College students arrested for not paying tip

[Ballygrl]

I need to preface this by saying that I'm a good tipper, I usually tip minimum 20%, so I'm not posting this because I'm a cheap customer.

What do you do in this case though when the gratuity is automatically added to the bill and people feel they didn't get good service? Should businesses add an automatic 18% gratuity to the bill if you're in a group of 6 or more? or whatever group size the Restaurant states for an automatic gratuity to be added? Does knowing that you're going to get a set tip give the server license to slack off a bit? and does it go too far arresting people refusing to pay for a tip?

http://www.philly.com/philly/news/breaking/20091119_College_students_arrested_for_not_paying_ tip.html

College students arrested for not paying tip

By Peter Mucha
Inquirer Staff Writer

It was an evening out that college students Leslie Pope and John Wagner will long remember.

Not only did they get what they called lousy service, they got handcuffed and arrested.

All over a $16.35 tip.

They were with a half-dozen friends at the Lehigh Pub in Bethlehem last month, so the establishment tacked what it called a mandatory 18 percent gratuity onto the bill of about $73, according to reports.

Pope and Wagner refused to pay.

"You can't give us terrible, terrible service and expect a tip," said Pope, a 22-year-old Moravian College senior who's a Pottsville native, according to the Lehigh Valley Express-Times.

They had to find their own napkins and cutlery while their waitress caught a smoke, had to ask the bar for soda refills, and had to wait over an hour for salad and wings, they told NBC10.

The pub, which was very busy that night, took the $73, but then called the cops, who treated the matter as a theft.

The menu clearly states, "18 percent gratuity added to check of parties of 6 of more," and a similar message is printed on receipts, a pub employee said this morning.

A court date is scheduled for next month.

What would they do if it happened again? a reporter asked.

"Honestly, probably gonna pay the tip anyway," said Pope, prompting Wagner, 24, a Lehigh University grad student, to laugh.

[johnrocks]

I tip but I can't stand going where it's added, it should be voluntary, want to add for service then just increase my price but don't add tip, it just rubs me the wrong way.

[Hoobeedoo Bejesus]

I need to preface this by saying that I'm a good tipper, I usually tip minimum 20%, so I'm not posting this because I'm a cheap customer.

What do you do in this case though when the gratuity is automatically added to the bill and people feel they didn't get good service? Should businesses add an automatic 18% gratuity to the bill if you're in a group of 6 or more? or whatever group size the Restaurant states for an automatic gratuity to be added? Does knowing that you're going to get a set tip give the server license to slack off a bit? and does it go too far arresting people refusing to pay for a tip?

If they ordered from the menu that clearly stated the stipulations then yes, arrest them.

Lord am I sick of people shirking their responsibilities and then making excuses about it.

[RTchoke]

I hate places that do that. I also tip at least 20% but only if I get good service. Your tip goes down depending on how long I sit there waiting for you to acknowledge my existence.

IMHO it does give the wait staff a reason to slack off, knowing their tip is not dependent on them doing their job.

[Ballygrl]

If they ordered from the menu that clearly stated the stipulations then yes, arrest them.

Lord am I sick of people shirking their responsibilities and then making excuses about it.

Yep, they knew when they sat down that the gratuity would be added, but what do you do if you get really bad service?

I just read some of the comment and someone said on the news it was mentioned that they were comped a bit because of not so good service.

Like John said, tips should be voluntary and not imposed, but I guess they do that because some people are cheap, but then LOL, do they have a right to do that?

I'm going back and forth LOL.

[Ballygrl]

I hate places that do that. I also tip at least 20% but only if I get good service. Your tip goes down depending on how long I sit there waiting for you to acknowledge my existence.

IMHO it does give the wait staff a reason to slack off, knowing their tip is not dependent on them doing their job.

That's what I'm wondering, do you all of a sudden slack off when you know you're going to get a good tip? or do you give excellent service in the hope that people will give you more then 18%?

[Hoobeedoo Bejesus]

Yep, they knew when they sat down that the gratuity would be added, but what do you do if you get really bad service?

I just read some of the comment and someone said on the news it was mentioned that they were comped a bit because of not so good service.

Like John said, tips should be voluntary and not imposed, but I guess they do that because some people are cheap, but then LOL, do they have a right to do that?

I'm going back and forth LOL.

There are other ways to get revenge.

Start a media campaign against them.

Call the health inspector and labor boards on the restaurant.

[RTchoke]

That's what I'm wondering, do you all of a sudden slack off when you know you're going to get a good tip? or do you give excellent service in the hope that people will give you more then 18%?

I don't know the stats but I would bet most people don't give above the 18% that is already added to the bill.

Personally I would not slack off but that's just me. ;) Service has slacked off throughout my years of eating out. I don't know how many times I've had to ask for silverware more than once. It really ****es me off if I have to ask AGAIN after the wait staff sets my food in front of me. I really do not enjoy trying to figure out how to stir sugar into my coffee without a spoon, etc. while waiting for my meal.

[BrittleBullet]

Yep, they knew when they sat down that the gratuity would be added, but what do you do if you get really bad service?

I just read some of the comment and someone said on the news it was mentioned that they were comped a bit because of not so good service.

Like John said, tips should be voluntary and not imposed, but I guess they do that because some people are cheap, but then LOL, do they have a right to do that?

I'm going back and forth LOL.

While I disagree with mandatory tipping (why not just charge more for the food then) they should of asked to talk to the manager and told them their server sucked. If the manager didn't do ****, don't go back again.

[RTchoke]

While I disagree with mandatory tipping (why not just charge more for the food then) they should of asked to talk to the manager and told them their server sucked. If the manager didn't do ****, don't go back again.

