 14:7) This is a truly amazing statement. Jesus says to know him is to know the Father. But the Father is God. So what Jesus is really saying is that to know him is to know God. The only way this could be true is if Jesus fully represented all of the characteristics of God. (10) But the only way Jesus could fully represent the characteristics of God is if he was God.

A few verses later Jesus says: "Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me;" (John14:11) Now as Christians who have experienced the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, we are comfortable with the ideal of a person being indwelt by God. But Jesus is saying more than just that he is indwelt by God here. Not only is the Father in him but Jesus also claims that he is in the Father. Once again how is this possible unless Jesus is God.

Towards the end of his ministry, while he was in Jerusalem for the Feast of Dedication, Jesus was confronted in the temple area by some Jews who demanded that he tell them if he was the Christ. (John 10:22-39) Jesus responded by saying that he had already told them but they didn't listen. Then he went on to make one of the most clear-cut statements of his deity in the New Testament: "I and the Father are one". (John 10:30) The Greek word for one, hen, is not in the masculine case but in the neuter. Thus Jesus is not saying that he and the Father are the same person but that they are unified in nature and equality.(11)

Perhaps the most clear-cut example of Jesus claiming to be God can be seen in John 8. In another dispute with some Jews, Jesus said that "Your Father Abraham rejoiced at the thought of seeing my day; he saw it and was glad." (John 8:56) This statement in and of itself raises many questions since Abraham had died almost 2000 years earlier, a fact that the Jews immediately seized upon: "You are not yet fifty years old and you have seen Abraham!" (John 8:57) Jesus answered them with an even more amazing claim "I tell you the truth, before Abraham was born, I AM!" (John 8:58). What does Jesus mean by this? There are two points that reveal Jesus' meaning. 1) Jesus said "I AM" instead of "I was" as one would have expected if Jesus' claim was merely that he had pre-existed Abraham. 2) When Jesus said this, the Jews immediately tried to kill him. Now either Jesus was speaking to a group of irate grammarians, or there was some further significance to his choice of "I AM".

The significance of "I AM" is to be found in book of Exodus. Moses was reluctant to go to the Israelites because they might ask him the name of God and Moses did not know it. Therefore: "God said to Moses, 'I AM WHO I AM. This is what you are to say to the Israelites: I AM has sent me to you.'" (Ex 3:14) Thus "I AM" is the name for the God who spoke to Moses from the burning bush. It is the name for the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. It is the name of the God that would led the Jews out of captivity in Egypt. It is the name of the God that spoke to the prophets and whom the prophet spoke for. And it was the name that Jesus claimed for himself. Jesus not only claimed to be God, he claimed to be the God who spoke to Moses from the burning bush. When Jesus made this claim, devote Jews in the first century had only two possible courses of action: 1) Kill him for blasphemy or 2) Fall down an worship him. The Jews before Jesus choose the former.

Sometimes, critics argue that Jesus is not really claiming to be God in these verses and that if we could only understand them in a first century context, we would see that they do not teach his divinity. Critics claim that when Christians see the divinity of Christ in these verses, they are reading back into them, doctrines that were developed by the church at a later time. The main response to this point of view is that words in context have meanings. While it is true that we must try to understand these statements of Jesus in a first century context, this is not as difficult as critics seem to imply. In fact, we can see the first century interpretation of these verses in the New Testament itself, for the writers not only recorded the statements of Jesus but the reactions and responses of those who heard him.

For example, what was the first century Jewish interpretation of Jesus claiming that God was his Father and that he was thus the Son of God? John records the reaction of one group of Jews to such a claim: "For this reason the Jews tried all the harder to kill him; not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God" (John 5:18). To the Jews to whom Jesus spoke, Jesus was claiming equality with God.

Just after Jesus claimed that "I and the father are one" the Jews picked up stones and were going to stone him. Jesus asked them "I have shown you many great miracles from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?" In their reply to Jesus we can see the first century interpretation of his statement: "We are not stoning you for any of these, but because you, a mere man, claim to be God." (John 10:30-33) The reaction of the Jews could not be clearer. They thought that Jesus had claimed to be God.

One could claim that the Jews themselves did not correctly understand the statements of Jesus. But then they would not have been the only ones. After Jesus' resurrection he appeared to the disciples, but Thomas was not present and would not believe. A week later Jesus appeared again and this time Thomas was present. Thomas' response was "My Lord and My God" (John 20:28) Thomas, a disciple, also thought Jesus was God. It is important to point out that if Jesus was not God, Thomas had just committed blasphemy. And yet Jesus did not rebuke him but accepted the title.

It would seem that all who heard the statements of Jesus understood that he had claimed to be God. Some saw this as Blasphemy and attempted, and eventually succeed, to kill him. Others believed his claims and worshipped him. No one seems to say 'No, he didn't really mean that'.

We have seen that Jesus claimed for himself the right/ability to perform actions that only God could do. He claimed the right to forgive sins. The ability to be omnipresent. The right to be the final judge of people at the end of time. The ability to send the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of God. Jesus spoke to the people, not with the authority of a prophet of God (Thus says the LORD), but with the authority of God himself (I tell you). He spoke of his angels and his kingdom.

Jesus claims for himself a special and unique relationship with the father, he claimed to be the one and only Son of God. He said that salvation was based on faith in him. Jesus said that if you know him, you to know the Father and he claimed to indwell the Father.

Most importantly Jesus directly stated, "I and the Father are one" and claimed that he was the "I AM" of the Old Testament. Those around him understood these claims to be claims to God. While some people believed his claims and others rejected them, all seem to have understood them to be claims of deity.

Therefore the conclusion is inescapable, Jesus did claim to be God incarnate. When combined with his teachings on the Father and on the Holy Spirit and the unity of God, it becomes clear that Jesus viewed God as what Christians would later describe as the Trinity and that he was a member of it. Did Jesus know he was God? The answer, based on his own words, is clearly yes.

[DRS]

Might as well have MPK back here then you guys can cut and paste back and forth.

But lets start with the the whole I am thing the Hebrew at Exodus 3:14 is I will be, or I shall be just as the word is translated at Exodus 3:12.

[Mathius]

In the Gospel according to John 10:30, Jesus says, "I and the father are one"

You are saying that this doesn't mean that Jesus is claiming to be God, but that he is operating in uniity with God, that their goals are the same. This is might hold water, except that John 10:31 says, "Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him." This is a direct response to Jesus' claim that he and the father are one. They are trying to stone him because they understood him to be speaking blasphemy -- they understood that he was saying that he is God.

John 10:30
The Father and I are one."

is the statement that got him in trouble with the Pharases. And Jesus follows with John 10:32-38 where he tries to explain that he is one with the Father in thoughts, words, and deeds but he is not God.

John 10:32-36
[32]Jesus answered them, "I have shown you many good works from my Father. For which of these are you trying to stone me?" [33]The Jews answered him, "We are not stoning you for a good work but for blasphemy. You, a man, are making yourself God." [34Jesus answered them, "Is it not written in your law, 'I said, "You are gods"'? [35]If it calls them gods to whom the word of God came, and scripture cannot be set aside, [36]can you say that the one whom the Father has consecrated and sent into the world blasphemes because I said, 'I am the Son of God'?

Jesus is using scripture to debunk the Pharisees as usual and in verse 36 refers to himself as the Son of God not God. When Jesus sees that this is too much for them he moves onto something a little easier to comprehend.

John 10:37-38
[37]If I do not perform my Father's works, do not believe me; [38]but if I perform them, even if you do not believe me, believe the works, so that you may realize (and understand) that the Father is in me and I am in the Father."

As you can see Jesus distinguishes as being a separate entity from God instead of being one distinct entity. Jesus was trying to teach us that we need to be in the Father, become one with the Father, and become like the Father. We all have the Father within us, whether you want to call it conscience or the Holy Spirit, but now it is our turn to be in the Father. That is called unconditional love where 2 beings can "become one" and can never be separated no matter what.


You say no one is disputing that Jesus is the Son of God.

But are you disputing, then, the divine nature of Jesus? For how can he be the Son of God and not be divine in nature? If he is divine in nature, then you are claiming that there are, in essence two Gods. The Father and the Son, both divine, bot separate beings. This is not a concept of Trinity. Trinity is the concept of three aspects of one being. If you are a Christian, and believe that Jesus is the Son of God, then Jesus must be divine in nature. If you don't believe in the trinity, but believe that God the Father and Jesus the Son are two separate beings, both divine, then that is what is a pagan belief. That is the belief in two gods.

Jesus said he was the Son of God. Capital "s" because he is the favorite son. We are all children of God. Jesus is not God period. Jesus is divine just like Gabriel is divine. From John 1:1 Jesus is known as the word. The bible is also the word of God. Is the bible God also?