I would have made sure they took it off after explaining why. Same thing when you get crappy service where a tip is not mandatory on the tab, talk to the manager and tell them why you will not be leaving Sally a tip. If not, all you end up with is Sally bitching because she got a crappy tip and the manager has no way of knowing it's because Sally brought you the wrong meal, the wrong drink, failed to refill your drink, finally brought you the ketchup after your burger was cold or already half eaten because you got tired of waiting for it, and charged you for an extra item you did not order, etc.

[Buffalo]

While I disagree with mandatory tipping (why not just charge more for the food then) they should of asked to talk to the manager and told them their server sucked. If the manager didn't do ****, don't go back again.
yep. Just went to a very nice restaurant in Minneapolis for seafood 2 weeks ago (visiting a friend there). Server was terrible, brought wrong apps to table, took another tables meals to the wrong table next to us, didn't have half the menu, waited an hour for entrees, entrees turned out raw (black cod). We called over the manager, explained it all, she comped the whole ticket and we left.

[MrShotShot]

The reason restaurants add a tip for large parties is that most folks won't do an 18% tip on such a large tab. While they might normally do 18% on a smaller bill, the thought of a $20,$30,$40 or larger tip just freaks folks out a bit.

Not saying it's right, but that's the rationale.

Personally, I'm generally a 20% tipper for good service. I will also give much less than that or nothing - and tell the manager why - if the service is poor. The problem today is that the gratuity has become expected by many in the restaurant business. They complain that they are paid below minimum wage and have to make up the difference in tips - well your wage issues with your employer aren't exactly my problem, now are they?

And yes, there were much better ways for these college students to handle this situation.

[Andrew_980]

I will NEVER go anywhere with a mandatory tip. Earn it or find a different job.

[BrittleBullet]

I would have made sure they took it off after explaining why. Same thing when you get crappy service where a tip is not mandatory on the tab, talk to the manager and tell them why you will not be leaving Sally a tip. If not, all you end up with is Sally bitching because she got a crappy tip and the manager has no way of knowing it's because Sally brought you the wrong meal, the wrong drink, failed to refill your drink, finally brought you the ketchup after your burger was cold or already half eaten because you got tired of waiting for it, and charged you for an extra item you did not order, etc.

You did the right thing.

Usually a manager will work something out if you had legit complaint about the service or your food. I've only gotten really ****ty service one time out of all the times I've gone out to eat and it was at a Hooters. We ended getting some stuff taking off our bill for the inconvenience.

[RTchoke]

Quick question. The restaurant got their $73 dollar tip and THEN called the cops?

What the hell is up with that? :eh:

[Sinister Rouge]

You did the right thing.

Usually a manager will work something out if you had legit complaint about the service or your food. I've only gotten really ****ty service one time out of all the times I've gone out to eat and it was at a Hooters. We ended getting some stuff taking off our bill for the inconvenience.


That's what they should have done. They should have even been prepared to pay the 18%, but only after they expressed their dissatisfaction with the service.
Also, after paying that 18%, they should have made it clear they would not be returning.

[Sinister Rouge]

Quick question. The restaurant got their $73 dollar tip and THEN called the cops?

What the hell is up with that? :eh:


I think the bill was $73.
18% would be $13.14, which is a ludicrous amount to arrest someone over.

[RTchoke]

I think the bill was $73.
18% would be $13.14, which is a ludicrous amount to arrest someone over.

I get it. I either wasn't reading it right or they wrote it in such a way I was confused.

Also it looks like the tip was $16.35 so that must have been worth arresting someone for. :mrgreen:

[Ballygrl]

I think the bill was $73.
18% would be $13.14, which is a ludicrous amount to arrest someone over.

And add to that the publicity, good or bad? is it worth the $13?

[LouC]

Quick question. The restaurant got their $73 dollar tip and THEN called the cops?

What the hell is up with that? :eh:

$73.00 was for the food and drinks, the additional gratuity was not paid.

[LouC]

Never ceases to amaze me that college students can't read menus or do simple tasks such as make complaints to managers regarding bad service as it is happening.

[Paul-w]

Not Paying Tip = Theft Of Services.

[RTchoke]

$73.00 was for the food and drinks, the additional gratuity was not paid.

Yeah, I got it. I finally put my contacts in a bit ago. I gotta quite reading things wearing my old glasses.:mrgreen:

Also, what are the statues in the state about that? In some states if it says gratuity they can't force people to pay it as by definition it's voluntary. If it says service charge, they can. Anyone know?

[VCaddy05]

heres what I want to know, wasent the norm 15% a few years back? maybe im wrong, and ill usually tip pretty well, but how does a percentage go up?

[MrShotShot]

Never ceases to amaze me that college students can't read menus or do simple tasks such as make complaints to managers regarding bad service as it is happening.

But yet will not hesitate to get up in someone's face about other issues.

[chichimama]

They should have paid the tip and also filed a complaint about the poor service.

Having been a waitress myself, there was nothing worse than serving a party of 6 or more who left me a huge mess to clean up and no tip. I don't see anything wrong with a mando gratuity.

[LouC]

They should have paid the tip and also filed a complaint about the poor service.

Having been a waitress myself, there was nothing worse than serving a party of 6 or more who left me a huge mess to clean up and no tip. I don't see anything wrong with a mando gratuity.

Problem is it is not a gratuity, if it is demanded, at least not technically in my opinion, as a gratuity defined is a gift.

The menu should have read "surcharge".

That is likely why the police say it will get tossed at court.

[Apatriot]

heres what I want to know, wasent the norm 15% a few years back? maybe im wrong, and ill usually tip pretty well, but how does a percentage go up?


It's a plot. I think that the waitpeople have decided that 15% wasn't enough, so they started spreading the rumor that 18% was the new standard. I find it silly.

[JediMindTrick]

If they ordered from the menu that clearly stated the stipulations then yes, arrest them.


Agreed.