The Trinity says that God is one. The Father is God. The Son is God. The Spirit is God. Three aspects of One God.

So God called himself his favorite son? So God gave himself to himself in the river of Jordan? So God raised himself from death? So God was born on earth by a woman? So God forsaked himself on the cross? So God was killed by the Romans outside of Jerusalem? Is God sitting at the right hand of God? Did God raise God's name above all other and become Lord because he sacrificed himself for others.

So I must ask, are you disputing the divine aspect of Jesus? And if so, how then can you claim to not be disputing that Jesus is the Son of God?

di·vine /dɪˈvaɪn/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[di-vahyn] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation adjective, -vin·er, -vin·est, noun, verb, -vined, -vin·ing.
–adjective
1. of or pertaining to a god, esp. the Supreme Being.
2. addressed, appropriated, or devoted to God or a god; religious; sacred: divine worship.
3. proceeding from God or a god: divine laws.
4. godlike; characteristic of or befitting a deity: divine magnanimity.
5. heavenly; celestial: the divine kingdom.
6. Informal. extremely good; unusually lovely: He has the most divine tenor voice.
7. being a god; being God: a divine person.
8. of superhuman or surpassing excellence: Beauty is divine.
9. Obsolete. of or pertaining to divinity or theology.
–noun
10. a theologian; scholar in religion.
11. a priest or member of the clergy.
12. the Divine, a. God.
b. (sometimes lowercase) the spiritual aspect of humans; the group of attributes and qualities of humankind regarded as godly or godlike.

–verb (used with object)
13. to discover or declare (something obscure or in the future) by divination; prophesy.
14. to discover (water, metal, etc.) by means of a divining rod.
15. to perceive by intuition or insight; conjecture.
16. Archaic. to portend.
–verb (used without object)
17. to use or practice divination; prophesy.
18. to have perception by intuition or insight; conjecture

I do not think that Jesus was not divine as he fits several of the definitions above. Just because Jesus is divine does not make him God.

[Warrior4God]

John 10:30
The Father and I are one."

is the statement that got him in trouble with the Pharases. And Jesus follows with John 10:32-38 where he tries to explain that he is one with the Father in thoughts, words, and deeds but he is not God.

John 10:32-36
[32]Jesus answered them, "I have shown you many good works from my Father. For which of these are you trying to stone me?" [33]The Jews answered him, "We are not stoning you for a good work but for blasphemy. You, a man, are making yourself God." [34Jesus answered them, "Is it not written in your law, 'I said, "You are gods"'? [35]If it calls them gods to whom the word of God came, and scripture cannot be set aside, [36]can you say that the one whom the Father has consecrated and sent into the world blasphemes because I said, 'I am the Son of God'?

Jesus is using scripture to debunk the Pharisees as usual and in verse 36 refers to himself as the Son of God not God. When Jesus sees that this is too much for them he moves onto something a little easier to comprehend.

John 10:37-38
[37]If I do not perform my Father's works, do not believe me; [38]but if I perform them, even if you do not believe me, believe the works, so that you may realize (and understand) that the Father is in me and I am in the Father."

As you can see Jesus distinguishes as being a separate entity from God instead of being one distinct entity. Jesus was trying to teach us that we need to be in the Father, become one with the Father, and become like the Father. We all have the Father within us, whether you want to call it conscience or the Holy Spirit, but now it is our turn to be in the Father. That is called unconditional love where 2 beings can "become one" and can never be separated no matter what.




Jesus said he was the Son of God. Capital "s" because he is the favorite son. We are all children of God. Jesus is not God period. Jesus is divine just like Gabriel is divine. From John 1:1 Jesus is known as the word. The bible is also the word of God. Is the bible God also?



So God called himself his favorite son? So God gave himself to himself in the river of Jordan? So God raised himself from death? So God was born on earth by a woman? So God forsaked himself on the cross? So God was killed by the Romans outside of Jerusalem? Is God sitting at the right hand of God? Did God raise God's name above all other and become Lord because he sacrificed himself for others.



di·vine /dɪˈvaɪn/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[di-vahyn] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation adjective, -vin·er, -vin·est, noun, verb, -vined, -vin·ing.
–adjective
1. of or pertaining to a god, esp. the Supreme Being.
2. addressed, appropriated, or devoted to God or a god; religious; sacred: divine worship.
3. proceeding from God or a god: divine laws.
4. godlike; characteristic of or befitting a deity: divine magnanimity.
5. heavenly; celestial: the divine kingdom.
6. Informal. extremely good; unusually lovely: He has the most divine tenor voice.
7. being a god; being God: a divine person.
8. of superhuman or surpassing excellence: Beauty is divine.
9. Obsolete. of or pertaining to divinity or theology.
–noun
10. a theologian; scholar in religion.
11. a priest or member of the clergy.
12. the Divine, a. God.
b. (sometimes lowercase) the spiritual aspect of humans; the group of attributes and qualities of humankind regarded as godly or godlike.