Though I do hate it when tips are automatically added in as wait staff should have to earn their tips.

[Army Wife]

I refuse to pay an mandatory tip. A tip is something offered if YOU think the waitstaff has done it's job well. *I* get to decide of you have served me well or not and its up to me to decide on the amount of tip you get. This is no better than being forced to pay all the ridiculous "fees" airlines are applying now days to up the cost of tickets.

If I were them I would fight this tooth and nail and as loudly as possible, I am sick and tired of being expected to foot the bill for people who can not figure out their living expenses before taking a job then turn to me to look for filling the gap. You need to know what your bills are and apply a little math to the hourly rate to make sure you can afford to take said job. If not then you best be looking for something better.

That being said I tip very well for a job well done. I also appreciate literally every penny in tips offered to me and NEVER expect ANY of my regulars to leave me one red cent. I don't lok for them and I certainly don't ask for or demand them.

[Hoobeedoo Bejesus]

I refuse to pay an mandatory tip. A tip is something offered if YOU think the waitstaff has done it's job well. *I* get to decide of you have served me well or not and its up to me to decide on the amount of tip you get. This is no better than being forced to pay all the ridiculous "fees" airlines are applying now days to up the cost of tickets.

If I were them I would fight this tooth and nail and as loudly as possible, I am sick and tired of being expected to foot the bill for people who can not figure out their living expenses before taking a job then turn to me to look for filling the gap. You need to know what your bills are and apply a little math to the hourly rate to make sure you can afford to take said job. If not then you best be looking for something better.

That being said I tip very well for a job well done. I also appreciate literally every penny in tips offered to me and NEVER expect ANY of my regulars to leave me one red cent. I don't lok for them and I certainly don't ask for or demand them.

If it was written on the menu, then they agreed to it when they ordered from said menu.

[ModerateVoice]

If they ordered from the menu that clearly stated the stipulations then yes, arrest them.

Lord am I sick of people shirking their responsibilities and then making excuses about it.

My God folks, Hoobeedoo is going conservative!!!!!!

[JediMindTrick]

I refuse to pay an mandatory tip. A tip is something offered if YOU think the waitstaff has done it's job well. *I* get to decide of you have served me well or not and its up to me to decide on the amount of tip you get. This is no better than being forced to pay all the ridiculous "fees" airlines are applying now days to up the cost of tickets.

If I were them I would fight this tooth and nail and as loudly as possible, I am sick and tired of being expected to foot the bill for people who can not figure out their living expenses before taking a job then turn to me to look for filling the gap. You need to know what your bills are and apply a little math to the hourly rate to make sure you can afford to take said job. If not then you best be looking for something better.

That being said I tip very well for a job well done. I also appreciate literally every penny in tips offered to me and NEVER expect ANY of my regulars to leave me one red cent. I don't lok for them and I certainly don't ask for or demand them.

I'm with you in sentiment but the people chose to eat where it was clearly stated a tip would be added.

[Hoobeedoo Bejesus]

I'm with you in sentiment but the people chose to eat where it was clearly stated a tip would be added.

They are special. It didn't really apply to them. That was for everyone else.

[hremom]

When they were recieving the "terrible, terrible" service, they should have asked to speak to the manager. Automatic gratuities rub me the wrong way and I try to avoid establishments that have the policy, but refusing to pay a gratuity that you were warned would be added is a form of theft.

By speaking to the manager you can sometimes get the gratuity removed or get a new service person. I've also had the entire bill compted when the service was truely "terrible, terrible."

[Ex_Spy_Guy]

If they ordered from the menu that clearly stated the stipulations then yes, arrest them.

Lord am I sick of people shirking their responsibilities and then making excuses about it.

you're high....Id rather pay the fine at the station than tip for ****ty service.

Ill tell the waitress to pee off, and tip the officer at the station for politely typing up the paperwork to pay my fine....with a cup of coffee.

[Hoobeedoo Bejesus]

When they were recieving the "terrible, terrible" service, they should have asked to speak to the manager. Automatic gratuities rub me the wrong way and I try to avoid establishments that have the policy, but refusing to pay a gratuity that you were warned would be added is a form of theft.

By speaking to the manager you can sometimes get the gratuity removed or get a new service person. I've also had the entire bill compted when the service was truely "terrible, terrible."

If the manager on duty refuses to properly compensate you, then you call and speak with another manager or a district manager the next day during normal business hours.

[Hoobeedoo Bejesus]

you're high....Id rather pay the fine at the station than tip for ****ty service.

Ill tell the waitress to pee off, and tip the officer at the station for politely typing up the paperwork to pay my fine....with a cup of coffee.

Because you are special and the terms listed on the menu do not apply to you.

[Ex_Spy_Guy]

Because you are special and the terms listed on the menu do not apply to you.

of course im special....i have money and time to spend it at the place i choose for the things i want under principles i choose, the waitress or waiter needed money needed a customer, and chose to treat them like ****...probably because the tip was 'required'...and she didnt have to earn anything....thats how socialism works.

If gratuity is required, then good service is also required...or off to the station i go.

[WorldWatcher]

>


I've done a couple of restaurant outings in my day. I've called ahead arranged reservations and instructed the management that the bill was never to come near the table, that I was to receive personally. At such times I've paid the bill and the gratuity without blinking an eye.

In another case though another family and ours was going out for dinner together, 4 adults & 3 kids to an establishment we'd been to a few times and new there was no problem with service. Since we were going Dutch, we sat down and informed the waiter (before placing any orders) that this would be on separate checks and indicted who belonged to which group. He said I need to let you know that there is a required gratuity for groups larger than six (just like in the OP). I look at my buddy and got **the nod** from him and looked up at the waiter and said "Son, this is two separate checks and it would be no different then if you had two families at two different tables. There will be no mandatory tip, your tip will depend on your service. If you or your manager has an issue with that, say so now and we'll be on our way." His reply was to ask us for our drink orders and he would check with the manager before placing them. He came back a few minutes later with our drinks and said that there would be no problem with the bill. I thanked him and we went on to enjoy a nice meal. Because he played ball (whether he talked to the manager or not I don't know) and did just fine with the service, he got a better tip then he would have anyway.


Moral of the Story: If you arrange a party up front, pay what you owe under the terms of the agreement and that "groups" do not always a "party" make.


>>>>

[CaptPops]

They will walk, the menu says gratuity, nor surcharge.

[Ballygrl]

Since we're talking about tips, when did this tip jar nonsense start? The 1st time I saw it was at Dunkin Donuts, now all of a sudden they're everywhere.

[CaptainPike]

I don't do involuntary tips. If the service is worthless, there's no tip at all.

[CaptainPike]

Since we're talking about tips, when did this tip jar nonsense start? The 1st time I saw it was at Dunkin Donuts, now all of a sudden they're everywhere.

I noticed that barbers don't have the tip jar, but most beauty salons do. And they have the spot on the receipt where you can write in a tip.

At Wal-Mart it's 15 dollars for a haircut, and they still expect a tip.

[captusa]

I need to preface this by saying that I'm a good tipper, I usually tip minimum 20%, so I'm not posting this because I'm a cheap customer.

What do you do in this case though when the gratuity is automatically added to the bill and people feel they didn't get good service? Should businesses add an automatic 18% gratuity to the bill if you're in a group of 6 or more? or whatever group size the Restaurant states for an automatic gratuity to be added? Does knowing that you're going to get a set tip give the server license to slack off a bit? and does it go too far arresting people refusing to pay for a tip?



Actually the manditory tip is SOL for large groups but that usually does not mean 3 couples(6 for you English majors)

If the 18% tip is part of the bill then they have to pay even if the service was poor just as they would have to pay for the food if they didn't think they got their money's worth.
They should have complained to the manager before they paid the check.
It would be nice if the restaurant noticed a drop in the number of students and parents of students from Lehigh and Moravian and had to figure out the reason.


P.S. Actually the restaurant should comp the 16 bucks (of course give the waitress her 18%) because of the free publicity on NBC10.

P.P.S. Poll waiters and waitresses who have their incomes taxed on the 18% and see how many say they actually received the full 18%.

[chip]

I will NEVER go anywhere with a mandatory tip. Earn it or find a different job.

I guess you dont go places with more than 8 people then. Its pretty standard in parties that large.

[DLaw911]

I need to preface this by saying that I'm a good tipper, I usually tip minimum 20%, so I'm not posting this because I'm a cheap customer.

What do you do in this case though when the gratuity is automatically added to the bill and people feel they didn't get good service? Should businesses add an automatic 18% gratuity to the bill if you're in a group of 6 or more? or whatever group size the Restaurant states for an automatic gratuity to be added? Does knowing that you're going to get a set tip give the server license to slack off a bit? and does it go too far arresting people refusing to pay for a tip?I'm on the side of the restaurant. The policy was (hopefully) clearly stated. The issue is that when you have a large party with a waiter/waitress assigned that person is often times taken off duties from other tables and, therefore, entitled to a tip to compensate for that loss.

Now this is not to say the patrons did not have remedies. If the service was bad then complain AT THE TIME and, if necessary, leave. I have walked out of many restaurants when the service was bad and told the manager why I was leaving. But if you eat the meal and don't complain, then pay the bill and take it up with the management later. Or if you pay by credit card then dispute the tip.

[captusa]

I don't do involuntary tips. If the service is worthless, there's no tip at all.
If the service is really bad leave a dime (unless that's more than 12% of the bill).
Tip 12% if you're cheap.
15% if you're not and more for better than average service(or better than average cleavage)

[WorldWatcher]

I'm on the side of the restaurant. The policy was (hopefully) clearly stated. The issue is that when you have a large party with a waiter/waitress assigned that person is often times taken off duties from other tables and, therefore, entitled to a tip to compensate for that loss.


I'm not understanding "that loss".

A restaurant has tables. Two families of 4-each walk in. If they are together the restaurant pulls two tables together and one of the wait staff serves 8-people. If the two families walk in and are seated separately then the wait staff sill serves the same number of people.


So why would the wait staff be pulled off "other duties" to serve 1 group of 8 but not 2 groups of 4 each?

Whats the difference between serving two tables verses one larger table if the number of people are the same?


>>>>

[NascarGirl2448]

Not Paying Tip = Theft Of Services.

So you would force someone to pay a waiter/waitress a tip they DID NOT earn? :rolleyes:

[NascarGirl2448]

I noticed that barbers don't have the tip jar, but most beauty salons do. And they have the spot on the receipt where you can write in a tip.

At Wal-Mart it's 15 dollars for a haircut, and they still expect a tip.

I actually give my hairdresser a 20% tip, but that's mainly because my hair looks awesome when she's done with it.

[chip]

Im still wondering why only one couple was arrested.

[chip]

Not Paying Tip = Theft Of Services.

Hardly.

[LouC]

Im still wondering why only one couple was arrested.

They were the only couple that didn't pay the imposed surcharge called a "gratuity" on their bill.

[LouC]

I'm on the side of the restaurant. The policy was (hopefully) clearly stated...

The restaurant refers to it as a "gratuity" which as defined is "a gift of money, over and above payment due for service, as to a waiter or bellhop; tip", when it really was a "surcharge" as defined "an additional charge, tax, or cost".

It might be semantics...

[FidelisAdMortem]

This isnt a clear case of arrest for not tipping. Its being arrested for theft of service, for not paying the full bill. It was stated on the menu such a charge would take place for a group of their size, by sitting down, eating they accept that charge, by not paying the entire bill its a theft of service. This is not the same as me ordering and not leaving a tip.