–verb (used with object)
13. to discover or declare (something obscure or in the future) by divination; prophesy.
14. to discover (water, metal, etc.) by means of a divining rod.
15. to perceive by intuition or insight; conjecture.
16. Archaic. to portend.
–verb (used without object)
17. to use or practice divination; prophesy.
18. to have perception by intuition or insight; conjecture

I do not think that Jesus was not divine as he fits several of the definitions above. Just because Jesus is divine does not make him God.

good post

[Tucson Jim]

You are trying to saying they were about God when they were about Jesus, so the comparison of scriptures in a effort to try and make Jesus God is not solid based on those scriptures all you are doing is saying is Jesus is Jesus.

No, I'm saying Jesus is God - you just can't see it for some reason . . .

[Tucson Jim]

good post

Yeah, if you consider a post by someone who completely misunderstand the Trinity "good".

[DRS]

No, I'm saying Jesus is God - you just can't see it for some reason . . .

You are using scriptures that you say are about God when they are about Jesus already. Read what you quoted from Daniel.

[DispensationalJim]

Question for Mathius:

What verse tells you that WE ARE **ALL** THE CHILDREN OF GOD?

The doctrine of Christianity teaches that only those who have trusted in Jesus Christ as their Savior are the children of god.

In fact, look what Jesus said!
• John 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil...

If we are all the children of God, why do we need Jesus?

========================

And, thanks, drmilo, for the quotes concerning Jesus deity. However, I for one would appreciate knowing your source, please.

DJim

[Poisonshady313]

If we are all the children of God, why do we need Jesus?
We don't.

[Mikko]

John 10:30
The Father and I are one."

is the statement that got him in trouble with the Pharases. And Jesus follows with John 10:32-38 where he tries to explain that he is one with the Father in thoughts, words, and deeds but he is not God.

John 10:32-36
[32]Jesus answered them, "I have shown you many good works from my Father. For which of these are you trying to stone me?" [33]The Jews answered him, "We are not stoning you for a good work but for blasphemy. You, a man, are making yourself God." [34Jesus answered them, "Is it not written in your law, 'I said, "You are gods"'? [35]If it calls them gods to whom the word of God came, and scripture cannot be set aside, [36]can you say that the one whom the Father has consecrated and sent into the world blasphemes because I said, 'I am the Son of God'?

Jesus is using scripture to debunk the Pharisees as usual and in verse 36 refers to himself as the Son of God not God. When Jesus sees that this is too much for them he moves onto something a little easier to comprehend.

John 10:37-38
[37]If I do not perform my Father's works, do not believe me; [38]but if I perform them, even if you do not believe me, believe the works, so that you may realize (and understand) that the Father is in me and I am in the Father."

As you can see Jesus distinguishes as being a separate entity from God instead of being one distinct entity. Jesus was trying to teach us that we need to be in the Father, become one with the Father, and become like the Father. We all have the Father within us, whether you want to call it conscience or the Holy Spirit, but now it is our turn to be in the Father. That is called unconditional love where 2 beings can "become one" and can never be separated no matter what.




Jesus said he was the Son of God. Capital "s" because he is the favorite son. We are all children of God. Jesus is not God period. Jesus is divine just like Gabriel is divine. From John 1:1 Jesus is known as the word. The bible is also the word of God. Is the bible God also?