The arrest is valid.

[WorldWatcher]

This isnt a clear case of arrest for not tipping. Its being arrested for theft of service, for not paying the full bill. It was stated on the menu such a charge would take place for a group of their size, by sitting down, eating they accept that charge, by not paying the entire bill its a theft of service. This is not the same as me ordering and not leaving a tip.

The arrest is valid.


I wouldn't claim the arrest was invalid, however whether that arrest would standup in court is another matter. In the OP the restaurant itself refers to the extra charge as a gratuity.


Main Entry: gra·tu·ity
Pronunciation: \grə-ˈtü-ə-tē, -ˈtyü-\
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural gra·tu·ities
Date: 1540
: something given voluntarily or beyond obligation usually for some service; especially : tip


A gratuity is given voluntarily and without obligation.


>>>>

[smyrna]

That's what you call a dumb ass manager/owner...for $16.35 he could have avoided all the negative publicity.:rolleyes:

It's a bad policy if you can't back it up with great service.

[FidelisAdMortem]

I wouldn't claim the arrest was invalid, however whether that arrest would standup in court is another matter. In the OP the restaurant itself refers to the extra charge as a gratuity.


Main Entry: gra·tu·ity
Pronunciation: \grə-ˈtü-ə-tē, -ˈtyü-\
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural gra·tu·ities
Date: 1540
: something given voluntarily or beyond obligation usually for some service; especially : tip


A gratuity is given voluntarily and without obligation.


>>>>

I agree, by the establishment stating it as a gratuity rather than a service charge, I believe they could beat the charge in court.

[LouC]

This isnt a clear case of arrest for not tipping. Its being arrested for theft of service, for not paying the full bill. It was stated on the menu such a charge would take place for a group of their size, by sitting down, eating they accept that charge, by not paying the entire bill its a theft of service. This is not the same as me ordering and not leaving a tip.

The arrest is valid.

I agree the arrest is valid but the menu really should state "surcharge" rather than "gratuity" and I would not be surprised to see is immediately dismissed at court.

[captusa]

I wouldn't claim the arrest was invalid, however whether that arrest would standup in court is another matter. In the OP the restaurant itself refers to the extra charge as a gratuity.


Main Entry: gra·tu·ity
Pronunciation: \grə-ˈtü-ə-tē, -ˈtyü-\
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural gra·tu·ities
Date: 1540
: something given voluntarily or beyond obligation usually for some service; especially : tip


A gratuity is given voluntarily and without obligation.


>>>>

I was kidding when I said 3 couples.
The obligatory "gratuity" is usually for a large "group".
I have never heard 3 couples with seperate checks be identified as a group.
I do not see a D.A. taking the case seriously.

[LouC]

That's what you call a dumb ass manager/owner...for $16.35 he could have avoided all the negative publicity.:rolleyes:

It's a bad policy if you can't back it up with great service.

The establishment just opened recently and would it seems be a very popular place, mostly for the drinking than their food from what I gathered, how experienced the management is is not known, I have read reports that said the manager tried to comp the couple but that they refused and then I have read the couple deny that.

The $73.00 food & drink bill and an 18% gratuity does not work out to the $16.35 amount being claimed as the amount they refused to pay?

[LouC]

I was kidding when I said 3 couples.
The obligatory "gratuity" is usually for a large "group".
I have never heard 3 couples with seperate checks be identified as a group.
I do not see a D.A. taking the case seriously.

The stories I have read said the couple and 6 others were in the group.

I also wondered about them being handled as a group if they were separate checks?

[Poptart]

I agree the arrest is valid but the menu really should state "surcharge" rather than "gratuity" and I would not be surprised to see is immediately dismissed at court.


If they were charged a "surcharge" rather than a gratuity, then would people think they are still supposed to tip as well? I think they let it be known up front that it is a gratuity, so people won't double tip and/or be worried about trying to figure all that mess out for a large group.

[Poptart]

I'm not understanding "that loss".

A restaurant has tables. Two families of 4-each walk in. If they are together the restaurant pulls two tables together and one of the wait staff serves 8-people. If the two families walk in and are seated separately then the wait staff sill serves the same number of people.


So why would the wait staff be pulled off "other duties" to serve 1 group of 8 but not 2 groups of 4 each?

Whats the difference between serving two tables verses one larger table if the number of people are the same?


>>>>

There's a big difference in serving one big table, than there is in serving multiple tables. I waited tables all through college so I obviously have dealt with these situations. With a big table, it is more of a hassle because you have to deal with who ordered what on which ticket, who had the extra drinks, the person at the end of the table wants to pick up person #3 and #5 on their bill, etc. Not to mention having to "attempt" to get all the food prepared and out at the same time. Most of the problems with slow food or overdone/underdone orders have to do with the kitchen staff not getting all orders out at the same time. It is not the waiter's fault, yet they are the ones who get blamed. As far as those of you who think that just asking for separate bills, does not make you a "group", you are wrong. It is actually MORE of a pain to deal with those of you in a group who want separate checks, than to have just one bill. If anything, I think you should have to pay one bill and then YOU guys can figure out your nit-picky penny-pinching game of who owes who what amount, on your own time. Also, big groups tend to linger a lot longer than 2-tops or 4-tops, which means that you are losing money because you have no turnover. Give me 4 tables of 2 any day over one table of 8 (especially if tip is NOT included)!

Man, I haven't waited tables since 1993, but it seems just like yesterday!

[Gabby]

Putting the 'tip/gratuity' on the bill for larger groups is pretty common in restaurants. Large groups tend to take more effort than individual tables. They seldom leave much of a tip.