So God called himself his favorite son? So God gave himself to himself in the river of Jordan? So God raised himself from death? So God was born on earth by a woman? So God forsaked himself on the cross? So God was killed by the Romans outside of Jerusalem? Is God sitting at the right hand of God? Did God raise God's name above all other and become Lord because he sacrificed himself for others.



di·vine /dɪˈvaɪn/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[di-vahyn] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation adjective, -vin·er, -vin·est, noun, verb, -vined, -vin·ing.
–adjective
1. of or pertaining to a god, esp. the Supreme Being.
2. addressed, appropriated, or devoted to God or a god; religious; sacred: divine worship.
3. proceeding from God or a god: divine laws.
4. godlike; characteristic of or befitting a deity: divine magnanimity.
5. heavenly; celestial: the divine kingdom.
6. Informal. extremely good; unusually lovely: He has the most divine tenor voice.
7. being a god; being God: a divine person.
8. of superhuman or surpassing excellence: Beauty is divine.
9. Obsolete. of or pertaining to divinity or theology.
–noun
10. a theologian; scholar in religion.
11. a priest or member of the clergy.
12. the Divine, a. God.
b. (sometimes lowercase) the spiritual aspect of humans; the group of attributes and qualities of humankind regarded as godly or godlike.

–verb (used with object)
13. to discover or declare (something obscure or in the future) by divination; prophesy.
14. to discover (water, metal, etc.) by means of a divining rod.
15. to perceive by intuition or insight; conjecture.
16. Archaic. to portend.
–verb (used without object)
17. to use or practice divination; prophesy.
18. to have perception by intuition or insight; conjecture

I do not think that Jesus was not divine as he fits several of the definitions above. Just because Jesus is divine does not make him God.
I agree. If Jesus were God, he would not have referred to Himself, the Father, and the Holy Spirit as three separate entities. What if find interesting is that these alleged statements of Jesus were included in the Godpels at all.

[Tucson Jim]

I agree. If Jesus were God, he would not have referred to Himself, the Father, and the Holy Spirit as three separate entities.

Unless, of course, the Father, Son and Spirit ARE three Persons in one God, as Trinitarians believe.

[Tucson Jim]

You are using scriptures that you say are about God when they are about Jesus already. Read what you quoted from Daniel.

You apparently misunderstand what I am trying to do.

I am quoting scriptures that refer to "God" or the "Father" and comparing those that refer to Jesus to show you that Jesus and "God" are spoken of in a nearly identical manner in scripture.

Just something to consider, in addition to all the other evidence presented for Trinity in this thread.

The Daniel quote:

"14 He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all peoples, nations and men of every language worshiped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed."

This is talking about someone who is "like a son of man" in v. 13.

So . . . the dominion of the Son will not pass away and His kingdom will not be destroyed.

Exactly like God, about Whom Psalm 145 says:

Thy Kingdom is an everlasting Kingdom, and thy dominion endureth thoughout all generations - Psalm 145:13

Psalm 145 is written to "my God the King" (v. 1).

[DRS]

You apparently misunderstand what I am trying to do.

I am quoting scriptures that refer to "God" or the "Father" and comparing those that refer to Jesus to show you that Jesus and "God" are spoken of in a nearly identical manner in scripture.

Just something to consider, in addition to all the other evidence presented for Trinity in this thread.

The Daniel quote:

"14 He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all peoples, nations and men of every language worshiped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed."

This is talking about someone who is "like a son of man" in v. 13.

So . . . the dominion of the Son will not pass away and His kingdom will not be destroyed.

Exactly like God, about Whom Psalm 145 says:

Thy Kingdom is an everlasting Kingdom, and thy dominion endureth thoughout all generations - Psalm 145:13

Psalm 145 is written to "my God the King" (v. 1).

Yeah the somone like a son of man being brought before the Ancient of Days is Jesus.

Jesus is given authority by God as king of the kingdom God will have.

[Mathius]

Yeah, if you consider a post by someone who completely misunderstand the Trinity "good".

:rolleyes:

You and the person I responded to both have said that Jesus is God. So evidently I do understand the trinity, but you refuse to answer any of the questions about why God raised God from the dead, or any of the other questions.

[Warrior4God]

It is important for Christians to believe in the virgin birth of Jesus, because without that teaching, Jesus is merely the offspring of Joseph and Mary, and tainted by the sin of mankind. If so, he would be incapable of being our Redeemer, because he could never present himself as the perfect sacrifice for sins. In that case, Christianity would indeed fall apart. But nothing is lost if a shift is made in Christian thinking from Jesus being the “incarnation” of God to Jesus being the creation of God, his Father. How sad that the vast majority of Christians believe the fable that God became a baby. The truth is nearly just the opposite—a baby became the Lord!

[Angryamerican]

You apparently misunderstand what I am trying to do.

I am quoting scriptures that refer to "God" or the "Father" and comparing those that refer to Jesus to show you that Jesus and "God" are spoken of in a nearly identical manner in scripture.

Just something to consider, in addition to all the other evidence presented for Trinity in this thread.

The Daniel quote:

"14 He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all peoples, nations and men of every language worshiped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed."

This is talking about someone who is "like a son of man" in v. 13.

So . . . the dominion of the Son will not pass away and His kingdom will not be destroyed.

Exactly like God, about Whom Psalm 145 says:

Thy Kingdom is an everlasting Kingdom, and thy dominion endureth thoughout all generations - Psalm 145:13

Psalm 145 is written to "my God the King" (v. 1).

But being like someone doesn't mean you are that person correct?

[Angryamerican]

Yeah, if you consider a post by someone who completely misunderstand the Trinity "good".

I notice that you don't seem to respond to his post other than through an ignorant remark.

I am back and i am ready to rock your world oh wait DRS and Mathius done did that.

[DRS]

I notice that you don't seem to respond to his post other than through an ignorant remark.

I am back and i am ready to rock your world oh wait DRS and Mathius done did that.

I'm married I rock no one's world I am just happy with a good nights sleep :D

[Angryamerican]

I'm married I rock no one's world I am just happy with a good nights sleep :D


:)) :)) :))

[drmilo]

John 10:30
From John 1:1 Jesus is known as the word.


Yes. Jesus is the Word in John 1:1. I agree. Read John 1:1 and you will see that if you believe that Jesus is the Word, then you believe that Jesus is God. For John 1:1 says that the Word is God.

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."

[DRS]

Yes. Jesus is the Word in John 1:1. I agree. Read John 1:1 and you will see that if you believe that Jesus is the Word, then you believe that Jesus is God. For John 1:1 says that the Word is God.

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."

Actually it says in the beginning qas the word and the word was torward the God and the was god

[Mathius]

Yes. Jesus is the Word in John 1:1. I agree. Read John 1:1 and you will see that if you believe that Jesus is the Word, then you believe that Jesus is God. For John 1:1 says that the Word is God.

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."

Thank you for ignoring the entire post but one sentence

John 1:1
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

In the footnotes from the New American Bible.
[1] In the beginning: also the first words of the Old Testament (Genesis 1:1). Was: this verb is used three times with different meanings in this verse: existence, relationship, and predication. The Word (Greek logos): this term combines God's dynamic, creative word (Genesis), personified preexistent Wisdom as the instrument of God's creative activity (Proverbs), and the ultimate intelligibility of reality (Hellenistic philosophy). With God: the Greek preposition here connotes communication with another. Was God: lack of a definite article with "God" in Greek signifies predication rather than identification.

They define the Word(Jesus) as the tool of God.
"The Word (Greek logos): this term combines God's dynamic, creative word (Genesis), personified preexistent Wisdom as the instrument of God's creative activity (Proverbs), and the ultimate intelligibility of reality (Hellenistic philosophy). "

In the beginning (when God “spoke” he created the Word) was the Word. (Now we have two entities.) The Word was with God. (meaning exactly that) And the Word was God (Was God: lack of a definite article with "God" in Greek signifies predication rather than identification.)

God is so powerful that his very Word can create the universes. hence John 1:3-14.

Jesus is an instrument of God much like Moses, the prophets, the Holy Spirit, the burning bush, and other items. These instruments rank differently in importance but they still not God. But as Christians we don't worship Moses and the prophets now do we? God used Mary to borne Jesus into this world but we don't worship her. I know you guys are just going to say that I am spinning this but this is how I interpret the scripture and why I don't worship Jesus but only God.

[drmilo]

Question for Mathius:

What verse tells you that WE ARE **ALL** THE CHILDREN OF GOD?

The doctrine of Christianity teaches that only those who have trusted in Jesus Christ as their Savior are the children of god.

In fact, look what Jesus said!
• John 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil...

If we are all the children of God, why do we need Jesus?

========================

And, thanks, drmilo, for the quotes concerning Jesus deity. However, I for one would appreciate knowing your source, please.

DJim

http://www.consider.org/library/jesus.htm

[Mathius]

Question for Mathius:

What verse tells you that WE ARE **ALL** THE CHILDREN OF GOD?

The doctrine of Christianity teaches that only those who have trusted in Jesus Christ as their Savior are the children of god.

In fact, look what Jesus said!
• John 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil...

If we are all the children of God, why do we need Jesus?