The fact is that wait staff make less than minium wage. They depend heavily on tips to earn a living. This is the norm in our society. If ya don't like tipping, don't go do restaurants that have wait staff... go to a self serve place. The wait staff is not there to work for free or close to free.

These 18% was clearly printed on the menu. By placing an order they agreed to pay the 18%. If they did not want to pay the tip, they could have gone somewhere else.

[Andrew_980]

I guess you dont go places with more than 8 people then. Its pretty standard in parties that large.

Very rarely, partly for this very reason.

[outfromunder]

I don't know the stats but I would bet most people don't give above the 18% that is already added to the bill.

Personally I would not slack off but that's just me. ;) Service has slacked off throughout my years of eating out. I don't know how many times I've had to ask for silverware more than once. It really ****es me off if I have to ask AGAIN after the wait staff sets my food in front of me. I really do not enjoy trying to figure out how to stir sugar into my coffee without a spoon, etc. while waiting for my meal.

I agree that service has deteriorated over the years. Having said that, my friends and I were treated the other day to wonderful service from a waitress. She was bubbly without being annoying, brought our chips and hotsauce out just as we got seated and drink orders taken quickly. The whole time we were there we and the other customers in her area were given proper attention. I was pleased with her attention and excitement of doing her job well. I will be asking for her again.

I firmly believe that some people dont fit the role in a service industry and need to find their niche. This waitress was clearly in her element.

[outfromunder]

Its ridiculous to raise a fuss over getting a mandatory tip added to the bill. If Im at a dinner with a large group and get bad service from the wait staff, then we pay the pill, leave and never go back. Chalk it up to experience. Getting arrested for this is stupid on the kids part.

[Rick Rhetoric]

The wait staff in almost all restaurants these days is hateful, callous and rude. And the more upscale the restaurant, the more snotty, independent and impolite the servers are.

The best and only way to deal with a surly, snippy, disrespectful wait staff is to be hateful, harsh, rude, insulting and disrespectful to them which immediately startles and puts them in an uneasy defensive mode. It is contrary to my nature to deal with people in such a manner, but a customer with a loud, belligerent, hostile, rude, assertive, aggressive and radioactive personality -- always commands muchisimo respect.

Treat everyone like they are campesinos (peasants) and they will treat you with the utmost respect and courtesy. Next time you deal with waiters or any sales person, try it.

[brody]

This is a good policy because it ensures that the person who provides bad service gets their tip the same as the one who provides good service. That's only fair.

[RTchoke]

Putting the 'tip/gratuity' on the bill for larger groups is pretty common in restaurants. Large groups tend to take more effort than individual tables. They seldom leave much of a tip.

The fact is that wait staff make less than minium wage. They depend heavily on tips to earn a living. This is the norm in our society. If ya don't like tipping, don't go do restaurants that have wait staff... go to a self serve place. The wait staff is not there to work for free or close to free.

These 18% was clearly printed on the menu. By placing an order they agreed to pay the 18%. If they did not want to pay the tip, they could have gone somewhere else.

The problem is being forced to pay a tip when you get crappy service. If you have to get up and get your own drink refills, get your own silverware, and then wait an hour for a salad and some wings...........yeah, that kind of service really deserves an 18% tip. /sarcasm off/

I don't care that they make minimum wage or less and live off tips. If that's the case they can get off their ass and EARN those tips instead of expecting me to subsidize their salary when they provide crappy service. I've been on both sides. I worked in a joint where you didn't get tips very often because people gave their pizza order at the counter and carried their drinks to the table themselves. We still waited on them hand and foot after that and cleaned their tables but we rarely got tipped. That was just the nature of the business.

[RTchoke]

I agree that service has deteriorated over the years. Having said that, my friends and I were treated the other day to wonderful service from a waitress. She was bubbly without being annoying, brought our chips and hotsauce out just as we got seated and drink orders taken quickly. The whole time we were there we and the other customers in her area were given proper attention. I was pleased with her attention and excitement of doing her job well. I will be asking for her again.

I firmly believe that some people dont fit the role in a service industry and need to find their niche. This waitress was clearly in her element.

Those type of servers get a very good tip from me. More than 20% usually. I also try to throw a word in with the management that that particular server was wonderful just as I would if someone were awful. :cool:

[DRS]

Yep, they knew when they sat down that the gratuity would be added, but what do you do if you get really bad service?

I just read some of the comment and someone said on the news it was mentioned that they were comped a bit because of not so good service.

Like John said, tips should be voluntary and not imposed, but I guess they do that because some people are cheap, but then LOL, do they have a right to do that?

I'm going back and forth LOL.

Complain you will pay for the service no matter what you are paying.

[RTchoke]

Complain you will pay for the service no matter what you are paying.

Not really. I've seen plenty of places where the manager will waive a surcharge if the party complains about the service. That is a pretty standard way of dealing with it.

[DRS]

Not really. I've seen plenty of places where the manager will waive a surcharge if the party complains about the service. That is a pretty standard way of dealing with it.

Yes they can waive it, what I meant is you will be billed for it (unless they waive it) instead of trying to not pay and putting yourself in this position. Once you eat the meal without saying anything you are saying I have no problem.

[RTchoke]

Yes they can waive it, what I meant is you will be billed for it (unless they waive it) instead of trying to not pay and putting yourself in this position. Once you eat the meal without saying anything you are saying I have no problem.

I see what you mean but still, the times I have seen this done is when the bill comes and you have finished your meal and bring it up with the manager at that point. Do you really think people get up in the middle of their meal and search out the manager and complain? Most don't. They don't want spit in their drink refill. :cool:

[FidelisAdMortem]

This is a good policy because it ensures that the person who provides bad service gets their tip the same as the one who provides good service. That's only fair.

I hope you're being sarcastic.

[RogerDodger]

The wait staff in almost all restaurants these days is hateful, callous and rude. And the more upscale the restaurant, the more snotty, independent and impolite the servers are.

The best and only way to deal with a surly, snippy, disrespectful wait staff is to be hateful, harsh, rude, insulting and disrespectful to them which immediately startles and puts them in an uneasy defensive mode. It is contrary to my nature to deal with people in such a manner, but a customer with a loud, belligerent, hostile, rude, assertive, aggressive and radioactive personality -- always commands muchisimo respect.

Treat everyone like they are campesinos (peasants) and they will treat you with the utmost respect and courtesy. Next time you deal with waiters or any sales person, try it.

I hope you check your food verrrrrry carefully before eating it.

[jdnynj]

I thought Restaurants were in the Hospitality Industry. What School of Hospitality management or whatever they call it, did this restaurant manager go to ?
The customer is always right, Esp if the service was even remotely Lackluster.
and arresting a paying customer ? you might as well just shut the doors. This is different from a NON paying customer ( like Randy Quaid who didnt pay like a $10K hotel Tab) , even Wal Mart will arrest you if you walk out without paying. But for a Gratuity ? You resolve the matter, no matter what it takes. What was the real cost here $13-16 ? Is that really worth the negative publicity?
Customers are allowed to be difficult, even if they are 100 % wrong, which clearly here there was a service problem.
Restaurant managers on the other hand are NOT allowed to make FOOLISH business decisions and RISK the entire operation. If this is a Corporation, he is toast. If its a Family business, this guy is a hard head and deserves to lose his entire business.
The legal aspects dont intrigue me as much as How someone could be SO stubborn to risk his Business for a $13 evaded tip. These people didnt run away, they were trying to make a POINT and they did.
Its the height of Arrogance on the part of the restaurant to have them arrested for it.

[gdoane]

I got into a discussion about tipping that kind of went awry.

The sales tax for restaurants around here is about 10%, so close to it as to make no nevermind, like a tenth of a percent or so.

So my standard practice is if I'm going to give a 20% tip and the bill is $11, $10 from the restaurant and $1 from the taxman, I tip $2 based on the restaurant bill, not the total bottom line. Why in the heck would I tip a waiter for taxes?

My reasoning is that I don't pay tax on the tip so why would I pay tip on the tax? I'm a Republican, I'm supposed to hate taxes. It's in the job description. I certainly don't want to support taxes by giving people bigger tips when taxes go up and I don't want to discourage lowering taxes by giving smaller tips if once in a blue moon taxes go down.

Anyway, I was involved in a dinner that had a substantial amount of taxes, about $10 worth as the meal was right around $100 for all in the party which is easy to do these days, and I did the thing I usually do, doubled the $10 tax on the $100 (plus $10 tax) bill and gave a $20 tip.

Which got me into a conversation that the tip shouldn't be $20 for such a bill, because the bottom line was $110 and I should be giving $22.

I'm related to liberals. I don't know how it happened, but it must involve recessive genes and brainwashing or something so I insisted that the tip was $20, NOT an extra $2 for the tax.

It's kind of silly, I mean $2 is no biggie in the grand scheme of things and it's just the difference between a 20% tip and a 22% tip, but it's the principle of the matter. That waitress is not a government worker so I ain't tipping for government work.

I wouldn't tip the IRS any 20% either. They make me fill out my own paperwork.

My liberal relative wound up tipping the extra $2 after I told him he can tip more if he wants with his own cash but I ain't gonna. I tip on the subtotal, not the total because nobody tips the taxman.

[traditional_woman]

When did it go from 15% to 20%?

[gdoane]

When did it go from 15% to 20%?

When the minimum wage was raised, it was NOT raised for tipped workers and in fact the tipped worker minimum wage remains $2.13 per hour, a wage which has not been increased since 1991 (when Bush41 was in office, BTW).

Liberals, the ones who make their passionate (but fake) arguments for "A LIVING WAGE" have left some people behind.

There has not been a raise in the minimum wage for tipped workers in over 18 years, so the only raise they've gotten is the increase in tips.

Yay Democrats, champions of the poor. (sarcasm)

[traditional_woman]

I will say they were wrong in not paying the mandatory grat, and it probably had more to do with them being cheap. For all we know they could have exaggerated the story to get out of paying. On the flip side, servers need to know this is not an industry conducive to supporting a family, or even supporting yourself without another means of income. We got a tongue lashing from a waitress b/c she thought we only left a $2 tip, but what she didn't know is we were going to add another 2 to our debit card. She walked off and exclaimed,(really loud so everyone could hear) WOW $2, CAN I GO HOME NOW! I wanted to say some not so choice things to her but instead I complained to the mgr. Not everyone is going to pay the 20% and if you go into waitressing thinking that, then that's on you.

We give 15% unless the service is REALLY on point. We had a server a few months back who was the best we've ever had. No waiting for drinks to be refilled, we didn't have to 'wait' for him to ask us about desert(i hate sittiing there 5-10 minutes after eating, without them asking if we want our check or desert, i've done my socializing before and during the meal),and i could go on and on, but long story short, he got above the 20percent!

[Tiberious]

I don't know how relevant it is to the topic, but the charges were dropped (http://www.nbcphiladelphia.com/news/local-beat/Theft-Charges-Dropped-Against-No-Tip-Couple--71865807.html).

I think the DA made the right call. If the service was that horrendous and/or absent, then they shouldn't be obligated to pay that amount.

To avoid something like this in the future, the pub (or any business with such a policy) should change that to calculating a recommended tip (based on the 15/18/20% they use now) and putting it there as a handy guide. Hell, do one better and divide that to a per-person share.

Yes, it does suck that some larger groups like that will stiff the waiters, but an ******* is an *******, and he'd stiff 'em if they were alone as well. But just remember, potential *******s out there, the staff will remember who the good ones are, and they'll get extra effort. You'll get the bare minimum, or worse if they have no scruples.