DJim

Matthew 5:9
Blessed are the peacemakers, for they will be called children of God.

Do peacemakers need Jesus to be called children of God? Not everyone is a peacemaker but then again a hindu or an athiest can be a peacemaker....

[drmilo]

Matthew 5:9
Blessed are the peacemakers, for they will be called children of God.

Do peacemakers need Jesus to be called children of God? Not everyone is a peacemaker but then again a hindu or an athiest can be a peacemaker....

No one has really countered the article I posted. Especially, the point when Jesus says, "I am the way the truth and the life, no one goes to the father except through me." And when speaking to Nicodemus, he says, John 3:11-18
Jesus answered him, "Are you a teacher of Israel, and yet you do not understand this? Truly, truly, I say to you, we speak of what we know, and bear witness to what we have seen; but you do not receive our testimony. If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how can you believe if I tell you heavenly things? No one has ascended into heaven but he who descended from heaven, the Son of man.
And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of man be lifted up, that whoever believes in him may have eternal life."
For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. For God sent the Son into the world, not to condemn the world, but that the world might be saved through him. He who believes in him is not condemned; he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.

But the old testament, Isaiah says that only God can forgive sins, and the commandments say that "I am the Lord thy God, thy shalt have no other gods before me." Wouldn't the two statements made by Christ be an instance of Christ moving people away from the Father and to himself? How is it that only belief in God is proper, but Christ says that no one will go to the father without belief in him?

Thomas says, "My Lord and My God" to Jesus after the resurrection, and Jesus does not rebuke him for blasphemy.

And, again from the article I posted, in the quote from John, above, Jesus says that he is the "only Son of God." And yet, you said we are all children of God. Therefore, Son of God and Children of God are different.

Also, God made his covenenant with man. Christ makes the "new covenant" at the last supper. "This is the cup of my blood, the blood of the new and everlasting coveneant, it will be shed for you and for all so that sins may be forgiven." Again, sins forgiven through him. And in his ministry, he actually forgave the sins of others, saying "daughter, your sins are forgiven." "Son, your sins are forgiven." How can he forgive sins if he is not God?

I don't know if the article I posted was read, but I haven't heard anything that debunks the author of that article's point of view from anyone.

[Tucson Jim]

Yeah the somone like a son of man being brought before the Ancient of Days is Jesus.

Jesus is given authority by God as king of the kingdom God will have.

I'm afraid you are still missing the point. Yes, we know it's Jesus. Look at how His dominion will last forever, just like God. One of MANY cases of identical language used for the Father and the Son.

I'll give you more. Maybe eventually you will catch on . . .

[Tucson Jim]

:rolleyes:

You and the person I responded to both have said that Jesus is God. So evidently I do understand the trinity, but you refuse to answer any of the questions about why God raised God from the dead, or any of the other questions.

I think we have answered them all multiple times, only to be met by responses that do not acknowledge our answers at all but fly off in some different direction.

[Tucson Jim]

It is important for Christians to believe in the virgin birth of Jesus, because without that teaching, Jesus is merely the offspring of Joseph and Mary, and tainted by the sin of mankind. If so, he would be incapable of being our Redeemer, because he could never present himself as the perfect sacrifice for sins. In that case, Christianity would indeed fall apart. But nothing is lost if a shift is made in Christian thinking from Jesus being the “incarnation” of God to Jesus being the creation of God, his Father. How sad that the vast majority of Christians believe the fable that God became a baby. The truth is nearly just the opposite—a baby became the Lord!

No, actually, you have it exactly backwards . . .

[Tucson Jim]

But being like someone doesn't mean you are that person correct?

True, you could be like someone but not BE that person. But in the case of God, He Himself says there is no one like Him.

What I believe the Bible shows is that identical, or nearly identical language, is used of the Father and the Son in a variety of verses.

So Jesus is indeed like the Father - when God says no one is like Him. I wonder what that could mean?

I will keep posting these as I get time.

[Tucson Jim]

I notice that you don't seem to respond to his post other than through an ignorant remark.

I am back and i am ready to rock your world oh wait DRS and Mathius done did that.

Yeaaahhh, sure . . .:rolleyes:

[Tucson Jim]

Actually it says in the beginning qas the word and the word was torward the God and the was god

Actually, it says the Word was with God and the Word was God . . .

[DRS]

Actually, it says the Word was with God and the Word was God . . .

Mine was a literal Greek translation.