[Poptart]

I don't know how relevant it is to the topic, but the charges were dropped (http://www.nbcphiladelphia.com/news/local-beat/Theft-Charges-Dropped-Against-No-Tip-Couple--71865807.html).

I think the DA made the right call. If the service was that horrendous and/or absent, then they shouldn't be obligated to pay that amount.

To avoid something like this in the future, the pub (or any business with such a policy) should change that to calculating a recommended tip (based on the 15/18/20% they use now) and putting it there as a handy guide. Hell, do one better and divide that to a per-person share.

Yes, it does suck that some larger groups like that will stiff the waiters, but an ******* is an *******, and he'd stiff 'em if they were alone as well. But just remember, potential *******s out there, the staff will remember who the good ones are, and they'll get extra effort. You'll get the bare minimum, or worse if they have no scruples.

I think the pub should just call it a mandatory surcharge from here on out. Then the cheap jerks will not get off the hook next time.

[Apatriot]

I was kidding when I said 3 couples.
The obligatory "gratuity" is usually for a large "group".
I have never heard 3 couples with seperate checks be identified as a group.
I do not see a D.A. taking the case seriously.

Recently I was in a restaurant where two families of 4 were considered a group. But this restaurant is infamous for it's service. They have enough problems serving 4 at a time.

[Apatriot]

When did it go from 15% to 20%?

I'm convinced it's a conspiracy in order to shame people to tip better.

[captusa]

I got into a discussion about tipping that kind of went awry.

The sales tax for restaurants around here is about 10%, so close to it as to make no nevermind, like a tenth of a percent or so.

........
In NYS the tax is listed on the bill (8.75%).
The way to figure tips was to take 10% of the bill and add half.
Now SOP is to double the tax so the lazy tipper is tipping 17.5% instead of 15%%.
I go to Dizzy's Coca-Cola Club in Lincoln Center.
There is a $30-$50 charge per set and a minimum billed after each set.
I tip far more than 15% of the bar bill because I was known there and received excellent service.
I never consider the music charge in calculating the tip.(and of course not the tax)

[captusa]

I got into a discussion about tipping that kind of went awry.

The sales tax for restaurants around here is about 10%, so close to it as to make no nevermind, like a tenth of a percent or so.

So my standard practice is if I'm going to give a 20% tip and the bill is $11, $10 from the restaurant and $1 from the taxman, I tip $2 based on the restaurant bill, not the total bottom line. Why in the heck would I tip a waiter for taxes?

My reasoning is that I don't pay tax on the tip so why would I pay tip on the tax? I'm a Republican, I'm supposed to hate taxes. It's in the job description. I certainly don't want to support taxes by giving people bigger tips when taxes go up and I don't want to discourage lowering taxes by giving smaller tips if once in a blue moon taxes go down.

Anyway, I was involved in a dinner that had a substantial amount of taxes, about $10 worth as the meal was right around $100 for all in the party which is easy to do these days, and I did the thing I usually do, doubled the $10 tax on the $100 (plus $10 tax) bill and gave a $20 tip.

Which got me into a conversation that the tip shouldn't be $20 for such a bill, because the bottom line was $110 and I should be giving $22.

I'm related to liberals. I don't know how it happened, but it must involve recessive genes and brainwashing or something so I insisted that the tip was $20, NOT an extra $2 for the tax.

It's kind of silly, I mean $2 is no biggie in the grand scheme of things and it's just the difference between a 20% tip and a 22% tip, but it's the principle of the matter. That waitress is not a government worker so I ain't tipping for government work.

I wouldn't tip the IRS any 20% either. They make me fill out my own paperwork.

My liberal relative wound up tipping the extra $2 after I told him he can tip more if he wants with his own cash but I ain't gonna. I tip on the subtotal, not the total because nobody tips the taxman.

Giving a waitress an extra $2 does not make you a liberal tipper.

[CaffeineHat]

I worked in a busy, college place when I was in grad school that had the same policy, clearly stated. Sorry to say that big groups tend to be more taxing on the staff.

If they had to get their own stuff because the staff was shirking THAT was the time to bring the manager into the mix. When you do that, reasonably, most managers will kick in a discount or take things off the final tab.

But to sit there the entire night, suck it up, get angry and then decide not to honor the terms put forth clearly and concisely on the menu, sorry folks that's theft of services. If you don't like the mandatory 18% for large parties, don't eat there. If you go ahead and order and the service SUCKS, TELL SOMEONE!!. But don't take matters into your own hands and then gripe when the establishment exercises their legal right to arrest you.

I hate to say it here, but the 18% is a service charge for a larger group, not a gratuity or a tip. And if you don't want to leave more, don't. But remember that in most places the entire staff has to split tips.

I went to a place recently with my wife and kids and it was a college football night or something. They were swimming in people, dinner took 50 minutes to be served and we had to wait an extra 15 for clean silverware. I went to the manager and he gave me a "VIP" discount of 40% on the spot. I didn't even have to ask for it, I just told him what was going on.

[Poptart]

Recently I was in a restaurant where two families of 4 were considered a group. But this restaurant is infamous for it's service. They have enough problems serving 4 at a time.

Why wouldn't they be considered a group? What difference does it make that they are 2 families of four? That still equals to eight people sitting together. What if it were one family of eight? That would be a group. What if it were a family of 6 and another couple (two)? That would be eight people and a "group".

[FidelisAdMortem]

I think the pub should just call it a mandatory surcharge from here on out. Then the cheap jerks will not get off the hook next time.

If by cheap, you mean expecting reasonable service in return for a trip for that service, than I will agree with you.

If you believe one should receive a good tip for poor service/attitude then I cannot agree with you.